Danny Jones Podcast - #287 - UFO Whistleblowers, NASA Time Travel & Psychic Soldiers | Jesse Michels

Episode Date: February 24, 2025

Watch every episodes ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Jesse Michels is an investor & journalist known for his YouTube show "American Alchemy," where he explores UFOs, physics, philosophy and the nature of reality. His YouTube channel features interviews with notable figures such as Jacques Vallée, Garry Nolan, Hal Puthoff, Eric Weinstein & Dave Grusch. In addition to his online endeavors, Jesse manages a venture portfolio on behalf of Thiel Capital. SPONSORS https://manscaped.com - Use code DANNYJONES to get 20% off plus free shipping. https://evening.ver.so/danny - Use code DANNY for 15% off your first order. https://hims.com/danny - Start your FREE online visit today. https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off GUEST LINKS Jesse's YouTube Channel: @JesseMichels https://whop.com/jessemichels https://www.instagram.com/jessemichelsofficial FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - The 'GHOST' agent of the UFO world 07:12 - Thomas Townsend Brown 18:08 - Investing for Peter Thiel 23:30 - Paul Bennewitz story 27:32 - UFOs & nukes 35:26 - Why did CIA hire Bob Lazar? 45:14 - Jacques Vallee's obsession with angels & demons 48:23 - Alex Jones' secret genius 54:25 - Varginha & Roswell UFO crashes 01:01:31 - Why do UFOs crash? 01:06:05 - Whitley Strieber & experiments on children 01:16:43 - Rogue government with alien tech 01:24:37 - Tic Tacs causing nuclear communications outage 01:32:04 - How would society react to alien disclosure? 01:39:33 - Collapse of intellectualism 01:49:39 - Skeptics 01:55:21 - Jake Barber 02:13:09 - Risk of summoning aliens 02:24:55 - Mike Masters' alien evolution theory 02:35:46 - String theory is a limited hangout 02:54:25 - Counter-Intel & the UFO community 03:03:31 - #1 scariest alien & UFO theory 03:06:08 - Jesse's UFO experience 03:18:57 - Censorship of alien content 03:23:30 - USAID funding UFO disinformation 03:26:29 - How the CIA made Google Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up Jesse Michaels? What's up, Danny Jones? Like I just said to you, bro, you're going to have to pull me back into the believer. Make me a believer again. Because the more shit I learn about UFOs, the more I am just out on this topic lately. That's understandable. And I'm not here to bring you back. I'm not an evangelist.

I do think... Damn it. I'm sorry. I do think if the question is, is the topic worthy of further investigation? And is there something very interesting at the bottom of all of this? You know, you get to the final room. Is there something interesting going on? My answer would be, I think, I think yes. But yeah, I don't want to evangelize. I think in many ways, interest in UFOs is maladaptive and a distraction for a lot of people and doesn't make sense. Yes, yes. There's a lot of shit you got to cut through, bro. Like not just the, if you want to talk about like sciop stuff, like sure, there's a lot of stuff you got to cut through with that.

But then there's a whole other layer of people monetizing this. There's a business, right? Yep. Like we're doing a podcast in a spaceship about UFOs because my audience loves UFOs and I'm going to make money talking about UFOs. Half the books on that, on that shelf are about fucking UFOs. So it's a huge business too. which muddies the water even more. Yeah, it totally muddies the water

and it's a weird dynamic. And I think when you have a topic that's kind of pointing at the sacred, you know, it might be the tip of the iceberg. It's not the rest of the iceberg. It's just an unidentified flying object is not necessarily what you're going for. I think a lot of people that are into it

are like ultimately meaning seekers and they want like kind of a... They want to understand the reality of religion. understand metaphysics. And so I think UFOs are just a foray. They're just one kind of route in. But I think combining that with money is a very weird thing. I mean, it's like sort of the modern modern Catholic indulgences or something. It doesn't really work. Right. Yeah, totally, man. And we, so we were just talking before we started rolling about that movie The Adjustment Bureau. and there's some crazy people,

like some deep, dark, secretive people in this whole UFO world that aren't public that, I guess we can talk about the guy, right? Like, he's fully... The reason I'm scared to talk about this guy is because my podcast is it with Chris Bledsoe completely got nuked off YouTube. Yeah, should we tell this story?

Because you told me some really interesting stuff on a phone call. I did? Yeah. What did I tell you? Well, you said that... You do you say, I don't care. Okay, cool.

You said that the views were like, you know, it was like doing 50K a day. Oh, yes. And then it cuts off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You speak to some rep at Google. And they're like, we don't know what the hell happened here. It doesn't make any sense given the click through rate average V duration, which should basically define the video's performance. He goes, the one other time I've seen this is with Jesse's David Grush video.

Exactly. Performance fell off a cliff. Yep. So. And he said that he said that my video with Bledsoe, in your video with Grush, neither of them broke any YouTube rules or had any internal red flags that he was able to see. Yep.

And he goes, whenever this happens, which has happened one other time recently with David Grush. Yep. It's basically the floor above me that I have no access to. Yep. Something above my head that I don't know what the hell's going on. So what the hell is going on? Why are they doing this?

Erasing podcasts with people who talk about getting abducted by aliens off of, the internet. I feel like they have way bigger fish to fry. You would think. I don't know. There's something very interesting about Chris Bloodso's story. It's like why is, you know, Jim Semivand is very high up at the CIA. Why is he showing up at Chris Bloodsos, you know, a place in Fayetteville, North Carolina when he's, you know, starts to just kind of attract UFOs. He talks to the lady or whatever. You know the whole story. He's definitely attracted the attention of some very interesting people. You know, we were just talking about, you know, Tim Taylor, Yes, that's the guy.

I would always mention pseudonymously. He was written about in this great book by Dana Pesulka, religious studies professor called American Cosmic. And then he was kind of doxed by Chris Blitzell on your show, actually. Right. Which I think I thought that that might have been the reason that that video got completely blasted off the face of YouTube because of him talking about him. Right?

Because if I'm that guy and I have all these connections that he allegedly has, I could probably make a call or send an email to somebody at YouTube being like, nuke this thing. Totally. Yeah, well, that's what, and Bloodso even says in the story that Tim Taylor gives him a whole brief about UFOs. And then he says, you can't send this to anybody. And then he, like, sends the email or something to his wife or like, I don't know, somebody very close and immediately gets a call from Tim being like. Knowing that he forwarded it. Yeah, like, you f*** up. Yeah. And so, you know, who knows if that's like a test and like, you know, they're sort of being sciop or, you know, I don't. I think even Bloodso thinks that, you know, maybe he was being messed with initially. when he sort of entered his life. And even when he was, I think he was giving him a tour of like Kennedy Space Center.

Oh, yeah. He said, he said when you walk through the security. Yeah. When you walk past the security tower, he goes, just play a song in your head. Yeah, so they can't access your thoughts. So they can't access your thoughts, right. Yeah. And I asked them like, what?

Yeah. I'm like, who's in there? Yeah. And he was very, he didn't know. He's like, mind readers. I don't know. I don't know if they're aliens or humans, but they read your minds. Yeah, yeah.

And then he also said some shit that I'm like, I don't even know if I want to say on camera, but he like... Say it, Danny. He told me some stuff. Okay. Essentially, I'll make it, I'll dumb it down. So it's not too technical. But he basically told me that this fella showed him a real life men and black neuralizer. No way.

That wipes your memory. No way. This is what he told me. How can you know if it's a neuralizer? We actually cut the segment out of the podcast because I was like, there's no way I'm putting this on the podcast. It was like a five. It was like a 10-minute chunk of that Bledsoe podcast where he explains everything about it, how it works, where they got it from. No way.

Yeah, bro. Why didn't they neuralize him after they described the whole neurolise it? That would seem like you would think they would want to do that, right? Yeah. But like that essentially is like one of the explanation for the missing time stuff. And he had another story about like missing time where they were like walking through a forest. Yep. I don't know for familiar with that one.

But like they were walking, him and Tim were walking through a forest with somebody like looking for something. And then all of a sudden that like they started over. Whoa. Like they almost like started back to where they were an hour ago with like like in an instant. Like almost it was like a loop. Like they looped through time or something. It's fascinating. I don't know.

Well, I just, you know, we were talking earlier about I did a piece on this guy, Thomas Townsend Brown. Yeah. Who I think it's just a fascinating character. One of the best documentaries I've ever seen. Thank you, man. It was incredible. Appreciate that. Yeah.

Yeah, well, he's amazing. He's, I think, like, a forgotten hero in American history. I think he made all sorts of breakthroughs in the world of gravity. But in general relativity, gravity and time are related. So the kind of subplot of his whole biography, it's a great biography called The Man Who Master Gravity by a guy named Paul Shatskin. I recommend you all read it. The subplot is that he's obsessed with time travel.

He talks about time travel constantly with his wife, Josephine, his daughter, Linda. And here's where it gets really weird. uh apparently tim taylor told chris bledso that he was part of a secret time travel group in nassau in the bahamas and the president of that group was thomas towns and brown now i would think that was totally i would dismiss that out of hand i would be like that's you know that's sort of you know madness but i know from my own research independent research on thomas towns and brown he spent a ton of time in nassau in the bahamas and he was just extremely interested in time travel and it was he was spending a lot of time with this guy William Stevenson, who was James Bond's super spy.

Or sorry, he was the inspiration for James Bond. He was Winston Churchill's super spy. But he was, you know, Ian Fleming's inspiration for James Bond. He's just like fascinating, kind of, he's, you know, coordinating a lot with Wild Bill Donovan, early OSS, or late OSS, you know, early CIA, involved in the formation of the CIA, was working out of the Rockefeller Center in New York and kind of calling a lot of interesting shots as, you know, almost part of like a a shadow government, if you will. So he's close with Thomas Townsend Brown. They're in the Bahamas a lot.

And then you have, you know, Ryan Bledsoe saying that Tim Taylor told his father that he's part of the secret time travel group with Thomas Townsend Brown. Just very, very interesting. And then, and then you, you know, we were talking about this before the show. You said, you know, that Tim Taylor told Chris Bledsoe that the Adjustment Bureau was like, you know, his life or whatever. And that's all about like changing one little variable. Like it's like if I were to freeze this room and like, I don't know, move your mic like a little bit.

Right. And you get this butterfly effect style multiplicative effect down the line or whatever of like changing timelines. It's madness. It's kind of crazy. It's complete fucking madness. Yeah. Science fiction. It is.

It's sci-fi. And I'm not proposing that that's a real thing. But it is fascinating. That there are some connections there. And then the final thing, the final connection I made is Townsend Brown. daughter is an amazing woman. She was in the documentary, right? She was in the documentary on the phone call, and her name's Linda Brown, but it was Linda Leach

for a while. And she has an Amazon review on Tim Taylor's biography. Tim Taylor's biography is called Launch Fever. And I think he wrote 2003, 2004. And in 2012 or 13 or 14, like early, well before Diana Posulka, even pseudonymously, about Tim Taylor under the pseudonym Tyler in American Cosmic in 2018, Linda Leach is writing a review on launch fever, saying this is, you know,

wonderful homage to, you know, the space program or whatever. So clearly there's a connection between Townsend Brown and Tim Taylor, which is, that's, it's pretty interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So you have this mid-century inventor who I think, I mean, at the very late, Like, we have an FBI file on Thomas Townsend Brown saying he was the lead radar scientist in the entire Navy. Like, this guy's a real guy.

You can say he didn't crack anti-gravity. That's fine. I'm, like, totally open to that. Like, you have to think probabilistically around that. I have a lot of fucking evidence that he did. You can, but say he didn't do that or whatever. He's like a very real guy, and he's talking about time travel constantly. And then there's this really interesting connection with a modern NASA mission controller.

I don't know. I don't understand it. Yeah. Going to the like the adjustment bureau comment that he made, Mm-hmm. Do you think that there's a thing that happens to people? And I wouldn't know because I don't have the personal experience. But do you think it's possible there's something that happens to somebody or certain individuals when they have tons of super, super top secret information that they have and nobody else has? where they sort of feel like

their life is, for lack of a better term, they're living the Da Vinci Code. And they sort of like fall into that and they sort of like look through their entire life through that lens. Right. Like I am living.

I am living this movie or like I am this superhero character because I hold these secrets that like literally would change the power balance of the world if I let them out. Yeah. I wonder what that does to your brain. You know what I mean? I do wonder that as well.

And then I wonder how much of it is like human clearance systems versus like, have you ever experienced synchronicities in your life? Oh, all the time. All the time. All the time. Like really cool, interesting, fun way. So maybe there are people that are more tapped into that in sort of a weird way. Well, that's what this guy tries to do, right?

He's trying to tap into this other thing. He's trying to get these downloads that she's in her new book, she talks about. about like all these Diana Pesolka in her new I forget the name of her new book she taught in that one she talks about encounters yeah that's great awesome book um

shout out Diana Pesola shout out to Diana um all these protocols that he goes through every day by not drinking coffee yeah and like going outside getting sunlight and all this stuff in the morning and like trying to download some sort of cosmic shit so we can make more patents yeah it sounds so woooo

And wild. And like, you know, I don't know what to say about it. I think that's more how thinking works than the average person realize it. You know, I'm a big fan of the transmission theory of consciousness. I don't, when you're daydreaming, you're not actively producing those thoughts, right? It's like you're like, you're like a receptacle for the thoughts. And so I think it's just like, it's an important kind of epistemological question is, are we locally producing the content in our minds or are we somehow downloading them from elsewhere? Yeah, sure. I think that is. probably going to be proven by some sort of, you know, scientific model of the future. Right now, electromagnetism, as we know it, decays and attenuates over space time, so we don't have a good model for, like, how that transmission might occur, you know, like neutrino information transfer. But increasingly in vogue is this extended electrodynamics model, which, you know, NASA and not the DOE, the National Science Foundation and NASA just launched this podcast and, like, how put up off and all these interesting like kind of figures in UFO world, but also with some pretty

impressive bonafides just in science as well. You got a former skunk works guy, you know, some Navy scientists. All righty, fellas, it's time to talk about personal grooming, which is not just about looking good, it's about feeling good. Whether it's gearing up for a meeting, getting ready to go on a date, or just preparing for the day, the right tools make all the difference. Take care of your skin and skip the cuts and irritation. Meet the beard and balls bundle from Manscape. You're all-in-one grooming solution to keep you polished from head to toe, or more precisely, from beard to balls. And let's be real.

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face to balls. Again, visit manscaped.com and use the code Danny Jones to get 20% off plus free shipping. And thank you, Manscaped, for sponsoring the show. And they're all speaking about extended electrododynamics. And this is basically a model that involves a scalar field. So unlike Like classical electrodynamics, you don't get the attenuation over space time. So you can have, basically in classical electrodynamics, you just have one electromagnetic wave, a transverse herzene wave. So you have a magnetic field, an electric field, and wave propagation, and all three are perpendicular to one another.

And so because of that, you get this attenuation, you get electrons pairing off, you know, and, you get this decay function on the signal. But in the scalar field, you can get like scalar longitudinal waves. You get all these interesting wave types and you don't get the same decay. And so maybe we are downloading thoughts via one of these sort of scalar field waves. That would just be one thought experiment. I don't know. Right.

But I do think something like that will get proven out. Just given the phenomenology of thought or invention where like a wheel pops up in Africa at the same time as South America. Yes. You look at the phenomenology of science. It looks way more like revelation than it does like. Quantum mechanics or something. It looks like something's popping into the person's head every single time, whether it's Dirac staring at the fire at Cambridge, coming up at the Dirac equation, or Einstein at his desk as a patent clerk.

Like, it literally, the exception to the rule is like, I just finished the equation on the whiteboard. No, you're like in the shower or you're like, there's so many examples. So, yeah, I think, you know, Heisenberg at Helgo Land, you know, making all these downloads about, you know, how electrons make quantum leaps and. you know, electron cloud. Like, it's just, it's sort of constant. So Tim Taylor's saying that, it's like, yeah, I think that's real. But then, and then I don't know. It's hard to sift through some of the other quackiness.

I'm not, I don't want to endorse any of the stuff that he says is definitively real. But it's interesting. He seems like the most, I mean, it's because he's so elusive, I think is making, makes him so interesting. Yes. You know, especially the way she talks about some of the stuff that he was involved with, like, like, you've met the dude, right? Yeah. I had, I had like a 20 minute call with him. Really?

Yeah. How did that come about? I can't say because I will say anything on any podcast, I'll always be public, but I want to protect. Sources? Yeah, sources, exactly. I just don't want to like burn relationships. Sure.

Can you tell what you talked about him with, what you talked about with him? Yeah. The impetus on my end. So I always, I invest in the venture capital. Oh, Steven, did you leave your phone out? We got to put our phones out there. Palantir in the fucking building, bro. We can't let all our info get sucked out of here, dude.

He's a palantir honey trap. Jesse Michaels. I am not. I am not. Dude, you're furthering the internet bullshit daddy. Come on, man. Just kidding.

Just kidding. But no, you, what you talked about on Julian Dory's podcast, a great podcast. You guys went into like your whole background into investing and how you, you invest, basically you invest Peter Thiel's money. Exactly.

Yeah. Love Julian. Great guy. And, um, yeah. So I worked at the family office for a long amount of time. And even now, I still have a contract with them and I do investing. But I'm mainly focused on the show. It's like 90, 95% show at this point.

But yeah, so one of the companies that I was invested in was a rocket company. And they were struggling. Rocket tree is incredibly hard. It's got a very high failure rate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's absurd. I mean, the amount of, you're talking about like thousands of sub components and like, you know, one thing fails and get this chain reaction. The whole thing screws up.

So we had had, you know, a couple of failures. And I always try to keep my, you know, investment stuff and, you know, the quacky stuff that I'm into. I always try to keep those separate for many reasons. But I'm kind of scraping the bottom of the barrel as far as, you know, it's like, oh, we're struggling to get off the ground. And I know a startup rocket company? Yeah, it's a startup rocket company. Yeah, yeah. And so I know about, you know, Tim Taylor being this NASA mission controller.

He uses consciousness protocols to get rockets off the ground. And I also know about the history of rocketry where it's like Jack Parsons, the founder of JPL. And basically the American rocket program or Chikovsky, the equivalent in Russia or Warner Von Braun. Like all of these guys believed in versions of this. So I'm scraping the bottom of the barrel. Yeah, that's so crazy. Yeah, basically, like, in my, you know, putting my investment hat on, I'm like, I'm a materialist reductionist. Like, I don't want to bring the woo-woo stuff in. But again, it's, you know, I'm like, if I have access to this guy, I got to, you know, find a way to meet him, talk to him. Pretend I'm not interested in UFOs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's genius. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, I actually, that was literally the impetus, actually, was like helping on the rocket stuff. So it actually wasn't as much like the UFO thing. Right.

And so, yeah, we spoke. And he said some interesting stuff. He was like, you know, most of it was actually kind of very like kind of platitudes around the American cosmic style stuff. Like, you know, use these protocols and tap in and like, don't use your phone. I was like, I already read that in the book that Basolka, you know, published. But thank you. And then he was also like, look, if you want the rocket to work, you know, maybe you have to get aligned with what they want. And I was like, they?

Yeah, like the non-human intelligence. I said this to you knowing that you weren't, you didn't bring, you didn't bring the first. He brought it up first? No, I brought it. Oh, oh, I didn't bring, didn't bring up non-human intelligence first. He was the one to bring up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know, I just asked questions about rocket. Bless you. Bless you. Bless you. Bless you. Bless you. I just, I was just asking questions about the rocket and getting it to work. Yeah.

Yeah. And so did you ask? Did you follow up on that when he was like they? Did you ask who they were? I don't remember. exactly, I mean, I'm sure I did. And I'm sure. I was sure that when he said they, he was talking about non-human intelligence, either due to a follow-up question that I asked or something he made that

kind of clear. So, yeah. I don't know what to make of this stuff, man. I mean, he even said, like, apparently, like, he knows Elon, right? He has to know Elon. He works for Elon and at SpaceX and, like, watches the rockets and supposedly is part of NRO where they have to, like, watch everything that happens around the rocket with the satellites and the drones or whatever. whatever. I think so. I don't know. You know, I've heard that and Pesolosolk has tweeted that. But yeah, I think he does work occasionally with Elon. I know he works on some, I think,

you know, some serious launches. He also works at aerospace corporation, which is a very interesting company. They're sort of like... Remind me what that one is? They're like a, I think they're kind of like a think tank. They have like 5,000 employees split between Virginia and, you know, Fairfax area. And, uh... Segundo and I think that yeah they show up in interesting places around the UFO question for sure Aerospace Corporation yep yeah yeah I don't know like my world got turned upside down when when I which I talk about it at nauseam on the show but like when Bledsoe came in here and talked about this stuff and then after recently after that I became aware of the Mirageman documentary yeah

which flipped my world upside down again yeah yeah yeah yeah and I I've been looking at this whole topic through that lens ever since then. Sure. And it really makes a ton of sense. Yep. Well, yeah. I mean, that's an example of like, should we like talk about. So this guy Paul Benowitz is outside Crittland Air Force Base.

He sees this like vertical takeoff and landing occur of probably some exotic, you know, craft or whatever, which to me doesn't mean look away. It's like, what is that? What's the initial thing you saw? And then Rick Doty, who's an Air Force Office of Special Investigation's officer, enters into a his life and kind of drives him crazy. And he ends up committing suicide. He's driven in a psychiatric hospitalization. He's told that he's communicating with aliens via these signals.

In essays across the street beaming shit into his house, telling him they're aliens that are like running out of gas on their planet and they're on their way here. Yep. Yep. Yeah. So pretty nuts. So after watching the documentary and learning the story, this guy, Paul Benowitz,

and seeing how this world really works behind the scene. Like I have to just assume that most of this stuff that is going on is just super secret military technology and there's a huge Apparadus and bureaucracy of people behind the scenes that are just involved in Making information murkier right and like what they were doing with Paul if I understand it correctly was they were because he was in the UFO field It was part of Mufon and all this stuff so they were trying to use him as a conduit of disinfo to poison the well Yeah and tried and because they knew there was also Russian spies in the UFO community out west. So they thought, okay, if we can just throw a couple curveballs through Paul Benowitz, it'll throw off the Russians, and they won't know what we

really have going on. So now I look at people like in the media today, like, and I don't, you're going to have to explain this up to me better, but like people like crush, people like all these whistleblowers. Yeah. People like, uh, Bledsoe, like, okay, is he Paul Benowitz? Is he a Paul Benowitz? Is he a Paul Benowitz? Sure. And the thing with Bledso is like, there's like, CIA people, NSA people, NRO people, like the guy that he talked about that mapped the moon for the Apollo missions was like visiting him and like befriending him

and telling him all this secret stuff. And then like, God, dude, it's just, it's too much. Yeah, it's extremely confusing. I mean, here's what I would say, that seems like a massive waste of resource. Like, to what end? Right. Why are you getting all these kind of super high up guys?

