Daniel and Kelly’s Extraordinary Universe - What will the Lucy mission teach us?

Episode Date: September 15, 2022

Daniel and Kelly walk through the trajectory of the Lucy mission and talk about what it might teach us about our origins. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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of Family Secrets. We continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. Listen to Family Secrets Season 12 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. into comic books with like cats and dogs that have big sweet little eyes and you know things with with really cute little animals well have you tried to hook them on like the grandest mystery of all time no i am on to you this is probably about planet killing asteroids or the death of the sun you are definitely going to be finding some way to frighten my kids right my gosh kelly i would never oh man oh yeah why don't i believe you no the grandest mystery is not at all about death and destruction It's about the birth and the creation of planets. Well, that sounds more like a romance than a mystery. It's a bit of the astronomical birds and bees. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor of UC Irvine,

and I love seeing new planets get together. born. And I'm Kelly Wienersmith. I'm a parasitologist with Rice University, and I love hearing about new planets being born. Do you love getting those announcements like, come check out our new cute little planet? It's got little googly eyes. Yeah, that's the best. No, I guess baby planets actually aren't that attracted. They're like, you know, covered in lava and pretty nasty looking, actually. Well, you know, I'm going to go ahead and blow your mind here and say that, you know, human babies are kind of, kind of gross. Oh, I'm so glad you admitted that. I'm so glad you admitted that. I'm I totally agree with you.

Like, there's a rare cute baby, but most of them look like, you know, Richard Nixon or like Winston Churchill or something on a bad day. I saw one that looks like Danny DeVito. And I was like, man, you know, it's a good thing that parents love their babies. It is a good thing. And I'm sure for you, dear listener, your baby is the one cute baby out there. Really gorgeous. Great job with that kid. Amazing.

Amazing. A plus. But the joy of life and the joy of life. and the joy of seeing your friends have kids is not because their baby is necessarily cute. It's because it's an incredible process because what you're witnessing is the creation of new life and the continuation of this incredible journey. And in the astronomical context, the same is true. We are excited to see the birth of new planets, not just because that planet is cute and lava-colored,

but because it tells us something about our context where we came from how our planet was born. But I bet it's a lot more complicated than just watching human babies. I don't know. Do you have to feed planets? You have to change their diaper? I mean, they never wake up screaming, do they? Those are all excellent points. Yes. If all you have to do is look through a telescope, you should consider yourself lucky. And looking through telescopes is mostly what we do, because we're interested in solving this detective mystery, in unraveling the story of the creation of our own solar system, in understanding how Earth got to be where it is. And is that unusual? Are there other Earths out there in other solar systems? All these questions

can be answered, but first we have to dig up clues, clues that lie in wait for us all over the solar system. And we need to get money to do that. Now, some of those clues, of course, are right here on Earth. You know, we can dig into the crust of the Earth and understand things about the formation of the Earth, things that have shocked previous generations of scientists. Imagine living in a time when we thought the Earth might be like thousands of years old. We had no idea of the geological timescale. I like reading those stories. stories about people who study glaciers or geology and come up with these calculations, they're like, hold on a second, this suggests the Earth is billions of years old. That's crazy. It must be wild to

come up with a finding like that and think, my goodness, how am I going to convince everybody that we've been off by so many orders of magnitude? It's one of those like open your third eye sort of moments, like you've been smoking banana peels around the campfire and you suddenly have this new vision, right, of the way the universe works. Jokes aside, that for me is like my science. scientific fantasy to make a discovery that just like pulls the rug out of our entire understanding of how everything works like what this is super crazy old that's amazing but so i assume that those kinds of discoveries happen less frequently the longer science goes on what do you think your chances are of having one of those moments oh i think that there are lots of opportunities left i think actually

as time goes on in the last hundred years our estimate of the fraction of knowledge we have about the universe just keeps dropping and dropping and dropping. Like, we keep making discoveries like, oh, turns out 80% of the matter out there in the university is something else nobody's ever studied before. Oh, it turns out two thirds of the energy in the universe is something weird and new and bonkers like dark energy. So as time goes on, we certainly learn more, but we realize that we have a smaller and smaller fraction of the total knowledge than we thought.

So I think there's lots of discoveries ahead. What do you think? I think you need to pass the banana peel because you just blew my mind. Well, one of the ways that we find these things is by looking for sort of like time capsules. We try to figure out what has been undisturbed since the early times of the solar system. To find like a scoop of the early solar system and study it before everything has gotten like messed up in the intermediate ages. And one way we can do that, of course, is look into the earth, but the earth is sort of dynamic. You know, like the earth is four and a half billion years old, but also a lot of stuff has happened on Earth.

And so one thing we can do is like look on Earth for really, really old rocks that might tell us like, hmm, what was Earth put together from? What were the basic building blocks of the Earth? What was going on in the solar system, four and a half billion years ago that led to the formation of the Earth? But you know, there's something puzzling there. I don't know if you have the same sense, Kelly, when we talk about like the age of rocks. I remember hearing about this when I was a kid and being like, what do you mean the age of rocks? Like that rock is made out of like iron and silicon and carbon. That stuff is super duper old.

What are you talking about the age of rocks? Did that confuse you when you were a kid? Yeah, no, absolutely. And even sometimes I still find it a little confusing now to think about rocks having different ages. Yeah. And I think the way to think about it is not in terms of like the building blocks of the rocks. Like pick up a rock that's in front of you. It's got in it elements.

And those elements were formed at the hearts of stars or in supernovas or in neutron star collisions. that may be much, much older than our solar system, right? Because our solar system is like 4.5 billion years old. But the universe is almost 14 billion years old. And there's been many cycles of this process where stars pull together with helium and fuse heavier and heavier elements and then blow that out into the universe and make the raw materials for new solar systems.

