Daniel and Kelly’s Extraordinary Universe - Are Wormholes Real?

Episode Date: February 14, 2019

Are wormholes a real thing out in space somewhere? Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. If a baby is giggling in the back seat, they're probably happy. If a baby is crying in the back seat, they're probably hungry. But if a baby is sleeping in the back seat, will you remember they're even there? When you're distracted, stressed, or not usually the one who drives them, the chances of forgetting them in the back seat are much higher. It can happen to anyone. Parked cars get hot fast and can be deadly.

So get in the habit of checking the back seat when you leave. The message from NHTSA and the Ad Council. Have you ever wished for a change but weren't sure how to make it? Maybe you felt stuck in a job, a place, or even a relationship. I'm Emily Tish Sussman, and on She Pivots, I dive into the inspiring pivots of women who have taken big leaps in their lives and careers. I'm Gretchen Whitmer, Jody, Sweetie. Monica Patton, Elaine Welteroth. Learn how to get comfortable pivoting because your life is going to be full of them.

Listen to these women and more on She Pivots, now on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Tune in to All the Smoke Podcast, where Matt and Stacks sit down with former first lady, Michelle Obama. Folks find it hard to hate up close. And when you get to know people, you're sitting in their kitchen tables, and they're talking like we're talking, you know, you hear our story, how we grew up, how I grew up, and you get a chance for people to unpack and get beyond race.

All the Smoke featuring Michelle Obama. To hear this podcast and more, open your free iHeartRadio app. Search all the smoke and listen now. Hey, Daniel, so we did an episode about teleportation, whether it's possible to go from one point in space to another point in space instantly. That's right, without actually moving through space. And the episode was very popular, but we got a ton of comments on Twitter. and the Facebook's about something we may have missed.

That's right. A lot of people commented that we didn't talk about one possible way, one important possible way, to move to another part of the universe very rapidly. Yeah. Like there's a loophole in the laws of the universe, perhaps. I don't think this counts as a loophole. I don't think it counts as teleportation,

but we'll dig into it. Hi, I'm Jorge, and I'm Daniel. Welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge, Explain the Universe. In which a physicist and a cartoonist try to take the universe apart, break it into a piece that you can understand, and download them one at a time into your brain. Today on the episode, we're going to talk about a podcast. Possible loophole in the laws of physics. Wormhole. A lot of people commented when we talked about teleportation

that wormholes might be another way to get from one place in space to another place in space without actually moving through space. And I'm going to take issue with that. That, yeah, wormholes might let you move rapidly from one place in space to another, but it's not technically teleportation. But we'll dig into that in a moment. So, yeah, wormholes, they're kind of the basis of one of my favorite movie, sci-fi movies,

which is contact. Don't say interstellar. Okay, good. Yeah. Contact. Interesting. Why is Contact your favorite movie? It's one of my favorite movies.

It's such a great, well-made movie. The storyline is great, and it's just kind of this great character portrait of Jody Foster's character, kind of searching for answers out there in the universe. Yeah, it's also one of my favorite. movies because it touches on a bunch of really interesting themes. First of all, of course, it's fascinating to potentially get a message from outer space. It's like everybody's dream, right? But the other thing I really like about that, movie is that it shows the process,

that a lot of the excitement of the plot is in unraveling the message, right? You don't just get the message and boom, you understand it. It's like in English, and it makes perfect sense. It's a puzzle, and they have to figure it out and think about it, and then it clicks into place, and all of a sudden this gibberish turns into physics and math. And to me, that was really excited. and you see that process played out. Yeah. And I liked how, you know, it's based on a book written by Carl Sagan.

I do know that, yes. Yeah. And so he really thought about the whole process of, like, if we had to build this giant machine from a message from aliens, how would that happen? You know, what sort of international corporations or organizations and how would the engineering be done?

And he really thought through all these kind of interesting political details. Yeah, I think Carl Sagan probably spent a lot of time thinking about how to talk to aliens and how to respond if they talk to us and all sorts of stuff. I bet that dude smoked a lot of banana peels and had a lot of deep thoughts on the topic.

ate a lot of bananas, mean, right? Probably ate a lot of bananas as well. That's why he was so smart. I don't think that puts you in the same frame of mind as smoking the peels, but it's probably helpful. Yeah. But anyways, in that movie, Jody Foster's character goes to another galaxy through a wormhole.

