Daniel and Kelly’s Extraordinary Universe - Listener Questions #49

Episode Date: September 3, 2026

Daniel and Kelly answer questions about alternatives to the Big Bang, scurvy, and supercontinents.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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You just go back out to practice the next day and wait for him to mess up. Listen to lots to say with Bobby Bones and Matt Castle on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What else could explain the cosmos besides the Big Bang? Was there a bounce, a steady state, or some stranger cosmic fang? Scurvy, palagra, rickets, and berry-berry were once common ways people died.

But death by nutritional deficiency happens less now, since our foods are fortified. Why does all the dry land pile up in one place, while oceans surrounded in every other space? Whatever questions keep you up at night? Daniel and Kelly's answers will make it right. Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's extraordinary universe of listener questions. Episode 49. 49. 49.

I have to pick like the best listener questions, but they're all the best. We can't do that. We'll transmit a special episode from the nursing home in which we live at that point. Okay. I think that's only going to be a couple years away, Daniel. Are you expecting an imminent decline? Yeah, I think that's fair. I'm already on that. decline. Thank you very much. I'm just doing a linear extrapolation. Yeah, I'm declining pretty

fast, and I'm Kelly Weiner-Smith who studies parasites and space, and I'm here today with my co-host, universe clumpiness lover. That's what it says under his face in Riverside. I was just listening to the episode about simulations where we joke about all the reasons we love the universe. It's clumpiness, it's lack of clumpiness. It's exactly correct. clumpy value. Well, and Daniel expects that I have a memory that is more than the five seconds of a memory that the goldfish has. And so he had to remind me what that meant. Meanwhile, you signed on with Weiner Smith. Very creative, Kelly. It's not supposed to be creative. It's just supposed to be who you are. So here's the thing, right? So we're going to give these

audio files to Matt. And if one of us was universe clumpiness lover and one of us was universe clumpiness hater, he'd have to figure out which one was which and it would be confusing. He would know. He would 100% know. All right, because he knows this that well. He knows this that well. He does. And on that episode, we also got a complaint from the listener.

He was disappointed that in the episode, he didn't get to hear any goats. Oh, I love our listeners so much. And I love my goats so much. But right now I'm traveling. I was at the Rockefeller Archive Center this morning. And I just got back to my hotel room, so I'm coming to you from Terrytown, New York. And there are no goats in Terrytown, and you didn't bring any goats on your research trip? I hope that there are ghosts in Terrytown, but if you bring a goat into an archive center, some archives are getting eaten.

All right. Well, today we're not just here to tease Kelly about traveling with goats. We're here to answer questions from listeners. We're here to respond to the thing we're always asking you to do, which is to engage, your curiosity, which is to sit back and wonder about how the universe works and why it makes sense and whether it actually makes sense. And then to write to us when it doesn't click together in your head. And our first question today is for universe clumpiness lover from Luca, who lives in New Jersey, which is the state that I was boarded. Hi, Daniel and Kelly. My name is Luca and I live in New Jersey. I'm a long-time listener, and I always hear you guys say, the Big Bang theory. And it gets me thinking, are there any other theories? If so, why haven't I heard of them?

Thanks for answering my question. Bye. Oh, this is a good question. Okay, so do you think we should start by, like, I know he said, all heard about the Big Bang, but here on DKEU, we take nothing for granted. So maybe we should start by, like, clarifying what the Big Bang is? I think that's actually important because it's going to set the stage for the answer. See, the Big Bang is. something very specific in the scientific community. It's an idea we have about how the universe has expanded, how it's gone from dense to less dense. But in popular science, it's something very, very different. And often when people say, the Big Bang theory, it's not clear which they mean.

And so here, of course, we're talking about science, but we're doing popular science, so let's clarify. In popular imagination, the Big Bang is an explosion of a tiny dot of matter. out into empty space to begin the universe. And that's a story widely told and widely heard, and unfortunately, very, very wrong. It's not our scientific description of the Big Bang. As we've discussed on the show in the past. Exactly. And to put a fine point on it, the Big Bang was not an explosion of a dot of matter into empty space. There was no empty space. There's never been empty space. Matter was everywhere. Otherwise, you'd have to ask, like, where was that point of matter?

Why was it here? Not there. Where are we relative to it, et cetera, et cetera? The universe has no center, no special places. Matter was everywhere. We don't know where that matter came from. The Big Bang Theory just says the universe was filled with hot, dense matter, and then that cooled and expanded.

It also doesn't claim that that's the beginning of the universe, that that's how anything started. It just says, that's how it was, and now it's changing in this way. So the Big Bang theory is not an explosion into empty space and not a story about the beginning or the creation of the universe. It just says you go back in time 14 billion years. The universe was hot and dense. Since then, it's expanded and cooled and become more dilute. Yes, excellent.

