Daniel and Kelly’s Extraordinary Universe - Should we believe any alien abduction stories?

Episode Date: May 5, 2020

Daniel and Jorge talk about how to be skeptical and open minded. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. December 29th, 1975, LaGuardia Airport. The holiday rush, parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then, everything changed. There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal. Just a chaotic, chaotic scene. In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged, terrorism. Listen to the new season of Law and Order Criminal Justice System

On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly, and now I'm seriously suspicious. Wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit. Well, Dakota, luckily, it's back to school week on the OK Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, my boyfriend's been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone.

Hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That seems inappropriate. Maybe find out how it ends by listening to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's Honey German, and I'm back with season two of my podcast. Grazias, come again. We got you when it comes to the latest in music and entertainment with interviews with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition? No, I didn't audition. I haven't auditioned in like over 25 years.

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or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, Daniel, what would you say if I told you I was visited by aliens? I'd say, what? That's not there. Why you and not me? But would you believe me? Well, it depends. Are they still at your place? Can I come over? Are you getting your car right now? If it wasn't for social distancing. Now, let's say they just left right before you could talk to them. Would you still believe me?

Well, it depends. Did you get any cool alien tech? No, they left no trace and I did not take a pick. what? Yeah, you just have to take my word for it. Well, you know, I think you're an awesome person, but I think it's probably more likely that you ate a bad banana and had a weird nap. Hi, I'm Jorge. I'm a cartoonist and the creator of PhD comics. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist,

and I sincerely hope that we are not alone in this universe. Well, you're definitely not alone because we are here for you and we are here with our podcast. Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of IHeart Radio. In which we take you on a tour of everything that's amazing and beautiful and weird and special in this universe, including the things on this planet, the things on other planets, and the whole universe sometimes. We bring the universe to you. That's right. All of the amazing things that are out there for us to discover and to see and possibly to meet one day. That's right. And sometimes we talk about how we explore the universe. We go out and discover neutron stars and crazy black

holes. And sometimes we talk about how science comes to us. Yeah, because I guess, you know, we could be the subject of somebody else's exploration or discovery. You know, we could be the aliens that other people are looking for. That's right. We are somebody else's exoplanet. But yeah, there's a big discussion online and it's been going around for years about this idea that maybe aliens and space in the universe has come to us, to visit us, and to check us out. That's right. And there's a whole spectrum of ideas here that range from, like, really interesting, totally valid scientific questions like, is there intelligent life in the universe?

Could you travel to other planets? Is that possible? And other stuff like, you know, were the Mayans influenced by alien visitation? Great. Which they were, right? Depends on whether you call the conquistadors aliens. Technically, they are aliens. millions, the original illegal immigrants.

There you go. They were undocumented for sure. Yeah, so we like to talk about space and all the things out there and real science and what physicists are actually thinking about and trying to discover and claim is true. But sometimes we also like to talk about what might be true and what people are thinking about and talking about out there. That's right, because an important part of science is keeping an open mind.

It's knowing that the universe has the prizes for us. We have been surprised many times in the history of science, discovering that the universe is much stranger and much we imagined. So it's vital to keep an open mind. But keeping an open mind doesn't mean believing everything you see and everything you hear. It means applying the scientific process and collecting evidence before coming to a conclusion. Because I think that's one thing that we try to do in this podcast, you know, that we talk a lot about ideas, what's possible, but it might not be possible. And, you know, I think we hope that maybe people out there get. a little bit of a sense of how scientists think about things and what's the right way to think about

all of these claims that are out there. That's right. That's precisely why we like taking you to the edge of knowledge. So you see what science knows, what science doesn't know, how science is trying to sort it out, how science changes its mind. Oh, maybe there aren't many other planets out there in the galaxy. Oh my gosh, it turns out there's lots of them. Science certainly can change its mind, but it's always in response to data. It's in response to evidence. It's not about wild speculation. And so while I love the idea of aliens and I would love to meet aliens and I really prefer when the aliens come if they visit me before they visit Jorge, it's important to treat this topic carefully and to deal with it from a skeptical point of view. I'll make you a pack, Daniel.

If aliens ever come to visit me, you'll be the first person I text. I'm going to hold you to that. Maybe after I post it on Twitter, then I'll call you. Your wife is going to be like, aliens came to the house and you texted Daniel first. But, you know, there are lots of reports out there about alien visitation. And people have written to us asking us to talk about the claims of Bob Lazar in Area 51 after he got a lot of attention on other podcasts. And we've talked recently about how the Navy has video of weird objects doing things that we don't understand in the sky. So today on the podcast, we'll be tackling the question. Should we believe alien abduction stories?

And this question is fascinating and it's important because if aliens are visiting the Earth, then boy, that's a big deal. But it's only a big deal if it's true, right? Aliens existing and visiting the Earth is fascinating and exciting, but only if it's not just a science fiction story. Yeah, you know, I feel like maybe that's something that gets lost a little bit in these crazy stories is that it's not that somebody got abducted, it's that there are aliens. I don't care what happened to you in that ship. I just care that there are aliens. Yeah, you know, they actually exist and they're here. And we are not alone in the universe.

That's a huge headline. That is a big headline, and that's exciting. And I think another common misimpression is that people think the scientists don't want to believe these stories. Like, I desperately want to believe these stories. If you met aliens and it really happened, I want to know. I want to go see all the details. I want to learn everything about it. But only if it's true.

You would love for these stories to be true. Wow, absolutely. Like, I do not wish, you know, March from Kansas to have an unpleasant experience on the alien ship, but I do wish aliens would come and visit the earth. I want these stories to be true. I want, but I read plenty of science fiction. I don't need more fiction, right? These stories have special power only if they are real.

Interesting. Well, today we're going to talk about a couple of the more famous stories of alien abduction and talk about what we know about these stories. and also we'll talk about whether or not it's physically possible or impossible for alien life to visit us. And then at the end, Daniel has an interview with a professional skeptic about these topics. That's right, because we want to teach you how to listen to these stories, how to read one of these stories and ask the right questions. So you can walk that fine line, staying open-minded while also staying skeptical.

