Danny Jones Podcast - #392 - CIA Scientist Deathbed Confession: NEW Files Expose Alien Contact | Andy Puharich

Episode Date: May 1, 2026

Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Andy Puharich is the son of Andrija Puharich, a CIA funded physician, inventor, and researcher best known for his work in parapsychology and fringe science. Puharich also conducted experiments on extrasensory perception (ESP) and claimed to explore communication with non-human intelligences. Greg Mallozzi is a filmmaker who produced & directed a new movie about Puharich called 'Mind Traveler'. SPONSORS https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off. FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - Andrija Puharich's early psychic research 02:30 - When Puharich discovered Uri Geller 06:08 - Itzhack Bentov's theory of consciousness 11:06 - Evidence Uri Geller's abilities are real 15:40 - Telekinesis & spoon-bending 19:45 - When Andy learned the truth about Andrija Puharich 21:50 - Andy's UFO encounter 25:49 - The intelligence agencies that funded Puharich 32:50 - The entity known as "The Nine" 42:12 - Saucers, Spooks & Kooks 48:33 - Reports of teleportation 57:09 - When the CIA tried to recruit Puharich 58:48 - Puharich's work on ELF (extremely low frequency) 01:05:45 - The sacred mushroom & psychedelic experiments 01:14:58 - Andrija Puharich's final documents 01:21:42 - Suspicious details about Puharich's death 01:35:30 - The Space Kids program 01:43:15 - Nikola Tesla and free energy research 01:52:09 - Puharich's Pyramid research & copper's special properties 01:59:06 - Faraday cage experiments 02:04:56 - Contacting Puharich's Space Kids 02:15:33 - Myth behind the Montauk Project 02:18:05 - Evidence in the Telepathy Tapes 02:25:44 - Ayahuasca & DMT Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Pleasure to meet you. Greg, good to see you again. Great to see you. Your documentary is incredible. I just watch it for the second time this morning. Thanks. Can you guys give us or the people that are listening who may not know a high level view of who your father was, Andrea Pujarich? He should do that. He's actually more of an expert on my father. I know that I am because he's done so much research. He was, well, you know, he was a scientist first and foremost. he was a medical doctor. He went to Northwestern Medical School at a medical degree.

But he started researching psychic phenomena very early on in the mid-40s, because really the Northwestern, when he was going to Northwestern, that was 46, 47, 48, and he was interested in that all the way back then. But he was just very early on interested in psychic phenomena, the brain, the possibilities of the human mind, what can be done. And so I think he was just a pioneer of ESP, extrasensory perception research and was doing experiments in that realm far before other people were.

And of course, his life and everything he did, he went on to do way more than just ESP research, but he started. He was working closely with Esauk Bentov, right? He discovered Erie Geller. He was a part of the Stanford Research Institute, SRI. Yeah, yeah. He was connected to all these people, how put off.

Yeah, yeah. So he was very important and he kind of had his tentacles, yeah, and all that stuff. But I think what's interesting about him is that he was never really, I guess, famous, you could say, in the sense that people don't know, you know, like put off and these other people are very known. I mean, of course, they're still alive and they're out there and they're talking. But Buharach is very like under, underground, I guess you could say. I mean, of course, he became much more popular in the 70s when his book on Uri Geller came out. But yeah, he kind of had his fingers and everything, but he was still very like in the in the shadows. I guess he was involved in like all this stuff from the very, very beginning.

But he's not very known. You know, he's not like a household name by any means. So out of curiosity, what was. so significant about, like, why were all these guys spending so much time in Israel? Because Uri Geller came from Israel, and there was a moment where in the film, where your dad, Andrea Poharach, he says he was leaving Israel and they took a bunch of his stuff. Right.

Well, initially, I think my dad was doing research on many people. And before Uri, he was researching this guy called Airo, who was a, a very good. Brazilian healer and ARIGO suddenly died and which was terrible and then research stopped and my dad was looking for a new research subject then he heard of this guy in Israel called Uri Uri Geller so some say that the CIA sent him on a mission to go investigate I've always thought that he just did it on his own curiosity but he went out there and um You know, went to see one of Uri's shows. Uri was doing performances, you know, showing his mental capabilities.

And so he just went to a show. They got to meet. He did some experiments in a hotel, set up some, you know, some simple experiments to see if Uri was genuine. And he found he was in those small, you know, little things he set up. And then I think the story you're referring to is then he left. and the Mossad got interested and they started following him or whatever, you know.

So, but basically he discovered Uri and he took him back to the States to have him researched at Stanford University where, you know, under lab conditions, they did tests to see if he was genuine, which, you know. Allegedly. Yeah, he was part of that.

He said something like, I've seen you do stuff that any magician could do, but we want to test this under like scientific conditions or something. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you want to have it foolproof, you know, so there's no cheating with cameras and all kinds of monitoring. So, and that's basically when, you know, Uri's career started. And unfortunately, that is what Uri thought it was, was a career as a superstar is what he wanted to be. Of course, my dad was more interested in the scientific aspect of it all.

To your point, though, about why in Israel, I think, you know, Annie Jacobson, our mutual friend, she brought up the idea that the Israelis were much more open to the sort of spiritual aspect of this type of research, whereas maybe here in the US they weren't they weren't as open to that because you know Buharich at that time was very interested in getting into the nine of course and in the channeling stuff and I think someone like Bentoff who is really like the the Israeli equivalent of Buharach in a way yeah they were very similar so I think he found a more open world there to explore the stuff that he was really interested in that Bentoff was interested in Whereas here, people were just way more close-minded to that stuff when it came to the channeling and the more far-out aspects of that.

So I think that, and that Annie, you know, theorized that as well is that's maybe why he was going there all the time just to, like, have fellow researchers who were more open-minded. And Bentup was an Israeli citizen, right? Yes. And an intelligence asset. Oh, of course. Yeah. Have you read, I mean, have you read his book, Stock in the Wild Pendulum? It is so complicated and hard to understand.

I had to listen to it twice. The dude is just so smart. It's like the dude, he's clearly, he's like, he's seeing fractals. The guy's like seeing shit that like normal people can't see. And the way he describes like human, like resonance, like the resonance of the human heart and the human brain and like these higher levels of like the soul and like the higher consciousness and how. we're all raisins in this bowl of jello.

And like if one raisin is vibrating at a frequency, they're all eventually going to start vibrating in that frequency. Yeah. Is that a scientific approach? He has? I guess. Yeah, you can call it that. I mean, in his book, he includes these diagrams and these examples of how,

like, everything in reality, this higher reality, is resonating down to, like, our base reality. and there's certain protocols you can use to kind of like expand your consciousness to to more essentially it's kind of like a more complex version of the the whole brain filter hypothesis right like our senses are just filtering out all of the stuff that's out there right just so we can survive and get through the day and procreate and survive um but yeah no it's just super it's super it's super fascinating that that he was working so closely with your dad's and with Uri Geller and all these guys. And then mysteriously, in like the 70s, I think he died in a plane crash, right? 79. Yeah.

But what's interesting backing up, and this is something I discovered during the whole process of the film, like Pujah, there's this big question mark of why did Geller come to the United States? Because as you said, and as your dad said, there was some organization,

like a parapsychology organization, that sort of got him, got him a ticket and he went just to investigate Uri. Uri says he's positive that the CIA sent Pujarich. But in fact, I'm pretty sure it was Bentoff, who originally tipped off Pujerich to Geller. Because in the archives, there's photographs of very early experiments with Geller where they're clearly in

Benthoff's living room. Right. Because it's Benthoff, it's Puj, Geller, and Benthoff. They're doing experiments. There's Geller. at a table with like a big black sheet over his eyes and some weird, I don't know, monitor device or something. So this was really early on. And you're saying this is before Uri came to the States. Yeah. And I think at one point, Buharach in a journal or something indicates that

Benthoff is the one who said, hey, there's this guy here, you got to come see him. And that was the original connection. But Benthoff is a very known Israeli intelligence. like very even back then yes but really before set because this was 72 i think these pictures are from but he was involved in this group of israeli scientists who were very very connected to intelligence in like the 60s like the mid 60s or something there's an interesting book that bent off's daughter wrote about him and it gets into all of this really he was like extremely and what's interesting to me is um later on in bouch's life in the 90s when he was, you know, older, he was kind of talking trash about Bentoff.

And he was some conference and somebody in the audience asked him about his connection to Bentoff. And he was kind of like laughed it off and made some sort of joke about how he was insignificant or something. So I don't know if there was some weird something happened between them. But no, he was super connected to that guy, Bent off for sure. That is strange. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder why that was.

I don't know. I don't know. Same field of interest. Yeah. But there's a tape, too, that we have of Pujah, at Bentov's apartment in Tel Aviv. Audio tape? Yeah, and they were just kind of sitting talking like we are,

and they just had a cassette, and they were just talking about, like you said, all this stuff in his book, things like this, but they were mostly talking about Geller and how they could sort of utilize his talents and what could be possible and you know all this stuff about could his mind trigger the um the root of a seed to grow and these sorts of things but gets back to your point i mean these guys were clearly super intelligent they're not just these you know wacko guys sitting around talking about geller like they were really like high are you convinced that he can really bend spoons and it wasn't magic like are you convinced like telekinesis is like a real thing like he there's some

real thing happening there where you can look at a spoon and rub it rub the air around it and make the thing bend like is that are you guys both convinced about this it's a very good question because i'm not totally convinced yeah i know it exists i do think it exists the interesting thing is there was this one point where uri was doing a show in england it's very famous and he asked people you know on television he asked people at home to pick up spoon and, you know, see if they could bend them as well. And the telephones at the BBC exploded because there was all these,

and especially young kids, who were suddenly doing this. And that was so interesting because they were just being triggered by Uri. And, hey, listen, I'm sure Uri was able to, you know, to do it at some point in his life. I'm pretty sure he was. I'm not sure if he kept that power, you know,

and I think maybe there was some trickery involved later on. That's my belief. Didn't you say you met with him not that long ago? Yeah, well, to add to your point, there was the same show in England in the mid-70s. And I think you know about this. One of the things he did apparently was inside a wristwatch. he claimed that the, you know, minute hand was going to bend.

And it did. And this guy had a wristwatch on, and they clearly hold it, like, right up to the camera, right? Inside the watch and the minute hand is like, you can find this. I think it's on YouTube. It's been. So it's things like that that, I mean, that's such an intricate trick to, like, pre-do, you know? And even back then in the 70s with live TV, like, they clearly didn't stop. I mean, it's a whole, you know, running show.

So that was really strange. I don't know how you would do that. There's mentalists out there, like Oz Perlman that can do crazy shit like that. Like you saw he went on Joe Rogan's podcast, like guessed his pin number on his credit card. You see Joe was freaking out. Like, I have no idea what was going on. Yeah, exactly. There's some crazy shit you can pull up with magic.

And he like, guys like that, those mentalist people, they tell you, like, this is all, like, this is not magic. Like, we have these crazy tricks where we're. he can do this stuff yeah everything is possible everything's been done by magicians right exactly there's always it's you know it's really hard and you know we were talking about this earlier when we were there we did this interview with uri and um at the end he did a spoon-bend session where we're out in a parking lot and the thing about it is uri would always you know if he wanted to go bend a spoon he would create a whole bunch distraction. You know, he would walk away and he would, you know, be distracting people and then he would bend the spoon. And I was always a little bit suspicious about that. Yeah, going like, look, see, that's the

apartment I grew up in as a kid and that window. That window, I used to look out that window and, you know. Yeah, but then he walks away and he's like somewhere behind a car and he's doing it. What? Yeah, well, you know. You didn't call him out on that? I didn't. Like, what the fuck are you doing, Ari? Just bend the spoon, would you? Well, to answer your question, yes, he did do it. And my thought is I just simply didn't... After he walked behind a car? Well, I don't recall that exactly.

But they had a camera right on. Yeah, we were filming him the whole time. Okay, okay. Yeah. But I don't know how he did it. It's all I can say. Was it a trick? Perhaps. But he did do the classic thing where he holds it.

He rubs it like this and it kind of starts back. I don't, I can't say, do I believe it? Not 100%. That's true thought, Danny. I can't say. I think it's bullshit. Yeah. Yeah. If you enjoy watching our show on Spotify or YouTube and you want to be more involved, I encourage you to please come check out our Patreon community. Not only does our Patreon community get every episode you see on YouTube early, fully uncensored and ad-free, but we're also doing Patreon exclusive episodes as well as live Q&As and you can get your personal questions answered by our guests every single week. For me, being able to collaborate and communicate back and forth with our Patreon community every week has been huge. And this is my way of saying. saying thank you for the cost of a cup of coffee a month.

Now back to the show. I keep going back and forth. I'm kind of like you. I think that this stuff's real. Like I think the telepathy stuff's real. I think the remote viewing stuff is real. I believe in extra sensory perception. But I think there's a lot of fucking fuckery that's going on with people,

especially people that are becoming very famous, getting a lot of attention for it, selling books, that kind of thing. That's where I start to get skeptical. Yeah. Well, the other thing I'll say about the telekinesis is you've probably seen when some people do it, like the tips of the fork will be like twirled, like sort of twirled up almost like a circle. Have you seen this? That is, I mean, I don't know how you do that by just kind of like bending it. Because even this woman, one of the space kids is in the film. She, of course, you know, didn't do it in front of me, but she had this bag of cutlery. She claims that she bent. And, you know, the tips of them are all wound up. I mean, that's really, that's strange. I don't know how you would do that.

