Danny Jones Podcast - #101 - The Mysterious Connection between Owls & UFO Contact | Mike Clelland

Episode Date: July 9, 2021

Mike Clelland began his study of the UFO abduction phenomenon in 2006 as a way to better understand his own personal experiences. He has since collected a wealth of first-hand accounts in which owls manifest in the highly charged moments that surround alien contact. Mike has uncovered a mysterious connection between owls, synchronicities and UFO abduction.  By looking at these elusive and often ignored aspects of the abduction lore, something truly mystical seems to be revealing itself and points to a deeper reality at play in these mysteries.   It was his first-hand experiences with these elusive events that have been the foundation for his research.  Mike has published 3 books on the subject, his first one being "Owls, Synchronicity and the UFO Abductee" - https://www.amazon.com/Messengers-Owls-Synchronicity-UFO-Abductee/dp/0967799570 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello world. Mike Cleland began his study of the UFO abduction phenomenon in 2006 as a way to better understand his own personal experiences. He has since collected a wealth of firsthand accounts in which owls manifest in highly charged moments that surround alien contact. Mike has uncovered a mysterious connection between owls, synchronities, and UFO abduction. By looking at these elusive and often ignored aspects of abduction lore, something for the truly mystical seems to be revealing itself and points to a deeper reality at play in these mysteries. It was Mike's firsthand experiences with these elusive events that have been the foundation of his research. Mike has published three books on the subject, his first one being Owls, Synchronicity, and the UFO Abducty. Without further ado, please enjoy this fascinating conversation with Mike

Clelland. Hello, Mike. Hello, thank you. Thank you for coming on the show. My honor. You've spent the last 10 years studying owls and paranormal phenomenon were surrounding owls. A little more like 15 years, but somewhere there. Well, 2006 was really when I started studying it. I got really active around 2009. Why owls, Mike? Okay, so that's the, that's the, like the premise of,

that's the mystery, basically, why owls? in the mythology of owls, like the old folklore, the ancient mythology, the wives tales, the owls seem to, so for ancient man, owls could see into the night. And I mean, obviously, ancient man would have seen that, would have recognized that, and the mythologies have built up around that.

And not only does the owls, sea into the night and fly in the darkness, the core of the mythologies would be that the owl would fly into the darkness and then return with a message. And that's really consistent across the world's mythologies. So if we update that to present day, you know, the owl in the mythology can travel to other realms, can travel to other dimensions, can travel to the land of the dead, can travel to the land of the gods, can can past that veil in return with a message. Presently, in my research, I'm finding that that parallels much of what I'm finding.

So the ancient mythology is showing up present day in real life events. Now, if we turn the clock back 400 years and we're sitting in a village somewhere in South Dakota, and I had a powerful owl experience, a powerful mystical owl experience. I had an experience with an owl where it feels. felt highly charged, it felt important. I would have had an outlet. I would have been able to go to the shaman at the edge of the village and sit in his tepee and talk about or address the mystery of the owl and the culture would have had some way

to grasp that. We don't live in that world anymore. Like our culture has a tough time grasping the fact that owls have a rich mythic tradition and that it is playing out in real time right. now. So if someone has a real experience with an owl, they're about two mouse clicks away from finding me. If you type UFO's owls, you're going to find me. And so I have been getting these stories, a lot of them, like once a day, I get a really good A-plus story. And so your question was why owls? This is a long answer. But they, owls seem to impart and seem to

hold and seem to have a resonance that punctuates or that colors these paranormal experiences. Now, the core of my study has been UFO stuff, but it certainly goes all over the map. It goes to death. It goes to meditation. It goes to psychedelic drugs. It goes to shamanic initiations. These are all well understood in the folklore that owls play a role. So that they show up in connection with UFOs is really interesting to me

because that overlaps these other things, death, shamanic initiation, and like a psychedelic trip, and also meditation. I think I said that, yeah. So your question, why owls? I wish I had a good, simple answer. I don't because I'm still struggling with what it may or may not mean. Hmm. So how did this whole thing start for you? When did you have your first owl experience? And what made you become so fascinated by owls? So I'm in 2006, I went camping with a woman named Kristen. And I was living at the time in right next to Grand Teton National Park. And I was working for an outdoor school. And she worked for the school too. And I had been in the way all summer. And now this seems really funny. And the culture in that town in that part of the world, right.

next to a national park, like taking some in camping for a first date is pretty normal. So I kind of said, you know, like, oh, you must have camped a lot this summer. You've been here all summer. It was August. Excuse me, it was October when I asked her. And she said, no, I haven't camped at all. I'm like, that's terrible. Let's go out camping.

Let's go out for one night. And she said, yes. So we went out for one night. And we sat under the stars. And we didn't take a tent with us. We knew there was going to be a, the weather was going to be nice. didn't bother taking a tent. So her and I sat as the sun was setting, and I was making dinner on a little camp stove, and the conversation got really deep, like surprisingly deep. And I remember this

is a total stranger, and I'm looking at her, and I'm thinking, like, this is, I didn't expect this depth to this person, this, this spiritual depth to her. And at that moment, an owl flew over us. And then another owl, and then a third owl. So there were a three owl. So there were three owls flying around us as the sun was setting, and we eventually laid our sleeping bags down under the stars, and the owls would still fly over us. They would fly right over our faces, and they would blot out the stars for just one second.

It was so mystical. And after that camping trip, I said, let's go camping again. And she said, okay, and so four days later, we went out for one night again, and this time in another part of the mountains, and it was colder that night. And we had a tent set up. It looked like it might rain.

It actually snowed that night. And we said, I said, let's walk up to that hill before the sun goes down because we can watch the sunset. And it'll give us a chance to warm up so we can climb into the tent a little warmer. So we hiked to the top of the hill. And at the top of the hill, as the sun is setting, three owls land near us, fly around us. And now it happened four days earlier. And they were kind of off in the distance and they would kind of swoop above a. us, but this time it was, they were on the branch right next to us, and one of these owls landed

right at our feet. And I just remember looking at her, and she had this wide-eyed expression of just like total astonishment. And I, now what I didn't say at the time, because it was too weird, and I'm saying it now, I've sort of crossed the line. I've, like, totally abandoned myself to this. I heard a voice in my head, both the first time and the next night. I heard a voice in my head, both the first time and the next night, I heard a voice in my head looking at these real owls that said,

this has something to do with the UFOs. And after that, those experiences, like I kind of felt like I had permission to ask people, have you ever had any odd experiences with owls? And I had a little blog. Oh, excuse me,

I started the blog three years later in 2009. So when I started that blog, one of the questions I put right out there and talked about and wrote about was, you know, like, hey, has anyone had any odd experiences with owls? I want to hear your stories. And what happened is I got flooded with these stories.

And so I've been archiving, cataloging, trying to make sense of these stories, and it has turned into a full-time job. So it's been rewarding in all ways, except financially. But it has been remarkably rewarding to take on this research. Now, just one thing. thing. So when I, on the first couple of days of the blog, I put the story up with Kristen, that was her name, the woman that I took camping. And I, and I, I got back to her, after I had

published the story on the blog, or posted the story on the blog, and I got back to her, I said, what were we talking about? I remember we were talking about something the very first night that we saw the first owls. You were, you were talking about something. She said, oh, I remember exactly what I was talking about, I was trying to do. I was trying to do. I was trying to describe the my deepest, most heartfelt definition of what God means to me. So, like, that takes an already mystical story and really pumps it up into almost the transcendent. So for me, those are the kinds of ethereal clues I'm looking for. Like, I'm not a nuts and bolts UFO researcher.

Like, I have actually gone to sites and measured the burn marks in a yard. I've done that kind of thing. But the real stuff, the real meat of it to me, is this elusive, mystical stuff that seems to be intertwined with the totality of the phenomenon. So how long before you had this first owl experience had you been sort of intrigued or interested in UFOs? Well, I as a boy, as a 12-year-old boy, I was walking home from a high school football game. So the high school football field was close to my house, and it was what all the kids did on a Friday night. And this would have been October.

I was living in Michigan. It was a beautiful night. I was walking home with a friend. And I wanted to be home in time to see a television series. Do you know the TV show Colshack, The Nightstocker? I've heard of it, but I've never seen it. It was a predecessor to the X-Files. It was about a reporter who looks at ghosts and zombies and vampires and stuff like that.

And so I I We got to a point in the neighborhood And there was this bright orange flash in the sky And We both said the same thing We both kind of went, what just happened? And

And all I saw was this orange flash It felt like God flipped a light switch, click The sky turned bright orange, click This went back to normal night Like everything, the whole sky turned bright orange There was no noise then we went through the little checklist. Could it have been like a meteorite?

Could it have been like a telephone pole exploding? Could it have been a plane crash? Did something, none of it made sense. It was totally quiet. It was, and it was jarring. It was really weird. And we both were like, that didn't seem right. So I got to my house.

He went further into the neighborhood. I got home, and my parents were waiting for me. And I walked in the door, and they said, why are you out so late? They were angry at me. I said, I'm not out late. I said, I'd be home at 9.30. I'm home at 9.30 to see the television show that starts at 10 o'clock. And they pointed at the day.

the clock and it was 1130. So somewhere I lost two hours of time, between an hour and a half to two hours of time. Now, if you've read stuff in the UFO literature, like that kind of thing is a tell-tale sign, and that's what a UFO investigator kind of keeps their eye out for. That's a red flag that something else happened. This was 1974. I didn't know any of that. So I was just bummed out that I didn't see this television show, and I was really, like, annoyed that my parents were mad at me for something I didn't do. Like, I didn't understand why I was. I didn't understand why was out so late. So the next Monday morning at school, we're sitting around with my friend, and there was a

bunch of kids at the cafeteria table, and I said, this weird thing happened on Friday night. And my friend interrupts and said, yeah, we saw a UFO with lights and everything. Can I swear on this show? Oh, yeah, absolutely. So he said, 12-year-old boy, and he said, we saw UFO. He said, we saw a UFO with fucking lights and everything. And I was, and I remember thinking, like, I didn't see a UFO. I just saw the sky turn orange.

I've since contacted him, and he does not remember the event. He does remember that my mom was angry at me for coming home late. So that is actually not uncommon within the literature. So, or the literature of, like, UFO studies, that two witnesses will have two separate things. So that's one story beforehand, before seeing the owls. Did you ever tell anybody about this?

that remembers when you told them about it? Oh. Like, do they remember, like, you telling this story prior to the whole owl? You know what I have is I have a, I drew a picture of, oh, yeah, I'll get to an, so that story, my friend remembers that my, my mom was angry or my parents were angry. And, but, yeah, I don't, that's hard to know. That was, that's getting close to 35 years ago, 40 years ago now, so. But, so, so I don't. don't have any evidence of that. I do, I did see a, I was at a friend's house. His name is Kenny. And

it was a sleepover. I was 12 years old. It was probably right around the same time. And he, he pointed out the window, it might have been him or me, pointed out the window, like, what's that? And we went to the window and there was a, this is actually interesting, we have a can here. So there was like a coffee can shape thing. And it was rotating at this really weird angle and sort of descending. Actually, it was more like, it's more like, I can't remember, yeah. it was descending and rotating at the same time. It had like a pencil sticking out the top of this thing. And we watched it for maybe 30 seconds,

and then it just disappeared. Poof, gone. I used to say the lights went out and we couldn't see it anymore. I don't say that anymore because that's not true. What I remember clearly is that it disappeared. It vanished. But I was too embarrassed to say that, like at the time as a 12-year-old boy,

so I said the lights just turned out. I drew a picture of that that same night. And I contacted the fellow with the Ken. and he also doesn't remember it. But he said his mother, he talked to his mom and his mother remembers us drawing it. He and I both drew it, and I still have the picture, that we drew that night after seeing the coffee can-shaped craft. Do you have any of these drawings published on your website? Yep.

All of them published my website. Let's pull up his websites so we can actually show some of this stuff. That'll probably be a good idea. What's your website called? Hidden Experience. It's all one word. And then the image of the coffee can thing would be out, Kenny's window. That would be the, there's a little search box on the right hand sidebar.

You can type in out Kenny's window. And it should pop right up. That'll be good if we're talking about things, whatever. He can pull up some of the illustrations on your website. And your friends that you were sleeping over with, do they remember this experience? No, I only talk to Kenny. Does Kenny, Kenny doesn't remember or he does? He does not remember it. He does not remember. But his mother remembers us drawing it, and I still have the drawing. Yeah, you can see it on the right hand sidebar. scroll down a little bit. And there you can search this blog.

You can just type in. You can type in Out Kenny's window. Hope you just went back. Go up to the right there. Search the right hand sidebar. No, down below that right there. Search this blog, yeah. Out Kenny's window.

Yeah, there we go. So there's the image. So that's an updated drawing that I did recently. Okay. And then scroll down a little bit. You just punch it on that, Jordan. You can double click it and it'll show up big. Okay.

Yeah. So that's a drawing I did recently that captures what I saw. But if you scroll down back to the blog there, there's an image that I drew. There's sort of a strange motion. There was an accompanying little dot of light, a pinpoint of light that, oh, keep on going down. It should, there we go. There's the drawing I did that night. So you drew this the same night, you saw it? Yep. Within minutes. Both Kenny and I drew it. Kenny doesn't have it. So, yeah, you can double click on that. It'll grow up big. Okay, that's fine. So, but So there was an accompanying little dot of light in the sky.

So you can see that I'm kind of, it says the dots are numbered, one, two, three. So when those little dots, it kind of went blink, blink, blink, those dots were not exceptional. That would have looked just like an airplane in the night sky. Nothing unusual about those dots. But when those, that dot, like the coffee can was descending, the dot was traversing across the sky. When those two met up, that's when it disappeared. Wow. So.

So ever since those two experiences, you've kind of been intrigued by UFO phenomenon. I've certainly been intrigued. I didn't start going around 1992 or three. I got a UFO book. I just bought it. I said, well, this is a topic that interests me. And the book was fascinating. It was called the UFO case book by Randalls.

The author's name is Randles. And then I bought another one. I bought another one. Then all of a sudden, it was all I was reading. And that's, so that's almost, whatever, 30 years, 25 years ago, 30 years ago to 1990. Yeah, 1992. So, and there's one more story, which I also did an illustration for. I was 30 years old.