Yeah, so as usual, we were wondering if people out there believe these stories about alien abduction or if they believe that they should believe them. And so as usual, Daniel went out there on the internet this time and asked people if they thought they should believe alien abduction stories. So thank you very much to everybody who volunteered to folks who also went out and did their own interviews. You'll hear in some of the following snippets, Darcy from Western Australia, interviewing her housemates about these questions. No kidding. You farmed out the question portion of the podcast. That's genius.

It was her idea. Thank you very much, Darcy, for taking the initiative. So before you listen to these, think about it for a second. Do you believe alien abduction stories? And if not, why not? Here's what people had to say. No, I don't know. I think that would be...

If we had enough evidence, absolutely. But I think, no, normally there's really... It's really, you know, the images are too blurry or, you know, the stories have holes and stuff. Unfortunately, because I would absolutely love to see aliens. I imagine the first alien... in abduction would not be believed. It would take several other than abductions before we start believing that it's happening.

I find it difficult to believe that alien abductions have happened. I think it's extremely likely that they haven't. But alien abduction stories are clearly important. I don't think so really. It would be very unlikely for aliens to visit us and only a couple people realize it. Yes, absolutely.

Yeah, because we're not sure that aliens are real, but we might. No. We haven't discovered it. So, yeah. It's almost 100% sure that there is other life out there, but then again, it's also almost 100% sure that we're never going to find it. Some people say that they have seen the military sneaking in the alien bodies, so it could be possible, some of them, but just be careful who you're believing. I don't know that alien abduction stories have anything to do with, like, actual alien life. I think you could both believe in the very strong possibility of aliens existing, and even in a possibility of first contact.

But I think alien abduction stories, I've just heard a lot about it being, like, a psychological, neurological phenomenon. So I think it's more about what the brain does and reacts and when it doesn't really understand what's happening and then attaches meaning to it. after the fact? I guess maybe because you always want to try and give people the benefit of the doubt but then again an extraordinary

claim requires extraordinary evidence. No, I don't really believe any of them. I do reserve judgment on UFOs and that kind of thing but I can't really see aliens doing what people claim have been done to them. I am not too sure. I am very skeptical of these stories

partly because it doesn't really make sense where aliens just come, probe a couple of people, and not do much. And also, quite a few of these aliens are quite human-like. So you'd expect them if they're proper alien life to be quite different. I don't think so. My understanding of the distances and the speed limits that all beings have to abide by means that it's too unlikely. Not unlikely that aliens exist,

but unlikely that they can get to us. All right, a lot of awesome answers here. A lot of people are skeptical, and a lot of people think that it might be a possibility. Yeah, and you can hear people sort of grappling with two different questions. One is, could aliens exist? Could there be intelligent life out there in the universe?

Is it possible? Is it possible from that point of view? And then are any of the stories we've heard credible, which are really two very different questions. I see. And I think that's a really important distinction for our listeners to keep track of, you know. There's a question of, is it possible? And there's a question is, should you believe the person on the street who says they've seen aliens?

That's right. And a lot of the discussion in this space is dominated by a few alien abduction stories that really sort of penetrated the cultural zeitgeist. Yeah. So take us back, Daniel. Because I imagine that alien abduction stories haven't been around that long. Like, were they around in Victorian times or in the Middle Ages? Probably not, right?

No, they've only cropped up in the last, you know, 50 or 100 years. And there's a sort of fascinating history of the psychology of them. You know, often they tend to be right on the edge of whatever technology we have available. So 50 years ago, people were taking fuzzy pictures. Now we have much better cameras. They're still taking fuzzy pictures of flying saucers. How convenient. Exactly.

It's like I have a retina, you know, 3,000 megapixel camera on my phone. but I saw the alien and I just happened to have a Polaroid camera with me. Yeah, or the aliens know how good our cameras are getting and now they're getting more slippery, right? They're harder to photograph now that we have better cameras or something. They can hack our filters. I think it really says something about human psychology that these stories have cropped up recently

and that they're so pervasive and so widely believed. All right, so take us back to the first of these stories. These started kind of in the 50s, right? Yeah, so one of the first stories that really made wave, in modern culture comes from Betty and Barney Hill. And these were a couple driving home late one night. And, you know, they probably should have pulled off and stopped in a hotel, but they decided to drive through the night.

And while driving late at night, like three in the morning, while they're retired, they saw some weird lights in the sky. And, you know, they saw lights that they couldn't understand. And then they stopped the car and they saw other lights they couldn't understand. But at the time, they just sort of drove home, had some weird dreams, and shrugged it off. And then it was two years later, under hypnosis, that they recovered memories of having been taken into a ship

and having all these really specific experiences, some of them quite traumatic and intimate. Wow. And they correlate with each other? Like they both had these hypnosis interviews and they matched? So I like what you're doing. Immediately you're asking good questions, right? Like, how do we understand whether these stories are real or just made up?

And so, yes, a lot of the details from their two stories match, But, you know, they had two years between these supposed experiences and this hypnosis when they talked about what happened that night to get their stories to sort of align mentally. And, you know, the important thing to understand is, like, we don't know whether Betty and Barney Hill are being insincere. They can completely believe these stories. They can be a completely honest recounting of what they thought they experienced and also not necessarily be true. Right, right. Because a human brain is a weird thing. The human brain is a weird thing.

And people have driven down that road since, and it's not that hard to put together another explanation. Like there are some weird lights on the tops of mountains, which if you're driving late at night, appear and disappear as they go behind trees and look a little strange. And there's a motel with a big glowing orb on top of it. It's actually a jackal lantern. That looks like an alien ship. Yeah, yeah. And there were TV shows that came out during that time that have depictions of aliens,

and their depiction on those TV shows aligns pretty well with what this couple is describing. And so it's not that hard to put together like a pretty prosaic explanation for what happened. I wonder if it had something to do with these TV shows cropping up, you know? I'm sure it does.

