Danny Jones Podcast - #422 - "We Cracked Antigravity" NASA Physicists Shows Proof of Secret Tech

Episode Date: August 14, 2026

Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Charles Buhler is the lead research scientist in the Electrostatics and Surface Physics Laboratory at NASA. Andrew Aurigema is a professional Aerospace Engineer. Charles & Andrew have developed the world's first 'propellantless' thrust technology to replace combustion rockets for space travel. http://exoduspropulsion.space SPONSORS https://dosedaily.co/danny - Use code DANNY to get 35% off your first subscription. https://butcherbox.com/danny - Get $20 off your first box, plus your choice of free ground beef for life, or free chicken thighs or top sirloins in every box for a year. https://ethos.com/danny - Take 10 minutes to get covered today, with life insurance through Ethos. https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off. EPISODE LINKS http://exoduspropulsion.space *NEW* DJP MERCH https://dannyjonespodcast.com FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - New propulsion tech needs no fuel 04:23 - Working Star Trek impulse engine (electrostatic propulsion) 11:11 - Chemical rocketry won't get us to Mars 17:58 - "Hidden Momentum" experiment 24:39 - NASA's response to Exodus' research 31:33 - "We can get to Mars in 3.5 days" 37:16 - The $1.50 warp drive thruster 39:30 - First warp drive spaceship in history 45:18 - Fighting with U.S. patent law 51:57 - Andrew's homemade vacuum chamber 58:34 - What's holding Exodus research back 01:03:45 - Rocket industry reaction to Exodus' research 01:09:23 - Why the TicTac UFO probably isn't real 01:18:07 - Bob Lazar & gravity waves 01:22:48 - The missing scientist phenomenon 01:28:07 - Rocket explosions 01:30:58 - Charles says telepathy is real 01:34:54 - Conflict with chemical rocketry 01:43:48 - Video demo of fuel-less thruster 01:49:43 - Skeptics' criticism of the Exodus thruster 01:57:07 - The danger of high voltage experiments 02:03:04 - Biefeld-Brown effect 02:09:11 - Hidden military technology 02:15:56 - Saturn V's pogo problem 02:19:05 - Why we haven't been back to the Moon 02:27:38 - Re-used equipment in the Artemis missions 02:31:41 - The man who hacked NASA 02:33:52 - The dark side of the Moon 02:40:31 - Watching for orbs with Chris Bledsoe 02:43:04 - Charles' unusual orb experience 02:52:32 - The consciousness mystery 03:00:05 - Exodus tech as asteroid defense Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All right, gentlemen, thank you for coming. You guys are some real deal scientists making it over here to the West Coast. Sorry? He's a scientist. I'm an engineer. Oh, scientist and engineer. Huge. Cool.

You guys figured out a new kind of propulsion that doesn't use fuel. Is that correct? That is correct. That is correct. And you guys are right over on the East Coast of Florida in Coco Titusville area. Yeah, we both came from the space program, the Kennedy Space Center. He was on the NASA side, the dark side. The dark side.

I was on the contractor side. Okay. Why don't we, for folks that are listening, break down who you guys are and what your backgrounds are. You want to go first, Charles? Yeah, sure. Dr. Charles Bueller, the lead scientist of the Electrostatics and Service Physics Laboratory, NASA Kennedy Space Center.

I've been at the Space Center since 2000 on and off. I did a 10-year stint as a consultant for ExxonMobil and then came back to NASA about 7, 8 years ago. But I have a research lab, about 10 of us in the lab, that I run there. And in my time off from NASA, we discovered this phenomenon, this effect. So I've been working this effect together since 2016.

So you're actually employed by NASA? I am a federal civil servant, yes. Are they okay with you doing all these public talks about? You are absolutely allowed to. you let them know ahead of time, yes. Oh, wow. Okay. Yes. And you were involved in all kinds of, like, famous NASA programs, right?

Like including like the space shuttle. Yes. I wrote the space shuttle, constellation, ISS, a couple of Mars programs. Yeah, all of the space programs. Okay. At least since 2000. Okay, cool.

Yeah, I definitely want to learn more about that stuff. And Drew? Andrew Orimah, 40-year veteran of the space program. contractor side, been out since, been on Space Center since 1981, you did college, and then went back out there and it was continuous up until I just retired out of the space program, out of the U.S. space program, three weeks ago to start my own company. Oh, congratulations. Exodus, propulsion technologies.

And the goal was to do what NASA wasn't doing. So about 20 plus years ago looked around, 22 years ago, looked around and said, we're never getting out of low earth orbit. It's just chemical rocketry is not the answer to anything, least of all getting out of orbit. So started looking at all the crazy electric propulsion that were coming out, all this stuff, said, I just got to figure it out. It's because nobody else is doing it, so I'm going to do it. About 10 years ago, 10 years, two months and three days, actually. A friend of ours, I went to him and I said, I need an electrostatics guy. I don't even know what electrostatics is, but I think I need one of those guys.

And he hooked, my buddy hooked me up with Dr. Charles, who was also working on this in his background. And we struck magic since then. Now we have a fully functional electrostatic propulsion system that requires no fuel, no propellant, no oxidizers. It is literally latching onto space and pulling itself forwards. It's latching onto space and pulling itself forward. Okay. Something like that. You know, I'm saying, I say one thing he says another, but nobody understands what he talks about.

Is this kind of like what you hear when you hear people talking about electrogravittics or anti-gravity? I know that's kind of a fringe term, but are we in the same ballpark? I pray we're not. Yeah, I prefer not too. I don't want to be looped in with that. Anti-gravity has picked up some really negative connotation. We call it poisoning of the well. Negative connotations.

Oh, yeah. So many people have rushed out there and said, oh, I have anti-gravity. I have space drive. I have this. I have that. It's all been pretty much nothing. Most of it's atmospheric effects. But we literally have, and I don't know if we're allowed to say Star Trek.

Are we allowed to say Star Trek? I love Star Trek. We have the Star Trek impulse engine. You put in energy, a tiny, tiny bit of energy in the form of electrostatic charge, and you are rewarded with your spaceship moving, lifting off the ground, flying through space, doing all the things that you expect a really cool Star Trek spaceship to do. At the moment, it's little, it's tiny.

We brought some examples. We're looking for our first big customer, who's willing to take a chance on our propulsion system, system by replacing all of their chemical propulsion with our electrostatic propulsion. But we have literally the Star Trek impulse engine. Okay. So can you break this down for like a third grader? What is electrostatic propulsion and how does it work? Oh boy. You want to get that into that right now. Okay.

Very, very, very, like 90,000 foot view. Sure. you know, how I think it works and, you know, have math to back it up, physics to back it up. It's basically a higher order expansion, if you will, term

of the force of attraction that we get from Kulom's Law. So essentially Kulam's Law is attraction between two particles, right? They're either attract or repel. And we have all the physics that describes that and how that's derived, how nature does that, why nature does that.

This force, I believe, is manifested using an expansion of that set. So essentially, a higher order perturbation. Pertubation theory is what's used to describe all of the physics for essentially what we have in quantum electroedynamics. So what we do is we just go to a higher order perturbation and see what falls out. Now, it won't have the same strength or energy as their Kulam counterparts, plus and minus is detracting and repelling. but at a lower energy, but it'll have, it'll have an ability to actually move as a whole together. And that kind of just falls out of the expansion of the perturbation theory. It's a very strange thing.

But it was never needed. It was never necessary because no one's ever discovered this. We've known electrostatics for 150 years. We've never seen anything self-propelled with just electrostatics. It's either attracting or repelling. We've never seen both the attractor and the repeller move together in unison. So I just went back to the physics books and say, well, what is the interaction physics for that? Found out how it works in the second order, which is Kulom's law, and then apply that to the third order.

Go further. Just go further, deeper down. And when you do that, we'll use Andrew's term, you're rewarded with physics that tells you where the force comes from and how it enables and how it manifests and why it's there. It's pretty cool. And it fits our experiments too. And I did the math over my vacation last couple of weeks to kind of to show that we can actually verify that with our experiments, which is really outstanding. Very excited and giddy about it. So you're the first to hear about this, but it's super cool. But that's what it is. So basically what happens is every particle interacts with another particle in the universe in quantum electrodynamics through an exchange of a virtual photon.

Just consider it like a, I was telling him on the way over here, like a string. So if I had to explain it to a third grader, every particle is attached to another particle with a string. can pull in tension or it can release in compression either way whether it's attractive or repulsive right we can't see these but we know they exist in nature and we come out and they fall out the math and it's very well known to science and they have a lot of effects on their own the strings do these imaginary strings these lines of force we call them we can't isolate them as real particles we can't hold them in our hand and look at them under microscope but they're there mathematically Right.

They're attached to the charge, so we can't decouple them from the charge. You can not have one or the other. You have the charge with the field or you have the field with the charge. You can't decouple them. Okay. So that's basically why you can't see this virtual photon. Mathematically, it's a photon, which is a light particle. A light particle is a real particle you can hold and see and isolate.

Right. But there are three virtual photons in math, in one real one. One of the three virtual photons could be responsible. responsible for our force, for our force. So what happens in the higher order terms is these other virtual photons exist and they give the momentum

exchange with the particles without the recoil. That's what the math says. That's what falls out. So usually in second order, what happens is one particle's coming along, it releases this photon, so it recoils,

and the second photon catches it and it recoils. So like two ice skaters exchanging a bowling ball on an ice skating rink. Right. The overall system from a thousand foot view means momentum is conserved. Basically, what I started with is what I end with. Because I've exchanged the bowling ball. I recoil, you caught the bowling ball, you recoil.

So there's no net translation of those two charges in space. That's basically Kulom's law. So that's why plus particles and minus particles attract or they repel, but the whole system doesn't move as a whole. In the third order, someone gives a second bowling ball, they throw that first one to the other person, then they throw the second one somewhere else,

and they don't catch a second one. So if they don't catch it and you're tethered together, you're going to move as a whole. Or if the second person has a bowling ball, a second bowling ball and they throw it, they're going to go somewhere else and take you with them. So that's the simple third grade analogy. Wow.

Momentum Conservation from Quantum Electrodynamics, third order time-independent perturbation theory. Whoa. scientist? I don't know if that made sense. But that's how I describe it. I've heard it 50 times. I have the same look on my face as you do.

Sure. What do you want me to build for you? So, okay, how did you first come up with the idea to create this? Like, what problem did you want to solve? Did you just understand, like what you said earlier? We haven't been able to escape Earth's lower orbit. we have to figure it a new way because I've thought about this too you know it's like it's amazing that we've come so far with technology since you know the civil war shooting we went we went

from you know the 1800s during the civil war shooting muskets to like 80 years later you know detonating nuclear bombs and since then it's like we haven't really gotten that much farther i agree um I have degrees in rocket propulsion in aerospace um I'm I'm a student of Goddard, the guy who invented the liquid rocket engine. I'm a student of von Braun, the guy who perfected it. You know, he did some bad things with it. But for the most part, no, I'm way too young for that. I was going to say, who had been on his deathbed, you had to have been like a newborn.

I have talked to people who were his students. And by all accounts, he was a brilliant, brilliant man. I understand chemical rocketry, what you would call. action reaction reaction rocketry where you burn fuel and you create super hot gas and suck squish bang blow and out out one end goes the hot gas and out the other end goes the rocket. This is wonderful. You can get to orbit with chemical rocketry. You can buy chemical fuels. You can do the economics of chemical rocketry are very well known. You can do all the things you want to do in orbit. You aren't getting to Mars on chemical rocketry.

You know, I know some people say they're going to do it. And it's, you know, 40 or 50 launches to get enough fuel on board your ship to make the run to Mars every 22 months or some silly thing like that. But really, it's seven years to Jupiter. It's nine or 10 or 11 years to Saturn. These are not the realm of chemical rocketry is not the realm of a spacefaring civilization. I want to get out there. Okay, hold on a second. You're the first person, like legit aerospace person I've ever.

heard say that. Well, we all want, every engineer that's ever worked on a chemical rocket wants to work on a better one. Right. No, no, no. I understand that. But you're like the first legit aerospace person who's ever said, we're not going to get to Mars with chemical rockets. The math is ridiculous. I mean, yes, it can be done. Don't get me wrong. Anything can be done if you're bored enough and spend enough money. But you're talking 20, 30, 40, maybe 50 launches to put enough fuel to put enough impulse into your first kick. Because, Once you run out of gas, your rocket's a paperweight. So if all you got is that first kick to get you out of Earth orbit or to get you away from the Earth and get you on your way and then you've got to have a breaking orbit, you know, all that requires energy.

By the time you get to Mars nine months later, because you coast for nine months, then you set down and your ship's empty. Okay, so you've got to make more fuel. And that's just to get you back out of Mars orbit. it. So these are insanely complex and low yield. I mean, you might put up 1% of your initial mass on Mars, maybe less than 1%. Yeah, is it true that like the the starship rockets from SpaceX are like 95% fuel and only like 5% payload? It's probably higher than that. Wow. And that's not uncommon. And it's very common. A typical geosync satellite, satellite. Geosynchronous is about 22,000 miles up. They're the ones that kind of hang out over Denver, hang out over Florida. They rotate with the Earth. The rocket that takes to put that up there compared to the actual satellite that's in orbit, it's probably 95% rocket, fuel, whatever. Generally, they're thrown away. Sometimes they're now they're reused. But the satellite is 5%. And when you get the satellite to where it's going, 50%.

60%, 60%, 80% of the satellite is fuel to keep it there. Because there's always little perturbations. You've got to do station keeping burns. You got to do all kinds of silly things. So you burn a lot of fuel and a lot of energy just to keep yourself where you should be. Well, when you're done burning your fuel, when your fuel is exhausted, and in the most cases, it's like monomethydrideazine or something. When that fuel is exhausted, that's it. You get to go in what they call it. You get to go in what they call. all the graveyard orbit, which is move away from the important stuff because you're a danger at that point. You can't control yourself. And the same little perturbations are going to still happen to you. You might start drifting or sliding, whatever. We need it a better way. We need to get away from chemical rocketry into something better. And when I started, I didn't have the slightest clue.

I hate electricity. It scares me to death. Me too. I agree. It terrifies me that I work on a high energy, high physics, electrostatic propulsion system that I haven't got the slightest clue how it works. That's what he's for. I don't have to know how it works. All I've got to do is say, am I going to get hurt when I touch this, and then not believe him because it tends to lie.

So I spent the first 10 years chasing my tail, thinking about all the different ways that people were, you know, ion engines, and I fully understand ion engines. They're just chemical engines with a little electrostatic punch, so they get the ISP up around 3,000 or 4,000. Even that's not worthy of it. Then I found somebody who actually understood what is the only viable solution,

and that is the fields that make up space. That's what we want to do, okay? I watched a lot of Star Trek. They were always doing warp and stuff. It's great. It's the greatest thing ever. So I had to find somebody that understood fields and I did sadly it was Charles but you know we do with we make do with

what we have but now I love him like a brother so that'd be too true can we talk about the most underrated organ in your body the liver is performing more than 500 functions every single day supporting digestion energy production fat metabolism vitamin storage and processing basically everything you consume that's why I've been using dose for your liver it's It's a clinically backed liver health supplement, but instead of another pill or powder, it's a daily two ounce liquid shot. It tastes just like fresh squeezed orange juice with zero sugar, zero junk, and zero calories.

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It's time to do something for it. That's D-O-S-E-D-A-I-L-Y dot C-O-S-D-E-O-S-D-E-O-Sash Danny for 35% off your first month subscription. Yeah, I came at it from a different view. I think it was the early 90s, you know, when I was taking, you going high school and and looking at rocketry and stuff. I said, you know, rockets are cool, but I want something better. I want to see something better. I guess I think that really got me excited was back to the future,

seeing the hoverboards and the flying cars. There's got to be a way to do this. I just don't know how to do it yet. Yeah. There's got to be a better way. And so, you know, I go through school and I go into, you know, undergrad. And then I go into grad school in physics. And I said, okay, I've understood all the physics, at least what's out there.

what's the best path forward for that so I guess it was around 2000 2001 the most logical place to start for me would be the conservation of momentum from using a concept called field momentum now field momentum is electric field

cross product with a magnetic field E cross B that's kind of a strange term electric field cross magnetic term but that's called the pointing vector. Essentially what that means is anytime you have an electric field and a magnetic field in the same spot, you have a momentum. See what? You have momentum. They've known that since the 1800s, 1860s or so. And if you change that momentum, you get a force. So I said, well,

this is, why haven't people been doing this? And they have since the 1940s, 1950s, these E cross B thrusters. But it turns out, they discovered a new moment. momentum in the 1970s. All these momentum are being discovered called hidden momentum. Hidden momentum is a relativistic effect. And what that is, is it counteracts any field momentum that you have in your system if the charges are allowed to flow. So, for example, if I tell you that any object that is an electric field and a magnetic field in it that have a non-zero cross product, basically means they're perpendicular. Okay, at some point.

If that exists anywhere, there's momentum. That's what science will tell you. Like that thing's not moving. If I take a magnet, a bar magnet and I put 10,000 volts on it, you tell me that thing has momentum now? It does. Absolutely does. But it also has hidden momentum, which is a counteracting momentum due to the relativistic charge moving inside the bar magnet. Oh, that's weird.

So you got all these momentum. So I was like, okay, well, I got to get rid of this hidden momentum because it's killing my force that I want to make. E cross B. I want to just make an E. Crossby and kill it. Get my force. Yeah. Now you can do that in the angular case. Richard Feynman, the very famous Richard Feynman, if you've heard of him. Oh, yeah. He gave his students a disc. You have a frisbee. He's getting an experiment. You have a frisbee, a disc, and you have little balls on the edges of the disc, like beads, and you charge them up. Just put some charge on them. And you put it through a cellenoid. You turn on the silenoid. Nothing happens.

to turn off the silenoid, the disc rotates. Where did the momentum come from? He gave that to his graduate students as a homework problem. Sick man. But it turned out there was momentum stored in that field, that E cross B. It was non-zero. And when you shut it off, it gives a thrust. It gave a force.

