Danny Jones Podcast - #92 - Former CIA Spy Explains Surveillance on US Citizens | Jihi Bustamante

Episode Date: May 17, 2021

Jihi Bustamante is a former covert CIA Intelligence Officer, specifically an operational targeter who’s job was collecting intelligence against one of the highest priority threats to U.S. security.  She operated and carried out intelligence operations with her husband Andrew Bustamante in Latin America, East and South East Asia, Europe, and the South Pacific. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, world. Today's guest is Ghi Bustamante. Ghi is a former covert CIA intelligence officer. Specifically, she was an operational targeter whose job was collecting intelligence against one of the highest priority threats to U.S. security. Ghi operated and carried out intelligence operations with her husband, Andrew, in Latin America, East and South Asia, Europe, and the South Pacific. Ghi and Andrew have one of the most fascinating podcast called Everyday Spy, where they discuss the espionage tactics they've learned in the CIA that also benefit everyday life. Without further ado, please enjoy this podcast with Ghi Bustamante. Ghi, is that how you pronounce your name? Yeah. Bustamante. Yeah.

Thank you for doing this. I've really been looking forward to talking to you. Your husband is one of the most fascinating people to talk to as well. And I love listening to your guys show. Awesome. Every Day Spy. Awesome. Thanks for having me.

I am excited but also nervous to be here because I see. Scoot up a little bit. I see Andy is like the cooler one. You seem as the cooler one? No, Andy is the cooler one. I am pretty sure. Yeah, I've been listening to your guys' podcast all morning. And it's just, it's so riveting.

Especially the stories about how you guys met in the CIA and everything. Well, go ahead. Don't let me get ahead of myself. For the people that don't know who you are, explain a little bit about who you and what your background is. Okay. My name is Ghi Bustamante. I am married to Andrew Bustamante.

We were both CIA officers. That's where we met. We met on Orientation Day, basically. I was a targeter at the CIA. So there are different types of targetors. There are, but I think a lot of people see in the movies are kinetic targeters, like the military guys who literally target a person to drop a bomb on them. with a drone. There are targeting analysts who are people who find those people and analyze where they

might be or where they might be or who might be around them that's also targetable. But I did operational targeting. So I was given instructions, you know, we want to know this is the intel, right? Like this is the intel that we have a gap in and we have to fill. So my job was to find who could fill that gap in our intel and then identify the most likely people that we could approach to give us that intel and then put together an entire like dossier on them so they could be approached so they could be bumped so they could be approached so we can make friends with them and then convince them that telling us their secrets is the best thing for them okay so I asked your husband this the first time he came on the show and I'm going to ask you the same thing because I'm interested in

your perspective but what in your mind are the most are the biggest misconceptions of the CIA you know so funny story I never intended to work for the CIA so I am probably one of those people who had like huge misconceptions in the beginning I applied to the CIA on a whim I was actually looking to join the Department of State or any other federal government agency it was my last year of college and I was at a job fair and I walked right by their booth and my applications to the federal government were going and nobody had called me back and I was getting worried and I thought, you know what? I was like, last ditch effort, I'll apply to the CIA. Like there's an application online. Like I didn't stop to talk to them. I was like, oh, those CIA people. So I get a call back

after I apply and every step of the interview process I had these misconceptions where I was like, I am not a James Bond. I am not like, I am not a liar. I don't want to do this shady stuff. Like, I am not comfortable with like overthrowing government. So every step of the way, right? But every step of the interview process, I'm meeting these people who are just like you and me.

They are very friendly people. They are very intelligent people. And I start to learn more about the agency and its mission. So I think that a lot of the misconceptions is that the CIA is like a dirty place, right? That people without morals work there and we do dirty, sneaky things and we're working, you know, it's like black ops or doing, you know, not cool black ops, but like, you know, overthrowing governments and, you know, manipulating people into doing things they don't want to do. And none of that, that is not true, right?

Like people just like you and me work there, really intelligent people doing really, really incredibly important work. Like, intelligence is an absolutely necessary part of government interaction, right? Like, when you're at high level, I mean, even at low level, honestly, different types of intelligence, but on a government level, for sure, intelligence is crucial. Diplomacy is fed by intelligence. You can't have diplomacy without it. You won't be successful at diplomacy without it, in my opinion.

So now were you I mean what was your perspective your your your outsider perspective before you actually got in and started learning it and meeting people so I was a social worker before I joined the agency and I was working with uh refugees and asylum seekers primarily who were being um relocated to the United States so my my vision of what the CIA was before I joined was purely from the movies. You know, really cool gadgets and everybody knows that I do kung fu. Everybody knows five languages. You know, everybody was cool and good looking. And it was really, I'm a huge fan of James Bond. So I really was like, this is the agency. Once I got there, I realized it's a diverse place. And one of the biggest things that really hit me when I got to the agency is how many different jobs there actually are. So all the movies are about the exciting case officer, right?

The James Bond, the Ethan Hunt. But you get there and there are HR people. There are people who clean the waste baskets. There are, you know, cooks, there are analysts, there are mechanics. There are graphic designers. Really? Yes. like there's a print shop there people work that you know like there are IT people so it's just like any

other it was it was insane like how it cool it was to walk in and to see the seal and you have to get past the guards with your special badge and all of that felt super cool but you walk in and it's cubicles and people doing like a plethora of different jobs like any other business like any other government organization to keep it running. You just happen to work on things that are super cool that most people don't know about. That's what I enjoyed the most was kind of having this insider insight into world events that I was already interested in. And then I had an even even more of an insider perspective where I was like, this is really cool. And I can affect things in a way, even if a small way, that nobody will ever know about. And for me being behind the scenes is huge.

Like I love being behind the scenes, like affecting somebody that nobody ever knows I even touched. That makes me feel good, right? I see the end result and I'm like, boom, I did that. Great. Now, when you got there, did you get to sort of choose the path that you took or did they do that for you? So in the interview process that I went through, I was going for, they have different tracks. So I was going for a certain track and there were like three different job descriptions. that I could go for. I picked one. I entered. I decided shortly after they have a really long

orientation period and then a really long training period. So I decided I originally was a desk officer and I decided that targeting was a better fit for me. When I entered in 2007, targeting was brand new. They had just started it. It used to be that case officers themselves would do that kind of work. They would be the ones that found targets and figured out how to approach them. But it really wasn't efficient for them to be doing that. They really need to be out in the field meeting people. So they created an entire job description for people who specialized in finding who they were going to meet. So then all they have to do is spend an hour with me.

And I say, this is the guy. Here's his photo. Here's his family. Here's everything we know about him. He's going to be at this place, at this time. He likes this kind of stuff. go, you know, go meet him and be friends. If they spend an hour with me, it saves them a ton of time.

I can go much more in depth because I'm interested than the case officer would be able to because they have a million other things going on. So, yeah, so for me, I was able to change tracks during the training period and then be certified as a targeter. Okay. And then how did you meet Andrew initially? Were you guys both training or? We were in orientation together.

So they enter everybody no matter what their track is. together and then that's when they do all the HR stuff right like here's how your health insurance works and here how your paycheck works make sure you sign up for medical benefits all those the intro stuff that you don't think about happening at the CIA so we met I think I noticed him after the first week and he was always seated between two females but I decided yeah I saw phone from a distance and I was like, I'm going to meet that guy. And so it took me about three weeks to get a seat next to him and start up a conversation. And he was great. As soon as I introduced myself, he was like, do you want to go out on a date Wednesday? I was like, yes, yes, I would.

Very much. Yeah, it was great. So the bummer for him was I was dealing with an anxiety disorder at the time that had just kind of, I'd had it for about six months undiagnosed. So I was having all this anxiety constantly and it was making me really physically ill and um so he asked me out on the date the night of the date he called me to ask directions to my house and I was like I was throwing up I was like I was like I can't go he's like are you like do you want coffee instead do you want he kept trying trying you know and I'm like I just can't and that was the very end of our orientation I was like I can never see this guy again like he makes me throw up I have too much much anxiety. I like him too much. I was like, this sucks. Like, I'm never going to see him again.