Okay. So is that like the main thing that all physicists agree on was happening at that time or is there a debate about the Big Bang? There's always debate and there's always disagreement in any. sort of healthy field. But the thing to know is that while there are some details to be worked out, there's a lot of evidence, like a lot with three underlines italic evidence for this expansion. Calm it down, universe clumpiness lover. You know, well, this is exactly how the universe got its wonderful clumpiness, you know, is all this expansion and contraction. We have evidence that the universe was once much denser

because we've seen light emitted by that dense plasma. That's the cosmic microwave background radiation. We've run simulations that explore, how can you get a universe that looks like this? And it's totally consistent with the universe was once filled with hot, dense plasma with little bits of clumpiness in it, which then got more clumpy as gravity did its work as things expanded and cooled. There's lots and lots of independent lines of evidence

that show us that the universe is getting less dense over time. So now Luca is asking, are there other theories than the Big Bang theory? And it's pretty hard to come up with another theory when there's so much overwhelming evidence for the Big Bang theory. Now, there used to be. Before we had all this evidence for the Big Bang, there was another theory. It was called the steady state theory. People saw, hey, the universe is expanding. Things are running away from each other. Space is increasing between galaxies. But it felt weird to imagine that the universe was getting less dense. So the alternative. The alternative. the steady state theory said that, yes, the universe is expanding, but somehow new matter is being constantly created. So the overall appearance stays statistically constant. The density was flat, right? That density was not decreasing. And that made sense to some people because it suggested that the universe was sort of static or constant in a way, that it wasn't denser earlier and less dense later. And so that was the major competitor for the Big Bang, but it was basically ruled out when we saw the cosmic microwave background of radiation and we looked at the evolution of galaxies,

it just does not describe the universe as we see it. And, you know, there's Big Bang nucleosynthesis, there's a large-scale structure, there's the barion acoustic oscillations, all the stuff we've talked about in the podcast a lot. There are no realistic theories that describe the universe that don't involve expansion because we've seen expansion in so many different ways. And fundamentally, that's what the Big Bang is. It just says the universe is expanding and getting more dilute. So are there alternative theories to the Big Bang? Are there theories that the universe isn't getting more dilute? No, because we see that it's happening. And so none of those theories would be consistent with reality. Okay, so you said, are there theories that the universe isn't getting more

dilute? So is that like the feature of a not Big Bang theory? Yeah. Because I feel like we could be tracking that, but we could also be tracking like, are we talking about the start of the universe or not? Because the Big Bang theory is not talking about the start of the universe. That's right. So I think what's confusing me. So here's some things I remember you have told me, because I listen. The universe is expanding. Yes.

And it's expanding at a faster rate. And as it expands, it gets filled in with dark. Is it energy or matter? Energy. Energy. Ah, not matter. Okay, so it is getting more dilute because it's not more matter that's being produced. It's more energy.

And energy is not matter, but sometimes that's confusing. And so steady state is different than the big. Big Bang, how, if all of that is true? The steady state theory says that there is no drop in density, that new matter is being created. The universe is expanding, it's getting bigger, but somehow new galaxies are popping into existence to fill in that space. So density is not dropping. And the reason I want to emphasize that the Big Bang theory is just basically the statement

that the universe is expanding and density is dropping is to highlight that there are no alternatives to that because we see that that's what happening. But I suspect what Luke is really curious. about are other theories of what happens before that hot, dense state. Where does that come from? He's probably imagining the Big Bang theory as an origin of the universe theory, which technically it's not, and wondering about other origin of the universe theories. And there, there's a whole wide open proliferation of theories because we don't have a lot of data. Like, since that hot, dense state and the expansion, we have lots of measurements, we've pinned it down, we know things are expanding.

We can describe that as the Big Bang. Before that, it's still very big. It's still very important. It's still very, very murky, which means lots of room for speculation and crazy theories about where all that matter came from. Remember, the Big Bang does not tell us where the hot, dense stuff came from. If the universe was infinite, it was already filled with glorious, glowing matter. And the Big Bang theory does not tell us where. We need another theory, a pre-Big Bang theory to tell us where that came from. And there are definitely some exciting options there to talk about. Oh, is this what Ethan who we had on our show. Does he do a bunch of this stuff? Yes, Ethan Siegel is a cosmologist, and he does early universe cosmology. He's an expert in that. He has a great podcast called

Starts with a Bang. Also, it's a blog. Y'all should check his stuff out. He's great. Also, he wears a kilt and has a wonderful mustache. He is a super cool dude. Yes, I was disappointed that I only got to see him from the shoulders up with our video, but he explains the cool kilt he was wearing that day. He probably also appropriately enjoys the universe's clumpiness. Did I come off as a clumpiness hater in the last episode? Because I don't remember that at all. I don't feel like I would be anti-clumpiness. No, but you're definitely a mocker of universe clumpiness lovers. Wow. Which is, you know, not being very supportive. I'm so sorry to all one of you. All right, so let's get back to Lucas' question. You know, are there explanations for

where all this stuff came from. And there definitely are. And remember, these are all speculative, and there's no data that will tell us one or the other. One of the most popular is called inflation. And it's sort of like a super version of the Big Bang. The Big Bang tells us the universe expanded since that hot dense state. Inflation says, what if there's crazy, amazing expansion before that, where even tinier quantum fluctuations were expanded out to macroscopic variations and density? And that could explain how you got a hot dense plasma that's a little bit heavier here and a little bit less dense there. Okay. And it's super cool because the inflation theory says start with the universe and fill it with this inflaton field that causes this insane expansion, you know, factors of like

