Danny Jones Podcast - #140 - Ex-Anonymous Insider Sentenced to 105 Years in Prison | Barrett Brown

Episode Date: June 9, 2022

Barrett Brown is an American journalist, essayist, activist and former associate of Anonymous. He founded Project PM, a research wiki for analysis of the troves of leaked information concerning the military-industrial complex. https://twitter.com/ProjPM help us make more money: https://bit.ly/koncretepatreon Danny  https://www.instagram.com/jonesdanny  https://twitter.com/jonesdanny Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So you are the second person that I've talked to who, for legal reasons, is not in the U.S. and I've had to do a Zoom interview with because I typically don't do Zoom interviews. So could you sort of explain your geographical situation that you're in right now and how that ties into the FBI and the alleged leaked audio that you posted? Absolutely. Absolutely. So after I got out of prison in 2016, over my involvement with the, you know, a number of leaks and investigations into Palantir, H.P. Gary, Booz Allen Hamilton, Cambridge, Cambridge Analytica, firms that later went on to get caught over and over again, interfering with Democratic elections. About a few months after I got released, they got re-arrested by the federal marshals for giving interviews to Vice and to PBS. There was no paperwork, no warrants, no BOP, Bureau of Prison Documentation, no paperwork whatsoever. I was released five days later after one of my publishers paid a New York law firm $10,000 to basically go to them and threaten them and say, hey, we're going to take it to court right now.

It's not going to look good. So they let me out after that. At that point, I announced several times publicly on democracy now and on Russia today and a few other outlets that as soon as my probation ended and I was allowed to, I would be leaving the U.S. for good. And I finally did that at the end of 2020. I went to Antigua from there on, came to the UK. And found out last year when I received six hours of secretly recorded audio made by Val Broksmith, who was a son of a Deutsche Bank executive who supposedly killed himself back in 2015, one of several Deutsche Bank executives who had that little cluster of suicides all of a sudden at that time. found out from him, or from these recordings he had made,

of a meeting that he had with the FBI at the LA office in the very end of 2020, that I was, again, a target. You're great at protecting your data, but lots of places could still expose you to identity theft. I thought it was safe. If that happens, LifeLock gives you a U.S.-based restoration agent who will stick by your side from start to finish. phone calls, filing documentation, preparing insurance claims, your agent handles it all.

In fact, we're so confident restoration is guaranteed, pour your money back. Isn't it nice to have someone like that on your side? Save up to 40% your first year at lifelock.com slash Spotify. Terms apply. As it were. And that was further verified when I was arrested for my involvement in this protest against expanded police powers against protesters. when I was arrested last year on the canal boats that I live in with my fiance, arrested, brought to the Metropolitan Police Station and overheard one of the metropolitan officers, one of the arresting officers telling one of the desk clerks that this is the guy, the FBI that they want, the guy I told you about earlier.

So, gleaned from that, that I was in trouble and that they were going to ship me, and that turned out to be the case, they put me to immigration. Removal Center the next day. There was some falsified documents to the home office put that claimed that my visa had been up after five months rather than six months. This is something that's mentioned in one of the articles that came out later. Anyway, that when I got out, that that's when I got the recordings of the five hours of audio.

So between that and a few other things that came up and some other sources I can't talk about, it became pretty abundantly clear that, you know, that the FBI was back on the, back on the rampage. And I have no way of knowing, despite it's, despite reporters having gone to the FBI and asked, hey, what do you, what are you after them for? No way of knowing what charges they would have this time or even if the charges are, you know, ready yet. They would be sealed, presumably. I also have no way of knowing to what extent me releasing that six hours of audio that makes some of the FBI agents in question look very, very bad, whether that might have caused him to back off. Likewise, I have no way of knowing if the fact that the guy who made those made those recordings, a former colleague of ours, Val Brooks, but I mentioned, who turned against us to the FBI in order to get help with the child. custody case.

I have no way of knowing if his unusual death and in the I have no way of knowing if my book released in January that they are very well familiar with. I don't know if that's going to scare them out further or the fact that there's a screenplay. But bottom line is I've been in the UK. I've been splitting my time between London, where my girlfriend. and I have a canal boat that we live in and her mother's house here in

Wormmouth. So bottom line is that the FBI wants another fight and they've got one. So what would happen if you came to the U.S. right now? And would anything happen if you landed in the U.S. tomorrow? Would you be in trouble immediately? What would have, what do you think would happen? It seemed from what happened with last year, with the whole immigration, with the house, home office and some of the, also some of the doctor, we later got from the police in which they referred to the quote political elements unquote of my case when I was at the station and a few other things that at least as of last year I would have been I would have been escorted on a plane back to the U.S. from that immigration center to an airport and I would probably have been arrested right there by FBI agents waiting for me. But as it happens, I was right before they were able to put me on a plane. We were able to declare asylum.

My girlfriend, Sylvia Mann, who's an activist and has been involved in this stuff before, managed to get ITN, a major London law firm to get their top asylum lawyer, who also specializes along with other legal entities I'm working with in national security law, journalism law and so forth, got them involved. had to let me out. And so basically the odds are now less that where I return to the U.S., I'll be arrested because I feel like they know, they know from experience from the time they had me had me in prison facing 105 years and then tried to give me to cooperate and threaten to indict my mom. And I said, go ahead, indict my mom. And then they tried to get me to plead one of these accounts

of linking to documents that would have been very dangerous as a precedence for other journalists research they know how i play this uh and they know that you know uh there's enough documentation from the past that would make anyone involved any fbi agent involved any doj official doj official involved uh it would make it there would be an opportunity cost for anyone involved in another illicit prosecution of either me or anyone anyone around me uh not not the fbi not the doj individual agents uh you know we'll have we'll we'll think hard upon whether or not it's worth it to them to carry out whatever instructions they're getting from higher up. I'll put it that way.

So actually, they might try to arrest me. I've seen them do dumb shit before. I've seen the UK, you know, screw up just in the last a year and a half. I've seen them strobes and things that they could have easily handled more effectively. But I'm not going back to the U.S. to give a bit of try. I'm just going to see what happens from here. I do have this asylum case ongoing, and this is the perfect opportunity for me. Between that and the book release and some other projects, we have some things that will be launching in January and coming out,

it's going to be increasingly difficult for any, any governments to come after me unless they have a really strong case involving, you know, really clear evidence. And they've never had that before. I don't see them having that in the future. So I think it would be good, this would be a good time for us to rewind a little bit. And just explain for the audience who is not familiar with you and your story. What is your background and how did you get started down this path? So I was a been a journalist and freelancer since I was 17, 18, and started out doing a lot of nonsense, copyright. I mean, anything I could to make money writing, you know, music reviews, women's shoe store,

writeups for America online back in the day, blog. blah, blah, gradually was able to move on to the things I wanted to do, which included humor writing, investigative journalism, started writing for things like The Guardian, Vanity Fair, Huffington Post, skeptic, skeptical inquirer. I had my first book come out when I was 24, you know, other outlets, got columns, so forth. But by about 2008, I had become, 2009, really, I had become very disenchanted with the press. I had seen it from all angles and I knew enough from what I had seen that it was not up to the task of providing informed consent to the public about even about some of the easy issues, much less the more complex issues. It was something that could be easily played upon. It could be easily conned and had been by any political strategist, you know, who spends 20 minutes thinking about how to do so.

So I was very concerned. I actually had a panic attack in 2007 when they scanned to me. My only panic attack I've ever had. And so 2009, me and Michael Hastings, who's now dead. He was a journalist for Rolling Stone and Newsweek, who he's the one who wrote an article that forced a resignation of General McChrystal in Afghanistan the day after Hastings article came out about McChrystal and the war there. him and I had some talks about how we could what we could do to develop some kind of mechanism to improve the press.

And that's what Project PM eventually came out of. About a year later, early 2010, I wrote an article for Huffington Post about anonymous and about how it's ongoing campaign at that point against the Australian governments, against proposed internet censorship legislation, how it had, by bringing attention to the issue, at the very least, had served as sort of a model, a proof of concept for how emergence, you know, non-institutional, non-states, groups of committed ideological actors could and would gradually become capable of taking on nation-states, in more important and more decisive ways. And then a year later, the very end of 2010, I was recruited by the people within the non-opps server

and an internet relay chat server from which a lot of the things that people hear about heard about back then, you know, the, you know, the attacks in defense of WikiLeaks and Assange, the attacks involving Indonesian governments, all the other stuff that happened in the next couple years, most of that was centered in that server, kind of about 80, 90 people and about, I would say,

a dozen people who were consistently in charge. One of those became me. So it wasn't brought in because Tunisian Revolution had begun. There were members, people involved in Tunisian Revolution, both in the country of Tunisia and Tunisian exiles in Germany and UK, who were in this group. And then there was the rest of us. and we were able to, first of all, bring attention in the West to the fact that the revolution was occurring,

because prior to January 1st, there was zero, zero articles, zero knowledge, that there was anything going on in Tunisia or that it would matter. We were able to, with Michael Hastings' help, make sure that the press understood this correctly and did not view it incorrectly as a fundamentalist Islamic revolution, but that this was an actual secular democratic revolution by which democracy could be achieved. And then some of the hackers and some of the other specialists there, we were able to provide other means of assistance to the revolutionaries in Tunisia. And within about two weeks, one of the main guys in there, Slim Amanu.

He's known as Slim 404 on Twitter. Generally, he is a incredible person. He was arrested for several days by the Tunisian authorities under the bin Ali regime. And then a few days later, he was released around the time that bin Ali fled the country. And then a few weeks later, he joined the provisional government in Tunisia, the democratic government, and then later resigned over a protest or for something. But short version was that with the Tunisians and the other allies brought in from around the world to counter the Tunisian authorities, to,

engaged in cyber attacks against the Tunisian police police apparatus and to buy other forms of assistance. That was a proof of concept right there. It showed that, yeah, a lot could be done. If we have the right people, just like the CIA, just like anything else, if we have the right people and we're working together properly and we have, and if we're willing to do, if we're willing to risk whatever to do it, then we can oftentimes do it. And that's where the Arab Spring came from. It wasn't a successful in other countries, of course, but it did lead to, you know, Morocco, for instance, King of Morocco, you know, getting scared and providing some new reforms, some new rights, people there. It helped in many ways. Anyway, from there on, we've, about a month after this,

this is February 2011, we discovered there's a Financial Times article that came out in which a former Navy intelligence figure and longtime intelligence contractor named Aaron Barr bragged about having infiltrated the non-op server and identified our leaders and so forth. And the next day, several of the hackers, they told me they were about to do, they're about to go in to his company, take over his servers, steal all their documents, get his notes on us and everything else. And so I got ready for the deal with the press on that. And from that, that that's how we discovered that, H.B. Gary, Palantir, end game systems, and Barrackle of these four companies had been set up with the help of the Obama DOJ to provide what amounted to a clandestine

Black Ops service to private entities, like for instance, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and Bank of America. So that's the team theme of scandal. People want to look at the team of the scandal. They'll be able to get a better sent. This was a thing that was in the news for about a month. Every major outlet covered it. Congress started to investigate. all this and then that investigation was shut down oddly enough by republican a committee chairman

which is amazing which is interesting because this was a scandal that involved again the obama doj uh you know it's very unusual for a republican to want to shut down an investigation and something like that that was a real scandal unlike the vast and furious stuff and a few others that was a real scandal the reason they shut it down is because this is a bipartisan issue uh the the intermixing of the misuse of intelligence agencies. All these things were bipartisan. There are very few people in Congress or the Senate or, you know, any administration, from Obama to Trump to Biden, who have any real problem with these things occurring.

