Daniel and Kelly’s Extraordinary Universe - The Science of "For All Mankind"

Episode Date: January 19, 2023

Daniel and Jorge talk about the science of the alt-history science fiction show "For All Mankind".See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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My worth is not wrapped up in how many things I've won, because what I came to realize, is I valued winning so much that once it was over, I got the blues, and I was like, this is it. For me, it's the pursuit of greatness. It's the journey. It's the people. It's the failures. It's the heartache. Listen to The Bright Side on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, Daniel, are you excited about going to space? You know, I think that there are plenty of people who are more excited about taking that journey than I am. So you're going to let them go first and then you're going?

I'm going to wait until they build comfortable suburbs on the moon before I go there. So you're going to buy a vacation home on the moon? You know, house prices in Southern California are getting pretty steep. I have no idea where my kids are going to move. Ooh, what did they move to the moon? Would you go visit them? I might wait until they have grandkids. That's cold, man. Not as cold as the far side of the moon.

Hi, I'm Horham, a cartoonist and the creator of Ph.D. Comics. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at UC Irvine, and I love living in Southern California. I do, too. It's the best. but it would also be pretty sunny on the moon, right? The moon gets a lot of sun. The moon is either too hot or too cold. It's kind of like Chicago. I see.

You're like the goldy bears of astronauts. You like it just right. Yeah, exactly. There's that one spot on the rim where it just stays the right temperature, but it's some pretty thin real estate on the moon. Now, if your grandkids are born on the moon, Daniel, would that technically make them aliens? Extraterrestrials, for sure.

I don't know about aliens. ETs, right? That's the same thing as an alien. So maybe I would finally get to meet aliens. Yeah, there you go. But only if you go there. All right, I'll commit to going. If my kids have their own kids on the moon, I'm in. What if they're born on the moon and they're moonies? Well, I'll just bring some moon pies. I'm sure we'll get along.

Welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge, Explained the Universe, a production of IHeart Radio. Where we share our over-the-moon enthusiasm for understanding the universe, for digging in deep to all of those tough questions about how everything works to wondering about what's out there deep in space that might be holding answers to the next generation of questions that scientists are asking. We don't shy away from asking any of those questions

and trying to explain all of the answers to you. Yeah, because it is a pretty big universe with a lot of space for us to explore and go visit and maybe even live out there among the stars as we continue our journey of humanity of exploring. and learning about how the universe works. Do you feel like colonization of space is inevitable? I don't know if inevitable, but it definitely sounds interesting and fun and cool and dangerous for the first people who do it. Yeah, it's going to be one of those things that starts out really dangerous and takes some brave souls to lay the groundwork.

But after a while, people will be like falling asleep on their commuter schedules to the moon. Yeah, definitely. Or the elevator. Can we build an elevator to the moon? I think we have a lot of nanotechnology puzzles between us and a space elevator to build that cable that's Tall enough that it won't snap because when the space elevator crashes to the surface, you got a bad day. Yeah, I think that's the plot of the new foundation TV series. And speaking of TV series, it's interesting to think about what science fiction and TV writers can come up with

because it does give us ideas about how we can go and explore space and what would happen if we do. Because it's not just academics and physicists who are wondering how the world works and coming up with ideas for how we might explore it, what we might find. And there are folks like you out there thinking about the universe and also people out there writing stories, people developing alternative universes in which we do explore space or go further or discover aliens or discover we are the aliens. And on the podcast, we are big fans of science fiction, of course. And so we love talking about the science of some of these alternate universes and hearing about the process of creating them. You make it sound like maybe TV shows and science fiction are kind of simulations of the universe. like where you can run experiments. Yeah, there's sort of thought experiments writ large, right?

Thought experiments turned into TV shows. Yeah, so to the end of the podcast, we'll be tackling. The science fiction universe of for all mankind. Now, Daniel, this is a TV show on Apple TV, I think, right? Yeah, it's on Apple TV. They've just finished their third season, and they're in the process of making season four. And it's a really fun show for those of us who are enthusiastic.

about exploration of space, not just by robots, but by people. But wait, I thought you're not excited about exploring space, or is just excited for other people to explore space? Ding, ding, ding, ding. I'm excited for people to explore space. I don't want to be on those trips myself. But then you won't get to experience the best part of it. It's like you're going to be living vicariously for the rest of your life. That's okay. I enjoy reading science fiction,

and I also enjoy reading science fact. Both of them are fun for me. And I think other people have a better temperament. for being test astronauts. Yeah, so this is kind of part of our series of episodes where we talk about the television series or films that have to do with science fiction and we even get to talk to some of the writers

behind some of these pieces of work. Yeah, and on today's episode, you'll hear my interview with one of the writers for All Mankind, Sabrina Almada, who has a really interesting life story about how she got to be a science fiction author. Yeah, and we'll get to that interview later in the show. But I guess first, let's talk about the show itself.

This is, as we said, on Apple TV, and it's by the creator of Battlestar Galactica, right? Ronald Moore. Yeah, another really fun show that I enjoyed. Also co-created by Ben Ndivie and Matt Wolpert. This show for All Mankind is really exciting because it explores like an alternative history. It imagines the universe very similar hours, but what if one important event was different, but such an important event that it changed to the course of history completely in a really fascinating way. Yeah, that's a pretty interesting idea. that I think I've seen in several shows, right?

Isn't there a show out there where, like, the Nazis win this Second World War? Yeah, that's the Philip K. Dick show called The Man of the High Castle. That's really fun. Not a whole lot of science fiction in it, but it's definitely an interesting alt history. What would our world be like if a few battles had gone differently? Now, Ronald Moore, he's the creator of this show, and he's known for Battlestar Galactica, but also he used to write on Star Trek, right? Oh, is that right?

I don't know his history. Yeah, I think he used to work maybe even with Gene Roddenberry. I forget, maybe on the next generation. He's an old-hatted sci-fi TV, is what I'm saying. Well, this show is really fun because the central event that pivots history in the show is the space race. We all know that in our universe, Americans landed on the moon first. Neil Armstrong was the first human to step on the moon. But in this alternative universe of for all mankind, it was the Soviet Union that landed on the moon first.

