Daniel and Kelly’s Extraordinary Universe - Should the government be hiding aliens?

Episode Date: August 18, 2026

Daniel and Kelly review the recent movie 'Disclosure Day' and discuss some tough questions about knowledge and secrecy.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Guess you didn't move in on a bunch of dumb hillbillies now, did you? Listen to Our Town on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Is the truth really out there? Down here on Earth, we are slaving away, incrementally trying to. trying to unravel the secrets of the universe. What's it all made out of? How big is the universe? How does life start?

But what if aliens already have these answers? And what if they are here on Earth? And have already shared the deep secrets of the universe with members of our government. And what if the government is keeping those secrets from us? It makes me want to scream with frustration. How could they do that? Why would they? Tell me, tell me, tell me, tell me, tell me I desperately want to know. On today's episode, we'll explore this question. Is it ever reasonable for the government to keep such massive secrets from the public? Is it even plausible that they could do so? And in an attempt to stay culturally relevant, we're going to review the recent movie on the topic, Disclosure Day, by Steven Spielberg.

Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Alien Universe. I study parasites and space, and I'm excited today because I'm excited for Daniel, that we're talking about Daniel's favorite topic. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist who loves thinking about aliens. And though I've been working with and for the government my whole life, I know zero government secrets. Oh, I mean, that's kind of disappointing. Are you just not high level enough? Well, number one is I have no clearance because I have three passports. And also I have no interest in working on anything dangerous. or anything that could be used to kill people or anything like that. So that makes me not a very good repository for government secrets. Also, I'm not a big fan of secrecy, and I'm not greatly keeping secrets.

So anybody out there? I'll keep that in mind. Wait, so I've just discovered a huge hypocrisy, though, at the bottom of Daniel. And here's the huge hypocrisy. I've heard you say on multiple occasions that you would never want to work on, like, anything that could be used for weapons or anything that could be used to hurt humanity. but I've also heard you say on multiple occasions that you would sell the entire human race

for the opportunity to meet aliens. So is it just like you don't want to help your government or you just want to make sure it helps you in particular? What is the, how do you? I think that's, no, that's totally consistent. What? I believe in openness and the flow of information and that means inviting the aliens to come talk to us,

even if we can't be sure that they're going to behave themselves when they get here, and they might nuke half of Earth. from space, you know? You are nuts. I can't get around that. But here's my question for you for today. If aliens came to Earth, who do you think they would want to see first?

And before you say physicist, because I'm sure, like, try to work through, is that a selfish answer? Or do you think that's the real answer, the right answer? Well, that's a great question. And I think it's basically an impossible question because you're asking me to put myself in the minds of these beings and understand who they are, what they want, when they get here. I think it's basically impossible. So I'm going to reject the question, answer a different one, which is if we arrive at some alien planet, who would we want to speak to? Right. I think that's

the only one I could really give an answer to. And that's a good question. And I think it's probably also an impossible one because you're already like mapping human social structure onto the aliens, like even assuming that there are the same categories. Are there physicists? Are there mathematicians? Are there politicians? You know, even just assuming that there are structures you could access or even think about is already going further than I think we have the basis to go.

But all right, I've done enough rejecting the question. What would I actually say? Who would I want to talk to? I mean, I think number one would have to be linguists, right? You've got to establish communication first. You can't just say, like, bring me to your mathematicians or something. and you have no way to communicate because obviously our symbols are going to be different from their symbols. So you've got to establish the primitives.

And so I think the people who have thought about how to talk to weirdos, those are the people you want to talk to first. Not the politicians, not the mathematicians, not the gymnasts, probably not even the alien parasitologists. Oh, no. I thought we were going to be first in line. Who doesn't want to talk to the ecological parasitologists? All right. I think that's a good answer. I mean, I do. It's just like not top of the list.

I mean, probably top five. Exactly. Maybe top three. All right. Well, then my question for you, Kelly, is have you ever been in a situation where you have an important secret to keep? I guess it depends on how you define important. Sounds like a dodge. It has been important from the perspective of like my family or something. Okay. But not important from the perspective of like anybody outside. side my family would care. You know, like, I'm not supposed to tell you the topic of my next book.

I'm not supposed to say that on air. Oh, that's interesting. So you do have a secret that you're being paid to keep. Interesting. But is it important? Like, is anybody going to lose sleep for the next two years while I'm writing the book? Probably not. Probably not. So you've never been in possession of important scientific information. Like, there's a parasite that's going to ravage lettuce in the United States, but I can't tell anybody. No. No, I don't have, I'm not an important person like that. But what about you? It seems like you actively avoid being that kind of important person. Yeah, that's true. Although I have had some scientific information I was told to keep to myself. For example, before we publish big results,

we embargo them. So they're released through the proper channels and all this kind of stuff. For example, when we discovered the Higgs boson, we knew that we had it before we announced it. And that's because we wanted to coordinate with the other group and have a common announcement and not have some silly race to the podium and stuff like that. Although, I will admit on air that I broke that. I called up my buddy on the other experiment,

and we shared our information with each other. Because, you know, we'd seen several false positives. We'd seen signals for the Higgs before, which then went away with more data. And so I was like, is this one real? And the only way to really know if it's real is to see if the other independent experiment got the same result. That's why we have two independent experiments. And that's why it's important to keep them independent.

The people should not talk to each other, should not bias each other. Well, so did you ruin that then? You're asking me, did Daniel ruin a $10 billion science experiment because he was impatient? Hmm. Even if the answer was yes, you would say no. Is that what I'm hearing? No, I'll totally admit. having done that. But, you know, it was only like a week or two before the official announcement.