10 to the 30 expansion every 10 to the minus 30 seconds. Just like hard to even really put your mind around. Yeah. And the whole universe is expanding that way. But then occasionally, points in the field will decay and they'll turn into normal matter like our universe. And so in the inflation theory, our whole universe is like one dot in this vast inflating inflatine field that turned into normal matter and then you have our Big Bang, et cetera, et cetera. But the rest of the universe is still inflating. So we stopped inflating 14 billion years ago, but the rest of it continued. And there might be other dots out there that also turned into normal matter and turned into little pocket bubble universes that are now normal matter like ours. But we're separated from

them by huge, vast distances of this constantly inflating inflatant field, so we have no way to ever interact with them. So that's this picture of the universe filled with this insanely expanding inflatant field, and then these little bubble universes, one of which is ours. Is there any evidence for that? There's no direct evidence for inflation. It's a really cool theory because it solves some problems we've talked in the podcast about before, like how the universe is so flat or the temperature smoothness of that early universe plasma. And so it's very compelling theoretically and it does answer some questions, but it's no direct evidence for it. We might one day see direct evidence for it. The limitation is that we haven't seen anything

earlier than the cosmic microwave background radiation. Because that's the first moment the universe became transparent. So the light that was emitted, could, like, fly through the universe and be picked up by our telescopes. Everything before that was absorbed. But the universe is transparent to different kinds of things earlier, like gravitational waves can pass through lots of stuff. And so gravitational waves from before that hot, dense plasma that made the CMB might still be out there in the universe, and we could pick them up and measure them and learn things about the even earlier universe and get hints of inflation. There was a measurement a few years ago by Brian Keating and collaborators who thought they saw signs of inflation

in the gravitational waves. But it turns out to have just been dust. And they took a picture of somebody's PowerPoint slide and used that as a crucial part of their calculation and got the answer wrong. So long story short, we don't have evidence for inflation. But we might one day. And didn't Keating write about that in his book or something? Yes, he wrote a book called Losing the Nobel Prize. Exactly. Oh, man. What are the good things? about the field that I work in is you're not getting the Nobel Prize. So you don't have to worry about losing it, right? That doesn't keep you up at night.

No, you're just getting weird parasites. Yay! Yay! Yay! So that's a very one-directional theory. Other theories are like cyclic theories that suggest that maybe the universe has like repeated cycles of expansion and contraction. And each Big Bang is like a transition from a previous cosmic phase. You know, so for example, Penrose is a theory of cyclic cosmology, where the end of the universe looks very similar to the beginning of the universe and could essentially recycle the Big Bang.

This is an interesting idea, and a lot of people like this idea when they hear about it, they write to me and they're like, ooh, have you heard this idea? It's very cool. There were claims that there was evidence for this. Patterns we saw in the cosmic microwave background that indicated evidence from a previous universe, but independent analysis didn't hold that up. And then reanalysis of the original claims fell apart. So bottom line is there was a bit of hoopla, and you might find some Popsai articles suggesting that there is evidence for us, but there isn't any evidence for a cyclic universe. That doesn't mean it's not happening. But theoretically, it's a bit of a challenge to construct like a physically viable mechanism that generates this cycle and respects the laws of thermodynamics, et cetera, et cetera, from cycle to cycle.

but, you know, it could be our universe. Okay. Well, I'm kind of glad that there's not loads of evidence for this one because the idea of our universe contracting makes me feel a little uncomfortable. And that sounds like, you know, the kind of thing that could end humanity. But all right, let's talk about a new, are there more theories? Well, the next one's not going to make you more comfortable because the next one says the universe didn't begin with a singularity. It began with another one contracting. So it's called the big bounce, right?

Oh, no. Essentially, that expansion happened in reversed, things got really, really dense, and then reversed. And, you know, there are some theories of, like, loop quantum gravity approaches to bringing quantum mechanics and gravity together, which naturally lead to a big bounce. And so from a theoretical point of view, that's also very cool. And so in this picture, you know, the Big Bang is real. It's just not the beginning of the universe. It's just that the expansion was preceded by a contraction in those theories. Okay.

And then maybe my favorite kind of out there idea that sounds really fun to think about while smoking banana peels is the like time symmetric universe. We have these symmetries in our universe, time symmetry, charge symmetry, parity symmetry, and you can combine them all together to make charge parity time symmetry. We flip all of them. And we think that the universe is symmetric under all three flips simultaneously. If you go backwards in time and change positive to negative and flip everything through a mirror, physics should look all the same. So this inspires the idea that maybe at the beginning of the universe, sort of two universes were created, one going forward in time and when going backwards in time. And there's this like mirror image universes going forwards and backwards. And this actually got a lot of press because one thing it suggests is the existence of these very high mass dark matter part of.

which would coalesce in the center of the earth. And there's an experiment in Antarctica that saw weird particles that might be coming from the center of the earth. And it received a lot of popular press saying, NASA has discovered a parallel universe right next to ours, man. Which, of course, it didn't. But it got a lot of clicks. So that's another fun theory about, like, what happened before the Big Bang. And, you know, the takeaway is there's lots of ideas here. We don't have data to pin any of these down.

But all of these are pre-Big Bang. The actual Big Bang theory is pretty well established. You never say never because you could always learn something which upends consensus and physicists would love to do that. But there's so much overwhelming data for the expansion of the universe itself that there aren't really viable alternatives to the Big Bang theory. The same way there aren't like real viable alternatives to evolution or like heliocentrism. Right.

All right, well, thank you to Luca for this awesome question, and let's see if universe clumpiness lover gave a satisfying answer. You know, I was thinking I would update mine to say goat lover, but it's got a definite different vibe. So I'm going to not go there. Hi, Daniel and Kelly. Thank you so much for answering my question. I think you interpreted it very well. I've had that question on my mind for a while, and you really helped clear it up. I enjoyed learning about all of the theories, especially your favorite, Daniel, the time-symmetric universe, and I also like the cyclic universe, except for the fact that we all die in the end.

Thanks again. Keep up the great work. Bye. Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything. If your bookshelf and your for you page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsesives, and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't see. stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. So I'm obsessed. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside

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All right, we're back and we're answering questions from listeners. And this question is going to hit a special chord in my household. Oh, well, maybe that is

the motivation for the question because actually you might see that I did not include the name of the question asker. Do you know who asked this question? I do not.

