Danny Jones Podcast - #65 - The Bitcoin Pioneer Serving Two Life Sentences | Lyn Ulbricht

Episode Date: December 14, 2020

Lyn Ulbricht is the mother of Ross Ulbricht, who created the deep web e-commerce platform called “Silk Road” which earned $183 million dollars, where its users could exchange a variety of goods, both legal and illegal, which was drugs in most cases.  At age of 26 Ross was arrested and handed a double life sentence plus 40 years without parole.  Put this into perspective.. a 26 year old first time offender with and all non-violent charges was given exactly TWICE the prison sentence as El Chapo.  Ever since Ross went to prison, his mother Lynn has been campaigning to expose the insane corruption within our judicial system and the draconian sentences handed down by prosecutors and judges.  Learn more at: https://freeross.org Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We're going to start posting each podcast episode that you see on YouTube a week earlier on Patreon. So feel free to join for early access to all episodes. Plus, we're going to start doing bonus podcast episodes every week. So if you want to join Patreon, it's patreon.com slash concrete videos. Next week's episode is already posted there. So feel free to go check it out. Hello, world. My guest today is Lynn Olbrick.

She's the mother of Ross Ulbricht who created the Deep Web e-commerce platform called Silk Road, which earned him close to $200 million where users could exchange a variety of goods, both legal and illegal, which was drugs in most cases. At age 26, Ross was arrested and handed a double life sentence plus 40 years without parole. Now, to put this in perspective, he's a 26-year-old first-time offender with no criminal history, all non-violent charges, and he was given exactly twice the person. prison sentence of El Chapo. Ever since Ross went to prison, his mother, Lynn, has been campaigning to expose the insane

corruption within our judicial system and the draconian sentences handed down by prosecutors and judges. This podcast is short, but so important for people to hear. Without further ado, please welcome Lynn Olbrick. So thanks for joining me on this and doing this, Lynn. I really appreciate it. I appreciate you're having me. So for the people listening.

and watching who may not know. Basically, your son is Ross Ulbricht, who I believe at the age of 31, had created a billion dollar e-commerce website called Silk Road and is now serving two life sentences for it. That has got a couple of errors. This episode sponsored by Forkful. Most meal delivery services promise healthy food, but look closer and you'll often find cheap industrial seed oils hiding in the ingredients. Forkful does things differently.

Forkful delivers chef-prepared meals made with premium ingredients you'd expect at a great restaurant, from center-cut filet mignon to wild-caught lobster mac and cheese, and every meal is 100% seed oil-free. Instead of canola or soybean oil, forkful chefs cook with extra virgin olive oil, avocado oil, and grass-fed butter. Because better fats make better food. Meals arrive fresh, never frozen, with clear nutrition and ingredient transparency, so you always know exactly what you're eating. Restaurant quality meals, real ingredients, no seed oils.

Discover Forkful today at Forkful Meals.com. Okay. Just to straighten that out. Okay. First of all, he was 26. He wasn't 30. And it wasn't a billion dollars, although that is often said in the media, which is completely inaccurate. the government's own estimate of everything on the Silk Road legal and illegal and everything else

was 183 million. A billion is a thousand million. 183 million is a far cry from a billion. And often they'll say over a billion. It is not accurate. And I'm just going by the government's own stats. So is it just the headlines and the media that are saying a billion or was it the actual was it the government who said it was over a billion?

The government said 183 million. That's, yeah, it's the media. The media, you know, echoing each other with false information, which happens all too frequently. So how did this whole story begin for you with Ross and what he was doing? And can you just give me, from your perspective, how this whole thing unraveled? And how long ago did this happen? Ross is arrested 2013

Ross was arrested November sorry October 1st 2013 and his father and I found out about it from Reuters a Reuters reporter called us we had no clue and yeah I mean and then

everything hit the fan and you know all kinds of media were coming by the house and they were saying Ross was involved with murder for hire which was conceivable and still is. And he was never charged with that at trial, by the way. And it just became a complete maelstrom of stuff. And that's my life's never been the same since, basically. That was pretty much it on, it was actually October 2nd when we found out. He was arrested October 1st.

