Danny Jones Podcast - #259 - Human-Alien Hybrids on Earth: Infamous Abduction Victim Speaks Out | Whitley Strieber

Episode Date: September 9, 2024

Watch the bonus show w/ Whitley on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Whitley Strieber is a New York Times best-selling author. His book 'Communion' is an autobiographical account of his experiences with alien “visitors” who have been abducting & experimenting him since childhood. Communion was adapted into a film starring Christopher Walken. SPONSORS https://meundies.com/dannyjones - Get 20% off your first order, plus free shipping. https://pick6.draftkings.com - Use code "DANNYJONES" for $50 in Pick6 credits! https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off. EPISODE LINKS Whitley's YouTube channel: @WhitleyStrieberDreamland https://unknowncountry.com FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny LISTEN ON Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/4VTLG0HiIZaCjH9gE6NFPq Apple - https://itunes.apple.com/podcast/id1441238966 OUTLINE 00:00 - Whitley's implant 09:39 - CIA moles 16:54 - The "Visitors" 27:45 - The military's 'special children program' 37:31 - The Roswell crash 51:56 - Impact of alien disclosure 01:00:51 - Would aliens reveal themselves to us? 01:09:32 - Alien's relationship with time 01:23:53 - Whitley's wife 01:31:13 - Why did the grays choose Whitley? 01:39:17 - Military Black-Project in Mexico 01:48:43 - Hypnosis sessions 01:50:46 - Dr. John Mack 01:53:40 - How death is connected to close encounters 02:03:41 - Whitley's first encounter 02:18:52 - MRI brain scans find alien activity 02:26:27 - Alien rectal probe 02:29:12 - Alien-human hybrid children 02:38:30 - Living next door to aliens 02:48:18 - Alien breeding program 03:00:22 - The Vatican 03:06:36 - Fall of the Roman Empire 03:17:07 - The gospel of Thomas 03:20:22 - Ancient greek medicines & magicians 03:26:06 - Jesus' resurrection debunked 03:30:36 - Motives of the visitors 03:34:23 - Chris Bledsoe Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Try to keep the aliens on their toes. There's a typical close encounter witness. They move around a lot. They all do. I'm not alone. Right. But I've got the visitors living, and not the visitors, but people who are connected to them directly,

living just a short distance from where I am in Santa Monica. The people connected to them. Who's them? The visitors, the grays. Oh, you know people that are connected to them. Of course. I am. I am.

It's what it is. That's why what? The implant in my ear is my, it'll turn on during the interview and you'll be talking to me and to them. You don't have an implant, you're pulling my leg. No, I'm, stop telling you the truth. You don't know about it? You never read the books? I read communion.

Oh, okay, you've only read communion. I've only read communion. Okay, well, let's talk about it. You got 40 books. I mean, I don't have time. Yeah, I understand that. I record like three of these a week. I understand that.

I understand that. Okay, yeah, I have this. Well, I'll tell you this story. I'll just give you a brief process now. Perfect. It was put in in 1989. I was wide awake when it was done. It was done by two people.

People, there's a whole lot of people who were connected with the visitors who are connected with them. And these were two of them. And I couldn't use it for years. But after my wife died, it began to become useful. And it now is my absolute go-to. It's like having an unbelievable AI. Only whatever's on the other side of it is not artificial, but brilliant. And it works with me when I'm writing.

At 3 o'clock every morning, I get up and there's a dialogue that goes on. It's not like channeling. It's much more direct than that. It's very direct. And during interviews, it will be working most of the time. And sometimes it'll turn off in the middle of an interview, which... Turn off? Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Then it's like my mind becomes much smaller. It's what it feels like is your mind gets very large. You have a very large, complex, and all kinds of things are available to your memory that aren't normally there. And then when it turns off, you're back to being your normal cell. Can you see it?

You can feel it, yeah. You can feel it. It's right here, yeah. Have you ever, like, had a doctor look at it? Absolutely. I've got an MRI scan of it, in fact. I'll send it to you on my phone. I mean, a CT scan of it.

Is it online? We can look at it? I'll, let me... You don't want me have to show it right now. You can send it to us after and we can look at it. Yeah, yeah. I'll give it to you afterwards. I can just send it to it's right here.

I have it. And what does it look like on the... A little white dot, because it's metal. And on the CT scan, it looks like a round white dot. You want to see it now? Yeah, sure. Let me see it, yeah. I'd love to see it.

You know, being connected to this doesn't mean I love them. I'm their friend. It does mean that I don't know exactly who I am connected to, but whoever I am connected to is is let me see if I can find it easily And what did

What made you decide to leave it in your ear? My wife? Your wife? My wife at the beginning When I realized the next morning I'll tell you the whole story on the air, I think. Oh, we're rolling. We're up.

Oh, we're up now? We're not live, but we're recording it. Yeah, we're recording this. This is great. Because, yeah, the day after it was put in, I felt it. And I could feel it back in there. It hurt. And, you know, I knew something had happened the night before.

I remember it vividly. I remember every detail. But let me, let me, oh, here it is. Good. Take a look. Okay. You can see it. That's the left side.

That's reversed on a CT scan. See that little white dot on the left? left side. That's the implant. And what did your doctors or whoever did the MRI say about it? The CT scan? The C.T. scan. That C.T. scan was done by someone in the CIA. What? Who wanted it very badly to be taken out, but I wouldn't let him. Yeah. How did you get a CT scan done by somebody in the CIA? No, no, it was done. The CT scan was done privately at his request. by a doctor who he called and set up. Okay. How did a CIA person get to find out about your implant?

I'm known to them to the I see to be a legitimate close encounter witness, and they are interested in that. Why do you think the CIA is so interested in people who have had close encounters? Well, you know, I think they kind of backed into it because their brief is foreign intelligence. And this is about as foreign as foreign intelligence can get. And when the CIA was first founded, the Roswell incident occurred. The Army Air Corps became the Air Force. And the CIA was founded.

And the National Security Act was passed all in the same few months. This was like July, July to October of 47. And so all of the infrastructure was then in place. And I think it was just a very natural thing that CIA would be the go-to agency to study this. And that's what happened. Who was it who was the first guy who studied, worked on it? He became the Russia desk later. Oh, yeah.

I think I know you're talking about. Yeah. Is this the weird desk guy? No, no, no. The Russia desk was, he was, uh, he, anyway, I met him in college before I knew anything about any of this. I had breakfast with him without knowing why. So he already knew that this probably would happen to me when I was in college in the 60s. You randomly met him at breakfast.

No, I didn't randomly meet him. He called me and said that he wanted to. meet me and I said I have classes and he said well why don't we have breakfast and so we went to breakfast together at the Commons and at the University of Texas and he oh I remember now I had told my father who was not a member of the intelligence community but his brother was and he knew a lot of people in it that I was interested in possibly joining the Central Intelligence Agency because I knew a little bit of bit about my uncle's work in the in air force intelligence and it sounded exciting I was an

innocent young kid and dad said as usual closed mouth way okay well um you'd have to fill out an application wouldn't you and I said yeah I would he said well good well go ahead and find see if they'll send you an application and fill it out he sounded real cheerful about it so I went about finding out how to apply and a few days before I even apply this call comes from this man whose name is still blocking me on. Being 79 years old, you have these things with these name blocking. Anyway, this guy calls out of the blue at my dorm. Is it Ron Pendolfi?

No, no, no. Ron Pendelphi was much younger. This was a serious member of the organist. Let me. I'm going to look. he was eventually drummed out because he became obsessed with moles. A lot of moles during the Cold War. Yeah.

Well, I don't know why I can't remember his name. That's okay. It doesn't matter. We can keep going. Yeah. It's probably best not to say too many CIA folks' names on this podcast anyways. Oh, no, it's okay. He's dead and he's well known.

He's nothing new. Oh, okay, got it. It's nothing. I don't say that. I don't want to say any. names of living CIA agents, except the ones who are out, like... Semivand?

Jim Sammy van. I mean, everybody knows. He's in CIA. He makes no secret of it. So, um, um, it was,

uh, well, I can't remember his name. Um, do you want to put your headphones on or do you prefer not to have a one? Does it bother your ear? Well, yeah,

I'm, I'm, it bothers the scene. Okay, a little bit, yeah, because this gets very hot. Okay.

Well, I'm working and, uh, with an headphone only gets a really, So what did the CIA, so the CIA, this guy we're talking about, he told you you needed to get a, well, he said to me that I was too patriotic and that the CIA was infiltrated with Russian moles and I would get killed if I became an officer. You would be killed by a mole? That's what he said, yeah. Because you were too patriotic.

Too patriotic. And I don't know if that was true or not, but it scared the hell out of me because the same. Suddenly I was talking to this little gnomic man in a black suit. And he's telling me that I'm too patriotic and I should not join the CIA because it's full of Russian moles. Right. And I thought, holy God. Eventually, he was fired because of his obsession with Russian moles or forced to retire. A little bit of schizophrenia.

Well, something was wrong with him. But at the time, he was a major guy in the Central Intelligence Agency. see. In the 50s, 60s? 50s and 60s. I know how to find it. I'm going to look on Chat, GPT. Okay. It's just right on the tip of

my tongue. I've probably heard of his name. I had a guy in the podcast named John Newman. He wrote a book called Popov's Mole, all about Russian moles and the CIA leading up to the Kennedy assassination. There was moles that we were

infiltrate. with moles and they were infiltrated with moles. It was crazy. I think they probably had more Russian moles inside the CIA than we had the other way around. I'm sure. You find it?

No, it won't tell me. That's okay. Something bullshit about declassified documents. What specific words? Yeah, he can look it up. Steve's got a... He was... was the CIA Russia desk in the 50s and 60s, and early 60s, and he was eventually drummed out

because of his CIA officer in charge of Russia desk, 50s, 1950s, 1960s. Yes. Harold James. It was Jim Angleton. Oh, oh, James Jesus Angleton. Yeah. Anyway, Jim Angleton. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know a lot about that guy. His son actually lives here in Tampa. He did. He doesn't anymore? What? I think his son lives here in Tampa. Well, anyway, he told me that Jim Angleton told me that the CIA had Russian molds in it and that I would be likely killed because I was too patriotic if I joined it. Wow.

And so, yeah, there he is. Wow, man. He smoked like a chimney. there's anything like it. Anyway, he was, apparently my dad knew him or somehow my name

got to him. How was your dad involved in all this stuff? Your dad was in the Air Force? No, my dad was in the Army during World War II in the Judge Advocate General's Corps, and

he said a number of things about what he did. He said he found rental housing for war widows, women whose husbands were at war. And he also said he picked up cigarette butts on the streets of Fort Sam Houston. And that was his war work. In other words, he wasn't telling the truth. Right. We think, speaking of cigarette butts, I do want to take this opportunity to talk about how good my butt feels whenever I slip into my me undies. Yes, Whitley, I can attest to how good Danny's butt feels. It's fall time, so when I'm hitting the gym this fall,

stank crack is off the table with this moisture wicking beautificity. I sit in my living room drooling on myself because my me undies are just that comfy. Whether it's a football watch party or being blindfolded in the back of a KGB van, I rock my me undies. And this fall I'm upgrading to their specially designed ball caddy for the extra jostle protection. With all those rave parties, football groupies, and interrogation sessions, is non-stick comfort in a uniquely yours style. Me Undies has a cut for every butt. Over 10 different styles from Boxer Brief to Jockstraps and my favorite pouch underwear called the Ball Caddy.

It keeps the batwing at bay for difficult situations like home invasions and walking. I mean, check it out. They've got tons of colors and prints from dinosaurs to black. But they have so much more from joggers to hoodies, the onesies, or you can rock his and hers like twins. It's stretchy, anti-odder, and soft, with responsibly sourced materials. And if you don't like it,

MeUndy says it's on them. Be your most comfortable self this fall with MeUndies and get 20% off your first order plus free shipping. At meundies.com slash Danny Jones. That's meundies.com slash Danny Jones for 20% off plus free shipping. Me Undies. Comfort from the outside in.

Love your balls this fall with Meundies. Didn't you say he was friends with LBJ? Dad was, well, that was also, dad was so secretive. You couldn't tell. He seemed to be his brother-in-law was Attorney General of Texas all through the 1950s, and he used to go out to Odessa to his brother-in-law's house where they would meet with LBJ. And once the whole family went out and took a big family picture, so I know it's real. But dad just never said much of anything about anything. Right. He had a very successful career as an oil operator and a lawyer. He was apparently fluent in Spanish, although I never heard him speak a word of it, because he was an expert at finding Spanish Empire land titles, which is a very important issue in Texas, probably is in Florida too.

What's it called? Spanish, from the Spanish Empire, the land titles that go back. You know, because the titles can be valid all the way back. They weren't ever, the titles, at least in Texas, weren't ever vacated. Right. All of Texas used to be Mexico, right? Right, exactly. And when the Republic of Texas came along, they didn't want to vacate all of the Hispanic people's titles because.

Right, because the USA just swallowed up like a ton of Mexico, right? Yeah, right. Those people, they couldn't just kick those people out. The Republic of Texas and then when it came into the USA, the titles just stayed intact. Got it. Okay. So Dad was an expert at that meaning. He must have known Spanish very well, but he never spoke it in my presence, in my life.

Interesting. As far as this stuff is concerned, I remember him taking me out to the country house to meet these visitors a couple times. Your dad taking you to the country house? Absolutely. To meet what visitors? Well, I don't have any, my memories stop. I'll tell you one of the stories. All of a sudden one day, one evening, he said, we're going to go out to the country house.

To me. And we left. It was, I don't know what time it was, but it felt pretty late to me. I was a little boy. I was probably eight, nine, maybe at most. And I was pretty confused, but I didn't say anything because, you know, I didn't want to contradict my dad. You know, he just told me we were going there. We got there and we went up on to the, it had a big wrap around double porch upstairs and downstairs.

It's a beautiful old house. It's still in the family. And unfortunately, for me, it's in. the I'm the distaff side, so it's in my, it's in my cousin's side, the actual ownership, but I still am allowed to go there any time I want. Any case, we went there, and we went onto the porch, and then out into the front yard. There's a beautiful night, and this thing that was square looking, and very brightly lit, came flying over, the house tumbling over and over and went down into the pasture behind the house and I could see a glow back there.

Dad became completely silent. He was just standing there like he was turned off. And I knew I had to go down there when this car came up to the driveway moving very fast, faster than a normal car could. And it had two lights, but they were not bright. You know, they didn't shine. and they were kind of dull glowing, glowing, they glowed dully. They didn't shine like regular car lights. And it moved very fast and stopped very suddenly. And I immediately knew I had to walk down into the back pasture.

And I, where that glow was. And I did it. But I don't remember anything about what happened there. And that's the last of that memory. I don't remember being taken home or anything, but I guess I was. another thing that happened was, and this one was, I remember pretty vividly, I all of a sudden, after dinner, the family, my father announced that the family was going to the country house, but I was going to stay in San Antonio. And I was 11. And so they all pack up in a car and go driving off 50 miles north of San Antonio, leaving their 11-year-old boy alone. in the house by myself. And, you know, I have my dog, and I watch a little TV.

I get a little nervous and scared, you know, because I've never really done that before. And finally, I go up to stairs to go to bed, and my bedroom had a window air conditioner in it with a window above the sash, the upper sash, was filled in so it couldn't be pulled down. It had been pulled down and all the insulation and others hanging out. And I could see on the roof of the house outside that I was on the second story and there was a first story roof wing beside my room. There was a man standing there. I could see him in the dark. And I'd scared the living daylights out of me.

So I ran downstairs and called the country house and I told my mother answered and I told her that there was a man on the roof. And she said, well, call the police. And I said I would call the police, but there was no 9-11 in those days, and I didn't know how to call the police. So I was looking in the phone book for a number for our local police department, Terrell Hills, Texas, and finally found it. And I called them, and I said, I'm home alone, and there's a man on our roof. And so they sent a police officer, and the following thing happens. Now, this is a little Texas, one-horse town in those days. So maybe he wasn't the best police officer in the world, and maybe that's why this happened.

But he pulls up to the front of the house and he gets out, he's got this huge gun in his hand, and he's walking up, stalking up to the house, looks terrified. And I think, my, what is going on? Why is he already scared? And so he comes into the house and I said, you can see him in the standing up on the roof. and if you go in the bedroom, and I pointed him out, and he goes up the stairs, and immediately comes running down again, yells as he's passing, there's nobody there, there runs back to his car and drives away.

And there I am. And this was when you were how old? 11. 11. 11. And then my next memory is getting my breakfast the next morning and having them come in before noon. And I don't think anything was ever said about it. Now, all these memories that you have of your childhood and all these experiences that you have from your young childhood, those didn't surface until, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but those seem to surface around in the 80s. Is that right?

No, no, these two surf, these two have always been with me. These two have always been with me. The ones that surfaced later, and I wrote a book about this called The Secret School, I'm very iffy about. I, you know, because memory, I've studied memory a lot. Right. And memory is a memory is not, it's not marble. It's not even plastic. Memory is a liquid. It's a liquid. And so if you've got something fixed in your memory, that's a special kind of memory.

Most memories are very malleable and very changeable. And, you know, witness testimony is not reliable testimony. It never has been. Right. And unfortunately still in our courts, we put people in jail all the time, all over the Western world. In fact, all over the world based on bad memories. And so I'm very wary of my memory and very careful. So I don't talk about, like in a situation like this, I don't talk about things that aren't direct, fixed memory.