It's the bipartisan consensus. So, anyway, I went to prison. So what you're talking about is private, intelligence contractors. Often in league, yes, often in league with their counterparts at the NSA, DOJ, FBI, and so forth, as they were in this case and as they have in other cases. And so some of the things I want to investigate involve private intelligence contractors, but creating products for clients in the Pentagon, in the CIA, or Kingdom of Bahrain,

or, you know, kingdom of Saudi Arabia, other illicit dictatorships, and everybody just winking at it. everybody letting it happen more of the point i'm talking about disinformation uh technologies uh technologies that were being uh being developed to that point that later on became very decisive and have still been decisive in helping to destroy the ability of the public to really understand what's going on at a good point i mean social networking bots the mass proliferation of AI supported uh fake people online uh by which to uh you know and everyone's heard of the simple versions of this, the Russian troll bots and all that, you know, that's,

as well as Saudi Arabia. Yeah, and that's cheap off the shelf stuff. And it was actually used a lot more in Latin America before it was using the U.S. These Twitter bots that just go and help to create, you know, the illusion of consensus, some of the early research. Anyway, so without getting into, you know, these specifics, we over the next year and a half, me and my team in coordination with some other journalists, some sometimes. times with me writing in the Guardian, sometimes with me writing just publicly putting stuff out,

we came across a lot of things that we weren't supposed to, that the public was not supposed to know about. And to some extent, the press paid attention, to some extent they forgot pretty quickly. And the FBI was within a few weeks of our first discoveries of these DOJ-associated, illicit programs to target journalists, to target WikiLeaks, to target labor unions, to target us, using criminal methods that would be crimes if we did them. Within a few weeks, the FBI had acquired a secret grand jury investigation against me, secret grand jury warrants to see all my communications, blah, blah, and started deploying some not-so-secretters and assets that went after me and my family,

loved ones, all other volunteers, exposed us in some cases to extreme danger from other parties. For instance, the Zetas drug cartel, which Anonymous was up against in October of 2011. Yeah, I see the expression on your face. Why were they up against the Zeta drug cartel? In about October or November, October 2011, a member of a non-Barracruz, which was a, you know, sort of a cell of active anonymous movement. participants was kidnapped by the Zetas. There's a lot we don't know about specifics. It may have been a random thing.

It probably was. It had only to do with him being anonymous. He was held for ransom. This is one of the things that Zetas do was aside from drug running or used to do or of their capabilities. Anyway, so the non-Varacruz people begin, you know, they ask for some assistance on this. What they wanted to do was somewhat controversial among some of the American anans. What they wanted to do was make known to the Zetas that if this guy is not released within a certain number of days,

that Anandar Cruz is going to release the names of 75 Zetas-affiliated police officers, cab drivers, and so forth. The kind of people that help the Zetas, you know, cover their tracks, transport stuff, engaging kidnapping, killings. And if, and, you know, had they done that, there were, especially at that time in Mexico, there's a lot of groups that are very well-armed. and trained, not the police, not the military, that make it a point to execute such people. And because this was, you know, this was a war. This, this, this whole operation was very popular in Mexico. It was less popular among some of the, some of the duchy, you know, little, some of the hacker swords and some of the, you know, people with no skin in the game, who started objecting to

it. It started, like, attacking Don Barakruz for this because, you know, for, because I thought it was unsafe or whatever. And so I stepped up and kind of became the face of that by because by explaining this to the press and the other nons and saying, hey, it's not your fucking business how these Mexican or nons handle the kidnapping and one of their own or handled the Zeta cartel. None of you have any, and none of you know anything about the cartels. You never lived in Mexico, whereas I have and my family comes from the border and all that. But more of the point, these Mexicans live in Mexico. They deal with these cartels.

they're going to do this and and the reporters and the non you know participants in the u.s and elsewhere were objecting should reconsider or shut the fuck up anyway so as often happens the press decided that i was in charge of his entire operation and there's a bunch of articles if you look at us from mainstream outlets the atlantic whatever else you know you know proposing that maybe i'm to get my head cut off in Dallas texas anyway in that period some of the people that were involved with H.B. Gary, you know, in the FBI and so forth, did such things as posting my mom's address online on Twitter and tagging the Zetas in them. Yeah. This is one of the things that I later, that later drove me to,

where did they post this stuff? Where were they, they would, these people that were within these, these companies and within the FBI docks to your mom on Twitter. Yep, including Aaron Barr, using the name Narganon. Aaron Barr was the CEO of HB Gary, one of the company, the first company we investigated. Tom Ryan, another guy who was involved with another FBI cooperator and asset, who, anyway, yes, several of them and yeah, posted this and did not, of course, did not get kicked off Twitter, did not, you know, there was no repercussions for them. Yeah, and that's kind of how this stuff goes.

And that's at least of it. You know, there's, there are, you can still find hundreds and hundreds of threats against me by FBI cooperators that are just sitting on Twitter that, you know, I've never gotten anyone in trouble. This is the same thing for other people who are very active in, in exposing intelligence operations, Palitzer, Peter Thiel, his, his network. We all got the same treatment. And some of us fare better than others. Some of us end up dead. You know, some of us live to find another day. So once your mom got doxed on Twitter,

that's what led to you making that video that you posted, I believe, on YouTube. No, no, no. What that led to me was calling her and asking her to leave the house and then calling up and then calling actually local police and saying, hey, I normally wouldn't call you guys, but some of your buddies in the fucking FBI have just done this

I want you to do a patrol line that block because if anything happens with my mom. Anyway, no, I didn't want to threaten the FBI until much later. So in March 2012, I was raided by the FBI at my mom's house. They come to my apartment first. I had left the previous day to go to my mom's house knowing they were coming. I had a tip. And so they came to my mom's house without a warrant, ask to speak to me. I said, come on the backyard.

Let's talk. And they asked me if I wanted to get them any laptops. And I said, no, I really don't want to give me any laptops. And so on and so forth. they left. A few hours later, they came back with a warrant, searched my mom's house, detained her downstairs. And then a few days later, the DOJ prosecutor told me through my lawyer that now my mom was going to be prosecuted as well for obstruction of justice. My mom urged me not to say anything publicly, and I didn't for that time. But over the next few months, I found more and more elements of how the FBI

and certain of their friendly parties in the press, friendly reporters, some of whom work with H.B. Gary, Stratford, the FBI itself, API cooperators, the way they had shaped things up in order to try to discredit me, discredited our research, just read it at Aaron Schwartz's research, discredit the research that dozens of us had done over the last year, Palantir and so forth. And some of the things, I caught the FBI doing more things and being involved, more things. And I knew if I just if I just and I tried my best to go to reporters and other comrades and say,

hey, look, this stuff's going to happen to me. I'm going to go to prison. You know, please be in a position to make sure these things about Palantor and Boozell and Hamilton and the NSA that they get out no matter what. You know, as I said, that's a green greenwald. The last communication we ever had, you know, at that point until years later. And nothing came out of it. And, And so finally in September, I made a video saying, look, here's the things we've caught Aaron Barr doing. Here's the things we've caught the other FBI assets doing to me, to my mother, to our colleagues. Here's what we've caught them planning to do to the families of labor union leaders that they were going after. I mean, Aaron Barr was in their proposals, the Pallanter and these other companies created to show Bank of America and Chamber of Commerce.

They were going to go after, they were going to investigate the children. and families of their targets, labor union leaders, journalists, whoever. And in fact, had started doing so in these documents. So what I said was, since apparently that's all legal,

I'm going to see if it's legal when I do it. So I'm going to look into the family of this FBI agent who's threatening my mom. And we'll find out if there's a double standard here. And of course there was because I was hit by a SWAT team later that evening. And then brought in, charged with with threatening a federal agent. So I had also said that I would,

I would shoot any other FBI agency came to my mom's house or at my house or anyone else I know. At the time, I meant it, I mean, I had nothing, as far as I started nothing to lose. I know, I know what it means to be subject to an investigation by the, investigation by the FBI and DOJ in cooperation with major banks and things like Pallencer. and so I was more than happy to go out in a place of gunfire if you need be.

Luckily, I had no weapons in the house at the time. They were at my dad's house. And so otherwise it could have been more serious. Anyway, so they came and hit me. The squad team busted in, full SWAT team brought me in. I was charged with threatening a federal agents. And then a few months later charged with the thing they had come up with to justify the original investigation, which was copying and pasting a link.

that had been posted in the non-op's chat server, posted by what turned out to be Jeremy Hammond, one of the hackers involved in the Stratford, a hack, me copying that link he had posted and pasting it into my chat room for Project PM for our researchers, and then asking, Jeremy, you know, what's in these? And him responding, oh, C&C, blah, blah,

what turns to be credit cards. He had posted the credit card information for subscribers of Stratford. I never used credit card. as you know anyone else in my group the same link had been posted publicly and that the DOJ knew it's why they anyway but i was now facing 22 years on that mandatory minimum 11 counts of aggravated identity theft for copying and pasting that link that i you know that it was one of hundreds of links i copied and pasted the first one that involved credit card numbers i was charged with that and then they charged me with uh oh obstruction obstruction of justice as well

along with my mom. And then they made me an offer through my lawyers. They said, you know, if you cooperate, you know, we go to plea deal. And I told my lawyer no. A few months later, they charged my mom with obstruction of justice. Then they made me their next final offer, which was if I pleaded just one of those 11 counts of obstruction of interference, sorry, of copying and pasting a link, you know, I could get out right then. I already, at that point, I already done two years in jail waiting trial. And I said no. And the reason I said no is, is because had I pled a single one of those charges, the precedent established would have

allowed the DOJ to prosecute any researcher, journalist, or other regular civilian that they found to be, you know, dangerous, simply for copying and pasting or accessing a file that ended up containing credit card numbers, which, you know, when you go through huge amounts of files every day, as we've been doing for a year and a half, sometimes going to happen. Later on, of course, I learned. No, I was going to say, didn't they originally try to chart, like put you in for over 100 years or something? I was based 105 years total. If you stacked up all the, the, there was 17 charges altogether.

There was 11 counts of interference of, uh, aggravated identity theft. There was the one count of threatening a federal agent. There was another count of, uh, conspiracy to release. protected information about a federal agent and then a obstruction of justice and i think something else and of course they had to drop they ended up having to drop after two and a half years uh the day after the electronic freedom foundation uh and our were not just you know dangerous but also didn't make any sense because the the the aggravated identity theft charge apply applies to uh stealing government issued i you know on those grounds and also they were and they had by this

point that the press thanks to Kevin Gallagher, the guy who helped to run my legal defense, had helps to turn the tides to get to get the press to remember what it was that I've been, why they've been targeted me to begin with, because a lot of them have been confused by that point. And so by that time, 2013, 2014, I had become a cause celebrity. I've become a hero again. Even among outlets that had a couple years later, a couple years prior, accused me of being a fraud, of being a charlatan, accused me of making up the Zetas thing. I mean, yeah, again, I've seen, and that's why the press itself, the press dynamics are the thing that since then have most, are most compelling to me, and the thing that me and others who have watched this happen feel that most needs to be solved. We can risk our lives, even die in the case of Aaron Schwartz.

The press or refrains from actively discrediting us on behalf of, you know, because they've gotten bad information knowingly or unknowingly from the state. Unless they can act like the press is supposed to act, none of it matters. No one's going to know. You see this over and over again with the strap for documents. There's five million strap for emails, you know, that went to WikiLeaks. and just the first wave of the discoveries of within those emails involved serious malfeasance

such as Dow Chemical hiring Stratford to spy on the victims of the Bhopal incidents in the 80s where one of Dow Chemicals plants blew up and killed thousands of people and maimed and sickened tens of thousands of others. Stratford, the company I went down over was that I owe $800,000 to in restitution was spying on that group that was trying to, you know,

compel Dalai Jones to pay some restitution, probably like $40 each to remaining Indians. That's just one of many things we came across. So what I'm saying is that in the press, rather, for the most part, particularly certain individuals like Adrian Chin, Joseph Min, Sam Biddle, John Cook, people who would go on to The Intercept and become editors there and writers there, just like I would. There was a number of people who, who, because they wrote the first pieces putting out this information,

those articles were then taken as trustworthy by other larger outlets, New York Times, Atlantic, whatever. And so what we, what we, what I came to learn of what I'm able to document now is that all it takes is a few, let's say, on the take for, or FBI-line journalists or intelligence community-aligned journalists to create a narrative that will make, that it will ensure that the actual meat, the content, the the actual issues that affect everyone that we put out. All these are a few of them to ensure that a large portion of the press either ignores it or discredits it. And that's what happened over and over again. And it's happened with other whistleblowers. And it'll keep happening until such time as the people in question, journalists to do that, are given a reason not to do it.

And so that's kind of what a lot of our projects, long-term projects, I'm about 10 years, starting 10 years ago, the things that'll come to fruition in January, that will be the start of this. That'll be the start of the new era. which reporters are going to want to start getting things right. And they're definitely not going to get things. They're definitely not going to get caught, let's say colluding with Stratfer or

or Pallens or H.B. Gary or the FBI. That's a weird thing because it's a big thing you see now, I mean, especially in the U.S. I don't know. I'm not familiar with the U.K., the press in the UK. But I mean, obviously right now, I think a lot of people are pretty aware of the alignment with companies like CNN and MS. NBC being aligned with and hiring all kinds of ex-Penegon officials, ex-CIA operatives, FBI operatives, and all these people using them and reporting on direct reports from the

Pentagon without even trying to verify anything. And that's a lot of... Yeah, that's a big thing all over the, I mean, all of the U.S. and the UK. I mean, it's Dallas Morning News does it, on New York Times, does it? uh, Wall Street Journal does it. Um, obviously Fox News does it.

