Danny Jones Podcast - #23 - John Gotti's Hitman | John Alite

Episode Date: November 4, 2019

John Alite is an Albanian-American former associate of the Gambino Crime Family.  John is now a motivational speaker and has published books such as "Darkest Hour" & "Gotti's Rules", which explore the treacherous, double-dealing and corrupt world of the American Mafia in the 21st century. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All right, cool. So super last minute podcast today. Thank you for doing this. John. So for people out there who are listening who may not know, tell me, explain to me who you are and what your background is. Well, I'm Albanian first off. And I'm involved with the Gambino family since I'm a kid, literally since I'm a young kid. And I moved down here to Tampa back and forth from New York to Tampa, Florida to set up some businesses, which I did. set up a parking company. I set up nightclubs, glass companies, and I based down here bookmaking, and we ran things back and forth from Florida back to the East Coast. Okay. Now, what specifically did you do, like, in your height of being involved in all of this, and being involved with the Gambino family? And what are you specifically known for? Well, I was known as an enforcer of the Gambino family. specifically I worked later on in years for the Gotti family directly and was their enforcer,

their killer, the guy that you didn't want to see if they had a problem with us. Okay. So obviously, if you're admitting you were a killer and you're sitting here right now, not behind bars, how did that happen? I was in jailed many years. Actually, my case was based out of Tampa, Florida, although I was a New Yorker and born and raised in New York. We expand the business down here to Florida, and the middle district of Florida ended up sending an indictment RICO case against me. And I went on a lot on the run,

which they say on the lamb, to probably about 20 countries. And eventually I was caught in Brazil by Interpol and imprisoned in Brazil for two and a half years fighting extradition back to this country, which eventually they got me back here. And I did the circuit of prisons in Tampa between Falkenberg, Hernandez County, Pinellas County, Hillsborough, Lake County. I've been in all these jails here, Miami, MCC. So I'm very familiar with the system in Florida, Miami, Tampa area. Okay, and what exactly were you locked up for? I was charged for drug dealing, murders, murder conspiracies, assaults, and just the slew of everything

which they bottle up in what they call Rico. I was involved in a Rico racketeering case and with the Gambino family and consider the street boss. Holy shit. Okay. So how did you get out of prison if you had a murder charge?

How did you beat a murder charge amongst all of these other insane charges? Well, when I was down in Brazil, when Interpol catches me, I'm doing about two years, two and a half years there. Well, I did examine. exactly two and a half years there. And I was brought back here on Christmas Eve, 2006, almost 2007.

Extradition law is a 30-year sentence between countries. So I'm facing life here once I left the country in order for them to bring me back, the maximum time I can get on that extradition treaty is the maximum life sentence in Brazil, which is 30 years. So once they bring me back, it's a 30-year term. And how old are you then? About 25 on that. I was in my 40s, about 40, 40.

years old when they when they grabbed me okay with a 30 year sentence well prior to that i've been in and out of prisons uh basically my adult life so i was in and out uh i did a three and a half year bit on a gun charge i did some assault charges i did uh six months a year three months three months violations uh bribery cases so i'm accustomed to the system wow and so it seems like you obviously got a lot of time knocked off that sentence, right? I mean, how did you get all that time knocked off? Well, once I come back to Tampa, Florida, before I come back to Tampa, Florida, there's a couple of guys that were involved in the associates of mine that fly down to Brazil, and they give me paperwork on certain guys in the Gambino family. One of them being

the son of John Gotti Sr., the boss of the Gambino family from the 90s, 80s to the 90s who dies in prison. But his son was what they call Queen of the Day. So Queen of the Day is somebody that walks into the government, makes a deal with them to give up crime, criminal activity. And he's free to talk about anything, can't get charged with. And at the same time, giving up activities of associates, members of the Gambino family or of other organizations and other families. So that was, I guess, around 2005, 2004, 2005 thereabouts, while I was in those penitentiaries, Gotti's son, Gotti Jr. was queen of the day.

He was queen of the day, meaning that he talked. to the FBI and got full protection from them? Yeah, exactly. Cooperating. Most people don't know what that is. And then it translates into what they call a 302. I mean, you're never going to get all the documents of what he was talking about. But the thing is, he met with the government and he started cooperating.

Yeah. How old were you when you started getting involved with these guys? I was a kid. My father was involved with my uncle in a gambling business. My uncle was a, ran a game called Three Card Monty in the Bronx with Charlie Luciano. It was a very famous gangster's name. Lucky Luciano, the cousin of Charlie Luciano Blackie was my uncle's partner. So I would be at those games at five, six years old.

And prior to, I mean, after that, Andy Ruggiano was the boss in my neighborhood. Andy Ruggiano was a quiet dawn in my neighborhood. He was the guy that ran our area for the Gambino family, a very famous gangster. He was straightened out or became a made member of the mafia through Albert Anastasia. Albert Anastasia was murder ink. He's also very famous gangstick killer. I hung around that family and played baseball with them, boxed with them, went to the gym with them. Yeah.

And became very familiar with the ways of the mafia being quiet and underground. And despite what people see later on in the Gadda era of the loud and the boissures, it's not the way. the ganges operated for within the mob it was a quiet organization or it's supposed to be there so guys like Andy Ruggiano was a true boss

people really don't know who it is because behind the scenes he's very quiet yeah behind the scenes guy so what chain of events led up to you actually meeting the Gadi's or Gadi's Gadi Senior

was the first guy you worked with right well you know again I'm around the Ruggiano family and I'm around and meet him eating different gangsters. Did you know, like when you, when you started and you were with those guys, did you know who the Gotties were?

I mean, no, they didn't have that name back then. Godi, Senior, ends up getting straightened out in the late 70s. His brother Jeannie, a little before him, a couple years before him. I don't think they ever get that right in the media. Jeannie was actually a maid member first. Genie Gotti. Gehdi. And Senior Gotti ends up getting a name for himself in the early 80s.

in the 70s through a murder, but in the early 80s where the public really knows them. And later on, a fat Andy Ruggiano goes to prison, so senior steps in his shoes and becomes the boss in our area, which is the captain and skipper at that time. Okay.