So it was too late to, like, really change any results or actually influence the science. And I should have waited, I admit, but I couldn't help myself. And I'm sure I was not the only one. I mean, there were situations where, like, a married couple were on opposite sides of this. I'm sure they talked about it, you know, like, how do you keep that seeker from your spouse? Like, we're about to announce the discovery of the Higgs. Hope you guys have it too. Otherwise, we're scooping you. Right. Why do you have that grin on your face over coffee? Like, yeah, if you can read your partner, you know. Yeah. And in some sense, this is an important piece of information in that we want to understand the universe and we want to do it right and we want to be responsible about it. But, you know, it's not going to like kill anybody or spread information they could be used to kill anybody or create any danger. And so the stakes are high scientifically, but not existentially. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Fair enough. All right. And so. You can't be trusted, got it.

I can be trusted to tell you all the dirt, all right? If I have a secret, you know I'm going to be telling it. Way to turn a negative into a positive. I'm just so honest that... Exactly. Okay. All right, but today the secret we're talking about is aliens. Yes.

So why are we talking about aliens today other than the fact that that is what you literally think about 24-7? We're talking about aliens today because there was a movie that came out recently, which was kind of a big deal, Stephen Spielberg's movie Disclosure Day, which is all about aliens and whether the government is hiding information about aliens and how that might play out. And it's a Spielberg movie and it's about aliens. And a bunch of listeners wrote to me and said, what do you think of the movie? And so I thought, hey, I'm going to watch this movie and let's do a little review. But also let's talk about some of the really interesting issues that are raised by the movie about government secrecy.

Should the government keep secrets? to what kind of secrets can the government justify able to keep, et cetera, et cetera. Plus, any excuse to talk about aliens. Absolutely. And you sent me an outline of this. And I wrote back and I was like, are you sure we want an episode around a movie that maybe no one's heard of? And you pretty much wrote back and we're like, are you kidding?

What, do you live on a farm in Virginia or something? Like, how disconnected are you from pop culture? Yeah, so I know nothing about this movie. And so I will play. I don't think actually I'm representing. a large swath of the population, because it sounds like everyone's heard of this movie. But anyway, I'll let you know if there's a spoiler in there because I haven't seen it. Right.

Sounds good. But let's throw to the extraordinaries and see what they have to say. So you asked them, if the government is aware of aliens, should they disclose to the public? Exactly. I was not interested in people's theories about whether the government has information about aliens, more about this question of whether they should disclose it if they did. did have it. So thank you very much to all the extraordinaries who answer these questions. And again,

if you would like to join this, you are very, very welcome. Just write to us to Questions at Daniel and Kelly.org, and you can get these questions in your inbox. In the meantime, think about it for a moment. What do you think? If the government is aware of aliens, do they have a responsibility to tell us? Here's what the extraordinaries had to say. Oh, hmm. Yes, 100%. Why should governments have all the fun?

Immediate nondisclosure to the general public would be prudent to determine if they pose any danger to Earth and or its inhabitants. People absolutely want to know. So yes, the government should disclose to the public if they are aware of alien visitors. I feel like it's less of a question of should they, then could they stop themselves? Cover-ups never go well for anyone involved. But if this is a dark forest situation, maybe keeping everyone dumb and stum is wiser. I've had top secret security clearances for many years. I believe the government does not know that aliens exist.

And if it did, it would and should disclose it. Absolutely they should disclose it to the public, assuming they have proof. I would say yes, mostly because I don't really see what's the case for not disclosing it. I mean, I don't really see the negative consequences. Okay, that was quite a range of. responses. And also, it's interesting to me to know that we have listeners who have had top security clearances. And are willing to disclose what they know on the air. Look at that. Yeah. I guess saying that you have top security clearances doesn't necessarily mean that you know

about the alien question. Like, I have people write me all the time and be like, I'm a scientist, let me tell you about parasites. And I'm like, well, not all scientists know about parasites. But anyway, so yeah, what did you think of these answers? Well, I think a lot of them are saying, tell me, tell me, right? There's a lot of self-interest in these answers. People want the government to disclose because they want to know. And it's hard to imagine the government having this information and not sharing it with us. Oh, my gosh. Imagine that scenario that's terrible. But also a lot of good arguments that there isn't a great argument for non-disclosure, which is a topic we're going to dig into in detail today. So I think these are great responses.

Well, as always. And if you want to lend your voice, you should write us at questions at Danielandkelly.org. And just let us know you want. your email address added to the list of questions that we send out approximately once a week. All right. So Daniel, I live under a rock with my fingers in my ears. I haven't heard of this movie. Give me the lowdown on this movie. So the movie is Disclosure Day. It's written and directed by Steven Spielberg. I hope you've heard of him maybe. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I was bored. I was a child in, you know, the 90s and the early 2000s. All right. And it's his response essentially to the disclosures in 2017. There were the series of articles in like the New York Times and other mainstream

media about these videos and reports by Navy pilots that they were like seeing things in the air. They couldn't explain. And there were some videos of like stuff moving in a weird way that didn't make any sense or didn't line up with any known craft or in some cases seem to violate the laws of physics, et cetera, et cetera. And there was a big hoopla about these videos. And then a lot of analysis of them and mostly they were shown to have prosaic explanations, you know, like parallax effects or camera motion creating apparent motion of the stuff on screen. We're not going to dig into that today, but that was the source material that inspired Steven Spielberg, who of course has spent his life thinking about aliens, right? E.T. Close encounters of the third kind, E.T., etc., to write a

movie about whether the government has information about aliens, because that was really the subject that was brought up by those videos, like, look, the government has a bunch of these videos, and they've released a few of them, and there's a bunch more that they didn't release. Oh, my gosh, what's in those? Does the government know about aliens? Are aliens here and the lizard people are keeping it from us? And so he wrote- That's many conspiracy theories, all in one. You're layering. It's a universe of conspiracy theories once you dig into it. And a lot of them are really fun. But this movie is a fictional story. Okay, right? It's fiction, number one. So he created his own universe. And in that universe, the aliens have definitely come to Earth, right?