And that has been verified in the 70s. You can actually turn things that way using this effect. I said, well, I got to just do the linear analog to it. Not the angular, but the linear. And that's where the hidden momentum came into effect. So the hidden momentum counteracts the actual effect that you would like to have in the angular case. That's not there. So Drew came to me in 2016 with an experiment that was working.

You know, it was crude. And it was nice, but it was crude. And I thought, well, I didn't think my wife thought, because she's the smart one. She said, isn't that the same kind of thing you're working? It's a different flavor. Said, well, that can't be. Let me go back to my lab and build something based on what she thought it was. And, you know, what we thought it was.

And then we made that giant needle thing. The giant needle thing. Of death. That's the experiment that you guys. Giant needle thing. It was one of the first needle things. It moved about three or four feet in the air. It was 140,000 volts.

But it was covered in tape. And it was awesome. It was like $10, $5 worth of stuff. And I just looked at that and said, that sucker's moving. So from then on, I thought that the field momentum experiment was the correct one because I have static charges now.

Drew had a static charge experiment where there was no hidden momentum. Ooh, isn't that exciting? No hidden momentum, but it still had the fuel momentum and I'm still able to change that field momentum to get my thrust. Wow. So I'm like, oh, we're on to it now.

Woo-hoo. And then, you know, after 20 years working on that theory and two solid years, he and I working on that almost every day, it was wrong. It was just wrong. Very wrong. And that's how science is. You might believe something, but nature doesn't care what you believe. Wow. Nature has its own plans.

But the reason why we went forward with it is because something was moving. So now we've got to figure out what was moving. So when we took one of these forms of the Pac-Man Thruster, we'll show you some of these ridiculous things. and shoved into a vatostarfoam, we had no more B-field, which means we had no more current. So now things got very, very weird. So imagine not having any current,

which means you don't have any power, because power is voltage times current. So you're not expelling a lot of power, and you're getting thrust. So that made things very, very strange. But it made things a lot easier to build. So then I had to go back to the math and say, well, I'll get rid of all this current.

got to get rid of all this B field out of here. And then let's see if this thing can conserve energy. So I have some math where I did some simple conservation of energy, the classical sense, to see if we can at least get something out of it that we could build, something that we can just tell us what to do. Based just on electric fields. And we were able to do that. And we'll show you some of those today.

Do you want to go through the... We have a really quick little slide show. Yeah, let's see it. It shows some of this stuff. Fantastic. Just go ahead and... I don't know. Which one you want to start from the top here?

I'm no good with computers. computers either. Engineer that doesn't isn't good with computers. This is not order, dude. Do you want this to be in any kind of order? You start with zero. Start with the first one. Okay, well I'll have to rename them.

What does NASA think about you guys doing this stuff? Start with 01. Isn't there a one? That was it. I don't know. I don't work for NASA. I mean, I think they like it. They think you guys are coops or are they think you guys?

I don't know if there's any official word from NASA on this. We have showed it to them several times. times. What was their reaction? Go away and don't bother us. Pretty much. You talk to you. Yeah, but pretty much it was go away because whatever you are, we don't care. For me, you know, NASA, listen, guys, we figured this out in the 50s. Leave us alone. No, for me, NASA, we have what's called different swim lanes, if you will, at the different space centers. So each space center is allowed to work on a certain technology. And then when it gets to a certain maturity level, you have to hand it off to another space center. So that would be very disadvantages for us to take this to

our space center because we'd have to stop working on it. And we're much more advanced. Oh, okay. And we'd have to hand it off to another space center. I understand. So we decided just to do it outside. Right. And just use it as an outside activity. Exactly. And you're having fun doing it too. Well, yeah. I want to have fun doing it. So I don't want to be told not to do it. Yeah. So we just decided to keep doing it. Okay. So hold on there for a second. Okay, you go. Is it ready? Yes. Okay. Um, I've been at this a while. That's me. That's me in 69 in front of what became Apollo 11. Whoa. Back then, they had a much more lenient program for Family Day. That's a cool

fucking photo, man. And I took another one 50 years later with me standing in the exact same spot with the Artemis one. Go ahead. So I've been at this a while. That's me before Warp Drive. That's me. I used to build telescopes. I built everything you see in that picture, including the concrete that the hangar sits on. What is that? That is a 0.8 meter research grade telescope. I ground the lens, ground the mirrors, metalized them, built the entire structure, and worked with a team of geniuses on the guidance and control systems for it. So I was seriously into astronomy and telescopes before I jumped into warp drive. So it was just me playing out. That's right out in front of my house. And of course, you know,

There's Dr. Charles, the smartest man in the room. And we love that whole ancient aliens thing and, you know, all the crazy theories. We live for this stuff. So that's one of our labs. That's when we first got together. That might be in the old, old lab. Like in 2016. Yeah, that's in Cape Canaveralham.

Yeah, that's when we first got together. As always, we started with squiggle boards, which what I call them. and I'd wait for him to fill up a little squiggle board with whatever he was squiggling on. And then I'd say the same words I tell him every time, what do you want me to build you? I can build anything, but I can't read his mind. So he would do some squiggles. We had our first intern. That's our first intern.

And then that's our first test bench where we were building high voltage power supplies because, curiously enough, we couldn't buy the high voltage power supplies that we needed. So we had to end up building them. and we burned a lot of them up and we learned a lot about building high-voltage power supplies. That was probably our first live production thrust device. The entire little thing that looks like a fish tank is actually ITO-co-coded P-E-T plastic, which just means that there's a thin metal film on all of the plastic so that we can ground the entire box.

It's like being in a metal box. So that's the Faraday shield around the test article. So this is like a little Faraday cage? That is a Faraday cage. You can see through it, but that is 100% Faraday cage shielded. All the grounds are tied together so that if there's any thrust created in the box, it isn't the box attracting to some other article in the room. So it's not Coolum attraction.

If there's any thrust created, it's because we are moving relative to space. So when you say that, are you referring to the Casimir effect? Is that kind of like similar? No? No. The Pulum attraction is what I was talking about earlier. If you have a charge on anything, it doesn't matter what it is. It'll attract to a ground.

Okay. Got it. Because they'll just induce a field into the ground of the opposite polarity. And it doesn't have to be a good ground. It could be wood, floor, anything. Okay. So you have to make sure you shield it. Got it.

We always measure the force on the box. That's that little force meter on the right there. That's measuring the force on the entire box, not what's in it. I just was in it. And since both of us worked after hours, you know, after our jobs, obviously I'm the one wearing the tie, and he's the one wearing the khaki shorts. You guys are a great team. Then the madness happened one day.

I came in the shop. Popcorn? No, there was a blob of foam. And he's jumping up and down screaming. It works, it works, it works. I'm like, what works? Sometimes these air tests are terrible because you'll ionize the air, and then the charges from the room will get to the outside.

outside of your test article and mess with your fields. So how do I keep the air away from my damn thruster? Because it nulls my fields. Right. So I use the brain blob here of spray foam to do that. That thing right there produces thrust. Well, what's in it does? A giant piece of popcorn?

No, that piece of foam. And that piece of wire produce thrust. It's in our patent. You should look it up. The foam is not. Have you ever opened your fridge, aimlessly stared into it for five minutes and then convinced yourself there's nothing to eat. That's what happened to me before I started using Butcher Box.

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slash D-A-N-N-N-Y. And be sure to use the link below so they know we sent you. How much force have you guys been able to create to date? To date, about 50 millinutons. And what is that in English? 50 million newtons is about enough to lift two of these pieces of paper. Just two pieces of paper. About 50 millimeters.

In on earth's gravity. Well, yeah. Yeah, the test is in a vacuum chamber. The idea is if you guys are in space, that's a decent amount of Earth. Well, the idea is that you put a thousand of those together. And you have a 5-Newton thruster. And you put a 5-Newton thruster behind anything and you can be at Mars in three and a half days. What?

With a thousand of what you've been able to create? Maybe 10,000. I don't know. I haven't gotten that big yet. But yes, we can produce 0.38G, continuous acceleration. from Earth orbit to anywhere on the Mars surface in three and a half days. We could build a spaceship. We can't.

We can't afford a spaceship. So your biggest problem, your biggest hurdle is getting into space. Yes. Maybe you can use traditional rockets to get into space. That's our goal is throw those away and then use what you've got done to. You know, we need to ride into space. And then once we're there, we can produce enough thrust to land on any other object in the solar system. It's very, very weak thrust.

But it's like driving a really old broken car from the 60s. doesn't work very well. You floor it. It moves. But if you keep it floored and you never run out of gas, you're going to be the fastest car on the planet in a few hours. Oh, yeah. And never have to go to the gas station. The numbers are staggering. And most people don't even believe them. And you think, how is a little blob of foam going to ever do any of the things that this guy is saying is going to happen? But if we had a spacecraft, and let's say it weighed 45 tons, metric tons, and 30 of those metric tons were. propulsion system, which leaves 15 tons for the spacecraft of the people, the ham sandwiches

you want to take with you, whatever. And your flushed toilet, by the way, in your Earth orbit, three and a half days later, you're on the surface of Mars. Three and a half days, because during those three and a half days, you continuously accelerated at 0.38 Gs, which means that you had the ability to pour your coffee in your mug the whole time. You can flush. the toilet the whole time. If you're wondering why I'm so obsessed with toilets, you go wear a diaper for nine months and see how happy you're going to be when you get to Mars

on chemical rocketry. Oh, yeah, that would suck. Ours has continuous acceleration. You continuously accelerate to the halfway point, you flip around 180 degrees, and you decelerate from there. At the midpoint, we're doing about a million miles an hour. We're only doing it for a few hours.

What? Well, because you're accelerating the whole way there at 0.38Gs. then after that you decelerate all the way at 0.38 Gs until you drop into, you don't go into orbit because orbits are so 20th century. You literally just drop into Mars. You just drop straight in.

And drop down. You're under thrust. You don't have to ever turn the thrusts up. Right. You never have to turn the engines off. Oh, okay. And Mars is only... That's why we had to do orbit stuff for the moon stuff.

That's right, because the Earth is pulling on you and you only had so much impulse. but when you can never have to turn the engines off and your engines can make, say, 0.39 Gs and the Mars surface is only pulling at you at 0.38, that means you go down slowly. And then when you get right down near the surface, you crank up the engines to match Mars's gravity pull,

and you just, you don't need landing lanes. You could just hover, but obviously you would land, get out, you know, go do whatever it is you're going to do. And from the moment you turned on the engines to the moment you are on Mars, you have the same gravity load on your body. So no more your bones starting to deteriorate. No more you're atrophying, your muscles.

Radiation. Well, you still have a lot of problems. You haven't solved any of the big problems. You still have cosmic rays. Only three days of exposure, not... You get three and a half days of exposure, not nine months. That's true. That's a big plus.

And if for some reason you think, well, that would require a nuclear reactor and they would have to have all this other stuff. the energy requirements to get to Mars are the same as your battery in your car could easily supply the energy to keep the engine running for the three and a half days it takes to get to Mars and you say well that's ridiculous but remember we're electrostatic it doesn't take that much to generate charge it takes a lot to generate current and B field but we're neither of those two things so once we have our static field formed, the unit, literally we can turn the power off.

Yeah, I know. It sounds crazy. These crazy guys are even crazier. But we could literally turn the power off and the engine stays on. And if you really want to hear the explanation of that, you get yourself some Exedrin and a stiff cup of coffee. And he can explain it to you. So, anyhow, moving on. This is a typical day from anywhere in the last 10 years. Okay. Dr. Charles is up at the board, giving out the very last theory ever.

There were old stuff here. Many, many of these. They were all wonderful. They were all wrong. Now we have them right. This is a very typical, we're getting ready to, we just built the thing. We're getting ready to test something. You know, this is the team.

This silly thing is what I have out on the web. If you go to our website and look at our webpage, I have a 45-minute dissertation on how to build that little piece of foam thing. I don't know where the camera is. And what is this foam thing? This is a thruster. That is a thruster. If you build this, if you spend the $1.50

it takes to build this and the couple of hours, and by the way, the video is free, if you build this and you hang it from a string, you know, eight or 10 feet of string from your ceiling, and you do it the way we say to do it, you will be rewarded with this pulling itself through space. This, it's hanging on its string, obviously.

You know, it can't fly, it can't lift itself off. It only makes about a tenth of a millinuton. But that's enough to see it move. And we have videos of stuff like that. So we thought we'd bring you one so you could see it. That's incredible. That is a warp drive thruster. I know he hates it when I call it warp drive, but I love the term.

So any chance I get to call things warp drive, I do. So that's a, that's a cutaway of one of our thrusters. of one of our thrusters. And notice it has black RTV all around the outside because air is the enemy. So you have to seal as much air out of the system as possible. So why does it have to look like this? Why does it have to be this box

with all these little grooves cut into the center of it? Because the basic theory is that you have very small area on the tips of the grooves and very large area on the foil on the back of that. And the large area has a greater electrostatic pressure, pushing against it than the very small area of the tips of the fins. So it's a choice. Who's going to win? I push a million pounds against zero area or I push one pound against 10 inches of area. Okay. It doesn't matter how much you push on the little bitty guys. The area is virtually zero.

So the force is almost nothing. So the force going backwards is almost nothing, whereas the force going forwards is more than nothing. The force wins. The large area versus the electrostatic pressure wins. There's a few more subtleties to it than that. Okay. That's basically how it works. It's electrostatic pressure times area.

Okay. Or electrostatic force times area, which is electrostatic pressure. Right. So, um... Yep, that's pretty good explanation. I mean, that's basically what it is. So, so hypothetically, if you guys could scale this thing up, you know, times, times 10,000.

What would the vehicles look like that we would travel to Mars in? Anything you want them to look like. We don't need to be on the outsides of the spaceships. These can be sealed boxes in the middle of your ship. These could be on catamaranes. These could be, let's say you build a ship that looks like, because I shamelessly love Star Trek. No one's going to believe this, but this is the first warp drive spaceship in the history of history.

And you think, well, this is a little. model from the 70s of Star Trek, okay? One of the guys on our team is a master model builder, by the way. But we have, we put a tiny warp drive cell in here. Now this whole thing only made two and a half millinutons of thrust, but it was inside of a ship. And when you have an engine in a ship that's defining it as a ship under power. So this, although it didn't fly around the room or fly across space, was the first

warp drive ship ever in the history of history. But putting that aside because I'm probably the only guy that thinks that's cool. This is a box. Inside of a box, you put your people, some area, you put area for people and, you know, sandwiches and stuff. And then you put your engine anywhere else you need to to fill up the rest of the volume. Sadly, we are far more like a dirigible than we are like an airplane. Our engines are not very compact. They're large area devices.

So we'll probably have very large surface areas, but we're flying through space, so who cares? It'll be like a solar sail almost. We had a large surface area because we're a surface area phenomenon, really. You can stack our stuff up, or you can go big surface areas. If you have enough square meters of material at a high enough potential, then you have enough propulsion to go anywhere you want. Because you never have to turn the engines off. So you're constantly accelerating to go there.

So your ship probably won't look as cool as this. It might look like a pressurized sphere with a great big propulsion system out in front of it that pulls it along. A great big panel or something? Sure, like a solar sail. We don't need the sun. We don't need the photons coming from the sun to do the job. Right. To do the job.

But we are going to need something that you can put people inside of. something that you can put the hardware of the propulsion system in and attach the two with something. Cables, ropes, nacelles, something. Yeah. So it can be any shape-size, extra color you want it to be. Wow. Like that's one manifestation.

If we want to use area to maximize, or we could use volume. So you can imagine like a Borg cube. Like a what? A Borg, Star Trek, Borg cube. Uh-huh. You know, you can use volume to put the thrust in, too. It doesn't have to be area.

It can be volume also. It's just user's choice. So you could have a great big square in space or a great big sphere. Like a big box or a sphere or something like that. And you would put inside of that a bunch of these. Inside that, you would put layers of it. Again, this is the stuff we're playing around with here. There you go.

You found it. The board cube. Yeah, this is all from five to seven years ago, our stuff here. We have greatly simplified this. We now have, we now have propulsion cells that can lift their own weight. We are over unity. So if the propulsion cell, the material that the cell is made of, weighs a pound, we can make 1.8 pounds. So we can make more thrust than the thing takes to lift its own body weight.

So whatever's left over after one, that's what lifts the spaceship. Right. And we're over unity. We've been over unity for a while. We've been off chasing other nightmares. That seems like a big deal. It is a big deal. Yeah.

But there are other big deals in order to have your own little space drive company, you have to achieve all the other things that we know nothing about. Like becoming a company, becoming a brand, becoming something that someone believes. Okay, you almost believe us, but you'd be amazed how many people don't. I believe you. Okay. It doesn't matter how many times we've invited people in,

showed them the magic, showed them the hardware, showed them the physics, put the hardware in their hands. They just walk away, shaking their heads going, why did we waste our day here? Let's go get pizza. Every time. That's incredible. Not every time.

We have people that are interested. We have people that are investors. We have turned the corner now. But it took a while, longer than you think. But what's interesting about this field is that everyone has a different belief. And what that means is a different threshold for belief. is it what you see? Is it what you touch?

Is it a rotator? Is it a pendulum? Is it a spinner? Does it have to work in air? Does it have to work in vacuum? Does it have to work? Does it have to be stackable? Does it have to be, you know?

