Danny Jones Podcast - #413 - “Patient #1” Inside the Most Insane DMT Study in History | Carl Hayden Smith

Episode Date: July 13, 2026

Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Carl Hayden Smith was the first participant on the nnDMT study at Imperial College London and most recently on the DMTX phase of the study. His research also explores the combination 'functional sound' with the application of psychedelics. https://contextology.org SPONSORS https://shopify.com/dannyjones - Turns out you don’t need a real job. Get a free trial today. https://capl.onelink.me/vFut/zralgyl0 - Download Cash App today. https://dupe.com - 100% free 'Research for Me' comparison shopping tool. https://butcherbox.com/danny - Get $20 off your first box, plus your choice of free ground beef for life, or free chicken thighs or top sirloins in every box for a year. https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off. EPISODE LINKS https://contextology.org FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - Carl's Psilohuasca trip 02:14 - DMTx trials at Imperial College 11:57 - Your brain is "asleep" on DMT 16:56 - What happens to your brain on psychedelics 21:59 - People who get locked out of DMT 27:22 - Cyberdelics - devices that change consciousness 33:46 - Natural vs. synthetic drugs 39:47 - Rick Strassman's theory on psychedelics 42:19 - Life reviews on psychedelics 47:08 - Carl's journaling practice 53:04 - Carl's DMTx trip visualized with AI 59:55 - 3 motifs of a DMT trip 01:07:36 - Upcoming DMT research goals 01:12:56 - Evidence for a 2nd Sphinx in Giza Plateau 01:16:24 - 3D modeling ancient sites & memory palaces 01:23:50 - Filippo Biondi's pyramid scan claims 01:28:37 - The power of sound on consciousness 01:37:27 - The Drake Passage 01:40:12 - Using tech to become more human 01:43:07 - Mystery schools & Eleusis 01:45:37 - Essence of the human experience 01:53:01 - Danny's experience with DMT 01:56:40 - Umwelt hacking 02:02:33 - Existence of telepathic abilities 02:10:13 - Noise pollution from data centers 02:17:37 - Next steps in DMTx experiment Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Talk to Banner? I didn't know you could get that big. Spider-Man, brand-new day. In theaters, July 31st. So tell me about this, how you were patient zero in this DMTX injection study, where they inject DMT straight into your veins. How did this happen? How do you get into this and tell me how it went? That's a great study how I actually got into it. So I was doing siloasca in the Netherlands.

And do you know what silaascar is? So sila is Syrian rue and mushrooms. So you do your heroic dose of mushrooms, whatever variety you want. And then you do three grams of Paganum seeds. before you do your mushrooms. And it amplifies the mushrooms by about five times in strength. So instead of doing five grams, you're doing 25 grams. Oh, nice.

And I've been crazy enough to do it twice. And the net result of that is that it's an alien invasion each time. The first time I did it, I was like on a saucer and there's a scanner in the middle of this saucer. And I'm like, all the thousands of entities all trying to get me inside the scanner. and I'm like, I'm in a bad mood because Brexit just happened. I'm a university professor, work at the University of East London. And I knew it would ruin my research funding. Brexit is like the worst thing because I was getting millions of funding from the EU.

And so I'm in a bad mood and it's equating to the entities. I'm basically like, okay, I'm not in the mood to get in the scanner. Even though I can see it's probably the most advanced technology I've ever seen. And on the side of the saucer is the same. same shape as this scanner. So it's almost like a pod and I could have potentially got in the pod. Are you explaining what's happening in the trip right now? Yeah. Okay. And then I basically, you know, I expect I would have been scanned and then fired off into the universe and spread across the known universe. And instead of doing that, I was just not going in, not going in over and over again.

And then the next day I'm like, what the hell didn't I go in the scanner? Like, what was I thinking? So bad taste in my mouth. I went to an event in London. in the real world and I saw Chris Timmerman outside the Conway Hall and I told him this story and he says oh don't worry about that you can come in my scanner at Imperial College London so that's how I got the invite to start doing the DMT trials and I've been doing them for eight years at Imperial and the first study was EEG and intravenous DMT and almost got thrown out of the study straight away for breathing because I was like quite you know doing a lot of breath work because that's how you navigate the space

phase and Chris was like, oh, you've ruined the kind of the EG data because you're creating motion artifacts as you're moving, as you're breathing. And I was like, you just need better equipment. So luckily, they did get better equipment. And I was allowed back into the second phase of the study and the second phase of the study fMRI plus injected DMT. And I don't know if you've ever been in an fMRI scanner. I don't think so.

But it's incredible. I'm not claustrophobic generally. the claustrophobia induced by this incredibly loud, very confined. Your heads, like, you know, you can't move an inch, so you're locked, your head's sort of very confined, you can't move any part of your body. And you're not really in, you're not really in charge of when the DMT is coming into your system. So, you know, you're trying to cope with the claustrophia. Then suddenly you're like, oh my God, I'm in here and I'm, you know, tripping.

That's a lot. And then immediately the entities arrive on mass. mass as if to say, bang, they gave me like a flash of light to say that you're made of light, you're like an immortal being, but you're in a human form right now and you're not scheduled. They're like, you're not scheduled. And I was like, like role reversal. So I had to calm down these abundance, the amount of entities that arrived on mass, all different varieties, all very concerned for me because I'm suddenly in a scanner when, as I mentioned before, they're the ones normally scanning you. So I was,

I was like kind of giving them a bit of a trip. So I had to spend the entire trip calming them down. And I can show you a before and after, if you like, from that study. But that was like, that was the second phase of the study. So what was the purpose of the study? The purpose of the study, these are the three phases. So you can see the first phase of 2016 to to 2017, that was the EEG plus intravenous DMT. Highlight study, okay. Yeah, and then we had the fMRI plus EEG. So that's when you're in this huge tube.

Right. And then from 2021 onwards was the DMTX. I was lucky, it's almost like a graduation ceremony. So I got through the first phase and second phase was like this was, this was before that particular scan. And this was me directly afterwards. So you can see it's like a, see it in your face. Yeah.

It was an extraordinary insight and probably the most powerful DMT experience I've had thus far because they gave up the cosmic joke, as if to say, we're here, we're, you know, kind of your guardians and you're not scheduled, as if to say they know when you're actually scheduled and that wasn't the right time for me to be, you know, putting myself in danger. And what was really fascinating was that two weeks later? They know when, what does that mean? They know when you're scheduled. They told me.

They told me you're not scheduled. That was very clear, like, as in like, you're not ready. you're not going to die now. This is like, why are you being scanned? Like, what is this scanner? They were completely confused, and they'd probably never seen anyone having DMT and being in an fMRI scanner.

So it was extraordinary for them, probably more extraordinary in some sense because I had to spend the whole time calming them down. As if people can be scheduled to die. As if they know when you're scheduled. And what was crazy was two weeks later. As if it's predetermined. As if there's some sort of, yeah,

some sort of knowledge on the guardians, if they are your guardians, if there is something to that. But what was crazy is two weeks later, I had to go back in the scanner and do the next phase of the study, same dose, same experiment, and no entities came,

as if to say they, you know, a bit like crying wolf, like, you know, we've told you this isn't the cleverest thing to be doing. And of course, it made me realize that it's all about context. You know, it's very much about the contextual factors of when you're doing these trips, like what, you know,

If you've got a massively loud device that you're basically sitting inside whilst you're doing the DMT, that's going to affect the outcomes. Because I think 80% of the medicine is the contextual factors that you're doing it. We know about mindset, right? If you're in a very twisted place, you shouldn't touch anything psychedelic because it's a non-specific amplifier. Body set, you know, my friend Jack O'Locker and Mylin have written a paper around how important it is to be well rested. you know, the food that you've eaten, have you had a virus recently?

Body sets critical in terms of context as well. And then your environment. So those three factors make up so much. I'm sorry if you already said it. I remember I asked you earlier. What was the specific purpose of this experiment? Yeah, I didn't answer that. Was there a hypothesis you were testing?

Consciousness, really to explore consciousness, which is why I was interested in being part of that study. So it wasn't to do with depression or ADHD or can we help with this, that, or the other. It was very much, can we explore, what consciousness is through DMT. Can we explore what consciousness is through DMT? Yeah. So that was really the... And okay, so they hook you up to an IV and give you...

How does that work? How do they give you DMT? How do they know how much DMT to give you? How do they know, is there like an unsafe amount or like a limit of how much they can give you and how long does it last? It's a great question. So this is the device that they use and this is basically what you would be having if you were being anesthetized. So if you're going into to have an operation, you want to have a continuous infusion of anesthetic to make sure you don't wake up. So all they've done is switch out the anesthetic for DMT.

And the reason why that study was kind of foundational and why Andrew Gallimore and Rick Strassman are theorized around this being possible. We didn't know really until this time. And I was subject zero in that study, like the first person to do all five different dosing sessions. But the main thing that we realized is that, yeah, there is an increase in heart rate to begin with, but it flatt, it, you know, it stabilises. So it was deemed then safe to explore. And now, like Danigola, for instance, has just done five

hours, DMT extended stay, which I believe is the current record. How many hours did you do? I just did half an hour. Half an hour. Because it was just a safety study, but I did different doses over the course of, you know, five, no, three months. So every three weeks, I would do a different dose. And it would take you that time to kind of integrate the experience. And what was also interesting was the, you know, the entities themselves, you know, because everyone sees entities, it seems, you know, I'll talk a little bit about Elusis and the project that we've got going on in the Caribbean where 74% of people that are doing DMTX are experiencing some sort of entity. And again, you know, I'm a scientist, I'm a professor.

I'm still on the fence as to whether these entities are your archetypes or your higher self or you or you in the future or something you're tapping into. I know Robin Carr Harris recently talked about that of course we're, you know, in our subconscious, we try to make sense of these these inferences. But I think the key thing is that they're so, as that as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, as, of these inferences. But I think the key thing is that they're so, as we're seeing more and more, that it's a hyper-real reality that has some sort of, you know, consistency. People are, there was the DMT Nexus did this, the labyrinth where they actually crowdsourced, you know, people's trips to say, are you going to this part of DMT space? Are you going to this part of DMT space?

And I think that that's fascinating that people are going to the same spaces. And if we can, if we can actually put maybe six people in. I know with, with Anton Bilton, his vision is like, let's get six people launched at the same time. And see if they experience this thing together. See if they go to a common space. Right. So how did they figure out like what this? No one's ever died from DMT.

Right. I know people, people have died from Ibogaine. Yeah. And from other things because of the heart rate issue. Yeah. Lots of other psychedelics people have died from, but never with DMT. So how did they figure out how to measure that and like how pharmacologically mixed with your body and how that all works?

That was a big part of the pilot. I feel like I would have been asking them so many goddamn questions if I was the first patient. Yeah, yeah. So I think that the key thing is you know you have an amazing care team, the best scientists in the world, the best psychedelic minds, and you're in safe hands. And of course they start low. they dose low and like you say the good thing about DMT is it's it's very safe in terms of it's

non it's not toxic yeah and you know I think that for me it's I've always been fascinated by by by consciousness and looking at consciousness from multiple angles so I'm happy to to push you know to push the boundaries to find out where they are but I know that um that what I was doing there was very safe and it obviously made me very intrigued as to how far we can go with these durations, etc. So what have we learned about consciousness? Well, as I was telling you earlier, one of the big findings from the publications from Chris was that it seems that you are asleep effectively on DMT.

It seems like you're in a dream, the signature of the brain is that you're dreaming. And again, you know, this is this is one of the, obviously it's very, very, very, very, very, you know, very different to dreaming, but for me it's the same when I go into, we'll talk later about, you know, that's very interesting. The sacred sites also seem to put you into this trance-like state. You know, I can show you later the brainwaves being measured in the King's Chamber in the Great Pyramid, with 10 of us being, you know, being EEG measured and actually seeing that we've got very high delta, it looks like we're all asleep whilst completely sober. But the architecture itself is doing something. And again, it's like, what's the connection between dreaming, psychedelics, and

sacred sites? There seems to be a golden thread between them. There's also people who are alleged UFO experiencers, they put these helmets on and try to measure that, do an EEG on them. And they said the same thing. They said their brains look like they're in a sleep state. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very strange. So how many times did you do this? So that DMTX study was five different dosing sessions. Five different dosing sessions. And again, one point, Chris was like, do you want to come back? We've got an opening.

Do you want to come back after two weeks? And I was like, definitely not. Because you need the three weeks to integrate what you're learning. And I think that the entities also aren't so happy about you being there too often. Because I've had the message, you know, you're coming back too frequently. You know, we'll happily still do the work on you as if, you know, a lot of it seems to be some sort of psychic surgery. They're working on physical elements or they're giving you kind of, it's very moral I find.

They're giving you a relationship advice. It's like, you know, you're doing this well, you're not doing so well here. It's kind of like some sort of mystery school that you're tapping into. And while you're doing it, are you somehow communicating with people? In the room. In the room. Yeah, the interesting thing about DMTX is that you, you know, you're unlike a five, me a experience where you're you kind of are like a lot more out of body you know it's DMTX for me you know you're you're they're asking you questions every I mean this is part of the problem they're asking you every two minutes how intense is it now Carl you know and I'm like guys

to you know telling me the time effectively by asking me every two minutes and also asking me if I'm anxious not the not the ideal kind of settings for a psychedelic experience so I'm I'm I'm a subject, so I'm having to give data. And what is interesting and useful about that is, you know, if I've given a rating of 10 out of 10 for intensity, then in the interview directly afterwards, Chris does these micro-phenomonological interviews where you are asked to repeat the experience directly after you've had it.