Sorry, I may have spoiled the plot, but they build a machine, it takes her through a wormhole and she travels to another part of the universe with through it. I think it's okay to spoil the plot of 20 year old movies at this point, Jorge. You don't need to never talk about that movie. I think it's all right. Yeah. Yeah, in that movie they have like this intergalactic network. It's like a subway system where you can like zip from one place to the other in order to get around. And it's like sort of a common trope that's like the thinking of humans as new on the scene and then maybe somebody else in the galaxy's already built this

incredible infrastructure. And it's a common way that science fiction writers approach this problem of we are so isolated. We're so far from everybody else. How could we possibly have either an interstellar civilization of just humans or interact with and live with and develop with and talk to and communicate with aliens and other star systems when everything is so dang far apart? Yeah. So wormholes is kind of one way you could do it, at least in science fiction, is have these

tunnels through space that connect really far away points. That's right. Typically you do either fast-in-the-light travel or warp speed or wormholes, right? And so we've covered two of those already, and so it's time to dig into wormholes. Let's try to jump into the hole. Let's warm our way into this holy topic. Well, as usual, we were wondering how many of you out there knew what a warm hole was and whether or not they're real.

That's right. So I walked around and I asked a bunch of random people, one of whom was my wife, if they knew what wormholes were and if they thought they were a real thing out there in space, or just sort of an idea in the head of science fiction authors. So those of you listening, think about it for a second. Do you think wormholes are real?

And do you know what they are? Here's what people had to say. And the question was if that would be possible. It's a real thing? Do they exist out there in space somewhere? I don't think so. No. Yeah, that seems something like I would see

in a sci-fi movie. But, yeah, I don't think they're a real thing. All right. I think so, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, all right. I believe it's a distinct possibility. I will not say for sure that it is or if it isn't, but I do believe the possibility remains open

that there is a way to traverse through space. No. Why not? I don't know. They just have this sci-fi sheen about them. Probably, maybe. I'm a chemical engineer, so it's not really my field, but it's possible.

In this case, I think a lot of people seem to have heard about wormholes. Like, almost nobody said, what? What's a wormhole? And a lot of people believe that they exist. And a lot of people believe that scientists will be able to make them. Yeah, a lot of people seem to know them from science fiction. Like, it's kind of a well-known science fiction idea and used a lot in science fiction. Yeah, it's a common trope to solve that problem with your plot having people spread all over the galaxy. and so it's definitely something we should talk about

because it's something that's out there. So I wonder if that's a thing. Like if you show it enough in science fiction, eventually people will think it's just an engineering problem. Oh, I thought you were going to say something else. If it appears in science fiction often enough, does it become real? That would be pretty cool, right?

If things that we write into novels eventually turn out to be reality because they were written into novels, that would be a cool sci-fi novel right there. Yeah, well, sort of in a way. I mean, it's sort of, it becomes possible in the minds of people. And so engineers then go like, hey, what will we need to make this happen?

And so then you kind of have to believe that it's possible before you can try to do it, right? That's right. It might seem like a bit of a stretch, but I definitely include science fiction authors in the sort of spectrum of intellectuals who are responsible for creating the future. You know, in my mind, it goes from science fiction authors who do whatever they need to do to get inspired and think of crazy ways that technology might change our society. society, to physicists who think, is that at all possible, like, even technically, like, could even ever happen?

And once physicists sign off on it, then, yeah, it gets dumped on the engineers. They're like, make it so. Yeah, but science fiction authors also have to know the science, right? Like, they can't just say, like, hey, here's a pink unicorn that makes helps you travel to space. Oh, man. I don't know how much science fiction you read for. You have to sound science-y.

I read a lot of science fiction, and a lot of it doesn't sound science-y at all. I just said they have to read signs, not understand signs. So what is a wormhole? A wormhole is a connection between two parts of space that otherwise seem very distant, okay? And it's not a teleportation. It's not like I'm here in Los Angeles and I want to go to New York and I disappear from Los Angeles

and then I appear in New York. That's teleportation with you. You appear in another place in space without actually moving through space. A wormhole is a very different solution. A wormhole says, can we create a connection between L.A. and New York? And I'm not talking about Elon Musk underground tunnels or anything crazy. I'm saying, can you bring those two parts of space close together? Can you connect them so that you are still moving through space, but that the distance is very short?

Right. So what does it mean to connect two points that are distant to each other? meaning like I'm here in Pasadena and next to me is another point in space so I can move to that point in space but you're saying that my point in space that I'm in right now could also potentially be connected to another point far away from here.