And every single person has a different requirement level. It's very odd. I mean, I don't know if you've ever asked that for the Wright brothers. Does your plane fly? They would look and they would see, oh, yeah, the plane flies. Imagine if they said, well, does it go under water? Does it go into space? Right.

Does it turn blue? You know, it's very odd. the questions and the requirements set that we've been tasked to deal with. And every one of them is a fair question to ask. It just takes a long time to answer all of them. So we have to limit, you know, our customer base, our investor base to stay focused, because it's just the two of us. We've got to stay focused.

Now, aren't there, aren't there laws? Isn't there some sort of like U.S. government patent law where like if you, if somebody comes up with some crazy patent or discovery or whatever, like it automatically default to the U.S. government or something like that. I remember Jesse Michaels telling me something like this. Not exactly. The U.S. government reserves the right to ruin your life. And it goes back to the theory behind patents. Patents are not for the guys inventing stuff. They're for country building. They're for nation building. So the nation that's going to give you

the so-called protection, they reserve the right to take it from you. We believe, there's no way to know for sure. But our purpose is, our policy. patent disappeared inside the patent office for three and a half years, our original one. And we were told eventually by the patent office that it got hung up in DOD review. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but that's what they told us. Then it got hung up in NASA review. And the only reason we know any of this is because there just aren't that many people on this planet who know how to read our patent and actually say, oh, no, this is ridiculous because this is why it's ridiculous. Yeah. Most of them work on our team.

The few that don't work on our team, they were contacted by the patent office so that they have somebody external reviewers review our patents. And they said, we can't because we work on the team that invented it. So after a while, the patent office gave up and they issued us our patent, which is wonderful. But we're running into the same problem now that we have our second patent out there. The patent office came back and they said, this is not possible. You are violating the laws of conservation and momentum.

And we've spent a few years explaining patiently to the patent office the laws of conservation and momentum and all the stuff that Dr. Charles was talking about. And, you know, hopefully they'll let our patent go the second time. We've already passed all the hurdles. They just, we got hung up on a little technical glitch because they said, no, this is impossible. so we're not going to issue patent on it.

Right. Okay, so we get affidavits, and we showed them people that have reproduced our work, and we showed them videos of people that reproduced our work, and a full description of the physics, down to levels that they don't even understand. And we hope we've satisfied them. And now it's a play, it's a waiting game. Now, that's the reality of the U.S. patent system. Now, what about the whole peer review process?

Have you guys initiated anything like that? No. We're going to. I won't let him. We're going to. Because, you know, this is fundamental physics. So you can't really patent that anyway. But the fundamental physics will be peer reviewed.

And really, we do need a nice description of the thrust itself, the experimental. So people can do it, how drew it up. But, you know, have it written down a nice paper so that scientists can verify it. And that's all. But peer review is this. Peer review is designed to shut down the flow of information. It's not designed. It'll help the scientists.

Well, yeah, I'm familiar with the origins of it. It'll take 20 years. It's the example that Charles used of the Wright brothers. They flew. Nobody peer reviewed their work, and they had a lot of it. They actually invented the wind tunnel. We're not letting our work. Nobody peer reviewed their work.

Yeah, we're not holding up our work on a peer review. Yeah. We're not holding it up. Right. It's a, you know, it's a parallel thing. Just, you know, for science. And that's it. It's not in line with what we're doing

that we're not waiting on it. I'm not waiting for the scientific community. I'll take them 20, 30 years to buy this. And I'm okay. At least. At least. And I'm okay with that. I understand how the process works.

Yeah, you guys. But I think what will happen, what I'm encouraged with is, as Drew made videos of how to build these things, and you can see they're not very complicated. You know, there's a bunch of us working on them. What's exciting. Is your holder?

Because I want to explain all this. Oh, you want to explain all this? But so this, you want to explain all this. So this. You want to explain all this. So this. So this. explain this guy too. But what's exciting is that

if he makes videos how to make him, this will go the way the lifters. If you're familiar with those. The lifters are something that came around in the 80s or 90s where you take a aluminum foil, you form it in the shape of a triangle. Oh, yes. Tangle with the lines on top. I have seen those.

And people thought they were fake and all that stuff. Until Pobby started to make them and their teachers would make them and students would make them and then they would work. And they were cool. They're cool. You know, lifting devices. to lift up a couple of feet off a table. Outstanding little corona thruster devices.

Ion wind thrusters. Eye on wind. So basically you're just taking the gas wind and you're accelerating it one way and moving the device the other way. It's a conservation momentum of gas movement. Not what we're doing, but certainly something people did not believe in

until they actually started building them. So this will probably fall along the same path. People start building them in the garage. I've had people come up to us and tell us they've done that. And, you know, just that would, that would be the way that this makes it to the mainstream. The scientific peer review process will take a couple of decades. You guys are doing everything you can. I mean, obviously you're explaining this soup to nuts on podcasts publicly,

trying to make this more publicly available for people and let it get out there. We want people to follow our patent, follow our videos, you know, come talk to us. The only thing that's stopping anybody from learning more and learning really deep is our NDAIR, non-disclosure agreement. You know, nobody comes in our shop that could walk away with the IP. And that's the only thing we ask. But once you pass the minimums of credibility, you come in and we'll stop. We'll show you everything we know how to do because you might have the next great idea. And I wanted to mention this.

how Charles and I are the core of the team, but we have a big team. There's probably eight or ten people on our team, and some people float in and float out over the years. It's all about the team, because nobody can do everything, and I've tried. I can't do electronics. I'm terrible at it, and I don't do computers because I hate them. Charles is not the greatest with mechanical tooling, but nobody can do what he does. Nobody can go up to that whiteboard and fill it full of square. and actually make it make sense. Okay?

Very few people can do what I do, which is, for example, go to the next one. This is just us playing around in our shop one day. I built that thing, everything you see there. What is that thing? That's a vacuum chamber. That's one of our small vacuum chambers.

Wow. And, you know, there's nothing special about a vacuum chamber, except that we can hit, you know, 10 to the minus 6 tour, which is hard vacuum. You put a lifter. What does that mean 10 to the minus 6 tour?

There are 760 millimeters of mercury in an atmosphere. That's what you would call it standard atmosphere. If you had a board on tube upside down, it would pull a vacuum at 760 millimeters high. That's the pressure of a standard atmosphere. If you pulled all the air out of that thing down to one millimeter, that means that you would have only one millimeter of atmospheric pressure in that thing. Got it. The pressure on Mars is about 7 millimeters of mercury-ish, between 5 and 7.

So if I was outside on Mars, the atmospheric pressure would be about five tour, seven tour, something like that. But a hundred times less. About a hundred times less. Okay. If I was on Venus, the atmospheric pressure would be 700 atmospheres. It's about a hundred times the atmospheric pressure of the Earth. Wow. But when you get into vacuum, you get down around one tour, a tenth of a tour.

Now you're into the Mila tour, a thousandth of a tour. Okay. the International Space Station buzzing around up at whatever it is, 250 miles or so, it's at about 10 to the minus 8 tours. The atmospheric pressure outside the station is about 10 to the minus 8 tours. The atmospheric pressure on the surface of the moon is about 10 to the minus 9. Atmospheric pressure on the back side of the moon is about 10 to the minus 10. These numbers don't mean anything, and it doesn't matter.

We can get down to space. We can pump down, we can put our test articles inside that box, inside that tube, pumped down to about the pressure of space. We were talking about lifters. Lifters are fun things. Everybody says, oh, you're just making eye on wind. Well, you put ion wind, you put a lifter in a vacuum, it stops making wind because there's no air to make the wind with.

So lifters don't work in a vacuum. Our system loves vacuum because we don't have the air, which tends to short out the high voltage plates. Vacuum is very friendly to our system. The harder the vacuum, the higher the voltage we can run. The higher the field we can run. Wow. The more thrusts we can make with the same hardware.

So we grew up loving vacuum because everybody said, oh, they're just ion winds. It's just a lifter. So we said, okay, what's going to take to prove it to you? And the first hurdle was, I put it in a vacuum chamber and it'll fail. We put it in a vacuum chamber. It worked better. Then the next hurdle was, well, now what do you want to see? Oh, now we want to see it spin around.

So we built spinners in the vacuum chamber. Then the next hurdle was, oh, we want to see it float. Okay, that's a tricky one. That's a real tricky one. So that's when we stopped listening to people saying, I want. And we started focusing on what we needed. So that's an example of a homegrown vacuum chamber. And of course, Dr. Charles is there to supervise.

Why is it so difficult to make it float? Well, let's say we have... We have the 1.7 Earth unity. So we can make something that can lift its weight and a little bit more. And a little bit more. But we... That mass is based on the actual thruster itself. It doesn't count for the mass of the framing, the power supply, the tape.

All the non-components that are doing nothing except holding it together and structure and all that. So it's like a car saying, I have enough horsepower to move my car, or move the engine, but not the car. Right. Not the tires. Right. You've got to start somewhere. So where we started with was the fact that we're not zero. Okay, so that was the unicorn. We birthed the unicorn.

Now people want the unicorn to get up on the table and dance. And then they want the unicorn to be wearing a certain color dress and dance. So everybody always wants the next cool thing because eventually everybody wants to see the Mattel hoverboard. Is this a spinner? That's a spinner. Wow, look at that. And that rotated around. In a vacuum.

In a vacuum. That's about five years ago, maybe, what year is that? It's been a while. 2020, I had six years ago. Very slowly. It's not fast. Very, very slowly. It took hours for it to rotate around.

One rotation was hours. Because the string has torsion in it. That thing just held up with a string. Right. And the string has torsion. So you're working against. the torsion in the string. Well, that whole thing only made about

two millanutons of thrust. Two milanutons of thrust on an 18-inch arm ain't that big. The sucker was heavy too back in. The whole thing weighed about two kilos, maybe two and a half kilos. And it was, oh, actually,

that one's probably on a pin. Yeah, that one doesn't have a string. That one has a thing at the bottom is just a plate, and there's probably a pin coming up from the bottom. So that whole thing is on a pin and jewel pivot. But either way, it, it, it, that's why we got rid of the torsion string and went to the pin and jewel. That's the only reason that thing spun. So as soon as we did this, they went to, oh, now we need to see it float. And, you know, we've been talking with

people for years and it always goes to the next level of, oh, now I want to see it do that, now I want to see it do that. Now I want to see it do that. Well, this is all self-funded back in the day. And, you know, this is after we put in a full work week. We're doing this. As I keep getting older, I'm starting to realize that life insurance is one of those things I should stop putting off. Nobody wants to think about worst case scenarios, but when your family relies on you, having this kind of coverage is the more responsible thing to do. And that's where ethos makes the process stupid simple.

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Danny. That's spelled eth-h-h-o-s-com slash d-a-n-n-y. Application times may vary and rates may vary. limiting factor that's holding you guys back that you could basically say if like if say it was money like if you had a limited amount of money would you guys be able to figure out how to make this thing flowed or is there like what what is the like the biggest common denominator that you think is it's the usual thing is just money and time money in time really is I mean you know I'll be leaving my NASA job soon to work this full time but it's always been a part-time thing he just left his job full-time to do this full-time for the first time 20 years. So time is going to be on our side. Then money so we can get other people to help us.

And what is the most, like, lowest hanging fruit as far as, like a practical application for this thing? I would say this right here is what he's showing you there are these small sat thrusters. This is an example of a cube set. Again, this is a cart. I can't see what's looking at them, but this is an example. You're looking at that camera. Oh, okay, this is an example of a cube set. And for those who don't know what a cubes had is. A cube's hat is a four inch by four inch by four inch cube and you stack them up. U1, U2, U3. This was a U3. So people have launched these for 15 years now. They put these up in great big boxes and they shoot them out one at a time.

And sometimes they have little tiny propulsion systems in them and sometimes they don't. And they're little tiny, tiny satellites. Again, this is a cartoon. This is not a real one. Right. Okay. our dream is to build something like this or get with a vendor who builds things like this. Is it roughly the same size?

It would be the exact same size. This is an exact copy of a U3 CubeSat. And then in this case, we propose to have this be the propulsion module. And the propulsion module would look something like this. Our propulsion mechanism would be inside of it. This is a cartoon again. There's nothing real here. I see.

And then this would mount. directly to the other half of the spacecraft. So that the things like cameras and solar cells and gyros and all the things that make up little tiny spacecraft, get a propulsion module. In this propulsion module would be enough propulsion to send this thing to Mars. And it would probably get there in a couple weeks. Whoa. I wouldn't say we'd have enough to get there in three and a half days.

which is in the future. And the propulsion module is about 50% of the entire size. In this case, it would be, in this case. In this case, we actually set it up to be 50%. Because, again, this is a cartoon. You know, it may be that this propulsion module could handle something the size of this table. But now you're talking about much slower getting to Mars. Certainly, we could climb out of the Earth's atmosphere.

We could climb out of the Earth's orbital gravity. So we could, once we get into space, you know, somebody's going to have to us a ride to space because these things don't lift their own body weight yet. So somebody's to give us a ride, we're in orbit, we're in low with orbit, and we turn on our little thrusters. And normally, thrusters are turned on and in a couple of months, little toy satellites make it up to whatever orbit they're supposed to be at, then they run out of fuel. Wow. That's just the, that's the, and that's the best you get. That's a little ion engines. I mean, every

one of the, pretty much every satellite out there does that. They start out in a real low orbit and then they slowly work their way up to a higher orbit and then they run out of fuel. This will never run out of fuel. This will never run out of fuel. So you never have to turn off the thruster. So it constantly is accelerating. You're constantly gaining altitude. Constantly.

At some point, about 12 or 13 hours later, you've left the Earth's gravity and you can go to the moon if you want to. But then you better start decelerating pretty quick because you're going to hit the moon at, you know, 200,000 miles an hour. So if you want to go to the moon, this little toy could take you to the moon. This little toy could take you to Mars, presuming all the other problems are solved. We don't have a deep sky network to communicate with our little toys. You know, we don't know how to fly to Mars.

You know, we're just guys getting into this. But right now, today, if you guys had a, if you can get a ride into low Earth orbit, that thing would. We would build a real one. And our propulsion system, which is, very much advanced from what you see on the screen, would have more than enough capability to do all the crazy things we say it can do. We don't have to invent anything else.

We have it. We just don't have the millions of dollars that it takes to get from cartoon to real life. Not that we're working on it. We work on it every day. That sounds incredible. 12 hours a day. But right now, we're trapped by the reality

of that work. I don't know about him, but I'm a poor boy. I don't have money. So he's got a pizza. Yeah. We have a joke running. It's the only place on Earth with pizza and warp drive. I'm sorry.

I just thought to put that in there because it was funny. Now, like, have you guys talked to like any high level, like space executives or like rocket people like maybe, like for example, Elon, maybe not on his level, but like somebody about this. and gotten any kind of feedback from them, positive or negative? We have.

You know, we are in contact. The well has been poisoned. You know. The well has been poisoned. So you're getting a lot, there's a lot of stigma attached to it or just a lot of skepticism? I think that, you know, like I was saying, there's a lot of levels to climb. There's a lot of hurdles to climb and there's a lot of minimum requirements. And there's different, you know, there's different use cases that we have to show.

So there's different thrusters that we have to show, different things that it needs to do. It's not a high hurdle, but at the end of that game, you're going to talk to the big wig, and then they'll decide our fate after that. We're not waiting for that. We're just waiting. We're working with potential customers for this little guy. They may have thousands of these, hundreds of these. So that is a good, it's a better ease in as you're starting a company to get a customer right away, which we already have, we think, we're trying. and then go from there.

Instead of, you know, the big dogs, they'll hear about us later. Yeah. I'm sure. Sure. I'm not worried about it. But if we get a small customer that work with us to get a space rated, space grade, all of that, and pay for all the heavy lifting, which is what some have offered to do. That's a much quicker route.

And I think we're going to do that. And we're going to do that in the short order. Yeah. Once you get somebody big on there, everyone will try to jump on the bandwagon, but the early adopters are probably the hardest ones to get going. So, so what? would be the, like to get this guy into space, I'm sure, like just civilians can't launch shit in space, right? You can. You can. You can buy a ride. You sure can. Really? Oh yeah. You could

this little bad boy here. So like the way I fly a DJI drone around, I can fly one of these in space? Not quite. Okay. What you can do is... I mean regulatory-wise. You can buy a ride and and they take care of all the regulatory. You could build one of these, excluding the propulsion system. The satellite alone costs you about 300,000 for the pieces parts. But the nice thing is, you can go out to

whatever it is, little satellite corp.com and buy a chassis and a gyro and a star tracking. You can buy all the pieces of the puzzle, and you can even get people to assemble them for you. And then you would integrate in whatever your special thing is. Let's say you wanted to do a thing that took pictures or some guys sent a cell phone up.

I saw that. It takes a picture of a... It takes a picture of a selfie or something. So you put your selfie on there and takes a picture of you in space with the stars. It's beautiful. My son loves that channel. What was that called? Mark Rober.

Mark Rober, that's what he was. And that's wonderful. But the satellite, 300,000, roughly. If it's about this big. If it's bigger, it goes up fast. You guys could build them and then you guys could rent them out. Yes, yes we could. To get this into space is anywhere from $300,000 to a million dollars, depending on your ride and what you want to, how long you want to wait and how far down the list you want to go.

And there are ways to do that cheaper, and there are ways to do that more expensively, but it's somewhere around $300,000. So between the cost of the build and the cost of the ride and the cost of the mission, because you've got to have communications. You've got to have somebody actually receiving your telemetry. There are people who offer that service now. That stuff was not even available before. It's a million dollars a pop. And generally, what you learn in the aerospace world and space world is you need two of everything

because the first one is usually going to fail. So you've got to build two of everything. So now you've got $2 million sitting on the shelf. and that's great. That's what you're going to launch. But then you've got to test everything. So you've got to build two more of them. We call them engineering demonstration units.