I don't, like the other memories from childhood, you can read the secret school and decide for yourself whether or not you think they're true. I didn't read the secret school. Okay, well, the secret schools, it's about my childhood. So let me ask you, sorry to interrupt, but real quick. So was communion your very first book? About this, yes. About this stuff. And Communion is arguably like one of the most popular books on this topic.

Yeah, as far as I know, it is the most popular book. It is the most popular book on alien abductions and this phenomenon in modern history. Yeah, well, it initiated, if contact is real, the book initiated contact. I mean, because it woke millions of people up to that face with those big black eyes on the cover. Now, when you wrote about these creatures with the typical gray aliens with the big heads and the big black eyes, were you the first one to bring this into the public sphere? Were there already like films being made about this? Not to my knowledge.

I remember Betty and Barney Hill. Betty and Bernie Hill's descriptions weren't like mine, exactly. Were they prior to you, though? Yeah. Okay. I had seen, I think I'd seen an article in Look Magazine about Betty and Barney Hill years before. But my interest in this was zero. I had, by the time I was in high school, I had those funny memories, but they didn't, you know, they didn't really, they just hung there because they didn't have, they made no sense.

Right. And I didn't think about them. I had a, well, I had a period of time when I became very depressed in my early teens because I think now it was because I used to have a lot of contact with the visitors when I was a boy and they quit contacting me after I reached puberty. But here's the peculiar part of this. I was so depressed that my parents were afraid for my life, and they decided for me to see a psychiatrist. And there was a period of time when there was a lot of discussion about who should he see. I end up with an army general who has a security clearance and who is a big psychiatrist in the U.S. Army Army. Now, why would they choose that person?

And he says to me, Whitty, you can say anything you want to me. You can tell me anything. I didn't know what to think. Because I didn't have, by that time, I just had those two memories, but they weren't important and they weren't, they didn't feel like why I was feeling so sad.

Right. So is this around the time where you, they put you on in Randolph, Air Force Base or something like that? No, that happened earlier. Okay. Now, that's another case where I thought for a long time that maybe that never happened. Maybe it never happened. But here is what proceeded to occur a few years ago.

My closest friend in the world is very prominent in his field. He lives in Texas. I don't say his name because I don't, people would be very surprised. if the two of us were, know the two of us were such close friends, but we are, each of us is the closest friend the other has. And I was telling him about this in his wife, and I was saying, and we were talking about it, and I had talked about it, and I was saying, you know,

how I was talking about memory, actually, is how it came up and saying how dubious I was about memory. And he suddenly says to me, well, I remember that. What specifically was he talking about? Well, I'll tell you. He says, I said, you remember, he said, yes, I was recruited. I was in the living room when they came and recruited me, two Air Force officers. They recruited me, asked my parents if I could join this program for bright children, which was a special education program at Randolph. And I was amazed. And I said, and they didn't let you join. I said, no. He said, no. when they mentioned a Skinner box, my parents said they didn't want me involved because they didn't think that that was a good idea. And the idea as was, as it must have been told to my parents, I was not present when I was recruited. And therefore, I don't know what was said to them, that the child would be placed in this box that would use repetitive teaching for high-speed learning of advanced subjects.

That was probably what they were told, because that was what the other parents were told. And so this boy did not get into this program, but I did get into it. I got into it in July of 1952. I thought for a while it was earlier, but it was not earlier. It was July of 1952, and I'll tell you why I know that. It was extremely stressful. Okay, hold on a second. This reminds me of a surreal experience I have whenever I play Draft Kings pick six.

It's our favorite fantasy sports app. Draft Kings Picks Six is the newest way to compete against other non-invasive humans and win cash. Every time I think about aliens, I just have to bring myself back down to Earth and play some Draft Kings Pick Six. I've seen him do it. It's like a coping mechanism. I wonder if Whitley could use it. Why waste your time picking boring lottery numbers when you could double or even triple your money by betting on sports? Download the app and you can get NFL Plus premium. More on that later, but first, this awesome app. is easy. Pick a player and choose if they have more or less of a stat, like yards, touchdowns, catches, and more. This is the fun part. If you get your picks right, you'll win cash. It's peer

to peer against people, not robots or AI. So you got to be good with your choices. Prizes can be big. They can get real big, real fast, and with minimal entry fee. That's not a trick. It just means you understand the game and are awesome with your picks. Like Whitley, I think he could be really good at this. Download the new Draft King's Pick Six app now and you. use the code Danny Jones. That's code Danny Jones for new customers to play $5 and get $50 in pick six credits guaranteed, plus one month of NFL plus premium on us. This offer expires on September 19th, only on draft kings pick six. The crown is yours. Gambling problem, call 888-78-7777 or visit CPG.org in Connecticut. Must be 18 plus agent eligibility restrictions vary on jurisdiction. Pick six

not available everywhere, including New York and Ontario. Voidware prohibited. See terms at pick six.draftkings.com slash promos. One per new customer. Reward issued as $50 in non-withdrawable pick-six credits that expire in six months. NFL plus premium offer available only to new and former NFL plus subscribers. Additional NFL plus premium terms at NFL.com slash terms.

It's linked below. Now back to the show. I'm not 18 anymore. I'm working, raising two kids, and I have little free time. That's why I chose University of Phoenix. I take one class at a time and log in on my schedule. University of Phoenix built for real life. Get started at phoenix.edu.

I went on Thursdays and I was, I don't remember anything about it except being confined and there being a very loud noise involved. That's all I remember. I Confined Yeah I was like I guess I was in the Skinner box That's what they said The other

The parents of the other boy Skinner box Skinner BF Skinner was a Was a psychologist Who practiced in the 1950s Who came up with an

idea Of a high speed learning system Where the person was placed in this box And was fed repetitive learning as I understand it. Okay. But I don't remember any repetitive learning. I remember really loud noise.

Okay. And in any case, I was in the Skinner Box. I guess that being in the Skinner Box must have been very stressful because when I was going to school in that fall, I began to get all kinds of illnesses. I couldn't go to school for a few days without coming down with another cold. They took me to the doctor, and the doctor said he has no white blood cells. He's under tremendous stress of some kind.

And they took me out of that. And where did I end up being treated for this lack of an immune system? Was it Brooke General Hospital? It would, again, a military hospital. and they gave me shots of gamma globulin, and I remember very vividly because the needles were huge, and I was a little boy,

and these were doctors who were only used to dealing with adults, and one time, and maybe more than one, the needle went all the way through my arm, and gamma globulin went down my chest. So, and I was there for a few days, and very scared, because I was alone, and they didn't, they were, I was in isolation.

And, you know, there was a sheet over the doors, as I recall, and no one would come in. And when they did come in, they had masks on. And it was very scary. In fact, it scares me now, thinking back on it. Anyway, soon I was sent home and I was isolated. I couldn't go. I could get my food only in my bed. bedroom, and then during the day when my sister was gone, I could go downstairs and go in the

backyard and stay in the backyard. And so I was out of school from October through January, until January. Interestingly enough, when my mother died, I found one thing she had saved from all of my school years, which was my report card from that year with all of the nun's neat handwriting. Absent due to illness, absent due to illness for all of those months. And I showed it to my sister, and she said, how did you get this? My sister was 18 months older than me. She's deceased now.

And I said, well, it's in mother's box, her keepsakes. She said, she should never have kept this. And I said, well, I'm going to keep it. The next thing I knew it had disappeared. And my sister told me she didn't know where it was. She took it and hit it or threw it out for some reason. She did not want that known. That you miss school.

No, she didn't want the evidence. And I don't know whether she was programmed to do it or she knew more about it than I did or not. I don't know. Because maybe Mother had talked to her about it. I think Mother felt very guilty about it. That's why she would save that all those years. What do you think was going on? What do you think they were doing to kids like you at this military base that was this progressive learning that was stressing you out so much that it would kill your immune system?

I have theorized about it. I can't remember anything except the loud noise. This is my living memory. I even have started a novel about it called The Changeling, which I'm never going to finish because nobody will buy my fiction, only my nonfiction. I want to eat so. Anyway, maybe I will finish it and my kids can publish it after I die.

it'll tell the whole story, the novel, as fiction. But what I will say now is that I think they might have been trying to get me to leave my body to, or something like that. It was not... Some sort of like M.K. Ultra spin-off or something? It was right before M.K. Ultra started, and I think it had something to do with that sort of thing. And but what, I mean, that's just a wild guess, really. There could be any number of things they were trying to do. I mean, who knows?

God, I mean, one thing I do know, whatever they were trying to do, it was total BS. And it just hurt a little boy terribly. And they should pay me for that, but they never will. You know, the records, they're always looking for these records in this disclosure. and Congress is demanding that the records be brought forward. And then the DOD says, we don't have any records. And they're not lying because they've offloaded them to the defense industry. So they don't have to be.

FOIA doesn't matter. Right. The records aren't there. In any case, as Art Exen, General Exen, Arthur Exxon told me long ago, he was a close friend of my uncles. And they were both at right field, at the Air Materiel Command, when the debris and bodies were brought in. From Roswell? From Roswell.

Yeah, in July of 1947. So no one can tell me it didn't happen because it did. I didn't get lied to by my own family and a good friend like General Exxon, who was a very distinguished officer and also was commandant of Wright Pat for a long time. So what do you think that was at Roswell? What do you think crashed? I can tell you precisely what crashed. Why it crashed, I can't tell you.

It was a device containing three entities, which were part of the device, essentially. They were biological entities. And supposedly one of them was still alive when it was brought to write. But General Exent didn't say anything about that. The only thing, and he didn't tell me this directly, he told me, told him one of my relatives this, that he had held one in his arms, and it was like a big insect. That was his precise description. My uncle said that he had not, he didn't refer to the bodies.

He referred only to the debris and the, and the object, which he said was somewhat intact. and so they had from Roswell partially intact object and some debris and bodies. Three bodies. Three bodies. And Walter Hout, who was the press officer at the Army Air Base in Roswell, left an affidavit, which was published by his family after he died, describing all of this, the bodies and so forth in great detail. And he said to me, I went out to Roswell to talk to him. He said he wouldn't talk about the bodies.

I asked him, point blank, were there bodies? And he was simply silent. He wouldn't say yes. He wouldn't say no. Because he didn't like to lie. He was a very straight-up guy, straight-ahead guy, Walt was. And so he left this. This is as much as he could do.

And Colonel Jesse Marcel left a videotape with thanks to Stanton Friedman, where he describes in detail the debris that he found and brought in to his home in his station wagon with his little boy, who Dr. Marcel passed away just a couple of years ago who attested to this story also. Right.

So it happened. Have you ever heard Annie Jacobson's account of this crash? I don't think it's correct. Yes, I do know it very well. It seems really compelling. I know it's, I know a lot of, people aren't a fan of that theory. But it's interesting that she's the only one that talks about it and no one else seems to

appreciate it or take it seriously at all. You think it's, you think the guy who told her, essentially for people that are listening, there's a Annie Jacobson wrote in her book, Area 51, that there was an engineer of a private aerospace company or something like that who was working in Arizona or Nevada who told, told Annie under anonymity that the device that crashed in Roswell was a Wright brothers or something engineered craft, like some sort of human-made flying saucer with children that were surgically manipulated to look like aliens from the Nazi Mingel or Mingle. His name was. Yeah, I know the story. But go ahead and tell it because I just saw people who aren't familiar with it. Yeah. And essentially, Stalin sent the craft over here, remote controlled it over here, and crashed it with these children, these Russian children that were deformed by this Nazi, to sow chaos within the United States.

Okay, I can tell you a lot about that and where that comes from. And let me just finish the end of it. She asked this guy, Stephen, you can probably find his name. If you just Google Annie Jacobson, engineer Roswell. I find out who his name actually was. She actually talked about it on. on Lex's podcast, Lex Friedman podcast recently. And she asked him later, she goes, why wouldn't you make this public, why is this such a big secret?

Why are you waiting until you're essentially on your deathbed to tell me this? Why didn't you guys sit? Because if you guys would have let the public know when this happened, it would not hurt the image of America, it would hurt the image of Russia because it makes them look like, you know, sickos. It makes them look like sinister people.

The fact that they would do something like this. And his response to Annie was because we started doing the same thing as soon as we found what they did. As soon as we found out that they were altering children and doing this stuff in Roswell or in Russia, we started experimenting with the same thing. And we know that in the, I think it was the 70s and 80s, that there was projects going on on the east coast of the United States where they were injecting children with plutonium and all kinds of, you know, nuclear material to test on them. I think Bill Clinton shut it down in like the early 90s. I don't know anything about that and therefore I can't speak of it. But what I can speak of is

of is what I do know. I'll circle back for a moment to General Exen and my uncle. after I before I published communion I knew nothing about General Exxon and I knew nothing about my uncle's work in the Air Force nothing nobody in the family did I knew one thing about it one thing which was that he'd seen when this they they blew off a gigantic hydrogen bomb the Russians did in 1959 I think and I happened to be at staying at an aunt and uncle's house in Washington at the time with a friend and suddenly my uncle shows up. The aunt and uncle were on vacation in Spain and he told me, I asked him because I knew he was an intelligence officer. I just didn't know what he did. And I said, what do you think of this massive H-bomb that went off? They blew off in Russia.

He said, oh, I saw it. It's the size of a football field. And I thought he saw it. How did he see it? And I said, when did you see it? He just laughed and didn't say anything more. So he was in, you know, in other words, he was deep in this intel, in, in Air Force intelligence, apparently. Now, after Communion was published, he suddenly telephones me. He's now at this point he's in retirement at Retirement Village in Lackland, at Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio. He says, Woody, I want you to come down. I've got some things I would like to talk about that have to do with your book. And I thought, I hung up and I said to Ann, my wife, I said, Mickey's going to talk to me about my buck. Can you believe this?

And so I go down and he, in his wife, and me and Anne have a lunch. And he talks about the debris and the object, as he put it. he I I didn't ask him directly about bodies because it didn't occur to me at the time I was just I hadn't done much I hadn't been to Roswell yet for example right and uh or no I had been to Roswell but uh I had in any case it didn't the bodies didn't come up he I he he may have alluded to him I've never been sure I'm trying to to remember if I I, you know, I always say that I, he didn't say anything about the bodies and I don't think, I don't think I asked him anything about them directly. I did ask General Exxon

about them and he said that he and General Exxon had worked on this project at right, at right Pat, at right field at the time and air material under General Twining and who was the head of air material at the time.

time. And he told me about the debris. And as I say, I think he alluded to the bodies, may not have. And he introduced me to General Exxon, who I talked to on the phone a number of times, who told me a great deal about the whole thing. He knew more than much more than Mickey did because he'd been a higher level officer at the time. I think Mickey was a major and he was a colonel at the time. And General Exxon said, and I'm quoting him, and he's been quoted in, in an unfortunate interview, public interview, that's in a book by Don Schmidt and Randles and Schmidt, this that everyone from Truman on down, as he put it, knew that what we had found was not of this world within 24 hours of our finding it. Now, let's go back to the story of the altar children. Yes. And by the way, just a quick aside, the guy's name is Alfred O'Donnell. That's the E, and he was an EG and G&G engineer. Okay.

This is the guy who told him. EG and G&G Rhotron. So can you copy and paste his name into a new tab so we can get some more background on that guy? Sorry, go ahead. Okay. So this is where that, I think, that story comes from. Immediately, here is the situation, the world situation, as it stood at that time. Stalin has four and a half million soldiers fully equipped largely with top-notch American equipment on what is now being called, beginning to be called, the Iron Curtain line.

NATO or rather the allies are telling Churchill and, I guess, DeGall and Truman, that. This army can move across Western Europe in six weeks, and in all probability we'll be able to successfully invade England because the West has demobilized and they have not. So what is preventing them? Why don't they do it? There's one thing on the planet that's preventing them. It is the 509th bomb wing at Roswell, which is believed to be equipped with nuclear, weapons and can deliver them to Russia. And Stalin knows that his radars and his anti-aircraft systems are not sufficiently robust to guarantee that all of the planes will be destroyed. So the biggest secret on the planet upon which the hinge of door of history is hinged is that bomb wing right there at Roswell. Right.

do they really have the bombs or not? Is it, what is the situation? Now, I was told by somebody who was, who's, it was at the base and he was, he was an older man and I, I don't remember his name. I'm not in the business of not saying names, by the way. I try to say all the names I can remember.

But this is a guy who, he told me that they did not have all of the planes, only a couple of the planes had, were actually operational at that time. And the result of this was the immediate thought, when they found debris and wreckage 30 miles north of Roswell, an apparent balloon, the fear was that he had sensitive equipment on there

that could have detected the level of radiation coming from the base if he'd gotten near enough and determined from that whether or not there were really bombs on the base. And this caused a tremendous upset. That's why when the disc story was being disseminated by Walter Hout, it was suddenly killed.

by the Pentagon, because they weren't afraid of aliens. They'd never even heard. Understand, in those days, that idea was not something people thought about. People from another planet, we'd hardly even, I mean, maybe they'd think we were from Mars or something. I mean, they had no information, nothing like what we have now about outer space. So their immediate thought was these were people, these were Russians. And because they were small, the assumption was they were children. And then the cover story was the story that they were altered children.