So then we spent like, I think, a month working on the same floor in our offices, completely avoiding each other until I bumped into him at a staff meeting. And then I was like, it was. How old were you? I was 27. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It was intense. And I was, He was a very patient man because we had a lot of tea dates. When I was like, I'm really nauseous right now. Like, you make me so nervous. Now, this like, it parlayed into you guys eventually working together, like right as a team. Yes.

And was that like before you guys got like into a relationship relationship? Or was it the relationship first and then you guys teamed up together? So it was the relationship first. And, you know, part of what brings us together. are our commonalities. So we both have an interest in a background in Asia, and that's the region that we were working. So we were in different offices, but the same region. And so we both had, so I was, I lived in Japan from the ages of two to six. And I spoke Japanese when we lived there, and then we moved back to the states after that. So I had this, you know, my like, my like pivotal, my growing years were in Japan. So I had this, yeah, so I had this.

Yeah, so I had this really strong connection. What were you doing in Japan? My parents, my dad's Venezuelan. So my mom met my dad in Fort Lauderdale, moved with him to Venezuela. I was born there, and they'd converted to Buddhism. A Buddhism that the sect is the Nietzsche-Din Shoshu Buddhism from Japan. So they had friends who had already gone to explore this Buddhism more in Japan. And my parents were trying to figure out how to get there.

My dad found a school that had a master's in architectural photography. So he enrolled in the school. He learned Japanese, enrolled in architectural photography school. And they just took us. Well, I was just me at the time. So, yeah, my mom, I'm two. And my mom goes halfway across the world. And they like adventure.

That's super cool. Yeah. And you learned English and Japanese? I mean, you were obviously old enough to already know English, but you learned Japanese at a very young age. Yeah, so Japanese, Spanish, and English were my first three languages, which was interesting when I moved back because I moved to St. Petersburg, and my second grade teacher tried to hold me,

my first grade, my first grade teacher tried to hold me back because she said that knowing so many languages made me slow, which, you know, it was 1986. That's okay. But my mom pushed back, and I ended up in gifted class instead. So, um, teach their own. Exactly. But ever since then, I was, you know, when we got to the agency, you know, I, I, I had

Spanish. I was like, I can pick Japanese right back up. I had enough of it. And that was my interest. And then Andy has Chinese and his, um, he has a degree in, uh, East Asian studies. And so we had this common interest in that region and in working the targets in that region. So it was natural. for us to eventually end up working the same targets.

I don't think we were ever at the same time in the same office, but that doesn't mean that we weren't working the same targets, if that makes sense. Like, for example, they'll have a regional office that will do Asia, but then they'll have another office that does a subject matter like counterproliferation, right? So you can be, have two people, one in a regional office, one in counterproliferation, and then they overlap because counterproliferation happens everywhere in the world. So that's how it ended up happening.

And where are you guys at this point? Like where is the CIA headquarters? Like that you guys, where's the building that you guys are working at? So we were in Langley at the main headquarters. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And we were there for quite some time before, you know, doing TDIs and things like that.

So. And how long was it before you guys actually went out into the field and went to Asia together? So we. And where did you guys go to China? Uh, we, I, I don't, I, I don't, yeah, we can't say the exact location. Oh, okay. Asia, okay. Um, but we did a number of TDIs separately.

Um, so we had started traveling for the agency almost as soon as we joined. Oh, okay. Right. Like him going, you know, I would go one country, he would go another country at different times as the office, as the mission dictated. Um, and then, uh, eventually, I, I knew that I wanted. to be assigned overseas for a longer period of time. So I started, you know, just putting a little bug in my manager's ear, like, I will go literally anywhere.

I was like, Ulaanbatar, I don't care. Like, just send me overseas. I wanted the excitement of being in the field because it's the work is different, right? Like headquarters work is slower. Field work, like you are on the ground real time. Like stuff happens. know, like where we were, there was a, like, a small terrorist attack while we were assigned there, you know, and I'm like, it's action, like stuff is happening real time.

Like, I'm working with the foreign service there. You know, it's just incredible. So we, I think we were together, I think we were together three years before we were sent out for a long assignment. And that was, it was amazing. What is it about Asia and those cultures that excites you or interest to you? So I think a lot of it has to do with my childhood

just the fact that I because my first memories are of Japan and because my parents are Buddhist so even when we came back that culture continued it's just comfortable for me. I like, so I definitely feel American. I am definitely Americanized,

but I also have this very strong, like I understand the culture of putting your community before yourself, which is very Asian, right? Like Americans are very independent. You usually put yourself before others. But in Asia, like when coronavirus started, Japanese people just put on a mask. They were like, for the greater good, no problem.

I think Andy struggles more with that. But for me, because it's something for my childhood, I mean, it's just very natural. It makes sense. Well, it's interesting because there's such an ancient culture. Like, Andy was telling me that he went to, he was doing a tour there. I believe it was with you. And someone showed you guys like a mill or some sort of building. Yeah.

That was twice as old as America. Yeah, it was like that put everything in perspective for. It was like a house, like a wooden house and a mill still standing in like pristine condition. because they take care of it. Yeah, like twice as old as America. And we're like, wow, the culture here. I mean, we've been to a lot of countries in Asia. And, you know, China's one of those places where you look at China's history.

You know, like, their history is, there's such longevity there. And the China that we know today is not original China. Like they have, like, looking at their progression over history, I just think is so fascinating. America's harder because we're so young. So we're right now witnessing, you know, our own progression, but it's not like looking at 3,000 years worth of history. Right. You know, I mean, Native Americans were here,

but we don't have that written history. It makes you think is that where we could be going if we last that long? You know, it's really interesting. So I'm a giant dork, and I am a huge fan of Star Trek. And, like, Star Trek Next Gen is one of my favorites. favorites. And so the whole idea that one day we could be like this, you know, utopia on earth, at least, where, you know, like money isn't, like, I think there's no currency. I'm pretty sure in Star Trek. Everybody has roles they fill. Everybody's needs are mad. There's this definite

part of me that's like, that could happen one day in theory. But communism is also a good theory. and like practically it will probably never ever work. So it's it's one of those things where, you know, I have faith in humanity, but I'm also realistic. You know, we could do a lot of things. Lots of things are possible. Are we ever going to get there? I don't know.

It would be, I mean, it just seems like the world would be such a better place. But if we didn't have this inherently tribal DNA, where we're just not, like we said, like I said, like territorial apes with thermonuclear weapons. Yeah. And, you know, unfortunately, that's just what we are as human beings. And I can't see in the near future any way to get past that threshold. Yeah.

But I figured out, but if we could somehow figure out how to get past that, I think, you know, like I said, your vision of some utopian world of people that all get along and there's no borders or boundaries and right i mean i i agree with you i think near future i don't see it um is it is it possible yes um there is a ton of work that would need to be done i think um i was just reading a book that was talking about um like the scarcity mindset and the scarcity mindset is what drives people to hoard and to compete and to be like you know there might be five apples and five of us but I'm going to take three just in case. And they're like that, that mindset gets us all in trouble.

Like if you look at, if you really looked at resources and how they could be divvied out, like if we actually entertained all the options that were possible, there really would be enough for everybody. Like there would at least be enough for basics for everybody, but that doesn't seem to be good enough for enough people, like people who have control, who have leverage. So that just makes,

you know, creates inequality. It keeps inequality going. So yeah, I just, I think it's a long road. I think it's definitely possible. I think people are working towards it.