So as time progresses, I'm meeting different mobsers in a Gambino family, and senior becomes one of the guys I meet and junior I meet through mutual friends. We're all in the same neighborhood, so it's not really somebody would say it's like living in the Tampa area and you go to International Mall and that's where the scene is set and everybody sees each other on a daily basis.

So it's, you know, just a mixture of where we live in the area. One of the authors, a writer Lou Romano talks about, you know, your zip code and your zip code determines the way of your life. And our zip code was, if you could spell our zip code, my area was 11421. But if you spelled it a different way, it would be mobsters incorporated. I mean, it was just gangsters around and that's how we were raised. And what specific area was that? Like, what specific town was that?

I grew up in Woodhaven, but the aligning neighborhoods, Ozone Park was also a gangster area and Howard Beach is where the Gotti family lived. Okay. I don't even know where Woodhaven is. There was a New York. It's a Queens. Queens. Queens, Borough.

And it's in that area. It's different townships within Queens. Wow. So what was the working relationship with you and Gotti when you guys first met like what was the first interaction like and how did that become a working relationship between you guys well i was known to be a scrappy kid prior to that and you was always fighting you were a fighter yeah i was a fighter was always in the gyms but i was a fighter in the street more so i wasn't a big guy was a small guy it was good with my hands and uh most of the guys from my neighbor were tough

you know i'm not the only guy that was fighting in our neighbor and everybody fights whether the good fighters or not they fight okay and jamaica avenue where i was from was uh more of a poverty stricken area, lower middle class, I guess, lower class, depending on where you live. Jamaica Avenue? Jamaica Avenue. It's Queens. Okay. And where the Gaudhys live, where Howard Beach was more of a money area.

So some of those kids from that area would come up to Jamaica Avenue where the Ruggiano family was from and where I was from. And they started nickname in our area for the violence it was and Death Haven instead of Woodhaven. Wow. So as time progresses, the kids are all meeting each other through sports. boards through activities through, you know, different things. And Goddys were one of the names and one of the families that were around the area would come up to our area. And we started mixing with each other and continued in criminal enterprise.

We were all on the streets, either selling drugs, moving money, bookmaking, hurting guys and hustling. Wow. That was our everyday life. I mean, this is what goes on in high areas. Okay. So you guys kind of like you guys rubbed shoulders. You guys knew a lot of the same people. and then how did he did he was he the one that approached you and said hey i want you to

be my hitman or did he say hey i got a job for you how did he introduce you into the into his life he was dealing drugs with another guy johnny gabbitt they were moving uh pot and small stuff not really small levels but you know nothing major major truck loads but you know 100 pounds they were buying at a time 200 pounds to you know something like that and uh that was his partner and Gebbett also knew me, lived around a corner from me. So I first moved, meet the son that way. The father I meet through some of his associates and older guys and through his son. And I start mixing with them.

They're big heroin movies. And they ask me to get involved in a heroin trade. So I start slowly getting involved in heroin besides a pot business, marijuana, cocaine. And like any business, you expand. So you start in one drug and we're expanding all over and I'm moving drugs. Okay. From a small level to a big level. Okay.

And from there, I just step into the violence. It's just a slow process of... So you started making quite a bit of money moving drugs? Oh, yeah, we're all making money, big money. Really? Yeah, we come in from... You know, I was probably at the time I was talking about a million a month and... Holy shit.

You know, and I think that's low-borne and being conservative. So different guys that were around with us did interviews and said that that number is not right. It's higher than that. Guys that actually were my friends and later on became my enemies, guys I shot. that spoke up and did interviews and said, I think John's on the plane the amount of money they were making and how violent he was. But I mean, everybody's going to have an opinion of what was accurate or what wasn't.

But the accurate number, I think, is safe to say about a million a month. Holy crap. And how did you transit? So what transitioned you from making money dope dealing to, like, were you actually, like, getting paid to execute people? Well, it doesn't really work like that. I don't know how it works. I'm ignorant to it.

I'll walk you. I'll walk you through it. Give me a- I give you an example. I'm a drug deal. You're a drug deal. Somebody tells me you're moving drugs in the neighbor. It's not that I'm sitting there pedaling, you know, quarter keys, keys, grams on the corner.

There's people that are work room for us. And if they tell me about a guy like yourself, we'll approach you, find out what you're doing. And you're told to do business with us for us. And I'll give you guys that run around the street. If you don't do business with them, you know, you're going to jeopardize yourself, whether you're going to get hurt or killed, depending on what you do. And so in the middle of us doing business, everyday business, guys are getting killed, guys are getting shot, guys are getting hurt to expand our business. To expand the business. To expand the business.

It's always to preserve it. Anybody's challenging it. And it's not just the drug business. It's the same for the sports business, union business. So depending on what the issue is. is, you know, the whoever's in charge at the time, whether it's, you know, fat Andy Ruggiano, whether it's Gotti or whoever's calling the shots, they'll delegate work to guys like me and different guys to go out and we, you know, we'll either collect their money,

shooting guys, moving drugs, bookmaking, and hustle in the streets. So we're controlling our streets under the flag of the Gambino family. And this is everyday life for us. Wow. How old were you when you first shot some? somebody. I first shot somebody who was probably around, I guess, 18, something like that, 18, 19. And that's got to like seriously do something to you when you're doing something when you're doing that that young. Like violence at that age. It's got to change. It's got to.

You know, you grow up in an area where I was one of the slow walkers, what you would say, as far as committed crimes or killing or hurting guys. Actually, I had a slew of friends, cousins. My cousins. my friends, they were all a lot more dangerous than me. So I was a little more of a slow walker. Okay. And as crazy as that seems, I mean, later on, I bypass everybody and I start becoming the guy that's doing all this work. And one by one, my cousins are getting killed.

My friends are getting killed. And I'm out doing the work and killing and moving towards the hierarchy of the Gambino family. Wow. How many people would you say that you were in a job? up shooting or killing. You know, again, I just spout it out, spooked out on the value entertainment, names, places, dates, witnesses of what I did. And I held back probably about 25 shootings.

But I could continue with. And, you know, we're doing shows, movies and a lot of that stuff and dates and times and places. We're saving for the actual films that are coming out. We're doing a series coming out. Yeah, I guess that's a big question. I mean, I mean, judging by, you know, that your past and like the violence and all the criminal violence that you were involved in and all the shootings and killings and the jail time you did, I mean, obviously those are super interesting stories. But so why do this?