Yeah. Yeah, that reminds me, we had Dean Radin. We were talking to him the other day. And he was telling us a story of a spoon that he was able to bend using these tricks. And who did it, you remember who he said he learned that from? No. Yeah, neither do I thought he was talking to Isaac.

Maybe he would, no, I don't think it was Isaac. I forget, it might have been early. But he was, Dean Radin's a guy who's been studying this stuff forever. He's like, uh, did a bunch of stuff within like the telekinesis parapsychology world during the Cold War. And he still does it today, scientist. And, um, he said like using these protocols, he was able to bend a spin. And he, I mean, he seemed very genuine when I was talking to him. He said he kept the spoon.

He says he still has it. It's like a real steel spoon or whatever, stainless steel spoon. And like there's no way you would have been able to bend it without a ton of force. Yeah, I know. Did he say how he did it? Was it like a chemical? Was it pre-worked on? No, he said he did it genuinely through these telekinetic powers.

Like he said that he was just like meditating and like was like, touching it, everyone was able to bend it with this protocol. And that was the only time he was able to do it. He said he's also tried it like hundreds of times and not been able to do it. He's like there was one time he's able to do it. He kept that spoon from when he did it. I mean, it is hard for anyone if you just get a stainless steel spoon. I mean, it's pretty difficult to bend it like that.

The thing is, and I'm sure you agree with me. I mean, I do believe also in the power of the mind is an incredible force. The mind can do so many things. Yeah. And this might be one of them. I don't know if people can repeat it like Uri Geller did all the time. So I think that, you know, if you want to be on a TV show or you have to perform. Sure.

You're going to. Sure. And this stuff, like, I imagine this stuff probably, you're probably not able to access this stuff 24-7, even if you can do it. Like, if you have some incredible ability to tune your mind to, like, another dimension where you can move. bend spoons and read people's minds. Like you're not going to build, I can imagine this like just comes to you on like whenever you want to call it. Like I'm sure when you're on stage in front of people and like you're getting paid to

demonstrate stuff like you can't rely on the muse tapping into you every single time. You got to figure out a way to like force it. So that doesn't mean that it's all bullshit. It just means that like look, if you're making turning this into a business and you can't rely on it all the time, you have to figure out a way. way to fake it sometimes yeah definitely so yeah that's where i feel too yeah a lot of and this goes for a lot of people that do so i wanted to ask you um how did you first discover what your dad was doing well um the first time he told me about it was in this 75 again not 95 and he told me he met this

He came to visit us in Eindhoven in the Netherlands, and he told us what he was working on. And, you know, he said he met this guy. He was able to bend metal with his mind and do all these other things. And that was the first time he told me about it. And then, you know, later on, I went to the States. And, of course, Uri was actually living in our house at the time.

Oh, wow. Yeah. I used to play basketball with him a lot. But I was, you know, I was 15 years old, and I was still trying to figure out what the hell all of this was. And I wasn't very easy believer. So, you know, it took me a long time before I could actually kind of...

Even when you were 15, you were skeptical of this stuff. Yeah, you know, my dad was my hero. So I kind of was inclined to believe the things he told me. But I've always been very skeptical and I've always, you know, tried to, you know, I need proof myself. I have to see it myself. At what point did you realize, like, how big this whole operation was that your dad was a part of? I think it kind of hit me when there's this book called Briefing for the Landing on Planet Earth. And this describes the work my dad did later with John Whitmore and Phyllis Lemmer,

with an entity called the Ninth and Phyllis channeled this. And they'd been doing that for a long time, and a book was published, this briefings book. And I read that book, and that really hit me. Then I really started to grasp the idea of, you know, there being extraterrestrial entities that my dad was contacting. And then I became really, really interested in it. And I started. But I have to be honest, it was only in 85 when I had a very serious. UFO encounter myself that I was totally convinced and all the doubt left me.

What was that encounter? It's an interesting story. My dad was living in devotion, North Carolina at the time, and a big house owned by the Reynolds Tobacco family. They let him stay there. It was a big house. He had a lot of people visiting. And I was there for the summer.

My sister was there. There was a whole bunch of other people. And there was two mediums. that were also there. And they both had the same prediction that there was going to be a UFO landing at the house on a certain date. So it was kind of funny

because the day before it was supposed to happen, my cousin and I took up a video camera and we recorded everyone asking him, how is it going to affect you? Do you think it's real and this and that? And we watched that movie that evening. and it turned out funny. We were all laughing about it.

A bunch of us went out to the porch just to sit outside and talk about it more. And I remember very well I was sitting with my back towards the outside and suddenly my cousin goes, oh my God. So we turned around and there was this huge area of lights that moved across the sky really slowly,

trailing the light behind us. And that was obviously not from this world. That was obviously, you know, and it had been predicted that it was going to happen the next day. But later on we figured out it was like almost at midnight. And that moment, I was able to drop all my doubt. You know, that was a very, very important moment in my life. So it just looked like a trail of lights? Well, what I saw is like there was,

a whole bunch of different colored lights. Like I didn't see a shape, but I just saw like a shape of lights. An interesting thing was that, you know, when something flashes by really fast and it leaves a trail behind, trail of lights, just because, you know, the way physics works. But this thing was going really slowly

and incredibly silent. There was no sound at all. How close would you say it was? Let's say about 100 years. yards away over the treetops. It lasted about, I don't know, maybe a minute. And what was the shape of the lights? Like, what shape did it form?

The form, it was kind of sphere. And it wasn't like a UFO shape, if that's what you're asking. I just saw this, you know, a whole bunch of lights moving across the sky, leaving this trail. And, yeah, pretty interesting. And it lasted only a minute. Yeah. And where it just zoomed off or what?

No, it didn't zoom off and it just disappeared behind the... Just faded away? Just faded away. Okay. Yeah. Good question, actually, because I can't really remember how it fade away. So, yeah, then everyone that was there witnessed it. You know, all we could go was, oh, my God, oh, my God.

We're all hugging each other. And if you have an experience like that, I can tell you, then you suddenly start to realize, Okay, so all of this stuff must be real. My dad wasn't even there. He was sleeping. And he goes, oh, yeah, I've seen so many of those. Really?

Yeah. Wow. It was really weird. So to answer your question, that's the moment of my life when I really realized, oh, my God, you know, what my dad's doing is really has some validity to it. And when did you realize all of the intelligence and military times? into all this stuff? I never really did. Oh, really?

No. You guys, your dad never talked to you about that stuff? Well, I was talking to Greg about that earlier. My dad, you know, you've seen the film, right? And that's one point where his house was burned down. Right. And he always, he was convinced it was the CIA trying to stop him of publishing a certain manuscript

and putting out information They had warned him not to do it. Right. Then his house was burned out. And then after that, he became incredibly paranoid. And he kept saying that the CIA was after him. And he hated the CIA. I mean, he was literally, he hated them and was totally against him.

That's the picture that formed in my mind. I mean, later on, people started putting pieces of the puzzle together. And apparently, I mean, I know he worked for the government. in his earlier years because he had to go to the military and obviously they paid for a lot of his research because they were very interested in what he was doing and when he was in the military

he was assigned to investigate the paranormal and so he had an involvement with the government but if he was ever really on their payroll he never mentioned it to me. All I know is he hated those guys. But that's my experience. You know, Greg really, you know, dove deep into all the material

and came up with another conclusion. So who was paying him? Well, multiple different agencies, at least in the early years. But that's what was interesting about doing this film, is like I would discover things that Andy, you know, would never really knew about. Like, for instance, something that I sort of collaborated on with Annie Jacobson

is that she had mentioned that he had gotten this large grant from the Atomic Energy Commission in the late 60s. Yeah, so what happened was, I, of course, was like, okay, what happened? Was this real? I did a lot of digging, and I came across the documents that, yes, proved this, that they went to his lab in the late 60s, Intellectron. He had a laboratory in New York where they were doing a lot of biomedical research.

Was that the Intellectron? Wasn't that the Roundtable Foundation Day? No, this was late 68, 67. And there's all these documents of this guy, Paul Henshaw, who worked for the Atomic Energy Commission, who was involved in the Manhattan Project, literally. And he was the head of biological research. or something for the Atomic Energy Commission.

They went to his laboratory to witness an experiment he was doing with the TD 100, which is this hearing device that Buharach invented. And you see it in the film where these deaf patients were able to hear, using tones that would somehow connect through the facial nerves. They would hear, be able to interpret signals and voices. And he invented this machine that did that. And he demonstrated this for the Atomic Energy Commission, and they concluded that the technology was definitely real and definitely worked, how he said.

And he got this, I think, $300,000 grant. From the Atomic Energy Commission. Which at that time was over maybe close to a million dollars. And that was in 68. And, yeah, there was the story of somebody who had like metal teeth, and they were picking up radio signals or something. Yeah. They thought they were hearing voices and it was just like the radio, local radio antenna.

Yeah, yeah. That was earlier at the round table in the 50s. That's how he started the Intellectron Company. Yeah. Because he's working with his dentist and he figured, oh wait a while, this guy is receiving, you know, he's got this filling with access as an antenna. And then he came up with this device that you'd actually implant in a tooth with a transmitter on your wrist or whatever that would transmit.

And so deaf people were able to hear through this nerve. I think that's how we started working on the TD, the transdermal machine, right? Yeah, that started in the 50s and went in through the 60s. But that's one example of, you know, who was giving him money. I mean, that's a fact, Atomic Energy Commission. But what's always mysterious is like we don't really know where it went, you know, or how far it went. But we just know, hey, they gave them a significant amount of money. And what happened with that or how much it was advanced, we don't really know.

Did they buy the whole project off of him? Because I know that at some point, you know, we suddenly got a letter, I'm a millionaire. But he had sold the Intellectron Company. He'd gotten rid of it. So would that coincide with that? You're saying it was a grant for him to do research? Yeah. I could.

I mean, again, it just goes back to the mystery of him where even though the research I've done, I don't, I've heard that story, I think, through you and maybe your sister as well, that they had sold the company, but I don't really know. Like, I never really found anything that would indicate that that is how it turned out. You got a letter of, he told you he became a millionaire? Yeah, well, I was living in the Netherlands. I think we got a letter and he said, oh, I'm now a millionaire or something. Oh, wow.

Something to make him look whatever big. So, but, you know, the interesting, and this is going to come up a lot because Greg has done so much research or my dad, he's really, you know. went and found all these incredible documents and papers and tapes and videos. He knows a lot more about my dad than I do. Out of all of the research and all the documents and all the tapes that you listen to, Greg, like what to you sort of stood out the most or like kind of like blew your perception out of the water the most? You're pre.

Were there any like preconceptions you had that kind of like shocked you? I guess it was, it kind of goes back to this TD 100 device because he creates this in the 60s, right? I think it was even like 65 or 6. It was pretty early. And again, what that does is it enables people to hear like tones and they can decipher tones, which could have a message in it and so forth and they can hear it. So I think for me, there's a lot of these takes. and we may have talked about this from the way later in the 70s, late 70s, these channeling sessions.

Right. Where they're communicating with the nine and they're, you know, usually a space kid is going into a trance meditative state and is receiving information from the nine, you know, in an alleged entity. What are the nine? The nine? We can't, we can't just gloss over that. Yeah, we gotta tell people what the nine is. Yeah. The nine, this woman called, well, actually, this all started, it's kind of interesting.

This all started really early on. When was it? When the doctor, the doctor, Phenon, came into his lab? 1953, yeah. Was it in the 53 of it, really, that early? Wow. So this Indian guy walks into his lab and I don't know the details and takes my dad by his, I think, index finger, gives him a story of his life to convince my daddy that. he's you know that there's something psychic about him or whatever and then he starts channeling

this entity that calls themselves a nine how do they start off we are m something yeah there's all this weird yeah and they say they're like the nine principles of nature forces something or other and so later on many years later this woman phyllis comes along and she she suddenly starts channeling the same entity the mind and my dad really latched on to that and how many years later was that uh well technically it was erie who did he did he initially but he didn't he channeled to that entity called spectra yes it was phyllis that of that did did he claims to have i don't know if he's that's truthful but he claims to when you guys are talking just try to try to like talk into the mic oh yeah so it was it was like

a decade later. It was early 70s. The first one was 53. So for whatever reason, all that time passed. And then they popped back up, you know, almost two decades later. Whoa. So that's... Yeah, and Phyllis was a very powerful channel.

And the information that she channeled was very interesting. And she talked about Earth's history and the involvement of alien civilizations. and my dad actually set up a whole, like a company, right, called the Lab 9, which was, you know, centered around her communications, and they did all these trips and I think it's in the film, right, that they went out to meditate a lot and, yeah. So what were the 9? So it's complex, but apparently there are a group of entities

that are basically overseeing. being the universe, I guess is the simplest way to say. Okay, so they're aliens. Yeah. Yeah, well, whatever. Aliens are like divine spirits. More like divine spirits. Okay.

Because they've never really said, you know, we look like this or we're shaped like this. They have the spokesman called Tom. They never said we're from Zeta reticuli or no, no, no. They're more of like, yeah, and just an intelligence that can be contacted through this method of trance. and that they're out there, they're overseeing not just Earth, but the universe. They're overseeing what happens with the planet because it's all part of a cosmic plan and they're making sure things don't happen and that kind of thing. But it's a group of intelligences is the best way I guess you could describe it.

And they communicate through certain people, usually through psychic people. and for whatever reason, there's only like a few that they've come through. It's this guy, Dr. Vana, the Indian guy in the 50s, and then apparently Uri Geller, in the 70s, and then this woman Phyllis in the 70s as well. So it's strange. I don't know if there's some protocol that brings them through certain people or some people can bring them through others can, but apparently like just through Pujarach, he was able to get people to connect with the nine.