Um, MSNBC has open, you know, has XCI agents, you know, all that not, not the good kind that actually help and reveal stuff. Yeah,

I did like John, John Carriaco. Um, but, uh, the kind that are still, you know, still aligned to that sort of centrist,

fucking, uh, you know, sort of centrist bipartisan, uh, you know, pro, status quo,

uh, deal. Yeah. I mean, MSC is one of the worst winners. But yeah, every single single, outlet, major outlet is under, to some degree or another, is manipulated sometimes, you know,

knowingly by elements of the intelligence community or other intelligence agencies abroad or companies, you know, people like Peter Peter Thiel, Elon Musk, so forth. This has been going on. I mean, it's always been a thing. I mean, you know, you remember the first godfather movie, you know, where, you know, the mob could buy off the police, or buy off reporters and friendly reporters, you know, this has always been a thing. I think it's more of a thing now than it was, say, 30, I would say 25 years ago. And worse, we have less journalists who are competent or courageous than we did 25 years ago. We've got a lot of millennial types who went to Columbia University, fucking grew up in,

grew up in Connecticut over the fuck, and they go straight to New York Times, you know, and they know shit about shit and and they think they're not and again they did they consider themselves experts you've got a lot people who use the term conspiracy theory without thinking about what that means uh and just announcing prima faci certain things as conspiracy theories and where and then of course engaging in what they would otherwise term conspiracy theories if those things align with their ideological interests or with what they think is the case you have a lot of cowards you know who who even knows being aware of certain things within within Hollywood or press, you know, have been caught, thankfully, suppressing that information. You know, this includes my former editors at Vanity Fair, who killed two of my stories for them

because the stories were about friends of fucking Raden Carter, the publisher there. Reagan Carter, same guy who helped protect Epstein for so many years. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People should look up Graydon Carter, Epstein, because one of the former, one of the, there's a woman. I can't remember her name now.

I think I've talked to her once. She would try to do a piece on Epstein for Vanity Fair. And Reagan Carter, make sure that didn't happen. Again, this is all, this is stuff that in many cases have been documented. It gets lost in the fog, lost in the strum. But so one of the things that we are trying to do in terms of some of the projects we're putting out, you know, the large compilations of raw materials, recordings, emails, screenshots, stolen documents, whatever. However, just like with Project PM, which scared the government so much, it had to fucking come after it, let me come after me in ways that embarrassed a lot of DOJ officials.

This project would do the same with the press. And, yeah, and all these things that are already known, already public, you know, made public by others, not me, those will help, those will be kind of compiled in there with entries for every single reporter and editor that we have stuff on. And then we have the vast amount of material that I have, and that a few of my colleagues have because we've been dealing with the press. We're part of the press.

We've been interviewed by the press, good sources for the press, been written about by the press. And when you're doing, we do four years in prison and the press is writing about your case and you. It's very easy to find to find errors because it's about you, you know. You're the expert. And you have the documentation. And so that made it a lot easier for me, my case and the coverage of me before and after to find, you know, errors. and to find sometimes the same reporters for providing two different contradictory versions of the same story

or to find an outlet like in New York Times, you know, claiming in 2011 that maybe I made up a kidnapping in Mexico and then three years later in an op-ed New York Times compared me to Socrates. Or in New York Times, you know, correctly detailing 2011, some of the things we found Pallens are doing. And then another New York Times reporter three years later, writing its real weird demonstrably false pro palancer article and then a few months later getting

hired by Google where he's now paid more. It just, it goes on and on. And it's, it's something that, you know, the press, you know, does not regulate itself very well. It doesn't have any, there's no negative feedback. There's no, there's no reason, pragmatically for a reporter to be honest, courageous, to hold his colleagues to account for their, for their mistakes and errors. And so we're going to create that mechanism. And that will be a great help to the press, I'm sure. What is your, I'm curious, what are your thoughts on the whole, the whole Epstein thing, the whole conspiracy revolving him and the French guy who just apparently killed himself in prison a couple months ago,

or maybe it was less than a couple months ago. I don't know how close to you followed that, but that's something that I noticed, especially during the trial of Geelaine Maxwell, is that there was so little coverage of it, whether it be on Twitter or anywhere else. There was just all these smaller, more irrelevant headlines popping up that were sort of bearing the whole Geylane thing. Yes. What is your take on that on that whole situation? One of my favorite colleagues that I've dealt with on some things a few years ago, Kevin Hall, he's one of the guys at the Miami Herald Tribune or so the Miami Herald Tribune that forced the Epstein thing back into the public eye number of years ago, in 2016, 2017.

He's one of the ones who wrote this big article that essentially forced a DOJ. to go back after Epstein, even though they didn't want to. And so I have, I've had an interest in it for quite a while, especially because, I mean, so I wrote a tweet back in 2017. You know what, no, my, I'm going to skip, I'm skip off bragging. I'll just say I predicted some of this stuff coming about. But basically, the Epstein thing is the exact sort of thing that if you were to say to some porters, to some average reporters, hey, I think there's a billionaire who he's hanging out with like very powerful people like Trump and Clinton and with like, you know, major figures who've done for years

and he has an island and he, you know, seems to have a predilection for young girls and was convicted, in fact, for having sex an underage girl a number of years ago and hangs out with Prince Andrew and all these things. And maybe there's something there. That's the kind of thing, you know, like, oh, that's conspiracy theory because it involves powerful people engaging in pedophilia. There's other reporters who would be reluctance to go into it or not even acknowledge it because they support either Clinton or Trump, both of whom are on that damn plane at different times. There's other reporters who just wouldn't understand why that's an issue. And there's a lot of reporters who, even if they did understand and say, oh, yeah, wow, you're right, this is a bill of thing. They would be reluctance to be the ones going out and saying, oh, billionaire pedophile network involving intelligence community and blackmail because that sounds.

silly to the average civilian who's no shit about shit. It sounds silly to other journalists and reporters who think that anything, you know, who think they just know it all, who have it all have to have the world figured out. And so it was tremendous. It was great this article came out because it forced the DOJ to do this, this and this. And then, of course, the same press that had, you know, outside the Miami Herald Tribune, outside these few reporters that I deal with and who are actually courageous and competent. Yeah, they fucked the whole thing up. They they, you know, Epstein was convicted. He's put in jail. He's found dead.

Immediately, you have the same outlets that allowed this shit to happen. Or in some cases, like Vanity Fair helped to cover up like Epstein or other outlets that covered up, you know, the one of the two brothers and fucking in Hollywood that started the Me Too movement, you know, you have the same outlets referring to the idea that maybe he didn't kill himself as a conspiracy theory, you know. And then, of course, later you have documents coming out, autopsies and all that. No, it's not a, it's not a silly, that happens all the time. And it's not a silly theory to want to look into.

It's not, there's nothing, it is in fact a journalist's duty, if they're interested in this case, and they want to write about it to explore the idea that maybe Epstein was killed, not just because another cellmate wanted him dead, but because a lot of powerful people wanted him dead. Because a lot of powerful people had been on his fucking island and on his plan. fucking little girls probably probably being taped probably for a purpose

involving let's say a combination of US and Israeli intelligence in order to blackmail and control those people there's a number of individuals out there who would would find that to be not worth investigating even though a lot of portions of it have come out

since then like there's we have we have there's tons tons of on the record people from intelligence, state and all that. There's tons of points to the conclusion that among me and my colleagues, I want to say my colleagues talking about the people that I work with privately in secure groups and so forth, who are journalists, academics, explosive lowers, ex-intelligence, blah, blah,

we can all talk about like these things without having civilians in the way being like, oh, that's, you know, I've heard Alex Jones said something about that. I mean, it's wrong, like that kind of shit, you know. So, no, it's pretty fucking obvious. that Epstein, you know, even aside from how he got all his money, was involved in a effort to a successful effort, you know, for a while, no doubt, to compromise powerful individuals. That's what the Russians have been doing for years, what the U.S. has been doing for years.

It's what sometimes I do for years, just not using, not involving pedophilia little girls. you know uh well well actually actually i should take that back uh back in 2007 2008 you know just like with the you know you know you know the show a perverted justice or uh or or a catch a predator yes yeah well there's a lot of us doing stuff like that back then uh some of us associate with sacri dramatica where we you know and people still do it they go they go they pretend to be you know um young girls and all that and as a proof of concept as a test back in 2007 uh i did this and uh and then tricked the the perp the the the pedophile into calling my number which turned out to be the number of the local brooklyn new york police station and then i told them look you've just called that number they've got that on file i can send this i can send this to them right now unless you do what i tell you to do is say i like mud kips which was a meme four-chan meme um so now had i been more at that point more interested in uh wait wait wait wait what what made you want to do that again, this was a test, proof of concept.

A proof of concept? Yes. Okay. So you basically, you bade a pedophile in a meeting up with you. He thought you were an underage girl, right? Right. And you met up with him face to face and you fit and you. No, no, no, no.

No, no. No, no. No, I didn't make me face face. No one. Oh, okay. I told him, okay, yeah, do you want to call me? And the number. That police station knows it got that call from that number at that time.

And the conversation is long showing that time. I now have this guy's life in my hands because I could sit at the police station and he's going down. So alternatively, if I were, say, you know, someone who wanted to build up a slave army of pedophiles in order to achieve certain ends, I could say, now here's what you have to do. You have to do the same thing I just did to you, the three other people. Wow. And then tell each one of them to do other people. And then down the line, when I'm ready for you to do your actual work, I'll provide instructions, you know, relay them. And then, you know, for instance, if they think I'm bluffing, I wouldn't go into, there are ways to, you know, to secure that.

So anyway, so this is actually in my book. I write about this, this whole concept. As I managed to illustrate that, you know, there is more under heaven and earth than it's dreamt of in your philosophy, you know. Wow. There are people that or, you know, Rockefellers or Pentagon or private companies, Peter Thiel, Elon Musk, other activists have known, who think differently than the average person and who have different motivations and different agendas. Some of us like me wants to expose powerful people and counter them and bring them down. You know, the other side, they want to do something else. They want to rule the world under a global, you know, kleptocracy of technocrats, you know, led by Peter Thiel and Elon Musk.

What's your take on Elon Musk? What do you think his motivations are? What do you think his primary motivations are? Well, he's mentally, he's kind of like the other PayPal Mafia, as they call themselves in private. I mean, he's a goofy-ass, you know, technical guy with autism of some sort. And with all due respect to autistic people, there are forms of it, especially among a tech crowd, hackers I've dealt with, for instance. that make it very difficult for them to understand, that give them to certain blind spots.

Just like I have certain blind spots because of my, whatever my mental condition is. I have no idea what the fuck wrong with me, but it's on autism. But anyway, Elon Musk, it falls into a certain pattern. As his motivations, he wants,

to some extent he wants, what a lot of people want, he wants to be recognized, he wants to be admired, he wants to have a degree of control. And I haven't actually concentrated on him much until recently because I've been so focused on his former partner, Peter Thiel.

Now I'm interested in him because I always forget that they were, I always forget that they were partners. Everyone does him and Pierre Omidyar, Pierre Omidyar started the intercept, which I wrote for from prison. That's where I won my national magazine awards for, not realizing at that time that Omadiar was someone who a couple years before starting the intercept had been involved in the intelligence community.

And it expressed publicly his, his belief that whistleblower. should be our traders. He managed to, nonetheless start the Intercept with $500 billion. He managed to get Greenwald involved. Glenn Greenwald brought in Weave, my old

enemy from back in the day, the neo-Nazi who went on to run a Dilley stormer. And then we went to work not just for Omen D.R., but also for Peter Thiel at his, later at his company, Clearview, UAI, which does massive facial surveillance. And we lawyer, Tor Eklund, who unfortunately I'm responsible for bringing in because I brought in

his friend Jay Leatherman, another lawyer to help protect PayPal 14. Tor Eklund became chief counsel for Peter Thiel's Clearview AI, the surveillance company. And Tor Eklund, you know, that's another person who will eventually go down for that. Anyway, Elon Musk, because he's lost $70 billion in capital over the last couple months by Tesla cars, and because his attempt to buy Twitter, created more scrutiny into his background, so forth, his associations, he's now going to be more attached to Peter Thiel and is expressing more of Peter Thiel's views. he's going to need Peter Tillmore. And so Sorry to interrupt.

You think that has anything to do with like the amazing amount of just fiery fury fury he's getting from the like hardcore left wing on Twitter? Or in general. Even before he got whatever this, I mean, the fury, I mean, everyone gets fucking fucked up with all Twitter.

