Danny Jones Podcast - #434 - FBI Occult Expert on Breakaway Civilizations & Charles Manson Aerospace Link | Walter Bosley

Episode Date: September 25, 2026

Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Walter Bosley is a former FBI counterintelligence specialist, Investigator of historical occult mysteries, author of pulp fiction novels and a screenwriter who has appeared on History Channel's 'Ancient Aliens'. SPONSORS https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off. EPISODE LINKS https://www.lulu.com/search?contributor=WALTER+BOSLEY *NEW* DJP MERCH https://dannyjonespodcast.com Get paid to make clips from the show: https://discord.com/invite/dannyjones FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - The Sonora Aero Club & 1800s flying machines 07:23 - Charles Dellschau's journals 11:23 - Prototype of the Nazi Bell (Die Glocke) for flying machines 20:09 - Description of 1800s airships 24:35 - 1890s airship mystery 32:26 - Extraterrestrials have been here 36:04 - They're hiding the truth of remote viewing 48:40 - Walter's mentor & the "Blue Lady" 54:45 - Walter's first government application & early career 01:04:01 - Paul Bennewitz & government disinfo agents 01:07:42 - Civil War Era black budget flying machines 01:21:25 - Joseph Farrell's take on aliens & UFO phenomenon 01:27:45 - How individuals can learn the truth of UFOs 01:32:36 - Alleged Antarctica discovery in 1960 01:40:03 - Explaining secrets of the moon landing 01:47:57 - Operation Paperclip was a Trojan Horse 01:59:00 - NASA's secret bases 02:03:42 - 1903 airship that tried to go to Mars 02:06:11 - The gap that suggests a breakaway civilization 02:13:38 - Biggest unanswered question of Manson Murders 02:22:08 - The 33rd latitude line & Disneyland's carousel 02:35:11 - Karmic frequencies 02:39:49 - The murder investigation that got Walter threatened 02:53:45 - Harry Longabuagh (the Sundance Kid connection) 03:01:21 - Harry Houdini's death Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Thanks for coming, Walter. Thanks for having me. I first heard about you through Catherine Austin Fitz, I believe. And she was talking about this secret breakaway civilization. And you wrote about this NIMSA group, which was like the original or like this is, you write about the origins of this speculative breakaway civilization. You know, it emerged in a funny way for me. I had been aware of the 1890s airship mystery for years. You know, most of us have if you're into UFOs at all or any weird stuff.

I had heard about this mysterious Sonora Arrow Club from a friend of mine, Greg Bishop. You probably have heard of him. He's written an excellent book years ago called Project Beta about the Paul Benowitz affair. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I wasn't familiar with that book, but I'm aware of the Paul Beno's affair. Oh, yes, yeah. I highly recommend it.

That's the book to read on that issue. And when I was researching my Empire of the Wheel book, doing the research for that, a gentleman's name popped up. He was arrested on the train during the middle of all this mystery. Now, this was in 1915, several mysterious deaths were occurring in San Bernardino, and it looked like there may have been a serial killer or some sociopath on the loose. And this young 24-year-old man by the name of Frank Rosascoe is arrested on the train, and he's committed to the county hospital. He's arrested first and then committed because he's diagnosed as being dangerously paranoid. So here you have this potential murder mystery.

You have this young man arrested on the train because he's having a nervous breakdown. He's losing his mind and he's saying, you know, that, oh, I didn't hurt her. I didn't hurt her. And there had been a woman found dead, which is the center of the mystery. Well, a couple of days after he was arrested, the papers report that he was released into the custody of the unidentified friends from Sonora. And I thought, okay, let's check his name and see if, you know, they came from Sonora, Mexico. Nothing there.

Then I quickly discovered that the name was Italian, not Spanish. And long story short, I discovered that he's from a very prominent Italian ranching family in Sonora, California, the home of the Sonora Aeroclub, which is at the heart of the airship mysteries. And I thought, how is the airship mystery connected to this? Wow. 1915. 1915? 1915.

Uh-huh. Yeah. And so I made a note of that, and I dug into the Sonora Arrow Club lore, so to speak, because no one's quite sure. We only have one source on the Sonora Aero Club, and that's a gentleman by the name of Charles Del Schau. He was a German immigrant who, by his own story, was sent here to the states to go to California and report on this group of other German immigrants who had settled in California who were dabbling with flying machines. The problem is this was in the 1850s, the decade before the U.S. Civil War, flying machines. This was Del Shale's story. And he claimed that he was sent on behalf of an organization based in, I think it was, I'm pretty sure it was Brandenburg in Germany, called NIMSA, NYMZA,

spelled with all capital letters like an acronym. And he's our original source on this word, on this group that he claimed was headquartered in Germany. And they were overseeing and maybe in some cases investors in various groups that were dabbling in flight and other exotic technologies, which he did not elaborate on because he was, according to his own story, only sent here. to go to California and investigate these guys. Well, Del Shale... On behalf of NIMSA. On behalf of NIMSA, the mysterious group. Now, remember, Germany back then was still multiple, I think, 48 states.

They weren't a unified Germany yet. They were, you know, the Prussians, so-called Prussians, were driving unification. So that was Germany at that time. So he goes to California. he ends up really liking these guys. And finally, and he reports on witnessing these flying machines working. They're not balloons.

And he describes how their system and their process works. Eventually, the German office, they send a representative directly from there, whom Del Shou and the other members of the club referred to as that Prussia. an officer, some military guy, and nobody liked him in the club because the message from NIMSA in Germany was, we want you to design and build these things for military application. And these guys didn't want to. So why were, why was this German group of people doing this stuff in California? They had, see, that's part of the mystery, is, um, Delscher.

Charles tells us some of their names, but we still don't know their backgrounds. The leader of the Sonor Arrow Club was a guy named Peter Menace. And he, after this Prussian officer comes from Germany, and they kind of have kind of a confrontation with him because they're not going to build these for military application. The Prussian officer is going to go back to Germany and report on this. And not long after that, Peter Menace reported. According to Del Shale, dies when his flying machine,

they called them arrows, A-E-R-O, how they spell that, explodes in a fiery crash and we're told that Peter Menace dies. There's reason to suspect that maybe he faked his death, and then after that the club breaks up, and that's it. And we first heard about this.

Del Shau started writing about this in 1893 or four. And we would never have known about this story had a gentleman by the name of Pete Navarro not found Del Shale's journals and illustrations in a junk shop in 1971. Pete Navarro? Pete Navarro.

He's since passed. I exchanged a couple of emails with him. And he's our original source on Del Shau. In 1971, he found these books, several books bound with string. And it had just several of these books contain hundreds of these sketches and paintings and drawings, elaborate drawings of the arrows both actually built that actually flew. Wow. And those that were proposed. Where are these journals now?

Well, what's interesting is they're kind of dispersed out, but we know that for a while anyway and maybe still the D.Minal. Is this it? There's an example. Yeah, that's an example. He drew this? He drew all of these that you see like this. Wow.

Yeah, yeah. And the D-Mobile organization, who, if you know, your JFKS, assassination milieu. The demonils are in the mix there. They've never heard of demon ill. Oh, yeah. They bought several of the books back in the 70s and they were keenly interested in Del Shale's stuff. And they bought his original handwritten journals. Oh, yeah. They bought several of them. Are there any photos of the actual handwritten journals online or anything? Yeah, actually, one of the pictures that I sent that shows a bound book with a tan cover, that's a photograph of just one of the many books. Oh, wow. A gentleman by the name of Stephen Romano, who owns the Romano Gallery in New York, there's an example of one of them.

And there were several of these. But as you can see, they're just stacked full of these illustrations. And the Stephen Romano Gallery has published an absolutely beautiful, oversized book of several samples from the Del Shale books. It's fantastic. Find some more images of that, Steve. And he shared with me some requesting me not to publish them, but he shared with me some of Del Shale's private diary pages. Why would he ask you not to publish them? Because at the time, I don't think he had permission.

He wanted to know my... Because Del Shale wrote a lot of stuff in code. He used this weird personal code that a few people have worked on decoding it. But we're not quite sure. Pete Navarro probably did the most on the decoding of it. But we're not sure what most of it says. And Dale shall produce these books between, I think, 1893 or 94 and 1923 when he died. Wow.

So that he didn't emerge into public awareness until Navarro found his books in 1971. A lot of people kind of consider him, write him off as an outsider artist. I don't because there's just too much there for him to have merely been an outsider artist making all this up. Not the least of which was the discovery I made. You're familiar with Daglaca, the Nazi bell? Oh, yeah, I've heard of the Nazi bell. Okay, I found the bell, a prototype proof of concept version of the bell in Del Sheld's works. I really.

The first thing I did was call, I'm good friends with Joseph Farrell. Okay. And I said, Joseph, I'm going to send you a photo. What is this to you? Right. And he looked at it. And he goes, where did you find that? I go, it's in Del Shale.

Because you've got to be kidding. I'm like, no. And then I contacted Stephen Romano. And I go, go to page whatever of your book. There's the bell. Now, Del Shal, prior to dying in 1923, one of his drawings. In fact, I think I sent photos of that too. You'll see here.

He claimed that this was the motive power source or part of the power source for how the arrows could take flight and in gain anti-gravity. It was just part of the process. The Nazi bell was. It's a bell-shaped. Well, the Nazis later, they juiced it up with electromagnetism. But this would have been a proof of concept. Very basic. but there it is a bell-shaped element that rotates, spins around a central axis.

And according to Del Shale, no, it's one that's, yeah, click through those. It would be the shape of a bell. Go back, go back. There we go. The generator cone. Dell Shale called it the generator cone. But it's bell-shaped. Wow.

And then the description, it spins around a central axis. And now he sketches this before he dies in 1923. And we have the lore of Daglaca, the Nazi bill emerges obviously after 1923. Okay. And you've got the German connection. Right. You know, you start seeing these threads. Now, like I said, others that have looked at it that, you know, Joseph Farrell being one of them, they agree with me that this is essentially a prototype, proof of concept version of the bell.

However it was, they did this. In the 1850s, now, what is the conventional explanation that people will give you, historians will give you, if you ask them about the Nazi bell? Well, most historians don't even believe it exists. Oh, really? They don't even acknowledge of being real? Yeah. Why? They won't go that far yet because there hasn't been a document that has emerged from anything,

you know, World War II era documents that have, are proof positive. So how do we know that the Nazi bell was something? Or why do people speculate about it? It emerged from, Igor Wikowski was a public, it was a publicist, a Polish researcher and writer. And a Polish intelligence officer told him about this device, this de glaca device. And he started looking into it.

And Joseph Farrell is actually the first one to write about it in English. And it still comes out of that murky world of Nazi scientific intelligence. Right. So it's just oral transmission. There's no original documents. Right, right.

Now, there are things that Joseph Farrell has pointed out, like Kamler, Professor Dr. Kamler, who would have been involved with such things. And there's some murky, mysterious stuff stated in documents about him. there was mention of a particular device being classified as in German, it translates into the English as it can change the outcome of the war. However, that's said in German. Joseph Farrell is better about the phrase, but it was classified with the Wonderwaffe. You're familiar with the Wonderwaffe,

the Wonderweapons that the Nazis were developing, during the war. Oh, it reminds me. In the murk of all that, well, their most exotic technologies were referred to as Wunderoffa, the wonder weapons. And they could change the outcome of the war. And there was something very mysterious that Kamler was involved with that could have changed the outcome of the war.

And that is believed to be a reference to the bell. And then there are other stories where people- Sounds like that could be a nuke maybe. Well, they were messing with nuclear technology. You know, some folks believe that they did detonate a test nuke. I heard this. I'm not a German speaker, Thuringen Woods or something, one of the forest country over there, and possibly tested one in the Pacific for the Japanese.

Possibly. That's part of the lore. I'm admittedly not an expert on that, but there's enough reasons to suspect that the Germans were farther along with their atomic bomb research than has been traditionally believed. So, you know, it could have just simply have been that, but you have all these weird stories. Now, I've done some research on that. And there's a novel by Dean Kuntz called Lightning, titled Lightning, which is about a Nazi time machine. And it was published in the 80s, a few years before Igor Wakowski source came to him and said,

hey, there was this thing called DeGlaca, the bell. And what's interesting is the time device in Dean Kuntz novel, is strikingly similar to the description that this Polish intelligence officer told Igor Witkowski. So the question remains, okay, did the intelligence officer just get this from a book and generate this stuff? Or what did Dean Kuntz know when he wrote this? Was there really anything to it? And then, alas, we find that Del Shou did this drawing before 19. And for all intents and purposes, what he's describing is the bell, the rotating device.

Now, what the Nazis did was added the second element because it, you had the counter rotation, right? You had two parts. One spun one way, the other spun the other way. And they injected a serum, which might have been mercury. most people think it's mercury. And then the high spin rate. And then, of course, they juiced it up with electromagnetism, unlike it had ever been before.

And so the legendary result is anti-gravity. So here you have this group in the 1850s that according to a guy writing in the 1890s, before 1923, was messing with the same concept. and he's claiming that they were achieving a form of anti-gravity. Interesting. So you have to wonder, okay, maybe the Bell story, you know, is true. If you enjoy watching our show on Spotify or YouTube and you want to be more involved,

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with our Patreon community every week has been huge. And this is my way of saying thank you for the cost of a cup of coffee a month. Now back to the show. So did Del Shaw write about seeing these airships in the sky and how they moved?

Oh, yeah, he witnessed Peter Menace. Now, the arrows that Del Shia witnessed were kind of the model T version of what we saw in the 1890s. In my research, what I've done is I've laid out that, okay, the arrows of the 1850s that Del Shale writes about, they were kind of like the Model T. And then the 1890s airship, that would have been, I've got a chart on there called the Bosley chart that shows you exactly what I'm talking about.

Like the evolution of it? Yeah, kind of, to give an idea. Yeah. So these things were smaller. They could fit one or two people. And they would demonstrate them. Yeah, there's what I call the Bosley chart. I came up with that. So you see the, on the left is an 1850s arrow. And then there's the 1890s airship. Yeah, it's like a 58 Buick. And then, of course, the modern UFO is more like an 85 Porsche compared to. Oh, wow. And that kind of shows you. Now, I think the 1890s airship is a result of development that started right after the end of the Civil War, which I'm sure we'll get into that. So how did he describe those things moving?

Was there anything unique about it? It would just, he describes them raising up, and they would fly them around. around the countryside and then come back down. He didn't say they were like faster than normal or... He did not say they were faster than normal. Okay. That kind of thing didn't emerge until the 1890s. The way...

When was the first powered flight? Well, credited powered flight was, I think it was... He's got all kinds of AIs in front of them. He'll find it. The Wright brothers, right? Or is it the Wright brothers? I thought it depends on who you talk to right yeah first powered flight is oh here you go 1903 okay yeah okay so they are yeah the kid will burn or right flight yeah yeah and that's standard history right exactly huh what does it say

the longest flight that day was 59 seconds that covered 852 feet yeah interesting so you so this was quite a bit 50 years after, about 50 years after the first powered flight. Yeah, yeah. The first credited known, because I think they filmed, I think they had a movie camera out there. Because there were others that claimed to have done it before. There were French guys that had done it. There was some people claim a gentleman. I can't remember his name.