Interesting. That's right. This was back in the 60s, right? the big space race. Everyone was trying to get to the moon first. And the U.S. did it first. I guess in reality, how far back or how far behind were the Russians? Because I know they put, you know, a man on the moon, a dog, Lika, right, on the moon.

Sputnik, they seem to be ahead for a while. But then the U.S. kind of blew past them with the Apollo program. Yeah, that's exactly right. The U.S.R. really started off the space race very dramatically. Sputnik and the first astronaut orbiting the Earth. And that really inspired the U.S. to pour a huge amount of money and energy into the space race, culminating with them landing on the moon first. And that lasted a little while and ended up in the shuttle program.

But the U.S.S. are sort of faded in the space race. And as a response in our universe, at least, the U.S. did as well. And now we don't spend nearly as much time or energy on space as we did back in the 60s when we had like a vibrant rival. So one of the key conceits of this show is that the U.S. basically never take. their foot off the pedal. They just keep pouring time and energy and money into the space race. And so it flourishes for much longer than it did in our universe. So in this history, the USSR landed on the moon first. So they beat the U.S. and what kind of repercussions does that have on the history and politics of the U.S. So it's a lot of panic in the upper echelons of the

politics of the United States. And in just the same way that like Sputnik and Yuri Gagarian inspired the U.S. to pour a lot of time and energy and money into it. The Russians landing on the moon first meant that the Americans accelerated their program. They put even more time and energy and money into it. And then by the time the Americans get to the moon, the Russians are already like building a moon base. And so it just sort of never slows down. They keep sort of like hopping over each other, making these advancements. Wow.

So there are moon bases on this show. Yeah, they're moon bases. And in the recent season, they even go to Mars. Oh, that's exciting. Well, we get to later seasons later. But there's also kind of a fundamental twist about the show, including sort of a twist on its title. Yeah, they call it for all mankind, but there's also a very important twist in politics, which is inspired by the Russians, not just putting the first person on the moon, but then landing a woman on the moon. And in the show, female astronauts at NASA are not taken very seriously. It's all dominated by men. But when the USSR puts a woman on the moon, that inspires the equal rights movement in the United States. And so in the show, for example, the Equal Rights Amendment, which in our universe didn't pass, does pass in the show.

And so you see a lot of women advancing to very high levels of government and of NASA and playing important roles and being astronauts. Again, inspired by the achievements of our adversary. Sort of like making the point that progress is sometimes best achieved in competition. Interesting. So the Russians, they were the first to put a woman on the moon and that inspired the U.S. Also, I guess, what's the pressure there, I guess? Because if you can get both sexes on the moon, then you can have a colony there. Is that the idea? Because that wouldn't make the U.S. worried in the show. It's sort of just embarrassed the U.S. it spotlighted the fact that the U.S. was not taking their female astronauts seriously. And also, I think, inspired activists in the U.S. to push for gender equality. When you see that something is possible, you have role models, you have something to shoot for, is something to point to. I think it makes your activism more powerful.

Right. Because I think maybe the main character, the central protagonist of the show, is a woman, right? A woman astronaut. I'll confess, I know nothing of the show. I haven't seen it. I'm just going from what I've seen of trailers and billboards. It usually features a woman in a space suit. Yeah, there is certainly an astronaut who plays an important role.

And there's another woman who becomes the administrative. illustrator of NASA. And then eventually they have a woman precedent on the show, things that we have not yet achieved in our own universe. Yeah, it's pretty sad. And the show sort of takes place across multiple decades, right? Like it doesn't just start off in the 60s with the space rate. It actually kind of moves a decade with each season.

That's exactly right. So they're showing like the ripple effects downstream of all these changes of history. And it's fascinating because they're having to imagine another universe. with all the downstream effects of all of this research, some of which like boosts computer technology, but maybe they haven't made other discoveries that we have made. So it's a really fun, just like window into an alternative view of what our lives might be like.

Now, do they take this butterfly ripple effect to the extreme? Like do their clothes change or do people in the 80s, alternate universe still dress like they do in the 80s, people in the 90, alternate universe still dress like people in our 90s universe. like did they still have hammer pants is what i'm saying nothing can stop mc hammer i mean he's just a force in the multiverse so there's nothing you can do they do take it seriously that they don't focus as much on fashion they think about like technology you know consumer technology for example they have like electric cars in their universe much earlier than we do they have people communicating on

video screens but they don't have like small devices as fast as we do so it's interesting because in some areas they are more advanced in other areas they are less advanced. It's kind of like, I guess, the Star Wars universe where they have warped rise, but they have like terrible computer graphics under computer interface. Minimalist computer graphics. You don't need any more than that, man. Just like the old computer games were just as good as today's computer games.

You don't need fancy graphics. That's right. You don't need millions of pixels. You need like five to have fun, right? And you want to aim the desktop all you need is that one color screen, you know, glowing green. Now, because I guess, you know, the idea is that in our real history, the space rays really kind of boosted science and technology in the U.S. and around the world, where if you put more emphasis on the space race, who knows how

that could have affected the technology we have today. Yeah. Anytime you invest in basic research, you see the downstream effects technologically and economically. A lot of the advancements we have in computer technology and miniaturization were motivated by a desire to go to space and also, of course, weapons research to shrink stuff and put it on warheads. So anytime you're pouring money into basic research and these kind of new technologies, you're to discover stuff and that's going to lead to new technologies. And that's going to change the way everybody lives. Yeah. Like, for example, Velcro I hear really got a boost from the space program.

Like, you know, maybe we wouldn't have all the Velcro we have today if it wasn't for the Apollo program, right? Because they needed a way to stick things to the wall in zero gravity. Also, astronaut ice cream, right? We wouldn't have that if we didn't have astronauts. Important culinary advancements. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, season one takes place in the 60s or 70s? Season one takes place in the 70s just after the Russians have landed on the moon.