And this whole interesting research in psychology about how this happens. And the expert we're going to talk to later, Ben Radford, his background is in psychology because one of the questions you ask when you talk to people is like, well, why do you believe this? And you sort of unravel

how they came to believe this thing. And the key thing to understand about this story is that there is zero physical evidence that this happened. They don't have anything they can point to that's concrete that proves that this happened. It's a story that they are telling. It's a compelling story. It's a fascinating story, but it's a story.

I see. They don't have like an alien hospital tags in their wrist. And, you know, the problem is that they started telling this story years after the event supposedly happened, which makes physical investigation much more difficult. And, you know, she talks about the dress that she was wearing on that night and claims that there was weird powder on that dress. And later people went and looked at the dress and, yes, there is a weird powder on it. But it's not necessarily like clearly an alien powder could certainly just been mold or mites or any sort of thing.

I see. So this was the first, kind of the first alien abduction story? Not the first person to claim to be abducted by aliens, but the first one to gain sort of wide cultural knowledge, sort of became the canonical. alien abduction story. And when you have a situation where a story rests solely on an anecdote told by somebody, then you have to wonder also about their particular credibility, right? Like, if there is no physical evidence and there are other prosaic explanations, then you have to wonder, like, should we believe a story told by this person? And that becomes uncomfortably a little bit personally, dig into that person's background and try to understand whether they've

told similar stories, whether they're credible in other parts of their lives, etc. I see. And let me does this take place somewhere in rural America out in a cornfield? Not in a cornfield, but yes, out in the dark woods. I guess if you're an alien and you're looking for humans to fish out, you probably wouldn't go to New York City, would you? I think they have a lot of humans in New York City, actually. Yeah, it would be more of a buffet, yes. And you might fit in better. I mean, I don't think anybody would bad an eye on an alien walking down the street of Manhattan, right? Another reason to be skeptical. So that's kind of the seminal, maybe the seminal cultural alien abduction story, but then

there's also this character, Bob Lazar, who's been sort of in the news recently, but he's also kind of one of the original alien conspiracies. Yes, Bob Lazar, and he's also wonderful at weaving a tale. Like, the things that these stories have in common is that they are fun to listen to

because you're excited, right? You want them to be true. You want to believe it. Yes. They're telling you the story you want to believe. It's not necessarily like a malicious con, but it's the reason that people are receptive is that they want to believe. these stories and so it's kind of like why we'd go to movies we kind of want to believe these stories yeah you want to suspend disbelief for a moment and be wrapped up in a universe where aliens can come and

visit and teach us crazy things about science okay so what's bob lazar's story and his background bob lazar is basically the person who began the whole area 51 craziness no kidding yeah in 1989 he claims to have been working at area 51 where he was reverse engineering alien crafts captured by the military. What? Yeah. Yep. And he talks in a very scientific sounding manner about all the technical details of it. And I think this is why he gains a lot of credibility among the media and among the general public is that he sounds like he knows what he's talking about. He talks about anti-matter reactors, element 115, wave guides for gravity waves. Now, if you know any physics at all, everything he says sounds just like word salad. Like it doesn't actually make any sense,

but it's very effectively science-y. Kind of like this podcast sometimes. No, it's like a lot of science fiction. You're like, I'm watching that show devs. It's a lot of fun, but all the science, and it sounds like it was just sort of put in a random word generator and they press the button 10 times. You know, and it makes for very effective sounding science,

but it's not actually a compelling story, if you understand it. Well, what's his background? Is he sort of an engineer, actually, the trained, and are the records of him working in the military? Well, that's sort of the fascinating question, because he claimed to have gone to MIT and be working at Los Alamos and all this stuff. But the records don't really back that up. You know, MIT says they have no records of him studying there.

And he wasn't actually working at Los Alamos or he was working for somebody who was working for somebody who was near Los Alamos, you know. Oh, I see. He has a contractor for the contractor who worked in Area 51. And you might think, well, who cares? Like if the guy has bits of alien craft, it doesn't really matter if he went to MIT or Bob's College of Knowledge. right? And of course, it doesn't matter, except that he doesn't. He has no evidence. He has nothing he can point to. All he has is his story. And so again, his personal credibility is quite important. Right. Because if you're going to believe him, you have to just trust this guy, Bob.

I see. It's kind of like the boy who cried wolf. If you lie once, then nobody's going to believe you afterwards. Yeah. And so there's been a lot of public scrutiny of his background. And, you know, he has a revolving series of stories. And I've seen documentaries and listen to interviews from the guy. And he's a very good speaker and he's very good at telling stories. I wish I was as good at weaving a tale as he was. But in the end, you need more than a tale, right? You need some documentation. I see. You could just be a talented storyteller. Doesn't mean that it's true. And he's got another level to the story, which is like he has a reason why he has no evidence. The reason he has no evidence is this conspiracy theory to cover up this

entire thing. I see. That's where this like, the government went in and erased his MIT, you know, records yeah and the reason he has no bits of the alien craft is because it was all you know behind the fence and secure areas of military controlled area 51 and so he has a story and then he has a story why he doesn't have to back up his story and i guess my question for him would be you know what are the first 50 areas that's like what are the first 181 blinks you know like yeah there you go what was covid 1 through COVID 18 you know yeah Yeah, very important questions that my mind goes to immediately. I don't know.

I mean, if Area 51 has aliens in it, you know, area 1 through 5, wow. It was 52. Yeah, right. If aliens are prioritized in order 51, what's number one? What is number one? They probably have a black hole in there somewhere. Oh, my goodness. All right.

Well, these are all really, you know, compelling and interesting stories, and they've been in the zeitguise for a long time and in culture. But I guess the question is, is that possible? Is it possible for aliens to have come visit us? And so let's get into that. But first, let's take a quick break. December 29th, 1975, LaGuardia Airport. The holiday rush, parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then, at 6.33 p.m., everything changed.