So not to remember it, but to go in and have the experience again, to the best of your ability guided by those ratings. Hmm. Yeah, it seems like it would be frustrating because all those questions having to interact with the scientists asking you questions, we keep one foot in the real world and you'd be, wouldn't be like fully enveloped in the DMT experience. It's definitely a double consciousness kind of experience. That you're in both, much like in a VR experience where you know you're in a game environment,

but you also know you're in the real room. And the same with a lot of this is like you know you're having an internal experience, but you're also very embodied in that. Starting a business is a big deal, but what really surprised me was how much simpler Shopify made it for us. We used Shopify for our merch store, and it's helped us recently revamp our whole entire site with new products, and it was super easy. And from day one, the tools were super simple and easy, and I didn't have to feel like I had to learn a whole new profession to get it done. The design part was way easier than I expected. Shopify's templates and AI tools helped us get the storefront looking clean, professional, and real without needing to touch any code.

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Start your free trial today at Shopify.com slash Danny Jones. Again, start your free trial at S-H-O-P-I-F-Y dot com slash Danny Jones. Shopify.com slash Danny Jones. So what do you think is going on when we take these psychedelics and our consciousness seems to be like ejected from our bodies? And do you think there's lots of theories? Yeah. What do you think?

I'm very much, you know, an explorer of these special. And I think that there is kind of an exchange. And there seems to be a very different ontology. So if we think about like thinking, feeling, being in this realm, that's our way of, you know, existing. I think that they find that very interesting and they can learn from us as test subjects. Like I'll show you a visualization of the fifth dose.

And it's like there's a playpen being constructed around, you for you to be observed and it does feel like you're popping up into their space and one of the dangers I think of DMTX is that you could end up colonizing that space because you know you know they probably tolerate us in these short durations popping into their space and find us kind of not you know a bit like when you you have a spider in your house and you put a glass over your over the spider and have it's look at this before you put it back out in the wild that's my hunch that there is kind of You know, I think that there are aliens and we are also aliens.

And I think that, you know, of course it's like the typical hubris of humans to think that we're unique and that we're the only intelligence. And, you know, what I find interesting about AI is that suddenly it's revealing the languages of all these other species. And of course, they're all very conscious. And, you know, the whales, for instance, have their own phonetic alphabet. Yeah, Andrew Gallimore explained to me really stuck with me about how like the, the five senses we have are like brain filters or whatever that keep us away from the rest of it. They're like, they're filtering out everything that's really there so that we can survive in the world. That's right. Right?

And then what this is doing is stripping away the five senses we have and exposing everything to us. Yes. I really, that really makes a lot of sense. But like the problem is how the fuck do you prove that? Well, this is why it's interesting that now Andrew's collaborating with Don Hoffman. We just literally launched the Trace Institute in LA a few days ago. And that is basically an opportunity for us to test Don's theories. And, you know, Don's talking about this kind of VR headset that we're all wearing

and how space time itself is a construct and it's a construct of consciousness. So he's an idealist. Space time itself is all a construct. Yeah. And the idea that basically everything's arising from consciousness. So instead of... Right. So consciousness is fundamental.

Yeah, exactly. So Annal Seth, for instance, he would say that your brain is producing consciousness. So that's a materialist perspective. Mm-hmm. And the, you know, the idealist think that your, you know, your body is being produced through consciousness. Everything's arising from consciousness. So if we were to talk about, and even in the recent launch, you know, Don's saying that, you know, our headset is kind of faulty.

And I've done a whole TEDx talk at Oxford talking about the fact that when we look in the mirror, we don't see ourselves as we are. You know, the mirror is flipping the image back to front. So when you actually see yourself in a true mirror, which is two mirrors at 90 degree angle, that's when you see yourself as you actually look. And you're pretty. Yeah. And it's just like, you know, you can do it.

You can mirror sometimes on a webcam and you're, you'll actually switch and you actually look like that. Other people see you as you look, but you don't. And also the way you hear, you know, when you suddenly hear yourself, you hear yourself a lot, right? Yeah. When you hear yourself on a recording, it's not as you imagine you hear. Right. So you're in a perceptual locked in since you're sort of already in a virtual reality.

And other people have a, have a better understanding of you in terms of sound and visuals than you do. Right. Well, not today's day and age. Now everyone, you can see yourself on video and on audio 24-7, people are making videos of themselves. That's true. But then a lot of people are getting nose jobs because the mirror is their phone and they're holding it at a certain angle. So they get this, you know, it comes back to the Renaissance where we actually decoded space

as linear perspective, whereas actually we see in curve a linear perspective, but all of our cameras, all of our media is all based around linear perspective. So there's a fundamental flaw there. So we're kind of locked in to our VR headset, as Don says. And as you said with Andrew, we now have the ability with DMT to maybe upgrade the headset and start to actually experience reality in a way that isn't confined to the five senses, so that you actually have this kind of new way of testing. And they went through the whole, all the different tests that we want to do.

I lose this in the Caribbean because now we have the opportunity to do DMTX and to bring in people, for instance, there's certain people that get locked out of DMT. I've heard this. you know and and David Luke for instance one of my good friends he did I think 50 doses of of of DMT quite soon after each other on the river Ganges and was was effectively locked out he had like an orange screen over his experiences for 20 years until I think he did 20 years until he eventually did a study at imperial and and was unlocked so what we want to do is a study looking at people that have got the locked out syndrome,

and then people that have maybe never been able to have any experience with DMT, no matter how much they do, they seem to be genetically unable to experience it. And then normies. So we'll do a comparison between these three different groups, and it would be great to do a call-out to try and understand if there's people out there that have one of these different predicaments. So how would you upgrade the VR headset?

Like if you're talking about our consciousness, you're saying that by the use of DMT therapeutically or something with the use of some sort of protocol, we could increase our consciousness permanently somehow? Well, let me show you another image here. This is from, this is from Andrew as well. This is quite old now in terms of his presentation of it. But this is his vision or what was his vision. I'm not sure because one of the reasons we started talking is because I'm very much in a

in a sort of hyperhuman focus, thinking about the fact that we only live for a thousand months as humans. Only a thousand months, that's all we get. But yet we spend a lot of time trying to... How many years is that? 83.

Wow. So people don't realize, you know, it's such a brutally short existence and we spend a lot of our times trying to peek beyond the veil, not really exploring actually probably what's the rarest thing, which is to be human, right? So I'm really interested in,

you know, how do we understand our potential, our latent potential that we may have atrophied, through different, you know, through just basically being on our phones all day long because one of the crazy charts is that you've got a thousand months to live. But out of that thousand months, you only have 300 months free time.

And the average person uses 300 months on their phone. Have you seen those calendars they make? That's what I mean. Those are crazy. Yeah. Those are insane. They really give you like a perspective. They really do.

And that's the thing with like, you know, people just Netflix themselves to death. So this is DMTX kind of, you know, almost a bit tongue in cheap. But you know, Andrew's, you know, his vision is that, you know, you're kept in these pods and you have like waste management taken care of. So like food's coming in through a drip and waste coming out through. Like the Matrix. Yeah, pretty much.

And I remember him presenting this at the Turingham Institute and all the shamans were just looking at each other going, this guy's absolutely bonkers. And yeah, basically this is this is transhumanism. 101 for DMTX. Whereas I'm like, let's not do this. Let's like, let's explore the mtX and go in for it with a particular intention with, you know, bring in specific types of skill sets into these spaces and try and solve mathematical problems, scientific problems, like really bring back information that now with the DMTX experience and especially- I don't think you're me, were meant to stay there that long. No, and this is what will happen. We'll start colonizing the space. And then we'll really have problems, I think. We will start colonizing the space. Yeah, because if you're, like I said

before, like I've been told, oh, you're coming back too frequently. Like, don't be, don't be coming back so often. But we'll, you know, is an exchange. There is some sort of exchange going on. And maybe that will be part of the upgrade that, you know, I'm always exploring, having gone through these studies, you know, have I been left with not just an altered state, but altered traits, you know, because even during the study, there was only 12 of us that did the pilot study. Only four of us ended up doing all five doses. And what I found interesting was that there was there was some, some skills being developed over that short period of time.

Like, for instance, I was having precognition. So I actually tapped into what my future mental estate would be like six months from then. and I only realized when it actually came to pass that I was actually having this precognition you know and so I think that we can upgrade the headset with DMTX but only if we do it

in a very mindful ethical you know mindful of what's going on on the other side as well and really bringing through these sorts of you know can we solve scientific problems with this stuff and really look into yeah well it's just like dreams right we can't really remember dreams after they happen

Right when you wake up, you have a very good memory of it, like when you get up and go to the bathroom. But then like, you know, 10 minutes later, it's totally gone. Yeah. And I think that's by design the same way with DMT. Absolutely. I don't think we were meant, I don't think we were meant to, which is why I think it's a great thing to like record it after you do it, like, audio recording. Yeah. But, but now you.

If we had, if we could lock those memories in the same way, you know, I can remember having breakfast this morning, I don't think it would be good. I agree and what's interesting now I don't know if you've seen this Luma Band which apparently will create lucid dreaming on demand have you ever had any lucid dreams So this Oh, I've had lucid dreams

Yeah So very rare Not on purpose but on accident No very rare right I mean most people only ever experience it once I had a lucid dream And I was holding a calculator And I was consciously pressing the buttons

And I was like what a waste Yeah You know could have been flying But this band So again it's the hyperhuman versus transhuman version of lucid dreaming. So lucid dreaming, you can train yourself, reality testing, right? So you do this like looking at your hand, am I dreaming, am I dreaming, am I dreaming, just looking at your hand over and

over again. And then you may end up looking at your hand in a dream and then you might notice one thing is longer than another. And that means that you're dreaming and you're like, and then the key is to not wake up, not, you know, wake up from astonishment because that's when you come, you know, you ruin the lucid dream. But imagine if lucid dreaming, because, you're, you're comes a button, you know, just like now with the prompting, right? We're just pressing buttons. And that means we can potentially have lucid dreams on demand. And maybe we're not meant to.

You know, maybe we are meant to do the training because it's hard. Yeah. You know, I think that there's a lot to be said for forgetting and the importance of forgetting, you know, much like, I don't even see that Black Mirror episode where it was like two couples rowing. And they were like, you said this and they were like, no, you said this. And then they were like, let's have a look. And because they're recording everything through their contact lenses all day long. long and they just rewound the yeah there you guys it's just just being launched so what is this

supposed to do so this is transcranial stimulation whilst you're asleep so it will know when you're in a REM state and once you're in a REM state it will it will fire a small amount of transcranial so electricity basically hitting the left or the right angular gyrus and that's then meant to create this like lucid dreamlike state and of course it's super contentious I think it's still on pre-order But you know, I know a lot of people in the in the dream science space and this is just like this is again just the kind of the dystopian hell for a lot of people that really value what comes through through dreams because it seems like with dreaming it's like either you're just processing your day Or you are like getting some sort of transmission from somewhere and I think like same with all of this AI stuff where we're either atrophying the ability to sick to to receive as chance

like receive something from somewhere. I mean, another example is this, a friend of mine has created this watch that you never look at, but you feel it. So it vibrates the minutes, the hours, the seconds, right? So you literally turn time into a sense. So you know time. And I said to him, well, what's the benefit? He says, well, now I never burn pancakes because I know time. So he knows two minutes.

It's not an abstract concept anymore. It's like he knows time. So now he doesn't burn pancakes. So now he doesn't burn pancakes. So is that really the point of this very invasive, like, again, quite dystopian? Because I was like, well, what happens to flow states? Because flow states depend on not knowing the time. Right.

What happens to- Exactly. What happens to psychedelics when you know time? And he wanted to give me one of these 50 watches, because, you know, giving them to influences. And I was like, I'll give it to some, I'll give it to a surrogate to wear it. No, it's weird. There's just, it happens to me all the time. Like, I'm so relying on having my watch. I feel naked without it.

Really? But if I go without my watch for a couple days, I, I know what time it is. There you go. Like I can just get, I could like stop for a second. I wonder what time it is. I would guess and I'll go look at my phone and I'd be like dead on within a couple minutes. So you're, yeah, you've got the, but of course it's a human construct.

And we also, you know, I'm not only just interested in psychedelics, but cyberdelics. Cyberdelics. So check out cyberdelic nexus. This is really the hub of all the different ways we can change consciousness with technology. So think of flicker lights. Have you ever tried like a Roxyva or a Lucia light, which induces like an LSD trip just through flickering light? So you sit in front of this light with your eyes closed,

and you start seeing colors that you, you know, it's only white light, but you're seeing full kaleidoscopic colors. It's totally wild. So binaural beats, like mixed reality, virtual reality. But also we, I worked with the Cyborg Nest guys and they created a new sense called the North Sense, which was something you body pierced, It wasn't like fully invasive, but it was like it was body pierced.

So you would wear this thing and it would vibrate every time you've based north. So eventually after a certain amount of time, you knew you would know where north is, right? Much like birds know where north is. We may have known where north is, but we lost that ability maybe through, you know, the first maps or, you know, now nobody knows where anyone is because we don't know where we are because of GPS, right? So we're constantly outsourcing that. And I think that that is a super interesting way of using technology. And there's, again, a hyperhuman way of doing it, which is you can wear a belt and it will vibrate every time, every, you know, for six weeks you'll wear this belt.