So you have to have your two engineering demonstration units. And they don't have to launch, but they have to get built. So there's another couple hundred thousand dollars. And then you have to run your testing operation. These tests are pretty exotic. Shake, rattle and roll, radio. T-back, E-I. There's a gauntlet of tests.

There's an enormous gauntlet of test that you have to pass before you are not a hazard to all the other people who've spent their hard-earned money to put their satellites into space. So you can launch your own satellites. You can. You got to buy a ride. You got to do all the minimums. You've got to play by the game because you can't buy your own rocket. If you can, that's even better, but nobody can buy their own rockets. So that's the world we're in is we're looking to team up with someone who wants to test out the first propulsion system that never has to be turned off on a satellite they're willing to risk it on. It's kind of crazy to me that, you know, there haven't been any big aerospace companies that have

approached you guys and tried to contract, like, or even something like DARPA or something crazy. There have been. We're going to talk to them. So, you know, I don't want to give out who all these people are. Right. But that process is ongoing. It started. So we're excited about it. It's not just, You know, we're not, you know. What do you guys think? What do you guys think of when you see, you know, and you hear of all these reports of like these crazy things flying around in the atmosphere and like the pilots talk about and all that stuff?

Was that kind of like what inspired this stuff? Or like when you think of all the work in the time you put into creating this thing and you see stuff like that, what do you think? Damn it. Do you think it's all fake? Or do you think? Oh, I don't, I don't know. Maybe it uses this force.

Maybe it doesn't. I don't really know what it is. Yeah. I don't know what it is either. Do you think that there are human beings on this earth who have figured out something like this on super steroids times a million that you can put a human in and fucking zip around the sky? I honestly don't know. Is that possible or is it impossible? Like I'm saying like hypothetical, yeah, you got a gun into your head.

Yes is. Yes, they figured it out. No, they haven't figured it out. I believe it's possible they have. Yeah. I just don't see any evidence of it. Right. I mean, it took us a long time.

Even as simple as this theoretically is just to get there and to develop this and to continue to develop it. I mean, the amount of work and hours to get to this is ridiculous. Propulsion is not the only thing you need to be able to do what we see on these. I guess you're referring to the TikTok videos, stuff like that. Yeah, like the TikTok videos, things like that. And I promise him I wouldn't mention it, but I'm going to anyhow. I'm part of a group of, I call them crazy people because we are all crazy. It's an alternate propulsion engineering conference.

Oh, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of smart guys that are a part of that conference. Brilliant people in APEC. And there are crazy people in APEC. And there's no reason you can't be brilliant and crazy, which is how they define me somehow. But there are groups, there are guys that. that group and gals too because very brilliant some of the people in that group are female and they're very brilliant um their dream is to pick one of the things that keeps you from being able

to do the crazy things you see on the videos one of them is um i want to go to the left at 500 gs or a thousand gs you know or whatever it's sea level to 80 000 feet in a second yeah okay that's 10 000 gs you know 10 000 g is a due to your body you would be a smear on the back bulkhead. Okay? 10,000 Gs, you could put anything, a piece of metal and subject it to 10,000 Gs and it'll crush it. So obviously if the videos are real and you're doing 10,000 Gs,

somebody somewhere somehow has figured out a way to reduce your static inertia, such that for those moments that you're doing the high G forces, you're not subject to the inertial loads. Right. One of the guys on the team has a machine that makes my vacuum system look silly. And he's reporting that he has lowered the inertial. So he can move his test article and it isn't subjected to inertia.

So he has reduced its inertial component by a small fraction. with whatever magic he's working on. I truly don't understand it. But he's working on it. And someday he might get to where he can take 100% of the inertia out along one plane or two planes or three planes. So then he could accelerate his test article at 100 Gs, and the test article wouldn't feel the inertia.

But that doesn't mean he has any way. Let's see, he does it. He doesn't have any way to make it. He doesn't have any way to make his test article move. He would want somebody that has a propulsion system like I have. I don't have any way to keep my people from being smeared on the back bulkhead. This is the crazy thing about science too is because most science in the academic sense is very stove piped, meaning like it's not very interdisciplinary.

People work in single lanes and they don't only talk to people in their own lane. They don't communicate outside. That's why we're part of the, I, to call them crazy people, but they're brilliant. Yeah. And we get together once or twice a month, and it's open for them. Anybody can talk, anybody can present, anybody can ask questions. And if you have some answers, anybody's welcome to give answers.

And we kick all kinds of ideas around and stuff. But it's basically focused on propulsion. That's what this conference is focused on, which is good for me because that's all I care about. So when you say 10,000 Gs, like, for example, the way that like Dave Fraver described, the way that tick-tacked move. You're saying for it to make these hard turns and to go from sea level to whatever it was,

80,000 feet in a second, that would be that, roughly that kind of geez. So a human being wouldn't survive that if it was in traditional space time. But would the materials that we know of even survive that? Like we don't have any materials on Earth. I don't believe we have anything that could survive those kind of Gs.

No types of metal alloys terrestrially that would survive those kinds of G. It looks far too much. stress on the whole. I look at those observables, four observables they have. Obviously, propulsion is one of them, inertia is another. Going through objects, flying through objects, you know, going through mountains and these things through underwater without even seeing the water without even experiencing any of that. How would you, yeah, how would, what does that mean? You have to be in a place or a time that the water.

isn't. Yeah. So I don't know how they're doing it, but you would have to be where the water isn't. Quantum mechanical can possibly allow that. You know, everything has, you know, all the atoms in our body and molecules and all that have a certain quantum state. And if you change that quantum state, if you can do it, you can add another perhaps quantum number.

If you add another quantum number, you're no longer in the other quantum state that the rest of the universe is in. you might just be able to pass right through it. So there are poly-exclusionary principles and quantum mechanics, very, very ad hoc, very, you know, weird theories out there that people can do experiments on to show that, you know, we know how the poly exclusionary principle works. If you were able to change the quantum state of something,

you could go through these mountains and water, oceans, whatever. I don't think humans, you asked earlier, you know, do we have this somewhere if someone's got it in a mountain somewhere and they're doing all this. This is thousands of years ahead of us. Who is? This technology that we're talking about. That we're seeing. Yeah. And this is far ahead of us. Like, not even, you know, the textbooks will kind of grew over this. Like, even our forces so awesome. It's going to be a thousand years before you get strong enough to do these crazy things.

What your buddy's doing with the inertia, he's, he's a long way from that. I can't imagine there's one guy, one set of eyes that have all this figured out in some mountain somewhere. You know, that's just kind of like hard. Hard to believe because this is so far ahead. Have you met anybody ever who is more adept or proficient in this field of electrostatics than you are? I have a lot of colleagues that are in this field. There's not a lot of us that work on propulsion, but there's a lot of electrostatics colleagues in mine. Right, right.

I just think that, you know, coming from someone like you who is like one of the top people in this doing this work at like a place like NASA, and you saying that this is that stuff is thousands of years ahead. It's crazy because, I mean, I've heard stories of people who have done research on places like DARPA and talk about the technology that they've been working on. They say that usually they're like 20 years ahead of anything that you see in the public sphere or like in the commercial sphere, right? So like a thousand.

I mean, that's insane. I mean, that's how I personally feel. You're talking about quantum mechanics we've had since the 1920s. There's been no advancement in that. poly exclusion principle to go phase through a matter and go through a table without touching it. You know, it's maybe possible, but you're talking centuries ahead of us from now. And this inertia, these right angle terms, and you can tell that the ship is not even stressed by any of these things. It's actually colder in some of these videos.

So there's a lot more going on in those things. Well, so I just don't have the famous. My first introduction to all of this stuff was the Bob Lazar story. And I know you talked to Bob Bazaar with Jesse Michaels. Yeah. And he described it in a way that I completely understood it. He, and I don't know like mathematically how it works, but I understand like generally how it works.

He was saying that there was this basketball size reactor that basically when you turned it on, it was like you couldn't touch it. And the way he described that the alleged crafts that he worked on moved was they sort of like, like the way I would drop something. like that, it would move horizontally to the earth or perpendicular to the earth as if it was falling. And he even said that they would fly belly first. So like if it if it somehow bent gravity or space time around it, it could theoretically like fall in whatever direction it goes, meaning that there's this sort of like bubble around you that's protecting you from

inertia or whatever. I don't know what I'm looking for here, but whatever. Maybe. Maybe. That's That's bending of space time. I'd love to see that. We don't have a quantum theory for that either. You know, the bending of space time. How would you do it? How would you build that in the lab? Right.

Element 115. Sure. I just don't know how you would do it. I have my hands full 100 hours a week. Has anyone ever asked him to break it down? Does he even understand how that works? Or is that just too perplexing for him to? You know, in the 80s, he talked about the gravity waves stuff.

Yeah. Right. Gravitational waves being created from the element 115. and they would go down those tubes and go into the gravity wave amplifiers on the ship. And at the time, I didn't really believe a lot of that. Yeah.

I mean, it's just, you know, I just couldn't make sense of it. I was a kid, young, and just, that was kind of the, at the time that was like the hottest topic, gravity waves, hot topic. Yeah. Richard Feynman got on to the science community about gravity waves. Can they do work? He wanted to know.

There wasn't anyone working on that field. So I think, you know, he picked, up on the gravity. Maybe that's what it was, gravity waves. But more recently, I think he's more open to the possibility of maybe not being gravity waves that are other, something else. Oh, really? Something else entirely. So, so. Like more in line with what you guys are doing. It's possible. It's just another force. It can't do all the fancy things you're talking about, betting space time or anything else, but it could be a force. We haven't explored a lot of, you know,

facets of our force. You know, we're brand new with this. We're like a kid in a candy store. We have a new shiny car. We're going to test it. We've got to take it out for a test drive to check it out. But it's possible because the element 115 theoretically is a very high melting point material, higher than anything we have theoretically. You know, we've gotten very close to that. So theoretically, it has a very high melting point. That's a very advantage, you know, has a very huge advantage. Mm-hmm. And I talked about this at APEC, a few years back, but you know, my thought was, like, that's interesting.

And I showed the design that Bob Lizarre put on his napkin. Yeah, the sports model or whatever. Of the sports model internals, which he didn't show before. I never seen it. And I looked at that, and I said, that looks like a transmitter. I showed my wife who's at NASA. She's in the EMI group.

And she's like, yeah, it does look like a transmitter. I said, maybe that's an electromagnetic transmitter. So, you know, Bob drew the waveguides, which are basically ways to trap electromagnetic light, you know, whatever frequency that would be probably gigahertz or tearhertz or something like that. And like this is a, this is an electromagnetic source possibly. And then they had going to the gravity wave amplifiers.

Now, that doesn't mean anything 20 years ago. But in today's light, well, the gravity wave amplifier, the spaceship would always move in the direction of the amplifier. Just like our propulsion always moves in the direction of the of the thrust. like our forces are in the direction of the thrust. It's like it was pushing. They're pulling on it, if you will. Not in the opposite direction.

Not in the opposite direction. So usually you have a rocky. You have exhaust going one way, and the rock goes the other way. This goes the same. So it's weird. And his, his gravity wave amplifiers would turn a certain direction. The ship would go in that direction.

So we'd go with it. Yeah. So I'm like, okay, it could be an electromagnetic thing. And if it is, that's pretty exciting because that's basically in line where Drew and I are starting to scratch the surface on. Right. You know, basically, you know, we're probably years away from something that exotic,

but that could be something like that. It looks at least it falls within something that humans can probably test and understand long before gravity waves. I hope you guys have good security around your lab. Someone will come in and steal our star phone. There's too many missing scientists popping up. We have the best security possible.

Nobody believes us. Our next door neighbors don't believe us. They just shake their head and say, what a waste. So much potential. And then they move on and go do whatever they're going to do. Yeah. Well, you have, you know, just so many stories of like those scientists that go missing.

And then you even had that that lady, that Ning Lee lady who discovered that, the conductor, the super conductor or whatever that spun. It did something crazy, right? And then she actually, it got peer reviewed. And she got a contract with the DOD, I think. And then she just like vanished. and people think that like the Chinese basically rendered her back to China to do some work for them or something maybe? That's probably the most likely.

Yeah. Possible. There are some people in the APEC group who have been in that world for 25 plus years. And they have a lot of historical knowledge and they know some of these people. So we're hearing that statistically it's just it's not a thing. Some of these people were perhaps not fully stable. Some of these people were being lumped together in groups that don't belong together. So, you know, because we talk about this?

From that community, which I would think they would be the experts. We talk about this regularly. And about the whole phenomenon of the scientists missing. Like there's 10 or 20 of these people. Oh, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. A lot of them, a lot of them. Yeah.

But there's a handful, there's a few of them that are like the general, the McAastlin, That one was very odd. So we, you know, we're not taking any extraordinary precautions. Yeah. You know, we're a small business, and we have the precautions that a small business requires. And basically nobody believes us, really, nobody. Not even our, our wives barely believe us. My wife.

And his wife can explain the physics better than he can, and she barely believes us. That's funny. Right. If some men in black showed up at your laboratory and they said, hey, guys, you're going to come work for us now. And you're going to work underground. You're going to kiss your public life goodbye. But we're going to show you what's really going on. What would you do? Yeah. Really? I'm gone.

Gone gone. Wow. I don't care where. I don't care if that thing's under the ocean. Yeah. I used to think the same thing. Like, you know, you know, I'm gone gone. I don't care if that thing's under the ocean. Yeah. I used to think the same thing. Like, you know, you know. But on the other hand, the more I think about it, I'm like, maybe I really don't want to know the truth, you know, about what wrote all this stuff really is because I don't know what kind of baggage that comes with, you know, because there's so many different people, you know, there's so many different stories around this stuff. And, you know, it's just, it's, it's really hard to like keep one coherent sort of view on this kind of stuff because it's so intertwined with all the UFO stuff, you know. And there's so many UFO stories. And it's hard to, it's hard to pick the wheat from the chaff. You know, it's just like the zone has been flooded with so much crazy stuff.

And within those, that big cauldron of craziness, there's a lot of real stuff. There has to be a lot of real stuff. So we're really not. And a lot of that stuff comes with like, you know, remote controlling stuff with your consciousness. You know, and I have a, I know a lot of really smart people, including Jesse Michaels, who's been studying this stuff forever, who's talked to all. the most brilliant people on earth when it comes to this stuff, including you. I don't know if you've talked to him, but like he thinks that that is a potential thing.

And he's talked to people that have worked in like, you know, aerospace companies or have been, there's one guy he talked to who is a country, he works for, for, I think, NASA or SpaceX. And he is the guy who like oversees all the launches or whatever. And this guy works in the Huntsville, Alabama location. And, you know, apparently like really high level as far as rocketry. And he's been, you know, he also, I think he had a friend on the Challenger shuttle mission. And, you know, this guy is of the belief that it's the same thing. So I don't know.

It's just, it's too confusing for me to navigate. I got to tell you, we're so far down the food chain. that's the beauty of nobody nobody believes us is we just do our thing we publish our results to our friends and to our potential customers

and we just keep moving forward that's our goal our goal is to listen to the madness and enjoy the stories if that's what they are read the headlines you know I look forward to the launches you know I've seen most of them

for the last 50 years. I live within 30 miles of where I grew up. So it's everything we can do to move our little piece of the story forward. I had a friend who was out fishing the other day and he saw that shuttle explode. That blue origin one or the rocket. Yeah. That was unfortunate. Shicked my house.

Yes. I have. What was that one doing? That one was sending satellites? Static fire. It was just static fire in the engine. That's why your job so important. You're getting ready to...

Not an electric static fire. Oh. Static means it's static not moving. They hold the rocket down. They bolt the rocket down. And then they shoot the engines. They fire the engines. I see it mean.

Satic fire test. Electro static fire would have been Apollo 1, right? No, no. Apollo 1 was just a fire. Just a regular fire. Apollo 1 happened because certain people did not understand the theory behind absolute pressure or gauge pressure. they thought they were the same thing so Apollo 1 was it wasn't an error

it was an act of stupid well it was an act of stupid most of the time when you end up killing your crew is an act of stupid because the hardware has been they've beaten the hardware to where it can handle the loads

but then you do something stupid and the hardware can't handle it no more so it's very sad yeah Yeah, it was tragic. And the guy Gus Grissom, like, famously hung a lemon over the shuttle or whatever. Just because he thought that the equipment was, I mean, obviously he had a good reason to believe that the equipment was not up to par. It's very difficult. I believe it was Mr. Musk that said that rockets are hard. Rocketry is hard. And he's not kidding.

Right. You know, and he's spent enough money to find out how difficult it is. And, you know, through sheer perseverance and the incredible engineering effort of his team, they just move forward. They move forward faster than we do. Okay. We move forward fast. I mean, we test once or twice a week, three times a week, sometimes four. And we have iterations twice a week sometimes.

Those guys are moving light years faster than we are. They also have unlimited budgets. They also have a far larger team. They have a much narrower scope of what they're trying to do. Right. And people have built rockets before. You know, and I don't think anyone's built what we're building before.

If they have, I'd really like to talk to them. Yeah, I mean, you know, if we don't want to be mixed in with the, you know, with the alien crowd and all that. This is just another discovery in physics, I think. and um well how could you be into this stuff and not love the aliens oh yeah you do love it i mean you just like to hear the stories and you know watch the movies you know and i told jesse it's great fun

and you know i i've you know i've you know i've experienced some of these clairvoyance things myself because you can do it yeah oh yeah absolutely it's you know i like anything in in the world you have to believe it to believe it you have to test it yourself don't just take someone's word for it just try it out like telepathy very real you have to you have to to track, you have to practice it. Clairvoince, there's books and tell you how to do it. I was a kid, I was all into that stuff. Just draw something on a paper, have someone else draw something and you figure out what it is without looking at it and just draw what you think it is. If they concentrate on it real hard enough and you read their mind and all that, you'll

see what they see. It's not too complicated. It's not too hard. Just have to do it. Telepathy is the same way. Do that experience with my kids a lot. You know, think of something you know what I'm saying? They just think of something. You know, just all the time. Like, what number you're thinking of? Yeah. Just practice it.