I was living in Maine in 1992, which is interesting. It was about the same time I started reading UFO books. And I woke up in the middle of the night. I was alone at the house and it felt like there was a bright light coming in the window now we had a deer motion sensor light out in the driveway and I kind of thought like what's the bright light and I sat up on my elbow and looked out the window

and there were five gray aliens walking towards the house and they were backlit by a bright white light and I have an illustration of that if you want to bring it up to you. Yeah, yeah we will. wipe in bedroom window. It should come right up in that little box. Gray aliens. So the typical,

prototypical gray alien is the one you see on like the snowboarder bumper stickers and stuff like that. It's the skinny little being. So yeah, you can double-click that. That should get big. Holy cow. So that's, and I did have a little dinosaur on my, I did have a little dinosaur on my, you did have a deal. Yeah.

And they were, they looked just like that. They were standing in a perfect line like that. Well, you know, it was funny. actually were walking on the snow and I tried to draw them walking and it distracted from it so it looked like they were trying to dance or something but they were all in a line like that like to try to draw them walking was a little awkward so they were actually walking but I drew them

standing and they would have been walking now that light in the background would have been about the size of a washing machine you know like it would have been perfect it was like a landed flying sauce but that's not what I that's not my memory and now it's okay if I just go on about this? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, okay.

So, um, please. This, this, accompanying this, like, like I got up the next morning and dismissed it completely as a dream, right? So I, but when I saw this out the window, I looked at this thing, this is scary, right? This should have been, I should have, like, jumped out of bed. I should have, like, locked the doors. I should have, like, grabbed a knife and defended myself. I didn't.

I heard a voice in my head that said very calmly, now is the time to put your head on the pillow. and shut down. And that's exactly what I did. I just rolled over and went to sleep. What also accompanied that moment was this sensation. It was dreamlike,

but it wasn't a dream. I feel strongly that it was not a dream, but it was certainly dreamlike there was a weird clarity, there was a weird quietness to it, there was this sort of head in the fishbowl quality to it, I have since talked to many. This was, this, this, this, I couldn't, I didn't have any place for this memory, this experience.

I could not place this. I just like, so nope, not going to deal with this. This was a dream. Uh-uh, I'm not going there. And, but since then, I have talked to so many other UFO witnesses or witnesses that have had close-up sightings. I talked to one woman, and she described seeing a UFO from a car. like on a L.A., on a street in L.A., and a flying saucer flew over her car and got right above her. And she has some distorted time stuff with that event.

And she said to me, she said, you know, when you have two magnets and you try to push them together, they go click, and you pull them apart and you switch one halfway, and then you try to push them together, they won't, they'll sort of push against each other. This is this kind of warbly sort of energy where they, she said, being that close to the UFO, that flying saucer was like being in between the two magnets in that warbly weird energy. And when she said that, it was like, she knows. She knows.

That's exactly what it felt like. Like, that's the best description I've ever had of that sensation. Within the literature, that's often referred to as the Oz factor. It's not that the scene is quiet. It's that it's too quiet. It's like all the sound is sucked out. So I was seeing that out my window. I had this distorted sense of reality.

and I have felt that a few more times in other experiences, but that to me was the part I couldn't dismiss. I could dismiss it as a dream. I don't really dream that I'm in my own bedroom, right? I don't dream that I sit up in my own bed. I'm always in some other place in my dreams. But that night I felt like I sat up in bed. I saw that out the window.

It probably lasted 20 seconds. And then I heard the voice in my head that said, now is the time to put your head on the pillow and shut down. and the next morning I never even bothered to go out and look if there were footprints in the snow and after this, did you do a sketch of this the next day

or did you say like you said did you try to put it out of your mind? I did a quick sketch of this within a year or so and then I did a more formal sketch I think I did that formal sketch in around 2008, that one there. So you initially, you just tried to dismiss this dream

as just a dream, something that wasn't real. I wasn't going there. until you actually heard other accounts of it and you thought, oh, maybe I should revisit this stream. Maybe it was something that happened. Until I started looking into my own experiences. So after that experience in the mountains with Kristen, I saw a real owl.

I heard a voice in my head that said, this has something to do with UFOs, a message. So I got a message from who knows where it was from. Could have been from my unconscious, could have been from the owls. It could have been, who knows. But I definitely saw real owls and in my head heard the booming words,

this has something to do with UFOs. and I in 2006 really started looking into this stuff. So it would have been after 2006, after that event in the mountains with Kristen, or those two events, that I started looking into these experiences and started really taking it seriously and looking into my own experiences.

Now the question is, am I an abductee? Right. Given these kind of experiences. Right. This is, and an abductee is that, that's a, that's a, That's a lousy term, right? That's the term we're stuck with.

That's an X-Files term. And what I found in the last, you know, what is it, 14, 15 years of research, much of it feels like full-time research is that that's really common that there's this, there's this elusive quality to it. There are some people who have, like, concrete memories. Boom, I remember this event. Right, like Travis Walton's. Oh, yeah, I met him.

Oh, yeah. You met him? Many times, yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah. So he's a very nice guy. He's from the Westwood's. I was living out west. He's a he's a westerner. There's like a kind of stoic, quiet, soft-spoken

quality to the guy. He's not the kind of guy that exaggerates. Right. Yeah. So. And here he recounts everything up to the point of waking up on a table, seeing these beings in there, seeing like actual human-looking things in there. And then after that wakes up on the side of a road. He was gone for five days and he has like 15 minutes of memory. I'm, I haven't, it's been a long time since I've read the book. Did he have any experiences with owls when you talk to him? I've got to be careful what I say, because some stuff he's told me, he's said,

he'll never listen to this, don't worry. No, but I want to be careful what I say. So, you know what? I was in a group of people when he told me this. He said, now this doesn't mean much, but he said his son, as a little baby, as a little child, they had a big macramee kind of embroidered owl in the hallway. Really?

And he said his son was terrified of that owl, that embroidered owl. It was like kind of a simplistic image of a bird with big black eyes. And so that's not much to go on. But he was kind of like, he told me that. And he, you could tell he was, you know, the wheels were turning in his head. That was his only owl experience that was unusual that he told to you. That's the only thing he shared with me. And he's very tight-lipped.

He'll say, like people ask him at conferences, like have you ever had any other experiences? and he'll say, if I had another experience, I would tell no one. Basically telling one experience ruined my life is where he's coming from. Ruined his life in the 70s and 80s and 90s, but now it's becoming some sort of a more accepted thing in modern culture. I mean, it's a thing that every news channel, every blog website wants to talk about because now it's profitable. Now it draws attention and draws clicks.

Yeah. But if given the choice, he never would have. chose this right this in his life have you have you heard his story about how he told he tells how he wakes up in the middle of the night of nowhere and he's running full speed down his hallway to his kid's room and he says his kid is on a top bunk oh no he's he's uh his kid is like they have the rails in the top bunk that sort of like he'd be from falling off the kid it's his son had slipped off and he had his neck wedged between the railing and i guess he like grabbed him and and pulled him out and if he would have stayed there for another 30 seconds he would have

been dead. So he has all these crazy little, he has multiple similar experience I've heard him talk about like that that he can't explain. So, so Mufon is a very dry, you know what, in the, in the literature community, there's like nuts and bolts researchers. That's Mufon, mutual UFO network. It's an organization of UFO researchers. They are very nuts and bolts. And on the other end of the spectrum is this kind of consciousness, love and light thing. And they do not mix these two worlds. Now, the very conservative Mufon has a checklist. You go to a UFO witness's house. It's very this kind of stuff, what time, what day,

which direction was going, can you draw a picture of it? Did, you know. It's very scientific. Well, yeah, it's very analytical. And in that checklist, they say, ask the witness, have you had any, has your psychic abilities changed since you're sitting? This is like the dry people. This is like, and then, you know, like the people who like ain't going there. They're not going to, and it's right in there in the checklist. Is any, have you developed any psychic abilities?

And then also has it, has your spirituality or religious, have you changed your spirituality or religion since the event? And this, that's, so those questions are kind of at the core of my research. And they're at the, at the, just a tiny little sliver at, in the, in the, in the mainstream UFO witness. I would love to talk to those guys that saw the stuff. off the aircraft carrier and, you know, off the California coast and say, like, have you had any, like, any psychic abilities? What's going on? Weird synchronicities? Like, why do they ask, why do these nuts and bolts type researchers ask them about psychic, psychic experiences? Because you don't have

because that can kind of weed people out, be like, oh, this person's a psychic believer. This person's, we can dismiss them now. I think it's just the opposite. I think what they're seeing is a pattern. You talk to these people and they'll still, they want to tuck your ear off. Someone's taking them seriously. A UFO researcher comes to your house and tells you, you, you know, You're allowed to tell your story without being ridiculed, right? So they'll say, like, and all this weird stuff has happened since my sighting. I've had psychic experiences. So these are, this is what's common.

After a sighting, this isn't aliens in the house. This is just seeing a UFO off in the distance. Your psychic ability increases? I'm generalizing greatly. It doesn't, obviously doesn't happen 100% of the time, but this is a consistently reported stuff. Your psychic abilities increase. Your spirituality will change. And you will often be plagued with synchronicities,

like meaningful coincidences, and then poltergeist activity in the house. So how are like little aliens in a metal spaceship making poltergeist activity in the house happen? You know, something else is going on that takes it out of the realm of, you know, aliens from another galaxy visiting us on their metal spaceship and puts it more into the realm of these myth makers,

this ancient lord. of something from that other realm interacting with us. What do you think it is? Why do you think that people who have these UFO experiences who have witnessed, who believe they have witnessed UFOs? What do you think it is that keeps them having these experiences or different kinds of experiences?

Do you think it sort of just like opens up something in their mind where now they're just always looking for weird shit? Possibly. Yeah, so possibly that's one of the problems with the UFO community is because once you've seen this stuff and once you've seen the weird shit, like you're open to everything. And like, let me tell you, like, you're, it's like,

you've got to be careful how open that door gets because there's a lot of people within the UFO community who are primed to, like, believe in conspiracy stuff. And some of the nuttier, like, fringier stuff that, like, I'm looking for conspiracies. I'm looking for the weird stuff. And I have to be really careful not to get dragged down these blind alleys. So, yeah, it turns, people can get very vulnerable

after these events, you know, to cult leaders, to, to, um, like losing their critical thought. Right. And I have done my very best to, like, I try to present myself as a credible person telling an incredible story. Or telling someone else, oftentimes other people's stories. So I feel like I'm hopefully remain credible in the way I present the stuff, but I am presenting things that are incredible and oftentimes beyond belief. Now, your question was, you know, why are they open to the psychic phenomenon?

or well the the psychic question regarding the UFO researchers talking to these people asking about psychic abilities or psychic phenomenon

to me that kind of my first reaction to hearing that is like okay let's see if this person believes in psychics let's see if they believe

they have psychic abilities or let's that that could be on par with saying okay when's the last time you saw Bigfoot yeah you know okay

now we can just dismiss this fucker because he just you know he just believes that he's some chosen UFO abductee and he's going to believe in every conspiracy that we put in front of him. I think it came the other way around.

I don't think they're trying to weed people out. I think it's a legitimate question because what happens is you talk to these people, the witnesses, and they will say this weird thing happened. Like my psychic, like my psychic abilities, like I feel like I have become,

I now have ESP since seeing the UFO. Oftentimes people don't know. how to control it and it's just fleeting little things that have to give me an example of some sort of psychic ability like this um what would you consider psychic a psychic ability okay so here's a story this woman this has an owl in it there's a woman her name is maria wheatley she's a crop circle researcher in uh england and she was with a friend and they were going to go hike up to the top of a hilltop the hilltop is called oliver's castle sometimes the hilltops are called castle that's what they call the hills there so she uh uh is going to walk

up to the hilltop and there's a path, excuse me, there's a path in the woods that goes to the tailtop. And as they walk down the path, this owl, a white barn owl flies right in front of them and both get the exact same sensation, the exact same feeling. They say, oh, we're not allowed in the woods.

Like, it's barring our way. So they turned around, and then they walked up a different way, you know, through the meadows and stuff like that, but not up through the forest and the trails. They get to the top of the hill, and they look off in the distance, and there's this orange floating orb out in the distance.

And like, what is that thing? And then it gets closer and it grows big and it grows into this big size of a giant cigar and it's coming towards them. And then it shrinks and disappears. So they don't see a metal spaceship. They see this orange disruption of light. So they run back to their car. She said he was shaking so hard. He couldn't get his car keys in the car door.

And afterwards, now beyond just doing the Cropsock-Rexecal research, Maria Wheatley also does Turo. reading where she'll, you know, read divination with a tarot deck. She said her ability to do tarot readings increased exponentially. She said it got really high and then it tapered down a little bit, but she is now, she feels she is much more mystically in tune with doing tarot readings than she was before seeing the orange orb in the sky. The guy claims to have gone to the bar, to the pub, and he could read everyone's mind.

in the bar. You could see what everyone was thinking, and it freaked him out. It was not a good thing. Like, he freaked out, and that eventually eased off. And so, this, if you ask the questions,

these are the stories that emerge from these kind of accounts, these mystical, strange stuff. My problem with the whole psychic thing in the tarot cards is that my experience with these psychic type people is that most of them, at least in my experience,

they're full of shit. and they're hustlers. Some of them are, absolutely. And whenever I hear that kind of stuff, I kind of sort of, it just inclines me to dismiss whatever is going on around it. Because they're, for the most part, you know, you'll get probing questions or those sort of guess about things

based on your appearance or your life or whatever, and they'll keep going that, going down that way by sending probing questions. Don't you get, I mean, don't you ever get the sense that some of these people that are reaching out to you, they just, they're familiar with your research, they're familiar with your story. So they know if they come up with something that's similar to what your, to what your expertise is and what you've been studying for 15 years, that, you know, it's kind of like the same thing.

They're just kind of trying to mirror your story or trying to come up with, there's no, there's no real hard proof of any of this stuff. It's just hearsay, right? Well, there's multiple witness cases. Right. So two people see something at the same time. both people have to be lying in those situations. Right, but when it comes to psychic abilities,

you can't really prove. Sure, you can test those. Oh, yeah, you can prove those. How could you prove that? Do you just do a laboratory experiment? Talk to Dean Radin. There's a researcher out of California, Dean Radin. He's written a bunch of books.

He worked for Bell Labs, I think, and he worked on some of the SRI, which is the remote viewing that the government did. I think he was slightly involved with that. Yeah, so you can study that. It's not 100%, it's difficult to study, but you can, there's a, there's a, you can get results through scientific measures. It's totally ignored within the sciences, except the people that are doing these are coming up with consistent results. What did he find out about SRI?