And then there's a jump in the end. And season 2 is in the 80s. Season 3 is in the 1990s. And we've heard recently that season 4 is going to be in the 2000s. Interesting. I wonder if they'll still have, you know, historical events like September 11th, maybe. Yeah, it's really fun. They do use characters from our history.

you know, Reagan and Clinton are there, though Clinton loses the 92 election to a Republican woman, for example. And so you get these fun little nuggets of familiar history that have been changed in interesting ways. Well, there's a lot of science and, I guess, imaginary science here to unpack about this show to maybe stimulate some interesting discussions about space and space tourism and space technology. So let's get into that. But first, let's take a quick break. Get fired up, y'all. Season two of Good Game with Sarah Spain is underway.

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Right, we're talking about the science fiction universe of For All Mankind, which is a television show in Apple TV. Daniel, do you subscribe to Apple TV? Are they paying you to Dorses' show? They are paying me in apples, yes. No, I'm a subscriber to Apple TV. I like a lot of the stuff on there. I like that show, Severance.

Have you seen that one? Severance, yes, absolutely. I love that show. Great speculative fiction, really high concept and very well delivered. Also, what's the show about the video game company? Mythic Quest. Mythic Quest That's a pretty good one

That one I think is mocking video game companies But It does have One of the characters He's a science fiction writer Though you might be interested in that They make so much fun of him

Oh, that is not fair That's one of the main path of the characters there We are talking about The show for All Mankind Which is science fiction By the creator of Battlestar Galactica That was another fun show right

That was another fun show Really cool, clever ideas I like shows that have a interesting new concept, take you to some new world and really explore how it works. One of the things I really liked about for all mankind is that it really does show you the scientific challenges of this. It doesn't just like dot, dot, dot their way to the moon and yada, yada, yada, their way to Mars.

It really explores like, what would it take? What would be hard about it? Are you saying they have a lot of these discussions on screen, like on the show? They're talking about standing in front of a blackboard or whiteboard and working out equations? They're not doing math on. screen as much as the whole structure of the show is about the struggle against nature, right?

To get to the moon, it's a huge endeavor. It's like climbing Mount Everest. When you do that, you have to plan. You need your resources. You need to overcome obstacles. And so the whole show is about how to overcome the obstacles to get to the moon and to build a base there and to run it and to staff it. And what happens when things go wrong. So there's a lot of really interesting science puzzles there and how to make money on the moon and lots of fun questions that they explore. Maybe they should call the show Against All Gravity instead Because I guess it is really hard to get to the moon, right?

First of all, it just takes an enormous amount of energy To leave the Earth, right? Because you have to accelerate up to ridiculous speed, right? You do need a lot of energy to leave the Earth Especially if you're going to carry a lot of stuff up there You want to build a moon base, you want to transport supplies It does take a lot of energy to just lift that stuff off the surface of the Earth So one strategy that they explore is to try to

build a moon base and then try to find materials on the moon that you can use to sustain your moon base. So you don't need to be shipping everything from Earth all the time. Yeah, you said that the big part of the plot is them trying to figure out how to build moon bases because I guess having a moon base gives you a strategic position. You know, if you're the U.S. against the USSR, right? Like just having a base there maybe gives you, who knows, some sort of strategic advantage. I'm not an expert on space warfare strategy, but I think the idea is that having a base out there does give you a strategic advantage for later, for example, exploring the solar system. It's much easier to launch from the moon than it is to launch from Earth. So if you can build industry on the moon, for example, then you can fabricate satellites and ships and all sorts of stuff to explore the rest of the solar system.

And there is, unfortunately, a militarization of the moon bases that happens and even some shooting. Now, I guess it must be kind of a hard sell, though, because, like, in our real history, we said we kind of dropped the idea of going to the moon and establishing a base there, right? Because I guess it's just really hard. It is really hard and really expensive to live on the moon. And I think that one of the points of the show is that the motivation in our universe to do that, a lot of it really did come from politics, come from, like, national pride. Like, we're racing against the Russians. Does it really make scientific sense to build laboratories on the moon? Do we really need those resources?

I think in some sense, it really was just motivated by a desire to beat the Russians more than the actual scientific goals themselves. It's more about ego maybe than any practical desire. But as you said, it is important for exploration. And maybe now that people are thinking about like mining the asteroids fields or, you know, privatizing Mars, then now it becomes maybe an advantage to have a base on the moon. And if you do think about the deep future of humanity, It seems like almost inevitable that we will have to get off this planet if we don't want to be vulnerable to comets and asteroids that might obliterate us and destroy our civilization. And the moon is sort of an easy stepping stone.

It's pretty close. It's fairly hospitable compared to other places. There are some useful resources up there. You can still get stuff from Earth if you need it. It's not nearly as far away, for example, as Mars or the asteroid belt. So it is a useful sort of like testing ground for figuring out how to build a common. Yeah, it's got all the cheese you need. I mean, what else do you need? No, I'm just kidding. But I guess maybe step us through, what are some of the hard things about building a base on the moon and living there? One of the hardest things about building a base on the moon is finding water. Like, people need water. Plants need water to grow. If you're not going to be constantly shipping water from Earth, then you have to find a source of it on the moon. And this plays a big role in the plot. They're like digging around on the moon to try to find water deposits. Because there is water on the moon, technically, right?

There is water on the moon, yeah. So the moon is covered mostly by this stuff called Regolith, which is like the shattered surface of the moon blown up again and then falling down is dust and then shattered again. And it seems kind of dry. If you're up there, you're just like kicking it and there's dust. There is water in there. Like there is some water mixed in with the regolith.