A movie was made about him, I think, in the 50s of Glenn Ford. A guy down by San Diego who had allegedly done the same thing. But they didn't take pictures or movie footage. Like in our times and no photos, it didn't happen. So, yeah, so this is all in the face of... What does this? Oh, there we have, Gustav Whitehead. These are uncredited, unverified.

I get undocumented accounts. Undocumented. Undocumented. Like 1901, 1980. 1890. Yeah. Oh, there's a lot of people that were credited to have possible. possibly been the first power. Yeah, it was being worked toward. Yeah. You know, it was being worked on.

So other than Del Shaw's drawings and these notebooks that he was creating, there was no other anecdotal corroboration or witness testimony or anything like that. Right. All we have is Del Shaw as far as the Sonor Air Club goes. Now, what about the 1890s airships? Those were reported. reported in newspapers in San Francisco and around the country, wherever they were seen. In fact, that's how we know about them are the newspaper reports and the multiple witnesses. The 1890s airship mystery gets way more interesting when you look closely at it. There are those who, again, amazingly just write it off and say it was an April Fool's Day joke.

Well, that's funny because the first one was reported in November. So that kind of shoots that down. These were witnessed by many people. And in one particular instance, there were a couple of known historical figures that you can pull up their pictures. Colonel Samuel Tillman. and Amos Dolbear. You're thinking, who are these guys? They were not rock stars of their day.

If people were making stuff up, you might expect them to say, oh, Mark Twain and Teddy Roosevelt stepped off of an airship. But no, a gentleman stepped off the airship and introduced himself as Samuel Tillman. That's Samuel Tillman right there. He was an Army colonel. I think he might have been retired at this point, but this might have been around the time that for a while during World War I,

he became the commandant of West Point. So he's a real guy. There's record of him. And Daniel List, dark journalist, he's done some incredibly deeper dive research on this guy right here to further corroborate who he was. Well, he and Amos Dolbear, who was an electrical engineer, they step off this airship and they talk to the witness, give their names and everything, and then get back on and go. Where is this? This was, I believe this might have been in North Texas, because these airships were seen from San Francisco all the way into Montana, Wyoming, Utah, and down into Texas.

interestingly, along much of what was called the Outlaw Trail, which suggests the other surprise in my research, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and at a place. But we'll get to that. So. And they, so the story is they were in Texas, these guys landed their airship, walked out and talked to somebody? Yeah, because they needed water. It was when the airships would land very, in multiple reports, they would need to get water. And so while they were collecting their water, the pilots would talk to them. Another interesting fellow who comes up, and he's a whole discussion in himself, known only by his last name. Wilson, the mysterious Wilson. There were two Wilson's identified with the 1890s airship mystery.

There was a Wilson in the Sonora Arrow Club. And I first heard of Wilson through my dad's weird exploit when he was in the Air Force in the late 50s. That was the first Wilson I'd heard of. So we've got this century of these individuals named Wilson, who seemed to be from the same family, who seemed to be involved with all these airship mysteries. And in my dad's case, development of alleged anti-gravity. research technology for the U.S. Air Force in the late 50s. But Wilson is one of the two Wilson's.

Hiram Wilson and Willard Wilson were two of the crewmen from the airships that were reported talking with witnesses, explaining that, hey, we're in Texas right now. We can fly down to South America and be back or Cuba and be back within a couple of hours or a few hours, that kind of thing. So they would talk about the abilities, and it was like they were very open, not trying to hide this once these things were seen. So the 1890s airship mystery was a really interesting era for this.

It was almost as if somebody was testing the waters of the public. Right. It was widely reported in the newspapers of the day, west of the Mississippi, mostly. unlike the Sonora Aeroclop Mystery for which we only have the one source. So strange. How many different witnesses were there for the 1980s airships? The 1890s?

The 1890s, the newspapers identify individuals that they spoke to, but they would describe it as a crowd of people or a group of people. In some cases, the whole city is watching, I believe, in San Francisco. that's the case. The whole city was seeing this thing fly over. Wow. And what's really interesting, and I get into it in one of my subsequent books, is Ambrose Beers. Ambrose Beers is a guy who was interested in strange things, wrote about strange, odd things. And he worked for the newspaper that was owned by William Randolph Hearst. Now, Hurst has long been alleged to have been one of the investors in the mystery airships.

Oh, really? Yeah. This is saying, by the way, Steve Googled it and the Wikipedia says over 100,000 witnesses. Yeah, through all the over the cities that they appeared. And yeah, it was a lot of people. So crazy. And this is why I say, when you look into this,

sure, there will be some that people are making it up. It's kind of like in our days with UFOs. People want to be part of the, Oh, I saw one too. And you can usually tell when they're making it up and I tend to try to be polite. Oh, really? You know. In some cases, I'll say BS.

But usually, you know, you'll be polite. But to write this off as nothing but an April Fool's joke and that all these newspapers and all these people were doing, that's, I wonder what the agenda of the skeptical individual. insisting that this was all a joke. Well, what's really crazy is it goes back into biblical stories of seeing things flying in the air, like mysterious things. Yeah, throughout several cultures and traditions. They've recorded history. They talk about this kind of stuff.

Well, there's the Vedic literature. I'd become a big fan of what was really going on a long time ago, because this Vedic stuff is just way too, it's why. but I think it will go to explain much of the mysteries of our lost past. Yeah. If we could just get people in the West have been turning on to this and they're starting to pay attention to the Vedic stuff more and take it seriously. But there's still a lot of resistance to it.

Yeah. Some of this ancient literature, I mean, even less ancient, biblical stuff. It just seems like, you know, whatever these people were seeing, either they had the most insane imaginations, or they were on an ungodly amount of psychedelic drugs, or they were seeing something that we just can't, you know what I mean? Maybe we just don't have the ability to perceive. I don't know. It's mysterious, but it's very interesting how it's been corroborated through time. I've put forth in, in the books, even laid it out that I think in those, times I do think extraterrestrials are real you know most I think most people do

yeah I think they have been coming here I think they do come here I think in the remote past they were here and interacting and so when you when you refer to these old writings like scriptures and old histories and stuff I think those folks back then they were interacting with people from other worlds. Yeah. Like the book of Enoch and stuff like that. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

What's interesting is the book of Enoch and the store and Plato's Atlantis is exactly the same story. Yeah, isn't that interesting? Enoch's city in the sky intrigues me. Now, I looked into that for my origin book and in that research. And all I could find for documented. source on that was from Joseph Smith's writings, the Mormon literature, which has its problems. My personal assessment on Smith is that I think he found something. I think he really did find

some type of documentation of past, lost civilization, but I think then he used it to create his religion. Yeah. That's what I think he did. I think these people might be on to something. The Scientologists. You think? I find it so strange that all of the top remote viewers were Scientologists.

Yeah. And for such a freaky, weird religious cult, like, they were never shut down for some reason. And I know they did a lot of crazy shit, like suing the IRS. And, you know, they have ways of, like, lots of. lobbying governments and stuff like that. And they're very resourceful with the money they have. But usually the shit that people, what I've noticed just doing this podcast is usually like the face value, the stuff that seems the most wacky at face value. After time, you start to realize like, there may be a couple kernels of truth in there somewhere.

Yeah, I'm a big believer in the nugget of truth approach. Yeah. When you're talking Scientology, you got to look at the man who started. at Elron Hubbard. Right. Friends with Jack Parsons. There you go. And a bit of a world explorer himself in his younger days.

So he was very much interested in, you know, these lost mysteries and such, obviously. Now, you have to wonder, okay, was he naval intelligence purely when he was associated with Jack Parsons? Or did naval intelligence select him, assign him to that? he was knowledgeable about the weird stuff, the arcane things. So yeah, I think that a guy like Hubbard absolutely learned some weird esoteric knowledge. And it went into what they do. Now, as far as their ability to survive, even with the scandals and the, quite frankly, bad things you hear about them. Oh, my God. Like an unbelievable amount of negative press. Yeah. So you wonder, but when you

point to the guys who developed remote viewing, that was developed by the U.S. government, right? In, in connections with- Was it developed by them or was it just co-opted and funded by them after they found? And then greatly advanced. I would say that we probably haven't heard the most extraordinary. I'm pretty sure we probably haven't heard. We've heard the tip of the iceberg probably. Exactly. I'm sure McMonigle has done things that would blow your mind even more if you knew them. You know, Joseph McMonigle, who's considered the best one. What if remote viewing was a fake operation they made up and threw some money at as they get a jail free card because we actually had spies in other places. And when we found shit out,

we didn't want to cause any chaos. We said, oh, no, we had this remote viewing program we're doing. Don't worry. We don't have any intelligence people embedded in your country. And that's reasonable. I don't know if I believe that, but it's a, it's a, you know, possible. Coming from the perspective of having been in the community, the intelligence and counterintelligence community, which they're all the same community. That does sound operationally rational. That's something that they would do. Oh, yeah, this covering for a much more mundane down-to-earth source.

If it weren't for the fact that when you try the stuff, it works to a degree. And so then you're back to, okay, wait a minute. Then are they really doing this? Now, what I found interesting, I noticed something about a couple of novels, a couple of works of fiction. One of them was published in 1970, titled Time and Again. And, oh, boy, the author's name is Jack Finney, I'm sorry, Jack Finney, the great Jack Finney, who had written time travel stories in the 50s. He had written for Outer Limits, you know, Twilight Zone even, I think.

He was friends with George Clayton Johnson, another Twilight Zone author, and Richard Matheson and Ray Bradbury and all those guys. So he writes this novel time and again, this published in 1970. And when you read that novel and read his description of how their time travel works, you're saying that's the remote viewing program. How it worked in the novel is that the protagonist is recruited into this ultra-secret DoD U.S. Army program in a warehouse. It's headquartered in a warehouse in Manhattan, and they have these little cubicles. And in each cubicle, everything is the trappings of a particular era, whether it's Rome, whether it's the Renaissance.

And so the individual who's supposed to time travel using his mind dresses and lives the part in that cubicle. And the idea is to use the power of the mind to literally transport yourself back in time. Oh, wow. The protagonist of the novel is the first one. Well, he's not the first one, but he's the most successful at it. Obviously, you know, you've got to have a novel. And so I immediately, when I learned about the RV program, I thought, thought of that novel because I had read it years before and I'm thinking, okay, we're told that RV, we're told that RV emerges sometime between 70 and 75.

But here's this novel in 70 that pretty much virtually describes kind of the setup for, you know, remote viewing. And we're told that remote viewers can look through time. So then you have in 1975, you have the novel bid time return, which became very famous under the phone. title, Somewhere in Time, the movie with Christopher Reeve and Jane Seymour, written by Richard Matheson, in which he uses the power of his mind to transport himself back in the case of the movie 1912, because he falls in love with the actress, you know, that he sees in a picture in the Hall of History of the Hotel. And again, it's the same process as what Jack Finney wrote about and published, by 1970.

Yeah. So I wonder, were they actually dabbling with what we call remote viewing long before we're told that they did? And when you go back to how MK Ultra came to the United States during the World War II era, it starts getting a little interesting there as far as, as far as I'm concerned. regarding the timeline. When you're talking the U.S. government, particularly the military, if it like an aircraft, if you're told, oh, this is our most advanced aircraft and this is its altitude ceiling and this is its top speed, well, if you've been in that world,

you come to realize, okay, that's definitely not the most advanced aircraft we have because that's going to be secret. And even the aircraft they're telling you about, oh, its ceiling is going to be They're telling you about 20%. They're keeping it short, you might say, and it goes faster. That's just the way you do it. And I got no problem with that. Right. Smart.

So when I hear that, well, remote viewing was started by these guys and, well, it started in, you know, around 72 or 73, whenever that was, I, from my perspective, I go, okay, there's these other possibilities. and I think it started sooner than that personally. And I think that perhaps Finney, who when I looked into it, he had his background in the military, so did Richard Matheson. I think they had their, they still had their contacts. They still had their sources.

And maybe, for all we know, maybe Finney was commissioned to, you know, hey, take this, write something about it. You know, we want to kind of get it out there, get the idea out there for whatever reason. The reason could be what you said that let's start planting seeds that we're messing with this. Because remember, we were learning during that era, the 60s, that the Russians were dabbling and messing with all this stuff. So if they were doing it, we had to do it. So you could even say, well, if they were lying about it to fool everybody, then we're going to lie about it.

It goes on it. Or they saw that we or they were lying, I don't know, who knows? The original person or group or country that was doing that was trying to deceive or misdirect. And then their country didn't realize that and said, oh shit, they're figuring out something that we don't know anything about. Exactly. We got to look into it. Exactly. Until they find out.

Yeah. Oh, wait a minute. Right. Or until they find out the other. Like, oh, shoot, this stuff's real. Yeah. Now, my dabblings, because I'm not an expert RV person, my. My dabblings were a gentleman emerged in April of 2007.

A total stranger calls me, says he got my number from a mutual contact. And we talked for three and a half hours. This guy claimed to be former naval intelligence. And we talked for hours about weird experiences and stuff. And ultimately, he said, I want to train you in remote viewing. Have you heard of him? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I heard about it.

actually I'd heard about it in 1986 from my mentor, which that gets into my weird career stuff. But I had heard about this in 1986, but I had never pursued learning it. I was not trained in it during my government career, interestingly enough. So I said, sure, yeah. And he sent me discs. turned out to be the Ed Dames version, which I subsequently learned. Okay.

As I was learning it, I became suspicious of, hmm, the test images given seemed to suspiciously follow the shape of when you do the ideogram that's supposed to be like the automatic writing part. Well, your natural, most of my ideograms, most of them I could show you over the several that I've done, they all look, it's a squiggle, right? A pointed squiggle. Oh, funny thing that the first targets have points on them. And what I became suspicious about that was, oh, that's a good way to convince somebody that they're really doing this. Like show an image of a barn with a pointed roof like that. Well, that's going to look like your squibious.

Right. Show the Statue of Liberty with the pointed crown. Well, that's going to look like the, oh, look at this. I'm doing remote viewing. So I'm kind of, I have a foot in two worlds. Yeah. Yeah, I love the weird stuff. Oh, yeah.

And there is more to this existence. But then because of what I was professionally, I always have to remind myself, okay, you know, don't let this fool you. Be skeptical of it. It's kind of like when the Vatican sends the guy out to eliminate all other possibilities rather than demonic possession. You know, like, oh, no, it's a psychiatric problem. Oh, no, you're faking it. I kind of feel like that guy.

I'm a believer in these things, but I know the value in critical thinking. And so that's kind of the position. So when I say, hey, I think there's something to this, I'm being, I mean, I'm always honest and sincere. But didn't that Vatican guy, though, wasn't he always incentivized to tell him it was the devil? Because there's that old saying, the devil's the church's best friend because it keeps him in business. Well, I think, yeah, there was, in general, they would have guys that they would send out to let's eliminate the mundane first. But that's another thing I have an issue with, but there's a whole other discussion with everything being the devil. Right.

You bring up a good point there. And right now, that's really popular with certain things. Oh, yeah, totally. That I think partially could be, but it doesn't explain at all. That's a meandering away from. So, yeah, it's very easy to get. And it's very easy to be convinced about something and to believe in something when it has like profound meaning. You know, when you make it meaningful to somebody.