I can't remember what the acronym is. He was involved with, there's a, he's involved with an organization called ions, which is Institute for Noetic Sciences, which is was broke away, I think, from SRI. And that was started by the astronaut Edgar Mitchell, who was one of the fellows who walked on the moon. And when he came back from the moon, his job was to land the craft on the moon. And so after he did that, and they're flying home, his job was done.

So he didn't have to do anything. So all that he could do is just look out the window. You're like looking out the window for a week and you're out in space. And he said he had what amounted to a mystical experience. He's a physicist from MIT and he had this magical, mystical,

blissful experience like looking out into the heavens, which makes sense, right? Of course. You're riding through outer space. Yeah, yeah. So he came back and he said, like, you know,

he talked to some people and said, look this up. I had this mystical experience. He tried to describe it, and these people came back and said, it's called it, the closest thing we can find

is called a Samadhi experience, which is a feeling of oneness with the magic of all. I'm paraphrasing that poorly. And he said, oh, okay, well, that's, that's what what um that's what um that's what i had so that's what i'll call it and so he started this

organization that studies that and dean raden is involved in that organization hmm so i'm i'm not a scientist so i'm i'm i'm a journalist more than a scientist right so i'm not trying to prove or disprove anything i'm trying to to to collect enough stories to to back up my the hypothesis that was in a way thrust into my lap. Out of all these stories, these owl stories, these UFO stories, how many of them have like video or photos of these things happening? Like photos of a craft or a light or a being or a giant owl? So you mentioned like four foot tall owls. Okay, I got no pictures of four foot tall owls. Okay. So the, so I got a lot of pictures of owls. People send me pictures of owls all the time.

right so the close-up owl like people say I've had UFO contact an owl landed on my back porch here's the picture it's an owl it looks like an owl on the back porch the stories what more important is more more important to me people will say like I was called to get my camera and go outside and take a picture in the dark of the roof and they do and there's an owl in the picture so you know I'm cataloging those kinds of stories and I'm trying not to weight them too much right because some of them are pretty like loose you know But at the same time, you see a pattern, you see that same story emerging. Now, your question was, like, so I don't have any. You know what, I do have, I have an audio.

There's a woman, her name is Lindy Tucker, and she saw a flying craft, a flying saucer in her yard in Canada, Orton, Ontario. And this would have been the 1970s. And she had a audio recording. She recorded the audio of this craft, and the craft made this beeping noise. The craft doesn't sound like anything. It sounds like beep, beep, beep, beep, not that interesting, right? But along with that noise, there's a hooting of an owl in the background. So, like, for me, that was like gold for a little, like, oh, my God, there's an owl and a UFO.

Now, what has since happened is she has collected other people who have recorded UFOs. And they make this beep, beep, beep, beep. beep noise. Now, that was, there was a point in the 70s when that noise was kind of being reported. That has tapered off. Not many people are reporting that steady beeping noise anymore. But she collected, I can't remember what this, multiple audio recordings of flying saucers, and they all made this completely, it sounds like a truck backing up. It's not that interesting. But given the witness testimony, taking that into account, if it's to be believed, and nobody is.

I mean, yes, there's certainly people out there hoaxing. There's certainly people out there stretching the truth. But I'm looking for the pattern in the overall stories. Yeah, it's just like, it's hard. It's hard to create a pattern when everyone's aware of all of the information that you're getting because you're publishing it all, right? So all of it, but yeah. Not all of it, right?

So the people that are sending you these stories, they're able to go and read through all your blog posts about 100. I mean, how many stories have you published on your blog post about owls and UFOs? Many hundreds, yeah. So they have access to these. So it's kind of like. But it's like, yeah, I don't know. I see where you're going with this.

But my sense strongly is that people are contacting me for another reason. They're contacting me. So like, you have a conversation with someone. They're like, I need to talk to you. Like I had this experience. Like, I'm playing the role of a therapist. I'm not a therapist, but I'm playing the role of it because these people are freaked out.

Okay? So they're not looking for any fame. They're not looking for any money. They want to be, they want to have a pseudonym if they're ever, if I document this stuff in a book. These people are not at peace. This is, they are freaked out by their experiences. They're asking me for help. They're saying, like, have you ever heard of anything like this happening? I'm like, yeah, that's actually what you've described is very common. So, so I'm, I'm not looking for proof in a way.

I'm hoping to offer some solace to the people who are having these experiences. Now, you talk to, you talk about a psychic who you talked to. Her name was Anya Briggs. Yes. Can you explain who Anya Briggs is and explain what your experience was with her? Which experience you have? There's something about gray aliens she saw, or she saw aliens dancing around you or something like that.

In your book, you talked about, she said, she could see aliens around you when she was looking at you. Oh, okay, yeah. So she's psychic. This is something, like, I don't take this as concrete proof

that there's aliens. She said, I don't think she, did she say dancing? She may have. I don't know if it was dancing, but she said she saw them around you. Okay, yeah.

So she, this has happened to me more than once where I've talked to people who, so in these waters, like I end up bumping into, I did one radio interview in the guy. I said, well, you know, you talk to a shaman,

and they'll tell stories about owls. and they're like, shaman, who talks to a shaman? I'm like, you write a book about owls. Shaman's come and find you. You'll start talking to shamans. So I'm like, because of the book and because of the researcher, I'm interacting, I'm talking with people who are psychic, who claim to be psychic.

And one of the things that I've had more than one person say, they kind of look at me and they've actually, I've had one person kind of look over my shoulder and kind of go like, there's, I say, like, alien energy around you, great alien energy. Now, I don't see it. I don't sense it, but that's the kind of feedback I'm getting. I don't wait that too much, but I am curious of the patterns.

I'm interested, why is it always gray alien energy? It's not. It's not. What is the gray? Like, what is the difference between, like, are there any other color aliens? Are they all gray? No, so if you look, so this is coming from a wealth of research. Okay.

So about, and I'm making these numbers up, but let's say, of the pool of data, you got 100 UFO reports. where people interact with the beings, 50% or so will be gray aliens. The typical gray aliens that showed up on the X-Files that come out of the mothership at the end of... Skinny humanoids, big heads, bald heads, big black eyes, big penetrating black eyes,

spindly long fingers, about three and a half to four feet tall. After that, people will report... Humans, total humans, except tall, and sometimes reported as being like seven foot tall and beautiful, like superheroes, basically. And reptilians, like giant reptiles, which is not uncommon in the research. I'm only saying what's reported, so I haven't seen any of these things.

And then giant praying mantises. And then there's a bunch of other things like robots or light beings or balls of light and things like that. So, yeah, it's the data that's out there, And it's, it's, there's a lot of it. There's a wealth of data. Like people, serious researchers are collecting this data. And the problem is like how do you, someone says, you know, I saw a giant praying mantis. How do you, how do you like, I mean, just, I mean, yes, it's an, it's an incredible story.

It's a story beyond belief. But you hear that story a hundred times and, and you have to take it seriously. Have you heard of the story? I'm sure you have. The Zimbabwe, UFO. encounter where the beings came out of the ship and talked to the little kids. Yep. Have you talked to any of those people?

I have interacted through messaging and emails with a woman named Emily Trim, and she is one of the little girls. She was a, that there's a documentary, or there's some footage that was done by a documentary film crew at the time with Dr. John Mack. Now, Dr. John Mack, who went down there, was the chair of the psychiatry department. He was a doctor of psychiatry for Harvard. So he's a credible researcher. So he went to Zimbabwe to talk to these kids. And the kids weren't, they hadn't read any literature,

they weren't opened and predisposed to or weren't influenced by, you know, science fiction movies and things like that, rural place in Zimbabwe in the early 1990s or mid-1990s. So, yeah, so those kids were reporting. One of the things that they were reporting, was telepathic communication. The beings were talking to them. Their mouths didn't move.

They were hearing the voices in their head. That is consistent near 100%. And the message that they were getting was technology is bad. Technology is going to destroy you. Something to that effect. I think it's a little more nuanced than that. And this is a message that has kind of been boiled down from other reports too. It's that your technology has surpassed your spirituality.

and you are in a dangerous place that you are, that you are, like, you are incapable of dealing with the technology. You're in a dangerous place and you could ruin life on earth. Your technology has surpassed your spirituality. So if you were spiritual, if we were like enlightened beings, let's say, right? So like if the Buddha was all of a sudden given, you know, free reign to run, you know, Google, I'm sure he would make very different decisions than the bottom line of the, you know, what the stockholders would want at the end of each year.

So he would make decisions, you know, so, you know, we've got nuclear bombs, we've got poison gas, we've got all this horrible stuff, and we are a species. Territorial, territorial apes with thermonuclear weapons. Exactly, yeah. So we're, if you don't need to, like you can just look at the headlines in the newspaper and realize like we're quite capable of wreaking terrible havoc on this planet.

Have you heard Robert Hastings book, UFO and nukes? Yep. That's pretty incredible. Those pretty incredible accounts of the officers that work on those nuclear bases that all see UFOs hovering around the missile silos. Yes. Yes. Okay. I'm prepared to go deep with this.

Robert Hastings has come forward. And he wrote that book in the, I guess it would have come out about 2009 or so. That UFOs in Nuke's book. And he made a big splash. He did all kinds of press conferences. There's wonderful footage, very, very credible witnesses telling these stories

in a very stoic, dry manner. Robert Hastings has recently come forward, and he's a UFO abductee. The guy in the Minot missile base, the guy with his finger on the key, that could have turned the thing when the, when this was in this 60. Which missile base is this? Minot. I think this is Minot in Missouri. Missouri.

Excuse me. Montana. He has also, one of the fellows that was in the, he's written his own book, I want to say his name is Robert Salas. Robert Salas, with an S at the end. And he has written his own book where he has come forward with his own UFO contact experiences. So there's the guy with his finger on the button

says, I've had UFO contact. He's an old man now. He's like come forward with it grudgingly, but basically he felt he had to. Robert Hastings, the author of the book UFOs and nukes. Very credible research, very grounded. Not like me at all. Very nuts and bolts.

He has come forward with UFO contact. When did he come forward with that information? It came out about two years ago, and I can't remember the name of the book. It would be right there on Amazon. Him and another fellow both came forward in their books. One fellow worked at Mufon, and he talked about his UFO contact experience. Another very dry UFO researcher. What did Robert Hastings have to say?

How did he come to the conclusion that he was an abductee? I haven't read the book, so I'm going to be very cautious on that. Okay. out of all the people that you've talked to who claim, what is the difference between somebody who is that you assume or you claim to be an abductee or someone who has been contacted? Don't you indicate a difference between someone who you consider an abductee and someone who has just been contacted or is just come in contact with the UFO?

So within the community, some people don't like the term abductee. It implies that like it's a crime. You abduct someone, that's a crime, right? But people are taken against their will, oftentimes taken on board a craft, if these stories are beat to believe. And those people will consider those symptoms. They're traumatized.

Other people go along willingly. And that, you know, I've talked to people. One woman I know driving through Canada, all kinds of weird experiences as she's driving, of flying saucers land in the road. Everyone in the car is suddenly asleep. She's like the only person awake in the car and these human-looking beings

say, come on the craft with us. And she goes on board the craft. And it changed her life. She changed her spirituality and she changed her psychic stuff. So the people who go along willingly, let's say, those people are in the literature referred to as experiencers.

And that was a term that was coined, I don't necessarily think he coined it, but he certainly brought it to the forefront. That's the term that the Harvard professor, Dr. John Mack used, was Experiencer to describe these people. And, excuse me, not experiencer, contactee. Okay. Excuse me, the people go along willingly are contactees. The people who feel that they've been taken against their will often go by the term abductee.

and the people in the middle, sort of a more a broad spectrum that covers both ends, are considered experiencers. Sorry, I got ahead of myself there. Okay. Dr. John Mack, he's the same guy who interviewed the kids in Zimbabwe, right? Yep. And those kids would be considered contactees? Well, they didn't get taken if we're, well, actually, depending on what people share,

that's hard to say. I would say experienceer would probably be the better word, because I don't actually know the stories. like 60 kids. I don't know each individual story. There was only a couple that got close within like a couple feet of of the beings they claimed. Yeah.

And those kids were frightened and traumatized. Right. Now did any of those kids? You said you talked to, who did you talk to? A woman named Emily Trim. She's an adult now and she's

doing artwork. She lives in Canada now. And but she sees it as something very traumatic. She felt it was very disruptive to her life. Now, has her life since then been filled with any sort of strange coincidences or synchronicities or any strange owl encounters? I want to be very careful what I say because I haven't talked to her specifically about that.

Okay. So, but I know she, she does a lot of artwork and she credits her creativity to some degree to the, to the contact experience. Okay. Now, so you're, what you claim in your book, what is the reason for, in your view, what is the reason for these owls showing up in connection with UFOs? Like, what is the, what is the connection between the owls and these tiny scientists in these UFO saucers? They, so they might not be tiny scientists in the saucers. They might be doing some other role, but they're, they're, uh, the connection.

Okay. So there's a term archetype, which means that somehow within our, like Plato originally is the archetype and then the term archetype, and then Freud, excuse me, then Carl Jung, used the term archetype in more modern research.

And they both are implying that there's a, something in the human psyche, the collective consciousness that we have an embedded knowing about certain things. Like, for instance, Luke Skywalker is the archetype of the hero, right? So you go to see Star Wars, you watch a movie with, you know, Luke Skywalker flying his, you know, his fighter spacecraft and with his lightsaber and everything like that. You're seeing a movie, an adventure movie, but underneath it all, you are seeing the archetype of the hero.

Right. So, and we know that we can tap into that. And I would argue that we can tap into the archetype of the owl. Like I talk to a lot of people who see owls. And they, almost no one says, oh, I saw an owl. People will come to you and say, like, I saw this owl. It might have nothing at all. It might have been on a fence.

And they said, it was so powerful. Like, it was so striking to see an owl up close. So along with that. Well, culturally, they're just tied with, like, spooky spookiness or horror and that goes right into the Bible there's parts where owls are mentioned in the Bible

and it sounds just like if it was like a spooky movie they show up in places where they are like a set piece when within the Bible they're talking about like the wasteland the barren the desert you know this these lonely spooky places

and they'll say there were owls there so that's exactly right that has been within our psyche for forever so but if there is a deeper meaning now I'm going way out on a limb with these ideas here but if there's a deeper meaning within the owl that we can tap into subconsciously and they arrive at the moment of UFO contact

so here's this is totally what's normal is I get stories like this all the time walking through the woods I looked up I saw an owl the next thing I knew a flying saucer passes right over me that's very common so the owl they're seen a real owl and it is showing up in the context of a UFO context or a UFO sighting. So is it a punctuation mark? Is it like an exclamation point within the narrative of their reality? Does that make sense?