What do you think the best way for people to get out of that scarcity mindset is? So I think it's just believing that there is enough, believing, like not being scared that at the end of this, like when I finish my sandwich, there will be no more sandwich. much like just don't be afraid right like just know that I'm going to eat this meal and by the time the

next meal needs to come around it'll be there there's enough right like maybe it's not going to be a you know maybe it's not going to be a steak and a giant baked potato but it will be enough like you will eat you will be fed um so just knowing you know like investing money right like don't hoard your money like use it because there will be more on the other end you know Like if you keep working and you keep moving forward, then you're not going to be without. That's one of the biggest philosophical questions in life, right? Money versus time. Yeah.

People chasing, you know, and neglecting their families and their children to chase money and to work. And you realize by the time most people who attain that extreme level of success or money or wealth or whatever it is, they realize once they get to the top of the mountain, it's not what they thought it was. Yeah, exactly. Andy refers to it as looking under skirts. He's like, he's like, the more people I meet, the more networking I do, he's like, the more skirts I get to look under. And the more I realize, that's not what I thought it was going to look like under there. Right, right.

Yeah. And so it's really, I think, about, like, really understanding what is your goal? Like, what is your goal? What is the purpose you're driving towards? Because I think most of us, I mean, I admit this, I didn't think about it at first either. Like, I got to the agency, and I was like, I have made it. Like, my parents were like, you're going to college and you're going to be a professional. So I went to college and I became a professional.

I worked at the CIA. I was like, I'm going to work here for 30 years and get my pension. Like, woo, like, I am success. And then we left. We are brought to you by Manscaped. who is the best in men's below-the-waist grooming. Manscaped offers precision-engineered tools for your family jewels. They obsess over their technology developments to provide you the best tools for your grooming experience.

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Let's do something for ourselves. You know, because when you work for something like the CIA or for the military, like your life is not your own. Like you have signed the contract to perform a mission. And I definitely believe in the importance of that, but you have to go in with open eyes. Like your life is not your own. You can't just pick.

If they say you're going to a war zone, you're going to a war zone. You know, for the greater good, the good of the mission, right? So when we left, I was lost. I was like, Andy was like, freedom. I'm going to do what I want to do. But I was completely lost when we left because I was like, I just met my goal. And now I'm doing what? Like, what is my actual purpose in life?

because I realized that wasn't it. Like the fact that I had left, right, that wasn't my actual personal goal. I had been following somebody else's dream the whole time. And I met it and my parents were very proud, but I wasn't doing that for myself. So it's like the person who's working, you know, 60 hours a week, not seeing their family trying to reach this monetary goal. Their family might not care about that. And do they actually care? Do they, they might think that they're doing it to provide for their family, but are they?

Like, are they doing it because they think they have to? Would they be happier making, you know, a third less money and spending more time with their family? Right. You know, it's just critical thinking has to go into it, I think. Now, how did your worldview or your perspective on politics when you were younger get changed when you got into the CIA? Because I believe on one of your podcasts, you talk about your parents were hippies when you grew up. Yes. And they raised you.

You had a very liberal, progressive mindset before you entered the CIA. So my progression was my parents are very liberal, both of them still. And then I went to undergrad, and I hung out with tons of people who were like left of liberal, who they called progressive, as well as the word. And I was very progressive. And then I went to law school. And law school was the first time where I, it was a smaller environment. So my undergrad was a very large school.

So you kind of pick your niche and you hang out with those people, right? It's like how people tend to hang out with like-minded folks. Law school was smaller. So I was forced to hang out with whoever was there. And then I was forced to hear all these other perspectives. and other perspectives from people who were intelligent enough to explain them. So suddenly I'm hearing not just another person's perspective, not like a regurgitation of... Like a bumper sticker.

Yeah, exactly. But people who, like, could defend their ideas, people who were open to hearing other people's ideas, right? Like, the whole point when you practice law is creating a solid argument. But that argument can go either way, right? I mean, that's what you have prosecution. in defense. You have two sides constantly. So you're constantly practicing making both sides of the argument. And it was this really powerful exercise for me, like three years of constantly having to think about both sides of an argument. And that was the point where I started to shift center.

And you were meeting more like some folks were, there were some older students there. Some people had different life experiences. So you're starting to be exposed to different kinds of people. And then when I got to agency, the agency is full of brilliant people, really just sharp, intelligent, patriotic. You know, people, like I had had friends from all over the world before, but suddenly I'm with people who not only are from all over the world, but are, like, very American as well. So, so I started getting this much broader perspective of government and government's role and how other countries are perceived. And I didn't agree with everything there. I mean, there are still some things where, you know, I think it's really important for intelligence

and diplomacy to be able to step into the shoes of another culture, of another country. And that didn't always happen there. Some people were much to, like if you talk to some State Department workers, you'll see it too, were there much to America forward. And I feel like that's a mistake. Like you need to keep that perspective because that is your goal. Like your mission is to represent and do what's best for America. But if you can't understand what the Russians or the Chinese are thinking and feeling, you're going to miss it.

You know, you're going to miss the mark. So, like, you have to understand motivations and vulnerabilities. And that's really the only way to do it. So when I started working with all these amazing people at the CIA, my perspective was just broadened, I think. And then I met people, you're not supposed to be political there. And so there was much less... You're not supposed to be?

No. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, we are... I mean, I think any federal government agency is like that. You're not supposed... You are supposed to represent the government. The government changes political parties constantly.

Right. to like there aren't a lot of conversations where people are like you feel like you're inundated with liberal ideas or inundated with conservative ideas people just speak their mind they speak in an intelligent way and there's always reasoning behind it and for me that's you know there has to be there has to be depth to the conversation like if you just start if somebody's just spewing ideas there's there has to be more more to that right did you ever have any moral qualms with some of your missions that you got sent on when you were when you first got in there and you had to get sent over I mean I don't know how much of the work that you you were involved in was like part of like regime

changes or like greed on parts of yeah different things the U.S. was doing in other countries so I worked I worked covert influence for a period and I loved it um the covert influence yeah so there's covert influence and there's covert action covert action um it's like babe pigs right like They went in and nobody was supposed to know that it was America. Covert influence is much more subtle. It's like what Russia does to us, basically, you know, changing hearts. Trying to influence elections and stuff. Influencing hearts and minds to get a certain result, right?

So you're really targeting people. And I have this social work background. I studied psychology for a bit in college. And I just thought it was so fascinating. like you think about your end goal like where do you want people to get to like what conclusion do you want people to get to and then how do you lead them there verbally right through propaganda or through newspaper articles or through um you know just verbal like ideas right like idea sharing um you know dropping leaflets right like it's just such a fascinating process to me so covert influence i would

say was the closest place where I thought I was luckily never put on anything that I felt was super dicey. There, I did learn that the government, there are rules. So that was something that was actually comforting because I'm in this office. And we were trying to plan something. And then the lawyers are on all of our projects. And they're like, you cannot do this. And we're like, oh, and they're like, you cannot incite violence. Like you cannot put anything out there that's going to make people, like if you think in any way that it's going to make people violent towards each other, you are not allowed to do that.

And I was, I felt, it just made me feel better. I was like, all right, there's rules here. Like, lawyers on my case. Like, that's great. Like, hooray, you know, let's do this, you know, black op and, you know, with some morals here. But yeah, there's definitely been things done in CIA's past, right, that I wouldn't have agreed with. I was looking never to be in a situation where I was, you know, where I was lucky to never be put in a position where I had to decide whether I was going to go along with something I was not comfortable with or whether I was going to have to leave. Because that's always an option, you know.