And it's very, I mean, it's a total rabbit hole, you know, like Peter Levenda. Yeah. It talks a lot about the nine and there's tons of conspiracy stuff about it. And but I think the big question obviously is like. What is the conspiracy? No good. Sorry, I mean, in the real, what's the question? Well, the conspiracy is just the when they formed, right?

So in the 50s that, you know, Pujarach has this psychic lab. He's doing a lot of psychic research. And at the time, he was working or getting funding from the military, from the Army. And again, we all know this as a fact. There's documents. And this goes back to the CIA thing, too, because he was corresponding with the CIA back then, too. I mean, there's literally letters from Alan Dulles' assistant going back and forth to Buharach. You know, it was nice to see you in Washington.

Make sure you touch base when you're here. you know that kind of stuff so the conspiracy is basically like why in a in a research lab being financed by multiple intelligence agencies is all the sudden a psychic making contact with this right of intelligent beings and why are there all these very very elite wealthy high society people involved and why are they there and why are they part of it is there some bigger plan? Is there some bigger idea here? Is this psychological warfare? Is this real? So it all goes back to that origin point in the 50s where they first came through this Indian psychic. But, you know, I can see why people would think the kind of conspiracy angle to it. But at the same

time, we just don't know. And that's what's frustrating about, you know, making the film and spending so time like to as we sit here today like I still can't really definitively say oh this is this is what happened like we it's a huge rabbit hole you know and I don't know there's a big conspiracy that you know the nine of these people in politics through the years have been involved and of course there's the Gene Roddenberry connection where he came to a bunch of the sessions and was channeling the nine so people think that they're who's that He's the creator of Star Trek. The guy created Star Trek. Oh my God. I actually put out a video about this. Somebody showed us the most fucked up video I've ever seen the other day of the creator of Star Trek. Yeah, he's talking about like his daughters and shit.

You see that? Unfortunately, yeah. Yeah, so he was involved. He went up to the Pua Arch's house and sat in on all these channeling sessions. So the point is there's just conspiracies that the nine. Roddenberry did? Yeah, we have the tape of it. I made a little video on it.

Wow. Yeah, Cosmic Clock is a new page I started where I'm trying to put out some little tidbits of things we haven't used in the film. What's the conspiracy? Well, it's just this idea that because some, like the military, creator of Star Trek, all these people are trying to use the nine

to usher in some new world order a new agenda and the nine are orchestrating everything. But I mean, we've seen, of course, there's Deep Space Nine and you can say, okay, he was influenced by the nine and he called it Deep Space Nine, but there's no real like evidence that the nine actually like did anything or really shaped anything or really changed anything. And what's odd to me is the fact that, you know, why is no one now channeling the nine? I mean, where'd they go? We have a new version of the nine now. Yeah.

I mean, that whole story, like, it parallels perfectly with modern stories of, like, UFO abductees and stuff. Well, not modern, but like, if you look at, you know, for example, Whitley Streber, you know, a guy who's like, you know, his stories are insane, prolific science fiction writer connected to all these spooks. And, like, his family was in the military. He was a part of, like, some crazy childhood experiments in the, in the army in Texas. And you have a guys like Chris Bledsoe who,

you know, from North Carolina has these crazy sightings. And all of a sudden he's getting visited by NASA and like all these spooks and these intelligence people that are like tied into, you know, like, who knows how much misinformation stuff could be wrapped up and all that. Yeah. You know, and then you have like laying the ground work for all of this. You have the whole Paul Benowitz story. I don't have familiar with that one.

Oh, yeah. Where like he was literally drove into like an insane asylum. Yeah. You know, by Richard Doty, I think his name was, this disinformation guy. There's a good film that just came out about all that called Saucers, Spooks and Cookees. What? Oh, you've got to see it. What did this come out?

I'll plug that right now. What a great title. It's Adam Go Rightly. He's an author. He's written great books. You wrote a book about Carrie Thornley, that guy who was friends with Oswald and the whole JFK. He's like a genius. This guy.

He's an author. Pull this up, bro. I want to see this. This is out? Yeah, he wrote a book called Saucers, Spooks, and Cookees, which is like a very detailed history of the whole just UFO disinformation world when it started, why it started. It's a great doc. They based it off his writing, his book. Yeah, it's out now. You can find it. But here we go. Yeah, there's a trailer. Let's watch it. We might have to, they might copyright us. Oh. Again, if you want to throw the headphones on, you can hear it.

I thought you may have heard of this. No, I have not. Go ahead, hit it, Stevo. Lazar. Roswell. Alien bodies, multiple crashed alien spaceships, a government cover-up. Dolce base. It didn't matter what base it was.

It was all the battle was underground bases and the aliens are coming in and all this really out-there-fringe areas. This is such a crazy-ass story. My God. Paul Benowitz was a scientist. He started noticing that there were. Lights doing strange things. These things lit up like balls of bright light and just took off. Came up, went south, around the end of the mountains, gone.

Who's this guy? That's go right. We don't know what else it could be. They decided to just encourage him with the outlandish ideas. One, because the only people that would listen to be crazy UFO people and foreign agents. Spokes. We got Richard Doty, apparently purposely misleading Benowitz, for whatever purposes, which could be counterintelligence

to confuse Russians. Moore, to me, he was completely sold on Benowitz. And Benowitz at that point, had become the paranoid. Man, it's like what a gut punch. Everybody in that room, including Stan Friedman, had basically been played by Bitton. played by Bill. I guess these days it would be more like that New York Times article.

It just comes out of nowhere and just bang. Somebody's making an effort to push it through in the way that people have information. Yeah. And how they're using UFOs to potentially cover for an intelligence, kind of gathering, psychological warfare. And it's such a great, freaking cover story. If someone like Paul Benowitz and it's already there, you just let them do the work. Yeah, that's fun. Yeah, no, that's the craziest thing about it too, man.

That's the reason I'm more skeptical than ever about it because like that that's, that makes so much sense that it makes more sense that they would have been trying to use Paul Benowitz as because he was tied to Mufon and he was living in New Mexico, seeing these these weird crafts flying above the Air Force base. And then Paul Benowitz goes, hey man, I think these are aliens. I think you're right about this. And then the NSA moves in across the street, starts beaming shit in. into his apartment telling him that there's some alien civilization that ran out of water and

they're coming here. And now he's going and talking to Mufon because like and the whole strategy, the high level strategy with the military was give pump this guy with a bunch of fake information that leads him away from our serious military technology. And because we know the Soviets have infiltrated the UFO community in the United States trying to get more information on our on our military technology. So we're going to like, you know, throw them off the path, throw them off the trail or whatever and use this guy's like a conduit of disinfo. Yeah. And that's the story as as old as the UFO story is. You know, that seems to be the intelligence, the whole intelligence thing is like so intertwined in all of it. Yeah. It's just like it's almost like you are just

going to spin your wheels if you're going to spend your time trying to figure out what this really is because it's just you walk into it. It's a fucking house of mirrors. Yeah. Well, I think my takeaway, I mean, I'm a believer or, you know, I want to believe, of course, but I completely agree with everything you just said. But, you know, at the same time, I just feel like just this idea that every single UFO sighting or situation ever since the beginning of time has just always been a cover for a military thing. Yeah, no, I don't think that's, yeah. I'm not saying you do. I just me. Some people think that. And, you know, then you got Andy, your story. You're I mean, I have no reason to disbelieve you.

A lot of people, my own mother, who's the most, you know, sane, level-edited person, she has a very weird story when she was younger seeing something. So it's like, you know, I just feel like there's definitely that going on. I think that's obvious. I mean, it's like a true story what happened to him. But I think, and I guess a lot of other people think too, like there's still craft of unknown origin out there. What do you think?

Yeah, I think it's not binary. I think there's probably some shit out there that we have no idea. I think I'm inclined to believe that we have stuff that's unexplainable that defies physics, that we like siloed some sort of physics back in the 50s, some anti-gravity type stuff that the public's not aware of. I believe that. And I also believe that there's probably, I think like the real aliens that are out there flying around, I think it's probably some sort of like prehistoric human civilization that like survived through time, through cataclysm and stuff that maybe lives under the water and is able to like shield itself from us. What about us from the future?

That's basically that, yeah. Right. Right. Right. Right. If they are that advanced, they could probably figure out how to manipulate space time somehow. Right. Yeah.

I agree. And speaking of like the sort of funneling away advanced technology and stuff of a cool. crazy story, you probably remember. It's not in the film or anything, but this story about Uri Geller apparently teleported from, so you have you heard this story that's in the news right now? This guy, he's like a FEMA director, and he claimed that he teleported to a Waffle House. No. That's incredible. Can he bring that up, Steve? This has been all over the news. So this guy, he's some sort of top FEMA employee. or direct someone in the Trump administration high up guy and I don't even know the full story but

apparently he's been out there claiming he teleported from his house into a waffle house or something I wish I could find do that and so it's very odd and he's it's all over the news and I'm but the point is back in the 70s erie geller claimed that he teleported from walking down the street in new york city to paharage's house in awson and came crashing through the the screen door here look uh The Guardian. Top U.S. FEMA official claims to have teleported to a waffle house before. Teleporting is no fun. Greg Phillips picked to lead FEMA's Office of Response and Recovery has said on a podcast.

Put this guy in the list. A far-right conspiracy theorist turned high. Oh, he's a far-right conspiracy theorist now. Turn high-ranking official at the U.S. Federal Emergency Management Agency, FEMA, claims to have once taken. teleported to a waffle house. Scroll down? Yeah, this is a...

What was he called in a waffle house? On a January 25 podcast appearance, Phillips claimed that his car was lifted up while he was driving and transported 40 miles away into a ditch near a church. And in another instance, on the same episode, Phillips said that he was teleported 50 miles away to a waffle house in Rome, Georgia.

Seen in detail, the deep dive into Phillips past public statements. Wow. So he says this was a long time ago or something? I don't know. Hang on, scroll down. Teleporting is no fun, he said. You know it's happening, but you can't do anything about it.

And so you just go and you just go with the ride. And wow, what an incredible adventure it all was. Well, what's crazy is that Geller in his story, he says the same thing almost. He goes, you know it's happening and you can't control it. and all of a sudden it happens. Geller says he was like walking down Fifth Avenue or whatever. And he suddenly felt like he was being pulled back in the next moment. He was face down.

There was a big hole in my dad's porch screen up high. So whatever. They filmed it too. There's like Super 8 video of him filming this screen porch that's all smashed in. Yeah. And then he smashed on the glass table. The glass table were shattered. What?

And Uri was lying up. on the floor, yeah, this is a weird story. And I mean, if you wanted to throw something through, no, it's not just the aftermath. Just the aftermath, yeah. If you want to throw something, you know, you need a helicopter or whatever to actually make that happen.

So, and or you had a receipt in his hand because he had just bought something in some store with a time stamped on it, you know, 50 miles away and like minutes before. So it's a pretty credible story. My theory is they were experimenting with how to teleport a human being. I have no. Who's there?

I don't know. That's just my crazy theory. Or, you know. Was, wait, he, so Pujarich was there? Yeah. Well, he was at his house. He was at his house. He heard his big, big slam.

He thought that the furnace had exploded. So maybe they figured out a way to, to, to teleport, you know, a solid. you know, a small object. And so they said, why don't we try and see if this is possible with a human being? It's a crazy theory, I know. But, you know, Geller, I think at that time, in a way, it was sort of like a guinea pig to a lot of these types of experiments, I think.

Yeah, that's a weird thing, though. I have no proof of that at all. One of the crazy things about this whole story is that if this is some, like, deep funded research that the military or the government is doing. Why make this guy such this, like this celebrity figure? Like Powell put off said in your movie, I think, he said Geller was maybe like 5% of their research, but he was 95% of their publicity. Yeah.

I think, I mean, it's just a theory, but I think it's maybe a distraction. action situation where here's this, again, I have no idea if this is really how it went down. But so, Buharaj publishes the book on Erie Geller in 74. He writes a whole book about how he met him, how he brought into the United States, how all a sudden he started channeling the nine, and he details his teleportation story and all these other crazy stories. If you recall, there was like a pen. One of their pens got teleported to a UFO and it came back and they have proof that it came back.

So I- Tapes, don't forget about the tapes. The tapes where they would record channeling sessions would disappear. So the only way that he could know what was said is you had to quickly transcribe the tape before the tape dematerialized and would disappear. This is all in this book that Buharaj published. So you think here's a very, intelligent doctor, scientist, potentially very military intelligence connected, was all of a sudden

putting out a book, which would do nothing more than completely discredit him and make him look like a total nut. Which is what happened. Which is what happened. So then. When he published a book. When he published the book, the whole scientific. So then they can say, oh, of course this guy's just, did you read his book?

He's crazy. You write all this crazy shit. of course he's so then he can go on and do whatever he needs to do so the general public says oh he's that guy who wrote that crazy book about the teleporting and of course we do we how could we believe this guy and he can go right on his way doing whatever experiments he wants to do just a theory but you know i saw this old documentary about the kgb and it was really interesting is there's this one section where they talked about a tactic they use is actually to purposely discredit people in that way put out false articles, put out things that make them look like, essentially they're crazy. And so these people can kind of be seen like that publicly, but in the shadows just continue what they're doing. So that was in like a very legitimate doc on the KGB I saw. So I don't know, but it does make you question that book. And, you know, why would this very credible, very smart, very, you know, put, just published that.