That's right. And to understand this, you need to relax a little bit your concept of what space is. If you're thinking of space as like emptiness, like the backdrop, the stage on which the theater of the universe takes place, that's an old idea and it makes a lot of sense based on your, experience, right? That's how it seems to work. But that's, but we have a more modern idea of

space now. Space can do all sorts of weird things that nothingness or emptiness or a backdrop can do, right? And most importantly, space can bend. Space has a shape. Okay. Now this is a very confusing topic for a lot of people to get their minds around. Meaning that space is not rigid, you know, like a big empty warehouse that just, it's there and it's fixed and it's square. You're saying space is more like, I think the idea is more like spaces like the ocean, you know, like it's like we're swimming in water and this thing can kind of squish and bend and flow and push you in different directions. That's right. The ocean is a useful analogy because it tells you that the space can do all sorts of interesting things and that we're embedded in it and it's

not an emptiness. It's a thing. It's a physical thing with behaviors, right? And a very common way to think about the bending of space is to think about the bending of space in a higher dimension. And typically people use a two-dimensional analogy. Now, this analogy is flawed for one very important reason, which I'll tell you after we're done with the analogy, but it is still helpful in thinking about how space can move. So typically people think about space in two dimensions so that then they can think about the bending of space in three dimensions. Because it's really hard to think in four dimensions, right? So bending of three-dimensional space in four dimensions is hard. So let's just start with two. So imagine your typical notion of two-dimensional

space might be like a rubber sheet okay and then we think about the bending of that space is it bending in the third dimension like you put a heavy ball on the rubber sheet what happens well the sheet bends right or you can imagine twisting a rubber sheet or or folding a rubber sheet over right if you fold a rubber sheet over then two parts which would be far apart if you moved along the sheet could be very close to each other in that third dimension right or if you roll it up right Imagine rolling up a two-dimensional sheet of space. Then you have like a toilet paper roll, a toilet paper universe in which parts of the sheet are touching other parts of the sheet that are outside or inside on the roll, and then they're actually very close to each other.

Oh, you mean like I can walk forward for a long time, and I think I'm going straight, but really I'm going around and around this toilet paper. That's right. And a wormhole would be a connection that's not along the paper. It would be a more complex connection. It would be a connection from one roll around to the next role, to the inner roll, or to the more outer roll. Or if you imagine just a simple rubber sheet where you're folding it like a taco,

it would be a connection between the two sides of the taco. And you could go the long way around by moving along the sheet, but a wormhole would be a more unusual connection. It would be a connection that sort of shortcuts. And space can do these things, right? We know that space is more complicated than just emptiness, and it has a shape. And that shape can be complicated, right?

It can bend, it can stretch, it can wiggle, it can ripple. They can also just have strange connections to it, right? You can connect two parts of space that are distant along one path, and you can make them very close together on other paths. Right. I thought of a great analogy. You know how you, when you're in IKEA? Does that have to do with the banana?

Almost. It's yellow. You know how when you're in IKEA and you're walking along and you're watching all the furniture and stuff, And then suddenly you come upon, like, here, here's a shortcut to bedding or here's a shortcut to kitchen. And it's like, you're like, what? What's going on? It's like the IKEA takes you in a path that curves around. Every once in a while, you can cut through some of these folds of your path.

That's sort of like what a wormhole is, right? That's exactly right. And some times when I'm in IKEA, I really wish I had a wormhole to just get me out of here immediately and send me home. Oh, my God. Well, they really do kind of distort your space time in there so that you never leave. It's like a casino. There are no outside windows. You can't tell if you've been there for 10 minutes or 10 hours.

Yeah. It's sort of a nightmare. No, that's a perfect analogy. And it shows you how there can be two paths to get to the same place, right? A long one and a short one. Yeah. And the thing that's tricky for people to understand is how this space can be bent. And the problem with the analogy we talked about earlier,

bending of two-dimensional space in the third dimension, right? It's that third dimension that helps you get from one place to the other because the bending is in that third dimension. So you have to be able to move. in that third dimension or connect space in that third dimension. The problem with that analogy is that we don't think our three-dimensional space is embedded in some four-dimensional space, right? The bending of space is not in some other higher fourth dimension.

It's intrinsic. Right. Okay, rather than extrinsic, it's intrinsic. It's the relationship between points in space. It's not that space itself is embedded in some four-dimensional space that's twisting it like a 3D rubber sheet, right? It's all about the relationship between points in space. Right.