And I found out from a Reuters reporter who called us. How close were you and Ross during that time, or like the years leading up to that? Well, Ross was living in California. I was living in Austin, Texas and in Costa Rico where we have a business. So my husband and I, so we were close and, you know, everything and on good terms and, you know, and always were. But we weren't living in the same state even. So, you know, and I wasn't with my daughter either. I mean, they both, you know, are doing their thing. did you have any idea like what he was doing for a living did he talk to you about like how he made his money what he was what he was doing every day or he had a he had a book business in Austin an online book business called good wagon books and actually he he contributed 10 or so to charity local charities from that business and um a friend um Renee panelle said hey come on out to California where I am. Ross is ready to move on from the business. And he said,

I want to get into some venture capital stuff and some startups and I want you to be involved and like that. So he went out to California and was looking into that kind of thing. That's what that's my understanding of what he was doing at that time. He did tell, he did say that he created, he was very on fire for freedom. He was very involved with the wrong policy. campaign in 2008 and he brought Ron Paul to Penn State when he was there as a graduate student and became very passionate about free markets and about Bitcoin, which and the potential for monetary freedom with Bitcoin and told me about Bitcoin. In fact, I even said, should I get some? And he said, no, mom, it's too volatile. And I'm like, wow, it was probably about 50 cents

then. Okay. Anyway, that was a mistake. And in any case, He was very passionate about that and free markets, and he wanted to bring those principles and experience to people, and he created a video game to that end, but didn't get it published, and then turned to the Internet and created the Silk Road website, which was based on the non-aggression principle of strictly voluntary interaction, no force, didn't strictly forbidden were things, and this is all according to the government as well, things that harmed a third party. So if two people want to exchange something and it doesn't harm a third party was pretty much permitted from my understanding. But if it did harm a third party, for instance, child porn,

it was not allowed because that hurts a child on so many levels, right? Or stolen property. That hurts the owner of the property. So those things were not permitted. It was strictly by the non-aggression principle, which is basically a libertarian principle. Drugs were permitted. You know, it was considered a free choice among individuals. Mostly user amounts of cannabis was what was exchanged on the site. And so, yeah, so he started that. And, yeah, so Silk Road was basically just. I didn't know about it.

I didn't know a thing about it. I mean, it just, you know, until he was arrested. Right. I mean, essentially what he created was just a platform where people could buy and sell goods, an agreement between a buyer and a seller that, kept anonymity and they could and they would use bitcoin and they would be able to maintain complete uh keep themselves anonymous essentially yeah that was the point and there were a lot of legal things exchange you don't hear about that ever but um you know books and art and uh

electronics and you know the whole list and it's on our i sent the link and actually maybe you guys are going to put it up but there's a whole and our website also has it uh of a a lot of things that were listed. It's kind of like an eBay, but it was, you know, private and it, um, actually plenty of people sell drugs on eBay too. So it's, but, you know, it's more open about that. Exactly. It was eBay.

It was basically an eBay that you had to jump through a few extra hoops to get on it and to use it. Yeah, you had to open a Bitcoin account. You had to fund the Bitcoin account. And you had to know how to use Tor. Right. Because Bitcoin was the only, you know, currency permitted on the same. which is why Ross has so much support among the cryptocurrency community because really his vision brought, you know, put it on the map. Bitcoin would not be worth, I look today, $18,000

if it weren't for Ross, really bringing it, making it prove itself as money. And I've been told by people in the community that he's the second most important person in Bitcoin history after Satoshi Nakamoto who created Bitcoin. So, yeah, so that was his vision. But Ross's intention was always for freedom and privacy and the individual. He's very, you know, feels very strongly about that. And, yeah, that's what his intention was. It wasn't to be a drug kingpin.

And actually, as a side thing, the judge, Judge Forrest, who gave him that barbaric sentence. basically a death in prison sentence for all nonviolent charges. She said at sentencing, we know that you started the site for philosophical reasons. So she knew he wasn't a drug kingpin. I don't think El Chapo or Pablo Escobar are that philosophical. I just, that's just my guess. They do it for money and power, right? Ross was doing it for philosophical reasons. And she said, but I'm just not sure it's a philosophy you've left behind. And basically she's saying for that, if you haven't given up that philosophy of voluntary interaction and, you know, do no harm to third party and non-aggression principle, I'm going to have to condemn you to die in a cage.

That's basically what she said in so many words. It's ridiculous to think that somebody like El Chapo, I think he only got life plus 30 years. He got half the sentence, Ross got. Half a cent. And your son got double life sentence. Double life plus 40 years. It's ridiculous. It's such a constitutes of government power.

