Danny Jones Podcast - #415 - Area 51 Officer / NASA Apollo Engineer Finally Speaks Out | TD Barnes

Episode Date: July 20, 2026

Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones TD Barnes is a former field engineer at NASA who also served in Special Projects at Area 51. His engineering work extended to the X-15, XB-70, lifting bodies, and lunar landing vehicles, as well as NASA's NERVA nuclear rocket project at Jackass Flats, Nevada. SPONSORS https://quo.com/danny - Try QUO for free PLUS get 20% off your first 6 months. https://www.amentara.com/go/dj - Use code DJP22 for 22% off your first order. https://livemomentous.com - Use code DANNY for up to 35% off your entire first order. https://theperfectjean.nyc/danny15 - Use code DANNY15 for 15% off The Perfect Jean. https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off. EPISODE LINKS (TD's new book) Secret Skies: https://a.co/d/06V47gN8 FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - Tracking high-speed aircraft for NASA 05:01 - Newly declassified 1960s CIA projects 07:38 - CIA operated Area 51 in secret for 20 years 13:48 - Operation Northwoods 16:50 - Attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro 19:58 - Getting recruited to work at Area 51 29:53 - Aircraft tests at Area 51 36:47 - Early days of Area 51 mystery 46:26 - Sheep dipping CIA recruitment tactic 51:24 - What we're still using U2 aircraft for 54:20 - Origin of UFO myths at Area 51 57:47 - Why Bob Lazar's Area 51 story can't be real 01:01:31 - Truth about S4 "Site 4" 01:02:45 - Annie Jacobsen is persona non grata 01:09:09 - Pilot reports of UAPs 01:17:28 - Plasma, anti-gravity & acoustic radar 01:21:26 - TD doesn't believe in non-human entities 01:31:16 - ECMs and ECCMs 01:38:07 - TD's work with the DIA 01:39:59 - Project Redlight 01:44:01 - Where the new "Area 51" is located 01:46:19 - The X-15 program 01:53:29 - Radiation exposure at Area 51 02:02:57 - Atmospheric EMP tests 02:08:16 - Nuclear sites shut down by UAPs 02:11:55 - "AI scares me to death" 02:16:49 - CIA's battle with Air Force & NASA Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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That's code podcast at g-r-n-s.co. I want to go through the whole thing in like a linear fashion today to how this all started for you and to everything you saw along the way. But for people that aren't aware, just high level, you were an engineer with a top secret and then Q-level clearance working on special projects at Area 51 and for NASA during the height of the space race. Actually, it's for the CIA. For the CIA. I was with NASA before I was Area 51.

At NASA before you were at Area 51? Yes. Okay. So how did this all start? How did you, first of all, how did you get into NASA? What were you doing for NASA? I was on X-15 tracking station, 45 miles from Area 51. And we were tracking the X-15, X-B-7.

70 bomber, the lifting bodies that became the space shuttle, the lunar landing vehicles that landed on the moon. Oh, wow. We were doing all those projects. And I was a hypersonic flight support specialist. I had experience in the Army. I was a surface air missile guy in the Army, Intel before that. And I had experience tracking high-speed vehicles. And they brought me to NASA to Tractor X-15, which was a Model 7 aircraft.

The X-15 is what it was called. Yes. And you were doing tests with the lunar module for Apollo 11? Yeah, we got, we got, I got to do the Apollo 1 capsule. Actually, this is actually, I left NASA. I was at the flight dynamics laboratory for the CIA. We were getting their hand on a big 21 that was going to fly to Area 51 and we'd build a black box so that we could evaluate it. So they sent me to the Flight Dynamics Laboratory at Wright Patterson to develop the black box,

you might say, for the testing of the migs. And they were testing the Apollo 1 space capsule in the laboratory that I was in. And they had it, for example, they had on doing vibration tests. They had on a vibratorage. It had vibrating the deaconers out of it 24 hours a day. Then they had a big old mercury oven that they'd put it in and varied the temperatures. they could run up to 5,000 degrees and back down. So they evaluate the capsule itself,

see if it could withstand, vibration and the heat, that sort of thing. And that's the same one that ended up burning up on the cave and killing three of the astronauts. Is that the one with Gus Grissom? Yes. Oh, wow. But they were testing it there at Wright Patterson while I was there for another purpose.

Yeah, what was the story on how that fire started again? It's oxygen. They're using pure oxygen and a spark united it. That's all it took. Yeah, one of the crazy things, I actually had Charlie Duke on the podcast a couple months ago, and I was asking them all about the radiation stuff, you know, because that's one of the big questions now with getting back to the moon outside of, like, Earth orbit, is going through the Van Allen belts or whatever. And I was asking him, I was like, what kind of testing did you have to do? Like, how much protection did you guys have? And he's like, we never really talked about it. Mm-hmm. You know, that's like one of the big things that the lunar, the moon conspiracy people like to poo-poo it because of the radiation belts, you know.

Well, we went through some of that even there in Nevada. I was not participant through this, but we actually developed a nuclear-powered bomber. And, yeah, and, you know, the shielding for the pilot was prohibitive. And then when we built the A-12, which I was part of, we were doing stealth. It was our first stealth plane. And we were experimenting with the whole kind of procedure to confuse the enemy radar. And we tried ion guns.

And for them, you had to have shielding for the pilot. And even though they would have worked. Ion guns? Yeah, we had an A-12 plane. This is the A-12 for the listeners, don't know. That was the CIA version that later became the SR-71. Oh, the Blackbird, okay. Yeah, the Blackbird.

but we used an iron gun we tried all sorts of things as we were developing stealth on it but the weight of the protection for the pilot made it ineffective because weight was our biggest enemy and what did they use lead

would they have to use yeah it was lead so so we so it did not work that did not work out yeah that's very interesting you know how those astronauts didn't really have to train much for that kind of stuff you know because that's the from

What I understand is those Van Allen radiation belts are extremely dangerous because all that radiation. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Okay. So from the point you were doing that work at NASA and then you went to Wright Patterson, you're doing some testing there. What specifically were you doing at Wright Pat again? CIA Special Projects. C.I. Special Project. How much of the stuff that you did was like, you can't, you still have to keep locked in your mind and you can't talk about? Like, how much can you talk about? Almost all of it's declassified.

Almost all of it's declassified. In 2013, well, actually, 2009, the CIA flew me and some of the pilots back to Langley. And that's when they declassified. We could tell our wives where we had worked and what we did back in the 1960s. That's where my wife even learned about Eric Fitzhwin. I'd generally plain Monday morning, disappear, and come home Friday night. She had no idea. She had no clue.

No clue. Where were you flying from? Las Vegas. Las Vegas. Is this when Obama came out and said? that area 51 was real? Was that 2009? When it was to classify?

I don't know. I don't remember. Steve Obama. It probably was because that's when they, they brought us back to Langley and brought the wives with us and it was a big deal. And we got to meet to the directors

and all that sort of thing. And then I continue to go back to Langley up into COVID for a different purpose, more oral history. I love the CIA pin you have there, by the way. Yeah, not a lot of people recognize that.

Well, you came in wearing the hat. Yeah. They keep me supplied with goodish like that. I come back about every three months. Well, we would have reunions in Las Vegas, the guys that worked out every fifth one. I was the president of association. See, I always sent people to attend our reunions

just to listen to us war stories. That's our hours. Wow. And they'd bring the store. I actually set up to CIA store. Yep, they have a gift shop there. Gift shop. Yep.

Yep. Everybody would be wearing caps like I'm wearing. Okay, so Obama's first public acknowledgement of Area 51 wasn't until December 2013. That was when the, that was the official declassification. Oh, the official one. Okay. So they brought you in before that. Yeah, brought, well, what they're doing is dedicating the plane.

They put one of the planes up on a pedestal. CIA headquarters. Yeah. And that was the event that's when Michael Hayden was director and they brought us back for the dedication of the plane. Oh. So this was planned all this. So when Obama said this in 2013, it was prepped. Yes. You guys had been working behind the scenes to get all this information to them. I'll give you a story. We we turned the CIA turned over airfield one. We've been operating for over 20 years, no one knew about it. In 1979, we turned it over to the Air Force. And we stored all the records we had at CIA

at Norton Air Force Base. And 25, 30 years later, when CIA got ready to start to classify this stuff, Norton had lost all the records. So they contacted the historians call me, and they said, we've got a problem.

We don't know what the hell you guys did. So what we did is, they encouraged me to create a website, which we did. We had all their pilots, all our engineers, contractors, everyone write up stories, their bios,

we call them, of what they did at every 51. And that's how the CIA started reconstructing what we did out there. Because back then it was departmentalized that we didn't talk to each other. It was just that classified. So,

and then the CIA would have a document. They, you know, they got a lot of documents. that generated there at Langley, but they wouldn't know what it meant. It would be a project, stamped with a project name or something, they wouldn't know what the project was. So the fact that to me, I put it on the website

and draw comments from people that worked on that particular project. And that's how the SCA would learn what that project was all about. So walk me through the process of how you got recruited to go to Area 51. And I was quite an interesting, my route to Eric Fifth one is different than anyone else. I was in the Army at Fort Bliss, Texas. I'd been just about every missile school and radar school they had. And I did over two and a half years of nothing but school, we're going to college and night, and going to school during the day, one missile at each another.

And had gained a reputation from myself because we're shooting hundreds of those things out at White Sands. Shooting hundreds of missiles. missiles. Yeah, the air defense missiles. They started out with Nike A. Axe, Nike Hercules, and then with a halt missile. What year are we talking here? We're talking about 59, 60, 1960.

Okay. And in 1960, they were getting ready to build the A12 spy plane out of Air Force to fly at Area 51. And they discovered in Turkey that the picture of the reflections out of the Soviet Union that they had a new radar called the Tal King. and they need to know if this tall king radar would be able to track this new plane that they were getting ready to build the blackbirds. And this was in 1960 before the Cuban Missile Crisis. The Russians had already moved into Cuba. They had moved in all sorts of missiles and what have you. They moved in a Tall King radar, which made the CIA very happy.

Talking radar? Tall King. Tall King. Yeah, Tall King. So they'd moved one into Cuba, which it made a lot easier for them to. to probe you see what he could do. So we, during Project Palladium, was the project name of it.

Project Palladium. They were flying a ghost plane, C-97, loaded with electronics, and they'd fly into Cuba and you get that plane to turn on its radar. I mean, the sobe's turned on the radar. So I got the project. Of a remote-controlled plane.

No, no. This was C-97. It's loaded with the... I got to fly on two of the missions. Because my reputation in the Army with missiles and radar, they recruited me to help evaluate the talking radar. Whoa, look at that thing. Yeah, that's what we flew.

That's the electronics. So we flew out of Biggs Air Force Base next door to Fort Bliss, Robespation. And then Scroft plane, we had CIA people in the NSA, and you don't know who all was in there, but they're trying to type of people. But we flew towards Cuba, made them turn on that radar.

They shared the death of us, Cubans were, and the Russians were. Once they turned it on, then we started probing it, spoofing it with all type of signals, making the thing that was coming, going, 10 planes, one plane, whatever we wanted.

But the object was, off the coast of Cuba, we had a submarine that were leaving, a bunch of balloons with all different size and shaped spears on it into the air. And what the object was to see what was the smallest spear, that radar would be able to detect. That's what we would see the sensitivity of it. So that's what we were collecting the data, but actually the submarine and the balloons was what the target was.

Meanwhile, they would launch the Mi-15s in Get Atchrist out of Homestead Air Force Base here in Florida, They launched the F-100s to get between the Migs and us, and we would get what we wanted and hauled back to Fort Bliss and the Biggered Air Force Base. Oh, wow. Anyway, that's how I got involved with the CIA. That's my first encounter while it was in the Army. Okay. Long story short, I stayed in the Army.

I ended up deploying the first hot combat missile unit ever deployed. when they're putting up the Iron Curtain. And they sent one battalion to Key West Florida because the missile crisis was heating up. And they sent my battalion to Germany, West Germany on the Czech border to monitor the Soviets kind of crossed the Czech border. Oh, wow.