Like, for example, the whole synchronicity thing. Where like if you're thinking about somebody that you haven't talked to in a long time, all of a sudden they call you. Like, oh my God, that has so much meaning. Right? Because like the probability of that happening is almost impossible. So there must be what we must have been like telepathically connected. at that moment. But then, you know, you do the math and how many times have you thought about people you haven't talked to in a long time? And they never called you. Right. Right.

Yeah, you know, for the hundred times you did it, it worked twice. Oh, there's something. Right. The one time it happens, it just has so much meaning you never forget it. Right. But you forget all the other times that no one ever called you. Yeah, of course. Those are the inconvenient. Yeah. Interesting, you'd bring that up because maybe we, maybe we should man over to my career stuff because that really formed me who I am as a person and then formed who I am as a researcher writer. I had a mentor who I talk about and have written about, and he really, he was tailoring me for something. But it really, for me, all started in December of 1979. I wake up one, I'm 16, just a couple of months.

I wake up one Sunday morning and the first thing I do is look at my hands and I'm thinking, these, these aren't my hands. Now you've got to remember, I'm kind of a straight arrow. I'm a nerd. I haven't smoked weed even a puff to this day and I'm 62. So I was a nerdy kid. I didn't, it wasn't like I'd come off a bender or something, you know. Right.

It was, you know, I'm looking like, these just woke and waking up my hands. And I look at the wall and I'm seeing a texture, the texture of the wall in a way that I'm not used to. I get up and I recall through that day, I walk through the house and there's my sisters. And I remember thinking, okay, there's my sisters. And oh, okay, there's my mom in the kitchen. It was just what's going on here. I just felt weird. And there had been some type of weird shifting in my consciousness.

It was like an awakening. And over the course of the next several months, I had this intense focus or sensing. You know, I could sense when there was some type of stress going on between people. It was just really weird. And I couldn't explain it. I obviously still can't explain it now, just what I was going through. A little over a year after that, now we're into January of 1981. I have this dream, the most vivid, lucid dream I had ever had.

And over the course of about 20 years, parts of that dream came true. I kid you not. I don't know how to explain it, but I would, one time I was in the 90s, I was coming back from deployment with the Air Force. I was in Germany. I go to this little village, Rudersheim, and I turn a corner, and there's a landscape that I had seen in this dream in 1981. Stuff like that. All sorts of weird things like that.

So that happens in January of 81. And in February of 81, I have my Disneyland experience, which led to the strange thing I write about in my book, Latitude 33, the Disneyland stuff. So these kinds of things are going on. I mean, I could tell you a dozen more stories. But what was interesting that I noticed was that this mentor, who's an uncle of mine, he visited us about seven months or so before I had that awakening in 79. And when he was visiting, he seemed mostly interested in me. He's one of my mom's brothers.

And he would sit there and he would look at me. And then he would just make small talk, but he would look at me. And I noticed, I'm like, okay, you know, I got three ears or something. So a few years later, after the Disneyland thing, I finished college. It's 1986. And that's when he starts overtly pitching me to work for Uncle Sam. But he starts the conversation with, oh, you know, you're interested in you, and strange phenomena and stuff like that.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And he tells me his own story of when he was in the Army. He had been recruited in the Army in 1950. He ended up in 101st Airborne and went into Army intelligence and such. But he told me about his own weird experience with seeing this figure, this entity he called the Blue Lady, really crazy stuff. And while he's telling me this, and this could have some significance, I think,

down the road in the story, he's telling me about the blue lady, and I start trembling. Just this weird. I don't know what he was doing if he was doing something with his voice or whatever, but I was trembling and getting kind of slightly nauseous. It was just weird.

Anyway, the conversation ended with if you really want to learn more about these things, you should go to work for the government. Like, really? And goes, yeah. Yeah, go get into, be a federal agent or whatever. And I'm a young guy out of college. Okay.

That sounds cool. You know. And so that began his formal mentorship of me. That was in spring of 86. And by December of 86, I drove back. He's from Alabama. He passed. He passed away in 2016.

But at the time, he was living in Alabama. That's where my mom's from. And I drive back there to visit him, and he tells me more weird stories. But he told me, bring a suit and tie. I'm going to have you pay a visit to someplace. Okay. So I did that. He had me.

I get back there. He has me drive. to Huntsville. Oh boy. The night before I go, he has me fill out what's called an SF80, a standard form 80, just a basic employment application for the U.S. government, all the agency's basic level use them. He goes, fill this out, and tomorrow you're going to drive to Huntsville, and you're going to take this to building number such and such to the back door. This is how my career started. So I go up there, Redstone Arsenal, the NASA installation. It's a NASA building.

I knock on the door. A guy pops out, are you Walter? Yes, I am. You got something for me? I handed it to him. Thank you. Okay, go enjoy the museum. And that was it.

I never worked for NASA. I never got interviewed by NASA. But I turned my first government application into the back door of a NASA office at Huntsville with all its murky stuff, right? So what happened when you went inside? I didn't go inside. Oh. He just took it, closed the, it said, go enjoy the museum, which, you know, the grounds. And that was it.

He had me then the following November, he instructed me to go apply to the FBI, which I did at the Riverside Office. I went in and turned in an application there. Now, when you go to work for the FBI, it usually takes about 18 months to your background. A year and a half, you're waiting to start work. I turned my application in in November of 87. And by the beginning of February, they had finished my background investigation. And one of the sources, references that I gave them, she calls me and she says, hey, the guy just came by and interviewed me for your background.

Oh, okay, great. The next day, she calls and says, these other two guys came by. And they interviewed me again for your background. And I told them that I had already done this. And they said, well, we're the FBI. We do our own backgrounds. Who was this? She goes, I don't know.

He showed me a badge. So there were two agencies doing my background. And by the middle of February, I'm getting a call. Congratulations, Walter Report for Duty at L.A. 11,000 Wilshire Boulevard on the 14th of March, 1988 is when I started. And when I showed up to walk in. Now, my mentor had said, take whatever they offer you. They know you have a college degree.

Don't worry about that. Take whatever they are for you. So I accepted a GS3 mail clerk position just to get in the door. So I'm there with about a dozen other newbies, you know, going in to be a male clerk. And I and a young lady get pulled out of the line and we're each taken to separate rooms. It's an empty room with just the chair I'm in and two in front of me. And I'm waiting and I'm thinking, okay, who in my? my family's the drug dealer I didn't know about, you know, or something like that. And it wasn't

that. These two agents come in and they say, hey, we're with the special support group. We do counterintelligence surveillance under cover, under shallow cover. And we think you're uniquely qualified for this. Fill out this in-house 14-page thing. Get it back to us as soon as possible. So I spent 45 days as a male clerk and then was promoted to evidence technician. And I was an evidence technician for six months when I got a call. I had gotten married that summer to my first wife and we had transferred up to the San Francisco division. Anyway, I've been an evidence technician for six months when I get a call from the supervisor of the surveillance team in San Francisco saying, is this Walter Bosley? Yes. Okay, I'm supposed to interview you. He was told, bring him up,

interview him. And that's how my counterintelligence career started. I was sent off to my first round of spook training, spy training at Quantico. And I was on an undercover surveillance team for a while in San Francisco. And then... Oh, yeah, you're hunting down the hells angels or... No, just Russian spies. Russian spies? Yes. Wow. Yeah, this was Soviets. I'm sorry, because it was still the Cold War. Did you find any? Oh, yeah, we followed them every day. We followed the known and suspected KGB and GRU agents working out of... the Green Street consulate in San Francisco. I think it moved after the...

In fact, the consulate was still there, I think after the 89 earthquake, but the people who lived, the Russians who lived around there, they moved pretty quickly because the earthquake damage. But yeah, that's who I worked against in San Francisco, the teams worked against.

And then I passed the language training. And the language training. Oh, I'm sorry, the language test, aptitude test. And they were going to send me to link. They said, we're sending you to, you scored the highest in the division. So we're sending you to Russian training. I'm like, great.

I already live in San Jose. I just, you know, pack a bag and be in Monterey for 11 months. And they go, well, no, not exactly. You're going to be in the Baltimore division because we're sending you to a school at Fort Meade. And I'm like, okay. Here's what's interesting. is I was there with nine other FBI people from all over the country for a basic Russian language course being taught by the NSA Cryptologic School at what's called the Fort Meade Annex.

And there were nine FBI people and one NSA employee, a real quiet young woman. And she never, during those 11 months, she never socialized with us. Out of this 11 months, two couples emerged, me and my second wife, among them, and, you know, ended up getting married. We were all close. I mean, real close. But the NSA employee, she would only see us Monday through Friday during the training hours. And when we would step out and take a break, you could see through the fence an area of Fort Meade where there was this particular building that I remembered, because I would see it every day for a year. Okay. So, you know, I pass Russian language course and I go to New York. I'm in New York for three years working on a Cold War operation that had been going on for 15 years and the final years of the Cold War working against GRU and KGB agents who were undercover in Manhattan. Yeah, that was pretty cool. That was fun. And my mentor, that's another part of this, my mentor is teaching me all sorts of weird stuff and he says, you need to know this stuff because there's people that

expecting you to know it, know how to do. This story is just so wild, Danny. When I look back on this whole thing, what I'm leading to with this Russian training is, I learned years later that the reason the FBI language class that I was in was sent to Fort Meade instead of Monterey, which is where the language school is for the government, is because we were,

used as training targets for the RV program. And I got this confirmation essentially from Lynn Buchanan. When I had the opportunity to meet Lynn Buchanan a few years ago, I'm with a group of folks at his house, and everyone's asking the questions when it was my turn to pipe up. I told him, you know, I was in this training program for language, Fort Meade back in, you know, 89, 90, and he's smiling and nodding. I said the things I've learned about remote viewing since then and the strange thing,

would they have used unwitting people perhaps our language class as targets for training? And he smiled, nodded. And then I told him about the 10th person in the class. It was an NSA employee. And he knew her. He described her. No way. And she was there to confirm the target or something.

And she was, if you're familiar with the RV, you know how they'll use people as antennas. Oh, no, I wasn't aware of that. Oh, yeah. They can send, you can send somebody near a target and then you can kind of use them as a booster. That's my understanding of it. Whoa. Yeah. Specific people?

Oh, just anybody. Like, they could be whitting or unwitting. Now, the examples I've seen, they're whitting. But from what I understand and from what I've heard from something. So she's like a human security camera or something. The fact that she's there and she was witting is my understanding. Okay. Is it helped them focus in on her and then they could get to each one of us.

Interesting. It's wild. But I, you know, Lynn Buchanan. I mean, so there was our class and then there was the class after ours. And then after that, the Bureau started sending everybody to Monterey again. Wow. So they only did those couple of... And this was in like the early 90s?

This was 89. I reported to that in October of 89 and finished in September of 90. And it was at the Fort Meade Annex. Yeah, one of the interesting things about that whole Benowitz story. Yeah. was that they were trying, from what I understand, they were trying to use him as like a conduit of disinfo to poison the well of the whole Mufon community

because they thought that Mufon was infiltrated by Soviet spies. Yes, that was, when I was an OSI agent in the mid-90s, that's when I first heard about Rick Doty. Because I had the same concern out in California was, you know, these foreign agents could use our UFO groups to get close to bases. In other words, go out there on the other side of the fence at Edwards, right? And while all the American UFO enthusiasts are going like this with their stuff, the spy's going like that looking in the base, right?

That's the concern. So when I brought it up as a development project to my boss, that's when they inform me, okay, we get your concept. We're not opposed to it, but we got to tell you about this guy, Rick Doty. And he was presented to me as a cautionary tale. Now, that said, the reason I recommend people read Greg Bishop's Project Beta book is that I came away from that between what's reported in that book and my personal experience.

I don't demonize Rick Doty the way a lot of people do because it is my opinion that the NSA drove Paul Benowitz crazy, not Rick Doty, not OSI, and not Bill Moore. Because on record, they tried to tell Paul. Hey, Paul, no, you're going a little too far with this. But when you read the stuff, the audio phenomena and certain, I guess you'd call it video phenomena, the NSA was messing with Benowitz's house. They were projecting and broadcasting things in.

And it's my cross the street or something. Yeah, exactly. And it's my personal, professional opinion that it's the NSA that really hurt Paul Benowitz. And Rick Doty was just meeting with, he was meeting with him in person. It was his job. Tracking him. Yeah, it was his, you know, it's his job as an agent in counterintelligence. There's somebody who's paying attention to something sensitive on the base.

You got to find out, okay, what's going on here? Is there anybody behind this? If there is, is the person witting or unwitting? Right. That kind of thing. Now, unfortunately, I've said in the past, if the Air Force has something advanced, flying around in the skies, and the general public wants to think, oh, it's from another world.

Okay, cool. That makes my job easier as an agent protecting this stuff. That's different from one-on-one telling somebody, oh, yeah, it's aliens. Oh, yeah, you're right. To me, I would draw the line before doing that because then you are getting into putting stick. Because you're, particularly if they know you as a government agent, okay, they're going to take your, a lot of people are going to be inclined to take your word for when you say things like that. Okay?

And then you're playing with people's psychology. And I'm personally opposed to that. So I think that there was a little too much of that, you know, encouraging that, oh, it was this otherworldly thing when it was known that it was technology. Do you think there's any connection to the 1950s and 1890s airship stuff and what the Navy pilots were seeing? Do you think this is like maybe part of the same lineage? not I want to say, I was going to say not directly, but in a general sense, the natural course of development of technology. Yes, I have found what I think is a connection between the 1850s Sonora Aeroclub stuff and the 1890s airship mystery, which means there was another individual, Solomon Andrews, who demonstrated a controlled flying.

machine for members of Abraham Lincoln's War Department during the Civil War. This was reported in the newspaper, a newspaper in D.C. Yeah, this guy contacted Lincoln and said, I have this thing. And Lincoln said, oh, heck, yeah, we're interested in that. I'm going to order Edwin Stanton to have representatives, you know, meet with you so you can demonstrate this. And he did. And history tells us that the war department said, hey, we're in the middle of this conflict.

We can't fool with this right now. thank you but no thank you. I suspect that they were very interested, but because it was during the war, they had to put it on hold. But I think that Solomon Andrews was either pursuing the same arcane technological research that members of the Sonora Arrow Club had been pursuing, or Andrews was acquainted with possibly. Yeah, that's the Aeron. And that's Solomon Andrews there on the left. But it was called the Aeron, the A-E-R-O-N.

And that's a drawing of what Andrews demonstrated. Now, people say, well, to Lincoln. Members of Lincoln's war cabinet. Right. Members of our Department of Defense, essentially. Wow. Now, people say, oh, well, those are balloons. Yeah, it looks like balloons.

The thing was this was controllable far beyond a balloon of the day. This was not just a balloon, not just a dirigible. How the fuck would they use this during the Civil War? Dropping bombs. Oh, yeah, true. But here's the thing. They were already using balloons for that. So, you know, I could see during the war saying, okay, this is nice.