There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal. Apparently the explosion actually impelled metal glass. The injured were being loaded into ambulances, just a chaotic, chaotic scene. In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged, and it was here to stay. Terrorism. Law and order, criminal justice system is back. In season two, we're turning our focus to a threat that hides. a threat that hides in plain sight that's harder to predict and even harder to stop listen to

the new season of law and order criminal justice system on the iHeart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts my boyfriends professor is way too friendly and now i'm seriously suspicious oh wait a minute sam maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit well dakota it's back to school week on the okay story time podcast so we'll find out soon This person writes, my boyfriend has been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now, he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Now, hold up.

Isn't that against school policy? That sounds totally inappropriate. Well, according to this person, this is her boyfriend's former professor, and they're the same age. And it's even more likely that they're cheating. He insists there's nothing between them. I mean, do you believe him? Well, he's certainly trying to get this person to believe him because he now wants them both to meet. So, do we find out if this person's boyfriend,

really cheated with his professor or not. To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Imagine that you're on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this. Attention passengers. The pilot is having an emergency and we need someone, anyone, to land this plane. Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control. And they're saying like, okay, pull this, and so this, pull that, turn this.

It's just, I can do my eyes close. I'm Mani. I'm Noah. This is Devin. And on our new show, no such thing, we get to the bottom of questions like these. Join us as we talk to the leading expert on overconfidence. Those who lack expertise lack the expertise they need to recognize that they lack expertise. And then, as we try the whole thing out for real.

Wait, what? Oh, that's the run right. I'm looking at this thing. Listen to No Such Thing on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, Daniel, are alien abductions even physically possible, according to science? Well, let's break it down piece by piece, right? Let's talk about whether aliens could exist. You know, one of my favorite topics, something we've talked about on the podcast before.

And it's essentially an open question, right? We don't know what the ingredients of life to start are. We don't know what's necessary for intelligent life to get sparked. We don't know how likely intelligent life is to lead to technological life that we could communicate with or understand or could travel the galaxy. So it's a huge series of just question marks. And they range from like zero possibility to pretty likely. Yeah, you could imagine a universe in which it's very unlikely,

like one in a trillion planets has intelligent life on it. But in that universe, the life on that one in a trillion planet is probably going to ask, you know, are we alone? Is there anybody else out there? And so that could be us. On the other hand, you could also imagine a universe in which one out of every 10 planets has life on it and one out of every 10 of those has intelligent life in which case of the galaxy is teeming, absolutely teeming with intelligent life.

Because the thing we do know is that there are lots of. of planets out there. The average star has many planets around it. And the average star has like at least one Earth-like planet. And so there are lots of habitable worlds out there. And because there are lots of planets out there, the sort of the denominator is very large. And so you don't need life to be very probable per planet for it to happen a lot in the galaxy. Right. And I think for me, the biggest stumbling block is the distances to other stars. Like, you know, for me, it's like, why would an alien species come here? Because it's so far away from everything else. I mean, what could we possibly have that's so enticing that they couldn't get anywhere else or make on their own?

That's a good point. I mean, we don't have unique resources here, right? Everything we have on Earth is very prevalent everywhere in the universe. Yeah. Water, you know, iron, uranium, all these things are everywhere in the universe. You could come and get most of the stuff just in the asteroid belt. So if they're just looking for raw resources, they wouldn't even stop by the Earth. Yeah, yeah.

And, I mean, also we're talking about huge distances, right? like millions of light years away, you know? That's a long way to cross just to sort of like come and say hi or abductus. If you're talking about intergalactic aliens, and yes, there are millions of light years away, our galaxy is 100,000 light years across, which is still really big, and the nearest star is just over three light years away.

So even if we were lucky enough that our neighboring star had life on it, it would take years for light to travel from that star to here. Right. And that's going at the speed of light. That's going at the speed of light. You'd have to invest three years going at the speed of light just to get here. I'm just saying I wouldn't make that drive. You don't think we're worth it?

I would be like, can I call you instead? You know, can we FaceTime? Well, let me make the opposite point. I think if we knew that they were aliens around Proxima Centauri, the nearest star, I would be 100% in favor of sending people there. I see, but not you. Not me. No, God, I got stuff to do.

Well, there you go. That's what I'm saying. Who would want to go? there. I'm sure we could find volunteers. I guess Bob. Bob Lazar, yeah, he wants to catch up. Wrap him in. Put him on a rocket.

I'm sure we could find volunteers to go to Proxima Centauri. But, you know, the likelihood is that if there is life in the galaxy, it's not that common. And so probably they would have to travel from much further away, you know, 50, 100 light years. And so we're talking travel times in the centuries. Yeah, and that's going at the speed of flight. Is what you mean?

Like, most likely you can't go half as fast as that. then it would take hundreds of years. And that's sort of terrifying because then you can imagine a universe with lots of intelligent life in it, but it's all isolated, like these little islands of life wondering about who else is out there in the universe and never meeting each other. That's sort of sad. Well, that's why they invented FaceTime, Daniel. I don't think my data plan covers that.

There's no signal past Jupiter. No, but there's a loophole, right? There are ways to get across the galaxy. we think maybe possibly without breaking the rules about the speed of light and without spending years and years to get there. If maybe aliens somehow invented warp drives or wormholes? Yeah. We don't know, but we think theoretically that wormholes are possible.

And we think the concepts behind warp drives are sound. We don't know if anybody could ever actually build one or make it practical or if wormholes are stable or if you can manipulate them or anything. But, you know, imagine. aliens figure this stuff out. We don't have a physics reason to say it's impossible. It could be easy for them to drop in and say hi or grab people. It could be, yeah. So to imagine that aliens visit Earth, all you need to do is speculate that there are aliens in the galaxy, which again, we can't say there aren't, right? And it certainly

could be the case that there are intelligent technological extraterrestrials in our galaxy and that they have a way to get here. And again, we can't say that they do, but we also can't say that they don't, right? Like, it's possible that they could build wormholes and warp drives. Physics doesn't say it's impossible. Physics can't say it's impossible. But you also can't say that it's likely or that it's a sure thing. We can't really say anything about how likely it is, but we can't rule it out, which means, hey, keep an open mind. That's why I'm hopeful. You know, I'm hopeful that the aliens do figure out warp drives and they come here and they tell us all about it. Because you don't want to do it yourself. That's what I got grad students for. Some problems. The grad students do,

some problems I'm counting on the aliens. You want like Grubhub for aliens. Like just dial them out on your app and they'll show up at your door. I want Amazon to include alien technology. Oh, there you go. Amazon Prime Alpha Centauri. Deliveries may be delayed. Due to the limitations of physics.