NASA CIA to visit this guy. Driving to North Carolina from the middle of Florida. So, but that points to there being some real, like, proto-architecture underneath. Like, there's a different, you can try to, you can attempt to manipulate or, like, shade a thing differently. And, by the way, I'm not saying, I have no evidence that this at all happened. Right. And, for example, Bledso's case.

Sure. And he seems like a really earnest good guy to me. And I'm hopefully can go. He has been talking about maybe. Very sweet. Sweet guy, yeah, yeah. As his daughter, she was, she was in here with him when he came in. Awesome.

Yeah, their whole family seems really cool. But I think you can have an experience and you can shade that experience differently versus like you didn't experience anything to begin with. Because it's like, why are you spending all this like manpower and resources? You know, like it's like this huge waste of resources otherwise. And so if it's all passage material or all some honey, trap or like I just that feels like a little crazy to me and then you have all this you have like so you have to think probabilistically with all this stuff sure so like there's the stuff where like the

adjustment period like the crazy stuff like to me I hold that extremely loosely I catalog it as very low probability and I'll look for corroboration in the future for it but like if you're like do you believe that's definitely a thing I know I don't have no idea right right but then you have things like you have this book called UFOs and nukes by a guy named Robert Hastings and he documented we've talked about this. He documents 167 Q cleared ICBM security personnel, radar operators, guys that work- The most psychologically sound people in the military, right? They're on the PRP program, the personal reliability program where they have to report if they're taking ibuprofen or Tylenol. They inherently have to be the paradigm of a sound mind because you are guarding

the crown jewels. Like you would never let, you know, crazy person next to a nuke, right? And in certain cases they have their finger on the button. And so all these guys see tick-tacks, saucers, orbs. Often they're messing with comms links, shutting down the nukes, rendering them inoperable in the case of, you know, Malmstrom, 67, Robert Salas, and, you know, 64, Vandenberg. You have a nuke wrapping around an Atlas 5 dummy missile and taking it out of the sky. And then you have Air Force Office of Special Investigations people like Rick Doty. In fact, Rick Doty is literally one of these people who shows up with this guy, Mario Woods at Ellsworth Air Force Base in 1977, and swearing them to secrecy and saying, you know, never talk about this again and,

and demoting them in cases where they do come out when they speak to Robert Hastings. Robert Hastings getting threatening phone calls. And so to me, if you were to, you know, like, you have to think about everything as like a database. And it's like, okay, there's one thing if you have, like, the, you know, National UFO Reporting Center or Mufon, it's another thing if you have this, database, which I would call UFOs and nukes, of these inherently very credible people coming forward saying they've seen things. Yes. And then, did you know sleeping less than six hours per night nearly doubles your risk of death? Poor sleep is also linked to obesity, heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, depression, and weekend immune system. I've struggled with sleep for a while,

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You're like, okay, maybe. But even then, your null hypothesis gets pretty fantastical and weird if that's what you're saying. But then you look at Fukushima, Lino, which is a town right next to Fukushima, next to the prefecture, where they have their civilian energy, nuclear energy grid. And they've had it there since the 70s. they're famous for their nuclear spill in 2011. Right. And in the 90s, they built a museum dedicated to UFOs.

And Vice did a documentary about how obsessed the townspeople are with UFOs. And it's probably due to the nuclear energy presence. And you have a famous case in Baroloche, Argentina, where they have their civilian nuclear grid, where, you know, a commercial pilot sees a UFO. And you have stories around Chernobyl. And so this nuclear connection. is extremely important. Then you hear about UFOs basically being bounded up

within nuclear secrecy and Battelle Memorial Institute being very big part of UFO research. You look at the special definition of nuclear material under the Atomic Energy Commission, which was in 1954. And it's basically any material with emitting any sort of radiation. So alpha, beta, game, or anything, is born secret and it's restricted data, meaning that you don't even have to fall under the direct

clearances of government, if you are a private aerospace corporation and you pick this stuff up, it is restricted for you too. So it's like born classified. So you have all this evidence that there's this kind of like DOE atomic research UFO thing that's been going on for for very long time. And I think that's where you have to start this coherent picture. And then yeah, there's sciops, there's weird shit. But I think what people don't understand is that if there are sciops around a thing, it means the thing is more likely to be real. How many, how many Bigfoot Sciops do you know? None. Yeah, because nobody would fucking believe it. Right. Sciops are 95% true and 5% false and the 5% that's false.

Matters a ton because it throws you entirely off the trail. It's 95% true? Yes. It's 95% false? Yes. Oh, really? That's what people don't understand about sciops. They think it was the opposite. Sure. They think that it's 95% false, but you dismiss it out of hand if it was 95% false you'd be like oh it's Bigfoot fuck them I don't I'm not gonna believe that UFOs are standard deviations more charismatic than any other if it's the Psiop well big foot's big foot's more more believable than a fucking alien coming here from another universe right it's a hominid there's a big hominid right right right which is why and I actually I'm I'm more in the like Jacques

Velaide diana Pesalka line of thinking where I don't think you know little green men from Zeta reticuli is the answer to like what we're seeing in in the airspace. Shout out to Mike Masters. Shout to Mike Masters. Yeah, I love Mike Madden. And he does some really important work on. My favorite.

He's amazing. Yeah. And he's great because he's thinking about this stuff inductively. Most people don't realize they're bringing priors into thinking about UFOs that deal with movies they've seen. Exactly. And the zeitgeist and culture. And so they're not looking at the phenomenon ground up first principles. And he is.

And that's why Mike Masters is amazing. and people should definitely follow him. But that's what people don't. So the sci-op, I think is a really important point. If there are siops around a thing, it's more likely to be real. And then if UFOs are real, there are going to be siops around it, obviously. If you have this core important truth, there are going to be siops around it. If you're talking about the nature of reality, obviously, but it's ephemeral and hard to detect,

and it's like this thing that happens only to certain people. Of course you're going to co-op that, manipulate it for narratives. And you're going to have all these competing factions trying to overlay their narratives on top of the thing. So these things are, sciop or real is positive sum. It's not zero sum. The fact that it's real means there's going to be a sciop. The fact that there's a sciop probably means there's an element of reality too. Why would they invest manpower into it?

Why would they invest so much manpower at the highest levels? Right. And so that's, I think people don't get that and they snap it to grid. They're like, this is a sciop or this is real. And it's like, there are siops and it's real. It's a same. And that makes it really interesting. Yes. And worthy of investigation, everybody should think for themselves and you should distrust anybody who's saying it's definitely this. Mm-hmm. That's why the the Bob Lazar story is so interesting to me and it stays interesting because like the more we learn

about the more we learn about the psychological warfare and the counterintelligence stuff like in this current UFO state we're in, the more light it shines on the Bob Lazar story in what was it,

1980 or something, 1990? 80, what was it? 87. 87. Yep. So like, apparently he was the guy

who first came to Area 50, blew the whistle on area 51. But then I think this was all part of your documentary. Was this a part of your Townsend Brown documentary? It was. Yeah, yeah. So, like, I think one of the questions you asked in the Townsend Brown document, which was brilliant, was why would the CIA let a guy come in who has this crazy history?

Yep. Right? He, I think, and another thing that happened was I think he, like, recently gotten a divorce with his previous wife, who then, like, killed herself. I didn't know that. She, she, like, went in her car in her garage and let her car run until, like, she suffocated. This was like a week after they got a divorce. Oh, no.

I think Bob also owned a strip club in Vegas. Yeah, I know that. Yeah, yeah, he did. And then what were the- I think a brothel, not just- Oh, it was a brothel? Yeah, yeah, you owned a brothel. So the CIA is going to go out and find it. And to think they're not going to do a background check and find that kind of stuff,

if it's the CIA at their most top-secret facility in the mayor. Well, you've seen Oppenheimer, right? Yeah. So you remember that, Matt Damon's character, Leslie Groves, who's running basically the entire Manhattan Project from like a national security standpoint. And he says, I didn't hire Oppenheimer in spite of his socialist sympathies. I hired him because of them. And so you hire people when it comes to some of these more secret programs.

Sometimes if they do have compromise on them because they're more easily controllable. So that wouldn't necessarily cut again. against the whole Bobbos are story. That's an argument for them hiring him. Oh, okay. But. And discrediting him if he ever decides to spill the beans. Yeah.

And there's even a, so what I was saying in that documentary is John Lear is a CIA cargo pilot, cargo jet pilot or whatever. Right. And the son of Bill Lear who created the first, you know, business, basically private jet in the, in the U.S. who's known as the autopilot wizard and actually worked with Thomas Townsend Brown. It comes from this aerospace, like, dynasty. Right. And he, yeah, affiliated with the CIA and says he disaffiliated in 83, but definitely was still flying cargo jets for them, like, into the mid-80s at least.

So my question is, like, you know, we kind of know that if there is a UFO program, it's being run partially by the CIA. And the CIA has a part in it. And so if you're the CIA, why do you continue, unless you're extremely dysfunctional and not coordinating, Why do you continue to pay this guy, you know, is flying cargo jets for you if he's leaking your most vital important secrets? Because John Lear put all of the files around Bob Lazar on George Nap's desk. He broke the story. So why would you pay a guy who's leaking your, you know, your crown jewel secrets? So that's one question.

And then John Lear also had a UFO blog before, and was friends with Bob Lazar. And there's some story that Bob Lazar says all this UFO stuff's crazy and wacky and bullshit before he gets hired by Area 51 and S4. But the question stands, why would you hire Bob Lazar to your top secret UFO reverse engineering program if your good friend or his good friend, John Lear, was a babbling UFO nut who has a UFO blog? Like you'd obviously find that in a background check, right? Yeah.

So like, there's a lot to me that points. to the CIA wanting the Bob Lazar story out. Again, that doesn't mean the details of the Bob Lazar story are not incredibly interesting. And maybe it's 95% true and 5% false. And maybe this Billy Myers sports model that he worked on was real. I don't know. Maybe Gravity A and Gravity B are high-level frameworks that if you are working on a Secret UFO program, you need some initiate STEM student to start to develop.

an interest in but you need to protect this from getting into adversary hands so you put it out through these kind of this quacky person who is discreditable in bob lazar and so it's kind of this limited hangout of a person where you can always retract it you can always point to you know say you faked his MIT educational credentials yeah and you could say you'd say all this stuff about bobby you say the the the brothel thing but maybe there are elements of it that you know are very real so i think it's this incredibly intriguing story. And what I want to be clear about is I think like the Corbell and George Knap reporting on it are awesome. Like I think it's we should be looking into this stuff. But to me, if you're not thinking about it through a meta lens of like the CIA probably wanted

elements of this out, I think you're losing the plot. You know, I think you're going to fall for you can't take the thing at face value. You need to understand that it's being pushed for some reason. And I think there's even a John Lear interview where I believe he says a guy named. I think it was like an Admiral McClellan. He says that this guy who was part of like legacy UFO efforts told him that he needed to leak the Lazar story because he knew that it was discreditable, but that it was mostly true, but also discreditable.

And so there's literally a Lear interview because Lear was clearly kind of unhinged and a little, you know, crazy himself, where he's just saying what I'm telling you now, which is that the Lazar story, again, there could be elements of truth, but it was put out because it was discreditable. And I think that's the way a lot of this stuff works. But what was the benefit of putting it out?

Was it to recruit new talent? Oh, tons. Yeah. So it's like if you want to throw the adversary off the trail or like keep things fundamentally protected, but have initiates, you know, develop intrigue and want to be recruited or whatever, like it's like the perfect way to do it. Yeah. So it's like tech protection, it's adversary signaling, it's recruitment.

it's increasing the surface area. It's if you expect a leak in the future, you can manage that leak because you're like conditioning people and like softening the blow for something you expect to leak in the future anyways. There's so many reasons to get in front of and do something like that.

And Ben Rich, who was, you know, president of Lockheed Skunk Works, their most secretive, you know, advanced aerospace aircraft division at the time, responsible for, you know, the SR 71 and, you know, you two. he was complaining at the time how he was basically saying like you know i have to spend tons and tons of money on tech protection because the f-117a which was there for a stealth fighter had just

crashed in baker's field in 1986 lear actually established credibility with k lAS with george knaps you know news station by giving them information on that f-117a oh wow yeah so there's some interesting ties there the the final thing is john lear and jim goodall his buddy had been camping outside of Area 51 for the better part of a decade, taking pictures of all these advanced recon stealth craft. And so the security knew him. They all knew who he was. So it's like, if he's leaking stuff, it's probably for a reason.

And so I think, you know, people like Ben Rich were smart, really smart. Ben Rich used to call UFO's unfunded opportunities. And I think, you know, he was kind of using John Lear to those ends, if that makes sense. Again, I don't know if you have to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say that we're not, you know, reverse engineering UFOs and sort of, you know, secret compartments of the government. But that's the way you, I think you need that meta lens to look at it through, if that makes sense. And on my list, on my top of my to-do list is read the book that Jacques Follet wrote about this stuff where he talks about Bob

Lazzar drinking something weird or something like that. Yeah, messengers of deception. Jacques Ville. Jacques Ville is always, I've had a bunch of conversation. I love that guy. French godfather of UFOs. Right. And he's always thought Bob Lazar was like just completely full of shit, which I think there are more elements of truth to it. And there's actually a great movie coming out about Bob Lazar by my buddy Luigi, and it's called Project Gravatar.

And I do think it's actually going to corroborate that Lazar probably was at Area 51. Really? Yeah. He's working on it with Lazar? He's working on it with Lazare. Yeah, it's going to be epic. It's going to be really awesome. But yeah, so in Messengers of Deception, Jacques Valet says, you know, and what about the liquid that Bob Lazar said he was, you know, meant to drink or whatever?

And the memory lapses that it caused. And immediately my mind goes to MK Ultra, and I'm like, you know, and Lazar admits that. And I think he's admitted it to Luigi. And he'll talk about this, that the fact that they, like, made him drink a weird liquid and he'll forget certain things. Yeah. Something kind of, you know, weird going on there. I don't know. I don't know what it is.

A sci-op wrapped in a mystery, wrapped in another sci-up, wrapped in some sort of strategic deception. I love what Annie Jacobson says in her book about when they're first flying, the first jet planes out of Air 51. CIA pilots had to bring gorilla masks in the cockpit. Oh, no. Because in the CIA pilots, when they were flying those first jet planes, in case they came in visual distance of a civilian airplane,

they had to put on the gorilla masks. No way. How crazy is that? That's crazy. That's my favorite one. Oh, that's so fast. Is that an area 51? That's an area 51.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you spent a lot of time with Jacques Filet, right? You guys are, did you live, you live close to him? No, no. You used to live closer to L.A., right? Yeah, I lived in L.A. for most of my life. And, no, I just, whenever we're in the same city, I tried to hit him up and visit him, and he's amazing. He's just a very, very deep thinker.

And there are clearly a lot of layers to his under. understanding of the UFO. A lot of layers. The most interesting thing to me, and I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this, was in Diana's book. She talks about him being obsessed with angels and demons. Yes. And this medieval spiritual stuff, right?

Oh, yeah. And she says that he gave her a book about the devil with 666 pages. And he said to her, if you want to understand this stuff, read the book about the devil. what the hell I don't know what to make of that I don't think Diana did either when I asked her I'm like did you read the book she goes no can't find it

you lost it no he didn't give it to her he just like showed her the book oh okay okay okay got it got it got it yeah I don't know man I mean I will say what you know the concept of Lindy

so it's this idea that the current age of something should define its expected survival in the future. So really old things are very durable and are probably more true or right or like, you know, yeah, just valid. So like the Bible, very Lindy, Plato, very Lindy, you know, modern architecture or, you know, I don't know, the museum of ice cream, not Lindy, you know, like. Right. And so, okay. I would say that really applies to the UFO question. Whatever we are seeing now is probably what we've historically seen forever. And that's what Jacques

Valet's book, Passport to Magonia touches on. It's like, you know, Celtic medieval, you know, fairies and leprechauns and angels and demons and, you know, passport to Magonia is, it's based on the denizens of Magonia and medieval France. It's probably what we're seeing today. And they almost pattern match one to one in terms of, you know, the actual story. It's like somebody comes down. There's missing time involved. There's sometimes implants and physical marks. There's healings, but people also freak out. And sometimes they get sick afterward. It's, uh, it's, It's just very common. And so I think when you get into the religious stuff, a modern scientist would say, oh, that's crazy or whatever.

But if you treat that as real phenomenology in the past, if you treat, you know, like Diana Posulka has in her book, St. Francis of Assisi, you know, experience on Mount Laverne in 13th century Italy. If you treat that as a historical artifact, which I think you should, then I think a lot of these things were just UFOs. Now, where it gets weird is like, then you say, oh, UFOs are just angels and demons. many people say that and then you just you give them one more question you say Tucker Carlson says that more than anybody and and you know I'm a fan of Tucker's but like then you ask any ask Tucker ask anybody then you say what's an angel what's a demon they'll have no idea they're like I don't know what are you talking about you know and so yeah yeah there you go yeah that's that's what I'll say by the way love that fucking podcast you did with with Alex Jones oh thank you man oh thank you

amazing one of your original ones one of the OG yeah yeah he he's hilarious man I love Alex Jones. He's so funny. Dude, that was that was pure entertainment. It was so fun. Painting rocks. Painting rocks with Alex Jones. Well, we did this thing in Austin and like at like Info Wars HQ and he had COVID and he gave me COVID. What? Yeah, so I share some genetics with. Oh my God. And it was just we I don't know it was fun. We shot guns and stuff, but the vibe was like a little off and then my friend Reva. She was like in LA at the time and he was coming into LA and she was like, we got to just make it gonzo weird and funny. And we got to paint rock.

She bought all these board games and stuff. And it was just. Genius. Lighten the mood. It was awesome. It was so funny. Yep. There it is.

What is the title of it? Isn't it like painting rocks with Alex Jones? Yeah. Getting drunk and painting rocks. Getting drunk and painting rocks. And he just said the most. That's such an OG vice title. Yeah.

It felt like very vice. It felt like just. I feel like your stuff is very vice too. Like you have a lot of episodes like that too. But yeah, he's just like, oh man, he's such, he's so fun to spend time. He's spent. Oh, he looks so much. He looks like he would be such fun to hang out with.

He's so fun. He spent that whole day at my house and I gave him all these books and it was just such a good, fun vibe. What were you guys drinking? I think tequila. Tequila? Yeah, yeah. And he went, he was going. He's, he go, yeah, I know what he's saying right now.

He goes. this is so weird he goes I don't have a sexual desire for my mother but when I look at her what when I look at her

you know she's so beautiful and then I'll be like Alex you are crazy but in the best way he is he is such a smart dude he's actually extremely smart he's such a smart dude

but like I like he the thing about Alex Jones a lot of people don't realize is that he throws so many so much shit at the wall. There's the whole, there's the, there's the meme, right?

Like, Alex Jones always, like, he gets stuff right over time. Yeah. He's like, the difference between conspiracy theory and the truth is six months. You know, Alex Jones was right again. Yep. But, like, if you saw the volume of shit that he says, you would realize how much he actually doesn't get right. He does get a ton of shit right.

There's so much. It's survivorship bias, for sure. He's constantly just throwing shit out there, right? Of course he's going to predict something right. Yeah. You know, the 9-11 stuff is crazy how he predict, like, literally, called out that al Qaeda was going to fly planes in the tower on air it goes on Osama specifically it's wild that is fucking it's why i think he's like i think he's tapped in it goes back to our

conversation on consciousness i feel like he's like a a bit of a profit he's like one of these people it's like a generically magnified receptor and like i think he's like an antenna he's like an antenna and a lot of bad shit glombs on to him yeah he's like Kanye too where it's like so much bad stuff glombs on to Kanye and then so much good too. And like I think that's where people like don't understand somebody like him. He's he can be so wildly wrong when he's wrong. Yeah. But when he's right, it's like nobody else was right. Like it's like a download that he got that was so prophetic. Yeah. So like ahead of his time, it's really amazing. Yeah. And it's almost like you have to, you have to be able to get rid of that filter. Yeah. For that stuff to happen. Because if you have that

filter and you're like constantly like sitting and mulling on things before you talk about, them or you claim them, whatever it is. It's like automatically that is, that is like you're not going to have that superpower. But if you don't have the filter built in at all, and you're just constantly just coming in and it's going out, it's flowing through you. Then it's like you're more tapped in somehow. And I's, yeah, it's totally. It's definitely you can see that with conchial.

Yeah. It's like, it's like automatic writing where like you like, you get the first like page you write is like contrives. It's coming from your like prefrontal cortex, like this intellectual thing. And then boom, you get into the flow. when you're on autopilot and something's coming through you and the muses, you're tapping in the muses. Yes. And yeah, I agree. You can't have the filter and I think, and that's why I get so much wrong too.

That's the double-edged sword that you have to be okay with. You have to be okay with it and you have to be discerning. It's condescending to an audience to say, I'm going to A-Prior where I conceal you from this entire thing instead of, I'm going to let you think for yourself. And there's a lot that this guy says is completely quacky and wrong. And there's a lot that's super right. But we're not going to like, you're not going to be like bubble boy and bubble girl.

They, you know, like, like, like, like, like, a siphon you off from like this like, you know, really important, you know, possible, you know, slivers of information that are really important. Yeah. Golden nuggets. Yeah, totally. Where were we going before we start talking about? Oh, no. How did we get to Alex? Oh, demons.

I said Hillary, Hillary Clinton. Yeah, yeah. Oh, you're talking about Jacques Valet saying that this fall part of it. I mean, if you get into like, there's like a Gnostic through line in thinking about UFOs. So like you're familiar with Gnosticism. Yeah, there you're. Yes, Gnosticism. Yeah, yeah, I'm familiar with that.

So like, you know, the idea that these are like arcani, you know, protectors or tricksters, protectors of the material world. But that, you know, there's like a, you know, there's like a demiurge that, you know, runs the material world and that's like a lower god. And then there's like a higher god. And this is not something I would. fully subscribed to. I think they're too anti, I think the material world's very special and we can learn all these amazing things from it. I also think there's higher stuff going on. Yeah.