Was it somebody in my household? It was you. What? Two years ago when we started podcasting, I guess it's a little short of two years.

Our podaversary is in October. But you, You wrote me and you were like, oh, I would love to hear about diseases that it turns out are really easy to fix. Oh. And the diseases I could come up with were nutritional deficiencies that are easy to fix by just getting the right thing in your diet. And it took me two years. But as I was reading about scurvy and pellagra recently, I was like, I can cross Daniel's questions off my list.

So anyway, I've kept this on a checklist for a long time. So Daniel, that's amazing. This one's for you. It's amazing. This is my question because scurvy is something we talk about in my household all the time. It's Katrina's go-to joke. When we are struggling to get our kids to eat vegetables or fresh foods, she's like, oh, my God, it would be the biggest parenting fail of all time if you guys died of scurvy.

Because she's always worried that, like, if they just eat bread and cheese or, like, peanut butter and crackers, that's like they're not getting enough, you know, whatever nutrients they need. A scorbic acid. That would be pretty embarrassing to have your kids die of scurvy in 2026. It would be super embarrassing. The good news is they probably have about a three-month supply stored up. So you've got about three months to get them to eat vitamin C after they've had a long stretch of just like bread and whatnot. But yeah, that would be pretty embarrassing.

But thankfully, scurvy is pretty rare these days. I read this book called Scurvy, well-named, by Stephen Bown. And he was saying that there's an estimate that about two million sailors died from scurvy during what's called the age of sail. And so this is like in between Columbus, sailing for America, and when we start getting steam-powered ships. So that's a lot of people dying from scurvy. That is a lot of people dying. Yeah. But tell me, like, what causes scurvy?

What is scurvy anyway? So let's start with the symptoms of scurvy. So what is scurvy? Scurvy is when essentially anything in your body that requires collagen starts failing. What is collagen exactly? Good point. So women always hear about, oh, you need more collagen because it like gives your facial skin, its firmness or whatnot. So you need to like rub collagen all over your face.

And I guess those ads are not scents to everybody. Your face looks disturbed. What are you looking at right now? I'm imagining rubbing collagen in my face, but I have no idea what collagen looks like. So like, what am I rubbing on my face right now? Okay. Yeah, I guess I don't exactly know what it looks like, but it's a protein in your body that's used for like structural stuff. Okay.

So when you don't have that, a bunch of structural stuff falls apart. So like your teeth don't stay in place anymore. They fall out. You start feeling weak physically. Old wounds that were held together. The collagen sort of is no longer there to hold it together and they start opening up again. Other things that happen is you become really like exhausted and lethargic. your gums start bleeding, all of your connective tissues start to fall apart.

And there's just stories about sailors who essentially can't get themselves out of bed anymore and just like die in their beds. So these things need a constant supply of collagen? Like I imagined you build some bit of your body. You've used that resource. You've built it. You don't need to constantly come by and resupply it with collagen. So why do you need new collagen all the time? Yeah.

So there are some things that you do need to keep replenishing. And so, like, I guess you need to keep replenishing, like, the connections between your teeth and the rest of your face. And you need to keep working on, like, places where there have been wounds because those seem to be some of the first things that fall apart when you get sick. And I guess I had not realized that you need to keep putting more and more collagen into stuff. But, you know, most of the cells in your body turnover. It's not too surprising that the structural stuff in your body needs to be replenished from time to time. Okay. I guess you need a constant, like, supply of calcium to keep your bones strong.

this kind of stuff? Yeah, they're constantly being built up and broken down. So, yeah, you also need calcium for your bones at all times. All right. So if you don't have enough collagen, then stuff breaks down and your teeth fall out and you turn into a big river band. Exactly. Right.

And so the problem is that you need a squabic acid, which is also known as vitamin C, to create an enzyme that is used to make collagen. Oh, I see. So if you don't get vitamin C or a squabic acid, you don't get collagen and everything just kind of starts falling apart. But it took us a really long time to figure this out. And the reason it took us so long is that, like, yes, you can get. So, you know, Katrina is worried about the kids not eating enough fresh stuff.

But, like, if you look at fresh stuff, ascorbic acid or vitamin C is not, like, evenly distributed amongst fruits and vegetables. So, for example, oranges and lemons have, like, 10 times as much as scorbic acid as a lime does. and while cucumbers have like no escorbic acid, broccoli seems to have loads of it. And there's no really easy way to predict by looking at something like, oh, that should have a lot of escorbic acid and that shouldn't. But another thing that complicated the story is that then you look at people like the Inuits who don't get to eat a lot of fresh food, right? They live in an area where they don't have access to loads of fruits and vegetables. And so you'd think, okay, well, it can't be fresh fruits and vegetables because the Inuits aren't eating loads. of fresh food, but they're fine.

But it turns out that there's a lot of vitamin C in kidneys and livers. And so when they capture animals, those are parts of the animal that they tend to eat that, for example, British sailors weren't tending to eat. Additionally, if you bruise a fruit, the escorbic acid starts to go away. If you cook the fruit in like a copper pan, that makes it so that the escorbic acid like goes away. So there's chemistry. chemistry, right? And so there's so many different ways that even if you're on the right track, you could do something that you weren't expecting. Like if you're preparing a bunch of

lemon juice for a really long voyage, but you happen to like boil it first in a copper pot, maybe you're going to get scurvy because you've lost a bunch of it on the way. And so there were times throughout history where we actually like kind of were on the right track. And then we'd totally throw ourselves off. So for example, when the British East India Company started, and this was around like 1600, they actually had a pretty good sense that oranges and lemons were important for warding off scurvy. And so not only did they bring that stuff with them, but they also like set up stops along their roots where they would like, you know, stop and grab some limes or some lemons or something. And that helps them. But they did such a good

job of warding off scurvy that the next generation of people were like, this scurvy thing isn't really a problem. We're like making all these extra stops for lemons and limes. But like, why are we doing that? What a waste of time. I don't need an umbrella. It's not raining under here. Yes, exactly, right? And so that knowledge got lost. But then there was this guy named James Lynde. And in 1747, he was on the HMS Salisbury. And he was like, look, we've got to figure this scurvy thing out. There were all kinds of, like, really bad treatments out there. And the, like, common denominator seemed to be that they were things that were cheap, right?