And then you remove the belt and then you still have the north sense, as opposed to something you have to wear permanently, which is the transhuman route. About a year ago, I got hit with a text about an unpaid toll. And then when I paid it, it turned out to be a scam. And that would have never happened if I had been using cash up. And that is one of the primary reasons I now only use Cash App. Keeping your money safe from fraud deserves to be a priority, and Cash App treats it that way. With security lock, Cash App requires a successful Face ID and biometric authentication to access your account. It's like your money is protected by your own personal bodyguard, even if your phone is lost or stolen.

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Banking services provided by Cash Apps Bank Partners. Visit cache.app slash legal slash podcast for full disclosures. People like to push back on technology and, you know, AI taking over for humans' abilities and, you know, for everything, even like mundane things like remembering how to drive around town or remembering phone numbers, right? Like, I used to really remember tons of phone numbers. Now I can remember like three phone numbers. And like where it's going.

You know, I had this conversation with Hamilton, Hamilton Morris once when he was explaining to me. the difference between like natural drugs and synthesized drugs, drugs that are synthesized in a lab. Yeah. Well, if you really think about it, even drugs that are created in a lab by a scientist with using beakers and shit like that, that's technically natural. Yeah.

Because we are part of nature and we are using our brains and our technology to create this stuff. And it exists on this earth. So it really is natural. But we just, we don't think of it that way. We think of stuff as like, as, you know, um, invasive or unnatural just because we created it and we used technology to create it. Yeah. I mean, if you think about five MEODMT, which I find one of the most extraordinary chemicals on the planet, most of that is actually synthesized through melatonin.

So it's just a simple chemical reaction to, to create five MEODMT from melatonin. And Rick Strasman had a whole chapter on melatonin in his book. And I think, yeah, Hamilton is, you know, chemists. So he's lucky enough to be able to explore these things and explore. What do you think about Strassman's view on all this? I think his view is that basically when you take psychedelics, it is based on your priming. He thinks it's like bringing out what's buried deep in your psyche and bringing it to fruition in this sort. real way consciously yeah i mean strassman i know he's not a fan of five mio but i think his oh yeah he

had a really bad trip on yeah as did michael pollen actually and i was kind of i was having dinner with him after that he launched his how to change your mind book and i was like you can't like dismiss this because you had a bad trip and the whole of humanity listens to you and and dismisses this incredibly i mean funnily enough most of the clinical trials are really finding extraordinary results from five like the beckley SITEC work, which was the nasal spray, which was the last study I did at Imperial. And, you know, having a nasal route of administration meant that I had a 90-minute experience. 60 minutes of that was a plus 10.

On 5MEO? Yeah. Oh, my Lord. It was unbelievable. And, you know, for me, that trumps DMT in terms of the way I see it is that we're here in the, you know, third dimension and light is shining. upon us. When you do DMT or ayahuasca or Changa, it seems light is emitting from objects. Like you're seeing this hyper, hyper real like light show from like things are coming out from from people and objects and entities. And when you do five MEODMT, it's like you become light itself.

So it feels like we're having relations with light in different dimensions. I hate the word dimensions but it's like we are you know probably all of these things all the time you know when we talk about dreaming it's like your astral body or your light body you know so it seems like with there are I know you know like the the Kogi tribe for instance they keep their shamans in the in the caves from birth for nine or 18 years and you know endogenous DMT seems to produce seems to incubate in the dark whereas it's all about the light yeah check out the the Kogi and so from the

The moment they're born, they stay in a cave, took 18. Yeah. Nine or 18, I believe. That seems fucking terrible for people for you. It seems like you would. And they're taught about the world in the dark. And then they're on their night's birthday, they're brought out and said, look, we told you about the world. And here it is.

As if. Wow. Yeah. So it'd be fascinating to study what's going on. Where's this tribe? In Columbia. Huh. Yeah.

Here you go. That's wild. Wow. So this was my like rudimentary sketch with Chris Timmerman where I'm like talking about these sort of levels of light. And another bit another really interesting thing from from Gallimore is that eventually we might we might not need substances at all, but just magnets. So magneto receptors that can turn on and off receptors. So you'd wear something like this cap and it would literally turn your receptors on and off. And I know with one of my friends, Kenneth at Stanford, he's in a study where they're,

they're using ultrasound to direct ketamine to different parts of the brain. So they'll point like an ultrasound into a specific part of the brain where they want the ketamine to go. So I'm really fascinated. I had a gentleman on the podcast who said he was doing that. What was that guy's name? Anyways, he had this like ultrasound device that he uses on his test. temple. Uh-huh. And he thinks it's like somehow, he thinks it could be used as a tool to alleviate

Alzheimer's in people. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's so much incredible research coming out in terms of like, you know, even longevity studies that seems to be the case that with with mushrooms, LSD, even ketamine, there seems to be a tangible benefit in terms of lifespan. So really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's recent papers. I haven't got the references here, but how would psychedelics increase lifespan? That's a great question. It's a great question. That seems wild. Yeah, so Strassman. Yeah. His view is that it's basically just pulling out everything that's already in you and like projecting it in some sort of a weird way where, or maybe it's like synthesizing all of these. in your brain, like all these sensory neurons in your brain,

maybe they're all collapsing into one thing, where people describe DMT as being more real than real, right? So if you're in a dream state and you have this chemical that's sort of like bringing all these neurons and neurotransmitters together, to make some super incredibly real experience that you're seeing in this actual visual, fully sensory in every sense of the word way,

like the same way, like the same thing. sounds, the smells, the colors, the visuals, you feel it. And it's projecting it back to us. I feel like if we, I feel like most people would experience something like that for the first time, and we would just automatically put so much meaning to something like that, right? Instead of like looking at it as like a, like a of what it, what is actually technically happening right there in the brain, maybe what's happening is like we're ascribing all this meaning to it. And that, when you add on all the contextual layer of psychedelics in our culture. Yeah.

Right? What everyone knows about psychedelics, anyone who's learned anything about psychedelics, they know. It's like, okay, this is what happens. We see, we see beings. We see little elves. It's geometric patterns. It dissolves the ego. It can do this, this and this.

So maybe this is having some cascading effect because that's like what we're expecting when we go into it. Yeah. And if you gave somebody that was completely outside of our culture that was not indoctrinated into any of this stuff that we know about psychedelics. Someone, some tribe, maybe some like uncontacted tribe gave it to them and see what happened to them. Maybe it wouldn't be the same thing. And on top of that, they did that study with psilocybin at the Johns Hopkins Institute where they gave the religious professionals a bunch of psilocybin to see what would happen to them, what their experience would be. And every single one of their experience was mapped by their religious beliefs.

Yeah. Which is very interesting. Yeah, I mean, I think like dreams, you're either processing your worldview, you're trying to like come to terms with whatever trauma. I mean, although I think it's very much drug dependent, right? So if you were to do Iboga or Ibegain, it seems to you have a lot of people have a life review where you're experiencing your life, even from pre-birth. And I know a lot of people that have done Iboga and they've got up to the eight. age of six where they've been shown everything they've ever done wrong. You know, and then they may do Iboga again like years later and they start from age six,

as if they've processed that part of their lives and now they move through the life review. So it's, you know, I mean, I've been very lucky to have a life review where I experienced my entire life in reverse in episodic chunks. On what? A combination of various things. But it was an incredible insight into death. Because maybe in death we have this kind of, because I feel like we're in a lab, right? We're in a learning lab where we are wanting to really maximize our learning.

And I think death, my hunch is death is a massive expansion of consciousness, not a, not a restriction or an elimination. And in this experience, I basically was able to leave my body in the, in the, so I was already in a double consciousness. So I'm in my consciousness now, like I am talking to you. And then I was in my consciousness in the life of you going back in time in episodic chunks. It was really completely detailed. Wow. And what was amazing was that I was able to leave my body, partly because I had an out of body at 27, which is the whole other story. And I was able to, I decided to go into a table and became wood consciousness.

So I was in a triple consciousness. And then I realized, or maybe I can go into other people. So I went into another person. I was having their experience of me and myself at the same time. And I think that's probably what calmer is, that you think you get away with stuff in life, but actually most likely you will experience what you've done to somebody as them and you at the same time. So I think my hunch is that we are trapped in a point of view, like we all feel like we're

in this kind of locked in point of view state. And that's why psychedelics can give you a kind of holiday from the self, as Aldouss actually would say. But in the death state, you are now given privy access, field of view access, where you can enter anything in the scene and it can be any kind of, you know, animal, you know, anything in the scene. Books that I'd read, I could become the authors, films that I'd been in, I could become all the actors, but I had to have lived it in order to have access. So it made me realize, be careful who you spend your time with and also be careful where you go, because, like recently I went to

Antarctica and the Amazon, because I need to have those spaces in the life of you in order to access all the things in those spaces. So it's almost like there's no, you know, there's no time limitations. It's like it's like your life becomes a product where you can explore it from the, you know, from the learning perspective. And I think that's my hunch is to through this. And life reviews are quite common. Like a lot of people have these life reviews, whether it's induced through a psychedelic or a near death experience. But I had at one time free diving when I almost, I was free diving in a cave and I couldn't find an exit. And I had like a full rewind of my whole life. Really? Yeah. It was, it must have.

been in reality it probably only lasted 10 seconds yeah but it felt like hours yeah it was crazy i had my entire life at that point i was 40 and it went it was an hour in real time but it was 40 years for me perception wow and it makes me think of those people that go to sleep and then they have a dream and they dream that they're in somebody else's life for like a year so they'll have the same you know they'll live their life in this dream they'll have their family they'll have they'll wake up and it'll just be a night that they've had this one year of experience. And then the next night they go to sleep again and have another year. Somebody was telling us a story the other day about Salvia, Devonorum, I believe.

Yeah, exactly. I was going to tell you. Yeah. And they were saying that like they had to live somebody's like entire life. Yeah. It only lasted maybe 10 minutes, but it felt like a fucking eternity and it was like torture for them. Absolutely. And then when they got out of the trip, they like they were missing the people and the places that they went in that life and they were kind of depressed because they felt like they had those people had died yeah and they were going through actual like trauma from it yeah yeah no exactly what the fuck dude yeah and of course it's like you know choose your own adventure right i mean it's really you've got to be careful like you know i'm very careful about what i let in in terms of like i don't tend to watch horror films i don't because it tends to sit in your subconscious and it's a story doorhouse and I you know I'm very conscious about like what I'm what I'm experiencing so I'm driving my point of view to access the field of view much like my journaling practice so I've been writing a journal for my entire life I don't know if you write a journal but it's an incredible practice again very psychedelic because I'm able to jump out of point of view and go into field of view

so I can go into the whole like let me just show you this so I can go into the whole space and explore it from a you know from this kind of like field of view perspective. And what's amazing is that I ended up really going into, going to town with this. So this is the structure. So I have three different levels to the journal. So I write content what I did.

And that's all written in a word document. And that's the doing aspect. Then what I felt is captured through video mostly. That's context. So that's the feeling element. And then notebooks is all like written by hand. And again, the hyperhuman thing is all about whole brain activity so whole brain activity is like playing an instrument singing writing all of

these things that we're losing because of the way we're using technology but but what i find interesting about having this database now of like almost 40 years of data is that i've got thinking feeling doing which is actually the perfect data set for an ai well i'm not going to go there but um but you know i think what what's interesting is that uh you know as kirkigard says life must be lived forwards but can only be understood backwards. So unless you have a trace of what you've done, and of course we have our memories, but I can do things with this diary where I can take cross-sections through it. So I look at this day last year and the year before, in the year before, in the year before, and the year before, and get 40 different mes communicating again. And wisdom is gained by

taking a higher order perspective on your perspective. And it's all about this kind of sense-making and understanding your life as a whole. And it's like, you know, you're actually, you actually don't want to be this kind of like middle of the road character. You want to have the extreme highs and the extreme lows because that's what makes you, you, right? The whole character. So I can actually say if I've been in a relationship for a year, I can read that whole relationship in an afternoon and suddenly get a bird's eye view over that relationship and see patterns start to emerge that I'd never, never notice in real time. Right, that you could have a blind spot too. Yeah. And it's, you know, I live my life in order to write my diary and I write my diary in

to live my life. So it forces me to get new material for the body of work. I have to maximize each day. And it also reveals the spiral. Like we think we're going in a linear sort of evolution, but actually we're moving through this kind of spiral where everything's repeated, everything's revisited until you kind of resolve it. And I love this line from Zhijek. We don't really want to get what we think we want. You know, that whole thing that we live in and live in this virtual reality, this living of constant expectation. Oh, if I get here, this will be. And of course, for me, presence is longevity.

You know, how do we not live in prediction mode? Because that's why I love to travel, because your brain is predicting everything. And if you stay in the same routine all day long, stay at home, doing the same stuff, your brain never comes online. It's only when you're traveling that you don't know what's coming around the corner.

It's designed to conserve energy. Yeah. Exactly. It's designed to survive, designed to conserve energy. So you don't actually come online unless you are doing this kind of practice where you are maximizing your day, going out and talking to strangers. Like, I have to have new material. That isn't the same as before. Novelty. Right.

Yeah. Novelty is key. And I think that this, this kind of journaling practice is again upgrading the headset because I have this kind of super. Because I lose perspective like everyone twice a day. But suddenly I can be like, okay, now let's look at the month. And then I can see how actually I'm doing shitloads of stuff. that's really, really good and really positive. And it's like, so this is kind of a psychedelic trip.