So I'd say I'm more like, I don't know, like a neoplatonist or something, but there's definitely some gnaustic thought and through lines in this world. And like, I think that is one lens you can overlay the whole UFO question with. But as to, you know, I don't know. Yeah, he's super into fallen angels and he's interested in demons. And I don't, I can't quite, you know, explain that. Well, the demon thing is interesting when you look at the Virginia Brazil case. Yeah. The thing that smelled like sulfur. And they call it, the three women, they go, it's like, what, it's like a demon?

Yeah. Smelled like a demon, had horns and eyes like a demon. Uh-huh. And killed a guy. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah, no, some of these things, pattern, or even the rumors of Roswell, there's a CIA liaison named Chase Brandon, who wrote a book called Crypto's Conundrum, and the alien being that comes out of Roswell. And I think there's some true stuff that comes out of that book. Do you think we really have a being that came out of Roswell?

Again, I would say high probability that Roswell happened, something, there was a crash there, and then lower probability that there was a being. I don't know what, you know, maybe 50-ish percent, but at decently high. There's so many townspeople at Roswell are like something happened to your beings came out. Edgar Mitchell, who I know this is going to kind of muddy the waters because he was, you know, an Apollo 14 astronaut who then got really interested in consciousness and aliens you know his trip on the way back to the moon he almost this conversion experience he was from roswell and it's like an open secret there that something happened um and then the beings i would rank

as lower probability than like the memory medal that jesse marcell this air force flight surgeon i think definitely collected and i think it did make it to right right airfield the trit trintium trinium what is the word for that metal the trit triium or night Tritium? No, not tritium. It was like, it was like, there was a crazy metal that there was a name for it where it would bend and go back to its original shape. Oh, you're talking about the titanium nickel alloy. So there's a contract between Wright Airfield and Battelle Memorial Institute from 1949 that my buddy.

The GERB video. UAP GERB. Everybody check out his channel. Shout out to GERB. Amazing researcher. You should have him on. He's awesome. Yeah, so there's this titanium, and I think it's a, I don't know, I don't know.

It's a crazy word, right? Yeah, I don't know, but it's titanium nickel alloy. Yes. Yeah. Titanium nickel alloy. And there's evidence that we have that we have that. Well, we definitely have that. That was declassified as a material that we have in 1961.

Then you have to ask the question, why does Battelle Memorial Institute that runs all of our nuclear stuff, have a contract with right airfield, where the Roswell materials were, yeah, Nittinol. Netanyl, that's what it was. That's the word. Yep. So that, they have a contract to study this stuff between Wright Airfield and Betelmaurel Institute in 1949. Again, there's the nuclear connection.

And then I think in 61 or 62, it comes out that Nittonall's a thing. But why are you keeping it secret for 12 years? And then Nittal is really interesting because it exactly patterned. So Jesse Marcell, this Air Force Flight Surgeon, he comes out later in 1979. I think, saying, you know, actually I was like forced to pose with this, you know, fake material. And, you know, the Project Mogul comes out later. The Air Force says that, you know, it was just a weather balloon or whatever. But actually, it was this kind of, you know, memory metal that was like extremely very durable.

And like you could, you could apply a lot of stress to it. And it would kind of like, it had like shape memory. It would go, it would go back into its original form and look unperturbed. Yeah. And knit and all is that. Yes. That's, we know that. That's the case. Yeah, that is crazy.

And James Fox's witnesses literally said this is the exact same stuff they found in Brazil when that thing crashed. There you go. Yeah, so. They said that he explained it. Like he was like foil that you could bend around and it would go back to its original form. Yeah. And Robert Sarbacher, who was very close with Thomas Townsend Brown, he's probably working on a lot of this stuff, talks about thinly layered materials that, you know, do similar things from that time. Yeah. So there's, I think they are there.

And then the bodies, I, you know, rank a little lower probability. but I've heard from some pretty credible sources that I think there's something there too. So what do you make about what And moment of contact is And I think more by the way is going to come out About the Virginia case Moment of contact is in some ways

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that. Okay. So, yeah. So I think I'm really excited to see what happens there. But like I would rank that as higher probability as far as the beings than Roswell because we have witnesses who are alive and we have them on video saying they were right there. There's the three women who like, come on. How about the scene where they go to the guy's house and he's like, he pulls his gun out and he's about to shoot him?

Totally. that scene and then, you know, there's this doctor that reportedly died when the thing was in his hands and this kind of ammonia like smell which keeps coming up. So, yeah. He said that the doctor who did the x-ray said the whole hospital spent like ammonia for a week. There, yeah. Or no, no, no, sulfur, I'm sorry. Sulfur. Sulfur, which is the smell of the devil. So yes. Weird. Yeah. Then you have to ask yourself the question like, yeah, how much of that stuff is actually just historical and real. Like we, if something has a religious veneer to it, we throw it out. is not historical, but we have to remember, like, pre-enlightenment, everybody was religious,

everybody. Yes. So it's history. It's not religious. Just because something has a religious overlay to it doesn't mean it's inherently not true. You can say a lot of the things in the Bible feel beyond the pale for you to believe or whatever, like the seas parting and the old, whatever. Yeah.

But to say that, like, somebody definitely didn't have this experience that seemed paranormal, we put this religious overlay over there, I think is extremely close mind. Sure. Yeah. And we have all these examples now of people experiencing paranormal stuff, and it's just not a religious overlay because that's not the kind of mythology of today, sciences. Right, right. Yeah. Again, like you say, you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Yeah. But there's, when it comes to the crashes, though, what do you make of the crashes? Like, if these things are so advanced, if they're extraterrestrosals or if they're future humans that are 500,000 years in the future, why are they crashing? Yeah, this gets into weird stuff, but I think there's high-powered radar that was developed. in the 40s. I think Watson Watt was like the first guy that developed radar that was in Britain and then we started to experiment with more and more high powered radar and that we had that at White Sands and I think we had that probably at right airfield and I think we've had that at Air Force bases across the US and then I think they're attracted to nuclear stuff and so I think

they they can be disrupted by some of these high powered radars and this is where I it's the conversation kind of gets weird because I and they're not aware of our high powered radar. I think that's possible, man. I mean, there's also, yeah, I think it's possible. Like, they could not be care. Like, okay, if they're, like directed energy weapons. Is that like similar? Yeah, and it's weird. I don't like talking about it because I think it's kind of fucked up, to be honest. Like, I don't think that should be, you know, yeah, it's, it's kind of weird. But, yeah. How so? What do you mean? Well, just messing with these things at all.

I think they're not kind of interfering with us. And so we shouldn't interfere with that. Oh, totally. You know? But yeah, I think as far as that being possible, I don't think we know what they are. I think we're assuming, oh, they traveled the cosmos to get here and they're so advanced or whatever. And then they get messed up due to our, you know, like, how do we have the hubris to think that we could like pop them out of the sky with this stuff? It's like, we don't know what they are and like why they're here.

And there are ways in which you could be extremely advanced and then ways in which you could be super simple. Like, AGI is way more advanced. Not AGI. Any AI model is way more advanced on like vector calculus than like a human. Way more advanced. When it comes to like snap intuition and like judgment of like kind of multimodal stuff like across different domains, humans are way more advanced than AI.

Right. So this idea that like they are stepwise better than us in like every single way and can't crash. I think it's ridiculous. And then it also is predicated on the space alien thing that like again, we don't know. Like they could just exist in this kind of interior fabric of reality. They could be kind of mostly ignoring us outside of certain things that light up in our population around consciousness or nuclear, you know, things of that nature. And so, yeah, the development of certain, you know, weapons technology might interfere with them. And I don't think that's crazy to say.

Well, it might not be as crazy if they were sending things that weren't biological, right? If they were sending sort of drones through or reconnaissance drones, like kind of like we send to other planets. Everybody I know is deep on this topic says that the biological stuff, they're drones. And like the grays and all this. They're like 3D printed things. They're anatomically compiled like what is DARPA looking into right now? Like like programming biology. Yes.

So like that's probably what they are too. And if you think talk, look at like all the interactions with the alien beings. They're always like, do not fear. Do not fear. We won't hurt you. This will take a second. And then they like, you know, this is like an incision and they like put an implant in you. And then they go away.

And so like they are doing a low level task. They're probably not the beings themselves. They're probably von Neumann replicator envoys to like achieve a specific function. So it's not going to be that catastrophic if they lose something. No, not at all. If they lose something to a lightning strike or D.EW or whatever. No, it's like your little robot avatar. But some people think that they're crashing them on purpose, right?

Yeah, we're like, yeah, it's like a donation or a gift. Jacques Ville speculates that. I don't, this is where I have no idea. Yeah. But I do believe they are crashing. There are just so many, I mean, Leonard Stringfield at 119 cases. There's a guy named Ryan Wood who has 104 cases, most of which are uncorrelated with the Leonard Stringfield cases. So when you're talking about those like anatomically 3D printed biological beings that everyone thinks about as like the little gray aliens.

Yeah. When I had Greer in here last week, he's, as soon as I said that, asked him about those things, he goes, oh, that's just CIA. I'm like, what about Willie Strieber? He's like, oh, that's all CIA. That's all CIA mind control stuff. He completely, he completely brushed it off as, like, intelligence, black shit happening. Yeah. He, his easy straw man for anything that he thinks is, like, fake in the UFO world is, it's like, Intel, national security, deep state, whatever.

And, like, I just think that's, like, super close-minded thinking. And, like, I don't know. I don't know. It could be in the case of Whitley. Whitley did, Whitley has a really interesting story where he was, he did a great podcast with him that everybody should check out. but there were experiments done on him as a child at Randolph Air Force Base near San Antonio, I believe. Did he tell you about when he went to Mexico? Yes.

Yeah, that was very strange as well. Yeah. So I don't know what to make of, yeah, I don't know if you like have like a theory there. But I mean, that's I think less of an uncommon story than people realize as well. These like gate programs, these gifted and talented student programs, recruiting kids. Stranger things type shit. Stranger things. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. Whitley, first of all, when he came on that podcast, I didn't know he had an implant. He fucking dropped that on me right when we started recording. Did he, by the way, touched the implant? No, I didn't touch it, but he gave me, he showed me a video. You should have, dude, because that thing is weird.

I touched it. He sent me a video of it. There's a video of it I have, and then he showed me, like, the x-rays of it. I saw you touch it, though. Yeah, that's crazy. And he says that he says that it moves around. Yeah, that's what he said.

He said they tried to take it out, and it just moved, like, Yeah, yeah. Which also is a common thing that you hear of these things move on their own metabolism, which is, that's very common with the implant thing. So again, it points to this kind of biological drone thing. Have you read all Willie's books? Or did you just read? No, I've just read Communion.

So there's a bunch of other stuff. Oh, and I read his book on Jesus, actually. Oh, did you really? Yeah, I read that one too. But there's a lot of, there's a lot of interesting stuff that he didn't include in communion that he does include in his other books. This fellow I had on the show, Jason Giorjani, is like, I've seen that episode. He is a historian of Whitley Streber. He's read every single book front to back multiple times.

And I spent like two hours on the phone with him before I had Whitley in here. And there's a lot of other interesting things, like wild, wild things that he left out of communion. Like for example, there's one scene in one of his books. I can't remember the name of the book, but where he talks about when the alien girl is like riding him. Okay. He says there's a CIA guy in the room watching him. A CIA guy that he knows. Watching him have sex with an alien.

Watching him have sex with an alien. No way. And like, like, how do you explain that? First of all, why did you leave that out of the book? Yeah. What was going? I think I talked, I don't know if I don't remember if I asked him about that in the podcast. But like, there's, there's so many just bizarre.

And then also like the history of him going to Mexico. Yeah. And like, he didn't want to talk about that. me on the show. I don't know if you talked about it with you, but like apparently there were some kids who went down to Mexico and he was a part of it where he was at some house that was like guarded by the military and it was all military stuff where they were like subjecting children to watching like murder videos of people getting like tortured and murdered to something to do something to their mind. Yeah. To like to induce some sort of trauma to these children. Right. So if you combine that

with his stories. Yep. What do you, I don't know what to make of that? Well, I do think the inducing of trauma and dissociation is more common than we realize when it comes to these programs that recruit kids and try to find kids with high sigh abilities. And this is going to sound nuts to the average person who doesn't believe that there's any sort of mind matter interaction or whatever. But parapsychology has been studied at elite universities since, you know, mid-century,

Stanford Research Institute, Princeton, you know, engineering and anomalous research, Pear Lab, Duke, the Rhine Center from 1931, 1960 was the first one in the U.S. And I think aerospace is known about this for a long time.

And unfortunately, I think we have a dark past, checkered past when it comes to M.K. Ultra, which came out in the church committee in 1975. And I think M.K. Ultra and and a lot of the psychic stuff dealt with trying to find kids and induced trauma. And so I don't know, you know,

I find Whitley to be pretty honest in his readout of things. You know, like, he's like a good guy. And then like, you know, I don't know what to make of any of this stuff. I just listen to what people say and repeat it. Like, I don't know.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think, I think, and then you can obviously remember things falsely as your kid, you know, a kid. So I don't know on that. but I would be lying if I weren't to say that that didn't kind of pattern match to other stories that you hear. Whitley's story. Yeah.

I just interviewed a psionic asset on my show. Oh, Jake Barber? Not Jake Barber. Oh. But Jake Barber does say, he says, he kind of hints at this. He goes, I was traumatized. He had a really rough child. His stepfather didn't treat him super well.

And he kind of talks about how he was gifted as well, where he was. was like, you know, he had matched colors up as a kid with major chords and minor chords. And so certain colors would make you happy, like a major chord, certain colors would make you sad, like a minor chord. And to me, like my like almost coded read on that is like maybe, you know, he was part of something as a kid. Or maybe they like, they, they, they looked at him. Or yeah, maybe maybe early on they thought that he had something kind of special going on. And that, again, a lot of stuff around gate programs in the U.S. I think are going to come out in the next year. Gate, G-A-T-E, G-A-T-E, gifted and talented education.

Oh. Yeah. I think a lot of stuff there is going to, Stranger Things style stuff. I think Stranger Things as a show will look a lot more real than people now think it is in a couple years from now. Yeah. And there are people I know deeper than me on this who are the tip of the spear as far as investigative research on this stuff. so I'm not trying to blow up their spot. And yeah, but it's kind of, it's kind of weird.

It's kind of weird. It's really weird. That's putting it light. It's really like it's messed up. I was, I'm just like, my pause with the shit with people like Jake Barber and all the whistleblowers, for that matter, is that if I am a part of this secret government, right, or this secret rogue private organization that has possession and understand. this super anti-gravity UFO technology contacting non-human intelligence, whatever it is, it seems like something that's so much more powerful than anything that the U.S. government would even have or any government for that matter.

And if I wanted to protect my secrets, I would absolutely send out fake whistleblowers. Sure. I think we don't know exactly what to do with what we have. I think we have bits and people. Okay, take this analogy. if you had, you gave a thumb drive to a caveman, would they have any idea what to do with it? They don't know information theory.

They don't have a computer to plug it into. Just look at this thing. They'd probably like try to make a fire with it. Right, right, right. So like I think that's, you know, maybe you can get some interesting derivative technology. Maybe the, you know, the nickel alloy titanium. Maybe we've done some interesting stuff with that, you know.

Maybe there are elements of the Philip J. Corso day after Roswell, you know, narrative that are true, that some of this stuff has made its way into civil side. you know, infrastructure. Yeah. Elements of it, I think there's clearly falsities in that book. Like, I don't think semiconductors required, you know, alien tech to, you know, their patents of transistors that go way back to the 30s. But by and large, I think we're extremely confused and in the Stone Age on what we've retrieved.

And so if you find this stuff and it's like Cold War era. When you say we, who do you, I mean, it's the U.S. government, the U.S. The people who know what's going on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so like, yeah, I mean, just like America. Okay. I don't know if you meant me or if you met the guy that's working on the craft. Let me tell you, I got a stash, Danny.

Yeah, yeah. No, I think, I think, like, the programs around this stuff. I don't, I don't, I don't think they know exactly what they're working with or what they're doing. And to me, that explains a lot of, like, you, like, you need, in the era of Cold War secrecy, you know, we're, like, we're, like, way ahead of, like, China and Russia on, like, retrieving this stuff to begin with. then like you can keep it super over compartmentalized right and like that's fine it doesn't matter then all of a sudden if like the cold war ends and then now we're probably back in another cold war and it's this multipolar kind of scary thing and china starts to catch up and like eat our lunch on some of this stuff then all of a sudden you need like some civil side eyes like

a lot of our best and brightest are not working at like lockyed or northrop or like any of these places so you need to like let certain things out and so So that, I'm not cynical about, you know, a lot of these whistleblowers. I think they're genuinely wanting to come out. Why they might have some sort of top cover or like why they're not dead. To me, might be explained by you got to kind of let the cat out of the bag somewhat, if that makes sense. Because you need certain eyes on this thing, because I don't think we've made a ton of progress on many dimensions. You know, I've heard rumors that we have alien reproduction vehicles or, you know, advanced

research vehicles that pattern match the UFOs and we've made them flyable. And then I just I just don't know. I don't know if that's like, you know, how much progress we've actually made. And then even if we have made progress, it's really that fundamental question of like, if we're at parity with China or Russia, then this stuff has to come out somewhat, if that makes sense. And then we live in this like information age too where it's just like impossible to keep a lid on this shit.

And I do think there's these snowball effects where somebody displays a tremendous. this amount of courage like David Grush where he pieces together all this stuff and he you know goes forward to the inspector the IC Inspector General gives him a thousand pages and you know offers to say I'll go to skiff with anybody and I'll you know show you where the bodies are buried and I can give you the exact addresses of the you know facilities and stuff and it does this in front of Congress and I think if you're on the program you're you're somebody like Jake and you're seeing that you're like this guy's really courageous and it like it inspires you you know it's like the banister effect Roger Bannister broke the four-minute mile, and then 10 people broke the four-minute mile, like, two years after him.

I think you see somebody go a little, you know, you've had like moral qualms about what you've been doing already, and you see somebody like, you know, take it this far, and you're like, okay, well, I know a little bit more, and I can probably help with this effort. I'm going to go a little farther, and so. Yeah. Yeah. I can see the problem, though, which you alluded to in that conversation with Jake, that if all this super high-tech secretive war stuff that we're working on is so compartmental. and not available to even people in the highest levels of the military and, you know, the highest generals and the president, like if we get into a war, I'm sure that Russia and China under their dictatorships, they're going to be able to get shit done instantly and they probably don't

have this problem of compartmentalization and keeping secrets from their actual government. Yes. Right? So, like, that's not, that's a problem. That's a huge problem from a national security standpoint. I mean, read the three body problem. And, like, that's how it goes down. And it's like you see like a scientist that, you know, you're the CCP or the, you know, the PLA.

Yeah. And you see a scientist like working on some really interesting neutrino info transfer. You're something like really far out, crazy stuff that like you don't have. Yeah. You just knock on their door. You say we're relocating you. Yeah. You're working at this base.

That's it. That's the way it goes. That's not the way the U.S. The U.S. is like you have these competing factions. You have all this, you know, it's just, it's way more of this kind of uncoordinated octopus. Right, exactly. That's a good way put it. So I think the reason, you know, I think a lot of these NDAs that people have signed in the aerospace context to work on this stuff in the past are extremely threatening. And there are, you know, really scary retributions that could occur

hypothetically for a lot of these people. Yeah. And then I do think, uh, whatever legacy programs, like, don't want anything to come back, come out, are on their back heels. And they're like, some limited disclosure has to occur and I think they're sort of they're kind of like we don't quite know what to do here and I think my hope is there are people on the inside who are a little more like

we need basic ontological truths to come out it's like nuclear stuff right like you have nuclear physics you have programs all over the country it's physics it's open source ontological truths the idea is that there could be bodies and crafts like people need to know this shit that's crazy

and then you know any anything that, you know, any trade secret that could immediately be weaponized or as low barrier to entry, you know, blow up the world kind of stuff, that obviously should be classified. Yeah. And we just need to think about it reasonably through those lens. But I do think there are people on the inside who are just dogmatically pro-secrecy because it's like this like cargo cult bureaucracy thing. It's just like they don't, they don't understand how to be any other way or something.

Yeah. I mean, the most frightening thing is that if this rogue government that's like has a its own Air Force, military, Navy, whatever, that has all this power and has this technology that could essentially, like, beat any world government's technology as far as, like, war or whatever it is. Like, and if they go row and they start, and if they decide to start a war against the rest of the world, like, that's the worst. That seems like the scariest thing regarding these companies that have this stuff.

because what's going to stop them from just keep from keeping more secrets from you and just and just taking this technology and exponentially gaining more information and and revealing more insight into it and understanding more about the universe and keeping that shit from the U.S. Right. Turns into like a breakaway civilization. What stop? A breakaway military.

Breakaway military. It's not a country. Well, I did. But it's like a company that's more powerful than any country, you know? I did find it very interesting that like Matthew Littlesberger, the Green Beret, he blows up a cyber truck in front of the Trump Tower. So it's like this weird message or something. Symbolic, yeah. Felt kind of symbolic, like some sort of meme warfare thing.

And then the email he sends to Sam Shumate, who goes on Sean Ryan, is all about Chinese gravidic propulsion drones, which I think is China is not flying with impunity with, you know, electrogravity propulsion. Like, that's game over. right like that's like we're in the Cuban missile crisis been going on for three months or like that it's not that but maybe it's sort of a little bit of a shot across the bow bow depending on what was what force was behind that because clearly he was dealing with a lot of trauma PTSD and you know I think was like a good guy in his private life but like what leads somebody who's like that to do that and to send that email and I did speak to a green beret um a about this and he was like maybe this is a way to let out some of the gravity stuff that you know we have made breakthroughs with so think about it like this like maybe you're sending a little shot across the bow again to Elon to Trump you know civil side government and you're saying we've got some some harder core shit that you don't have and again this is deep conspiracy I would hold this very kind of loosely low probability but it goes to the point that you know you've made and then yeah I don't know I don't know I don't know where they are technologically

and if they even have the power to sort of flex and do that. But I do think that aerospace has some pretty advanced technology that, you know. Those drones over New Jersey, they didn't seem like anything special. Like they seemed moving like regular drones. Like they weren't moving at light speed or like they weren't moving like tic tacks making sharp turns. They were just like floating around like normal quadcopters. They were floating around for longer periods of time than you would ever expect. Like, you know, hours and hours at a time they'd stay stationary.