so the British Navy wouldn't have to spend a lot of money. So the cure for scurvy is drink salt water. It's infinite. That's not great. It's free. And then another, like there was this observation that when people get scurvy, they're like, they're lethargic and they slow down. And so it was thought that like, no, this isn't a symptom of scurvy setting in.

This is you being lazy and the laziness gives rise to scurvy. So if you're feeling, you know, tired and lethargic, The solution is you need to work harder, which was not going to solve the problem. Why don't you just go jogging to cure your scurvy? Yeah, right. Or your depression. Right. Now this is hitting home.

So it's like in the Weiner Smith household. But anyway, okay, so there were all of these bad treatments, including things like Mercury, which, you know, the English were like slathering on everything for every reason you could imagine. But James Lynde in 1747 gets these 12 guys on a ship that are starting to get scurvy. Okay. He puts them all in the same area. So they're all in the same environment. He feeds them all the exact same food. And then he splits them into six pairs.

And he gives each pair one of the prominent anti-scorbutics or one of the, you know, prominent things that are used to treat scurvy at the time. So he's doing experiments on these guys. He's doing experiments on these guys. Right. And so like two of the guys got spoonfuls of vinegar, two of the guys got seawater, two of the guys got seawater, two of the guys got oranges and a lemon. Two of the guys got cider and then two of them got like a medicinal paste or something like that. None of them had to like run laps or something.

No, no, not in this experiment. They didn't just like get slapped and shouted at or something. I mean, I think that's what was probably happening above board where the ship's physician wasn't in charge of things. Right. Okay, so he did like a controlled experiment. Yeah, right. And the citrus treatment, those guys got totally better. and it was clear that citrus was the solution.

The guys who had a quart of cider did okay because it turns out there's some escorbic acid and cider. But there, like, there was the answer, right? So did the other guys die or did they give them lemon juice in time? History doesn't care. I care. I'm hoping that what happened is they ended up getting oranges when the experiment was over. Yeah.

Well, they gave their lives so we can understand scurvy. Let's at least respect their sacrifice. Oh, oh, oh, this was not. This was not the moment where everyone was like, oh, done, citrus. That's the solution. Oh, I see. So he published it. But when he published this account, he also talked smack about everybody else who had bad ideas about what's caused scurvy and how to treat it.

And so he ended up making a bunch of people dislike him. Oh, no. And then he got put in charge of like a naval hospital and his interest in doing good experiments like evaporated. And from there on out, he started just like. like making pronouncements about how to treat scurvy that were not backed by scientific fact. And some of them strayed from this citrus thing. And so the point is there were multiple points in history where we were like on the right track. And then we lost, you know, we lost the story there.

But now we know it's a squirbic acid. You can get it from fresh fruits and vegetables. This can still be a problem. For example, refugee populations that don't have access to a lot of fresh food. They have to eat sort of whatever shelf-stable food they're given. Sometimes scurvy is a problem for those populations. But thankfully, for most of us who can go to a grocery store and can afford to buy fresh fruits and vegetables, scurvy is something we shouldn't have to encounter. Because some guy did crazy experiments and then retreated into a life of feuds.

Well, that's scientist for you. That's fascinating. And these stories of figuring it out are always really compelling to me because it's never a straight line, right? It's never like we did this experiment. The results were clear. And we knew. It's always like, a hundred years later, somebody looked at the data or somebody followed up or somebody finally made sense of it. It's incredible how long it takes to figure things out and how obvious things seem to be in hindsight, right? Yeah, but I feel like with scurvy

in particular, it makes sense to me that it was so confusing. Yeah. If the answer was oranges, I wouldn't have realized that like, oh, cooking it in the copper pan first is going to totally inactivate the escorbic acid. Like that, I don't know, that's, that just doesn't even seem fair even. That just seems totally not fair. Oh, wait. And I haven't even told you the most interesting thing yet. Well, how do you rank interesting? I don't know. But some species of primates and guinea pigs and us are some of the few animals that can't produce vitamin C on their own. Oh. So like rats that were on our ships weren't going to get scurvy, even if there were no fruits and vegetables, because their bodies are making their own vitamin C. Why aren't we? I don't know. I don't know. I don't think.

think I don't think we know. I mean, it could be that like in our evolutionary past, we quote unquote grew up in an area where there was always fresh food around and so it just didn't come up. So we kind of lost the ability. And then we moved into environments where it turned out it was much harder to get fresh fruits. And now we're just not super well adapted. But yeah, that in guinea pigs. And some scientists who were studying it got really lucky that they were doing experiments on guinea pigs who also happened to not make a squabic acid. Because some of the studies that we did were really like nailed this stuff down were done in guinea pigs. And If they had picked mice instead, it might have taken us much longer to figure this stuff out.