Right. So I think that the U.S., I've proposed this. I think that at the end of the Civil War, possibly the very first black technology project was development of what became the 1890s airships because you have about a 30-year period before a potential development before these 1890s airships start appearing

everywhere. And they're mostly all over the west. You have a guy like Samuel Tillman, who we talked about earlier, who steps off one of these airships. When you look at his background as an Army officer, he was a scientist. He was a chemist and a cartographer. Well, when you get into the airship mystery, including the Sonora Arrow Club, there's a lot of chemistry involved. Okay, along with the other engineering. And what's one of the useful things about an airship? Mapping, cartography. Those are an example of two of the specialties that Samuel Tillman had.

And his career started in the 1860s. So his whole career spans what would have been the secret development, hidden development of this airship technology into the 1890s when he steps off one of these things and identifies himself. This is why I suggest that the 1890s airships were developed by this, probably the, maybe not the first, but one of the early coalitions between the U.S. government and private industrialists. Interesting. And they brought their resources together and that's how we had the 1890s airship mystery. Because when you look at the technology, the way people describe, because they would bring people on board. Can you pull up like illustrations

of the 1890s airships specifically? They would describe, for instance, the Sonora Air Club. We know through Del Shale that there was that rotating generator cone, which is the bell, which I showed you early. Right. Okay. They would describe spinning, rotating objects and devices on the 1890s airships. Airships, mystery airships. And this was... Oh, it looks like a propeller.

Oh, yeah. It was like four propellers on the blimp. Essentially, it was... Go to the left? It was the same technology only more advanced as what was on the Sonora Aero Club's devices. It is interesting. it looked that thing on top kind of looks like a tick-tack shape it's like a tick-tack with wings right and then what about the horton brothers the horton brothers come along during world war two okay so

here what you've got for that thread you asked about how does that lead to today's stuff what you've got clearly with the in my opinion with the sonora air club and the 1890s airship mystery you've got a thread yes of the pursuit of specifically anti-gravity technology technology in the 19th century. So to what extent rudimentary proof of concept that they had developed that up to the 20th century, right? Then you get into the 20th century, right? And that starts, the airships disappear, oddly.

But a couple of decades or so, we start having an emergence of other types of UFOs. Roswell? Yeah, by the late 40s. So clearly, somebody has continued the pursuit of anti-gravity technology, which we know is true because through the 50s, in open sources they were talking about it. And then we have T. Townsend Brown. Yes. And in 1958, a lid is clamped down on public discussion. So that's the late 50s.

So by the time we get to 2004. All of a sudden, it emerges again. Yeah, who knows how far they developed it. Now, I was one of the, in my circles in the community back in 2017 when the Tick-Tac was being talked about. I got a lot of, you know, ire and frustration at me because my first assessment was, oh, that's some type of technology that was being tested. Right. Why would they test it on pilots? Well, first of all, why wouldn't they test it on pilots?

Exactly. I said they want an honest human reaction to, you know, so they're not going to tell the pilots what they're seeing are to expect this. But what if they freaked out and shot it down? Their planes were unarmed. They were doing a proficiency sortie off of San Diego. Well, the people in the city would have seen it. No, it was so far out to sea. Way offshore.

And it's in that specific zone where technology is tested. So all the elements were there that it was clearly something. But people didn't want to believe it because it's exciting. It's different, everything. And then eventually, of course, it's come out that, yeah, it was, I still find it interesting that, you know, the shapes of these things. But now I just recently heard, I think it was someone you were talking about, talking to about this, where it was holographic. I think TD Barnes was talking. about that. Yeah, he was at Area 51. He was working on the lasers at the projections.

Right. And that to me is pretty interesting. I mean, we know that that's been around for decades. I've talked about that. You guys talked about it. It's been written about and such, but I still find it fascinating that that can be done. To be used. And there's declassified Peter Levenda told us about this declassified program using the same technology to project a 3D image of Jesus Christ over Havana. And it would talk to the people telling them to overthrow their government. And I think I heard that they would use various figures depending upon the, they could use various figures or plan to depending upon the culture.

They're, you know, religion or something. They could use. And that TikTok moved like a laser pointer the way he described it. Yeah. That was when I was listening to Barnes talk about that, To me, that just, it clicked. Like, oh, yeah, okay, that's very logical. And it's spoofing the radar.

And people have to keep in mind, I think this, I know it's not very popular with some folks, particularly the devotees of the ET hypothesis. But we're in this era where they're wanting to control the narrative. So there's gonna be perception management stuff put out there. Of course. And when I say they, I mean the national security community, of course, particularly the military industrial complex. They've got the big stake in this. And Ryan Graves talks about this specific object that he saw that flew right in between him and another plane that he was flying in tandem with. He said they were flying from wing to wing with maybe, I don't know, like 50 yards between them or something like this. And he saw a cute. cube inside of a sphere.

Yeah. And there was a patent for a balloon or some sort of a radar spoofing device for the exact same thing. There's an article written about this. If you, I forget the name of the website, but it's like a, it's like a war reporting technology website, where they show the patent of this radar device, radar deflection. device that is a cube within a sphere. And it's wild. They show the whole thing.

Yeah, I've seen that. What is that? I've seen that. It is. See if you find the actual article. Type in, yeah, radar defector, balloon. Yeah, that right there. That's it.

There it is. Oh, yeah, there it is. Click on that link. Click visit. Okay, this isn't the original article I was referring to, but that it gives you the, this might show the patent. Russia is now using balloons to trick Ukraine. air defense. Scroll down see if it shows us the exact. So that's what's inside the balloon.

No, this isn't the article I'm thinking of. But that image that you had before this, before you clicked onto the article, that was the image from that patent. I think US was, oh, there it is, TWZ to the left, the jet, the war zone. That's the article I was talking about. So are some of the UFO Navy pilots encountering actual airborne radar deflectors? So that is a cube within a sphere. And if you scroll down, or that's not really a cube, but that looks like a cube. You know, flying when you're up there in a jet. Look, USPTO, it shows you the US Patent Office link to that thing. You might, that might look like a cube to you when it's zipping by it. Yeah, and you've got all the stuff you're thinking about. Yeah, cube in a sphere. Right.

And on top of that, you know, when you see all these Congress people doing these big televised events and making this big spectacle out of non-human intelligence, N.H.I. And they're not talking about secret military craft at all. It really sends out a lot of red flags for me. I'm like, I'm pinging on like 12. We're not getting anything from the government on this. It's dog and pony. Yes, for sure. I, again, mentioning my friend Greg Bishop, he once said something years ago that it's always stuck with me. And that is when you're seeing the extraordinary thing or when somebody's saying, hey, look at this, look over here, turn around and look behind you. Because the real show might be what they're trying to distract you from. And I think that's what this is.

This is why I say, look, folks, I'm not anti-E-T. I absolutely think they exist. I have no problem with visitors from other worlds coming here. But it may not be the version that's popular. It could be something you hadn't thought of or something that's just not, again, not the popular version. What is Joseph Farrell's take on all this stuff? Joseph, he is kind of along the lines we are where,

okay, yeah, this is technology that's being, dangled in front of us. Oh, what do you think of that? Oh, where could that be from? And then, you know, the Koi government people. Oh, my, is this from another world? Yeah. But he, the big overarching view of his books,

and pretty much he's saying, and he's told me this, he thinks someone's on their way back here. When I say back, they've been here before. They're on their way back. He thinks that the governments, the leaders, so to speak, they know this. And a lot of the technology development has somewhat of a drastic element to it because what they may know about who's coming back, which Joseph refers to us, the cousins, might be potentially overwhelming. as far as what we can respond to. And that that might be the concern,

that it's just a ticking clock. And now we've heard versions of this. So that's what he thinks. That's all his books that he writes about. What he's trying to do is show the reader the pieces of why he thinks this. The lost technology of the past, maybe why it was developed, maybe why, you know, somebody's on their way back here.

But that's what he thinks. When does he think they were here last? We're talking, you know, the ancient times. Like prehistory? Prehistory. The Vedic era. Are you familiar with his Giza Death Star research? Vaguely.

Yeah, where he thinks the Giza pyramid complex was weaponized. It was it was an energy device and it was weaponized. He thinks it's even possible and forgive me Joseph if I'm getting the details wrong but he thinks it's possible that whatever happened on Mars may have had to do with what was being done with the Giza pyramids. It's his cosmic war theory is that there were parties out there that Like a war between Mars and Earth? War between Mars and Earth or a third party and Earth got involved. Yeah, that's all in the mix.

Oh, wow. And I think there's something to that. There are those who look at the whole Atlantis. My view of Atlantis isn't just the literal, it was a city-state. I think Atlantis was more of a, if they even called themselves that, more of a civilization that kind of spread out. You know, it was a civilization at a certain level. And it might be that when you look at the legend, and we talked about a nugget of truth somewhere in there, how they messed around with, you know, because Edgar Casey says this, and others say they messed around with technology and destroyed themselves, that kind of thing.

Earth might have been the bad guys in this conflict, or at least whoever was battling it out with Mars and whoever else was up there. I think that there was a conflict, a cosmic conflict, and the losers ended up here. And that explains the possibly the Ketzelkawadil, the Veracotia, the Tuudadena, the Tudadidanan, these people, this culture, this mysterious culture that emerged and taught earth-based humans' technologies like agriculture and astronomy and you've heard of this. Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think they were the, they were losers in maybe a big battle or some type of conflict going on. And they came here. And they've been theoretically, hypothetically, trying to develop us up

to the point to where we can meet the challenge when their foes return or arrive. So this is like the quetzukawato, Prometheus, Noah type archetype? And who does he believe that those archetypes were based from? Like where were they from? My view is that they came from another world, another planet, what have you, and they ended up here after being... It was like possibly some type of civil war going on. Now, some people have said the Ananaki.

I've used that example. let's say the Ananaki, they're having an internal conflict, factions of the Ananaki. We read about this in some of the stuff with how, you know, some of the Ananaki, when we were created to be gold mining slaves, right? How some of them took pity on us and said, hey, wait a minute, these are our creations, we shouldn't treat them this way, when the other ones were like, no, no, no, they're just our property. And there was a big conflict.

and there was a war between them. It could be that whatever the nugget of truth to that story is, I think, is what we're talking about here. And they would be the Ketzel-Kawadl, the Veracotia, and on and so forth. The people who emerge and say, hey, we're going to teach you this, teach you that, to bring you up to speed. I see. It could be wrong.

It could be all nonsense. Yeah, it could be. The problem is all those stories are so interesting. Yeah. You know? And it really gets squarely when you have government officials trying to tell you what they think the truth is. Yeah, because can we ever trust them? They always have an agenda.

They always have an agenda. I've been of the mind that if people really want to know the truth about UFOs or things like this is, go do your own researching and do your best to keep it private. I've thrown the number out five years. Like go out and do your own research on UFOs. Five years, don't say a word. Don't write a book about it. Don't go on podcasts.

Don't go on TV. Keep it really private. But go out there and interview witnesses and go to the places where things are seen. And what I've told people when I suggest that is you might be. really amazed at the attention you get. Because if you're out there digging into these things, but you're not being public about it, the people who know the truth, they're going to notice. Really? Yeah, they're going to say, this person is keeping whatever they're seeing and finding private, but they're out at that place and that place and, you know, they're, what do they know?

What are they figuring out? And then the other side of that, too, is the phenomena. itself. If there is something to it, if there are people from other worlds and dimensions that are, you know, the explanation for the real mysterious UFO cases, they're going to present themselves if you're sincerely seeking them. If you're not doing it just for fame or money, I think that's going to be noticed and you might be surprised with the positive results you get. But just like any of this weird stuff, you got to be prepared for the high strangeness that comes with it. Because whatever the truth is, you know, the hitchhiker effect.

Yeah. There's you are you are going there is something weird about our reality. Now whether what we think about UFOs or ghosts on that has any accuracy or not, there is something weird about our reality. And, you know, I mentioned that my mentor, sure, he guided my career where, yeah, I went to work for the FBI and then I went to the Air Force and so forth. But this is the same guy that was teaching me to learn psychic stuff. He taught me necromancy for crying out loud. Oh, yeah. I was working for the FBI in Manhattan when he taught me specifically a method of necromancy and told me, get out there and do this and develop this skill.

there are people expecting you to know this. Can you explain for people who don't know what this is? Mecremanty is raising dead spirits and getting information from them. Yeah, exactly. And I'm like, okay. And he says, there's people expecting you to know this. And I asked, of course, who? What people?

You don't need to know that yet. Okay, but there I was. I was living on Long Island, working for the FBI in Manhattan. and I would go to the old Kings. Oh, shoot, it's an old colonial cemetery on Long Island. Northport, the old Northport Cemetery. You can see it online. Okay.

And I, under his instructions, I picked a person who'd been dead for over a century. And I'd be out there doing it, trying to contact the person. I'll tell you, no ghost ever emerged. I didn't hear a voice in my head. And believe me, at one point, I thought, okay, are his buddies somewhere with a camera and a van, you know, just getting a good laugh? Is this a hazing ritual? Yeah, is this a hazing thing? Or is this testing me to see if I will follow, you know, the wild instructions?

And then later, when I got into, I was chief of double agent operations for OSI at Wright Patterson for a few years. And when I got into being a case officer doing double agentry and stuff and you learn handling. I was just laughing my ass off at times because I would think back to the things he would tell me and say, okay, and I'm thinking, oh, that was just beautiful handling. Wow. You know, I thought, okay, was he doing this to me just to see how gullible? You know, I was. Of course, that crossed my mind because it's looking back on it when I learned handling techniques, I realized, oh, he was handling techniques beautifully. he was using them on me.

Now, one thing he told me in the mid-90s, you might find this interesting, was about Antarctica. And there's a bunch of details to it that we can talk about some time. But the basics were, he tells me this in 1996, remember? This is 1996, he's telling me, that in Antarctica, around 1960, there was something found under the ice.

They found this giant hole, a tunnel or whatever. And they sent a team in there, and they found this giant machinery, huge machinery that was very old. And then they encountered some people that were down there and half the team went nuts, right? Now, he told you this. He told me this in 96.

And of course, now don't you be talking about this stuff? And by this time, in 96, I'm an Air Force officer. I'm an OSI agent. So, you know, he says, don't talk about it. I'm not going to talk about it. So, what? 10 or so years pass, I'm out of working for Uncle Sam, 10 or 15 years, and I'm in the UFO world that I'm in now.

And suddenly it becomes popular to talk about Antarctica and this big hole or tunnel that was found and this weird machinery. And I'm sitting or listening to this narrative. And they're talking like, oh, this was just discovered. And I'm thinking, okay, I was told this same story in 96 and that it happened in 1960. My thought was, oh, this was inking the water. Here I am. Somebody wants to test if I'm trustworthy. So they tell me this narrative, this mysterious Antarctica narrative, but don't you tell anybody?

And of course, I didn't. But I'm looking at this emerging as a popular narrative in UFO world. Right? And I'm thinking, oh, somebody talked. Somebody was told this same story. This ink was dropped. Somebody chose to run their mouth about it. You think it was like some sort of strategic deception? Yeah, well, yeah, I think it was just one of those inking of the water.

Testing a source. We tell you something wild. If you're gonna run your mouth about it or not, I think that's what happened. Somebody used that. Now, am I saying there's nothing weird about Antarctica? No. because I think there is something under that ice.