So they were exhibiting some kind of exotic effects with the kind of winds and stuff. But like, yeah, generally. And then I would make a huge distinction between a lot of people were seeing orbs and like other weird stuff. And then there were like the fixed wing drones that looked like they were meeting FAA regs, which were obviously human. And so I would make a clear distinction between those two things. I would also make a distinction between the stuff showing up at nuclear bases, which if you know Robert Hastings work. Yes. That looks more, I don't want to say paranormal, because that's...

sounds quacky, but that looks more like of the UFO, the classic UFO variety. Right. You have to classify it. I'm just saying that the New Jersey stuff didn't seem like anything near the UFO variety. No, I agree with that. A lot of it. And then you had salium nuclear plant right there and you had stuff showing up there and Picoteney Arsenal, right, you know, stuff was showing up.

Right, right, right. I think it was definitely our government or one of our government contractors that was in charge of that. I don't know what they were doing. But did you hear the audio of, you know, Wright Patterson's like comms links were down like their power was out for like a few hours like that to me is classic Robert Hastings UFOs and nukes and that was happening around that time what happened with right Patterson I thought they just had to I thought they just had to like shut down the runway or

something for no that I think the power was out for for a couple of hours right Patterson the power was out I believe either the power costs all comms were down for a little bit yeah and there's audio this up can we find we should look it up yeah yeah let's find let's find out I think it's on Twitter is where What would we search? Do Wright-Raterson-Communcations Outage? Wright-Patterson drone outage. Right, Patterson Air Force Base experienced a closure of its airspace for about four hours

late Friday night into early Saturday morning due. The sightings of small unmanned aerial systems, drones, in the vicinity of the base. The base's airspace was closed as a precautionary measure to ensure the safety of the installation and its residents. no property was damaged or residents harmed during the entrance so they closed the airspace okay and I guess there was maybe there wasn't a comms outage it was like it was due it was precautionary because there were stuff flying around it right right right huh yeah I did hear I did hear like a some sort of radio comp thing too where they were talking about like shutting down the airspace or

I have a crazy one for you so in 2010 after Robert Hastings wrote his book which was 2008 Yeah. F.E. Warren experienced an outage for... What's F.E. Warren? F.E. Warren is a nuclear base in Wyoming. Oh, okay. And it experienced an outage for... They said 59 minutes, but Robert Hastings did back-channeling, and it was 24 hours.

What? And President Obama was briefed on this. Now, do F.E. Warren outage Atlantic. F.E. Warren, yeah, outage, Atlantic. And you'll see that this was reported on by, like, mainstream media. And I don't know, go to the... Atlantic broadband? No, like the Atlantic, like the, you know, the periodical or whatever.

Oh, and the Atlantic Magazine. Atlantic Magazine. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Magazine, Atlantic Magazine, yeah. Is it a power outage? Failure shuts that third article. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, okay, this is really crazy.

So President Obama was briefed on this. And Hastings backchanneled with this guy, this retired missile technician named John Mills. Yeah. And he backchanneled with some missile security officers on site and were like there was a Tick-Tac flying around all over the base. And that caused the outage. Is this like one of the Minutemen missile silos,

like where they have those underground ICBMs? I know Malmstrom is. I don't know if F.E. Warren is, maybe. But this is what's crazy is you can even see in the article at the top of the article, engineering, So power is crossed out And then it goes into engineering failure I think it's covering their ass

I think they don't want it to seem like it was attributed To a UFO or to a Tic Tac or whatever Which again Robert Hastings back to you know And by the way I should say I think you know I was wrong about the right path thing So I don't want to like conflate like this is another thing that I think is very Legit But I mean that's that's huge when they shut down a nuclear

Dude Obama was briefed yeah Right. That's a big deal. No shit. Yeah. And then you're backchanneling with these guys who say that it's attributed to a Tic Tac flying around in the airspace. Right. And then they're crossing out power and they're making it seem like it's an engineering thing. What did I say?

Three other LCCs were successfully restarted. The suspect LCC remains offline. What is the LCC? Let's see here. The LCC launch control center. Oh, okay. So the launch controls centers. Yeah, they lost comms.

Like they couldn't launch the thing if they wanted to. They interrogate each missile in sequence. So if they begin to send signals out when they're not supposed to, receivers on the missiles themselves will notice this and send out error codes. It left 50 missiles in the dark. The missiles then restarted one of the LCCs and began to normally, wow, dude. Dude, that's freaky. It's really freaky.

And then you're doing, you know, Hastings, who I think is a very honest actor, is doing backchanneling with these guys. And they're like, there's a tick-tack flying around, and that's what caused the outage. And then I think one of them faces kind of career reprisals as a result of this back channel with Hastings and stuff. And then you have that, it's crossed, power is crossed out and engineering is put up. It's like the live editing is shown on the Atlantic article to like cover it up. We're on, we're on the Brave browser. The Brave browser shows you all. I wonder if it shows it in Chrome.

It does show it in Chrome too. It does, because I put it in my documentary on Hastings. Oh, okay. So anyway, so the right pat thing, that is interesting that I guess it sounds like they were just incursions on right pad. And then they ended up shutting the airspace down as a result of that wasn't a comms link failure. So that's my bad. I think they were getting ready for the Eagles to win the Super Bowl. So they had to like start figuring out Philadelphia.

They knew people were going to be looting and terrorizing the whole town. It was going to turn into Afghanistan for a week. That's funny. Exactly. But that just goes to the point that like if these things are showing up around sensitive military sites, it points to the nuclear connection. And it points to this more generalizable three body problem narrative where they're not just showing up at nuclear sites. They're showing up at advanced science research sites and the most sensitive military sites. And that was the case with the New Jersey drone. The whole New Jersey drone, the name New Jersey drone is a sci op. If you love diving into culture and comedy, like on Danny Jones podcast, playoff hockey is right up your alley. NHL on T&T has the best coverage, making every game feel intense and unpredictable.

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They were in Florida. They were everywhere. And they weren't just drones. The drones were drones. You could see that were taken down occasionally. They're blinking red and green because they're meeting FAA regs, obviously drones. Yeah. You know, like clearly those were drones.

In fact, even the White House statement on the drones, the press secretary. What Trump said? Trump said, well, Trump says it's very weird, very strange. It's not adversary, and they're going to the garage. They're coming from the garage, and we know where the garage is. So that's interesting, right? That's weird, yeah. The way he talks is just so confusing sometimes.

It's very confusing, but then his white, the press secretary tries to minimize it and say there's nothing to see here. She says, oh, they were FAA approved. They were research drones. Yeah. See, that begs a question. If you were given orders by the president who told you, we will clear this up, immediately because he was asked this as soon as he was elected. He goes, what happened there? We have to

figure that out. And he like orders somebody to figure it out. So those were your orders. You're saying we have FAA research drones. What were they researching? If it's a prosaic, easy thing to explain away, you say it. If it's not, if it is not, then you don't say it. So I think it points to some more exotic answers. Again, I don't know. You have to think probabilistically about all this stuff. and I'd be open to it not being UFOs, but I think there's a lot of evidence. Also, Southport, New Brunswick, Duke Energy Plant. There was UFOs showing up there, too.

So drones are UFOs? UFOs. Meaning what? What do they look like? They look more like these plasma orb style things. Yeah. Like the Bledsoorbs? More like the Bledsoorbs.

Like those look very different than these fixed wing. They're just different. Okay. That's why the whole thing is, it's like not New Jersey and it's not just drugs. Yeah. It's a whole host of stuff. And it's, again, you get into these weird kind of questions of like, in the case in which- Were they trying to distract? Were they trying to run a simulation?

There's so many options. Yeah. But also in the case in which it wasn't ours. Say in the case in which there were real UFOs, like not ours, not prosaically explained UFOs. Yeah. You would probably put some stuff out to research it. Yeah. You put some of our stuff out.

Right. Right. So it's like really murky. and it's way more charismatic and easy and goes viral much quicker to be like there's a loose nuke on the eastern seaboard. Right. That will go viral way faster than like it's actually a whole host of things. Right, right, right. It's not that interesting.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think that's kind of what happened. And that's why like the, you know, if there were sciops around explaining things away, I think that's why it was so charismatic. But then you talk to like the nuclear support teams that the emergency teams nest or whatever, all of those guys were like, no, there's nothing there. You know, nobody was like being evacuated. So it clearly wasn't that.

So it's weird. Dude, with like all of this stuff that's been happening lately with the news cycle and all the crazy things that have gone on in the last six months, like from Trump almost getting killed on on live TV. Yeah. To like a week later, that story is completely dead. And then we have like the Olympics debacle. And then we have like the debate, the election and all this, the New Jersey drones. Like there's like so much stuff happening on top of the fact that people are more awake now than ever. Yeah.

Of all the fuckery that's going on with like not only just the media trying to subvert stuff with advertisers, but with the government trying to subvert stuff. Like people more aware of the word sciop now than ever. I'm sure if you did a Google trend on that word sciop. It's probably a skyrocketing last year. For sure. So like. I wonder if the government came out tomorrow and said, yes, we made a deal with these alien civilization and they're here. We have their UFOs.

I wonder legitimately what percentage of people would believe that or just run the other way. This is such an important thing you're bringing up because already with the Jake Barber piece, the UFO world has cleaved off and is on another island of reality from mainstream media has no idea. who Jake Barber is. Unfortunately, it sucks because it's such an important story. But like, because it's a hard pill to swallow, we're talking about psionics, mind matter connection. Yeah. You know, uh, egg shaped things showing up in our airspace. Like, it's a lot to stomach all at once. Yes. And it breaks the brain of these Normie legacy people who like aren't down these rabbit holes that you and I are down because we've spoken to a lot of people. And so it's this really important ontological question where it's like, people like, we need disclosure. We need

disclosure. I'm like, if you walked into a hangar and were shown a UFO, you walked into the UFO, it wouldn't change your life at all. You'd have no idea what you were looking at. And it would beget all sorts of other questions that you'd have that wouldn't be answered upon walking into the UFO or whatever. So it's disclosure isn't some file that's going to come out where it's like this, this, these are, you know, facts or whatever. I do, look, I do think if Trump or Tulsi or like one of these people with like, you know, serious, you know, credentials and the government, like cabinet level credentials or even from the past cabinet level credentials says there's a they're there. I do think that's like a step function up as far as disclosure. Like that's, that's progress.

But it's going to be this, it's, you're dealing with people's core belief systems. And it's going to be this sort of broken, jagged process. It's not going to be this like overnight, like, we have disclosure. Like, people in our world are, you know, I don't know where you, lie, but in a lot of my world or whatever, they're like, we've had disclosure. Like, so much has come out. Outside of 8K imagery with, like, the president standing next to a UFO, it's like we've kind of given a lot. If they wanted to make it available, if they wanted to do disclosure, think about it. They're doing it the right way. Right. No one's losing their mind. Yeah, yeah, sure. Religion is not burning to the ground. People aren't quitting their jobs and, like, shooting. It's not turning into Mad Max out

there. Like, they, they are doing it the right way. Although, like, kind of what I was alluding to is like, with the distrust of media and government now and people being aware of the deception, the strategic deception that they are capable of, if the government was to say, yes, there's aliens. We have them. We have a, we have a saucer, right? There would be a huge chunk of people who think automatically, if they're saying that, the opposite must be true. Yeah, of course, of course. And I understand that skepticism.

And I have a reflexive allergic reaction to the government telling me anything as well. And I would just say, just because you think somebody has an ulterior motive, because a lot of people in the UFO world have a fucking ulterior motive, doesn't mean everything they're saying is wrong. Right. Maybe they're doing some weird controlled opposition thing. Maybe they're doing something where they want to make money and inherit some equities outside of the Maybe they're like, I can give you 50 million reasons as to why somebody would say some shit about UFOs and, you know, claim to come from an authoritative background that aren't pure.

That doesn't mean the facts they're saying are wrong. And I think, you know, a lot of these guys, like, I think that the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, it's just breaks their brain. it breaks their priors. And yeah, it's tough. And that's why you think mainstream media hasn't reported on Jake's story? Yeah, I think it breaks. I think they don't know how to process it. I think they have no idea how to, the computer, it like breaks their computer.

I mean, dude, those guys are mind controlled. I mean, like in. Those guys want money, though. They want, that's true. They do want money, but they also, you know, have certain commercial interests and, like, are, you know, connected to, like, various. I mean, you're seeing what's happening with Mike, you know, Mike Benz is reporting on all this, like, USAID, like, you know, back channel shit with, like, every legacy media.

I am so shocked that YouTube's letting that shit go. It's wild. It's wild that they're letting it go. But I think we've crossed the Rubicon of sorts. But, like, I hope so. We don't know who's making calls at these studios. But look at, like, COVID. Like, for a year.

I mean, even in, like, I think, 22, the New York Times published a steel manning of the, like, zoonotic origin of COVID. Yeah. It's like, give it up, guys. It's so stupid. Like, you literally have to, it takes the probabilistic thinking of a child to realize their wet markets all over China. Why was it the one wet market?

Right next to the wound on incident of virology, which is studying spike proteins added on to like a basically modification of SARS and how they can create a pandemic. Like, give me a break. There's an outbreak of chocolatey goodness in Hershey, Pennsylvania. John Stewart said it. That was hilarious. And that just gets so simple, right? But they don't, they're overeducated.

They've lost their instinct. They don't actually think about any media story critically at all. I hate to say, I come from this world. I went to Columbia and like, you know, I know a lot of these people. I love them. They think I'm crazy now, whatever. But they don't actually do thinking around like they hear a story. And they're, ideas are fashion statements.

And they don't want to look bad at the water cooler. you know, at Conday Nest or wherever they are. You know, they don't want to like, and they're snarky. And if you watch, you know, I used to, I interned for, you know, the Daily Show back in the day. And like, I thought they were. Yeah, that's crazy. John Stewart was a total bulwark against neoconservatism back in the day. That was very healthy and, like, amazing.

And now he's just out of, they're out of touch, man. Like, like, you have, you know, these correspondents go out to these, like, mager rallies and they just, like, make fun of them. And, like, they're snarky. And, look, I was probably. guilty of that I was anti-Trump in 2016 and like I thought he was kind of crazy I was the same way yeah I was like these these states don't understand these red states don't understand what's good for them like you know and then you my now belief is like the more like you go through like the liberal arts like Ivy League education the more you lose touch with your

real instincts about reality and your your worldview and like mental models on things are actually like really wrong you're like way off and It's couched in this veneer of sophistry and of sophistication. And so it sounds really smart, but it's actually really stupid. And it's wrong. I try my hardest to be open-minded about things and look at things from multiple angles. But like every single big topic like UFOs or ancients, Graham Hancock's a big one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's like, no, no, no, they fucking love him. Well, it's either one or the other. He's so polarize it. It's so polarizing. And the lack of open-mindedness and ability to form independent thoughts outside of the comment bubble is astonishing. Yeah, no, it's crazy. And it's an age-old trope in history of this amateur gentleman journeyer who has correct instincts is outside of the priestly citadel of experts and then gets proven right. Heinrich Schleiman was this German businessman that was laughed at forever because he thinks.

thought the ancient city of Troy, you know, in the Peloponnesian War, written about by Homer and Thucydides was actually, you know, that wasn't mythology. Like, that was actually a real place. And then he goes out and he finds it in Anatolia and in the 1870s. And we have now to have tons of corroboration, that's now consensus. Louis Walter Alvarez thought that, you know, an asteroid impact took out the dinosaurs 66 million years ago. And in their case, they're actually were extremely credentialed. Luis Walter Alvarez, the father was, you know, in the Manhattan Project, very involved with Oppenheimer and so, but he was this like, you know, he was out of his domain, right? He was an archaeologist, but he was right, right?

And now you have Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson. They're saying the same thing about Younger Dryness Impact. They're also pointing to mythology just like Heinrich von Schleiman did in the case of Plato and dates around Plato, but they also have tons of archaeological evidence, like great archaeological evidence that there was an airburst from the Torrid Meteor stream around that time. And they're just not being taken seriously. and my money's on them. My money's not on the Citadel. So it's, yeah, it's just, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

there's a great book by this guy, Sam Arbisman. It's called the half-life of facts. Hmm. And at any point in history, we were wrong about 50% of the like conventional wisdom at the time, like, or roughly, right? Okay. Like, so we're probably wrong about 50% of what we know now. Yeah.

So if you were. going around being this like Michael Shermer style or Richard Dawkinskyll skeptic Neil deGrasse Tyson like we know everything you're you are being a historical you're engaging in bad thinking unless you can point to

some percentage of current knowledge that you think is wrong you are a you're like a member an extension of the Borg you're like you're the thought police for the conventional wisdom and you're probably wrong so yeah I just I like to system

go through the anomalies because I think that there tells on what the next scientific paradigms are. Like if you look at, you know, black body radiation was discovered by this German guy in the 1860s, we couldn't, that was the fact that that would create this ultraviolet catastrophe. It was this guy, Gustav Kurchop. We couldn't understand that until Max Planck in the quantum revolution in the 1900s. Oh, yeah. The Mercury, the orbit of Mercury wasn't understood in the Newtonian context and we needed general relativity to. explain it so when you see an anomaly like a UFO or like you know uh uh scabble you know Washington scablan's like you know impacts or whatever that you know you might represent you know

the younger driest thing you have to systematically look at the anomalies you can't ignore them right because they lead to new scientist this is the scientific revolutions 101 Thomas coon wrote about this in the structure of scientific revolutions the anomalies bring in the new paradigm yeah so what i think you're doing and what i love to do is like uh talk to people on the fringes, and just because you're talking to them doesn't mean you agree with everything they say. You're not platforming that. We have the benefit of talking to the people on the fringes and the people in the center of the academic institutions. Totally. Totally. Which they each one to, you know, some of them, the people in the academic institutions are most are in a bubble.

They're not talking to people in the fringe every day. Yeah. And same thing, most of the time with people on the fringes. And like the way I explained, like the whole Flint Dibble Graham Hancock thing is like, I completely understand how Flint Dibble, who his dad named him Flint, because he's an archaeologist, and his dad's probably an archaeologist. We spent his whole life studying archaeology, reading the boring books, doing the boring shit, traveling all over, digging through the mud and pulling stuff out his whole life. And nobody knows who the fuck you are. Then Graham Hancock comes along, writes some crazy fucking book and becomes a super celebrity and makes tons of money. Going on Joe Rogan all the time. I'm going to be, I'm going to be super jealous and resentful of that guy too.

100%. I'm not going to go as far as Flint Dibble did. Make that very clear. Some of the shit he did was really terrible in my opinion. And he was like lying about it. He was there certain slides were up on that Rogan episode that were just like wrong. And not only that, but like, and this is a super unpopular opinion. And I will get completely destroyed in the comments for saying this.

But I think Flint killed him on that debate. Oh, Hancock. having the ability of having being able to Monday morning quarterback and see okay he was wrong about a lot of stuff because he did do some dishonest things by like he was very confident in saying things that were quite literally wrong after

people were able to go back and review the stuff and Graham was actually able to go back over the podcast and find out like okay you're completely wrong about the number of ships or any of this other stuff that you were talking about but like I learned a fuckload from Flint during that podcast and he was able to fill in the gaps of stuff that Graham didn't really understand during that podcast I feel

Like, and I feel like even Rogan during that podcast was siding with Flint. Sure. On things. Like, he was like, Graham, don't you think that looks like, that looks kind of natural to me. Yeah, yeah. Like I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Anyways, that's neither here nor there. I, I, I think that, like, I thought he did a great job.

But what I don't like is how he went on Twitter afterwards and be like, oh, do you see how much I kicked Graham's ass during that podcast? Right. Right. Right. Subtweeting every tweet that Graham did looking like a complete doucheback. Totally. Yeah. But like, so I guess my point is, like, I understand, I understand how Flint feels. why he feels the way he feels. Yeah.

Right. And why people in academia feel the way, the way Flint feels. And I see how there's sort of like a riff between these two groups. And just like combine that with the way modern media works. Like podcasting is the number one form of information in the world now, right? And like people are more interested in the French stuff because it's exciting. Yep. And it's more sensational.

And I think, you know, long way of putting it. but, you know, academia, academics get resentful of that. And it's created this sort of like, this dichotomy, if you will. Totally. Totally. And, and I, but I think there's value in it to your point with Flint Double where it's like you need to stress test the really bold, grand new ideas and theories. And, yeah, I think science is a process. It's like, you know, you have skepticism and dogmatism and it's a cilin charybdis. And you want a, you want, you know, you want both.

And I think having debates like that are really good. But I'm always partial or sympathetic to, quote, unquote, platforming the people with the bold, grand ideas where, like, some of the stuff might be wrong semantically. Yeah. But they're directionally correct in like a big way that's exciting versus these guys that are just defending the modern paradigm because I don't think that gets us anywhere. Like, yeah, like, I agree. Like, Darwin is like a locally useful theory. Like I don't like, I wouldn't, I don't think like Darwin's like fake. It's a theory.

and I think there- Gravity's also a theory. Gravity is also a theory, totally. And I think it's also useful in a scientific, you know, I wouldn't like throw it out at all. Like these things are like extremely useful. Gravity is a great example because there are like many anomalies with it, both on a macroscopic, you know, level with dark matter

and on a microscopic level, you know, with, you know, it's irreconcilable with the other, you know, forces on a quantum level. And, you know, electrons don't exhibit gravity, you know, in the same way. you know, you know, microscopy objects do. Super wild shit. It's interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, yeah, I don't know. I think I'm always partial to let's like systematically talk to the people with the bold theories and then stress test and come at them and try to, you know, uh, uh, uh, negate any parts of their thinking that are kind of flimsy. Right. But like, you know, really take seriously their ideas, especially when they're driven. I think the difference between dibble. in Graham Hancock is like, one is driven more by intuition and this like life purpose mission thing.

Yeah. And in our modern day, that's seen as inherently BS or something. Whereas the other person's like, like, came up through the system. Yeah. And like that's just seen as more valid. And I would say if you're like, you feel like hermetically called to a thing, you're going to be extremely motivated. You're going to find out all sorts of stuff. And he had, I mean, we would not be talking about Gobeckley-TEPI if it weren't for Graham

Hancock. Exactly. And so we, the conventional wisdom on like how old civilization is would be the, you know, classic Mesopotamia is the cradle of civilization. So like, who's had more of an impact? Just based on that. 100%. It's Graham Hancock.

Even Flint said when he was in here, he goes, Graham inspired a lot of people that I know that are now academic archaeologists. There you go. They devoted their career to this stuff. There you go. So, you know. Totally. So, yeah, again.

And I don't even know, like, I don't even know what the actual objective was of that debate other than to like disprove Graham's ancient civilization idea. Debates like this are tough. Yeah. Because like often it's like, like I did like this informal debate with like Michael Shermer. I saw that. And like he was the guy that he debated who? Michael Shermer.