There are aliens who walk among us. And in Spielberg's universe, the government has aliens, like, hanging out, you know, live aliens they talk to. Like with men in black. Yes. And they are working with these aliens to, like, create advanced technology and copy their tech. And in some cases, they, like, maybe are torturing the aliens. And so, like, the relationship between the government and the aliens is a little bit fuzzy.

But basically the government knows there are aliens and has secret alien tech that they use. Okay. I feel like torture puts you in a not fuzzy area. It's a pretty clear black and white sort of relationship. But okay. All right, I see where you going. Yeah. And there's a vast shadow government group tasked with keeping it a secret.

And they keep it a secret even from like the highest levels of government. So like the president doesn't know. There's like, you know, deep state secrets being kept from. highest level of government Congress, et cetera. And so in this movie, the good guys say, hey, the government shouldn't keep all this information secret. Everybody deserves to know about the universe that we live in. That message resonates with me for sure, right? So it was easy for you to identify the good guys. There was no ambiguity there. Yes, exactly. Also, it's pretty clear who Spielberg thinks the good guys are. And the bad guys who think they're the good guys are the guys

trying to keep it secret, right? And they think it's dangerous to share this information with the public and then it must be kept from them. And, you know, their motivations are not like, we want this for ourselves. We want to be the only ones who get to use the alien tech. It's ostensibly to protect the world from this dangerous information. But of course, you know, if they're the only ones who know, then they get to be the only ones who know and they get to be the only ones who play with the alien tech. So, you know, there's a conflict of interest there, of course. Now, the movie is not saying aliens are real. It's not saying the government is hiding aliens from us. It's putting us in a fictional universe where aliens are real and there's a struggle between elements of society

about whether or not that information should be widely known or not. All right. Well, let's take a break. And when we get back, we'll talk about whether or not we think humanity is prepared for the secret about aliens and whether or not it could be bad. I'm ready. I'm ready. Tell me, please. Daniel's ready. Calm down, Daniel. Calm down. Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Crave, Netflix, and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on Internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit. Visit bell.com for details and to check availability.

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pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, and that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. Our town is small taters by most standards, right? But to the people who grew up here, it's everything.

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Danny McBride. He loves over. Oh, that's fantastic. And you make it on, you make your own. That's great. I call him Terro Reed. It's a good name. They're all named after cast members of American Pie.

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Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back and we are talking about what might happen if a government knew that there were aliens. Would it be safe for them to tell the rest of us? Right. So let's start off by talking about secrecy in general because you might be tempted to take like a maximalist position.

or an absolute argument about this and say, the government shouldn't have secrets. Because, you know, look, the truth belongs to everybody and the government is a public institution and it's supposed to work in favor of the public and we pay for it, et cetera, et cetera. They represent us. You know, we're not in some sort of North Korean autocracy. And that sounds appealing, but it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny because, for example, you know, people have a right to privacy. You know, there's information the government has about me that other people don't deserve to know, like the details of my tax returns or my Social Security number or whatever, things that the government might need to know about me because I'm a member of society that Kelly doesn't need to know or a random listener doesn't need to know, right? Why can't I know?

What are you going to do with it, Kelly? How do I know you're not using it for nefarious purposes? Maybe I want to be Daniel Waitzid. online at least. You know, and in general, like, you do not have a right to know everything that everybody knows. You know, there are secrets within marriages that deserve to stay secret. What happens in other people's bedrooms, for example, there's not something I even want to know. And it certainly don't deserve to know.

So it's not true most generally that, like, the truth belongs to everyone. There are definitely some pieces of information that belong to certain people and not everybody has a right to know them. Right? So the maximalist like all information belongs to everybody, that doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Sure. But I also feel like there's broader geopolitical reasons why you'd want to keep secrets. Yes, exactly. It's even reasonable for the government to keep secrets from the public, right? For example, like, how do you purify uranium in an efficient way so that you can have bomb making materials? That's a really dangerous piece of information. And I don't think that everybody should know that. And I think it's good, actually, for the government to keep some secrets. Or, for example, if you could, using implements in your kitchen, develop a device capable of destroying the planet, and you knew that information, you probably should not share that information with all the planet, right?

That would be very dangerous information. And so for national security reasons, it certainly makes sense for the government to keep some secrets. It's also like, where are our troops right now? What are they doing? What are their biggest vulnerabilities? Like, that's not information that I deserve to know, even though those troops are out there in my name and protecting me. They can't protect me and they can't protect the public if their locations and their

vulnerabilities are shared. So it makes perfect sense for the government to have some secrets, right? Not controversial. Sure, but I guess I feel different about it if I'm thinking about should the North Korean government have secrets? You know, that's less good than the U.S. government having secrets. But anyway, of course, everybody's got their own side they're rooting for. Right. Exactly. And here we have an element of trust, right? We accept that the government has secrets from us. And as citizens in a democracy, we can consent to that, to this process, that the government will

decide what is safe to share and what is not safe to share. And in this case, at least we know about the existence of these secrets. Like, Yeah, we all know that there are nuclear weapons, and we know that that information about how to build them is dangerous, and we consent to that not being shared broadly, right? So we're, like, aware of the existence of the secret, and we can consent to the secret being kept. And more generally, like, yes, the government should know where the troops are and we should not. Like, we know about all these things, and we agree not only that they should be secret, but that the government should be in charge of which secrets are kept and who is told them. Right. So that's a level of trust we're putting in the government.

But I feel like you're assuming that we know of all of the categories of things that we're not being told about. But there could be categories of things that we don't know that we're not being told about. And I guess that's the point. Yes, exactly. So that's the next level, right? Are there secrets that are too dangerous for us to even know of their existence? Could there be knowledge that's so dangerous we have to be protected from being told that it exists? And that's the question of this movie, right?