So why come out in the media and why talk about all this and tell the story? Like, why do this? Well, because here's one of the reasons. When I first was in court during the trials, the Gotti family, their lawyers said I shot about 60 guys. So I never denied how many people I shot, how many people I heard, how many people I had baseball bat it, stabbed. I mean, I was very famous for saying, yes, I did. You know, so I don't deny that walk I took in the streets.

But, you know, one of the things people know that I do now is try to help kids not to follow that path and follow those footsteps and save themselves a lot of pain and anguish and maybe save their life. So I'm out there publicly doing talks. at colleges, at schools, high schools, at juvenile centers. And my thing is to try to help some kids save their lives

around the world. And, you know, I've been around the world. I do talks in Switzerland. I've done talks in the U.K. I've done them in New York, New Jersey, Philadelphia. This area in Tampa, Florida, and I'm very public doing lectures all over and trying to, you know, give people

the real of what goes on within the streets, what goes on within the the mafia and murders. And, you know, the everyday life of being a criminal. And you also said that you're pretty close friends with Sammy the Bull. Sammy is a guy that obviously was an underboss of the Gambino family. Most people know him. If you don't know him, you can look him up.

And he's just recently done an interview and value entertainment, which I also done a couple weeks prior to him. And you get the basis of his story, mine. And some of the things we discuss and talk about. And Sammy was very powerful underbors and the Gambino. Beano Fam, a very powerful guy in the street, and he was betrayed. And, Dorn, you know, the problem with the street and the street world is people that don't really understand it, and they watch some TV or they listen to these shows, they think

they really understand what you sign up for and how treacherous it is, and they really don't get it. But if you sat at a table with us or you came in a room like this and you sat with us, that opinion that everybody spools out so easily on a computer would, you know, we're not. would be, uh, slipped back about 30 steps. They wouldn't be speaking like that. So, you know, the guys that do understand their life and understand the treachery. It's, uh, McAvelli times 20, if you know what McAvelli is, if you ever read.

And it's, it's a treacherous life. And the reason why we're out here doing this stuff, obviously, some of the things I do, magazines, movies, series, TV series, you do get paid for. But the, the, uh, the drive for me to do this or any of the things I do, with schools are out of trying to help kids and it's not for money. It's not monetary. I don't get paid for it and that I'm not trying to get paid for it. So it's just for kids to help save somebody's life, hopefully.

That's strong of you, man. I mean, I appreciate you doing that. I appreciate you taking your time to share these stories. I mean, what kind of lesson, like if you could talk, go talk to yourself back then, if you could say something to yourself back when you were 18 years old, like, what was the biggest lesson that you learned from that whole experience from when you first started drug dealing and shooting people and all your time in prison like what's been your biggest lesson well my biggest lesson if i can wake up again and be 14 years old and innocent i'd be saying to myself what the

fuck are you thinking yeah you know because when i wake up and you know most kids are going to the beach i was going to train i was going to run i was going to do push-ups and work out to play baseball I was a full, you know, I was a big ball player, baseball player, boxer. But I took all those training tips and it became a violent guy, you know, batting guys, taking guys heads off, stabbing guys. And really, I'd have to say exactly what I just said. And I repeat it, what the fuck am I thinking? Why am I out there not enjoying life?

And that's the message, really, when you're talking to kids, is there's so many good things you can do with yourself, go to the beach. Life's beautiful. Travel. Go to country to country. I did, but don't do it the way I did. Yeah, but you need money to do all that, right? Well, not necessarily. I mean, there's kids all, you know, that go, especially in European kids, they go abroad and they go from a hostel, a hostel, they go to a group of kids. You save a couple

of bucks. You go by train, you hike, you walk, you take buses. You can do it on a cheap route, but go experience the world. That's the difference. And I mean, listen, you can always, you know, there's kids at young kids, you know, deliver newspapers, uh, go hustle around, legitimate, be a way to be a bus boy, you know, working stores. you know, work on trucks, whatever. Yeah. You don't need 100 grand to go travel Europe. You can get cheap tickets and go live life.

But the idea is the more you experience life, the more you experience different countries, you understand the world a little better. And maybe you wouldn't risk your life so easily like a lot of us do. Yeah. And, you know, you get a lot of the inner city kids that I speak up for that, you know, you talk about Oprah Winfrey, we'll use for an example.

And the inner city kids, you're out in Africa. and I feel bad for what goes on in Africa. But if she wants to donate money, what's wrong with our kids here in the United States? Donate it here, help the kids here, help the school system, and help everybody get in the right direction. There's a lot of famous people out there

that do the right thing, and she is one of them. But I think it needs to start here in our country where there's so many kids that need a help in hand. And I think that's where it should start, not outside the country. Can you kind of give me the gist, or give me the backstory of what the relationship was between you and John Gotti Jr.? Well, you know, I was a guy that was putting in position to, you know, take care of him, protect him,

and we had fallen outs over the years. His father was in a position, whether you like him as a boss or not, became a boss. And although I disagreed on his leadership in a lot of ways, he was a gangster. The son, on the other hand, was what I call spoiled brat. Right. Guys make fun of him, call him diaper dawn now and different things because of what he does with the media as far as, you know, social media I'm talking about. He doesn't get on. They just made a movie about him, right?

They did a movie. He made a movie about his father. It tanked. About his father. Okay, with John Travolta. John Travolta. It was a disaster of a film. They say it was the worst film ever in the history of me.

mob. Really? Again, because the son tried to hold and control what was, you know, being written, how it was being written. And, you know, he destroyed whatever they were trying to do with the movie by trying to control it. So this is the problem with him. He doesn't do anything where he comes out in a positive manner.

He tries to help some kids. Doesn't come out and be truthful. You know, we have to. Just what I did, I had to catch him as an informant. and there's no, listen, you're in a format. There's no way to back out of that. You're a queen of the day. There's no way to say, I only rat it a little bit or, you know, these ridiculous comments.