Wow. Yeah. Amazing. Well, I collected stories for some other diseases, but I talked so long about scurvy. I'm just going to tell you that Pelagra is caused by a deficiency of vitamin B3. You can also get goiters if you don't have enough iodine, rickets if you don't have enough vitamin D and night blindness if you don't have enough vitamin A. But the good news is, for most of these, we have fortified different foods in the United States. the United States, for example. And so if you just eat like a somewhat normal diet, a lot of the foods are fortified so that you will get enough of this. So for example, the salt, your table salt is usually fortified with iodine, so we don't have to worry about things like goiters. I remember when Katrina was pregnant and we discovered we'd been using mostly kosher salt, which doesn't have iodine in it. And we had a moment of panic that, you know, our son was in utero without enough iodine. Of course, he's fine. But what did you do? We did a bunch of research.

search and we discovered that, oh, actually iodine is in lots of stuff and it's very hard to avoid in modern society. Okay, good. Even if you don't specifically put iodine salt on your food at home. Now, I know that you eat one meal a day and it's dinner with your family. Does Katrina eats, like, does she ever go to restaurants or something where she would encounter table salts that happen to have iodine in it? Or does she also only eat dinner made at home? Katrina is not on the vampire diet. She eats like a normal human being. And yes. eats out at restaurants. And exactly, anytime you eat at somebody else's house or in a restaurant or prepackaged foods or whatever, there's iodized salt and everything. So we were worried and

panicked because we were new parents, but it was fine. Oh my gosh, the number of things I worried and panicked about as a new parent. Wow. So listener, universe clumpiness lover, did that address the question that you forgot that you had? So I went a little heavy on the history and a little light on the collagen. I'm feeling like you would want it's more collagen. But what are you going to do? Thanks for taking my question, guys. Longtime listener, love the show. Yes, that totally answers my question. And I'm also disappointed, however, that there were no goat sounds in the answer.

That's what I really was here for. Okay. Thank you. I'm here to please. Let's take a break. And when we come back, we will get to our third question. Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave Netflix and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit.

Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything. On the new podcast Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Every time I tried to be alone, I kept meeting people, and they were like, you smiled at us.

Not a lot of people smile around here. It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it. It can be a time where you push your limits. change your mind or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Hayes Davenport. And Sean Clements.

We host the podcast Hollywood Handbook on the Big Money Players Network. Our show is extremely accessible to first-time listeners. Each week, we talk to someone in show business, aka the big. is and try to help them with their careers and see what they have to offer us. Everyone has a good time and no one gets mad at their publicists for letting them do our show. We've had a lot of great guests like Sarah Sherman, not that great. Actually, can you help me shape this? How about we flip it on his head, right?

How about we flip this script? What is the surprise woman? Actually, you think is the straight man is actually the one who's acting weird. Adam Scott. This entire time. You've been expecting Adam Sandler to come to visit the show. I would never expect. I have.

I would never set expectations for something like that to happen. If the universe allows for something like that to happen, I'm open to it. I'm always going to accept. You know, Danny McBride, fine. Yeah, it's all this fragile masculinity exuding. I could smell it walking down the hallway, to be honest with you. I was like, is that weed? Nope.

It's fragile. Madsular masculinity. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ben Stiller, no. Because a lot of times out of context, people don't get it or even know what a circle is. You know what I mean? They're like, oh, what's a state.

Everyone's so dumb. And fake. Right. Fake and also not interested. Or just like, oh, I've got my life. I don't care about your life. And a lot of other big shots that wouldn't be where they are without us. Oh, and by the way, Will Ferrell told us personally he loves the show and he wants to be a guest on every episode, but he's just so busy.

Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsesses, and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators

to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers

who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to pro society on the Iheart radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. Our town is small taters by most standards, right? But to the people who grew up here, it's everything. What happens when a quiet Tennessee town becomes the front line in a battle over the future of America?

Developers with right-wing ties have purchased hundreds of acres of land in the area. The first thing you see when it pops up is pioneers in Appalachia. But they weren't just planning houses. We need cities on a shining hill that exemplify and embody the Christian way of life. Stop right there. Is that normal? A podcast about what happens when a small town becomes the site of a social experiment. God need men to rule. Great. And decides to fight back.

Do not use my hard work to sell your bull-h. They're not just opposing what's being planned for here. Our hometown is not a test tube. They feel like they're standing in opposition to. an entire administration. Guess you didn't move in on a bunch of dumb hillbillies now, did you? Listen to Our Town on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back, and we have a question from Jude from Washington State.

Hi, Daniel and Kelly. Thanks for helping us get smarter about this extraordinary universe. Given the chaotic factors that influence the formation of Earth, it seems odd that a single large landmass would develop with so much water on the rest of the surface. Why would there be such a bulge on one side of the planet? We weren't tidily locked, were we? What do we know about that process? Thanks for helping us learn, Jude, from Washington State.

I love this question from Jude. It's so much fun. I love that he's thinking about, you know, this history we've learned about the planet and wondering, like, how it all makes sense and why it happens this way and bringing in other ideas he's learned from physics. So this is exactly the kind of curiosity. I'd love to encourage in people. Thank you, Jude. Yeah, this is a fantastic question. I also love thinking about like pangia and what the earth

used to look like. And so can you start, so it's so much easier when you have a picture of Pangia. Help us picture. You know, what did our planet look like 300 million years ago? Well, like journeys into deep time are one of my favorite things, just imagining how much time has lapsed in the universe that even really, really slow things can have huge. consequences over deep time. So, for example, we know the continents are moving, but it turns out that 335 million years ago, the arrangement of the continents on the earth was very, very different than it is today. Today, you have the massive Pacific Ocean, but you have a bunch of continents sort of spread out. But 335 million years ago, we had a single continent. All the landmasses were

still there, but they were all clumped together into one supercontinent called Pangaea. And so if you took the earth and you spun it, it would be like mostly water. And then there'd be like one slice of a bunch of continents all stuck together, strung between the North Pole and the South Pole, sort of like a big crescent. And you can see like Proto Africa and the beginnings of Asia and stuff. And it forms like sort of a sea shape where the top of the sea is near the North Pole and the bottom of the sea is near the South Pole. So which ocean won, right? So was it the Pacific Ocean or the Atlantic Ocean?