So like the iron that's in your body may be much, much older than our solar system. But when we talk about the age of rocks, we're not talking about the age of the stuff inside of it. We're talking about the age of this arrangement. So it's sort of like if you have a pile of Lego pieces, you know, and somebody puts something together and then it sits on your shelf for a few years. How old is that like Lego dinosaur that your kid built? Well, it's five years old, right?

Because that's when he put it together. Not 25 years old, the age of the Lego pieces. So it's more like the age of the arrangements of the things that make it this current rock that sort of defines the age of the rock. Does that make sense? That does make sense. But this sounds like a lot of looking down. for an astronomer to be doing.

Don't you guys usually look up? Well, we like to look up, right? We like to see how things are going outside in the universe, but that's a lot harder to look at, right? And so typically people do dig around and try to find asteroids that have hit the Earth recently because asteroids are these incredible time capsules. While the Earth has gone through all sorts of cycle

of like melting and reforming and the rocks here can be fairly young, right? We have like rocks that were formed yesterday. You go to Hawaii and you like pick up a piece of lava that's, you know, still a little warm, that rock is like, you know, a week old. A baby rock. Cute little baby rock, right? But there are some rocks in the solar system that were formed four and a half billion

years ago in those early moments when people were putting those Lego pieces together and haven't really been doing much since, right? They didn't get pulled into a planet. There's just sort of like the leftover bits. Like when you're making bread and your countertop and there's all that flower left over that didn't like make it into the bread, right? It's sort of the leftover ingredients and stuff that didn't make it into the solar system. You know, it still blows my mind that we can pick up a rock and be like,

you're not from around here and figure out what rocks came from the solar or, you know, from outside Earth and which ones were born here. It is really incredible. And it's a testament to all of this careful work by geologists, understanding how rocks can form. What are the conditions to make this kind of rock? The amazing thing to me is that these rocks are sort of stable. Like some kind of rocks you can only form under. crazy conditions, super high pressure, but then you can take them and put them on the surface of

the earth and they stay that way, right? They don't like automatically revert and melt back to their basic ingredients. It's not like ice where you can make it in the freezer, but then when you take it out, it turns back into water. These rocks, you make them in crazy conditions and then they just sort of like freeze that way forever. Even if you bring them to new conditions, that's sort of amazing. Like, that's the only reason why a lot of geology is possible. It's very helpful of them. It's very helpful of them. Exactly. And just like when we talked about in the episode about where is most of the water on Earth, you know, there are some of these rocks that are formed like in the presence of water and trap water inside of them and then come up to the surface and you can like

get a little core sample of what's going on deep under the Earth. It's really amazing. That is really amazing. So we've done a lot of work here on Earth to try to understand like how Earth was formed and we've picked up rocks we think came from space. But scientists are impatient to learn more and want to understand how the solar system was formed. And so, of course, we want to look at asteroids like in situ. We want to go to the asteroids and visit them ourselves and study them and see, like, what are these basic building blocks of the universe? Why are there these Legos left over that nobody put together into planets?

And that sounds really hard. It does sound really hard. But fortunately, we have really clever people with really fun beards who are working on this project. Did you say with really fun beards? With really fun beards, exactly. That's really important. It's not important that people have beards while working on these projects. Beards are not necessary, but the project we're talking about today is led by somebody with a really awesome Santa Claus style beard.

Nice. That always makes me feel very comforted to see somebody with the Santa Claus style beard. I feel like they're going to give me something nice, and I want to sit next to them. And so on today's episode, we'll be asking the question. What will the Lucy mission? teach us. And in fact, the Lucy mission is headed by Harold Levison, which if you Google him, he's got an awesome smile and a huge beard. And he looks like he's about to give us all science presents. Oh, do you know him? Is he Santa-esque in personality as well? I don't know him, but I did

actually watch a video with him. And he's like bubbling over with excitement and enthusiasm. He's like a kid on Christmas morning about to unwrap secrets of the universe. Oh, I just looked up a picture and I like him already. He does look like him. He's a happy looking guy. I know. It's a lot of fun. And so the reason that Harold is so excited about these asteroids and the reason I'm so excited about these asteroids is that they might contain secrets about the formation of our solar system. They might even have hints about the formation of life on Earth. You know, during the early solar system, we think that some of the carbon-based molecules and the other volatile materials that serve as a building blocks of life, some of those

may have actually been brought to Earth via asteroid and commentary impacts. So if we can go out and understand like what's in these asteroids, are there organic molecules out there? We might get a better clue to understand how life on Earth form, not just the planet, but like the critters on top of it. Well, so like there's nobody who's proposing that life started on asteroids and got deposited here, but the idea is that the building blocks of life were on the asteroids and got deposited here and then life could come about.

Is that right? I don't think it's fair to say nobody's proposing that. that somebody out there is definitely thinking that. I'm not sure if it's just the person who currently has the banana peel. You probably heard the idea that life may have started elsewhere and then landed on Earth. You know, we are all Martians, sort of an idea. You know, that's not necessarily well found that it's just speculation. But it is a question, like, what do we find out there in the asteroids?