And I hate to always go into it about him because he's nothing to me. In my country, in Albanian, there's a terminology for a barking dog. You know, you ever see these little dogs like a little chihuahua when they don't stop yapping and barking. And, you know, we say just keep walking and keep walking past him. That dog's going to be barking forever. So, you know, he's a barker. He's a guy that, you know, never did no work if, you know, he wasn't violent in the street. The guys like me did that stuff.

And he's on a poor me syndrome. Nobody wants to hear that, you know. Stand on you on two feet. Say, listen, I lived a life. I shouldn't have. We dealt drugs. Yeah, maybe I didn't buy my own hand go out and hurt all these guys. But guys like me did.

And, you know, do something positive. Kids stop whining. crying, stop blaming your father for putting you in his life. Yeah. And then you tried to, you know, make money off your father's legacy or whatever. You, whether you agree with the lifestyle of his father or how he led, which, you know, I'm not a big advocate as him as a leader. But the father was who he loves.

Of him or his dad? The father's leadership. Right. I mean, the son, I don't even, really, I don't even like talking about him anymore. No. There's really not much to say or there's something left to say. Do you think that you guys will ever mend the relationship? I mean, you guys were pretty good friends at one point, right?

I don't know if we were friends. I know the media said we were friends. I said, you know, at times, yeah, we were friends. But, you know, I work with him. It was a working relationship. And, you know, I, it depends on how I feel that day, I say, I babysit him. You know, he's just a spoiled guy. You know, until he faces the truth about himself, that he was spoiled,

that he was kind of a bratty kid, food sped, you know, fed and spoon fed. and, you know, I'm not going to have too many good things to say about him until he steps up, you know, he becomes a man and does the right thing with kids and, you know, stops bullshit and everybody and, you know, just say, hey, listen, if there's a way to change that you were queen of the day, I just want to know about it, but there really is no way to change that. You were queen of the day, well, I was in penitentiaries and other guys, and you started talking, giving us up.

We don't know exactly how many times you met, and we don't know if it was for years with you were an informant and there's no way changing that you took yourself in and met with the government and you're trying to spin it somehow and there's no street guy not one that will say anything different but that he was an informant and cooperator rad

or any dumb word that he uses so the term queen of the day is basically a rat or a snitch yeah same thing yeah well you I've never heard that one before yeah it's well you're not a gangster so that's true good observation so So if you're in the street, we all know what it.

There's no excuse for it. You made an appointment to meet the government. You're queen of the day. You're a rat, snitch, whatever, inform it. So guys like, and that's the thing. He's trying to sell something to guys like you that don't know what all this is. Okay. So gangsters know what it is and street guys or criminals.

And so, you know, there is no change. And the problem is with most kids, younger kids, when they get involved in the street, they don't understand informants. They don't understand. with the staying with 10 kids, they'll think that somebody's never, you know, he's a stand-up guy or by the street mentality, stand-up guy and he's not going to talk to the police. But then there's three cores of the guys are going into the police and they're giving information and people don't know it. And as time goes on. Yeah, because you, yeah, I mean, it seems like one of like

the number one rule when it comes to any kind of, any kind of street business or anything, the number one rule is you never snitch, you never flip. right because that's that's your dignity that's that's everything right that's what you're judged on that's the number one thing you're judged on so no one if you want to if you want to make it in an organized crime or if you want to be in the mob if you flip you're a dead man right yeah i mean listen by in simple ways the way you're saying it the belief on the street is that but that's just my perspective yeah i mean listen that's the problem is it's most kids perspective okay and and they don't understand the street so when they're on the street and your partners with a guy and

and he's stealing half the money or he's not giving you the fair share. So there's where it starts, right? He starts taking a little extra and he doesn't tell you in your partner's room. So that's one problem. Okay. Who goes on the street, greed. Second problem is guys start stealing each other's girlfriends and women when they're not around. So that's the second part.

There's the second part of no loyalty. Third part is when something dangerous goes on and it's going to be you're going to get shot or he's going to get shot, you're going to run and let him get shot. Fourth part is guys are going to, as soon as they run it to little, problem with their girlfriend or boyfriend or mother or father may be involved with them they're going to sell you out to protect them so there is no real code of honor like everybody thinks it's garbage and uh you know the the the telltale for everything read them i don't care what religion you are read the korean read the bible read whatever uh if you're buddhist yeah uh money is evil right

and this is what the problem is money is controlling the streets and as long as money controls the streets The loyalty isn't to your friend or to your partner or to the organization. It's to the dollar bill. And instead of following a path where you can make a dollar bill the right way, everybody's trying to take a shortcut and at the same time, they're selling each other out left and right. And it's not something I'm talking about and somebody says, oh, he's full of shit.

Just go look at history. Go follow religion and watch all the murders that go on through history. Follow the wars, follow the Roman Empire, and see what everything's about. watch a movie like The Braveheart and see what it's about being taxed and taking money from the poor. And then it's also about watch somebody that has no money, the inner city kids. And when they get jammed up or locked up, watch how many years they get compared to some

rich kid that's got the money like Gotti did to deceive and lie and inform and wheezel his way out and pay his way. So, you know, it's not structured fairly. And the world's not fair. So if you want to level the ground in a fair way, go to work the right way, and you don't have to worry about all those things they just spoke about. Right, right. And take the right path, because it's easy to take the wrong path. I mean, listen, I took the wrong path my whole life.

I've been stabbed up. I've been shot. I've been batted. I spent 18 years in prisons. I spent probably a good last 10 years of my life in prisons. Without a yard, I didn't see a yard. I was locked up 23 hours a day, 24. I shower three, four days a week at best,

and I spent probably seven years in solitary confinements. So when people say, you know, fuck you or they don't want to hear what you got to say, listen, I can't make everybody listen, but I hope the people that are suffering a little bit or people that have jammed up with cases or people are thinking about going that way, take a second stance and say, you know, I don't want to end up in these prisons.

I don't want to be shot in the head because, you know, I can maneuver guys all over. That's what I did for a living. I get friendly with you. And after I get friendly with you, you think you're involved with us, and I shoot you in your head. It's done just as easy as that.

And if I know you had $300,000 in your house, well, there's your life was worth to me, $300,000. Your life's finished. So if you think there's a code between guys and there's guys a lot more vicious than I am. So that's the reality of the street. Holy shit.