And it was a huge book. It was a bestseller. I mean, it was. Or would they intentionally, they being like the spooks behind it all, would they intentionally plant fake seeds into these people's like Pujarach's mind and tell them things knowing that when they do eventually write a book or blow the whistle down the road, they're going to have these fake things built into the story that sounds so crazy. It's just going to make.

him sound like people are going to think he's a kook right that's like that's like my take on the whole bob lazar thing i think that you know how he describes walking by a window and seeing like an alien and they showed him the documents that said it was from zeta reticuli yeah i feel like those could have been like specifically planted things um along the way that they intentionally brought him into contact with so that if he ever did come out and like spill the beans that would be in the story they would know where it came from and like people would think he's bad shit crazy i agree with that i think that's probably possible that's probably one aspect of all this stuff too yeah well something we were talking about that i wanted and you to say is um because there's this big conspiracy really about

what we're saying like how connected was boucher did he work for this and that and you know we don't really mean we have some documents we have the atomic energy commission thing but There was a story in, I guess, what, the 80s, late 80s or something, when these two individuals came to your house and were sort of trying to recruit him, I guess you could say? Yeah, well, you know, that's the story my dad told me. I mean, I saw these guys show up and they had a heated conversation and my dad sent him away.

My dad later on said those were CA operatives that tried to get him to work for him. When was this? In the time he lived in. 83, 84 or something. Yeah. Yeah, probably around that time. Or it takes... But to be quite clear, guys, I mean, I'm not into the conspiracy stuff at all.

I've always just thought like my dad was a curious scientist who's looking for, you know, answers to the paranormal, went to Israel by himself and, you know, met this guy and took him back to the stage. And I don't... I'm not into the whole everything to set up plans. and everything's, you know, set up to discredit him. I'm not in that league at all, I'm afraid. So, but, you know, that's my take on it, which is, which is. So who, so when was this visit, though,

with the guys that he said were intelligence officers? Well, I want to say it was like 83 or 85, but from what I remember at that time, his dad was doing a lot of this ELF work. Right. Extremely low frequency. Because that's a whole different chapter. My dad really went into the ELF stuff.

That's the reason that his house was burnt down because he wrote a manuscript called the magnifying transmitter. He was going to have it published. But then the publisher, the manuscript disappeared. And my dad was warned not to publish it. And then the house fire happened. But that was all the ELF stuff. I believe that's real because my dad was trying to.

So the ELF stuff, is all tied to like Havana syndrome and all that stuff, right? Correct. Yeah. Okay. But way early before all this stuff started coming out, we're talking like 76. The Havana thing wasn't that sound waves? Wasn't that extra low frequency?

Yeah. They're beaming some sort of frequencies or something like that. Yeah, but the ELF is extra low frequency, which is like really low bandwidth, and the Russians were experimenting with it, and Americans were experimented to use it as mind control over large populations. That's basically in the theory my dad had at least. Okay.

And he was able to pick it up on his radio. We could tune in and you could hear like this chopping sound like a helicopter. And he was totally into that and he was, you know, focused on that for a while. How would you use these? What does ELF stand for? Extra low frequency. How would you use extra low frequencies for mind control? Well, apparently it has some kind of, what would you call it?

It works on the brain or it works on the physical body to make people edgy or, you know, it's just a way of mass you produce the signal. And there was big antenna arrays. It was not like just a small thing. Oh, yeah. The one in Russia is insane. The one in the middle of, find the picture of the big ELF panel in Russia. It's like the size of a goddamn football stadium.

The idea is that certain. frequencies can cause different reactions in the brain. So essentially, I think it's a very low frequency, ELF. That causes a sort of... It's kind of a mind control thing. Yeah, like a trance-like state. But very crude. So like it makes you more receptive to things?

Yeah, more receptive, tired out of it, just discombobulated, higher frequencies, which apparently they used in Iraq in the 90s. That causes people that are very agitated, very angry, very crazy. Really? This is the idea is like, say you have a little, well, this guy that Buharaj worked with Bob Beck, he created this little, what he called, a black box. And you could have it sitting right here as we are right now and you can just literally go like this.

And if it's the low one, all of a sudden you're, you know, doing this. If it's the high one, you're freaking out. So the idea is that this is being done on this type of scale. that thing. That's the one in Russia. And Pujarach became... It's still sitting there today, right? Yeah, I believe it's still there. But it's dead now, right?

But this is one of the things that Buharach, I find, is sort of redeeming in the sense that he went out. I mean, I think you can speak to this too. Like, he, I guess, proved that this is what was going on. This technology was real. It was being used. he wanted to blow the whistle on this. And they, once again, they, you know, were saying, you know, you can't do this,

you know too much, et cetera. That's probably why the house was burned. But he, after the house, you know, the house was burned right after. Same, pretty much the same time. He wrote some manuscript about it. Yeah. Yeah. He was going out.

He was lecturing. But he really, even after the fire, he went out and he kind of made it his sort of mission in those later years to just warn people. Like, I've discovered this. This is a huge problem. Yeah, you've made a device to protect you from it, right? And what's the story with the house? What's the conventional explanation for the house burning down?

Like, what was the investigation? What was the investigation? It was definitely concluded. It was arson. It was arson. It was definitely arson, yeah. Yeah, there's a police. And it was people in the house.

They tried to kill the people that were in the house as well because they doused the front porch. back porch with some very flammable liquid which was only used by certain you know it was a really weird kind of thing so that both the the escape exits were blocked and there was like three people in the house Heidi was there right yeah she had to jump from the from the second floor it was pretty intense and where was your dad at the time he was in i think he was in california at the time yeah Yeah. So they knew he wasn't there. They must have known he wasn't there. Yeah, and I'd been there all summer, and I left two days before the fire happened.

So I was felt out. They didn't want to kill me, thank God. Do you think they were, so who do you think it was? They. If you were to guess. Yeah, well, my dad always said it was the CIA, but, you know, I mean, you could, you know, there's so many agencies. What are you going to, when are you going to call him? You know, it could be any agency, but at least, you know, it was an agency that was a term. to stop him from getting this information out into the world. Was there evidence in the house that was destroyed? Yeah, I mean, I think that was the idea

to destroy what's in there. But I mean, of course, a lot of it saved because you have it that ultimately wound up with me. But who knows what was destroyed? By the course of a miracle, someone was able to alarm, to set off a fire alarm, which was in the street. And fire trucks came very quickly,

and they saved most of the house, and most of the paperwork as well. Wow. Which was pretty incredible. But it was clearly way more sophisticated than, you know, a disgruntled person who was there who was like, I'm going to light a fire. I mean, even the arson report details how sophisticated.

Yeah, they block the doors. I mean. Yeah, it was professional. They said they could tell by the straightness of the lines where they poured the liquid that the guy had no nerves because they were perfectly straight lines. You know, stuff like that because, you know, they're saying that it wasn't a professional. It wasn't, you know.

So, I mean, that's real. That's real. And after that, my dad really freaked out. And he went in hiding in Mexico for, I don't know, a couple of years. And he was really, and after that, he was obsessed by the CIA trying to get to him. It kind of got him paranoid, huh? Yeah, but very paranoid. I mean, it went way over the top.

Really? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And didn't you write a book about a sacred mushroom? Yep. Yes. Was that when he went to Mexico?

Oh, actually, yeah, here. Yeah, this was recently republished. Yeah, both of these. So it's kind of interesting. Oh, look at that. Yeah. I brought only the cover because I was trying to travel lightly. Sacred Mushroom, the key to the door of eternity.

See, that was in, what is it, 59 when he published that, I think originally. And so that was one of his initial investigations. into the paranormal. 59, you said? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, 59, yeah. But it was written throughout the 50s. So this was before John Allegro's

Sacred Mushroom book, I think. Yeah, I think we talked about. This was very early. We did talk about this, yeah. Yeah, because he did all the, sorry, he did all the research for it, like earlier. And I think it just happened that 59 was the year it was published. Right.

In the sacred mushroom, Andrea Pujaroic takes us on an extraordinary journey into the realm where ancient whispers intertwine, with the pulse of modern exploration. The Amanita Muscaria, mysterious and powerful, a gateway to the unseen, reveals its long-veiled truce through his words, weaving past through luminous corridors of consciousness and awakening. Wild. So the story behind this is he was doing trans work with certain psychics,

and it was one psychic called, it was Peter Herkus, or was it? Harry Stone. Harry Stone. Harry Stone. So he started channeling and writing hieroglyphs suddenly. And my dad, of course, didn't really know what was being written. So he started studying ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs. And it turned out he was talking about this mushroom as a way to open up people to become more perceptive.

Yeah. So that's basically when he got interested in the mushroom and did a lot of research into that, went to went out to find there's a lot of footage on that as well isn't there yeah yeah yeah and um footage yeah my dad made all these he went to mexico to film uh what was it rights being conducted by brujas with his mushroom where um like the donkey was stolen from and they wanted to find out who did it you know basic stuff like that so they did this ceremony and uh you know and then the brouhah said it's that guy and the donkeys over there you know yeah crazy stuff but that's all on film it's really yeah old school but it's it's it's very cool so how much did he start experimenting with psychedelics

after this well i think even before the well around the same time as the mushroom i know he was involved in early lSD stuff as well because he was he connected to john lilly yes in fact um john lily um john the guy who does all the experiments with dolphins and communication with dolphins. And I know Andrea was interested in that too. But yeah, they were very close colleagues, yeah. In fact, Buharge told some story about how, I guess, in Lily's later life, he had had some manic episode. Yeah.

Yeah. And tried to help him and everything. Oh, really? Yeah. But they were very close, yeah. Yeah, he was all, he was all, he was on what ketamine, I think it was maybe? Yeah. Something.

But he thought he was talking to aliens and shit. Yeah. Completely lost it. NASA funded John Lilly to figure out like interspecies communication. Yeah. And John Lilly was like, you know, cutting open the heads of dolphins and like experimenting on their brains and shit. Like really probes in their brains trying to figure out like telepathy and stuff.

There's a good film about him. It's all about this woman who was working in his lab with the dolphins at the time. It's like the first time she's ever spoken. about it and it came out years ago. Is this lady that was fucking the dolphin? Yeah, I think. I saw this one. I think it was.

Yeah, the dolphin lived in the house with her. Yeah. She, like, filled it with water. Yeah. Crazy documentary, dude. Yeah. But I think to answer your question, yeah, he was involved, I don't know how deeply, but he definitely talks about it in lectures about how the first time they started

experimenting with LSD, he was involved with that. And he named. That was in his army day, Sue. Yeah. I must not forget that he was put into an army division. where they were doing research into drugs that could enhance soldiers' abilities and they were experimenting with all kinds of stuff.

So my dad was put, obviously, on that specific detail. And I even have these booklets at home. In Toronto, every arrival is a statement, and nothing says it better than this. Cadillac Optic was the number one selling luxury EV in Canada for 2025. Find your rhythm across a seamless 33-inch display and an immersive 19 speaker AKG surround audio system. This city demands agility and optic delivers with precision

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Yeah. And so he was ordering all these drugs for what was the purpose of it? Well, I mean, it was for the military. So obviously they didn't want to turn their soldiers into hippies. They wanted to turn them into, you know, fucking anti-war. Yeah. So they were doing all these experiments. What's that movie with, I forget,

name of it where they're experimenting on doing all these experiments on on on people and trying to get make him psychic what's the name of that film the manisteric goats yeah manistering goats right yeah pretty much that it's pretty much that was what he what he was doing wow yeah but that was because he was you know he was drafted that wasn't voluntary and when he came out of course he was still he still had his research lab in maine and he did a lot of experiments there too but I don't think he went on with the LSD or any other drugs. He was just mentally interested in the mushroom. Well, the thing was, it was the oil of the aminita muscaria mushroom.

You take the oil of it and you rub it into your forehead. And that is apparently what enables the connection to happen where somebody becomes more receptive. According to who? Well, according to him. Did he discover this? like in Mexico or something? Or was it what was this part of like some tribal ritual?

I think it was a ritual, yeah, that he brought back and was and was Trump experimenting with at his lab. Yeah. That's bonkers, dude. Yeah. And that's a weird mushroom too, if you look it up. The Amanita. Yeah.

There's some people connected to so many different myths. Exactly. Yeah. Some guy wrote a book about it. He's probably heard of this guy. I can't remember his name, but he kind of took on. the mushroom research Buharich was doing

to present day and he writes about it and he's alive today yeah yeah what's his name I'll remember but yeah he kind of like took the torch there

and he's doing a bunch of experiments with the Aminita muscarium so yeah well there's that book Road to Illusis by Carl Ruck and Watson Gordon Watson and where they basically make the case

that like all the elucinian mysteries that were happening in ancient Greece were like drug like these uh there was this thing that they were drinking and uh it was somehow psychedelic and it was some it was like somehow related to like the origins of religion and uh like if you think about like some of the crazy stuff that you read in these ancient texts like it seems almost like psychedelic trip like a psychedelic trip oh yeah is it harry stone there you go is harry stone the guy you were talking about

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's also... So, Aldous Huxley was one of my dad's friends as well. Really? Yeah, he used to come up to the lab. No way. Aldous Huxley held me when I was babies.

The story they always told me. That's a cool story. Yeah, cool story. I don't remember it, though. There's a bunch of letters between them from back then. So all of these documents and these tapes that you got. Is this stuff that

would be considered classified by the government? Or that it wouldn't be happy that you have? No, I actually gave all of it to Northwestern University and they're archiving it and it's going to be public. Oh, no way.