If you're a major prominent billionaire, you're going to get fiery fury. I mean, he didn't go to prison. He didn't have his mom fucking like outed to the Zetas. Like, I don't know what the fuck, you know. No, he's been involved Peter Thiel years ago, just like Pierrot Mityar was.

But don't you think that what I'm getting at is like isn't that kind of just like, isn't that natural human instinct when you start to get just because he's trying to go by Twitter and because he is advocating to make it more of a free speech centered platform and now for some reason free speech is a right wing thing. I always thought it was a left wing thing. But now because he wants to make it, you know, cut down on censorship and cut down on censorship and cut down on fake accounts and bots. For some reason, he's getting attacked by the left and he's being worshipped by the right. So do you think that's, that's,

unfortunately, that's the world we live in where, like, everything is something else. Like, it's like, you know, so Twitter as it stands in the last five, six years has been, I mean,

one of my biggest enemies, one of the things I've been most concerned about. So, I mean, in, in theory, I'm happy to see some billionaire come in there and take it over and fucking, and, and, uh,

and get rid of like, you know, for instance, you know, for instance, fucking working there and using it, you know, to go out for dissidents, Twitter. But here's the thing. Twitter, I haven't, I had the world record for bands on Twitter, a permanent band.

Really? Yeah, and there's some articles in the Daily Dot about that. Just look at Barrett Brown Twitter, you'll find some articles. I was, and every single one of my bands, which started in 2017, I don't everyone, the majority, three or four of them involved stuff I put out on Palantor and other people close to Peter Thiel. every single one of those bands. And they were reversed. All of them, except the last one, were reversed because other press spoke up, other activists spoke up, and Twitter ended up each time saying,

oh, it was a mistake, blah, blah, you know. And sure, the reports. So Elon Musk and Peter Thiel and Pierre Omidyar, again, who I actually worked for from prison writing these columns, you know, around the time that the intercept and its reporters, turned, essentially turned in reality winner. All three, none of those people are really interested in free speech. I've seen this because they've gone out, who they've gone after.

So Elon Musk, when he goes in, he's not, what he's not, he's not going to establish a free speech zone. What he's going to do is establish what he claims to be a free speech zone. and to the extent to actually does, if you actually do that, it's going to be, Twitter's going to have all these difficulties, the same difficulties that anyone has

when you're curating a big environment, anyone can say anything, you know, it's going to be a difficult job, even for a person who, you know, is worthwhile and respectable, and it has a clear head and is transparent. Elon Musk is none of those things.

So him, him and Peter Thiel, So Peter Teal is meanwhile, created Rumbler, you know. And the odds that Peter Thiel and Elon Musk didn't have some conversations in the last six months a year about Elon Musk buying Twitter are about, there's 0%.

So what this means is that the person who continues to gain control over our data, Peter Thiel, at the NHS, UN Refugeeepage Program, predictive policing, you know, works at the CIA, FBI, all these things. Him and his friend Elon Musk,

cornering the market, helping to corner the market on social media. I mean, look, look, Peter Thiel was at Facebook, you know, until he left a few months ago. He didn't help to grab a great speech speech zone there either, and Elon Musk's fuck wasn't. Facebook's another thing I got banned from about a year and a half ago after I posted information about my former prosecutor and her involvement in racist pornography.

ban for with no express reason. And that's at least of it. Facebook also allowed a armed ex-felon in Dallas to send about 40 or 50 rape and death threats to my girlfriend at the time from his account under his own name while the police in Dallas and the FBI in Dallas protected him because I had gone after the police in Dallas and so forth. If people look up Barrett Brown bomb threat, they can find all about that. Anyway, so what I'm saying is not a single one of these people has any record. they've all been involved in intelligence community. They've all been involved, and some of the worst aspects of it.

Has Elon been proven to be involved in the intelligence community other than being affiliated with Peter Thiel? That's something I can't go into publicly, simply for the reason that yet, simply the reason that there's my asylum case and some other things are going on require that certain parties not be aware of what we have. I'll put it that way. But him being,

him being a partner in Peter Deal for me is enough. So, I mean, the answer to these questions are is it's done publicly. Yeah. And that everyone else around them should be debriefed by force until we know exactly how much else they've done in the last six, six, seven years. In terms of trying to destroy the public's ability to know what's going on. Something that Palantor has been caught doing several times under Peter Deals, rip. This thing I've said before, I'll keep tying it. And it's not Republican or Democrat issue.

You think they need to like literally, that seems a little extreme. I'm an extremist. I'm from Texas. I'm from Texas. We, we have excuses every day. We say, we say this. It's a four years in federal prison where we say this. You know. Yeah, but isn't Elon also doing a lot of good things for the world? I mean, as far as like creating sustainable cars and sending getting people, you know,

creating an interplanetary, making us interplanetary, going to Mars, doing all this stuff. Those things will happen without Elon Musk being around to do them. I mean, with space program, Elon Musk, and it's right that he's making rocket ships and so forth. But if at the same time he's colluding with and supporting and giving aid and comfort to his close partners, who meanwhile we've caught over and over again, ensuring that this new wonderful space-based civilization of ours is under their control. and involves a heavy use of disinformation methodologies, uh,

that's what we've caught them engaged in. Then, uh, no, those rockets just you'd be shut the fuck down. You know, we can, we can,

we can have someone else step in and take over Tesla motor. I mean, other people can make electric, electric cars. Uh, again, I just don't think that, number one,

I don't think Elon Musk is capable of being the, the person he wants, he aspires to be. I mean, and the stockholders seem to agree because he lost $70 billion in capital at Tesla motors in the last few months. I think he's very much like other people I've dealt with much more in person. He is someone who thinks that because they're very,

they're particularly good at some technical thing or business or whatever, that they are also thus natural philosopher kings. I've seen that over and over again. I keep saying it. So, I mean, he could be doing kinds of great car, doing great through humanity. He could build, he could create the Volkswagen, the people's car like Hitler did. Or like Stalin, he could help make sure the Russian peculaks know how to read while also killing him.

He could be like Winston Churchill and help win World War II while also insisting that Britain keeps its imperial empire. He could be like, you know, he could be like Jared of Subway who would encourage people to eat, eat well and lose weight and is also, you can do all kinds of things. again, it doesn't change the fact that he's a target for reasons that unlike with Peter Thiel and Omidyar, again, aside from what I've told you in terms of the association with them in terms of what that I can't go into, but he is a part of that network, the PayPal Mafia. Again, the PayPal Mafia is in a term that I made up. It's a term I first heard in a conversation that we've had with one of my fellow people being prosecuted. when we've was deployed by Pierre Omidyar and Peter Thiel to intimidate them into refraining from criticizing Pierre Omidyar after we've got hired by Omidyar and then by Peter Thiel. Elon Musk knows all this stuff. He knows all about it. I mean, his former wife, Rhymes, was dating up until recently my colleague Chelsea Manning. He knows who I am. He knows what I put out. He knows books coming out. Peter, Peter Thiel, you know, is very conversant with this as well. And you know, Peter Thiel's other little guy funds in Jail Rogan, they know who I am. They've used their powers to help suppress some of our information.

And some of their other employees, including we've helped to drive my legal defense guy, Kevin Gallagher, to death last year. And they know that happened too. So, sorry, sorry. Say that what happened again? Say that last part again. So a number of people. So we've, who's been a Peter Thiel employee for years and years and a few other people who are working with. Yeah, we've been to Neon, Andrew Arnheimer. Okay.

We ran daily stormer for a while and works for Clearview AI and who wasn't helping was involved in helping to, to persecute me right before my arrest, 2012. he and some of his associates who are working out working with the U.S., with U.S. intelligence community, and Peter Thiel in the Russia-Ukraine war thing, and who are also who, it's complicated. If you look at Aubrey Coddle, pretend, he's a known FBI, CSIS person, who has been presented by some of these same journalists that we've found work with the FBI, but presented publicly in articles as the founder of anonymous, even though he's, he's not, and even the sources they've used have privately admitted. No, he's not, he was the troll, and he works for the FBI and CSIS,

and he's almost certainly a pedophile. That's, so these people, uh, were involved, uh, in a, shortly before I was arrested on, uh, May, yeah, May 17th, uh, a few days before that, they were involved in in screwing with Kevin Gallagher, the guy who, almost single-handedly created my legal defense and my public defense out of nothing and was a part of Project PM and who has spent much of his last 10 years being pursued by the DOJ and FBI, suing the DOJ back for investigating everyone who donated to my legal defense fund. these people who are all associated with in protecting Peter Thiel and CSIS and CIA and FBI, they were among the last few people to have spoken to Kevin Gallagher publicly in May before he disappeared. He disappeared the day I was arrested in the UK. They were about to be publicly taunting him. And some of those people who were also found to have been privately approaching people around me.

people who work with me in different ways in those in that same time. And then Kevin Gallagher, you know, to disappear for a few weeks. When I got out, we, I noticed, again, he had been, he was absent. He had left all the groups. We couldn't find him. We couldn't, his family didn't know where he was. So we, back on, in, on June 10th, June 11th, I think, I sent someone to a synoderegris scope to a colleague of mine to go to his house where she found him dead.

And we'll never know exactly. What role, you know, we'll never know what happened, especially because some of those involved aren't cooperating yet. But what I'm saying is that, no, Elon and I'm being, I'm being charitable by saying you shouldn't just be. The reason I say that is not for revenge, it's because at some point our civilization has to take back control of its public dialogue. and its ability to not be surveilled,

not be under mass surveillance, not be unsubjected to state and police-controlled masses information protocols. And if that's to happen, then we have to send a clear message to the same people who have tried to make an example out of me and who did make an example out of Aaron Schwartz and Michael Hastings, who blew up in 2013,

and Kevin Gallagher, who's now dead, and a bunch of other people who aren't well known, but we've also not done very well as a function of being involved in clothing near me, like my mother, for instance. We have to make examples out of these people. That's Peter Thiel, Pierre Amadjar, everyone found to be involved.

Elon Musk knows all this stuff. He's had every opportunity in the last 10 years to spend a lot less time on Twitter or fucking, like, posting funny nonsense where the fuck. And a little more time maybe telling his colleagues, hey, maybe you shouldn't be trying to create a what Peter Thiel himself describes as a non-antidemocratic dark enlightenment is the term they use, leptocracy. Dark enlightenment? Is it a term that Peter Thiel used. That's something people should look up.

It's not very well known. That's how Peter Thiel likes it. But he wrote an essay on it. And it's the philosophy is followed by a number of these people. that I've dealt with over the years and have come up against. It's, it's, and it's not, it's not the kind of thing that my grandfathers fought to achieve in World War II. It's not the kind of thing that my, you know, half-brother tried to achieve in the First Iraq War. Not the kind of thing my uncle fought out to achieve in Vietnam.

And it's certainly not the kind of fucking thing that, that the U.S. or any other nation that wants to be democratic can tolerate. It should, it should be dealt with, just like we dealt with Nazism. Again, we have a bunch of German war on people. like Peter Thiel running around denouncing democracy, which is fine. I mean, democracy is flaws and all that. But the alternative is not, it should not be and it will not be a oligarchy run by a bunch of autistic fucking nut jobs who aren't, who consider themselves to be above and beyond the rest of us. But who nonetheless, me and my colleagues keep catching it, keep beating nonetheless. I don't you think Elon Musk would do a way better job

running the country than some of these other idiots that are running the country currently I mean it seems like they all have the same personal motivations they're all in it for money for their own careers not for the right reasons they're not in it for the people I mean Elon Musk sure you could say he's a piece of shit and he's got his it's all for his own personal gain

but wouldn't you say he's the lesser of the two evils oh I think there's many more than two evils I'm not sure if you mean, but the, the, the, the, the, the, the typical politicians, like typical politicians that are in the country. Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people said to say anything about Trump, you know, they said that he was going to be an outsider. He was going to change things and all that.

And, you know, and I guess in some respects he did. But I do not feel that Trump. I mean, number one, Trump was someone who was lied constantly. Oh, I'm, you know, I'm pro-Jul and Assange and whistleblowers, WikiLeaks. Right. Assange fell for that shit. I didn't. And Assange and Assange is now in a bell marsh fucking prison.

having lost a lot of the support from those of us who insist on honesty because Assange tried to make a deal with the Trump kids and was caught doing so, trying to make a deal of Roger Stone was caught doing so. Before that, he tried to make a deal with the Obama DOJ and was caught doing so. So Assange, he's one of these type of people talking about, people who just, you know, they just think, they just, they think that they're better navigators of the geopolitical and espionage sector than they are. They surround themselves with yes men and all that.