It's not all my stories. You can go listen. at the podcast. Yeah. A podcast, a different mob, true life stories of different mobsers

that are talking. When they go to jail and, you know, their partners are rich and they're sitting in jail doing the time for another guy. That other guy that's out there making money,

he's not helping his family like he promised. He's not doing anything. He's not visiting him in prison. He's not stepping up and doing anything to help that guy get through a time. And you're going to hear these stories.

They're going to hear guys sleeping with guys, wives and girlfriends. These are regular stories. These are, you know, this is not something that we don't know, that we don't, you know, think, wow, that's a big surprise that happened to the guy. Right. And every time I hear another guy telling the story, I want to say, well, this is exactly what we already know about, you know. So I'm a guy that's been in prisons and I've been international.

I have friends in every country. You name a country and I'll tell you, I could get you in touch with somebody in that country. So, you know, I'm not just some neighborhood gangster. You know, I was a guy that travel. I just came back from traveling four countries. I probably, since I've been home, went to about 25, 30 countries. So I know the world. I know people everywhere, every country.

So how did you transition from New York and Florida to going overseas? What were you doing overseas? Well, you know, since I'm a kid, you know, I had friends in different positions, different mob families outside of the Gambino and the Italian Mafia. So I had organizations that were friends with me from the Columbia, which I was doing business and a cocaine business. Okay. I have a friend of mine, Klaus, that did a business with me since the early 90s with marijuana

or from California, from Denmark. So we're still good friends. I got friends that were the bosses and families ran things in the UK like the Sabini's that I'm still friends with. So I can go through my Albanian culture. I'm Albanian. We're a very rough, hands-on kind of culture, very violent. Oh, yeah. We come from a suppressed country from the Ottoman.

days till Turkey taking us over to communism. So, you know, I have friends in Albania and guys that weren't business with me for years that are back in that country, Italy. So I can go on with country to country, Germany, Switzerland. So, you know, these are all partners and friends of mine over the years that weren't all these countries. So I traveled those countries. I had hooks in those countries. Canada, I have hooks in those countries. And we did business, whether it was through money, whether it was through drugs, whether it was through sports, whether it was helping each other if a friend of mine had a problem in the UK, which he did, and somebody came to the United States, he asked me to go hurt him from my debt. So we reached a lot further than a typical,

you know, a lot of these mob guys never leave the neighbor to Queens, Brooklyn, Staten Island, Manhattan, wherever. And I had the ability because of some of the contacts I have around the world to have the ability to do what I want. And I also did it in a good way. I have the ability to go visit those countries and hang out, drink, and have some fun. So I choose my life a little different now to have some fun drink and talking about, you know, different things in those countries. And I'm doing shows and magazines about prison in Brazil. And some of the guys that were in prison with me in Brazil are from the UK.

They just did a show with me in the UK. And they talked about exactly how dangerous the jails were there and how they survived through me in those prisons. The prisons in Brazil? Yeah, I was in three different penitentiaries. In Brazil, three different prisons in Brazil. Yeah. What was that like? Like, can you give me just one instance?

Well, yeah, I get you. One specific story about a Brazil prison experience. So, you know, when guys say to them, you know, you watch movies at concentration camps. Yeah. You watch movies in the Army. And it's no different than that. We were in a Brazilian penitentiary. And when they come crashed through those doors during the riots and they come in with

scheme ass and I'm talking about military police, police, police. SWAT teams in those countries. They'll strip us down. We're all naked. Guns to our heads. You're beat up a little bit. You're pistol whipped a little bit. Depending if you're the wrong inmate and the wrong cop.

But guys are getting beat up all over. The guys are getting raped within the jails from the guards. And we're brought into a, some occasions, we're brought into a dock like a gymnasium, but there's no lights. And it's probably 120 degrees in there, 115 degrees. And some of these guys that were with me in the UK

are starting to come out and speaking because they didn't like what the God, he tried to project about the prisons that we were in and he tried to underplay how many killings were in these jails and I'm talking about dozens of them. Why would he try to do that? I don't know. I guess you're going to have to ask them that

if you ever do an interview with anybody. And, you know, these things like we're doing here, they're not, you know this obviously. You can ask any question you want. I don't prearrange him. Right. I talk just from the heart. I talk out of experience.

He's not able to do that because he's lied so often. And he talks out of school and he doesn't realize there's guys all over the world that were in those prisons with us, that we all stay in touch with each other. We just had a reunion. You were the guys like the feet on the ground guys. You guys were in the trenches together. Yeah.

And you know, you got guys from Turkey that were with us, Spain that were with us, Denmark that was with us, a couple Italian guys from Italy that were with us. So when someone talks like he does and he tries to bullshit the public a little bit, these guys just came out of the woodwork and we're looking to do some shows now on the Brazilian penitentiaries that we were in,

some of the riots, some of the things that I just spoke about the rapes, an inmate being hung and accused of committing a crime, he didn't commit. So, excuse me, I get it. No, it's okay. If you need to answer it, you can answer it.

No, I don't need. Okay. So you have guys coming out of woodwork and they weren't happy with some of the things that were said. And they wanted to set the record straight At the same time, they're starting to do podcast shows about their experience in these prisons, how they survived them, how they credited me for some of the violence I committed in those prisons to save them and some of the stabbings I did.

And some of the killings they witnessed, some of the rapes they witnessed, and the conditions of rats all over the cells and poison and mosquitoes like crazy. Some of the people they seem died because we were so below. in a cage that was like I guess like the old days torture chambers almost of the castles you see in the movies you really can't understand because these these prisons like a state senator from Brazil

said he wouldn't want to spend the day there you'd rather die first so these are documented well documented the torture was well documented and the murders after it from prisons after guys were getting killed and tortured they were sending guys out from the street to kill those same guards that were torturing, raping.