Yeah. Everything I had. But is this the stuff that you think that they were trying to destroy or they didn't want to get out there? I think they were basically, I mean, as I said earlier, It was basically about the ELF stuff at the time. The ELF stuff.

The ELF stuff. That's why the house was put down. And all the documents and the recordings that you guys have that you were able to get. That's basically all the channeling stuff where they're talking to the nine. Well, it's a lot of stuff. I mean, so there's stuff that I've acquired that wasn't in the archives that you had. And that stuff could potentially be of concern. You know, there's a researcher named Dick Russell.

Do you know him? He sounds familiar. Yeah, he wrote a really good book about JFK assassination and he's been around for a while, but he knew Buharach really well and he went to devotion, North Carolina where Biharuch was living before he passed away and he like photocopied all these documents that were sitting around. Did I tell you about this? Because he basically he went to his house and the caretaker at the time, who I don't remember who it was, who was living with, Andrea said, you know, it seems as days are numbered and you should just copy everything you can because we don't know what's going to happen to it.

So he copied just everything he could kind of get his hands on. And a lot of that stuff were correspondence and documents between Andrea and all these kind of people he was involved with throughout his career, intelligence people. Like the stuff that I found, I told you the Alan Dulles correspondence was from that. So there's that stuff that wasn't in the personal archive. In the personal one, yeah, it was a lot of the tape recordings. But, you know, who's to say, I mean, maybe, because no one's really listened to it before other than really. You. Yeah.

So no, so who's to say that? I mean, I agree. I mean, I don't think it's obviously I'm not like a wanted person here. I mean, but who's to say that? that stuff couldn't contain potentially classified material information. I don't know because I don't think people know what's what's in there and what's on them. Oh, you found a lot of stuff. Yeah.

You did some incredible research and you found a lot of stuff in there that I never knew about. Yeah. But there's references in the channeling tapes to Russia and different countries in Israel. So, you know, who, again, it was so long ago, I kind of think like why would that matter now? but maybe maybe it's It seemed like from It seemed like from the stuff that I heard

It seemed to be very much related to Like geopolitical conflicts Right like yeah This is gonna happen We need to do this or something like that Yeah exactly yeah During the Middle East war Yeah

So I mean One Thought too is you know The idea of Because there's so many tapes That were saved And I often think like What

Of course you want to they're your tapes you recorded them but it's kind of interesting to think that those were kept all these years you know um i don't know what the end goal of that was you know right as where they recorded to be given to somebody were they recorded just so he could have them i mean i don't know my dad was a very scientific he recorded everything he noted down everything in his journals very specifically and with dates and everything. You know, I mean, he was a scientist, so he didn't. He kept records of everything.

Fortunately, you know, because you were able to listen to it and decipher a lot of it. But yeah, I think, to answer your question, yeah, I think we don't know. Maybe there could certainly be stuff within there that would be considered classified or would be considered dangerous. But you think that the EL,

F stuff was the most sensitive shit that they were probably trying to keep under wraps more than anything. Well, specifically when the house was burned down, I mean, after that, you know, my dad would get all upset when he had a flat tire and he'd say that the CIA was behind it, you know. Right. That was obviously bullshit, you know. But the house burning down, that was real. And, you know, I only know what I know.

And Greg's done a lot. a digging maybe he found some more something so after the house burned down you were already back in the states right i was back in the netherlands oh you're back in the netherlands at what point did you come back here to spend to spend time with your dad uh well he spent he spent a couple of years in mexico and actually hooked up with a bunch of yogis because at that point he was obviously there was a lot of channeling going on and information i've gotten through that uh was going to be a world ending event and he had to gather these people and go to a certain spot in Mexico and they were you know that kind of stuff survive the the catastrophe whatever and I was I was

with him in Mexico for about three months oh really yeah it was cool I learned yoga really yeah what were you guys doing down there every day just hanging out this you know camping out yeah camping out and preparing for the end. And there was a specific date when it was all going to end. When was the date? Was it Easter? I'm terrible at dates.

I'm terrible. But listen, that happened like three times since I know my dad. We were, you know, somewhere and he had gotten this information that that world was going to end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were preparing.

And he was going to have to pick up the pieces and stuff like that, you know. And, yeah, now we're still here and we're worried about, you know, it happening tomorrow, right? It was Y2K and it was also supposed to be this past Easter. The world was supposed to end. I've gotten a little skeptical.

I've sat through many end of the world events. But, you know, and then he came back and he lived in devotion for many years. That's where he eventually died too. Where is that? North Carolina. And were you with him in this final years? I was with him once in a while. I was still living in the Netherlands.

I had my life there, but I would come and visit a lot and take care of him. I would chop wood for him. But, you know, he was then still investigating a lot of stuff. But he got pretty sick at the end, and he had dementia, and he didn't do much work after that. He tried to warn people for it. And he was making this watch, which was going to protect you against the ELF signal. but that was like a business forum. I'm not sure if that ever really worked.

So in the later years of his life, he didn't really do much interesting stuff anymore. So, and he was haunted by the CIA. Did you find anything from those years? I mean, we'd go around a lecture a lot. But did you find interesting documents? Well, no, of course there's the theory that he, his death was caused by, you know, someone who did not want him around and... How did he die?

They found him at the bottom of the stairs. Either he had a heart attack or he fell down the stairs. He had a big hole in his head. So we never was never really determined exactly how he died. How old was he? 76. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you believe that there was any foul play in that or do you think it was natural? I think it was natural. Yeah. He didn't really. It didn't seem like at that age when he's not active in his research, it doesn't seem like they would be like trying to whack him, you know? Well, there is a- What do I know? There's a strange connection, which is there's a documentary called about Jakobo Grinberg.

Have you heard of him? No. He's a Mexican researcher. He was very involved in the same kind of stuff, telepathy, ESP. You should bring something up on this guy because the film's really good, but basically here he is here, Mexican neurophysiologist. So he was very involved in this type of research. And he and Pujaharach were very close.

And in fact, Andy and... It goes like a cult leader. Yeah, they got together in Mexico a couple times. point of the story is in February, in January of 95, which was a month, less than a month before Pujaharach passed away, this guy disappeared. And to this day, and if you watch the documentary about him, which is really good, they have not figured out what's happened to this guy. It's still considered like an open, missing person situation. They have no idea what happened to him and he was very closely working with Buharaj and just in he disappeared no one knows what

happened there's all these theories you know he's kidnapped and he's living in some you know CIA bunker and doing research for them but it's very odd and I'm not suggesting the foul play thing with Buharaj I'm just saying it was if you look up the dates it was like within a month if not less than a month that this guy goes missing Buharach you know dies, the Stargate program, which was investigating psychic phenomena with the government, that, you know, that comes out publicly in 95 as well. Oh, really? That's when that was released?

All the information on Stargate. So that was with the same time, I think, again, you can look at the dates, but it was that January, February, March, 95. So, again, I don't want to be the conspiracy guy here. No, I mean, it's just interesting coincidence. Just dots to put together. But I have not found anything when it comes to Andrea that would suggest foul play. No one's ever.

I think one person told me, oh, yeah. He wasn't a threat anymore. I mean, he was walking around in diapers, you know. He wasn't a threat. Wasn't a threat to anybody. Yeah. So I would, I would. Do you think there was any sort of like secrets he may have held on to until the end that he may have never told anybody?

I doubt it. Be quite honest. because he would still go around a lecture a lot, and he would, you know, he would elaborate on everything he had done. It was an open book, huh? Yeah, he was pretty much an open book. I have a comment on that because, you know, in the film, in the beginning, there's a tape recording of Pujaharich that you hear.

And that was done in 1995, which was the year he died. He died. And that tape was recorded by Dick Russell, this researcher, it tells you who went to the house and photocopied everything. He went to the hospital and said, you know, I want to get one last interview with this guy because, you know, I think at the time Dick Russell was trying to write a book about MK Ultra stuff. So he was like, I want to interview this guy, Bahrirch because, I mean, A, he's not well.

B, he's very important. Someone needs to get one last statement from him. So he gave me that tape. And on that tape, he basically asked. like the same question you ask in a sense, like is there anything you haven't said or do you know things that should be revealed? And Puharaj answers and he says, yeah, it's my,

it's what I discovered of how you can channel and communicate with ETs using the Faraday Cage method. And that's... Was that a secret? No, because obviously he was open about it, but I think there was something specific about about the fair a certain way you set up the Faraday cage that was very the and the TD machine that there's some TV machine the TD 100 machine from early

the hearing machine so there's some weird combination between putting someone in a Faraday cage having them linked up to this hearing machine and and channeling and receiving information there's some weird something happens with that combination that he's claiming on this tape is a way that is like a, you know, surefire way you can communicate and contact entities and other dimensions. And he says, this is the thing that the government was all over me about. And again, is he... Did you say that on tape? Yeah.

Okay. So is he out of his mind? This is recorded. Yes. You have this. Yes. Can we hear it? Well, I don't have it now.

I mean, I can, yeah, we can, I can show you. But so. again, that raises some questions. You know, was he just old delusion? But or did he really see this as an opportunity to say one final thing like that? I don't know. But all I know is Dick Russell wanted to record him when he was very at the end of his life. And he says this.

And what do you make of that? But that's kind of interesting because my dad never was in the hospital. Well, he went there one time, I think, before he was. let go and went back home because you can clear you can hear the you know the machines in the background and the dinging and he was there with that woman um um marianne field remember that woman marian she was like a psychic that oh my she she she was with him right so apparently there was some incident before he passed away where he had to go for a day or something and get an iv or something like that okay so so that that's what i

know is that true is that really i don't know but he he's kind of admitting like that's the one thing that's real and tangible that he sort of discovered and the fair day cage idea to me is so wild because like one of my out there theories about all this stuff is that like all the technology were surrounded by 24-7 and like the fucking cell towers that are around us and all the power lines and all the lighting and electricity we're surrounded by sort of like dims our senses and like keeps us docile and maybe like shuts the door to any kind of like extra thing that might be out there that we can sense right and I think like my conspiratorial mind is like maybe that's on purpose they're just trying to keep us dumb and concealed so we can't you know reach a higher consciousness

and it's just so interesting because you hear stories people going like the amazon and like all of a sudden, like, their senses open up and they can like, just by listening to the sounds of the birds and the insects and all that, they can, like, detect things that they wouldn't normally be able to detect or, like, sense danger in a certain way they could never detect in a city. And the fact that you can put somebody in a Faraday cage completely shut out from all of that stuff, like technology and radio waves and signals. You should build one. It's just very interesting. It's very interesting. You should make this whole room of Faraday. That would be incredible. We should do that.

But we wouldn't have Wi-Fi. Stephen. Oh, he can hardwire your computer, right? Some people can't handle that. I've heard stories like, I mean, you've actually been in your dad's Faradick, which is crazy. But, you know, some people can't handle it. They go in and it's so quiet that they just like shut down.

They can't be in there. But because of how different and just how off they feel. Yeah. Because it's so quiet. They're not, you're like you're saying, we're so bombarded all the time that. I'd be curious to see what would happen. Well, it also, it leaves room for whatever other things that come through that are not affected by physiology, by our physics, the mind. I mean, that's obviously why my dad did those experiments in the Faraday cage to see if people, you know, would get images through their mind.

And that works. That certainly works because you have shielded from everything. else. Right. So the stuff that's, you know, from a different dimension or whatever, that does pass through. That's what makes it really interesting. How do you build a fairty case? Oh, it's very simply. Just make a copper sheeted box. My dad used to put some, I think, a high frequency signal on it, but I don't even think you need it. You need to ground it. Okay. It's very basic, really. But it has to be totally sealed shut. So nothing to no. No. leaks or anything. Did you ever go in his? Oh yeah all the time. Really? Oh yeah all the time. I used to sit

there and meditate. It was incredible. Yeah, what was it? Yeah, very quiet. Very quiet and very, you know, you feel like, I mean, I can imagine why people would get upset because you feel totally alone and isolated. But if you meditate, you, you know, it feels really, really good. So, and it was soundproofed as well. So it was really a very quiet spot to be in. But he did a lot of sessions with mediums in there. So a lot of, most of the channeling he did would do, would be in the Faraday Cage for that reason. See, the thing that is not talked about a lot is my dad was obviously also a very spiritual man because he pretty much discovered that everything that makes psychic powers possible is the part of us that we call soul or conscious or whatever.

You know, that's the main thing that makes us what we are. You know, everything else around it is, I don't know what you called it earlier. It's just, you know. Yeah, one of the most interesting things that I think Esauk Bentoff said was that we don't have souls, souls have us. And we're like bodies are like carburetors for a car. Like a soul will change its carburetor. every hundred years and find a new body. Exactly.

That was kind of, that kind of blew my mind a little bit. Oh, man, that's very interesting to think about, you know. I mean, you know, what are we? Are we obviously animals, but we're obviously also animals with incredible capabilities. And, you know, the boundary between us and animals is enormous. There's obviously something there that makes us special. And the soul is omnipowerful. I mean, and that's the thing that can bend metal

if you can set yourself free enough to allow that to happen, which is incredibly hard. So we are kind of imprisoned. Soul is imprisoned in the body. But the soul is en route. The soul is the thing that consciousness is what the universe is made of. That's what my dad told me.

It's consciousness. We're all looking at the stars and now we're looking at the backside of the moon. And it's all very interesting. But he said the whole universe is made of consciousness. It's conscious that creates matter. Yes, yes. Yeah, it certainly makes a ton of sense.