So anyway, while I was there, the CIA showed up at my door, they needed me again. Yeah. And I ended up, I only stayed 18 months in Germany, when I was supposed to say 36 months, they had my family with me. And I ended back up and ended up back in the States.

Were you aware of the declassified project or Operation Northwoods? No. No. Did you read it after it came out? No, I'm not familiar that way. So Operation Northwoods, I believe, included in that was, and I believe this was under Helms, if I remember correctly, Richard Helms,

one of the things in that project was a plan to fly a remote-controlled airplane over Cuba. So Cuba would shoot them out of the sky and we would have a pretext to invade Cuba. And also in there was this crazy thing that I only learned about recently, which was to use laser beams or some sort of like projection technology to project like a giant 3D Jesus Christ over queue over Havana to tell them to rebel against their government. I hadn't heard about that. Have you heard of that? No. It was Limnitzer. He was a general. He was not the head of the CIA. Helms was the head of the CIA there. Okay. But okay, so you're saying Lemitzer was, he developed it. He developed that specific project.

Hmm. Or that was mongoose. Yeah, I'm familiar. Yeah, I'm familiar with the Venetzer, the general. Right. Okay, there you go. If you go down, it says Northwoods. Yeah, look up the CIA, the CIA Jesus over Havana thing.

That one's crazy. Okay, I'm well familiar with the operation, Mungoos. Okay. Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. Mongoose is different, right? Mongous is. Yeah, that was the Bay of Pigs. That was the Bay of Pigs, right, exactly.

But Northwoods was wild. Like Northwoods was very like very sinister type of project I don't doubt it. Deceptive, you know, like very deceptive and using technology to project fake things in the sky like a Jesus type thing that would make sounds and stuff.

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target list. A resilient SOB. Yeah, we had the acoustic cat. You've probably heard that story. Oh, and see, I was one spy on the Cubans. So they rigged his cat with a, they put an antennae on his tail and implanted the receiver and trained him where he would go close to some guys talking in the park and all we monitor their conversations.

They worked on his cat and got him all ready. turning loose, a taxi cat run over him and killed him. That's one of our famous, that's in our little list of skeletons that, that's why I know. Well, you know, I'm sure you're familiar with our mutual friend, Annie Jacobson, did a whole book on the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, DARPA, who worked on spy birds, like birds that are remote control that are designed to spy and listen to stuff.

Well, I was there, if it's one in 1958, we did Project Alkaline. It was actually a bird. It was powered by a chainsaw motor. Whoa. And it could fly a thousand miles, taking photographs, and uploading up to a U-2 plane or a satellite. Chainsaw motor? Change saw motor, it looked just like a bird.

Project Alkaline. Wow. Look it up. That's bonkers. Project Alkaline. Yeah. That's that's 1968. Yeah.

So what drives me crazy, what keeps me up at night, is reading that kind of stuff and imagining what they're doing in 2026. You can only imagine. Because we didn't have computers in. Right. Exactly. Because, you know, I went through a transition. while as NASA, we started transitioning from electron tubes to transistors and converting to the metric system.

Everything was changing at the time. We just getting into, well, Chuck Gayer had been not long since he broke the sound barrier. We were getting into Mark 3 flight, which is a totally new ball game. We had to invent everything. The plane you get up to 2,200 degrees. The fuel thing could get up to 600 degrees. windshield 600. So everything had to be invented.

And we're using titanium for the first time. Right. And another interesting thing about that, our titanium was processed where I live now in Henderson, Nevada. And pretty inferior with having a lot of problems with it. So we end up getting our titanium

to build the blackbirds out of Russia through a third party. So we built the spy planes to spinal Russia using Russian titanium. That's hilarious. Yeah. Okay, so back to Area 51. So how did you actually get, what was the process like when they actually recruited

you? Did they have to interview you? Was there any specific, like what were the specifics about you while they picked you? Okay. While I was at NASA, they had what they called seven sisters. That was six air defense radar sites in the region and my site only 45 miles away. Every time the fluid plane out of Area 51, of course, the top secret, the FAA would notify the airport, regional airports.

There's going to be something flying today. Don't say anything. Air Defense Command was notified the seven sisters. We're going to have something flying today. Monitor, but don't say anything. You know, we've flying at Mark III, it was 2,200 miles an hour, so we could cover most of the United States in two or three hours. Sure.

So NORAD controlled our flights. There's no flight plan or anything. Norad tracked over and then notified the sector that we fly into, we got a top secret plane flying into your sector. Monaster's don't say anything. And we might even fly all the way to Florida and back. And just NORAD is notifying everybody, you know, keep it quiet for this top secret.

How hot? What's the altitude? 17 miles, 90,000. 80. 80. Mostly we cruise above 80,000. We could go to 90. And what altitude do commercial planes fly at typically?

About 35 to 40, 30 to 40. So even when we started flying the U2, it was 13 miles up. Right. And at that time, nothing flew above 35,000. So when we started ordering components for the U2 and the 812, with ordering out temperatures for 100,000 feet, the course of the vendors said, what in the world you need that for?

You know, that sort of thing. So how many of you were brought out to Area 51 and what year was that? I went out and actually in 68. 58. 68. 68 off the NASA. The reason that brought me out,

okay, back to seven sisters, you know, we were tracking it. As they were developing the A12 through Mach 1, mock two, mark three, was doing this. They need to certify the speed. Well, my radar site was the only one, been tracking the edge 15,

we had a philosophy recorder. Most radar sites don't have this. So they would contact me. I had a clearance. Most of the guys didn't on NASA, you know, he didn't need clearance. I still had my clearance and said, notify me, we need you to track this plane today.

I wasn't really the radar operator. I was above that, but anyway, I would go in and operate it because they had a clearance. Oh, shut the plane. door. No one come in. They couldn't even let a radar operator in there. No, no. Just because nobody knew about that plane? No one knew. And we weren't told always that we're going to have something flying today. And they didn't tell where it's, of course, we knew,

45 miles away. We were tracking that thing all the time. Skin track. We could skin track it for a few miles, but we didn't have the beacon code so we couldn't track it in longer distance. But we always watching for it under spare time. Because before they, 12 would take off on a sortie, the chase planes, F-101s would take off first, the weather flights and ahead of it. So we would be watching for them and it's about this. Oh, that fast dude, you don't take off any minute now. We'd be like, and we're tracking for a few seconds and he'd be gone, you know. Right. Now, is it true? We talked about this briefly before we started, but Annie Jacobson said in her book, during the first jet propelled airplanes that were tested off

of Groom Lake, the CIA pilots would bring monkey masks into their plane. And in case, and the reason she explained this to me is because if they come into visual distance with the commercial airplane, they would wear the monkey mask. So the person that saw it wouldn't be able to rationalize it or explain it to anybody when they're at the bar and they think they're crazy. Yeah, actually this was that, actually Edwards. Oh, Edwards. Yeah, Edward or a more accurate, I think it's called before Edwards.

And actually it was for even other Air Force pilots. They'd see a plane with no propeller on it. Right. And what the world is that? Even Air Force pilots, yeah. Even the Air Force. So some guy had found down in San Diego, or close to Disneyland. Anyway, he had found a place that sold monkey suits.

Just out of a joke, it was a joke. But they decided to wear those. and they wore them and guys to see them and they go back. I just saw a monkey flying a plane with no propeller and then laugh him out of the place, you know. So they just did this for fun? This wasn't like part of the... No, it was just for fun. This wasn't protocol.

Not one protocol. Oh, interesting. Yeah, it was just someone clowning around. And he had a cigar. The first one, he had a cigar, monkey smoking a cigar. Of course, that's folk learn now down in NASA and Edwards. You know, everybody knows about it. I was a big joke back then.

So when you were at Area 51, how much time did you spend there total? I was there about, actually, Area 51, about five years. About five years, starting in 68. Yeah, they brought me out there. The reason that brought me out there is before they retired the A-12,

you know, that was our first stealth plane. We made it a stealth plane. And they need to get some radar cross-session at Mach 3. And they didn't have any operators that was qualified, nor radar out there at the time. So they actually brought

one of my Nike radar out of Fort Bliss, Texas that I had much schooled on and used out at White Sands, whatever, out to every 51, and they brought me out right as the tail end of OxyCard to get a Mach 3 radar cross-saging track

of the A-12. Because they were becoming so fast that if you didn't pick it up, on the horizon at 2,200 mile an hour, radar can never catch it. You know, you couldn't physically move your radar. Whoa. So you had someone that was qualified for high speed tracking, and they brought me out especially for that.

And then I stayed on for the stealth and by that time we were moving into other stealth projects. And see how he was really, really big on stealth. They fathered self. self, they weren't anyone else. And but then we were getting their hands on so big equipment that Megs and radar out of the Six Day War, Israel was catching

all this Russian equipment during the Sixth Day War. And as we were developing stealth, we needed to know what these Russians would be seeing. So we get our hands on their radar and used it at every 51 to track whatever we were tracking. To see how effective we were. That's incredible. And we were.

reverse engineered the talking radar that was in back to the Cuban flight we determined yes that radar would be able to pick up the blackbirds in time for the Russians to launch your missiles they would be able to shoot us down so we'd never flew another flight over Russia we learned that that radar could do that and that's incredible but so we so that's what that mission determined was yes, it would get us. Before that, before that time they could see us, they didn't have time to even arm the missiles or launch them. We were gone. Yeah. And they would shoot missiles at us, or not even if it would Vietnam, and they would actually catch up occasionally with the plane,

and they had a proximity fuse on them, and they detonate, and we outrun the explosion. It'd be behind us, and it couldn't catch us. In the blackbirds? No blackbirds has ever hit. We had one blackbird hit by missile. That was Dennis Sullivan, CIA pilot. And he didn't even know he'd been hit to. He landed at Credina. Whoa.

And they found a piece of metal in his wing that lodging in the wing. A little piece of shrapnel. A little piece of shrapnel. Wow. That's the closest we ever came, getting shot down. That's bonkers. We outrun them. Yeah, that was the thing.

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and use the code D-JP-P-22. What other kind of crazy stuff did you test there? Or did you do radar testing with? We did a lot of proof of concept. We actually became a laboratory. When the, you know, C-A was there for 20 years. When we had every radar known the man, just about. and the people

all quite their qualifications always had different qualifications that they recruited for out there and the so we stopped flying planes when the A12 moved out in June of 1968 we retired the blackbirds

and the SR 701 took over the Air Force did at build Air Force base and they were never in every 51 anyway we were still there but we had all this equitably What we were doing, you know, we're still doing the Soviet migs. We're getting different Soviet equipment in there. We tear it down, see how they built it, put it back again,

and then we flying it. And they're having doughnut, which was the Meg 21. I get a little background on that. Yeah. We went out of the Korean War shooting guns in the Vietnam War shooting missiles and sent the planes over there with no guns, F-4s, whatever.

And the nine to one kill ratio was nine to one against us. They were whacking us out of the sky. In Vietnam. And the Russians that came out with this new Meg 21, mystery plane. And we thought it was that plane. And but desperately trying to get their hands on one. And the Iraqi defected with a brand new Meg 21 to Israel.

And then Israel loaned it to us. and that was have doughnuts. And so the Air Force brought in, or the Navy did first. They brought in, flew against it, everything they had in their arsenal. On the first tribe, we got a 100% kill against the Navy, everything they had. With the MIG. With the MIG. Whoa.

The Air Force came in, same thing, 100% kill. Is this it? Yeah, that's it. within two months, the Navy realized what the problem was. It wasn't the plane. Our pilots didn't know how to fight against it. We were sending our pilots into Vietnam with no training against the MiGs.

And we realized they'd take the PILS of the pilots 10 missions in Vietnam before they'd learn enough that they might survive the war. So we decided let's give them those 10 missions in the United States. in Nevada. So the Navy within two months, or started Top Gun School. And we got, we had, we got our hands on some eggs.

And then the Air Force started exercise red flag. And we started training our pilots before we sent them to Vietnam. Once we did that, we totally turned the kill ratio around since then. And then we started getting the squadron of Megs at Tonopoldest Ranger in Nevada, just offside, just off of Area 51. Right. And we'd flying them against our pilots out at Nellus, on the Nellus Gurnary Grange.