It is possible to filter the water out of the surface of the moon and to get some. But it takes a lot. Like it's pretty dry. stuff. It's about as wet as like concrete. Well, if you're thirsty on the moon, you literally have to suck concrete. But is it in the form of ice or is it like, would you see a drip or pool in any way or is it just kind of like crystals? No, it's all crystals. And there's just not a whole lot of it on average. If you, for example, processed like six tons of surface material on the moon,

you'd get about three kilograms of water, which is about one human's daily dose of water. So that's six tons of material in order to get one person's supply of water for one day. There are some spots on the moon that we think have more water deposits, like near the poles where it's always dark. There are these like tall mountains with crevasses in them where we think like comets may have smashed in and left their ice millions of years ago and it might still be there. So we think there might be like deposits of frozen water on the moon that you can access that are a little richer than just filtering it out of. this regolith. Do they think there's water under the surface? Like I know on Mars, they think there are maybe underground oceans. There's no evidence for vast underground deposits of water on the moon. It's either filtering it out of the regalith or finding it on the surface from these cometary deposits sort of

near the poles where you have these places called craters of eternal darkness. All right. So then the moon is B-Y-O-W bringing your own water, obviously. But then there's other difficulties, right? Like, it's not easy to, like, grow plants there. Yeah, plants need nutrients from the soil. And the stuff up there is pretty tough. You know, they haven't grown plants on the moon. The Chinese did it last year. They brought some seeds up and they grew them up there on the moon, which is cool.

On the moon. Wait, what? Did they? Like, they have a base there? Or just on their little lander, they did it? Just on their little lander, they did some experiments. Wow. Yeah, it's pretty cool.

And they grew technically, but they didn't, like, grow very well. They didn't exactly flourish. The plants that grew in the moon sort of look like plants that are stressed out all the time. It's not like a happy place for plants to grow. So it would be pretty challenging to have like a farm on the moon. Yeah, I guess I would be pretty stressed out if I was in a tiny capsule in the middle of space there. But I guess thankfully it didn't grow on the moon. It grew on like a pot on a little spaceship.

Is it possible to grow things like on the lunar soil? One challenge there is the moon has almost no carbon on its surface. and carbon is important. You and I need carbon. Plants need carbon. All of life is based on carbon. We call it organic chemistry when there is carbon in the molecule.

And the moon has almost no carbon. Actually, interestingly, some of the richest sources of carbon on the moon are what the Apollo astronauts left. You know, they're quote unquote waste. You mean they're poop? Yes, exactly. That's one of the biggest sources?

Like, how much did they poop? Just a normal amount, but there really just is not very much carbon on the moon. I guess that's one way to get carbon up there. But I guess you also need air to grow plants, right? Do you have to bring your own air as well? You need to bring your own air. You need carbon.

You need oxygen in order to make the atmosphere that plants need. You need nitrogen. So a lot of these things you just can't find on the moon. So a moon base really pretty tough. On top of that, the moon has really, really terrible weather. Like not only is it really, really hot in the sun and really, really cold in the darkness, but also there's a huge amount of radiation. Like, you'll get cancer really quick on the moon if you don't have a lot of shielding.

Right. It's sort of like being out there in orbit where you don't have the atmosphere that we have here on Earth to absorb a lot of that radiation from space. Yeah, and the moon has this really interesting geological history where we think that there was a lot of lava flow a while ago before it cooled. And so there are these huge lava tubes, like where lava once flowed through and left these, like, just tunnels. underground. They estimate to have billions of cubic meters of space. And those are awesome because

they're underground, so they're shielded. If you're in one of these lava tubes, you're shielded from the radiation of space. You're saying that these could be potential places to live in. Yeah. So if you're imagining living on the moon and having like the best view of Earth ever, it's more likely you live on the moon underground in the darkness. Well, that might appeal to some people. People who are already living in basement apartments, they're like, what do I have to do this? Exactly. It's not much of an upgrade or a downgrade for them. But they talk about this a lot of the show and they take it really seriously. You know, the astronauts think about radiation. There's one important scene where there's a solar storm and the astronauts have to scramble to get

into a lava tube to protect themselves, has long-ranging impacts on one of the astronauts. It's really quite interesting. But also in the show, they don't just have DASA and the USSR. They also have private industries up there playing a role in the space race. Interesting. Like the space axes or the Jeff Bezos of the world are getting on the action here on the moon? They are, exactly. And there's a company in the show called Helios, which is probably a stand-in for, you know, some combination of SpaceX and Blue Origin.

And they have a really cool idea for these companies, which is that they're not just doing space tourism and not just launching satellites, et cetera, et cetera. They're actually getting into business on the moon. And in the show, they make billions and billions of dollars on fusion using fuel that they find on the moon. Interesting. You mean, they're not just making money by opening a water stand or selling carpet. What are they fusing? What are they finding on the moon that they're fusing?

So on the moon, in real life, like in our universe, there's this isotope of helium called helium three. It's two protons and one neutron. Usually helium is like helium four, two protons and two neutrons. But helium three, it's something which we have almost none of on Earth, and there is some of it on the moon. And scientists, like, again, in our universe, this is not science fiction, think that it is a really good source of fuel for fusion. No, this is on the moon, like, mixed in with the soil, or is it floating as an atmosphere of the moon? Does the moon have an atmosphere? The moon has almost no atmosphere.

Actually, it has an exosphere. It has, like, a very loose collection of particles that sort of, like, float around it. and get diffused. We have an episode about the atmosphere of the moon came out recently, but the helium three is deposited on the surface of the moon. Actually, the helium three is like produced by the sun. It's in the solar wind. It goes everywhere in the solar system.

It just lands on the surface of the moon because the moon has no atmosphere to like deflect it or break it up. So it's sort of like deposited on the surface of the moon by the sun. And so it's in crystal form or what? Because I normally think of helium as gas. Right. No, this would be in crystal form, but it's really tiny amounts.

So it might even just be like individual particles. We're talking super duper rare, like four to ten parts per billion on the surface. So if you pick up like a billion kilograms of surface, it'll have like four to ten kilograms of helium three. So in the show there's maybe a private company that wants to go to the moon and mine this helium three to make fusion, but why is this good for fusion? Why not just use the hydrogen on Earth?