But I just found it interesting that, you know, what appears to me to be an inking of the water scenario has become this thing that people just swear. No, Bosley doesn't know what he's talking about because so-and-so, you know, seal commando, whatever extremo told somebody this, that, or the other. And, you know, it's, it kind of reminds me of the, the secret space program nonsense that was going around for a while there.

But the secret space program nonsense? Nonsense. Yeah, you're familiar with that, aren't you? The Corey Good stuff. There's Corey Good, Jason Rice, all these guys who claim, it really took off in 2015. And for about three to five years, it was all over UFO world community. these guys who claimed that they would, they were time traveling commandos working on the moon and Mars and fighting aliens

and then they were time shifted back to their teenage. Right. Now, the things, certain things in themselves, I mean, I've talked about and other people have talked about was seriousness, but it was this particular group and it was, I think, a calculation. diversion from serious classified space program research. Because the original SSP researchers were Catherine Austin Fitz and Joseph Farrell and Paul LeViolette and Mark McCandlish and Richard Dolan.

And I spoke at the last conference they had of that era of research in Bastrop, Texas, outside of Austin in 2015. And that was, they really were pushing hard to get us to talk about Corey Good from the first day in a Q&A. Yeah. And so my thought, Joseph Farrell's thought and a couple of others is that the authentic SSP research and investigation like Fitz and Farrell and them were doing, looking at technological development, looking at where the money was going. This was serious research into, do we have a classified space program? I think it was getting too close to the truth because the audiences at that event were growing each year. I think it was getting too close to the truth.

So somebody encouraged and nudged the focus on the nonsense stories, which ultimately proved to be a lie. And Catherine fits her overall view of this, the real secret space program is like all the missing money since before 9-11, like when Rumsfeld came out and said, there's trillions of dollars missing. All that stuff's been being funneled to some secret slush fund or something for, like, top-level bankers around the world to be able to escape the earth in light of some environmental cataclysm. And development of the technologies. And Joseph Farrell takes it a step further with, he presents some interesting research on

bonds and currency that is, it has weird errors like a spelling error or something. And he can explain it better, but covertly, these have to do with industry that's off earth. We don't know what kind of mining activities, for example. You know, that's what he talks about. Could be going on. Or being planned, being, you know, worked towards. Because the potential resources, you know, that we'll find on these other celestial bodies, I think is keenly on the near the top of the agenda.

Really? Yeah. Yeah, I definitely think. Like where in particular? Whatever, the moon, Mars, any place we can get to. Yeah. So what I find interesting, too, is the establishment of an overt space force. Because unless they're just going to be in near Earth orbit all the time, okay?

A military unit, that means you're expanding the number of people that are going to have access to space, that you're going to have to put out there in space, which means that many more people are going to be seeing what's actually up there, if there's something actually up there that we don't know about. So you have all these personnel that will need to be briefed in on stuff. And I'm a little bit jealous because I found out that Air Force OSI is the investigative agency for Space Force. So I envy those young guys because they get to go up in these things or when we establish whatever's established. And that's a whole other conversation.

What have we established already? Have we been on the moon? Have we? Have we put boots on the ground on Mars? I think we've tried it. I think we've tried it at least. On Mars. Yeah.

What about the moon? Oh, the moon? I think the moon is an easy one for us to have put people up there. You think that footage is real? Oh, yeah. Really? Yeah. I think that China, Japan, and India, these recent images they've sent back where there it is.

there's the stuff where we said it was. Wow. Yeah. And when you really dig into, like people say that, oh, we lost the technology or we forgot the technology to do that. It's- We lost all the telemetry data. Yeah. When you really dig into it, you see, oh, wow, okay, we really did it, which makes it an even greater feat when you consider compared to today, the primitive computer tech

technology that they went up there with. Right. It was one one millionth the computing power of an iPhone. Right. Right. And yeah, I'm a believer. I think I think we really did it. But I don't think I am. I don't think we were told the truth about all the technology that was involved with getting there. I think it's possible going back to what we were talking about with what somebody was dabbling with in the 19th century and all that gravity stuff. Again, Joseph Farrell, he suspects that when you watch the lunar modules lift off. Yeah. Okay.

That's the goofiest video of all. It kind of goes whoop. And the camera perfectly tracks. Yeah. But whoop. It's like this weird pull. Now people say, well, the gravity, well, no, there's something. He thinks that whatever the best.

technology was that it went into Apollo as kind of an assist. In other words, rocket technology wasn't going to cut it, particularly getting back off the moon. Because there was a concern about that. Okay, getting them off there, okay, getting them there was less of a concern than getting them back. And, you know, he thinks it's a hypothesis that they might have used some type of agey assist. And when you think of Townsend Brown and all that stuff, I mean, In 1959, just a decade before, you know, we sent. Now, I don't think Apollo 11, this is a hypothesis of mine, that Apollo 11 was not the first time we did it. Look at it this way.

Let's say you believe we did it. You agree that we did it. We're in the middle of the height of the Cold War, right? We're really going to put on the dog and pony show for the world our first time. No way. The way our Department of Defense works, we're going to try it. secretly to make sure the stuff can work. So I think it's possible that there's some unsung Apollo heroes.

It might have been the same crew. It might have been Armstrong, you know, Aldrin and Collins, but they might have done it before 11, which could explain why, you know, Neil Armstrong, they say, oh, he's just such an awshucks shy guy. You're allegedly the first man to step foot on the moon. from earth. Yeah. And you're you're gonna never do the occasional parade. Two interviews. Yeah, two interviews. Two public speaking events ever. There's something funny about that. Very funny, right? Because

if you are that person, you're almost gonna be like, it's gonna be mandatory that you go out. Right. You would think. And sing, you know, tell this tale to everyone. And no matter how all shocks you are, you know, it's like, hey, the country wants to see this. You're gonna, you're gonna be like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'll appear. Yeah. You know, but. And also, you know, you say right in the middle of the Cold War, right in the middle of, you know, the Apollo moon landing happened right smack dab in the middle of like MK Ultra, the Gulf of Tonkin, the Vietnam War, Operation Northwoods, JFK's assassination, the list goes on and on of deception and lies that were being covered up. But the one thing that is true is the most incredible feat of humankind going to the moon. Well, are you aware that the U.S. Air Force was the originator of our manned space program? Most people aren't.

The guys who also were involved with bringing the Nazi scientists over under Operation Paperclip, well, they were also guys who were dedicated to putting man in space. And during the 50s, Mercury was a U.S. Air Force program. The capsule, the suits, everything were being developed. The U.S. Air Force was going to put man in space. And then in October of 58, NASA stands up and we're told, the public is told, okay, Air Force, hand over Mercury to NASA. This is now going to be a civilian thing.

Okay, but we have no reason to believe that the Air Force ever actually was told to stand down a manned space program. I think we have had a classified space program from the late 50s on up to the, I would say the establishment of space force is effectively going to end. Not classified space operations, but anything that was classified that has existed parallel to the public space program, I think is going to be naturally absorbed into space force and eventually become part of space force kind of, formative history. But I do think the Air Force continued with a classified manned space program after NASA was founded. So they would have been the ones to attempt a moon landing with that technology to make sure it could work. That's what I think. To me, it just makes sense. Now,

that does not take away from the heroics of anybody who would get in those relatively rickety objects and fly to the moon for crying out loud. Okay, Apollo 13 is a reminder of that. Yeah. It was incredibly courageous and dangerous and such. But I just suspect that Apollo 11 was not the first time, I think. Interesting. You know, and like I said, I think we've tried boots on the ground on Mars.

Could be wrong. And then there's that guy Gary McKinnon, I believe his name was, that hacked NASA. Yeah. and he said he found this computer with this file named terrestrial officers or something along the lines of that. And he saw this cigar-shaped metallic craft hovering above Earth's atmosphere. Yeah. In like this was like 2002, I believe that this was. And then, okay, whatever, you got this crazy kid who seems he hacked NASA and said he saw this crazy thing or whatever,

who's obsessed with UFOs. Like, it's one guy hearsay, right? There's no hard evidence. Right. But then they pursue one of the most aggressive extradition campaigns in the history of the United States against him. Like, what's that? Yeah, that says to me that what it looks like,

he got too close to what he was talking about. Yeah. And something that they clearly don't want people knowing. Mm-hmm. Speaking of Operation Paperclip, you talk a lot about that. Yeah. And essentially, what is your view of Operation Paperclip? It seems to veer from the traditional explanation of what it was.

Yeah. I presently, and have come to a current conclusion, that could change if some drastic or new information arose. But I now see Operation Paperclip as a Trojan horse. invasion. When you look closely at the Operation Paperclip material, you find out that it

wasn't our idea. It was suggested by a couple of the German scientists and said, hey, we can get a lot of our guys if you bring us over. And so we did. And

I had been turned onto a book titled The Thousand-Year Conspiracy by a guy named Winkler. What's interesting was he had been a media guy in Europe. In fact, he's credited with Disney Studios, hired him to introduce Mickey Mouse to European audiences. So he was a media guy.

He was a press guy. Well, in 1937, he publishes, 1937, remind you, two years before World War II starts. He publishes this book, The Thousand-Year Conspiracy, in which he lays out, going back to the medieval era, what the so-called Prussian culture developed as far as a method of invasion through ingratiation. And it started with what this culture of Prussian youngers, these Prussian merchants did to the Teutonic Knights. They ingratiated themselves, made themselves indispensable to the Teutonic Knights, and then they betrayed them. They ingratiated themselves to enemies of the Teutonic Knights and aided those. enemies in destroying the Teutonic Knights. And then through German history, they did the same thing to the ones that they teamed up with to destroy the Teutonic Knights and on and so forth. And this is how they ultimately that so-called, I say so-called because there were actual Prussians, but this particular group, okay, they took over that part of the Germanic territory and took the label. They started calling themselves Prussians.

So they're not authentic Prussians, but the Prussians as we know them. And they were greatly behind the drive for German unification. And they achieved that. These are also the same Prussians associated with NIMSA, the mysterious NIMSA. Well, as you get into my research on this, as I got into the 20th century, it kind of stopped, I want to say, cold by World War I. you know, leading up to World War II. And I had done the 19th century research of all this stuff.

And I began to realize, wait a minute, okay, as I look at the players, these end up being the guys behind the rise of Nazi Germany. Okay. And the whole branding thing, the fascistic branding thing. You know, there are marketing guys who still consider the Nazi swastik as the greatest corporate logo, the most effective corporate logo ever used, right? We've heard about this. But these guys who I've tagged with NIMSA, these guys had a vision that the Nazis would greatly advance. So when it became clear, this is in my hypothesis, when it became clear that Nazi Germany was going to

lose the war. I argue that it was these guys, these Prussian guys that I've labeled the NIMSA because they're essentially the descendant crew of the industrialists and such from the 19th century. They decided, okay, it's time to do what we what we did to the Teutonic Knights and their enemies and so forth through history. It's time to ingratiate ourselves to the big winners of this war, the United States. Hey guys, we got an idea. Bring us over. We'll help you get ahead of those pesky Soviets. We'll bring you our industry and our technology. And of course, we took that apple and bit right into it. And when you, when I read Winkler's book, it was one of the most, and I looked at it from the perspective of what's happened to the United States since the end of World War II, culturally, politically,

and the explosion of our military industrial complex and such. That book, it was heartbreaking because I realized we were invaded. And the JFK assassination indeed was a coup, was a move. And ever since then, our politicians have been influenced, controlled, what have you. Our society, for the most part, in America, there's this post-World War War II fascist international that Joseph Farrell talks about. He calls it the Nazi international, that basically has their claws in our government and our military industrial complex. And again, when you compare our history and you compare it to what Winkler wrote in that book,

published in 1937, mind you, this wasn't something he wrote in 19. What was the name of that book by Winkler? the thousand year conspiracy. You can find it free online, a PDF online. It's very disturbing. Now the problem with Winkler that a lot of people have, and I totally understand the problem they have, is Winkler in that book,

unfortunately doesn't provide references or footnotes. Okay, but when you compare it to German history, it's, you know. And so this is my take on it. My take is that that's what happened to us through Operation Paperclip, that it was indeed a Trojan horse. And our military industrial complex has been, you know, driving things.

The financial world is involved in this too. Well, didn't Russia also get a lot of the Nazi scientists? Yes, they did. I have not done a deep dive on, there's an airship mystery connected to airship builders and stuff connected to Russia, dating back to the 19th century that I'd been turned on to. I haven't done a deep dive on that yet. I haven't done a deep dive on this same post-World War II era from this perspective on the Soviet world and then Russia. I have a feeling I'm going to find some things that, you know, will corroborate, you know, elements of. the hypothesis, but

might even might even go against it, too. Yeah, what do you got, Steve? The Soviet Union recruited more German specialists around 2,500 and 2,700 scientists or roughly 60% compared to the United States. They got 40%.

Interesting. What's also interesting about that is the scientists they got were, as Joseph Farrell and Levy And Alet and others have said, a lot of them were, or the main ones, the key ones, were working with a different physics than the West. This is where we get nowadays, it is said that Putin has encouraged asymmetric military technology, something that's different. Whereas we focus on what we focus on, they might have been developing more exhaustive.

technologies. I don't know the specifics. And that would be a product of their German scientists that they got. Yeah. Well, I mean, look at the fucking Ukraine war. Yeah. And look at the Iran war. There's no exotic technology being used. Nothing. They're using traditional shit. And, you know, they're beating up our military with, you know, cheap drones. So if the exotic stuff is really being developed, who are they? saving it for. Right. What are we saving it for? Right.

Are those guys coming from somewhere else? Or are they planning to fake? You know, there's talk about that. We talked about the projection of Jesus in the skies over with this projection technology. Are they planning to stage a false flag invasion? and as some people say, what if in the middle of the false flag, the real guys show up?

I mean, this could get crazier. Yeah, maybe they're going to use some sort of fake alien invasion to sort of reset the economy. You know, with all the debt and all the inflation, there's no way we can bring this back to normal. So if we stage an alien invasion, maybe that'll be a way to just reset the economy. Reset the economy and also clamp down

on human rights more than people realize. Yeah. And that's the other thing about this whole military industrial complex is that that's all becoming privatized now. You know, with companies like SpaceX and Palantir and, you know, all of this AI stuff that's happening where they're all merged. Yeah. Like the SpaceX stuff, the surveillance stuff with Palantir and all the AI, they're all

working together and they're all taking all of this money from the government. And that's getting scary. Yes, very much so. When you repeatedly hear what little regard some of these guys have for us as individuals, you know, we're just seen as a big collective. And they're all buying giant pieces of land and building bunkers in Argentina. Yeah, what's up with that? And New Zealand. What's up with that?

Patagonia. There was on, you mentioned. I mentioned New Zealand. When I was, I think in my first year with the FBI, my first wife had an in-law. He was a scientist for civilian scientist for NASA. And he was involved with what was called the Kiper Aerial Observatory. It was a KC-135 that had telescopes on it and such. And he said, hey, let me give you a tour of it. I said, okay. So I took a tour of this. And I noticed that all the crew members had military haircuts and were wearing military flight suits. And at the time, I was still kind of early in this. Despite my mentor, I'm thinking, wow, this seems to be a military crew on a NASA. Hmm. But it was at Moffat Field, which is a naval air station.