Give them experience against the migs. Our pilots flying the migs actually flew, we flew them like Russians, these Russian technique. We sent our pilots to different countries that was flying the Soviet Migs and been trained by the Soviets. And they flew with these guys, like Samoa,

was one place we went. So we learned the Russian techniques. Once they came back, That's how we flew. They flew the Russian National Anthem before we left where they took off. So they're thinking, you're Russian today, you're Russian today. Whoa.

And they flew like Russians to give our guys the real experience out on the range of real Russian techniques. And once we started that, that was the Red Eagles, we call them. And once, but since we, actually did the Red Eagles, we've lost only one plane in surface to air, air-to-air combat since Vietnam, and that was during Desert Storm. We had a mid-F-Borxbat,

Michigan-25 Foxbat shooting that one for LF-18s. But we quit losing plane. So it was not the equipment, it was the flyers. The training. The training. Did you guys ever recruit any Russians that were trained to fly these things or any Russian pilots? Do you guys ever getting those?

No, no. No, we used the Israeli. Israeli. Yeah. So the Israelis knew. how they were defectors they were the first one to get their hands on the planes and and equipment and then they give it to us and uh i got to tell you funny story though please the mid-21 you shortly tore it down see how they built it put it back together and

move through it you know we had to have it back to um Israel in 30 days or they wanted to use it for some kind of celebration or whatever but we wanted to evaluate the engine on it first and we had it tied down and out of every 51, you know, was right off the atomic bomb testing range. So we were on our security badges, we wore dose signatures and film badges and everything for radiation. And we're getting ready to test this plane. And someone said, you know, we better gather up the film badges.

So I'll probably get one circled into the engine. Film badges. Yeah. Our security badges with all the film stuff on it. Yeah. You know, all kind of check on them. We gather them all about 25 of them. And I always like to say we gave him Gomer Powell.

Anyway, we shouldn't crack that engine up, and it's just a scream in that old plane sitting there tugging. And he gets right in front of you. Golly, he sucked every one of our badges through the engine. Every one of them. And we had to have that thing back to Israel. And fortunately, some of the right, Pat Whitney guys, inching guys, based out of Florida here.

Right, Patterson. Yeah. no no um pat would pratt whitney pratt whitney yeah they built the engines for the all the blackbirds okay and the navy and they were based a stage year sort of anyway they some of their guys were still out of the area from the blackbirds and they tore the plane down and buffed out all the dings and stuff no way they would get it back to Israel still flying that's insane that's one we call them OS moments. Wow.

We had a lot of those. So, obviously, this is the late 60s, early 70s, when you guys are doing this. And this is, was the lure of Area 51 in the air yet after Roswell happened and the whole? Absolutely not. No one knew about it. So nobody knew what Area 51 was and it was associated with UFOs. Everyone knew it was out there. You know, no secret.

They just didn't know who was out there. Supposedly, we were flying the YouTube to start with, and it had NASA stickers on it, decals. Supposedly, it was the NASA High Altitude Research Project. We were next door to atomic bomb testing. Their base camp supplied all of our logistics, our film badges. We use the same film badges they use on the atomic bomb.

range or the security badges i'm sorry yeah and and uh haircuts banking anything like that because we lived out there all week right flew out on monday morning came home friday night did you guys fly out on those janet flights no that was before janet okay that was before the janet's i was i was special i got to fly out on a queen air and we had it parked right off of the mccaren international was like a turbo prop or something yeah and it was um uh sitting in a little block building at the into the runway of Macarron Air Force International. We had a gate, but we'd come in off the street. We didn't even go onto the airport.

We'd go through that gate, open, go into the building, open the doors, push our plane out, hop in it and take off without a word. Wow. But most of our guys threw out our Nellis Air Force Base, and they were in the most classified area of the base, the F-11 was the thing back then. It's a bomber.

Okay. And we flew out of that area. And it was funny, you know, we all, more civilian clothes. We carried briefcases in those days. We carried our pockets full of pins and slide rules and that kind of stuff. And we'd go on the base, and, of course, we didn't exist. I mean, no one saw us, you know. Right.

We'd go on the base, and we'd go into the hangar there, they had a Coke machine. And we might go in there, grab a Coke or something to be some air. there and we'd walk in, they'd almost knocked the door there and getting out. I don't know what they'd been told about us, but they've been, because we didn't, we did not exist anywhere. Wow. Were there any areas there, like any big hangers or buildings that you never got to go into or look at or? There, uh, I was able to, basically, later on no. Originally, when the arch, when it was just the arch, arch, There's an A12 guys.

They go all over the place. But once we moved in and started bringing in the megs, then they couldn't even come in my building. And one place we couldn't go into with the CIS communication building. They had a community, there were certain areas you didn't go into. But basically, we had the run of it until later.

And then later other projects started coming in. And like I say, this was, I don't know if I got into this now, we started doing prototypes. When we start flying, I think I stopped before we got into that. We started doing prototypes, Lockheed, Boeing, Northropos competing for a contract with the Navy or the Air Force or whomever. And they'd build their prototype up in their region

and fly it on their test ranges, which was a reason for a lot of UFO sightings in Seattle and in California with them testing a new type of plane. that no one had ever seen before. On private test ranges. Yeah. On the company's test ranges. Right.

Once you got ready to present it to whoever the customer was, that bring us to area 501. With CIA, we still had our special projects team there and all of our equipment. And we, at the time, it had become a laboratory. We had data processing systems and that sort of thing, which was unique in those days. And what it basically was,

two customers whoever's going to buy the plane or platform or where they call it and the vendor and we were there in the middle says show us what you got and we had the men and the equipment to put it through all the paces and see if it could do what the what north of or whoever you were like the inspectors we were the inspectors we proved whether it worked or not wow and that's still one of the biggest functions out there you know we we quit flying planes we we the A12. So who were like the biggest contractors that were out there? Because basically Area 51 is all run by contrast. I think EG and G and G and G. EG had the special projects and we were embedded in EC&G, special projects. Okay. The CIA people were. And the Lockheed at that time was the prime

contractor. It was building the planes at the time. But you had Magnavox. You had some Sylvania, all your TV companies were into electronics at that time. You'd have Texas instruments building all these components. And so you had people coming out to Area 51 from the contractors. And they had to, of course, they were cleared to be out there. And, you know, they might be out there one day or a week. They didn't stay out there. Right.

And the people like that could not live in state of Nevada. The only one that could live in Nevada was the CIA, people and support like the cooks and that you know that sort of thing and and and and everyone else had the commute out of state because at that time when they did the youtube there wasn't but two hundred and sixty three thousand people in the whole state wow and they didn't want a bunch of strangers showing up and who's that you know so everybody commuted out of uh california out of burbank and and march Air Force Base and then she commuted up on Monday morning, go home on Friday night. But we were able to live in Vegas because we were different. You had a different level clearance. Yeah, and we did not

interact with each other. The pilots and stuff couldn't come in my building. Oh, really? Oh, they couldn't. They kept it very stove piped. Yeah, they didn't have a need to know. Even within my group, as we grew and got more projects, you know, customers, there's 23 of us. And we worked together and we played together. We all had cruisers on Lake Mead. On weekends, our families played together. And we worked. You guys all stayed in your own little bubble.

We didn't reach out. We didn't trust anyone else. Right. It was that sensitive. And, but we'd get up to work. Maybe we'd have different customers. We'd be different projects. And you didn't ask your buddy there, hey, who are you doing that for?

How'd that work or what is it? You'd help him, he'd say, hey, hey, Joe, I need a hand. And you go give them a hand, but you didn't ask any questions. Right. And I got to think about this while back, you know, I've known these guys for all these years. None of us knew each other's background. Even then.

We never asked. Never asked. You never asked. And I got to think about it. You know, I think I'm the only one still living to have a special project. Really? But very few of them, I could tell you what they did

before the community 51. And they didn't know what I did. Fascinating. I always wondered what it was like to be able to do stuff like that that's super compartmentalized and live with your significant other, your spouse, and not have to tell them anything. You're going back to recruitment. Mine was different because I'd been involved in stages. Yeah. So I was cleared and they knew me. So that wasn't a big deal. You're already in the system. In the system. But like your pilots, when they're seeking pilots for the CIA, They went to the Air Force, they went to the top pilots. So they'd go through their pilots,

and they'd send them back to Langley, and they might meet in some motel or rest or something, and they had no idea who was interviewed them, and they'd give them tests. They'd go through multiple tests and stuff, and they'd progress, and they'd send them back, and if they passed, they'd bring them back again. And these guys, they thought that,

both of them thought they'd been questions to become astronauts. they had no idea. Wow. And so when they finally accepted guy, and we had 11 of them that we accepted, only one out of four qualified in our qualifications,

even though the Air Force's top people. And the way they tell the guy, I said, okay, we want to offer you a job. They said, what is it? I can't tell you. Where is it? Well, all we tell you, it's West Mississippi. And you won't be able to take your family.

Los Vegas without your family. No way, Jose, you know. Wow. And that stopped pretty soon because the wife's history when they found it to her husband. No way. But anyway, the guys did not know what they're going to be flying

until they arrived out at Area 51. They opened up the hangar doors. Here's what you're going to be flying. And we had morning guide with the A-12 in particular turned around. I don't know if fly that thing. He quit. He quit?

Yeah, and went back in the airport. What we did is how we got them, they had the sheep dip out of, we called sheep dipping, out of the Air Force into the CIA. Back then, what they did is resign their commission. They went on contract with the CIA. Most of those were contract.

A lot of people don't realize there's about 40 to 60% of your intelligence agencies are military. And they convert over to civilian status while at the agency. And then you go back in the uniform. That's the same way that our guys. Yep.

And so they shipped up when they became civilians. The reason for that, when we started flying the U2 and 812, flying over enemy territory, if they got shot down and used any uniform as an act of war. So it had to be civilians. So every 51 was a civilian facility. It was not military at all.

We had military, we had Air Force guys there. Because the CIA didn't know how to run an air base, and that's what it was. We call it a facility, but it's air base. So we brought in the Air Force squadron. They worked for the CIA. They were not allowed to report up the chain of command.

I don't care, General O'May, no one could ask them what they're doing or where they're working. They reported only to an Air Force officer that was attached to Dick Bissell at CIA headquarters. Right. Him only. They were not allowed to answer to anybody else. No bad. Had of the Joint Chiefs. Nobody.

Nobody. They know anyone could touch them. How much did the president know about this stuff, do you think? Very little. And for good reason. Plausible, then, not... Plausible than I bill. Yeah, easy for you to say.

Yeah, it's easy for you to say. I've had a jaw broken four places. I had a lot of hard time talking. Wow. So the president doesn't know much? No, and he doesn't want to know much. Right. Only what he needs to.

Congress doesn't need. to know. I'll tell you how, let's talk about secrecy a little bit. When Truman, Harry Truman became president, Roosevelt died, he did not know we had the atomic bomb. Wow. The only a few people in Congress ever knew we had the U-2 plane, even though we've been flying since 1956. Right. Until Gary Powers crashed, it got shot down. in 1960. That's when it exposed the program. Of course, Russian, you had it. Right. But foreign intelligence knew more than the president knew. That's crazy. But we used civilian pilots and and we never called Air 51 of Air Base. It was a facility.

Our everyone used pseudal names. You didn't use your real name. Now my group used code name. My code name was thunder. Thunder. But the pilots all had pseudal names. that they actually use on all their paperwork, everything. And the CA got these names off of gravestones in Europe. So the politicians never used their real names. Why gravestones in Europe? I don't know, it's just, I don't know, but that's just where they got them.

That's awfully creative. There's a lot of things that, I won't say strange, but unique, like when they hired security people for out there, the CA, they went to Pennsylvania and hired 20, I hired 30 women, but 26, them came out of one little coal mining town in Pennsylvania. Now, can you imagine those guys, I mean, they're coal miners. Right.

And now the security guards. Los Vegas was run by the mob back then. Right. These guys hung out in Stardust Crisino. At one end of the bar would be our security people. At the other end was the mob. It was fun. Of course, I was general knowledge,

Back then, you know, later on, you learned all this, you know. Right. That's wild, man. That's like the Twilight Zone. Yeah. But anyway, back to recruiting the pilots. We had one in particular. He offered him the job.