So you could just use hydrogen on Earth. Helium 3 is thought to be better for fusion because it doesn't release any neutrons. Like normally when you do fusion, you fuse hydrogen together, particular isotopes, tridium and deuterium that have extra neutrons because those are easier to fuse. And then you get energy, but you also get neutrons out. Those neutrons fly out and they will irradiate your reactor. So you run a fusion reactor for a few years. Eventually it becomes radioactive itself.

And so that's bad. So helium-3 doesn't release any extra neutrons because it has fewer neutrons. It just releases energy in terms of like photons. So it's safer. It's a nice alternative to hydrogen burning. Cool. So this show is not just about engineering and math. It's also about business.

It's also about business. Though I do have to say that helium-3 fusion is a cool idea, but I'm not really sure it's a great business idea. I mean, we haven't even figured out how to do hydrogen fusion. and helium fusion is harder, and there's not like there's a lot of it on the moon. So to make this business work, you have to figure out hydrogen fusion, then helium fusion, and also figure out a way to mine this very rare source of fuel on the surface of the moon. I guess you're saying it's kind of a stretch that there would be a company that thinks this is a good

business idea. Nobody here on Earth is investing in it right now, for example. If it was such a great idea and there was billions of dollars, Elon Musk would be working on it. Or it could be a great opportunity. You could beat Elon Musk to it. That's right. Listeners, send us your billions. No, please don't.

All right. Well, another interesting business that you can have in space is space tourism. And so let's get into that. And also, Daniel's interview with one of the writers of the show, Sabrina Almeida. But first, let's take another quick break. Get fired up, y'all. Season two of Good Game with Sarah Spain is underway. We just welcomed one of my favorite people.

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The final, the final, and the locker room. I really, really, like, you just can't replicate, you can't get back. Showing up to the locker room every morning, just to shit talk. We've got more incredible guests like the legendary Candice Parker and college superstar AZ Fudd. I mean, seriously, y'all.

The guest list is absolutely stacked for season two. And, you know, we're always going to keep you up to speed on all the news and happenings around the women's sports world as well. So make sure you listen to Good Game with Sarah Spain on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports. I'm Simone Boyce, host of the Brightside podcast, and on this week's episode, I'm talking to Olympian, World Cup champion, and podcast host, Ashlyn Harris.

My worth is not wrapped up in how many things I've won, because what I came to realize is I valued winning so much that once it was over, I got the blues, and I was like, this is it. For me, it's the pursuit of greatness. It's the journey. It's the people. It's the failures. It's the heartache. Listen to The Bright Side on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, Puzzlers. Let's start with a quick puzzle. The answer is Ken Jennings' appearance on The Puzzler with A.J. Jacobs. The question is, what is the most entertaining listening experience in podcast land? Jeopardy Truthers, who say that you are.

given all the answers, believe in... I guess they would be conspiracy theorists. That's right. Are there Jeopardy Truthers? Are there people who say that it was rigged? Yeah, ever since I was first on, people are like, they gave you the answers, right? And then there's the other ones which are like. They gave you the answers

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stars. Workers skilled through alternative routes rather than a bachelor's degree. It's It's time to tear the paper ceiling and see the stars beyond it. Find out how you can make stars part of your talent strategy at tear the paper sealing.org. Brought to you by opportunity at work in the ad council. We're talking about the science fiction universe is for all mankind, the TV show. And you said their business is trying to get to the moon to build bases there. And it's part of it also to build, you know, theme parks. hotels there? They do actually build a hotel in space, a giant rotating wheel in space,

a space hotel that opens up in the beginning of season three. Wait, not on the moon, just in space. Not on the moon, yeah, in space, like a giant rotating wheel and rotating so that you can get like gravity from the rotation from the centrifugal effects. Right, because I guess that's cheaper to film. Because I imagine if you're based your whole episode on the moon, you have to show people kind of floating around some right because there's less gravity on the moon that's true season two has a lot of action on the moon people running on the surface people chasing each other there's a whole lot of moon related action in season two it was a lot of fun and they float and they sort of float you know when you run on the moon you don't exactly float you also don't run normally

do these sort of like floaty leaps from step to step right because i saw that movie with brad pitt at Astra, and they have some action scenes on the moon surface that are pretty exciting in low gravity. But then they show you inside the moon base, it's like regular gravity. It's like, oh, that doesn't make sense. I don't know how they do that. I fell asleep halfway through that movie. It was so boring. All right. So there's tourism. And there's also something interesting about the show is how they do technology, like spaceship technology. Yeah, season three is like a race to Mars, and they try all sorts of different strategies. Like one group is launching.

from the surface of the moon. Another group is launching from Earth. And yet another one is building a ship in orbit and then taking it to Mars from there, not starting from the moon or from Earth. And so it's sort of a fun way for them to tell us, to teach us about the challenges of each of these approaches. And I guess how realistic is it? I think it's pretty realistic. You know, they really think about the challenges in each case, how much more rocket fuel you need to launch from Earth, the benefits of launching from the moon, but also the disadvantages, right? The moon has certain resources on it, silicon, aluminum, magnesium, but it doesn't have, for example, what you need to manufacture rocket fuel, right?

That's water. To make rocket fuel, you need to take H2O and separate it and then use that hydrogen to make like methane or something like that. And the moon just doesn't have carbon or hydrogen in vast amounts that you need to make that fuel. Wait, wait, wait, wait, what? To make rocket fuel, you make it out of water? There's lots of different ways to synthesize fuel.

one good way is to start from water. And when they actually do get to Mars, that's what they start doing. And they find a water deposit. And then they take the water and they split it into H2 and O2 for breathing, of course. And the hydrogen, they can then combine with carbon to make like methane, which is a good rocket fuel. So you don't have to ship it all from Earth. Interesting. I always thought rocket fuel was made from fossil fuels.