All right. Well, I think keep an open mind is always a good idea and always a good philosophy to have about everything in life. But also, I think another good philosophy is to be skeptical and to, you know, don't take things at face value and to ask questions, you know, probe into it. That's right. And so to get a better handle on how to do that, I talk to somebody who has a lot of experience listening to these kinds of stories, examining them with an open mind, but also with a scientific mindset. And so Daniel talked to Ben Ratford, the deputy editor of Skeptical Inquirer. Now, is that another offshoot of Enquirer magazine? It is so not National Enquirer.

I feel like they could have chosen a different name, so they're not associated with the prime publication for alien abduction stories. Well, Skeptical Enquirer is a wonderful magazine. I read it a lot growing up. You did, really? I did, yeah. It's put out by the Center for Inquiry, which believes in asking questions and making rational decisions, which is especially important in this time. And they put out this magazine where people tackle questions like, you know, somebody claimed paranormal ability. what do we actually know? How could you investigate it? Or people do experiments studying the paranormal

or Bigfoot or alien abduction stories. And they try to ask these questions from a skeptical mindset and also with an open mind. Wow, cool. So did Ben define what it means to be a skeptic in the interview? Yeah. So listen to this interview. I had a lot of fun talking to Ben. So here's Daniel talking to Ben Radford of Skeptical Inquirer magazine. My name is Benjamin Radford. I am a author and deputy editor of Skeptical Enquirer. science magazine and folklorist and investigator slash researcher. So I sort of have many different hats. As I was growing up, I would read these fascinating stories about, you know, the Roswell crash and just, you know, crazy wild things and crop circles and ghosts and psychics and all sorts

of, it was very heady stuff. And I loved it and I was fascinated by it. But as I read more and more of the books, I realized that there was very little actual investigation. There was lots of, you know, they say that and it is said that stories and you know an anonymous source once said that blah blah blah happened and i'm like okay well how do you know that you know i'm not saying that's wrong i'm just asking how you know that and how i as a reader am supposed to believe that right and so for you the reason the mystery is compelling is because you want to know if it's true and so you want to hear about the investigation of you want to dive into it not just hear the story is that right exactly and so you know, for me, it's a matter of wanting to uncover the truth, wherever the truth may lie.

And if, you know, this is why I investigate a wide variety of so-called mysterious or unexplainable claims, ranging from alien abductions to ghosts and what have you, is because they're inherently fascinating topics and we can apply science to them. And that's what really intrigued me was trying to connect the two. On one hand, we have the scientific process and the ways of learning about the world and, you know, technology and, you know, looking at, making telescopes and microscopes and using methodologies to understand how the world works around us. But then, on the other hand, we have these sort of wild, fantastic, crazy, wild claims about, you know, aliens and visiting things, things like that. And I wanted to try and connect the two and say, okay, well, we, we have

this amazing method of learning about the world through science. How do we apply that to these mystery. Well, I'm always telling our listeners that we should keep an open mind about new crazy-sounding science ideas because the universe is kind of bonkers, and the kind of stuff that has turned out to be true are things that would seem fantastical a hundred years ago. So when you look into a claim of alien visitation or paranormal or something, what is your goal? Are you looking to debunk it? Are you hoping that it's true? What is your end goal there when you begin an investigation? Well, my goal is always to, ultimately, is to find out what the truth is.

I want to know. Again, I love a good story. We all love a good story. But when I hear a good story or an interesting story, I want to go a step further. I don't just want to be entertained by the story and think, wow, that was crazy. That's wild. I also want to say, okay, but is it all so true? I want to take that extra step.

But that extra step involves investigation, involves research, involves applying lots of different disciplines to it. And if extraterrestrials truly are visiting Earth and. And, you know, making symbols in cornfields and abducting people and implanting things in them and doing all these experiments, things like that. This is important to know. This is not a trivial issue. Right. These are opportunities to learn something about the universe, not just to tell a compelling story. Absolutely.

Absolutely. And so part of my role as an investigator is to take things seriously and to not just be dismissive. So then what is the process? How does one apply open-minded? skepticism to a crazy sounding story, a UFO abduction story or Bigfoot or whatever. How do you do that? Well, there's a couple ways. I actually wrote a book on this, actually, titled Scientific Parano Investigation, How to

Solve Unexplained Mysteries, came out in, like, 2011 or something. And I talked about that in the book. And, you know, one of the goals, one of the first steps is to basically establish the journalistic basics. So, you know, who, what, where, why, when, and how. And some of those are more difficult than others, right? So, you know, it's easy to find out where something happened and to whom it happened. It's much more difficult to know what happened or how it happened.

But the first step is to establish the basics. Under what circumstances did this happen? Where were you? Where other people around? What time of day is it? Was it daytime, nighttime? What else was going on? The circumstances are really important to understanding the context and what might have happened.

It sounds almost like the approach that a detective would take in trying to solve a murder. You know, look for other stories, make sure they fit together. find physical evidence if it's available, but try to understand the simplest, compelling story that explains everything and can be corroborated. Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, the investigative process is exactly the same. Whether you're investigating a homicide,

whether you're investigating an alien abduction case, or anything else, the basic principles are the same. Establish the facts, see how those facts corroborate with other facts, and look for additional evidence. So then what is a standard of evidence? Like, what accumulation of evidence would convince you that aliens were visiting Earth? Well, again, it depends on the specific claim.

You need something more than what's usually offered, which is experience, which is anecdotes. And this is part of the problem, is that the bulk of the evidence that's offered for these phenomena are people's reports, their experiences, their memories. You know, I was walking through the woods,

and I saw this weird light in the sky, and it zoomed off. And, I mean, I've had people come up to me and tell me that, and they look at me like, well, what was it, Mr. Investigator? I'm like, I don't know. Don't you have a catalog of all possible aliens in your brain? You can just refer to it.