Yeah, but that was never, the story about them being altered children was never released into the public officially. No, no, but it went all over the Air Force. It went all over the Air Force because my uncle mentioned it. He said that that was the story that was told in the Air Force, that that was what. what was told. Okay. And because he was definite, no, art was definite about the bodies. He said they were not human at all. And in fact, well, I know they weren't human. I'm quite certain of it. And you know for a fact. Pretty much. Okay. Well, you know, it'll all come out. It's not going to be. I know So. How do you know?

This has to do with time, and it is like an onion being peeled. You know, you peel one layer and another layer and another layer, and the deeper you get, the closer you get to the heart of the matter and the worse, it smells. So that's where we are. Do you think that the government has played out some sort of simulated, like war games, but for society on what happens if this sort of? sort of stuff comes out and what happens to? I don't think the government has much to do with the decision-making process here. I think the decision-making process is elsewhere, and it's with these non-human presences and not directly with us. I'm pretty sure that's the case, and I think they probably manipulate the defense departments quite extensively in order to be sure that exactly what they want done is done at the right time.

Who manipulates the Defense Department? These creatures? The off-world beings. The visitors? Yeah, the visitors, yeah. And as to how they do it, there could be direct interface very easily. If it's not direct interface, then I have experienced fluent telepathy with them and with human beings who look human but also have these abilities.

And therefore, I think that that could be used to affect the minds of people. And especially people who are not familiar with that and do not have any experience of it, they may be easily diluted into thinking that it's their own thoughts. Now, another thing, though, that has happened is that it's regarding the secrecy and the reason that the defense industry is so determined to, excuse me, another thing that's happened and the reason the defense industry is so determined to keep this under wraps is the following. And Hal Poodoff has now talked about this publicly at the Soul Foundation conference. And it was that in October of the last year of W's presidency, a committee, a group of committees actually were convened by the White House in Washington and told everyone who was involved were people who had worked on this extensively. and their companies, representatives of their companies, go out and consult with each other in groups, in separate groups,

and provide us with a report as to whether or not you think we should make this public. And everyone went into the thing thinking, wonderful. We're going to do this right now and maybe wind up back the presidency in November. But they all came back with the same. recommendation do not release this and the reason is this you have to understand how patents work you can't find something in the ground like a stone or a mineral that's an unknown mineral and patent it you have to create a process a process that is patentable a natural object is not patentable.

So all of this debris, all of these objects that are in a gray area, and what's the most complex part of it is, not all companies that have an interest in the development of processes and other materials based on what's been found have had access to it. because the access was given to the companies that already had the correct track in terms of security clearances into the company because they didn't, the defense department made a decision a long time ago, I think, that they would not be giving, they would not be going to a company and saying, you need to get this and this and this type of classification or security clearance in order for us to do this. because they were afraid that that would open the door, would leak. And the result is some companies have profited immensely from these processes and have patented things that are not actually patentable. The found material specifically is not patentable. Okay.

Not legally patentable. Not legally patentable. And they know this, and they also know that there, There would be a, not only is there possible criminal activity involved, but all of the companies that have been left out of the picture have a massive grievance and to sue the other companies. And this is why these committees recommended that this not be disclosed and why also when the Schumer Amendment was given. gutted by the house that was led by congressmen who... Ohio. Yeah, who are dependent on the defense industry for contributions.

What were the specific companies that were basically lobbying or funding those guys? Well, I wasn't told directly, but I can certainly guess that Boeing and Lockheed Martin and a few others would be highly concerned. concerned about this. Right. And it's also convenient that these companies would have all this information because they can't be foiled.

Right? Private companies can't be foiled. Exactly. And that's why the information was, in my opinion, a lot of the paperwork was taken to Woodstock, New York,

and placed in the Iron Mountain facility in spaces that are owned by EG&G Roktron. Do you think people in the Pentagon? or deep in the government somewhere have simulated what would happen if this stuff did get out to the public? I would assume so.

What do you think their conclusion would be if that happened? Well, their conclusion. Or what do you think their plan would be? I think that, I think that, I think the, that's a really complex question. And on one level, their conclusion would be, we've got to protect our industry and therefore we can't allow this to get out. because it's going to cause economic turmoil for all of our suppliers. That would be one level of it. Another level of it, and this gets to whether or not there is an interface of some kind with these entities.

And that is cultural colonization. When the Europeans moved out into the Americas and the Far East, they did so with superior. technology, and this is a terribly critical point, so I'm going to hit it hard, moved out with superior technologies and devastated these other cultures because the other cultures saw the ships, the cannons, the guns, the armor, the wonderful knives and metal pots and things, and they wanted that too, and their own cultural significance greatly diminished. And you've If you go to India, you see that kind of culture shock is still there everywhere. It's still part of Indian, the Indian soul.

It was a real bruising they took by cultural colonization. And caught an even worse bruising in the Americas where 90% of the people in Mexico were dead within 10 years of the arrival of the Spaniards. I mean, that's cultural colonization out of the wazoo. Right. Now, someone who is aware of that and wishes to leave the society intact would be very careful about exposing the society to what would in fact be, I'm sure, an extraordinarily dramatic amount of new processes and capabilities and materials. that would seem to us almost to be magic. Yeah, it would almost kick the legs out from under society. Right.

And there's possibly another reason, and it's very interesting. In April of 1977, D.B.H. Kuiper and Mark Morris, two astrophysicists, one of them was an astronomer, the other an astrophysicist. the astronomer, Kuiper, discovered the Kuiper belt. There were very prestigious guys. Published an article in the magazine Science, which was about what if aliens came here,

why would they, why they would remain hidden? And you understand, these are guys who might have known they were here. They could easily have known that. And their conclusion was that the only thing they would be interested in here, here would be what we had and had discovered that they had not, what was new to them.

And as soon as they revealed themselves, the whole culture would reform itself and refocus itself toward them. And all of that potential innovation that they might be looking for would be disappeared. It would poison the well of humanity. Poison the well. And I think that is a major issue with the visitors. It seems, I mean, yeah, no, that makes perfect sense. Well, it gets darker, though.

This is the good part. There's all kinds of stuff as well as this. There are all kinds of other reasons for the secrecy. But I think the secrecy, and I think it's important to always understand this. When we are going after the Defense Department, it's the little dog biting the boot that's kicking it. It ain't the man in the, the dog never sees the man. And he's only worried about the boot. You got to look up and there you see who's really behind it.

And that's not us. That's them. So you think somehow this advanced species or whatever you want to call it is controlling and manipulating our society in a way that benefits us to? I would assume so. I would assume that it must be or things would not be like they are. Well, look at the Roswell incident. What's going on here has two sides to it. One is controlling and manipulating the society and its governments in such a way that they will not reveal to the public the bits and pieces that fall into their hands.

And two, making sure that enough falls into their hands and into the public's hands. that we're all getting used to this and that we are building toward something closer to parity. That we were nowhere near parity in 1947, but we're much closer now. And as we become more sophisticated... When you say parity, what do you mean specifically?

I mean technological parity. With them. With them. Because remember, I said a few minutes ago that this is terribly important, and I brought up the story of the European especially the Spaniards. The fact that they're technologically more proficient than we are

does not mean that they're ethically and morally more proficient than we are. Right, exactly. That's really important to remember because, remember, I know these people well, a lot of them quite well, not on a sit down across the table. Well, what do you mean people? The visitors. I've had a lot.

They're in my life, and I communicate with them a lot. And they are not... Can you do this whenever you want? No, they do it. It's when they want. I usually, it happens between three and four in the morning, and it involves working on my books. The best, the most extensive communication, more direct communication I've had with them in recent years, was when I was writing a book called A New World.

And I wrote it at the country house, which was now then... owned by my aunt who was recently deceased and whom I loved dearly she was she was really a wonderful woman and she also the other was the other member of the family who had had a close encounter when she didn't talk oh really oh yeah she didn't talk about it much but we discussed it pretty extensively of course and I don't I have to find out from her daughters whether or not what she mentioned to them because I would like to tell them what she told me if they don't know. And we never have talked about it. That's down the road in my life.

In any case, we're at the country house. I'm downstairs and I've been going, she's just come up. I've been going there for about four days and I've been sitting in the living room with all the lights out. And the visitors, presumably the little gray people, have been coming on to the porch. right beside me, just a couple feet away. And so very close like that, the telepathic communication is very clear. And we are working, literally working together on the book directly. Now, what happens, my aunt comes, and she is upstairs in the bedroom,

and there's another porch, the sleeping porch, outside her room. And this is all floor-to-ceiling windows. It's an old house. And suddenly I hear her say, witty, is that you? And I say, what do you mean? She says, well, someone just talked to me on the porch. And I said, no, I'm down here. And she said, well, someone, and I went upstairs and said, what's going on?

And she said, well, I think it's your friends because they had that shuffling walk, this sort of scraping along walk on the, she could hear that on the porch. and it said to me, why aren't you asleep? And I thought to myself, this is not good because people are, they will say, I say, how do you feel? You're all right? I said, sure, I'm all right.

But I guess they're here. I said, yes, I guess they are. And it was interesting, she wanted to see them. She would go up to the house with me, just the two of us alone, in hopes of seeing them, even though her relationship with them was very hard. She'd had some hard things happened to her. And so I said, well, I guess they are here.

I mean, I knew they were there because I'd been with them and they were downstairs at that moment. But they had apparently, I was going to go up to my room, which is the far room in the back, the farthest away, darkest room in the house. And they were going to probably come up to that area. and when they realized she was awake, they thought they couldn't come up. They're very shy, and I have a number of theories about that, but I don't really know why.

In any case, I thought to myself, I had better be careful here because I think this is extremely stressful for my aunt. The next afternoon, she became ill, and I, she said I feel very, nauseous and lightheaded. And I put my fingers on her wrist and her heart was not beating correctly.

And I thought to myself, it's stress and she's having a heart attack. And so I called our, a lifelong friend who is also a doctor, not the one I talked about earlier, who happens to have this country house is half, 10 minutes away by car. And I said to him, you need to get over here. I think she's having a heart attack. And he came rushing over, diagnosed her. He's a cardiologist. Diagnosed her.

I got an ambulance to take her into town. Got a pacemaker into her and saved her life. Because I knew she would get stressed. And she always disagreed that the stress was because of what happened the night before. But I'm sorry, that is not the case. It's tremendously stressful. and I can tell you precisely why and also a reason for the secrecy. And this gets back to my mention of time a little while ago.

They haven't got the same relationship to time as we do. If you can visualize it, we are inside the stream of time, and the stream of time is always coming toward us. Everything in your life and my life is always new. We never experience time. any other way. Now, time is not, and I hear people all the time, even physicists, talking about time as if it was a sort of force or presence like gravity, it's not. Time isn't, it's a side effect of quantum entanglement. And there's just one paper I know of that's, I think, being prepared now

that discusses this. But it is the case. In any case, that's almost neither here nor there with what I'm about to say. What I want to say here is visualize them as like fishermen on the shores of the river of time and us as trout swimming in the river and all experiences coming in and we're devouring the little bits of experience that we get and they're making us stronger. If you take us out of the stream of time, it's devastating for two reasons. One is we can't function outside. of the stream of time. And the second and most important one is we see the stream of time from the outside. And if you do this, believe me, it's horribly hard because for a while after that,

your life is all known to you and you are like running on rails. It's like automatic. It's horrible. and you can't get the energy of the experience that you have paid dearly to get by being locked up in a physical body. They are not locked in their bodies. They can come and go and leave and enter their bodies. That's why they have left bodies here in the first place because they can leave the bodies behind. When they left that craft at Braswell with bodies in it, they weren't in the bodies.

They'd left except for one that remained apparently. I say apparently I've never had any direct proof of this, but that's what General Exxon implied that. And General Twining's son said that General Twining had spoken to this individual, who had told the first lie of many when he said they asked, General Exxon asked if they were, I mean, General Twining got an answer to a question. and the answer was we're not interested in human beings. Of course, that's absolutely false. So almost the first thing they was ever said to anybody was a lie. And that shouldn't surprise us because they're going to be a lot more of those. Can you expand a little bit more on what you mean about looking at time from the outside, being outside the time stream?

Yes, I can. Let me give you an example of how that experience works for. for somebody. Jeff Krepple, who is my dear friend and my co-author of Supernatural, has been on your show and so forth, had an experience with me at the Esselin Institute. When I'm up there, there's a house called the Murphy House where there's a certain room that looks right out over the Pacific, and it's an ideal room. It makes it very easy for them to come in. And when they're active in my life, in the physical life and coming, if I go and stay in that room, they will often show up there. And so Jeff wanted to stay in the room when that, that would, hopes that that

would happen to him. And it did. Oh, yes. And after reading your book, I don't know who in the right mind would want to have that experience. I was terrified reading your book. I was literally petrified in my bed at night when I was reading your book. Like, I'm shaking. Yeah, I notice your hand shaking now. It's not an experience I would, upon my worst enemy. Well, let's put it this way. Human beings are here because we are more curious than afraid. And I am in that boat. Ultimately, after the experience, I became more curious. And I started going out in the woods in the middle of the night to indicate to the visitors that I was ready for more in spite of the fact that this was clearly an insane act. But going over the next hill,

which is how we conquered that we came to the whole planet was always an act like that. We've been doing that. That's how we have grown and lived. And fooling around with the atom, of course we did it. And now we can completely destroy ourselves at a moment's notice. Curiosity is the primary driving force. It's more powerful than fear. And I can assure you, if you've found the chance to have a face-to-face

with the visitors. You would say yes, Danny? No, I wouldn't. Yeah, you would. Nope, I would not. In the moment, you would say yes. No. Okay.

If they're listening right now, the answer is no. I would not, I promise you. Well, you've got to watch out because sometimes they are listening. You're not, wouldn't be the only podcaster who's ever had an experience with them after having a conversation like this. Has it ever happened where people that you're around end up having similar experiences when they're doing? Oh, God, yes, all the time. Absolutely. Don't tell me that.

Yeah. Absolutely. Anyway, let's go back to Jeff because it's a wonderful story. And he's told it publicly. It's not a secret. Okay. I try and never, if I can't remember a name, that's one thing. But I try never to come in a podcast like this and say, well, I had on the authority of or with, you know, I can't say his name.

I don't like that. No, I don't either. I'm not a family. I'm in the business of telling a story. I'm a storyteller. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. So, anyway, Jeff stays in the room.

night and one of the visitors does show up and very clever hits me I'm here's the situation the room is the end of the room is here there's a little porch that you can step off and walk down to a cliff and the Pacific is roaring away on that cliff right there okay 70-foot drop and the the I'm in the bed right beside that window. Jeff is across the room in a bed across the room. Okay, you guys in the same room together? In the same, okay.

Yeah. So they show up. One of them shows up, and it's not a gray. It's one of these dark blue figures that actually I have more contact with physically than the grays. So the shorter, beefier ones? Yeah, yeah. And he wakes me up by tapping me on this shoulder, causing me to look, look, look this way, and then I look back and I see him, and then he disappears.

And it's an indication, in my mind, that I'm supposed to get up and do the meditation I do with them at 3 o'clock every morning, or approximately 3. Every morning. Every morning. It's supposed to be an hour and a half before dawn, so it varies a lot. And you can't use like an alarm system because that alarm clock. Because they basically will wake me up at the right moment. It's a time called in certain yoga practices, Brahmaertha time.

It is an hour and 30 minutes before dawn, hour and 39 minutes before dawn. And it is the time when the mind is most open. And that's when I work with them on my books. Interesting. So it's also the time when you're having, you're in REM sleep. You would be, but if you're sitting there. in a room doing a meditation to open your mind to this outer, this material coming from the outside, you're not in REM sleep.

But if you were sleeping typically, that would be the part of the night and your brain is the most active. And they say that REM sleep, I don't know if they've proven it, but it is connected to the pineal gland. Well, you have to have some control over the functioning of the pineal gland in order to do this and remain sane and healthy. In any case, getting back to Jeff, the... the visitor disappears. Short time after that, Jeff is awakened.

And his description of how it felt is what I was getting at. He said, it felt like I heard glass crashing down, breaking all around me. That was his worldview. It was his worldview. whole vision of reality was collapsing. And it was like glass. To him, his mind interpreted it like glass breaking. And then he heard a voice from inside himself as he was drawn to the edge of the time stream, cry out his own voice, but from deep inside his body, oh my God. And if you're taken out of the time stream, your reason for living,

is over and you have to get used to that possibility and you have to get used to the idea that if you're taken out of the time stream it'll only be for a while and your your relationship to time will return and but until you do you're going to be scared to death and it's a natural fear it's it's the fear of a fish being pulled out of the water is it like dying would you compare it to dying. It's worse than death. Worse than death. Oh, it's worse than death. Because death, death is when you leave, you were locked into

these bodies. This episode is brought to you by Ultima Replenisher. Health is all about balance, like a salad, with fries. So why not have balance in your hydration? With six essential electrolytes and no junk, Ultima provides balanced hydration you can enjoy

every day. That means no sugar, calories, or carbs. And it's not loaded with sodium. Just delicious plant-based flavors you'll actually look forward to drinking. Shop ultima on Amazon or in-store at Target and Whole Foods Market. If you love diving into culture and comedy, like on Danny Jones podcast, playoff hockey is right up your alley. NHL on T&T has the best coverage, making every game feel intense and unpredictable.