It's shocking. It is. It puts us all in danger if some judge. And by the way, it was her fifth life sentence that year. It was only May. You know, she's quite free with the life sentences,

this woman, although she's retired now, thankfully for justice. You know, she shouldn't be, she, you know, I was told by a very high-powered lawyer in New York,

she had no business being on the bench. But anyway, she was. And, but yeah, El Chapo, half the sentence. Noriega, Noriega got 20 years. You know, and there's, we have a whole list of kingpins on our site that have a fraction of the sentence Ross does. Ross, who has no record of violence, no history in his life of violence, nothing. You know, he's a, he's a geek, an idealistic geek who had, who, you know, I'm not saying, hey, not a good idea, mistake.

He admits it. He regrets it. But double life plus 40 years for that. Is there any chance that he could be pardoned? I'm hopeful. You know, there's always a chance. I'm hopeful. I've heard stuff like that with like Edward Snowden,

that there was a chance of him possibly getting pardoned. It could be hopeful for him too. I mean, President Trump has indicated and shown that he, he is very open to clemency for people. He has given pardons and commutations to people during his term, his four years, and he also pushed forward the First Step Act against the will of a lot of his party, which improved thousands, well, brought thousands of people out of prison who were serving these horrible sentences that are way past what they should be serving

and destroying so many families. So I think, you know, President Trump could see, I hope he can see that this sentence is actually a terrible precedent that not only hurts Ross, but can hurt others because it sets this precedent. Now a precedent is set for a nonviolent first-time offender, no criminal record whatsoever, no nothing about harming anyone, you know, inflicting bodily injury or any of that, getting double life plus 40 years. This is unheard of.

but I think that I can tell you my theory on it. I think that he threatened some very powerful people with the idea of Bitcoin. Bitcoin was very new and unknown. And I think that having this currency that was out of the control of the financial powers, I think that was a real issue. And I think that they needed to make an example.

And one of the reasons I think so, is that a couple of years ago, the Intercept revealed through Snowden that the NSA was urgently tracking Bitcoin users and trying to track them down a few months before the Silk Road was taken down. They were concerned about Bitcoin. They were concerned about this thing. And I think that Ross, because I wasn't sure about it. You know, I thought, well, maybe it's the drugs, maybe it's this, that, even though he was never accused of actually. selling drugs. But then I saw that the biggest drug seller on the site got 10 years. He has the same

offense level as Ross. So obviously they're not that concerned about the drugs. You know, and it goes down from there. Everybody involved in the case got way less time. And the guy who was running Silk Road 2, which was a copycat site only was bigger, according to the government, he got no time. He's out. He just, I don't know how he got out. But he did, you know, because they were saying we caught him and all that. And suddenly he went away. So his name is Blake Benthal, B-E-N-T-H-A-A-L. And so nobody, I was like, whatever happened to that guy?

And we went on the prison website and they tell you where different inmates are. And his had released. He was released after 14, 13, 14 days after he was arrested. And he was running a bigger site. copycat the government called identical. And so this is wrong. You know, you don't give one sentence to, for similar crimes. This is ridiculous.

No sentence versus double lifeless 40. You know, makes no sense. What do you think it was? What do you think the true, if there could possibly be any logical explanation for it, even if it's buried in like the muck of a prosecutor, and the politics of the whole thing. What do you think the reason was they put or they went to the extent to try to cover up things and lie about things to try to slam him with this insane sentence?

Like obviously they wanted to make an example of him, right? But what do you think? Do you think there was like a deeper underlying, incentive for them to do this besides the i mean i don't think it's personal or anything i think you know they wanted a trophy they do they and you can see in our um there our thing on the um we have a video it's also a podcast it's also written it's all footnoted it's based on the public record they knew they knew that um he in fact the lead investigator in the case never thought it was ross Never thought Ross was the dread pirate Roberts.

Now, and it's pretty well established, and he even set a trial, I heard him with my own ears, that there were many people that were running that site. It wasn't just Ross. But according to the old-fashioned thing, they need a perpetrator. They need a perpetrator. And I think Ross was set up. I think, you know, he took the fall for this, but it's pretty well established. he was not the only one.

But they, you know, it's like putting the head on the pike in medieval castle, you know, when, you know, if you do what they did, you're going to end up with your head on a pike. That's what they were attempting, I think, with this. And actually, the prosecutors didn't even ask for double life. That judge gave it to him. They wanted, you know, they wanted a hefty sentence, but they never publicly at least said double life or even life. So she just, you know, decided he deserved to die. in a cage, literally.