Like if the owl is showing up for some reason, if only so the person pays attention more. So you ask like why owls? The simplest thing I could say why owls is to pay attention. It's like a symbol to pay attention. Another thing I say, it's an alarm clock. It's like it's a ringing bell, like forcing you to pay attention, forcing you to wake up. So what does that have to do with if it's a real owl versus, I mean, how could it not be a real owl? Okay.

So you're, so you were a little bit ago, you asked about the four foot tall owls. Right. So here's, this is, there's two avenues of, of this. of the owl sighting. One avenue is a real owl. And what is very commonly reported, and I get this a lot, is here I'll tell a little stories.

Guy at a UFO conference, people in a group, they sit in a circle like an alcoholic synonymous meeting. And they talk about, like they talk about like, you know, hello, my name is Joe, and I think I've been abducted by aliens. It's basically the vibe of it.

Want some coffee? Yeah, just a little bit at the bottom of it. Great. It's strong. Good. So, perfect. and then so they

you know they tell their stories they tell their experiences and I was in this once and this was at a UFO conference where there's a big like people go to UFO conferences and people who have had the contact experiences will show up at the conference

and then they will often have a support group meeting at night's closed to reporters and things like that so there's the guy sitting off in the corner the whole time and he's kind of like this the whole time and he at the end of the meeting, he kind of raises his hand.

So listen, I have to ask people in the room, has anyone here ever had any odd experiences with owls? And this guy almost fell out of his chair when everyone rose their hand, including me. And he was just like, so he told his story. So this is the story that shows up a lot. He's driving down the road at night, and he sees this big owl on the side of the road.

It's like four foot tall. And he goes right up to it. It rolls his window down. He looks right at it's right next to his driver's side window and he looks at this big four-foot-tall owl, and he gets a really bad feeling, and he drives home. Later, he's a photographer.

Later, he goes into the woods, and he knows there's an owl's nest in a tree, so he's taking pictures of this owl, and he's looking at the owls, and he says, I don't think that was an owl I saw on the side of the road. So he went through hypnotic regression to try to figure out what he actually saw. And he said that

nothing really emerged in the hypnosis session, except that he has a vague memory of the owl wearing boots. Okay, so there's nothing proof here. But what is commonly reported is this tall, four-foot-tall owl and... Commonly reported? Commonly reported. What is that? Can you give me numbers?

What is common? I wish I knew. What percentage of your stories are four-foot-tall owls? 25%. Wow. Maybe 50%. Less than 50 more than 25, somewhere in there. Okay.

So here's another story. So with the implication is that the gray alien is using some sort of psychic impression to distort the observer's mind. This is so common in the literature. And so there's a, and I've heard it many times, you listen to the hypnosis transcripts or the hypnosis recordings, where someone will say like, oh, I saw four-foot-to-all in the road, and then the hypnotherapist describe the owl. Well, it's bald. It's got big black eyes.

It's skinny. It's wearing a shiny uniform. It's got long fingers, and I don't think that's an owl. It's very commonly reported that at the end of a UFO contact experience, the beings, oftentimes the gray aliens, will kind of say, you will remember us as owls. Now, it's not just, so this is, in the literature, sure this is called a screen memory.

So there's a screen somehow that they use either technology or psychic means to distort what the witness is seeing. Now it's not just owls, it's deer. Owls and deer are at the top of the list. People see deer under odd circumstances. And then after that it's cats, raccoons, squirrels, clowns is very commonly reported. Jesus gets reported every once in a while as far as showing up as a screen memory. So somehow are they like, how are they tapping into the mind of the observer?

I cannot even begin to imagine if it's technology or psychic means. So here's another story that is on the screen memory aspect. There's a woman I know. I know her well. I trust her. She was working at a girl's school for kids. She was like 19 years old, a summer camp. And there was like buildings.

and she walked from one building to the other, and she had to kind of walk through a trail. So she wasn't, like, deep in the woods or anything. She was just, like, between two buildings. And she could hear kids, the girl's playing in the background. And she turns a corner, and there's a gray alien standing by the side of the trail. And she looks at the gray alien, and it looks at her,

and she hears this, like, sort of echoing, reverberating voice in her head that says, owl, owl, owl, owl. And she watches this being turn into an owl, like morph into an owl, turn around and run into the woods. So I got a couple stories like that One with deer So I'm just saying All I can do is report what people tell me

Right So but you hear You hear your 500th story Of someone's seen a four foot tall owl On the side of the road while driving at night Yeah, it's got to drive you crazy, right? Well, I mean so so there's two avenues of research One is the screen memory

Right? So if you take that Like okay so I don't want to say it's solved right So, like, so, there's no four foot tall owls. Like, a two and a half foot tall owl is about as big as they're going to get any owl in the world. And that's a big owl, two and a half foot tall. Three foot tall owl is you're right on the line of like, maybe, but four foot tall, no way. And so, I mean, this is what people, the people talk about driving up to an owl and it's standing in the road, it's looking over the roof of their truck. It doesn't make sense, too.

like if you're an alien from another dimension or from another galaxy, why would you just be standing in the middle of a fucking road? Okay, so let's think about this. So if you are an alien from some of the realm and you want to abduct someone

and if you show up as an alien standing in the middle of the road, they're going to freak out. Right? So if you show up as something familiar that wouldn't be that unusual, an owl, then okay, oh, there's an owl on the side of the road. you know so a deer on the side of the word it's a little murky when Jesus shows up but so but but so they are so the implication is they are using an animal that wouldn't be unusual to see and that um and that that that they are using some sort of screen memory some sort of induced hypnosis let's say to get into the mind of the observer and and mess with it in a way that makes them think they're seeing an owl when in fact it's a gray alien standing in front of them. Now once, like I get, I cover that very early on in my first book, the screen memory aspect.

And then I, I'm much more interested in the people who are seeing real owls. I think that's much more fascinating to me. It's much more mysterious to me. And it's, I feel like it taints your research when you go to a UFO conference and start asking people about owls because everyone's going to want to talk about, yeah, it's connected to aliens or whatever. I feel like if you go outside of people who are interested in UFO, just regular people and ask them about owls.

Have you ever done that? Just like casually asking people if they have had any odd experience with owls. Oh, yeah, all the time. Really? Yeah. And owls are such weird, weird animals. Like, have you seen, I'm sure you've seen the videos of people on YouTube who have them as pets. And they just like, they like hang out with them.

They like pet them and they like, they like chew on their finger a little bit. So very, very, just like, it's mind bending the way they move. Ooh, and their aura that they have. Absolutely. There was a hilarious YouTube comment on a video. Somebody said owls, their animals, they have bird hardware with cat software. Yeah, yeah. So unlike other birds, most birds are sort of twitchy and nervous looking.

Owls are not because so human, excuse me. They're not scared. They're not twitchy and kind of like jittery like normal. birds are, like even a parakeet or a parrot or something or a, or a seagull. They're just, they're, what's crazy about owls is that they're, they're, like, one of the top predatory birds there are, like, like owls kill hawks. Yeah. So, owls have specialized eyes to see in the dark, obviously.

They hunt in the dark, they fly in the dark, they can fly through the forest in almost complete darkness, right? they because of that their eyes are really big their eyes collectively are bigger than their brains and then they also their eyes are not shaped like a um they're shaped more like a tube rather than a circle so we have circular eyeballs they're a ball so we can look back and forth owls can't do that their eyes are locked straight ahead they cannot turn their eyes side to side like any other bird could right and because their eyes eyes are locked forward that's why they really weird robotic head motion.

Because they use that. So an owl, and they also have very good, they have wonderful night vision. They also have very, very good hearing. So they can fly at night in the forest, through the trees, near complete darkness. And they can listen. Their feathers are specially designed,

so they're very quiet. And they, so they don't make any noise when they fly. So they can look down and hear. the sound of a mouse on the ground while in flight. And that's how they hunt. Right. Are there any other birds or animals that have eyes like that that are long and locked in place?

I can't answer that. I don't think there are any other birds. I think it's only the owls that have the night vision hardware. That's wild. So, and so they, yeah, so owls are, so they, so they, um, they did some scientific testing. They put in, they had a totally dark, they took a barn, they made it totally light tight,

zero available light, and then they could control the amount of light. So they put light in that would be, to our eyes, undetectable, like lower than we could see. And then they put an owl up in the rafter, and then they have, they let mice go in the, in the bottom of the barn. And they said they had better results when they put, like, forest duff on the ground. So the mice were, like, walking on, making the little crunchy noise,

like as if they were walking across leaves and grass and stuff. So they'd let a mouse go and the owl in almost near darkness would get the mouse 100% of the time. When they turned it to total darkness, the owl only using its ears, can't see anything, would get the mouse 75% of the time. That's roughly the data. Wow. So they are, you don't stand much of a chance of your little mouse in the woods at night. Do you think the owls have the ability to see into like another dimension. Isn't that the question? I have no idea. I would love

that to, I would, that's a great avenue of speculation and I had fun speculating about that in the book. Like, it's, I have no idea, but isn't that, so that if they can see into another dimension that answers why they show up in haunted house movies. That answers why they show up in ghost stories, right? Ghosts come from another dimension. Well, if any animal

could see into another dimension, it would be an owl, right, because they have the moat, the, most advanced visual sense and auditory sense than probably any other animal, right? Any other vertebrae. And their eyes are so enormous and they can see in virtually pitch black. If any animal could see into another realm, it would be an owl. Yes. So, yes, so that's my avenue of thought.

I would love for that. That would explain so much, right? So can the owl, like, see through time? Does it know? like that the UFO is approaching, why do I'll show up before a UFO then, right? If that's given that logic, maybe there's like some, like,

the UFO gives off gamma rays and the owl can see it, and the owls are curious, and they're just like, wow, what's that thing over in the other side of the forest? I'm going to fly over and look at it, right? They're seeing something emanating from the UFO, the same way that, like,

we can't hear a dog whistle, but the dog can, and the dog can respond to it. Maybe the flying saucers, like a giant dog whistle to the owls. Right. But why do they show up before the UFO? Yeah. It's tough. It's tough.

I mean, I want it. It's a fun, it's a fun avenue of speculation. Do you think there, do you think it could be a possibility that there, the owls are trying to warn us about something? Or do you think it's sort of like the out, the, the, the, whatever the beings are, are kind of tapping into the owls and trying to like, make sure the coast is clear and make sure there's not going to be any witnesses or something like that? if that's the case, then the owl is absolutely the perfect animal to do that, right? Because they can see in the dark. And if you're like, you know, if they, if the, so that implies that they, that the aliens somehow can read the mind of the owl, right? So the owl flies into the location.

They scope it out. They say, okay, you know, there's, there's no other witnesses here. There's nobody else on the street. Everyone else is in bed. I can hear that it's quiet. If there was someone in the house walking around, the owl would be able to hear it. If the owl is sitting on a tree branch near the house, it's not going to cause any, you know,

it's not that interesting if someone sees that or notices that at night. If there's a gray alien standing in the yard, listening to the house, if a witness saw that, if a neighbor saw that, it might be pretty strange. So, yes, so there's a way to think about that. But given that model, the UFO occupants would have to tap into the mind of the owl somehow.

To like, or do they abduct the owl and put a little sensor in it, just like, you know, like we would do it in a drone, you know, like a little video camera in the, in the owl. It doesn't seem too far-fetched that they could, they could tap into the vision of an owl or tap in, to the mind of an owl just to use it as kind of like a surveillance, surveillance cameras, a little. It'd be the perfect surveillance camera. Yeah, I speculate about that in the book and I, and I'm cautious because I, I get dead ended anytime I go down that road. It's like, why would they do that? Why is it happening so often? What's really going on? So here's the question. So the overlap between owls and death, right?

So people, it is very common for people to report owls either most often after someone dies. And I've got so many accounts like this. Can I tell a personal story? This is like, happened to me. Yeah. Okay. So this is like, I'm the witness. I'm right here.

So my mother was very ill. this is going back to 2013, and she was, her health was failing. And I was called to, she was living in North Carolina near my sister. My sister was helping take care of her. And I got a call and said, Mike, mom's unconscious, they don't expect her to regain her consciousness. So I flew to North Carolina and I was sitting by my mother's bedside when she died. It was a really powerful experience that happened at like three in the morning. My sister and I were up all night.

with my mom, and we were right there when she gave her last breath. It was a terribly moving experience for my sister and I. And it was one that, like, is, like, it's happened all throughout mankind's history, like children at the parents' bedside when they pass. So the next day, like it was 3 o'clock in the morning when this happened, we had all of these issues. We had funeral arrangements and people to call and stuff. So we were all of us were, like, trying to sleep.

at the same time trying to get stuff done. So that night, I met my sister's house. My brother was there, too. He wasn't at the bedside when my mom passed, but he was there shortly after we called him. We're sitting in the backyard of my sister's house. She's got like a couch in the back porch, and her next door neighbor,

excuse me, the woman who lives across the street, Ruthie was right there. And she's a real person. You can call her. She's like, she's as powerful a witness as any person could be. this story doesn't have anything to do with UFOs, but it has everything to do with the mystique of the owl. So,

Ruthie sits across from my sister and I, my sister brother and I, I'm in the middle on the couch, and they're right and left of me. And they both were very familiar with my owl research. They didn't know what to make of it. And Ruthie says, you know, to me and my brother and sisters,

my Jim, Gene, Mike, I know there's an afterlife. And I know, because of an experience I had with an owl. And when she said owl, both my sister and brother laid gave me this look like, did you put her up to this? What's going on? Like they looked at me. Like, what's going on here? Did you do? And I was like, she looked at my brother and sister. And I had this, Ruthie, Ruthie, like, you don't know what's going on, but I've been doing research about owls,

mystical stuff with owls, often surrounding death. I want to hear your story. So she says, when her father died, she was grieving. And there's this nature trail that snake around the neighborhood they live in. So she would walk that nature trail every day, trying to process her grieving. And every day she would pass this owl. And then one day she was passing the owl, and the owl hooted at her.