You practice it. You get good at it. I have no idea how it works. But it's also interesting that, you know, Edgar Mitchell got really into that stuff. Yeah. It's a different phenomenon. There's a lot of things that,

and I tell the students this and, you know, I gave a talk of the Electrostatic Society of America, which I'm now the president of. And I told that the young folks in there, there's a, there's a lot. left to be discovered. You know, everyone thinks everything's done. Everything's discovered. And that's not true. You know, it's the 21st century, but there's still discoveries to be made. You know, I discovered what three or four different phenomena in electrostatics. This propulsion is just

one of them. But it's, it's, we're still very young species. There's a lot more to, to learn. And, you know, don't, don't think science is done. It's not. Right. And it's an exciting world we live in. I think it's very exciting world. Personally, I think it's really exciting. I think it's more exciting as we get further long here. I think there's a lot more to it than just like the nuts and bolts physical react, like the physical elements of stuff, right? I think there's, you know, just studying the history of NASA. Like those do, you know, El Ron Hubbard was best friends with freaking Jack Parsons doing all kinds of crazy seances and witchcraft and these guys were in all kinds of wacky stuff. you know like how how and you know and a nazi so you have like the three craziest you know types of

people you could imagine coming together and and and forming NASA like they were it seems like there was way more to this rocketry stuff than just but when all was said and done they were crazy on their own time they were working with Robert Goddard's liquid fuel engine during their daytime. So they were doing real engineering, real rocket science during the daytime. They made it crazy, you know, let's go get a beer and do a seance or whatever. I don't know. But during the daytime, they were learning how to build a nozzle that expanded the gas that they were generating in the powerhead. They were learning how to pump fuel where they were going to go. they were they they they they they they they they don't know that they were doing those squiggles but um

but they were doing rocket engineering based on what was known at the time and they actually didn't know it but so was a young von brawn over in germany doing basically the same studies that they were doing and he had he had a different funding source um so yeah you can you You can put as much of the seance stuff in there as you want, but if you're not based in the physics and in the engineering of your day, you're just, you know, you're guessing. We build hardware. We build hardware that works. We build hardware that can be tested, reproduced, and gets the job done.

And the job for us is we want to put the chemical rocketry people out of jobs. We want to replace chemical rocketry. That's the other thing I wanted to ask you is do you think there's sort of like a built-in conflict of interest with people who would potentially invest in this stuff because those people could also be invested in other huge rocket companies, energy companies, oil companies, that kind of thing. And there could be, do you think that's possible? There could be, you know, a huge effort to shove this stuff underground or keep it buried so that, you know, people can. and continue making trillions of dollars. And the whole world economy is based on oil. And if this stuff becomes...

If this gets advanced enough and people can power their jet skis with it, you know, that could disrupt the entire world. The reality of it is it takes 20 to 30 years for any technology to be accepted by the civilization. That's just the reality. The phone, electricity, running water, indoor bathrooms. These things didn't...

Somebody showed the cell phone. It was 25 years before anybody had real cell phones. That's how long it takes. It takes a while for the civilization to accept it. Right now, the civilization around us is very happy with what they have. They have chemical rocketry to get you off the ground. They have ion rocketry, which is an electrically enhanced chemical rocketry, to get you into orbit and keep you there.

They're all very happy, by the way. There's nobody that hates the... situation of space right now. Nobody goes, I'm not going to put up this fleet of satellites because I have to deal with chemical rocketry. I have to deal with ion rockets or ion engines. And it's just such a bother. I'm not going to do it. Nobody's saying that. They're saying, okay, it costs X amount of dollars to do this. It costs X amount of dollars to do that. We're going to make X amount of we're going to charge people more for their cell phone service or whatever. We're coming into it with, hey, we can offer you a better product at the same cost,

but this product has so much more potential that you're going to find new ways to make money. But it's still going to take 10, 15, 20 years before anybody, if we were accepted tomorrow, it'd be 20 years before we have integrated into. to the current ethos of making money in space. Right. Before we're a serious player. That's the reality of where we are in the big picture. I think this would be hard to keep under a lid.

You know, it's out now. You know, this force, it's out there. People can look at it. People can build it. People can test it. It'd be tough to put a lid on it. Can it solve the energy crisis? Who knows?

You know, can it can do all these magical things that we promise, you know, lifting cars and replacing rockets? We hope so. This might be a really dumb question. But what about like propelling stuff in the ocean? It's even tougher. Even tougher. Yeah, you got a big force of drag there. 600 times the density.

If you could find something that was a little floaty, maybe you're like neutral buoyancy. Sure. Maybe it be. You have X amount of pounds of force. A propeller, a propeller or I guess that's a thrust or underwater, whether it's electric or mechanical, all it does is produce force. You're pushing the water behind you to push the boat forward. So let's say you make 100 pounds of force with your propeller for whatever reason, whatever shape or size you are. Underwater on the surface, you know, on a hydrofoil above it.

You've got 100 pounds of force from your propulsion system. your propeller is interacting with the water and giving you 100 pounds of net force well that's like putting a box with 100 pounds of net force in the middle of your boat and saying what can you do with it whatever you can do with 100 pounds of our force you could do with 100 pounds from a propeller

you just don't have to stick anything in the water right so can it move a boat sure if you've got in the force can it move an airplane sure if you've got a force can it lift an airplane up sure if you've got enough propulsion to offset the weight of the airplane. It's a new force. You do what you want with it.

Right. Use it to spin a turbine, windmill for energy. You can do anything you want with this new force. Right. And you guys have done over 2,000 different experiments of us. Yeah, we showed you a couple. About 2,500 probably. Well, it was 2,500.

Easily. Easily. Do you want to talk to this guy? Oh, yeah. Some of this stuff was amazing. Like, we would go to lunch every once in a while, and we would beg Janessa to come with us because she's way smarter than Charles.

My wife. And, you know, she would kick out ideas, and we would write them down because that's, you know. And we got really excited when Charles figured out that it was the asymmetry of the system that made it work. I mean, we got super excited because nobody had ever had this thought. And we're like, awesome, look at this. And then, you know, this took hundreds of experiments to get to the point where he had enough data to where he could process in his mind what the data meant.

So it took hundreds of these, we called them Pac-Man's because they were little, little curved things. They were cute little Pac-Man-looking things. But we, and we burn them up. We'd light them on fire. we just do a lot of very bad things. Get very electrocuted, very shocked. But the net result was he turned that idea, all that synthesized data into a revelation.

And once we had that direction, once we heard, once we had it in our heads that it was the asymmetry, we just optimized the asymmetry. How many ways are they optimized asymmetry? Okay, well, you could build one side bigger than the other. You could build one side different than the other. You could crank up the voltage on one side and reduce it on the other. So there's a few knobs, if you will, a few tricks of the trade.

And then once we had that, we were off to the races. So that's the sort of, that's the sort of, you know, our stuff isn't linear. We don't go in and say test, test, test, test, test. Okay, and then we move 1% in the right direction. We'll go days or weeks down the wrong rabbit hole. And it's interesting. And like Edison, we know 10,000 ways how not to build a light bulb. Well, we have about 3,000, 3,500 ways how not to build a thruster.

How many different people are you guys, like, bringing in to, like, look at what you're doing and throw out ideas just to get, like, new perspectives on things? Well, we've had chemical engineers help us with some of that route, the chemistry route. Neither one of us are chemists. We have material scientists, physicists, modeling. We did some of that optimization. Some of that's in the patent, too. So different ideas, we can get them from optimization from the programs, the computer. Or, you know, people do have all kinds of ideas.

Try this, try that. Try this. You know. Right. And we can try things as we go if we wish, you know, that's the right direction. But, you know, we've gotten to the point where we know what works and kind of know what doesn't work. And so we might be past some of the traditional try this, try that, try this for these DC version of thrusters. But there's other classes of thrusters that we are going into that are going to be more complicated in the future.

That we'll have to go back to the well and say, okay, how do. we get the most out of this. It's something we're not familiar with. Whether it's a voltage waveform or a material type or some kind of permittivity or something that's new that we're going to keep adding to it, we'll go find those experts for those skill sets to make the thrusters.

And we know a bunch of folks in a variety of different fields. So it depends on what it is. Right. So that's the beauty of this. I mean, it seems to be working. So why not try something more elaborate, more expensive, and with a better benefit in the end, now that we know that the base cases are working.

So we will find those folks if we don't already have them. But do we just bring like a video showing it, showing it creating the thrust or do you have a video that we can show that one that was earlier? It's on a, you have like on a scale, right? And it shows you like the weight changing. Oh, you want to just, he's talking about the, he's not talking about the or whatever, something like that. I don't know.

We can show you. We can show you of it spinning. I don't know. This is a joke. And of course, it's based on an old, an old, interesting thing. You know, $350,000 for a lab. Yeah. You know, $8,000 in lost time for a bunch of, you know, engineers.

$302 for the wings in the, in the, in the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, and the, you know, look on the new guys' face. There's no sane people in the room. Priceless. Okay. You have no idea how many really smart guys have floated in and out over the years and just gone. You people are mad. And then went back to their lives and had great lives. While we have had our lives.

So, and this is a couple of those guys are serious team members. And everybody wants to, everybody wants the dream. They all want to help make the dream go forwards, but they're all specialized in their little tiny fields. Like one guy there, a couple people there in NASA, is one guy's an electrical engineer, another guy's a prototyping engineer, another guy's a business interface engineer, or business, he used to be a mechanical engineer. And another guy came from a background of prototyping and building human-rated bicycles. The bicycles that can go like 100 miles an hour, little bicycle stuff.

So our team has had the benefit of genius over the years. And it's gotten us to where we are now. As far as new people coming in, it's gotten a lot more specialized now that we have a target. Right. For example, this is a... Target meaning this thing, right? Well, yeah. We have potential customers and customers want what they want.

Right. So we're targeting for the customer interface. For example, this is the thruster on a, basically it's on a stick, and it's just balanced by the weight of the battery and stuff. Where's the thruster? It's underneath that white plastic. Originally, it was just on the end of the stick. Then the guy, actually Charles's mentor, said,

put some plastic around it because it could be ion wind. We did. Then we put it in a plastic bag. Then we put a plastic bag over the plastic bag. In time we got done, we had like six plastic bags on the end of the, this stupid thing. And it still made thrust. And he was like, I don't know how this is working. Yeah. And in, and, and, and, and, and, I've known over 25 years. Really? Master electrostatics. Yeah.

Professor. I said, sit. I told you. So that's the kind of people we have on our team is people that come in and say, this isn't real. And then, okay, well, what, what can we do to make it real for you? And then they give us what they want. I want to see it put in a bag. I want to see you put it in vacuum. And we do all of these things. and it passes their test and then they shake their head and they go, wow, this thing could be real.

And then they go off and, you know, go back to their normal lives. And we take what we've learned from them and move forwards. Right. So this is a carousel, a vertical hanging carousel, I guess you would call it.

So it's balanced. You can't see the other half of it, but basically on the bottom half you have a pack of thrusters. On the top half, you have a pack of thrusters, which you can't see. and then the middle is a power supply

or Bluetooth. We talked to it through the vacuum chambers. So this is a high vacuum test of a thruster pack and it's surrounded in a plastic Faraday cage, which is on the left. You can see the ITO, the Indian tin oxide plastic. Yep. And then we turned it on and you can see it, you know, rotate. So it's showing motion in vacuum.

Right. Which is very difficult to do. And you can, you can figure out how much it weighs. Yeah, here it is. This is it without any plastic bags on it. Well, that's moving pretty fast. No, no, it is sped up. Oh, okay.

These are very slow things. Okay. But again, that whole thing is just another one of these white foam things. Yeah, it's styrofoam. Okay. The whole thing only makes about 125 micronutons. Now it's going the other way. It's because of the torsion in the string.

Oh, okay. You go as far as you can go and you cut the power and it has to unwind the string. Right. And then it'll go and it'll come to a stopping point. And you turn it on again and it winds the string back out. That's wild. Somebody said, well, it's not real unless it can do that. How sped up is this?

2x, 3x? This was a long video so we constricted it. That's why we sped it up. 10x. 10x. Probably 10x. I don't know. Yeah, it's sped up.

This took maybe three minutes, four minutes to do this. Yeah, it took about four or five minutes to go around in a circle. Okay. And the video is how long, roughly. So that'll give us an idea of how fast it's sped out. No. It's not clicking on me. I don't know.

No worry. I'm guessing it's somewhere between 5 and 10x. There we go. So this section of it's been a minute. Okay. Okay. But we have lots of videos like this. And this one's real time.

This one's not sped up. This is the same. So this is a thruster with plastic bags on it. It moves almost the same speed. This is a couple of years later. So this is a bit newer than the last one. And then we said, okay, well, we've done about all we can do in open air. Yeah.

So now let's go. What's the next thing? He walks right by it. So you would think all the wind from him walking right by would just stop this thing in its tracks and move it the other way. It didn't even efface it. That's pretty insane. Did you see that? Did you see that little subtlety?

We've tried different power supplies. Here it is. It's coming this way. So it's going counterclockwise. Drew walks right past it. Now, what could, like, the world's most vicious skeptic say about this? Now, how can, what holes could they poke in that? Normally, any kind of thruster that you would do, electric only, the first.

first thing they'd say, well, you're interacting with the Earth's magnetic field. So, and that can happen. But not for an electrostatic thruster, not for one that doesn't have current. So if you could do the current, calculate whatever current you need to, you know, to charge the plates. It's tiny. And the magnetic field that you get from that is infinitesimal. So you can't interact with the Earth's magnetic field with our magnetic field because it's so small. Plus it goes around a full circle, so it doesn't matter anyway.

And then we put a super magnet, one of these little. So that's one of these super, super little magnets underneath it, and it just goes right over the top. So there's no ferromagnetic material. There's a list of skeptical things. Wow. So the Earth's magnetic field is one of them, the ion wind, which we talked about. You've addressed both of those.

Well, there's half a dozen of them. There's many of them. So you have an ion wind, which is basically you're charging the air, and the air is accelerating. So we put everything in styrofoam or plastic or RTV or epoxy, and then cover that in bags if we need to, for the demonstration purposes. Our test articles, we don't always go to that rigor unless it's a demonstration.

Our test articles, we're finding up with the ITO, Faraday Shields. So we make sure all of that's intact. So you want a Faraday Shield that, you want to encapsulate it, you want to keep it away from something. You do not want any coolum attraction near anything, so you don't have any cabinets or tables or chairs feed away. So there's no force of attraction. And then you can see it go around the room. So if there is a cabinet that's attracted to, which is probability. less than a fraction of a percent,

it still moves past it and keeps going. Right. Probability is now zero. So there's so many, there's so many facets to this that, you know, we've addressed every issue multiple times over in multiple configurations,

as many as we can come up with. So the very last thing, you know, we should do and we have to do is just put it in space. That's it. That's the last hurdle. Put it in space and see what it does. Couldn't you do this?

Doesn't NASA have like space chambers? you can use. He's got one here. This is what they would have at NASA. These are high vacuum chambers. I mean like a huge one, like the size of this room. Yes. So that could be another thing. Some of the aerospace companies that we're going to test this forest don't go down high enough vacuum for the large, large ones. It's basically a belief system. They do? Also, I have a chamber that you could put this desk inside of. Oh, do you really? At our facility. Yeah. So that is another thing we could do. Get that sucker up online. That's a very expensive. chamber. So that is another thing. How do you set it up once it's in the chamber? You probably have to do something like this where you put a framework around it and you cover it in a box.

I'm a professional aerospace engineer. I built ground support equipment for 40 years. I'm really good at that. Whatever test he needs run, I dream it up. All the hardware, then build it, then run the test, and then have him come and deep and take shots, tape, you know, pot shots at what could be wrong? Why could that have done that? I could run this. Flip it backwards. Flip it 180. Return it 90 degrees. So.

Do it in other chambers. We can build anything. Flip it the other way. See if it goes the correct direction. Put dummy plates in there that look just like your plates, but don't have the magic of the asymmetry that you've incorporated. See if they work. They don't work.

Flip the plates. There's a lot of controls you can do. Flip the polarity. There's a lot of controls you can do. We've done them all multiple times. because nothing I hate more, and I'm sure Drew hates it too, is wasting our time. False data. We cannot stand that.

False positives. So we always have to go through the rigor of flipping it backwards, putting in dummy plates, putting in a bigger chamber. If we get something that's really duts. Electric static, you put 5,000 volts on a wire, and you think, okay, I've just put 5,000 volts on a wire. If the wire is thin, it can actually physically change shape. because the electrostatics inside want to get away from each other. The little electrons on the wire want to get away from each other.

And they exert so much force on the insulation, they can actually make wires change shape. Wow. So if you have wires running to your test article, when you power it up, a source of false information could just be the fact that you powered it up. So in order to stop that, because Dr. Charles said, hey, that's the next order of operations.

I said, okay, took the entire high voltage power supply and mounted it inside the test rig, inside the Faraday Cup, inside the Faraday chamber, and the whole thing is now on a pendulum. So you can see it here. I mean, you can shrink this down to nothing. I shrunk all that down and stuck it inside of the Faraday chamber, inside the Faraday box. So if your power supply is inside your box, that's moving. Eliminating one more possible source of false information. That's really, really hard to fake that.