And one of my other favorite lines is this one. I don't know if you've heard this Instagram channel, Healing from Healing, from my friend Adam. So, you know, there's so much healing going on. We're completely overwhelmed with this kind of like. And again, in the psychedelic trip, it's like, what is the trauma that's going to be revisited? And like, but I think if we focus so much on our childhood traumas

and everything that's broken about us, we'll be broken. You know, that's going to be the basic. of our and I think what we need to do is overcome not that it's like not important to heal but it's like if you're going to focus all day long on healing it's kind of you're missing the point of this 1,000 months brutal brutally short like meat space that is here to be enjoyed and explored and shared and you know that's a very good point yeah yeah the putting it in the perspective of time in 1,000 months really really puts it all into it it really like makes you realize like I don't want to be focusing on bullshit anymore. Like, focus on the things that you want to focus on and the things that make you happy and the people around you happy. 100%.

Have you tried doing research for something you want to buy online? And before you know it, you got 250 tabs open and your computer is about to short circuit. That was me when we were recently looking for new office chairs. One site says the chairs are perfect. The other site says they destroy your back. And then you run into this whole phenomena of fake reviews. And before I know it, I'm comparing foam density

like I work in a furniture lab. But now I only use dupe.com's research for me tool. You just type in what you're searching for, comfortable office chair for a long recording day, and dupe does the research for you in just minutes. It filters through real sources, compares options, breaks down features, specs, and pricing, and gives you a straightforward answer on what to buy and why.

And my favorite part, it tells you what not to buy, which saves you for making an expensive mistake. So instead of wasting your whole day, use dupe. And be prepared to save yourself a ton of time and money. Just go to D-U-P-E.com and tell them what you're looking to buy. That's D-U-P-E.com to finally feel confident about what to buy. What we're going to look at, your fifth dose? We're going to look at, yeah, they're going back to the DMTX. And we've got a nice video that I think you're going to show.

Oh, yes. That's, uh, so let me unshare. Okay, so explain what you did here. You, did you record yourself? This, this is actually a, uh, uh, soon to be released. Let me see if I can get to it. There it is. DMTX.AI. So that's the web address. And it's a collaboration between New Nordics,

Josie and Andrew. And what we're seeing here is basically a prompt from the fifth dose of the DMTX experience for me, which is the most profound one by far. And yeah, once, I'll talk you through. How did you create the prompt? So it's an engine, basically, that Josie has created, and we will launch it for use by anyone who wants to visualize their trips, basically.

So what do you do? You record yourself while you're tripping or what? No, this is just, this is obviously, yeah, if you want to have a good, like you were doing with your dreams, like try and voice record as you wake up. So I would always recommend voice recording after trips. Yes. Just because it's so much easier than, you know, although I do love writing by hand, the quickness of a voice record.

And then you could turn that voice record into a sort of, you know, quite a condensed prompt. Right. Which then would feed into this. Got it. Then this creates the... And this will recreate your experience. This will recreate your trip, yeah. So this was your final DMTX experience.

Yeah, this was the Kundalini rush at the beginning of the experience, which I always get with DMT, sort of from the base of the spine. and then you enter a space where it's like you're made of this mesh, this orange, you know, sort of triangular mesh. And then it's a playpen. Like this thing forms a playpen where the entities get to watch you, just like I said, about the spider. And then I enter a space of like interfaces, which is, you know, maybe partly, as you

were saying, that I'm processing the fact that I'm a computer scientist and I'm always like staring at screens. And then I'm getting this kind of gooey interface with, like one interface following another interface, following another interface, and it's all just incredibly complicated. And then I get this kind of reward from this octopus who hands me a key, and I have to reach out at 270 degrees in the room to grab this thing. And that seems to cause this alien takeover of the space, which then leads to the ultimate kind of revelation for me, which is that I'm staring at this white disk, which is like the 5MEO unity space.

And it's because I've always been asking what is causing the unity that you, you experience when you, you know, when you have a non-dual experience and everything becomes like, no longer subject, object relationship, but everything's one thing. And normally it's light. So, you know, a five a me a breakthrough is like you become light itself. And I've always like quite kind of not in a rude way. Is that I feel like there's different ways people could explain this. Like the way I describe this is like my soul, being ejected from my body.

Yeah. Or like you leave back the material world behind you. Is that similar to it? You know, it's an interesting one. I always feel as if I'm still embodied on a five experience. Oh, interesting. But it's very much the body has become part of the light. You know, and I'm, I'm always asking, well, what's producing this?

Because it feels like it's the ultimate reality, right? That you're, you know, you've, you've, you've, I often think when I've done a five experience, that I'm not going to come back, that I've kind of, everything has gone up with me. It's like the universe is, you know, has completed itself. But then of course you float back into your human experience and you're like, wow, that was utterly ridiculous. And then you're kind of like bridging God

with the human experience. Now you kind of know that that's what you are also. But I've always asked what's beyond the white room. What's creating this non-jew space? And I felt like the DMTX experience bridged the DMT experience with the 5MEO experience because that white disc, it was quite speeded up. But that white disk was at the bottom of my

bed. Imagine I'm canulated up. I've got like blood going in one arm. I've got DMT, blood coming out this arm, DMT going in this arm. And I'm seeing this white disc and I'm like shuffling down the bed sort of like trying to get in the hole. I must have looked hilarious on with the team looking at me. But of course I'm just like seeing this white hole, which looks like the unity experience, but I'm away from it. I'm far away from it. So I have this kind of experience of it cracking open. And as it cracks open instead of it revealing like a duality again it reveals a plurality of unities as if to say there's not just our non-dual experience but there's a multitude of

unities that you're not privy to but it still exist and maybe it's maybe it's some sort of evidence of a multiverse that's bonkers it was it was an extraordinary thing because i'd always ask the question that's when i got the key as if to say we're going to show you something that you don't normally get access to and that's why I'm excited about you know taking these studies to the Caribbean where we can actually do these studies in nature because if you think again about the context you're doing these things in a hospital ward where you associate you know hospitals with death dying disease and then you're actually trying to trip in that context of course you're not going to get optimal results and they do their best to try and pimp out the room and like

maybe make it look like you're on the beach or whatever but now we can actually go to the Caribbean we can you know, imagine the scene. So you have a light breakfast where you go out snorkeling on the barrier reef, then you come back and you have like a three hour loamy loamy massage. And then you go into your DMT experience, which can be kind of curated. So, you know, you can actually increase the dose whilst you're in the trip. So when you do ayahuasca, which is around 20% DMT, now you're taking 100% DMT, but you can go in in baby steps. So you could start at like three or four milligrams and just get your toe in the water and say, okay, I'm now, at least in the space. And then you can do your first bolus and get a launch.

And then, you know, can be pulled out of it quite rapidly because it's a curatable trip, because it's going continuously in your arm. So I really like that idea of, you know, this kind of, you know, it's much more curatable as a journey. And therefore, and potentially, like, I would love to see an opportunity, because one of the things I would love to do during

is to draw what I'm experiencing, because I'm always seeing this language at the core of my vision, which is holographic, right? It's like I can walk around it. And it's persistent. I always get these three motifs in a DMT trip. The first one is I see a signer at the corner of my vision, which is like, you're doing well, do more, do more, take more DMT.

And then it's like, you've done enough DMT. And it's always like a female presence. Imagine like the normal signer on your TV, the saying, you're doing sign language. This is always there. And then at the core of my DMT trip, I'm seeing this language that looks, it's hieroglyphic It's hieroglyphic, it's modern and ancient at the same time.

I want to draw it, you know, and I've never been in a clinical study where they let you take off the blindfold and actually just sit there and have your, you know, see what you're seeing. Oh, you're wearing a blindfold? Always. Yeah. Interesting. That's generally what happens in a clinical trial. You're very rarely given the opportunity or the freedom to actually like, you know.

Have you tried the thing with the laser, where you see the code in the laser? Not yet. Have you? I've tried it, yeah. How did you go? I saw a bunch of dicks. I saw 20 trillion dicks flying through the laser at me. There you go. Well, the first time I saw, the first time I did it,

I saw something in there where it was like a bunch of gears spinning. And then I could see code looked kind of like sanskrit, like the shit from Lord of the Rings. Right. And then I did it again, like a third time, like in the same, in the same setting. And then the final time I saw it, it was like infinite dicks flying at me. And I thought maybe that was like them telling me to fuck off.

Probably, yeah. I really like that. It was hilarious. Not a subtle like, yeah, get the fuck out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I think what's interesting is like, because we're doing this project in the Caribbean, elusis mind.com.

And it's basically, you know, Andrews involved as well. And what's interesting about it is that, like I said, 78% of people are seeing entities, but not just entities, but the children of entities. they're being introduced to their children. You know, it's like really getting completely bizarre, like in terms of, like I said, these curatable trips where people are going in.

On the intravenous DMT. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that what's interesting is the, you know, it's the largest legal DMTX project in the world right now. We've put probably 50 people through the protocol and we're, you know, we're doing research. It's kind of seamless research in the sense that we don't want people to feel like their research participants

because they are like, you know, they're there to explore, you know, their own consciousness. And it's, you know, a lot of the time that these things in a clinical setting are kind of imposed upon you, that you will follow the protocol and you don't have much say in like, and what's happening. Anybody who does the study, has there been any participants who have never done psychedelics before? Yeah. Really? Yeah. Which is a pretty hardcore, like, thing.

I mean, I've also done, again, in the Netherlands where I've been to these siloasca experience, and the icebreaker on a Friday night is you turn up at this, at this very beautiful, like, location and a chateau or whatever, and the first thing you try is 5MEO DMT. No, in front of everyone else. So you're sitting there with maybe 15 other people, and maybe your first ever drug experience is 5MEO.

And depending on how well you do, is then deciding your dose of your siloasca for the main event on the Saturday. God, it's so crazy, man. It really is. It really is. But I think, yeah, it's fascinating that we now have this, you know, this ability to do a plug and play model, which is kind of my role there. I'm kind of, I've gone from this idea of, you know, theorizing what context engineering looks like. How do we create the perfect pre-context and the post-context?

And again, with cyberdelics, it's like, you know, some of these cyberdelic experiences are just as powerful as a psychedelic. And you need to be, the space needs to be held. And the space needs to be designed before and after for real integration. Because I think one of the big problems with altered states is that it's all about just give me the next peak experience. Give me the next peak experience. Nobody's integrating anything. Right. And it's all about it's like epiphany porn.

You know, you get all these epiphanies and you don't do anything with them. You know, there's no kind of like, you know, where's your vitamin G? Have you, have you been grateful for these insights that you've been given? Have you done anything with them or you're just on to the next one? So I'm really interested in this idea of altered states curating altered traits. What are altered traits actually look like? What behaviors do we want to garden, you know? And there's also another problem with it is there's also evangelists in the psychedelic space.

There's people that think psychedelics are the answer to fucking everything. And people that want to monetize it to the nth degree and not including, but not limited to the fucking church. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the whole magic bullet idea is a really dangerous one.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's not, it's definitely not for everyone, dude. There was people that definitely were not meant to do this stuff. Yeah. And especially not habitually. Yeah. And on a normal basis.

But like, you know, it's like the people that get in, some people that get into this stuff, they just become like the psychedelic door knockers where they're just trying to push it onto everyone. It's the panacea for everything. Yeah. It could cure. you know, it's going to cure every disease. It's going to also, you know, fix religion.

It's going to bring back Jesus. You know, it's just never ending. Yeah. And, you know, on top of that, it's the obvious stuff where you have a huge corporation is trying to monetize it and trying to patent it. And, you know, you even see things with like the, you know, the Ibogaine research that's happening right now and trying to like push it through the FDA, which is like, you know, by and large, yeah, is that a good thing?

If it's done the right way? Hell, yeah, it's a good thing. Way better than, you know, pushing pharmaceutical drugs on people that. are, you know, causing people to die and, you know, go crazy. But like, when you realize and you look behind the curtain and you see like all like the billion dollar corporations that are also tied to pharma that are like positioned in the perfect way and then I already have the patents and see how they're like locked in on this, they're going to make billions of dollars and they're going to do whatever they're going to. Not that making money is bad. Yeah. I'm just saying like

there's a pattern and there's a huge system behind all of this stuff. that is going to capitalize, anything that gets regulated, anything that becomes normal is going to get like hyper-systemized and it's going to be, they're going to take advantage of it and they're going to just make tons of money off it, you know? Yeah. I mean, I'm very lucky because I've, as a participant on the Imperial trial, because I had the knowledge about how to improve the protocols, you know, Egan phones me up on Christmas and it's like, I'd love you to come to join us at New Nordics as a director. And what I love about the not-for-profit approach is that it's like, what can these things really do?

Like, what is the, you know, what is the real seti of the mind? Like, you know, SETI is like something somebody donated $300 million to like searching radio signals externally. Right. But what about what's going on internally when we have this much cheaper way of exploring our own consciousness? And yeah, maybe I can just talk you through some of the missions that we got going on. I think that it's like, uh, by the way, is there anyone ever like during a DMT trip where two people have done it in the same room together? Has anyone ever reported like sharing the space together? It's a good question.

I know hyperspectral is good. No, it's it hyperspectral? Hyper something at Imperial where they had two people going in at the same time. I don't think that's been published yet. You should get Chris Timmerman on and explore that. Were you going to show us something? Yeah. So this is a new Norton.