You're Michael Shermer and who? No, I, it was just me and him. Oh no, but I saw one on your channel with. Oh, no, no. That was Mick West and Merrick von Renencamp. And that was a tough one too where it's just you have the skeptics who I think do provide the service and I even came out thinking okay like Mick actually

you know has some interesting debunks in these certain areas I'm gonna like hold certain some of these videos in lower probability like actually one of my takeaways it's like video evidence isn't the kind of Archimedes lever for disclosure in general like it's not the thing you want to hinge your belief on at all because like they're all kind of murky and like not great

although I think maybe on the margins Merrick won the debate but yeah I think the classic thing with like skeptic versus pro when it comes to these really kind of hard to answer questions is like the pro people have all these reasons as to like why you know it's anomalous and then the anti people they just they sit on these kind of like oh it's law of large numbers or it's ockham's razor or it's like these like rules of thumb yeah that like are just it's like kind of lame and like provocative and like you're not actually looking at the data like

finally i think mc west has read UFOs and nukes by robert Hastings because it's such an important data set when it comes to the UFOs but he can't say anything there's nothing he can say because it's like how are you going to go at these guys you can't go at their credentials yeah you're just call them liars like they're on the PRP program it's kind of hard so like you end up with these this like two trains passing in the night in the debates where it's like one side has a data set and the other side just won't agree that the data set is legitimate they're just like it's survivorship bias it's file drawer issues it's you're a liar you're a grifter or whatever but like Look at the data.

Look at the, what do you mean? Like, I've met a lot of these guys who've seen the stuff at nuclear sites. And it's like, some of them have maintained queue clearances for years after they've seen this stuff. Like, and then at that point, it's like, I don't know what to tell you. If you're not going to like believe, you know, if you're not going to like read the book, which is a 580 page book, extremely dry and it's almost boring. Really?

Because it's so rigorous and good and meticulously done. Like Robert Hastings has like an idetic memory. And so like, you're either going to read the book. and like engage with it or you're not. And if you're not, then like, I don't know what the debate is about. Right. What do you make of Elon not being impressed or not being interested in this stuff? I find it really interesting.

You know, Starlink is just like an optical group of, you know, satellites. And it's the biggest, you know, optical, you know, group. But, and then obviously they do the RF communication. Have you seen, like, the videos of all the satellites that we have surrounding the Earth? It's insane. Yeah, it's crazy. Especially with Starlink is just blowing it out of the water. I mean, it's everywhere.

They have, I think it's Star Shield is like the dual use kind of, you know, optical or whatever. But so you hear that these things, the UFOs are like picked up by like other sensor modalities. I don't know on Elon. Like, look, in the world in which UFOs exist, I would have to think he's got to know some stuff, you know? Like I just, so I don't know if he's playing dumb.

Especially if these rocket guys like Tim are fucking dedicating their lives to this stuff. Totally. And they have any overlap. Okay, the interesting thing I thought on Elon is he, kind of tooth that he walked back a couple of things recently in the last couple of months somebody said talk mentioned david grush to him and said like you know maybe we're hiding all the secret tech and he said well if we are hiding secret tech i would hope that that would you know come out and so that that was a change in tune that wasn't this like you know joke oh i'm an alien or like i would

know like it's you know we don't have high resolution imagery like he kind of walked that back in that in that you know um interview question yeah and then the second thing he said i think Tucker asked him about UFOs, and he said, I think it's deep black American programs. Really? At that point, you're kind of backing yourself into a corner where it's really interesting. Like, what are you saying, man? Are you saying that we have deep black American programs that look like they're breaking physics? So, like, they break conservation momentum.

They fly mock, you know, 10, and then they stop on a dime. Yeah. And then they, you know, make right angle turns. Yeah. And then they go from, you know, right above the water to like above 80,000 feet, like David Fravers saying. and, you know, looks like they're, you know, not using chemical combustion. Because if you are, then you're saying we have physics that's in deep black compartments

that, you know, well surpass what we're doing with chemical combustion when it comes to Starlink where you have these, you know, I don't know, 36 Raptor engines and it's all just mass ejection. And it's all just, you know, Newton's laws. Yeah. And so it's, you're kind of backing yourself into a corner where it's like we either have secret physics or you're, because you're saying this stuff is real in that interview. You're saying the stuff is real. Or maybe there's, you could hang on like, that we have some, you know, really good, like, radar spoofing, you know, and like that would be your, you know, or Fleer spoofing or whatever.

You'd have, you know, some version of that. Maybe you could do holograms and optical spoof. I don't know what he would say, but it's weird. It's such a mind fuck because I think if I can think of anyone who would be more interested, who should be interested in stuff, I would think of him. No, I'm with you. It's a strange, it feels like, you know, just like there's like dark matter in physics. It's like, what's the dark matter there? Like, we can't detect something going on there.

And I don't know what it is. That's so true, man. That's so true. I've got to take a leak. Go take a quick break. Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, cool. All right, we're back from our PP break.

Yes. Yeah, the Elon stuff is crazy. So I did want to ask you, how did you find this guy, Jake Barber? And I don't even know where to start with this guy. Can you explain how you met him and then how? like what happened with him and where he came from like his story yeah so he was originally like a red team guy who was well he was on the program what does that mean

uh that means he was like meant to infiltrate like like adversary groups okay and stuff and so like he and he was like you know it's basically like security for the program so he was part of the the crash retrievable program he was pipeline through air force combat control which is a special the Air Force version of Special Forces. He didn't become Air Force Special Forces. At that point, he became kind of sheep-dipped, if you know that term in like Intel circles or whatever, like erased.

Like he became like, you know, director of operations for a helicopter company. And, you know, that was basically his title. Okay. But he was working with these, you know, prime contractors. You might be able to guess who they are. He doesn't reveal who they are exactly. But he is.

So he says he was working with these secret air. Aerospace contractors. Aerospace contractors. And I would imagine he's talking about companies that are like or similar to Battelle or any of these other ones. Like Lockheed or something like that. Yeah, I don't know. You could guess. He didn't.

He said, if you tried to guess two, you'd probably get them right on your first try. So I might have got those two right. Maybe. Maybe. And so he's doing retrieval operations for them. And then on behalf of his employer, he goes to Red Team Stephen Greer. Stephen Greer was the, we were just talking about this, he was like the go-to guy for like any whistleblower in the government. Like he was the guy, the disclosure project was for the last 20 years.

So he was trying to subvert Stephen Greer's whistleblowers. And in 2023, Stephen Greer held his like disclosure, you know, Congress thing or whatever. And he had done a version of this two decades prior in 2001, I think. And it was with a lot of really impressive amazing whistleblowers. And unfortunately, it's kind of couched under the veneer of Stephen Greer who has, you know, certain issues. Yeah. Everybody, I mean, every single respectable person in the UFO world, they all detest Stephen Greer. He can, I don't know why.

Yeah. I mean, I can, I can imagine why. Yeah. I don't know if there's like any kind of like, like, like solid reason why they don't like him. I don't know the guy personally. And I've been trying to interview him for like a year through various go-between. And it's, I've gotten a lot of like weird respect. like ego and responses.

I don't know what the deal is. Yeah. So for anybody watching, I'll put you in touch with them. Oh, thanks, man. Appreciate it. Oh, that'd be awesome. Yeah.

I'll trade you for a grush. That's not a fair trade, bro. I need somebody else. That's so funny. So we're trading them these UFO people like Pokemon cards. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I got to write you. It's, yeah.

Greer's like, in the Pokemon, what would he be? Is he like a... Don't say it. I don't know. I know like there's collectibles. You got to catch them all. But like, which one would Greer be?

Would he be the Charzard or what? Maybe it might be Charzard. I don't know. Okay. What's the big one that would puff out all that stinky gas? What's the most valuable Pokemon? Charzard, right? No, it's Mu.

It's Mu. No, Mu, Mu, too. No, mu is even more valuable than Mu too. Mutu, and then Mu is like the baby Muu, mu two, I think. Oh, okay. I don't know. Yeah, you got to, if you're collecting these guys, you've got to have, you got to have Greer on your belt.

Yeah, I know. Like, you explain that to me, right? Hook it up. He's one of the most legendary, like, OG UFO people. Totally. You said he was, like, in the 90s, he was the only guy. He was, like, the only guy. I mean, that's not, that's actually an important thing to correct.

He was the only very public-facing guy, and that's why he became who he is now. But I think he took a lot of his stuff from a guy named Bill Hamilton. William Hamilton, who would write about these deep underground military bases, covert operations. And there was a lot of actually hardheaded research going on at the time. And he kind of shorted up and made it this more public thing. And it was an interesting origin story because I don't quite understand how he went from, he was a physician. And he just says he was an ER doctor. He was a knee R doctor.

And then he got super into UFOs. He said during one of his CE5 things, there was an Air Force spook or something there and saw the stuff he was doing and told the CIA guy, the head of the CIA who then wanted to go to dinner with him. Yeah, it's super interesting. I mean, and again, I believe the Jake Barber account, and like it kind of comports with that where it involves like trying to call stuff in, which is so at that time,

you have this guy, Albert Stubblebine, who also has connections with remote viewing at the time, and John Alexander, who's this long time kind of UFO historian, but he also debunked certain things. Also very close to blood so. Also close to blood so. and inserts himself in like all sorts of interesting, Kate, like John Hutchinson was this guy who would claim to like have mind matter effects

with like these like metallic instruments around him in California and John Alexander shows up there. John Alexander is this very interesting figure in UFO world where he just pops in like, you know, at very opportune times. So Stubblebine career claims he offered him $2 billion to participate in the legacy UFO or, oh, I thought the side. I thought it was like, come join our UFO program or something. It was, okay, interesting.

He explained it to me, like, it was part of, offered him $2 billion to basically be a part of their building the public narrative or something. Okay, interesting, interesting. Well, that, yeah, it sounds like BS. Sounds like, right. I mean, like, I actually, I think there's an email showing that maybe, but I don't think the offer was real. I mean, Stubblebinds this weird character. He's Army Counterintel, and he's also on record. touting all sorts of other bizarre conspiracies.

And he's one of these people you just don't know. Subabinous. Yeah, yeah. And so it's one of these people you just don't know what to make of him. But they do insert themselves in Greer's life. And then Greer becomes the de facto guy where if you're on the inside and you're working at Lockheed or Northrop or, you know, you're a CIA contractor or whatever. And you see some shit and you want the public to know, you go to Greer. And so the disclosure project archives are to this day probably like among the best UFO. databases treasure troves of pretty interesting contemporary information and so I you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater as much as he's a very interesting kind of strange character

yeah there's easy to dismiss for sure yeah and there's definitely some messianic but like it feels like he's you know so he's the guy who's bringing the day it's like come on dude it's everybody you know yeah it is most people yeah and this you know it's just like there's also like a thing when somebody has all the answers to everything. Yep. Yep. You know, there's a weird thing that happens there, too. Yep.

Yeah. But what were we talking? Oh, we were talking about Jake Barber. So Greer was hosting this thing where he had all these whistleblowers. He was providing an outlet for these whistleblowers to come out. And you were saying that Jake Barber went there to try to... Red team. Red team meaning what?

Infiltrate Greer. And trying to like, like, bust one of these. guys for blowing the whistle. Bust the whole organization, maybe infiltrate the organization and then become, you know, like the guy from Legacy who's feeding info back into Legacy UFO programs from like, you know, this

important kind of vulnerability threat vector or whatever. Yeah. And so he's at this Congress or whatever, and you know, his story is that Michael Herrera, do you know who that is? Yeah. He's a Marine who was in the Philippines and he gets diverted with his

unit of, I think, like eight or nine people to Indonesia and Indonesia is a disaster zone. It's due to this earthquake. There's a tsunami warning. And so everybody's evacuating the area. And he's Marines, he and his Marines are apprehended. First, he sees an eight-gone, like an octagon shaped craft hovering above the treetops that he says is Vanta Black. And it's like, he calls it blacker than black. And it's above the tree-tops. And he starts to close in on that craft with his Marines because they're like, what the hell is going on here? then they get apprehended by this elite paramilitary unit, which in like, I think it was 2009,

like they had like bioscanters and like all sorts of gear you would never expect that. Like they were clearly and they were very well trained, probably Tier 1 special forces. And we're kind of running circles around these Marines saying stuff like, it's easy to get lost in the woods or it's easy to get lost in the jungle, you know, like, well, you know. Did these guys say they were part of any specific branch of the military or were they, did they have any like badging on them? It was completely nondescript, but very advanced, according to Herrera. So private. Maybe. Yeah.

And they were loading these crates onto this flatbed, this truck. It was like a Ford F-250 or something. And he was like, I don't know what the crates were or whatever. And so Barber, he's at this disclosure event where Herrera is giving this account. And Herrera also gets interviewed by Sean Ryan as well. and Barber's like I could see the authenticity in Herrera and I you know what am I doing here sort of thing and there are other reasons I guess Barber felt like he was betrayed by his you know contractor in the past and at that moment he goes like fuck this I'm gonna like red team the red team or I'm

gonna like red team you know the I'm gonna I'm gonna talk to these guys earnestly yeah I'm gonna side up with you know the Herreras of the world and try to see if we can get you know some of these truths out um and so he backchained he talks to herrera and he says that the crates actually had people in them in indonesia and that these crates were bringing back these psionic assets that are used for the ufo program to attract ufos and so it's this crazy story sionic assets meaning like 11 from stranger things they're trying to find girls like they're like young children people that had superpowers. I don't know what age.

Again, there are stories that like really match stranger things as far as the ages of the people being recruited into the programs and that gets into some weird, weird shit. And so I don't know what age these people were because they were in these like metallic containers and they were being evacuated from the area. I mean, even the fact that they're being kept in the metallic containers is weird, right? Rear also said there was they were trying to get homosexual people. That's apparently this thing, apparently gay men and people who are left-handed. Yeah.

And again, this is something I just, I have no idea if that's how true that is. But that's part of it. I'm trying to think through the logistics of that. You're in an earthquake zone where there was a crazy natural disaster. People are like, I don't know if they speak English, right? Or the other guy speak Indonesian. Right. But like, where they like raise your hand if you're homosexual or like, are you left-handed or right-hand?

Like how are you doing this? Are you just bulk gathering these people and then figuring it out later? I don't know and it's it's there's another question is like were they engaging in operations and did they have to evacuate because of the tsunami or were they take and this is the way Herrera presented on Sean Ryan, which is more nefarious honestly where it's like are you taking advantage of the fact that there's a disaster zone and people could go missing? Yeah. And taking them back with you which is like weird. Of course they would be. Why wouldn't they be? Well, it's a question of like were those. people already like willfully signed up for the program they were attracting stuff in the jungle of indonesia that's why the the the black craft was there i guess the black craft i think was human so so i take that back but like maybe that was part of the operation but like so yeah they were like engaging in operate field operations there or was where you just the operation itself was to round up these people who are lost that that's the question that i got was that i mean just from watching your podcast the impression i got was that they saw there was a disaster there and and thought this would be an opportunity to extract some people we can use.

So I want to talk to Herrera. I'm not 18 anymore. I'm working, raising two kids, and I have little free time. That's why I chose University of Phoenix. I take one class at a time and log in on my schedule. University of Phoenix built for real life. Get started at phoenix.edu. And I want to get to the bottom of it.

He says that on the Sean Ryan podcast. Yeah. But Barber says on my podcast, or they were engaging in operations and they had to get the hell out of Dodge because the tsunami was coming. So. Barber also seemed very off put about Sean Ryan and Herrera saying that they were just going there to exploit the disaster and get those people out. He seemed kind of like, right. He's like, I didn't like the Sean Ryan even used the word human trafficking.

Right, right, right, right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. So, yeah, I don't know. I don't know the, kind of ground truth on that. But so, so he's saying that they're people, that these people are being taken from this place in Indonesia. And my. assessment my guess is that like these people are are more in tune to nature they're not around technology and civilization so jake said that they he said that on your podcast maybe they have a different diet they're not eating processed garbage so that would automatically give them let them be tapped into this muse or this consciousness or whatever it is well that's what they say in the u.s too like you know you have dulce you know new mexico you have Tacoma washington

You have Skinwalker Ranch. All of these are ancient Native American lands. And apparently that's where a lot of this kind of weird stuff shows up. Skinwalker Ranch, we know, is professionally, you know, as part of UFO research efforts, investigated as part of ASAP from 2007 to 2012. And so I think both, like, the people are like, it's just like, you know, if you go to, like, you know, most indigenous tribes, you talk about people from the stars. You're not going to freak them out.

Like they're going to be kind of familiar with those concepts. I'm like, yeah, we come down during our ceremonies, you know. It's both, I think for the people, it's like they have less of like an allergic reaction because they haven't been indoctrinated with this materialist, reductionist, Western paradigm, where we even need the idea of disclosure. Like for them, it's like second nature or whatever. Yes, exactly. And then also the land itself, which then you're getting into like trip of your territory

as to is there a residue on the places themselves that we're like more kind of strange stuff goes on. Like I would say yes. Like I think a lot of this stuff that goes on at Skinwalker Ranch is genuinely not, you know, we need to explain it via science. But it's weird. It's definitely weird. Like I don't think that that show, you know, the secrets of Skinwalker Ranch. Yeah, it might be like, you know, you know, the noise effects probably do it a disservice. And you've got that kind of history channel thing. But like, yeah, it's produced. It's produced. But like, I don't think they're lying about a lot of that stuff. And if you, again, if you just investigate the, you know, first principles, like, what's happening there, it's pretty weird.

It is. So. The cattle mutilation thing, though, that they talk about on Miragemen. Yeah. Is fascinating. Yeah. What's your take there? Oh, I mean, it just seems like a perfect distraction or just a sciop, right?

I mean, but it was all, well, they, it seemed like an unintended sciop that worked perfect for them, right? Because I guess there was some sort of, they were trying to prospect for oil, I think. it was. There was a company that was trying to find oil by detonating an underground nuclear bomb. Uh-huh. And they were trying to test the local agriculture and wildlife to see how far the contamination went in the soil. Yep. So they were trying to find, like, they were extracting the glands of these cows to see if they had been affected by this radiation or whatever, see if there was contamination. And that happened to be the same place that they were flying this crazy exotic stuff. And so the people were like, oh my God, we're seeing UFOs and these cows are looking like this.

Like it must be, they must be them doing this. So it's like, now, okay, that's the perfect place to keep doing these test flights. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah, yeah. That was super interesting to learn about that and to see how like, you know, just like two operations collide and end up being the perfect fucking mind fuck for the public to like make sure people don't know what's going on. 100%.

100%. No, and that movie's super important to realize how sophisticated. A lot of the Psiops can be in this, like, you can, you know, write scripts and back rooms and, like, make everything kind of weave together and fit. But, like, the, A, could, you know, be a data point. B could be a data point. They could be look completely uncorrelated, but, like, you're the source of both or whatever, you know. And, like, that's definitely a thing you have to look out for in this world for sure. So going back to Barber, he was saying that there was a secret place where they were trying to use these people. that they captured and give them drugs

and get them to summon these UFOs. Yeah, stress inoculation and dissociation. And yeah, it's like weird, yeah. And I think people who've had trauma in their past, I guess, are predisposed. All of this seems a little greater- way-preding. It was dopamine-ergic drugs that they were giving them.

Yeah, that might make sense. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, again, this is not based on first-hand knowledge so I don't I don't know yeah this is also this is all like super super speculative but I also like so I'm in the camp where I believe the summoning stuff is very real and very dangerous and the I I feel pretty like you know like I think Jake barber's story is like pretty beyond reproach actually on that like surface level details of it and then where I mean by that what do you

mean it's beyond report like you you think it's super legit I think it's super legit yeah I do where I get worried about what might be an after effect is this idea of like summoning things into your purview. I think that stuff's really real. And I think it's dangerous. I don't think it's for the, you know, I think you have to have very pure intentions. And I think if you show up in certain places and you try to, you know, do these things, I think that's, it's very, it's very, it could end very badly for, for people. So, and I think it's the reason you have all this stuff, at Skinwalker Ranch where like often it's guys with big egos or whatever it's like they have the story of this like hell's angels chieftain who like you know uh goes there and he's like put into a

catatonic state like on the mesa or whatever and then he has to go he's in the hospital for three weeks after that and uh so i think it's i think it's kind of dangerous to do some of this stuff if you're not doing it safely and and and honestly with it just pure intentions what's the danger I don't you know have you uh you've had dana pasolka on right yeah okay so like you remember the story with st francis of assisi no so okay so he's this you know um he's actually kind of grows up like kind of this popular guy and um you know he's kind of you know life of the party kind of guy and then uh you know he becomes a brother and he's you know in a monastery and he starts to become more religious and he's on Mount Laverne and he's hiking with his confidant brother Leo who like records all

the stuff that happens to him and uh he basically has a an encounter with an angel and the angel burns him and basically you know oh i remember this now it gives him you know what he calls this he says it's like a vision of christ but if you actually go back to the original translation which pesalka did it's a flaming torch and language was it uh remember it was heb or greek no it must been a Latin. Oh, Latin. Yeah. I think so.

Medieval Italy. Yeah, yeah, probably Latin. Okay. So St. Francis of Assisi was when, like in medieval time? 13th century, I think. 13th. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. So, like, the subplot of the whole thing with St. Francis of Assisi is, like, he has basically electromagnetic radiation damage, and he calls it the stigmata, and he says it's a vision of Christ. But, like, it's probably what you would say is, just electromagnetic radiation now, and he dies from this stuff. And if you look at the files given to Gary Nolan on people who've had, you know, paranormal, you know, it basically encounters with UFOs and with, you know, alien beings, it's often electromagnetic damage and, you know, ultraviolet burns.

And, you know, I think some of these truths have been disseminated through fiction. If you watch closest counters of the third kind, the guy has a sunburn after he sees a UFO. And I think Steven Spielberg definitely has some spooky sources. And he has across the years. And so, I think calling these things into your, I think there are two things that attract this stuff, nuclear and certain states of consciousness. And the latter is going to, you know, give a lot of people, you know, an allergic reaction if you're coming from kind of like a, you know, more Western materialist, reductionist, you know, academia, you know, that's where you're coming from. But I do believe that's part of it. And calling these things into your purview can be very dangerous, all the files. that Nolan looked at and all of what happened to you know st francis of assisi and i think

as with all of this stuff there's a left-hand path and there's the right way to do it and the left-hand path is basically a cult stuff it's like trying to summon stuff and you're gonna get burned it's it's like it's a typical every myth whether it's lord of the rings faust prometheus it always ends badly we've seen this movie before if you want the secret knowledge and you don't have the right you know pure intention in your heart you're just going to get burned because What you see will be an excavation of what's inside of you. I mean that. So you're saying that, first of all, when it comes to Gary Nolan,

he was looking at people who, these people that he studied, people that got injured and or died. Yep. Right, after having radiation poisoning or something like this from these things. Those people, how were they getting in contact with that? with these things. Were they summoning them? So that's a total black box. I don't know. I have no idea.