Because in the movie, they know about aliens and the baddies are always saying, this information is too dangerous. If you told everybody about this, it would cause societal disruption and it would tear the world apart, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And the argument is like essentially we're like being children that need to be lied to about the reality, you know. Do they go into any more detail about like what they're worried about in particular? I feel like I'm not necessarily seeing the steps between letting people know that there are aliens and the like collapse of civilization.

Yeah, you know, I had the same reaction and we're going to dig into that in a minute. But first, I think there's more to explore about this question more generally about whether the government can keep secrets about the secrets they're keeping. You know, like even if you don't believe that the knowledge of aliens would tear society apart, can you, Kelly, imagine a secret that the government should keep them? from us, something where the knowledge would be so dangerous that even admitting exists is dangerous. All right. So you're putting me on the spot. Well, I mean, you gave some examples earlier of, you know, like, if it was possible to make,

I don't know, a nuclear weapon in your kitchen. I would not want the government to share that. Right. And I agree that the government shouldn't share the knowledge of how to build it. But the fact that it's possible, I suppose, maybe you, are you saying that even the fact that it's possible to do that should be kept secret? Yeah, I mean, I don't think I'd want the government being like, oh, hey, we figured out a way to make nuclear weapons in the kitchen. We're not going to tell you, but we're going to leave that as an exercise for the student or whatever.

So, I mean, I can imagine not wanting people to know that that is a possibility at all, for example. Yeah, that's interesting. Another category I was thinking about was panic. What information might legitimately cause panic? And you see this a lot in, like, the afterward movies that I love to watch, you know? an asteroid is going to hit the earth in five days discovers government scientist, should we tell everybody? Yeah. Well, knowing that the earth is going to be obliterated in five days probably would cause a lot of societal disruption and breakdown of law and order and stuff.

I still think we should tell everybody. People deserve to know that kind of stuff. Like, yes, maybe lawless gangs are now going to be roaming the streets with human heads on their motorcycles or whatever. But I would like to know if I'm going to die in five days and everybody I love. I think maybe a fuzzier question is like, well, what if scientists discover there's a 50% chance that an asteroid is going to destroy the planet? And then you might be causing panic for no reason, right? So these are interesting scenarios without easy answers. And I think it's a worthwhile philosophical discussion and one about democracy and representation and trust.

And do you trust the government to decide which secrets to keep? But I think the scenario of aliens, which we can circle back to your comment, doesn't really fall in that category. I mean, in the movie, they suggest that, you know, the ontological shock of learning that we're not the only critters in the universe capable of developing technology and not even the only critters on Earth because the aliens are here, that that would like disrupt society. But I don't buy that, you know. I think, yes, that would be an ontological shock. it would change our relationship with the universe, but I don't think everybody's going to be like throwing bricks through targets plate glass windows in response.

Like, does that make sense to you at all? So I agree with you, and I also feel like we should give humanity a chance to put their best foot forward and impress us as opposed to just assuming that they're going to throw bricks through plate glass windows. But, you know, maybe that's just I like to think of myself as an optimist. And yeah, it does seem like a very different kind

of question than, is an asteroid coming to kill us all? Although I can imagine, like, if an influencer, for example, you know, got word and started convincing people that, like, literally the only reason aliens would come here is if they, like, thought that we were a delicious snack and a nutrients that was missing on their home planet was found in human bodies. I mean, I can imagine people creating panic, but on the other hand, I still feel like everyone has a right to know that we are not the only life in the universe. That seems like an important. important thing for everyone to be able to, like, handle. Yeah, and that's a really good point.

I mean, the scenario where, like, look, we've just learned aliens have entered the solar system and they're going to be here in five days. That's more akin to the asteroid. Like, we don't know. Are they going to show up and shake our hands? Or are they going to nuke us from space or send us to work in the hydrogen mines? Right. That's a little scary.

But the scenario in this movie is much different from that. It's aliens have been here for 60 years. And we've been happily collaborating with them on scientific projects. in secret for 60 years since Roswell. Or we've been waterboarding them, one of the others. Yeah. And we've been torturing them, actually. So we're the baddies, right?

And so I don't think that that scenario would set off, like, mass riots or upheaval or panic. It might, you know, undermine the government. The government might be voted out of power, you know, or you might need, like, reforms if we discovered the government's been misbehaving in that way. But, you know, nobody's throwing bricks through play glass windows. in that scenario. In fact, I think it might be kind of shrugged off. Like, this would not be a massive ontological shock. Yes, it's a big update to our knowledge, but it's not like something we haven't considered. It's the subject of like a lot of movies. And there's a lot of people out

there who already believe that it's true, right? Lots of folks out there believe that aliens walk among us. So learning that that's true, it's fascinating and it's important. But I don't think it's like as big and ontological shock is like the big bang. you know, learning that the universe is expanding and was once really, really dense, or when we learned that, like, the Earth is billions of years old, or when we learned about evolution, like, these are huge ontological shocks that require us to update our knowledge of the universe and our place in it, our relationship with it, the context of our lives, all of this stuff. But there weren't, like, riots in response to Darwin or, like, continental drift theory, you know?

there are definitely like social responses, but not something that would make you think, like, whoa, humanity is not ready to know this stuff. Okay. So let's think about what is the worst thing that happened after one of those theories became popular. So like I can't say that I'm because I'm also a wet blanket. So I can't say that I've, you know, like looked up all of these and know the history of all of these right now. But like, for example, after the idea of evolution came out, eugenics followed from that idea. You know, the idea that there are some races that are more fit than other. which has no scientific basis at all,

but we convinced ourselves at the time that it did. And then we did some horrible things after that, you know, theory became public. And so on the one hand, you know, we've learned a lot. It's, you know, contributed to our understanding of the universe. But we didn't handle that information appropriately for a long time and vulnerable population suffered the most. Does that change the way you think about all of this?