I mean, I wasn't there. And so I have to explain to people. It's like, you know, I'm not saying you're wrong. It's entirely possible that you saw that. And I have a degree in psychology, and I'm very familiar with all that. So the question then becomes, what did they experience? And what's the best explanation for that experience? So a lot of our listeners have written in because they've heard stories told by Bob Lazar on well-known podcasts about his.

about his experiences and his claims about traveling on alien ships and interacting with aliens. For a well-known story such as this, is there anything that you can do to grab onto it, to evaluate the story that he tells, to give us a sense for how likely it is to be something real or just some crazy experience he had? Sure. Well, you know, Bob Lazar and his claims about Area 51 are interesting, I guess. I'm trying to think about it of all the words that are running through my mind. And, you know, one thing about alien stories and UFOology is that there's a strong element of conspiracy theory in them. And you don't find this in many other topics.

I mean, there isn't a huge notion about conspiracies regarding Bigfoot, for example, or regarding psychics or what have you, Locknest Monster. But in UFO reports and alien abductions, there's a very clear and very strong undercurrent of conspiracy theory. And one of the elements of conspiracy theories is that the people, to believe in them say well I can't give you the evidence to prove it because it's being hidden from me right that's basically they're they're setting up an excuse a reason why they can't give evidence you know if someone comes to me and says there's an underground alien base in this in this place and there's alien

bodies there and I say well that's an interesting idea what's your evidence they say well I can't give you the evidence obviously because it's conspiracy they're being it's being hidden from me and the fact that there is no evidence is proof of the conspiracy right right right I what am I supposed to do with that. So it's the sort of self-reinforcing thing, and that's exactly what happened in the case of Bob Lazar. So in the case of Area 51, it's an interesting blend, right? Because Area 51 exists. It is, it's known. You can drive by there. I've been there. You can see on satellite maps. There's photographs. So it is an actual place. It's not imaginary. It's not a conspiracy. It's real

place. The question is, not whether the location is real. The question is, what goes? on there? Well, it's a military base and they test technology and secret planes and designs and spy technology and that's what they do there. And the government and the Pentagon has a vested interest in not letting our enemies know exactly what technology we have. And so in a sense, there's no real mystery there. So again, the fact that the government has a place that the public isn't allowed access into should not be surprising. There are national labs across the country. I live within about 10 miles of one. I can't just wander in there and ask to look at their stuff. Right. And it makes it the perfect place to tell a story about which you can't provide

any evidence. Exactly. Yeah. So anytime that you have a vacuum of information, conspiracy theories will fill it. Right. So anytime that someone said, no, you can't, you know, I can't give you all the information. Like, well, why not? Well, even when you explain to them, why, why not? Like, well, yeah, but what are they really hiding? Right. It's in the case of of Lozar, he appeared in shadow and silhouette on a television show saying that he had helped other scientists study crash flying saucers on top secret projects. And he told this whole story. And of course, it was a sensational story. You had this guy like, well, I'm a scientist. I can't tell you my name, but I'm a scientist and I saw alien bodies and this, that, and the other.

And of course, the public was amazing, like, wow. And it's a wonderful story because who wouldn't want to investigate alien craft? Like, as a scientist, I would love to find out the physics behind, you know, interstellar transport, et cetera, et cetera. It's so compelling. Yeah, yeah. Who wouldn't want to be part of this, right? And then, you know, it gets into, you know,

talking about flying saucers and three to four foot tall alien grays and this whole thing. And, you know, after a while, you know, so, of course, it caused this big stir in the UFO community. But after a while, people are like, well, hold on. Who exactly is this Bob Lazar? Well, it turned out that he'd actually faked most of his credentials. He claimed to have worked at MIT.

MIT said they never heard of him. Las Alamos National Lab said he worked there, but he didn't do anything classified. His descriptions of what he saw there were pseudoscientific. I mean, you know, so scientists who work with aircraft would read his description and say, that's not how that works. I don't know what you're, this is not you're, it's like you're describing some fantasy land. Yeah. And again, so soon after Lazar's story was made public, both skeptics and believers looked into his background and said,

this guy is not credible. I mean, it's an interesting story. and you can see why it would grab the public's attention. But when you dig into it, he offered no evidence. And what evidence he did offer turned out to be largely fabricated in terms of background. And unfortunately, his background does come into play because this entire story is an anecdote that he is telling. If he had hard evidence of wave guides and alien bodies, nobody would really care about whether he went to MIT or whether he worked for Los Alamos or what his favorite color was. But since everything he's producing is just his story, then, of course,

his character and his credibility is all that can be investigated. Exactly. You make exactly the right point. If you have the evidence, then you don't need to make up a story. Yeah. If he had good evidence that there were crashed bodies and in Forteol alien grays and this and that, then it wouldn't matter whether he was some stay-at-home dad or not. In your view, what's the sort of most common prosaic explanation for an alien visitation or an alien abduction story?

Well, that's a good question. And it really depends on what exactly you're talking about are the two. So, for example, if you're just looking at UFOs, and just to be clear, UFOs absolutely exist. I just want to be up front about that. UFOs do exist. UFOs, of course, meaning unidentified flying objects. That is, something in the sky that someone can't identify. Right.