But I just think coming into contact with them. It's like, you know, the legend, I'm not saying the Ark of the Covenant is real, but this is a good analogy. It's like, you know, the holiest of holies. If you don't go in with a pure heart, it's going to be bad for you. I think if you're dealing with this other world, it's going to, you know, kind of see you from the inside and out. And it's going to be very bad for you.

a few. It's a classic myth and I think it's and I think it's it's not just myth. I think it's very real. I think we live inside of a cave basically and that cave is our kind of perceptive epistemology. And if you want to see something that's outside of the cave, you can ask for it and it can come. And you're going to get, you know, hit like a load of bricks if you ask with the wrong intention. What you're describing sounds a lot like a psychedelic trip. It's the exact, it's very similar because if you go into a psychedelic trip, and you have a lot of ego going in, you're going to get smashed.

Yeah. It's going to excavate, but it's not necessarily bad for you. It'll excavate what's inside of you often. But it needs to be done in a way that, like, you can handle. And honestly, I don't believe in psych. That's why I don't believe in, like, I believe in, like, veterans who are, like, on their last legs

who need to take, like, Ibegain. Or, like, of course, like, you know, or like, you know, mushrooms or whatever. But, like, this, like, oh, let's just, like, you know, willy-nilly do this recreationally? I don't think that's going to be good at all. The veil, we haven't, it's definitely not for everybody.

It's not. We have the veil for a reason. You don't want to unveil everything all at once. Right. And so I do believe that we have a very limited scope. We only see between 400 and 700 nanometers on the electromagnetic wave spectrum. You know, our decibel range that we hear is limited.

Like the idea that like there's nothing outside of what we see is ridiculous. And then you have people like Donald Hoffman, cognitive psychologist, just showing that what we see are basically like icons of reality. Like they are categorizations of reality. Like you're not seeing electromagnetic wavelengths. You're not seeing the waves themselves. You're seeing this table, right? Because you need to instantly categorize things.

So the idea that we are seeing ground reality is crazy. And then the idea that physics is the end of history is also crazy. Like our consciousness definitely plays a part in what we're seeing. You say you've experienced synchronicities all the time. Yeah, yeah. You're basically admitting that your personal epistemology is out of step with the Western materialist dogma. You're admitting that and saying that. And maybe you're saying, I don't know, it could be like the pattern matching of my mind or whatever.

But if you like get down to it with most people, they're like, yeah, a bunch of shit happened to me. That's like beyond chance and probability. And there's probably something with your consciousness that affects the material world or whatever. So I think it's not beyond the pale to say, like, if you want to experience something paranormal, you probably will. if you like, you know, do certain things. And doing that in a reckless way is very bad. And doing that, honestly, it's the whole issue, I think, with the UFO thing. Like, the whole context of this conversation is around weaponization of this stuff.

Yeah. And in certain cases, I always, like, my rallying cry is like, it's actually bad for national security because, like, I want the powers that be to let more out. So that's like, I'll say that, right? Like, it's bad for national security. If the left hand isn't talking to the right hand. hand and like Russia and China have their own UFO programs and they're like beating us. But my motivation is not weaponizing these things. Like I just I kind of want to like poke the bear

a little so they like let more out. Yeah. Because they're holding on to a lot of stuff. But the whole, the fact that all this whole conversation is couched in like how can we build weapons out of the like this like metamaterial that like is like manna from heaven is so perverse and fucked. Yeah. And so like my whole goal like to the extent that I ever do anything in a capitalist context with the UFOs stuff. It's I want civil side infrastructure updates in our cities to make our lives better. And I want more meaning in the world in people's individual lives. And if I can do that and have top cover from national security people who are like, yeah, if you find something dual use, we'll take it to the back room and work on it, fine.

I'm cool with protecting the free world and making sure we're ahead of China and Russia. but the whole idea that like people's impetus into this topic like the fact that they're into it is just like let's weaponize this like immediately is so fucked like you don't know what you're dealing with it probably is angels and that's the whole reason that we have everything that we have is I mean the most absurd and mind-blowing science and technology that we have was literally created in the context of war like John Ron Neumann like you were saying the brain power of that motherfucker yeah like was literally

used and monopolized for war. Like, I think, I think it was him. Was, I think he was the one that calculated the exact elevation that the fat man, little boy nukes needed to be to cause the most civilian casualties. Like he, he estimated the exact elevation they needed to detonate those at. Jesus.

To kill the most people. It's death. It's death. Yeah. It's so, yeah, I didn't even know that's, that's crazy. Yeah. That's brilliant. I mean, in Annie Jacobson's Pentagon Brain book, all about the history of DARPA, Fuck, wow, dude, one of the most insane books. Yeah, that's an amazing book. That's one of my favorite books. She's amazing.

What, like, an epic chronicler of just... I love her, man. Yeah. And her voice got, the voice. She's a great voice. She's a great voice. The best voice. The best voice.

She does. So seductive. So funny. Yeah, she's awesome. But, yeah, no, I don't know how, I don't like going to what you're saying. I don't know how you break out of that, right? Like how do you break out of that? That's the way the world works.

Yeah. That's the way the world works. The main motivation for technological innovation is for superpowers to maintain their power and to gain more power. Well, I think, I mean, again, this requires a predisposition to some pretty trippy kind of ontological worldviews. But I think the veil is dropping. I think like we're seeing more of this stuff now. And it might be because we're not being super responsible with our world. We live in this multipolar nuclear world.

And you're right to the extent we have access to anything off the books of celestial origin or whatever. We're weaponizing it immediately. And things are just not good on a global scale right now. So I think what we might be seeing is kind of intervention a la the three body problem or UFOs and nukes with Robert Hastings. Where if you talk to any of these guys, any of the ICBM security personnel, any of these people who have, you know, first-hand witnesses, their first instinct is always, they're trying to tell us to, like, stop our way, you know, to, like, you know, hang back and, like, not destroy ourselves. So, and then you can get into the Mike Masters things where it's like, you know, is it some

future version of humanity that is coming back in time trying to protect, sustain the existence of the human timeline because, like, we're going to blow ourselves up. Yeah. And who would care more than the future version of ourselves? It's like in Back to the Future where it's like, you know, Marty goes back in time because he wants his parents, you know, to be together. Yeah. And what Mike says about that the pedomorphism thing that happens,

how our ancestors, that when the adults look more like the children of our descendants. Yep. It's crazy. And that's like all the depictions of the aliens look like children. Yeah, that's right. So in 500,000 years, fully grown adults are going to look more like the toddlers of today. If you were to ask any conventional biologist, like somebody who doesn't believe in aliens,

what will humanity look like in a few thousand years? You'd say, okay, humans are getting domesticated, so we're losing the melanin in our skin. So it's getting kind of more pale. Our brains are becoming selected for because of more white-collar work. So cranial size gets much bigger. Nose and ears, they don't matter so much because, you know, we're not hunter-gathering. Right. Yes, there is pedomorphosis, there's neotony.

we retain the larval features of like young people in our, you know, basically like your kids are going to look like what your ancestors look like in the future. Right. And we're becoming domesticated. A dog is to a wolf. What we will look like, you know, in the future is to us. Right. And so I think, yeah.

And then if you look at like all the databases around UFO abductions, over 50% in almost all cases are hominid creatures. Yeah. And then you think the likelihood of evolutionary convergence on Zeta Retic. Prachma Centauri of them looking like hominid beings. What are the chances their atmosphere, their gravity, their solar system, everything, like, were they water worlds? I know most of the Gaudilocks planets that we've discovered have been water worlds, if I'm not

mistaken. So like if they evolved in a world that was mostly water. Yeah, it wouldn't look anything like us. Are they going to have a brain that is directly on top of the head? You have 8 million species on Earth and you have like 20 upright hominid, you know, and then you have like one like us or whatever. So you're saying like a gray looks exactly like us. It doesn't make any...

That blew my mind the most out of that book as how rare we are as a species, homo sapiens on planet Earth, which is a planet that's teeming with fucking life. Yes. And how few planets that we've discovered that are habitable of life. And how much...

He was basically saying it's like, we are 0.001% of the species on this earth. So if you extrapolate that out into the universe and how many planets are able to inhabit life, what's the chance they're going to look like us, like that accurate. Yeah. Yeah. It seems almost like impossible.

Yeah. No, it's the, exactly. It's the likelihood. And if you're seeing a thing in your neighborhood, it's more likely to be related. Think about like North Sentinel Island is off the coast of India. And they never get visited occasionally by missionaries and they'll kill the missionaries. Right. And they probably think when people visit them, like, you know, you're just some white dude and you like show up there.

They'd be like, you're an alien. Because they don't know the rest of the world exists. But if you see a thing in your neighborhood and it looks like you, it's probably an extension of you. It's probably related to you. That's just kind of Occam's Razor. And then we have 20 billion, you know, Earth-like planets in the, you know, Milky Way Galaxy. So people love to say that. But then you have over a trillion non-Earth-like planets.

So again, the likelihood that you are seeing a thing in your neighborhood that looks like you doesn't only look like you. It looks like what you probably are going to look like in a certain amount of time from a conventional evolutionary biology perspective. Yeah. I love the Mike Masters thesis as a result of that. Where I think Mike, where I would disagree with him or where I think he might fall slightly short and he would probably admit this because, again, he's done amazing foundational work is like, I don't know if it's us from the future. I think we might be stuck in a timebound reality where we're subject to Zeno's arrow of time, where we are kind of indelibly, permanently moving forward in Zeno's era of time. and they have some ability to do trans temporal stuff where they can time travel.

And so you get into all these weird questions of like if time travel is future is possible at any point in the future, which he's saying it is, right, with his book, because they're saying they're coming back in time. They wouldn't be able to go back past when that time machine was created.

Is that right? That's right. Then it's always been inherently available. If time travel is available at any point in the future, it's always been available inherently. Right. So that means time travel would have had been figured out somewhere else in the universe.

Yes, that's right. And so then you get to, get into these questions of like you have the angels and demons ontology and you have the human future time travel to ontology i think a really valid you know use of like a think tank would be like how do those two things comport are these ascended humans that have trans temporal capabilities time travel capabilities um that are like the next step on the evolutionary chain and but like saying future is kind of a misnomer because in their paradigm time doesn't even exist the way it exists in ours Right.

So, I don't know, you get into all sorts of, like, crazy rabbit holes. But what I love about that book is it's just, it's very scientific, it goes through cases, and it goes through data to the extent we have data. Unfortunately, the data is kind of scant, but it goes through the data, and it just makes a very compelling ground-up argument for why time travel is involved and why they're related to humans and not just, you know. The time dilation paradox thing is really interesting, too. Like how he said, I love the part where he's talking about, like, if we, We sent some interstellar crew out into the universe to find another planet or whatever. He's like 20 years of their rocket time would be like 100,000 years of our time here on Earth.

Totally. So by like 20 years into their trip, we would have figured out technology on Earth to be able to blow past them. And like he's like 20 years into their trip, we're going to have people from Earth passing them. And they just left that morning with the belly full of breakfast. And they're like, what the fuck? We waste our entire lives on this. Like, uh-huh. That's an interesting paradox, too.

Oh, it's a fascinating one. Any of the whole planet of the apes? Yeah, it's like, time itself is very weird. In general relativity, you have time dilation, which we just described, the twin paradox, all that stuff. And then in quantum stuff, I don't think we quite understand time. We take it as like this formal axiom in Schrodinger's equation. But it's actually kind of really weird.

And like time and gravity are coupled in general relativity. The closer you get to a gravitational source, time slows. And in quantum stuff, we can't figure out gravity. That's this big field of quantum gravity, which is turned into string theory, which is just like we've never been able to solve for gravity. We never been able to, you know, fully, you know, figure that out. I love that documentary you did too with Eric Weinstein and Al put off. Yeah, yeah. Like string theory is some limited hangout or something to basically distract everything.

Eric makes that proposition. He goes, I don't know. He goes, if you were trying to limit the physics, string theory would be a pretty good way to do it, which that gets beyond me. Okay, is string theory this like padded walls, 2D version of the real physics that they have in the back room? And it's just this like initiation recruitment thing, but it's like less dangerous. I don't know if you can do that deliberately. That seems like maybe like beyond human coordination abilities. It gets beyond. my physics knowledge and Eric might be able to speak to that more in a more sophisticated way as to like why that might even be possible but crazy thing that he said that really that really that really resonated with me in that video was he was like look at the civil war in 1860 and less than a human lifetime later we figured out the fucking atom bomb yeah yeah yeah how to drop an atom bomb out of a plane in less than a hundred years less than a hundred years less than a hundred years I mean So like just the understanding of physics

How that changes Changes our world And our technology And our civilization We were using muskets And yeah Dude from muskets to nukes To nukes

And if you take the three body problems Seriously where you have the Fermi paradox Where it's like Can you explain the three body problem For people who might not comprehend it These tri-Colarian aliens that like We've been in contact with

It takes place actually originally in the cultural revolution in China. And you have all these like scientists getting kind of like stamped out or whatever. And then you have modern scientists that are making contact with aliens. And often it's in these extremely advanced science projects like particle accelerators at places like CERN. And they're getting all sorts of like interesting comms from the aliens. And the tricelarian aliens are like in touch with the government. And they're like, you cannot tell the populace that we are in.

touch with you because it's going to like kind of you know it's going to tip off mass hysteria so we have to like slowly infiltrate ourselves which is by the way very similar to arthur c clark's amazing book childhoods end and i think this idea that like an alien civilization is slowly insepting itself is very popular and actually probably a good answer to the you know fermi paradox if you were incredibly sophisticated you wouldn't show up as this foreign invader hominid you would just and sept yourself, you'd create hybrids, you'd do genetic experiment, you do all sorts of stuff. So what were we just talking about? Why did I bring up the three-body problem? Do you remember? I forgot.

Oh, we're talking about muskets to nukes. Yeah, to nukes. So like, if you take the three-body problem, like in the three-body problem, there's this dark forest analogy. And it's like the universe could be teeming with life. And it could be adaptive from the perspective of an alien race to not show themselves to you. Because there's, worried that you're going to kill them or like going to harm them and why would they care until you start creating nukes or like certain things that like maybe you reach a certain level of consciousness maybe you create a nuke maybe it's high energy physics and maybe it's certain people reaching certain levels of consciousness and then all of a sudden they make themselves known

where it's like you're living you you're living in this time bound simulation and you're poking at the edges of the simulation you can do it with consciousness you do with high energy physics and you know here we are like trying to like you know guard guard the simulation and like make sure you're not going to like mess anything up in a big way and so i think that's actually a very good answer to the fermi paradox is like why don't they show themselves well it's actually like probably evolutionarily adaptive for them to not show themselves it like makes more sense that they wouldn't in many ways yes yes yeah that does make a lot of sense So you think, what are your thoughts on the whole string theory thing?

Do you think that it's like, I know Eric's like gone off the rails with it. He says, Mujukaku's out of control. Yeah. Talk to Mijukaku. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm on Eric's side. Like, I think clearly it doesn't work. And like it doesn't take Eric or any physicist, like you or me can say it doesn't work.

Like, name me like a piece of technology that's come from string theory. Right. Can't name anything, unfortunately. name me something that's come from quantum field theory like semiconductors like a third of our economy quantum field theory so yeah so it's like one thing is like this you're lost and like science

is the map and not the territory in my belief so yes like my metaphysical world view is more like Plato like it's like there's something beyond us that's true it exists in the world of like forms and ideas but like when it comes to science I'm more kind of Aristotelian in that what is useful is true and the quantum

stuff is eminently useful. If you want the most accurate sensor, it's a quantum sensor, if you want the best computer, you know, eventually it'll be a quantum computer, you know, quantum stuff just seems to work incredibly well, especially at like lower scale, subatomic scales. And it's really useful from an engineering standpoint. And string theory is just basically trying to force fit what describes our kind of cosmological worldviews of general, with general relativity. And quantum field theory force fit them with math. And so you have a map here that's not, the map is not the territory.

So you have stuff that you can do cool things with, with quantum field theory. You have some stuff you can do cool things with general relativity. Neither are descriptors of the underlying reality. So the maps are going to be a little jagged and off. String theory is like you have these jagged off maps that aren't perfect. And you are forcing them together with math. Like it doesn't take a genius,

like you or I could look at that and be like, that's the wrong approach. Yeah. It's just the wrong approach. So that's the way I look at it from like a more high level perspective as to like, you know, whether it's some limited hangout. There are all these really interesting things I've uncovered with. So the people that funded quantum gravity were, you know, it was like initially kind of

established at this Chapel Hill conference at University of North Carolina in 1957. And it was this guy Agnew Bonson and he was obsessed with gravity. And he... Wasn't there also a guy named DeWitt and then... Bryce DeWitt? Yeah, Institute of Field Physics was Bonson's outfit and Bryce DeWitt was his chief theoretical physicist. And he's basically convening the top physicist in the world at the time. I don't think anybody would argue with this.

Like John Wheeler, Peter Bergman, you know, Freeman Dyson, like these legends. And they're all trying to figure out why gravity breaks down, you know, at subatomic scale. So like why gravity doesn't work with... quantum stuff. And that establishes the field of quantum gravity from which you could say string theory is like a later offshoot, right? This is the crazy part. Bonson in the back room is funding Townsend Brown. And in my opinion, I've uncovered all sorts of stuff as to why Townsend Brown experimentally is figuring out real physics and is using these capacitors with high voltage experimentation in a way that ostensibly seems to create some sort of connection between

electromagnetism and gravity, which, again, if you were to talk to any conventional physicist, they'd be like, if you can experimentally do that, that is crazy. Leads to all sorts of amazing possibilities. Propulsion, comms, whatever. And so I think Bonson was like funding some like, you know, back of the house research with this guy Townsend Brown, who was, according to a couple of books, this guy, Paula Villalette, he was maybe even at the Chapel Hill Conference. And the thing about Brown is he was never an amazing theoretician.

He was more of an experimentalist. He was more of a Tesla type. And he actually wasn't like traditionally super credentialed. But he had theories around what he was doing. And I think he was kind of breaking physics. And there are all these kind of credible witnesses who saw what he was doing and were freaked out. Edward Teller was one of those witnesses. He freaked out.

Curtis LeMay witnessed his experiments. And so, you know, I think he was doing some really. interesting off the book stuff and then meanwhile academic physics is being sent into a cul-de-sac being sent into a dead end is that incidental and emergent i don't know i'm not i don't know how conspiratorial to be about that but it's fascinating yeah um jeremy riss was explaining to me alien scientist yeah yeah he does great work on the he's like a fucking historian on this anti-gravity history he really is yeah the the amount of knowledge he has is unimaginable oh yeah but like i think he was explained to to me that DeWitt and Witten were both working on this stuff previous to that North Carolina

summit event or whatever. Yeah. So, yes. So, okay, and then here's the interesting string theory connection. Lewis Witten was the representative of that conference from RIAS, which is Martin Corporation's anti-gravity research group. And so Martin corporation is pre-Lockied merger. So it's like the original Lockheed Martin has like an anti-gravity research group.

Lewis Witten is researching gravity. And he even says this. There's a video online where he goes, I was meant to research gravity, and Wright Field told me to research gravity. The whole conference is sponsored by Wright Airfield. That's crazy. Which is the epicenter of all UFO lore.

Bryce DeWitt almost worked at RIAS as well. And then he ended up at the Institute of Field Physics. There are all these interesting aerospace connections. John, there was so much, it was so bound up in aerospace that John Wheeler would complain at, like, how, like, tied to aerospace and anti-gravity. He kept being like, you know, all this talk of anti-gravity, it's just too much. Like, we have to figure this out in like a serious academic way.

Yeah. But that just shows you the prevailing ethos of, you know, the place itself. And so it's really fascinating. Wright Field had its own, this guy named Josh Goldberg, who was a PhD from Syracuse, and they were systematically studying anti-gravity. Anti-gravity in the 50s was, you know, Lewis Whitten even says this, in the wind, meaning it was everywhere. But it also, the other meaning of in the wind, it's a spy.

term that could mean in the dark. And so it's really interesting. Like that could be some double meaning there. So the tie between quantum gravity and string theory is Lewis Witten's son is a guy named Ed Witten. Yeah. Ed Witten is the number one string theorist, you know, in the world bar none. And this is the guy that Eric was talking about on the Joe Rogan podcast saying this guy is like untouchable. Yeah. I'm so scared. Michael Jordan. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I'm so intimidated by this guy's intelligence. Yeah, exactly. Like alien level. Yeah, exactly. So that's Ed Witten. So that's the son of the guy studying anti-gravity with Martin Corporation and establishing quantum gravity, which is this cul-de-sac. So, like, your son is, like, the king of the cul-de-sac.

And, like, maybe there's some interesting updates going on in the back of the house with guys like Townsend Brown, who also has a work history at Martin Corporation. He joined Martin Corporation in 1943 or two or three right when skunk work starts. The same year, skunk work starts. So some interesting, weird connections there. A lot of smoke. I don't have fire. So this Lewis Witten fella, has anyone talked to him? Have you ever talked to him?

Has Eric ever talked to him? He is, I think, 99 years old or something. It's like, say, it's like in so, he's super old. And I have a friend who has corresponded over email with him. And as soon as he said, you know, hey, I want to get into the anti-gravity stuff, the line went dark. And he stopped responding emails. I make of it that we've made updates and. the world of gravity that are off the books and not any you don't even need me to say this like like

the national science foundation is now coming out with these podcasts talking about extended electrodynamics and literally scientific frameworks that if I were to say this a year to go to you you'd be like that's quacky that doesn't make any sense and like this was relegated to like zero point energy conferences in the southwest like that you know some crystal healer would tell you about extended electrodynamics and you'd be like okay yeah go yeah but it's being vindicated as real. And electrogravetics being vindicated. A lot of people who are high up have kind of like,

hey, you're kind of on to things, some things with this stuff. And I just interviewed Carl Nell, who's the Army representative for the UAP Task Force, worked alongside Grush, extremely smart. Was the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman. Part of what the argument I made in my Townsend Brown documentary is that some of this gravity, you know, interesting gravity stuff made it into the B2 stealth bomber.