Which is the one that gets to take all? So it's a constant battle between the two oceans, actually. The Atlantic Ocean doesn't exist at this time, right? So Pacific winds. Its formation is what broke up Pangaea. So it's like the rise of the Atlantic Ocean. But back then they didn't call the Pacific. There was a super ocean they called Pantalassa.

I don't know who gets to name all these things, but they all sound really cool and historical. They're not physicists then. Yeah. And the whole idea of super oceans comes from the origin of the continental drift theory. So this is like 100 years ago now. People are wondering about, you know, the ancient history of the planet. And there's a long tradition of being unable to grapple with the times involved. You know, like when we were learning about the age of the earth, people were like,

maybe it's a million years old. Oh, my God, that would be so maybe it's 20 million. And then, you know, actually seeing the evidence that it's almost. five billion years old. It's just mind-blowing. And in the same way, the idea that the continents are moving and they're moving very slowly so that, like, you can't see anything basically over a lifetime, but that over eons, it could totally change the face of the planet. This is a very controversial idea about 100 years ago. It took a long time before it was like adopted by mainstream science. And for that reason, it plays like an oversized role in both criticisms of

science, like, look how long it takes science to recognize the truth and also defenses of science where people are like, well, actually, it was the data that won out, and this is how science is supposed to work. But, you know, not getting into that whole culture war. Alfred Wenner was the guy who came up with this idea of continental drift in the early 1900s, and he's the one who hypothesized the existence of Pangaea, sort of tracked all the continents motion backwards in time, and was able to predict, like, oh, it looks like they all came from one mega continent. And it's not hard to imagine this if you just look at, like, the Atlantic, right? You can look at the coast of the United States and South America and see how, like, the coast

of South America in particular matches up with the coast of Africa, right? And the Atlantic is getting wider every year. And so just reverse that back in time, and boom, South America and Africa fit together very nicely into a mega continent. And there's lots of really fun evidence for this. It's not just continental drift. You can see the same mountain ranges that are now on two different continents, but it's very obvious geologically that they come from the same original mountain range.

Like the Appalachians, right, in your area, you can see the continuation of the Appalachians in Scandinavia. Crazy. Like, it's the same mountains. Yes, I know. And you see evidence of fossils, like animals that lived on one continent. And then it's split up and now we see fossils on both sides. So it's very clear that continents are moving and they used to be merged. And if you go back in time, you can see this mega consonant.

Do you think Alfred was into puzzles? I think Alfred must have had a really geometrical mind to think about all this stuff and to imagine what it must have looked like. And so this is the impetus of Jude's question. He's like, how can it be? Isn't it weird to have all the land on one side and the rest? to just water, like it feels imbalanced. And he's wondering if this came from being tidily locked with the sun or something external. And so it's a great question.

And the answer is super cool. The answer is that there's a cycle, that the earth tends to build supercontinence and then break up supercontinents and then build supercontinents and then break up supercontinence. This has happened like several times in the last few billion years. if you had a movie of the earth of the last two billion years and you fast forwarded it like super duper time lapse, you would see supercontinants forming and breaking up and forming and breaking up. That's scary. And so thankfully it happens on very long time scale.

So I'm going to be honest, I think I've only, I've mostly heard about Pangaea, the supercontinent. And I don't know that I've heard about the like versions before that had been broken up and then put back together. First, let's talk about why, and then let's talk about what came before. Why is that happening? Yeah. So there's two effects here, right? Why do continents come together? Why does the earth tend to make supercontinants?

And then the other part is, why does it tend to break them up? So first, why does it make supercontinants? Well, continents drift, right? What's happening is that the earth is still hot, and inside the earth there's the mantle, and it's a really dense hot rock, which effectively is like a fluid, right? not technically a liquid, but a fluid. And so it flows, and you get these convection cells where things rise and then sink. And so they're spinning. And so you have these spinning cells underneath the hard crust, and that's moving stuff. It's just like having a, you know,

a tank tread underneath the tank. It's moving the tank. And so it's sliding continental plates against each other. And where they meet, one of them gets pushed down back into the mantel. It's subduction zone and it gets melted down, et cetera. And so that's how continents move, right? Because of these convection cells are like pushing on things underneath. So what happens if you have a bunch of continents and they start out randomly distributed or whatever and you just slide them around the planet is eventually they're going to bang into each other, right? And it's not like a box full of balls that are going to bang into each other and then bounce off. And so that on average, they're going to stay separate. These things stick, right? The subduction zones,

things get pushed underneath. You get pushed against each other. You get mountain ranges, like, you know, Mount Everest, for example. And so things stick together. And so it's like a box of sticky balls. You shake it, and they're all bounce around. And eventually they all stick together, and you get one big ball, right? Okay. But then how do you get them back out again? Yeah. So that's what's happening. That's why you form supercontinacy. You have a bunch of continents, and they're wandering the planet, they're going to end up hitting each other and sticking. All right. So then why is it a cycle? Why don't we just have one supercontinent forever, one to rule them all, right? Well, the answer is that supercontinent formation creates the process that breaks them up because you have this heat underneath

right, but now you have a supercontinent and it's trapped all that heat. There's nowhere for it to go. So it builds up, it like makes like a dome of heat underneath the supercontinent. And that creates a rift, and that tears the supercontinent apart, and it can create like a new ocean. So the Atlantic Ocean, right, there's the mid-Atlantic rift, which is like a tear in the earth's crust almost, and the Atlantic Ocean is expanding. It's getting wider and wider every year. This is why South America was torn from the coast of Africa. It's because the Atlantic emerged and is pushing those two apart, and that's because there's a huge bubble of heat that was trapped under there last time. it was a supercontinent.