Or is it just it's humanity's responsibility to handle the truth in a responsible way? sometimes we fail, but we shouldn't hide the truth. What do you think? I think we have definitely behaved badly in lots of scenarios in response to the truth, but we've also behaved badly without knowing the truth. So I think we're, I hope, we're more likely to behave well when we understand reality, when our knowledge is more aligned with the way the universe actually works. I mean, I guess it's not a big surprise to say, like,

I'm a big believer in transparency and people should know. I mean, up to like, you know, what's going to. on in random people's bedrooms. But in terms of like knowledge of the universe and the outputs of science, I think people deserve to know. And even if the consequences are like, look, society gets overhauled or changes, like that's in response to reality. It's better to live in reality than to live in illusion. So, yeah, there can be ontological shocks and some of those can be even kind of harsh and might lead to a reorganization of how we live. But then we'll living in a way that responds to the universe and not fiction. And I think that's definitely

got to be better. And I don't trust the government to make these decisions about, like, look, here's a piece of information which we imagine people might respond poorly to. Like, that's definitely overreach in my book. And if we want to think more about, like, how might people respond to this? Like, think about the way people respond to current scientific results or, you know, space exploration achievements, still a lot of people out there like deny that the Earth is around or that we went to the moon. So even if the government like produced aliens, a lot of people would be like, nah, I don't believe it. And so I don't think that it makes sense to keep this information from people. And I don't buy the argument really at all that it would lead to chaos or

riots that were somehow protecting humanity by keeping this information from us, which leads to a really interesting question, which is like, where does this idea come from that disclosure might be dangerous? Because it's definitely out there. It's a premise in this movie, and it's just sort of like stated as if it was obviously true, but your initial reaction was like, huh, that doesn't make sense, and it doesn't make any sense to me. I can't make a strong argument for it. But there is an interesting history here. And I have a speculation. So here's my theory about where this idea comes from. I think it might be a load-bearing strut in the UFO conspiracy theories, right? So people who believe that aliens are here and that the government has like recovered craft and

is like reverse engineering it in reality, not in the movie, right? Like today that there are aliens somewhere in a bunker or in a hangar owned by the government, those people have a little bit of an issue, which is like, okay, if the government has this information, why haven't they shared it? Why are they keeping it a secret? Right? Because the government shares scientific information all the time, right? I publish papers. You publish papers.

It's all government-funded research. And so they need an answer to the question why it has not been disclosed. Okay. And so if it was too dangerous, then, okay, there's your answer, right? And in this weird way, the conspiracy theories work like the lack of evidence for aliens becomes like a load-bearing part of the story rather than a gap. The fact that the government has not shared any evidence, but there are some of these suggestive hints implies that there's like a cover-up, right? And so I think it helps support this conspiracy theory to argue. that disclosure would be dangerous, and that's why they haven't told us. I personally don't think it makes a lot of sense. I'd be curious to hear from listeners who disagree with me about this, write to me and let me know why you think it might be dangerous to disclose aliens.

But I do think that it helps the conspiracy theory survive, right? Because it provides an answer to the question of why hasn't the government told us about this if they are here. And if you're thinking like, well, what if the government has, like, worked the aliens and now they have super dangerous new technology, cool. But the government could still tell us about the aliens without, like, sharing the technology. If the aliens know how to build a nuclear bomb from vinegar and baking soda, you don't have to tell us about that. Just you could still tell us the aliens are here, right? So it doesn't hold together from me. And I think it's a necessary part of this conspiracy theory survival.

That's my theory for where this comes from. I suppose I could see the argument that, like, if you're getting secrets from the aliens, it would be easier to surprise your adversaries if they didn't know the aliens existed at all, because then they wouldn't have, you know, crazy out-of-this-world technology on their mind as, like, something that, for example, the United States could have. So I could plausibly see that argument, maybe. But I feel like I have a lot of dear friends who work for the government, and it's hard for me to believe that anybody would, like, not slip up and, like, share that information that aliens exist.

Yeah, so let's stick into that. Like, is it plausible for the government to keep such a secret? And I think here it's worth doing a little bit of history and understanding where some of these theories come from. Because, you know, the government has not always behaved very well. True, true. And there have been times the government has lied to us. And so the history of the disclosure movement specifically, like in reality, not in the movie, is interesting. It comes from...

Actually, Daniel, I'm going to cut you off. We're going to take a break. And when we get back, that's when we'll hear about instances where the government has actually hidden stuff from us for at least some period of time. plus from $94 a month, price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit. Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything. If your bookshelf and your for-you page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island

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What happens when a quiet Tennessee town becomes the front line in a battle over the future of America? Developers with right-wing ties have purchased 100,000. acres of land in the area. The first thing you see when it pops up is pioneers in Appalachia. But they weren't just planning houses. We need cities on a shining hill that exemplify and embody

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Hey, this is Hayes Davenport. And Sean Clements. We host the podcast, Hollywood Handbook. Every episode we're trying to help our guests improve their careers by mainly focusing on how they can help us improve our careers. The show is famously super accessible so you can easily jump into any of our 650 episodes and understand what's going on.

We recommend some of our recent episodes with Ben Stillard. The definition of what is a movie has kind of changed anywhere too, right? What do you think it is now? It's images and words being spoken, captured by some sort of technology. Danny McBride. Oh, that's fantastic. And you make it on, you make your own. That's great.

I call him Tarot Reed. It's a good name. They're all named after cast members of American Pie. Yeah. I call, I don't, I never looked up if she was in this, but I call him Leachie Sobieski. Yeah, I don't think she was an American Pie, but I still like that. Haven't looked it up. Haven't looked it up.

She was prominent around the same time. Yeah. Then Mary Steenbergin. Why are you guys talking to me? I'm worried. I'm worried. Why are you talking so down to me that you think I don't understand your little play, play game? I just really, I get it.