And they end up fucked up in the end. like asanj is right now uh and and betray their own principles in the process as to elan musk would he make a better president than biden i mean biden's senile so i was really fucking i hope so right um you know having said that i mean there's just i mean i really i really don't know actually i don't know where do you think assange fucked up what what is your issue what do you think that he overlooked and he overlooked in his whole situation or how he ended up what would you have done differently if you were in his shoes well the my issues with asange are the same issues that a lot of people who were with him from the beginning or very close to them towards the end.

The same reasons they left and in some cases aren't hiding and won't talk about him. Like Sarah Harrison, his former girlfriend and second in command. Who, yeah, who, Brigitte, Jan's daughter, who was even in that one of that movie, the movie they made about him and all that former Icelandic Pirate Party, a member of parliament. She left early on, you know, there's others like myself and Naomi Colvin who are still involved. in his defense, working with his lawyers against the DOJ. But all of us, I think, pretty much agree on what he did wrong. He lied to the public. He lied to his own supporters. He sacrificed people like myself and Jeremy Hammond, which I would have been fine if he had achieved something by it, but he didn't.

He, yeah, he started with the mission of transparency, and that's what we do with transparency. He ended up having his own girlfriend go out and lie on his behalf, Jen Robinson, I mean, not Jim Robinson, Sarah Harrison, she didn't know she was lying, claiming that he had no, no dog in the race in the U.S. presidential election. It was definitely not supporting either side. It was not involved with either side, not working for either side, which turned out to be absolutely false.

And I know a lot of people who, like myself, have been a son supporters. Again, remember, I'm someone who was a sergeant supporter to an extent that I was happy to go to prison on his behalf and kept running in his defense in prison until I got out and started finding out some things and found out that he was one of his tricks of the trade is to say oh he who Sons wants to talk to you about this

and then he doesn't then he doesn't show up you know and then he you know sends Kim.com to come fucking talk to me since soon you know what? People like yeah yeah yeah try to have Kim.com like play me and it didn't work because Kim.com is another one of the same guys He just think he thinks he's, he thinks he thinks he can pull one over on people. He thinks he can pull one over on me.

What was he trying to do to pull one over on you by hoag one by setting it with Kim.com? Well, he first, first he admitted that, uh, that Assange, of course, was, was working on Trump's behalf. On Trump's behalf. Which was, I didn't need him to tell me that. We already had documents knowing that some of which are public, some of which are not, some of which WikiLeaks or Assange himself has, uh, presented little portions of, of, you know, pretend that's all it is, you know, with Roger Stone conversations, then left out the other large portions that made it clear.

It just, again, he fucked up. He decided, he decided to play geopolitics. He decided to play CIA. He decided to lie to the public, uh, instead of doing what our mission was, which was to make the public, uh, give them access to the truth. Uh, and that's, that's why I lost a lot of support and it's why, uh, the DOJ's job became a lot easier. Uh, it's why, uh, it's why, the people who, who, like myself, you know, who essentially were happy to go to 100 years, you know, over this stuff. I mean, strapped for, you know, strap for, you know, strap for HB Gary, all the stuff I was

investigated for and listed on my search warrant. These were all things that went to WikiLeaks. So is this in regards to, pardon my ignorance, but is this in regards to the, the NGO set up that Hillary Clinton was a part of that was tied to the Ukraine? where the DNC was working with the Ukraine to undermine Trump? No, this isn't, this isn't really come into that situation. That's something I'm familiar with and that some of the people I work with

have been investigating for years, people who knew more about the Ukraine and the 2016 election than I do. Of course, I was in prison for it. Right. This is, this is mostly unrelated issues are on the other side of those same issues, I guess. I mean, the same kind of chicanery that the Clintons were involved in with, know, with elements of Ukraine and other elements,

the Trump people were involved in with Assange, you know. Okay. And so that's, and that's a sad thing because we didn't set out, you know, wanting Assange to be the equivalent of some corrupt DNC fucking actor, or the Chinese giving money to Clinton's, you know, illegally or whatever, or the steel dossier people. You know, Fusion GPS. That's not what we envisioned.

We envisioned something that would stand above that, that would be principled, that we could defend. honestly and easily to be proud of. And that's not what happened. And it's, again, it's because of Sange, he got some bad advice.

He had a lot of good advice, but he didn't take it. And those who gave him the good advice were gradually alienated. And, you know, again, he overestimated his ability to, to, he started out as someone leaking information

about powerful people and ended up being someone who helped to conceal and inspire the power of power for people in a way they got leaked. It's the same story for the last 500 years, every political movement, you know.

It seems, yeah. The communist, you know, the communist start out. We're going to do this, this and this. Oh, well, because we're the communists, we're allowed to do this. And the CIA is going to fight the communists and they start out, you know,

doing this properly. Then it's like, oh, because we're the CIA, we can overthrow elections, we're going to act elections lie about it. When we actually screw up and actually help communism, we're going to cover it up. It's the same story. Democratic Party, Republican Party, WikiLeaks, you know, much else. It's the same human tendency in which, you know, we have blind spots, blinders, and we're easy, we're able to excuse our own and justify our own misconduct because the enemy is or is supposedly worse.

and we get to a point where that's saying the misconduct you engage in, that that gets found out. And then suddenly, even on a pragmatic level, it was no longer helpful, was it? Like the little breaking the rules here and there, when that is discovered, now you look bad. And you deserve to. And you've lost your moral stature. You've lost your credibility. It's all it takes. And again, it's an old, it happens constant.

It's a cycle that happens throughout movements. You know, things start out. you know, being effective, they go corrupt. You know, there's certain kinds of people who are climbers who will join groups and their career risks, timekeepers, bureaucrats, whatever. And there are certain kind of people, you know, who cannot hold power wisely. They can't hold on to it. And they can't keep their own bad instincts and check.

And they don't, something that's something that I do intentionally. They don't surround themselves with people who are willing to say, hey, you're fucking wrong on this. Fuck you. which is what I do to ensure. And that's why I, I, I've never lost a strong supporter of my life. In fact, I've gained a lot of, uh,

including some of the people who resigned from, from his, some of his groups to join me a few years ago. Uh, it's because regardless of what my faults are, uh, unlike Assange or Andy No or whatever else, I'm not going to hide,

uh, and tell to explain anything, anything at all. I will explain, openly and candidly and fully like any action I engage in because my policy is not to do not to engage in actions that I'm not willing to explain what do what do you what do you know about when I had karaoke on here a couple weeks ago he he kind of like shocked me at the end of our our talk where he told me that he he does a radio show a daily radio show on the russian sputnik

radio. And he said that they don't censor him at all, not one bit. And he said he's often critical of Putin and that whole regime. And he never has to deal with any kind of censorship. You know, nothing close to what he deals with in America with, you know, he said he's been banned on Apple podcasts, on Spotify and and lots of other media platforms. What is your, what is your take on on all of that. And what is your take on like Russian propaganda versus what's going on within the media within the U.S.? Right. So Russia today and Sputnik are pretty very different creatures. And I've dealt with Sputnik. I was interviewed with Sputnik a couple times. And I stopped going on Sputnik. I think after the first interview I did in 2017, because they misrepresented what I said. Like they, in a bizarre way, like I had said, there's basically it's like, this person did nothing. I said something about this,

whatever person did nothing wrong in that regard, their real problem was worse. They did this. And they changed it to this person did nothing wrong, like in the headline and all that shit. And I'm not going to fucking go in for that shit. Sputnik is also, I mean,

quite well known as it is, it is a very blatant Russian signals intelligence operation. It's been that way for years. So there are a couple of my, at least one of my colleagues who used to work with Sputnik early on before determining more about, it. Having said that, as of Russia today, Sputnik, oftentimes, you know, in a weird way, these outlets are going to be more, yeah, more willing to take on and provide a real free forum to

U.S. dissidents because even even they're criticizing Putin here, they're still, it's still a slap in the face of the U.S. It's still showing that, yeah, look, these guys couldn't get a gig on CNN. they couldn't get, you know, they're not going to get a column job at fucking the Atlantic. I mean, there's some outlets in the U.S. that, you know, where they could and can, but like, you know, and that's one of the reasons I went on Russia today. It's like about 20, 30 times between 2010 and a few months ago, my last appearance there, which ended up being not an actual interview.

It was an, it was not a media interview, but in fact turned out to be a, a free briefing to the Russian intelligence services about certain known CIA assets. This was done this three days before the Ukraine invasion. They never broadcasted or mentioned it, and the interview was with the Russian National. And I recorded it on my end and we'll make that public at some point. The transcript's already public.

Anyway, so I won't deal with them again because I don't like to be put in that position. Yeah, yeah. Again, this is, we're at the center. But between me and the people I work with, we're at the center of a lot of things. And we're very closely watched because we know, you know, we know quite a bit. And we are of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, of, again, that's why I was facing 105 years in prison. It wasn't because of my good looks.

It wasn't because, fucking, they just felt 105 was a fun number. Um, it's because, you just like, like, you have must have, you must have, you must be so fucking paranoid. I mean, you have, you're in the middle of all of these crazy just like, national. powers. Like you must be in the middle of so many different crosshairs. Does that not freak you the fuck out? Or do you just, do you thrive off of that? Traditionally, I've been much less paranoid than I should have been, which is why I keep in, especially in the last year or two, I've kept getting surprised about people I've dealt with. It turned out to be something else entirely. And so I've made a resolution to be more careful and

to punish those people very publicly. And into the U.S. and Russia, you know, by making that interview open by posting the interview they did that you know with russian intelligence it punished the russian intelligence by showing you know by by putting this out you know showing the russian intelligence again was using russia today as a means of uh espionage and it punished the u.s because that whole interview is when i go into a lot of their CIA assets that are being used openly within the anonymous movements in ddos uh which are now absolute extensions of u.s intelligence I mean, so, I mean, so not it's it's so I mean, I'm, I'm a drug addicts and an alcoholic. So, you know, and I once faced 105 years in prison and the odds were pretty high that I was going to die in prison. So after that, you know, to an extent, you're kind of, you're kind of deadens to, you know, like what was he going to do? I mean, what are they going to shoot me in the head? Oh, no. I'll be dead. This is kind of just like you, you said it used to be addicted to heroin, right? Yeah, yeah. And I'm still, but I'm still on suboxone mate. And you know, you know, It takes a box zone, which is a synthetic opiate, you know, I'm taking that for 10 years.

And you still take that currently. Yeah. And I take whatever else flows around, you know. Do you think that has anything to do with your kind of like what you're doing with, with your life right now as far as like, like, like, I think if I, I, I get the sense that you get energy from from all of this and from putting all this. Absolutely. I mean, it was to agree.

I mean, but you remember my, my, uh, the, the things that, uh, get me in trouble, uh, uh, I've been doing that since I was five years old, six years old. There's just something, there's some trait I have that prompts me to be really offended by so I see a certain kinds of injustice or dishonesty. And, you know, I wasn't on drugs when I got suspended from school like six or seven times during a particular year. Fuck my teachers and I wasn't on drugs. You know, but the drugs certainly contribute sometimes with certain kinds of behavior. But they also in some ways maybe help me, help me to refrain from, doing things that i shouldn't you know more more you know um let's say more direct things uh are you

afraid of death no no what i'm afraid of is that is that is that all these sacrifices and all this work uh is is going to is is going to come to nothing and that uh regardless of what happens to us you know the ones ones we're still alive uh the point will still get lost and uh Yeah, and the things that we've been that we've been predicting and that keep happening, you know, regarding Cambridge. Cambridge Analytica, Pallenser, election interference, mass disinformation, the inability for the average person to know where, where can I find credible information. All those things have accelerated in the last 10 years that we've been worried about predicted, tried to counter that those things will continue because we will have failed. But, you know, luckily I'm a human being. So I'm also able to cut that off.

I mean, you know, everyone's going to die, you know, this is going to happen. Luckily, luckily we're able to cut off from feeling emotions about that. You know, it's more arbitrary the way we feel. I mean, yeah, sometimes they do get very upset and hopeless. I feel hopeless about the cause. And in fact, I attempted to kill myself a month and a half ago for the first time my life and made that known afterwards.

Probably because I've come across some things involving people, close to us and was not very hopeful about other people taking them seriously. Luckily, my girlfriend woke up and intervened before that was completed. But that was then. Again, we've solved some of these problems since then. So I've been pretty happy since. You know, it's just my dad was only happy when he had lots of money. which was for about 70 years

so I got hit by the FBI for engaging all his real estate fraud and so forth. Your dad was in real estate fraud? Well, this case was dismissed, but he lost all his money and his part of the parties went to jail. He was a guy who made all his money, you know, no risk, no reward kind of way.