Playoff hockey is a different level, overtime, big hits, and no-one coast. The studio crew, with Paul Bissonette cracking jokes and Wayne Gretzky breaking things down, makes it even more fun to watch. Every shift matters, and the personalities keep things lively. Watch the Stanley Cup playoffs on TNT, TBS, True TV, and HBO Max. There's a place just above the C1 vertebra, which we can't unlock, but they can. The grays can because they haven't a way of doing it. Okay.

And when they do that, you feel, you literally feel, like, like something, things opening all down your spine. Your spine is opening and you can roll right out of your body. Now, in my case, I would love to be left on my own when I do that, but they always have a job for me, a specific thing. And I don't think that they would care for me to be allowed out on my own to cut up in that state, as I might do because I've learned to do things I can make myself visible in that state, which I have done a couple times because there's a movement when you're in that state,

you still have what feels like a nervous system and you can address your attention to it in a certain way that can make you visible. And I don't think they trust me enough to let me fool around with that. And I would have a lot of fun with it. It's quite true. So how is it worse than you? death. Because the soul is here gathering the energy of life. And this is like being in the stream of, once you're out of the stream and you see the next four days say, for those four days, your soul

can't gather any energy because it already knows what's going to happen. It is the energy of the new that we are here to receive to get. That's why we're in these bodies. That's the fundamental reason we're in these bodies. Dying is a natural part of this. It comes to an end at a certain point. Right. And that's what makes us tick. A lot of people believe.

Right. And we are here to be born to live and to die. Right. This is not dying. This is being in a living, breathing body with no reason to be in it. And it's horrible. The first time it happened to me, I just was almost, mad because I was I didn't know that it would end it's almost like the death of the soul it's it not

not the death of the soul the soul becomes a it's like being trapped it's claustrophobic as hell it's really claustrophobic because you're suddenly very aware of the fact that you are in this body and you can't get out it's like being locked in a closet it believe me it's hard hard and And Jeff wasn't prepared and people aren't prepared. And that's why they don't want that every instinct in us says, we must not do this. We must not get out of the time stream. This is why we're here. We paid for this in some way.

We're here. This is our precious treasure is being in this time stream. And being pulled out of it? No. No, that's not supposed to happen. They are outside of it looking in. Why are they like that? This is a great question because I am quite sure from my own experience, this is experiential.

It is not observational, though. And there's a difference in the quality of something like that because I'm saying what I believe to be true, not what I have seen. Okay. What I believe to be true is that they believe to be true. is that they can enter us and when they're in us they can share this constant, unending sense of the new that they don't have anymore.

They lost it or gave it up or it was taken from them. My wife, Anne, who knew... She was a little gal from Ann Arbor, Michigan who grew up in a difficult situation And there was just nothing mysterious about her. There was nothing mysterious in our life together until, well, once we met, things got weird. But we didn't know why.

And, you know, we were a couple of kids basically interested in bed, not in weird stuff. I mean, we didn't care about that. We were interested in each other. Right. So she knew, once she knew, you know, when I went through a period, after I published Communion of thinking I was going crazy and trying to drive her out of my life because I thought I'm psychotic

and anything can happen. If she ends up, I end up in this state that I was in that night and can't get out of it, I'm going to be in a mental institution maybe for the rest of my life and she's going to be saddled with me because she's not being able to divorce me.

And so I was trying to get her to divorce me. until finally consciously or unconscious? Oh consciously, very consciously. And so we were fighting a lot and I kept telling her why don't you just leave? Why don't you leave?

Why don't you get a divorce? And it was killing me inside because I love her so dearly and deeply. But I just thought it was, you know, she had to have a life and she wouldn't have a life with me very much longer. I was afraid of that.

When I finally realized that it had happened, physically happened, when the doctor said to me you've been raped or he didn't say that he said you have a lesion in your rectum because i had been entered in rectally and by a machine that caused an erection and an expulsion of seaman this is the 1986 july or december december of 1985 December 26 1985 right yeah yeah yeah i want you to also keep a pin there because i want you to tell that story okay i surely surely i will So, but she once, you know, I finally, I talked to my friend Timothy Greenfield-Sonders, a photographer in New York, who we've been, we're dear friends.

I have, I love friends, and I love to have friends in my life. So I keep my friends as long as I can, and Timothy and I have been friends, and she and our families have been friends for a long time. So we were, I told Timothy before I told Ann. And the reason is that members of his wife's family had seen the visitors. They lived just 10 minutes from our house and our cabin in upstate New York. And they'd seen the visitors in their back garden one morning while they were having breakfast. And so, you know, that was. A morning outside.

That's so bizarre. Oh, listen. It was because of me. They were shown that because of me, I'm sure. It might have been about a year before in any case, but the visitors, because they're outside of the stream of time, they can stitch things together differently than we can. And so I told him the story.

And I said, he said, well, I said, I don't know how to tell Anne. And he says, just tell her. She'll roll with it. and and I thought, well, I don't have any choice because I've got to tell her something and explain myself because I've been really bad to her. And so I told her and she looks at me and I look back at her and I was afraid she would say, well, now maybe we should get a divorce. But instead she says, oh, thank God, now I don't have to get a divorce. Wow. That's ride or die.

She was rolling with it immediately, and she took it over. She took over everything. Anne was the one who said, you should write a book about it. She was the one who gave the book the title. I was going to call it body terror because it was so physically terrifying. And she said, no, Whittley. One night when she was half asleep, she suddenly says, Whittley, call the book commute.

because that's what it's about. And that is the defining reality here. Can we do it? And another part of that reality comes from Colonel Philip Corso, Phil Corso, who had an encounter in New Mexico where he was asked by the visitors to turn off some radars so they could safely leave a cave that they were in. and to turn them off for 10 minutes. And he said, well, in my profession, 10 minutes can be a long time, which is quite an understatement. And what's in it for us?

And the answer is the defining reality of this, along with the word communion. The answer was, a new world if you can take it. Oh, yes. That means if you can rest it out of our hands, if you can bear it. it. If you can stand it, if you can understand it, if you can steal it, beg for it, buy it, borrow it. However, there's a new world waiting for us. And that world, that circles back to communion because it is in that level of relationship that this new world is going to come, because what will happen to us is that all kinds of abilities that we see the visitors in possession of, that

look like magic to us will become part of us as well. I'm writing a book about this right now, and it's going to be out hopefully by December, and it's going to lay it all out. It's called the fourth mind of exactly what we need to do and where we are with this, because it's time, and it gets back to the original statement here that this is about time. And it is about time, too. Okay, going back to when this December 26th of 1985 Yeah.

Experience. This was the first experience I believe that you talk about in communion. Yes. Right. Yeah. Sort of the first. So is this experience what sort of kicked off your inspiration to come up with this book? Or was, did you decide to write about the book?

Like how many years after that? experience did you decide to write the book? Oh, Anne brought it up the night I told her the story. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. She was ready right then. It was time. Okay. So first of all, before we go into that story, why do you think they chose you? I think I've probably been in this all my life. I am a good writer. I can tell a good story. I am a, um, willing to do it. My curiosity is stronger than my fear. And there's another thing that's very important.

They obviously they could have chosen, excuse me, they could have chosen someone like a prominent scientist who would, they could find one who would do it, I'm sure. Smart people. Smart people. I'm smart enough to do it. I mean, obviously, I couldn't do it. But they chose a horror novelist.

And the reason is this. It gets back to cultural colonization. You don't have to believe me. You can say, no, he's making it up. It's another horror novel. He's just doing it for the cash. That you can defend yourself. If you feel uncomfortable with this and don't want to go down this road,

you can turn away from it with no questions asked and nothing lost. And that's why they chose someone whose situation would be so ambiguous as mine. I write horror novels and then I come out with this bizarre and terrifying story and say, no, no, this isn't a horror novel. This really happened to me. And so that level of ambiguity remains intact to the story. stay and I would never disturb it. Do you think it had anything to do with the stuff that you recollected when you were a child

being on the Air Force Base? You know, I think, interestingly enough, yes, and I'll tell you why. There was a book written by Ken Ring called The Omega Project, and Anne and I financed this project. And what it was is he went to a numerous, a group of about 100, I think, close encounter witnesses or maybe less. It was a small study and gave them each a list of questions. And this has been repeated on a larger scale in the close encounter community subsequently of their, asking them about their childhood. And most all of them remembered something traumatic in their childhood, something that cracked the cosmic egg. their expectations were destroyed.

And when I was at Randolph, my expectations of life and of what it was and of what I could expect from it were shattered completely, so much so that I still have complete amnesia about it almost. That's why I always say I can only remember this loud noise. And because, you know, at this point, I was hypnotized twice in my life, three times in my life by Donald Klein. Only three times. Third time did not work. But Hopkins tried to hypnotize me. But, Hopkins. He wrote a book called Intruders.

He was an artist who was very interested in close encounters and abductions because he'd had one, a close encounter anyway himself. Excuse me. Anyway, it did not work because I did not, I did not want to be hypnotized by an artist. I'm lame it Dr. Klein was the head and to Bud's credit he found Dr. Klein for me.

Okay. He was the head of the New York State Department of Psychiatry and one of the world's leading forensic hypnotists and never let it be said that, you know,

there's a lot of the IC puts out a lot of balloony about lie detectors not working and hypnosis not working but it does both of these things do work in the hands

of experts. Okay. Not in the hands of someone who already believes everything, already has a belief system about UFOs and is going to transfer that belief system to the person being hypnotized. Right. But a doctor like that, at that level, no idea of any of this and purposely didn't get into it before hypnotizing me, he had at that point solved 72 kids. cases of hit and runs and other crimes using evidence gathered by helping people to remember

things like license plate numbers. So it's real and tangible evidence. Right. I mean, it wasn't used as evidence in court, but they would go out and find the car and find the evidence on the car, that kind of thing. Okay. So could you use it as evidence at court? Oh, no. No. No, absolutely not. You can't use light detection as evidence in court either, although I have to say that what I've learned about memory suggests to me they might actually be more accurate than witnesses. In any case, that's the way we have it now. So Dr. Klein, I understand I had no idea, Bud, I had read a book that my brother sent me called Science and the UFOs by Jenny Randalls. He sent it to me for Christmas, that Christmas. And I looked at it and, you know, stupid, why would he send me this?

We send each other joke presents a lot. Christmas and birthdays, he once tried to give me a tarantula, but my wife wouldn't let me take it. They make nice pets, but Anne did not think so. In any case, so I figured it was a joke present and forgot about it. But then after this happened, and I began realizing that I had in fact been and this needlemark, it went in my head, had gone in my head. And the needlemark was there. The doctor saw it, Ann saw it. It was no question about it.

And the damage to my rectum actually took more than 20 years to heal. It was significant. Wow. So now, but there's a gap here between those crimes. and the removal of seeing my own life from my body. Those are crimes. Those are big time crimes. But was what did it, these little funny-looking creatures,

or was it someone who did something to my head? When you were a kid? No, I'm talking about the community experience. Something to my head. but that maybe went all the way back to 1952. In other words, maybe I was prepped to believe this. You see what I mean? Right.

From the beginning. Right. Well, you made it clear that there was a significant amount of trauma you went through when you were a kid. Well, that's what I was. I'm sorry, I sort of went off the subject. And let me go back to that. That was very traumatic when I was a child. Very traumatic.

And Ken Ring, I sort of lost, I got. lost in the community experience, excuse me. Ken Ring, study showed that this was not unusual, that people who had the close-enounter experience had had shattering experiences in their childhoods. The cosmic egg had been cracked. Their set of assumptions about what was real was shattered, and therefore they were open to this experience, open to remembering it. And there are a whole lot of reasons why it might happen to people.

and I never remember it. Yeah, when I asked Jeff Kripple about like consistencies between people who had these experiences, he's had the number one consistency. He believes is trauma. Yeah, I think that's correct. It's trauma. And also, when you were a child,

how did you end up in Monterey, Mexico? I don't know. We were taken there by plane. You were taken there by plane? Mm-mm. By my father. By your father? Yeah.

And was this after what happened? at the Air Force Base? It was during the same period. Probably in August of 1952 would be my guess, because we would have been in school in September. Okay. And what was happening in Monterey, Mexico? I don't want to talk about it.

You don't want to talk about it? Okay. I don't want to talk about it. It was awful. It was awful. I have, here's the reason I don't want to talk about it. A, what I recall is awful, and B, I'm not absolutely sure

I'm recalling something that really happened. I know the trip happened for sure because I remember being in the plane. I remember being in the Grand Ancero Hotel in Mexico City, in a Monterey. I remember going up into the hills to a house that was owned by a man who was at the, somehow connected with a company, an American company that operated mines in Mexico. Operated mines. Yeah. and that there were a lot of other children there, and it was not a good situation.

But here's the problem. So you know for a fact you were in Monterey at this house in a specific location doing something? I looked and looked for that house, and I've never been able to find it. I remember what it looked like in the front, but when you go up to the hills above Monterey where those nice houses are,

they all look like that. You know, you just can't pick one out. I drove all in there with Anne and my son one year, or I think with Anne, and I couldn't find it. So it was a little frustrating, but I also remember the name of the man who was supposedly doing this. His name was Antonio Krauss, K-A-R-U-S-E, but I've never been able to find anything definite about him. Peter LeVenda did some research for me to try to find this guy and found that there was a man named that who was at a

had a school for German children in Colombia, and Antonio Krauss, I remember, spoke very strange accent. It was a mixture of a Spanish accent and a German accent. So, you know, that's all very fragmentary, but I think those are probably true memories. You don't want to talk about... Yeah, because I don't want to talk about it because it's very incendiary, and I'm not sure it's real.

That's the problem. If it was real, what would the point of it be? The point of it would have been to, I think, to traumatize children in such a way that it literally cracked the cosmic egg. I think that's what it was all about. And whatever was being done to me at that Air Force Base, if that is also true, and I think it is, was an attempt to engage with whatever I would call up. once I no longer, once my worldview had been shattered. Do you think it had anything to do with these visitors? Yes, it did.

It did have something to do the visitors. It certainly did, yes. So whoever was involved in this, trying to make, making you a part of some program, they had the visitors in mind. They were trying to summon these visitors. And look at it this way. Here's a man, German-American, a German-Spanish,

teaching German children in Colombia. at a time when a lot of former Nazis had moved to... This Operation Paperclip? Well, he could have been on Operation Paperclip. Sure. That may be why he was... Listen, a lot of the Operation Paperclip people lived on a street right next to ours. And in those, we were on Elizabeth Road in San Antonio,

and a number of them were on Tuttle Road as... Oh, in Texas. In Texas. Yeah. And my father used to walk over there in those... days in the evenings. And I don't know if that's correct. It could have been they were other, there were not paperclip scientists, but I do know that they were something to do with the government and the military. And they were kind of hush, hush, some of them. Other people were just normal

people on that street. But that was all happening there. And that was, I, you know, I can't, I wish I could be more clear about it, but it's not clear because you're talking to, and I was a seven-year-old boy and you know i'm not was not prepared to have memories real true memories formed out of experiences that were so far beyond my expectations and understanding just

just anyone who says that they remember things like that clearly is cannot be telling the truth right so these memories i'm doing them my best did these memories stick with you or were these memories brought back with uh with hypnosis uh No, the only things that stuck with me were the memory of growing to the country and the memory of the time they went to the country and left me behind. Now, when I was with Dr. Klein, the second time, the first time I was just screaming, on unknown country on my website, you can actually find these tapes. They're all there. And the first tape is just sounds of me screaming away. And I think the Travel Channel did a show that has the tapes as well.

Is that painful for you to listen to? Oh, yes. The screaming one is agonizing. I can hardly listen. I've listened to it a couple times since it happened. And it's hard. It's very hard to listen to. And then the travel channel show starts out with the screaming.

Boy, that was hard to keep the audience hooked, right? Well, yeah, I guess it hooked the audience, but it's certainly unhooked me. in any case how did you know to bring up Monterey George Ani he gave me about a one hour debrief on your history

he's been listening to your interviews and reading your books for years yeah I don't want to go too far down that road because that was the problem is what I remember is so bizarre and so horrible that I

suspect the memories but they're also really incendiary What's incendiary? What do you mean by, what's incendiary? What do you mean by that? Well, they're in the sense that if I saved them, people are going to really hook on to them. And I think that may be an intentional, in other words, they may have been planted in me in order to deceive people and take them on a wrong, down a wrong path. Strategic deception or something. Yeah, exactly. And that's why I never refer to them because I don't believe they're real. I think, you know, he sent me an audiophile I listened to where you were talking about it. What? There was an audio recording I listened to, which sounded like it was from a long time ago, where you were discussing Monterey. Yeah, I probably have a few times. But I remember more now.

And, you know, I just remember that it was children and it was very ugly. And there was government involved or intelligence involved? Well, that I don't know. but there were people who were involved who were obviously I had the impression they were military people that they weren't in uniform. But I don't know who they were. You see, when you're talking about my childhood, you're talking about a little boy in a very bizarre situation who had no way of understanding what was happening. and that's why the memories are so like one of the memories I remember seeing my sister holding this

hooked saw this and uh but why I mean and what was it what was it about and she surgical saw like a bone saw it was like a kind of saw that you saw tree limbs off of oh gosh yeah and and she looked terribly terribly upset and uh there were

bits of red material on the saw. And, you know, that kind of thing. I mean, I'll tell that much, but I'm not going to go into the whole lurid memory because I just don't know whether it's a terrified little child being confused or if it's something entirely different. I just don't know. And my dad and my sister are passed on,

and my sister would never talk about it. I never got to ask my dad about it because I didn't remember that part of it. And I remembered going to Monterey, and I remember there was something wrong. But I didn't remember any details like that until after Don Klein. And what happened, are we recording again?