And no redemption, no chance. You know, he's 29 when this happened. And that young, never violent, and he doesn't get a chance to redeem himself. You know, it's not American. It's just, it's like something you'd have in a tyrannical state, not in America. Well, I think the, I think America has the most prisoners per capita than any country. That's correct.

That's correct. It's terrible. It's an outrage. And it's been since the drug war. Before the drug war, it was a prison population was a relatively stable. I think it was 180,000 or something. And since then, it's just ballooned into 800% more. So it's millions of people. And it's because of the drug war. Over 60% of the people in prison are nonviolent drug offenders and immigration offenders. mostly drugs. And before that, it was more like a regular system that had some justice. This is like, this is horrendous what's going on. What has it been like since he was sentenced for you guys? What has it been, like, what has your life been like since? Yeah, that was probably the worst day of my life, you know, because before when he was convicted, I thought, well, we're going to fight this, we're going to do this,

you know, but he'll never, you know, it's like, we'll see, but I'll get him out, you know, and then when we, that day of sentencing, I was just, um, uh, it was just the worst. It was just like I'd been told my son was dead or something, you know, it was just horrible. And then I, you know, you got to just dust yourself off and I thought, okay, got to keep going. I cannot live with this. I cannot live with him, um, rotting away. And essentially in a box. I mean, right now, he's been since COVID on 22 to 24 hour lockdown in an 8x10 metal box fed through a slot in the door.

No breaks. Now, right now it's 24 hours. For a while, it was 22 hours, you know, and they got out for two hours. 24 hours a day, day after day in a metal box staring at a metal wall because of COVID. You know, this is unacceptable. This cannot. So basically, my life's been actually before sentencing and after sentencing, my main goal every day is the eye on the prize of Ross's freedom of seeing him walk out of that place. And going on to live his life, and I think make a contribution. I mean, Ross has a lot of very great ideas. He's quite intelligent. And he even recently wrote, it's published on Medium.com. And he's written a lot of things that are on Medium, as well as on our website. But just to show his intentions, I don't know if you're aware of the issue with WhatsApp being private, but pedophiles and other, you know, nefarious people hiding behind that

cover. And through artificial intelligence, Ross has come up with a way that can maintain privacy, but still not allow that kind of activity. Don't ask me to explain it. I tried to read it. I can't even understand it, but he did run it by experts who said, it's got a lot of promise. I think you're on to something, but he can't develop it because he's in prison. So that's just an example of the kind of thing he wants to do. He's very philanthropic, really, and compassionate. And that's where he was coming from with Silk Road. I'm not saying he didn't make a mistake. I'm not saying that it was a bad idea in a lot of ways. I'm not defending it. I'm just saying his intentions. That's a 26-year-old idealist. That's where he was coming from. And he's still

idealistic and he still cares about humanity and he's being wasted. He's just being wasted in there. So he's he's actually developing new concepts for technology and for these apps and still innovating from prison essentially? Essentially. I mean, and he doesn't like get on the internet. So I'm not sure exactly how he's managing this, but he's been reading about AI in artificial intelligence for a while. and I don't know. He's just, and he's got other writings in there about Bitcoin and about, and even some things, personal things, like he is one that's the five keys to inner strength I learned in five years in prison that is quite inspirational.

His attitude is amazing. I'm inspired to keep going by him because he's so, he will not let himself be brought down and become bitter or become paralyzed by the situation. He just won't. many, of course, understandably do. And he just, he won't. He just, he won't go down the negative track. I mean, I've been guilty myself of like, you know, I just have a few words to say about the judge say to him. And he's like, nope, we're not going to go there. It's just she's part of the system. It doesn't matter. She doesn't matter. It's all. And I'm like, yeah, but blah, blah, blah. And he's like,

nope, we're not going to go. We're not going to let this, because what can happen, of course, is the negativity and the anger and the fear and all that stuff can just drag you down to the point where you're, and he is very disciplined about that. And it helps me because I'm like, yeah, I can't, I got to control my thinking so I don't get dragged down because I'm no good to anybody if I do. What are your conversations like with Ross nowadays and how often do you guys communicate? Well, he can't call anymore because he's on this 24-hour day lockdown. So usually, and he's got very limited minutes.