I'm trying to set you up for success here. Listen to Hollywood. handbook on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. And, you know, in case you were sleeping well at night, let's go ahead and have Daniel tell us about some examples where the government at least tried to keep some secrets from us. Yeah, as a way to trace like, where does the disclosure movement come from, the people who believe that the government has alien craft and are advocating for transparency about it has interesting threads in history. And it starts with the Roswell incident. You know,

famous crash in 1947, which was not handled super well by the government. So this is July 8, 1947. And initially, there was an announcement that they had recovered a flying disc. And this was reported in newspapers nationwide, though it may have been like a misquote of the farmer. You know, who used it as an analogy. But anyway, it was reported as a flying disc. But then very quickly, the official statement was reversed. And they said, no, no, no, it was just an ordinary weather balloon. Unfortunately, this was not what was actually happening, right?

This is not an ordinary weather balloon. Years and decades later, actually, 1994, right? The U.S. Air Force revealed that it was part of Project Mogul, a then secret program that flew these long trains. of balloons carrying microphones as a way to develop technology that could detect Soviet nuclear tests. So back in 1947, they didn't want to reveal, oh, hey, this is part of a secret project of Americans, not aliens, developing these new kind of objects that can fly and listen. So they lied about it. And they said, no, no, it's an ordinary weather balloon. For 50 years. I don't think they they lied about it very well. And it, you know, created a lot of confusion. And also the initial

reports about it being a flying disc and then being labeled a weather balloon and then later admitting it wasn't a weather balloon didn't create a whole lot of credibility for the government. Yeah, I guess so if you're trying to play the devil's advocate, I guess you could say the government at least cleared up that it wasn't alien made. Yeah. And then they kept the secret that they needed to keep for the Cold War perspective. But it is amazing. It took 50 years.

I mean, you think the Soviet Union, well, I was going to say the Soviet Union fell in 91. And then just a couple years later, it became announced or something like that. He still probably didn't need the secret for that long. Yeah, I don't know. But, you know, the other part of this context is like in the 70s, the public lost a lot of faith in the government. You know, we had Nixon and Watergate and discovery that the government is spying on us or is lying to us. A lot of faith was lost in the government there. And that adds to this perception of like, hey, it's totally reasonable, actually, and not conspiracy nonsense to imagine that the government is doing nefarious,

sneaky, even illegal things because they had been, right? And so that sets the stage for this MJ12 hoax. In 1984, there was a release of these documents called The Majestic 12. These claimed later discovered to be a hoax and forgeries that there was a secret committee created by Harry Truman to manage recovered alien technology and bodies. Oh. Right. And so this was catnip for people who believed that the government was lying to us because

the government does lie to us and wanted to believe that they were aliens and the government was working with them. And so this framework, you know, the alien crashed at craft, the government had recovered them, a secret organization controls the evidence and the public is being intentionally deceived. This really sank deep into a lot of people's psyche, even though most historians and document experts analyzing it think it's very, very clear that these MJ12 papers are forgeries. They still had a vast influence on a lot of people. So for Roswell, the inciting event was the crash. But for MJ12, the inciting event was somebody forged papers and released it? Or was there? Yes. Okay. Huh. Yeah, exactly. Okay. And so then in the

90s, the term disclosure becomes widespread. And you know, we have things like the X-Files, which taps into this feeling of like, hey, there's truth out there that you don't know, but somebody does. And it's being kept from you by shadowy government operators, right? And again, look, you know, the government has behaved badly in lots of scenarios. And so there's reason to feel that way. And then there's the growth of the internet, which connects a lot of people who think these things and connects them to each other. And then it was in 2001 at an event by the National Press Club, organized by Stephen Greer. And he created a new organization called the Disclosure Project. And this helps standardize the term disclosure as a proper noun.

And so that's the beginning of like the official disclosure movement, which then blew up and became mainstream after these New York Times articles in 2017. Okay. So when I was getting interviewed for a city on Mars, and this was in like 2022, 2023, people would say to me like, well, what do you think about the recent disclosures about aliens? Do you believe that they've come to Earth? What were they talking about? Because I, again, I live under a rock with my fingers in. my ears. And so I hadn't heard about these things. What were they asking about? So they're probably referring to the release of these videos in 2017 and the articles about them. You know, there's always been discussion on the margins. But to see this reported credulously in the New York Times really made it mainstream for a lot of people. And these videos are fascinating. You know, there's the TikTok video, the Go Fast video. You should go out and watch

these things. And then you should also see the analysis of them by folks like Mick West and other people who try to understand, like, what are we seeing? But for a lot of people, these were treated as evidence that UFOs are real. Number one, you have Navy pilots who are not just, like, you know, internet cranks. These are, like, highly trained folks saying that they're seeing stuff all the time that they're not understanding. And you now have these videos from some cameras on these jets showing stuff that we can't initially explain. So the government said that they had, like, more than a hundred of these videos, and they only released a few. That's like a recipe for I want to cause problems.

Right. Well, it's sort of similar to the Roswell incident. Like, I'm sure that some of these videos reveal government secrets, you know, like, government has the technology to see this and that. They don't want to reveal that they know how to do this. They have this kind of camera that can do these kinds of things. There's lots of reasons to keep these video secrets that are not. There are aliens in them.

They could also have videos of like new, I don't know, Chinese drones that can do crazy things and maybe we don't want the Chinese to know that we know. Like, so there's lots of prosaic possible explanations for why they might keep it secret. I actually once got a phone call from a U.S. Congressperson who wanted to know like, hey, I'm hearing stuff about these videos. What does the physics say? Like, is it possible for there to be wormholes and whatever? And I was like, sure, I'll answer those, but first tell me what you see in these videos. It's like, what's there? You've seen all the videos. And he was like, yeah, there's nothing there that's exciting. It's all similar to stuff we've seen.

So I don't know if he was revealing stuff he wasn't supposed to. And now I'm revealing it. I don't know. Anyway, clearly don't tell me any secrets. And this is the point. The government's not good at keeping secrets because it tells people like Daniel. Exactly. The worst thing you could do.