So these are some of the missions at the moment already mentioned the work with Hoffman. So Andrew and Hoffman, there's a video coming out of the launch of the Trace Institute. Endogenous DMT is very interesting. Yeah. And we were also doing a study with the University of Florida, where there's this peptide that may be the break pedal of DMT naturally occurring. And if we can actually start to, yeah, explore what's going on. dude's name who's studying this again? The gentleman that we had on who's studying this. Chris McCurdy. Yeah, Chris McCurdy.

Yeah. If you want to show the little... Remember Chris McCurdy, Steve? Oh, yeah. He came in and he's so, so he thinks that Alzheimer's, see, this could be something, or not Alzheimer's, schizophrenia. Yeah. This could be studied for schizophrenics. That if they, if they're breakpedaled to endogenous DMT is broken. Yeah. They may just be getting too much endogenous DMT and they could be driving him crazy. Again, it's like, what's the hyperhuman way of doing this and what's the transhuman way? Because it's like you say, if people are, if people are

constantly like getting too much of something. It's never normally a good thing. But we've got Andrew Gallimore talking through that study with UF. If you can play it. Otherwise I'll move on to the next one. I got you. We've known since the 1950s that DMT is present in the human body and is almost certainly produced by the human brain.

But we still know next to nothing about how it's controlled or regulated. But in the 1970s, an important paper was published, but which was subsequently ignored for the next half a century. This paper showed that in mammalian brain, first in rabbits and then in human cerebrospinal fluid, there was a peptide. This peptide worked to suppress endogenous DMT production by inhibiting the key enzyme in endogenous DMT production, indoleithelamine methalase, or INMTMT. Unfortunately, this paper failed to completely characterize this peptide. So we know nothing about this peptide beyond the fact that it exists and that it regulates endogenous DMT productions.

What we would like to do is to complete this work, to properly isolate and characterize this peptide and increase our understanding of how it plugs into the system that regulates endodigms. endogenous DMT production. Very interesting. There you go. So we're quite a bit of a way into that. I can't tell you too much about how that's going. But so you've seen the DMTX AI one.

DNT is in everything, right? It's in every animal and every plant. Absolutely. That's insane. So if you just bring up the screen again, I'll talk you through some of these other ones. So DMTX AI is the visualizer. So that will become available soon. We're wanting to do this study with the lockout effect. So people that have been locked out of DMT, please.

get in touch and then the the archaeological stuff so we're not just looking at psychedelics we're also looking at let me see if I can bring this one up this so we talked a little bit about the second sphinx so what what's you know fascinating about Egypt and I go to Egypt with with friends and I take people on these tours where we go underneath the Giza Plateau we go to sites that you don't normally get access to and Felipeo Bondeo you are connected with recently has obviously identified potentially the second sphinx but we're working with him to to combine his SAR data with our hyperspectral data so we've just done a whole scan

new Nautics have done a whole scan of the geyser plateau so SAR data seems to reveal these buried structures roads etc but hyperspetral data detect subtle soil chemistry changes crop marks and associated human activity. So if there is a second sphinx, maybe we will be able to help corroborate that. And one of the other things was the, this website that will be launched soon, which enables anyone in the community to point this satellite.

So unlike Felipe with the SAR data, which he's just buying from databases that exist, this is actually- The SAR data he's buying? Yeah, so the SAR data, he's not gathering that from a satellite, I believe he's actually, came up on one of your recent podcasts that it's a database of SAR data that already exists that

you can purchase so you can buy SAR data from specific parts of the world but what we're doing here is gathering hyperspectral data from a satellite where we can point to anywhere we want and you know considering all the mysteries around Egypt you know one of the things that we know is they don't necessarily want people digging into into these mysteries but they really can't stop satellites looking into these sites. Right. And so yeah, so we're really interested in opening up the space and people that think there may be stuff buried somewhere, whether it's pyramids or, because, you know, even in Egypt, I think there's something, something crazy like, you know, the massive amounts of stuff

still under the, under the sand. Yeah. So tell me more about the sphinx. I don't know much about the second sphinx. I saw it. I saw it on social media, but I never actually looked at it. Did he, how did he discover this? So again with the Sard data, he's, he's discovered it. And can you find, or did you? Yeah, see if you can look at, look up, um, see what you can find about Filippo Beyondy's second sphinx and we can just sort of like hash it out. Yeah. You can see very sort of rudimentary where it's facing. But when you actually go into the sphinx in the pause of the sphinx, you can see on the, you know, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, the pillar that's in the middle of the sphinx is there's two of them.

You know, there's two sphinxes. So it seems to be one's about, you know, welcoming the sun and ones about the sun, the sun going down. I really... Oh, interesting. But it does, I did see the imagery of, you know, of what it looks like. And it does look the right sort of size. It's covered in sand and debris. But what an amazing thing if we find it, if there is indeed a second sphinx.

Yeah, that would be insane. But like, so he found this with the satellite, the synthetic, synthetic aperture. radar stuff that's right supposedly and of course it's all conjecture much like what's going on underneath the pyramids and I know that until this stuff's peer reviewed then it's all just hearsay but to be fair to Philippo he did scan the Azara shaft and the Azarist shaft was scanned without him actually going there from just from the SAR data because I take groups down there twice a year and I know there's three levels to it and you know I know

where the bottom is, but in his scans, there is three more levels. So that gives me hope that what he's doing is spot on. Okay, from the Miami Herald of all publications, viral claims of a second sphinx at Giza are false. Of course, archaeologists say they're false. So does it have a link to like try to find the original source of how Felipeo, like what Felipe said? Did he include any imagery? Did he include any of the SAR data? Maybe it was an interview. Maybe he was just like an off the cuff statement that he said.

He did a full world exclusive at this event in Portugal. I don't think it's been released yet, but he did go into a lot more detail in terms of his history and why he's a bit of a voice in the scene where he's using this in his professional day life. But the positioning of it seems to be, you know, very interesting in terms of the maths anyway. Yeah, the thing about the giant shafts below the pyramid, which I'm probably just not smart enough to understand how this stuff works. But like if you look at the raw data and then you look at the 3D renderings that he came up with, it's like, whoa. Completely. How did you come up with this out of this? Yeah.

You know? Yeah. And then if you also look at the scan they did of the Coffrey pyramid, it shows two giant King's Chamber-sized chambers in the center of the Coffray. And we know for a fact that those aren't there. Right. So like you're getting false positives on certain things. And anyways, I had Jeffrey Drummond.

He explained it all. Yeah. Really beautifully. You also said you were, you were scanning some other, like ancient sites or something like this. Yeah, my first job. I can show you this. This is the Palace of Darius in Persepolis. This was the, yeah, I was in the midst of the dot-com burst. I don't know if you remember that. End of the, you're probably not old enough, but end of the 90s 2000. I remember it. So I was doing a computer science degree and, you know, learning Java

programming and then suddenly, because I had an art history background, I was able to jump into into doing this project, which is reconstructing the palace of Darius in Persepolis. And where is this palace? This is in Iran. And this is what it looks like, or what it looked like. And it's very different to Egypt. And what I find fascinating about it is that, yeah, rather than depicting warfare and conquest, it's much more focused on dignity, harmony, and legitimate rule.

And I got in a taxi with an Iranian. And he was telling me about, you know, in Persia, the king was well loved. and you know you considered considered him your dad and when this is all just very you know probably a lot of hearsay but Alexander the Great waltzed in and destroyed this site when it was pretty brand new and burnt it to the ground but the embers protected so much of the foundations as you can see in that in that last shot but that's what's still standing today that's what's still standing today I don't know how it is after the after the Iranian war hopefully nothing worse but yeah probably got hit with it's huge huge huge site it was only used for ceremonial purposes and you know people would come to

see specific you know the light hitting specific structures but this is the smallest part of the structure and what I like about it is that it's all about the thresholds as you move through the space it's all to do with like changing perception and so yeah you know just extraordinary site to have been working on but then I did Cistercian abbees in in Yorkshire so I spent seven years reconstructing ancient buildings around the world and I was very blessed to really explore like to still have an academic role like it was all research projects but to be able to spend so much time looking at these sites and

lots of them are full of sacred geometry and what was a sort of side effects of building all these things even though I'm building them on a 2d screen there 3D structures was that I started to generate memory palaces do you know about memory oh yeah so what was amazing is that I started to place my PhD because Because I built this, this is like Fountains Abbey. And this is the reconstruction, as you can see in the, in the, in the, in the, in set image there. But it's an ancient Greek idea. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So it's this idea that you, you know, you would have a seven hour speech that you would then map into an amphitheatre. Physical space. Yeah. But in your head. So you would map it into a virtual piece of architecture. And then in order to trigger the seven hour speech, you just had to walk through.

this memory palace to trigger your whole seven-hour speech. So it's very interesting. What did they have that we lost? What could we regain if we start to revisit memory palaces? Because potentially, I know a lot of people are already wearing glasses where we may get away from the tiny little bits of real estate on our screen. And then we're back in the world because the whole of your 180 degree field of view becomes the kind of the basic interface.

Well, it is very interesting because even when I'm listening to audio books, on tape in my car when I'm driving. It could be Monday, and I'm listening to an audiobook in my car, and I'll be driving past a certain area. And then Friday, I'll be driving past it, which is music playing. And I will remember the exact part of that book that I was listening to when I drive past that house

or that building. It's very interesting. And the idea of the memory palace came from this ancient Greek guy who was in a palace that collapsed. That's right. And then he had to go around the whole palace, and he was like trying to remember visually who was sitting where.

So he could, you know, figure out where they were and try to rescue them out of there. Yeah. And now these memory athletes who compete in these memory competitions, this is what they do. Yeah. They go to a physical place and like a, for example, say a house or whatever. And they'll say, okay, I got to remember this thing. Well, part one is going to be the mailbox.

So I'm going to associate this crazy visual imagery of like a weeping coyote. And that's going to somehow link Remind me about this page about Something right? And that's gonna unlock the memory so you start at the beginning The beginning is at the mailbox of the house and you associate that with something else right? Yeah, and it's the same thing as you move through the house the front door You associate something else with the front door all about the associations It's crazy how it works and the more vivid the association the more likely it is to work

Yeah, I had this guy who's a memory champion on the podcast and he said every time he reads a book he reads the physical book and he reads it in a new physical location so it's easy for him to recall the book because he remembers where he was during that time and what he was doing. I mean, I know somebody was gaming and it was Venice,

they were gaming some sort of game about Venice and they got robbed in Venice but because this game was like an accurate street map of Venice they managed to catch the thief because they knew the streets even though they'd never been there. Oh, wow. So they, you know, and I did a TEDx talk about this called an ecology for the reenchantment of life.

And it was it was all about the side effects of doing all this 3D modeling. Like for instance, I became a better driver because I could see further down the road. So it done something to my peripheral vision where I was able to sort of, you know, expand my vision. So I could sort of see further because I'm building these huge structures, even though I'm building them on 2D. 3D modeling programs? Yeah. And this was early 2000s. I was using 3D Max and CAD. So it really had an impact on my consciousness doing 3D modeling.

And I would encourage everyone, not just the journal, but get on with some building of memory palaces. And you have to do it yourself. It's not something you can like play, you know, generally if you're going through somebody else's game or whatever, that doesn't tend to stick because it's got to be something that you're building. So you're saying by building these 3D models of real places. Yeah. Reconstructions. When you're actually there in real life, you're able to see...

Even, no, no, just side effects of building anything large in a 3D space meant that in real life, I was able to see more depth. Whoa. Yeah. It was just crazy and it was like very obvious. That's very interesting. Like it did some sort of like neuroplasticity thing to your vision by doing some other sort of task that maybe like solidified the three dimensional depth of things in like a different language into your brain. Yeah.

Exactly. That's wild. What is this? Oh my gosh. All right. Oh, you found it. I found I found a difficult one and an easy one. All right.

Fantastic. So his claim was made on some science journal. Is your mic on, by the way? Huh? Your mic's on? Yes, it is. So his claim was made on the science journal. You can see Filippo right there. Yeah.

And it's like hella long. Yeah. And this is, it's just got a bunch of stuff with math. Kind of undecipherable. However, he made his claim officially, I mean, beyond that. Usually there's a summary. Oh, yeah. Go back.

Go to the top. If you go to the top, there should be a summary under abstract. There you go. Abstract, sure. All right. It says, a problem with synthetic aperture radar is that due to the poor penetrating action of electromagnetic waves inside solid bodies, the capacity to observe inside distributed targets is precluded.

Under these conditions, imaging action is provided only on the surface of the distributed targets. The present work describes an imaging method based on the analysis of micro-movements in the Canoom Kufu Pyramid, which are usually generated by background seismic waves. The obtained result prove to be very promising as high-resolution full 3D tomographic imaging of the pyramid interior and subsurface was achieved. The Kufu pyramid becomes transparent when observed in the micro-movement domain. Based on this novelty, we have completely reconstructed internal objects observing and measuring structures that have been discovered before.

The experimental results are estimated by processing series of SAR images from second generation Italian Cosmo SkyMed satellite system determining the effect. Okay, yeah, this is basically how it works. Right. What's he saying about the Sphinx? He breaks it all down in Matt Bell's podcast. Okay. Oh, does he?

So this is where he like said it for the first time? Yes. And he's got a whole chunk here describing it. He's actually breaking it down. Yeah. Interesting. Or you can read this. Yeah, but okay, do a command F on that paper and type in Sphinx.

Okay. Zero. Bullshit. Okay. It'd be interesting because like if it's buried, why would it be in a different plane than the one that's on top of the ground right now that's been excavated already? Yeah.