But we can make it out of nothing. Why don't we use rocket fuel in our cars then? I think it's pretty expensive stuff, but yeah, you could synthesize all of these compounds. It's just cheaper to dig it up from underground where it's been synthesizing itself for millions of years. Right, right. But we're going to run out of fossil fuels at some point. I guess maybe it's not cost efficient to make rocket fuel out of water, right? Like maybe you have to put in more energy than you get out of it, but you can still make some to use for rockets.

Yeah, you need another source of power, probably solar power or something in order to break the water into H2 and O2. It's more about making the fuel, which is like a compact energy battery. It's like a chemical battery, basically. You're storing energy in this form so that you can use it to launch. We do have some propulsion technology like ion drives, which can just be electric powered, but they don't typically have the thrust to launch you from a surface. They can, like, gently push you in space, but they can't typically launch you from the gravity well of a planet. And so that's how they plan to go to Mars using nuclear power?

So they have a few different approaches, but yeah, they have nuclear powered space. ships here, which have like ion drives. They take the energy generated by the nuclear power plant and they turn that into ions, which they shoot out the back of the ship. We have a whole episode about navigating around the solar system and how all these drives work if you want to dig into that a little bit. But it's really fun to watch them all racing to Mars and the choices they have to make. Like you take an orbit around Mars first before you try to land or just try to land first. It's really interesting and very exciting. Do they make it or is that a spoiler? That's a big spoiler, man. You had a chance to talk to one of the writers of the show, Sabrina Almeida.

Has she been with the show from the beginning? She hasn't. They brought her on after season two. So she's been writing in this most recent season. She's part of the writer's room, but she also has her name on one of the specific episodes. And when I talked to her, they were in the middle of working on season four. And she's interesting because she has a background in aerospace engineering. She's an actual like almost astronaut.

Yeah, she has her credentials from MIT. and then she crossed over and decided she wanted to be a creative type. So that must be a familiar story to you. She started as an engineer and ended up as a creative type. She took a detour into making commercials for banks along the way. You'll hear her whole story when I ask her about it in the interview. Maybe she can aspire to one day host her own podcast. I mean, that must be the pinnacle of any creatives career.

All right. Well, here is Daniel's interview with For All Mankind Writer, Sabrina Almeda. Okay, so then it's my great pleasure to welcome to the program, Sabrina Almeda. Thank you very much for joining us and talking to us about your exciting work on For All Mankind. It's my pleasure to be here. Thanks for showing the interest and inviting. So first, let's get to know you a little bit. Tell us a little bit about your background, how you got into science fiction writing and getting to work on this exciting television project. I always wrote a lot on the side. I always thought I'd be following the path of math and science.

I came to the U.S. from Brazil and didn't know any English, so the only area that I could continue in school and keep up was math. So I was the huge, like, math dork. And then I became the science dork, and I'd go to the physics as fun events in high school for fun. I went to MIT to pursue aerospace engineering. I did a few years of studying in it. And during that time, I got to do a lot of cool things. I got to help with some research on satellite anonymity. data. I got to work summers at JPL, due internships, and that progressed into designing command sequences for the Cassini spacecraft. And I got a hand in changing some of the flight rules. But all this time, I was also taking classes, classes like French film classics and

Hong Kong cinema. And suffice it to say, by the time, by the time I graduated, not with an engineering degree. I applied to film school and got to USC. And that's where I honed down that love was really in the writing portion. And from there, I started a family unintentionally with my on-again, off-again boyfriend. And upon graduating, I, you know, I try to stay in the industry, but I was just helping maybe mix people's films, doing second camera, I'm credited on reality projects on weekends. And that became a gig of doing corporate videos for banks, which isn't the reason I went to film school.

But that was, you know, a much steadier gig. And it took, I did that, I was just doing that for years and years. And it took my brother getting diagnosed with brain cancer, a terminal prognosis. And that's when I realized, oh, my God, life is so short. I'm wasting mine. And then I finally started writing every day. and it took some years for me to get wrapped and break into the industry.

Wow. Well, congratulations. That's quite a story. I love hearing when people's hobbies become their passions, become their life's work, and then they get to actually do it for their day job. That's so inspirational. So for all of our science fiction writer guests, we ask them three questions to help us orient where they are in the sort of science fiction universe.

So here's a question about Star Trek. Do you think that the transporters in Star Trek kill you and clone you or act? actually transport your atoms somewhere else? Oh, wow. That's such a great question. I think I wouldn't use the word kill, but I don't think they're physically moving your atoms. So yes, I think you're being reformulated

when you want to talk about consciousness or soul or what happens as the matter is being used for other things in one end and reformulated on the other end. I don't know that I'd say you're killed, but I think you're reformulated. Okay, so would you be willing to step into a transport or be torn apart and 3D printed on the other side? If there's enough data, if enough people before me did it, if the rate of a lack of success

is low enough, yeah? And depends where I want to go. All right. Second question is what technology that you see in science fiction would you most like to see become reality? I think anything that lets us, if we could travel faster than light, I think, because part of me is inclined to solve earthbound problems but we don't need to do that if we can travel faster than light then i definitely think there are the worlds that we could live in and habitate if we not if when you know we finish just one off whether it's us or the sun so then what is your personal answer to the fermi paradox if the universe and the galaxy are old and there are rocky planets everywhere why have an aliens made themselves known so far? Well, I think there are a few possibilities. One is they have. We just

aren't able to receive the information, right? They've done it in a way that we don't perceive it. And they're like, why aren't they answering? That's one version of it. And one is, we're just not that interesting, right? We observe that it's like, I don't know, like, why haven't we try to communicate with bacteria? Like, we're just not worth the time. And then another one is just simply, house spread out. I don't know. You could, you know, basically we just haven't. If you think about the vastness of the universe, maybe there's just nobody nearby. I don't presume we're the most intelligent light form. I don't presume. I'm more likely to assume that we're on the lower end of scale. All right. So then about for all mankind, I love the show because it puts us in this

alternative reality where the space race is, again, an important part of our national identity and governments are spending boatloads of money to make breakthrough in space technology. So what's exciting to you about these themes in this world? Why is it fun to write in that universe? I really like the idea of coming together for something bigger than yourself, but it's also something epic, right? So there's the glory of the achievement for the individual players involved. There's ego and striving.

and these are all people on top of their game to be able to be involved in these endeavors. So there's what the individual ego wants, but you can't make things of that magnitude happen unless you collaborate. So you take all these, a lot of these people are Taipei or really competitive or really into the thing they're into, but then they have to compromise or work together to communally make something happen. And then I just think the stakes are huge. And I love when you put huge stories to stakes.