And then ran a thousand tests in that new configuration. It's been at least a thousand that we've had it. There are smart people that have very, very good ideas of how to be fooled. And, you know, we've just had to address all of them over the last 10 years. That's what we had to do. And that's okay. That's what we want. You know, the only person we're competing with is ourselves.

We are going to innovate so fast that no one's going to be able to catch us. So that's pretty cool. That's where we're at. I mean, that's not where we're at. But that's, to answer your question, yes, there's at least a half a dozen or a dozen different. And those things that are, you can't see them, but those things are these. This is the actual, this is, that's from like five years ago, six years ago. But those stacked, you stack enough of those little bad boys up and you can make a five-millimeter thruster.

Wow. Then you put. What is this thing in the middle made of? That's a sheet of brass. That's just brass. Mm-hmm. The yellow stuff is a polymer tape called capton. Now what about like any kind of crazy exotic materials?

Are there any like other materials that you guys could think up that would make this stuff work? I mean, there are. Yeah. I mean, I would say there are plenty of options. But you have to know why you're doing them, what you're doing for. Are you trying to shrink it down? Are you trying to make it lighter? Are you trying to increase the field?

Are you trying to prevent breakdown of the plates of the field? Are you trying to increase the permutivity? Are you trying to decrease the permissivity? You know, there are a lot of material questions and there are a lot of materials that can accommodate those design changes. So the answer is of the 2000 tests, many of them are literally material-based. Right. So, and then, you know, so there are, there's a wide space there. And there's no wrong answers.

When people come up with things, you, there are so many facets in which this thing works. Not all of them are better, as Drew would say, some of them are just worse. but I think we found that 90% of the time the darned force is there because it is so universal it's just a universal force it just is it's hard to explain

and once you know the rules you'll know before you even build it if it's going to work or not the biggest problem it's going to sound ridiculous but our biggest problem was sometimes we don't have an off switch we turn these things on

and in the physics of charging up high voltage materials, whether they be conductive like metal or dielectric, which just means they're non-conductive. Sometimes you transfer charge into or from one material into the other so that when you turn the power off, the charge is still in there. It's like taking a balloon and rubbing it on a kitty. We don't hurt the kitty. We just rub the balloon on the kitty and then the balloon sticks to the wall.

or you know you you rub your hand and you can shock somebody right you've you've imparted charge to yourself or the balloon and that charge doesn't just instantaneously dissipate well in our case we're we're we're working with electrostatic fields that are so high that we can drive charge into materials that just don't that you just don't expect them to take on a charge driven drive the charge down into them. Wow. Okay. And once you have the charge driven into the material, when you cut the power, that's the free charge. That goes away and goes back to sleep. But the charge that you've driven down into the materials, that charge has its own field because it's charge. Charge has field. Well, this is a field-driven phenomenon. It doesn't care where the field comes from. If it comes from,

live energy or if it comes from frozen charge, it doesn't care. As long as the, what I like to say, as long as the geometry is fixed, you know, the magic, however we set this thing up appropriately, and the charge is present, it'll continue to make thrust. So we'll run this, you know, we'll put together a really, really state-of-the-art thruster, and I'll charge it for, I don't know, 30,000 seconds. That's a normal test. And turn it off.

well it's in high vacuum and it's got nowhere to go because it's isolated electrically you know I'll come back the next day and it'll still be there the thrust will still be there which means that it's been making thrust

maybe it's making two three four millionutons of thrust when you come back the next day it's still making three millionutons of thrust now at some point as Dr. Charles will tell you there are no perfect materials there are no perfect conductors

there are no perfect insulators So at some point that charge will bleed off to somewhere. It will continue to migrate through the material. It'll migrate backwards. It'll do something because there are no perfect materials. Well, once the charge bleeds off, the thrust bleeds off. So when we really want to make a stinger of a thruster, we'll charge that thing up for, you know, 100,000 seconds, 200,000.

seconds. You know, that's a long time. That's a week. And then we'll just leave it be for a while. And it'll just stay on. Really? Some customers, some customers want it to stay on. After our meeting. Oh yeah. What is this? This is the that's the high voltage needle I told you about. That was the brass needle there. That was the idea of that was a really bad idea. plastic tube over it. And again, it's just... What is that thing on the bottom? It's a plastic tube.

I used the white styrofoam. It's a piece of wire and a plastic tube. Okay. And a piece of tape on the end of it. What's the thing? What the thing on the ground, though? That's a block of styrofoam. Oh. I have a rule there to try to measure how far it moved.

But I had to make sure it was plastic. And you do the weight, that thing was making about six milanutons of thrust. It was 140,000 volts. It was 140,000 volts. But it was making like six. millinutons a thrust. Well, that's insane. That's insane. It's a lot of voltage, right? Yeah, it's insane voltages. So Drew's task to me back in 2016 in April, after I went home and did this after I saw his lab, his task was to me was, you got to package that in this thing.

Right. You got to put that in that little test toy. 140,000 volts with no ground around it. You know, that's what a had no ground. ground around it. The power supply for that thing was the size of this room. So just to get, it was ridiculous. Just to get the grounds around, it took a heck of a lot of development and understanding. Right. Because you put 160,000 volts inside of a metal can. It's just going to spark to the can and break, you know, just spark to it. So we had a lot of work to go from that to, you know, to other designs. But that's, that's kind of where we started. So the idea is to is to do this. same thing with lower and lower voltage.

Lower voltage, smaller, higher force ratio. There's a lot of parameters to optimize. Drop the voltage and increase the force. Yeah, so we're down to like... If you increase the field, because voltage is just there to make the field. So you increase the field. So if you drop the voltage,

you've got to do something like bring the stuff closer together. So you could keep the same field. Exactly. And we play at the edge of the envelope for materials. We play at 10 to the 8th volts per. meter. That's two orders of magnitude greater than it takes to break down air. That's the far view of it. Oh, wow. So you don't want to be near that thing, but. Yeah, it was, it was lethal. It was lethal at every, really? Yeah, it was lethal at every possible instance. So we had to make

something that was non-lethal. That's why we only had our intern run around and change stuff. Now, how is this stuff different from the, the Befield Brown effect? There are some overlap there, for sure. There's overlap. And he was working with a lot of. I think so. I think so. Lots of voltage. Yeah, he was a million volts, hundreds of thousands of volts, yeah, in air. There was a lot of ion wind, I'm sure. There was a lot of ion wind. But I don't think all of it was.

I think some of it might have been this effect. Because these two effects counter each other based on the geometry. Our effect is much, much weaker than ion wind. So we want to make sure we cancel the ion wind so we don't see it because it'll null a lot of force. so but I wouldn't be surprised if there was some overlap there and some of his isn't it true like what sort of what he discovered was utilized for like the the skin of some of the stealth bombers there's some sort of like weird thing going on with the skin of those planes that's the lore we that's not proven I don't know if it was proven or not I know they never

worked on those programs right I mean I think when you put a corona out in front of an airplane or from a spacecraft, you're getting a wind, but this wind is like one or two miles an hour. It's a tiny, slow, very weak wind. It's not strong, but maybe the thought was, for them was to try to lower the turbulence of the gas. If it was a highly ionized gas, maybe someone thought that would work.

I don't see how it would affect it in a good way, in a meaningful way, but it doesn't mean they didn't test it. You know, high voltage corona wind is another specialty of a field, subset of electrostatics. Yeah. Not something aerospace engineers spent a lot of time understanding and learning.

So it wouldn't be surprised if they thought, oh, this is in a wind. We'll just add a wind to our spacecraft without any propellers and increase the wind that we're making, decrease the thrust that we need to get the same speed. They lower the fuel or whatever,

lower the friction. It could have been something as... It could have been something like that. But I don't... Like, they have... Like, they wanted to make torpedoes go faster. Okay, well, you're passing through water. Yeah.

So they would, there's, there's information out there that says that they put a small rocket motor facing forward on a torpedo. And then the bigger torpedo propulsion, of course, is in the back. You think, how is that going to help anything? Right. Well, the rocket motor literally blast gas in front of the torpedo. Well, gas displaces water. So now you're passing through a lower density fluid. Right.

which is a combination of gas and water. Like what creates a cavity right in front of the torpedo? And apparently that was enough to lower the viscosity of the water, or lower the, not water, but the viscosity of the combination gas and water. So now you're pushing your torpedo through a little bubble instead of solid water. So maybe you can go faster. That's the sort of thing that I could understand from aerodynamics. Maybe they thought, well, let's do that.

Let's push this corona gas out in front of the wing maybe somehow magically. And maybe as it gets swept back, it'll reduce the turbulence or it'll recharge the laminar boundary layer. Because that's usually where the drag comes from is when the laminar boundary layer gets tripped and you go into turbulent flow. Maybe it'll push that back another 10 or 20 percent and we'll gain some more laminar flow. Who knows? You know, they could have tried it out. It may have done something. It could have just been a good story. Right. I don't know. Never worked on the program. Yeah, it's just so crazy to me how far advanced, you know, certain technologies have become where other ones have not, you know, for like we can FaceTime people, you know, in New Zealand and literally a split second. And self-driving cars can deliver you a Caesar salad. But we haven't figured out a.

better way than this primitive combustion engine stuff where we're blasting out, you know, chemicals out of the back of a rocket and fire to launch shit into space. And that's like, seems to be like so much money wasted on doing that when we could figure out a better way. It's just one of those mysteries. We need to give him a team shirt. This is a better way. He wants to join the team. This tells you. It's crazy though that like you guys are the first people I've talked to that are actually working on something like this. That's what's, crazy to me. And it's really, it's not so much an engineering issue. It's more of a physics issue. Is this your pretzel? The physics of this didn't exist. This is a pretzel can.

He's, you love this stupid thing. This is a pretzel can. It's literally a can that had pretzels in it. And I put a brass rod down the center, down the axe. Peanut Butterfield pretzels or just regular pretzels? I don't know. He ate them all. Okay. There's no pretzels in there now. Pistles would not help. And then on the, what I did is put a ground sheet in halfway inside the inside the pretzel can that's only half the cylinder. Yeah. So that's the ground.

So here's your asymmetry from your high voltage rod to your halfway coated pretzel can. Very expensive test, as you can imagine. That's a joke. But no, the expensive part is all the power supply and so and all that. But the pretzel can doesn't make a lot of thrust, but it still makes thrust. So that's what was needed, I think, for the last hundred years, like you're saying. The frustration is we don't have a, a, a,

nice new foundation of physics to start from. It always has to start from the foundation of physics and then move up and let the engineers work it from there. Now we have that. So now the engineers can work it from here because it's a discovery. It's what it is. Right. So now we what can we do with it? How strong can we make it? What are the end limits of this force? We've done all we could with the known forces at the time. This is something new now. We have a new toy now in this field of propulsion. Right. Yeah. And then all Also, the most money that I would imagine that the most money that gets spent on things like this are for the purposes of war, which is why they get hidden in these big contract, this defense programs, these defense contractors that are incentivized to keep stuff quiet and not to talk about it just for the for national security type things and whatever, at least historically, that's a fact. Nobody's thrown any money at us.

Well, it's not getting buried by ITAR. Yeah. If they want to steal my pet pretzel can, that's what I'm saying. My point was like maybe that's why we don't see more of it in the public because it is hidden because it's being worked on for, you know, international defense type stuff and the purposes of making weapons or whatever, which is that would be it. That would be the only plausible explanation I would come up with to why I would be. I would love to talk to some of these engineers. Secret. If they're working on something and they want, I would love to have a conversation.

with them. Yeah. Because I would love to know how they pulled off some of the stuff I'm struggling with right now. Yeah. Yeah. There's nobody I can, I can't go out there. Yeah, the problem is those NDAs are pretty vicious, I've heard. I don't care.

I would sign them. No, I mean that Dave signed. Yeah. They can't talk to you. Yeah. There's just nobody out there. I mean, is there anybody out there you can talk to? I mean, is there anybody out there doing third order perturbation theory QED?

No, I don't. And I know there's nobody out there building thrusters that's past me. Because I talk to the next, I know the next five or ten guys that are in the realm of theory and building stuff. And the guys that have reproduced my work, there's nobody. I'd love to, you know, I want to hire them. On the reverse side, if it is a military thing, it's hidden somewhere in a mountain and uses, it's used for weapons for hurting folks or whatever. Yeah.

Is there any evidence of that? That some weird craft comes in way better than stealth technology. I mean, look at the, we're losing a war to Iran. We're not using any crazy exotic weapons with that. I mean, we still have these aircraft carriers. And we're trying to fight against $20,000, you know, drones. Yeah. So I would think if we had something exotic, we might want to be using it.

Yeah, you would think that. We would think if we had that, we might be using it now more than ever. You have a curious definition of losing if you think we're losing. losing to Iran. Really? I believe so. But that's another conversation. You think the United States is winning that war?

You know, a various curious definition. Yeah. Well, everything that I've read at least doesn't seem like it's that we're doing too well. But it is definitely, you know, one of the hottest wars that we've seen as far as the United States being involved in as far as like equipment being used, right? We have been very expensive. We have lots of Navy equipment. Navy equipment.

Very conventional. It's almost as if they're depleting the conventional so they can fill up the armory with maybe the next gen. I don't know. Maybe they're going to fill it back up with gravity bombs again. Maybe they're going to fill it up with next gen. I don't know. I'm not connected in any way, shape, or form with the military. Yeah, well, I would imagine that we would see something.

There's a video of the change. This is super old. But I'll just pause it. Yeah, like, for example. Oh, jeez, if I can pause it on the right spot. If you can freeze it in the middle. I think you have to go to it. There, I got it.

And again, we have a great big viewport on the side of the vacuum chamber. And you're just looking into the vacuum chamber. And this is back when we were just hanging things in the chamber. We didn't have a test stand around them or anything. But there is an ITO box. And there was a, there's a, there's a. A fair day cage. cage around the test article. That's kind of what the yellow thing is.

A lot of tape on it. And then it goes, it's just free hanging and then it goes backwards to a load cell. So nothing's going to move in this test. The whole test is conducted because load cells give you information about the forces they experience, but they only move a tenth of a millimeter. So there's no motion in the test. But they're tugging on something. It's like every scale you've ever stepped on has load cells in it. That's how it's how it converts. your weight into something that can show you on a screen. So these are, this is, all our forces are against a load cell. The load cell is connected to a data acquisition system,

and that's converted into information that can be displayed on a screen. Back when we were showing the other movies, that had a little Chiron running along the bottom, we would take all our data that we collect everything, and put it on the screen and then just video it. That's the fastest way to record all 20 channels. So this is where we've evolved to is full vacuum, full shielding, and running against a piece of equipment that's digital. So there's no human in the loop here.

We run these tests automated. Right. And the way I normally do them is I usually pull back on the string a little bit, put about a 10, 15-millimeter force on the meter, and then see if it changes from that. That way there's no slack in the string and you're not changing things. Right. But it takes 12 hours. You put a test article in there. It'll take 12 hours for the stretch in the string to level out.

It's a really nice test setup. For the water vapor on the surfaces, there's molecular water on every surface. It takes 12 hours for the molecular water to evaporate off the surfaces. I can put a brand new thruster in there that I know is perfect. put it in there, pump it down, run the test, see no thrust at all. Wait 12 hours and there's thrust. Wow. Well, what was wrong?

What was wrong was there was molecular water on the surfaces that was acting as a metal and shorting out the thruster. That's not because it was a bad design. It's because there's water on everything in air. And you start by, you've got to be able to breathe. Otherwise, it's really tough to work on stuff. So, you know, so we've learned a lot about what it takes to do good testing. And reproducing and good testing is the core.

You know, we come up with a design and we'll test and test and test and test and test. And this is just a really, that's a couple of years ago. That was, those are fun days. That was like days when they were a whole lot simple. So you said earlier in the beginning of the podcast that you know, a lot about the Saturn 5 rocket. I believe I do. How come we haven't been able to create a rocket as good as that?

We have. Since the 60s. Funny a rocket's better than Saturn 5. Then how come we haven't... Well, we haven't had a rocket like the Saturn 5 that has been able to work on the first try without refueling. Saturn 5s didn't work on the first try. It was the whole Pogo problem.

Did you ever hear about it? No, I didn't. What is it? Saturn 5, the sloshing, you had an instability in the fuel tanks. Okay. And that ended up with sloshing around, so they had to put baffles in the fuel tanks. And they still didn't get rid of the Pogo problem. So they ended up for, Pogo.

Pogo. Yeah, Pogo Saturn 5. What's the acronym? What's the acronym? Oh, I don't know. It's just because of Pogo stick. The thing would go boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. On the fuel?

It turned out to be insubesatron. stability in the combustion chamber in the oxygen mix when they were pumping in the liquid oxygen and the liquid hydro. They're pumping in the liquid oxygen and RP1, which is basically refined kerosene. And they ended up having to put simple circular baffles in the first stage combustor section of the interchange. And that's all it took. And they eliminated Pogo on like the third try. But they didn't see. Pogo until they were flying. They didn't see it in the F1 test because you don't take your whole F1, the F1 was a monster of a test rig. And they put the F1 engines in the test rig and they fired them all up. You don't take your whole test rig and shake it up and down a couple of times a second

like you do your rocket. So they didn't know there was a problem. It was a systemic problem. It was a problem created by the system of rocketry. Well, once they launched and they had Pogo, and they almost lost a Saturn 5 to it, they immediately went back to the drawing boards and figured out what the problem was, and they fixed it in two or three runs. So by the time you got to put in people on board, the Pogo problem was solved.

But is it true? Isn't it true that we never actually had a Saturn 5 explode or anything like that? Like the first actual launch with humans was successful? I do not believe they had a rapid disassembly. I know. I think they succeeded in the Saturn 5 getting off the deck very well.