He said, well, I need to check with my wife. Okay, go check with your wife. He came back, they weren't there. If he had to check her with his wife to set the top secret job, they didn't want him. Interesting. Very interesting. And a lot of your listeners are familiar with Marty Knutzen.

He flew the U-2 plane and later became ahead of NASA at Dryden. And the Marty Jun-Nuson, they brought him out for the U-2 plane. He was then to get off the bus. He said, I'm not going to fly this thing. He ended up flying it, but he did. He ended up doing it. Yeah, pull up the phone of the YouTube plane. two plane it's bonkers now i'd run fly that's there yeah well so what was the year they discontinued

the u-2 it's still flying it's still flying yeah no way it's still flying well he built the the a12 to replace it and i thought we used more drones now oh we're using well they're not they're i think we're down to just recently within the last month i think we're reduced down to three u2s three u2s but we still got them and we still need them there's certain conditions where you need them. Let's talk about the flies a little bit. The U-2 flights, there were places when the U-2 couldn't fly. So like China, so we organized a squadron of Taiwan-Ease pilots out of Kedina to fly to U-2.

We had American commander, Colonel Slater, who later became our commander out at Area 51. Yeah. But when we needed to fly into the United Territory, like China, we used Chinese pilots. When we were flying over the Soviet Union out of Turkey, well, there's times when it got really, really sensitive and the president wouldn't authorize a flight, but we really needed that flight bad. So we had recruited five, actually four,

we had five UK guys, former pilots, stationed to the CIA in Turkey. So when the president would turn down the CIA flights, they said, where are you, Brits? Some Brits. We didn't fly it anyway. Plus, the president said, I didn't fly it. Right.

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Not even jokingly or was it on your mind? Not UFOs. We were concerned about being seen. You know, we, that was a big concern because we had we had no-fly zone. called it Euletide that was large enough no-fly zone around area 51 that our planes could take off and land about anyone ever knowing it it was a big deal and that's reason like in the latest book i wrote about secret skies we was able to fly the migs there as well and no one ever know it we had a no-fly zone that we could do all kind of flying you know secret skies by td barns and um thick yeah had like to say in that But the, what was their question?

Just being aware of the lore of UFOs and flying saucers and boss well. We tried to prevent being seen. So we painted the U2 black. It was silver. And every now and then the sun we hit it, 13 miles up in the air. And then it flash and people see it. Of course, it was a UFO. So we painted it black to hopefully they wouldn't be able to see it.

and the weight of the paint, we lost 1,500 feet of altitude. Right. Just putting the paint on it. Wow. But we were very conscious of not being seen, not because of the UFO thing. Yeah.

But the only actual their force took over in 79 that people realized that the CIA had been out there for over 20 years. No one knew what we'd been doing and we're not talking. It's still classified. And that's when their imaginations run wild and they started putting the aliens out there,

the flying saucers and that sort of thing. But that's all speculation. But up until then, no one had ever associated anything with Eric 51. You guys never thought about it, never talked about it, nothing like that. No, no. And that's a good point. We still don't. You know, we flew over almost 18,000 missions

with the blackbirds. No telling how many with the U-2s. Oh, you know, all these flights. We have reunions, used to be six, seven hundred of us there. And we'd sit around after hours, drink a beer, war story. Not one time I've ever heard a pilot

talk about UFOs. Really? Never. It never entered our minds. That's wild. Because that was the time, you know, during all the nuclear testing and stuff like that, when that was ramping up

was when you hear the most reports of it. Yeah, but that wasn't, pilots. We flew all these missions. We had guys in Mirror Space Station and the ISS, Georgia Space Shuttle people. They never saw any of that. You never heard of someone out hadn't to go out and wash the windshield of a plane to get the nose prints off of it from a plane from a pilot looking for UFOs. It never entered our minds. We saw stuff. Yeah. But no big deal. So I'm sure you're familiar, what of the Bob Dazar story? Oh, yeah.

What did you make of that when you first heard about? Anyone who's ever been out of Area 51 and see through it immediately. Really? Oh, everything. Why? Every aspect of it is. There's no way he could have been out there. No one ever went on Area 51 that they wasn't cleared, first of all,

and their name wasn't record. It just didn't happen. To get into Area 51, I don't care, even the president, he has to be vetted. We have colonels and stuff that would need to come out. It really needs to come out there. But they would have a very, very hard time. Getting out, getting clearance to go out there,

because they didn't have a need to know. Right. I heard Richard Helms went out there once. And had like a big seafood party or something. Yeah. Of course, Dick Bissell came out there all the time. Bissell, right, yeah. I worked with Dick Bissell.

But when Helen, his administrative assistant, I guess she'd call her, she and I remained close friends for years and years, that's or that. But she was the first woman to ever spend the night at Air 51. Oh, wow. But she wrote a lot of the history, declassified history, about the projects, too, Helen did. So I think Bob said that he was there in 88 and 89, and he said he was there during December. So he said he was interviewed in October of 88, and he worked all. of December of 88.

I know all the security guards. There's a few, well, I don't know, maybe one or two left now, but I've known all the years. You asked them? Did you ask him? Oh, yeah. Yeah, we talked about it. Oh, really? Yeah, we talked about it.

Because no one came out there that didn't go through security. I don't know why they could tell. It puts me, I got a relative to work out there after me. and she was in security. And she run the matter. You had to be on a manifest. I can tell you, on the Shannon flights.

First of all, you've got to be on a manifest, ever get on the plane. In other words, you're already approved. And then you got to have the right badges. If you're not on that manifest, you don't get on there.

I don't care who you are. And she said that he was never on a manifest. Yeah. And the guards, too. I'll give you a example. We had a lot of transit traffic out of area 51.

People never knew they was there. One night, I was a fellow name I called Calvin Dawson. I was working on a radar late in the evening after sundown. And the C-130 landed. And usually they would land and they would come up to security and security come out and check them

before they'd get off the plane. You know, they had to be, their badges checked and all it. And the manifest. Well, this plane, instead of going up for security, The security circled and went out onto the lake bed out behind our radar sites. And we're standing in the world's going on.

And security came out there to meet it. And we're watching all this was very unusual. And pretty soon we saw the guys marched right by the information. It was Chinese. They had brought a squadron Chinese out there. They did not know that area 51. They never knew.

But they stayed there for three months. What we've done, we've trained them to drop sensors out of C-130s over China. And they were staying at every 501 and using our dry leg bed for their training. No way. And they never knew that at area 51. But that's why.

That was the black batch. You can look them up, black bats. Black batch. That's declassified. So I think Bob's story, he says that he was going to a place called Site 4. Have you ever heard of that place? Oh, yeah. So Site 4 is real.

Been there many times. Yeah, we had a microwave. It's another little dry lake bed a little bit south of us. Okay. But site four was actually another side. We had a side four, but it was north of us,

and that's where we had all the Soviet radar. We moved the radar from Slater Lake. We had a little spring right off of Groom Lake. And a few trees and shrubs. We had planted all over Soviet radar there, And as we increased, we moved them to site four. That became, and we had an airstrip there. That's one of our remote sites.

But that was Soviet radar was there. Okay. So there was two Sipfors? Papu's was never siphore. Oh. Bob Lissar story is false. So there's no underground base hidden in a mountain? Absolutely nothing.

That is just a bare mountain with a microwave tower on top of it, little dry legbed. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, his story was funny from day one. Because, you know, even Annie talks about some of like the super secret tunnel stuff that was going on. There wasn't any. There was no tunnel, like the tunnel?

Absolutely none. Annie had a lot of problems in her book. Did she really? But this way, she became persona non grata with anyone that ever worked at Eric 51. Did she really? Absolutely. Wow. all the little middits and stuff

I would assume okay so if you are her and you're kicking all these hornets nests that are close to the top most top secret things in America and talking to all these retired generals and Air Force people and CIA people after she publishes that book I would imagine

they would make her persona non grata because they wouldn't be happy about some of that information that came out Actually, there's nothing declassified in her book. Most of it's just unreal. There's nothing declassified. No. Hmm.

I mean, everything is declassified. Everything is declassified. Right, right, right, right. But she said in my living room, base commander sitting there, she interviewed him. All the people, most of the people that worked out there, because I was the president of the organization, she did most of her interviews in my living room. And we gave her access to the top people. I mean, every story.

Yeah. We brought her back, I brought her back to Langley and took her through CIA headquarters. We gave her access to everything. And then what she did is mixed the atomic bomb range with Area 51. All that story is about atomic bombs and stuff. That's D-O-E.

It was AEC back then. We were D-O-D. and CIA. Two different ballgame. So DOE was not involved in Area 51 at all? DOD was. But what about the Department of Energy? No? No, absolutely none. Never allowed

on the place. And he started interviewing all these jobs that worked for the atomic atomic bomb site. Right. Associated it with Area 51, but apples and oranges. Had nothing to do it. Interesting. Those guys were never at Area 51.

That's got to be a very hard job. to do as a journalist is to try to unravel the secrets of the American Empire. Not really. She was looking for what she put in it. Well, I'll give you an example. We had a, he was, I think 90 year old engineer out at the atomic bomb range. She kept interviewing him and said, give me something juicy, give me something juicy. And he made up a story and she put in her book. And you know Bill there with ABC Nightline? Her interview with ABC Nightline?

Who's interview? Bill, L.I. I'm not familiar now. Anyway, he was ABC Nightline in New York. He was in my living room, and Annie Jacobs was there. He was asking you a questioner about that. Why did you put all this in your book? And she said, I'm a journalist.

And he said it to me. I'm allowed to say it. I'm allowed to use it. Right. And he told her, he, so. He told her what? That's what she told ABC Nightline. Because I'm a journalist, because he said it, I could use it.

It didn't have to be true. Interesting. But a big part of that, when she started mentioning up the atomic energy commission stuff, because she actually was, I shouldn't say too much here, but she was looking for dirt. Did you, what did you think about this? But it sold her book. You got to give her credit.

She's number four on the best seller of this. Mm-hmm. Because that's the kind of stuff that sells. Well, what did you think about her story of the Roswell crash when she says that she spoke to an EG-NG engineer named Alfred O'Donnell? He was pseudonymous in the book and she recently released his. I see, I'm talking about. That's who you're talking about. Yeah.

I know him well. He told me later, he says, she just kept press for something choosing. I finally just told her a wild story. he used it. Really? Yeah. He's still alive? No.

Yeah, I need to hold down him at well. So his story was that he told her was that the crash at Roswell that they found the alien bodies were basically children that had had surgery done to them to make them look more like aliens. And it was the Mengelea Nazi, the Megalah dude who did it. And she asked this EG engineer, why wouldn't the U.S. government let this out? because this would make the Soviet Union Soviet Union look terrible. And his answer to her was because we were doing the same things.

Yeah, he told her the same thing that we were doing it every 51. That's what got us mad at her. And she accused us. And while I got right in her face, I said, you're accusing me and my relative of this very thing. I said, you know better.

And she said, well, he told me that. Because he said it, I can use it. Well, why would he tell her that? if he knows she's running a book. Because she kept bugging him. He told me, he said, she just kept bugging, give me something juicy. So he gave her something juicy.

He was never there. Eric Fitz 1. He was a Tomic Energy guy. That seems like a crazy thing to tell someone writing a book. You know, why would you, you know, you know, if she believes you, I mean, I'm sure he could tell that he believed her. Like, was there laughing afterwards? Oh, yeah.

Yeah, I'm sure. But because he said it. Very odd. And that's what really got us, really, really, they're really angry. That refuse us to doing that sort of thing. I mean, that was the furthest thing away from what we were done, you know. And says the guy with the CIA badge on his jacket.

Yeah, according, anytime I dispute any of this, I'm one of those paid guys, you know. Aha. Yeah, that's everybody nowadays. Oh, yeah. Anyone who says something you disagree with online, they're automatically paid for it. Oh, yeah.