Some of Brown's work. This is like the ion, wind stuff like the yes somehow because it looks like the the stealth bombers they look like they defy gravity because they don't look built like they're like unless they have some super powerful jet engines the the the uh which they do but most legendary air airspace journalist in uh the uk was a guy named bill gunston and he's writing a survey level overview of all aerotech you know arrow engine technology since World War II. And he gets to the B2

South Bomber and he says I do not wish to reside in the Tower of London so I will refrain from talking about clever wings with leading edges charged to millions of volts positive with trailing edges charged to millions of volts negative. He's talking about the B2 stealth bomber. And

aerospace or aviation week Aviation Week, Bill Scott, another amazing aviation journalist. He says, you know, when the B2 gets revealed, you know, early 90s, he's like, the B2 surfs its own wave and he uses a Biff Brown effect. Some people even think B2 stands for Bifield Brown. Wow. And so the majority owner of Northrop, where the B2 came from, Northrop Grumman. So this is pre-merger with Grumman. The majority owner or the majority investor, rather, was a guy named Floyd. Odlem. He's a lawyer. He's a financier for an aerospace. He's funding Brown's research in Santa Monica.

And the research fails, quote unquote, in 67. Then in 68, three months later, because the end of 67, early 68, they published a paper, Northrop saying, we are looking into electro-aerodynamics. And it's this paper that was archived in the American Institute of Astronautics and Aeronautics, aeronautics and astronautics. And that paper just goes missing. And so they retract that. that paper and say, oh, there's nothing to see here or whatever. And then a couple of decades later, the B2 stealth bomber gets revealed. So it's like, you tell me. Like, I think there's a there.

Fucking hey, dude. So, so, so basically in the 50s before that conference in North Carolina, like the idea is that, or what Eric was speculating is a possibility that this stuff just went dark and got captured by these aerospace companies. And like, they came up with a plan to basically like, deceive the public, send the public down the string theory rabbit hole and take all the stuff that DeWitt and Witten and Brown were doing and make this part of this secret black project stuff. I think it's hard to say whether we just had updates in topological physics and experimental physics

and we figured out some anomalies and like locally useful frameworks where it's like we know how this works in the context of a single, you know, of this stealth aircraft. But like how generalizable that gets, like how much. you can do with that? I don't know. It's total black box to me. And I don't know how coordinated the sequestering of that. There's a ton of smoke. There's not a lot of fire. It's just hard to say. And then you can either say it was like sequestered by, you know, just humans, you know, where it's like you need top side science. You need black side science or whatever, which we definitely have. I mean, that's ridiculous to say we don't. Even like, you know, Mark Andreessen and Ben Horowitz,

I think we're at the White House and like some National Security Council person was like, yeah, we're going to like regulate AI just like we regulated physics in the past. Physics? You're talking about physics? So like this has definitely been done. The idea that it hasn't been done is absurd. Yeah. And so is that coordinated on a human level?

Do you believe the three body problem stuff where the aliens are controlling the way science emerges to begin with? Right. And like are they like playing deceptive tricks on our top scientists and then like inspiring other scientists? Like they don't know you get into these like crazy questions. I don't know how it went down. Have we made updates in science in the black? Yeah. Like you watch my Townsend Brown documentary, I think it's hard to come out of it being like this stuff is fake.

Like if you actually like ingest the details, it's like pretty. Absolutely. Like even may have to think probabilistically, but I'm like 80%? Yeah. Yeah. And then so go back to Jake Barber. So going back to this Jake Barber thing where they're getting these psionic assets from other countries and getting them and putting them in this program using drugs and using protocols to get them to sort of summon these things. He's saying that they're using these people to summon these crafts.

Did he say he had any idea where they were coming from? No, that was, the Jake interview was simultaneously felt historic and epic, and he was so articulate and like such a good, you know, purveyor of, like, so intelligent. So, like, Grush. Yeah, yeah, totally. And then where it was incredibly frustrating, even in a way that, like, grush has, Grush is like can get into the theory and speculation and is like a good fact finder and it felt like with Jake he was just he really wanted to like keep to like the core details of like what he experienced and it it made it it was a little frustrating for me because I think I'm strongest on the theory stuff and like that's I always want to get into that shit and like I understand his position to like not want it you know totally go off the rails and speculate into crazy stuff and then there was some sort of tough book hard drive that was uh held underwater in a glacier lake

and top of a mountain. Yep. Yep. Yep. And he had to like retrieve that. And then they were trying to like sever the hidden like they were trying to like basically get rid of him. And like like because when you're when you're like

sheep dipped like that and you're like director of operations for a helicopter company, there's so much plausible deniability. Your employer can just be like that dude. What do you tell? That guy's crazy. You know? Just like people in the public are now saying, you know, Jake's crazy or whatever. Even if, you know, all these guys with DD-214s and, like, clear history are, like,

coming to back him up. And I think he's totally legit. But, like— Who's backing him up? Yeah, this guy, Don Paul, uh, Don Paul Bales, uh, other guys that Ross Colthart has interviewed. Um, so he's one. Fred Baker is another. Um, John Blitch, I think knows him less well.

Doesn't have like a, you know, as much of a history with him. But he's a, he's a DARPA guy, uh, who's coming. out and he vetted him, I think, on behalf of Grush and some other people to see if he was the real deal. And like, he was like, yeah, this guy's story totally comports with like that world that I've, you know, come to know and research a little bit. So it just seems so crazy to me that they're like we on earth with our motives, our military motives and our financial motives are able to do something as crazy as summons something from another fucking dimension and crash it. Yep. So we can study it.

It feels crazy to me, too. The question that that begets, which I think is really important that we should all question, is like, you hear that we only have, I don't know, 10 to 15 UFOs in our possession, there are any specific hangers or whatever. Or maybe you get one, you know, some people say one to two crashes a year, so that would be, you know, since Roswell, maybe since a little before that, say 120 or whatever, you know, whatever. But if you can, like, summon these things on command, then you'd expect us to have a thousand plus.

If you have a thousand plus, you're going to get leakage. Yes. Right. So, like, it can't be this, like, you put a coin in the slot machine that, you know, the drink comes out sort of vibe. Like, it can't just be this, like, extremely repeatable, predictable thing. Right. It has to be more hard to, you know, successfully do than that.

And so, yeah, there are all these questions that the interview begets that I think people should ask. Because, yeah, I don't know the answer to them. Yeah. And they're, like, why, like, why isn't he or people he knows? or even Greer's people being put in front of Congress and testifying all their stuff. Yeah.

Why are they? Well, Jake, Jake has said I would 100% testify before Congress. And so that, again, that show of confidence, I think, is important, you know, to. Which, look, my guess is Congress has been lied to before. Like, I've been in, like, rooms with Congress, I'm like, God, these guys are so, they're not smart. But, like, but, you know, I think just the fact that he's willing to do that, I think, and go under oath, under, you know, threat of purge.

I think is, you know, a good, a good display. Yeah. So again, I think that the details are, you know, everybody has to think probabilistically, but I think they're, they're, they're, they're pretty solid. And then it's like, and then what, there are so many other questions it begets, where it's like what. Yeah. Yeah, like what you were saying about like, like being afraid to interact with this or try to

interact, try to summon it or try to somehow like do some, one of the CE5 things that that Greer talks about, you know, and one of the things that, um, I think I talked about with Greer was this hitchhiker effect. Yeah. That happens where like, not only can people get damaged or hurt or killed by the radiation or whatever it is that these things have, but like there's some sort of portal that's permanently opened with you if you're able to interact with this stuff or even see it to where now like you have all, you have unlimited access to all this crazy, um, paranormal. stuff. Yeah. Like some of the stuff that you see a skin walker. That's extremely common. Like

everybody's yeah, all the skin walkers is a great example. And in those cases I think it was very negative because again, I think if you're trying to like weaponize this stuff, it explains yeah, these kind of hauntings where these, you know, aerospace practitioners come home and their, their kids and their family get haunted by this stuff. It is like they have like residue. Lou Alizondo always calls it a sticky portfolio. And I think he calls it that for a very specific reason, which is like stuff gloms on to you. Yeah. You know, it's like you stare at the abyss long enough.

The abyss stares back. And I think that's just a truism, especially in this topic. And then what do you make of all like the infighting of all these people? Like, like Elizondo versus Greer versus like you have Elizondo calling Greer a terrorist, I think. Right. Right. And like, you know, and simultaneously these guys are all writing books going on all these podcasts. It's just like, what?

It's weird. and at times I see you know all the infighting and I'm like I'm like tired like I just want like more of like a normal life and like why am I like covering this like it's just so ridiculous it's so easy to get fatigued by it it is

it is I think like the meta sciop would be like you get distracted by this internal drama or whatever and like a rule that I really try to adhere to is I don't go after anybody ad hominem There's like a map that I have of UFO. And like, I should say this for the sake of your audience and my audience. There are people I've interviewed that I suspect have ulterior motives.

I don't call out those ulterior motives because I'm in enough danger seeking truth. And I don't want to, like, I don't want people like specifically coming after me because I'm like fucking with them. Right. Not only that, but there are people with ulterior motives where like we said earlier, there are elements of truth to what they say. and like a lot of what they truth. People can tell the truth in limited ways and have ulterior motives. That's what people don't understand.

So you can sift out valuable stuff. So I think the best way is, you know, just be open, friendly, cool with everybody, you know, I'm cool with, you know, the two guys you just mentioned. I guess we're, I haven't met yet, but like I would be cool with him. You know, I'm just,

I just try to have like an open, honest, fun conversation and then glean out what I think is true. And honestly, ask rhetorical, if there's any untruths, You ask rhetorical questions that like show on the face of it that like there's something kind of going on here. But like you don't have to call it out directly because it's just you're just going to end up in some fucking food fight on Twitter and it's going to waste your time. And you're not going to get closer to the truth that way. Right.

You're going to get distracted by like getting into it. The times I feel conflicted about having that predisposition is like I do think there's been like harassment of people and I see it on like Twitter and other places and like that fucks with me because I'm like I want to like come out and defend. you know, uh, uh, uh, anybody who's been harassed just for looking into this stuff. Yeah.

And then, and I, and by the way, I've faced it too. And there's stuff I could tell you that would like, I'll, I could tell you off air that's like, it's like,

it's fucking crazy as far as stuff that's happened come my way. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah. So like that, that riles me up for sure, wanting to defend other people.

Um, but otherwise, man, it's just like, it's a, it's not, it's a fool's errand trying to like get, you know,

come after somebody. Yeah, I agree. You know, so I just, I try to stay like pretty, you know, Switzerland-esque. It seems like you're the closest dude out there to this stuff. Like, you're, it seems like you have, like, flown closer to the sun than anybody. That's not good, man. Anchorist does not, oh, no. Like, the people you know and the circles you run in, like, I mean, I mean, I'm not even just talking about working for Peter Thiel,

but, like, being befriending Grush and, you know, talking to all these. secret aerospace people and getting all this stuff. Like you, your brain, you probably got more of this puzzle put together than most people. I, thank you. I mean,

a hundred percent, you have more of the puzzle than most people that are like in the media doing podcasts. But like, even when it comes to behind the scenes, shit. Thank you for saying that. I don't know if that's a good spot to be in.

Well, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. I'm like, if I'm one of these people or if I'm one of these folks that are in charge of this stuff, I'm going to be maybe trying to get to you and subvert you.

100%. I think I'm being fully tracked at all times. I think every conversation, every text, every interaction. And I think there are insights that I've probably come to

that have been gleaned and taken for, you know, profit or whatever. And, you know, that's kind of weird. But,

like, you got to just kind of ignore it, put your blinders on, keep going. It used to get to me more. And now I just try to, you know, I think if you have pure intentions,

and you're just trying to seek truth, then I think things end well for you carmically, you know? But yeah, for sure, it's a weird spot to be in. I think it is partially because, like, if somebody tells me something and then they say not to say it, like I respect relationships. Like, I don't, if somebody, you know, is providing, you know, is a source for something.

Like, I really, I don't fuck people over. Right. Like, and even, like, I think in the microeconomics of, like, podcasting journalist world it's like some of these people would like push their grandma in front of a moving taxi for a tip you know for a story and it's like I just don't do that shit like I just I uh you know and then if it that cuts against the truth I'm just not going to air it I'm not going to put it out you know but I'll kind of walk away and not touch the fine china and be like I kind of know what you're up to but like I don't want to what you know what would you do if the CIA

came to you Jesse Michaels we need to have a talk we're going to tell you every We're going to give you access to everything, but you need to shut the fuck up. Or you need to just run with the stories that we gave you the green light. Here's the thing. Action of security, Jesse. I think that's a counterfactual. I don't think the CIA has everything. I don't think the government has everything.

And I realize this might be slightly evading your question, but it's like genuinely, I think it's so important to emphasize for people. Like, this is not a file that you can just get. The government has tons of data that like reality is not. not what it seems. They probably have metamaterial. There's probably some biologics. There's probably, you know, there's a lot of stuff that, where they, like, know reality is way weirder than what the average civilian does. And in fact, I think you would say this, too. The closer you get to government circles, the more they're conspiratorial than the average citizen. Like, they're more conspiratorial. So they know that. Does that mean they have, like, an ontological

worldview, a map of what the aliens are, what their intentions are, how many races there are, where they're from or they're interdimensional extraterrests. Absolutely not. I think maybe you get in a certain core circles and areas they have better frameworks than, you know, people on the civil side do. What if it was Battelle that came to you, Jesse Michaels? We need to have a talk, brother. We're going to fund your podcast. Five million dollars a year subsidized by Baton. I would never get like funded if the funding involves like steering the content, like now. If it's like education, and like you know in in order to like tell the truth about something and there was some like public private partnership I would entertain it especially if I could be open to that to the public and I wasn't like lying about that yeah for sure like I don't think like everybody in government's like a bad person or like it's not a monolith right for sure um but yeah no I wouldn't like I wouldn't do some like intentional limited hangout thing yeah yeah it'd be it'd be an interesting bridge to cross if the opportunity of represented itself I always think about that

Is that your pitch, Danny? Yeah. You're like, just hit me up. That's so funny. Yeah, would it matter? Because, I mean, most people online already think that we're a CIA. I know, dude. It's exactly.

Half the people are like, he's a spook and he's funded by Peter Thiel. Yeah, right? Yeah, you're already, you've got an uphill battle. That's an uphill battle for sure, for sure. And like, I don't know. I always just like, okay, don't trust anything I'm saying. Like, fine. And then like the people who do, like you're going to learn a lot of crazy shit because I'm revealing like really crazy shit.

Stuff that I came to on my own. And honestly, I've lost, I put a lot of money like the opportunity cost involved in like going after UFOs. Like I managed like nine figures of capital. Like I was investing a lot of money in a way that would have been like really good for my future. If I wanted like a chill good life, like I had that like set up. Like I easily could have kept going on the path that was going on. do some conventional venture fund. Yeah.

You know, have fucking cocktails at happy hour in L.A. Go to fucking Beverly Hills Hotel and go to Lund. Like, I could have done that. And I decided to go like a way more masochistic route. So it's fine. Like you can call me whatever. But like, trust me, it's not fucking that. Yeah.

How do you have time to do the investing stuff anymore? I honestly don't do that much of it anymore. It's like, yeah, it's like most of what we've done, like I'm managing up on, you know, like existing investments and just making sure they're going well and I'm like in touch with the you know the fund managers that I've sourced as well as the companies themselves and then occasionally if something jumps the bar and feels like a no-brainer I'll do a little bit of I'll do diligence on like you know an early stage thing where it's more qualitative and not quantitative analysis and I'll do a deal but it's like I was deploying

much more money three years ago than I am now so it's just slowed down what is to you what is the absolute spookiest darkest sinister theory about what these things are that you heard that you may not believe but that you've heard that you think may have may have some little bit of merit like the one that you don't want to be true i can't say it really yeah it's too dark yeah it's really fun you can't say it because you'd be betraying somebody or because you just don't want to put it out there i don't put it out there really yeah there are there are well they're probably good factions that are angelic you know to use a simple term and then bad factions that are demonic and then what are the demonic things doing it's like maybe they're mining our

attention, you know, like Robert Monroe, who studied consciousness and, you know, Virginia has this institute, you know, that he started. You like, he had this concept of lusch. And so maybe there's stuff like that going on where, like, when you're in a zombie state, where does your consciousness go? Maybe that's sort of like a mining process. But then you look at like, you know, scapegoating cycles, like pagan scapegoating cycles. And like, I don't know, you get into weird territory and like, it's hard to, I don't know what the darkest, you know, theory is. But I, um, I think, I think the good ones are like don't, don't interfere as much with you. And you're more like you're ascending to their level.

And it's like a two-way bilateral connection where like one of my favorite quotes is the world is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper. And it's like there's once, if you can like increase your own, you know, kind of spiritual sense and your knowledge and you can increase the purity of your intention. I think you get closer to truth around a lot of these things. And I think this idea, this bifurcation, this idea that it's just academic rote knowledge that you have to learn, and then this kind of spiritual sense, like that's totally different. Like your own moral development as a person, I think they go hand in hand.

And I think the more you do that, the more you have synchronities, the more you get in touch, you feel this sort of angelic guidance in your life, the more you feel protected. And so I think whatever's good. is like this kind of non-interferent initiation process. And then the bad stuff, you know, I don't know. In the world in which these beings exist, they're probably behind a whole lot of human affairs and they're probably stoking wars and causing violence and division.

And then you have to ask why, and I don't know. Yeah. Why? Right. Well, I mean, why wouldn't they be like us, right? Why wouldn't there be good versions and bad versions? Totally. Totally.

Yeah, you have good and bad humans. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with that. Have you ever seen a UFO in real life? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Really?

Yeah, I've seen more than one. See, that's the thing that I, I'm kind of like on the fence about. Sure. Because, like, me and you talk about this stuff all the time, but I don't know if I want to have any of these experiences. Yeah. I don't know if I want to actually encounter this kind of shit in real life. I don't know how it would affect me.

I think that's totally valid. And I definitely don't want to have an abduction experience. I actually get everybody at interview who's, had an abduction experience. My buddy from Yes Theory Amar, Candiel, who does a lot of the shows with me, I make him come with me, because he's like this positive energy, like protective

energy bubble, and I'm like, I get spooked. I get freaked. Even with Whitley, I was a little freaked out. Dude, I've never been more terrified. Yeah, and he'll say stuff like, oh, people, he said it with you. I remember he said like people who are with me sometimes have like experiences. And I remember, you're like, oh, yeah, yeah. He's like, it might happen. He was like, absolutely

it'll happen to you. I'm like, please no, please no. He's like, okay, I'll tell him not to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I think Annie Jacobson, when she wrote a great book, The Phenomenon, also I think she was like, she was talking to Jacques Ville and she was like, please, like, don't, don't, I just don't want to get abducted. Like, I'll study this stuff, but yeah, once you start studying this stuff, you, the second you realize like a switch in your brain goes off and you're like, okay, this person's not crazy and they've been abducted, like, this stuff's actually just real.

Then it freaks you out because you're like, uh-oh, am I, you know? Right. I feel that on the abduct. I don't want to get it. abducted man no i don't want to ever see any of these things in my bedroom same same but i do think there's a huge difference between that and like being inspired by some like cool craft in the sky like yeah yeah i think it's and for me that was like a that was like a beautiful like what kind of what did you see exactly although i will say abduction experiences i think over 50% are often described as positive so or over 50% are are are positive at least in the free edgar mitchell study

but oh okay i saw because whitley's is a horror movie yeah i know i know i know And a lot are. And a lot, again, it goes back to that like droid gray thing where it's like, we do not fear, but then they're like bleeding everywhere and they like put a little thing in you and it's like, and they black out. And it's like, oh, God, that doesn't sound good at all. My UFO experience, well, I had two that like really stand out and that are, one was in Laurel Canyon.

And I talked about this on Julian Dory's podcast as well, where it looked, it looked like school bus or something like it was like nothing like prosaically that I ever see and so that's why I'll call it a UFO I don't know you know if it could have been aerospace but it was hovering above the tree tops at like you know 40 50 feet and it was going across the tree tops and then the uh the woman I was with she said that she saw the thing like descend down like across the tree tops in Laurel Canyon I didn't see that but what I saw was like it was like this like kind of tesser like rectangle shaped like school bus like thing that like I've just never seen before ever and was so weird and the way it came about was also weird too because aliens had just come up in our discussion

so it was like one of us was like do you believe in aliens and like and then at some point I was like yeah I'm kind of super into aliens actually I think is really interesting and then I was like I would be interesting to meet an alien and then she goes um it'll come when you least expect it and this is the weirdest part of the stories we walk by a guy who's has a metal detector and it's like sunset a little after sunset or sunset in laurel canyon and it's like why does he have a metal detector he's like looking for something and it says it'll come when you or she said it'll come when you stop looking for it and he's like looking for it's a little weird yeah and that could be again me noticing too many patterns but like um then we walk and we just

see this little clearing and then the thing goes over and i'm like what color was it was a it was gray metallic and uh yeah it was like seemed like like, I don't know, it wasn't making like enough noise where like the amount of weight that it was carrying, like you'd expect like an absurd amount of noise. Yeah. Like Apache level, like 10 Apache level, you know. So it's super, super strange. And it was around a time in my life where I was experiencing a lot of kind of like interesting

synchronities and like things would kind of pop into, you know, that was when I was around the time when I met Diana Posulka actually. And like I started to kind of take, take more of a dive down the, down the rabbit hole. And the other time, I was doing holotropic breathwork and Silver Lake with a friend. A friend who's, I won't out him, but he's a prominent investor who's like as rational as it gets. Like, he's actually really interested in like philosophy and, you know, academic science and stuff. And like the way he described his worldview is like the natural philosophers, like David Hume, he's super into Nome Chomsky. Like he couldn't be more like the material world is what it is.

Like he's kind of like a material world, like a materialist, atheist, you know. and we had just gone surfing and then we're back at his spot in Silver Lake and I wanted to teach him holotropic breathwork which is I love holotropic this is the best and we're doing it and he kind of like five minutes in

like your hands can kind of clam up it's like a common thing and like you get into like an interesting state and all of a sudden he looks up and he's like what is that? Oh my God two metallic orb like one above him one above me they look like they're way too high

to be you know prosaic aircraft i i wouldn't be able to tell you like what you know 60 000 80 000 but like they were high up and they were like bobbing like hovering and uh he go this is so funny like initially he goes i goes what i go what the fuck do you don't think those things are and he goes uh i think that those that must be one of those like deep black you know lockied crafts or whatever and i'm like interesting and then a second later he goes dude those are not like of earth how long it goes this This was 2020

Yeah This is either That was either The The Laurel Canyon one was 2020 That was either 20 or 2021

Okay Either late 2020 Or early 2021 Yeah Holy shit Yeah Yeah That's interesting

The only thing I've ever seen Was with Chris Bloods So So you saw you of O I mean I don't think It was nothing like It was just like a ball of light

Okay Like what he The stuff that he summons. And he was trying to do it when you were with him. Yeah, he was praying. And do you, I don't know, like, okay, gun to your head, you're wrong if you, you know, you're wrong and you die. Okay.