Really? The guards and the police officers started wearing masks, black ski masks so people who know their face. But some of the organizations in Brazil, they were very violent on the street. Yeah. Started ringing their doorbells when they answered them. They were shooting them in their head to try to get even for what they were doing in the prison system. I mean, this is all seen and documented stuff. And I was in some of the prisons they talk about.

and some of the guys that we meet with with discussing obviously a TV series about it and these guys from these countries saw some of the things obviously were involved in what I was involved in and I got off course when we were in those rooms it was probably 500 guys 600 guys in a caged-in room

nowhere to shit, nowhere to piss and we all of us as selectively would select one place in the corner no toilet paper no shirts because we're naked and we're brought in there like I said like a concentration camp and we you know you're stepping and walking on pissing shit but we try to limit it to one corner because we're there from some mornings when they do these attacks on the inmates we're there from six in the morning say till 10 at night there's nowhere to sit nowhere you're standing and you're suffering and guys are passing out and guys uh you know some guys

and some occasions were dying from the air quality couldn't breathe and uh i mean these are no secrets to the international world of what went on in some of these jails we were in. And it's no secret because it was documented in TV shows with CNN and News Associated Press across the world. And some of these guys got in touch with me. Thank you to Gary. Really? I got to say thank you to Gotti for that because they didn't know how to get in touch with me. And when we were in the media, they seen it.

They reached out and got a hold of someone. I got a hold of my daughter and said, we need to speak to your father. He saved our life. in prison. And she said to me, Dad, do you know who Justin is? And do you know who O is? And she started giving me names. And I said, yeah, why?

And she said, I didn't know if it was real or not. They reached out to me on Facebook and said, your dad saved our life and we want to talk to him. So this is some of the guys. And we're very, you know, we never forget each other because we went through hell with each other. And we had a certain bond. And that one of our reunions was just left.

week in the UK and we discussed with a guy who was played Captain America actually in the UK for Britsio Santini and we talked to him about maybe get involved in a project with us and and my life story and some of the things that we're thinking about doing so you know out of things that are bad sometimes things a lot of positive I mean you got to make it positive and really that's the bottom line I really don't care for Gotti too much is because because he's a guy that wants to sit and shit, right? He doesn't want to turn things around that do something positive. And if he started talking well and talking to children and talking to kids about not being in a life, maybe, or not being in the street, you can sell your own bullshit store all you want.

I mean, we can't change who we were and what we did. That's not going to change, obviously. So we've got to live with that. But let's sell something different to the kids now. Yeah. Kids that are suffering or, you know, there's kids that I know real. tough street kids that talk to me, send me messages. They're involved in the street and I try to talk about a street.

Yeah, that's hard to do. Right. You know what? Because maybe they're not ready. Some of them are. I mean, I get dozens of letters out of prisons all the time. Guys, you know, you know, commend to me for what I do. And there's guys that are in prisons that are never going to change but say, you know,

tell me, keep doing your thing. So, you know, there's a lot of positive guys out there in the prison system that believe in what I'm doing. and I guess the negative people are always going to be negative. I can't change that. It's a different breed of person. Someone who has kind of been handed everything they have, they never really had to suffer for it or really work for it.

You know, it's just something that you can't really teach. They're just different. You know what I mean? There's a different breed. When you've had to go through hell and you've had to earn everything that you have, there's a disconnect there between someone else who's just been given everything. I'm not saying that you guys are, he's that or you're the opposite. I know what you're saying. I'm just saying it's...

Listen, I can tell you this. At my age and growing up in jails the way I did, I was a young kid the first time I went, I met some tough, tough guys in prison. So when guys think they're tough out in the street, you can think you're tough all you want. When you get into all these prisons, there's so many tough guys in there. There's so many dangerous guys in there. There's so many killers in there. You know, there's nothing in there just like anybody.

else you're just another number you're another guy trying to get through the day and you're the reality of the real tough guys in prison the real street guys in prison the guys that say to themselves i don't want to see my kid ever spend a day here because we understand what it is so the guys that say anything different than that you let me know who he is when you see some jack off and on the internet and they're writing some dumb shit about the code i'm gonna tell that fucking guy that's writing about the code First of, you never lived, you live, you never lived the code. You don't have no idea what our life's about. Because there's definitely going to be comments on this talking shit.

Well, you always get dummies that talk shit. You can't stop that. Yeah, people that hate their lives, they just want to. Well, they want 10 seconds of attention. So you can give it to them. But if they want that attention like that, well, go jump in, get to jail. Right, right. And we're going to see how tough you on see if you're talking.

I'm not going to do that. They don't have the nuts to do that. But what I was getting at is these inmates that are in jail and there's thousands and thousands, right? across the country, every country. You're not going to find one that's going to send a message out different to their own children. They don't want their kids living this life.

So, you know, if we could all talk to kids and guys in, and I'm talking about inmates that are in death row, inmates that are in supermax jails, any, if you ask any of them, there's none of them are going to say, oh, this is a great life. I want my kid in the street. Right. So, you know, we did what we did. They did what they did. I'm in a position whether somebody likes me or dislikes me.

I can't change that. And when someone says, well, this guy hurt so many guys, oh, he's full of shit, he didn't hurt that many. I really don't give a fuck, you know. So these are guys that are, you know, bullshit bitch guys that talk like this. And, you know, they're not tough guys. They're not men.

And when they're talking like this, well, I want to tell that same big mouth that says something different or the code, go put your fucking kid on the street. All right. If that's what you believe, tough guy, go put, but I'm going to tell you something else. Any of the real tough guys? Because there's a lot on the street and in jail.

They're not going to be writing on your computer about it in the show. Hell no. This is just jerk off the talk like that. Yeah. That's true. That's a fact. Now you said how much time did you do in solitary? I probably did.

I never count the day for day, but I've done probably about seven years in solitary confinement. I didn't see a yard. Not continuous. That was just totally. I was in and out of them, but I'll tell you what. I was in Brazil penitentiary for two and a half years. I had seen a yard once a month, naked. In my underwear at best, no shoes.

not that I'm rocks. And it's not a yard like you see, a yard. I'm not talking about a yard. I'm talking about high security, gun patrols. They're up in the towers, dogs all over you. And it's, I guess, the size of a basketball court at best. I got that once a month. Otherwise, I was caged in.

I never left the cells. I was in cells with 54 guys that fit 12 guys, sometimes higher than not in the 60s. It rained inside the cells. They had water that went up to our knees. at points during the storms. There was blackouts, complete no lights. So, you know,

that was the conditions. And I came to Florida, I was out on the tears for a while, but you're on tears that you don't go out to a yard. What does that mean? Tears? Tears are your double-level tiers in Florida prisons. And you don't really leave that part. Then I went

to solitary cells for a couple years, and then I was in MCC, forced into a unit where there's nine cells on the floor and you're not leaving those cells. And you're stuck there 24 hours and you go up on a basketball court at night for about an hour, three days a week. So I never seen an actual yard.