And he told me that their mission was once or twice a year. In a particular, like, few weeks of the year, they would fly to New Zealand because the part of the sky you could see. see from down there was their mission. At that time, that's what he told me. Their whole mission was just that piece of the sky that you can see down in New Zealand. And he didn't elaborate further, but since I've wondered. Is it still there? The, the thing they were looking at?

Do they still have like a base in New Zealand? Oh, I don't know. It was the airplane that, you know, I thought, okay. and they would only go down certain times of the year. Yeah, it was this case there. Yeah, the Kuiper Airborne Observatory. I think it's been retired. Yeah.

Since then. We had this lady. That's not a, you know what? I don't, I recall it being a different aircraft, but maybe I, maybe it wasn't a 135. That's a wild looking plane. Yeah. We had this girl on the podcast the other day who, um, she's a spearfisher. And she said she went to this island off the coast, off the,

West Coast of South America. Do you remember the name of that island? Was it Coco Island? Coco Island. And there was this decommissioned NASA base there. And when she asked about what that base was for, they said it was for monitoring the Apollo missions. Oh.

But I had never heard. Yeah, punch in on it. No, it wasn't Coco Island. It was right. It was here. No, it was Coco Island. Cocoa Island was where people were getting bitten by sharks. I think that was, oh, was it?

Yeah. No, this isn't the island. That's St. Helena. That's where you know. I'm pretty sure it was Coco Island, bro. Punching on Coco Island. I bet you find that NASA spot. Keep going.

No NASA base? Oh, wow, we were wrong. It was somewhere between. You'll see if you can find it. Go back to her, if you go back to her episode and then look at the timestamps, it's in the beginning. Somewhere. But that was weird.

It was like, I want to say it was. more, it was in the Pacific, bro. I don't think it was in. It was totally here. Because there was no place, there was no land. I know, but I want to say it was more in the Pacific, in the Pacific Ocean. I think you're in the wrong ocean. But yeah, that was kind of weird to me, whether it would be a NASA base way over there that I'd never heard of that was specifically used to monitor the Apollo missions. For the telemetry, because particularly back then, right, with the primitive technology, you literally had to have stations. Okay. And of course, again, during the Cold War,

You're going to, they would be, oh, there it is. Oh, you're right. I was wrong. What's the name of this island? It is, well, let's find out. It's no name. Ascension. Ascension.

That's what it was. Ascension island. Yeah, but here's the old NASA site. No longer used. Back in the 60s, I think, when they didn't have satellites. NASA's everywhere, man. I wonder what NASA bases they have in Antarctica. I'm sure they have something.

A lot of people don't know that NASA is. a national defense agency. They wonder, how can they keep this secret? It's a civilian. In its charter, they are subject to if the DOD says, you won't talk about this, they won't talk about it. So because that's in their charter, they have to keep things quiet. So whatever the guys saw up on the moon that wasn't reported to us, that would be why.

So, yeah. Are you familiar with the wild story about the airship that allegedly attempted to go to Mars in 1903? No. Yeah, this is one of the more interesting airship stories in a book written by Tim Swartz and Sean Castile. And this came from Jim Keith. I don't know if you're familiar with the late Jim Keith. He was a conspiracy author. And a source told him about Nikola Tesla being commissioned to design an engineer an airship for a private group that wanted to go to Mars with it.

Crazy stuff, 1903, going to Mars, right? So I'm working on my research, and I learn about Oliver Heaviside. Oliver Heaviside was a guy who was not a professional scientist or mathematician. He just was kind of a genius. And Heaviside developed this idea, Gravido Electromagnetics, GEM, Jim. And hypothetically, using this idea and technology that would make it work, you could create an energy bubble around an object, okay, that again, hypothetically, you could have a life support system inside that bubble.

And he came up with this in the 1890s. So here you have Heaviside thinking about this kind of idea and developing it and publishing it. And then you have these guys in the following decade. In Gem, GEM is something right up Tesla's alley. You have to wonder, okay, was there somebody crazy enough to say, hey, we've got this anti-eastern, gravity technology that our private little group has. We want you to engineer something. We're going to

use gym for life support. Now, if they tried it, they could have died the minute they hit the Van Allen bounce. Right. We don't know. But it is a story that exists out there that is, it's kind of a food for thought thing. And then going back to the nugget of truth, okay, did somebody try something like this. Who knows? Because you do have the UFO stories going, you know, forward into the 20th century. Yeah. This is where the breakaway thing, there is a gap, admittedly, in the research I've done. And as I said before, that gap is the early 20th century, okay, and then post-World War II. because like what Dolan points out,

as far as breakaway civilizations and stuff I'm talking about, it goes, yeah, that makes some rational sense, post-World War II, breakaway groups, that kind of thing. Yeah.

But then you have the 19th century research that I and some others have done, which show, you know, okay, breakaway group potential, but there's that gap, that 1900 to the end of World War II,

1945. Yes. What were they doing? And all we have, as far as stories go, is this crazy 1903, you know, Journey to Mars thing. So for what it's worth, it's kind of out there. Yeah, the thing with the towns and brown stuff is fascinating as well. Oh, yeah. Because, you know, he was like on the cutting edge of all this stuff.

And like you mentioned earlier, there was that thing at Chapel Hill, North Carolina, that big convention where they had, where he, was there with um i forget the other guy's name there was like some brilliant mathematician there who his father him and his father his father was like on the cutting edge like of uh of anti gravity physics de witt Bryce de witt was one of them okay and then you know right after that in the early 50s the whole thing went dark and there was also like a strange connection to um an island in the Bahamas. Oh, the whole thing with the Caroline group that dark journalist had. Wow. Check out his stuff on the Caroline group, T-Towns and Brown. It's the ship that Brown was on in the 20s. It's a yacht. And they had this, this, this, this blows me away because I love weird stuff like this. There's an original edition of Alice in Wonderland, Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland, which I believe includes Alice through the looking glass. encased. And Brown was on there on this boat. This is going back to the 1920s, I think. And this was encased. And he said, why is this under glass like this? Well, in case the boat goes down, the book will be saved. And yet, okay, what's going on here? You could obviously, when you look at Alice through the looking glass, you could say, was there something Lewis Carroll encoded in this book about an understanding of other dimensions?

What the heck? And then there's Brown and they're looking for Atlantis. Right. Yeah. And that gets into the whole thing where then what, Colonel Sanders of Kentucky Fried Chicken, his daughter, I think, was one of the financiers of the hunt for Atlantis. Really? With Jacques Cousteau.

What? You need to, Daniel List, I'm telling you, his Atlantis series. He's the Dark Journalist. We're a journalist. Yeah. And he's done an outstanding series on this over the last, my gosh, six years or so. And it- So Colonel Sanders' daughter was one of the people funding the hunt for Atlanta.

Yes. Yeah, off of the coast of Cuba and you got Ernest Hemingway in the mix. You've got, you know, what, it's, yeah, it's mind-blowing when you consider how serious. these people were taking this. So there's something there. There's something there. But again, he's done the really outstanding research on that. But this gap, yeah, it's a gap I can't explain.

But we have in this gap things like what we're talking about, T. Townsend Brown, the search for anti-gravity, the mysterious Wilson's. Right. What my dad encountered in the late 50s was there was the elder Wilson and the younger Wilson. And what my dad said that he was one of the guys that witnessed this. They had these, I have no way to corroborate this. This is hearsay from what my dad told me before he died. These platforms that had a little like finger of metal sticking out of one corner.

and they would tap that finger and it would make it buoyant with anti-gravity. And then they had a slide control that would make it go up and bring it down. And I had already been an OSI agent when he told me this. So I'm trained and experienced in some interrogation and questioning techniques. So, yeah, I used them on my dad. Because I'm like, okay, is he BS and me? And my conclusion is that he himself really believed he was telling the truth. So when he was telling this story, to him, he was telling the God's honest truth.

But the problem is my dad got into the Air Force about the time the Air Force was developing its own MK Ultra program. And he was in the Aerospace Medicine Division. And the Air Space Medicine Division is where Air Force Psychology is. And Air Force Psychology are the ones. Of all the military branches, the Air Force got the most turned on with MK Ultra, according to the CIA sources. Oh, yeah. And they developed their own program.

And remember, in 74, 75, when the Church Committee made the CIA come clean about what they've been doing with MK Ultra and related things, the Air Force wasn't there. To this day, the Air Force has never been made to come clean with what they've been doing with MK Ultra. And probably one of my old bosses is like, possibly shut up with that crap. Yeah, I think about that stuff all the time. Yeah. With what they declassified in the church commission, which is some fucking horrific stuff. Oh, yeah. The crap they did was.

I mean, Operation Northwoods, you know, some of this stuff is unimaginable. Yeah. So, like, if that's what they let loose, like, what shit did they burn that will never see the light of day? Oh, right. And how long, I argue that, you know, like with my dad. Richard Helms, he was one of the people that was burning all that. Yeah. I think they put a false narrative.

It's possible that what they did was he was involved with some other classified thing. And when that ended, they were toying with MK Ultra as a means to keep secrets. Because back then it was new. It's like, okay, guys, you're going to work on this ultra secret project. And when your time is done on the project, we're going to use this new technique. So you won't even have to worry about saying the wrong thing. And they put a false narrative in there in case they get the inkling to start talking about it. And what comes up is this wild story.

of floating, you know, that's what I think is possible. So, of course, my dad would believe it because that was what was laid in there. Now, the rest of the story is I'm still on active duty in the late 90s. I'm told by someone in superior rank to me that, oh, yeah, they used hypnosis on your dad to suppress what happened in the 50s. This is why I am convinced that, you know, that's what it was. Have you ever read Tom O'Neill's book, Chaos? Oh, yes.

Would you make of that? Oh, boy. There is something that jumped off the pages at me that I've not seen anyone pursue. And I was kind of keeping it close to Vest, but you asked. Wow. Curtis LeMay, the whole aerospace connection to these serial killers. Are you familiar with that? No.

There's this weird, there have been serial killers who's, who either they themselves or they had a parent who worked in aerospace. And here you have during the Manson period this stuff going on. You got Curtis LeMay who's connected to socially to this guy named Reeve Whitson. Oh, yeah. You've heard of Reeve Wittson. Reeve Witson is the CIA guy who was the first one to report the murders, right? Yeah. And he and he's the guy in that book that like spooked me the most.

Exactly. Exactly. That's what I'm talking about. So you see what I'm seeing. Right? Whitson, you just go, well, wait. Okay, the thing that really makes the hair stand up on my neck was what did Colonel Tate really know about the murder of his daughter? What did his wife?

Colonel Sharon Tate's dad? Sharon Tate's father. He was... He was... ...U.S. Air Force, Colonel Tate. And his wife and he became estranged. When you go back and look at chaos again, I get the impression that she suspected something

or learned something he knew that he... I wonder what Colonel Tate knew about what happened there at the house that night. Because you got Curtis Lamee in the mix there. Tate and Lamee, you know, had to have been communicating. Okay. You know, because LeMay was tied in with a bunch of people in L.A. and stuff there. And LeMay was kind of a mixed bag himself. Right.

What he ran for president with, was it George Wallace? Mm. Or something. Yeah, he was, what the heck? He was on a presidential ticket. But, yeah, Reeve Whitson, you know, is the guy that really is the big question mark in But I do wonder. Yeah, what else do we know about Reeve Witson?

All I know is what's in that book and that is that, you know, an agency commission. And so the story, I'm vague on the story. So Reeve Witson somehow discovered the murders before anyone else did, right? He and there was another guy, I think, that was with him. And this had to do with finding the eyeglasses, right? You remember that part where there was somebody's prescribes? description eyeglasses that were at the house that I think were taken because they didn't want them to be found by the police. Right.

He made like an anonymous, he made like an anonymous tip or something to someone really early that morning or a couple hours after the murders happened. And remember a CIA guy makes an anonymous tip about the most infamous murders in American history. Yeah. And Sharon's car, remember, was at the shop. It was being worked on or something. So the hypothesis is that the killers didn't expect her to be there. And maybe this is horrible. I mean, when you think about it, because the man's her father,

but what did Colonel Paul Tate? What did he learn about what was going on? What maybe did he know? What might this had to do with, could it have been someone who had been in aerospace or connected with aerospace who was MK Ultritor or whatever was one of the, you know, and went nuts. And that was the connection. They realized, uh-oh, one of our, another one of our own, you know, who knows? We're just kind of throwing spaghetti on the wall with this right now because it is a thread that doesn't make sense yet. You're right. CIA guy. He's the one to first make the call. He's socially connected to Curtis LeMay, big Air Force General, who's very much involved with aerospace. Wait, Whitson was? No, no, no. Yeah, Witson and LeMay.

Oh, I didn't know Witson was tied to LeMay. Yeah, they, they, we go back and read the book. They were, that's how I recall. So Witson was connected to Curtis LeMay and Tate's father was also connected. Was a U.S. Air Force colonel. He definitely was acquainted with LeMay. But you have, and LeMay's presence represents, why does this aerospace connection keep popping up?

Well, that could go back to T. Townsend Brown and the anti-gravity and all, not directly to T. Townsend Brown with the murders, but to that element of exotic research. Remember, that was good. going on through the post-war, the 50s, into the 60s. And these guys who developed our advanced aerospace technology also were from the same culture, professional culture and such that develop MK Ultra.

And where did they all come from? Germany, Nazi Germany. So again, if you have this post-war fascist organization that's driving our aerospace, driving whatever MK Ultra is doing to our society or being used to do to our society, which we learned some of that through the church committee hearings with the CIA. Maybe there is your aerospace connection, or maybe that would explain the aerospace connection. Because if one of their own has lost their minds and is out there doing these nefarious murders, They're going to want to cover it up is what I'm getting to.

So Whitson might have been the guy to get in there and clean up any connection to these guys. Right. That's what I think. That's fucking crazy, man. Yeah, Witson, we don't know. I think we, the surface. I wonder what O'Neill found out about Witson that he hasn't talked about. Yeah.

I need to hit up old Tommy after this. Yeah, see if he'll talk about, about Whitson. You know, I've, I've wondered, like I said, my mentor passed away. He was, he would have been my first go-to. Okay. I need to talk to you about Curtis LeMay and this other guy. And, you know, it probably would have been one of those. We'll talk when I can see you.

Because that's usually when he would tell me the wildest stuff. It's never obviously over the phone. But he's gone, so I don't really have someone like that. And, you know, OSI's not going to give me anything. I mean, I've been out of that since 90. Now, that house, the Tate House, that wasn't on the 33 latitude, was it? Boy, you would ask that. I haven't looked at that.

I haven't looked at that. It is within, it's definitely within the range. You got to remember the way these latitude lines go. When we look on a map, it's like a skinny line when people draw this out. Right. But you're talking when you get down on the ground, it's a wide influence of energy. So essentially it's going to be, if. affected by this energy.