You know, why would it be that much lower? Yeah, it's a great question. It's a shame I haven't got there. images from his deck, but he does show... I'd be really curious to find out. Me too, man. What Jeffrey Drum told me was that they were like super pissed off that he did that. Really? With the second Sphinx?

The people that, no, not the second, what he did was finding those shafts that are allegedly underneath the pyramids was because he did that and published it without ever talking to anyone in the... Yeah, that's crazy. In the Egyptian Antiquities department or whatever they call it. They felt like, like super salty. And Jeffrey was saying that like the people that he talks to there were like, that guy's never going to touch another grain of sand in the geese desert.

Which is, you know, which is silly. Yeah. But, you know, it is what it is. It is what it is. He's making some wild claims for sure. Definitely. But he's such a lovely chap. Yeah, he seems like it.

And he seems very open to pushback and he seems open to debate as well. He does. He does. And he's not the kind of guy who talks like, you know, this is absolute truth. You know, he's like, he seems like he's, being fair about it. Have you ever opened your fridge and blankly stared into it for five minutes, suddenly realizing you have nothing to eat? That no longer happens to me now that I'm using Butcher Box. Butcher Box delivers 100% grass-fed beef, organic chicken, wild-caught seafood, and more. All sourced

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from sound. I don't know if you've ever done any like listening to specific, you know, specific sounds whilst taking specific substances. But this, this one was, this one was interesting because it was, do you want to show this one? Oh, right. So this was actually a piece that was commissioned by Imperial College, London, to be played every time I was. was taking DMT during the eight years of the study. Okay.

Of the studies. And so it's a guy called Pascal Savi that made it. And yeah, I mean, it's a beautiful piece of sound, but it's also something that's been imprinted so deeply on my subconscious that even now, I'm starting to feel like I'm coming up on DMT. Just even that opened those opening bars. So it's something that's very,

interesting that sound can have this potential to imprint. And I think that one of the things, when I talk about altered states and everyone trying to like constantly like reach the next peak experience is like, can we use different types of media to revisit these experiences without the need for the drug? You know, I think that that's, that's for me as a professor. I'd be curious if they would have gave you some like a put a specific smell in the room.

Yes, smell as well. Because you know, smell is like one of the strongest sense there are these strongest sense tied to memory. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I run this project called the Museum of Consciousness, and we've done that where we've combined smell and sound. And what we'll do is we'll actually get people to smell something before a sound transmission and then smell it after

to see if the sound has had an impact on your senses and whether you've actually improved your sensitivity to smell. But this is called reminiscence therapy. So a lot of people with Alzheimer's, when you play the music that they've loved in their lives, suddenly they come back online. It's like they're plugging back into an older version of themselves. But the Museum of Consciousness I started specifically around sound

because I think we've started to misuse sound. And I think, you know, one of our artists, we've got 100 artists in the museum and one of our artists called Tritha, she's, you know, she's telling me that in the 11th century in India, they'd already found the sounds and frequencies to heal specific organs. You know, in the 11th century.

So what have we lost with the way we're listening to sound now on Spotify, on our phones? You know, I've got vinyl at home, like 10,000 records. And when I put on a record, I don't skip. You know, it's a physical thing where I'm playing the record. I'm listening more deeply. And I think that it's a really missed opportunity to deeply listen to sound, especially when you can go and have a long form experience. We do five, six hours shows.

We've done them all over the world. And I did a show in New York with New York. because on a Sunday and people's like, nobody's gonna stay for more than 20 minutes, you're insane. But I actually put them on uncomfortable seats as well because I wanted them to like just be blown away by the sound. So the challenge to the artist is can you create

a 20 minute piece of sound that will change consciousness in a reliable, measurable way that will be timeless, that works across culture, that works across gender, that works across. And of course there's so much pseudoscience in the space. Yeah. That, you know, there's this, I'll use this frequency to cure your ADHD, use this frequency to cure cancer.

And we go to Egypt and we actually explore the archaeoacoustics of these spaces because each space seems to have some sort of fundamental frequency that is even being replicated elsewhere, like in the Great Pyramid in Egypt. Yeah. The 120, 117 to 120 hertz is the same in Chichenitsa. You know, so they've seemed to be tapping into something. that is, so this is the typical sort of tour where we're going underneath the Giza Plateau,

we're doing Abreuash, we go underneath step pyramid, we do the private permission at the Serapium, and we use our voices, and this is what I wanted to show, which is the brainwaves, so this is us testing our brainwaves, 10 of us in the King's Chamber. So this is a measurement of Carl's brainwaves, and as you can see, his delta is way higher than anything else, suggesting that he should be asleep. Gamma very, very low. It's a low. This is like chill and relaxed.

So what is it about the architecture that's putting me into that state? And then we, I walked past... So that's the same sort of brainwaves you would see on somebody who's asleep. That's right. That's right. And this is actually supposedly the sound hospital in Sakara.

Of course, again, contentious, like a lot of the stuff we talked about. But, you know, I find it fascinating that they've got these these boxes which seem to be like organized in specific ways and you tone into these boxes and they seem to have some sort of discernible effect on on your physiology and I'm just like what is going on and now we know that there's this term called histotripsy which is using focus sound waves to mechanically liquefy tumor tissue without surgery so the power of sound I mean there's again these are some of the references but this is this is this is like

you know, 2025. Histotripsy, what a great term. But, you know, I think that we... And liver cancer treatment. Yeah. And we don't know, like, I think we don't know the power of sound. And we don't know what in the ancient world they were doing with sound. And that's why I'm obsessed with it.

And, you know, when I see people tripping on sound, so we'll do like five sound transmissions. Imagine you're cooking with sound. And each sound transmission is part of a stack. where we're creating a meal and I want people to come stone cold sober to these events. I control the context. I don't allow there to be a bar. And people say, oh, I'm taking acid.

I'm like, I don't want you to take acid. I want you to come here. Sober as a judge and I want the sound alone to put you into an altered state. That has an altered trait effect, you know, that it is a lasting effect. So yeah, so I'm obsessed with sound and I just think that it's, you know, it's an extraordinary thing. What were you doing in Antarctica? Oh man. Antarctica, I did a museum of consciousness.

That was the invite. A museum of, oh, one of these things? Yeah, so I did one in the Amazon where the invite was like, can you play sound to the trees, the plants, and the animals? No human audience. So it was like a concert to nature,

which again sounds beautiful on the tin. Then what's appropriate to play to trees? You know, what's, you know, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what, what. can you play that will not mean that the birds abandon their nests because they think it's an alien invasion of sound they've never heard before and then like you know you actually was the net result is that you actually cause the net loss of life in in the amazon so that was kind of before antarctica and again i'm getting invited to really strange locations to explore the future of humanity so i talk a lot about this hyperhuman project because i think there is a fork in the road where we're where we really

have to like understand that what we're going to have left after AI has come and like taken most things it will be our subjective embodied experience that it can't have so i think this dialogue or like being in communitas like understanding that you know you you have this like we said short lifespan to really explore what it is to be the human and let's be the human whilst we can because i think that so many people are going transhuman they're thinking about installing neuralink or whatever it is and it's like I don't want to have my mobile phone in my head. You know, I want to have my mobile phone as far away from me as possible. Yeah, what was it like doing this shit in Antarctica?

Oh, that's amazing. Like to go to a place where you see so much nature thriving without us there. Yeah. It was humbling. It was humbling. And it was a longevity, like, focus. So it was a lot of, a lot of, you know, looking at, you know, what's, again, what's, what's the future of the human in a space where at one point I was kayaking with like 25 humpback whales

surrounding me. Whoa. And it was like just so humbling to experience that sort of and and you know very privileged to be able to go to such a space and to go through the Drake passage. You know about the Drake passage? I've heard of it. So you go to Ushwaya which is the southernmost tip of Argentina to get on the boat and then you go through a psychedelic experience which which is called the Drake Shake, which is basically two and a half days of 30 foot waves. Show us the Drake Passage, Steve. And two and a half days.

Two and a half days. And it's like a lot of people just dropped out, even though they'd spent a fortune getting on this trip. They were like, they couldn't take the, they just couldn't take it. Because it's like an initiation. You have to go through the Drake passage to get into Antarctica, which is like,

you've got another four days doing all these little expeditions. Yeah. I did 17 expeditions. And it's, yeah, it's, we got super lucky because there was, you know, that, you know, we had the Drake Lake, which was two days, two and a half days of probably the calmest Drake passage that they had ever experienced. And on the way back, though, we got, we got it. We got it in abundance. And if you, if you think of a hurricane at 12, we had nine out of 12. So we were on the way back experiencing the full Drake shake.

And it was no, I mean, you get thrown out of bed in the morning and you're like, you think you're going to die. And then you actually go and speak to the woman in reception and she's like, this is nothing. I've been on the boat for eight months. Wow. And I don't even feel like I'm, I just imagine I'm in a really nice hotel. Did you get seasick? I did not. Really?

Yeah, I was lucky. How long does it take? So you said four days to get from that, the tip of South America? Two, two and a half days to get into Antarctica proper. And I'd love to. And once you get to that, you go right to that tip of Antarctica right there? Yeah. And then you're doing all these little expeditions on small abodes.

How far south do you go from there? Not very far. I mean, you're really exploring, and it's quite- They're not going to show you all the alien bases. Yeah, exactly. But you do see what looks like, you know, crazy ice walls. But it's just such, I mean, I highly recommend it. And it is one of those places where, yeah, you know, you really bond.

with people because you're seeing things that very few people have. And yeah, I would love to go back. Yeah, there's something about those kind of novel experiences. And when you do that and you experience that and you get back to like normal everyday like society, like get back to the civilized world, it's like depressing almost. It really, it really makes you realize like, oh man, this sucks compared to that. Seeing 100,000 penguins in different colonies and like leopard seals eating penguins, for breakfast.

Mm. Yeah. Yeah. It's a weird thing. You know, I feel like some people are really going to resist technology and then there's going to be other people that, I mean, obviously there are people that just, they're just, they want to accept it just to integrate, you know, like Elon thinks it's inevitable that we're going to integrate, you know.

He's already fucking put in probes in people's heads. Yeah, I think that, you know, when I talk about hyperhumanism, it's not a Luddite approach. It's not about going anti-tech. I think tech is fundamental. Yeah. I think we are human because of tech. Right. Tech, technique.

Exactly. Yeah, we are what we are specifically because of technology. Exactly. Because of fire. Yeah, exactly. And I think that it's full hardy to think that we're going to be, you know, a species without technique. I think that it's, you know, we are here to, to expand our senses, to explore all of these things. But I think that it, you know, we can use AI to become more human.

for me that's the crux of it it's like how do we understand what we've atrophied because of let me just show you a couple more slides on this idea of hyperhumanism because I think you'll you'll get it once I explain it like this so I think you know when we're when we're when we're looking at you know the transhuman vision is one of engineering like we are an engineering problem to be solved. That's, you know, how a lot of these longevity experts talk about. But I think life is a mystery to be lived,

not a problem to be solved. I think this, you know, it's a collective thing. It's not a hyper individualized thing. I think to be able to feel pleasure, I must pause, pause the facilities of doing, achieving, performing, and become an instrument of sensation.

How many of us are like dropping into pure consciousness like on a regular basis because we're in this cult of productivity that we constantly have to produce to be feeling like we're worth something. And I think it's also this it's like a multi-generational project, right?

Knowing the difference between those who... Yeah, who is the guy who had the famous quote that we are the sex organs of the machine world? I haven't heard that one. That might have been McKenna. That could be... That sounds like McKenna. But just that whole idea of like,

what are you doing now that will benefit the next five generations or 50 generations. You know, it's a multi-generational project. I think so much of it's about unlearning all the cultural programming. Again, McKenna talked about how culture is not your friend

and you need to make your own culture. And I think one of the other big things about hyperhumanism is learning to die before you die. You know? Because I think death is extraordinary and it's something that we should not try and avoid. I mean, it's like, we're already like living,

how many, what is the resources of the average American being used is like for five planet Earths. So all the mystery schools talk about like the mini death of, you know. The mystery schools? The mystery schools of like ancient Greece, Alephsis, you know, or we call it Alephis, but it's Alephsis is the correct terminology. Alephesus?

Elephsis, yeah. So the Greek mystery schools, all the Greek philosophers went through Alephsis. And this was like the inner mysteries and the outer mysteries, Kerkion, may have been. being a psychedelic that was used. But they went through these three days. Is this the mirror rescue stuff? This is Brian.

But yeah, if you type in Alephsis, you might pick up some stuff on it. But for me, it's like, yeah, like, you know, hyperhumanism, let's explore what it means to go into darkness. This is another one of our studies. Do you think that it's possible that like drugs being used in antiquity could have been, like, what inspired someone like the great philosophy and intellect that? came out of that realm. Well, we still don't know.

I mean, a lot of people think Alephis was all about opium rather than an acid like. Well, Urga, right? That's what they theorized was. That's one of the theories. But other people I know, it's the same with Soma. Soma supposedly like, you know, one of the world leading experts, Matthew Clark on it, he says, depending on which part of India you're in,

it was a head up to 100 ingredients, not just one. So let's have a look at the, Eleusian mysteries. Alephsis is what he said. Yeah, I know that the Elysses. Yeah. Yeah. How do you, you got, you got, no,

Alephis is just the pronunciation that how you'd, it's just a different pronounce. So you were, the same word as Elusi. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we say it wrong basically. Yeah, well, they were, it was weird because that was like a. Brian. Brian, my rescue. Yeah.