Is it just the basic building blocks of life? Are there complex organic molecules out there formed in the collisions of objects in the early solar system? We just don't know. big question mark because we haven't gone to look. And what we do know is that the universe holds lots of surprises for us. Every time we dig into something, we find things that are shocking that upend our understanding of the universe. So it's always worth looking. And there's always good job security. You'll always find the next question. Way to make it cynical. I mean, I'm just waxing poetic here about knowledge for knowledge's sake. And you're like, Daniel, you're just worried

about your 401k. That's the role I play in this, Diane. I'm okay with that. I'm not. I'm dream killer in my relationship with Zach too. All right, well, unless this turns into a marriage therapy podcast, let's move on and talk about what we can learn about the early solar system. And so as usual, I was curious if this was a mission that people had heard about, if people knew what the Lucy mission might teach us, what makes it unusual, what its special abilities are, and specifically what questions it might answer for us about the nature of our own solar system.

So I went out there as usual and asked folks to comment on these questions. If you'd like to participate in this fun game for a future episode, please don't be shy. Write to us to questions at danielandhorpe.com. So think about it for a minute before you hear these answers. What do you think the Lucy mission might teach us? Here's what people had to say. I have not heard of this mission, but I do know that physicists and astronomers like to name things with acronyms. So whatever the mission will teach us, I am sure it is within the name somewhere in acronym form.

So from what I understand, I mean, I guess it's going to teach us more about the makeup of those asteroids and, in turn, the makeup of our solar system. Okay, I think I just saw news about the Lucy Mission, something about the solar panels, maybe not deploying correctly. But hopefully if all goes well, I'm pretty sure the Lucy Mission is looking at asteroids and how. they helped form primordial planets when the solar system was forming, or at least I think that's the goal of the mission. I think it's going for the Trojan asteroids that they go in front and back of Jupiter. Everybody thinks that these asteroids, they are from the beginning of the formation of a solar system. and it will teach us a lot about how and when and a lot of things about solar system.

I actually have no idea what the Lucy mission is, but I hope it results in less clickbait about asteroids coming very close to Earth. If I remember correctly, the Lucy mission is going to bring information about the composition of asteroids, like what is inside an asteroid? So I really liked the first answer because it was the first thing that I thought of. And so NASA does love some acronyms. Is Lucy an acronym? Unfortunately, no.

Lucy is actually not an acronym, but there is a funny story there. The Lucy mission is named after the Lucy Fossil, which is this famous ancient fossil dug up in Africa, that's sort of a missing link that shows like a... an important step in human evolution. And that fossil, of course, is famously named after the Beatles song, Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds, which, of course, was written after the Beatles themselves had been smoking banana peels.

So there is a connection there. Oh, good. Good. Yeah. We're all connected in some way. But the concept is the reason they named it after a fossil is that they think of asteroids as fossils. They're like, these are captured bits from earlier times.

This is like a snapshot of work. What was going on four and a half billion years ago? If we dig into this, we can understand something about the solar system at a time when we don't otherwise have access to it, right? In the same way, like, biologists would love to go walking around Africa two million years ago and see, like, who's climbing in the trees, right? But we can't. Instead of we have to just look at the fossils as a way to get a sense for what was going on

back then. And have we thought of asteroids as the fossils of the solar system for a long time? Or is that sort of a new idea? That's a really good question. I think in the last few decades, it's definitely been understood that asteroids play this vital role in understanding our solar system. As we've developed this idea for how the solar system formed, you know, I think for a long time, we imagined maybe everything just sort of like came together harmoniously that you start with this big cloud of gas and dust who just sort of collapsed gravitationally. Now we know that the solar system probably had a lot more drama in it than we previously imagined. There's this model of how the solar system formed called the Nice model, named after the city in France, where it was developed.

And actually Harold Levinson played a big role in the development of this model. And it suggests that some of the big planets, Uranus, Neptune, Saturn, were formed closer to the sun than they are now, right? That these big planets are more likely to form closer to the sun, and that later they got sort of kicked out, that the gravitational interactions between these things were unstable. And some of them got kicked out further into the solar system. And actually, we may have even lost a giant planet in the process. And you and I did an episode about like, where is Jupiter now and where has Jupiter been? And we think that Jupiter may have started on the outside and then migrated in and then been pulled back out by Saturn.

And in the process, we think that these leftover ingredients, these asteroids, probably got scattered all over the solar system. And so I think like this recent understanding of this process to form a solar system has given asteroids special importance. Interesting. So I know that you can find asteroids in the main asteroid belt, which is out past Mars, but before you get to Jupiter. And then there's also near Earth asteroids, which are a little closer. Are they all fossils of the solar system? Or did some of those come about at different times? Or did they just sort of like end up in different places, but all sort of started at the same time? We don't really know. So as you say, there's this main belt of asteroids extends between Mars and Jupiter from like 2.1 to 3.3 AU. One of the interesting things about the main belt is that there seem to be several populations of asteroids. There are these carbonaceous asteroids with a lot of carbon in them called C types. There are these stony S-type asteroids. Then there's some really rare M-type asteroids that have a lot of heavy metals in them. And there also seem to be some that are like rubble piles. and other ones that are really compact. And one of the questions we have is like, do these, in fact, all come from the same original place in the solar system where they gather together in some of these crazy events, you know, where Jupiter is throwing stuff in and out of the solar system? Is this just like the remnants of the mess? Like you come home after you're leaving your kids for an hour and the floor is covered in Cheerios and also in toys.

And you're like, huh, were they eating toys and Cheerios together? Where those different crazy moments in the hour I left them, right? It's a fun detective mystery. Quote, unquote, fun. Exactly. Who made a mess of my solar system? That's really the question we're asking today. So, like, I'm picturing now that room that you talked about.