And it's also very interesting how, like, young children are more open to this stuff than, like, adults. Exactly. Because we get boxed in by our own thoughts and by our own perceptions. They've already been hardened to the world and had their reality constructed for them. And like kids who, you know, they seem to have like more kind of like, you know how kind of like sometimes like a cat will freak out us at something because like, you know, something's in a room. You'll think like, oh my God, my cat's seeing a ghost, you know. And like dogs can sense things. Like sometimes dogs don't want to be around certain people or go in certain houses or even if humans.

You can, I'm sure there's times you've walked into a room and felt like the energy is just off here, you know. Like that's certainly real with animals, it seems like. And I'm sure, like, a young child who has not been sort of indoctrinated by the modern world yet or even learned language yet can somehow tap into that same stuff, you know? There's a lot of children that have recollection of past lives. Oh, yeah, yeah. Which they lose very early on in life. But young children often have, you know, vivid images of lives. Well, that was a big part of the research with the space kids.

Yeah. This idea that under hypnosis, they would reveal this past life of being from another planet. That was a big aspect of my dad's work really was, you know. I don't know if you know about the space kids program. Yeah, who were the space kids? Space kids were basically mostly young people. That's why they're called kids, that he would meet. that would have certain abilities

and he wanted to develop them and basically he had them come together at his house in awesening and tried to educate him and took him in the Faraday Cades, did sessions with him, put him in trans to see what they would reveal.

But basically he thought these kids had extra powers or whatever and he wanted to use them use in quotes, educate them in how to make a transformation in the world of some kind. But this was also all channeled to him that he should do these things and get these groups together. I was in one of these space kids groups myself once, one summer. And, you know, he had people come in that taught us about our dreams, taught it about hypnosis,

taught us about the soul what we really are. And, you know, he tried to educate these young people's. And then later on, and that was the mind-link summer that I wasn't there, that I didn't attend, that you talk about in the documentary a lot. Yeah. It was basically this big group of space kids and adults and other researchers.

They all joined at Ossining at his house, and they did this big mind link where apparently they, and I don't know if you experienced this part of it, but they would do, yeah, these sessions where they would go like days without talking to one another and they would just try to build up. Two of their minds. They wanted to literally link their minds

for what was the purpose. Do you know specifically? Well, the purpose that we suspect from looking at his writings and so forth, is basically like they thought that with enough people in a circle with all of their minds tuned to the right frequency at the right time that that could bring in a stronger connection to you know an entity in another dimension and the person sitting in the middle was the receiver so all the people around were putting the energy to that person in the middle and apparently

there's stories that it was so intense that the first woman who was going to be the receiver in the middle, like fainted and had needed medical attention. So they had to bring in a younger person to do it. So that, all that, those stories make you just question like, what's, what's going on here, you know, like, why would this be this hoaxed, you know, event? It's just strange. Well, like, and then there's also videos of, of exorcists, like, pulling demons out of people on stage, you know, and like people, like, you see the videos of the guy who like,

who like goes attack demon or whatever and like throws this invisible force at these people. And their belief is so strong in like demons and angels and all this stuff. This guy is fucking convinced them that they have a demon or whatever. And then he like cast the demon away and the person will literally fall like fly 10 feet backwards. Yeah. You know, it's like the power of belief is so incredibly strong. You know, it's like what the mind is capable of. It's like almost impossible. possible to comprehend, like how much of this is, is just insatiable belief in something. Yeah, this.

This guy, bro. I don't think this was necessarily happening. And, uh, but there's also videos of like Bob, you know, Bob Larson, this exorcist guy we had on who would do exorcisms on people. Right. And, and, and like. like picking people out of the crowd and like this young girl would like start talking in tongues like like like Satan is like channel like they're channeling Satan and it's like is this person really just acting for the camera or is that do they actually believe because this exorcist is there telling them they're possessed by the devil is this some sort of like subconscious thing that's like coming forth you know I don't know yeah well and it's strange and to give a more concrete example of like what they were done doing that the mind link and the group the space kids like you know bouchard should often talk about this idea that he was receiving higher physics from these entities and and that he certain people like

we talked about this woman sharon who was this psychic that he worked with who apparently was very you know like much better than a lot of the other people who were there at receiving and and she would bring through equations and physics and things that Pujahar, I think, believed were a higher form or a different type of physics that was coming from another world. And he felt as though if he could get more and enough of it, that he could write it all down and make sense of it and sort of usher in this whole new way of thinking about the universe and thinking about, okay, this is how the communication works between us and these entities. So a lot of time, these space kids would channel like weird information equations and things that had to do with technology and weird formulas.

And I think a big part of it was Buharad saying, let me try to make sense of this and let me try to get more of this. Yeah. But that goes right to your point is like, and that's the weird thing about the channeling that I always thought is like, how is a, you know, 22 year old girl sitting there and just in dissent? okay i guess i'm just going to make all this stuff up now and just start saying it i mean it's possible but it just seems odd like there's something else going on i don't know what is it a being talking through her i know i don't know but it does seem like there's something weird with the mind and the people and the connection and something because i just find it unlikely you know again we were talking like a lot of channel stuff i'm sure is is bogus but i just find it unlikely that a lot of these people especially

back then. Yeah. The people he was working with were just like making it. That's it. That's the answer. They were all just making it up. And some of the stuff, I just think, even people who were around back then would say, like, oh, this woman was no way she wouldn't be able to even like come up with this kind of thing.

You know, with all due respect, she's just not smart, intelligent enough to just make stuff up like this. So it's very complex. Yeah. So I just don't rule it all away with. it's just people making it out. Wasn't there some connection to Tesla? Wasn't he writing Tesla or something?

No? Yeah. Did I make that up? No, no. No, no. Obviously, my dad was really interested in the work of Nikola Tesla and all the technology that he came up with. The manuscript we're talking about the ELF is called

Tesla's magnifying transmitter. And the ELF, because that's basically what that transmitter was, was a Nikola Tesla invention. You know, and Tesla, I mean, that's, you know, there's a lot of mysteries about Tesla as well. What did he invent? Did he, you know, did he take inventions through the grave? Did, were all of his inventions taken by the government? Right.

You know, and all that stuff. Well, there's that whole weird Trump connection is, what was it, his uncle or something? Oh, yeah, Trump's uncle. Yeah. Yeah, he was connected to Townsend Brown. Yeah, and he took all these Tesla patents or something. I can't remember the exact connection, but it was either his uncle or something.

Yeah, it was his uncle. Yeah, it came into possession of all these Tesla patents that no one has ever had before. He's the one who somehow has them now. Yeah, he was connected. Dude, Trump's uncle was connected to, like, all these people in, like, aerospace research, including, like, Townsend Brown,

who created this way, this propulsion called electrogravittics. which was like, I can't even explain it in words, but it's like basically, you know, it has a lot to do with like how the stealth bomber was engineered and all this stuff. And allegedly there's claims that a lot of it went dark and went like private into like the military, like black budget sector that doesn't see the light of day.

I personally did a lot of research into Tesla. I even wrote a film script about him. I went to all the places where he worked and where he was born. and where he lived. Really? Yeah. I did a lot of research.

What I came up with is that, you know, obviously at the end of his life or during his life, he was always depending on funding, right? Because he didn't make any money he needed his research to be funded. And what happens is you always make the story a little better when you're looking for funding, right? Because you want the funding. And he was very dramatic.

He would put on these big shows, and he would, you know, display all these. things he was working on. But a lot of it kind of never really worked, but he was just trying to get funding. So he kind of exaggerated his findings and the technology. And I think a lot of that's been blown out of proportion. Yeah. You know, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I think that happened. I've seen my dad do exactly the same thing. He was working on his water splitting invention where he said he worked on it for a long time he had this he was splitting uh water into oxygen and hydrogen uh where you know you put in less energy than came out so it's like almost a free

energy device and he worked out for a long time i worked on on that with him and i know that in the at the end the results were not what he was looking for yeah but he was being backed by certain people so he kind of manipulated the outcome a little bit. And that's when I saw how that mechanism works. You know, you're trying to get funding. Right. And you exaggerate it a little bit. Right.

Now you can read on the internet everywhere that my dad did this invention and, you know, and there's a lot of people trying to copy it. It's basically using water as fuel. Using water as fuel? That was the gist of it is basically you could power your automobile with. Well, yeah. I mean, if you, if you split hydrogen into, I mean, water into hydrogen and oxygen, you have the best fuel there is.

You know, hydrogen burns with oxygen, and the result is water. Problem is you have to put in so much energy to split it that it's not worth doing it. I mean, they make hydrogen by electrolysis. I think that's what's called in English, electrolysis. Electrolysis. Electrolysis, right. So my dad wasn't inventing a way of putting, you know, using his TD 100 device. to split water in a more economical way,

so you would get energy. Wow. And people claim, like, I never saw any evidence to this, but that he was driving around his RV. Yeah, well, that's the story he said. He was driving his RV around Canada, Mexico, powered by water? Yeah.

On the water. But unfortunately, it wasn't true. It was not true. Well, the big conspiracy is that guy who did invent some sort of water-powered car was found killed. Was blacked. Yeah. Stanley something.

Yeah. But I think, if I'm not mistaken, what Andreo was doing was much before this. He could have somehow ripped off, taken what he was doing. Listen, his research, I mean, it was really good, and I worked on the project with him. And, you know, we were machine parts together and stuff and, you know, come up with new ways of experimenting. But, you know, the amount of an, and eventually we went to some university. I forget where it was, to have the whole system tested with machines

that were calibrated properly, so you could get a real truthful reading on the amount of energy you were putting in and the amount of energy you're putting out. And I remember well how depressed my dad was because the results were not good. Yeah. You know, so, you know, a lot of stuff.

And I think the same thing happened with tests. I think a lot of his so-called incredible inventions that were, you know, never replicated, were kind of blown out of proportions by him himself. Wasn't Tesla able to create like an earthquake device that like resonated and could bring down a building? Yeah. But that's... Was that fake or was that real? No, that's real.

That's regular physics. You can do that. You can make something resonate if you find the right frequency. Yeah, I heard a story that were doing a test or something, like in the bottom of a building and it started to collapse on that? Yeah, in New York. That was a New York. That was real.

That's a true story. Yeah, and he smashed the device to stop it because he had built a device which was basically working by itself. I mean, resonant frequency is really interesting. That's what the TD 100 device is about. You know, if you can get something to resonate in its own frequency,

it's going to fall apart eventually. And you can, you know... Wow. I mean, it's really interesting stuff, definitely. But there's so many... big labs all over the world experimenting with this stuff. And, you know, nobody's come up with a true free energy device so far that we know of. That we know of.

True. That I will not deny. And that's what leads to all the crazy conspiracy theories, you know, surrounding Tesla, right? Because if he was able to create shit like that, that's not something you hear about today. Like, who uses a fucking earthquake machine? You know, I mean, I can imagine what it could be used for, like in a nefarious way. by like a nation state or something or like stuff like that but like how did Tesla die? Alone in his hotel room.

But it was raided, right? That's the story. Well, afterwards he was, he probably was rated by officials or whatever. He took all his documents. So is there like a conspiracy behind how he was killed? Like was he? You would know better than that. He was a very old sick man.

He was? Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. He was really old and he wasn't doing anything anymore. He was going out and feeding the pigeons every day. Yeah. You know, that kind of scenario. Yeah, one of the, another, you know, on the subject of like how the truth can get blown out of proportion over time is I had this gentleman on the podcast a couple of years ago. Christopher Dunn, who wrote a book about, called the Giza Power Plant, basically how he thinks like the Great Pyramid was like some sort of a machine to create energy.

This guy was like a, he was an aerospace engineer. And, you know, when he first discovered the pyramid and looked at like the inside of it and all the chambers and how it was built. He's like, oh, my God. He's like, this thing is like a functional. This thing was built as to for some purpose. And it had some function. Like this was a clearly a machine. And there he found there's a lot of theories out there that like Tesla was obsessed with the pyramids and people think that they were like a free energy device or whatever.

Then he like dug deeper into it. And I think he said there was absolutely zero. connection between Tesla and the pyramids. Oh, yeah. Like, yeah, that was one of the shocking things to me. He's like, yeah, he's like, I've found no evidence that Tesla was ever interested in the pyramids or even went to the pyramids at all. I haven't found any evidence.

And I'm like, wow, because you Google Tesla in the pyramids, the shit's everywhere. Yeah. My dad's, my dad was very interested in the pyramids. He was actually able to spend a couple of nights alone in the pyramid of Giza. Yeah, yeah, there's a crazy frequency inside. I've heard. Yeah, he wanted to feel and measure. We have the tapes.

He recorded himself in the pyramid. And he did a channeling session with a space kid. Yeah. In the pyramid. In like one of the chambers? Like the king's chamber? So they're in the king's chamber. He was with, it was him.

It was Solvei Clark who was a woman who was, I don't know if we would say an assistant. Assistant and they were engaged at some point. Yeah. She was like a help helped him with stuff. And so it was Poharach, her, and then this space kid who's this woman who at the time was named Anne, she's since changed her name. She's actually in the film. She's one of the spaces kids. But they went and they did a session in there and they were trying to telepathically link with the people back in Austining at his house.

So the session is basically this space kid linking up. with people back there and they were exchanging information and she was recorded yeah and she was saying like i can i can see them now and what are they doing and melanie they say um everything's uh fine here and they're they're communicating yeah and you know his theory of course too is like you're saying because of the frequency in the in the pyramid that is sort of like a mega faraday cage effect where it's just like, you know, the Faraday Cage effect times a million because you're in there. And so that made them like super receptive. Well, you know that the pyramid was originally covered in copper, right?