So anyway, that's the history of the disclosure movement. And, you know, I want to say I don't think that the government has these secrets and is keeping them. But I do believe in disclosure. I do think the government should be more transparent. I think government secrecy has created a lot of gaps and a lot of confusion and a lot of distrust, and we would all be better off if there was more transparency. So I'm definitely pro-disclosure. And I agree with you that it's implausible for a government to keep such a secret for so long.

Like in the movie, Disclosure Day, there's this vast network. There's people who like come to work every day. There's like hundreds of people who work in this organization. How can they possibly keep this secret for so long? And in fact, the movie, I think, I'm not sure if it's intentional or not, essentially argues that it's impossible. Because the whole plot of the movie is somebody who's working on the inside decides individually and unilaterally that this isn't a secret that should be kept and they work to disclose it. And eventually that's going to happen. There's got to be a Daniel in there.

Exactly. There's a Daniel in the organization. And essentially, I think it's impossible to imagine that everybody's going to agree with the mission forever. and think about how the government has failed to keep secrets. Like when we created nuclear technology, how long did the U.S. keep that secret? It was like less than 10 years. Well, and Klaus Fuchs was already sharing the information between governments while it was happening, right? There you go. There's always going to be like a Snowden, right?

NSA mass surveillance was revealed by Edward Snowden. You know, you got examples like the Pentagon Papers and MK Ultra and stuff like this. It's hard for the government to keep secrets for very long. So the idea that the government would have a vast network of people, scientists like PhDs, and it's not that big a community. If there is a huge group of people with physics PhDs who are now working on like understanding alien technology, I would know some of them. We'd all be like, hey, where did Sally go after she got her PhD?

Oh, nobody's heard from Sally. Nobody knows what Sally's working on. Like, you know, there's not a missing community of PhDs working on this stuff. So I think disclosure would be inevitable. If the government had these secrets 80 years ago, we would know them by now. All right. So let's take a step back and think about if we have been consistent with our arguments across this. So, like, you know, we've been saying the government tries to keep secrets, but they're not really good at it.

They pretty much always, you know, it gets revealed. But like the Roswell incident took 50 years, you know? And so, like, how, what makes you confident that the government hasn't been sitting on the existence of aliens for five years? and the Daniel in their community hasn't come forward yet. Like what do you think about a scenario like that? Yeah, that's a good point. And I think you're right. I think if aliens had like teleported into the Oval Office yesterday,

we would probably not know about it yet because the government would spend some time, and I think responsibly so, trying to understand the implications of revealing this information and taking care. So I think it's possible for these secrets to be kept briefly. I think these secrets are. so shocking, and the implication is so vast that it's impossible for them to be kept for very long. And I think that a lot of this disclosure movement argues that they've been here for a while.

They've been here since Roswell. But I agree with you that it is something that could be kept secret briefly. Yeah, but I agree, something like aliens, especially because if you are the person who tells the world about aliens, you are a meet, like, your name will be remembered forever. And so I feel like there's also that, like, level on top of it, like the possibility to become. absolutely stinking famous, probably also would push you to disclose. Yeah, and I'm pretty sure our current attention-loving president wouldn't pass on that opportunity. Yeah.

And I think there's something else interesting raised by the movie. In disclosure today the movie, spoiler alert, they disclose. The aliens are real, right? The good guys win. And the way they do it is with overwhelming evidence. Not like grainy footage or even firsthand accounts from Navy pilots. Like, they bring the alien on TV. They show us an alien.

It's very clear. And I think that makes the point that when disclosure happens, it's going to have to be overwhelming so that no reasonable person can doubt anymore. And in that way, I think that this movie avoided a lot of the really interesting questions. You know, like, is disclosure actually dangerous? The movie doesn't discuss it at all. When disclosure happens, how do you deal with doubt? They avoided that by making it just overwhelming. Yeah.

You know, so the current situation that we are in where they're like, there are some hints that something weird is going on and the government is keeping some secrets and probably it's Chinese drones or whatever, but we don't know for sure. We're in an interesting situation and people have reasonable questions. And this movie doesn't address any of them at all. Okay. It just imagines a scenario where we know 100% of there are aliens and we show to the public with overwhelming data so that nobody can doubt. So in that sense, you know, to circle back to the review of the movie, like, I thought the movie was fun. It was well written.

It was well acted. It's Spielberg. He knows what he's doing. The science fiction in the movie is like very, very, very soft science fiction. You know, they use alien tech as a plot device. Anytime they want something to happen, they're like, well, maybe the aliens can just do that. And it avoids all the core interesting questions about aliens and disclosure and all these kind of stuff that we've discussed. But it was fun.

I had a good time. And it was definitely worth, you know, $12 or whatever I paid for it. As a biologist, what I want to know is what you want to know is what you did the aliens look like? Were they just like human bodies but green? What did they do? Yeah. So in this movie, the aliens are the canonical big head, big eye, no nose. Really? With like the backward legs. Yeah, there's not a whole lot of creativity there at all. I had hoped for more, but that's all right. Okay. But, you know, there's a fascinating characters, and it's a story well told, and definitely a good movie for a movie's sake. I don't think a great movie about

disclosure. I don't think it tackles these interesting questions very well, but, you know, it was fun to watch, and we got to have this fun conversation. So from that point of view, thumbs up. Okay, so then let's bottom line your opinion. So given everything that we've talked about today, it sounds like you don't think there's good evidence for aliens that we have now, whether it's behind government closed doors or out in public. What is your bottom line on, have aliens visited us yet? I think it's very unlikely that aliens, have come to Earth and the government knows about it and has been working with them and keeping that secret for decades. I just think that's totally implausible. And I don't think the government should keep that secret. I think if the government knows about aliens, they should tell us. I don't think there's a good argument for protect the public by not telling them or like release it in waves to slowly acclimatize us. Like, we're not children. You know, we don't need to be lied to about Santa Claus. I don't think that makes any sense. I think that props up UFO conspiracy theories and does more harm than it does good.