You can't talk very long. So they're usually fairly, you know, superficial in a way because it's like, how are you? Are you feeling okay? What you eat? You know, it's like, and he's like, how are you? And, you know, it's like that. And then it goes, you are talking to a federal.

You have like 10 or 15 minutes, right? That's it. Well, yeah, but he's saving his minutes. He's trying to ration his. minutes. And so, yeah, it's, so we don't usually talk a full 15 even because he must have spread it out over the month. But now he has no, he can't call because he can't, they don't let him out of the cell because of COVID. Even though in his unit, there is no case of COVID. But, you know, don't ask me about why the prison does a lot of things. What, what prison is he in?

He's at the maximum security prison in Tucson, Arizona. Maximum security. Yeah, he's been in maximum security prison. First, he went to Florence. And the reason he's in maximum is because of his sentence, because it's an automatic life sentence. You're in the maximum. If you went by his, they take a score for your offense levels in terms of your danger, even with his charges, which are, you know, up his school.

Yeah, he'd be in a camp. When he came to that first prison in Florence, Colorado, which, by the way, is the step down from a superman. It's a huge prison complex. It's a very gang-heavy, violence-heavy prison that they threw them into. They said, what are you doing in here? They're looking at the paper and then they go, oh, yeah, the sentence. He'd be in a camp.

He'd be, you know, based on his, you know, score. But that's what they do. They put you in maximum. So now he isn't a maximum, but he's in a maximum. a safer place because the other place, what happened was they have, he was being pressured to, with another guy, but they were being pressured to beat up what they said was a snitch, this guy. And this happens in there where they're like, you've got to do this, you know, or else, or else, you know.

And Ross said, look, I'm not violent. I'm not going to beat up some guy. I'm not going to do it. I don't even know the guy. I mean, there's no, why would I, you know? And so he resisted and put himself in protective custody. which was solitary for like three months. And then thankfully was sent to Tucson,

which is one of three what they call safe yards in the system for people who would be targeted if they were led into the regular population, which Ross would be now because he refused to do that. And so it's safe. You know, it's still prison. It's still maximum security, but it doesn't have violent people in there.

And so it's, it's not as much of a danger, you know. It was a very dangerous place he was in before. But now you're saying he's confined into just a box by himself, basically solitary. No, he actually has a, he has, hang on one second. He has a cellmate. Okay. Now, can you explain to me and for the people listening,

essentially the part of his case that helped them justify the two life. sentences was saying that he solicited murders. No, it wasn't the case in the case. It was somehow a part of it was. Okay. He was indicted in Maryland for that. It was based on the material provided by a corrupt agent who has been in prison for the last six years.

I believe he just was released. So, hey, you know, who had, you know, who supposed. supposedly had this conversation with an anonymous chat with supposedly Dread Pirate Roberts. No proof it was for us whatsoever. Anyway, that was submitted to Maryland. That has now been dismissed with prejudice. It never went to trial. It was never prosecuted. It's because there were two cases. Then there was in New York where he was did go to trial. That was never charged. The jury never ruled on it and it was never part of his convictions. He was not convicted of anything to do with violence whatsoever or murder for hire or planning any violence. So this was something that the

prosecutors talked about, that they indicted in Maryland and dropped. And of course, media, you know, picked up on it. And it's become part of the story. But there's no proof of that. Who is the agent? Who is the agent that you said is in prison now? Well, I think he might have just been let out. but Carl Mark Force is his name. And this is all covered in that same thing, the Silgrove, the real and untold story that's on our site, but in detail, footnoted. But, yeah, Carl Mark Force.

There's another corrupt agent who also had run of the site. They had full reign of the site. They could act like Dread Pirate Roberts. They could change chats. They changed evidence, potentially. And his name is Sean Bridges. And I believe he is still in prison. I'm really sure.

So these two agents, and the real kicker about these agents is that they were not allowed to be known to the jury. So when Ross's lawyers were like, we're going to tell the jury that there are these two agents. They could change stuff on the site. They could act as dread pirate Roberts. The judge shot it down. She would not allow the agents to be known to the jury. So I didn't even know about them until two months later when it all came out in the news. but by then Ross had been convicted.

It was too late. Do you still have any contact with his attorney? His trial attorney, no. Trial attorney. His name is Josh, right? Josh Traitel, no. And he was also the attorney for the appeal, but no, I don't. Now, was he court appointed or did Ross hire him?