And she said, I looked at the owl, and she said, are you my daddy? And at that moment, all her grieving ended. And the owl flew off, and she hasn't seen it since. and she said, I know. In my heart, I know there is an afterlife. My father came back in the form of an owl to help me understand that

and to alleviate my grieving. I have that story. That happened to me, and I have that story so many times in the research where people will say, like, often a child will see an owl after one of their parents has passed, and they will talk to the owl as if it is their parent.

That is normal. And I'm suspecting it's been normal all throughout human history. I'm certain people stepped out of the cave after their father died and saw an owl and talked to the owl as if it was their dead father. I'm not saying it is. I'm not saying it is, but I'm saying that within the human experience, we tap into that.

Well, this ties back to the whole phenomenon of the synchronities, right? Like when you dedicate so much focus to one thing, it appears everywhere. Absolutely. Just like the 11-11. Or like in my experience, there's a crazy story that I, that happened. It's a crazy thing that happened to me a long time ago. I won't tell the details. All the details, I would bore you with it.

But it's, there was this girl that we found swimming in the ocean in, off the Cayman Islands, random girl, we were diving in a boat, no boats around us anywhere. and some girl was swimming in a dress, got and was in our boat when we came up from scuba diving. And she was like fucked up on some sort of drugs. We don't know what it was. She was like on mushrooms or something. And she had 242 tattooed on her ankle.

And me and my buddy who were diving together, we both noticed her tattoo. And now we see 242 everywhere we go, right? It's like a synchronicity. It's just like because we have that crazy experience that we were both there, We both noticed her tattoo. Now me and him, I mean, almost weekly, we'll text each other these crazy things

where we'll get a receipt that's 242 or we got some crazy call that was at 242. I feel like this happens with so many things. People that think who have had one experience with a flying saucer or a UFO, now they're always looking in the sky for this stuff. Now, like people who have never had these experiences, they don't most people aren't looking into the sky most people are are focusing ahead they're

staring at their phones or they're driving down the street or they're staring at a computer screen they don't have time to they're they're too involved in the the rat race of life they're not looking at the sky trying to find meaning in something but people who have had one experience that kind of jolts them out of reality now they're kind of like open to more of these, anything that resembles that happening again. That's me. Right, that's you. Right. Exactly. And that's a, it seems to be the same thing with a lot of people who have these UFO experiences. Absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, it's funny. You go to a UFO conference. You can actually,

this is, I use that as an example. That's the great way to, like, you get a bunch of people in the same room together. All of them are enthusiasts. And I would argue that many of them have had contact and are embarrassed to say it oftentimes. So what happens at a UFO conference? You get someone at the bar. And you get a few glasses of wine in them and like, oh, well, what's going on? You know, like, oftentimes the really stoic dry researcher will say, like, oh, you know what, I had this experience. And then they'll tell, like, the experience that sounds like missing time. And so.

That's so much fun to talk about, too. And you were saying, like, going to a UFO conference, aren't you, like, predisposed? Like, meeting people with, and like, yeah, that's why you go there. It's like you go there, like, the plumbers go to the plumbers conference. Right. Talk to other plumbers, you know? So, but the, okay, I got to circle back to where you were. starting me from this.

Oh, being predisposed to this. So you can go to a UFO conference and ask someone, what's your number? And they won't skip a beat and they'll say 10-10. Or they'll say 11-11. Or they'll say 1, 2, 3-3, or they'll say 3-33. I get a lot of grief from that. I, if I, like, I've had some powerful, like some of the most powerful experiences I've had are often punctuated.

I'm looking at your watch right now. What time is it? 1223 okay I was trying to read it upside down I would have like proved myself okay so I tried but so the um

try me in seven minutes well that's cheating it doesn't count so um so yes you're predisposed to like have these number of things but oh as far as my own experience one two three four has shown up a lot

in my in my nuttiness and so it's like you know like the timestamp on a blog post, the, you know, timestamps on, on, uh, clocks and things like that. So that's,

I don't, I'm, this is the way I say it. I say, I'm not going to start a new religion because I saw one, two, three, four,

but I'm going to take note of it. Oftentimes in, in the book, I'll just say, you know, I know that the timestamp was one, two, three,

four and I don't want to, you know, I mean, I recognize how paranoid that sounds. But I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

I mean, you're pulling on these little threads. And sometimes the thinnest little thread will, if you pull on it and find the end of it, it'll have some deeper meaning. Now, you mentioned in your book you spoke to briefly with Jacques Valet about your story and you asked him about the kid. Yeah, so I contacted him.

I said, so after that thing with Kristen, I asked everyone. I asked everyone. I started doing my own. Which one was the first? That was the first experience. sightings in the mountains. Okay. Your first experience.

My first experience with just owls. They were seeing owls. The voice in my head said UFOs, but I was seeing owls. So I was shameless. I was on fire with just like I was reaching out to everyone. I would call, I made reached out to everyone. I found phone numbers that were hard to find. I managed to dig.

So I got a hold of Jacques Filet. I only talked to him through, actually I sent him a paper letter. And he sent me his own address back. Yeah. So, so yeah. So I said, have you had any odd experiences with owls in your research? And he said, I had a story. This was in France.

I think it was in France. Men are driving down the road, two guys in a car, and it's at night. And this owl goes, bloop, and drops right out of the sky and lands in the road in front of him. It's disoriented. It's flopping around. And then they stop the car, and they get out of the car, and there's a flying saucer above. So there, the owl. So that's the only story he has.

So they're a witness to what he calls a close encounter of the third kind. A close-up UFO sighting. So he's speculated, just in this written note, he speculated that something of the alien propulsion system must have disrupted the owl and disoriented it. The owls flopping around on the pavement on the ground, up just above them, is a hovering flying saucer. Wow.

So this is, and I'm, I'm like, like, I, so this is my weakness in a way. Like, I love spooky stories and campfire stories. I, I am drawn to these elusive, open-ended stories that are, that just are saturated with this mystique and eerieness to them. And if you've, I mean, getting as far into the book and my stuff as you've gotten, you've got to recognize that I'm like, like, like, uh, it's like cast a spell on me. So I'm, I am searching out the weirder stories. Right.

So do you know who Bud Hopkins is? Yeah. So I worked with Bud Hopkins. But Hopkins hypnotized me. Really? Yeah. And, and, and, what was that like?

Well, I'll tell you that in a second. So when talking with Bud Hopkins, uh, tell, for people who are listening, explain who Bud Hopkins is. Oh, so Bud Hopkins, but Hopkins was a UFO abduction researcher.

He used the term abduction. He was not shy about using the term abduction. He's a UFO abduction researcher who wrote a series of books between like the early 80s, and I think the last one was in 2011 or so it came out. He was an artist in New York City, and he took on the role of researching UFO abduction and talking to abductees and documenting their experiences in books. At the same time, everyone who worked with him will say he was a thoughtful, sensitive, caring person who was doing two things. He was researching a complicated subject that's beyond belief. At the same time, he was trying to offer solace to the people who have

had these experiences. And he died in August 21st, 2011, which is going to be the 10-year anniversary in about a month now, a little over a month. And I know that date, because my birthday is the next day, August 22nd. So, talking to Bud, I said, do you know how synchronicities in this stuff, like weird stuff that surrounds these experiences? And he kind of goes, oh, yeah, oh, yeah. And he said, like, what do you make of that? And he said, well, like, he kind of made this hand gesture. He said, like, you know, this stuff, this stuff, and he kind of made it, like, like, splashes everywhere.

Like, one event, like, little stuff just goes everywhere. There's all this outlying stuff. And he said, it's my job as an author to try to rein that in and give you my information that way. And I realized years later that, like, I'm the guy looking at those little drops that are like just barely connected to the overall phenomenon. I want to know about the synchronicities. I want to know about the owls.

I want to know about the weird premonitions. I want to know about the psychic stuff. That, you know, the core of it is the UFO contact experience. I want to know about all that outlying experiences. I want to explore that. And it's elusive. All I can do, I don't have any proof. I mean a little bit.

Maybe some two witnesses see the same thing. maybe someone has a picture or recording and things like that. But that analogy of Bud Hopkins, who is a pioneering researcher, he wants to rein it all in. I want to study this stuff at the outline. And that's what these books are, is all the little speckles that surround the core phenomena. So how did he hypnotize you?

What was that? How did you get in touch with him? What made, did you want to get hypnotized? Or was he more interested in hypnotizing you? What brought this about? So he, so I used to live in New York City. So I used to go back and forth to New York City and visit folks a lot and stuff. So he was working in New York City. And at the time I was living there in New York City, I didn't have any interest in this at all. But that was so, I left New York City when I was about 30. And then I was living out west. And then, and then what I was when I was, when I was, when I was, all is out west in Idaho is when I really started to dig into this research and dig into reading the books and started eventually dig into my own experiences and do my own research. But before I was doing my own research, I guess I had started. That was after the

thing with Kristen, the events of seeing the multiple owls, which isn't that interesting of a story, right? We saw some owls while camping, big deal. But it changed the direction of my life. So I sent him a letter. And he replied. And I visited his house and he had, you know, those laundry baskets you get at the dollar store, you know, they're like big plastic laundry baskets. He had, it was just like these files and they were all old, like these old like dividers. And one would say like, you know, close up sighting. One would say, missing time. One would say, you know, lights in the sky. And and, and there was just like, letters and letters and letters. And I'm like, I looked at this big thing. I was like, is that from last year?

he went that's from last month so I've talked to other UFO researchers and I'll ask him like what's the proof in this how do you find the proof in this and I had one lady kind of roll her eyes and go like look at my email inbox you want proof that's the proof like how like I'm flooded I'm like and I'm nobody like I'm right this the owl research is way at the outer edge

and I'm getting stories all the time I'm asking for them and I'm getting him but okay your question was what was it like getting hypnotized by by So I wrote him a letter. He got back to me, and I was going to be in New York, and I went and visited him. And it was a year later that I went back and visited him again, and he said, he was basically like, you know, here, there are stories about the beings in the yard and stuff like that. And he was like, I was considering hypnosis, and I didn't want to do it. So this was your first time being hypnotized?

Yeah. And it didn't, not much happened. You know what did happen? So here, the story I told initially. Did you go into like a No it's very it's very I've been hypnotized I've gone to you know what I did This is funny because this hypnosis in the field

Like I'm on I'm this total inside baseball here You're like you're on the outside and I'm trying to bring you up to speed And like so like the infighting and the snipiness And the bickering and the anger and the The budding heads within the UFO research community is like It's crazy how antagonistic people can be towards each other So within this that field like there are people who hate hate hate hate anything that has to do with hypnosis.

By using hypnosis, you're introducing false data. You're doing... Right, because you're going to implant false memories, right? Exactly. You can make an argument that. And then on the other side, there's people who are like, oh, the only way to access the truth is through hypnosis. And so, like, I'm in the middle somewhere,

which is a better place to be, I think, than to be, like, a true believer, either end of that spectrum. And so I'm super cautious. So... Well, all of the most famous abduction stories, all of the most famous abduction stories, all of the most famous abductions D's like Travis Walt and

Eddie and Barney Hill. They all have been hypnotized right? But Travis Walton, most of his recollection is conscious. In the books that I've written, most of the reports are, like, I'll say, 99% of the reports are done with, there's almost no hypnosis used

in my books a little bit, and they're my own hypnosis that I use in... But he's been, Walt, Travis has been through hypnosis since, like, multiple times to recount his stories, yeah. So, yeah, so, and then if you read Bud's books, there's like this, it seems like 50% of the data emerges through hypnosis. And what I'm finding is I don't really, like, I don't trust hypnosis into that degree where I think it's like,

where it's the truth emerging word for word. I think it's a mess. It gets complicated. For sure. So, but the hypnosis. hypnotherapists will keep certain facts to themselves. You know? What was, how was, I'll, I don't want to give away too much,

but I mean, there's some things I know that I won't share, but simple things. Like, how is the room lit? This is actually someone everyone knows. What, what do you mean things that, what kind of things? Okay, so like, what does a doorknob look like on a flying saucer? Like, what's the insignia on the suit? You know, what's the, you know.

Is this the kind of stuff that you would remember after hypnosis? Under hypnosis, you would say these things. that would be consistent with other reports, an insignia on a suit. You know, what's the doork look like on a flying saucer if you're on board a craft? You know, word for word, the aliens will tell an abductee the same thing. Oftentimes, it's very similar to what they told the kids in Zimbabwe.

You know, I'm paraphrasing roughly, but your spirituality has far advanced, excuse me, your technology is far in advance of your spirituality. you're in a dangerous place as humans on earth. So, you know, hypnosis is like, it's, Bud was, but was very ill at the time he hypnotized me. And I laid, I was on his bed,

and there was a woman in the room videotaping it. Really? And I had a blanket on me at the videotape. It's not that interesting, right? So Bud's like sitting there talking very softly, and I'm like sitting not moving and all talking very softly. It's incredibly boring to watch. There's long, long, long pauses.

How does he get you into the state of hypnosis? It's pretty, so, I mean, it's just a very simple set of commands, basically saying relax, you know, like simple things. Imagine you're going down the stairs. Every step you take, you're in a deeper state. And it doesn't feel that different. It doesn't feel, I feel like, you know, I mean, like you're lying in a bed, you're relaxed, and then he'll ask you a question. You'll say stuff. Like, why did I say that? Like, where did that come from? I'll, I got some stories to, but for Bud, the only thing that came up, he, we, we, every, thing that we covered was exactly the same in my, from my normal memory. From my conscious memory. No new information emerged except for a few little things.

And one of them was the image of the five aliens in the yard. There was a palpable sense, and I talked about it. It was like, it wasn't just, oh, yes, they're here. It was almost like, oh, shit, they're back. It's them again. I had that thought under hypnosis. Here's a question for you. Does that make it true that I've been abducted multiple times by these gray beings?

Just because I had a thought that said, oh, shit, they're back. It's them again. And I remember palpably feeling like, this is so familiar. This is so familiar seeing them out there. Does that make it true? I don't have an answer for that. I could see being vulnerable and wanting it to be true. And I could see being traumatized and saying, no, I reject that.

You know, I'm trying to stay somewhere in the middle. And so I'm saying what I felt. So it doesn't make it true. Do you think this ties to the first time you saw that light in the sky when you were coming home from the football game, when you had that missing time, that missing two hours or whatever it was? If that could have been the first time. Let me just ask you this. Do you believe you were abducted? I am now at the point where I am calling myself an abductee.