Yes. Okay, good. All right. After, during the second hypnosis session with Don Klein, he suddenly asks me, how old are you? and I heard my little Texas boy voice pipe up 12. And I was shocked.

I mean, you're not like out of it when you're on hypnosis. At least I wasn't. You're aware of everything that's going on. But it's a very different state of mind. Like I was seeing, revisiting, reliving these things when I was with Klein. It was remarkable. First and second hypnosis sessions were remarkable. After that, the third session we tried, he said it's over.

We'll never be able to go there again. We tried a third time. It didn't work. Why would it have been over? Because I was responding, you know, it's suggestions. And when you are expecting the answer to, if you have expectations about what your answers are going to be, you will try to please the hypnotist. Got it.

And therefore, you will answer, you will confabulate without knowing it. And you will build a false memory in yourself. Okay. I've been very interested in the work of quite a good memory researcher called Elizabeth Loftus, who has been quite critical of the use of hypnosis, I think more critical than she should have been, because it was used in, in, in, you know, and. in these child abuse cases and really people were harmed by children being, being essentially hypnotized and remembering things that didn't happen.

Right. And that's a major issue in my life. I do not want to be the victim of my own memory. Did you ever meet Dr. John Mack? Of course. I knew him well. You were in one of his books? Am I in one of his books? he write about you in any of his books?

I don't know. Probably not. I'm sure you would know if he did. We mostly talked about practical jokes we played together. Oh, really? We were big pranksters when we were kids, both of us. And he never hypnotized you? No.

No, he didn't really hypnotize people. He used a breath technique. Oh, okay. He didn't, I don't think he did hypnosis. He may have. I'm not sure. But he was a wonderful man. and a very brave man. I'll never forget the morning and called me up and told me that he was in danger of losing both his license to practice psychiatry and his tenure. And I thought to myself, my God, what is he going to do? And, you know, and, and, unfortunately, Harvard saw the head of the department or whoever was in charge saw the situation more clearly.

eventually and the problem went away. But I remember that. I remember John vividly and I remember how I felt the morning someone called me and said John's gotten killed last night in London. John, I remember when he called me up and he said, there's an incredible case in Africa. I'm going to go over. over there and I thought my I should go with him but I didn't have the money at the time

we were going through the broke period which happened in the early late 90s and early 2000s so or I was otherwise occupied I forget which in any case it was 96 right yeah well I would have been the height of the broke period it was 96 so I've recovered somewhat fortunately but It was a long time of having not a lot of money. And so anyway, John, and he came back and he called me again. He said, Whitley, it is incredible. I made videos.

I'm going to send you the videos. And I got a box of these tapes. I realized it was an extraordinary story, but something that's not in the story that's terribly important. It is that the That area right near the school is an area where for generations, thousands of years probably, there has been a level of communication with the ancestors between the living and the dead, in other words. And this is a critically important part of the whole experience that is we're just now beginning to get our heads around.

One day when Anne was collecting all of the letters that are now at Rice University at the Archives of the Impossible collected by Jeff Criple now, she walked out of her office and there's thousands of letters

were coming in from people who had experiences after they saw the face on the cover of communion. And she said, Whitley, this has something to do with what we call death. Because so many people have the dead in their close encounter experiences and that happened when we had groups of people having experiences with the visitors with the grays up at our cabin which we had a number of times

how so how are the dead involved well that's an excellent question and let's leave that for the future to answer correctly i could only theorize um the um the um the um the um the um the um the um the um the What happens is that, well, I give you an example, to illustrate it. Lady Lori Barnes is at the cabin. She is Anne's secretary at this point, and she's had a close-and-counter experience. Anne would invite people like Lori Barnes and Raven, Dana, who have all gone out publicly with their experiences, to the cabin, and when she felt like the visitors would show up.

and she was uncanny about that. Annie was into this in a very unusual way. I don't know quite. I don't know if she knew what she knew. Let me put it that, but she knew a lot. And she seemed to be working with them in some way. In any case, Lori's walking down the road in front of the house in the afternoon. It's just before dinner, and she's taken a walk.

And suddenly her brother's standing there in the road. road. And she says, my God, how wonderful. How did you know I was here? Come down and meet my friends. And he says, I just wanted to tell you that I'm all right. And he drifts back into the woods, glides, and just disappears. And the reason she was so amazed is that he was dead. He had been. disappeared 20 years before, and the FBI had given him up as dead. And she thought he was dead, and then suddenly there he was. But then when he drifted off into the woods, she realized he wasn't physically there. He only looked physically there, only looked real.

And that was, and as soon as Anne heard that story, when Lori came kind of staggering in to dinner and told us this had happened. And he says to me quietly, the visitors will be here tonight. And they were there. They came in and they first went to Raven Dana. They went to a filmmaker, Drew Cummings, who was in the living room sleeping on the convertible couch with his wife.

And they went into the next room where Lori Burns was, one of them, and a different one in the living room. So she was absolutely right. And there's a connection. I'll give you another story. that illustrates this connection in a slightly different way. This is before the Internet in those gloriously quiet days of your. And I got a call from my agency.

Whitley, there is someone desperate to get a hold of you. And he's gotten a hold of the agency. And to find my literary agency in those days and find anything about a private person like me was not easy. So I figured, you know, I'll call this guy because he's trying so hard. So I phone him and he says, Mr. Streber, I want to tell you a story and I want you to tell me if I have any reason to believe this. My wife and I were sitting in the living room a few nights ago. It was, we had taken the dog out for a walk and the dog was asleep.

and she's an old dog and very much a creature of habit and suddenly she became extremely nervous and got up and wanted to go out again so my wife took her out and as they went out the front door what looked like a burning plane went overhead and disappeared beyond the trees and he was in the FAA

he was in the FAA and so she called back back to him, you're going to get a call. I just saw a plane go in on fire. And that moment, their little seven-year-old boy comes running downstairs saying, mommy, daddy, mommy daddy, little blue men came into my room with Johnny, his older brother, a teenager, with them. and he told me to tell you he was all right. And he wanted to know if this could be true

because his teenage son, a couple of weeks before, had been killed in an auto accident. These are the same people I saw with Jeff, with my aunt. I've lived with for years. They're connected to the grays in some way. And they are connected to our dead. They said Lori Barnes had had an experience. with them where when she was a young woman with pregnant with her first child she was asleep lying in bed reading actually at about 11 o'clock at night she was they were performers and her husband was out on a gig she had she was obviously at home she was pregnant and she noticed movement in the room she looked up and there was this terrible frightening looking little blue man dark blue troll like figure that i've now looked at

live with often. The little short, stalky ones. Yeah, exactly. What do their faces look like? You know.

Has there ever been any illustrations that accurately depict them? Yeah, the the ones in the communion movie are pretty close. Okay. They're pretty close. They sort of look like

they have almost, they're hard to look at. They're very crushed up faces. They have uniforms that have got a lot lot of pockets and straps and things on them. See if you can keep going.

So that's the big tall. That's the woman. Yeah, the one on the, the one beside the, the side Christopher with a round mouth. That's what they look like. The little stalking. Oh, the one the one like looks like it's blowing. Yeah. To the very left.

Yeah, that's. Right there, right next to Christopher walking. Yeah, that's, that's right. Nope, to the right. Blowing. Yep, right there. Nope, nope, nope. The green?

No. Look at Christopher Walkin. Oh, I see the blowing thing. Gosh. That's what they look like. Only their eyes are bigger and more insect-like, as I recall. And they have, that's one of their expressions. And another one is their face is just really flat.

By the way, how cool is it that Christopher Walken played you in a movie? That was pretty cool. I was pretty happy about that. That's pretty incredible. Yeah. I wish he hadn't sort of overplayed me because I'm really very sedate and quiet. And he said to me, well, you know, sedate doesn't work in a movie. What was it like when you met him and he was getting ready to like gear up for the movie?

What was it like when I met Christopher Walken? Yeah. Well, it was quite interesting. He was he was into it. He was definitely into it. He'd read the book and he was very aware of it. He'd read my script, which he thought was no good, and said no uncertain terms.

And he said, you know, the writer never thinks about the actor and what he has to say. And I said, well, you don't like my script? He said, no, I wouldn't say, that's close also, that picture. He says, no, I wouldn't say I don't like it, but we're still going to make a movie. And so he did make a movie, but not a lot of my script got into it. He had lived most of the movie. Really? Yeah, pretty much.

I think he did. At least I, that was my impression. Zoom out, Steve. Go back to the other picture. Go to the picture of the alien. It looks like the bottom of his face is ripped off. Yeah, right there. What's going on here?

That's nothing to do with my movies. They just, they altered the mood. That's something else. It's nothing to do with my movie and it's horrible. And how accurate is, go down, go down, go down, go down, right there. Up, up, the mean looking face. How accurate is that to what you saw? Well, I've seen something like that

In the hanging in the window of my house But it didn't have that sense of menace about it It was that color And it was just hanging in the window Okay But it wasn't menacing Although when you're face to face with it's going to look menacing Believe me

Right So we were getting ready to go jump down this rabbit a hole earlier, but I think we went off on a tangent. But I want to go back to the December 26, 1985 incident. Yeah, okay. Was that the most frightening and vivid experience you ever had? I had blanked out most of the really terrible things that had happened during childhood. So at that time, yes. At that time. Right. And you were in your 40s? I was 45. Or was I 40? Okay. Can you walk me through that? 40. I was 40.

To your best of your recollection, can you walk me through at least what you experienced during the hypnosis where you got more details from this? Well, yeah, by the time I went into hypnosis, I had pretty much the whole thing in my head. Only my problem was I didn't believe it could be real. Okay. And neither did Dr. Klein, by the way, we both thought. We didn't talk about this with Bud because he was convinced it was real. We were sort of laughing up our sleeves at him, to be honest with you. Because neither of us thought in for a minute this was anything to do with aliens.

Okay. I had forgotten it pretty much everything about my childhood. I remembered the two experiences I talked about earlier, but it's strange experiences. There's a third one I haven't mentioned, by the way, but that I also remembered always, which I will just I'll go back, we can go back to it. It's not an important experience. Okay.

But in any case, I had certainly not thought about flying saucers in years. I thought about them a lot in the 50s because there was a big UFO incident called the Leveland Texas UFO incident where the father of one of my closest

friends in those days had been a part of it. He had seen the UFO And it caused cars to stop, and his car had stopped on the highway and everything. So we boys were really, and we were eating this stuff up in those days. But, you know, you get older, you grow up, you become a teenager. You cease to be interested in aliens and become interested in girls.

Exactly. And I was intensely interested in girls. I couldn't have cared less about aliens, especially ugly aliens. So by the time I went to there, I was, by the time I went to Don Klein, I was sure something had happened. I was sure I had been injured and I was also pretty sure that I had been attacked criminally and that these faces and so forth had something more to do with some kind of drugs or something than they did with the real world. Right. So I was and but when the hypnosis session occurred. The first hypnosis occurred. I hadn't consciously remembered what I remembered

in the hypnosis. The conscious memory was of two friends Jacques Sandalescu and Annie Gottlieb were at the cabin in October of 1985. And we were asleep in the middle of the night, all of us. We were upstairs in our bedroom. They were downstairs in their bed in the guest room. And our son was in his room beside their room downstairs. And suddenly this huge light came over the house and just the windows were just, light was pouring in every window. And it just scared the living daylights out of me because I thought the roof was on fire because the wood stove had been burning. And I jumped out of bed. Then there was this, before I jumped out of bed, there was this big bang.

my boy started screaming I could hear Annie and Jock yelling I went and looked out at up the light went out at that moment so I went running downstairs

to get to Andrew who was still screaming and I passed Jock and Annie's room and said to Annie who Jock, yeah Annie was standing in the door as I recall or they may have both been there that it's okay

just go back to bed and I went comforted my son. How old was he? He would have been six, I guess, going on seven at that time. He'd been seventh birthday. It was a few weeks later. So, you know, we talked about it a little bit the next day, and they wanted to go home.

And so we took him home. And in the hypnosis session, I remembered seeing something standing like the dark blue figures in the corner of my bedroom. and that hypnosis session scared me worse than anything had happened before and it was the first time i began to think maybe this is real because what what i i didn't have any memory of this and i had remember at that point i had no idea what they looked like with the big eyes or anything like that but it'd been very careful to not let me get in near anything that had any pictures or anything like that That all came about after the first hypnosis, the images of them?

The images of them came about during the second hypnosis. The second hypnosis. The first hypnosis, all I got was the image of that dark blue figure standing in the corner of the room. And it was just terrifying, absolutely terrifying. Then the second hypnosis comes. And at this point, we're not really sure. We were laughing about Bud before. for hypnosis. We're not laughing so much now. But Dr. Klein is still fairly sure that this is some

kind of a crime that's been committed, which it was. I mean, it's just, I don't think it was committed by human beings anymore, but I did then. I'm not absolutely sure about that, though, to this day, believe me. I'm never, I'm never going to say that this is alien contact until I have proof, physical proof. And if people say it's imaginal or whatever, or interdimensional and so forth, and we can never get proof, then I'm going to stay where I am now. In any case,

midway through the second hypnosis, he suddenly says, Dr. Klein says, how old are you? And that's when my voice goes 12, and I suddenly begin to remember things from my childhood. And it was quite amazing, quite amazing.

And afterwards, I said to Dr. Klein, And how did you know to ask me my age? He said, Whitley, your voice had changed. And my experience of working with people who have been abused is that they will go back to the period of abuse. And their voice will return to the cadence and tone that it was when they were being abused. And then if I ask them questions about the abuse, I will get detailed and accurate answers. And that's how it should be done, not how it was done to the poor people who Elizabeth Loftus saved from the Huscal.

That's the real way to do it, and he did it right. But that was when we became rather sure that it was not human because it had happened in my childhood. And I put the memories together with the memories of my, those strange memories that had, been in my child. And the third one I referred to briefly was of being in this dark blue kind of like a big old-fashioned life raft, you know, with big tubular sides, floating over the neighborhood and hanging over the edge of it and having these guys, these little guys gasping and trying to pull me in because they didn't want me to fall off. And it's just a fragmentary memory. It meant nothing. I thought it was probably a dream and I never thought about it. But then after all this

happened, I thought maybe it wasn't a dream. And so that's where that kind of sits in my mind. But it's one of the little memories that's always been in my mind. Now, so we had a situation then where it had apparently been in my life. My dad had already passed away. My mother didn't said she didn't remember anything about this. But my brother said two things about when he told her about communion. The first time he told me that she had told her, I said, what did she say? And she said, well, she said, oh my God, Whitley's written about the little men. Yeah.

Now, he says, I never said that. She just said Whitley's written about little men. So which is true. I don't remember. I don't know. Okay. So. So there is one moment when you explain how these things carried you out to the forest into a little depression.

You felt yourself being elevated above the trees. And the next thing you know, you're sitting on a bench with this female entity that you believed it was female, but you didn't know for sure. It felt female. And later I found out it definitely was. And this is the image of the being that's on the front of your book with the big eyes, the classical UFO, the classical alien. What happened was, now this, we're moving to December of November. 1985 from October. Okay. Now, this happened. I woke up. Exema is unpredictable, but you can flare less with ebbglis, a once-monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema.

After an initial four-month or longer dosing phase, about four and ten people taking ebb glist, achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks, and most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing. Emglis, Lebrichizumab, LBKZ, a 250 milligram per two-millimeter or injection is a prescription medicine used to treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema. Also called atopic dermatitis that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical topical therapies. Ebglis can be used with or without topical corticosteroids.

Don't use if you're allergic to ebbglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Ebbglis. Before starting Ebbglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Ask your doctor about Ebglis and visit ebbglis.lis.com or call 1800 LilyRX or 1800 545-97579. Because there was movement around me.

And I was, when I woke up, I was already in the little room when I initially. Okay. Over the next few days, or a few weeks, I should say, I remembered this figure coming into the bedroom with a funny hat on and this like suit of armor, a little shield on its chest. And, but initially, when I was struggling with this, I was remembering mostly what had happened inside the room. Under hypnosis, there was added to it the memory of sitting in the woods with these other creatures, and they were all,

they were like, I perceived them as young people, and they were in these uniforms that were completely body suits, and they had on helmets that had round eye holes and round thing at the mouth. And they did not, in other words, look like grays. They looked like grays might look if they were wearing some kind of a mask. But the most vivid thing in the whole hypnosis, many ways, was the sensation of going up into the air, which I was like being in an elevator with no elevator. I just went right up past the trees, and I ended up in the little room.