He was highly recommended and we hired him. And what is his take on all of this? What is his? I don't know. I mean, he's, he, yeah, no, he thinks, I mean, obviously he fought for Ross. He thought he should be, should be released. His thing was that Ross, that was set up and that someone else was doing this. That he wasn't, that he, you know, started the site, yes.

And that's all, again, in that piece on the page, on the website. So he, you know, yeah, he, I mean, yeah, he's his defense attorney. He felt like it was, it was, you know, he was railroaded. So what are you doing now with your website, freeross.org? And just give me an example of kind of like what is your mission now and what are you doing with the website trying to inform people and be active and outspoken about what's going on. Well, one of the main things on our website is a petition that please, anyone listening, if you haven't signed it, please go to freeross.org. and sign the petition. There's a big red banner. Or you can go to freeross.org slash petition. It'll go right to change.org where it is. And it's approaching 360,000 people signed it.

I haven't been on it lately, but if it's not there, it's close. People, you know, hundreds, you know, way over a quarter of a million people think that Ross should be commuting, the sentence should be commuted. I have personally, you know, done all. a lot of interviews on media as well as attended many conferences over the years, just spreading the word, correcting the narrative, you know, just, you know, promoting, raising funds. That's always an issue because lawyers are very expensive people, but, you know, and doing that and just in general, keeping this alive. I feared that we're also to be forgotten.

You know, he's buried alive over there in the metal box, essentially, and it's easy to forget. There's a lot going on in the world right now. And so a lot of my intention is to keep people, you know, keep, not let him be forgotten.

You know, once he's out, do you want to forget him, fine. You know, it's like not forget him and all the other people. I mean, he's not unique in having a terrible sentence and a really unjust, cruel sentence, there's thousands and thousands of people that are,

I mean, I believe there's 150 people with life sentences for marijuana. Well, I know Ron and Ross's friends in Florence, the place he was before this, is serving a life sentence for marijuana. And it's in Colorado, where on the state level, marijuana is legal and the guy's serving life. It's just, it's insane. It's just insane.

So, it's not violent by serving life for marijuana in Colorado. Yeah. Does Ross talk about what he wants to do if he ever has the chance to be a free man again? They were talking about what he would do or what sort of aspirations he has? Well, he said he will work for criminal justice reform because he's seen firsthand, of course, course for over seven years now, that how much reforms needed. And he knows the people personally. And, you know, so he said he would definitely work for that. I imagine it since he's doing work in prison about different ways that he can help people through his knowledge of technology,

that'll continue to do that, like what, you know, like the paper I was telling you about. He's got, he's full of ideas, you know. But I would say that he's still a very much of a freedom loving person. He believes in that. And so I would imagine that would be his continued to be his inspiration. But all legal, all legal. He seems like. He will never come near breaking the law again. No, I mean, he seems like like someone who could be such an asset to society. I agree. To the country. I mean, someone that young, that created. I mean, he has the potential to inspire so many people to make the world a better place with what he can do, with his with his skill, with his talent, with his knowledge. It's just it's such a shame that this brutal system that put him away for so long, it's just such a shame. It's just such a shame. And it's so depressing to think that people still, the system still works like this to this very day.

And there's so many people that are just going to waste away and have given up on ever getting, on ever getting out. Yeah. I mean, people, victimless crimes, quote unquote, where, where this was, you know, no one was forced, no one was hurt, no one. This is not right. You should, you don't, you don't do life for that, you know. It's, it's, yeah, our country, our country's criminal justice system has been weaponized

against people. And it's very alarming, really, when you think about it. It's very, very concerning. And it's become this mass incarceration that is huge money, giant money. All kinds of people are making money off of it, both privately and government is. But the taxpayers are funding this thing. And it's billions of dollars. So it's just, it's horrible. How long do you think this COVID lockdown is going to go for. I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I just, it might be quite a while.

Because before COVID, you could visit him in person, right? Yeah. And actually, there was a little one time, which was in October this past month, that I did get to visit him very briefly. And then they locked him down again. So, yeah. But that was the only time I visited him since March. And he doesn't, you know, now there's no visits.