And so supercontinants form, they create these heat domes because there's nowhere for this heat to get released. And then it pulls them apart. And that's how the Atlantic Ocean was created. And so this has happened several times in the history of the planet and probably will continue to happen. But we won't be seeing it because we won't be living long enough. Because we're on an imminent decline to a nursing home. And apparently about two years, according to Daniel. So what are some of the cool names that obviously were not made by physicists that like these supercontents had before?

So a lot of this is speculative because, you know, you're projecting back many collisions and it's very chaotic and we don't have clear data in some cases. But we also do have some data, right? Okay. Big geological effects like this leave markers all over the planet and geologists are very, very clever in extracting these clues. So we think that around two billion years ago there was a supercontinent called, Columbia that lasted about 200 million years. Wow. That's a long time.

Then it got torn apart, and continents wandered the planet for about 500 million years until they formed another supercontinent called Rodinia. So this is 1.3 billion years ago. And this one lasted for half a billion years before things wandered again. Then they came together around 540 million years ago to make another supercontinent called Penotea. that one didn't last for very long. It broke apart, and then Pangea was formed around 350 million years ago.

So it's fun to think about that history and to overlay onto it the history of life on Earth, right, because the Cambrian explosion is less than a billion years ago. The dinosaurs, right, overlap with this. So, like, the configuration of the continents played a big role in, like, where critters were, which ones were connected to which other ones. if you lived a long time ago, you saw a different planet than the one we have today. Our Earth, what you think makes it Earth, is actually just a momentary snap shot in the life of a very dynamic planet. Man, it really blows my mind that geologists were able to figure all of this out.

This is really cool. And that the story is interesting, right? You could look back on the history of the planet. It could be like, oh, yeah, it was made this way. And it's always been this way. Yon. but instead it's like super chaotic and dynamic. There's all sorts of stuff happening.

It's incredible. I'm really glad that geology didn't turn out to be boring. I don't know. From a biologist perspective, at least yawn means you're like not as likely to die from something catastrophic. But I see your point. This is a more interesting story. It's funny how sometimes boring is good and sometimes it's not. Like one of my kids had an MRI one time.

And I always remember that the conclusion was MRI is unremarkable. And I was like from, that's good news, I think, from like a health point of view that there's nothing weird in your MRI. But I was like, actually, this kid's pretty remarkable. So, you know, I'm going to try not to be insulted. I know. He is a very remarkable kid. But, but, yes, there are some things you want to be unremarkable. And your medical results are certainly some of them.

Yes, exactly. All right. Well, thank you, Jude, for this wonderful question. We're going to send this back to you to hear if we've answered your question. And if you have any follow-ups. Well, that was great. First, I've been mispronouncing Pangae. Now I see it. Sticky continents that combine and split and recombine? Huh. Amazing. I thought having one supercontinent was impressive. Now I picture the earth as this sloshy blob swirling its way around the sun.

So much for being rock solid and terra firma. Does this suggest the earth is mostly liquid? Well, very hot, slow-moving liquid? Thanks for helping us learn and changing our perspectives in this sloshy, messy, complicated universe. All right. Thank you so much for these amazing questions. I have a little bit of bad news. And my bad news is I need to take a little bit of an email hiatus because I have a six-month backlog on questions I haven't answered yet. Wow. You know, and Daniel took two years to get his answer.

It just kind of happened to be that I was reading about scurvy today and was like, oh, I can answer Daniel's question. So I can't do any new research questions. I'll tell you at some point in 2027 when I'm able to take some. new ones, but I need to get through the amazing questions that you all have already asked me, and I have many fun hours of research ahead. But I look forward to when I can take more questions. All right. Well, thank you very much, everyone, for sharing with us your curiosity. It's what we thrive on. Until next time. Thanks, everybody for listening. Please go and do us a favor and rate the show on whatever podcast app you're using. It really helps people find us.

Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is edited by the amazing Matt Kesselman. really is a wizard. You can also find us online on Blue Sky, Instagram, and X, D&K Universe. Come engage with us. You can email us at Questions at Danielandkelly.org. We really do want to hear from you. And you can find our website, www.danaulandkelly.org, where you'll also find an invitation to join our Discord where everybody comes and talks about the amazing universe. And we also have the most amazing moderators. is an iHeart podcast. Thanks for joining us. I'm talking to a felon right now with face tattoos, and I cannot decide if I like him or not.

That was a caller from my podcast, Therapy Gecko, where I speak with anonymous callers about their problems, relationships, and anything else in the depths of their mind. It all happens on my show, Therapy Gecko. So if you're trying to get out of your own head and into someone else's, this is the podcast for you. Listen to Therapy Gecko on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What up? This Jay Valentine co-host of the R&B Money Podcast alongside my brother, R&B legend, Tank. Together, we've built a space for artists, executives, and fans of R&B music to reminisce and tell the real stories behind the music. I have no money. I was hood famous. They think you're going to get everybody out. We lived in a project.

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