But they blew up lots of F1 engines at Huntsville. That was where they tested all the F-1s at. They blew up lots of engines. The shuttle blew up lots and lots of shuttle engines. They almost gave up on that engine before they got it working. Lots of rockets blow up, lots of rocket engines blow up. They had lots of fuel tank failures. They had lots of...

There's lots of components in a rocket, and they're all tested independently and you don't see the failures because they solve them. The only time you see the assembly is when everything is actually coming together. So why don't you think that we've been able to go back to the mood since Apollo? We haven't wanted to. Bad enough. We had 10% of the federal budget back then.

Now we have one-tenth of 1%. It's a different game now. Plus, it's a mission. The Saturn 5 was... We've been talking about going back to the moon for so long. Yeah, but the people want to go back. to the moon. That doesn't mean the governments want to go back to the moon. Well, the presidents have been saying it since who?

Yeah. Again, there hasn't been enough will to go back to the moon. There just hasn't. But the Artemis program has a lot of momentum now. And we went around the moon a few months ago. So that's the first step. It's a huge step. I had 10 years in the Ardennes. Yeah, but they're ambitious. So an Isaacman is going to be on point with this. They're going to go into Lower Earth orbit. They're going to do some mating, demating procedures in Lower Earth orbit, just kind of what we did for the Gallup. Leo program. The next one they're going to go into low. Yeah, they're going to go up and they're going to check out transfer and stuff and fuel. I don't know. They're doing fueling next time. Yeah, they're going to do fueling thing. Because the new generation of rockets are, they have a different mission. Their mission isn't go camp on the moon at all cost and we hope we get the astronauts back. That's the old mission. Okay, and that's why I said those were the bravest guys in the world. Total respect. The new mission is, how. Now, we expect to get the guys back and the gals, and I don't want to limit it.

We expect to get everybody back, and we're not going to kill any of the ground crew either. And we want to do this cost effectively. So we want to get some of the rocket back, if not all of the rocket back. And we want to be able to do this on a continuous basis. These are very different launch parameters, very different goals. Okay. This is a very different economy, as Dr. Charles mentioned. And there's about a hundredth as many people working on these programs as there was.

Okay, it's one thing. It's like, you want to build a pyramid. Okay, go get the entire country interested in building a pyramid. And you can build one. Not just a couple of YouTubers. Now, let's wait a thousand years and let's build another pyramid. Oh, but we want to do this with one construction company working with, you know, one-tenth of one percent of the resources that we had the first time.

Right. The technology has accelerated. There is no, there's no comparing a shuttle RS-45 engine to the third stage, the S-3 engine. There's just no comparing it. The S-3 engine was a go-getter. It maybe had an ISP of somewhere around 300. The RS-45 engine, which was in the shuttle, which is probably 10 years later, had an ISP of around 40. That's an enormous amount better efficiency.

Okay. The new engines that burn, what are they, methylox? Methane oxygen. These engines are ISPing within like 1% of their maximum capability. These are incredibly efficient engines. This is amazing. They have optimized it for a different goal. I think the difference now is not just the government going,

is part of the Artemis program. They've brought in an industry. They brought in Elon Musk to help. Jeff Bezos to help. All these other aerospace companies are helping. And Elon recently pulled back on his ambitions to go to Mars and said, just to help the Artemis program.

Just to help the Artemis program. Believe that was so that they could accelerate the lunar program. Right. And if you, if... Because he said he doesn't know if we're going to make Mars in his lifetime. If you look at it, though, the step from Mars,

the step from Earth to Mars is big. The step from Earth to Moon is smaller, significantly smaller, and you can learn almost everything you need to learn if you stay with chemical rocketry. If you jump to a new technology base, put the moon back on. Put Mars back on the table. Put Jupiter on the table. Put Saturn's moons on the table.

Because you don't need to learn how to refuel in space. You don't need to have 40 launches to pass. With this technology. With our technology. Of course. It's a whole new learning game. And also if you're, what about if you're using the moon as a launch point to go to Mars instead of the Earth?

Now you're not having to contend with Earth's gravity anymore. Exactly. We are, we are advertising right now about 0.5 Earth unity. In other words, we can generate about half of the thrust that's needed to pick a rocket ship up off the Earth. But when you look at lunar gravity, that's about two and a half. half times lunar unity. So we have gravity, right? It's one six. One sixth, sorry. One sixth gravity, but we have, we have a much, much greater margin for success coming off the moon. Right. And then

going to Mars. If we can do 0.5 Earth gravity and Mars is only 0.38, we can we can take off of Mars too. We can leave Mars and come back. Okay. And again, you know, I'm not where. in diapers. So I want, I want, you're not, you're not volunteering. He wants to go, but I'm not volunteering. He wants to go, but he needs to use your technology. Yeah, I want three and a half days. You know, I damn near hold my breath for three and a half days. Wow. So, you know, it's like, do you have an eclis system that's good for nine months? Yeah. That ain't no joke. Yeah, that's an environmental control life support system. Right. That can run nine months, close loop. What do you do with the carbon dioxide?

What are you going to be a pack a thousand tons of of carbon dioxide absorber on? You're going to you're going to you know literally I spent a lot of years in the Eclos game and it's terrible. It's terrible. You know three and a half days again, you can damn near hold your breath. Yeah, no, it's just astonishing though that you know out of how many launches that were supposed to go to the moon, what was it seven? was it seven launches for the Apollo programs and then six out of seven actually landed

is that right? Yeah there was it seven out of eight or something like that like the success rate was was amazing I think we landed six and we sent seven we landed six it was incredible but again it was the same design that they got working

they didn't change anything they didn't make the rocket twice as good they didn't they didn't they slowly began to remove from in between the stages there were there were giant rings about six feet high and on those rings were mounted telemetry and test equipment and recording and cameras and all kinds of nonsense yeah they after the first launch and after the first landing they said okay maybe we don't need to have all of this so they take some weight off and that could put some more throw weight to the moon by the time they got to the last landing on the moon, they had removed something like four tons of materials from the first and second stages so that they could, you know, send a car to the moon and send, and bring back a thousand pounds of moon rock or something silly like that. Those are tiny iterative changes toward a goal. They didn't turn around and say, hey, we want to get back the first stage of the Saturn 5. Okay, do you want to get it back from the bottom of the ocean

Or you want it to come land back on the launch pad They didn't say that They said, let's take a little more weight out So we have a little more throw weight to the moon Same basic mission Let's give the guys three days on the moon Instead of four hours or something Okay, these are tiny incremental improvements in a system

Those you can do It's not amazing that we got six out of seven try it's a testament to they tested him 10,000 times before they sent the guys up there. Right. And it's just amazing that it happened at that point in history, you know, that long ago. And we haven't been able to come close since. You know, with all the advancements of technology in every other field, right? You know, except for that one.

That's the one that seemed to go backwards. I spent 25 years working on the shuttle program. That was a pretty amazing flying machine. Didn't we use the same shuttle engines for this Artemis? It is the same liquid engines. The same engines. The same engines, right? RS-45.

They're actually shuttle engines because they were the finest liquid oxygen engines ever made. They had the highest ISP, which is the efficiency factor of a rocket engine. They were a great design. They were stupid, expensive, 10, 20 million bucks a piece or something like that. And they took forever to manufacture. And I believe they're starting the line back up for more Artemises, I believe. Coming out, there's going to be two missions next year? Yeah, I believe they're starting the line back up.

But there's nothing... I was so shocked when the one that happened recently happened because that one had been getting pushed for so long. Again, I put 10 years into the predecessor of the Artemis program. We're missing the cadence for a very long time. Are these rockets they're using reusable or no? For the Artemis, they're not. Everything goes in the ocean.

Everything goes. The only thing they get back are the people and the little and the Orion capsule, and it's not reusable. I think it, theoretically it is. I worked on the building where they resurface it. And I don't think, I know the heat shield's not. And I don't believe the capsule is.

Yeah, my best argument for that, what I just explained why we haven't been back, is that it doesn't make, it's not practical, to send people to the moon or to Mars when we can send robots and drones there to do the job just as good as any human being could do. It's just too dangerous. Again, that's a great idea. The Apollo missions were just a flex that we were just trying to, we were just trying to beat the Russians to the moon. That's all we were trying to do. We're trying to be the number one to put people on the moon. It was just a- It was a publicity stunt. You were completely right.

And it was a brilliant tactical motion. It showed that, it was a, it showed that, But we had not only caught up to the Russians, because they were way ahead of us before that. They did the first orbit. They did the first, whatever, the first dog, the first Sputnik thing. They were way ahead of us. We caught up. Then we went past them. They put the first lunar rover on the moon.

It was a little nuclear-powered tank. But we caught up to them, and we passed them. And then planetary, we surpassed them. We did the Mars programs. I don't think we've done anything. on Venus, so they were ahead of us on the Venus landings. But yeah, it was another extension of the Cold War, I believe. And it's been my opinion that NASA has been a ping pong ball of the political scheme

forever. They were born a ping pong ball. There was nothing wrong with NACA. It was making airplane wings and doing great. And then they said, well, we need to have something that does space because the godless you know, commies are going to take space from us. Right. So they created NASA, and it was a ping pong ball of politics ever since.

They cut the budgets, they didn't spend the budget. They give them a mission, they cancel the mission. They tell them to produce hardware that is technologically the bleeding edge. Then they cut, then they slice the teams up, and they come in and they rearrange the, what they want them to do. It's terrible. It's not how you build a rocket. How much technology, if any, do you think NASA has that it's keeping secret?

I think it's possible. I mean, I know it's kind of a, you know, you're technically employed by them, but if you could speculate. Well, I mean, we're public, you know, we're, you know, we serve the public, right? So every time we have a new technology, we have to report it. Right. So we have a new technology reporting. Right. And we put it out there.

We want to report it because then we could maybe get it patented and get it licensed and then we can benefit from it. The employees benefit. It's not like a company where the company's benefit. Have you heard of the story of Gary McKinnon that got the hacker guy who hacked NASA? Yeah, I heard of him. He's living in England or whatever. Yeah, he, he, they tried, the U.S. tried to extradite him back to the U.S.

to put him in prison for 80 years because he, uh, when he was a kid, he did some, like, hacking stuff and he hacked the pet, tried hacking the Pentagon and ended up getting into NASA. And he found some image of this TikTok. object floating in outer earth orbit. And it was referring to, it was like a document that was referring to non-terrestrial officers or something crazy like this. And as soon as he saw the thing with his, I mean, obviously he can't prove it. But this is what he said.

And we know for a fact the U.S. threw everything but the kitchen sink at this guy to try to get him to come here so they could put him in prison. And, you know, he's crazy that he described the cigar-shaped like white metallic object. and on a NASA database. Dude, nobody believes we're real and we don't follow the UFO crazy stuff. You want us to speculate on it? I heard all these stories

that can't verify any of these things. NASA has people that go in and erase images before they give them to the public. Yeah, you know, I don't know if that's real. I just don't. You know, we just had a mission to the moon, right? We landed our payload on the moon,

the electromagnetic dust shield. It removes dust from surfaces as part of the firefly payload last year. He invented that, by the way. And then, you know, we had companies take images. They take high-definition movies of the moon, and they give them out. So we don't, you know, NASA doesn't control a lot of that.

Maybe they did a long time ago, but I don't think they control it now. So I think companies can easily take super high-definition and videos of the moon and everything and share them. It would be a massive conspiracy if there was giant's buildings on the moon and all these structures and all that stuff. Yeah, that's another crazy one too.

That's another crazy one. There's stories about that. But the imagery that comes out, not just America, but the companies in America. China don't see anything like that. Oh, man. There's this dude who allegedly was in charge of mapping the moon

for the Apollo missions. and he worked for NASA and his name was Hal Pavenmeyer. Have you heard of this name before? No. Never heard of Hal Pavenmire? So I heard that this guy worked for NASA and he allegedly like mapped the moon and he told somebody that there was like crazy structures like ancient looking structures. I've heard of that too.

Yeah. And there's other people that I've talked about that too. There's other people that, you know, stories that are unverifiable about that. But it's just interesting, you know. It's interesting where these stories come from. Yeah. Giant cannons on the moon. Canons?

Canons? I haven't heard of that. Yeah. I did see something a couple years ago of the head of NASA talking in front of Congress or being asked about exploring the dark side of the moon. And the congressman was, he was grilling the head of NASA, one of the previous heads of NASA. And he was like, the Chinese said that they're actively trying to figure out what's on the dark side. do studies on the dark side of the moon.

And he's like, why aren't you doing that? He's like, oh, let them do it. We have no interest in that. Do you know there is no dark side of the moon, right? Well, what I'm saying is that's the side away from us. That's what I mean. The side of the spot not facing the moon. Because, you know, there's so many people out there that think the world's flat and whatever, all the crazy nonsense.

Yeah. The same side of the moon that's constantly facing away from Earth. That's what I meant by that. We have plenty of satellites that map all that. Yeah. So that's not. The lunar explorer. was able to take pictures

all the way down to the pole that was laying on the ground that the flag used to be on. Right. And they've mapped the entire moon 20 times over. They've literally mapped the moon 20 times over. And they can see things, they can see a

four foot high pole or whatever laying down on its side and all the little footprints around it. If you're hiding a city or cannons or something on the moon, you're doing really good. You're really, really good at that. There's definitely a lot of high definition video of the moon.

Right. Have we seen high definition footage of the opposite side of the moon? Yeah. Oh, we have. It's very well mapped. Oh, wow. Publicly? Of course.

Yeah. Oh, wow. All of NASA's imagery is public. Sure. Oh, okay. There's a Lunar planetary institute. Lunar planetary science. By that, it's like saying all of the Hubble,

raw data is publicly available. There's, I don't know, 50,000 gigabytes of Hubble data that you can go download it any piece you want. But there's 50,000 gigabytes of it. Yeah, that's the hard thing is to... You know what's crazy is they...

I learned from an astrophysicist recently, he was saying that all of the highest powered telescopes that we have at the observatories, whenever they have to... I guess they have to process the images that the telescopes produce, they have to pass through the Pentagon

before they can be released publicly. I've never heard that. Chad GBT, BT, Steve. Okay. Find the source. This was a, like, a New York Times article, I think it was. I've never done professional astrophotography. But I did 30 years of amateur, deep sky astrophotography.

Ten of it with that monster of that telescope. I go to the next one. Ten of it with that monster. I have thousands of deep sky astro photographs. Of those thousands, I have one that... And I'm like, okay, I don't know what that is, but it sure looks like a meteor. Yeah.

One out of thousands. Okay, and I did deep sky astro photography for real for 20 plus years. Never saw anything that just like made you more cure. or anything like that. And I had big boy toys. You're not interested in it whatsoever? In what? Like the things flying around that could not be explained or anomalous.

I never saw one. Just never saw one. I saw plenty of stuff that belongs up there. Yeah. And, you know, took some fairly decent pictures of it. By today's standards, they're jokes. But, you know, technology is so amazing. I feel like most people that report seeing weird things in the sky,

they always seem to be near like military bases or air force bases things like that you know like there's lots of stories maybe yeah i mean i've seen weird things but i don't know about you know taking images and you know giving up to someone first before you release them kind of thing yeah well imagine i mean you guys are you guys are right there in titusville there's a lot of crazy stuff military going on there and space stuff going on there. It's mostly civilian. I mean, they haven't thrown anything military. There's a huge Air Force base over there.

Right near Melbourne, I used to surf behind all the time. Patrick's Air Force Base. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Patrick's Air Force Base. It's Space Force Base? Of course it is. I thought it was Air Force Base. It was.

Oh, that's when I used to know it when it was Air Force Base. And they were, I think they're doing a lot of work with Northrop Grumman there, too. Like there's a lot of, there's a large contingent. I've heard. I know somebody who used to work. There's a very large contingent of Northrop Grumman down in Melbourne and down in Palm Bay. And most of the big aerospace companies are moving out of wherever they are and setting up shop within 20 miles of the Kennedy Space Center. Whoa.

We've got Lockheed Martin bringing the fleet ballistic missile force to Titusville. I read about that. And that's great. I mean, that moves more space amazement and space technology into an area that is becoming the hub of space research and space launch capabilities. That's why we're there. That's world's first warp drive company. That's amazing. Shameless plug.

Yeah, no, I imagine that there's got to be all kinds of crazy stuff going on on the west coast or on the east coast of Florida. You know, stuff that could not be explained that people would be seeing in the sky. So the short and long of it is, there's lots of. stuff up in the sky. Some of it you can readily figure out what it is. Some of it turns out to be reflections. Some of it, who knows, might be unidentifiable, cool stuff. Let's get up there and find out. Me and Steve saw something actually, right off the coast over on Indian Rocks Beach, on the West Coast over here, about two years ago, we had a gentleman come out, came on the podcast, and he brought us out to the beach, and we sat there and we stared at the sky for like two hours. First of all,

That's the first disclaimer is I've never stared at the sky for two hours at night. Okay. So we sat out there and Steve brought his camera and we were staring at the sky waiting for some orbs to pop up or some anomalous lights to pop up. And we can see that we got used to the airplane traffic, right? We saw all the airplane traffic. We saw the planes that were landing in Clearwater. We knew the planes that were landing in Tampa. They all had the lights.

It was easy to distinguish the planes. We could see the boats on the water with the lights. and at one point off the horizon this orb of light pops up off the horizon and starts move it goes like imagine this table is the horizon

it goes like this and then starts going like this one one went straight up and then it fizzled out really really bright and another orb pops up and starts going the opposite way oh wow and then fizzles out

and I had never seen anything It was not an airplane. There's no way that was an airplane. I have the video on my desktop. Yeah, check this out. So to set up for people watching, or you guys too, so this right here is the horizon. You can kind of see the horizon right there.