Can you email? No, he doesn't have email privileges because it was a quote-unquote internet crime. And he tried to get them, he appealed to the Bureau of Prisons, but they said no. Wow. So he said a lot of, hey, listen, a national gang leader who could organize riots across the country has email, but Ross doesn't have email. So tell me how that makes any sense. it doesn't make any sense. That's why I think it's so important for, you know,

that's why I wanted to have this conversation with you, because I think it's super important to to shine light on things like this and make more people aware of it. And, you know, I don't know how, I don't know how else we can solve this problem, but to just shine more light on it and make more people aware of it. Yeah. So the petition is on freeross.org and people can sign, and how many people do you guys do you guys need to get to make something happen you know there is no

magic number um 360 000 is a pretty big number um basically i've been using it as a PR tool in terms of if i talk to a legislator and i go hey check out the petition this is 360 000 people who and they go whoa it's a movement this isn't just one guy some guy it's a movement and it has become a movement And so it's really to show, so it's not like, oh, it reaches this magic number and he's out. No, that doesn't work. I wish it did, we'd be. But it does help, and it shows backing, and it gives, you know, emphasis to this. And I think, you know, it's helpful because really it helps me get people to support our thing,

knowing they know all these people are behind it. And there's lots of others. I mean, the Libertarian Party came out officially asking for clemency for Ross. Many leaders, if you go on our website, there's a page called widespread support. It's impressive. There are a lot of people speaking out for Ross. Just recently, Congressman Thomas Massey tweeted, it's time to free Ross and Knoten and Assange, but, you know, to free Ross Oldbricht. And other people in politics as well as in the tech.

sector as well as in the cryptocurrency world. There's all kinds of people and just politics and just people who are well known have come out for Ross. And on both sides of the aisle, it's not just libertarians, it's, you know, people on the left, people on the right, all can see that this is wrong, that this sentence puts everyone in peril. If they can do it to him, they can do it to other people. people. It's not just him, you know. It matters. It impacts the precedent that they can use to cage more people for longer. Well, I can't thank you enough for doing this. I really appreciate

you taking the time to share with our audience, your story, and I'm super grateful for you doing this. I'm grateful to you for giving me voice. I'll put the links in the description for people to visit freeross.org. Is there anything else I should link down below for people to to go find more information or take action? We've got the link to the petition, and I link to the website, and then the link to that documented information that is really quite riveting.

And you can listen to it as a podcast or watch it as kind of a little video or just read it. And I recommend it if you're at all interested in the case. It's documented. So it's all based on the public record. I wish I could the whole thing, but much of the evidence is still sealed and encrypted.

And that's another question. Why is the government continuing to hide what's in this case? If it's done and they got their man, why aren't, and they did it all according to the book, why is the information sealed? But it is undisclosed. So, but even just working from the public record, it's shocking. It's a real insight into how the whole thing works and who is involved. And we have, you know, all kinds of cast of characters in there.

And it's pretty interesting. So I reckon I have a professional narrator who volunteered his time to do it. And it's really, it's quite good. It's, I believe, I mean, as far as other similar stories I've heard with prosecutors trying to pin people like this, is their careers depend on it. And at the point, once you get entangled in a certain web of lies, you can't just, okay, we'll come clean on this because then you're going to, you're going to, you're, you're going to open up a can of worms to a whole another slew of lies and you're going to put politicians or judges jobs at risk their careers at risk and they you know they don't want to ruin their jobs or their careers or compromise their friends careers over one kid's life right yeah it's

it's so gross it is even the murder for hire thing i've talked to many people oh yeah they did that They do. Even our lawyer, I said, thank you. But they don't know proof. And he goes, yeah, they do that. They put it on there to prejudice people. I've had people say they did it to them, have told me. It's just what they do.

They smear the person to make them appear worse. So they can be sure and get, I mean, it's really horrible. It's become out of control. And they, when people, you know, they're arrested. And then they're like, well, you better plea and not go to trial. because if you go to trial, you're going to lose, which is probable, and you'll get a worse punishment. So they threaten them. They threaten their families. This is what I've been told firsthand. And so they go, okay, I'll plead to whatever, even though if I didn't do it.

And that's why 98% of people pay, make cop a plea, because they're bullied and pressured and threatened by prosecutors. If he would have basically said, I'm guilty of everything, would he have been able to take a way lesser sentence? Say, like, would he have been able to get maybe 10 years? If he said, oh, I'm guilty and just... Well, 10 years was the mandatory minimum initially. But I don't know what that judge would have done. It's so hard for me to say what she would have done.

I mean, I don't know. I'm not sure. Thank you so much for your time, Lynn. I really appreciate it. Thank you.