And I'm also picturing, you know, sci-fi movies that I've watched where they've had to move through the asteroid belt. And the asteroids are really packed in there super close together. Is that, like, would you be, like, dipping and dodging as you go through? Or are they actually more spaced out and, like, just for, you know, dramatic effect in the sci-fi movies. They're really close together. They're really spaced out. And so those pictures you have of like the Millennium Falcon, like dodging and dipping or whatever, you can't go evading stormtroopers in the asteroid belt because they're really spaced out. I mean, there are a lot

of asteroids and the mass adds up to a non-trivial amount. But also space is really, really big, especially as you get further and further from the sun. Like the amount of volume grows as the radius cubed, right? So like the space between Mars and Jupiter, there's plenty of room there. for lots of asteroids, and you could probably stand on one and not see any others from the surface of it. Oh, I kind of feel like a dream of mine has died. You are ruining sci-fi movies for me. You too are a dream killer, Daniel.

But I'm making asteroid mining more realistic, right? Because it's easier to get in and through the asteroid belt, if indeed you can stop, right? Isn't this something people imagine that we could like stop on asteroids and dig up a huge chunk of plutonium or platinum or something, these incredible. minerals that exist on the asteroids. Yeah, but it's complicated by things like how do you land on a rubble pile or how do you wrangle a giant, you know, C-type asteroid. These things are complicated.

But yes, you're right. It will facilitate things that you don't have to worry about one asteroid slamming into another while you're trying to get your work done. And, you know, I've heard people criticize asteroid mining is ridiculous. Like, how would you bring a huge chunk of platinum back to Earth? And that would be super expensive and crash the market, et cetera. But have you done any research into like asteroid pit stops? say you're on a ship and you need extra fuel and you're going through the asteroid belt and

you stop on a frozen blob and extract some ice from it and get some hydrogen. Is that more realistic? Because you don't need to bring it back to Earth and sell it. You can actually like use it for your own local purpose. Well, but so I mean, so in your example, you are at the asteroid belt on your way somewhere else. And where else would you be on your way to in the next like couple hundred years? You know, like I don't imagine us having, you know, homes on Enceladus for quite a long time. Well, I was going to say, I can imagine if you live on Mars, maybe you'd want to go out to the asteroid belt for some building materials like you go to Lowe's or Home Depot.

But, you know, I think for a while the Martians will be trying to use stuff on Mars. So maybe at some point the asteroid belt will be helpful as a waypoint or a supply point, but I think it's a little bit far off. All right, but I'm hearing it's not impossible, folks. Not impossible we could be making pit stops in the asteroid belt. I think it might happen one day. I do. Well, one of the most interesting things about the asteroid belt to me is that the asteroids

are not just confined to the asteroid belt. Like, we're all familiar with that, but it turns out that there are more asteroids in the solar system than just the ones in the main belt. There are two clumps that are super fascinating that are called the Trojans. These are two blobs of asteroids that are not in the main belt. They're actually in Jupiter's orbit. Like one orbits the sun ahead of Jupiter and one orbits the sun behind Jupiter. Are they trying to sneak into Jupiter?

Well, one of them is called the Greek camp and the other one is called the Trojan camp. So I'm sure they've like got billion year long nefarious plots that they are hatching. They're very patient. They're very patient. But no, these guys are hanging out in sort of Lagrange points. Lagrange points became famous sort of when James Webb Space Telescope launched and people learned about how it's living at L2, this stable orbit. If you have two massive bodies in the solar system, there are only a few places you can hang out where you can be stable. like the gravitational tug is not going to change where you're orbiting.

One of those is L1. So, for example, in the Earth and the Sun, L1 is a point between the Earth and the Sun. You can hang out right there and you're gravitationally stable. Nobody's tugging you out of that spot. L2 is the same, but on the other side of the Earth, like in the shadow of the Earth. And that's where James Webb is. L3 is like on the other side of the Sun than the Earth. But there's also these other two points, L4 and L5, which are stable,

where you're like 60 degrees behind the Earth. Earth or Jupiter 60 degrees ahead of the Earth or Jupiter. And you can orbit stably there. So they think that back when the crazy days, when Jupiter was scattering Cheerios and asteroids all over the solar system, because the parents weren't around, that some of them landed in L4 and L5 and have been hanging out there ever since. Interesting. I thought some of those were only like mostly stable, but you still still kind of drifted, but like are all of those stable, like those asteroids are not going anywhere for as long as we, you know, were to be able to go and Well, none of these points are like totally stable. Even L2, right? It's not a hundred percent stable. You can get boosted out of it. And L4 and L5 are less stable than L1, two, and three. But they've been there for a long time, right? Those guys have been floating there. We think for billions of years. And so they found a little sweet spot. Also, the other thing that makes these unstable is that there's more than one thing. So there's complicated dynamics. All of this goes out the window. If you get bumped by your neighbor and now you have like a new velocity vector that takes you in another direction. But you know, it's been billions of years and lots of the bumps.

have happened, and so these things are mostly flying around pretty happy, and we expect that they will stay there, most of them, for billions of years. Of course, occasionally you get collisions and things fall into the solar system and wipe out dinosaurs, etc. Yeah, a little thing like that. So is there any reason to be interested in these relative to what's happening in the main asteroid belt? Would they be easier for us to send something to go study, for example? No, these are not easier to get to, but we think that they might have a different collection of stuff than the other asteroid belts. everything in the solar system seems to have like a different composition of the stony type and the metal type and the carbon type. And so people haven't studied these nearly as much. And so it's sort of like an untapped pocket.

It's places people haven't explored yet. Well, so it seems like there's lots of places that would be fun for Lucy to visit. Where is Lucy going? Right. So Lucy is a really fun and very exciting mission that's going to explore a lot of these things. I want to get into more about it and exactly what Lucy is going to tell us about the nature of the solar system, but first, let's take a quick break. December 29th, 1975, LaGuardia Airport. The holiday rush, parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then, at 6.33 p.m., everything changed.