But I guess the weird thing is to think about these forks in the road, right? Like in IKEA, I'm walking around, walking forward, and suddenly I have two options. I can keep going on the loopy path, or I can take the shortcut to the next loop, right? That's right. And so what does it mean to connect something in space for us? Does that mean that I can either move to the side of myself or I can move a bazillion light years away if I move in a special direction, what does that mean to have two points connected

that are actually far away? It just means that there's two different paths with two different lengths to the same place, right? When you say that other point is a bazillion light year was away, yeah, it's a bazillion light years away if you move through flat space, right? If you sort of like point yourself in that direction and go, right? But there can be another path that's shorter, right?

But how do I choose those paths? Like, how do I choose to take the shortcut or not the shortcut? Well, there has to be a connection there, and that's what the wormhole is, right? A wormhole is that kind of connection. It's a connection between two parts of space, which otherwise are far apart, to make them actually closer. And that's why earlier I was saying it's not teleportation. You're still just moving through space. If we define teleportation as moving to another location without moving through space,

then a wormhole is not teleportation because you're still moving through space. You've just shrunk the distance you have to travel by bringing those two things closer together, by creating a path between them that's short. And the only way this is possible is if space can do these weird things, if space can twist and bend and have bizarre shapes to it. I see. You're saying teleportation is more like you disappear from here and you appear over there.

But traveling through a wormhole is basically just still traveling. You're still moving. It just so happens to be a shortcut. That's right. It's like if you say, hey, can you teleport something from the fridge to the couch? and I, like, you know, make a lasso and I drag the fridge over to the couch and I'm like, hey, look, I don't have to get off the couch

to get something out of the fridge anymore. That's not really teleportation, right? I've just brought the destination closer to me so that I can reach it without getting off the couch. Right. Although for me, either way, you did it for me, so I'm happy. You're like, I don't care about the details. Just get me that drink.

Get me up my next banana. Right. I don't pay you to bother me with the details. Yeah, and so it's a semantic distinction. I don't really usually care about semantic distinctions, but a lot of people were curious about why we didn't talk about wormholes in the teleportation episode, and that's why, because in my mind, it's not really teleportation. I see.

Also, it's actually maybe possible, whereas teleportation is, like, you know, much more difficult. I see. You're being a physics lawyer. Yes, I was being a physicist. That's sort of my job. This is his lawyer. Before we keep going, let's take a short break. I'm Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, and in session 421 of therapy for black girls, I sit down with Dr. Athea and Billy Shaka to explore how our hair connects to our identity, mental health, and the ways we heal.

Because I think hair is a complex language system, right, in terms of it can tell how old you are, your marital status, where you're from, you're a spiritual belief. But I think with social media, there's like a hyperfixation and observation of our hair, right? That this is sometimes, the first thing someone sees when we make a post or a reel is how our hair is styled. We talk about the important role hairstylists play in our community, the pressure to always look put together, and how breaking up with perfection can actually free us. Plus, if you're someone who gets anxious about flying, don't miss Session 418 with Dr. Angela Neil Barnett,

where we dive into managing flight anxiety. Listen to therapy for black girls on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the psychology podcast. Here's a clip from an upcoming conversation about exploring human potential. I was going to schools to try to teach kids these skills, and I get eye rolling from teachers or I get students who would be like, it's easier to punch someone in the face. When you think about emotion regulation, like you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy

which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome as a result of it, if it's going to be beneficial to you. Because it's easy to say, like, go you, go blank yourself, right? It's easy. It's easy to just drink the extra beer. It's easy to ignore, to suppress, seeing a colleague who's bothering you and just, like, walk the other way. Avoidance is easier.

Ignoring is easier. Denials is easier. Drinking is easier. Yelling, screaming is easy. Complex problem solving, meditating, you know, takes effort. Listen to the psychology podcast on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Don't let biased algorithms or degree screens or exclusive professional networks or stereotypes.

Don't let anything keep you from discovering the half of the workforce who are stars. Workers skilled through alternative routes rather than a bachelor's degree. It's time to tear the paper ceiling and see the stars beyond it. Find out how you can make stars part of your talent strategy at tear the paper sealing.org. by Opportunity at Work and the Ad Council. So, yeah, so that's a wormhole. It's like when you short-circuit two points in space. That's right.

Yeah. You create a path between them, a short path between two points that are otherwise really far apart. That's what a wormhole is, yeah. So this seems really fantastical. Is this real? Is this actually based on the losses? physics that this is possible? It's an amazing idea, right? And the craziest thing about it is that

it does follow the laws of physics. If you brought this concept to the international or the intergalactic or the universal court of physics, they would say, yeah, that's allowed. Whoa. What does that mean? Yeah. How can the laws of physics allow this? Well, you know, it violates our intuition, and it seems really odd, but a lot of things in the universe violate our intuition and seem odd. And Those are the most fun things, right? Those are the things that make physics so interesting. But we say that it's theoretically allowed because we figured out some rules of the universe, right? We watch the universe.