Yes. Okay. So you without a shadow of a doubt, you believe that you're... Oh my God, shadow of a doubt. Now you've introduced that. I got shadows all over. The doubts are like the doubts all over it. But the stuff that has happened to me has been so weird and so beyond belief that I have been forced to say, yes, this really happened.

So here's the sticky part, right? So UFO abduction, right? So we have this pop culture. X-Files idea of metal spaceship filled with little scientists from another planet coming here to study mankind. Why the owls then? Why the psychic stuff? So here's, this is a, so people contact me are, this is a weird one for me.

People contact me, I talk to them on the phone. I get a new pad, I write the date, I write their phone number, simple stuff. I don't take that many notes. But one thing I do is I write Reiki. Do you know what Reiki healing is? Reiki therapy is? No. Oh, far out.

Okay. So, I'm hanging out with this. Like I was you for a long time, and I just got dragged into this. And all of a sudden, all my old friends, I still have a lot of my old friends, but all my old life faded away. And this new life emerged. And now I'm hanging out with psychics and shamans and Reiki healers and Turro readers and stuff. Sounds fun.

It's been amazing. It's been super rewarding. So, Reiki is a Japanese word, I think it means like life energy. So you go to a Reiki, you could look in the phone book or whatever. Google Reiki therapists. There'll be 10 of them within five. They're a healer's. They're healers.

It's a non, it's a, it's a form of non-physically, you don't touch the person. So a person lays in a meditation table and a Reiki healer will, you know, like often something simple, like stress. Like, oh, I've been super stressed out. I'm not sleeping well. So Reiki healer will go through these protocols and they'll put their hands over your body. About a half hour later say, okay, you're done. And the person will go home that night. Sometimes, not every time the person will say, I slept great.

health issues. So anyway, I write on the paper, Reiki. I know to do this now. Rakey. And I just wait. It's like, oh, I got your letter about UFOs and owls. So now we're talking on the phone, right? So you said you saw a UFO and had an owl experience.

Let's hear your story. And they tell the story. And people are emotional. They're like, they need to get it off their chest. It's not like they're, if they're trying to fool me, people don't cry when they're trying to fool you. Like, it's very common for people to cry when I talk to them. I mean, people cry from trauma.

If you're talking about, you talk to a Vietnam vet or something like that. They're going to, they're going to. So powerful emotions. So I would just wait. I say, what do you do for work? So I'm a Reiki healer. How many of them are Reiki healers? Okay, so that's of the people who contact me.

Don't tell me 90%. No, it's less than 90. But it's more than 50. So of the people who contact me and have a UFO and owl experience, that's the reason they're contacting me. Half of them are Reiki healers. That's a rough lesson. You don't even even know.

So go back to our spiritual, this, I'm, I'm extrapolating now. I'm speculating, right? So the UFO occupants say, your technology is far outstripped your spirituality. And you get these people, like I know a guy, he's a teamster, he's got tattoos, he's like, you know, a blue collar.

Truck driver? Truck driver. He said, he's had UFO contact experiences. Just, one day out of the blue he's like, I gotta go, I gotta learn to be a Reiki healer. Right? So, it's one thing if it's like it's some, you know,

woman in Sedona who's already got the turquoise earrings and the flowy white gown and stuff like that, it's normal that she should be a Reiki healer, but the truck driver with the tattoos and the, you know, the blue collar job. So I don't have an answer for that. But I'm saying, and if they're not Reiki healers, they're doing some other form of healing. There's some. Yeah. So. See, to me, that.

It just seems like a big red flag. What's the red flag? Because they're Reiki healers. They're like, it's the kind of people who, it's, you drive down, you drive down Dale Mabry in Tampa and there's all these little shacks open until 3 a.m. Wait for drunk people to come in and tell them their future. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But there's other people who are, I would argue very strongly.

This guy, this guy. Those are the kind of people that, you know, want to believe. They want to believe. They're, they're convinced themselves. They're not trying to fool you, but they're, they've fooled themselves and they want to make a connection with somebody. I mean, so this. this form of therapy has been around for thousands of years in Japan.

Right. No, I'm not, I'm not trying to discount. I'm not trying to discount the history of the therapy or, or the credibility of it, but the type of people that call themselves, a lot of them are scam artists and a lot of them are just hustlers. Okay, so this is the term I use is like, there's a lot of people in this field that make my toes curl in my shoes. Right. So I, that's a given, okay? But, this guy is a down to salt of the earth guy he's not trying to fool anyone he's done he's done a rakey session on me i was healing from an operation and and i i don't know whether there was benefit from it but i was you know so he helped you know i paid him it was i paid him it was you know it was

right so he i took him seriously he takes himself seriously and yeah i saw like i'm saying yes there's people in this field that can make your toes curl in your shoes at the same time, there's this powerful, mystical stuff that exist within this, within this, these accounts. Okay, so going back to your, your, uh, your first hypnosis, um, and you, you mentioned those five gray beings outside your window and you recounted like, oh no, not again. Yeah. And that's not something that you consciously remembered from this experience from from from you called it kind of like a dream like a very vivid dream and you kind of what your conscious recount of that experience was like okay they're here it's time to go to bed

it's time to go back to bed put my head down and just go to sleep exactly but when you went under you know under this hypnosis it was different saying like okay it's happening again right yep it felt familiar so it's happening again so it's happening to you again why do you you think that this is repeatedly happening to you? Why do you think they chose you? How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go here? As deep as we can go. Okay, okay. So, um, in order to tell that, I got to tell another story ahead of time, the story of March 10th, 2013, which is, it's easy to find online on the presentations. I talk about it. It's an event that happened in the desert of, of southern Utah. This, to tell this correctly takes about, takes some time.

So I don't want to give you just the surface story, but I'm going to try to race through it a little bit. Okay. Well, we have five and a half hours how you're playing leaves. Okay. So I was at a UFO conference, and I was driving home. The UFO conference was in Southern Arizona.

I lived in Idaho. You draw a line. The travel, line of travel is right through Utah. And I love Utah. So I wanted to take these little back roads and Twisty-Turney roads through like the four-corner area, through like the National Parks, through the sandstone desert, you know,

where like they shot the, like the location for the Roadrunner cartoons, you know, that terrain, which I love. And I did a lot of outdoor work over the years, and I've spent a lot of time in that area, and I love it. So this is like, it's deep bond to that area. Yeah. You spent a lot of your life outdoors camping and hiking and teaching mountaineering in Alaska

and Wyoming and all throughout the Rockies and in Canada. And skiing in the winter. So. So this is like, this is just another day for you. This is what you're used to. This is your sport. So, and then what happens is I'm totally comfortable sleeping outside, sleeping under the stars. Which is another crazy thing. That's, that's crazy sleeping in a bed. That's crazy when you think about it, you know. Like sleeping outside with no tent with fucking bears and rattlesnakes and. Rattlesnakes are asleep at night. The bears are like, you know, I've slept out in Yellowstone.

Anyway, so yes, it's, so for me, it's a little bit. what's a tent going to do if the bear comes along? Like, how is that going to slow them down? That's true. That's true. Might slow a rattlesnake down, but. But so at this point in my life, 2010, I've got the blog. I'm going to UFO conferences. I'm completely immersed in this stuff.

I've got a podcast. And driving home from the UFO conference, it was a spot I knew. I'd driven these roads before, and I was like, you know, to leave here in the morning. I betcha I sleep at this spot on Highway 20. I betcha I sleep there. I drove over there years ago and I said, this would be a good place to sleep. So I'm like, I'm going to aim for that.

That's where I want to sleep tonight. So I, uh, sun's going down. It's March, which is kind of wintry still. So it's cold at night in the desert that time of year, cold at night. So I pull into this little turnout and I, um,

lay my sleeping bag down in the dust. I got a great big winter sleep. I got my pillow that I drive with. I've got a pad, a big thick pad, right next to my car. The turnout was great. Like there's a spot. There's a little sort of dirt road. And there were some places where other people had obviously parked there and there were some old campfire rings and stuff. People had been there. So it's a, it's not just like a random spot. There's obviously a place that other people can go. Yeah. And it's like a little, it's a dirt road and stuff like that. And it accesses another dirt road and stuff like that. So it's a spot that in this to, out west,

it's pretty normal. Okay. You get tired. Just pull off to the side of the road and sleep on the ground. You don't do that in Florida. It's way too fucking hot. Yeah, yeah. So this is like, there's no humidity, zero humidity. Right. And everyone's Mormon. So everyone's like if like, that's like, everyone's nice. So, so I'm sleeping on, so I lay down to go to sleep.

And I wake up and I look up on this hillside. And I say, that looks just like a landed flying saucer. There's this thing up on this hillside. It's this big round structure. And I look up and I go, that looks just like a landed flying saucer. I think to myself. And I've got, do you want? Yeah, let's pull it up.

You know what, here? Let me do one thing here. Can we edit this out or you? Couldn't we put this in. No, let's put it in. So, go to my website. The search bar. And then just scroll down a little bit.

Oops. And just keep on scrolling because I actually have a bunch of pictures that are all on one. Just keep, no, I won't. Okay, let's try, I don't know that. I wouldn't know the title of it. Just scroll down. It's been within the last.

year or so just keep go fast just go buzz past everything oh no you're on the old page there so just hit the top the go all the way back up to the top and hit the logo at the top go to the home page reboot it yeah reboot the home page great yeah you can just go go go go yeah it's gonna be just really you might even have to go to the next page but this is going to be easier for me to find it yeah keep on going down I'll see it when it shows up keep on going down yeah great I go to older posts older posts on the other go yeah and then there's an owl I saw in the backyard

for those listening and not watching we are scrolling through Mike's blog post website oh here you go there so now all these pictures are are from the March 10th story so I've talked about it on a in an audio book

and so go ahead so there's the turnoff okay so that's where you were camping that's where I camping that's a Google Maps view I kind of I'm an illustrator so I tooled that a little bit and that arrow

I made it I was a daytime picture I made it nighttime, yeah. So go ahead. So double-click that image there with the thing. So I look up on this hillside, and there's this round building up there. And I say, that looks just like a landed flying saucer. And I look at this thing.

And I'm, like, thinking, like, I'm, like, just was that a UFO conference? And I, like, if this was a UFO, this was a landed flying saucer, I should feel something. And at my gut level, I should feel something. Like, intuitively, I should feel something. Right. And I looked at this thing.

I felt nothing at all. I rolled over and went to sleep. I woke up a second time, and there was a coyote howling near my head. Now, I've slept outside a thousand nights in terrain like this.

And I've heard a lot of coyotes. I have never heard anything that close. I sat up, I looked around, I couldn't see it. Surrounded by Sageyoteers ever fuck with you? No, they might, no. I've never heard anyone. The coyotes don't mess people?

They're scared of them? I mean, anything's possible. right so yeah I mean they could get into food or something like that right right so but anyway but I was not scared at all it was like this magic moment like I'm in this beautiful spot there's a trillion stars that's absolutely like night in the desert is unlike anything else like it's way out in the middle of southern Utah no light pollution from anywhere so like this coyote's howling I look up and that thing is still there and there was actually one little light off to the side

which I you can see there's one light that's not right connected. And I remember thinking like, you know what that's like, that's like at my house at home. Like that's the lawn light, you know, like on in front of this house. So I rolled over and went back to sleep. And I woke up a third time and there's a bush near my feet. And there was this bright light behind the bush. And it was like this weird light. It wasn't a car headlight. It wasn't someone with the flashlight. It was this weird light. It seemed white. But it wasn't like a car, like you open a car door and the dome light. It wasn't headlights.

It was like something. I was like, okay, someone else is sleeping here tonight. Someone just pulled in and they're sleeping here. And I looked up at that thing. It was still up there on the hilltop and I rolled over and went back to bed. Now, the next morning I woke up and I don't remember if I looked up to see this building on the hillside. It was dark when I got up. I felt like I slept all night.

I kind of go to bed early when you're driving. And then I drove home. It was about a 12-hour drive or so from that from there. so 10 hours or so. So from that spot early in the morning, like five in the morning I start driving, I get home in the afternoon to my house in Idaho. And the first thing I do when I get home

is I look up on Google Maps thinking like, oh, there should be a building there. So go ahead and scroll down a little bit. So there should be a building there. And I went back a year later. Okay, there's like, that's Google Maps. And I kind of put the little, there's my sleeping spot with the yellow push bin.

And there's the spot I went back later. So a year later I went back there. There's no building up there. And that was too, okay, now you don't go too much farther. Yeah. So that building there, or excuse me, that, that hillside there is the hillside without anything there. I went there full daylight. That was your, that was your perspective from where you were sleeping, looking at the...

Absolutely, I was standing in the exact... Make that picture big, Jordan? Yeah, right there. So it looks like, you know, sagebrush wilderness of, you know, cattle country in southern Utah. That's the whole lots of it looks like that. And that is exactly... I'm very, very skilled with maps. So that's exactly...

Are you? Yeah, yeah. as an outdoor educator, yeah. So I'm good, and I make maps. So go up one. You have to, and then, yeah, so there's, that's Google Maps. So that was, so I used Photoshop and I put that arrow in, and I put the little fake dots up there to show where the round structure was.

That is, from the sleeping spot, it's 2.6, I think it's 2.6 miles away, which in the desert is, you're crystal clear. Right. There's no humidity in the air. So I've gone to my like I've looked at homes 2.6 miles away on a hillside and I've measured on maps and you can see a house. You can totally see the roof and see the house in the garage and everything like that. So but it wasn't there, which I sort of knew. That was but and the moment when I looked up on the map, I was like, why wasn't that there?

Maybe the map was maybe the building is brand new and the map is only a year old, right? So I made a blog post and that's what I did the illustration for for a blog post. So I posted that blog post. This is where it gets weird. Now, that blog post, I posted at 1234, 1, 2, 3, 4. Okay, it's a little kernel of information. If you go back in my blog, and shortly after March 10th, there's the blog where I write about it real time, slept out in the desert, saw this weird thing, heard coyotes, light at the foot of my bed.

And then after I post it, I actually called Mufant. I said, have you had any reports from this area? this guy said not from that last night would have been the night before right not from last night but we get a lot of reports in that area yeah so so go down one and there's a little map there so i'm standing just click that once so i'm standing at the side of my desk after posting this thing and now just you got to trust me just me like you got to i i standing the side of my desk i had this like one second click psychic flash, I see in my mind's eye this map.