And when I was interviewed, that was one of the questions they asked me because I'm booed. I was a social worker and the interviewer was like how do you reconcile these things about you with all the gray area the CIA is going to have and I was like you know you just decide on the spot like you have to decide case by case there's no black and white every situation is completely individual so yeah I I really love what uh how Andrew described the the difference between black and white and good and bad like people's People's moral judgments that they make in the real world by and large are good or bad, right or left. And it's all funneled into these two binary categories. And it was super fascinating to me how the CIA expanded that view and that way of thinking, the critical thinking and the cognitive, what was the word, the cognitive dissociation or something like that. But basically how the CIA adapted a black and white way of looking at the world into basically a color wheel of not just gray areas, but actually color. Yes. To where you have to analyze situations depending on the different elements and the different information that you're getting from people, whether you completely disagree with this person, if this person is the scum of the earth, child murderer, whatever it could be.

but you need to be in this person's life and deal with this person in order to get valuable intelligence from them. Right. I thought that was super interesting. Yeah. And I mean, for me personally, part of that's like, what's the greater good here, right? Like maybe you're dealing with this horrible person, but what are they giving you for the greater good? I think on the other hand, like most people, so I worked with a little. a lot of refugees and there are absolutely horrendous stories about what happens to people who become

refugees before they become refugees right so you read all these horrendous stories of like child soldiers and you know like neighbors turning on neighbors and rape being used as a weapon of war and like there are so many scenarios out there that the average person who lives a comfortable life does not even, I cannot even comprehend. And when you're in a scenario where essentially every decision would be considered a bad decision where like in your black and white, it's all black, you still have to choose. And you have to be comfortable with whatever that choice is. Like you can't just stand there.

You have to make a choice. So you can't put everything into a good and bad bucket. there's a giant gray area of, you know, like if I have to choose between, between dealing with like some kind of horrible person who has ties to terrorism and I know that they are going to be able to give me information that stops an attack that saves 50 lives, like, you're going to give that dude money. You're going to take him out. Like you're going to be friends with him because he has,

the ability to do good on the other end, whether he knows it or not, right? Like, those are the real life choices. That's what happens in real life. I think that when you are living, I mean, and I live a comfortable life, I just happen to have had the exposure, right? I think when you're living a comfortable life and you're not exposed to the, like, to the realities that are out there, it's easy to judge. It's easy to judge and be like, oh, I wouldn't have done that.

I wouldn't have done that. Okay, well, when you are in these situations and you're standing, there and you have to make the decision, let's see what your decision actually is, right? And you have to change, I think, your idea. Like, you have to shift from what's right and wrong to what is the objective, right? Especially when you're doing stuff for the government, like military, CIA, like, what is the objective here? What is the mission here?

And how do you accomplish that? It's not about what do I personally think is right and wrong. How do you obtain your objective? How do you complete your mission? because that mission is serving all of us. Like whether we know it or not, there are missions happening right now that maybe we would disagree with,

but they're serving us, they're protecting us. Right. Yeah, I had one guy on here who was a drone pilot for flying those drones over Yemen, those killer drones. And he was recruited by, I believe it was the Air Force that was heading that program. But he said he was like 19 years old, 18 years old and they were having him pull the trigger on these drones that were blowing up

you know people and he being 18 years old watching people get you know blown up yep in countries like Yemen or whatever and it scarred how you mean it really messed his head up yeah having to make those decisions and or whether he was making the decisions or not he's probably following orders like pulling the trigger on those drones yeah and watching these people suffer like on the king watching the infrared camera these people like crawling and bleeding and yeah Yeah. That stuff can be terrifying to you. Like to any human.

Right. And think about like, like all the people involved in that decision, right? So he was pulling the trigger. So he probably felt directly responsible. But there's a chain of command, right? There are other people making that decision. People who found that location to target. Like the guy in charge who makes the decision to target it.

Like people who know that that house might have the guy's kids in it. Do we target or not, right? Like, there are tons of people who are involved in this decision, and there are so many factors that weigh in, right? And I don't, it's a sad reality, right? Like, I don't advocate collateral damage in war, but it happens, and it's a reality, and people have to make those decisions. War is not clean.

And it's just unfortunate. And I, when we were working, we were working in the Middle East and I was working with a Delta Force guy. And he was the nicest guy ever, like a family man. He had actually like his own nonprofit that like helped women learn self-defense and just the nicest guy. And he was teaching this triage class and starts telling this story about, you know, missions where he went in, like, his missions were specifically to go in and kill people, right? Like you and your team are going to go into this place. You are going to kill the people there.

Like, you know, very close range shooting or hand-to-hand combat, like telling stories about team members that he lost on those missions. And so I asked them, I was like, what kind of psychological care do they give you? Because there's no way. So for the CIA, they do a time. ton of psychological testing. Beforehand.

Yes, before they hire you. So I'm assuming that part of all the special forces is also tons of psychological testing, you know, on paper and, you know, through exercises to make sure that you are not going to break because not everybody has the mental fortitude to do something like that. So he was saying that, you know, before they go out on a mission, they go out and the team is together and they go through exercises every day to like be in the mindset to be in practice and they have psychologists on site that they talk to and they like are you know they are debriefed by and after the mission they are also debriefed and that there's a ton of mental work that goes into

that type of work because you have to like you can't you know you watch you watch james bond or euthan hawk or whatever and they have like their issues but they just kind of bear their emotions. That's not real. These people go home to families. You know, like most of the soldiers out there, the intelligence officers, they have families back home. Like you have to be able to reconcile it somehow.

You have to find a way. So at the CIA, we have actually in-house psychologists and medical staff that you can talk to if you need to. But you, you know, for the for the deltas, it was a part. part of their mission for us, like you have to know to go talk to them, right? Like you have to be comfortable being vulnerable in those areas because if you are not comfortable being vulnerable and taking care of that yourself, that actually becomes a vulnerability for you.

And in the intelligence industry, that's huge. Like you want to have no vulnerabilities because that's what outside intelligence forces will target. Does that make sense? Yeah, definitely. Did you guys, when you were out in the field, did you guys ever like, Like have any suspicion of you guys being targeted by other agencies, foreign agencies? I wasn't.

I think we felt pretty secure. I was usually in a situation where I felt secure. I'm not entirely certain about Andy. Funny enough, when we left the agency and we became overt, so our cover was rolled back after we left. there were a couple of times where we met people where we were like, this seems dicey here, you know, because we were known intelligence officers.

So we just kind of, you know, did breast practices and we were fine. But I think, you know, you're always on alert when you're overseas working for the agency. So, you know, I never noticed anything overt that, you know, being approached or being targeted. But, you know, even diplomatic officers are targeted sometimes in, like, countries like Cuba, countries like Russia, right? So. Have you ever been to Cuba? No. And I don't think I ever can. Oh, really?

I'm kind of sad about it. Why? I, so there are certain countries that are on a no-go list for me. Okay. Because I think that they are hostile enough to just pick you up. Pick you up, throw you in jail, use you as leverage, you know, stuff that I'm probably the public. doesn't normally hear about. Every once in a while you hear about somebody like, so some, you know, Iran picked somebody up as a spy.

And you're like, oh, like, you probably just shouldn't have been there. Yeah, so there are definitely, there are a handful of countries that I think are too hostile. And I think it's too big a risk because we are overt. So this is just you personally won't go there. Correct. Well, I mean, there also. Well, I mean, technically we're not allowed right now. Correct.

Yeah. So there are, there are certain countries that unless you're assigned there, you don't go to. But they are all the same countries I would not go to now. So for all the same reasons, right? I mean, it's just a hostile government. So, like, you know, I wouldn't test China right now. Russia, Cuba, Iran. They're just, they're too hostile.

You don't know. I mean, all you are are a bargaining chip, right? Like, you show up. They run your name. You know, if you pop up on any kind of database that they have, or, you know, if you're there long enough that some, Like they've, because we're, because our covers rolled back, we're known. You know, all they have to do is pick you up and say, oh, you're spying.

So they could find, they could run you, like see your passport going to Russia. They could run your background check and they could find out that you were ex-CIA. Possible. You don't know. So that's the issue, right? Because it's intelligence. It's all secret. So I have no idea who knows who I am.