And so you put all of that together, and it becomes a single coherent sequence, but it was fragmentary before the hypnosis. Before the hypnosis, I remembered mainly waking up in the little room. and being absolutely terrified that I couldn't move, and there were these huge insects in the room, and then thinking it was a nightmare, and then not being able to wake up further from it and panicking, and then this voice, this automatic voice came on going,

what can we do to help you stop screaming? What can we do to help you stop screaming? The answer was, well, one thing would be not anything you were doing now. But you know, there's an interesting side story here that I don't believe is in any of my books. About a year later, a friend who lived in the same area as we did came over to the cabin after he had read Communion, about two years later, I guess it was a year and a half later. It was about six weeks after Communion came out in 1988. That's when he would have come over. And he said, Whitley, I have something I want to talk to you about, which was not unusual.

I mean, you know, we were on the same private road, and we often had things to talk about. So he came in, and he says, I'm embarrassed to say that I saw this happen to you, and I'm, I ran. And I said to him, you're lucky you ran. You're alive. And he told me this story. He said he and his wife were coming home from a party at about 2 o'clock in the morning up in Woodstock and coming down to our place, our area. And he was passing down a road. And there's a number of fields.

It's very rural on that road. And he saw what he thought was the Goodyear Blimp down in front of a row of trees. in that field. It was snowy field. And he was a retired state trooper. And so he felt an immediate need to stop and render aid if he could because obviously two o'clock in the morning and the night after Christmas, the good year blimp does not belong in that field in any way whatsoever. So he stops, he gets out of the car, climbs the fence, and starts trudging into the field in the snow and he hears screaming

inside the thing and he starts to run toward it then and he it turns lights turn on all over it it starts to make a growling noise and comes toward him behind him in the car

his wife panics and he panics he jumps back in the car and comes home and he says Whitley I think it was probably you in there because it was the same night

and everything how far from the ground do you say it was hovering above the ground. He didn't say a specific number of feet, but I mean, I would say 10, 15 feet, not far, low enough to where he thought the blimp was in trouble. And he said, I think it might have been you in there.

And I'm so sorry that I didn't try to help you. And I said to him, you're here because you didn't try to help me. Do you think he would have been killed if you would have asked? I have no idea what would have happened to him. But whatever it was, it wouldn't have been good because they were doing this. And, you know, when they get their mind to do something, they're going to do it.

And if someone impedes their actions, they're going to react to that. I mean, you know, they're very passive until they're either threatened or impeded. How so? I mean, like, did you ever threaten them? They're going to shoot back at you. You're darn right. Now shoot back at you Who has shot at them that has been shot back at?

I think the Air Force has shot at them. Okay. In my book, Them, I go into that, and I go into a discussion of a MRI scan that was briefly up on YouTube, on Twitter. And it shows a brain with bad demyelanization in the area of the caudate and the Pudaman and that part of the brain, the executive area of the brain. The basal ganglia. Yeah, which is what you would harm if you wanted to make a person unable to light control an airplane. And this man apparently died a few days later, and this MRI was taken of an Air Force officer

who had been ordered on combat air patrol to fire missiles at one of these UFOs. the it was only up on the internet for a few days or maybe even a few hours but i did get a hold of a copy of it and it's still around i'm sure i have it myself and i discuss it extensively in them because of course it's very much like havana syndrome do you ever have your brain studied by any of these people like gary nolan or any of those people that oh yeah it's been studied by uh by someone in the central intelligence agencies oh yeah you mentioned that in the beginning that's how i found the implant Well, no, he was interested in the implant. There's no way I'm getting rid of the implant now.

I use it every day of my life. It's my go-to tool for writing, and it's my best writing tool you could ever imagine. But let's, the brain, my brain is the, you know, Gary has made studies of the white matter between the quadate and the Poudaman, and this white matter that controls communications in the brain. brain, that level of communication in the brain is very dense in like psychics and people who are involved in the close encounter experience. People who experience like paranormal stuff too, right? Right. So they looked at mine and this individual in the Central Intelligence Agency who has done a numerous, he's done studies of neurology of unusual brains, his whole career.

reported that it was high normal in terms of the density of the white matter, but that the way the white matter appeared and the way the connections worked were absolutely unique in his experience. He had never seen it before like that. I have a copy of that report. And I thought to myself when I read that, I thought, I remember that needle going into the side of my head, right in the right place to reach that area. And I thought to myself, maybe they altered me so that I could do this. Do what?

What I do. I engage with them on many different levels and write books about this engagement with the objective of helping. in the process of advancing us to the point where we are used to this enough and knowledgeable enough to where at least critical parts of the culture will not experience cultural colonization if they emerge. That's the purpose of my life to defeat that problem. Hmm. And if they do emerge,

as I say, it's going to be hard because the difficulty of the different relationship with time is going to be a very significant difficulty. When they're fully invested in a physical body, they're not like that. In other words, they can get into the time stream. But then they have a lot of limitations apparently. And they can't do much inside the time stream, not like they can from the outside. Inside, they can't do much when they're in here. When they can go, we are locked into our bodies. Yes. As I said, there's a place back here where you can be unlocked. And people like Robert Monroe had methods to unlock you.

And there are a lot of lots of people who teach you how to do out-of-body travel. Yeah. I've tried them all and failed at all of them. The only one's the way I can get out of my body is if the visitors take me out. Yeah, I had a guy in here who did a great job of explaining that stuff, David Morehouse. He was shot in the head in the military. Yeah. Yeah.

And then he did remote viewing as part of the Stargate. And he had brought in these extensive documents and like protocols that they would follow to like leave their bodies. And they were given coordinates and time timelines basically. And they were able to like project to wherever that was in a specific place in time. Like even going back to like the Titanic, they could put them. in like the middle of the Titanic sinking and like tell you what was going on. Anyways, sorry. Nothing good.

It's just interesting. Yeah. No, nothing good. Well, that, you know, that whole program was absolutely fascinating. I knew one, I knew a fair amount about the program after the fact. I didn't, and I'm, of course, now I'm known how for half my life. Right. Hal Pudoff and some of the others.

but I have no idea whether or not that program is still going on. It has to be, right? I would think so, and I think that it almost certainly is effective. And I know that people have talked here on this show about An incident is well known on the inside of where a remote viewer identified an incident in the future involving an attempt by terrorists to spread bacteria or viruses or something on the east coast on the southeastern coast of the United States that was intercepted by the coast guard. Right. And apparently that happened. So if they're not doing it anymore, if the program has really been closed down, somebody needs to go to jail.

Right. Yeah, no, that's definitely worth the money and investment to be able to do that kind of stuff. Oh, because the investment is negligible. Right, exactly. Okay, going back to the October incident, when you were in this, you got, you imagined yourself being lifted up above the trees. No, no, this is December. This is December. And you're in there.

and then you're sitting on a bench, you see these insect things going around, like moving around fast in the background. And then this one main being that you feel is female is sitting there with its legs up, staring at you. Yeah. And is it communicating? It's asking you, how can I help you stop screaming?

No, there was an automatic voice. A machine was saying that. Oh, so this wasn't inside you. This was external. No, no, it was outside me. Okay. It was a voice. I was not in any way,

prepared to do telepathy at that time. I was too excited and upset to even think about that. I couldn't have done it. I can do it now fairly easily. But no, not at that moment. I didn't even know it existed. And this is when they're trying to prepare you to, they

have this tool and they essentially summarize you with it. Yeah, well, what they do is and it's a known thing. It's not a mysterious thing from the beyond. It's a, it's used to this day an animal husbandry.

And in those days, they made these devices that would stimulate the nerve that causes an erection. And for people who had erectile dysfunction before Viagra, they would insert this into their rectum and turn this on. It would create a gentle electrical

current, and the result was an erection. And then the person could ejaculate, could have sex. Right. And as I say, when they're getting semen out of a bull, they do it now. It's a commonplace tool.

It's nothing exotic. So they wanted your stamen. They wanted to stick a needle in your brain. And then what else did they do? Send me the hell home. And I woke up the next morning all upset, not knowing why. And also during the experience, you said you have no right to do this.

And they said, we do have a right. Yes. Yes. What did that mean? Yeah, what do you make of that? Well, there's a lot. of possibilities. Maybe it's on some soul level. I don't know. Higher level. If so, they would have been nice if they'd explain themselves at any level, but in any case they didn't. What the other

possibility is, what if we did have contact with them back in the past? What if the Eisenhower meeting actually did take place? What if there was an agreement? And they did agree to let a certain number of people be be dealt with in this way and I think hybridized the there would be that would be one of the greatest secrets the United States possessed and you know I think that's a possibility too that they are crossbreeding humans and their own oh I know they are because they did to me and I I met the child in my back, in my, in the woods behind my house. Your own child? I guess he was my child.

At the time, I didn't know what he was. But I'll tell you the story. He, I was out walking in the woods one afternoon in August of, it was hot. And this was, we would leave, we were losing the house in the process of losing the house. And because, you know, unfortunately for me. The cabin. The cabin. Yeah, you.

A writer who's controversial people will buy, but as soon as he becomes a laughing stock, forget it. They're not going to buy that anymore. They're not going to, this is before the Internet. They're not going to go to a bookstore and put down money on a book where the clerk's going to snicker at them. And whoever got me turned me into a laughing stock over the, basically, they turned it into the rectal probe. It shows up on the first episode of Southport. Park as well yeah yeah and after that it's so that was the genesis of the anal probe your story yeah

no one ever talked about that before you no wow no my god and so i've ended up in the situation for 30 years of being laughed at from being which is an interesting position to be in believe me especially because it's my publishers felt like that story as it spread was destroying my sales because my sales just absolutely dried up. And I wasn't even writing about this anymore. And I was having good sales with some of my books. And then the next thing you know, they just start to die out. And I ended up with no money and no publisher and nowhere to turn.

We had to give up the cabin. We didn't, it was sold out of bankruptcy. You know, we were just destroyed. Absolutely. Anne and I had to borrow money from friends to eat at one point. It was horrible. Yeah. And we, so in any case, where were we?

You were saying that you were walking through the woods and you had a reason to believe that you saw like a hybrid child of yours. Oh, yeah. Okay. So I'm walking in the woods. And behind my house, there was a wooded area, then a cleared area going up a hill with a lot of rather rocky. And then beyond that, some pitch pines. and there's this boy sitting under a tree, right, you know, 50 feet from the pitchpines, smoking cigarettes, smoking a cigarette. A boy.

A boy. It looked like a boy from a distance anyway. And he was a boy, I found out later, but I'll get to that. So I think to myself, what in the world? What's a kid doing out here? And I figured, well, I understand he's out here so he wants to smoke, and he's not going to be smoking at home. It's not a, it looks like a 10-year-old or 12-year-old, maybe. So that I understood.

So I thought to myself, but he's too close to those pitch pines. If those things catch fire, this whole area is going to go up like a torch because pitch pines are full of pitch. That's why they're called pitch pines. Okay. And you light one on fire and whoosh. Oh, wow. It just explodes. So I walk over to him and I start to say, I'd like you to move, or where, you're

to that effect. And I realize, as I'm looking down at him, he's like a weathered child. I know that now because he didn't have adequate hydration and he smoked all the time, all the time. And I got to know more about him over the next few weeks, you may be sure. And he makes this, he's looking straight ahead. He doesn't look at me and he goes, ugh. And I think to myself, it was more menacing than that. that. I think to myself, I'm significantly far back in these woods. I didn't like that sound,

and I don't like this kid at all. I'm getting out of here, and I turn around and go back to the house. I tell Ann that there's this kid out there, and she says, we should call the sheriff. And I think about that, and then I think, I don't want to call the sheriff because people around here are very sensitive, and if I call the sheriff on one of their children, they're not going to like it whether the children is doing right child is doing right or wrong because i've already got a horrible reputation in the area some people who had done been doing clearing some poison ivy out of our trees had one of the grays uh walk across the road in front of them and then they had these snakes come up around their feet and stuff and they came the foreman came up to me and said mr streeper we're

leaving, those people of yours are running around out there and we don't want anything to do with them. And they left. They wouldn't even take any money from me. And they also didn't finish the job. So that kind of story was getting around the neighborhood and people weren't happy with that. You know, they were not pleased. And so I didn't want to have any trouble with anyone but calling a sheriff on their kid. Okay. So I let that go. The next thing we know, We're smelling cigarette smoke in the house. And the night, you know, warm nights, ruins are open. And I'm thinking to myself, is that kid out there?

And we begin to find places where he has been standing. And there'd be hundreds of cigarette butts. You know, it was 20 years later we could have taken some of these cigarette butts and gotten them DNA tested. But that wasn't real in those days. You couldn't do that. So I said to answer. He's out here. And we took a lovely hike.

We looked like to hike up to this lake up in the hills. Beautiful. And on the way out in the woods, three or four miles out in the woods, we're going along and we find one of these places where he's been standing. And we just went home. We realized those woods weren't ours anymore. That we knew by this time that there was something real weird going on. We liked to skinny dip at night.

And our pool was very private. So no problem skinny dipping at night. and we would skinny dip frequently. One night after he started in those woods, we were skinny dipping. And remember, the woods behind the house, there was a deck with a pool in it, and then thick brush. And under that brush, behind that brush were tall trees. So behind the brush, there was a clear area that you couldn't see into from the deck. And suddenly there's a sound of someone running up and down in that clear area, breaking sticks and

gasping. He could not speak. He could only gasp and make mouth noises. I found out later. And we realized it's him. And he's upset about the idea that we are in this pool, naked. And so we went back in the house. We didn't feel comfortable anymore outside because we obviously weren't alone. And this kid was upset. And it was very weird. And I made. We both knew by this time we were not, this is no normal child. Because a normal child, no one, no human being can smoke that much and live. And no normal child is in your woods all the time and never seems to be anywhere else. So we lived with him there coming up to the house and it was not pleasant.

And he came into the house a few times. and he he slept a few nights in one of the bedrooms and we would find the bedroom the bed unmade it like someone had slept in in the morning and the cigarette smoke everywhere it was not pleasant so was he smoking in your house he smoked in the bedroom yeah but apparently with the door closed because we didn't notice it while it was happening so who is this kid

well I get to that give me some time we got some time don't we Yeah, we got some time. All right. We lose the house October that year. I guess it was 96 or 97. It was so awful, I can't, I can't even, it's hard to remember exactly the year. And we leave for the last time. I'm thinking I will never go back again.

It turns out, by the way, there's a sort of semi-happy ending. The house is now owned by a couple who love my wife. work and love me and I get to go back a lot. Oh, wow. And I get to go back and I do, I am able to connect with the visitors at the cabin and I can explain why later if you want me to. Better than I can other places, more physically. So we leave. On the way down to Texas, We're going to stay in a condo in Texas that was the last thing we own. My mother lived in it. It's a little condo on a street.

It has a screened-in porch. And it's a two-bedroom, little tiny two-bedroom condo, and a little garden, and then there's the street. Okay, that'll be important in a minute. Okay. I noticed this car, this old ratty car driving behind us a number of times. And the thing about it that made me notice it was it had those lights that, you know, glowed without shining. And I thought, geez, could they be following me in a car?

Because I know those lights. I've seen them before. I'd seen them as a child, and I knew that kind of light indicated the presence of the visitors that that was no ordinary car. So we get to the house. I don't say anything about it to Anne because she's rather happy to be leaving all this behind, as you may imagine. We get to the condo, move in, a couple nights later, I smell cigarette smoke.

The situation with the condo is, there's a screened-in porch that the living room looks out onto, and there's also a trench door from the bedroom. It ends, and then there's a cul-de-sac, and the cul-de-sac is right where the head of the bed is on the other side of that wall. then there's a small alley and immediately cross the alley as another condo. That's the situation. So I go out on the screened-in porch and notice immediately movement. Someone goes around the corner.

It's him. He's followed us. And I find cigarette butts out there. What kind of cigarettes? What brand? Yeah, what brand? I have no idea. I don't like cigarettes.

I never touch. them. They disgusted me. I'm curious. Well, I don't blame you. Probably menthol the way he smoked. Newports? I don't know. I don't have any idea. I didn't...

I was not... I was too fixated on the fact that he was there to think about things like that. And then people in the condo can complain about him doing things to them. He's a feral child. and they call social services and social service people come looking for him. And then I become aware of the fact

that he seems to be living in the condo immediately behind ours. Oh, I installed a motion sensitive light in the cul-de-sac. And one night he's there and every time he moves, the motion-sensitive light comes on, and he's gasping and going on. And so he's pretty pissed.

off, obviously. At the same time, though, what's happening is I've noticed that these two men, these men were not of this world. I'll tell you why I know that. I was going down to the drugstore one morning to get some stuff that's right on the street corner. And I walked into the drugstore and it was very quiet. Everyone was just standing there except for one guy. And this was back in the day when smoking materials were all out, anyone could pick them up. This guy is putting cigarettes, cartons of cigarettes and tobacco and stuff in a big shopping bag. Right in front of everybody, the clerks are just standing there. People aren't shopping.

They're just standing there. They're all standing there. And the guy turns around and walks past me and gives me this familiar kind of knowing look like we're both on the same. side and I you know I you can see what I'm doing but none they can't and you're not going to tell anybody are you and he leaves and the whole place comes back to life the whole place I saw this with my own eyes so I thought screw I remember where I was getting I get the hell out of there and went back to the house and told Ann and so then we realized they're living there they're behind they're in the condo behind us

And I call the, and it's all this ruckus in the place because this weird kid is there. And so I call the management company. And they say, you know, it's a condo. And so not a co-op. So they don't know who's living where. And they say, well, you'll have to talk to the owner. And they gave me the owner of the condo's number in Houston. So I call him and he says, there's nobody living.

there. I use that when I come up to San Antonio to do business. I said, well, I'm sorry, there are three people living there, two men and a boy. And the next thing I know, the condo has a eviction notice on it from the sheriff, and the two guys are going from door to door trying to sell a man's furniture to all the rest of us who all know what's going on. And so then they get evicted. and the morning of the eviction, the boy comes blasting around the corner. I'm out in the garden with a cigarette in the center of his mouth like this, stalking off down the middle of the street. And I think to myself, he doesn't even know how to smoke.