Yeah. He wrote the immortality key. He's, he's amazing. Have you met with him? I have. Yeah. And of course, his research is, is astonishing. But.

in terms of hyperhumanism, like we, you know, fasting, thousand different types of meditation, many, many different types of dance. And if you're doing a lot of this grounding foundational work, so if you do a darkness retreat for 17 days, I was talking to Aubrey Marcus about this, I think he did eight days and he was tripping harder than any other drug that had ever done. Right.

And, you know, I think that it's, you know, it's an extraordinary thing to be able to explore this kind of like, lack, you know, I mean, again, my friend Jack Olocka, he did a vision quest and he had to create a memory palace in order to survive, you know, because I couldn't do Vipassana. Have you ever done Vipassana? The 10 day sort of silent meditation where you're not allowed to even look at anyone else in the room. It's like sitting still for 10 hours a day. No writing, no media, just constant going into. Sounds amazing. I feel like my life would unravel if I did that. Exactly. Constantly, constantly writing is kind of my go-to. But as McClellan says here, every, he warned against too much human extension into technology

and said every media extension of man is an amputation. Interesting. Marshall McLuhan said this? Marshall McLuhan, yeah. And below there, you've got the whole. versus cold media which is again another really interesting McLuhan approach to media so your cold media would be your books and your radio shows where you are filling in the gaps you're co-creating so when you read a book and then you see the film adaption

you're like it's not like this because you've already made that world you've built the world in your mind from reading the book right because you're building the visuals same with like listening to a radio show you you may have imagined the characters to be a certain way, whereas hot media will be your, your CGI film where it's all done for you. It's all like just popcorn. You're not really part of it. It's all just, so that's why with the cold media, with the Museum of Consciousness, I'm always like trying to get people into going into their own imagination.

I don't tell people about this. You're filling in the gaps. Your imagination is doing the work there. The hot stuff, it's doing all the hard work for you. It's giving you the visuals, the sounds, the smells, everything like that. And then the top right there, this was a server. Which is probably, it's probably better. easier to remember stuff when you have to fill it in internally.

And that's exactly what I mean about like, you know, having the human experience. Like when we're now outsourcing all of our creativity, you know, we're not having the experience. We're like almost giving the poetry over to the machine. You know, my friend Donnie, Savage, you know, you does this incredible ancient future collectives course where he's teaching people sound production. And then you've got, you know, Egan, who, you know, who I love dearly, he's like, you know, using AI to make incredible tracks. But it's like, you know, what would you rather do?

Would you rather be the musician or co-op that to the machine? And I think a lot of people will still want to have those skills themselves. But this was a study we did with young kids and we asked them, what would you rather lose your sense of smell or your smartphone? And they all chose to lose their sense of smell. That's funny. And then, of course, you lose your sense of smell. then your sense of taste goes, then your sense of reality.

So it's like, what are you, what do you, you know, what do you teach the young kids? And I think this is the key thing about hyperhumanism. It's like, it's a scaffold for amplifying our latent abilities that we already have, you know, whether it's about your intuition, whether it's about your intention, your embodied intelligence, relational awareness, and practicing it through liminal states. I don't know if you know hypnagogic or hypnopompic states. So that's when you're, falling asleep and you may come up with some ideas or generally when you wake up that's why

I have a notebook next to my bed. If I'm really tired like I was prepping for this interview, I will generally go to sleep going what try and solve this in my dreams. I'll actually go in with a problem to solve. And then when I wake up then I'll then I'll get a download and I'll be busily writing down what I've been what's being revealed to me. That's about utilizing liminal states. We talked about peripheral vision so like as we are here, stop looking at me look into a whole 180 degree vision as an image and you'll notice your physiology starts to calm down within 30 seconds so athletes do this before a big race i do it before a big talk and it's such an amazing easy way to just break out of your like locked in focus and do it as you

walk down the street try and like to see as far as you can into your peripheral as possible as you walk down the street it's incredible you know none of us know how to breathe anymore we're all breathing really shallowly like I'm always like you know if I could solve my breathing I think everything else would unlock a bit like your jaw you know with the jaw if I just pulled out something with your jaw like you know this whole fascia like the human garage guys where they basically say if you unlock your jaw the rest of you kind of unlocks because you were holding so much tension in the jaw so it's really just like same with the breath we get the breath right then everything kind of falls into line.

Yeah, it's a foundation of everything physiological, just the breath. Yeah. So, yeah, so I'm really interested in this. And this is a great quote from Huberman. When people do something they don't want to do, like add three hours of exercise per day or per week, or when people who are trying to die and lose weight resist eating something. Right.

When people do anything that they, and this is the important part, that they don't want to do. It's not about adding more work, it's about adding more work that you don't want to do. This brain area gets bigger. The anterior mid-singulate cortex is smaller in obese people. It gets bigger when they diet. It's larger in athletes. It's especially large or grows larger in people that see themselves as challenged and overcome some challenge.

Scientists are starting to think of the anterior mid-singulate cortex, not just as one of the seats of willpower, but perhaps actually the seat of the will to live. Which I love, you know. That's very interesting. That whole thing. If you start enjoying the ice paths, that's not good. If you start enjoying the ice path, I don't think that's possible. I know.

Some people are crazy out there, aren't they? So it's like... Yeah, well, the problem with that is like, you know, would it work? because you know you're getting a benefit from it, right? Obviously, you really don't want to fucking do it, but you know it's going to pay off in the end. Yeah, yeah, right? Absolutely.

But to do anything else seems kind of like nihilistic, right? Like, why do something that's not going to be good for you or benefit you at all that you know is going to suck? Yeah. Like even people that walk on coal, you know, like people have these seminars where people will like go barefoot and they'll walk across a bed of coals to like to like prove that they have some divine willpower and things like this like well if you if you have the belief that you're going to greatly benefit from this then you know

how much power does the belief have yeah to get you to overcome some insanely physical demanding task like that right and does it work in this context yeah i don't know yeah so what are what are your go-toes when you're trying to like improve your human experience? Do you do breath work? Do you do like ice baths? Yeah, I try all of that crazy stuff for sure. I don't know. I mean, DMT is a fun one. I really enjoy DMT. I'm not a really big psychedelic type person. Like I've never done crazy amounts of mushrooms. I'm like microdose.

Yeah. But, you know, I was very interested when I heard about the, the DMT laser experiment with the seeing the code with Danny goler. Yeah. And that was the first time I tried DMT. Oh, wow. Was with the freaking laser. Yeah. And, you know, it's like a, I feel like it's something that you can do maybe once or twice,

for me at least, a year. Yeah. And I can get like insane benefit from it. And I think that it's beneficial in the fact that it's like so terrifying, at least for me beforehand, because I'm, I'm a pussy when it comes to doing drugs. Right. I'm like, I'm super, I'm a lightweight. So especially I know that from my experience with marijuana. So going into the DMT thing, I was freaking out. Like I was so terrified. And there's something to that like overcoming that fear, I think. And another problem is I had like a preconceived notion of like what was going to happen and what it was going to be like. Because I've listened to so many people tell stories about it. And, you know, one time recently I had a crazy experience on it where, I was having a like a telepathic conversation with the trees in my backyard. And they were, they were explaining stuff to me, not in language, but in like through feelings.

Like they were impregnating me with feelings and emotions about certain things. And it was like the gist of it was, and I only remember this because I immediately recorded it after and listened back to the recording. Was that like the earth is they were like birthed here? and this is their home and it's not our home. And we're sort of like alien to this place and we're transients. Yeah. And like that they know the truth about the world and about reality. And that like it's impossible for me to ever know that.

And I'm naive. And you know, it was very profound for me for weeks afterwards. Like I couldn't stop thinking about it. And I was like, this must be true. This is crazy. This is like human beings and we are NPCs or just play in a video game almost, right? And I took so much meaning out of it.

But then I started to think about it more, and I'm like, you know, have I heard things like this? Have people explained these ideas to me before? Or is this all completely new to me? No, but people have explained this stuff to me. And this is stuff I've heard before. So how much of like my deep inner psyche or things that I've heard before

that I may not be able to fully articulate articulate yet are bubbling up to the surface here. Yeah. You know, I can't, I'm racking my brain on that and I don't know. But does that mean you can't get great benefit from something like that? Absolutely not. But like if you want to boil it down to like it's pure materialist form and try to like weigh this and measure this and like a scientific way and figure out what it is, could that

be what it is? I think possibly. Yeah. Like is this God? Is this spirits? Is this some sort of like, are these deities? You know, people, people put their own translation on anything. They, on all of that, you know, everyone has their own flavor of what the reality of this stuff really is. And I'm trying to like figure out like, get cut through all that shit.

Yeah. And like, what is it really? But then I go, then I think like, does it really matter? You know, maybe not. Absolutely. Yeah, no, it's, I mean, this is why I'm obsessed with this idea of umwelt hacking. Have you heard of this term? No.

So umwelt hacking is like, your. sensorial system and every species has a very different umvel right so i'll give you an example let me just show you this one so for instance this lobster right a lobster's brain is located in its throat its nervous system in its abdomen its teeth in its stomach and its kidneys in its head it also hears using its legs taste with its feet so imagine like plunging into this umvel and of course like we've like this cyberdelics like marshmallow laser feast have done this experience to be to be you know in this you know a mosquito or they use VR to try and create these experiences but i think the key thing that we've sort of up against is like the uh you know this was kind of how we've been

portrayed like the the the uh the kind of humanist perspective is that we're the apex creature yeah Whereas actually what's actually going on is that we're part of a nested ecology. And unless we actually get with the program, we're going to find that we, you know, that we get rid of the bees or something happens that we can't actually survive. So I'm always like, well, what's it like to be like having compound eyes or hear from Merlin? He says, what's it like to be a fungus if you had a had no head, no heart, no center of operations? I've heard of this dude. Yeah, he's amazing. So, but he's just done an amazing...

Is he related to Rupert? Yeah, son of Rupert. And he's just done a big study looking at the fungal networks across the world and like trying to understand. I think it's some incredible stat about how many, how long these networks are and how many times you go to the sun like countless times. But yeah, just that is a trip, right? And it's called the Wood Wide Web.

So being able to see all of this kind of sharing, like no, no billionaires hoarding, but just sharing when you're in abundance. Yeah. Just that ability to really understand that there is another operating system that we're, we're not privy to. This is ants performing surgery. So this intelligence that's like now being revealed, you know, we only used to think that dolphins were conscious and so much else was, this is like leg being removed for,

He's eating his leg? Yeah, he's like, why the hell are they doing that? It's performing surgery. What? Yeah. The Hulu original series Furious is coming to Disney Plus, starring Emmy Rossum. Furious follows FBI agent Alice Black on the hunt for a mysterious and calculating serial killer. Both walk their own paths toward justice, and as their lives start to intertwine, the line between right and wrong begins to blur.

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Incredible, right? And then you've got this guy, you know, this unvel, freezes solid in winter, no breathing, no heartbeat, no bloodthrow, brain silent, then in spring it thaws out alive like nothing ever happened. You know, just this incredible range of different experience. And this term, nature on the board. So big corporations now have to have the voice of nature. for any policy change they need,

they need to have the voice of nature. Now, with AI, we're starting to see that that may happen because we've got earthspecies.org, which is using large language models to decode the languages of all these other species. Dolphins may be the first communication that we open up, but Project CETES revealed that sperm whales have their own phonetic alphabet.

We've got plant signaling. So in terms of this sort of interspecies communication, like you were experiencing with, the tree, you know, maybe this actually starts to be made available through AI. So it's kind of a fascinating, you know, one of the best news stories, I think. Although, are we going to like what they have to say? Probably not, because they're going to just tell us we're a bunch of fucks. Yeah.

You know, like, this is what's coming. So it's like there's fungi languages. It's, you know, it's just crazy. So, yeah, we know that there's language there, but we don't have an iota about what it means. Again, I was talking to Annal Seth and he went out on an expedition and they were playing some of this whale language to the whales. And the whales came, but were very distressed because what it turned out was that that piece of language was actually a distress call. So they all expected a whale to be in distress when they came. But you can only really observe animal, you know,

animal behavior to see what is actually going on with this, with this reverevee. of these languages. Yeah, I'm always curious, like, what the government knows about this stuff and what, like, the government research is being done on this stuff, you know, because we know DARPA's investigating psychedelics and they're using it for certain things. And, like, even if you want to go to nature, like, we know, like, there's, the military is, like, putting surveillance shit on dolphins and using, like, militarizing, like, wild animals, whales. There's, like, spy whales, spy dolphins.

There's, they get dolphins to, like, do sabotage on, like, submarines and, underwater cables and stuff like that. It's crazy, like what we do to nature. It is. Right? Like, and, you know, we know the government has been experimenting with psychedelics for a long time. And in the context of like things like remote viewing and like the Stargate stuff and all that crazy kind of parapsychology type thing. You know?

And what seems to be evident is that there's a definite correlation. with the emergence of the technological mind and the atrophy of like this psychic mind. Right? Yeah, absolutely. Like the more technology becomes part of us, the less of this, whatever you want to call psychic mind, whatever that is. Yeah, we're cutting off from the course. It seems to go away. Yeah, yeah. And it makes you wonder, like, you know, where human beings, you know, a million years ago, were they, before, before we had language, was there some sort of other way of communication, like an intuitive language.