There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal. Apparently the explosion actually impelled metal glass. The injured were being loaded into ambulances, just a chaotic, chaotic scene. In its wake, a new kind of enemy emerged, and it was here to stay. Terrorism. Law and order, criminal justice system is back. In season two, we're turning our focus to a threat that hides in place. plain sight. That's harder to predict and even harder to stop. Listen to the new season of

Law and Order Criminal Justice System on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My boyfriend's professor is way too friendly, and now I'm seriously suspicious. Well, wait a minute, Sam, maybe her boyfriend's just looking for extra credit. Well, Dakota, it's back to school week on the OK Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, My boyfriend has been hanging out with his young professor a lot. He doesn't think it's a problem, but I don't trust her. Now, he's insisting we get to know each other, but I just want her gone. Now, hold up.

Isn't that against school policy? That sounds totally inappropriate. Well, according to this person, this is her boyfriend's former professor, and they're the same age. And it's even more likely that they're cheating. He insists there's nothing between them. I mean, do you believe him? Well, he's certainly trying to get this person to believe him because he now wants them both to meet. So, do we find out if this person's boyfriend really cheated with his boyfriend?

professor or not. To hear the explosive finale, listen to the OK Storytime podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness, the way it has echoed and reverberated throughout your life, impacting your very legacy. Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro. And these are just a few of the profound and powerful stories I'll be mining on our 12th season of Family Secrets. With over 37 million downloads, we continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. I can't wait to share 10 powerful new episodes with you, stories of tangled up identities, concealed truths,

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This season, we're going even deeper into the world of music and entertainment, with raw and honest conversations with some of your favorite Latin artists and celebrities. You didn't have to audition? No, I didn't audition. I haven't audition in, like, over 25 years. Oh, wow. That's a real G-talk right there. Oh, yeah.

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So, Daniel, you were just about to tell us where Lucy is going. So Lucy is actually going to visit eight different asteroids on this one trip. It's kind of crazy. They're going to stop by one main belt asteroid and then it's going to go visit seven Trojans. It's going to go both to the Trojan camp and to the Greek camp. The whole thing is this crazy zigzag around the solar system. So how did they pick their one main asteroid belt one to visit? That must have been a hard choice. Actually, it's funny. They're visiting one called Donald Johansen, which is named after the discoverer of the Lucy fossil itself, right? So the Lucy mission is going to go visit the Donald Johansson asteroid. So there's a part of me that thinks it

would be sort of beautiful to have that connection and that that's a fine reason to pick it. But there's another part of me that feels like there must be a better criteria for picking which out of all the main belt asteroids you're going to visit. And so why did this one get picked? Well, part of it is just what is possible. You know, in the solar system, things move slowly. And so If you want to visit stuff, you have to visit stuff that happens to be fairly close to each other at the time that you are there. For example, one of the reasons that, like, Voyager and Pioneer could visit so many planets back in the 70s is that there was this window when you could fly out from the inner solar system and visit those planets as they came around the sun. Some of these things have super duper long orbits. And so this is dictated mostly just by what's going on in the solar system.

And actually, there's a hilarious story about how they designed this mission. The original plan was like, okay, here's two asteroids, we're going to plan to visit, and they plan the whole trajectory. And then in 2014, before NASA selected this as a mission, Brian Sutter, a longtime mission trajectory designer, was walking Harold Levinson through a computer simulation of the proposed route. And Levison was like, hold on a second, we're going to come kind of close to this other one, Patricklis, which is this pair of Trojan asteroids that orbit each other. And this is like one of his favorite Trojans. It's this weird binary pair where Patroclus and Mnicious are like rotating around each other. It's super fascinating. And as he saw like the projected trajectory of Lucy, he's like, wait a second, can we stop there at the time?

And so Sutter's like, hmm, you know what? I think we could. And so then they went and they like dug through the orbit to see like, what else are we going by? And he fed like 750,000 known asteroid orbits into this crazy Excel spreadsheet. What? Yeah, spent months running calculates. on it. And so they used Excel to design the trajectory of this thing and found all these other opportunities. And they ended up adding, you know, six different stops. So this thing went from

visiting two asteroids to visiting eight asteroids because of basically, you know, science Santa Claus enthusiasm and Excel spreadsheets. That's awesome. On the one hand, I can imagine the guy who thinks his job is done. And then someone's like, well, what about this? And being like, oh, like I've had so many moments in science where I've been like, oh, I thought I was done, but that's awesome. So we have to find out. I know. It's like when you're driving between two errands and you're like, oh, there's a donut shop. I don't really want to stop, but I do want a donut, right? That's right. And so you stop because it's, duh. So this mission is going to visit more different destinations and independent orbits than

any other space mission in history. And I totally encourage you to Google the Lucy trajectory because it's kind of bonkers. So it launched already. It launched it in October 2021. And it's starting out, it's going to take like two different gravity assists around the Earth over the next few years to try to get up a little bit of speed

before launching out into the outer solar system. That's incredible. To me, the fact that we ever figured out gravity assists is also incredible. So, okay, we're going to spend a little time hanging out with our buddy the Earth for a while. And then what's next? Yeah, and remember the idea of a gravity assist

is just to limit how much fuel you need. You need fuel later on in the mission to help you, like, change course and go from one asteroid to the other. So you want to minimize how much fuel you spend on, like, getting out there to the asteroid belt. And, you know, the more fuel you carry, the more fuel you need, it's a very thin budget.