We watch apples fall off trees. We see balls moving through the air. We watch planets go around suns. And we observe various things. And then we develop laws that describe them, right? So in this case, we're talking about general relativity, right? Einstein's field equations that say, here are the rules of how space can be bent. Now, remember, general relativity described.

gravity and gravity is not a force like other forces in that we have like a quantum mechanical description of little particles being sent back and forth to transmit the force as far as we know gravity is a bending of space and so general relativity tells us what are the rules for bending space and there's a list of rules right space can do this space can do that space can do the other thing so when we say it's something theoretically allowed what we mean is does it follow those rules right And so the rules say that you can bend space so much that it comes around and kind of touches itself again. That's right. Wormholes satisfy those equations.

According to those equations, wormholes are allowed. Now, that doesn't mean that worms' holes exist, right? It means that they are allowed. It's like saying, you know, before anybody had ever built a Tesla, you might say, well, do the laws of physics prevent anyone from building this awesome car? They can go 200 miles an hour and look really cool. And you might say, yeah, the laws of physics allow it, but nobody had ever built a Tesla before, right? In the same way, wormholes are allowed by the laws of physics, but that doesn't mean necessarily that there are any, right? And black holes were also in this category for a long time, right?

Like, we thought black holes were possible, but we had never absurd one or seen evidence of one. That's right. Black holes were just theoretical for a long time, and it came about exactly the same way. People were playing with the Einstein equations and saying, well, what's the weirdest? thing we can get space to do, right? Well, can you do this? Can it do that? Can you do this other thing? And they found all these solutions to the equations, right? A solution to the equation is a description of space that follows all those rules. And from the case of black holes, they figured out, oh, if you have a really, really dense object, then you get this bizarre thing in space called a black

hole. And it was decades before anybody actually observed one. It was for a long time, people didn't know, is this just theoretical? I mean, is this right? Or is it something that's actually real or is it just, you know, is it proof that the equations are wrong, right? It sort of seems like a bizarre, nonsensical prediction of the equations. And that's the kind of thing we're always doing in physics. We're saying, let's take the equations we have, let's see what they predict, and let's go out and look to see if we can spot that, because if we can spot it, it means probably more likely that the equations are right.

And if we can't, then it means more likely the equations are wrong. And we keep finding these weird predictions of general relativity that turn out to be true. black holes, gravitational waves. So when you say it connects two points together in space, like a shortcut, is it only a point or is it could it be like a region of space is connected to another region of space? Or does it only work for little tiny points? That's a great question. There's a few different varieties of wormholes.

Most of them, the opening is super duper tiny. And so if anything could even go through it, it would have to be like a single particle or a single photon or something. But there are some theories of wormholes where it could be bigger, you know, big enough for you to pass through or drive your car through so you wouldn't have to sit on the 405 in traffic. Right. Well, what's the difference between these two types of theories?

Like, how can one predict a whole big tunnel? Well, in a lot of conceptions, a wormhole is sort of like a hole in space. It's like a if you actually found one, it would be like a 3D object, right? Not a 2D object. It would be like a sphere. Okay. And if you went into that sphere, then you would appear in another place in space. space, right?

You would, space is connected through that sphere, right? So it'd be like a really strange door, right? And you look at the sphere, you can see what's in that other part of space. And so it's more than just a point that can be larger. And so in theory, you could, you know, go through them. But we can talk about that in a moment, about the practicalities of making a wormhole and the limitations of them. So wormholes are theoretically possible.

That's right. So there's nothing in the laws of physics to say, wormholes cannot exist. And that's just because space can do these weird things, right? It can do all these. It can twist. It can bend. It can be strangely connected.

You can only have a wormhole where space has kind of bent around and into itself, right? And then when the space kind of touches itself again, that's where the wormhole can happen. It's not like an actual tunnel that goes from one part of the toilet paper to another part of the toilet paper. It's like it's when space kind of touches itself again, right? That's right. You'd be traveling no distance, right? One side of the wormhole is exactly the same as the other side of the wormhole.

You know, there's not like a tunnel where, like, flashing lights and crazy stuff is happening. It would be, as you pass through it, you're on one side of it, and instantly you're on the other side. It's like zero length. Well, boy, that sounds great. So you don't have to pack any snacks. If that was that of the goal of your question. You just have to pack some worms just in case. You need to go fishing on the other side.