So if the government has aliens and that's their plan, I think it's a mistaken one. I think it's a good idea. So that's my bottom line. Okay. I mean, I guess I feel like if you hundreds of years ago had told people that aliens existed, that might be like intellectually catastrophic. So maybe this is the biologist in me, but I feel like, you know, we have thought of ourselves as like, oh, we're the only species that uses tools.

but like I just saw a video of a cow scratching its butt with a stick the other day. It's like we're not, I feel like over time we've become a little bit more acclimatized to the idea that like we are not quite as unique as we used to think. And I feel like maybe that opens us up to the possibility that there could be other amazing intelligent organisms out in other parts of the solar system. But again, maybe that's my biology centered opinion. And so I don't feel like we would be devastated, especially because now we know there's exoplanes. out there. There's like so much beyond our solar system that like just playing the numbers game, like so many people have heard about the Drake equation and the updates to like, you know, how many planets are out there that are inhabitable zones. I don't think it would be as

surprising to people now as it would have been hundreds of years ago. And I feel like any argument you could make about aliens causing like a panic and a collapse of society would apply less today than they might have a couple hundred years ago. What do you think? Well, I think you're right that The Dirk equation is going in the alien direction because all the updates increase the odds. But the skeptic enemy says there's still a lot of possibilities for very tiny numbers. Yes, it's true that now we know there are planets around lots of stars and a lot of those planets are Earth-like. But it still could be that it's very rare for life to begin or for life to be complex or intelligent or technological. those percentages could still be one over a trillion. We could still be alone. We have no data

about that at all. So we can't make really any scientific statement about the probability for intelligent life. That's just belief, right? That's just philosophy, that's faith, that's hope. I'm on the same side of view of those, you know, belief and hope and faith, but the skeptic in me says we don't really know. And I also wonder if we can really put ourselves in the minds of somebody a thousand years ago and understand how they would react to this knowledge. Because we see the world so differently than they do, I think it's probably impossible to honestly understand that. I did a little bit of research when I was running my book about historical writings about aliens. And I was surprised how often it came up, you know, that people imagined aliens.

Kant, for example, wrote about aliens, you know, and how they might see the world. And so I think also a thousand years ago, people were more. climatized to the world being mysterious. Like in our day-to-day lives, there's very little that happens that's un-understandable. Like, you see lightning? Yeah, we understand that. Whether it's hard to predict, but, you know, the physics is known. You look out at the night sky and we know what stars are and all this kind of stuff. There are very few actual mysteries left in your everyday world. Still lots of big questions about the universe. But day-to-day, the stuff that happens, we mostly understand it. And a thousand years ago, your day was filled with.

with mystery. Like, why does this person get sick? Spontaneous generation. Spontaneous generation, right? And, like, all sorts of stuff happened. So if somebody told you like, oh, there are critters living around that star, you might be like, yeah, cool, man, the world is weird. And I learn weird stuff every day. And none of it makes sense to me. So I think it's probably pretty hard to put ourselves in the shoes of somebody a thousand years ago, though I would love to do that experiment, to introduce an alien to Aristotle or something. You are way too comfortable with human experimentation. to return to what we were talking about at the beginning of the episode.

Are you saying you wouldn't want to hear that podcast episode where an alien and Aristotle have a conversation? I mean, you would be downloading that, wouldn't you? Yeah, yeah. No, I would want to hear that. Yes. That would be interesting. All right.

So thanks everybody for going along this ride. I do recommend this movie. If you like fun movies and science fiction and aliens, it's a good ride. But don't go into it thinking that it's a deep philosophical exploration of whether our government has aliens. And whether it actually would be dangerous for the government to tell us about it. But if you are somebody who works in the government and you have top security clearance and you know about aliens, I think you should spill the beans. Oh, yes. And you can reach Daniel at Questions at Daniel and Kelly.org.

Just right, dear Daniel, we'll know who it goes to. And thanks, Daniel, for this fun episode on aliens. And let's hope that we can host the actual disclosure on a future episode. Because you and me, we are on the same level as Aristotle. I'm sure we're going to be at the top of their list. All right. Thanks very much, everyone. Thanks everybody for listening. Please go and do us a favor and rate the show on whatever podcast app you're using.

It really helps people find us. Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is edited by the amazing Matt Kesselman. He really is a wizard. You can also find us online on Blue Sky, Instagram, and X, D&K Universe. Come engage with us. You can email us at questions at Daniel and Kelly.org. We really do want to hear from you. And you can find our website, www.

Daniel and Kelly.org, where you'll also find an invitation to join our Discord where everybody comes and talks about the amazing universe. And we also have the most amazing moderators. This is an I-Heart podcast. Thanks for joining us. If your bookshelf and your for-you page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island to serve the same level of discourse. Each week, we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and pop culture with your favorite writers, book talk creators, and plenty of overthought opinions.

Yeah, I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. Listen to Pro Society on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby. You know, I'm always searching for inspiration and useful tools to maximize joy. Like when my friend Henry Winkler offered advice to aspiring actors and really anybody hoping to stand out. You're not hired just to fill time and space. You're hired to fill the space with you. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Our hometown is not a test tube. North East of Nashville, a battle for the future of America plays out in one small town. Developers with right-wing ties have purchased hundreds of acres of land. We need cities on a shining hill. This is Our Town, a podcast about what happens when a small town becomes the site of a social experiment and fights back. Guess you didn't move in on a bunch of dumb hillbillies now, did you? Listen to Our Town on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 3 podcast.

This is a story about a horrendous situation that destroyed two families. It's a scorched earth war that shows just how far someone will go to get what they want. Cindy said, I had to choose between the truth and my family, and I had to choose the truth. Listen to Season 3 of Burden of Guilt on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast, guaranteed human.