So those are some of what I like. And, you know, and it's just, it's just such a shame. The amount of funding and the lack of priority of how we view space exploration, it's a travesty. Well, I'm inspired by what you say about people coming together to solve a problem. But in the show, there's also a competitive aspect, right? There's national pride and there's national security. And here in our universe, science often appeals to national pride. Like in my field, particle physics, we say we have to discover the Higgs boson before the Europeans, though they certainly beat us to it.

Sometimes, though, it leads to disasters like projects getting canceled halfway through. What do you think the role is for nationalism in science? Are the characters in the show just like exploiting that to get their science done? Or do you think it's sincere on their part? And how do you think we should handle that in our world? I am not a nationalist personally. I'm a humanist, and I think the way we do things in the name of nationalism and the way we treat borders, you know, a hundred, a thousand years from now, it will be viewed a lot differently, much like a post-slavery society, there's still slavery in the world, but in much minute amounts, a post-slavery society views slavery. I was like, oh, my God, that's horrible. I can't believe they did that. I think, hopefully in a few hundred years, nationalism will be viewed the same way. Maybe because I'm an immigrant, I'm not a very very nationalist kind of person. However, I think our characters, for some of them, it's very,

it's very sincere, for example, for Ed Baldwin. But for other characters like a Margo Madison, it is about the science. It's not about the science for the glory of the United States. And I think we hit upon that in some of the way that she's collaborating with Sergey thinking while we're helping advance science. You know, she's not thinking, oh, let me betray my country. So it's really about what can I do to further science? And if a way to drum up funding is to point out the rivalry, great. But for her, I think it's science first. So speaking of science first, many of the plot lines revolve around scientific obstacles. You know, they have to solve some specific technical problem and you guys aren't just like fuzzing over the details and, you know, dot, dot, dot,

they make it over there. So tell us a little bit about the writing process. Do you guys come up with story arcs and then figure out the science to make it work? Or do you start with the science and the challenges presented by it and then think about how your characters will navigate it? What's the writing process like? So the first several weeks, it depends how many weeks, but each season's a little different. But we'll spend time in the beginning of the season during something we call blue skying, where no idea is a wrong idea and we'll talk about possible arcs for the characters and directions we want to go.

And during that time, it's not about the science. However, if we hit big areas, we think we might want to go into, we have a researcher, we have technical advisor, and we'll, you know, we'll just make sure that we're vaguely in a space that's okay, and then we'll figure out the details closer to breaking down that episode. If we think there's going to be a landslide or a Mars quake, we just want to know if we can be in that, you know, if we can be in that without figuring out the details until we get to the episode. So big moves we run by early, but then the details, they happen more when we are into that specific episode. And you have a real scientific

background, as we just heard about. So I imagine that in the writer's room, you might be like pushing for the story to be as accurate as possible. Is there a whole spectrum of voices there where people are like, oh, don't worry so much about the science and other people like gritting their teeth if the details aren't right? How do you guys resolve that kind of stuff? Everybody cares to some extent about the science, and we understand that this is one of the things that makes a show special. The amount of worry that each particular writer has varies. Some people are like, whatever, I'm sure we'll figure it out. And other people are like, I don't know if we can, you know, I don't know if we can do that.

So it definitely does vary. And, you know, like occasionally how people talk to each other about it. occasionally like somebody will draw something on a post-ed and put in front of their Zoom screen to try to like convey or explain something. But again, when it really becomes an issue, our showrunners are not relying on the writers. We had two people that were very pivotal to us getting the science right. And in the room every day, we had Erica Hatfa with us. She was a researcher.

and she's a former scientist with a PhD, and she would look up information at the moment live as we were talking and pitching and working and also send us great information at the end of every day. And every few weeks, every few months, we'd have former astronaut Gareth Reisman come in and either talk to us about the directions we were going with story or actually review every single episode and changes get made also based on his expertise.

Well, I'm just glad to hear that science plays such a big role. You can definitely see it in the show how the science like changes the path of the story. And it's often a story about conflict between people, but often it's a story about conflict between, you know, people and nature. I also want to ask you about the sort of alt history aspect of it from a gender point of view. There's a moment of show when the USSR surprises everybody by putting a woman on the moon. which sort of like supercharges equal rights in the U.S. How does it feel to you to write about a world where women play a more prominent role in science and in politics?

Do you see this as a way to shine in light on continuing gender issues in science and like in your industry here? Yeah, no, I think it's absolutely fantastic that we have female characters that are playing more than the love interests of another character and are doing more than just motivating male characters. storylines. I joined in season three. So that's one of the main reasons I wanted to join. I was like,

oh, wow. I love how the show treats women. And it's a very grounded show. So as soon as we say, okay, the Equal Rights Amendment passed, we're saying that means a lot of things are different. So it's not weird if we have so many women. It's realistic to have so many women in such prominent rows because had the equal rights amendment pass, probably, you know, would have spent things up. So I think it's still grounded because it's based on a different history. I mean, women are in a bunch of prominent positions in science and politics just at lower numbers than they are in our show. So one of my favorite episodes of the show is one that you specifically have your name on as the writer. I know there's a whole process there with the writer's room,