That might be helpful. But yeah, they sound great. They sound like it would cut down our travel time to other stars and like you could just step through it and you wouldn't need to pack a lot or have a lot of protection in a space suit or spaceship, right? Sounds pretty good. It does sound pretty good. And so for those folks out there who are now like Googling how to travel to wormholes or, you know, looking on kayak to book your wormhole ticket, maybe we should bring them down a notch and talk about whether wormholes, how wormholes work in reality. All right, so unfortunately, I have a long list of reasons here why you will never go through a wormhole. Wait, me in particular or anyone?

You in particular. I'm focusing on you, Horan. Everything I do is about you. I'm just too, I'm not skinny enough to fit through one. Is that what you're trying to tell me? You've been eating too many bananas, I've noticed. No, problem number one is that nobody's ever found a wormhole. Right? So we don't know if there are any out there. And problem number one, A, is that even if wormholes are theoretically possible, we don't know how to make one, right? Option one is find a wormhole and go in it and see where you end up, right? That's sort of like just getting on a random plane at the airport

and having no idea if you're going to Buenos Aires or, you know, Singapore. Right. Well, I guess the question is, how would you find one? Like, what would you look for? Yeah, so, well, how would you find a wormhole? It would be pretty tough, right? You'd need to sort of spot it the way we spotted black holes, right? We spotted black holes by noticing that there was this black spot in space where if something passed behind it, it would disappear, and no light was coming out from it.

So for a wormhole, you'd need to see things going into it, right? But then it might just look like a black hole. So you'd need to see the other side also, and you need to see something coming out of it. So you need to see, like, particle A going in, and then that same particle coming out the other side. That'd be pretty tricky. You might find one edge of a wormhole and just think it's a black hole. Until you found the other side One side of the wormhole

Just looks like a black hole That's right In fact a lot of the theories of wormholes Start from black holes They say that I am Because a wormhole and a black hole are very similar Right They both suck things in

And then they constrict space down To a very narrow spot The space is very dense inside them And so one side of a wormhole Could just look like a black hole Oh wormholes do the same thing as black holes they look like a little, like they pinch space around them, like they contract space leading up to the hole.

Exactly. Oh. Exactly. And you can think of a wormhole sort of like, imagine whatever visualization you're using for a black hole in your head. Now put two of those together with the little pinchy parts touch. And you had a sort of flares, it like zooms in and then flares out again. And sort of, and on one side you have a black hole.

And the other side, you have this thing called a white hole. Ooh. Which is sort of the opposite of a black hole. and we should do like a whole podcast episode on white holes. But what you should know about white holes is that you can't enter a white hole, but stuff can leave. So it's sort of the opposite of a black hole in that sense. Now, no white hole has ever been seen. It's just a theoretical concept.

But if a wormhole really did exist, it would be a black hole paired with a white hole. Oh, it's one directional. You can't use a wormhole two ways. Not that we're aware of, right? So that's problem number two is that wormholes are a one-way trip. And so you might go into it, come out in Alpha Centauri, and be like, wow, I forgot to pack my underwear, and now it's too late.

It's too late. You're going commander for the rest of your galactic existence. That's right. But there are deeper problems with wormholes. Problem number three is that wormholes, as far as we theoretically understand them, are very short-lived. So if a wormhole is created,

the equations of general relativity tell us that that pinching point would last very, very briefly, and then it would snap, and then you would just end up with a black hole and a white hole separated. What do you mean they would be connected? That general relativity doesn't like having, it's not a stable solution. It's not something which can exist and not change through time. The equations of general relativity say that space doesn't like to be connected that way for very long.

It's not the lowest energy configuration. And so if wormhole is created by whatever means, then a space would relax by separating back into a black hole and a white hole. Wait, so wormholes are not. permanent. Like this curvature, you're talking about a space and space looping on itself. It's constantly moving and changing. That's right. It's like a gravitational wave, right? It's not a permanent fixture in space. It's a wiggle. And so wormholes are like that. Wormholes can be created, though we don't know how, but they can be described by the equation of general relativity, but they don't last very long. They're very short-lived. They're like, you know, momentarily existing.