By a foreign intelligence agency. But, you know, that was nothing but, balloons. There was nothing there. You think Roswell was balloons? Yeah. What do you think about the things that the pilots are reporting now? Or they had been reporting since 2014,

I believe it was, when the thing came out, with Ryan Graves and Commander Fravor who were seeing these things, these Tick-Tac things. I think Ryan Graves specifically described an object that was a cube with a sphere, inside of a sphere. Yeah, my... And this was right after they

upgraded the radar and their jets. Exactly. That particular radar is a new radar. And supposedly, it was even having problems of seeing flocks of birds as a bogey. So in my opinion, they were doing the same thing that we did during Project Palladium. They were spoofing that radar to see what its weak points were,

whoever they is. Because that's what we do. Every new system comes out, you evaluate it to see if anyone can, spoof it. So either we were testing a new spoofing system because, you know,

atomic warfare type stuff, either doing that or we were testing that radar system. Because you got to keep in mind that no other radar has had that problem. It's just the Princeton

and maybe one other in that test. But it's not universal. And you've got to remember the source of this. It's still. started in 2004, they did this filming. And when they got through, they put the film in a locker.

In 2007, Harry Reid, I know Harry Reid, where he's from Searchlight. For people out there, who was Harry Reid? He was a sister. Senator, okay. And he stayed forever. His land, my land and his land joined his searchlight. Had a business down there.

I knew him for years. In searchlight, we'd call him Pinky. He's a politician. Harry Reid always believed that we had alien spacecraft out of Area 51 when he became a senator. He bugged us to death wanting to come out and see it.

We got nothing here. He was a big believer in UFOs. In 2000, let's see, anyway, he got $22 million. passed through a defense bill. Yeah. Snuck it in for UFO study.

Open up that little office in the Washington, D.C. to study UFOs or UAPs. They're part of the buddy to Ralph Bigelow in Las Vegas. Right, right. Ralph Bigelow bought the Skin Walker Ranch where all the supposed cattle mutilations are going on, all that kind of stuff. Check it for a while. And then I last the herd, he's studying life at your death. Yes.

Robert Bigelow. Robert Bigelow is, yeah. So that's where $22 million went, or part of it. And it was not approved through the sin or anything. It just slipped into the bill. Interesting. But Harry Reid was a big believer in your foes. and for always.

And he, I think he's behind all this UAP stuff that's going on today. But going back to you Tic Tac, I really think that that was, because they're seeing all shapes. Yeah.

And so, that has to be electronics. We think so? Oh, yeah, we got, our capability now is, you know, I don't know firsthand, but we can generate, make the enemies see a whole battalion of tanks or of ships out on the ocean.

Like spoofing capabilities? Spoofing capabilities. We went into Vinduela. It took us, what, 48 minutes? They didn't even know was there. We went into Iran. They didn't know it was there until the bomb dropped. We got capable that you can even imagine now.

Look at what we're doing without computers. We used slide rules. now we've got AI, got computers. Right. It's just unbelievable. But what I think is, with the Tick-Tac thing,

is that it is, they were either testing that radar. Because you can't imagine all the different shapes and stuff they're seeing, you know, they're seeing all kinds of shapes and stuff. Well, that could be testing the capability of that radar. What's the sensitivity to this or that or whatever?

There was an article that came out in the war, zone and i think jeremy riss is the one who told me about this and um there was a a patent for some sort of radar spoofing thing or some sort of balloon that looked exactly like what ryan gray has described with the sphere with the cube inside of it touching all the four corners yep you know they've got nephesis now i think they call it as a spoofing technique nemesis yeah and uh right there yeah this is it this is from the war zone but like I say we played it we released all these different shapes and sizes and we had the water disturbance just like to describe in the tick-tac we had the submarine we hit that it deployed out of a submarine it deployed out of a submarine with palladium one of the f 15 pilots got on radio and he said

I see the target right well we thought he'd seen the submarine we don't know what he saw right but we dove the submarine emergency dove that submarine thinking he'd seen it you oh yeah yeah yeah so we're caused disturbance so they're seeing the same thing today there's thin disturbances in the water yeah all kind of shapes and stuff yeah and even back then with it's the spoof radar and and they're still there today it's just like i i get that i agree it makes so much sense that if they had just upgraded their radars that we would be trying to test some sort of secret technology against our own our own flyers our own pilots right or our own navy to see how capable it is to see what they think about it to see how the the the radar track can track it but to me like the fact the way they

all describe those tick tax moving from like point a to point b in an instant it sounds like it's a laser pointer the way it moves so fast either that or electronic it could be you know i don't I don't think it's physical. You don't think it's physical. I don't think it's physical. You think it's some sort of a hologram or something. Yeah. Let me talk a bit about knowledge of what's going on.

Like with the U2 and the A12 pilots, we never, ever told them what their mission was, ever. All they do at some point, they just flip a switch, turn here, turn there. They never knew what their mission was. Right. Those guys, if they had done a spoofing test, They weren't told they're going to be tested. They'd be expecting it.

I wouldn't imagine. They'd be expecting it. Sure. Those pilots wouldn't be towed. No one would know until, except the few people that needed to be, need to know, but they wouldn't tell the pilots or the people on the radar. They won't surprise. They want it to be authentic.

Right. No, yeah, that makes total sense. So if that thing was a non-physical thing, like a projection, of some sort. How would it make a disturbance in the water? That could be a submarine. It could be, okay, so you think a submarine could be below it, maybe projecting it?

It could be controlled. Interesting. Because we always use submarines. That's how we got, put them out in the ocean. Right. We did that with a play him. So that would account for your submarine, your disturbances in the water,

how they got them in the air. I don't know whether you use them, physical things now are electronics because they could just well be everything's electronic. Now what about like plasma ball stuff? Is there anything that you're aware of like using plasma or anything like that? Now we used we tried using plasma as the stealth technique even on the 812s. Another story that that was project wasn't melody anyway we had a project and was using arc welder to provide the electricity for this thing. We damn there blew the barn doors off the hangar.

It exploded. That was the end of that. But we were experimenting with plasma. We would experience ion guns, everything for stealth back in the early days. Wow. Yeah, there's so many well-documented stories from folks during the 50s that were working on physicists, that were working on anti-gravity.

You have Ed Witten who is doing this. A lot of people in North Carolina who were very involved, very actively working on anti-gravity stuff, Townsend Brown, all these people, this electrogravity type stuff, anti-gravity. And then all of a sudden, it all went black. And people speculate pretty unanimously, who are into this stuff,

that this was grabbed by the private sector or intelligence and it went black to be distilled. studied not in the public. So have you ever witnessed or heard of anything like that being tested or tinkered with? I've never seen it, but I heard that Northrop had developed that they had a floating coffee table. I don't know if this is true or not. This is several years ago. But, you know, of course, that kind of stuff was going on.

And now, you know, I don't know a lot about this either, but they, You know, radar is kind of obsolete now. You use the acoustics, like the down pilots in Iran. Iran. The heart, the murmur, ghost murmur. They were trying to put these wind turbines on the Nevada test site, generate energy. And they got disapproved because the noise would interfere what was going on in area if it's one.

Oh, wow. No telling them. Yeah, we definitely have those underwater, too, right? Yeah. Like when that submarine imploded, that was looking at the Titanic, allegedly they heard it from like the other side of the earth with their underwater acoustical detection. Exactly. And I'm sure like all the stuff that we see and hear about that's happening in the skies, I imagine there's got to be way more happening beneath the ocean.

Oh, yeah. But nobody's going to be able to see that. I heard a story of, who was telling us the story of the submarine thing? Oh, who was the gentleman that was in? McGuire. Bob McGuire was just in here telling us a story about a submarine pilot or a captain of a submarine, nuclear submarine, where they had this crazy thing on their radar or on their sonar or whatever you call it on a submarine that like flew past their submarine and made a crazy sound and like the people were aware of it.

like, oh, we call that a fast walker. Those happen from time to time. And, you know, I've heard other stories from, from Navy pilots and submarine pilots or submarine captains of, like, weird anomalous objects that are, like, really big, moving really fast around their subs and stuff like that. But it's crazy because there's no camera. You can't, like, you can't get a visual on it. You just get this, like, this reading.

No killing. It would be a great place to hide secret technology. Oh, yeah. You know, if we had some sort of crazy stuff that we were working on. we would, that ocean is the perfect place to hide it. It's perfect, you know, like sound travels forever, you know, certain frequencies, you know. It'd just be perfect for anything like that. So do you believe at all that there is any sort of like UFO that is non-human?

I got no reason to believe that now. No. No. You know, I think that we had found, of course, them thought of them crashing all the time. That doesn't make sense. If they're able to get here, they wouldn't be crashing. Plus, there's never been any, as far as I know, any real crash material found that they could determine

was alien. Well, there's lots of stories of that kind of stuff. There's a lot of stories, but you know, where's the proof? And, you know, the people really don't, most people don't believe that. You got to be looking for that kind of stuff to see it. You go outside, you see, all the time,

you'll see something you can't identify. But most people think you think about it. Right. Because we've got millions of objects in orbit, you know, space junk. Mm-hmm. You know, thousands, thousands satellites, planes flying there, drones flying everywhere. So there's just flying everywhere. Do you think that, do you believe the possibility of extraterrestrial life in the universe is?

Oh, yeah, I think, yeah, elsewhere. But I would be surprised if it would be like a human. Yeah. It could be worms or, it could be. you know, whatever the habitat was. Right. Because we got sunlight, we got water. Exactly.

We have a certain kind of pressure atmosphere. Exactly. Right. But, you know, everybody visualizes the, them being human shapes and stuff. There's no reason to think that. Yeah, we evolved specifically on this planet to be adapted to these conditions.

Other water worlds, other Goldilocks planets are water worlds. Oh, I got no doubt there's life elsewhere. My thing is like, If we're looking for life in the universe, and we know that this planet is just absolutely teeming with life, and it has been for the millions and millions of years, well, wouldn't the best place to look be our neighboring planet, Mars? You know, like, wouldn't that be the most likely place? Yeah, it would. And I think that I would be surprised if they don't find some kind of sign of life. It may not, you know, may be very prehistoric or whatever.

you know, nothing like humans or anything like that. A lot more simple. Yeah. So then if that's the case, what is your view on everything that's happening in these congressional UFO hearings, Trump releasing these UFO files, most of which was already available? All this stuff. You know, in those UFO files, there was a crazy story from one of the Apollo missions. Well, it might have been Apollo 11, actually.

No, it wasn't 11. It was more, I forget what you one of us. Yeah. I think he's 11. Were they explained seeing things, weird UFOs that were not explainable? Yeah, I don't know what they're seeing. And you have all these people giving testimony in front of Congress, like military, like legit military people saying that they have seen or witnessed non-human entities,

biological entities. Yeah, I can't believe that. Why? Why they all do this? For that, because I know, you know, I worked astronauts and I fly, I've reconnoisse the crews and everything, known most of my life. And none of them have ever encountered anything like that. So people make up stories. They like 15 minutes of fame.

So part of that, some of them may believe it. But I just have a hard time, I believe in any of that. So it's almost always the same people, too. You don't have the general population. you don't have people out in the streets looking for UFOs or the media you're going crazy looking for it or anything like that. Right. Well, the mainstream media is certainly not.

It's just like, why do they waste all this time in Congress and with all these people traveling from all over the world and the country to come witness these things, going to skiffs and do this stuff? Is it all just a distraction? Is it all just theater? I think a lot of people are just, that's their thing. They're looking at the sky everywhere, wanting to see something.

So you think these people really believe it? I think they do. But most people, like I said, the people, the astronauts and the people I've worked with, that never even enters your mind. They never talk about it. Wow. It's just, in fact, they laugh about it, you know, if some even comes up. They see things, of course, we all do.

But we don't have that frame of mind that, hey, what is that? Right. So when it comes to these spoofing capabilities, like you were saying, are responsible for the Tic Tac and some of these other things that could be projections off of submarines. What are the, like the, obviously, obviously you probably aren't up to speed on all of the most current research and the most current technology. But if you were just to speculate just wildly, right, on what could be the current capabilities or limitations of stuff like that right now? It should be satellites too. It could be what? It could be satellites or submarines.