They're all over the planes, right? Just because you see something flying in the sky doesn't mean you know what it is. And so if you just take it literally, all it means is that something was flying in the sky day or night, that for whatever reason, the viewer doesn't know what. what it is. Well, yeah. Why would they know what that is? Is it a satellite? Is it a comet? Is it a plane? Is it a drone? Is it a helicopter? It could be any number of things. The logical lapse here. The logical error is what's called argument from ignorance. Basically, it's the idea that I don't know X, so Y must be true. Right? So, you know, I don't know what's going on at Area 51. So Bob Lazar must be right that there's

alien bodies. I don't know what that light in the sky is. Therefore, it must be alien spacecraft. That's not how that works. Again, that's a logical fallacy. It's a very common one, but it's a logical fallacy nonetheless. And so, again, it depends on what exactly you're talking about. So there are lots of things in the sky, both day and night, that the average person just walking down the street or camping in the woods at night might not recognize. People have cited Venus. There's weather balloons. There's helicopters. There's oddly shaped clean. clouds. There's airplanes. I mean, there's, there's any number of things in the sky. And just because from one particular vantage point, a given person can't identify it doesn't

mean anything. Then the other question is in terms of the abductions. And the, the abductions are a sort of a more complex matter, right? Because people that are claiming to have been abducted by aliens, that's a whole different, that's a whole different subset, right? They're not just saying, I saw something weird in the sky. I think it's a alien craft. They're saying, aliens came to me and, you know, did things to my body that took me up to a different planet, to their spacecraft. Maybe they probed me, maybe they left an implant in me and things like that. So it's a much more elaborate story. It's not something you could misunderstand if it really happened, right? This is not just lights in the sky. Right. This is a very intimate experience. Exactly.

It's much more complicated and much more intimate. And in some ways, should be much more amenable to investigation, right? I mean, anybody can say they saw something zooming across the sky in a weird light, right? There's not much you can do with that. If someone says that, you know, they were in their house last August 10th, and spacecraft came over their backyard, an alien beam shot down, and the two entities looked like gray aliens, sort of, you know, big eyes, round oval eyes, came in and took them and be beamed them up to the spacecraft.

There should be evidence for that, right? There should be neighbors who saw this UFO land in the backyard. There should be evidence that something was there. And what you find is that when you're looking at alien abduction specifically, typically they are only recovered later on. So this is where we get into psychology. We get recovered memories. So usually in these cases when people say they were abducted by aliens, it's not like this happened last night and they report to the police or somebody else the next day. Instead, it's that months or years, or in some cases, decades later, they go to a UFO conference or they go to a hypnotist or a therapist, someone who sort of says, I'll relax you, I'll hypnotize you, and these memories come out, and they start giving these elaborate stories of what had happened to them months or years earlier.

And the problem there is that then you get into memory, you get into psychology. And we know for a fact from decades of research that memory is fallible. People don't remember things all the time. People misremember things. People misperceive things. In some cases, people do what's called confabulation, where they misremember something they saw in a film or in a TV show or something that someone told them, and they mistake that for their own experience. And I want to be very clear of this doesn't mean they're crazy or stupid. This happens to everyone.

This is a common, well-known psychological phenomenon. So this is not unique to alien abductees. It's something that we all do. It's just that in these particular cases, what they're remembering. typically has no outside corroboration. And number two, it happens under the conditions of remembering stories and making up stories and fantasies. And it's very difficult to corroborate them. And again, if it's something that's happened in the past, then immediate physical evidence can no longer be gathered.

And again, we're just relying on their story. Exactly. And this is one of the things that's most frustrating is, you know, someone comes to me and says, oh, well, you know, I was talking to my therapist last month and, you know, they were, telling me that, you know, they believe in aliens. And I saw this, this TV show recently. And I think that, you know, I'm remembering this. And I said, well, what happened? Well, you know, I remember when I was a kid, you know, when I was, you know, nine or ten years old, I'm like, this is 30 years ago. I mean, the opportunity to investigate this has long since

passed. So it's no wonder that, again, even if these are, even if these stories are true, and there's no real good events that they are, even if they're true, they're inherently problematic to investigate because they're not discussed or investigated until much later. It's a complicated question of psychology, absolutely. All right, well, we'd love to hear more from Ben Radford, but first, let's take a quick break. Then, at 6.33 p.m., everything changed. There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal. Apparently, the explosion actually impelled metal glass.

The injured were being loaded into ambulances. Just a chaotic, chaotic scene. In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged, and it was here to stay. Terrorism. Law and order, criminal justice system is. back. In season two, we're turning our focus to a threat that hides in plain sight. That's harder to predict and even harder to stop. Listen to the new season of Law and Order Criminal Justice System on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly and now I'm seriously suspicious. Wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit. Well, Dakota, it's back to School Week on the OK Story Time podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, my boyfriend has been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now, he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Now, hold up. Isn't that against school policy?

That sounds totally inappropriate. Well, according to this person, this is her boyfriend's former professor, and they're the same age. And it's even more likely that they're cheating. He insists there's nothing between them. I mean, do you believe him? Well, he's certainly trying to get this person to believe him because he now wants them Both the meets. So, do we find out if this person's boyfriend really cheated with his professor or not?

To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Imagine that you're on an airplane and all of a sudden you hear this. Attention passengers. The pilot is having an emergency and we need someone, anyone, to land this plane. Think you could do it? It turns out that nearly 50% of men think that they could land the plane with the help of air traffic control. And they're saying like, okay, pull this, until this.

Do this, pull that, turn this. It's just, I can do it my eyes close. I'm Mani. I'm Noah. This is Devin. And on our new show, no such thing. We get to the bottom of questions like these. Join us as we talk to the leading expert on overconfidence.

Those who lack expertise lack the expertise they need to recognize that they lack expertise. And then, as we try the whole thing out for real. Wait, what? Oh, that's the run right. I'm looking at this thing. Listen to no such thing on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, we're back, and we're talking to Ben Radford,

deputy editor of Skeptical Inquirer magazine about how to listen to stories about aliens. Let me ask you a question about what you like to watch. Do you enjoy watching shows? like ancient aliens, or do you try to avoid shows like that? Well, here's the thing. So I've been doing this sort of investigations and research for about 18, 20 years now. So I investigate a wide variety of things.

As an expert who in many cases has investigated a lot of the incidents that appear on these shows, it's really frustrating because I'll be watching this. There's lots of yelling at the TV where I'm like, that's not how that works. I know this. I research this case, and you're providing one angle to the story, and you're leaving out a whole bunch of other stuff, and it's like, ah. So why are they doing that? Why are they not doing a full, good faith investigation? Don't viewers want to see a real credible investigation?