I'm only happy when I believe, when I have reason to believe that I'm going to be victorious over these much more powerful entities and I'm going to be able to convince people who don't quite see it that way yet that actually they're on my side, not necessarily these other sides, and that ultimately this whatever shape it takes will, starting next year in January,

results in an increased, the war that's being fought will actually start fighting it. The war that's involved, you know, 40 FBI raids in January 2011 against households in the U.S. for supposedly being involved in Rade in DDS and PayPal, you know, Elon Musk and fucking Peter Thiel's and Obed Yars thing. You know, all the fucking, all the deadly armed raids against people in the UK, Spain, France, being involved in anonymous, the people who disappeared, people who have died, you know,

took in their own lives or whatever, you know, all the stuff has been done to our families, the prosecutions, the unofficial prosecutions. that we're going to be able to, that people will see that there is a duty, necessity, and, you know, so it's my hope, my vision, and it's what keeps me going to know that someday, in the near future, I can get a lot of people to stop being pussies and start acting like real citizens,

vis-a-vis the information that we have documented that needs to be acted upon. And that entails a lot of things. It involves, will involve a couple of years of information warfare, making sure everyone's on the same page. And, you know, it will also entail a lot of these powerful oligarchs and so forth, losing more money, losing more influence. They're individuals who work for them going into hiding.

Or in some cases, making deals with me to be debriefed, as some people that sometimes they do. others who were not aware of what they were doing, you know, voluntarily coming and being brief, which happens. And then we'll get to a point, you know, over the next 10 years, as things get more chaotic, at which it will no longer be shocking to hear me say that, yes, these people who are absolute vast criminals. What do you think Peter Thiel's primary motivations are? And what do you think the future, the near future holds for as far as his ambitions, what he wants to achieve.

And can you go into that a little bit? Yeah. Uh, well, I mean, are you, by the way, did you just roll a joint? No, there's a cigarette.

My, I spoke weed out of a, uh, vaporizer thing now. Oh, oh, okay. There's a cigarette made up of,

I was going to say that's fucking amazing. I mean, you'd be the first person ever roll a joint on, uh, on, on, on my podcast. Oh, I've done,

I've done drugs on major national outlets. Hell yeah. The thing is, I'm going to smoke a cigarette outside the window, which is actually a bigger deal here. Smoker, smoke a weed in the house. There's no, no big deal. But the cigarette, tobacco stuff.

Yeah, all right. Come on. Come on. Was that your cat? Oh, that's cute. It's a cat. Anyway, random cat.

No, no, no. It's, yeah, it's Sylvia's my mom and girlfriends. So to some agree, anyone who wants to know what Peter Thiel, how he, what he believes in, and what he plans, they can find that out from Teal himself. just read his article on the dark enlightenment.

I would only add, as his motivations, I think his motivations are very similar to a number of historical figures going way back and, you know, right up until our times. He,

he was... Like fucking cat. It's a really obnoxious. It's always after food and shit, and it goes around anyway, and it's been fed and just working around extorting people. me own. So for people who don't know.

I think I think he honestly, honestly believes that the course that he wants, that he's in a position to establish for humanity is the best way forward. Yeah. And I think that that's true of people throughout, you know, that's true, it's true, it's true of of Stalin, it was true of Lenin, it was true of Hitler,

was true of Churchill, it was true of Roosevelt. It was true of George Washington, true of Napoleon. true of Julius Caesar and some of those people I have more sympathy with than others. I just don't think that Peter Thiel is up there with Napoleon or Julius Caesar or Robespierre or or Thomas Jefferson or even

yeah, I just don't based on my experiences with him and based on fact, again, that despite all of his power and money, I've been able to give him the runaround several times. and coordination with my people. If the idea is that, you know, you know, might is right or that the power, you know, will to power and all these things, well, it's not quite working out for him because, I mean,

it's been 10 years and the real response from me, aside from all the things that have appeared in the paper about him because of me and all the things, the congressional investigations that have occurred and make short because of me and the other stuff that's going to, that's occurred because of me, the real response by a number of us in some other organizations and individuals, journalists, you know, different kinds of people, that hasn't even come yet. But we've played a pretty significant part, both publicly and covertly,

in disrupting his enterprises and those of others, other individuals like him, oftentimes from prison. So I don't think he's, I don't think he's up to the task. I don't think he's up to the task of leading the world. And I think that's going to be made more, more, more clear in January,

when this hammer starts to drop. You're releasing, you're releasing your book, right? Yeah, my memoirs, which have been, you know, for a product of 10 years of research, you know, not just by me, but by Aaron Schwartz,

Michael Hastings, all tons of volunteers, so forth, we'll be coming out. It'll be going to every single major outlet in the Western world, as well as a lot of NGOs, all that's going to be championed by people like comedian Frankie Boyle, Alex Winter, you know, on up to fucking, you know, to anarchist radicals here and there, libertarian groups here and there.

What's going to be the name? What is the name of it going to be? It's called My Glorious Defeats. My glorious defeats. That's going to happen. And by then that time, the screenplay version that I'm doing with Alex Winter will be floating around Hollywood. even the fact of even just producers reading it,

you know, we have studios that want it, but the point of the fact of it is circulating around will itself help to bring attention to what we have on him and others around him, some of the journalists that he's had working for him, so forth. It will be produced. It will be made into a feature film. That I can pretty much guarantee that at this point

based on what I know. At the same time, some major projects that are doing in coordination with, several different, very, very different groups will launch. And a lot of the, you know, things that don't involve Peter Thiel, you know, will be coming out. And a lot of individual journalists, reporters, editors, and so forth, we're still working.

A lot of federal officials, FBI, federal judges, DOJ officials. What about George Soros? George Soros is already a subject of, attention for the last 20 years. Like that's someone like that's not someone who's named. People don't know. So like, you know, I don't, and I don't research him because George Soros wasn't wasn't the one spying on us when we were going after Tunisia. An interesting thing about George Soros to me is that he is like, he's labeled as this guy. He's just like any conspiracy theorist automatically wants to talk about George Soros.

And you talk about George. If somebody mentions George Soros, at least in my experience, it's like, you automatically like, oh my God, this is a fucking crazy person. This is a crazy conspiracy. Yeah, that's a phenomenon that applies to a lot of, to a lot of things that are, yeah, it's unfortunately, it's one of those things is because one here is this guy saying,

George Soros is going to use the UN to kill all the whites in five years. Like, you know, then the next person you say, hey, George Soros, like, oh,

you're one of those guys. It's the same thing I brought into with, like, uh, with different issues, you know, because Alex Jones has said something once or because whatever the fuck,

uh, for some, for some people, they think that, they think that that somehow has, you know, well, my friend growing up,

he had an older brother who's a little douchebag, hipster, he was in a punk rock and all that stuff, and into like irony for irony's sake and really irritating way. And him and his old girlfriend, sometimes they would drive us to the movie theater, and he would listen to the Beach Boys. And my friend, you know, who like me despises his brother for all of his douchebag,

hipster stuff, you know, started hating the Beach Boys. And I told, I said Caleb, he was Caleb Richard. He's now a journalist in Austin. I said, look, your brother doesn't have the power to make the Beach Boys anything better or worse than the

are, okay? You know, leave the beach boys alone. Just because your brother's a douchebag has no effect on the, and I also, but I understand there's a principle whereby like a lot of people who like certain bands, let's say nickel back or whatever, might be douchebags. And that might, you might be able to develop a framework whereby it's more likely that person's a douchebag. I get that. But unfortunately, in this society, everything, every statements, every fact, every assertion, especially as of the 2016 election, which luckily I was not in prison for safely away from, that whole fucking thing.

Especially since then, you know, everything's a fucking, everything is seen in context of how it might be used by the opposition. And so I come out of prison and I'm saying, yeah, like Russian intelligence, of course they were involved in this shit. That's what they do. They're very good at it. But also, there were other things involved in this election. They've known you with the Russian intelligence like Cambridge Analytica.

By the time I already said Russian intelligence, and now I've got people who are who are invested in the idea that Russia had nothing to do with the election and they're like, oh yeah, you're pro-CIA. It's like, yeah, I just got a fucking prison. I'm pro-CIA, good job.

You know, and if I say, yeah, Hillary Clinton was involved in the structure of justice shit where she destroyed her own, her and stuff, my mom was charged her to justice for much less. And so, yeah, of course, she got a fucking passion in the FBI from elements of the FBI. And of course, that's going to be. piss out in the Democrat's like, oh, you like Trump.

You know, it's like, no, I, I, I, well, at that point, he's president. So I couldn't say what I want to say. But, you know, it just everything is, everything is about something else. And this Amber, Amber Hurd, the United Dept trial, which me and, and my real friend and a few other friends, like, watched very closely because it has some, there's some issues there. There's actually very interesting. There's some issues there that are very relevant to me, uh, in particular. Right. And actually, so we actually watch the trial.

Like, we know what happened in the trial. we know what was presented. We know, you know, blah, blah. And, you know, and then after when the verdict comes, you know, now there's people, now, now there's all these tons of people who believe that they're feminists and believe that they're advocates for survivors of domestic abuse who were saying this is a greatest setback for domestic abuse survivors in history. Well, fucking Johnny Depp's finger was cut off by Amber Heard, uh, according to everyone except

for her. Uh, Johnny Depp, you know, her is on tape like saying, you know, then it's like punch you. I punched you. I just hit you, you baby. blah blah and like you fucking pussy be a man yeah yeah exactly it just it just the evidence was was clear i mean if we if we believe women then we can believe amber her but she said she punched the fuck out of john jip over and over again and there's no evidence the contrary so you know it's one of those things where i already know when i if i go public if i go and say hey you know

this was actually a victory for domestic abuse people you know violence or anyone who's had to deal with a borderline personality disorder person and it's also useful because here's someone on the stand who clearly has these disorders that sometimes help people become become powerful because they lack all ethics they can lie they're willing to lie in ways other people you know would not believe the one would lie about you know it's hard to believe a certain kind of monstrosity these are people who are in high places and very rarely do they have to get they end up getting cross-examine in public where everyone can see where they're forced to you know to address their lives and everyone can see what kind of person exists out there right amber her doesn't matter but

there are other people who matter a lot who probably had those same conditions. You know, anyway, so it's an important trial for that case, but for those reasons. But of course, a lot of people who have seen none of it, who admitted to saying none of it, you know, have decided that they know all about it. And this is just a metaphor for journalism and for. It's a weird thing in the media, too, man. It's a really weird thing in the media because you can almost, it's a thing that I feel like I'm optimistic about a lot of people are becoming more aware of, especially when it comes to like the big corporate media websites in particular like for example like when i noted when this uh when the verdict came out yesterday it was you can already

you can already predetermine which websites which media entities are going to have what position on what thing like vice for the most part yes vice they were just like shitting on johnny Depp saying, you know, Amber, you know, he said that he wouldn't want it to fucking kill her and fuck her corpse. And he won. Can you believe this fucking asshole won the one the trial? And then you see the other media outlets, you know, taking the complete opposite position. It's just like there's no logic or, or critical thinking involved in any of this stuff. It's just. And then there's outliers. Then there's unusual. It's like with the New York Post and other a lot of other Murdoch, uh, or the deals were actually after Johnny Depp as well,

even though their right wing, because Johnny Depp to them or to whoever's telling them to do whatever was it was representative Hollywood, Libbyzian liberals, whatever. And so to them, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was worthwhile to show, aha, look, you know, it's, uh, look at all these, look at these guys who are left wing, even though, you know, Depp is not very, not that political openly, but, you know, he's, he's a Hollywood actor. But look at them. Look at how they act. You know, that was there. So that's why daily, that's why, you know, Depp ended up suing a Murdoch owned, you know, white-wing paper of the sun in the UK a couple years ago and then losing and then you know uh and then

you know in the last quarter the last couple months a lot of the fox stations and so forth local fox affiliates have had misleading things you know attacking depth now some of they're coming around and realize you know then of course but then you have so there's a mix here it gets complicated but yes for the most part uh there are there's the thing there's a lot of people who are actual feminists and actual uh advocates for for domestic violence who have been on depth side in last few weeks, last few months since they've seen this stuff come out and they actually care about these things in the truth.

And then there's a bunch who don't. There's a bunch who, you know, who just, again, perhaps if they had actually seen parts of the trial, they would have a different opinion, or perhaps they wouldn't because they think that doesn't really matter if domestic, if Johnny Depp was abused and then lied about, what matters is what political implications will that be?