I see that in my mind's eye. And then it just is there for a second, and it disappears. And I've got my computer open. I was just looking at maps. I got all these point. I got the point, the yellow point there is where, or the greenish point there is where I was sleeping. Sleeping.

And that's, that's, uh, what's the red dot? That's, you'll find out on there to tell the story correctly. So I knew there were three events on these three dots. on this thing. So I knew what the green one was. That was the event from the night before. Right. And I knew what the

blue one was. That was an event from doing this from my head. That was from the springtime of 2010. And I was camping with a friend of mine, Natasha, who I met at a UFO conference. She's from Germany. She came

over to, we had a plan to spend time in the desert. and hike around the four corners area. That's the four corners area. That's where Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, and Arizona all come together. That's that little spot where the state lines cross there. So we had a great trip.

We just went for weeks. We were hiking around. It was great weather. It was magical. It was this great trip. And we were pulled into the little town of Cortez, Colorado. And there's something wrong with the brakes in my car. And so I asked somebody on the mainst.

street like is there a mechanic and this guy says oh this guy back here he's good he's the town mechanic everyone goes to him so i go to the mechanic little teeny town and i dropped the car off and then natasha and i just sit out front for 45 minutes or something and he comes out and it's like he's got his oily rag it's like small town in dusty colorado and he kind of looks at me and says i can't let you leave town or you'll die and i'm like what do you what do you mean by that he says well the brakes are going to fail the brakes are like the brakes is if i i would be liable if I let you out with the car like this. I'm like, okay, what does this mean? So I can

fix it, but it's going to be about five days until the park comes in. Five days, okay. So the guy at the shop helps me get a rent-a-car. Natasha and I have nothing to do. Like, well, let's hang out for five days. So we'll leave the car here. We'll drive around a rent-a-car. The rent-car was great.

It was easy. It was cheap. A little town. You know, so that night, we camp on the side of the road. We asked someone, where's good camping on the side of the road around here? this girl at the coffee shop she saw this great spot you go take this thing out of town

you turn left here and there's a forest service road you'll find great stuff out there great so we went out there we found great stuff set up a tent and so Natasha and I are sitting side by side and we woke up in the middle of the night screaming

both of us were screaming I have she describes it the same way I do I've since called it synthetic fear. Like it was, I have spent thousands of nights in a tent. I've never felt anything like this. It was irrational fear. Here, go ahead and scroll up a little bit.

So I'm, I'm, I, oh no, down, excuse me, down. And just, oops. Oh, I missed it. It's not in there. Sorry, it's going to be out of order here. I'll find it in a little bit. So I Um

So I like Natasha what happened what happened What's going on? What's going on? What's going on? And I'm like freaking out And she's like I saw face Like saw face I don't know what that means soft face So she was screaming and like And I literally

I felt like I climbed on top of her Like someone threw a hand grenade in the tent Like what's going on Why are we both so scared? You can talk to Natasha She'll She says it the same way It was irrational

And then we just After a little bit we're both asleep. We go from complete adrenaline freak out to a sleep. And then, now this is where it's very murky. And I'm only going to tell you what I remember. I don't think this is what happened,

but this is my memory. I had the total, I'm shaking, just telling the story. I had this elevator up feeling. And I floated off the sleeping pad, and I felt myself floating up and through the roof of the tent.

And I just kind of faded away, It just kind of faded into this whiteness, this realm of total whiteness. And as I was floating, I said, I have to remember this. I have to remember this. I have to remember this.

And then it changed to, am I on a table? Am I on a table? Am I on a table? Now, I have no memories of being on a table. All I have is a memory of just this totality of whiteness. So, I don't know.

all of a sudden I hear Natasha's voice, which I don't think she said this. I hear Natasha's voice with her German accent. She says, Mike, you're floating. And then I'm back in the tent. And I'm, and she, so we both sleep soundly. We wake up in the morning. The birds are chirping.

The sun's out. And I like, Natasha, what happened last night? And she's like, I saw this face. I don't know. And so when I was floating, I also saw a, round floating pizza pan shaped disc, which I've called a mandala in the tent with me. Inside the tent? It was inside the tent.

So she, I said, I saw this face. And to tell this story properly, it requires a lot. I'm just going to, it's in the book. I would sidetrack us and take a half hour to tell this part and come back again. So I get out of the tent, I walk around, and I'm like, I'm literally looking for a spot. on the ground where a flying saucer landed. There's nothing. There's no burn mark. I wanted to find it.

But later that day, I found a scratch on my chest. It started at my left shoulder and went almost to my belly bun. And it was like it was a legit scratch, like a cat claw, single cat claw, red mark, red line. But when you looked at it really closely, it wasn't a scratch at all. It wasn't like a wound like that at all. It was a line of tiny little fluid-filled blisters. that were kind of red. And what happened is a few days later, it washed off.

Like small dots almost in sequence? Like a small line of polka dots. But each individual polka dot was a tiny fluid-filled blister, like half a millimeter, tiny. And I needed glasses to see it. And I took a shower a few days later and it washed off. And both Natasha, Natasha's a UFO researcher in Germany. I'm a UFO researcher here. When it washed off, we both went,

we should have taken a picture of it. That's another thing that's very common. People like avoiding pulling a camera out. Did you go and get a cat scan after this? No, I didn't. I never got a cat scan. That would be interesting to see if they could find anything different about your insides or if they put anything in your body or something. I've thought about doing stuff like that.

I have never done it. My plate's full, right? My plate's full trying to deal with this stuff. stuff. So I, um, so we're like, we're stuck down there for five days. I call the friend up. This is the friend that said, um, you want proof? Look at my email inbox. Her name is Miriam Delacado. So I call Miriam Delacado. She spent a lot of time down there. And she says, I would call her up and like, we're stuck down the four corners area with this renter car. What do we do? She said, you go to Canyon DeShay, which is in the, um, uh, Navajo Reservation in Arizona. And you, there's a guy that

runs a sweat lodge ceremony. They go do a sweat lodge ceremony. It's great, perfect. So we went down there and I got his phone number. I called him up. I said, we're driving down. He's like, we'll do a sweat lodge tomorrow. And he runs a campground, and there was a few other people there that were going to do the

sweat lodge too that had asked him about it. So it's not the guy who went to prison, isn't it? No, that somebody died? Yeah. No, that happened in Sedona. Oh, okay. Yeah. No, this, in fact, he talked about that at the event.

Oh, did he? Yeah. So he said, this is all you do it. That's some crazy shit. Yeah. So, but anyway, so it was just a, keep on scrolling down and see if I can find some more of these images here. Keep going. Okay. Oops. You went past. Okay, let's, yeah, go back up again. Yeah, it's not in this, it's not in this section here. Look up, type in that little box on the side. You can just go right up back up to the side in that. Irrational fear. Oops. Nope, not there. One more up. There we go. Boom. Irrational fear.

And just see if it comes up. Yeah, there we go. Okay. So there's, you can click on that. That's a drawing I did. I had bigger sidebirds and I was less gray than. Wow, you are, you are a serious artist. I'm a professional.

I've worked as a professional illustrator. That's a fucking great picture. Well, I mean, I tried to capture it. And so that was the floating pizza pan that was in the room there. So it felt like I- off to the side kind of, the pizza pan. Yeah. Was it directly above you?

It was more, it's hard to hear. It was more above, if this was perfectly accurate, which is not, It would actually be more above Natasha's knees. It looks like above her chest there, but it'd be more above her knees. So we're in the sleep in. So we just, I float up. And that's when I floated through the roof.

I felt like I floated through the roof. I don't know if this really happened. It felt, you know what it felt like? Magnets. Being in between the magnets. Yeah. So. And when you have that feeling of being in between the magnets

that are kind of pushing away from each other, do you feel like that you're completely, you have absolutely no control and you can't, you just have no control over your environment and you're sort of like paralyzed? So I, that's a, so this is,

this is all of like 10 seconds, this memory. I don't know whether I was paralyzed or not. I don't have any memory of being paralyzed. What it feels more like, is the knobs that control your emotion are at zero. Like there was no,

like, this is pretty weird, right? So I went like, like, I should have been like, holy shit, what is this? And I wasn't. It was like, every emotion was like, I was blandly blank.

So void of any emotion. Like the vacuum cleaner sucked all the emotion around me. Okay. So at what point on this line map? Where did this take place? This was at the farthest east one. The one in Colorado, right? The one in Colorado.

Okay. Okay. So we do this sweat lodge ceremony. It's really big. So the theme of the ceremony was surrender. Like just surrender to the heat. You know, so. And there's four sessions and it gets progressively hotter for the four car.

for the four cardinal points on the compass. And the guy who let it was great. He was drumming. He was chanting. He was funny. And he was just encouraging us to let go, surrender. It was a beautiful thing. I'd never done anything like that before.

I loved it. It was really, I did not get some magical epiphany from it. But it was a lovely experience. And Natasha enjoyed it too a lot. And then, so, that's a long story that starts out with the guy saying, you can't leave town or you'll die. and ends with a metaphoric death and rebirth ceremony. That's you go into the sweat lodge to metaphorically die to come out reborn.

So I was there in my house in Idaho in front of my computer. What was the third thing in the middle of the map? You can go back now to the page you were at before. You can just hit the back arrow up there, I think. And it should take you to, we were way down at the bottom there. That's right. Yeah. Oh, there you go.

back up there. So, so, um, bird trail road. Keep on going down. That's the map. So, so we have, we've, we've designated the westernmost point, which is green and the easternmost point, which is blue. Right. And there's that other line in the middle. So go, just go down. Oh, that's the site. Okay, so there's a burt trail road. This is from Google Maps. So we were driving around. I, had been to this area before, and I was like, I bet you can find a good spot to camp here. So we pulled off this, this is there can click on that image of the Bertrail Road there. So we drove off in this little dirt pull off. This is a daylight picture. And we sat there as the sun was setting.

It was this beautiful evening. This was again with Natasha. Oh, hold it. I'm jumping way around here. I did the thing that I didn't want to do. Okay. So the one story ends, right? So this event here is from 2011.

Natasha comes back a year later. She goes to the same UFO conference that we met at. We're there together. And then we drive back to Idaho. where my home is. And then to do that, you have to drive through Utah. So let's take our time. Let's drive through the west.

Let's sleep out under the stars. So that's what we did. So coming home from a year later, it's a year after the event in the tent, we're sleeping alongside the Birtrail Road. Here, I can go advance one or you have to go back. And, oh, here, now let's not click that one yet. Yeah, let's stay with that one there.

So sleeping out, trillions of stars. Natasha's from Germany. I've been driving all day. She's like, wakes me. Mike, I'm totally jet-laked. I can't sleep. What do I do? I'm like, oh my God, I've been driving all day. All I want to do is sleep. Like, it's a beautiful night.

Just go for a walk. Go for a walk out there. So she goes for a walk, and I lay in the sleeping bag on the sand. And when she wax away, there's an owl hooting in the bush near my head. It was so close and so loud. I don't understand why I didn't. see it. It's almost the same as that coyote. Like it was so loud and so close, I couldn't understand why I didn't see it. It's right there. It was right there. So a little while later,

Natasha comes back and says, Mike, we need to go. We got to get out of here. Like, what, what, what, what? We got to go. It's like, what happened? What happened? She tells this story. So when she tells it completely, it was a little panicky that night, but she says, you know, when I left the campsite here and just walked on the road, she didn't get very far, like, you know, a couple hundred yards. there was she said it felt so magical the stars and the stillness and the quiet she said it felt so magical it felt like i was sparkling it felt so magical and she's walking along and then there was a light off in the sagebrush and she was like what's that light you can see the terrain there it's just like you know sand and sagebrush and bushes and there's a light off in the sagebrush and she was like who's out here at that night with the flashlight and then the light starts floating along she

realize, oh, no, this is a floating orb. It's a floating orb that's floating along. So the orb goes, gets really big and goes, poof, and then flashes and vanishes. Then she's scared. She runs back, and that's when she wakes me. So I am listening to the call of a great horned owl, while Natasha is seeing an unidentified flying object, a floating, glowing orb. I asked her, did you hear that?

The owl's so loud. The owl's so loud. Noise rings in the desert. She said, I never heard an owl. So, go ahead, go to the next picture? Yeah, so I had my map program, and I pushed a button and brought up the yellow line. That yellow line is where I was sleeping on the sand. That red pushpin is where I was sleeping on the sand.

Right about at the bottom of it was, that road was where Natasha was walking when she saw the orb. So basically just above the R and road is roughly where she was. So pretty close. I mean, we could have talked to each other easily. That wasn't that far apart. Those are big bushes. So when I saw that yellow line and those three events lined up on a map, I was like, what is that yellow line?

That yellow line is the yellow line. Here, go up a few? That's that yellow line. That's I pinpointed exactly, I will say, to the millimeter, the east and west points. to where the events happened. And the yellow line is the straight line that connects those two sites. And that's where I was sleeping on the side of the road,

hearing the owl while Natasha saw the orb. So those three insane UFO events that you experienced, you can draw a straight line from the location of each one. Well, it's easy to draw a straight line between two, right? Right, but there's three. There's three. And you can draw a perfectly straight line. And it passes, not only, it passes exactly. Like you can, so like a, like, turn the clock back like 15 years, right?

So you had a paper map and a pencil, right? So you put a little X on one spot the best you can guess. You put a little X in the best spot. You put the ruler down, you put a line across the map. That line may be a half mile thick in reality. Right. You can zoom in with Google Maps, get that line one pixel thick. It crosses where I slept in the ground while listening to an owl.

Wow. So I cannot I call this my confirmation event When I saw that yellow line My old world ended And all that stuff about like Oh did that really happen? What is it did that? Like gosh I wonder if those things were in the backyard

Gia like all that ended And I was like oh Like It's real Like nobody could have Like my subconscious couldn't have put these three things on the map My like how did this happen Like the power of this crazy

synchronicity, set of synchronities. If these are UFO scientists in a metal spaceship coming for another planet, how did they do that? So I like to sleep outside. I like to make maps. I love stuff like coyotes and owls and shamanic experiences, like sweat lodges. This whole thing feels like it was like tailored specifically for me. It felt like the clues that were set before me, I was the only one who could decipher them. But why you, though? So why you? What is your belief?

Okay, so I'll answer that with a story in a second. But here's just to make things weirder. So the middle one and the easternmost one, the red and the blue one, happened with Natasha. Okay. The green one, I was alone. It happened on March 10th.