Well, that's a good question. There's a couple answers. One of them is that, unfortunately, the general public doesn't have a good grasp of scientific processes, methodologies, and investigative techniques. So to a lot of people, when they see ghost hunters on TV shows, ghost adventures overroutes, or they see people looking for Bigfoot or looking for aliens, to them, the fact that it's on TV gives it some validity and some credibility. They say, well, these are investigators. It says investigate right there on the screen. I can see it, right?

And what they're missing is that typically on these shows, they're not in investigation business. They're in the entertainment business. And this goes back to what I said earlier, is my. complaint isn't that these people are investigating these weird things. My complaint is that they're not investigating it correctly. They're not bringing science to it. It's all this sensational mystery mongering. Right. I think there's a fear that if they did a real investigation, it would be boring and simple and wouldn't be entertaining. But I think you're right, that often a real investigation honors a different kind of story, but one that's equally fascinating. It does. And, you know,

this is, this is an issue that's plagued skeptics and some of my colleagues for for many, many years, is that there's this notion, as you said, that the skeptical science-based, grounded side of things isn't interesting. And that's not true. Wonderful. All right. Well, thanks very much for giving us a tour of how to listen to these stories, how to think about them,

and how to investigate them with an open-minded skeptical mind. Are there any top tips you want to leave our listeners for if they come across the story of alien abduction or if somebody tells them one or they hear a podcast about it? Well, there's a couple tips. One is, and it sounds simple, but just don't believe everything you hear. Don't believe everything you see. You know, understand that a lot of the people that are reporting these things are sincere people. I've interviewed dozens, if not hundreds, of people who have claimed to have experienced weird things, ranging from seeing Bigfoot close up to ghosts to being abducted by aliens.

Most of them are sincere. They're not liars. They're not crazy. They're not hoaxing. They genuinely believe what they experience. and that's how they interpreted it. The problem is that their sincere belief in interpretation that they experienced being abducted or seeing a UFO, whatever else, isn't necessarily true.

It doesn't mean they're lying. It doesn't mean they're crazy. It just means that the human mind is complex. We misunderstand things. We can misperceive things. We misremember things. It happens far more than people realize. And so people need to keep that in mind.

Another point involves media literacy. And that's just keep in mind that what you're seeing on TV is, carefully curated, is carefully edited, to show a particular point of view. They're not documentary trying to reveal the truth. It's, hey, here's this wild story, and here's the eyewitness, and here's the recreation. Isn't this cool? And it is cool, but there may be another side of the story. Well, thanks very much for your time and letting us your expertise. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me on. Great to talk to you. All right. Pretty great interview. Thank you, Ben, for being on the show. What did you get from Ben there, Daniel?

I got from Ben that, you know, we should be careful about how we listen to these stories. that we're all excited about the possibility that these stories could be true. But before we believe them, we need evidence. And, you know, for me, like, I can't really believe a single story about alien visitation or abduction without hard, concrete, physical evidence. Because it has to be more than just somebody's story. Science is never about an anecdote. Like, if I came and I told you, hey, I invented fusion, but I don't have my lab anymore, it

disappeared. You'd be like, okay, great, redo it. Right. You're never going to accept somebody's results just off the story they told you. You need concrete evidence. You need other people to get to examine it. Science isn't about personalities. Right. But what if, Daniel, what if two labs claim to have discovered fusion, but also both of their labs disappeared? Well, that would be a more compelling story. But then I'd want to build a third lab to reproduce their results. Well, I think what an interesting point he made was about how, you know, people should be wary about popular media. You know, taking these stories and since. and sessionizing them and just to entertain us and to amazes and get us to click on things and watch things. That's right. And so it's important to be media literate, right? If you hear a podcast about alien arrivals or you watch that ancient aliens show, remember that they are cutting away, that they are not showing you all the investigation. They're not necessarily taking a clear-headed eye because their goal is not to investigate. Their goal is just to entertain and amaze, which in the end also misleads. All right. Well, I think, you know, I think maybe the takeaway point is that, you know, we can't rule out these stories and say they're impossible because physics does say that it is possible for alien life to be there. And it might be possible for them to come visit us. But we should be skeptical about these stories, you know, ask questions and look for suspicious things about these stories.

That's right. And remember another point that Ben made, which is that people who are telling these stories are not necessarily lying. They can be believing them. They can be their honest recounting of their experience. But it doesn't make it necessary. true. Perception and memory can be very confusing. And so while I'd love to believe a story about aliens, I'm going to need some rock hard evidence. Maybe rocks from an alien world before I come around. Rock signed by an alien? What would it take, Daniel? I want alien rock and roll. Well, I guess, yeah, I think that's, I guess a picture. I guess even a photo would help, right? A photo would help, but these days, even those things can be manipulated. You need something that independent scientists can really probe, can really come to their own conclusions. All right. Well, we hope you enjoyed that and took away a little bit of skepticism from all of this. You should be skeptical of us as well.

That's right. So keep an open mind. Remember, aliens might be out there. They might come and visit you. And if they do, call Daniel first. Should we give him your number, Daniel? Tell them to email me to aliens at danielanore.com. Oh, I see. You have a hotline email. I got a special red phone, you know, that buzzes through emails just from that address. All right. Well, thank you for joining us. We hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for tuning in, and aliens, don't forget, to send us an email. See you next time.

Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of IHeartRadio. For more podcasts from IHeartRadio, visit the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Ah, come on, why is this taking so long? This thing is ancient. Still using yesterday's tech, upgrade to the ThinkPad X1 Carbon, ultra-light, ultra-powerful, and built for serious productivity, with Intel core ultra-processors, blazing speed, and AI-powered performance. It keeps up with your business, not the other way around.

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The holiday rush, parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys, then everything changed. There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal, just a chaotic, chaotic scene. In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged, terrorism. Listen to the new season of Law and Order Criminal Justice System on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly, and now I'm seriously suspicious.

Wait a minute, Sam. Maybe her boyfriend's just looked for extra credit. Well, Dakota, luckily, it's back to school week on the OK Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, my boyfriend's been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Now, hold up. Isn't that against school policy? That seems inappropriate. Maybe. Find out how it ends by listening to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. This is an IHeart podcast.

Thank you.