Satellites. Yeah. But yeah, we can, I don't know how far we've gone with it. I do know that we've got technology now where they can make a, I don't say camouflage, but make something disappear. You can't see it. Cloaking it? Cloaking it.

Yeah. We got cloaking capability now and that sort of thing. And no telling what all we got. But again, it's what we, the big publicity now is going to Congress and stuff. Again, it goes back like, look at who Congress people are, worked out lawyers or people who couldn't make it on the outside, they get elected. Yeah. And they're not experts on anything, but,

protecting the jobs. That's true. And look at Harry Reid. Yeah, and it does seem too like, I get the view that the people, these, a lot of these, not all of them, but a lot of these Congress people are more interested in becoming like celebrity influencers, you know,

than they are anything else and actually doing their job. The UFO community makes a big deal about having a Senate hearing. Yeah. If you look at that Senate hearing, there was four senators. four senators in that room. And they probably were UFO believers.

Right. Well, also, one of the crazy things to me is that Pedesta is one of the big people promoting this stuff. And also, why am I blanking on his name again? You know who I'm talking about, the bald guy from the NSA, who said that the NSA is not spying on Americans. James Clapper. Yeah. Oh, God. James Clapper is one of the biggest.

people behind this too, which is very, very fishy to me. So I don't know. I don't know. That's a mystery. You know, I don't deny that people see such stuff. Yeah. But you got to be, I want to see something that's, make something out of it to believe that there's, yeah, consciousness and belief certainly has a lot to do with it.

Because I look up in the sky all time, I see if I had a lot going over. or whatever. Me too. I never see the, I never see UFOs. Yeah. I don't know if I'd want to see one either. I was at a dinner here recently and this is a pretty prominent businessman and he thought I was a UFO believer for some reason. He started off his conversation. I saw four grades today. Four grays. Yeah, I saw four grays. When you realize I wasn't a UFO believer, he shut up. That's a hell of a way to start a conversation. I gotta be honest. I have a love, hate relationship with my blue jeans.

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Again, that's the perfect gene.n.yc or just Google the perfect gene and use the code Danny 15 for 15% off. ECMs and ECCMs. Can you explain what those are? Yeah, electronic countermeasures. That's what your planes use to spoof radar or hide from radar. Yeah. And ECCM is a missile we use. It's electronic counter-counter basures.

Okay. It's the means they're getting through the ECM. getting around it. And that's one of the things I did on my flight to, to Cuba, was record the ECM that the MIG-15s were using because we were just developing, getting ready to deploy the Halk missile,

and we, Raythong was designing the EC-CM up to date. You know, we have to keep up the date with the technology. And they wanted the latest ECM that the Russians were using. Now they would record that on that flight, so Raytheon should use them. for the Hulk missile that they're getting rid of deploy. Okay. But that's the ongoing thing.

You're always changing ECM and both sides. It's a cat and mouse game. Right, right. And it's very much tied to all of these things that you think could be projections or balloons or laser projections or whatever. It's all the time. Each adversary is trying to outdo the other. You'll come up with something to you

and then they'll come up something to defeat it. Yeah. Did you guys ever suspect or have any, did you ever know of any sort of like foreign folks that were in Area 51 that could have been from other countries helping the U.S., like from Russia or China or anything like that? Not really out of the area. Not helping us.

The only exception would be the Israeli colonel that had flown the Meg 15th first and brought it over. He trained our pilots. Right. But other than that, but let me talk just a little bit more on that. When we're flying against everything the Air Force had and the Navy had, I'll give you an example, the F-84s that they brought in to fly against. They use National Guard out in New Jersey.

Those pilots flew, they've told you. you're going to fly to Nellas Air Force Base, and it's the top mission, the top secret mission, you're going to be flying a foreign adversary, don't say anything. Those guys came in and they flew against our Migs at every 51. They never knew that they were at area 51. Interesting.

They thought they were at Nellis. They didn't have a need to know. So a lot of times, even out there, if you didn't have a need to know, you'd see something's fine. You didn't ask you and you didn't tell what it was. You know, it'd be, we'd be developing stealth and not so much in my day later on. And I was aware of some stuff that they were testing out there to make it more stealthy.

And people would see it out, working out there. Right. But see it. And you say, boy, I didn't see anything. Right. You didn't want to see it. Well, I'm sure you're familiar. Are you familiar with the Paul Benowitz story?

No. Can you place it? So Paul Benowitz was a UFO researcher. He was part of Mufon, which is like the mutual UFO network, like a UFO community of people. And he was, he was, I forget his profession, but he was a, he might have been like an engineer or something like that. Anyways, he was just an enthusiast, right? And he lived in New Mexico. And he was constantly.

seeing witnessing UFOs flying over the mountains and like coming down at random times or whatever and he was talking about this in his in the UFO meetings that they were doing like this mufond group would have conferences and stuff people will come up and talk and explain their experiences or whatever he was explaining this and the story goes that at the air force base right across those mountains where he lived there was a guy there named named Rick Doty, who was a counterintelligence guy with the Air Force. And he found out that Paul Benowitz was doing. His job was to do recon and see what people were seeing and try to like throw off people,

throw people off the scent of what was really happening. So he discovered Paul Benowitz, and he went and met with him. And what he did was he asked him everything he knew, trying to figure out everything he was seeing and what he believed it was. And what Rick Doty did was he convinced Paul, like I think what he was. I think what you're seeing really is alien UFOs. This is crazy. You need to really follow this threat,

trying to pull this threat and figure out what it is. Because they were concerned, the Air Force was concerned, that the Soviets were trying to infiltrate the Mufon UFO community to see what they knew because they knew that that was probably some sort of secret technology or whatever.

So they were using Paul Benowitz as like a conduit of disinformation to poison the well of the Mufon UFO community to make them think this really was extraterrestrials and not super secret advanced technology. Very possible. And it ended up driving this guy crazy. And he ended up going to like a psych ward or something.

And I think he died there. But, you know, the fact that they would go to, and I think this was in the 80s, late 70s, early 80s, maybe. And just the fact that their counterintelligence psychological, psychological. operations that they were doing was so robust back then. It makes you wonder like, what is it like now in today's day and age where information is just everywhere, constantly nonstop? You know, going back to the government releasing the UFO files? Yeah.

There's absolutely no way the government's ever going to release any classified documents. They'd be crazy too. Mm-hmm. You know, like your spoofing techniques or that you're even spoofing or any of that, because that's giving it to the enemy. Right. You just don't do that, especially a bunch of UFO people. Right.

I mean, you just don't give way secrets. And for good reason. Right. I mean, China would love it. Russia would love it. Right. Well, I mean, the story goes, most people suspect that those countries have the same kind of stuff that we have.

And you don't tell commerce. That's the worst place to the war. Right, exactly. Tell a secret. Let's pause. I got to take a P real quick. Okay. We'll be right back. I did, I deal back with the, with the DA.

They invited me there for the, give a presentation to the workforce. When they put a big logo in their, at the interest, like you got at CIA, the DA put one in. They invited me back and I gave a presentation to the workforce, me and one of the YouTube pilots. And when the director was the first one to walk across the logo and me and Tony Brabacra, the YouTube pilot, but we're the second, and our wives were the second ones to walk across the logo. A DIA? Yeah, but it's quite an honor.

Wow. And that's so, so that was when they were grilling you and trying to get all this information out of you about all your experiences, where they were gonna classify this, and you were saying this is what led you into writing their books? Yeah, I had already,

not that time, I hadn't read the books, no. Yeah, that's when we started all that, yeah. But we went doing all the workforce, telling the story. But we did that for 10 days. But the CIA sponsored it. But I've been in many, many panels and stuff at universities and stuff. Dr. Robar, he's the chief historian in the CIA.

He and I become his real personal friends. But anyway, we've appeared at universities all over the country, talking about we're talking today. Right. given discussions to the students and stuff. Let me ask you this. When you wrote your books, I assume you had to get them reviewed by the CIA. Yeah.

Was there anything that had to be redacted or left out? No, really, everything was clear. Everything. In fact, they were learning. They didn't know whether it's classified or not. Yeah. They didn't know about it. Wow.

I'll give you an example. Robarts calling me up here a while back. Well, it's been several months now. they crossed came across the document had project red flag on it and you go back in the UFO lure they've known about red flag and they always associated with bit something to do with UFOs alien stuff red flag anyway he um he called me grab your headphones are we on there now yeah yeah we're good yeah we're on can you say this on the air yeah okay okay i'm sorry

I didn't know it was on air. Oh, yeah. Is that okay? Do you want us to delete anything? Okay, we were talking about the CIA still learning stuff about what, I don't know if it's one. Right. And a project red light has always been a topic that people had seen you about the associate with UFO activities, aliens, and stuff, or didn't know what it was.

And Dr. Robart from CIA called me up and they said, you know, we got a lot of documents. There was a red flag on it. Yeah. What is that? What was that? Well, we had two projects, one with the YouTube program with Froghorn, and then with 812, it was red light. Everything, when we bought supplies, like commissary supplies,

or fuel for the planes or anything, we couldn't tell the vendor where it was going, what it's for, or who it's for. So you stamped it, Project Red Light, or Project Frog horn and they knew not to ask any questions no questions that and that's what those doctors were they were actually invoices and stuff you know accounting or whatever for fuel commissary items and stuff that for right facility out there oh wow but the see they didn't know what that was and but those others you had almost be boots on the

ground know a lot of that right we signed the project name to almost everything we did yeah maybe just one fly but have a project name to it, if it's a special flight. So this just popped into my head. On the subject of all of this technology, you're aware of, the spoofing technology and all of this stuff, and the ECMs and the ECCMs, and the Tick-Tac stuff. The Tick-Tac stuff's interesting because this is stuff that you're hearing

third party right through pilots that said they saw this with their eyes. They're giving testimony. We have no reason not to believe them, but what about when it comes to events where it's like a mass public sighting, similar to like the Phoenix lights, where they were all seeing these giant triangle-shaped light formations in the sky, and that's on video, it's on photos. What do you think that was?

I'd be inclined to think it might be flares or something like that, but I really don't know. Flairs. It could have been some flare activities for some reason. and there's no telling it. Yeah. And those perfect V formations. Like you think flares would be able to stay in that in a formation and hover like that?

Not like that. They wouldn't, no. No. Not like what we're seeing. That one on the right is crazy. Top right, Steve. Up, up, down right there. Yeah, right there.

I think that's a rendering. Oh, that's a rendering. Yeah. Damn it. Hmm. Trying to stick with the non-replicated stuff. I don't know if this is authentic either. 29 years ago.

Yeah, in 1997. It's hard to say. It's very interesting. Yeah, I had no idea what that was. Yeah. A lot of people did see that. Now, a lot of the sightings, don't want to see them, but maybe one person. Those you have to kind of question.

But where you got a mass siding like that, there's a job of an explanation. Yeah. I think, do you think, like, the deepest, blackest research projects that are going on in regard to propulsion or, you know, any kind of spoofing technology, all that stuff, where do you think it would be? Do you think it would be buried, would it be in these private contractors? Or do you think there are any? Because I imagine if they're, what Area 51 was when you were doing it, I imagine now with how books and movies have been made about it and people talk about 24-7, I imagine they would move that stuff out of there and put it somewhere else.

Do you have any idea where they would put it? No, no, that kind of stuff would mostly be done by companies. Yeah, private companies. Pratt Whitney, that I talked about with engines, they were right here in Florida. and you wouldn't believe the number of explosions that the engines blew up and that sort of thing as we were developing those engines. Yeah.

You know, that didn't happen overnight. And the engine itself could take the plane up to 100,000 feet and faster than probably what it would go. Our biggest challenge was heat. The plane got so hot. that we had to set a limit on it, because we had used from positives even, and it's at some of the edges

that you get up too hot over 2,200 degrees. But, you know, everything had to be invented about that plane, you know, the fuels, hydrolytic, your fuel thing got the 600 degrees. The windshield would be 5, 600 degrees. Right. Everything was hot. Right.