And so we use gravity assists because it takes longer, but it means you don't need as much fuel. And the way a gravity assist works is that you like swing close by a planet, you come out going another direction. You can actually also pick up a little bit of speed, which is kind of crazy, not just like a totally symmetric operation. You're actually stealing a little bit of energy from the planet that you're gravity assisting

around, like an, you know, imperceptibly small amount of energy. This thing is going to make two swoops around the Earth in 2022 and 2024 and 24. And then by 2025, it's going to go visit this asteroid Donald Johansson, which is in the main belt. That's like four years from starts to initial visit. So like out of the eight places, four years later, it's just reached the first one. When a grant gets funded, what happens to those people for the four years in between? Like, do they have a lot of work to do?

Or is the like trajectory sort of programmed in? They have to monitor it, right? And they have to keep on track of it in case it goes off, of course, et cetera. But there isn't a lot of work in between these stops. So planning these projects is a little tricky, right? You have to have people who have different expertise at different times. And this project is going to last for 15 years. Like some of the data they're going to get in the mid-2030s.

you know, science Santa Claus is not that young. So actually what they've done for the major parts of the mission where the lead is kind of old is that they've designated a successor, like a younger person in their career who can take over in case they need a replacement. You know, this is like Game of Thrones style planning, you know? That's a little morbid, but probably smart. And so I guess no grad students, I mean, maybe you, if you're a grad student working on this project, it's because your advisors on the project and you get some of the data.

Yeah, you have to be careful with students. students and postdocs who have sort of short time horizons working on this stuff. You can do a PhD thesis on a project like this where it's like development of it or, you know, stabilization of it or guidance systems or navigation. And then somebody else can come along and do a PhD thesis as like analysis of the data. Those are all, you know, totally valid contributions. I think these days we recognize that some of these projects have such long time cycles that we need people to work on the initial bits. For example, in particle accelerators, people have been writing PhD Theses on.

the Atlas detector before he was even built, you know, simulated studies for how we should build this kind of thing. It's an important contribution to the field, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, fair enough. All right, so it takes us four years to get to Donald Johansson. And tell me a little bit more about what Donald Johansson is like. We don't really know that much about it, but it's really fascinating. It's actually quite small. It's like only four kilometers wide. But they suspect that it's a fragment of a collision from like 130 million years ago. They think there was a mega asteroid that got smashed into and created like all of this

shrapnel and that Donald Johansen is like a piece of that. And so by studying that, they hope to understand like what happened and what was that big one made out of and sort of like get a sense for the inside of that mega asteroid. Because, you know, some of these things are rubble piles, but some of them have layers. You know, some of these things were like proto planets that sort of started to form and then got arrested because no more material came by. Like there are actually dwarf planets living inside the asteroid belt or like Vesta and Ceres. These are layered with like dense material at their cores.

They were on their way to becoming planets. They had just gotten bigger helpings of the raw materials. Okay. And so, so we start at Donald Johansson and then where are we going next? In 20207, we visit the L4 cloud, which is the Greek camp. This is the one orbiting like 60 degrees ahead of Jupiter. And there it's going to visit a bunch of asteroids and hang out for a little bit. It's going to sort of like swoop through and stop by and check out a couple of them. And then it's going to swing back around and it's going to visit Earth again in 2031, this time to change directions.

So, we can go out to the other Trojan camp. So this is why physics makes no sense. How does it make sense to go back to Earth, to go back out to Jupiter? You guys are tricking us, I think. Well, remember that these things are on opposite sides of the solar system, right? the Greek camp and the Trojan camp are each 60 degrees separated from Jupiter, which means there are 120 degrees separated from each other, and 180 is the opposite side of the solar system. So these Greeks and Trojans are really distant from each other. So if you're at one

and you want to head to the other, stopping by Earth on the way, it's not really like out of the way. We really are the donut shop between two errands. All right, all right. That checks out. So then they go to the Trojan camp, and then there's somewhere to go after that? So then they go to the Trojan camp. There they get to visit a couple of those really interesting asteroids we talked about, Patroclus and Manitius. These are really fascinating because they're orbiting each other. They're like in a very tight binary orbit. Sort of like weights, like a dumbbells spinning around each other, but without any connection

in between them. People don't know is this like part of the process of forming larger objects that you get this like binary in spiral, which gradually comes together to form a larger object? Or is this stable? Could they last like this forever? And one of the fascinating things about this pair is that they don't actually orbit in the ecliptic, right? Most of the stuff in the solar system orbits in sort of like a flat plane, like Venus and Earth and Jupiter and all the way out to like Neptune and Uranus

are mostly in the same disc because they have the same angler momentum as most of the stuff in the solar system. But a few things are a little crazy in the orbit like above or below the ecliptic which means that they're not often in the ecliptic, right? They're like at an angle. And these guys are orbiting above typically the ecliptic and then dip down below. And so they're actually going to pass right through just when Lucy gets there. So it'll be a really rare opportunity to see these guys up close. Man, it seems like this team lucked out in a lot of ways. Yeah, it's a really happy coincidence that they're going to get to visit all of this stuff.

And then after they visit this Trojan camp, they're going to go into a stable six-year orbit back and forth between these L4 and L5 clouds just to get as much data as possible. There's no point in bringing this thing back to Earth. So they figured, like, let's just let it hang out out there and gather as much data as we can until it runs out of fuel. Oh, so the six years is when it runs out of fuel? I think six years is how long it's going to take to go between L4 and L5 after its last visit. So every six years after that, it's going to pass between L4 and L5. And it will continue sending data back?