Oh, boy. Yeah, that's a problem. So we can't find them and they don't last for very long. That's right. But some clever physicists thought up a way to maybe make wormholes last a little longer. I have so many questions for you, but before we dive in, let's take a short break. I'm Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, and in session 421 of therapy for black girls, I sit down with Dr. Ophia and Billy Shaka to explore how our hair connects to our identity, mental health, and the ways we heal. Because I think hair is a complex language system, right, in terms of it can tell how old

you are, your marital status, where you're from, you're a spiritual belief. But I think with social media, there's like a hyperfixation and observation of our hair. Right, that this is sometimes the first thing someone sees when we make a post or a reel is how our hair

is styled. We talk about the important role hairstyles play in our community, the pressure to always look put together, and how breaking up with perfection can actually free us. Plus, if you're someone who gets anxious about flying, don't miss session 418 with Dr. Angela Neil Barnett, where we dive into managing flight anxiety. Listen to therapy for black girls on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the Psychology Podcast. Here's a clip from an upcoming conversation about exploring human potential. I was going to schools to try to teach kids these skills. And I get eye rolling from teachers or I get students who would be like, it's easier to punch someone in the face. When you think about emotion regulation, like, you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy, which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome as a result of it, if it's going to be beneficial to you. Because it's easy to say, like, go you go blank yourself, right? It's easy. It's easy to just drink the extra beer.

It's easy to ignore, to suppress, seeing a colleague who's bothering you and just like walk the other way. Avoidance is easier. Ignoring is easier. Denial is easier. Drinking is easier. Yelling, screaming is easy. Complex problem solving, meditating, you know, takes effort. Listen to the psychology podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. How serious is youth vaping? Irreversible lung damage serious. One in 10 kids vape serious, which warrants a serious conversation from a serious parental figure. Like yourself, not the seriously know-at-all sports dad or the seriously smart podcaster. It requires a serious conversation that is best had by you. No, seriously.

The best person to talk to your child about vaping is you. To start the conversation, visit talk about vaping.org. Brought to you by the American Lung Association and the Ad Council. First of all, can we make wormholes? theoretically possible? Like, can we build something that would make one? We have no idea. I mean, we know that the equations of general relativity allow them, but we don't know how to make a wormhole. But if we did find it a wormhole, before it collapsed, some physicists worked out a way to make it last longer for it to be stable.

All you need to do is stuff it filled with a huge amount of exotic matter, which is something we've never seen before and don't know if it exists. But if you could create a huge amount of it and stuff it inside a wormhole, then theoretically you might be able to stabilize the wormhole. Now exotic matter is this weird stuff that has negative mass. And you need something with negative mass because it would have sort of the opposite gravitational effect of normal mass. Normal mass pulls stuff together. Negative mass would be pushing stuff apart. So if you stuff that inside the wormhole, it would sort of hold it open. So if you could find this special impossible mass

and you could also find a wormhole and you could throw it in there it might keep the wormhole open for more than an instant. That's right. That's right. But I wouldn't go in there with your kids on the guessing of a bunch of physicists. You'd throw some bananas in there first. That's right. And, you know, the other problem with wormholes

is they might be super duper small, right? Even these wormholes we're talking about could be like plank length size, like 10 to the minus 35 meters wide. Wait, do you mean like, the size of something that would fit in a wormhole is that small. That's right. We don't really know, but some theories say that wormholes would have to be super duper tiny if they exist at all, right?

So that's another disappointing fact. And also the idea about stuffing it full of exotic matter, that would hold the wormhole open, but it would also mean you can't go through it because as soon as any sort of normal matter went through it, it would disrupt it, and then the wormhole would collapse. So it might be that the wormholes exist, and it might be that you can hold them open with exotic matter, but then you couldn't go through them, which makes them sort of pointless. Because as soon as you go in,

it would close. Yeah, exactly. As soon as you go in, then it would collapse. Oh, so like your toes might make it through, but then it'll collapse and then you don't have any toes. That's right. That's right. And then we haven't even talked about, like,

the dangers of approaching anything that looks like a black hole. I mean, the gravitational forces are tremendous. You get anywhere close to a black hole, you're not going to get into it. You're going to get shredded by the tidal forces before you get very close. So there's a lot of practical problems with using a wormhole.

Wow. But it's so weird. Why are wormholes one directional? That's one thing I didn't quite get. How does the universe decide which way's in and which ways out? Well, that's a good question. I don't know. We don't know how to make them, so we don't know what process determines their directionality.

Yeah, it's a good question. But the physics say, the math says that they are one directional. That's right. And so let me add an important qualifier. We've been saying this whole time that they are theoretically possible. That's true according to general relativity. General relativity, as far as we know it, is true. But we also know that general relativity is not quantum mechanical, right?