I think this. And he grabs a cigarette out of his mouth and holds it to his side, as if he'd heard it like a voice, which I'm sure he had. Now, I have studied this carefully, this whole business of all this smoking, because this is unusual and these are human beings. And I believe there are two possibilities here. One is if you will remember in Native American culture and to this day in cultures in the Amazon, tobacco was used to communicate with another level of reality with the spirit world. There's other powerful drugs that do it better, but tobacco was what was used by the Native Americans.

And I would suspect that this was wild tobacco and probably extremely strong, as is the tobacco that's still used in the Amazon to do this extremely strong. Okay. So that would explain why he had to smoke so much because, you know, the regular cigarettes are not going to have that level of nicotine in them. Right. If that's the correct answer. The other possibility is if you read about schizophrenia, you find that schizophrenics, some schizophrenics smoke a great deal. and they smoke a great deal not because it quiets

the voices in their heads but because it makes them calmer in relation to the voices. It calms them down so the voices don't bother them as much. Now what if you had telepathy and you were hearing the voices of the people around you and you couldn't turn it off?

That might be a motive for constantly smoking because you would be like a schizophrenic whose voices were real. The cacophony would be appalling, I'm sure. and that that could be another reason for it. But it's real. You understand, we're talking about something real. And this is very hard for people to put their heads around

because you're talking to a guy who's been living with this for years. I'm living in this world and in another world at the same time. Everybody else saw this kid too. Well, I don't know who else saw him. Well, your wife saw him. Well, my wife certainly saw him. She sure did. And my wife saw him.

I'm guessing people in the condo swam or we wouldn't have gotten our door knocked on by social services asking if he was our kid which happened and your theory is that this could have been the hybrid alien child that you had I think he was my child and I think that extraction may have been something to do with him so if these beings pulled you up into their ship and extracted your seaman to impregnate an alien being and create a hybrid child. Why would they just abandon the child? Because he didn't work out. There was something wrong with him, obviously. And so they just left him to me in my woods without even so much as a buy-your leave. I think that's exactly what happened.

That's dark. Well, December of 1985, then 1996-97, he shows up 11 years later, and he looked like an 11-year-old kid. I mean, what am I supposed to think? And he looked a little bit like me, Ann said. And I was horrified. At the time I got mad at her. I said, he doesn't look anything like me. And she just

didn't say anything. But she was right. He did. And he looked more like one of my grandfathers, more of my striver grandfathers. So we got that. And if it's, it's not just me. There's, God knows how many people are having eggs and taken from their bodies. Right. And, And so the ones that don't work, they just drop them off in the woods. Good love. Well, they dropped him off in the woods. I can't say that about others because I don't know. And what do you think they do with the ones that do work? I suspect we might find out sooner or later. But right now, I don't know. I can't answer that question. I don't want to answer. I don't like to speculate. I've got enough weird stuff to talk about without speculating. Do you know, you've heard of David Huggins? Yes.

What do you make of him? Have you ever met him? No. Well, I don't like to talk. Well, you tell me what you make of David. You asked me a question about David Huggins. I watched his documentary Love and Saucers, and I found it absolutely fascinating. I don't know what to make. I know Jeffrey Criple met him.

He was in the documentary. Yeah. He seems like he truly genuinely believes what he says about his story of this woman who looks like a half alien, half woman. She has long hair. Yeah. He doesn't say that she had looked anything like that. the three foot being with the big head, but she did say it had big eyes, but it was far more human, like a Nordic-looking human woman with blonde hair, I believe.

Yes. And she had sex with them, and then she came back, and then she showed him the children that she bore from him. Yeah. He met the children. He drew these beautiful paintings of this woman with big breasts. Right. I know the story. Okay. The story is fantastical.

And it sounds like something that you could laugh at, right? Or you can just say like, oh, what a crazy cuckoo guy this is. But it seems to be very similar to a lot of the things you're saying. Well, the mind becomes, it gets a need to connect the dots. In other words, there may be less to the actual story than he's telling. But I will say this. I know David believes every word of it. And I also would think that the part of the encounter,

is true and at least some children are true and the reason I think that is I turned one of those women down when they tried to have sex with me so did you never had any like physical intercourse as oh no that's not true I did have oh you did I certainly did I'll tell this it was it must have been in a 88 89 maybe and how did this happened. Okay, I'll tell you the whole story. I woke up in a state of full erection lying on my back with a female whom we got to know quite well. She never sat down in a living room and chatted with her. She's in the house a lot and tell you more stories about her. Is this the main female entity you do normally see? I don't know if it's the same

Okay, but it looks similar or no? Yeah, it looks similar. Only she was somewhat human. From one thing, she had sexual organs, and the little ones that you usually see don't have sexual organs. No, they're not because they're grown. They're not born. And at least that's what I would assume, because if they don't have sexual organs, obviously they're not having sex and not having babies. Right.

But they're there, therefore they must be grown. So anyway, this is what happened. I wake up and I'm engaged in sex already with this individual. It's well along. I look up and I cannot see the face. The face is blacked out. But the body is a female body. Breasts.

With very small but existent breasts, thin arms and legs. that we're human. Like, it's a half human, half alien, half a gray human person. The room is filled with people, including, the room is filled with people, including one of them who I recognize.

He's an intelligence officer whom I've known at that point for years. And I have, at that moment, the most extraordinary experience of sex I've ever had in my life, despite the situation. It was brainbending and terribly upsetting to me because I was a married man and I'm very chased. I'm not going to be comfortable fooling around.

Recently someone... What was so good about it? It was just incredibly intense, and it was like a kundalini experience. It was so intense. It was just my whole body. I connect, not with my... with my entire body, it was brain bending. I'll never forget it.

Wow. And I told Annie about it immediately because I had to. But the truth was, I came awfully close with her a number of times because one thing about my wife is she knew what she was doing in bed. Right. So anyway, the next morning I wake up, I'm back in my bed. I'm obviously that I've had sex and Annie hasn't. It's quite clear the way I look and feel and smell.

And I tell her the whole story immediately, of course, because, you know, there's no way. I mean, if I'm going to fool around, I sure as hell, but I'm going to fool around with anyone because I really love my wife. Right. And, you know, she's the only one, it's the only woman excite from her that I've ever even had sex with. This is in the cabin, by the way? In the cabin, yeah. In the old cabin. In New York.

In New York, yeah. So I think to myself about the guy. The CIA guy. No, he was an intelligence officer. He's not in the CIA. another agency. But as I say, I've known him a long time. For other reasons, nothing to do with this.

And I thought, what in the hell if, did I remember that or not? And I didn't know how to talk to him about it. Because, you know, I couldn't very well say to someone who knew essentially nothing about this. Hey, were you watching me have sex with an alien in my guest room? He did know about the visitors, though, right? He may have. But why would you be involved with intelligence if it wasn't about this?

You know, as a writer in the old days, you were called upon to, they wanted you to go places where a writer could be going without suspicion during the Cold War and report back on what you saw. They were using you as a spy? Not a spy exactly, but sort of. An agent? No, no. Yeah, no, I guess. You were recruited. I was recruited, yeah. I was recruited when I was at school in England, and I did a few things. I mean, not much. I did a few things when I was in. For the MI6?

No, for the CIA in England. This is an amazing detail you left out. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's not an amazing detail. It's just how many writers did it in those days? Many. So you woke up, you had this experience of having intercourse, amazing intercourse, with this female hybrid alien.

And this guy is there. And this guy's in the background watching. Right. Now, as life unfolds, it turns out he's heavily involved in this visitor style. and I think to myself, should I ask him about it? So I ask him, I've asked him a few times, if you've ever been to my cabin, he always says no. And I didn't know what to make of that,

because in fact, people can do things. And I think my father might have been such a person for the visitors that they don't remember. And I probably have that in my life, too. I think everyone who's gone, I think they control the stream of your memory when it comes to them. Okay.

They don't probably care about the rest of it. They control that. Okay. So, anyway, here is what then happens. Fast forward 30 years. I meet a guy from Romania who seeks me out. It turns out we have mutual friends in California. And the mutual friend says that he wants to meet me.

And I say, sure, I'm very available. People want to meet me if they don't talk too long. If they talk to me too long, I'll turn it off. Okay. But I'm open. I'm not a closed door. I'm not a celebrity. I don't think of myself that way.

I'm a guy's had a lot of weird things happen, and I write about them. That's my life. And so, anyway, I meet the guy. He's a very nice man and incredibly brilliant. He speaks, he speaks like five languages. Okay. And he is a graduate of MIT. And so, you know, he's obviously way up there mentally.

Okay. And he says, this is why I want to meet you. I had an experience when I was a boy. I was in a motel at home in Romania and it became completely dark. I couldn't see anything. And I know it has something to do with them, the aliens, the grays.

And I think he may have added, I'm not sure he did. No, I don't think he said this. and I want to know if you can help me in any way with it. All I remember is being told something, and when I came out of it, I had underlined a name in a detective novel I was reading. And I was told that this man knew something that he had been told he was never tell to anyone. And I said, well, what's the name? It's the name of the intelligence officer who was in there that room 30 years before.

Whoa. And this man, this gentleman is totally alive. And, you know, he'll tell you the story himself. Still alive today? Absolutely. No, both of them are. And the officer either doesn't remember it or will not say. I don't know which.

But he has been heavily involved in this whole thing for years. And he was there. That's kind of bizarre. That's kind of hard to process. Like, what do you mean? What is your, I know you don't want to speculate on things, but what do you make of it? What do you make? What do you think, do you think he is involved with them somehow?

Do you think he's a hybrid? No, he's not a hybrid. If he's a hybrid, they got work to do. No, he's a wonderful guy. I think he's a marvelous man. And I like him very much. We've been friends a long time now. And the young man, the rich,

Romanian guy is also a wonderful man and brilliant. They both are. So, you know, these are all good people. And, you know, people like to hate. And, you know, intelligence officer, Whitley Streber involves CIA. Hate him forever. Forget it. This is a more complex world than that.

It's a bigger world in a more complex world. And we have to do better. We have to get away from the believe it or don't believe it, hate, love, all of that. and look at the whole thing in a much more objective way. Yes, I've had entanglement with the intelligence community for a lot of my life. I come from a family that did, so that's quite natural. I have never done anything that I would be ashamed of. There was another experience you explained in communion about being in Europe.

I believe you were in a hotel with a woman, and you guys... Yeah. There was a... That was... What was that? Oh, God. But you left a part out of communion. There was something you wrote about in a different story

where you guys ended up in the Vatican. Yes, we did. You want that story? Yeah, what's this one about? Oh, this is wild. Okay. I'm traveling in Europe. I'm a young guy.

I'm basically... Like, as I said earlier, I was very interested in girls. I turned out to be very chaste But that's another story So I meet a girl on the train In Italy going to Italy And we chat We both decide to get off in Florence

She's going to meet friends in Florence She's in the arts world And We have We go to share a pensioni And we make out and stuff We do not make love but we make out and we have a lot of fun actually.

I meet her friends and they're all art students and there's a lot of stuff being done at the Uffizi because all of the paintings had to be taken upstairs because there had been a flood on the Poe and they're being brought back down and I'm involved in that. It's really a lot of fun. And so then we go on to Rome and everything's fine. We get in another pensione and you know we have no money on it. and so we're really living very rough, but having loads of fun.

And we go to the Vatican. I have no idea who this girl is, basically. I know her name, our first name. I don't even know her last name. Yeah, actually, I do. I remember her last name now. And so, but I know nothing about her, except that she's from Ireland.

She's English-Irish. In other words, she's an English person who lives in Ireland, and they're a few, I guess, from Northern Ireland. Okay. And go to, to the, where we go to the Vatican. And typical of me, I managed to get myself lost in the catacombs under the Vatican.

I'm the only person I know who could make it. And finally, I get out of there and I'm walking around trying to find her. There's no cell phones or anything in those things. And she's walking, stalking along in the, in the, in the, in the, in the, of the Vatican, and she's totally crazy. She looks like a vampire. She's just furious about something and won't talk, and she's glaring straight ahead, scares the hell out of me, and I think, perhaps I don't want to sleep another night with this

woman because she's beneath the surface, there's obviously a fantastically crazy person going on here, and I'm not up to this. I haven't had any weird experiences yet at all. So, I mean, except my childhood, but I don't remember much of that at that time. So I go back to the pension, and I decide I'm going to, I'm going to scaddle. Her suitcase is lying there, and I think to myself, maybe I should just look inside that suitcase. I'm curious. I wonder who I am with.

And I do open the suitcase. It's not locked. And here is what I remember seeing. Now, understand, I'm still a Catholic boy at this. point. I'm not seriously Catholic. I'm, you know, occasional mass Catholic, but I'm not a non-believer. Your parents raised you Catholic. Yeah, right. Your parents raised me Catholic. Open the suitcase and there, on one side, is a nun's habit. A nun's what? Habit. A nun's clothing, black and the white thing and a, and I think, oh no, she's a nun. She's a nuns.

nun, she's left the nunnery and she's crazy in the Vatican because of the fact that she's escaped nun or a nun who is leaving. And I've been having not sex but close to it with a nun. Whoa. This is, young Whitley is horrified at himself. Then I notice on the other side what appeared to my mind to be a dried owl, a crows. crushed owl. Owl. And I think, okay, I was right. She is completely crazy. I closed the suitcase, and the next, I went up to Termine, Rome, the train station of Termini, that Pansioni was right

near it, got on literally the next train that was moving out and didn't get off the train until I was in Strasbourg. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home. With agents who close twice as many deals, when you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get started at Redfin.com. Own the dream. I just got out of there. It scared the hell out of me. And I still don't know. I know the, I'm not sure that it what happened there but obviously there was something way off i i thought it was something

else that you found in her suitcase i thought it was uh skin no the skin of like a of a human no absolutely not no anyone who said that to you was was was blowing smoke in your face that's i never said you never said that or wrote about that absolutely not huh i wonder how that would have got out there oh because people like to embellish things have you heard that before people say that no i haven't I've never heard that before. I don't know who said it either, but somebody probably did. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised. Interesting.

Are you religious now? No, not really. You just wrote a book about Jesus. Yeah, well, it's not a religious book. It's called Jesus A New Vision for a reason. It's a book that is going to try to re-establish the validity of the teachings of Jesus for people who are not religious people. And what made you want to do that?

I think the teachings are very valuable and very important. I think there's a lot that's valid. I could also do the same thing with many of the other religions, but I've just done this with that one so far. And what I did was this. First, nobody understands what caused Christianity to come about because the religious scholars who write about it are all coming from, mostly from a religious standpoint. Yes.

But there's another way of looking at it entirely. Like people think that some malignant force caused the destruction of the Roman Empire. You know what caused it? The Sun caused the destruction of the Roman Empire. And how did this happen? Well, from about 500 BC to 100 AD, there was something in the Mediterranean basin known as the Roman climate optimum. That is to say, the climate of the Mediterranean basin was ideal for the growing of crops and the seasons were very regular. The result of this is the Roman Empire comes about, its population grows enormously, they build roads, they have sea lanes,

they have a number of large cities, including mainly Rome, but others that require very substantial food services and in a world where the transportation of foodstuffs is very challenging. So this is where we are in 100 AD when, as we know from stalagmite or stalagmites that have been measured in a cave in Scotland, the solar output increased slightly. And it does that every once in a while. It increases some and decreases some. And when that happened, the Mediterranean basin went into a. protracted state of drought and all of a sudden all of these people couldn't get food. The result is their immune systems become stressed because they are malnourished. We then have the first great Roman plague because these people, they have no germ theory,

they have compromised immune systems because they're malnourished because of the solar activity, the change in solar output, they are moving around the area as they did not certainly before even 1 AD. I mean, it's really a going concern at that point. The first plague occurs, the Aurelian plague,

the plague at the time of Marcus Aurelius, which causes such disruption and the population that at one point he's got to sell the furniture and the contents of the imperilious imperial palace in Rome in order to keep the country's army paid. So it's a big upset. Now, this is a world in which the religion and the state are not just, it's not just church and state.

They're the same thing. If you, if you are a Roman, the Roman gods are Rome. They are Rome. Jupiter and Venus and all of the different Roman gods, Mars, they are Rome. They are the personification of your state. And your state and your gods are essentially the same. So everyone, of course, runs to places like the temples of Asclepius, the healer, to get healed. Now, in those days, you did not, when you did to sacrifice, it had to hurt. You didn't just go in and, you know, throw a couple of coins in. You went in and you took a bullock or you took something of value to yourself,

something that would be a significant sacrifice and you gave it to the God. And in return, the God was supposed to help you, to heal you. Plague after plague came and the gods didn't help them. About 300 AD, there hasn't been a plague for a while. but the relationship between the people and the gods has deteriorated to the point that the temples are now starving. No one bothers. They don't hate them yet. They're starting to, but they don't hate them yet.