See that? And then, of course, you'll see planes. This right up here is a plane, and I don't remember what this is, but you'll see it pop up right around here. So that was a plane flashing. Okay. There it is.

Right off the horizon. See that? It's not red? Was it? red? Yeah. Watch. It goes up and it fizzles out. Now it starts moving to the right. You can see it moving past. One appears on the top and moves to the left. Now watch. It'll just disappear. And then it gets brighter and then it disappears. Yeah, that one gets super bright. We saw that a few times. Look how bright that thing gets.

Brighter than the plane. And it's off the horizon. That plane is, I don't know how far the plane is. And then it goes away, right? It just disappears. Wasn't a boat, wasn't a plane. I don't know how to explain it. It's the first time I've ever seen anything like that. That's interesting. I told Jesse about my experience with those things.

Something similar to that. Oh, hell yeah. I wish I hadn't known this before you were booked up with me. It was about, I would say, three miles offshore. I don't know if you watch that podcast that I did with him. about it. I don't know if he aired it or not. But it was weird. I saw it. And I saw it on things. Yeah. Yeah, my wife went out there to the beach like we always do at night, just hanging out.

What beach? This would have been Coco Beach. Coco Beach. Okay. Just south Cocoa Beach. Right. Just north of Patrick. Right. And we go out there all the time and we went out there and I'm going to say it's like 930, 10 o'clock at night. Something. There's not a lot of people on the beach, if any. And we see a light three miles away. And it's get, you know, it's pretty still. Kind of like that just comes up.

It gets real bright. It gets real dim. It gets real bright. It gets real dim. It's not doing anything. It's just getting bright and getting dim. It's undulating. It's kind of just getting bright and dim.

Like, that's weird. It's just a weird boat. Doing something. Right. I don't know what's doing. No noise or nothing? No. But then it gets real bright.

Like, oh my God, nuclear bomb went off bright. What? it got so bright. It lit up the whole beach. As far as I can see, it made shadows of us against the buildings behind us. As far as I, we looked left and right. We couldn't see anyone else on the beach. And this giant explosion out there. I said, oh my God. We got to call somebody. Janice is like, well, it's the Air Force Base. They'll come out soon or they'll come out to check it out. And sure enough, within five minutes or so, a couple of helicopters went out, maybe one or two helicopters went out, hovered right over the damn thing. Really? While it was still lit up? It got dimmer.

Okay. But it was still there doing a little undulating thing. Got real dim. I'm like, it must have, maybe it's a shot off a flare. I don't know what it was, but it was so bright, much brighter than a flare would be lit up a whole beach. And we're like three miles away. A flare would not light up our whole beach.

No, not like that. Not like shadows. It looked like a giant nuclear weapon. It wasn't a mushroom cloud with it, but it was just the brightness of it. And we were like, this is weird. So the helicopter hung over for a few minutes. and then just went back, went back,

and the light was still there. I'm like, are they going to rescue these people? Are they going to send boats? Are they going to do something? Anything. I don't know what. So we sat there and kept watching it.

It's about 10, 15 minutes in it later, the light started getting bigger. Started getting closer. So we're like, oh, that's weird. The genus and I were still looking. And, uh, no, it's,

it's a light. It's, it's undulating. It's going bright. getting dim, getting bright, getting dim, it's getting closer. Now it's two miles offshore. Then it was a mile offshore. And then it got, then it gets freaky.

Now, like directly, if you guys are, if you're facing the Atlantic Ocean directly off the beach from you? It came right towards us. It did a beeline for us. And, you know, it didn't go super fast, but it was moving fast. enough that we can tell that it was coming towards us. It certainly looked like it did initially. And then we knew it was definitely coming towards us when it got a mile, half a mile offshore. And then it got about a third of a mile offshore. And then it split into five or six lights. And then it got closer. This is the crazy thing.

Closer than a quarter mile? Oh, man. This is super close. These things were like the size of like a basketball. I don't know. They weren't very big. But they were very close. They were just where the waves started breaking. Like, oh my God, like 200 feet out, maybe. Right. Something like that. Right. And they went and rotated these five lights, five or six lights went like bicycle spokes into the water, halfway out of the water, halfway into the water. And they just kept doing this. And it was like the freakiest thing. I don't know what the hell it was. So we were walking and we were walking away. Like, this is too close. So we've already started high tail. I would have been sprinting.

So we were like, we're going to walk and it followed us. Do to do, do, keep getting closer. While it was doing the spinning. While I was doing the spinning, the spokes in the water coming back out. And I'm like, there's no one on the beach. No one can see this. And so it got to the point where we started getting scared because we could not run this thing. This thing just came from three miles over here.

And this is 45 minutes in. This is about way more than half an hour. 35 minutes of this experience. I'm like, this thing's not going away. So I knew my little alien tricks because I studied them. for a long time. There was a kid. Always followed this phenomenon just for fun.

Like just close your eyes and just tell it to go away. And that's what I did. So I just said, I'm just going to tell it to go away. Because when you get scared, it knows, and it went away. I had about 45 minutes.

So it didn't get any closer once the wave started breaking, but it did not go away. It wouldn't have gone away if I didn't tell it to. I don't think it would have gone away unless I told it to. It was completely gone after that.

It was completely gone after that. It did the wave thing into the water, boop, boop, bo, bo, and didn't come back out. How long ago was this? 2013, 2013, wasn't that long. Whoa, dude. And it was a good half an hour, 45 minute thing. And I just, to this day, we were like, okay, this is going to be on the news.

There was a boat that exploded. I'm sure we weren't the only one to see this. There's hundreds of buildings and apartments and condos. Someone had to have seen this. So we looked at the newspapers the next day, the next day. ask people that live there. No, I didn't see nothing. It's like 10 o'clock at night.

It's not like 3 in the morning. It was like 10 to 11 o'clock at night. Your wife described it the same way you did. She definitely saw it too. Oh, yeah. No, it was two of us. And we didn't go back to the beach right away after that. Wow.

Oh, dude. It wasn't, it was scary, but it was like not super scary. But once it got a little bit too scary, told it to go away and I went away. I don't know what it was. I don't really know. But I don't think it's super. uncommon. Like Stephen Greer takes

his folks and you know Stephen Greer is. Yeah, I know who he is. Whether you believe him or not. I know he does take a whole group of people down in Vero Beach, but an hour south. And they get the chairs and they sit up on the beach and they summon these lights. When they go, every two, three months he takes a contention of people. They like meditate.

They just sit on the beach and they say, you know, think happy thoughts and then his lights will come and then you'll see four or five, six lights. They'll be on the horizon and just dancing. Last 10, 15 minutes and go away. He does that all the time. I don't know what it is. There's a lot of cruise ships sightings.

Probably more popular. That's a huge cruise ship port right there. There's a huge, yeah, Cape Canal is a huge port. And there's a lot of sightings off of cruise ships. At these same red, what you saw, what I saw, things following the cruise ships.

Like, like dolphins do. Yeah. Following the cruise ships. Right. People have that on video. No one knows what the heck it is. I don't think anyone knows what it is. I have no idea.

I wonder if those dudes in the helicopter knew what it was. They knew. they might know that it's there. I haven't just speculating what the military does. They have to be aware of it, obviously. Yeah, they're like, okay, they know what it's not. It's not the Russians. It's not the Chinese.

So, okay, it's not them. We'll be fine. Let's go back. That's my guess. They know what it's not. Wow. That's all I know. But it was a heck of an experience.

I can't imagine. When I can't, when I can't forget. But I believe you've seen this because I've seen these. Yeah, it's on video too. So it's like, that didn't just like haphazard me, haphazardly happened to me. I went out searching it.

Like this just happened to you without asking for it to happen. Like we were begging, we are on the beach for two hours. This guy was saying he could do it. And I told my buddy about it. And I said, well, you could try going and looking for yourself. So he went out with his family, make it two years later, three years later. He's Charlie, I saw the lights. Really?

He's like, yep. He said, yeah. I saw them. Did you try to summon them? He said, oh, yeah. Did they follow you? Oh, no, I ran. That's crazy, man.

I wonder if it has something to do with that area in the east coast of Florida. I don't know. I have no idea. I can't even expect what the heck that is. I mean, even as close as they got, I mean, I can see how close they were. No feelings associated, no, no other sensory. You know, it just, it was almost like a, it was not communicating, but it was basically like, hi, hello, just friendly.

Do you want to talk? Do you want to maybe get a little closer? You know, if I had to give it a voice, okay, you're scared. I'm going to go away. And that was it. Wow. And that was everything. There was, I don't know what it was.

I didn't know. I couldn't even expect it. There was no solid object. It wasn't a ball of light. It was really just weird. it wasn't like an orb i don't know what it was yeah it's very strange it's very strange one of the mysteries comment on it yeah don't ask me i can't ask drew to build that right i don't know where to begin what that is right yeah no it's interesting too that you how you said like

you closed your eyes and it went away because you know it just seems like there's there's a there's a consciousness aspect to all this stuff that's just it's hard to put your finger on it's hard to weigh it and measure it and experiment with it it's just I mean, like I told you, I believed in telepathy because of the experiments I've done as a kid and continued to do. And I just tried it with these things and it seemed to work. Yeah. Yeah. That makes the most sense to me just to try because we don't know the physics of telepathy, but there's something going on there.

There's something there. I mean, if the government spent, no, millions of dollars on those programs during the Cold War to experiment with that stuff, there must, there couldn't be nothing to it. Right. There had to have been something. There's something. We don't understand it, but it's there just because it's right. We don't understand. It doesn't mean it's not there. Exactly. Same thing with clairvoyance.

Telekinesis, I don't think there's any proof of that. But, you know, telepathy and clairvoyance, I think there's something to it. You know, it's funny enough, I had, I've ever heard of a guy named Dean Radin. Which one was that guy? He's a CIA contractor, scientist who's very much into studying this kind of stuff. And anyways, he is like an expert on this stuff, on this telepathy, clairvoyant stuff. the Stargate program stuff and all this. New Erie Geller and all these people.

And like he was explaining how all of like the most, the brightest minds in science that he knew of, this was in the early 2000s, maybe late 90s. In his field of what he was studying, they were getting contacted by Jeffrey Epstein to study this stuff. And he even got a request to talk to, Jeffrey Epstein and ended up doing a 20 minute Skype call with him. And I was like, what happened? And he was like, he just asked me to tell him stories about spoonbending for 20 minutes.

Weird. You know? Very weird. Yeah, he was flying like top scientists in all kinds of fields. We were talking about that on the way here. The fascination Jeffrey Epstein had with scientists. Yeah. Yeah. He had lots of weird fascist. You know, that's just something that I don't know, I don't know what it is, but there's something weird that happens with people. that just have like an insane amount of money that they just maybe they get bored and they just start getting interested in stuff that you know is unconventional but he was definitely obsessed with you know gravity and um this kind of telekinesis stuff and telepathy and they had a submarine he was

allegedly looking for like atlantis and stuff like wild stuff but you know talking to real scientists and trying to do real research on it you know even working with the nsa trying to figure out how to expand, you know, extend his lifespan using like code hacking and stuff like that. It's wild. Twilight Zone stuff. Maybe one day we'll be rich trillionaires. Well, when you have a guy, when you have a guy, the lesson here is when you have a guy like that, reach out to you to fund you. Make sure you make, you know, do an extensive background check on him.

Make sure he hasn't been arrested for, you know, any kind of crazy charges. The only background check I'm going to run is does his check clear? Well, unfortunately, that's what all the other ones have said too. I want to build spaceships, Viet. I don't care what they want to do with them. Well, you just got to make sure they haven't been caught up in any, like, international human trafficking rings. Yeah, I don't want any part of that.

Well, guys, thank you so much for doing this. This has been a mind-blowing conversation. And I'm really grateful for you guys spending the time to come over here and explain this stuff to me and to the audience. Thank you very much for having us. I think we both enjoyed this very much. Yeah. So,

so may I ask a personal question? Of course. Do you think we're crazy or do you believe us? No, no, I totally believe you guys. Okay. I think we all came on the team. Give me a shirt, baby. We have them somewhere.

We brought them. Oh, I got him. He gave him to me earlier. Yeah, man. No, I think this is fascinating stuff. And, you know, you guys obviously know your shit. You guys have, you know, very credentialed, legitimate people that are doing this kind of work.

And also at the same time, willing to talk about it publicly, which I feel like that's very, very rare. So you guys are super important, and I'm glad I'm happy to help boost your signal as much as possible. That's awesome. We love when people want to come and put their hands on the hardware. You know, actually hands on. We're like, we'll run a test, we'll crack the chamber, pull the thing out, disassemble it, put it in their hands. hands and they're like, this is what was just tested? And like, yeah, you just saw it tested.

Yeah. You know, and because there's nothing to hide. If the thing works, it's going to work all the time. If it's phony, then it's a parlor trick. Right. And someone's going to be able to see through it. Mm-hmm. I totally agree, man.

Tell people where they can learn more about your stuff. Do you guys have a website, social media links or anything like that? We do. Did he change the website name? I don't know. It used to be... Sorry, you can send it to me. You can send it to me after this?

We're going through an IT upgrade because we need it desperately. Well, either way. None of us are IT literate. I'll put all the links to the websites and stuff. Yeah. Show notes so people can find it. Sure. I found what you were talking about, Danny. What did you find, Steve? Let's see.

It was reported in the Atlantic and the... The article. Atlantic, that's what it was. When a telescope. When a, okay, when a telescope is a national security risk, it concerns the Veri-Ruban Observatory, a federally funded telescope in Chile designed to repeatedly photograph enormous areas of the sky. Okay.

And then what does it say about going through the Pentagon? Every 30 seconds it had to be sent to a secure facility in California for some reason. Huh. So, okay, so small image cutouts that might show classified American satellites or spacecraft are withheld from the real-time worldwide alert system. The rest of the data is released in approximately one minute. Okay. The complete unredacted image is released 80 hours later once the information is considered too old to reliably reveal the classified spacecraft's current location. Okay, that's their explanation for why they do that.

Still interesting. Yeah. Wow. That's a lot of data. Yeah. Quite a bit. That's the largest, that's the largest camera on Earth. The one chilly?

On that telescope. They just came online. That's the largest camera. It's like 130 terabytes per image. Holy shit. It's ridiculous. It's insane because they have like 2,500 cameras on this. their imaging system and it scans, they found millions of asteroids.

Yeah, it's it. Look at that. They found hundreds of thousands of that's where they found those interstellar objects that Avi Loeb talks about. Oh, really? That's a super project. They're going to map the whole sky every eight months or something and find like, you know, near Earth. I want to talk about just one last thing and then we'll go away. No, we got plenty. We got all the time you need. Let's say you see, you see, something in the sky, scary, and you have three to six months to do something about it. Like an asteroid? Like an asteroid. Okay, not a planet killer, maybe not even a continent killer, a city killer, okay, something. What are you going to do? Really? You call Ghostbusters?

You got to shoot a nuke at it? No, that's not the answer to anything. The answer is, have a plan and have some way to send a bunch of little thrusters that never have to turn off so that you can get out there in a couple of days, put the thrusters on the object, turn them on, run, turn them on to full blast and push the thing out of the way. We're asteroid defense. You think this could push an asteroid off its trajectory? Easily. Wow.

Because it's got it, you know, how big is the asteroid? I don't know. Put a thousand of them on there. The thing is today in chemical rocketry, it could take you a year to get to the thing. two years to get to it. Well, by then, it's a little bit late. Let's say the thing is going to hit the Earth in six months. With us, anything inside of the orbit of Mars is a couple of days to get to. Either side of the sun, we don't really care.

Right. So we offer a realistic, right, because we offer a realistic way to, one, get to where you're going, you know, look at the problem, analyze what the solution is, and then execute the fix. You don't need to blow the thing up. You just need to move it a little bit. Right. What is the conventional way that they plan to do that?

Isn't there like a conventional plan on how to deflect asteroids? Sometimes they put the thrusters on there. There isn't a real plan. They did some testing. They went to this little asteroid and they slammed a puck of copper into it or something. Oh, really? And they changed the little asteroid, the little tiny asteroid. I mean, the things like the size of this room.

They changed its orbit, and that was great. They studied the results of it, and it was amazing. It was great. It took them like two years to get there. Oh, wow, really? It was a stable. They knew exactly where the thing was, and they planned a whole mission around it. What I'm saying is, you know, they're out there looking.

That observatory, that amazing observatory found like 20,000 new asteroids in its first, the first run, the first couple of hour run or something like that. That's crazy. Okay, well, they're going to run that thing. They're going to find 20,000 asteroids a day forever, new ones. Yeah. What if they find one they don't like? You know, we're saying somebody, take, somebody come believe us

and let us show you how we can build something that might be really useful someday soon. Totally. You know, because chemical rocketry ain't the answer to nothing. You can send it out to one of those interstellar objects too, just to look at that. I did the math. Wait for a nice... We could catch it. Really?

For about another two months, we could catch it. That's amazing, you know, that this telescope, these huge telescopes since they've been brought online, they've already detected three. Yeah, that's us. Oh, there's your website. Our website goes up and down. Exodus Propulsion.

Space. Yeah, that sounds like it. Fantastic. Yeah, we're not real good with that. That website's terrible. We'll link it below. It's the best we got. We're working on it.

It looks good to me, man. a lot of things. And the website, we got a genius now on the team. I love it. And he's going to, like I said, you can go out to any one of those videos and one of them will show you how to build a thruster. I think the first one, a picture, a terrible picture of me, but we'll show you how to build a thruster. They'll show you how to build this thruster right here. You can build this thruster. I think I use this in the example. And when you get done, it will reward you with working. That's amazing, man. Well, we will link all this stuff below for you. for folks. Thank you guys again. I very much appreciate it. It has been a lot of fun. It has been

fun. Good night, folks.