So that was 10 years of that. Prior to that, I was in and out of solitary confinement for fights, six months at a time, eight months. I did about a year straight at another time. So, yeah, I spent my fair share of time in solitary confinement. And listen, I'm no different because you hear guys complaining about it. But when you're a high-profile inmate, which I was, I was chased down by Interpol in every country. And when you're killing guys and hurting guys, I'm no different than a lot of these guys.

We're all going to the same thing. So what I'm saying is it's not a life to live like a dog in a cage. Right. And showering in with a camera watching you. And, you know, you're on these secure cells. So there's cameras in the room. You take a shit. They're watching you.

Yeah. You feel horny that day and you want to jerk off, they're watching you. So this is the life that you chose to lead. So when a guy talks out of school and you're going to get dummies that talk like that all the time, they have no idea about how I lived in a lot of inmates, just like me. It's not poor me, only I did that. It happens to all of us. We all go on diesel therapy, meaning they ship you from, they used to book me into my cell here in Florida, right?

This is when they brought me back. Diesel therapy? These are what they would do to me. They bring me to a jail on Wednesday. Okay. I wait all day and get checked in through booking. So you're on the floor about eight hours waiting and fingerprinted and chained up. And they bring you to a holding cell and they bring you to your solitary confinement cell.

You get in there Wednesday night and you can't order commissary because you just came in. By Sunday, instead of letting me order because they come around with the commissary lists and I can fill them out, I'm moving again. They're going to ship me to another job. and we're going to do it all over again. And when they ship me in, and this is constant for me for a good year, and I didn't see no commissary, didn't see no books, I didn't have no radio. So when guys talk about how the life is and how they can talk,

they have no clue. They're clueless because they didn't go through all this. And I'm not the only guy. I'm one of the guys of high security inmates that are known to be dangerous were moved around with belly chains and chains on our legs, our feet on our hands with black box where you can't move also and possibly get out of those handcuffs. This is typical treatment of any of us that are in those positions. So when someone says, like, they're the only ones. That's bullshit too. That's, you know, maybe the average

inmate don't go through this, but we do. So, you know, these are the things that you're trying to tell. And there's some serious killers in prisons now that write me and stay in touch with me on a regular basis and are never getting out. And these guys are guys that are saying to me, brother, keep doing what you're doing. Really? Save some kids.

Yeah, because, you know, only hate us don't want to see this. Right. You know, when people are jealous or people hate another man's life, they want to see that person suffer, right? So I see you doing good. Should I bring you down or should I pick you up? So I choose to pick you up.

Yeah. You know, if you want to get it. I've done a lot of people who like to talk down and and shove you in the dirt and tell you're nothing. Well, I don't know if you're a fighter. Do you fight? Do you get into fights? No, I don't get into fights.

I used to do, I've done like, uh, jiu-jitsu and that kind of shit, but I've never been, I've been, I've been in like two street fights in high school. Well, I'm going to tell you, did you get paid for those two street fights? Hell no. Yeah, so why would you want to fight? Exactly. Okay. And you're going to tell me that you can beat everybody up in the street?

Of course not. Can I? Of course not. These guys out there every day can beat up the next guy. I use Mike Tyson as an example. Uh-huh. Toughest guy around. And there's idiots that get drunk that want to fight them.

I mean so you know and same with him he lost plenty of fights the idea of fighting the street was it getting here and he says you're going to run it to a jerk off that you drunk or high and he wants to walk away let him fight somebody else eventually he'll run it to the guy he wants that he'll get where he wants he's going to beat him up right but if you're not getting paid for it why you bother doing it right so you know and jiu jiu jitzo and the things you're in those are positive reinforcements they learn to teach you to respect the sport not disrespect the sport and the idea of me telling you do you fight I respect you the same way if you never got to a fist fight in your life right that's not a judgment of being a man or not right judgment

being a man is being gentlemen go to work do the right thing and pass a positive message right right you know it's easy to pass a a bullshit message I can I can soup up and you know I probably got one of the strongest guys in as far as having a following in every country I can soup guys up all over and have guys using guns and shooting people for me. I could, if I felt like taking Godi tomorrow, it's that easy. And if somebody says anything different, then they don't know what the fuck they're talking about. And just in my culture, guys will do anything I want when I want. I don't live that life anymore.

So, you know, my message isn't about Godi or guys like Goddy. My message is for those guys that are prisons, the inner city kids or the tough guys in those prisons that are sending messages out to me. John, keep doing what you're doing. Save some kids' lives because our lives were ruined. Let's not help these kids not ruin this. Right. You know, you talk about Godi.

And I think I said this earlier. I hit on Gotti before, you know, before we wrap it up is, you know, some of his family members are really guys that their family suffered. And, you know, I've talked about. Godi, you're talking about Godi's family members? Yeah, yeah. Some of them also in the life and jails and some of their kids and some of the things that went on. I want to see him tell somebody this was a good life. I want to see him say, you know,

oh, I want my son in this life. Right. Because there's nobody who's going to say this. So if you can find me one, I'd love to get on the air with you with him. I'll come and meet him and sit down. Someone who's proud of that life? What dummy wants their kid in that life?

Right. Call your father, call each kid. And there's kids out there that don't have parents that aren't able to anybody to tell them this. but those kids that don't have parents there's no excuse to be in the street I use as an excuse I have parents but

you know none of us come from a perfect life and my parents weren't the greatest parents in the world. Nobody's parents are perfect and we're not perfect but to push somebody in the street you've got to be a real scumback so I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing

I'm not pushing no kid that way I'll push him this way and hopefully I can reach some and some adults too and you know people ask you well he's talking about this gangster. I know a lot of gangses. No one's ever going to say, you're not going to hear me deny

that I'm not friends with a lot of gangses. But I'm not choosing their path for them. They can choose their own. If that's what they choose, unfortunately, I think eventually they're going to suffer their path they're taken, right? But I'm not going to choose. I mean, they're friends when we joke around

and, you know, I use the word, I'm retired, right? That's my word. You're retired? So I'm retired. You look like you still put a beating on somebody. You know, listen, I work out. every day.