And they are stopping sacrifice. Constantine, who was a political genius, realizes this problem. and sees that the social fabric of the empire is declining. There's crime, there's inflation, there's all kinds of problems. He also sees that his mother is a member of one little cult called the Christians who believe that this Jewish rabbi from Jerusalem was a special representative of God. And they have something called the De Da Da Da Daoche, which is a special representative of God. rule of life that has enabled them to remain intact through all the plagues because they have

this tight social unit that takes in the orphans and that they have the parabeneri who go out and help the people who are sick, even at risk of their own lives. In other words, it's a very powerful social organization and it's intact. And he brings that into the Roman Empire and announces that Christianity is the new religion of the Roman Empire. But he does it this way. He moves the birthplace of Jesus, which was probably Nazareth, to Bethlehem and places him in a cave, the birthplace in a cave that was traditionally the cave where Venus gave birth to Adonis. In other words, he replaces the Venus and Adonis story with the story of the Holy Family. And Jesus takes on the trappings of a Roman god, essentially a sun god.

He replaces Adonis as I am the way, the truth and the light, and becomes Christianity. Now, this is good and it's bad. It's good because it preserves the teachings of Jesus, at least some of it. of them. It's bad because the plagues continue, and because of the plagues continuing, the Christian parts of the empire become venomously angry at the gods. Because in those days, the gods were the statues. The statue of Apollo and the temple of Apollo was the God. And they were specially treated so that the spirit of the God could come into the statue. It was all very...

Now, so the people start to destroy the gods. They tear down the temples. They break the statues. That's why all those statues from there have broken noses and no arms broken off because they were being beaten with hammers because the people were trying to kill the gods because they had decided these plagues were so bad that, for example, at one point, Constantinople was so depopulated, the emperor had to send the army out into the hinterlands to force people to repopulate the city. I mean, it was horrendous.

It was unimaginable. It makes COVID look like a picnic. And through all of this, gradually, the entire old religion is destroyed. there are a number of libraries that are destroyed. The one that we always think about, of course, is the library at Alexandria, which went slowly over a period of time. The killing of hypatia was the really the – that's what we should remember is the worst thing that happened there because the destruction of the library was not an intentional burning in one go.

It was a gradual decline in interest and activity and a series of fires, some of which were probably set. And so we lost a lot. We lost a lot. And the fact that the Antikythera device is so sophisticated. And we have no idea. We have no record of it. No one wrote anything about it. We didn't even know what it was built for until recently.

that's because those records were all destroyed, I'm sure, in the destruction of the knowledge of the classical world. But the knowledge of the classical world was destroyed because people thought that those gods had turned against them. And they demonized their own gods. And they were left with a God, Jesus. And they proceeded, I'll tell you, the saying's gospel of Thomas, which I finally translated myself. Because so many of the translations. What was the original language? Greek.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Oh, so you know Greek? No, no. I knew Greek. And I knew Greek when I was working on the book. I knew Greek and Latin when I was young pretty well. And I re-generated the Greek and learned a little Aramaic when I was working on Jesus' New Vision.

Because I wanted to see the original language as best I could. Okay. But I would not say I was a little. I would love to say, oh, yes, I know classical Greek, but unfortunately I don't. I know enough classical Greek to certainly do a translation and then to look at dictionaries and historical dictionaries to try to understand if the words are meaningful in different ways because they've been, those translations have mostly been done by scholars with agendas. That's why I did it. And it turned out that... And they're also coming from the canons, too.

They're coming from these gospels. They're not coming from classical sources. No. But the sayings gospel of Thomas is a different story. It's probably the oldest gospel. Sayings... It's just a group of sayings. That's a much older form than the narrative story gospels list.

narrative gospels are among the first real stories that were, they were like the early novels, basically. And their contradictions between them because these men weren't in communication with each other, and they're all trying to tell the story as they had known it from their friends. When was the gospel of Thomas authored, 150? It was the earliest, so it was probably around the time of Mark, 50, and. AD, I believe. And probably before that, because there are things in Mark that would have come from it. But here's the difference between the sayings gospel of Thomas and all the canonical

Gospels. The canonical Gospels are laying it out, telling you what to do. This is that. And then Paul comes along and adds to that rules. But the saying's gospel is very different. At one point, Jesus takes a disciple aside and tells him a secret. And he goes back to the others and they want to know the secret. And he says, if I told you the secret, you would have to stone me to death.

At another point, Jesus says, don't go to people's houses and eat what they give you. In other words, violate the dietary laws. don't be a good Jew. He says, don't pray at one point. He says, don't believe me. In other words, he's saying, be your own person. Do it yourself. Don't be in a religion.

Make your own journey. Find your own way. And then Constantine comes along and says, nope, we've got an empire to preserve here. Right. We're going to take this and make it into a rule. And that's why I wrote Jesus a new vision so that we could understand why that was done and what was originally intended. And what was originally intended was to find your own journey and make that journey. And Jesus leaves all kinds of hints as to what to do, to do.

that. Have you ever, have you discussed this with any sort of classicists or philologists or linguists this stuff? Do you think people like that would talk to Whitley-Strieber? I don't think so. Why not? Because I'm the Brechtel probe man, among other things. Mr. Saucer Sam. What other sort of sources did you look at besides this, this gospel to write this book? I'm a good, an efficient researcher. I looked at an enormous amount of stuff. Did you read any like any other texts, like any sort of like plays or stories or medical texts or anything?

Have you ever read any ancient medical texts? I can't read Greek, but I've read translations, yeah. Yeah, well, I can't read the Greek medical texts. Have you heard of Galen, Marcus Aureli's physician? Galen, Galen had some fairly unfortunate ideas that almost certainly didn't work well at all. Like what?

Oh, read some of his, I can't remember precisely, but just read some of his potions and things. Yeah, the Theriac. You were supposed to drink this? Yeah, bodily fluids, stuff like that. Oh, God, I mean, rabbit, I don't know. It didn't work. They didn't know what they were doing. Magic worked better than religion, and that's another thing I get into in Jesus' New Vision, because magic works if people believe it.

And maybe it even works when they don't know it. It's very interesting that the way it works. Like we call something, we call it the placebo effect now. They didn't know about the placebo effect. They didn't, they hadn't disempowered it, in other words. So when a magician, if you had a case of hysterical blindness or a skin disease that was basically, a nervous disorder or many different types of neurosis or psychosis, you could be cured by a magician absolutely in those days. Because if you believed the magician, you were going to get the cure.

And Jesus was very, very good at sympathetic magic. He was an extremely powerful and convincing magician and that is preserved in the gospels very adequately he was also from what i understand from other classicists is that he was very involved with drugs and in fact no idea about that the term christ is a is a greek word and it means to a it means to apply drugs to the eyes so you may so you may see well the the magical way of applying of curing blindness in those days was to apply spittle to the eyes not drugs and that was in the that was in both the Egyptian

and the Greek magical texts and you can see Jesus doing that in a couple of cases as I recall I don't go down the road of drugs

but I do know they're very important I'm not disputing that at all I have long wished that we said some kind of drugs were ubiquitous in those times absolutely yeah

well Graham Hancock wrote a wonderful book about drugs in the earlier in the Stone Age. Drugs have been a part of human life until the prohibition ended and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms suddenly didn't have a job and they decided to illegalize marijuana and heroin, so they still have work to do. Right. Well, the use of drugs also when it comes to what they were doing in elucis with the Illucinian Mysteries, those rights that they were doing, they were drinking

Urgot and other drugs that were basically, I mean, all these pagan cults are around this time too where this is where the idea of death and rebirth came from. Right. And, you know, a lot of classicists believe that this was the use of drugs and these illucinian mysteries that were going on for 2,000 years were responsible for the explosion

of intellect and thought and creativity back then. Probably were. And, you know, it wasn't until around 400 AD that they burned down elusis. And that led us into the dark ages.

They went stupid, basically. Because the the culture's response to the stresses that they were under had not been effective. In other words, they didn't get the cures that the gods were supposed to give them, and they abandoned their own culture as a result. That's what happened. That's why Christianity became what it was, and they tried to purify their world by destroying all of the old gods and everything connected with them, including all of the knowledge,

in hopes that this would please Jesus and Jesus would come, the Christ would come and save them, because they had no science worth mentioning and no idea of what was happening to them. To them, it was a supernatural event when a person got sick. Mm-hmm. And, you know, Christianity was responsible for the suppression of a lot of science and a lot of free thinking and a lot of new ideas. Yeah, it's had trouble with science for a long time. Because if we found out that we weren't the center of the universe and there were other planets out there and God, if there's all these worlds out there, how come Jesus just came to our world? Just because we are the only ones who sinned? We were the only imperfect aliens out there in the universe.

Well, you know, there's a very interesting part of Jesus' New Vision, which is about the resurrection and about what is actually known about the Shrout of Turin. Now, I recently on my website, there's a significant social media section of it. Someone put up a thing saying, I don't believe that there was a resurrection because Jesus died on the cross and there was nothing that happened on the cross that was unusual in any way. he simply died. And I thought to myself, this is very clever. He died early. Well, he died early, yeah. But that's, and it's possible, of course, it's possible there was a twin.

And it's also possible that he wasn't really dead when he was put into the tomb. But that's not what the story of the Shrout of Turin tells. The Shrout of Turin tells a very strange story. And no matter how hard the convention. scientific community has worked to debunk that story, it's still there. The mystery still exists. Back in gosh, the 70s, Ann and I were introduced to two Air Force officers, Jackson and Jumper who wanted to test the shroud of Turin. It was a father Peter Rinaldi who introduced them to us to this project. And we contributed a little money to it. We would have contributed more,

but we didn't have more. And so we were very involved in the Shroud of Turin project. And as soon as I heard that the testing was going to be done at Oxford, I knew it would be false. And I wrote, I believe, Father Rinaldi saying, do not do this. They cannot afford to have their paradigm destroyed and they will tell lies and not even intentionally they will do it in all good faith, but they will still be false. And indeed, if you look carefully, you will find that the parts of the shroud that were taken were too close to the burn marks from the 15th century fire to give accurate carbon dating. they were going to give carbon dating later than the shroud actually was. And so that carbon dating is not correct. And they will stand by it because they did it very carefully and very correctly,

but they did it to the wrong area. And they may not even consciously be aware of that, but that's what happened. There has been extensive research done into the shroud since then. There's a wonderful book out called Test the Shroud about the Shroud and about the work. and about the work that's been done so far and what needs to be done additionally. And it's quite convincing because I think there's truth to it.

Among other things, the image is burned into just the absolutely top micro, just the top edges of the linen in the claw. And that could only happen with a very high intensity very sudden flash, very high intensity, very sudden. There was, remember, an earthquake and the temple was, the drape in the temple was torn,

probably something happened in the tomb at that moment. And this is where we get into the area that the Western mind does not want to accept yet. And it's not just this. It's a whole lot more that there is a large part of human experience and human reality that we have turned off. We have put blinders on ourselves. We've gone blind to our own souls. We don't believe we have them even. But they are the only thing that matters.

And I believe me, the visitors know that. If you're around them very much, they're real interested in your soul. and some of them want your soul to be screwed up because then they can get it when you're dead and they can do what they want with you and God knows what that is but it's certainly not going to be good news. So these visitors, they don't have good intentions necessarily.

They have... They have selfish intentions, would you say? You have to look at them the same way we look at ourselves and when we look at ourselves we see a huge, complicated mass of different beliefs, different intentions, different desires, different levels of intelligence, all of that. They're the same. They are just as complex, if not more so, and probably more so, because they are older,

and they do have abilities that we do not have anymore, although I think we did in the past, as Jeff Kriple talked about on this show, actually, and about the ability to fly, and so the levitate and so. Right. We've turned all that off. We turned it off for a very good reason. A thousand-year oppressive religious dictatorship that was stifling knowledge. Christianity.

Christianity. When on the nature of things, Lucretius' poem was rediscovered in Germany in the 14th century and was reprinted all over. Europe, suddenly the idea of a scientific method was rekindled in the mind of the people of the Renaissance. And this is where people like Galileo and Copernicus were coming from. And Giordano Bruno, they were trying to become scientists in a world that would definitely burn you to death if you weren't careful, which happened to Bruno.

And we shook that off of ourselves, off of. of our backs, and now any sign of any interest in that level of human reality terrifies our intellectuals because they think, my God, if we let this out, the next thing we know, religious fundamentalists are going to be back in control and we're all going to be burned again. Our lives will be destroyed. And if you look at Project 25, you can see it written right there. Project 25. Is that the...

That's that thing that's sort of in the... That like extreme right-wing agenda thing that came out. Yeah, whether it would ever be adopted by anyone, I don't know, but it's there. Yeah, I saw that. And I've read, it's 900 pages long, and I have to admit that I read an outline of it and I page through it. And basically, it's a return to the medieval world. Yes, I agree. Basically is what it is.

Yeah, I tend to think when things like that come out that they're just like intentional things to divide society and to create and maintain control and things to well, you know, nope. I've heard some of the people come out like Trump and some other people, right wing people that people have been questioning them about this project 2025 thing and they're completely like ripping it to shreds saying like I don't know where this is coming from. This is like an extreme right wing thing like we don't. Unless it's actually created by the extreme left wing in order to make the right. Exactly. Exactly, right. I mean, it could be anything. There's so much deception going on. You can't keep anything straight.

I'm not even, I'm not in that world. And I'm not going to go into politics of Trump and Harris now. But I'm just saying that exists. Yes. And it is a return to what we were before the, before the Renaissance. Yeah, I tend to agree. So. And I don't think, you know, I don't think real people take that kind of stuff seriously.

We're not going to go there. No, definitely. No, they have to face the fact that that we're, free now and ultimately we're going to stay that way. Yes. Also there was a guy there were I had another guy on here about a year ago named Chris Bledsoe. I know Chris you know him yeah he he's gonna be on my show dreamland a couple of weeks oh cool yeah um super sweet guy I loved him yeah he's a lovely lovely man he he mentioned there was a person who I don't want to mention his name because I think that that's what got his episode band off my channel, or it's unsearchable now on YouTube if you search for our podcast we did

together. There was a guy he mentioned on there who was very shadowy, who approached him and became friends with him and his family, who was involved in many different agencies. No, I know who you mean. Yeah. Have you ever talked to this guy? Yes. What do you make of him? I don't want to go there except to say that he's very sincere. Very sincere. Very sincere. Very sincere. And I'm not sure he knows whether or not he's telling the truth. You don't think he knows whether he's telling the truth. I think a lot of them don't. I think a lot of them are unintentional disinformation agents. Yeah. I think the visitors are heavily involved in all of those people and they are controlling what they say. I don't think their minds are their own. You have to be

very disciplined and you have to know, you have to experience telepathy consciously in order to not fall victim to it. And it's very easy for these people to be parroting something the visitors are wanting them to say when, in fact, they think it's their own mind. And so, and I don't think the intelligence community is at all proficient in dealing with that. I'm pretty, I wouldn't say I was proficient, but I do know when it's happening to me. And I think I do. But I do. But, but I think I do. But I always tell myself, Wittley, be careful because if you think you know, maybe that's when you don't know. Right. You know, so you have to be very careful.

That's why when I talk, I try to only talk about things that have a definite memory. I don't like to speculate because I think that opens my mind up to control. So I don't speculate. Okay. And I do not wish to be controlled even by people who want me to say things I would like to say. I want to say it myself. Right. And so no speculation from me or very little, as little as I can get away with.

Well, Whitley, we almost just did four hours. Are you kidding? This has been a fascinating conversation. A real brainbender, as you would say. Thank you so much for your time. Well, you know, I have to tell you, A, it's a wonderful show. B, this was a very cool interview. You're brilliant. I appreciate that very much. Thank you.

I've been riveted this whole time. I don't think I said more than like 10 words this whole podcast. You know it's good when that happens. Tell people where they can find your stuff, your books, your podcast, all that stuff. Okay, well, listen up then. My website is unknown country.com. Oh, there we go. I am on Instagram at Whitley Streber. and I am on YouTube at W. Striever and Dreamland. My podcast is called Dreamland. You can get it on Apple Podcasts or any other podcast apps, and you can also watch it on YouTube.

You can subscribe to Unknown Country, which would really be nice, because like all of us, I'm desperately trying to get money to keep doing this, and it's $4.95 a month, and there's lots of different options. Oh, look, there's your channel. Yeah, and there's my channel. And why do the grays appear as owls?

Mike Cleland is such a cool guy. I had him on here. You did? Yes. Well, then you know. He's a very, very cool guy. Yeah, he is. And my new book is Them.

I'm working on a book now, which is going to, I hope, blow everybody's socks off. It should be out by December. And I have a book of poetry out. And it's called a Hidden Garden, and it's available on Amazon. It's got like four reviews, but they're really good reviews. And if you like poetry or any of you don't, just take a look at it. There's a good long sample on Amazon and an audiobook sample too. And I'm very interested in poetry.

That's another level of my existence. And I don't expect to sell many copies of Hidden Garden, but I love making it. Beautiful, man. Again, thank you. I'll link all that stuff below so people can go check it out. And we are going to do a little. Patreon Q&A. We got some people on our Patreon who asked Willie some questions. So we are going to go do that. And that's it. I hope you enjoyed and good night, folks.