Is that your biggest concern? Because you're ex-CIA, that's the reason. you don't want to go there. Yes, absolutely. So, like, my parents went to Russia on a cruise. No big deal, right? Yeah, it is just because Andy and I are actually overtly former CIA. And that's all somebody would need to pick us up and be like, you guys are spies.

And you guys talk about it on the internet and people know you. Yep. I wonder if a lot of people from the city, do most people in the CIA like keep it hush, hush after they leave? A lot of people do. Especially if, so there's a number of paths you can take when you leave. A lot of people contract and go right back in. So they just keep everything under because there's no reason for anybody to know. And then some people when they leave, they leave into jobs where they already have something set up.

Like I have a friend who, you know, left right into, like she, you know, networked with somebody and there was an interesting job that came up. So she left the CIA to go directly into the job she's had ever since. no reason for her to roll back her cover. People who stay overseas also don't roll back their cover because it's tricky. If they are stationed overseas and then leave the agency while still overseas, they don't roll back their cover because that's just a tricky situation for them. But you'll see, I mean, there are enough people out there that even with cover rolled back, if you look on like LinkedIn, you know, there are certain signs, you know,

people say, I worked for the USG. You know, like, what's the U.S. Yeah, the U.S. government. You know, a very generalized thing on there. So they probably have their cover rolled back, but they're careful not to put details. And we're only allowed to say so much anyways, you know.

Even with cover rolled back, all your language has to be approved. It's all very generalized. Nobody knows what you're talking about if you're trying to get a job. So, you know. How specific is that? when you're like officially leaving the CIA like I'm curious talking to you and Andy like

how specific are they with what you are and aren't allowed to talk about and how often do you are you communicating with them like because he's he mentioned that every time he does something public he has to like have correspondence or something right so you're supposed to um it's like anything written is supposed to go through a review board and then they look at all your language that relates to the agency um I mean, like my resume, they picked over every single word and it came back with all kinds of marked out things and then replacements. Like it just has to be very general. You can't have any specifics.

The biggest concern is revealing like sources and methods. So we don't ever talk about like specific places we went to or talk about like specific methodologies that we use. And, you know, specific tradecraft. So, yeah, when you're generally out and about talking, you just kind of try to stick to the rules because there's only so much review that they can do anyways. So you just try to police yourself, make sure you're not divulging anything important, right? What do you think about Edward Snowden living in Russia and being protected by Russia? Edward Snowden.

Because he's obviously, they know he's ex-CIA. Is he NSA? He was an NSA contractor. I have very strong feelings about Snowden because so, so I am a fan of whistleblowers, right? Like something, if something is like, like the government can do wrong things. People in the government can because, right, the government is made up of people. So people can be corrupt. People can be shady.

So of course it's possible that something that should not be happening is happening. happening, right? Like something that doesn't have enough oversight. Right. Like, so whistleblowers, great. Like, let's keep things in check. Mm-hmm. I do not see Snowden as a whistleblower.

I, he, he, he, I had other names for him that I will not use. You can use them. I, he, he divulged, like, classified information. for what I consider to be no good reason. If there was something going on that should not have been going on, there is number one, a chain of command to follow to report it.

You do not just release classified information to the world. And the fact that he went to, like, I think he ran to Cuba first and then to Russia, like our actual enemies, right? I think he went to Hong Kong. Or Chinese.

I mean, anyways. So Hong, right? So Hong Kong, Russia, not friends, right? So I feel very strongly that maybe he thought he was doing the right thing. My guess is he had a very good handler who convinced him because that's how it works, especially with those types of countries, right? He had a good handler who convinced him he was doing the right thing for his country. He was not doing the right thing for his country.

And for me, I was really affected because that data that he, like that data and those programs that he released, like, targeters use those. Like, I, like, anybody who thinks that their information is private. What do you mean targeters? So, targeters use data, right?

Like, that's what I do. That's my job. Like, or what's. So, targeters use all kinds of data. It's like being a private investigator, like, on crack. Like, because you have access to tons more data, just because of

the government has access to data. So it's like how, like, if a private investigator goes online and they can see your Facebook page and your Instagram and there's certain things that they can find out about you, right? Like, imagine that, like, exponential, right? But that data comes from somewhere. So, like, Apple and Google will share it. You know, I just. With the government. Right.

With the government for a purpose, right? Like, without that, it is very difficult. Like, that information helps us. us find terrorists. That information helps us stop terrorist attacks. That information helps us find intelligence officers in our country and overseas who are trying to do our country harm, right? Like, that information is not telling me that you are cheating on your wife. Like, if you think that, like, I have huge issues with people in privacy because, like, if you are online, anything digital, if you have a phone or you go online,

there is no privacy for you. I hate to tell you, like, I don't care what agreement you sign or whatever. It exists. Somebody can hack it. Somebody's collecting it. It's being used, whether it's being used by the government

to stop terrorists or to collect intelligence for our country or whether it's being used by marketers to advertise to you. It's being used. It's not private. So when the Snowden thing happened and, And a number of people started chimed me up and being like, oh, my gosh, look what the government's doing and they're spying on us. We are not spying on you. You know, if the CIA, first of all, cannot spy on an American.

They have to have permission to touch anything American related, like U.S. sit related. The FBI can. That's their purview, right? Like, they are responsible. If the FBI is watching you, you're probably doing something wrong. If you're doing something wrong and you're worried about your privacy, you should probably stop doing something wrong. If you're selling drugs and you're worried that your privacy is being invaded, you should probably stop selling drugs. Like you're doing something wrong.

Yeah. And the CIA is not looking at you. I promise you, unless you are an undercover, like Chinese intelligence officer, nobody's looking at your stuff. Nobody's listening to your phone calls. I promise. Right. Well, wasn't his overall reasoning for doing this was because of the so-called Patriot Act that was enacted after 9-11 was used. And it was actually proven that they were taking transcripts and actually recording and actively listening into like millions of Americans phone calls, whether they had any sort of reason to do it or not.

Right. So think about, like, the easiest way to gather data, right? So, like, you have a giant bowl of M&Ms here, right? And I need to get, like, the green M&M that's in the middle. Like, that's the one I'm interested, is that green M&M in the middle, right? I'm not going to, like, be able to dig through and find that little green M&M. The fastest way for me to do it is to scoop up your entire bowl of M&Ms and then sift it through a filter, a software program, right? Sift it through until my filter, my software program, pops up that green M&M that I'm looking for.

Like, that's the most efficient way to do it is to do giant grabs. I'm not really looking for the red M&M or the yellow M&M. I don't care about the brown M&M. Like, none of that really matters to me. I'm looking for this one thing, and the best way for me to get it is to just do a grab-all and sift through it. Like, I'm not actually listening. like nobody's listening to all those conversations. Think about like millions of conversations.

There are not people out there just listening to conversations. That's not, you know, like I said before, right? How does it work for that? It's an office with cubicles, like office workers. Is it some sort of like AI that's basically like scanning all of these phone calls and text messages looking for keywords? Or what is it? So I couldn't talk about it even if I knew about it. But I will say that, you know, the analysis is done by analysts, human beings, right?

So data collection is done the way any company would do data collection, right? I mean, it's just a different style. But like Google collects your data, like Apple collects your data, tons of people collect your data. It's all done the same way, right? It's all pulling tons of data. In the end, it's a person. me or somebody else that's going through that individually, you know, eight and a half hours every weekday, looking for connections, looking for information,

you know, there's there's not time. Like, we are very focused, right? Like, we know who we want and we know how to get there. We are not just idly listening. You know, it's not like when you flip through YouTube and you're just idly watching people. It's not that. Like, we have a job. Isn't it also true that we haven't caught any terrorists through the Patriot Act by tapping people's phone calls?