How will, you know, how will this be used to discredit women in the future? like well i mean hopefully it'll be used to the straight women who get caught lying about it i mean anyway so it's this is a great example of the disingenuous this the obscurantist ballet where facts don't matter uh all that matters is is gaining an edge and in whatever the different kind of cultural wars between right and left or between between this left wing faction between the between trans and turf you know or between you know uh you know on the right it's different that's all that matters to a larger number people and that is basically this is a

our society faces, that that's the chief disease, is that everyone's arming up. And every, every fact, every instance, every, everything that matters is seen primarily for how it can be used in this disingenuous, you know, information war that destroys both sides, makes both sides worse, ensures that both sides elevate people who are willing to to engage in that kind of thing and casts out or cast down or ignores those who are on the right saying hey maybe Trump isn't a good guy or whatever on the left saying hey maybe like you know a thousand fucking things the left want to acknowledge you know um and it and it yeah and it it it it it's a problem it makes it difficult if like you know for those who wants to like discuss these issues uh and wants to refer to the the facts of them and wants to engage in the kind of civic engagements that we have to have if we're going to have a real society, which we're not going to.

Right. Going back to what I was mentioning about George Soros a minute ago. Oh, I want to look at this cat out. This guy. Yeah. Let that fucking cat out. Jesus. Bring the cat.

Ha. Don't go. Got out of here. Don't come back. I know. I love cats. I never liked cats until I got one about two, a year and a half ago. now I like him

good yeah anyways what I was talking about George Soros is like he's always been to me like this fantastical figure of conspiracy theories and he was never anyone that I considered

or even like thought about as being a real fucking person because I never really did the research I just sort of heard of him from these fringe type people or these fringe conspiracy theory type people until I watched an Oliver Stone documentary, which is how I learned about the Hillary Clinton and the DNC being involved with the Ukraine and how Hillary was a part of this NGO that was funded by George Soros and how they were all connected to the Ukraine and the current president of the Ukraine trying to interfere with the election in 2016. and it's like, wow, like this guy actually does fund these NGOs that are connected to the DNC.

And they really didn't want Trump to be president. And they obviously did want Hillary to be president. I mean, yeah. I mean, that's, I mean, that's, that's something that's not a secret. I mean, the larger denser on a secret, George Soros has been very public for 20 or 25 years about, you know, his vision of the open society. He calls it, you know, the Open Society Foundation. you know, which might differ from a lot of our, you know, he's a centrist. He's a, he's a, he's a systemist.

Like, he believes in working in the systems and, uh, and whatever. And, uh, and the Clintons, of course, are what they are. And, uh, you know, so I mean, so it's not, it should not be surprising. And, uh, you know, in terms of things, in terms of things that have occurred that George George Soros might responsible for the Clint's my responsible for, that's small beings right there, you know, that. that kind of that kind of you know that's it gets much much worse than that so you think uh george sorrows doesn't even hold a candlestick to peter thiel in terms of uh sinister and malevolous sinister uh intentions

and malevolence interfering with government i i couldn't uh well uh i couldn't say simply because i have not although i've been aware of jose roos for a long time uh i've never specialized this him right and so although occasionally i've been people i've had people explain to me what their concerns are and genus 21 and all these different things you know and i've had to kind of short through a little bit here and there what is legit what is not and uh you know uh i've never you know i've never seen him someone who you know probably you know after the cold war was uh heavily involved in trying to democratize the the countries that had been from the former former soviet countries that he had emerged from you know

the same thing we're from. And also, yeah, obviously, I mean, he's, he's a, he's a, he's a, he's a, the kind of figure that comes within the, the traditions of the American bipartisan consensus. He's just, for me, it's a very typical figure in that regard, whether it be the CIA, you know, heads or Nixon or, or, you know, Carter or trilateral, trilateral, trilateral commissioned. types or the Clintons or George Bush senior. He's just, you know, it's, I've always actually kind of been, I've never understood why he himself has been, has been, you know, obviously, he funds, he's a major funder of the DNC and that kind of thing. But it's just, he just, he just doesn't strike me as that much different from, you know,

the Rockefellers or whatever. I just don't, you know, I've just never seen. the urgency, the exceptions. I mean, he's like the Koch brothers, who I'm also not that interested in, because the Coke Brothers is pretty straightforward. And again, also because the Koch brothers are well known, and George Soros is well known.

Whereas Peter Thiel and Powell, in the events he's been involved in, because Peter Thiel's company specialize in information and disinformation, they have been able to do a better job of ensuring that, number one, a lot of the right, like libertarians, thinking he's a libertarian, which he's not. And number two, that a lot of the left had never heard of them. And that number three, the both Republicans and Democrats, as they did back in that 2011 will protect them.

You know, in 2015, as came out in the pedestrian emails, this is something that's never been reported in any outlet that I happy to come across when I'm going around looking through them when I got to prison. We learned that, you know, number one, we know that the Trump campaign approached Palantor to assist with them in the election. know that they did because Peter Thiel wanted him to. What's not important is that the Clinton campaign also approached Pallinger for helping the election. Both parties know how powerful Pallencer is. What Pallister did not realize is that although Alexander Carp, who's the CEO of Pallencer for a while, although he is a centrist Democrat kind of thing or center left or a little bit whatever, Peter Thiel is not. Peter Thiel calls the shots there. That's why the Democrats didn't get help from palinter whereas republicans got a lot of help from palinter and peter teal both

in a public sense and in a clandestine uh elicit sense involving facebook cambridge analytica the data mining scandal uh general flin uh some of the companies like our communities global that we had looked into uh you know um straf for met with general flin you know it's also one of the reasons why muller uh you know and debor had so forth when they went investigated the election and all that. Remember that Mueller commission was not just to investigate the Russian activity, it was to investigate all activity, all this activity interfering with the 2016 election. And in 2017, the Mueller people leaked to the Washington Post and few other outlets that they were now looking at the couple of firms, one with White Canvas Group, which was part led by General Flynn.

White Canvas Group happened to be one of the firms that we had looked into in 2011, 2012. It was involved in the Ramos Coen projects that I wrote about in the Guardian, 2011. But beyond that, you never heard about what campus group again. In fact, you heard very little in the Mueller Commission or the press about Palantir, about our community's global, about these firms. Because the Mueller Commission was invested in protecting the fact that they enabled these same people in these same companies, that they defended these companies, including white campus group,

run in Aaron Barr, my old arch enemy before Peter Thiel, that they were the ones who protected these groups and went after, sometimes illegally, those of us were going after these groups. And so after 2017, after that brief period, you see nothing about Flynn's involvement. You see nothing about white canvas group,

Pounder, because here we have, you know, Miller was Republican traditionally, but of course the Democrats were rooting for them, thinking because they believe the FBI was really going to get at the bottom of the election interference because the FBI has always been a great defender of democracy. So it's again, so what I'm saying is that, yeah, what we're up against is not a, what we're up against is a citrus thing where there's, there are very few Republicans who won't help to protect this, this secret apparatus in their own selves, their own involvement in it,

and very few Democrats who won't. And so the good news, I guess, for those who, for those who think the Democrats are the bigger threat, well, there's plenty of those to go after down the line. And the good news for those think Republicans are the bigger threat. Well, there's plenty of those too. You know, and then we can sort out the other bullshit later on. But ultimately, this system and those who have supported its corruption, who have who have been caught over and over again. and the stuff that we've put out that's come out elsewhere and the stuff that's going to come out in ways it's going to be hard to ignore next year.

These things have to be responded to, or we're going to all just hang it up and go home. You know, we're going to just spend the next five years just pitching on Twitter saying stuff. And meanwhile, companies that are very sophisticated will continue to do what they want to do and they'll tell us what they want to tell us and a lot of people will believe it.

And those of us who warned about it two years ago, getting proven right we will be uh we'll be scrambling for the spotlight you know up against msnbc or fucking tim pool or and you know you know do you think do you think you'd be in as extreme in your way of going about your work if you hadn't have gone if you hadn't gone to prison in the first place do you think yeah going to prison for four years, changed your outlook at all or changed you at all in any way? Remember, I talked like this the years before I got her with the prison. It's part of why I went to prison because I was identified by none of the adversaries.

And sometimes we have, we have leaks in which they're talking about this, whether it be Aaron Barr, some agree, Mueller, who bragged about his involvement in this trap for operation that the FBI led and that led to me and me and others being prison. I was identified, and there's no way of saying this without bragging as a very severe potential threat, given my high, high pension for risk, given my ability to gain power within organizations like anonymous and given a number of other elements. So, and again, I was, I was, yes, I was a militant before I went to prison and I actually relaxed a bit in prison. Well, I got out of prison and I started learning more about who in the press was involved in squaw, and strangling in the crib, the results of our research and of our leaks and so forth and how many of them had risen up to the New York Times, New York, or so forth. and learn more about who would, who would stab us in the back within our own groups. And all that, that's when our really went off the rails. And I've calmed down since then, the last, you know, a year or so, because I now,

things have been set in motion, you know, that are going to ensure that no one else is going to go through this again. what was your what can you describe what your experience how old were you first of all how old were you when you first went to prison I guess it was 32 maybe so 32 12 12 so 10 years no I was it must have been 30 and you said and you said that they sent you to the special housing unit the shoe also also a solitary confinement for like six months yes for all together I was I was in there for a couple of two months stents and then like three or four like weeks, one or two weeks, you know, for different things, including investigations, an investigation into my involvement in a, what do they term it? It was a incident. It wasn't a riot.

It was a disturbance whereby a number of us refused to go into direct to ourselves for a lot. down until a certain officer was removed from our unit and not brought back. His officer had threatened an old man and the different races got together. And the gang got together and said, you know, we don't like us. We're on guard on that. So I'm going to standoff and me and a few others were identified by them as the ringleaders. And so held for two months in the shoe and then, you know, released with, you know, our commissary things were told them. The punishment, of course, was being held in the shoe, you know.

And then another incident where they kind of found a morphine in my bloodstream. And they gave a random drug test and all that. And I went, you know, shoot again. And that was then they transferred me. Another incident where they found morphine in your bloodstream? Yeah. This is a prison, dude. Smuggled in?

I mean, well, this case, this was, I mean, morphine. So there's medical unit. Okay. The place I was now was a low security prison in Fort Worth. I was at terrible. Disgusting little prison. Anyway, and there was the medical unit. So a lot of.

a lot of the disease dying or inmates and all that. And there's people who work in the medical unit and there's morphine and other painkillers. And those morphine painkillers make their way out of that area and back to those of us who will trade, who will buy them. And yeah, then they take my blood and I have morphine. And then another time, this is actually captured, there's a short documentary on YouTube called Relatively Furry that Alex Winter did.

Yeah, I saw that. Yeah. And at the beginning, you know, I'm pulled off the phone for talking to him and putting the shoe for two weeks. And, you know, other important incidents. Oh, yeah, I was doing an interview with a reporter in Houston. And again, pulled off while they investigated to see if that was against the rules, which of course it wasn't. Blah, blah, blah. So, yeah, I did six months altogether.

But usually not in solitary. There's too much overcrowding for that. You almost always have a cellmate in the shoe. Oh, really? It was just you and some guy living together in a small room about this size for a month, two months, longer. Yeah, and that was the documentary when where they basically, they pick you, your parents picked you up and you're riding in the car. Alex Winter in the film crew. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean to drive to Dallas. We had a few hours to get there. Otherwise, I'd be, I'd be listed as, because they estimate how long it should take to get there. The first estimate they gave me was it would take two and a half hours. that was incorrect. It actually takes five hours to drive from them. So they were trying to. Yeah. And so I had to go through the whole thing with them before my release and be like, no, that's not. I mean, we're not said to that. If you, if you put that down as two hours, I'm going to go ahead and anyway. So they had a lot of six hours, but we still had to get there in time. We'd arrive at the halfway house in time. Or I'd be listed as an escapee. They don't make it easy for people who get out of prison to get back on their feet. They make especially hard for certain of us. I mean, there's some. They don't, you know,

Again, there's a reason I got six months. I got six months halfway house, which is much more than most inmates get. And the reason for that is the same reason that one person could kick me out of the prison, send me to another prison. Same reason that that prison also tried to kick me out to another prison. The BAPU wouldn't allow it. And it's the same reason, you know, because they don't want me there because I'm writing about the prison. And it's starting up trouble.

So for me, I got to why I got six months of halfway house because I was, you know, they wanted me out of there. They were, you know, which I understand. investigative journalist and anarchist agitator. I'm in the middle of their prison. You know, some of the guards are talking to me about their spirits that they don't like, you know. Yeah. And so forth.

So. Can you explain? I found this very interesting part of that. I don't know if this was that. I think it was a different thing that I saw where you're explaining. I believe it was called the Pursuant Project. Yep. Can you explain?