No. Yeah. I mean, now... Is that a fact? Yeah, I think that's a fact. I'm not positive. But I think that they found that originally it was totally covered in copper. And of course, all the copper was stolen over the years.

Well, that's really interesting because that's... You should look that up. I heard that there were casing stones on the outside of it. I didn't hear that there was copper. Well, because copper is the whole thing with the Faraday cage. And apparently the nine in the early channeled sessions, the nine would say you have to use more copper. And copper is the key to this kind of communication.

And so much so that they would say, if you're the psychic you're working with, they should put on a copper bracelet. I built all the, I was the one making all the copper bracelet. Yeah, because it's. The copper's in connection with your skin that's enabling the communication to happen easier with less, you know, better transmission.

So all these people were in this little bracelet that had like a copper little rectangle that was connected to their skin. Really? So, I mean, that pyramid, I never knew about that pyramid thing. That's pretty interesting. Yeah, I can't, and I'm not sure if I heard this correct you, if I'm recalling it collectively, but I think you look that up. He's looking it up.

So, well, I'll show you what the AI shows. Steve's an AI guy. Oh, that's cool. But I did find some stuff about that the Egyptians did use a shit ton of copper enough that it polluted their area. Yeah, copper was one of the metals they used for tools and stuff. Copper. They had copper tools and pounding stones.

Allegedly, that's how they built the pyramid. Yeah, right. And Buharge was also very early on. talking about the pyramid connection, you know, like the one in China, you know, Egyptian pyramids and these different ones around the globe and how they're all connected. And that kind of thing, which I think is now being talked about a lot more and looked into. Like he was talking about that in early 70. I'm really curious, Steve, what can you find? Like, is there any, like, known sort of effect of copper on skin?

Like if you wear copper jewelry, is there any sort of like, I don't know, like benefits or like health benefits or sort of like... Well, don't you remember when the pandemic was going on, apparently if you use copper, copper repels any germs. Really? Yeah. I have never heard that. Oh, yeah. You never heard that? No. Have you heard that? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Copper, if you wear copper, the germs will not stick to copper.

copper. They don't like it. Tell me if I'm lying. That could be wrong. But I remember I made this little copper stick at the time that I would use to touch things in the beginning when I was very paranoid. Yeah. Yeah. All this space kit, I mean, one of them. Copper is a really interesting metal. I mean, it has all these spectacular properties that have been used all over the place.

Any luck, Steve? Let me a copper conspiracy, bro. There's something about copper that's very. very important too. Copper does not have widely proven physiological benefits. Steve's like a, he's a Google bootlicker. He just likes to find whatever the consensus is at Google AI. Copper does not have any proven physiological benefits when worn as jewelry,

though it is a potent antimicrobial and effectively kills most germs on contact. What? Yeah, there you go. A metal kills germs? Yeah. Why am I just learning this today? I don't. Okay. Copper is an essential trace mineral for human health when ingested,

aiding in red blood cell formation and bone health. The benefits of wearing are largely anecdotal and not supported by rigorous scientific evidence. Pain in arthritis, clinical trials have repeatedly shown that copper bracelets are generally ineffective in managing pain, stiffness, or physical function in patients with osteoarthritis or rheumatoid arthritis. Hmm, skin health. Some studies on copper infused fabrics like socks or pillow cases suggest that they can improve skin elasticity, reduce fine lines, and even treat fungal infections like athletes. That is bizarre.

Yeah. So I think that the Faraday cage that was used during these channeling sessions was lined with copper. So what's that about? that that's interesting copper's weird huh it's a great insulator

basically not much can get through all our wires are made a copper to myself good interesting you guys definitely got to copper shit wear copper clothes line your whole line your whole studio

with copper red you definitely got to build a ferretic agent that would be cool but I don't know the logistics of doing that is there any downside other than the price of turning this into a Faraday cage.

I don't know if phones would work out there. Like a freestanding one. Yeah. No one's cell phone will work in here. Right. They don't have to turn them off anymore. That's cool. Right.

That's very cool. There's a guy out there who I got connected with who's trying to replicate a lot of the Faraday K-G-SP experiments. And he was wanting to see some of the early research Buharach did in his documents because he was, he was one of these guys that was connected with Skywatcher, you know, the whole eye watcher thing. It was popular. It kind of faded out.

It was like last year, the psionic assets. Oh, yes. Yes, I remember that. It was a guy involved with that, and he was very interested

in the Faraday Cage stuff. And he was like, I want to look at the original design of Buharge's Faraday Cage, because I, and apparently had money. He's like, I want to replicate this

and try to do these experiments. And I don't know where it went, but he was very serious about it. So, interesting. Because that's what's interesting too. I mean, just, you know, a lot of people, you don't see people doing these kinds of experiments anymore. You know, psychic kids and Faraday cages and all that complicated.

All you just need is a metal casing. And if something is totally in case and metal, nothing will get through. And copper is really good, is really a good metal to use for it. I would love to see a Faraday cage censor. deprivation tank all in one. What would that? That would probably fucking teleport your ass to another dimension. Yeah.

I wonder if anyone's ever done that, bro. And then combine that with like, you know, some psychedelic mushrooms or something or even marijuana, I'm sure it would be nuts. Yeah. Because John Lilly was, he invented the sensory deprivation tank, I think, right? Really?

There's a whole documentary about that. Yeah, a friend of mine did one of those for the first time recently. It was saying it was just, mind blowing yeah the sensory deprivation thing never done it yeah i've never done it either but i would be super i would certainly be interested in it for sure yeah um yeah and so in the fair day cage channeling sessions um i don't remember if i asked you this already but like how much what how much were psychedelics incorporated into those if ever never never Maybe. I mean, obviously people that showed up on my dad's house were using marijuana.

I mean, you know. Right, right. It's popular. Yeah, very popular in the time. And my dad was opposed to it. Oll. But, yeah, I'm sure it's been used. And of course, you know, talk about the mushroom. Right. And, you know, here's the book. And wasn't there somebody involved in all of this that was connected to Bell Laboratories or something? Yeah, Arthur Young. Right.

Okay. Yeah. What was his connection? He was part of the Roundtable Foundation in the early 50s. Oh, okay. So he was there at the lab a lot, and he was part of the early experiments. He was sitting in on a lot of the sessions. But, you know, to go back to the whole origin of the nine and the conspiracies, Arthur Young, he was married to...

You might have to look this up, Steve, because I don't... sure i'm correct he was married to ruth forbes pain who was the the woman who lee harvey oswald was living at her house and he has some very bizarre connection to oh i remember we talked about this le harb arswald and so people think oh you know this is somehow tied into the jfk assassination and crazy stuff but who but yeah young was married to this is not in the film this connection now no no levenda peter levenda that author he writes He told me this. He writes tons of stuff about this. I was like wondering. I'm like, this feels like deja vu. I remember Pete LeVendez

told me this story. Yeah. And so Young was connected to somebody who was extremely connected to Lee Harvey Oswald. And so there's that whole thing. But no, he was just like a new age kind of researcher who he invented the Bell helicopter, very connected guy. He went on to start this consciousness research society in Berkeley and everything. But he was involved very early on. In fact, in some of those early channeling tapes with Dr. Vinod, you can hear him asking questions. Oh, really? Yeah. Okay.

I didn't know that. And isn't there some sort of connection with all this and this, the Montauk thing, in Montauk, New York or something? Well, yeah, I guess like people, yeah, so this, you know, the stranger things, the show is apparently based off the Montauk program or Montauk project, which is Montauk, New York, Long Island. and apparently there was some facility there that was some government facility that was doing research with kids

and psychic kids and teleportation and the whole Philadelphia experiment and teleporting. I mean, Tesla had something to do with that, right? The teleporting the ship. You hear that story? I'm not sure if Tesla was actually involved with that, but it was...

It's based maybe on something. Annie Jacobson writes about... in her phenomena book about the Philadelphia experiment, how they were doing crazy tests on sailors. Yeah, that's what it was. Like shooting them with directed energy weapons. I really have to go to the... Yeah, for sure, yeah.

We'll be right back. So when I was trying to make this film, you know, one of my first thoughts was, okay, let's try to get a hold of these space kids. Yeah. Because at the time in the 70s, they were teenagers, but it was actually difficult. I mean, so Heidi was one of like,

10 because in one of barges notebooks he had a list of all the people who were there at the time so i did basically just went through and was like okay google facebook trying to find people but only a few of them were willing to to talk really really a reason the film actually took so long is that it really took a while to earn the trust of some of these space because you know they haven't come out before to tell this story they've never been public Was there anyone that you really wanted to talk on film that you couldn't get? Yes. This woman, Sharon, which is a good transition.

This woman, so one of the space kids, so this woman is one of the space kids that was willing to talk, and she's in the film. She's very nice. She was actually at the house during the fire. She had to jump, climb out the window and climb down the roof. And so she had quite an experience. there. But there was one space kid, Sharon, who, if you recall when we talked, I was kind of hesitant

to bring up a certain name of one of the space kids because she was so involved and secretive and all this. But it's this woman Sharon who has changed her name many times. I think back then it was Sharon Jacobson, but I know at one point she went by McCann. Her maiden name is McCann. Yeah, McCann. married. There's a guy called Jacobson.

Yeah. Yeah. So she was one of the space kids who was very involved. There's a lot of pictures of her, but a lot of the channeling tapes is her. It's her voice. It's her doing the channeling. Really? And so many people, and you can, I mean, you knew her, but the point is a lot of people

involved back then, the space kids and some of the scientists like, they thought that she was the equivalent of, you know, 11 from stranger things, you know, this like very talented, legitimate, real psychic who could do things, who could bring in information. So after a certain year, I don't know, 76 or something, she just disappeared. And a lot of people around, I mean, you can comment, we're like, we have no idea what happened to her. We don't know where she went. We've never been able to talk to her. I went to great lengths to try to find this woman. I mean, literally hiring a PI, basically, at one point. Because she's so important because she's on so many tapes.

She was so involved. And I was like, if there's one person to get to talk about this story, to talk about what was really going on, it'd be her. And she's completely mysterious. I've never, no one's ever been able to contact her. So that's one of the people that, like, it'd be so interesting if she saw this film and saw, this or whatever and came out of the woodworks.

Yes, Ron, if you're watching, just come on. Yeah. You know. Well, you met her? He, oh, yeah, yeah, knew her very well. What was she like? What was so special about her? I think basically what was special about her is what she channeled.

I mean, apart from that, she was just a woman with a child and I would go shopping with her, you know. But in the channeling and her channeling, she was. As you say, apparently she had all the scientific information that would be channeled through her. That's what made her special. Yeah, she was the one who was able to bring through this very complex physics. And apparently, for whatever reason, the other space kids couldn't, and she could. She was the only one who in trance in the Faraday cage would bring through very, very advanced information.

And so he, Pujarich, was really like leaning on her a lot to do a lot of these sessions. And then there's stories that she... How old was she at the time? Late 20s. The late 20, mid-late 20s. But then there's stories. I don't know if you know any truth to this that apparently due to the intensity

of the channeling and the session, she had some sort of... Yeah, I was there. Manic break or something. Yeah, she totally fell apart. We had to rush it to the hospital. What? Yeah.

There was talk about negative energy, being influenced, and we were doing a session. There was a lot of us gathered around, and she fell apart. And my father was a medical doctor, but he rushed her to the hospital because she was dying, basically. Yeah, I don't know why. Well, there's this idea that when somebody, so this other channel, Phyllis, the older woman, that he worked with a lot, there's this idea that when you get into the state to channel your body, you know, it's a typical your body's being taken over by an

entity and basically you don't have control over your body or your functions because it's being controlled by an outside entity. So there's stories of this other woman too having similar, I don't know if there's anything that bad, but she would have incidents where she would be, you know, collapse or needed medical attention because she wasn't in control of her of her body while doing these sessions. So Sharon, yeah, she's one of the people that I was like, man, I wish she would have talked, but at the same time, it leaves this mystery now to this story of there's this one space kid who was the best of them all, who was just dropped off the face of the earth who, and everyone, very normal, you know, sane people who knew her who were around,

every one of them was like, yeah, I have no idea what happened to her really strange. How many people did you try to, did you talk to that knew her? Several. Yeah, several. One of the guys in the film, this guy Leon Berg he was a guy from London and he got involved and he was just sort of a helper it wasn't really a psychic or anything but he knew her very well and he was like I'm going to try to find her for you and it was really creepy we did like the classic thing where we found this address on Google Earth that came up on one of these sites as her address and we go to it on Google Earth and it's just this like ramshackled you know how empty

house and it's basically run down and all her other addresses didn't come up with anything. So it's weird. I mean, I don't know what to say other than maybe she just wanted to distance herself and there's no nothing weird about it. But it does seem like she's making a very serious effort to not be discovered or not be looked up. So she's the one that I was like, man, that would be cool. But are there any photos of her anywhere?

Many. They're in the film. Yeah. She has blonde hair. It's very pretty. Can you find them, Steve? I don't, they wouldn't come up on Google. There's nothing.

Oh, no, they're only in your movie. Can't find anything on her, literally. Wow. Yeah. Even this like PI, I mean, I don't know if it's like legal to talk about if what a PI, but I don't, he, even he was like, yeah, I don't, I'm not coming up with anything here. But there's nothing that would indicate that she passed away because, you know, back then she was young. I mean, it's not like now she would be really old. She'd still be.