Hmm. I do not know the answer to that question. Okay. And I will say that... Aidan, maybe you could Google it, maybe find some fake article. Some fake Russian article. I will say that. I'm not...

I'm not... Terrorists caught through the Patriot Act or tapping American phone calls, something like that. Yeah, and I will say that I'm not saying that something shouldn't have been dumb about the Patriot Act, right? The Patriot Act was something that came out of 9-11 for a specific purpose. And I think things like that oftentimes, right, because it was broad. So because it was broad and already in use, it's easier to just kind of keep it there. Yeah. So I'm not saying that shouldn't have been reviewed because I think that, you know, a policy, particularly if a policy comes out of like,

a time of war, that needs to be reviewed, right? Like, is it still meeting the purpose? Can we narrow it? Right. So that's why I say, you know, I support whistleblowing, right? I support reviewing things that are already in practice because, you know, maybe something that was okay the first three years after 9-11, you know, isn't okay 10 years down the road. Maybe that's unnecessary. Maybe it's reaching too far. Maybe you do a review and you find out. that it's not serving its purpose. You're not actually catching terrorists, right? I mean, the information,

even if it wasn't carrying, you know, capturing terrorists probably was good for other forms of intelligence that nobody's talking about because nobody cares. Doesn't have as much of, like, impact when you talk about other forms of intelligence. Right. But, yeah. I guess, I mean, the hard part to deal with

is the fact that they use something like 9-11 and the clever marketing of calling it the, quote, Patriot Act. Yeah. To sort of pass it through with any review to push it through. They were trying to be so deceptive. And then some guy got on the stand and lied, straight face lied about doing this stuff. Yeah.

And maybe I can understand from that perspective why Ed Snowden felt so strong about it. Yes. So that's what I think, that's where I think like he had his feelings, right? He had his feelings about it. And then it had issues already, right? So it wasn't like this perfect magical thing that was working and he blew it. Like he had feelings about something that was already, you know, needed a review that could be done differently, right? That maybe needed to change at this point in time.

What I don't agree with was the way he went about doing it. I feel like that just there would have been a better way. I think just blowing all the information out and then running to a hostile, you know, a country that is, hostile to U.S. intelligence, I don't think that that was the right way. And I think it hurt a lot of things. I think it possibly hurt more than it help. Right. I see what you're saying. But if he would have gone through the right avenues, if he would have gone through the right chain of command, it might not have gone public. And it might not have hit all these news stations and made the public aware of it. Yeah. Does the public need to be aware of it? I think so. I think it can do,

it might do it might do some harm up front but I think long term if I mean it's just like just like with the CIA or the government making it public that they're aware of UFOs or extraterrestrial

wow easy for you to say aircraft or whatever it's better if the public is aware of it people are looking for it people understand it I feel like it is going to help the neighbors or help the world understand this thing. And I feel it's the same way with something like this.

If something was underhandedly put in place to benefit something, even though it was not the right thing to do, sometimes just to light a fire is the best way to shine light on something. And maybe if he would have gone through the right chain of commands, there wouldn't have been the public light shining on it to expose it for its flaws and to expose the government for all their flaws. Right. I mean, I agree that, you know, a case-by-case basis,

that public knowledge of certain things has a benefit. But I also believe that there are lots of things the public doesn't need to know about. Like, and the problem with the way Snowden went about it was the fact that it not only revealed methodologies to the American public, It revealed methodologies to all, like the world. So all these other government and intelligence services, friendly or not, suddenly knew something we were doing. And that completely cuts off an avenue of our ability to collect intelligence. Like suddenly, like we are short information, you know,

and that gives them a leg up. And maybe it's something like they had never even thought about or considered doing. Maybe it's something that they, because they have a dictatorship, are like, that's a great idea. Now we will do that. Like, we'd never thought about it before, but now we'll do the same thing where now America can't do the same thing. Like, we've lost our edge. And now somebody else has gained an edge. So that's my issue with it.

Like, with, you know, what does the public really need to know? I don't know that they need to know a lot. It was like, my mom, I believe. believed in Santa Claus until I was 10 because my mom did such a good job every single year at like building the story like everything was hidden it was different handwriting different wrapping paper the cookies were always gone there was always like a note like I mean she was elaborate and the only reason I discovered it was because my fifth grade teacher in the middle of class like outed the fact that there was no Santa Claus but you know how rude

rude it was a little devastating but did I really need to know like I was having an enjoyable experience every year not knowing that there was no Santa Claus actually ruined Christmas for many many years afterwards like I would rather have just been in the dark and enjoyed Santa Claus the whole time like there are lots of behind the scenes things that are secret because it gives us an edge keeping them secrets right and people don't need to know those things like the public does not need to weigh in and judge all of the decisions that the CIA or the FBI or the, you know, ICE or whatever makes, right? Because they are specializing in that field. So, well, I think there is some benefit when something is revealed, something huge, right?

Like, I'm sure, for some reason, Vietnam era comes to minds, right? Like, there are certain things that are beneficial when the public knows, but I really think it's, like, less than half of what's out there. is in any way important for public to know. I just don't think it's necessary. What does this say? U.S. Patriot Act. That's way too small.

There's nowhere to be able to read that. Hells, investigators. Anyways. Yeah, so it may be true. I've heard it from multiple talk shows that I've listened to, or not talk shows, but different people online that study this stuff. They dedicate their lives to just researching, like, the policies that are made and, you know, how effective they are.

Yeah. And I think it was, it might have been part of one of Snowden's recent documentaries where he mentioned that. Yeah. And it's definitely, I mean, I believe in checks and balances, right? And I think that there should be checks and balances in place. There should be reviews in place. I think sometimes that either doesn't happen or it goes, you know, there's just too much pressure. Like the whole, you know, waterboarding.

You know, and I don't agree with everything the government does, but... Well, I mean, it is kind of interesting that he is in Russia right now, and he's living, like, normally in Russia. I mean, do you think there's some sort of, like, weird leverage thing going on between Russia and the United States by Russia, letting him stay there? My guess is that they... My guess is that he knew enough. leaving that it was worth them keeping him.

So it's not like it's going to ruin the relationship between the U.S. and Russia. He's like in the grand scheme of things, a small potato. But having him there and having his knowledge, you know, is beneficial for Russia. Like they can spend years asking him questions about things. Right. Because he lives there and they've given him, like, is he a citizen now? I think so. Yeah.

I'm not 100% sure, but. Yeah, it's in their best interest. It's like no skin off their nose to let him live there. And it's in their best interest to have him there and have access to him and answer questions. I wonder what they would do, though, if the U.S. said that we would take him back and basically wipe him of all his charges. I wonder if they would let him come back. That's interesting. I don't know.

They probably would. I mean, how beneficial would it be for them? Like, they already know. they already know in theory because I don't know the man but they know he's not like strictly loyal to the United States government right so why not let him come back see what more information he can get it might even be risky for the United States to let him back because they might think that he's now you know working for Russia or providing some sort of yeah I mean

information to other countries now I mean it's kind of yeah he'd be followed by FBI forever right oh yeah yeah so what is In your opinion, what is like the overarching view of the United States from these other countries that you visited? So. Like, what is their perspective? I'm sure you spent a lot of time talking to, a lot of different people. Yeah. So I can speak mostly for Asia.

And the perspective there is really interesting because the United States has a lot of influence throughout Asia. Just historically from World War II. But China is their actual neighbor. And China has a longer. with all of the Asian countries, like East Asian, Southeast Asian. And it's really impressive to see the fine line that the like ASEAN, basically, countries walk, right? Like, they want, they don't, China's aggressive, so they don't really want to be, like, under China's thumb. But the United States isn't going to step up in the way that they want them to step up all the time.

I know Obama did like an Asia pivot, but that changes president to president, right? Like whatever the focus is, changes over time. Where China, like that is their backyard. So China's interested in having control over those countries through trade, having control of the waters for their Navy. So it's this really interesting dynamic of, you know, they like the United States.