March 10th is Natasha's birthday. Like, to tell this story correctly, there are so many strange little synchronicities connected like that. So that, that, if that happened in 2013. So let me just, for my own sake, I need to say something. I spent between about 2006 until that line, until I clicked that line in the map and saw it, like 48 hours after sleeping out in the desert. I My mind I basically spent

95% of my waking hours wondering if I had gone insane Like no doubt I am not exaggerating I was stuck in this tape loop That was grinding away in my head That just said This can't be happening

Is this true? I don't know if this is true This can't be happening is this true I don't know if this is true When that line showed up I uninstalled That I mean the The tape loop was out of my head.

And I could proceed forward in a way. Like all of a sudden, I was like, oh, my God, life's pretty easy now without that grinding thing. Am I going insane? Okay. Because this really happened. Right. Like, I'm not exaggerating about these events here.

That's concrete, yeah. Now, 2018, August of 2018, I go for hypnosis session. Who hypnotized you this time? Yvonne Smith in California. Okay. And she, like with Bud gone and Leo Sprinkles is now very old. So there's these key players in the field that are getting kind of old and have either passed on or no longer doing the work.

And so she's sort of the main person now in North America who's doing this type of research hypnosis. So I went to her office and we had met a few times before at conferences and she was, we had talked. And she actually had my book. She has the blue book, the owl book. and so she so I went to her office and I had done a session earlier in the same story emerged again

and I didn't believe it I didn't know what to make of it the first time the story emerged what happened was I did a session with a woman named Mary Rodwell almost a year earlier and I just didn't know what to make of this story I just didn't know what to make of it

so I said I'm going to explore the night this is the night here of March 10th 2013 I want to explore this night. So she takes me back, the hypnotic induction. I'm very relaxed. I'm lying on our couch. The lights are low in her little office. Looks like a therapist's office.

She's sitting in a chair right next to me. We got a voice recorder in the room. I'm laying stretched out on her thing. She goes through about a half hour induction. Like simple stuff. Like walking down a staircase. And she says, where are you? Like, let's go to the night of March 10th, 2013.

The night you saw the round structure on the hill. It's like, And I'm like, I'm lying there. I'm going, well, it stars are out. It's clear. You know, I'm kind of like, do-de-do. Like, am I under? You know, it's like, I'm on the pillow.

It's pretty, like, I can look up and see this thing. I kind of have a clear memory of it. And she asks a few more questions. And all of a sudden I go, and this is gut-wrenching to listen to at times, the session. And I just go, I know it's them. I know it's them. I know it's them. And I was describing the light behind the bush.

and then I say, I'm looking down at this big thing. I'm looking down at this big round structure. It's got lights around the edges. I'm above it looking down at it. And I think I'm still in the, my body's still in the sleeping bag. And she goes, are you out of body? I'm like, I don't know. I think my body's in the sleeping bag.

And I think I'm looking down at this big round structure. And then there's this like, all of a sudden I'm on board the craft. Can you scroll down a little bit? I think I got this here. Keep going. Double-click that one, the hallway. Yeah. So I'm,

so I'm all of a sudden, I'm in a hallway that looks like this. I did that as a piece of art. Okay. And so, so I'm in this hallway, and the very first thing I see, the very first thing I recognized.

Now, this is, I had the same experience before, but it was all disjointed, and I was so freaked out. For some reason, I'm much more calm than this time. And so, in this hallway,

the first thing I sense is, I'm not tall. I'm not tall. I'm short. And I look to my right, I look to my left, and there's a gray alien on each side of me, and they're the same height. And I looked on at my hands,

I got these long skinny fingers, I looked on on my arms, and I got this skinny space suit on, and I'm like, holy shit, I'm a fucking gray alien. And it was like totally normal, and Yvonne is just like, doesn't bat it. Like, what happens next?

And the next thing it happens is I'm in this conversation, conference room. And it's like an ugly conference room like you would see in an ugly cheap hotel, right? It's got beige carpeting and fluorescent lights and folding tables and, and I'm standing there. And then there's this folding table. It seems like it was like between eight or 12. There's a bunch of beings. They're all kind of fuzzed out, but they're, they're, but I can only call it the great aliens. Now, I'm going to just say this straight up. I don't know what to make of this story. that I'm telling right now.

Like, is it true? Is it not true? Did it really happen? Like, there's no ugly conference room with ugly shag carpeting on board a flying saucer. So I don't know what I was seeing. But I was presented with this vision

in this hypnotic session. I'm standing there in the body of a gray alien looking at these beings. And I'm like, what am I doing here? Why am I here? And I get this voice in my head that says, you volunteered for this. I'm like, what is that supposed to mean?

I volunteered for this. what am I doing here? Now is the time. So I'm like, what does that mean now is the time? So it goes back and forth, we get kind of stuck in this little thing. And then all of a sudden I'm like, just overcome with emotion. And I say, you never told me it would be this hard being here. You never told me there would be sadness, there would be loneliness.

You never told me that it would be this hard being here. And they say, you volunteered for this. and I in the session I am like so angry I am crying I am like this is fucked up like I'm here I'm dealing with this pain I'm dealing with these emotions you have no idea how hard it is to be here you're like this is fucked up you volunteered for this and I get super emotional and Yvonne's like saying what do they want from you what do they want from you what do they want from the, and I think I say, they want me to play some role. And at that point, like, you can hear it in the audio.

You can hear me going to go. And I, I remember lying on the couch. It felt like my heart stopped. It felt like my stopped breathing. My heart stopped. It felt like I sunk. Like, I was so tense. I was crying.

I was screaming. Like, it was ugly, like how angry I was. Really? And I, all of a sudden, I'm, I go from totally rigid with anger and fear. Like, then, through. Like, just totally relaxed. And there's this long, long silence. And Yvonne says, what happens next?

And I said, I think I'm back in the sleeping bag. Now, before we started the session with Yvonne and I, I said, hey, somewhere in this thing, when I'm, like, in this vulnerable, unconscious state, you ask me, what's up with the owls? What's up with all the owls? Why owls? She said, okay. So I'm like, she says, Mike.

What is your connection to owls? And without skipping a beat. Now, when you do hypnosis, oftentimes the answers are like really herky, jerky, and they're just a little whisper, and you kind of mumble a lot. She's like, what's up? What's your connection with owls?

And I speak very clearly. I say, the owls aren't important. The owls are a sign on a door. The owl is the correct sign for the door, but the owl is not important. It is the door that it's important. This was like seared into my mind after. Wow.

So, and I say, we are on this side of this door. We are trapped in this tight little claustrophobic hallway. And on the other side of the door is an infinite vastness. And then she asked a few more questions about some. And I was like, I got to get out of here. This is too much. I got to come out of this. so she brought me out of the hypnosis session

so I that was when I said I was I saw this it was super emotional the first time it was super emotional the second time it felt like I was watching a rerun frame for frame rerun of the exact same experience with Mary Rodwell and then a year later with Yvonne Smith so I had two hypnosis sessions the exact same story emerges really word for word frame for frame

it was like watching a rerun Like, you know, when you click this, you saw this one before. And then you sit there for a half hour and watch it anyway. I was like, I wanted. So, but except for the part at the end about the owls aren't important. So this is like, for me, I feel like I'm on a therapist couch right now. Like I'm like, I spent a decade. Like owls, owls, owls, owls in UFOs.

It's owls. It's the owl thing. I'm the owl guy. It's like, I'm my identity. It's my work. It's my passion. It's this thing that's. And then to have like me just blurt out.

totally calm and confident, the owls aren't important. The owls are a sign and a door. I took that to mean the owl is a symbol. The door is that other realm. We are on this side, in this realm, trapped in this claustrophobic hallway, that other realm is infinite and magical and enormous, and we are stuck here,

and that's there. Maybe when we die, we'll get there. Maybe some, you know, so anyway, I can tell you right now, There is no ugly conference room on board of flying saucer. And I can also say, I don't trust it. At the same time, it was powerful. Powerful.

So I'm in this place now where I'm trying to lead my life from this place where, like, was I like a gray alien in another lifetime? And I incarnated here on Earth to perform some role? I mean, that's the message. And just so you know, that actually shows up a lot in the research. when people go through hypnosis. The similar story to that? Almost exactly the same thing.

It shows up a lot. And I knew it going into it. So I could have confabulated it. The file cabinets in my head are full of stories like this. So I could, if I want to confabulate it, I could, I could do a, I could create a doozy of a story. But the first book, the first all book, the blue book, I started writing that less than 48 hours after spending the night in the desert when I looked up at that big round structure. on the hill. So I didn't put this together until like five years later, right? So I'm laying on the sand. I see all this weird stuff. I hear coyotes and lights in the by the bush and I drive home and there's,

you know, I connect these things in a map and then I start the book. Okay, five years later I get this thing where I'm, where like the story that emerges, which I don't know if it's true or not, is that I have, I'm a, I lived some identity. I incarnated, as a gray alien. I lived some identity as a gray alien. I incarnated here on Earth to play some role, and I started the book less than two days later. So you asked me, why are they picking these people? Why are they choosing people? What's the meaning here? People who've had these contact experiences, write books. There's a lot of books out there. I've read a lot of them. So what's, you ask, what, I don't, was it given your question, the answer I would,

grudgingly give. It's like, why did they do this to me? I was like, I think it was to write a book about owls. Because that's how it played out. That's what happened. And I didn't figure this out until five years after the book was published. Yeah. Interesting.

Well, it's a fascinating journey you've been on, man. Sorry, I got kind of like the coffee was good and I felt like I was on a roll there. So yeah, forgive me if I like got too, like, I didn't, I don't want to be like the fire and brimstone. No, it was great. It's great. It's a every single bit, I mean,

especially combined with these illustrations that you're able to, to put along with your story. It's fascinating, man. It's mind bending. And so you were, I could see where you were hesitant.

I could see where you were, it's like, oh, this is tough. Yeah. So in this research, there's like a crazy line in the sand. Everyone's got the crazy line, right? And you can be on this side of the line.

Oh, I'll study UFOs and be on this side. And then there's the crazy line. on the other side of the line. I'm not going there. That stuff's crazy. Those people that talk about abduction, that's crazy talk. I'm not crossing that line.

And everyone's got it, including me. But what happens is that line fluctuates and it moves back and forth. You talk to enough people. It moves this way. It moves that way. You get some.

So, and everyone in this research has a different crazy line in a different spot. So I am pushed right up to the edge of my own. My story, my own story. I don't know what to believe it. It's on, my story is on the other side of the line. Mm-hmm.

So here I am, so like, to, to proceed forward in this work, in this stuff, in this research, like, people, you know, people are disappointed sometimes they read the books and like, we didn't come to much of a conclusion. I'm like, I don't know. I'd be lying if I came to a conclusion. Right, right. Well, it's, it's just incredible, you know, all the, all the stories and all of the, especially the concrete evidence of where you were on those maps. being able to draw the lines from one thing to another. It's, it's, I don't even know, I don't even know what to say about it. It's just super interesting. And I'm excited, I'm interested to hear where you go from here, especially.

Like, do you, do you plan on look going into any other specific directions from now on? Do you plan on publishing any sort of more of your research, more of the stuff that you've found? What do you, where do you go from here? so I you know what I so here can I just so here's the yeah show us the book so there's the book so this is the first one hold them up who do I talk to who do I point it's okay so this is the first book this is the first book analysis this was published in 2015 and that was the one that I just talked about that started here's the second one this basically is stories that were left over from the first one this was called stories from the messengers and this one is a collection of blog posts so

when I talked about having my blog I was like blogging about these experiences in real time do you know who Richard Dolan is? Yes, I do. Who is he? Remind me. Oh, he's a historian who does UFO research. He's kind of the, he's kind of the... I've heard the name a thousand times.

Oh, he's on every documentary on. So he published these books initially. Oh, really? And then he kind of backed... He's doing some other work now, and he kind of backed out. Oh, yeah, go ahead. And so he backed out of the, the publishing research. And, excuse me, publishing books.

and he's now got a website where he's doing members content as well as podcasting and things like that so it's similar to what you're doing. Okay. And but he's like for a while he was like the guy

I would call up and like in the middle of the night like show shit. Oh really? Like what do I do? What do I do? He's like he's like you got to you gotta do a memoir. You gotta do your memoir. And I thought about it and I was like

I already did the memoir. It's all in the blog. It's all in real time. So these stories that I was just sharing all those, those are blog posts by blog post. You can read them like the day after I wrote those stories. So instead of saying 10 years ago, I had this experience, some of them are,

you know, obviously the stuff when I was a kid, but I'm also talking about my emotions and stuff like that. Now what I will say is that the first two books with the owls in the cover are more for a general audience. By the way,

just to point out, it's no surprise, but a lot of book covers really suck. These book covers are fucking beautiful. Oh, I did these. I was an art director. I was like, no one's doing my book cover. Like, I'm doing it.

They're amazing. Yeah. There's a lot of shitty book covers out there, and I appreciate these ones. So, so my logic in creating these was, there's a lot of shitty book covers out there, and I'm not going to be one of the shitty ones. So I wanted to make a nice book cover for these books.

Yeah, so thank you. Thank you. That means a lot to me, because I was like, no doubt. I went full on, like, I want these to be nice to look at. So the third one, which is called Hidden Experience, which is the name of the blog. Honestly, that's not for everyone.

That's like way on the other side of the crazy line for most folks. But it is my own angst is right in there. Like it's a little bit, like I think I gushed too much at times. But people who have had the experience get a hold of me and said, I read your book, that third book, and thank you for writing it, because it helped me a lot. Wow.

And that means a lot to me. So I get that, I get that kind of feedback in those kind of letters and that means a lot to me. Wow. Well, Mike, I think we've covered

pretty much everything we possibly can. Where can people find your books? Where can they buy your books and where can they contact you? You can get the books on Amazon. Easy enough. Just type in my name. The first book is called The Messengers.

If you click on one, the rest of the series just shows up. If you want to get a hold of me, you can get to my website. You know what you can do, is you can type UFOs owls, and I'm the first thing that comes up. It's better to search for it than to just type it in directly.

It's fewer letters, yeah. It's only six letters, so you can, yeah. But you can go to Mike Clellan.com, and that will take you to my blog, and that'll also link you up to the other sites where you can get the books and things. Awesome. Thanks again, Mike.

I really enjoyed this. This was great. Thanks. Goodbye, world. Thank you.