I guess so is this powered by like a, you know, radioactive material that decays slowly? Is it going to keep sending information or is it going to, you know, peter out? We think it might last for a long time. It actually has solar panels. The way this thing looks is kind of cool. It's like a central blob with two like circular solar panels. It looks a little bit like a tie fighter if you took those wings and flatten them out instead of having them be like parallel to the main ship. And so this thing is capable of gathering energy and sort of living for a long time. It's not going to take a whole lot of energy at that time, you know, just to send messages back to Earth. And so a lot of these missions, you know, they have an official

life cycle, which is pretty short, 10 years, 15 years, but sometimes they can go for a very, very long time if the electronics is hardy enough. Interesting. So this doesn't have like a radioactive heater unit keeping like its core at a normal temperature. It's all solar power. Yeah, this one is just solar power. It doesn't have a blob of plutonium or something else like thermoelectically heating it. So it's relying on photons from the sun and, you know, out there by Jupiter's orbit, there's, of course, a lot less sun than there is out here. But it doesn't take that much energy to operate this thing once it's out there in this orbit. Unfortunately, when they launched this thing,

one of the solar arrays open perfectly, and the other one didn't. It opened only like somewhere between 80 and 95%. They're not 100% sure. And it didn't like latch open. This thing is supposed to like unfold and then like click into place. So they're not exactly sure how much it didn't open and why it didn't open.

They're also like not sure what to do about it. You know, on one hand, it's in okay shape. It's getting a lot of energy. The other hand, you know, maybe they could crack it open a little bit and they're sort of limited in what they could do. They could like press the button again and try it again. But, you know, something else might break. You never know. Oh, that must have been such a devastating moment.

At the moment, do they have any like projections for how many years that might cut off the experiment? Or they're just not thinking about it because maybe they can fix it and they're just going to move on for now. They're just going to move on for now because things are working. And there's always a bit of a buffer, right? When they engineer these things, they always provide more power than they need just in case something like this. happens. And so they think it's not going to cut into the operating of the mission. Of course, it's better to have more power and to not have this like weird mechanical failure. That always makes you worried, right? It's like if you get a new car and something breaks the first week,

you're like, hold on a second. What's next? Exactly. Maybe the whole thing's a disaster. But usually it's fine. Okay. Well, so now we've talked about where it's going to go and what's powering this thing. So let's take a break and then we'll find out what kind of data it's going to collect. December 29th, 1975, LaGuardia Airport. The holiday rush, parents hauling luggage, kids gripping their new Christmas toys. Then, at 6.33 p.m., everything changed. There's been a bombing at the TWA terminal.

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Okay, so we know that we've got these solar arrays, and those solar arrays are going to get used to power equipment. What kind of equipment is Lucy carrying with her? So Lucy has a few different scientific instruments on board. There's a high-resolution camera for just like sort of looking at these things and trying to understand the shape of them and just like the surface. This one big question scientists have is like exactly what is the shape of these things. That'll help them in their models for how these things are formed.

Another is a spectrometer. That's something that very carefully measures the energy of all the photons that you're getting. It tells you like, are you getting green photons or red photons? That's very important for understanding like what's inside these things. How much light are they reflecting? What kinds of light? And then they have a disk of lab grown diamonds or a special infrared spectrometer that's able to measure the energy of photons sort of that on the longer wavelength.

And why would you want to know about that? Because does it just give you more information about what the asteroid is made out of? Yeah, because asteroids are cold, right? They're not hot. They don't glow from their own light. The only time you get light from an asteroid is when the sun shines on it. And so it's always reflected light. Another way you can study these objects is from their own very small amount of heat.

Remember that everything in the universe does actually give off light, just maybe at temperatures that you can't see with the naked eye. So like the sun glows at a certain wavelength in the visible because it's super duper hot. The Earth also glows. If you looked at the Earth in the infrared, you would see it emitting photons, just like you glow, which is why when the predator comes to Earth to hunt humans, it can use its infrared vision to see you, right? Because if your body heat, and so asteroids also glow, but they tend to glow in the infrared.

This is why like the James Webb telescope is going to be really cool at discovering exoplanets. and planetary disks that are forming in the same way using infrared helps you look at these asteroids in their own native light that they are giving off okay and so then you mentioned earlier that asteroids there is what C type D type and P type asteroids so the the way that they glow can tell you how to or can help you differentiate between them is that right that's right and most of the asteroids that we've had a chance to study in depth are the C type the ones that are reaching carbon and most of the meteorites that have landed on earth are these C type but there are other types of asteroids. And these other ones tend to have different colors. Some of these,

the D type and the P type, these are much redder, which means that maybe they have like organic and volatile elements in them. And nobody's ever visited a D type or P type asteroid or gone up close. So by looking at the sort of light that's reflected from it, we can tell, oh, look, it has more carbon or has less carbon or it has more of this crazy element in it. Because remember the things absorb light and reflect light based on their internal. chemical composition. The reason the plant is green is because it has chemicals inside of it, which tend to reflect green light. And that tells you about something that's going on inside it. It tells you about the energy levels of the electrons in those chemicals. So by looking at the

different energy of the light that comes off of these things, you can get a sense for what's inside without even digging into it, right, without like taking a sample and analyzing it in the lab. And so like when we say that an asteroid is C-type or D-type or P-type, is it actually like, you know, 75% C type, but also 25% D type is in there? Or are they really like pretty homogenous? They're definitely not homogenous. And in typical astronomy fashion, we have these categories which are blurry, right? And really these are about what we see. So we call it C type because it looks a certain way. And we call it D type because it looks a different way. And we suspect that that probably means something else is going on underneath. And there are some that are a little fuzzy. You're like, hmm, it's kind of red. What's this one? And so this is just like our. categorization just from studying these things through telescopes and what we need to do is go up there and visit them and get a much more detailed understanding and probably try to overthrow this whole hierarchy of c-type and d-type and p-type and get a better understanding for where these guys came from and what's

been going on with them and it is lucy going to be visiting at least one of each type because lucy is going to be visiting so many afterwards she will get to observe some d types and some t-types and some m types yeah one of the really fun things i think is that lucy's going to be taking these really close up pictures of the surface of these asteroids to try to count the number of craters. They have this high resolution, but black and white camera that's going to like try to count the number of craters on the surface of these things to get a sense for like how much impacts have there been, what's going on out here, you know, are these things mostly just frozen from the early solar system or has it been a lot of activity?