They see us as a power, like a power for. good, a power, an ally. But China's sitting right there, and they have to, like, they cannot ignore China. Like, if they had to choose, my bet would always be on China. Like, if they ever had to choose between who they were going to back, because America's far away, I think so. I mean, that's my, from my experience, because, you know, sometimes America goes through its moods, right?

Sometimes America just doesn't want to be involved, and they're like, well, America's not kind of backs up this president you know some like america's far away so by the time it took us to do anything like china's literally sitting right there and then you know the culture is a little bit different like everything i was saying about you know you need to be able to put yourself into the shoes of the ties of the cambodians of the malaysians right like has america done a good enough job or diplomats doing a good enough job of doing that to be able to have those discussions you know yeah no It's, it's so crazy how, you know, the different relationships between different, different countries that, you know, are having to deal with, you know, playing both sides or being a part of a tug of war between different countries just because they're stuck in the middle of these two superpowers. Like, you know, right now with Russia and the Ukraine.

Yeah. It's so crazy. And America doesn't have as much sway as it used to. We're a lot more goal-wise now. there are other countries that have come up. So like in the, when we were in the Middle East, so I've never been to, I've never actually been to South Asia, but when we were in the Middle East,

we were close enough to South Asia, so like India, Pakistan, that we met a lot of people from those areas there. And it was fascinating to watch the relationship there, like, America's not even, like, barely a consideration, you know, and certain things, but I mean, really, like, they are dealing with their neighbors. Like in the Middle East and South Asia, like they are dealing with their immediate neighbors because that like they have nukes, right? Like that's who's going to affect them, you know, and then there's always the question of is America going to get involved or not, right?

Like if a country doesn't think that America is going to back them up, they have to start thinking about their other options. So the further, the more like nationalists we become, the more everybody else like there's going to, there's a power vacuum that happens. Other people fill in. you know there can't be a vacuum somebody's going to fill in that spot and the scariest part about it is too that those countries are so like you said so much more aggressive and they'll take extreme measures like way harsher than i feel like the united states would even take well because there's a history there i mean think about how old the countries you know i mean we just we were talking earlier about how young america is like there's this very long history in these regions um you know so lots of baggage lots of you know disputes that were, you know, are still kind of festering, you know, you can see it when you read about the border disputes in the area, lots of cultural issues that I think Americans, like, we can't even relate to. Are you, I was talking to Andy last time about how in some of the embassies in Cuba and

Russia, the American embassies, they, there were a lot of people in different agencies, like the CIA and the FBI that were experiencing, like, crazy headaches and migraines and experiencing disorders. Because you know about this. Maybe you can explain it better than I can. But basically they were like targeting radiation towards these embassies that were giving people head injuries, basically. Yeah. So there are certain countries that like to play dirty.

So I still say, I mean, whatever you think about the CIA, like America has standards, right? We have lawyers. We have laws. We have standards. You know, we have a Democratic government. But there are other countries that do not. Like they, what I would consider, play dirty. Like, they will kill your dog, you know, just to mess with you.

Just to let you know that they know who you are, right? You know, they'll do things to make you sick, to make you leave, to make it so uncomfortable for you to be there that you'll just go. Because, I mean, they just don't want you there, right? They'll do things to mess with you. They'll surveil you, like, obviously. So you know that you're constantly being watched, you know. Intimidating you.

Right. So, I mean, there's lots of different tactics that intelligence agencies use. You know, the ones we think about are the ones where everything's a secret and nobody knows and everybody's doing, everybody's doing things in the shadows. But then there's kind of the dirty side where they do things overtly just to harass you, harass you, intimidate you. There are intelligence agencies that use, you know, blackmail and manipulation, which in the CIA's view is not, like, that's not a functional way. Like that is not sustainable, right? Like, if you're blackmailing somebody for intelligence, it's not.

really the best way to go. Like that's not the best way to get intelligence. It's not sustainable that something's going to happen. You can't keep that up. Maybe you could do it once, you know. But if you're trying to build a long-term intelligence relationship with an asset, that's not the way to go. But there are plenty of countries who do it, you know.

Doesn't the United States break sort of international laws, too? I mean, don't we break a lot of laws that we just say it's okay because we're the United States? Well, so does everybody. Yeah. So all the countries do it. So gathering intelligence in like any country is illegal in every country. So to that extent, yes, you're definitely, you know, by recruiting somebody to spy on their country, like you're breaking the law.

But that's the game, right? So like that's like the gentleman's game, right? Like everybody knows it's happening. Everybody knows they're doing it. Everybody knows that, you know, like in any given country, like the Brits have spies. there the Americans have spies there the French have spies there the you know the ties have spies there like if there's an embassy or if there's a forum presence or whatever like there's spies there everybody knows it and but that's the gentleman's game right like I like I see you know you see

us okay yeah like if you're good you know be good enough to keep yourself secret you know and that's that's for me like that's the real game of you know that's the proper intelligence game, I think. Do you think because of your guys' opposite personality traits, do you think that made you guys work better together? Yeah. Because a lot of people, there's a lot of different opinions out there of people who think that the same personality types are better together versus opposite personality types.

I'm on the, I personally believe that opposite personalities fit together better, because like you and Andy, my wife and I are completely opposite. Yeah, so I think professionally being opposites on the same team, on the same operation, was awesome. Like, because we totally filled in each other's, you know, strengths and weaknesses. Personally, that makes it a lot harder, I think. I look at some couples that are almost identical in personality and they just seem to gel and, like, everything is always so. smooth. Why can't I have that?

So yeah, professionally I absolutely think, you know, you have to have people with different characteristics, different strengths, weaknesses, traits. And that really worked out for us at the agency. But at home, it's definitely much more of a struggle trying to keep balance. And I don't know if it's just because at home is like 24-7 where, you know, in an op you get together, you play in the op, everybody does their part. you know, but at home it's a little bit messier. Yeah.

Now, I mean, that's a huge, a huge change that you made from being a spy in the CIA or you were a targeter. A kinetic. A kinetic. No, no, no, not kinetic. They did not blow people up. Oh, you did blow people up. Operational.

You were one of the nice targets. Yeah, that was the nice one. The one that was going to get somebody to come and buy you a drink. Oh, yes. Exactly. Exactly. To be our friend and spy, obviously. So, yeah, so, like, what was that, like, was it something in you that happened?

Like, was there some sort of, some sort of event that made you make that decision of becoming a spy to motherhood and family life? So, once we were pregnant, we got pregnant when we were overseas, and then we came back right before we had the baby, like a month before we had the baby. Andy was moving into management. So I was always a very behind the scenes. Like I wanted to just specialize in what I did. I was not interested in moving up the ladder or any of that.

But Andy was moving into management. And just like I'm guessing any place else, like the higher you rise, the more hours you work. We were back in the D.C. area. There was tons of, you know, commuting time was just huge. and we were still trying to live our life where we had one car and we had like our little apartment like our kind of minimalistic life but it was getting harder and harder because he was having to go in early and stay in late and then I'm stuck alone with the baby after I'm working too

and we're trying to balance daycare and all the things that parents everywhere go through and I think for for me because I hadn't really done the critical thinking at that time because I was in the mindset of like, I have arrived and this is what we're going to do and this is what life looks like. But Andy was like, we can do better than this. Like I am not, he was not where he wanted to be. He wanted to be home with his son. He wanted to be on his own time. And so he was the one that kind of planted the seed of like, let's go. And I think after several months of having our new baby, and having no help because we had no family members in the area.

We were just on our own trying to balance everything. I was like, you know, moving close to family sounds good. So that's what we decided to do. And we networked into a private company and started our new life in Florida. Yeah. That's amazing. What's it been like in Florida compared to everywhere else you've been? So I grew up here.