The Pursuant Project. Explain that? Yeah. The Pursuant's project. was a nonprofit I started when I got out. I used a couple thousand dollars from my book advance to get started and then did a crowd crowdfunding later on. We were trying to build something that I've been hoping that Project PM itself before

it became what it became an investigation into the intelligence community. It was originally set up to do. It was to create a software apparatus that would allow mass self-organization. among a certain constituency of people in a way that would allow, that would maximize efficiency and essentially create a new and superior form of democracy, which I call process democracy, as opposed to institutional democracy. It's not something I can effectively or viably explain, like, further, you know, a brief amount of time. It's something that, but it's something, there's, There's some speeches I've given on it, presentations that are on YouTube.

People look up to do it. But the nonprofit I established was infiltrated, it turns out, very quickly, I should have expected by a number of people. You know, and aside from that was attacked public. NPR did a profile on me, 2018, and on pursuance, claiming that pursuance was a criminal organization that was involved, let people hire hackers to hack things. And my probation officer came and visited me

a couple days later. And the NPR eventually had to issue a bunch of corrections to that article, about 15 of them, including a claim they had made that Stratford, the company that I've been involved, you know, that I had known about the hack of and went down for, that it had somehow been involved

in the Bin Laden raid and that the hack of it had somehow interfered with that. Stratford had told NPR that because Stratford works with NPR, both publicly and privately. We know that from Strapper's emails we have stolen. So we have their communications with NPR. And they and some of their,

anyway. So that kind of stuff, it was the same kind of stuff that was used against Project PM both before and after I went to prison. And endangered, I understand endangered and sometimes led to help assisted in prosecutions or, you know, whatever people I worked with.

And so that's my first clue that things were, that, you know, things are going to be difficult. Also, I don't, you know, a lot of personal problems.

You know, my CPD, SD was kicking in. I was in a relationship with, with someone who had more Lempersonitis order. Uh, not as bad as I never heard, but, but, you know, but, you know, but, but, but, anyway, a lot of shit happened. And the DOJ was also, uh, uh, prevented me from being paid by my publisher for the first seven months because they claimed they had to figure out how much I owed restitution to strap for a lot of shit was going down. Uh, then also I was reached, I did, uh, articles on the Botham Gene shooting, uh, by Amber Geiger, a white police officer in

Dallas and a month later he started getting there's a bomb threat made to the magazine that I wrote for again if people look up there you got bare brown bomb threat they can see a little bit about that I had to investigate this bomb threat itself because the Dallas press including my own editor at the instructions of the Dallas police kept it quiet and then the same person who made the bomb threat under his own name on Facebook continued as soon as I mentioned threats over and over again to to my dinner girlfriend and and even threatened to assassinate better or orc the uh the you know Senate candidate governor of the fuck you know unlike me when I when I said I was shooting FBI

agency came to my house this person who the ticket service would have come after because the bit of bed of work was a presidential candidate at that point never never got arrested in fact the police claimed they arrested him and charged them they claim that to my city councilman Philip Kingston who forwarded me the email and then were caught in other audio recordings admitting otherwise. And eventually I, if anyone, anyway, there's a bunch of recordings I may. Eventually,

cut up all these police officers and police officials, the head of the police department in Dallas and all that, the head of the police association in Dallas and record them. And, and again, got them to talk to me. They, you know, there's a rule that you shouldn't, never, never, never, never talk to cops. And there's, there's another rule. the cops shouldn't talk to like metacops, which is kind of what I am.

And they did anyway. And so now, as you'll see in my book when it comes out, or if you want with the manuscript, we've got a lot of them dead to rights on this. Anyway, so, yeah, pursuance didn't do well. Again, I was not a very good leader of an actual nonprofit. We were under a lot of pressure from, and one of the people, at least one of the people who was brought on without my knowledge, was the same person who had written an article about my,

about me after my arrest, claiming that I was a hacker and that I was probably an FBI cooperator. This person was brought on to work of pursuance, which was a media reform organization. Later on, we found out more about this person who goes by Rancoster on Twitter. Lorraine, whatever. She'd also done a lot of other things for the Daily Dot, other vastly inappropriate and probably illegal stuff in the course of her report. reporting for the outlet. And also cooperated and also was a good friend with some of the FBI cooperators who went up against me and against the now, now dead Kevin Gallagher.

That's one of the people who infiltrated the group. Then there's Susie Dawson, who we don't know what her deal is, but she's someone that even the Saan considers crazy, as was leaked in with some of his messages. And who, but anyway, so just a lot of it just, it just, it lots of happened. And again, and our, the guy we hired to do the, to build the software, to be the lead developer. He was, I didn't want to fire him first because I'm just kind of a soft, soft, bizarrely enough, but like our several, my core, uh, nonprofit associates, uh, Annalise Burkhart and Claire Peters, uh, readily insisted that he'd be gotten rid of. And a lot of our, uh, volunteer coders

insisted that this guy be got rid of Scott. His name is Steve Phillips. and so we got rid of him. We paid him a little bit extra money, you know. And then he went about engaging in some behavior, some activity to undermine the group. And it was just, it was one thing after, there's just tons of things that happened. So, and then an article came out in Der Spiegel, German outlet, which has written seven articles about me, some of which contradict each other. My favorite one is one in 2014 that says that Barrett Brown might not have to go to jail after all. When, of course, I've already been in jail for two years.

it just again people are incompetent in 20 beginning of the beginning of the beginning of 2020 I think there's people put out an article claiming barrett brown used to be something something now he spreads conspiracy theories and harasses women and uh they never pointed out which which women I harassed I even I asked I asked the writer the author I got a doctor who said hey can you tell me more about my conspiracy theories what they are and who I harassed. And as far as we can tell, they're referring to Claire LeMont, the head of Quillette. Quillette is an outlet that funds, it's funded by Peter Thiel.

And Claire Lamont had publicly claimed that I was harassing another Peter Thiel associate when I posted on Twitter. There's an article about this as well. It was Ben. Just look at Barrett Brown, Claire Lamon, or Bear Brown, Colette, or Barrett Brown, you know, Twitter ban, uh, claim that I was harassing a woman that worked Peter Thiel.

What I posted on Twitter saying, is anyone have any information on this person's name? Uh, so again, so like, so, and, uh, Der Spiegel and they, and they,

and they're speaking of the sub headline, didn't issue any correction, didn't, didn't acknowledge they changed it, uh, but never came close to, uh, issuing an apology or correction or,

or again, even identifying what woman it was that I harassed. supposedly. At that point, I wrote an article for Counterpunch, which is an outlet that I'm very close to, just saying, hey, I'm done. I'm closing pursuance down for now until I can better protect it. Between this, you know, I'm not going to have my people and myself foot on the same road where any fucking reporter feels comfortable working with, you know, my powerful

enemies to write libel about me or to claim like NPR did that all of our volunteers and people would do people who had signed up 2,000 people had signed up for pursuance that they were hackers or involved in criminal activity. I'm not going to do that, but going to close it down. And I will read, you know, we'll get back to this effort to create this, this structure, this framework for, for mass, you know, for civic collaboration for for crowdsource journalism, all these things. when I feel that I'm able to defend it as viciously as possible from those who keep getting away with making it easier for the police to come after us. And so close it down at that point. Wow.

You know, it's funny. I just, I recently did a interview with a guy who was involved in a lawsuit with Hulk Hogan about it, regarding his sex tape. And he was talking about how Peter Thiel... Oh, yeah, yeah. I know about this. Yeah, so I had him on my podcast, like two weeks ago or whatever. And he was talking, you know, talking about how Peter Thiel funded Hogan to take down Gawker and basically dissolve Gawker. Do you know why he...

And that's that... Good. The really funny thing about that is that Gawker back in 2011, 2012, that's where Adrian Chen and John Cook and Sam Biddle, who worked for their other thing as Motto, that was the place that was the outlet where originated a lot of the false claims about me that they would later that would later be changed to give different forms or picked up by their outlets. And where Adrian Chin at Gawker and others made fun of me for my interest in Pallanter and Peter Thiel saying that the emails that, you know,

We have good to work quote boring unquote is Adrian Chin. So I found out from prison that Peter Thiel, the person that they had, you know, not worried about had successfully managed to close down their whole fucking out operation. Well, I heard that it was because he had like a grudge against them because they. No, no, they added him. Yeah, I don't know. It's again, they added him, you know, and blah. What I'm saying is that like, you know, they didn't consider Peter Schild to be a threat to like, you know, media, free speech. Well, in fact, I mean, some of them did, maybe they may have, but some of them were almost certainly working with the FBI at this point.

Adrian Chin's one of them. Right. I say this because he comes up in the discovery files of me and Jeremy Hammond and engages in what would be the thing kind of things that would be crimes if we had done them, including trying to buy stolen emails from anonymous hackers. which is well beyond what I was prosecuted for. Anyway, there's a lot more to that, too, the Adrian Chin thing. Anyone who looks at my Twitter at Praj PM, PR, JPM, they'll notice a few hours ago. I just welcomed Adrian Chin back to Twitter. He had been away for two years and just reminded him of some certain things and some screenshots I have.

Anyway, the funny thing is that, yeah, they had done, because these attacks on me that started Gawker because they spread around to the New York Times, the Atlantic, all these other outlets. Like it helps not only to discredit me and to make it easier for the FBI to come in and do, to be, for my case to be ignored and or seen as initially as less than what it was. And because they protected Peter Thiel in that way from pro scrutiny, they helped to create the conditions where about a few years later they'd all be out of jobs

because Peter Thiel was mad at them for the other thing. Right, right. And so I had a good laugh at that about that from prison. When I heard of it. Do you, are you acting? It would be sad otherwise

if Gawker were like an actual organization that was not fucking garbage. Like, he'd be a shit. It'd be mad at Peter Thiel. In this case, I was like, you know what? Good job, Peter Thiel.

are you um actively trying to avoid being banned from twitter are you just are you just not giving a fuck in your daily interactions uh no i i i am trying not to you because i because when the book comes out you know i want to be able to best uh the best positions to to help you know market and so forth make sure it's read make sure the contents are seen make sure it's discussed make sure the the journalists and and uh other media professionals who are who make up the chief villains of the book even you know even beyond peter teal make sure that they uh had the least chance of being able to escape scrutiny or hide from the shit as they've been doing for years and so i want to keep that footer account yes is there is there is there is

any chance when your book comes out you uh would come to the u.s to help promote it uh if i was if i came with the uh about 30 000 mombasa mercenaries and we were heavily armed and fucking uh we're storming a beach and fucking had a yeah absolutely unless i have that no that's hilarious man jesus christ what a life you live man i know it's not a joke i know it's i know you're serious serious is a heart attack um anyways thank you for doing this i it's been an incredible conversation i've learned a lot um tell people who are watching and listening where they can learn more about you or find what you're doing actively. I know you mentioned your Twitter,

but is there anywhere else people can find your work and, you know, other things that you've published and things of that sort? Yeah, they just look up Bear Brown on Google. They'll find Wikipedia page and I watch stuff. They'll find some links to column, you know, my prison columns,

the one that won all the awards, everyone liked and all that. At pro, JPM, that's my Twitter account. And, you know, we stroll down through that. You'll find lots of, you'll,

you'll get more of a sense of why I'm an active target of not just governments, but yeah, a lot of other things. But, but, again, hopefully, you know, that Twitter account will be quite active. I mean, I'm going to be posting things in the next six months. If you look at the PIN's tweet there about the book release and what else is got a company of that you'll get a sense that one of my intentions is to engage in a degree of psychological warfare against some people that are in the book are reminding them that they're in the book. The book's coming out.

The book will be sent to people in a position to act on these things. Dallas is a good example. Anyway, but bottom line is that if people want to be, want to have some fun, they'll enjoy watching my Twitter account over the next six months. and they'll enjoy when the book comes out, even if they, whether they buy it or not,

the, the information itself will be, will be mentioned in a number of outlets, you know, online outlets and so forth. And so no one has to pay a dime to see, to see the shit go down.

Are you doing an audio? They want to get the book. They'll enjoy it. Are you going to do an audio version? People like me can't read. In fact, they were going to have me do the, go do, the voiceover is going to be done by me. Oh, cool.

They were going to have me go out to L.A. to do that back in January 2020 before COVID started. And then, you know, blah, blah. So I'm assuming I'm still going to be the one reading the audio version. And, of course, there'll be a Kindle version and all that too. Right. Well, cool, man. I'm really looking forward to it. And I'm going to be paying attention to your Twitter account as well for the next six months.

I'm looking forward to getting your book when it comes out. Thanks again for doing this. I really appreciate it. No problem. Thanks for driving me off.