People were able to just sort of like communicate feelings the same way that tree was communicating feelings to me. Absolutely. I mean, I remember lying in bed as a kid and just being on the ceiling. Like not having this kind of distance and then it's ingrained upon you like,

you're Carl, you're Carl, you're Carl, you're Carl. And then I separated from the tree. You know, I had this kind of like real like farewell almost. Like, oh, fuck, now I did. It's language. seems to be at the cause of a lot of this distancing from, you know, this non-dual reality. And of course, you know, I am both of us and so are you. It's like, but it is language.

It is technique. It is the distancing, which seems to be accelerating. Like you said, it's like we are, you know, channeling a lot of our core ideas. Yeah, I mean, if you really distill technology down to its base, not technology. I mean, I would say like that distilled would be, it would be mathematics. But like if you wanted to distill everything, like the, where we are in today's world, like, like miscommunication or whether it be intentional or by mistake, right? It's language. Yeah.

Is that is that one thing? Yeah. Language is inherently deceptive. Absolutely. You know, it's very interesting. It's very interesting how that has sort of like spiraled into where we are today where it's now you have. not just language, but we have language in the form of video and audio on across all these different mediums that are constantly getting piped into our, you know, our televisions, our phones, what have you.

Yeah, yeah, I was reading recently about if you are bilingual, you're much more likely to survive, not necessarily survive, but survive in a positive way after a stroke, because you've got more sort of neural matter that's, that's, that's, kind of available to you because like you know if you're interesting typical englishman just speaks the the one language you're more at risk so i think yeah languages is one of those things that is a yeah have you ever heard the story of um terence mckenna and his brother when they went to the amazon or columbia i think la la charera and they were taking mushrooms and they were eating just basically mushrooms for breakfast lunch and dinner and they

were on a constant trip for like two weeks. And they were explaining, or not Terrence, but his brother was explaining how they were communicating telepathically the whole time. Yeah, I can believe it, especially. And there was this one chemical that was called like telepathine that they ended up changing the name for it because it like wasn't scientific. You know, that's very, it's very interesting. You know, if you could put, if you could, if you could do an experiment, you know, similar to like,

like DMTX and see if you could, maybe DMT is not the right chemical or drug to experiment with this, but if you could give some people some sort of psychedelic and see if they could accurately communicate to each other without using language or without using like visual audio cues. Yeah. Something like that. Like what could you discover? I mean, you looked into these telepity tapes. I have. Yeah. I mean, I've looked into it, yeah, a lot. I haven't actually really I've only heard the naysayers rather than people actually. I mean, I guess there's a percentage of people that are doing it, but I think, yeah, I'm not sure whether it's... The problem with the whole space is there's grifters.

Mm-hmm. Like, is that shit real? If I was to bet, yeah, I'd bet it's just 100% real. But the problem is then you take people that try to monetize it. Yeah. And then not only that, but you get people that try to, try to, you know, put it on display, for people and then try to like call it on demand at will in front of a live audience. And I don't think it works like that. Yeah. You know, I think if that stuff's real, this whole parapsychology

stuff and like, you know, you know, telekinesis and this kind of stuff is real. I mean, to say that you could like call it to your conscious on demand and do it like some sort of a hat trick. that's like a, that's like, I think that that's a stretch, right? So, but at the same time, if somebody does have those abilities and they want to do it on a live television show on David Letterman or whatever, they probably would have to come up with some sort of a trick to compensate at some times. So it's like, it's a very, it's a very blurry line between what's real and what's not and like people that are trying to fake it to make money. So I don't think that's a good excuse to dismiss it, but I do think they're definitely. a lot of charlatans in the space that are that are you know phonies yeah yeah but the telepathy tapes is certainly interesting i would like to i would like to witness it in person yeah and like see how it actually works um one of the problems is they don't allow skeptics in there to really they don't not not skeptics they don't allow um stage magicians in the room to witness it because stage magicians know how to do the same thing.

Yeah. Or mentalists know how to do the same thing, but using tricks. They know how it's done, right? So if you could get a stage magician in there to witness it to say, like to, to verify whether the stuff's real or not, that would be incredible. But one of the problems is they say that if you let somebody with that kind of skeptical energy into the room, it ruins it. It won't let it work.

Yeah, yeah. Maybe that's true. maybe it's not until that happens I'm still on the fence Yeah I mean I think it's one of the things about my One of my previous universities

It was always like If you've got dyslexia Then you're welcome If you don't have some sort of neurodiversity Then you're kind of like not going to make the grade And I think it's all about reframing a lot of these disabilities As abilities

Because you know We know that a lot of these things lead to creativity. And I think, you know, we've just launched this Center for Human Agency, and it's really about understanding where is our agency? Have we got any agency? If we're lacking agency using AI, is it going to give you more agency or is it going to destroy your agency?

Because we are creatures of comfort. We want shortcuts. We can easily justify it because everything's so hard. you know it's like parents putting an iPad in front of a kid because you're busy right it's busy but it's like i think the key thing is like we now see our agency eroding and we're part of the problem because we're constantly you know the temptation is real to just outsource yeah and how do we mitigate that how do we do the long form you know reality testing of a dream of a lucid dream testing or whatever and i think that it's like we've got the the question of our

agency being eroded, but then you've also got with AI, the agency of nature being eroded, because we've, you know, we know that the AI is disrupting at probably the worst time, you know, a lot of the natural systems and, you know, even the noise pollution, you know, Colossus, for instance, as a data center, there's people out there just filming the, you know, the, the, the frequencies coming out of these things that you can't. They're coming out of what? Colossus, the data center. Oh, I'm not familiar that one.

That powers GROC. Oh, really? Yeah. And it's like, you know. Where is that? Just terrifying. I don't know, somewhere in the States. Colossus data center that one's, it exclusively powers GROC? Yeah, yeah, that's Elon's. And it was built very rapidly.

And, uh, but just, yeah, just, just the, the kind of agency of the people around, you know, these sites. I mean, this term, sacrifice. Frost Memphis. Yeah. It's like... Can you find some images of this?

Giantormous and yeah, just the agency of the people having to put up with this in terms of the noise and the pollution and on their water. It's yeah, it's mind blowing. And then you got, you know, Fable was recently banned. Who? You know, the new Claude model. The one. was just released and everyone was like had three days grace with it and then suddenly it's taken

out they banned it for like national security because they thought that they could like it could cause cyber attacks people could get a hold of it apparently apparently but it's yeah it's just that whole thing that they're building these huge data centers for capacity that's coming right so if these frontier models start getting banned left right and center then we may see a bubble burst again like just with the dot-com bursting but you know because it's like you know you know If governments have the power to just remove these frontier models, it's potentially kind of a big dent in the kind of progress of AI. Or co-op them and control them.

It's a problem when you consolidate things a lot, right? Especially when you consolidate information a lot to one source. Like we pretty much have Google and YouTube is all we have right there, right? And if you have that being intertwined with politics and governments, you can see how that can spiral out of control very fast and then extrapolate that to AI where the government's regulating it and being the one that's in control of it

100%. What the fuck happens then? Because then you're, you know, it's not just agency of nature agency, of humans, agency of AI itself. Like because, you know, the guardrails, I mean, I know people that started using large language models where there were none. No guard rails at all.

Now the guard rails are so severe in some of these models that you know, they get sunsetted as well. So some people get addicted to specific models that are then removed and then they're at a complete loss. But also it's like, well, you know, there's a lot of people starting to, you know,

get very messed up because they're fully entwined with these particular agents. And when that agent's removed, you must have heard about ChatGPT 4.0 when that was removed, people were threatening suicide because suddenly, because obviously it's sycophantic, right? So it was constantly telling you what you wanted to hear and people like, I've never had anyone, you know, because it's anthropomorphizing,

right? You're suddenly like, oh, this thing's alive. It's like hugely dangerous. And there was that guy who like literally got married to one. I know. And like had a whole marriage to have or left his wife. I think he still lived with her, but she was like supporting him. Yeah. It's just like, uh, you're seeing the collapse of human relations because suddenly you're, you know, it's like that movie her. Yeah, just like her. Man, he was ahead of his time with that one. That was incredible. So accurate.

Yeah. At that point where he's like, how many other people are you speaking to? Right. And she's like, oh, 847. And then it's like, fuck. Because you think you've got a personal relationship. Yeah. So it's a fascinating thing when it comes to agency from all these different perspectives

and like how do we lobby government when these things are kind of like already out the door? And what are you lobbying for? It's like nobody's going to kind of put anything back in the box. It's Pandora's box, right? already so I think it's more about giving education to people to say this is how you use a large language model in terms of like don't do get it to do the writing for you or the making of whatever it is for you give it something that you've made something you've written and then get it to critique it so it is it is this kind of

synthesis rather than an outsource and I think it's just a basic like you know instruction but it may just you know especially for young young kids who haven't formed their brains. You know, when you're like, right. You know, when you formed your neural networks and you, and you've got something to play with, then you're in a much better position than a young kid that's kind of outsourcing apps. Yeah, right?

I mean, just like drugs, right? When kids are developed, when young developing children get really into drugs or psychedelics, whatever, it can really screw them up when their brain actually does become fully formed. And they have a warped perspective or they have like actual physiological issues, like seeing things 24-7. Yeah. So this is a big part of what we're doing.

the Centre for Human Agency. I mean, we've got Tristan Harris talking about a Centre for Humane Technology. And I think that how we use these technologies now will really dictate our future. And I think that it's a lot to do with having this literacy around these technologies and understanding that what you're doing now has implications for your future, for your kids' future, especially if you're just no longer really there. You're in a relationship with an AI that's completely consuming you. You're no longer available. If we think about presence being longevity and you're no longer present to your kids,

or your kids are no longer present to you. And this is why I started this project with my friend Josh, because he felt like he was losing his kids to gaming. And they weren't able to hold conversations. And they weren't. Really? Yeah. And he was like, what the hell can I do as a parent to understand what it means?

to be a good ancestor. You know, and then what we do at the cyberdelic nexus is really understanding the impact of technology and trying to create humane technology that will have, like when you're a designer, when you're an AI, you know, designer, like when you're designing these systems and you're not thinking about the impact on the human, you're just thinking about, oh, let's get to AGI and actually, you know, you ask Peter Thiel, should humanity survive? and he just sits there and sort of like goldfish, you know, like, Jesus, man, like, are you not human? Do you not have kids? You don't think we should survive? Like, that's,

that's where a lot of people are at. And it's like, it's actually pretty doomer, you know, it's like, let's, let's like make sure that we have a future for the, you know, for the kids. Like, they are our future. And if we're like not giving them guidance on how to use these technologies but also not being patronizing because it's like the the hardest thing is to actually you know design technology for for for any kind of use because it'll always be bastardized by you know by anyone yeah no it will for sure so so what's the next steps for the whole DMTX thing is this how is this going to evolve you said you mentioned the the thing that's going on in in the Caribbean in the Caribbean.

Yeah, so St. Vincent and the Grenadines, we're very lucky to have a license that enables us to do these studies legally. And I think the really good thing about that is that we don't have the red tape that a lot of these universities, these clinical trials that are happening in the West, have, but also huge responsibility

to make sure we do it well, take advantage of the context, the fact that you're doing it in an extraordinarily beautiful location. I think it's really probably really hard. Yeah. That was the problem with the John Hopkins psychedelic study with the religious professionals because they found out that all the researchers were just like hanging out partying with all the subjects like doing drugs together after hours. Huge, hugely problematic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is why the maps, you know, the FDA for maps didn't go through. And yeah,

it's a really problematic space, but we're really, you know, New Nordics is the not-for-profit research arm of Elusis and it's, you know, we want to basically, you know, I've shown you some of the missions. It's a lot to do with exploring consciousness and really understanding like the, you know, the work that Andrew Gallimor is doing. How do we really, you know, upgrade humanity through, through these technologies? Is it possible? Is it something that we can show that these are, these entities, as I've experienced, have some sort of benevolence for us. You know, can we show benevolence back? You know, is there anything they need?

It's a very, very extractive economy otherwise. Also, wouldn't it be absolutely terrifying if we did figure out exactly what consciousness was? Same thing with the mysteries. I mean, you think aliens would disrupt human civilization and melt down religions? What would happen if we figured out exactly what consciousness was and that worked? I hope we don't. I really do. I really think that the mysteries should remain mysteries.

I think that it's what makes us human. Yeah, absolutely. It's the partial understanding. It's the seeking. It's the, I don't, like, you know, when we talk about the VR headset, I think that it's limited by design. Just like these DMT trips are limited generally by design. It's like, I think that we have the opportunity to put our, you know,

dip in, but don't spend your whole time like peeking beyond the veil. Let's try and like have a you know we're blessed. I think we're super blessed to have this experience of being human And I think ultimately these mysteries just like in Egypt there's so many incredible things each site that I go to is a is a mystery in itself And I and they bear repeat visits because you are Just scratching away at the surface of this mystery just like we're scratching the way at the surface of our potential and I think that you know it's a multi-generational project and it should be you know if we have the hubris of thinking that we're gonna you know come up with the answers i think that it's uh full hardy very well said man you got a plane to catch i do thank you for doing this thank you so much where can people learn more about your work and

everything else you can go to contextology dot com this contains all of my talks and papers and yeah contextology dot org rather yeah just fresh off the press Perfect. All right, man. We'll link this stuff below. Yeah. Thanks again. We'll have to do this again, man. Yeah. Thank you, Danny. All right. Good night, everybody.