And that's your limitation on speed, even today. So that makes me, questions a lot of this stuff that is around that you that's almost impossible that would generate meteorite like speeds right the heat of the sun they would have to figure out if that stuff is physical they would have had to figure out a new way of propulsion or a new way to to apply a new level of physics right to where they can bend space time around them you know even with X-15, you know, we generated, while I was only up, we generated eight astronauts in X-15. This is right at your shepherd and all of them made their initial flights.

But with X-15, any time, we went over 50 miles up. But it got extremely hot coming in. And we would lose communications with it as it came back into the atmosphere. And the ion field around it would block communication. So we would go through two or three minutes and not be able to communicate with the plane just like they did with the space shuttle and all of that.

We did the same thing with the X-15. Because the speed is going, the temperature. The temperature, the temperatures you got up to, and about the X-15, a lot of viewers probably don't know much about it. Everything that went to the moon in Apollo, we tested first in the X-15. The flights weren't testing the plane.

We were testing equipment that we were sending to the moon. Hydraulic systems and different things. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. Those missions were so interesting. I always said that my time on that program was much more interesting in Air 51. Really?

Every flight was a nail-biter. Sometimes it worked, like I said, and sometimes it didn't. We always had another pilot sitting on the console right beside me when we'd have a mission in case the pilot got in trouble, which happened quite often. Did your cockpit fill up

with ammonia or something. And the pilots up there were, you know, scared, you know, what's going on? And the pilot's on the ground, his job was to settle down, Joe, it happens all the time, remember? And it settled the guy down. Meanwhile, we're frantically trying to figure out what's wrong, what's wrong, because we've got to bring this guy back.

So every flight, but we were testing everything that went to the moon, we tested, that was our workhorse. Wow. Because once we, one or two flights, You know, we'd go up in the fringes of outer space. One mission I remember we got up at 4 o'clock in the morning during one of the meteorite showers that comes around every year, I think it's November.

Anyway, our mission was to collect some meteorite dust. We'd put some little things on the wing, and we went up and flew up into the meteorite, to collect a little bit of meteorite dust. That was one of our missions. Interesting. What was the purpose of it? just to see what it was something out of the space, something out of the space.

Say it was going to Mars or the moon or wherever it came from. Yeah, very interesting. So you took this plane up with equipment that was used for the Apollo missions. And like, for example, where would you put the equipment? It would replace something in the plane. It may be something in the hydraulic system or it changed the plane out. And that plane there could, we'd launch it at Wendover, Utah. Yeah.

And it would land at Edwards. And time it, it'd grow up and it drove up 250,000 feet or so. Yeah. And it has to slow down. And he'd be drinking coffee seven minutes after we launched him. But we'd bring him up on a B-52. And we always had a dry lake bed in Nevada that we'd launch him. him over in case the engine didn't start, he could land on that dry legbed. Oh, wow. So we always

launched him over a dry leg bed. Yeah. And we, I'll tell you the story, one of her lodgers that was at Mud Lake up at Tonapal. The engine didn't ignite. He landed on the dry leg bed. It was on a Friday. Hey, Ontario. Come on down to Bet MGM Casino and see what our newest exclusive, the Price's Right Fortune Pick, has to offer. Don't miss out. Play exciting Casino games based on the iconic game show only at BetMGM. Check out how we've reimagined three of the show's iconic games, like Plinko, Clifhanger, and The Big Wheel, into fun casino game features.

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Whoa. There is photographs, but I did. In your driveway? In my driveway all weekend. You know, we live in Beatty, north of Las Vegas. Yeah. That's where the tractor station was. Sit there all week, but we thought nothing of it.

It wasn't a big deal with us. Yeah. And I look back now, I give me things. It makes it on top of it or something. Also, one of the crazy things about the technology that was used on the Apollo missions is that one of the things that people don't realize is that the temperature in the sunlight on the moon is like, I believe, 250 degrees Fahrenheit. And in the shadows, it's like negative 250 degrees Fahrenheit.

And they stayed there for, I don't know how long, a couple days or something like that. Like, how in God's name were they able to do that? Yeah, I know. And that back then, that many years ago. You think about the, and what was amazing is the computing systems we had. We got much more my iPhone than we had for the whole program. That's right. The computing power on the iPhone is like, I think it's a million times the computing power in an iPhone

and then all of the computing power of the Apollo missions. Let me tell you another story, X-15. We had an old mod, we called the Mod 2 radar. That was the same radar that we gave Russia during World War II during the Linn-Lease program. NASA had got a hand me down from the Air Force that used this radar at the Cape, Cranadro, and we ended up with it on the X-15 range.

That radar was so old that, that you pull out a chassis and the installation on the wires would crumble down on your console. So you didn't dare touch it. And they're in a mission. A lot of times we had a scope that would black out. We used oscilloscopes for scopes then. And you knew where the bang on it could get to come back on. Of course, you didn't lose flight.

You know, he was still tracking. Right. But you didn't have visual. But we were using so outdated equipment and putting the guys up in the fringes of outer space. That's so crazy. It was crazy. But we used an old mod two radar for those missions and slide rules. Right.

And also, like, the footage, right? Like, how did they get those film reels through the Van Allen radiation belts undamaged? Right? If there's things are so dangerous and you're going out there, you're getting all this footage and you're bringing it back and it's on film and reels, like film gets damaged very easily. It's not, you've got to protect. Even going through, like, airports. TSA, like bringing them through the scanners that can damage film.

So, no, these things went through the damn Van Allen radiation belts undamaged. Yeah, we wore no semesters out there protect us from, you know, so we don't figure out any radiation. And we never, we never got any speakable enough to be concerned about. And today, right now, as we speak, they're getting bills passed to give compensation to people worked at Area 51. Right. From radiation.

And they show, in the, in the propaganda they put out, they show above-atmosphere atomic bomb test going on. They weren't, we didn't have those. They had already stopped that. But our guys. Where they were detonating him in the outer atmosphere? Yeah, they're showing that now to justify them getting compensation. And that wasn't happening then in Air 51. So the whole story, but what I'm getting to is we worked out there.

They had atomic bomb test while I was working out there. And we'd have to evacuate during the day of the test. And we come back out as the mushroom, you know, they run the ground. But every now and then you'd have a cloud from the dust and stuff. And the highway, the sheriff had stopped the traffic on the road till the dust passed through over into Utah and then let them go. And you get a free car wash out of it. Oh, wow.

And we'd come back out and we did dust that, you know, brush the dust off of her desk and that kind of stuff. And we'd have a little bit of damage every now and then from a test, you know, when it's in the atmosphere in particular. But our guys that worked out there, almost all of them lived up into the 90s. I'm one of the younger ones. We never had any problems. We worked out there. Now today, now they did have problems later when they had the burn pits. We didn't have those.

Yeah. But as far as the radiation, we never had any radiation. Right. Well, I mean, the problem with it, or the reason that people are so confused by the public, which, you know, they don't have the full picture, right? They're not scientists. We're just people that are trying to read online and watch videos and make it and rationally kind of understand this stuff, is that you can watch videos from now till Friday of astronauts,

modern-day astronauts talking about how we have to develop more technology and more protection before we can send astronauts into beyond the Van Allen belts. So it's like, why are we having such trouble figuring this problem out now when we did it back then? You know, it's like... It's very strange, right? Like there's very few technologies that don't advance exponentially throughout time. right if you look at you know just look at the the time between the civil war and world war two and we went from shooting muskets to detonating fusion devices absolutely so like if we went to the moon in the 60s why do we go backwards you know and i get i get i get the i get the argument right it was the space race it was just a performative thing we wanted to beat the so we wanted to beat the russians be the first ones there for to prove that america was superior and all this

this and but still. You know, a lot of people don't know this. In the early days, all the area 51, we'd run into periods when we really wouldn't have a project between the migs and the stealth and stuff. So they've loaned us out, we call it the black world and there's loaners out, some of us, to the white world, that was atomic bomb testing

for particular, for special problems that they were having, that they needed our expertise for. And, but we would go over there and work in the white world. So I got to sit through, I think there's five atomic bomb tests, underground tests. Oh, wow. I got to participate in. And I've got to go back into ground zero that have an underground that have a tunnel.

They had them in a mason, most of them, they had some, you know, the drill. But you go back, but go in and set up the experiments. They usually, universities would have a grant, and different ones. It wasn't just military or, you know, maybe you might have one or something, but most of the universities doing research, maybe for x-ray shields or, who knows, you know, medical. And you had up towards round zero, you had your experiments that was looking for high temperatures or force. Then further back, you're learning different experiments for different type of radiation that travels to different speeds and all that kind of stuff. And they're setting up these stations, you know, where they're doing.

sensors and whatever. And when they set off the bomb, of course, they had simulations all up and they had all these cameras and stuff and high-speed tape recorders to capture the moment that the bomb exploded, detonated.

But we go down and help them set up the experiments in these big old like a hour wasn't a tunnel, I mean a big metal deal, cylinder.

Anyway, we set these up. After the test went off, we could go back down and pick up some experiments after the test. The radiation hadn't traveled that for it. When the bomb went off, it started detonating sections of the tunnel so that the heat go through as far as it needed to for those experiments. Yeah. But it started blocking off stuff so that you didn't wipe out all the experiments that you were doing. right it's just a series of explosions oh really but i was able go back in at your after a bomb went off and retrieving experiments way way back at the end of the tunnel oh wow

but we never got any radiation that's that's the thing yeah that was another question i had like you see those videos they have of the nuclear bombs going off and blowing out these like fake towns they build right you see the house is being shredded how do those cameras survive if the house is literally being incinerated yeah I had for a long time two of the mannequins that we built a Japanese city out there. Yeah. And put mannequins in it, cars in the driveway. You were there doing that?

No. I ended up with two of the mannequins. A buddy of mine had gotten them, he had security out there. Sometime or other, he had got those mannequins, and he gave them to me. And I had those things for the longest time, and I finally donated them to the atomic testing museum. No way. And they put them in the basement. they've never seen a lie today.

Wow, you should not have given those. But they had it's a woman and a child and had AEC stamped on the back of it and all that kind of stuff. No way. I wish I hadn't had done it. And these days, you know, a lot of us that worked out there,

we started trying to find a home for stuff that we had collected, you know, from back in. Yeah. And we found the museums of the worst place in the world to go with it. Yeah. They just bury it. They put in the basement.

Wow. These mannequins right here, huh? Similar to this? Yeah. Mine didn't have clothes on. Okay. Nude mannequins. They even put food in pantries.

Oh yeah, we had the whole works. We need to know what would happen with atomic bomb tests. Right. Do you know how the cameras survived? No, I don't. That I don't. I'm not sure they survived very long. Right.

And was it, would that have been shot on film? Steve? Do we know? Oh, yeah. They didn't have digital back then. That would have been on film. Yeah, they had been on film, yeah. And the trailers, they had Polaroid film cameras.

Just rolls at your rolls of them. And they've had drills. And they've tried to time those where they were, that camera would click just as that bomb exploded. So they could get whatever data they were looking for. Right. And so I got to see some other. real. So look at that. The camera doesn't even move. I've been back after those areas many times. Well, that one moved a little bit. You're going to tours out there today. Oh, really? Yeah,

I've been out there several times. Wow. How far away was that city from the actual detonation? I don't know. I don't know. Wow. Oh, it's not far. You can see it right there. You'll see it. You'll In some of those films, you'll see the atomic cannon. I think that's a shot from the atomic cannon right there. When I deployed to Germany with the Halt missile unit, we went on the move on one event. We ended up protecting, we had an atomic cannon in Germany right out of Bamberg. What's an atomic cannon?

She's a nuclear bomb just like that. I had it ain't right at Russia. Oh. And my unit moved. to that atomic cannon to defend it. I mean, assimilated, it's maneuvers, you know. I got to see the atomic cannon not only at the test site, but they still got it at museum peace,

but I got to see one in the actual setup in Germany. Oh, wow. So why were we blowing holes in the atmosphere with nukes? Why were we doing that? That was like Starfish Prime, I believe it was. Yeah, that was your ECM. Okay, electromagnetic EMPs. EMP, I'm sorry, EMP.