but I wanted to hear more about writing this episode. It's episode 305 when they arrive on Mars. And there's an attempt to land, but they can't make it because of bad visibility and somebody else lands and they have this exciting scene about racing to be the first person to step onto the soil of Mars. Can you tell us about what it was like to write that episode? What were the challenges for you as a writer balancing the science and the drama? One of the challenges was how do we make timing realistic? We were talking about, you know, you're approaching Mars and then you do a burn to get into an orbit around Mars and then you do a de-orbit burn and then you do a de-orbit burn and then do a landing burn. And just figuring out the timing of when you're making the decision, you know,

if you make the decision to go around once more and somebody does it, there's a big gap there until you come back around again. And we wanted to keep that excitement of not knowing who's going to make it. So exactly when to pull the plug on the decision making. Also, when do you find out what and how at one point we had talked about breaking a communication antenna. At one point, we had parachutes. I know for the size of Sojourner one with real day technology, wouldn't have parachutes. But just to give us something dramatic that can go wrong. So there were those talks of like, do we break something? Do they have to change something mid-landing? But there was enough tension just between who's going to land first that we didn't feel like we had to break

something in the process of the land. Something does break after they land, but we didn't have to break something in the process of the landing. Also, originally, it was written as a vertical landing for Sojourner 1, but that would have presented some challenges for production, for actually shooting it. So we changed the landing, but it was, it was going to be like that. It got changed. Very cool. So I also pulled some of our listeners for questions to ask you. Here's a couple from them.

First question was, do they have the whole four-season story arc plotted out? Or is it sort of organic that it develops from season to season? So much before I ever joined the show, there was a plan. It was a plan for more than the four seasons that have been announced. So, you know, when writers pitch and sell a show, they have a vision not just for the first season, but for the entirety of the show. So there was definitely a vision for the whole show in terms of how much we're adhering to that, it's changing. As you actually hit a season, you still keep the north star of where you hope the show ends eventually someday, but how you're

getting there changes as you're learning and discovering about your characters. Awesome. And then the last question from listeners was folks wanted to understand better how it was possible. for the Russians, the Americans, to not notice North Korea launching and landing on Mars. How do you guys figure that out from a story point of view? So our idea was that it was supposed to be an unmanned probe, a very large unmanned probe that crashed. So the surprise is that it's not that they had that launch. They knew something was launched for North Korea to Mars. The surprise is that, oh, my God, this wasn't unmanned.

So they saw it when they left Earth. They knew, you know, it was just one of the failed North Korean launches to Mars. Nobody thought it was man. North Korea didn't make a big deal of it because it wasn't successful. All right. Excellent. Well, thanks very much for answering all of my questions. And the listeners can follow your work on this show.

Do you have other projects that you'd like to tell us about that we might be able to check out your writing in other venues, novels or television or other shows? I got to work on the first season of Seal Team that's currently on Paramount Plus that was originally on CBS. And I had the pleasure of working on the first room that got together for Andor on Disney Plus. As happens very often in TV, later they brought in another crew and ultimately became Tony Gilroy's room. And I got to work on Section 31 that so hasn't made it to air, which is a Star Trek show. and hopefully that will make it to air someday, but again, different crews have been brought in in the development process of that one. And now I have the pleasure of being on for all mankind. On the side, I'm working on a future right now. Early days, we'll see if when it makes it out to the world.

And as always, I also develop pilots. But again, we'll see if when it makes it into the world. Well, congrats on all of your success and we're inspired by the gambles that you've taken. and good luck with all those projects. All right, pretty interesting. She seems to be really curious about this idea of space exploration. Yeah, you can hear in her voice. She's enthusiastic about this alternative universe. I think a lot of us who saw the space race early on

and the excitement of that are kind of disappointed in how that played out, that we don't have more energy and more investment and more research into space technology. So it's fun to imagine that universe where the politics sort of forced it to happen, sort of made the country continue to invest in this way and what was possible. You know, in that alternative universe, they're already on the surface of the Mars in the 90s. Oh, you just spoiled the show, Daniel. You weren't going to get out of that spoiler, but you just did.

I mean, they're attempting, at least, to land on Mars in the 90s. But maybe I wonder if the problem is that a lot of people think like, hey, space expression sounds great, but I don't want to do it. That's certainly my scenario. But I don't think we're lacking for astronauts. It's a lot of people on that list who want to. to go out into space. I think the bigger challenge is people are wondering about what our priority should be. Should we spend money on space or should we try to solve problems down here on Earth? And one way to think about it is whether or not it really is a choice between

those two things, whether or not it's possible to do both. Right. Like maybe you can cure cancer and just watch space exploration on TV on a show like for all my time. No, no, that's not what I mean. Or maybe you can cure cancer in space, right? There you go. That's what I'm talking about. Maybe we should host a podcast in space. Well, technically we are in space, Daniel. I don't know if you've heard, but the Earth is in space. So then I've gone to space already, you're saying. We're all aliens.

Yeah. Well, you're still on Earth. But you're not an alien. But, yeah, technically all humankind are astronauts. We're all hurling through the galaxy and through the cosmos and this little spaceship called Earth. I'm so proud of our bravery as we sit on our couches. Yeah, I'm not sure it took a lot of bravery just to,

get out of the womb and walk around and look for snacks. Voluntary or not, we are astronaut. All right, well, check out the show for All Mankind. Playing now streaming on Apple TV. Three seasons are out and they're working on season four. All right, check it out and dream of going to space or dream of other people going to space, whichever is easier. Thanks for joining us.

See you next time. Thanks for listening and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. On the new podcast, America's Crime Lab, every case has a story to tell, and the DNA holds the truth. He never thought he was going to get caught, and I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha.

This technology's already solving so many cases. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's Honey German, and I'm back with season two of my podcasts. Yes, come again. We got you when it comes to the latest in music and entertainment with interviews with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition? No, I didn't audition.

I haven't auditioned in like over 25 years. Oh, wow. That's a real G-talk right there. Oh, yeah. We'll talk about all that's viral and trending with a little bit of cheesemeter and a whole lot of laughs. And of course, the great bevras you've come to expect. Listen to the new season of Godias Come Again on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. podcast. I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the psychology podcast. Here's a clip from an upcoming

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