So she was in her 20s in. What year, what year would that have been? Mid, mid, the late 70s. Yeah, 70s. Or what decade, rather? 70s. Mid to late 70s. Oh, okay.

So that's a thing. And, yeah, I don't know. What, I mean. So when she went to the hospital, what ended up happening? Do you know? Do you remember? Well, they saved her. I mean, obviously.

And she was about to die? Well, yeah, my father couldn't get her vitals back. So holy shit. Yeah, it was real panic. I remember that well. It was a real panic. So, yeah. But, you know, there's, there was a bunch of other space kids that were interesting as well.

Interesting people. Interesting abilities. Well, that goes back to the like, so you're going to, you're going to hoax, you know, almost dying here. You know, so there's so many things that happened in this story that, you know, once you're kind of skeptical all of a sudden you're like well that's a pretty serious event to kind of just yeah have been you know made up but it all goes back to this idea that the body's being taken over kind of like an exorcism thing i guess because it's not you and you're channeling a different different entity and then so forth so so she's somebody who yeah it'd be really interesting if she

came out after all this but who knows yeah like if they're you could have her on if they're channeling, like, I guess they're, they're channeling these, so the nine are what they were channeling? Yes. Okay. Well, Siwan wasn't channeling the nine. She was channeling some other entity. Well, yeah, there was different entities all the time that would sort of come through that had various names that were very kind of sci-fi sounding.

But if I'm not mistaken, the nine were kind of the, they were above everything. Had honchos. Yeah. So even if it was a different entity, it was still all connected. They were above the Rothschilds? Yeah. Wow. That's crazy.

They called me Tesla. They would always, no, seriously. It said I was Nikola Tesla in my past lifetime. I believe it. Yeah, no, I rejected it. My son, my oldest son, who's six, has a girl in his class that says she vividly remembers her past life. She was a dog. and she knows the name of the dog.

I can't remember the name of the dog. Huh. Well, poor dog. She came back as a human. Came back to you and that's such a good life. I've often thought of giving my, I have a two-year-old daughter and giving her a spoon and, you know, seeing if she could bend it somehow.

Did you imagine she starts bending it? Yeah. What the fuck would you do? Yeah, exactly. It's a good question. What would you do? No, the thing I wanted to mention, though, the so the Montauk project yeah so the whole myth behind that is that there was apparently this

government facility in Montauk Long Island where they were experimenting with every weird thing you could imagine teleportation um time travel devices but but they were apparently doing research on kids there psychic kids yeah and that was apparently the basis behind stranger things the show right and there's some guy who claimed to have it's not kind of like Lazar and S-4. There's this guy, his name's Preston Nichols. You can look him up. Preston Nichols.

Yeah, N-I-C-H-O-L-S. He claimed to have worked there. So it's very much like Lazare. He kind of came out and he's like, I worked at this place. I know what was going on. I witnessed a time travel. But, you know, it's just like Lazar. People are all over him.

They think he's full of shit and stuff. But that was the basis of stranger things. But from what I understand, like, there's really no evidence that this Montauk facility was real. Like I think it's all, well, there was a facility there for sure. It's like a building. It's like you can actually go and see it. But there's really no evidence as far as I understand that there was actually this top

secret program happening there. Whereas the Roundtable Foundation that Buharach ran was a very real place where they actually were doing psychic experiments on kids as far. back as the 50s because some of the stuff in his records, which we discovered was that even back in the 50s, it was the Air Force Office of Scientific Research that gave him a grant to do research with these two twins that were apparently psychic. And it was, you know, their father said, my two daughters are psychic. It's kind of like the telepathy tapes kind of stuff. They can read my mind. They know what I'm thinking. They're totally accurate. So,

The Air Force Office of Scientific Intelligence, they came to the Roundtable Lab and funded research with these two girls. And this was like in the 50s. And then there was another instance where it was another young person that came there as well and was studied. And so that's a place where this actually did happen.

I mean, there's documented proof. Whereas I think the Mon-Talk thing, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's never really been anything that proves like that. that there was actually that stuff happening there what is your take on the whole telepathy tapes stuff have you have you are you familiar with the telepathy tapes no it's these children these nonverbal autistic children who are able to communicate telepathically and there's like a whole podcast about it yeah it became very popular i listened to it and i i think that it's i think

there's something there. I mean, I think unfortunately, like all of this stuff, what Pujaharach dealt with decades ago and what is still happening is just the onslaught of skeptics. Beyond telepathy. That's his first book. That's his first book? And it's also been republished

recently. They referenced that and the telepathy tapes a bunch in the first couple episodes. Do they really? Yeah, she talks all about. That's how it all started, you know, in researching people that you were able to do telepathy. And the interesting about telepathy is, of course, that you always need to say. Oh, Mitch Horowitz.

Yeah, he wrote the introduction. He's cool. Well, Danny, I went to say, you know, so my answer to that is I do tend to think that there's some really interesting information that points to that being legitimate, these autistic kids who can somehow communicate nonverbaly. But then you've got, you know, what was it, the mother of one of that? She, she, she, you were, you spoke to her with the test and everything. And, and I, and I think there's situations like that that seem very suspicious. Suspicious and very easily debunked. And like we got into earlier, just people who were kind of getting on that bandwagon.

Yeah. But, and there was a good interview you did with her. Yeah. And there's even, you know, going back to what I said earlier about those mentalist folks, Oz Perlman. Yeah. said that he can do any of the stuff that those telepathy tape kids are doing. Yeah.

He said he can do it, demonstrate it very easily. And he said that, and one of my, my problem with the telepathy tapes is they won't entertain that. They won't entertain a stage magician going in and observing that thing happened because their excuse or whatever, that what they say is, is that that will throw off the energy in the room and then they won't be able to perform their experiments. Well, that's the classic. That's my frustration with the whole telepathy team thing. No, as a story and as a podcast, it was very compelling to listen to. But yeah, I think when it comes to that, okay, let's have somebody challenge this.

And if you're not willing or able to do that, I mean, obviously people are going to jump all over it. So I don't know. I mean, to me, some of this stuff is pretty convincing. But I don't know. There's a documentary coming out about it they made. Really? Yeah, yeah, it's coming out. Interesting.

Yeah, so maybe that will provide further evidence of this, but I know what you mean. There's been multiple things I've heard that they've been challenged to do certain things and they just sort of, they refuse to do it. So I don't know, I've never witnessed it, you know, firsthand myself. So, you know, a big part of the show is they have like the camera crew and the people who are working with these kids are all very skeptical and pretty much all of them come out being like. What's the idea behind?

Because I don't know what's- Well, it's basically this scientist who actually know, is very fond of your dad, Buharj, Diane Powell. I've talked- I've had her on, yeah. Yeah, she's great. Yeah, she's super interesting, really nice woman. She's a, you know, a scientist who got very interested in ESP and everything, but she had this,

I don't know if it was her or the host of the podcast, But there's this theory that these nonverbal autistic kids have a way of communicating with not only each other, but with their parent or caretaker that doesn't involve speaking because they can't speak. And they basically chalked it up to like they're telepathic and they can communicate. So there's this thing called the Hill that they talk about in the show where all of, it's kind of like a mind link where all these kids meet telepathically in this area and some other. realm and they're able to communicate with each other there. Like some sort of interdimensional playground where all these people, all these

telepathic autistic children go meet up in another dimension somewhere. Oh, okay. Yeah. So what's the output? How do you measure that or how do you read that? So they, what they do, they do experiments during the telepathy tapes interviews. And they filmed it. They have camera people filming it where like, um, they put the kid in one room or I don't

I don't know if they're in the same rooms or that they're in different rooms, but they basically they show the kid some words or pictures or whatever or no they show the parent the pictures or the words or whatever and then the kid is somehow able to like repeat it yeah exactly what the parent is seeing okay the kids read the parents mind not the other way around the parents can't read the kids minds okay so they're looking at a board that will say a certain word and the parents back is turned and you're the kid and they have no way of seeing it and they'll be able to you know that they're looking at. But they can't talk.

No. So what do they do? Write it down? Yeah, they have that, like a tablet or something, right? Yeah, they have a tablet where they can type or something or I don't know how they do it. But there's all these theories that the parent is signaling them somehow or the parent is touching them in a way that's... Well, one of the things that really kind of made me more confused about the whole thing was

when I had Dahlia, one of the mothers of one of the kids, the show and she was saying that her daughter was talking about like meeting jesus or something or like talking about biblical characters and angels and stuff in this other realm and that's where i'm like you know these people are predisposed to this because they were brought up in this religious sort of mind frame right that was kind of like their family history right so like how much of that is bleeding into what this kid is saying or you know I always find that really interesting with near-death experiences that it seems I mean do you believe that that's true I believe that's true 100% I believe that's yeah I do too but it seems like people that are brought up in a certain

religion they will always find those kind of images yes yes true that's true so that's that's I always find that kind of interesting that there's some sort of projection. So you see something. It's like in dreams. You feel something, but you make a projection yourself of what you're seeing. You know, the way you were brought up or the way you.

So it's always a projection of your own, you know. Of your own beliefs. Of your own belief. There's a certain feeling that you get from something, but you make the picture yourself. Now, it's like in dreams. In dreams, there's feelings going on. all over the place, your mind just makes the images,

ties them together, and makes it into some kind of soup that nobody really understand. It's interesting how that works. It is very interesting how that works. Yeah. Yeah. So something going on there with the unconscious mind is somehow percolating up through all this stuff.

Even psychedelic trips too. I've heard similar stories. Oh yeah. Yeah. I've never done that. I'm kind of like scared to do a ayahuasca trip. Do DMT. It's only five minutes.

Yeah. It's the same thing, but it doesn't last for hours. I've done mushrooms many times, and I've told a lot of people. I've had extremely profound, you know, on mushrooms, like really life-changing, promotional. Oh, yeah. And I haven't done it in many years, but it's kind of, you can hear a lot of people talk about. Like, for me, it's like, okay, I gut things. already what what more do I need to take to like I already kind of experienced that and

totally but I don't know I'm not like opposed to the ayahuasca and all that stuff DMT I just I'm kind of like paranoid I guess yeah it's just scary it's definitely scary you've done it yeah I've done DMT not Iowa yeah what happened did you see uh at L elves and the first time I saw little aliens in front of me doing ballet in circles that's cute and and and one of the most recent times i had like a full-on conversation with a tree in my backyard and it was like i forget so that it's like it's like it slips away from you after a while like it's so like right after you do it you have to immediately do a voice memo of like everything that's running through your mind right then and i did that and it was like something

to the effect of like like like you Humans are only like temporary, temporary passers by in like the world or whatever. And the trees and like everyone like the trees know way more than we can ever know. And like something about like the nature and like the what's here on earth and what has been here, like the plants and the animals and some sort of like universal consciousness that the trees are all tapped into and they see everything. we can't even comprehend like the reality. And we're only temporary and like they were here before us

and they're gonna be here after us. And like it was my, it was kind of like, I couldn't stop thinking about it for like a week after. It was pretty wild. I have a question like when you do DMT like that, when do you just like come out of it? Like how does that like, do you just kind of like come back? Yeah, it just sort of like,

it just gradually wears off over a couple minutes. It lasts maybe 10 minutes max. So it's like all of a sudden it's just like you're blasted in to like another reality. It feels like the first time I did it, that's the best way I could describe what dying would probably be like. Because I feel like my soul sort of ejected out the top of my head. And I was just like shuttling through like a highway of light like arteries. Oh really? Like arteries made of light and like fractals and things like that.

And like I literally felt my physical body being. left behind. And like everything I know, every possession I have, every person I've ever met, just like leaving that all behind and like entering a new dimension. That was just my soul, like completely disconnected from physical reality. And yeah, it was bonkers, dude. Every, every time I've done it, it's been a different experience. Yeah. Well, what's really interesting to me is you had him on, right? Andrew Gallimore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's super interesting. He does a bunch of research about this idea that like whenever you take DMT or enter this other dimension and people can access that dimension and and he does an extended state DMT where he puts people on IV drips of it so

he can stay there for longer yeah try to like map out whatever that realm is yeah I did it once and I to my disappointment I just wound up in this dome pure geometric form you know the the six what is it called, a six-corner shape. And that was it. And I was stuck there. And that's all I saw. And when I opened my eyes, I was still like half in there.

But that was it. Pure geometer. And that I found so weird. That was the least thing I would expect. One of the craziest things for me, too, was the audio. Like my, like the, their sound.

It's not just visual hallucinations. It's like this w-z-l- type sound that just takes over. It's like this weird, weird thing. Unexplainable. Yeah, I want to try it, I guess. Yeah, man.

You're going to have to do it someday. You're young. Yeah, yeah. Geez. Well, cool, man. Thank you guys for doing this. This has been a fascinating conversation. Yeah, man.

Tell people about your documentary. Mind Traveler. It's called Mind Traveler. It's going to be out this summer. And you can buy it. You can rent it, Amazon, iTunes, etc. and yeah we're going to have a trailer done to definitely for sure like this week so we can we can get that to you hell yeah yeah yeah mine traveler um yeah long time coming very excited about it i think it's

fantastic documentary man very well thank you very much big fan thanks man cool all right andy thank you this has been fun yeah welcome all right guys good to be here good good night world Are you one of those media strategy people clicking through slides, scrolling spreadsheets? Yes? Good. This is for you. Because on Spotify, there's an audience that's different. Locked in. Loyal, invested. They're called fans. Fans don't just listen to music.

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