Anything through L.A. and all of that. So a very high level, break down this idea of, you wrote this book about the 33 latitude. Yeah. And Disneyland and all the connections to it. I'm generally aware of all the historical events that happened on the 33rd latitude. Sure. But I've always wondered, like, is this just sort of weird coincidence?

We're cherry picking stuff? Or is there some deeper connection to this? Well, to me, the big pointer to that to answer your question as far as Disneyland is concerned is the guy who engineered it. The guy named Cornelius Vanderbilt Wood, C.V. Wood. When the Disney's were first taking seriously the idea of building the park, they went to SRI, the Stanford Research. Institute and they were assigned two guys. One of them was a guy named, I think, Harry Price. He was the numbers guy, you know, the economics of this, blah, blah, blah. But Wood was the engineer for them, the big thinker for them, who was hired to help them locate where to build the park. The Disney's

had an idea for different ideas. Wood is the one that told him about the Anaheim site. He said, hey, there's 40 acres of Citrus Grove in Anaheim that I think would be the perfect location for Disneyland. So he's the guy that would have known about the intersection of the three telluric currents. Popularly misidentified as laylines. A layline is a different thing than a talluric current. But the telluric current is an extreme low frequency energy that runs through the planet. Right. When a planet is forming, talluric currents help form the terrain when it's malleable, you know, in its volcanic stage.

And then when things solidify, the telluric current continues to flow through the terrain that has formed. This is a real scientific thing. And a guy like C.V. Wood and SRI, an organization like SRI, would have known about Tulloric current. It's an engineering thing. So Wood selects this and the Disney say, oh, okay, and he goes, yeah, having it in Anaheim, and the numbers guy price said, yeah, having in Anaheim is, and that proved true. So C.V. Wood was a guy that was friends with a guy named Thomas Swift, okay, Tom Swift, who was a millionaire philanthropist and very famous for going on a search for the yet. Eddie, the Abominable Snowman. But he was also very much into psychic phenomena.

And he started what was called the Mind Science Foundation with C.V. Wood is one of the founders. So in CV Wood, you have a guy who's aware of the telluric currents. Okay. And he would have been aware, if we're right about the intensity or whatever, the intersection of the three talluric currents in Disneyland. What we know is Disneyland, he's the guy that would have known that that was there. But he's also into psychic things. So what I argue is that he engineered Disneyland,

physical Disneyland to work as a psychotronic device on human consciousness. Because he had the carousel placed right on top of where this alleged intersection of three to lurk current lines are. You got three lines. The energy is more intensified. And in the hypothesis, is that the carousel in its rotation throughout the day draws up and distributes the energy through the park. Now Disneyland is built in a bowl, okay? It has this berm going around it because it was built down into a bowl. So you have the carousel drawing up the energy distributing it through the park. But when it gets to the berm, it turns back in and it kind of stays contained within the park.

Why would he have done this? to enhance the experience of the park goer. But Wood's the kind of guy, because of his interest, he would have been aware of the latitude 33 stuff that, you know, you well know, and has been talked about a lot. He's the kind of guy. Now, Walt ended up firing him by like, I think, 59 or 60 or maybe before then,

because he didn't like CV Wood going around saying, And I'm the guy who built Disneyland. Walt was like, hey, wait a minute. This wasn't your idea, buddy. So, C.V. Wood left, and he was involved with the building of six flags, the first six flags park outside of Dallas, I think. And he did some of the same principles because one of those current situations goes through where the JFK assassination site was and through Dallas. And so he attempted, and that park is still open, right, from what I understand for years. But a couple of other parks that he engineered were not placed on the Tullert Current, and they didn't succeed.

So it's kind of interesting that Disneyland is, you know, I think that they disengaged the device when they redesigned Fantasyland in 1982. That it does not work. They disengaged the device. Because they moved the carousel. What is the carousel? It's the merry-go-round. It's just literally a merry-go-round. But a rotating spinning device, this is my hypothesis,

a rotating spinning device on top of that intersection of the telluric current, draws up that energy and distributes it out. The spin draws it up, you know, and as it's rotating it spreads it out. That's the hypothesis, as crazy as it sounds. And it could just be a nutty idea. But, you know, I go into it in the book, the wise and wherefores and the experience that I had there in 81 with the old man Alfred. You talk about synchronicity. I had in February of 81, when this happened and met the old man Alfred.

And then 11 years later, I'm in Manhattan working. for the FBI. I'm at a bookstore. And the guy introduced himself. He said his name was Alfred back in 81. 92, I'm in a bookstore in Manhattan, the Coliseum bookstore. And I see this book, The Old Straight Track, which is about laylines in England. And it was written in 1925. It was written by a guy named Alfred Watkins. So I open up the book, and there's a photo of Alfred Watkins. And I'm looking at the man I saw at Disneyland in 1980. also named Alfred. And I'm like, this, this ain't funny.

This is impossible. And I learned later that the year that I saw that book, the Alfred Watkins book, was the year that C.V. Wood died. So synchronicity. Yeah. And it's years later that I'm researching all of this for my book on Disneyland, that I learned that, that C.V. Wood died that same year that I, that I see this pick.

And I, I mean, I committed it to a book. The guy in that photo, the Alfred Watkins photo in that book, it's got the white hair and the beard and everything, that's the man I saw at Disneyland, at least a doppelganger or a twin of him. And he said his name was Alfred. What's weird is I can't remember his voice because Alfred Watkins was British.

This guy would have had a British accent, right? Wow. I don't remember his voice. voice. Very one of the weirdest experiences of my life. And, you know, I wondered, and I go into it in the book, okay, what would this have had to do with C.V. Wood and this carousel in Disneyland is a psychotronic device. A psychotronic device. Yeah. And what was the end goal of this? The end goal, in my opinion, a lot of people come at me and say, oh, see, that proves that Walt Disney was evil and doing on.

Right. No, look, remember, Disney fired this guy. It was C.V. Wood who designed it. And from what I've learned of C.V. Wood, there was no evil intent at all. It was truly to just, the guy was in the psychic phenomena. He's like an early new age or whatever. It's like, hey, man, let's enhance the experience of this park. Let's see if we can enhance an experience of a place by actively using this telluric energy.

I really think it was a purely. innocent thing. So that, yeah, that's what I think the goal was. And then by 82, when they redesigned fantasy land, they moved the carousel back, I think it was 30 feet was the measurement I did. And that would have removed the carousel off of the intersection and effectively disengaged Is it still there? Is the carousel still there?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Find a photo of that carousel. The King Arthur Carousel. What do you think the connection is between the 33rd latitude and all this crate, like the JFK assassination, the Trinity Test, Hiroshima, and then allegedly like Jerusalem? It passes right through Jerusalem. I think that, yeah, there it is. Wow.

The King Arthur Carousel. Spelled with the French double R. Huh. Now, technically, it is not a carousel. It is a merry-go round because it's all. horses. And there used to be mixed colors of horses, but the white horse was so popular that Disneyland made them all white horses. I think that that's one of the regions on the earth, that there's just some natural energy phenomenon thing going on that people in the know tap into. And it enhances, you know, it's been written about the Trinity bomb test, the atomic bomb test, where there was this result that was more than the sum of its parts.

There was some extra. And that's in that zone. You know, the people who perpetrated the JFK assassination. Have you read King Kill 33? It's an essay. I haven't heard it, but I've listened to people talk about it. Oh, wow. Oh, wow, because it involves the goddess Hecate, which shows up in all of my stuff, even when I don't expect her.

There's something going on with the goddess Hecate and somebody's understanding of her or their application of things to do with, you know, the goddess Hecatee for whatever it means. But in King Kill 33, there's a connection there plus other things with the JFK assassination, which, shows that the perpetrators of it, somebody involved with the perpetrators of it, wanted to do it right there on that Tulloch current. That's why the site was chosen. Because think about it, they could have killed him anywhere, but they chose that site.

I think it's just because somebody believed. Now, as Rick Spence and I say in the First Empire of the Wheelbook, you know, I say to the reader, you don't have to believe yourself that this stuff works. Keep in mind that what we're suggesting is the perpetrators believed in it. So I give people that distance. If you yourself don't want to believe that the Tolaric current somehow played into the JFK assassination or these other things, the point is that somebody believed it.

Do we know for a fact that there's anybody connected to the JFK assassination that talked about this or believed in it? Not that I have found or heard. No, there is, it's through analysis, which is what the King Kill 33 essay, Shelby Downard and Michael Cole, I think Coleman or whatever. Yeah, it's definitely worth a read. It's,

there are things that I've learned through exposure to the idea, you know, synchronicities and this weird phenomena that whether what you're initially looking at is true or real, things emerge. It's like pulling the threads lead you to a position where what you think you're going to may not be so, but something wanted you there. Something wanted you there so that it. Something wanted you there so that it could, you could be exposed to something or you could see something. And I know that sounds vague. When you start looking at synchronicities and then, have you heard of

karmaic frequency? Probably not. An associate of mine, Cessori, another amazing author. He introduced me to Cormic Frequency. Here's an example, a simple example. Okay. We have Carmic Frequencies with people

You know Mine with my dad Okay, has to do with the number nine More specifically 27 Why is that? My dad was born in 1936, 36 is a multiple of nine When he was 27 years old, another multiple of nine In 1963, another multiple of nine, I was born

When I was 27, multiple of nine, In 1990, a multiple of nine My son was born Now, my son hasn't had any kids that we're aware of. You know, and he's already, he's going to be 36 in December. So unless it jumps another nine, now he is living with a girlfriend he's had for two years. But, and he could be 36 years old. You know, if they have a child, which just expands at another nine years.

But that's an example of karmic frequency like I have with my dad, this weird thing where we both are born in a nine year. And at a nine age, we have a child, a son born in another nine year. That's a real cheap example of a karmic frequency. But karmic frequencies could also be you take a timeline and you see the symmetry of events. When you start looking at karmic frequencies, synchronicities multiply. Your experience with synchronicities multiply. You start seeing more of them. This is where it gets dangerous.

Some people can go number 23 with this stuff by they can't stop looking at these things. At some point, when I was investigating the Empire the Wheel thing, that was my. my first deep experience with karmic frequency and synchronicity and strange things. And you know, you start to be able to see, holy smokes, I didn't see that before. I didn't know that before. Now I recognize it, you know, what it is.

And it can be for some people, it can be overwhelming because they can't stop seeing the patterns. And that's what I think, when you are experiencing a lot of synchronicity, you're seeing thread, the threads of the very fabric of reality. And when you're looking at that closely, that's something that most humans don't encounter in their mundane everyday lives, right? So you can't unsee it. And that can be hazardous for some folks who don't know when to step back. Right. I had to step back. That could drive you crazy.

Yeah, from the Empire of the Wheel stuff after the The second book, I had to step back and work on something else that had emerged. But the weird thing that was happening with this when I was pulling certain threads and all this was, I did the Latitude 33 book and I was following up on the Tulleric currents because the three that intersect continue to go out through Southern California. And a couple of them go out towards east from L.A. into the Inland Emberts. which where I live and I thought, okay, let me see if there's any reports of paranormal stuff, ghosts or whatever. So I'm looking up ghost stories in the particular part of town and I find one.

And I go talk to the lady who posted it and she goes, oh, you got to go look it up. It's this lady that was found dead in a lake in 1915. Oh, okay. And she's haunting the mall there. Oh, okay. So ghost story, right? So I go to the special collections room and I start looking at the newspaper. and I find six other deaths. The agent takes over and I'm going, wait a minute. And then that explodes into this empire of the wheel thing. And the murder of children and the spiritualists involved and this weird thing, that weird thing, darker, darker, darker. I'm followed from my home.

I'm followed around. I'm being watched. when you're working on this book when I was when I was investigating the Empire of the Wheel stuff I had gone to the coroner's office and requested a record from 1915 now this was in

2009 or 10 2009 I think it was and I requested a record from 1915 almost 100 years before and I go in and the lady says okay yeah we'll have this for you we'll call you when it's ready oh okay so the next day I'm going out to run some errands and there's a guy parked in front of my house.

Now remember, I've spent much of my career being a surveillance expert. Okay? I could follow my, anybody with my experience, I'm not special. I could follow my own mom around all day and she wouldn't know it was me. Okay? It's just, you just learn how to do it. Surveillance is my thing. So I know it when I see it.

Okay? Because I'm also trained and experienced encounter surveillance. Anyway, this guy was overt. I mean, he made the multiple turns with me. It was a message. Yes, intimidation. Yeah. And so finally, he comes back.

He ends up coming right back parking in front of my house. And I confront him. I woke up to him. Gosh, can I help you? And he's on the phone. He's texting wildly to somebody and won't respond to me and then he drives off. Didn't even look at you. Yeah.

Well, no, he looked at me, but he was, you know, texting. So a couple days later, I'm called, oh, Mr. Bosley, your records ready. So I go back to the San Bernardino County Coroner's Office. Same woman who was all chatty and nice, like a mom, I go in, I say, yeah, I'm here to get my thing. And the receptionist says, yeah, okay, wait a second. She gets on there and she whispers. The same lady comes out who was so nice three days before, and she's seething. She's looking at me with hatred in her eyes. She goes, Mr. Bosley, here's your form. Like, thank you.

I tried to make small talk, and she wasn't, I asked her question. He goes, no. I'm like, okay, I'm out of here. I'm thinking, what the heck? I'm getting information that's almost a century old. What's going on here? I think it was the following week or so after that. And a guy who had struck up a conversation with me,

we'd become acquainted in a coffee shop, talking about Brown Mountain and the lights that go up and down and strange phenomena. He says, hey, I want to introduce you to a friend of mine. Lives up in the north end of town. That's where the old money is in San Bernardino. So one day I go, yeah, okay, I'll go with you. So I ride up there with him. This guy is a wandering bishop.

Are you familiar with those? Episcopi Vaganti? David Ferry, for example, from the JFK milieu, was a wandering bishop. Peter Levenda writes about these wandering bishops. There are guys, a lot of guys who are. wandering bishops are into like black magic or ritual magic and strange arcane things. Okay. What a wandering bishop is, they're in, they're in a line of consecration, which the top of the line is a legitimate bishop recognized by Rome, okay? Only the people

they're consecrating are not recognized by Rome. Once you're a bishop, you can do this. You can make anyone a bishop. I have that on personal authority from someone who is a bishop. He explained this to me. He says, Walter, it would take about five or six minutes. He goes, you could walk out of my house here and you, in the eyes of God and whatever, you are a bishop and the church can't do anything about it. But that's what these wandering bishops are. So this guy, I'm brought to his house. He's got the big cross that he's wearing, but he's wearing scrubs and sneakers. We go into his house And his living room is set up like he's holding court. And he and the guy who brought me there are having this conversation about this third party about, oh, yeah, he's been going around town, blah, blah, blah.

And as I'm listening to this, they're describing things I've been doing while I've been researching and investigating this Empire the Wheel mystery. So they're very, not very coyly or coyly, whatever you want to put it, talking. They're letting me know that I'm being watched and followed. Because they're saying, oh yeah, and he went over here. And I'm sitting here thinking. Wittingly knowing, they're wittingly letting you know this? No, they're right in front of me saying this. And I'm sitting here thinking, guys, really?