Would you say that that was like human aircraft or prosaically explained ball lightning or whatever or like some kind of celestial, like otherworldly thing? I would say if I had a gun to my head, and my best guess would be that it's some sort of natural phenomenon that happens in the atmosphere that we just don't that I just don't notice because I don't stare at the sky enough yep because of me and Stephen were out there for two hours trying to find something with okay praying to the heavens and then we saw this thing it was definitely not an airplane yep I know it wasn't an airplane what it looked like we have a video it was a it came off of the horizon it was like a little ball of light came up off the horizon where the water met the the air

and it came up started going this way then got really really really bright, then got really, really dim, and then just fizzled out. So how would you explain that from a scientific perspective? I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Ball lightning, something like that? Like a ball lightning, some sort of atmospheric anomaly.

Yeah. But was there anything that would, you know, cause ball lightning? I had no idea. I don't know. I don't know the science behind it. But like, if I was to the, I know it was not an airplane. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the way it was moving was definitely showed that it wasn't an airplane.

Because we saw airplanes that were flying. Yeah. There was airplanes flying off the beach or off the ocean. on to land to land in Tampa Airport. And they had navigation lights flashing and stuff like that. They were obviously following a specific flight pattern. And this thing was not doing that. It didn't have the flashing lights.

It got brighter, dimmer, fizzled out to nothing. There it is. Came off the atmosphere. So this is the horizon of the... Can you see the horizon down there? Yeah, because it's so dark. It's worth of it. One more time.

It's in North Carolina. No, this is here. Out here. There is. Oh, there's something right on the water. Right on the water. What's that going up? Thank you.

If you could flash for us. That's an airplane on the top. That's not. I'm getting it. Right there. Now that starts going to the right. It's still in here. And now another one above it.

See? Yeah, and it's zigzagging. That one fizzles out. Look at this one on the left. Look at this one. Look at how bright skin. Whoa. Here, someone needs to look through this.

It's very bright. Thank you. Oh, you see it? It's right there. You see it? That is an orb. That is definitely an orb. I'm tracking it here. Do you want to look? Yeah. And then it fizzled out to nothing. Let me find it.

Faded in and faded out. They were seeing it with the naked eye. I didn't see it until I put it in his little psionic camera thing that sees in like the dark. But like maybe it's something to do with that camera. But I don't know. Also, they were seeing it with their naked eye. But like, I don't know. How do you explain that? I don't know. I got to talk to somebody who knows. about like this stuff I mean I don't know Do you

See how it comes off Of the horizon like that though That's crazy Yeah Is that again Steve? Yeah Cause that's is that water Rewind that's water

Yeah Go to the very beginning Yeah so what is Move the controller too So we can see the horizon Watch Watch Look that

What? Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah It was so far away You know

It was like How many How far away Would you say that was Steve I think the, from our vantage point the horizon is probably like three miles.

Yeah. We kind of starts going to the right too. Yeah. Yeah. And then it kind of goes back. It kind of zigz it. Yeah. Like what flies like that?

I don't know. I think there's definitely something to what he's doing. Like what he's doing is absolutely legit and real. I don't know how to explain it. Do you sense interesting energy when you're around him? Like, do you just like feel it? I don't know what to attribute that to.

I don't know whether to attribute that to whether I'm, I am just sort of being affected by the energy, and that's just a normal thing. Like, it's just his vibe that he gives off. Yeah. You know, and it's just affecting me, like, affecting my soul in a way where I'm like, I'm in it,

and I'm believing it in the moment. I'm like, oh, my God, wow, this is fucking blowing my mind. This is real. What is this? Yeah. Or, like, like I said, is this something that you could just go anywhere

and stare at the sky all night long and see this stuff all the time? That seemed anomalous to me at the best. very least. That doesn't seem like if you were to do some like meta study on like the probability of seeing that, even in a two hour period where you're staring at the sky, extremely low. Yeah. What is that? Right. That's weird. Now I'm not saying that that's definitely UFO and angel and orb. I don't know. But I think it's worthy of a investigation. Yeah. And then like like, detractors would say that like maybe he set somebody up with a boat and a drone outside there,

but like off the beach there. Do you get that vibe from him? I don't at all. I get, I get, you know, maybe everybody in UFO world or a lot of people are credulous and high on the openness scale. I don't, from my, you know, conversations with Chris Blood, so I think he's a good person. Me too. And also, he had no idea where we were going to dinner that night. We just went to, I told him a random restaurant.

I took him to on the beach. He didn't know where it was. And I said, or afterwards, I'm like, you want to go to the cross of the beach and see if we can do this. And he's like, oh, yeah, let's do it. I got my camera with me and his daughter and his wife and his, his, his, uh, his daughter and his wife were also there. Yeah. And he just did it.

Yeah, I don't think that's a hoax, man. No, it's not. There's something going on. There's something going on. And the wildest thing is all these people that are attaching themselves to them, which is like the craziest thing. Crazy people. Where if, I mean, dude, like, we're in like a cold war with China.

Why would we be spending those sorts of resources on a guy who's seeing orbs, you know, in North Carolina outside his backyard if it weren't something actually kind of profound and interesting? Mm-hmm. Like, why? Right. Because these guys are like... We're not just connecting dots here.

Like, this is like legitimate stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Like, this stuff is all documented. The people that are visiting him and befriending him. Yeah, Jim Semivand is like very well respected at the CIA. Yes. He's like pretty, I think, high up.

And like he spent a lot of time with Chris Bloodsoe. Yeah. I think they're good friends. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That combined with the fact that that video is completely went unsuited. searchable in an instant.

That's wild. On YouTube. That's weird. And we're like, I was good. Like, after that thing dropped, I would go every day. You probably do this where you just, I searched Chris Bledso on YouTube every day. Yeah. For like the first week just to see where it was ranking, right?

It was top for the first week. The day it dropped, you couldn't find it. You could go a thousand pages deep and never find it. It was just, it was just four or five or six history channel videos of him on the history channel. You want to know something funny? Huh. You could type in David Gresh.

To this day, I'm not to toot my own horn, but the video I did with him is the best video that he has. Oh, I agree. And like, you can't find it. You could type in David Gresh on YouTube, and it's News Nation, Rogan, a bunch of other things. And it's, my thing is unsearchable. And in five days, six days got well over two million views.

And then it just got throttled. And I mean, working with Yes Theory on it, they have nine million subscribers. on YouTube and I'm showing them the stats like the click-through rate and average V duration. They're like we've never seen anything this high like what like what the fuck and like you watch it and it's like very watchable. Yeah. And it's just impot here we're going through right now. Yeah. We're searching David with the C. Is that it? Yeah, but go to Dave David G-R-U-S-C-H. Have you seen it before though? I don't know. Search, go down. Look there it is.

That looks good. We're back, baby. It definitely wasn't. And, like, I have an email chain with Google about where it wasn't. So, like, I have the receipts that it was unsearchable. This happened to my Whitley Streber episode, too, but only for the first two weeks. Okay. After the first two weeks, they put it back.

Well, also, go on incognito. I do want to see if it's the same. Because you've seen the video. Open up an incognito browser. Yeah, a new private window. Yeah, whatever. But you're saying that it can come back. Get off brave.

Get off brave. Go to, go to Chrome. Yeah. Sometimes what they'll do is they'll make it invisible on search for the first two weeks when it's going to get shared the most and go viral catch traction the most after the first two weeks You're already posted your next video then they'll put it back so they can plausibly deny the fact that okay so we're good now we're good we're number two now Yeah, let's do that Which is all it's been a year now so it's not as relevant But yeah scroll down

That's my boy Chris Randi made an epic one keep going keep going keep going just go faster. You'll definitely notice it if it pops up. See, those history ones were the first ones to pop up last time. And yours is just nowhere to be found. And you know, it's funny, there was even a guy who re-uploaded my full podcast on his channel with him reacting to it. That was popping up. What? Yeah. Oh, shoot. It's really good.

Yeah, that was the same with the Grush thing for me originally. It was like all these like analysis of the video videos were ranking high. It's so crazy. Now go back to the top, Steve. So nuts, man. And yeah, yours was like the first big one. Go back to the scroll of the very top. top, it's still the most viewed, I'm pretty sure. Go to the, and get out of the search thing. See where it says filters on the far right?

Yeah, filtered by most viewed. Yeah, it's probably yours. Top, top, no, right? View count, yeah. View count. 3.9. Yeah, no, that's you. Yeah, yeah.

NASA's forbidden alien. There it is. Wow. Holy crap. Wow. That's wild, man. And you have in your tags and stuff, you have like Chris buttons on his name. No, like I said, it was the number one search result for the first, like, two weeks.

It's so. It's crazy to see. mine number two. Yeah. Is that right? Well, dude, I swear to God. No, I know. The guy YouTube literally told me this. Yeah, he told you that. Exactly. That mine fell off

a cliff views wise, yeah. And it went completely invisible. One completely invisible. Yeah. And then yes theories, they say, okay, this is crazy. Yes theories, they say it's the best stats they have on any video and it's one of their lower, it's like in the lower 25% viewed videos.

It only is 1.1 million views, which for them is 2.1.1.2 or 1.1 million views, which for them is extremely low. Like, they have crazy, crazy high-viewed stuff. Yeah. And the stats are, like, off the charts. So, like, they're also, like, super conspiratorial about it. And they're, like, the most, like, kid-friendly, do-goitter.

Like, they're, like, the best vibes. Like, they're not, and, like, it's like... They're not breaking rules. And, like, when they're, like, yeah, we're getting throttled, like, I don't know. Yeah. People, some people are speculating that the Trump thing is going to... do like some sort of a trust bust on YouTube and and force them to stop regulating this stuff so much and stopping on content. Well, dude, Trump made that like misinformation is bullshit like, you know,

it's like this like speech or whatever like right when he got elected. I loved it to be on. Misinformation is so condescending. Yes. Who is the arbiter of misinformation? Like why are you, why do you decide? You're so wrong. You've proven to be so incompetent in. the context of the pandemic and COVID and all these other things. Like the history of American false flags. Why are you the arbiter? Like why BBC trusted news initiative, CNN, you can say what is misinformation? You don't think for yourself.

Like it's ridiculous. So let everything out and let people decide. Yeah. Let people decide what they think is bullshit and what they think is real. Yeah. No, the, the Mike Ben stuff really illuminates all that disinformation, misinformation, misinformation stuff and how they go to other countries and like force them to regulate stuff

and they basically hold the corporations like they pit them against like maintaining their monopolies overseas like okay well if you're gonna if you're gonna censor this stuff we'll let you keep your monopoly in Europe right like dude that stuff is crazy it's crazy and speaking of that in the context of the UFO topic I should say the USAID funded the intercept

we know that for sure Ken Clippenstein came out with basically leaked Dave Grush's medical records. And that is what, like, kind of marginalized Grush for a while. I mean, I think most people don't really, like, realize it's bullshit. I mean, the dude, like, was an Afghanistan combat veteran was deployed, and, like, his buddy, like, died next to him, was, like, mortared and stuff. Like, it's just fucked up.

Like, and that's what they're, and, like, so, like, you know, when he would drink occasionally, he would, like, go through that. He would resimulate those feelings for him. and Ken Klibeinstein, who's working for a USAID funded publication, is leaking these medical records right after Grush testifies before Congress to discredit him. It's just weird, man. Yeah, that is super fucking. It feels really coordinated. God, man.

Yeah, the USAID thing is like such a nuclear bomb for the government, man. Yeah. Like that stuff is just bananas and how it's like you can't escape it. It's too big. It's too big to squash. We've just been living in managed reality for decades. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Spending, spending two billion or how many billions of dollars on trans operas in the Ukraine and like all this stupid stuff they're funding everywhere? Like, yeah. God damn. Ian Carroll's been doing a great job of talking about this stuff. He does like crazy deep dives on USAID and all this stuff. He's awesome. Yeah, he's dope. Have you, have you, have you, um, are you familiar with like the history of Google and Sergey Brin and like Google? being incubated by the CIA and NSA.

You were telling me some stuff here. I mean, I know that Menax, right, was like the DARPA search engine that kind of dovetailed with Google. But otherwise, I don't, you tell me, I'm sure. Yeah, so, no, there's a, I don't know much about it other than this crazy article I read on it recently

about this guy, I forget the guy's named. It was on Substack, I think. And he wrote, he did like a super deep dive And it's all connected to Sergey at Stanford was, and the guy that he was working under, were literally funded and visited the whole time and incubated by CIA and NSA people that were visiting him and like checking in on him

with the search with the page rank system and all this stuff and giving him stuff that was created by DARPA. Like it's all connected to DARPA and SAIC. And like all this crazy. military industrial complex stuff. Well, SAIC was, you know, based in Palo Alto. Yeah.

Yeah. So like it's a, it's so like, it basically. Where did you learn all this? From these, from the stuff that I read. Wow. And it's, it, the implications of it is that Google was quite literally funded and created by the CIA and DARPA. Yeah.

So what does that even mean? Like, how do you like, well, you know, you know, like Oracle's first contract was with the CIA. Yes. And like, I do think a lot of this stuff gets created in the black. Right. Well, so is Palantir too, right? Like, Palant, like, like, like, like, like, I understand that.

I understand why you would want to create companies that you're, you're literally, you're, you're doing it in reverse. Instead of creating a company and finding clients, you're, you're finding a whole or you're, you're finding a need that the government has a government who has billions of dollars in, in resources to invest in this stuff, find a way to do it better. And you're basically creating a. company that already has a built-in client, the U.S. government, which is, like, essentially what Palantir is, right? Or what Elon's doing with SpaceX. I think it's what it ended up becoming.

I think originally it was, like, around, like, some of the fraud detection stuff, they were doing at PayPal or whatever dovetailed with the software for Palantir. And then I think the CIA became one of the first customers. Right. But I don't think it was created in, in conjunction with, right? But I'm just saying, if it was me and I was, if I was one of these guys that was creating one of these crazy companies, right, that was doing surveillance and whatever the hell it does. Like, I would say, we have a huge opportunity to make millions of dollars off the government doing this stuff because we can do it better than they can do it. Right.

I think if you even had guys in here like Andrew Bustamante who have literally said Palantir is way better than all the stuff that we have at CIA. Like, we use Palantir. Right, right. It works way better. Right, right. So, like, it's a great business proposition to create a company like that. Yep.

But like, find out who wrote that article about Google. I think the title of it was how Google made, or no, no, it was how the CIA created Google. Interesting. And it's on substack. I want to give this guy credit. There's, while you're looking that up, there was a project at DARPA called LifeLog, and it was like, you know, like networking all these people. and like their friends and like their friend networks and I think it was shut down in 2003 or four

right before Facebook started so I do find that kind of interesting too but I don't I have again I have no idea if there's a connection there yeah but it is no this isn't it Steve it's you don't have to type in do you type in substack after oh yeah you did keep going I mean medium medium that's it right there yeah that's it I'm sorry I messed up this is it oh you can close that

close that bottom thing and you'll be able to see who it's by, at least credit the author. How the CIA made Google by Naafis Ahmed, Ahmed. Nahes Ahmed. Dude, this is mind-blowing. It's a two, there's two articles, like a series of them. I can't wait to read this.

But it's great, man. Interesting. Blew my mind. Wow. Well, I always found it interesting. Like, they were kind of, I mean, it makes total sense. Especially with the Snowden stuff in 2013, like, prism, bull run, all that stuff came out. And it's clear that the NSA just had like backdoors into like all of

these big tech companies. And then they had they, the NSA had a program I think at the time called Heartbeat, which is like you can like basically query anybody's, you know, data or whatever like in like this like centralized database repository. So yeah. We know that that was a thing at the at the very least. But I found it interesting when Google like as part of Project Maven like wouldn't work with the US government. And then simultaneously they were going into China like that same year. And so there's like something. I'm like, how coordinated is this stuff? And if it is coordinated, you know, is it at the like.

Are you talking about the thing where recently, right, where Google came out publicly and said that we're not going to work with the U.S. government to, to, it was some sort of like a part of some war. They basically came out publicly. This was 2017. Oh, okay. Yeah. 2017, 2018. Yeah. This was like a big public thing that they said.

Interesting. Interesting. Well, they were the biggest donors to Kamala. Yes. Number one donor. Yeah, man. Corporate donors. Yeah, dude.

Yeah. So it's funny. Like, we both, you know, are so dependent on YouTube. And I do, I'm like, it does make me occasionally nervous because it's like, it does, I'm grateful to Elon Musk, man. So was, you know who else was a huge, a donated to Kamala was, what's his name, Alex Karp? You know who that is? Now, Alex Karp was?

The CEO of Palantir? Of Palantir, yeah. That's really interesting. Really interesting. That I didn't I wouldn't suspect that he I mean I read that I read there's a New York Times piece that came out on him Really recently that's fast where they're interviewing him about this stuff and he's like he donated to Kamal Yeah, he was literally saying in there how he donated millions of dollars to The Democrat the Democratic Party and

He's always described himself as a like left-wing guy right? Yeah, he's like super into Hegel and like you know very like a Almost like a neo-Marxist or something and yeah But then it's also... He grew up with Peter, right? They're like really good friends. Like they've known each other forever since college. From back in the day. Yeah.

That's Stanford law, I believe. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. But he's also like... But he doesn't have any sort of hesitation in, in working with the U.S. government to advance American supremacy. Yeah.

I think their like mission in many ways is like they want to protect the free world. Yeah. And, you know, I think they are responsible. for a lot of, you know, big threats to the U.S. going down. And I think that's a pretty good thing. Yeah. Yeah.

I know there are a lot of conspiracies about them. Oh, there's so many conspiracies, bro. They're mostly, and that's what the other people don't understand. It's like, for me, they're mostly a black box. Like, I don't really, like, interact with. Right, right, right, right. Too much. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I've met. Have you heard of Whitney Webb? Oh, yeah, yeah. She goes deep on the Peter Thiel stuff. She's like, dude, she like frustrates me because she's clearly really smart and showing a ton of courage. And like going deeper on like Epstein networks than like anybody else, which is epic. And then now she's like, and now it's all, you know, Peter and Ballantir or whatever.

It's like, no, it's not. And your book is so convoluted. It's almost like if you wanted a sciop to throw people off the trail for Epstein, it would be that book. Like, it's so complicated. And again, I don't want to like, it's an amazing. I've been read it yet. I've tried to read it. Okay. And it does, she makes all sorts of amazing connections. It's like a thousand pages long. Yeah. It's such crazy. Yeah. And she's doing an amazing service, I think. And so like very net positive Whitney Webb. But like there's certain areas

where like it feels like she's just anti like anybody who's rich and powerful, like anybody. Like she's anti-Elon, you know, with all the stuff he's doing around free speech. And the USAID and rooting them out of our institutions like who do you want to do that you need somebody that powerful to do that yes so who's like ultimately like politics like is where like the battleground takes place and like it's power game yeah and you need the people with who are the most powerful like who probably made certain expedient alliances to get to where they are yeah like doing things to like get anything done yeah and i feel like she's super like if you if you are not yes so cynical and if you are not like you don't pass some like crazy purity litmus

test, you are the devil or whatever. And like, I would just say like, look, yeah, like, maybe everybody at the elite strata or whatever has, like, you know, had to, you know, at times make unholy alliances. Right. But, like, who side are you on? And I think, I think, like, some real good is being done in this, like, new Trump admin. Yeah, me too. With Elon and Tulsi and, like, Tulsi and, like, I mean, those two specifically, like,

really, I think were on the side of truth when it was unpopular, specific of RFK Jr. I mean, I love that guy. I think it's epic. So, yeah, I mean, I'm a fan of Whitney Webb's, but I do think she could just be so, like, ideologically purest at times. Totally. But, yeah, I'm glad she exists. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

She definitely does good work. But, like, yeah, that stuff gets, the rabbit holes are never ending when it comes to that stuff. If you don't like, you know, you have to follow. Like, it's not just, it's not black and white, right? Like, you can't just, I guess you can. You can. You can shred anybody you want for anything and find out every bad thing that somebody is done.

But you got to recognize the net positive that people are doing as well. A hundred percent. Anybody at a certain level of power, unless it's like the Cirque de Soleil, dude, who was like, you know, started from like with a homeless troop of circus people or like the Patagonia founder. Like occasionally you'll meet somebody where it's like, you got nothing. Exactly. But like anybody in the elite world of business, politics, government. Yeah.

I'm sorry. I can't name too many people where it's like there aren't certain things that you. you had to do you know and so it's it's it's a human nature it is it is unfortunately there's a political game

that has to be played to get shit done in Washington yeah you have to play that fucking game there's no way around totally and I don't want to fucking do I mean that's a shitty it's that being in politics now like I grew up actually being like

maybe I'd want to be in politics like when I was really little I was like maybe I'm interested in politics and be cool and then now I'm like it's a selector for the worst people just the worst like just sellouts like there's spineless

the people who are just obsessed with optics. Yeah and yeah it sucks. Yeah, it's weird shit. It's weird shit for sure. Well dude, thank you for doing this brother. We almost did four hours. What time is it? You're playing okay, yeah, we got to end it right now. Okay. I gotta go.

Jesse Michaels, thank you brother. That was fucking amazing. Danny, this was epic, bro. Thank you for having me. Yeah, man. American Alchemy on YouTube, aka Jesse Michaels. Where else? American Alchemy on YouTube and then go to wop.com, W-H-O-P-com slash Jesse Michaels. Michaels with no A. And that's like my Patreon equivalent.

We're going to do epic debates there. And it's going to be really fun. We're going to host all sorts of awesome conversations. And that's where you get like some really good stuff. We'll link it all. We'll link it all for everybody. You're the best. Yeah.

There we go. Exclusive content. And then, yeah, on YouTube as well under Jesse Michaels. Amazing. Thank you, brother. We've got to do it again. We got to do it again. Hey, I'm down any time.

I'll bring you down when there's waves. Let's go. Yeah, we got a surf dude. Yeah, exactly. All right. Goodbye, everybody. Later.