That it cannot describe microscopic things very well, things where the quantum description of the universe takes over, where particles have fixed amounts of energy and are divided up into concrete chunks, right? General relativity thinks that the universe is continuous and infinitely divisible, but we know it's not that. Most of the time, that's not a big deal, because we're dealing with macroscopic objects.

But when you're talking about the inside of black holes or the inside of wormholes, we're pretty sure that quantum effects are going to be important, which means that if you're going to go inside a wormhole, you shouldn't just check with general relativity. You need to check with quantum gravity, which is the theory we don't even have. So I would be very wary of going inside a wormhole,

even if you found one, even if you stabilized it, because we don't really know what the rules are of quantum gravity. Right. And the hardest part seems to be to understand quantum physics. It's pretty tricky. Yeah, you've got to be pretty smart to understand quantum physics. I'll admit. Okay, so to answer the question, can we use a wormhole to get to another star galaxy?

The answer is maybe. It's theoretically possible, but it seems practically impossible. I would be super impressed with the next generation of engineers if we managed to build useful wormholes in the next a hundred years or so. I would be very, very deeply impressed. Good job, guys. I think you'd probably be dead. They'll probably send me as an experimental subject through the first wormhole just to prove them wrong. Yeah, so I would say the takeaway is wormholes theoretically possible, but never been seen and also very impractical. Right. But let's carry the fantasy a little bit longer here, because I heard, I read that the wormholes might not just connect space, but they

could also connect space and time. That's right. Space is part of this construct. We call it space time, right, where time is sort of the fourth dimension. And people have crazy ideas with what you could do with wormholes if you found them. If you take one end of the wormhole and you accelerate it to really, really high speeds, then you can take advantage of time dilation, right? That's moving clocks run more slowly. But if you're connected, if you have a stationary point connected to the fast moving point that you can play all sorts of tricks with special relativity and maybe

even go back in time. But Stephen Hawking says that's impossible. He says that if you send anything through the wormhole, then the wormhole will collapse. And so they called this the chronological protection conjecture that the universe is like conspired to make the laws of

physics impossible to do time travel. And I said, I took a stand on our time travel episode. I said time travel is impossible. And I stick by that because I think that this concept of using wormholes of travel back in time is absurd, not just impractical, but absurd and illogical. Okay.

So sorry to rain on your parade to prick your fantasy there, Jorge. Let me throw out my idea for a sci-fi novel right here. I'm just going to crunch that out and throw it into the trash here. No, no, no, science fiction is totally loud. In your universe, you can make up whatever rules you want, as long as you follow them. So we can have that in your science fiction universe, no problem. All right. I guess until then, we have to sit in traffic.

until the engineers figure out the wormhole. That's right. And so we hope you enjoyed this episode of Daniel and Jorge explain the universe. Daniel and Jorge shoot down your sci-fi idea. That's right. Send me your sci-fi idea through the wormhole of the internet, and I'll tell you why it's wrong.

But in a very cheerful tone. That's right. Warm your way into Daniel's inbox. All right. Thanks, everyone. Have a good one. See you next time. If you still have a question after listening to all these explanations,

please drop us a line we'd love to hear from you. You can find us at Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at Daniel and Jorge, that's one word, or email us at Feedback at Danielandhorpe.com. Smokey the Bears Then you know why Smokey tells you When he sees you passing through Remember please be careful It's the least that you can do

Force is what you desire Don't play with matches Don't play with fire After 80 years of learning his wildfire prevention tips Smokey Bear lives within us all Learn more at smoky bear.com And remember Only you can prevent wildfires

Brought to you by the USDA Forest Service, your state forester, and the ad council. Have you ever wished for a change but weren't sure how to make it? Maybe you felt stuck in a job, a place, or even a relationship. I'm Emily Tish Sussman, and on She Pivots, I dive into the inspiring pivots of women who have taken big leaps in their lives and careers. I'm Gretchen Whitmer, Jody Sweetie. Monica Patton, Elaine Welteroff. Learn how to get comfortable pivoting because your life is going to be full of them. Listen to these women and more on She Pivots, now on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Tune in to All the Smoke Podcast, where Matt and Stacks sit down with former first lady, Michelle Obama. Folks find it hard to hate up close. And when you get to know people and you're sitting in their kitchen tables and they're talking like we're talking,

you know, you hear our story, how we grew up, how Barack grew up, and you get a chance for people to unpack and get beyond race. All the Smoke featuring Michelle Obama. To hear this podcast and more, open your free iHeart radio app search all the smoke and listen now this is an iHeart podcast