Yeah. Yeah, we were really into EMP at that time. And that's something we need to figure. I've written a few books on EMP. I got exposed to some of that. Oh, really? That is more, well, we're using today, selectively, but you could put a,

that made an atmospheric bomb or EMP device and wipe out the electricity in the whole United States. Right. I mean, I mean, it's horrible. And we got that. The Russians did that, and we did it both. We set one off in the, I think, the Johnson Islands,

and it traveled all the way to Hawaii, knocked out a lot of electricity in Hawaii. Oh, wow. Yeah, and one of the scariest things about that is, I think we have these interceptor missiles in the United States in Vandenberg and in Alaska that are supposed to be intercept. They're supposed to shoot these. warheads out of the sky before they hit us.

So like, I assume that's going to cause an EMP if it explodes the warhead before it detonates. And also, like, what is the chance that I think we have 44 of these interceptor missiles? Yeah, not every, not every warhead would be EMP. That's like kind of a special device. So you can't just detonate a warhead in the atmosphere and have an APE effect? Yeah, no, you wouldn't. Oh. Yeah, there's special.

device. I thought a nuclear warhead, no matter what, would have a residual EMP effect. Not to extent, not like a MP device is designed to take out all your electronics. Right. Just a regular atomic bomb test would not necessarily do that. Okay. It's more force and that sort of thing. But an EMP device, it looks for an antenna.

and you know if you got it inside of the 10 building or something you're okay it's looking for nantana and they'll go wherever it once it gets in it travels everywhere oh wow and just in seconds it would if it hit one hit over the United States and you got in our electrical grid it would go wherever that little grid even in old Mexico Canada wherever it went and it wipe out everything wow it wipe out your TVs your your your cars, if you got these little electronic starter, the older cars with electronic starters, yeah.

Yeah. Well, no, all cars now have electronic starters. Yeah. There's only the old ones that don't. The old ones would survive. The old ones would survive, right. Yeah. They did wipe out everything in electronic.

So you can imagine all of a sudden, not only you don't have lights, but you can't pump your water into big cities, wiped out your motors. You flushed toilet, it doesn't refill. It'd be Mad Max and short order. It's bad time.

Yeah, very bad time. I mean, we see a little bit of it here when we get hurricanes down here in Florida. It wipes out the power in most of Florida for, you know, weeks sometimes. And it's happened here recently. And it's crazy to see how people start to freak out and panic. Your grocery stores are empty. Imagine your iPhone's not working. It's the things you don't even think about in normal everyday life that become like the most sought after things, like toilet paper.

You would never think about that, but toilet paper is gone. Yeah. As soon as we get loose power, no one has toilet paper. And there's no running water. It's crazy. No more deliveries. Yeah. So your priorities change very fast.

And just, you know, losing power is not a big deal from a hurricane, but a freaking EMP. That's like that on steroids. And my, I did a three book series on EMP, actually four. And that had been so, it's still very, very popular. But mostly with your preference, the people that prep for that kind of event, I have. had many, many of them contacted me. He said, man, I never thought of that. It'd be things in it that, for example,

when everybody started running out with food, it happened, my story takes place in Nevada, of course. The first place the Raiders go to look for food is the Mormons. Because they know the Mormon store of food for such an event. Right. So they instantly become the target.

That's why the Mormons are armed to the teeth. They prepare for, I forget, I think it's a three-year supply of food or something like that. Wow. And the people would realize that, and that makes them a automatic target. People are starving to death, you know. Yeah. I've heard stories. I've had people tell me these stories about like literal, like militarized Mormon militias in Mexico.

Yeah. Mormons are well, they've always been well prepared. Yeah. But the preference, I had a lot of preference contact me. man, I never thought about that. And, you know, never thought about that happened or this happening. Right. Have you heard the stories of some of the folks who have, like Bob Salas,

who worked at Malmstrom Air Force Base, where they held the intercontinental ballistic missile sites in northern Montana, I believe it was, where there was multiple incidents where these guys would have their whole entire site shut down and all the new, would be disarmed in a way that they had never seen before. And it was corresponded with this great big ball of light showing up, this big red ball of light showing up at the front gate on the top surface level, the security guards would phone them down.

Like, we got some crazy ball of light down here, and all of a sudden systematically every nuke would go offline. I've heard something about that. I don't know. Is it real or I don't know? Yeah, there was multiple people, multiple Air Force guys who were in charge. charge of those nuclear sites, like Malmstrom, for example. You know, those guys aren't kooks. Those guys have to be like tip-top levels psychologically sound individuals. And they

reported this happening and then like days later being visited by Boeing contractors, like asking them questions and all this kind of stuff. Yeah, I don't know on that. No. You know, like it's drone stuff that craze about the military and stuff over the military installations, you know, it's making a big deal out of that. Of course, the military is flying drones. Right. And they're...

Oh, you're talking about the New Jersey drones? Yeah, and all that. And, you know, there's making a big deal out of that. Of course, the military's not going to reveal what they're doing. They should either be flying drones for a reason or they could be testing anti-dron technology, which would require drones in the air. Right.

So it could be one or the other. But, you know, going back to the release of all this. No one's ever going to admit any of that, because you can't afford to. I mean, the military. Right. Well, that's survival, natural security. Yeah, it's just, it's crazy because how do you expect us to,

like, how do you expect the public to believe all the shit you're selling us? You know, when we know there's secrets, we know, like, there's stuff going on, but, like, you just still can come out with just, come out with bogus lies. Like at some point, the chickens are going to come home to roost, I feel like. You know, like you're just going to lose all the trust of the public because, you know, you want to be the, you know,

number one military on the earth. And you're going to do that at the expense of losing the trust of the people. I don't know whether it really would or not. But a lot of people, the media, that's a big story. You're media loves to run by this. You know, that's their new cycle. And for a good reason, you know. But the government should have to keep his secrets.

Of course. Of course. Yes. It's a, it's definitely a double-edged sword. The government does need to keep his secrets, for sure. And, you know, for obvious, and I'm a good friend of George Knapp. He's one of my best friends. He's great.

I'm a huge fan. And we wait out all the time. But, you know, he's really upset that the government won't tell them what's going on. And I keep telling him, George. Look, if we didn't have a CIA, we might be fucked. I keep telling George, I said, George, they can't tell you that. Right. There's no way they're going to tell you that.

Right. And, you know, he said, well, they're hiding someone. Damn right, they're hiding something. They've got to. Right. Keep us safe. Yeah. No, totally.

It's totally true. This AI thing, it scares me deaf because, you know, they're trying to put reins on AI. which is out of the box. There's no way you're going to put it back in the bottle. Yeah. It's just, no. And if we try to put controls on it in the United States, China's going to keep right on going.

Russia's going to keep right on going. Well, it's already getting out of control here. Like that thing just came out with that new clod that they released where it's like capable of hacking the NSA. The problem is like if people can get their hands on this and figure out how to use it for whatever means possible to where. Like the government at some level, right, like the institutional level of CIA or NSA or DIA, right?

If some really smart engineers or programmers, some rogue cartel of programmers can get their hands on this stuff and use it to hack the government, that's a huge problem. It's a big problem. It is a major problem. But, you know, we were doing, we were getting into, AI even while out at the area. Oh, wow.

We did not have computers, okay? The Atomic Energy Commission had a great computer, which was a super computer. Like this was a vacuum tube computers back then? Yeah. We got access to it because we needed to store data. But we had all these systems, and we might have a one-of-a-kind mission out there. And we couldn't afford to lose any data because they had all these radar that would be tracking their systems. So we actually designed our first computer by hand.

We hired a computer programmer out of, anyway, we hired a programmer. He came in and we physically built a computer, and all it could do was we programmed that here's what we expect out of this system, this system you should see this. And then if you didn't see that, It had an anomaly. It was alert us.

So you might say it was an AI system. It was looking for something that should be normal and was able to tell us if it wasn't normal. Oh, interesting. So we could fix it and not lose that data when we had the mission. Oh, wow. That's incredible. So that was our, you know, it was very primitive. But we designed our first AI system.

Yeah. The future. of this kind of stuff is going to be very frightening, I have a feeling. It's going to be so sci-fi that it's going to be almost hard to comprehend for most folks. Even back in Apollo, we could have sent a system to the moon.

Could have? Without a man. Right. And done everything that we did. Exactly. The only reason we put a man in it, it was funding. You couldn't get money out of Congress unless you put a man in it. Really?

If you put a man in it, you had to put an air conditioner in it, you had to put a window in it. We were already flying planes out at NASA at Dryden, unmanned planes in the late 60s. You know, we were already that already... I thought the reason we put the man on the moon was because we wanted to be able to,

we were racing to be the first person to put the man on the moon. We were. Yeah, we were. And that was part of it. And the astronauts, you know, the parade them around all over the country. Yeah. But we could have done it without the astronauts. Right. And it would have been much more efficient.

Much more efficient, much quicker. Which is another argument, I believe, to why we haven't gone, why humans haven't been back to the moon since. Right? Because that was a one-time sort of performative thing to get humans there. It was. But it's a waste of. money and it's too risky to keep sending human beings out there. You don't need to see any more.

You can get everything done with robots. You do everything with drones and your robots. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. That's the future. Yeah. Well, man, this has been a fascinating conversation, man. Thank you for doing this.

It's been fun. Tell me more about your books. Where can people find your books, read your books? Their own Amazon. I got some with publishers, but everything is on Amazon. Okay. Just Google my name. Is this the latest one?

That's the latest one that just came out this month. Secret Skies, Inside Area 51's Soviet Mig Exploitation. This thing, this is a big boy right here. Over 500 pages. Yeah, it's full of photographs and stuff. and the Station D, Area 51 was the first one. It was published by Beckerhouse, same publisher to that one. Okay.

And it's pretty well worldwide. We didn't get a good start on it. COVID happened just as we came out with it. Oh, no. We had to cancel our premier and all that kind of stuff. Oh, no. But it's a much bigger, it's a large paperback book. Okay.

But it's got a lot more. This one is just about the mega programs. Okay. But the other one was why we had an area if you had to one. Why did the CIA get chosen over the Air Force? It tells about the battles we had with the Air Force. I mean, we had some horrible battles. So the Air Force thought anything flying should be wearing a blue suit.

Right. And Air Force fought with NASA to. Joe Yeager was a friend of mine, but we had a lot of battles. If you were in Air Force, you shouldn't be flying. And so we had a lot of issues, but we also had a lot of issues inside the CIA. So there was a co-ops, operations type organization,

flying that stuff. All of a sudden, here comes science and technology. And we were competing with them for office space, money, and they didn't want us. But every 51 was the genesis of the director of science and technology. That's what started. The director of science and technology.

That started every fifth of one. Because they realized we're on to something here. We're into electronics, we're into radar. Right. And aerial reconnaissance and that sort of stuff. So we had a lot of battles inside of CIA over dominance of the aerial reconnaissance. For example, we're getting our film developed.

We took a priority over, everyone else did our film develop. But then when the Air Force, Air Force started flying, and they wanted to use the same film developers. Well, they want theirs instantly, because they've got a mission going on. They didn't know right now,

we weren't in that big a hurry. Because we were getting into intelligence, different type, human intelligence, and that sort of thing. But they were operational. They didn't even know right now. So we had a lot of battles over who controlled the films development,

and just stuff like that. Yeah, it's also very interesting. I learned recently that even the newest telescopes that NASA uses, or not NASA, but like the biggest telescopes that we have that can explore deep space and explore the solar system, all of the images taken by those big telescopes has to be cleared through the Pentagon before they can be released into the public. I don't doubt it. That's crazy. You know, when they take our photograph at the agency, they have to be cleared before they release them to. You know, it's just us standing there in the emblem, you know. Right, right. But something just basic like this, you know, just for scientific research, you know.

I'd say where they would want to get those cleared, yeah. I don't know why, but competition. You know, spaces are next frontier. Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's space satellites, you know, our space force. No telling what they're doing up there. Yeah.

No talent. No talent. Well, thanks again, man. I will link all your books below. Yeah, just Google me. Just TD Barnes. TD Barnes. Yeah.

Perfect. All right. Well, it was a pleasure. I really appreciate your time. My fun. All right. Had fun. Good night, everyone.