I'm sitting right here. But I went along. I played. And so then we went to lunch. And then after that, we're coming back to his neighborhood. And the guy who's the bishop says to the guy who's the mutual acquaintance, he goes, hey, I want to go by, or the mutual acquaintance says to the bishop, Oh, remember, I want to go by that house and check it out.

Oh, yeah, the bishop says, and they drive, make a couple of turns, and I recognize exactly where they're going. And I kid you not, they park right next door to the house of one of my sources for Empire of the Wheel that I had talked to a couple weeks before. They park right there. And it's this real estate open house. And the bishop says, oh, I'm going to sit here and make a house. phone call, you go in with him. So I go in and all he does is this cursory walk around the house

and then he disappears. I'm walking around and I'm thinking, they're giving me a message. They're telling me they know who I'm talking to because what are the odds that it would be right next door to one of the sources that could give me family information dating back a century? In other words, information they wouldn't want me to have. So I finally walk out of the house. I'm walking through the house looking for the other guy. And when I, the guy's in there kind of look at me and say, he's out in the car. Oh, okay, thank you. So he's out in the car and he and the bishop are back and forth.

And then I get in the car and it's like, well, I got to go. I got something to do. And so then I ride back and I look this guy up immediately and I find out that he's Episcopi Vagante. He's a wandering bishop. So that's kind of a red flag. And then I contact my mentor. Now, my mentor is the kind of guy that never had me shy away from dangerous situations.

This is a guy that got me into my federal agency and my spook work and stuff. Okay. When I told him this, this was the only time he ever said, break off contact, these guys mean you harm. He basically told me they mean me harm. So I'm like, yes, sir. you know, you got that. And I, not always willing to just leave things alone.

I ran into the guy at the coffee shop again, and I was told, you know, have nothing to do with him, because as I just said, but he kept asking me questions. So I wrote down Episcopi Vaganti on a piece of paper, and I said, hey, tell me about that.

And then I sometime and I walked off, oh, he got livid. He got really angry at me because he knew that, you know, that I had looked into this guy and found out. Now, this guy was also a had had an article written about him in the 60s or 70s living in a haunted house. Which guy? The bishop guy. Okay. He had been involved with paranormal investigation, that kind of thing. So he was one of these typical wandering bishop.

guys. But clearly he let it be known that people from his camp, for whatever reason, whoever we represented, was watching what I was doing, investigating a case that was almost 100 years old. Rick Spence and I, when we wrote the first book, we were and remain the only people in a century to have written about this publicly. This was swept under the rug. Holy shit. These seven deaths in Sam Renadino in 1915, um, This is some dark secret in San Bernardino history that the old family, somebody among the old families and old money, they don't want known. And where it really gets wild, okay, how the airship mystery comes into it. I was telling you about this Frank Rosasco guy.

Okay. Way do you find out who I think the dead woman was that was found floating in the lake in 19. 15. Subsequent research and continued investigation. The woman they obviously didn't want you looking into. The woman, oh, when she was, we didn't talk about that, but you're familiar with the basics. When she was found floating in the lake on November 19, 1915, okay, there was no purse, there was no identifying ID, nothing on her. The labels of her clothing were scratched out or torn out. shoes, skirt,

somebody had scratched out this stuff or removed the labels completely. Somebody didn't want her known. Or maybe she herself didn't want to be known. Okay? And there were elements in town because it was World War I

that lead Rick and I to be convinced that there was some type of espionage activity involved with the railroad there. And sure enough, during this time, during this particular period of a year or two, there was a ship captured off the coast of San Diego that was smuggling German arms, German rifles and ammunition and such, to India. Because remember, World War I, Germany's at war with England.

They want to keep England busy on two fronts. India was in its early days of fighting for independence. So there was this thing called the Hindu German alliance that was in California. Now, I come from a career of counterintelligence and stuff, and I had never heard of this until I'm investigating the Empire of the Wheel thing. It's something that's been forgotten in history. So there were agents from India and agents from Germany and agents from England all over California. Whoa.

And San Bernardino, I think it still is, but for like 100 years, was the main railroad hub in Southern California. What was discovered was is that the Germans were bringing arms and munitions through the Gulf of Mexico into Texas, putting them on trains, transporting them across the southwest, getting them to San Diego. And the only way you could do that via the southwest was transit through San Bernardino. So there would have been German and Indian agents making sure those shipments were on their way to San Diego. And you would have had the British there keeping an eye on the German agents. So it's all this espionage going on. Then there's the description of the woman.

When I decided to really dig in and maybe identify who she was, I looked at missing persons lists from the early, from 1900 up to that year. And I was surprised to find one name on there because I didn't realize she was considered a missing person. But there she was. And that is at a place. The legendary friend of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. She virtually matches the description of the dead woman. When this woman had a very public funeral after being labeled a suicide, which in 1915, they did not do that.

Give public funerals for science and no church would officiate. But the local episcopal minister gave her a very public funeral. And then after that, He and his white packed their stuff up and left, Samarneedade. I'm going to tell you who he is in just a moment. But it indicates to me that he knew who the woman was and to this funeral arrived this group of women from San Francisco to be her pallbearers. So these women in San Francisco took very personal interest in this unidentified dead woman, who a name was slapped on to her with this fake. suicide note, but Rick and I and most people who read the stuff agree that that wasn't her real identity. But at a place was and is on a missing persons list. Harry Longabaw, Sundance Kid,

is documented as bringing her from South America to San Francisco in 1906. So her last known whereabouts was San Francisco. And you, you know, nine years later, you have this mysterious woman floating dead in a lake, poisoned and drowned. And you have these women from San Francisco come down. And it seems, it seems really thin until you start digging into the counterintelligence history. And you start digging into the specific players. The Episcopal minister was a guy named Walter Franklin Prince. Okay.

Now, at the time, and still to this day, a lot of people in the U.S. intelligence community go to the Episcopal church. There's a lot of Episcopalians in the U.S. intelligence community. It has been for over a century. With the Episcopalian church, you have this group of secular nuns. Now, the woman that was found in the lake was found to be a 30-something-year-old virgin. Okay. These secular nuns are nuns who are like civilians. They're not employed by the Episcopal church, but they take the vows and live that way and they help, they do what nuns do for churches for the Episcopal church. At the saloon, where Edda, we're told Edda meets Butch and Sundance, okay, there was a local order of Episcopal nuns. Okay. And, and, And they provided services to the brothels. I argue and present the evidence that Edda was an Episcopal nun.

She was nobody's wife or girlfriend. And it gets even wilder because I have found what I think is documented evidence that Harry Longabaw, the Sundance Kid, was essentially an undercover government agent. when you read about the robberies and such, Harry Longabaw, who had the reputation of being a really good marksman, never shot anyone. You never, when you read about the robberies, other members of the gang shot posse members and law enforcement. But gee, the Sundance kid, maybe he was like a stormtrooper in Star Wars, just couldn't hit anything. But seriously, a guy who was a pistolier, known to be a good Marxist. and he never shot, well, who is it that hangs with a group of criminals, you know, that never commits a crime?

That never commits the crime or never shoots the cops. Well, that's your undercover cop right there. And I had this suspicion from the first book because when the woman's body was found, there were a lot of newspaper articles that they were trying to identify her. And they said, hey, this mysterious woman, blah, blah, blah. This man came to look at her, gave a name. He went to look at her. They said he got real quiet, and then he disappeared.

And then they never found him again. I suspect, I'm not sure. I could be wrong about all of this. But I suspect that that might have been Harry Longabaugh. He had, for whatever reason, Edda working for at the time would have been the Secret Service. And there's reasons for connecting that in the... the book. I think she came to Sam Renadino, went to Sam Renadino, because it had to do with the

espionage activity going on. The Secret Service, this is before the FBI. The Secret Service was the FBI of the day. They handled all national security, counter espionage, counterintelligence things. I argue that she had been affiliated with the Secret Service through the Pinkertons. because remember Alan Pinkerton, the guy who was Abraham Lincoln Security guy, he created the Secret Service. The Pinkerton family and the Secret Service were like this. So she, I think, got connected to the Secret Service via the Pinkertons

because she was probably working, you know, on behalf of the Pinkertons. I think that Harry Longabaw was injected into the hole in the wall gang as an undercover agent. They were partners. They weren't they weren't lovers. They weren't spouses. Right. They were they were partners and then since then, oh boy, I can send it to you. I've got a 10-page document that shows all the documented what I think is evidence that Harry Longabaugh was working for ONI during the South America years and Butch was recruited into that. Jesus. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's Jesus is right. And they were that crazy about it, tracking you down and surveilling you in 2015. Yeah, you know, there's that. There's the airship guy, you know, the, the mysterious people from Sonora come and get Frank Rosasco. There's who I think was at a place. Oh, and my mentor was alive at that time when I, when I had the, the moment in my research where I realized, oh my God. And he had. And he had. been, you know, he had, he, when he retired, he retired with 44 years in the Intel community. He was CIA. His mentor, he didn't tell me, he talked about his mentor without identifying for 13 years.

Finally in 99, he told me his mentor was, and it was Angleton, James Jesus, Angleton. That's what I said. I go, are you kidding? And he told me the whole story how he meant him. So this was a guy that knew stuff. And I contacted him and I said, at a place has turned up. up, central to my, and he said, you got it. You nailed it. It was her. And he wouldn't tell me anymore. So this is one of the reasons why I'm very, that and the physical description and all

the other circumstances, I'm pretty confident that at a place lies buried in San Bernardino Mountain View Cemetery under the name Correstanton. I'm very confident. And who are the other six murders. What I think was going on, she got caught up. There were two things going on. This is where I mentioned Walter Franklin Prince, was the Episcopal minister. I think the reason he gave her a public funeral is because he was aware that she was an intel agent and he knew she wasn't a suicide. So he showed her the respect by giving her the public thing. But the other side of that coin with him is Walter Franklin Prince, when he left San Bernardino, he went to Boston to become the number two men at the American Psychical Research Association, which he, in the 1920s,

became the head of the number one man. And he, more famously during the 20s, teamed up with Harry Houdini to investigate corrupt spiritualist mediums. Okay. And if you know your Harry Houdini history, the spiritualist murdered him. Are you familiar with Harry Houdini's death? I've heard. We actually had somebody tell us about this on a podcast a couple of months ago, but I don't remember much of it. Harry Houdini was murdered by corrupt spiritualist mediums. They basically told them they were going to corrupt spiritualist mediums. Yeah. It was big money. They had people in D.C., including the White House that would consult. insult them and they threatened Houdini.

Read a book titled, I think it's the secret life of Houdini, but the authors are Cowlish, K-A-L-U-S-H and SLOMAN. Okay. Yeah, Calish and Sleman. Harry Houdini, America's first superhero or something like that. They go into the murder of Houdini, and then there's other sources. is the first spiritualist temple ever established in the state of California was right there in San Bernardino. I argue that there was some shady stuff going on with the spiritualists in San Bernardino.

And that was probably Prince's Walter Franklin Prince's first bad taste of it. I think he somehow, oh, by the way, Houdini, who was also working for the Secret Service. at that time. Yes, that's known history. That's well documented. He was performing in L.A. He was in Southern California during all this mystery. So you got a guy who's a famous stage performer,

but he's also an asset of the Secret Service. You've got him in Southern California, and you have this woman who I think was the Secret Service agent at a place and something, you know, I can't help but think there's some type of connection between Prince and Houdini back then, and they were aware of something going on with the spiritualists. So to answer your question, I think some dark element of the spiritualist community in San Bernardino was conducting a very bad black magic risk.

with these seven deaths because each one where they died, it's mapped out in the book, occurred on a Tuller current, on the line or an intersection of Tuller current. Somebody murdered, made sure all these people died connected to that Tuller current system. The book also, oh, yeah, the Zodiac Killer did the same. exact thing with the seven classic. Now remember he said there were 37 more that the police hadn't found, but of the seven classic attacks of which I think only one person survived, um, they were all until their occurrence. That's mapped in the book too. There's a map showing you that. Um, yeah, this is, this is beyond weird. Um, beyond. Yeah. Yeah, there was a predictive, I'll share the little predictive tidbit with you too.

Take it or leave it for what it's worth. Okay. In the book published in 2011, Rick and I say... In this book? Yes. Empire of the Hill. Empire of the Wheel. Empire of the Wheel.

Rick and I say in 2011 that we fear that something's going to emerge in San Bernardino Valley in 2015. because it'll be the 100th year anniversary of what happened in 1915. As I told you, the goddess Hekate turns up thematically throughout all of this. Her number is 100. The number 100, that's where we get. Why is her number 100? It goes back to ancient times. Okay.

And this is why certain things that have to do with the number 100 have the HEC or whatever, because it's connected to Hecatee. But often it's in a set of two 50s. Now, we talk about the Zodiac Killer in there because the Zodiac Killer essentially emerged 50 years after what happened in San Bernardino. So we were concerned, we voiced a concern that, okay, 50 years after that,

100 years after what happened in San Bernardino. And we thought it would be a new serial killer, unfortunately, you know, that would have. emerge in 2015. So on the 100th anniversary of victim number six, Orde Hedges, the 2nd of December 2015, I'm standing there having a cup of coffee in my kitchen, and the news report comes on of the terrorist attack in San Bernardino. Now, I've had a map since 2008 of all the Tulleric lines in San Bernardino. And when it said, where this was going on.

I knew it was a 100th anniversary of one of the victims. I'm like, oh, my God. So I looked on the map and the building, sure enough, where there's laylines. That's the first thing. Then as we learn, the terrorists were associated and claimed a connection to ISIS.

Right. Okay. Isis is an Egyptian name also of a goddess that is connected to Hekatee. So dedicated to ISIS, one could say dedicated to Hecate. There were 14 victims, Orde Heges, who was killed on the 2nd of December 1915, was 14 years old. So there's some synchronicities for you. Isis Hekete 14. You're seeing fractals, Walter.

I told you. It's like, where's the thing with the red lines? Give me the cigarette. But I mean, we say four years before that, we think something bad's going to happen in 2015 in San Bernardino. And I mean, what are the odds on the 100th anniversary? Unless the sick bastards read the book and decided, which really pisses me off if that's the case.

But they were properly taken care of. So, you know, weirdness. Lots of weirdness, man. Jesus Christ, you blew my mind. I got lots of reading to do. Well, dude, we just did three hours. Holy smoke. Thank you so much.

This has been fascinating. Oh, great. Well, thank you. We're going to have to do part two down the road. I think so. I think so. I think there's a lot more that we can cover. Oh, God.

Yeah, just for me to explain the stuff I threw at you today. Right. 100%, man. So I'm sure this book is available everywhere. Books are sold? No. Empire of the Wheel. My books are available at one place.

and that's lulu.com. L-U-L-U-L-U dot com. Lulu.com. Yeah, okay. Perfect. We'll make sure we link that below for folks. Are there, is there any other, anything else we should tell people about, like, where to find your work or any of your stuff? Well, they can, if they mayander over to the Walter Bosley channel at YouTube, they can see me yapping about stuff there. And, you know, that's, I think that that'll probably be enough for them. All right.

Well, I'll make sure we link that below as well, as lulu.com for folks to find out. And thanks again, bro. Hey, thank you. I really appreciate this. My pleasure. All right. Good night, everybody.