Push-ups in the gym. I box still. I'm still playing around with bags and all that. But, you know, it's in a positive way again. You're getting a ring. You play around with guys

and you're, you know, if you were in a ring and you're sparring. Right. Without the attitude of the street. The street is, like I said, listen, I'm involved in a fight business. I'm friends with a lot of professional fighters

and, you know, we joke about it all the time because there's guys out in the street have no idea some of these guys are and they want to fight them. So, you know, they say the same thing I'm saying, you want to fight, you can fight all day, go to gyms every day, you can find a million guys to fight. You're that insecure, go to a gym.

Right. You know, so, but that, you know, my message is that. And hopefully, you know, some of the things I'm doing now is going to be the magazines and the shows and the TV series. They're all coming now. So this year is going to be a great year. I got a new book coming out. Yeah, tell me about your book.

What's it called? Darkest Hour 2. It's coming out with Susan Pike is my writer. I did Darkest Hour 1. It was about when I was a child to 17. Prior to that, I got his rules with George Anastasia. And I have a handbook out called Prison Rules.

The do's and don't so you don't find yourself in prison. Okay. The situation for adults, young kids, and for parents that need to try to reach their children, maybe they, you know. And that's a book,

people that are in prison, they can get their hands on? Yeah, all these books are, you know, through the internet, through Amazon, through Barnes & Noble.

And Darkest Hour 2 should be out. by February and that'll be more of hardcore mafia stuff and some of the killings and shootings and things that went on in prison systems. Wow. And so that their book would, I think, will be a little more to the point.

Can you tell me like, what did you have to do? Like, how did you get out of prison so quick? Did you have, like, good behavior? Was there,

I mean, it might have been quick for you, but it wasn't quick for me. I mean, listen, when you're, all right, obviously,

but I mean, what I meant by that was like, you, about 18 years total, right? Yeah, I did. And you were originally sentenced to 30? Well, no, I was facing 30 when I came back. Okay.

And I sat down with the government after I had the paperwork on Godi and some of the other guys had, you know, 54 guys went and testified against me in a grand jury. So, you know. Holy shit. So it wasn't one or two. And then I, on some other shows, and if somebody's interested, they could look what I said. And I named boss after boss that were testifying, given information. So these guys, these guys tried to, these guys betrayed you.

Yeah, they ain't switching this around. They betrayed me. I didn't betray them. By their set of rules, they all ratted. Later on, I come in and I said, that's it after I went through each boss and each captain and they're making statements, all of them against me. And so, you know, without getting into all that crap, people can look at my books and read or watch somebody other interviews and they can see it.

But this is the typical what I said about the treachery of life. I was betrayed. I never betrayed anybody. God, he betrayed me. I was in a penitentiary, even though he was my enemy at that time. He's still betraying what we believed. was the life of a good soldier, a mobster. But that's the reality of what happens.

But I did on this case, back to this, 30 years is Brazil extradition law. When you come back, I'm facing to do 25 years. When I did two and a half years in Brazil, I was supposed to get nine years credit because of the conditions there. Right. So if you give me the nine years that it's supposed to give me, and I suppose to do 25, I'm supposed to do 16 more. Right at it at 16, I took a 12-year sentence. I got it down to 10. So I did a lot of time for what I did actually on, you know, laws.

Because these guys, people don't understand that take pleas on murders and get four or five years or six years. Don't cooperate. Some of them do and they get less. But, you know, when they're in that position and whatever the situation that cases, I know bosses got 10 years. They went on to run. They caught them. They had two separate trials. And they still only got 10 years without cooperation.

Wow. Because of the situation that depends on that have weapons. So we'll get into one last thing before I leave. Okay. I never been caught with any kind of crime. Nothing on this case. On the case that I was facing life and I went on to run and I had the extradition of 30 years. So you know, it's only from what the Goddies or somebody will say, rats.

It was informants. It was only testimony. It wasn't me selling a drug and someone caught me. It wasn't me getting caught with kilos. It wasn't me on an audio tape or videotape. It wasn't me at a shooting or at a killing. It wasn't me getting caught with a user. weapon it wasn't me anywhere so when people use the excuse of uh well it was all rats against me

and everybody's a rat rat rat rat and they talked that they're usually a rat like how he was nobody knocked on my door and said oh we're going to arrest you for all these crimes because we don't like you listen it was people trying to save their own fucking ass yeah and mostly you know the mob guys that testified against me and gave information on the sneak against me and were performance but listen i'm okay with it my life's not at that point anymore i don't give a what they did. I don't really give a fuck what God you did. But don't change the storyline. The storyline is you guys rat had betrayed me. I left this country, left my children, left my family, stood in those concentration camps not to talk against my enemies or my friends who's all

betrayed me and came home and that changed. So when someone says, who betrayed who, I didn't betray anybody by those rules. But those rules and that life's gone for me. Yeah. But we'll keep that record straight that I never got caught. So there's paperwork, they can go check. never been caught with a crime. So I wasn't a talker. And these shows now, my life's different, so I can go on here and talk and be honest on exactly what happened. But I've never been caught with a crime. The ones I got caught prior that with a gun, I did my three and a half years. I did my year. I did my whatever time I did on other assaults and I went to jails from. This case here, RICO, indictment for a life sentence. And I ran and I went to 20 countries when they caught me.

It was only from informant after form it, mob guy after mob guy, maid guy after maid guy, boss of different families, all giving information against me, not the other way around. So somewhere in this public, they switched that around and they thought that, hey, this guy was given now. I left this country. I spent millions of dollars to fight and left my children, fight with lawyers, attorneys, investigators.

I lost my family over this. So when people say I betrayed something, they better do a little more research and find out who betrayed who. And there's nothing. Public information can get caught documents if I've ever been caught with any kind of crime. Nothing. Wow. That's heavy, man.

Dude, I can't thank you enough for coming on here and sharing your story. Yeah, I appreciate it. If you push that message to kids and outside this podcast and keep doing the right thing. Cool. Well, Muta Pofshim. And thank you so much for coming on the podcast, man. It's been awesome.