Interesting. That should be, I can't wait to see the photos. Sometimes I wonder like, are photos mostly just for like the general public so that you can convince them the money was spent well? because we really like pictures, but it seems like, no, these will be helpful photos. They certainly will. And we think also that what's going on on the surface of these things and like how much they've been cracked, how much you can like see inside of them from collisions and how much is going on on them will help answer some of these questions about what happened in the early solar system.

Like, was there some big event 500 million years after the solar system was formed when Jupiter got its new location and scattered everything and things have been mostly frozen since then? Or have there been lots of period of activity? things we might not even be aware of that scrambled all of these things and banged them into each other fairly recently. So it's sort of like if you dig up fossils and you discover something fairly modern that tells you the like, hmm, the layers have been mixed or something. So just digging in up there will tell us something about the history of the solar system. It's amazing to

me that you can get so much information just from photos and photons. Yeah. Like this patroclus pair, they're super excited to understand. Like are these surfaces very smooth? Are they totally beat up? You know, answers to these questions will give scientists insight into like the relative age of the Trojan asteroids and the conditions of the early solar system. It's going to be really fascinating. And right now, it's just a lot of questions. People have all these different theories about how the solar system might have formed. And they make very different predictions for like what the asteroids should look like. But because we just don't know, we can't tell, oh, your theory is crazy.

It doesn't match the data because we don't have the data. And we're always in this cycle in physics when the theorists are going crazy with their ideas because we just have it. made the measurements to tell them yes or no about something. And then we finally go out there and we see something. We get to like rule out 95% of their ideas. And they're like, oh, wait, but you didn't measure this, did you? Okay. So now we can go crazy being creative about things you haven't measured.

It's like always this game of the gaps. You go through these bottlenecks. Then the idea is proliferate again. Exactly. And we hope that there would be surprises out there. Lucy's going to look for like rings and satellites of these asteroids. Like the asteroids themselves might have their own like, little mini moons or mini rings around them.

That would be so cute. Cute being a theme of today. There's one that might be pronounced Euribbates that they think has a satellite around it that's just one kilometer in size. And so when they go visit it, they might get to see its own little baby. Oh, that would be wonderful. It would be a lot of fun. And, you know, though we're going to learn a lot about these asteroids, we're going to map the surfaces, we're going to take these color pictures, we're going to determine the masses and the densities. We're going to study all the craters. Another thing we might do is teach future humans

something about us. You mentioned Voyager and they went out into interstellar space. How are we going to teach anyone stuff about us if it's staying here? Well, it's just going to hang out in the solar system, right? It's not going to like leave the solar system or get like crashed into some planetary body. It's just going to keep orbiting L4 and L5 basically forever. And so they put on it a golden plaque. This golden plaque contains its launch date, the positions of the planets at the launch time, what the continents on Earth look like when we launched. And then a bunch of like crazy cultural snippets from, you know, what's going on on Earth right now. There's like Beach by Martin Luther King Jr. Some words from Carl Sagan, songs from the Beatles, of course. And the idea is, you know,

maybe in a thousand years, some humans will find this and they'll be like, oh, look at this crazy relic from the early days. And it might be our own time capsule of what's going on right now to inform future archaeologists about our civilization. Oh, okay. So Voyager, we put stuff on there so that non-humans could learn about us. But this is so that humans in the future can learn about us. What an awesome responsibility to be one of the people deciding what goes on that golden plaque. That's awesome. I know. And it might be humans. It might be trans humans because humans have transformed by so much, it might be our own AI that have, you know, wiped us out and then find this monument to ourselves. Oh, hey, it might be aliens coming to the solar system long after

we have eradicated ourselves and finding this monument we built it to ourselves. You had to end it on like humans dying, didn't you? Of course we had to get back to that. Another episode my kids can't listen to. But, you know, let's end on a positive note. There's so much to learn about the history of our solar system. You were asking, earlier, you know, what discoveries have left to be made? Well, this just highlights how little we have explored, even our own solar system. We've done our best by using telescopes and looking through them to try to understand what's going on, but there's a real limit to what you can do without actually going there. So I'm really excited about this Lucy mission, going out there and

taking these pictures and really examining these solar system fossils to give us a clue about the history and the story of our own solar system. Well, and how exciting to have something to look forward to for the next decade plus as the data come in. That's right. But it's going to be about as slow as like a James Cameron project, you know. The data is just going to drip in like every five years or so. But, you know, we might discover something new, something revolutionary. Maybe we'll find a relic from some other alien civilization that left us an Easter egg in Trojan camp.

We can hope. We can hope. All right. Well, thank you everybody for joining us on this mission to understand the early solar system and what the Lucy mission will teach us about. Got it. And thank you very much, Kelly, for doing us on today's episode. Thanks for having me. I had a lot of fun, as always. All right. And enjoy your time with your real live children. Aw, I will. You do the same.

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