Funny enough, Andy had to convince me come back because um i spent all of like my high school and college years here so i went to like university of south florida i went to florida state university um trying to leave i was like i'm going to be a professional and i'm getting out of here like i'm going to where professional people go or whatever um so it was this big thing and i was like oh i'm i got to dc i got to the cia so when he was like let's go back to st pia i was like no no way i was like we can go to colorado Like, let's... Really?

Yeah. Why not Florida? Why were you so against it? It was really just the idea of coming home where I felt like I had achieved. So it was my own personal issues that I needed to work through, right? Like, I felt like I have achieved and now I'm taking a step back somehow. It's beneath you. Yeah.

But since, I mean, I'm glad. Like, he had traveled. So I had traveled the world, but not really the United States, which is kind of funny. He had traveled the United States. So he said the first Christmas I brought him. home it's christmas time there's lights on the palm trees it's 70 degrees you know in December and he was like from the first moment he was like this is it this is paradise um and so because he has seen so much of the united states for him to say you know st pete's the

place i was like okay like i'll i'll do it and my parents lives here my sister lives my entire mom's side of the family lives here okay i was like lots of family saint pete's not so bad Now that we've been back a while, now that we've been back several years, I'm really happy. I'm really happy that he had the idea to come back, and I'm really happy that I listen to him because he's very smart. Well, don't say that. You actually regret moving back here, and you really can't wait to get the hell out of Florida. We don't want anybody getting the wrong idea about Florida. Oh, true.

Do not move to St. Petersburg. No, Florida sucks. Go to Texas. Oh, yeah, totally. Everything goes in Texas I heard Texas is so much better than Florida Beautiful You know they got

They got the new law The open carry without a permit My gosh I've been here I just read about that That's so funny Yeah They were like there's other states too I'm like what other states

Yeah Not that it matters Because I'll never see the gun I guess Well Texas has the least gun violence right Isn't that true? I don't know I think it is I heard it somewhere

I don't know That's crazy You guys, I think you guys will stay in Florida for a while? Are you guys going to get out of here eventually? Well, so we're waiting for things to open up. We were overseas when... Florida's open. Yeah.

Well, yeah. So, funny enough, we were overseas when the pandemic hit. And the country were in completely locked down. I mean, like we, like, my children did not leave the apartment for two full months. It was like, yeah, like, you had to apply for a permit to go to the grocery store. Like, it was crazy. lockdown. Which country? We were in the UAE. Okay. Yeah. So it was really, really strict. And we...

Dubai. Yeah, we were in Abu Dhabi. Okay. Oh, and funny enough, because it's Emirates, right, it's the United Arab Emirates. Each emirate had its own rules. Oh, my God. So you couldn't even travel. Like, we were trying to get plane tickets out, and you couldn't even travel from Abu Dhabi to Dubai. Like, their borders were closed. It'd be like the border from here to Georgia being closed, right? That's insane. Yeah, it was insane. And we felt almost stuck. It was a very unnerving feeling trying to get.

They only had repatriation flights. They only flew like once a month or something. You had to get on a flight. And then they flew you to America. Like, you didn't get to pick where. So we ended up landing in Chicago. Really? Yeah, no.

Oh my God. And we were just like, what's the flight to America? And they're like, well, it's to Chicago. And we're like, okay, I'll take it. Like, whatever to get out of here. Right. So when we got to Florida, it was amazing because everything was so open. I mean, there were still the mass mandates and everything, but we were like, we can go outside.

Like, how exciting is this? Yeah, it felt really good. So we had already been planning to go to move on overseas. We wanted to go to New Zealand. Our application is still in the system. And they completely closed. And then we tried Armenia and they closed. and they closed.

So now we're just kind of waiting. You know, we love it here. The kids are really happy here. So I think we'll stay here, you know, maybe a year or two longer and then kind of see how the world shakes out and see how the pandemic shakes out. Because it's endemic now, right? Like it's not like it's going away. Like we will live with coronavirus.

We will get our booster shots. So the world has to open. So we're just kind of waiting to see. Do you think it'll end up just being like something just like the flu that everyone's used to? It's like, oh, yeah, we have the flu. We have the coronavirus. Yeah. I think eventually.

Yeah, I think eventually there will be like enough exposure, enough vaccines that it's going to level out. And it'll be a virus just like other viruses. I mean, you know, when we, so Andy had coronavirus in February. and when he got sick, he had a fever for like five days, and he was down and out, and we just had him quarantine in the bedroom. But when we lived in Asia, within the first six weeks of him moving to Asia, he got dengue fever. No.

Yeah. And I had actually just, I had been on like weekend duty where I had taken a call from a lady who was coming to get her son's body who had just died from dengue fever. So when he came and he got dengue fever, I was like, you've got to be joking. And both my parents, because they lived in Venezuela for so long, have had dengue fever. So I call my parents and they're like,

hey, it'll be fine. Like, it really sucks, but, you know, he'll make it. And there's nothing you can do for except let it ride. Like you take Tylenol and just drink water and that's it. But so the whole time he had COVID, I was like, how does this compare to dengue? because with dengue i was really really worried like i was constantly what the death rate is for dingay i don't know it's pretty high though i think um like aiden that's your cue um and what's interesting

so so when he got covid i kept asking him to compare it because i was terrified with dengue and the covid the whole time for him at least he was like he was like i don't feel good but it's not it's not as bad as dengue. Dengue, he was just in bed. I mean, it was really unnerving to watch him. But, you know, having lived overseas and having seen, you know, like malaria and Dengay and, you know, known people who have had TV and I'm like, you know, there are lots of things out there. Like coronavirus is new. Like this coronavirus is new. COVID is new. But there are lots of other terrible things out there too. So eventually this will just kind of like people will stop panicking about it. This will just be fold right into one of those other things that are also horrible to get.

It's just so weird because it's the first disease that's been hyper politicized. Yes. It's insane. Which is unfortunate because I just read something where it said like like a record high 16% of Americans don't trust the vaccine or something like that because of the politics. Well, you know, and I, so it's, it's interesting because when I worked in covert influence, you know, there was a lot of, a lot of thought put into messaging, right? So when all the, the epidemic was going, or when the pandemic was going on or is going on, like, what bothered me the most was the messaging. Like, every country had different messaging.

And then some of the messaging was terrifying. And some of it was not at all. It was like ignoring the fact that anything was going on at all. And I'm like, where is the messaging that like science is working on it? You know, we don't have definitive answers. We think this is happening. You know, there's there just wasn't a lot of, you know, it's hard when like statements are put out there like, you must wear a mask and you must be six feet apart and this is what's going to save you when

that's not actually scientifically accurate they think they think at this moment that those things will be helpful and that those things will mitigate you getting it or how sick you get if you do get it like it just wasn't I felt like they're just it wasn't caveat it enough like there wasn't enough information around it they were trying to do these sound bites that aren't really accurate it. And then now, you know, now that all people are being vaccinated, you see more and more people getting confused about do I wear a mask or do I not wear a mask? Like, I've been vaccinated, but I had COVID. Like, do we both have the same antibodies? Like, are we both? Do we wear masks? Like, yeah. And because there's no clear, like, what, you know, when all the lockdowns were happening,

I'm like, what is the expectation for these lockdowns? Because it, I thought it became clear pretty quickly that the expectation, the realistic expectation, for any of the lockdowns was not eradication. New Zealand was the only one that was like, we're going to lock down fully and we're going to eradicate. But sorry for New Zealand, you are part of the rest of the world. So even if you've eradicated it on your island, like the real goal there is to eradicate until there's a vaccine

and we can get our population vaccinated and then we can open. Like that's a more realistic goal, right? Like the real goal for the lockdowns was to not. overwhelm the hospitals it was not so that nobody got sick like that was never like people not catching coronavirus people not getting COVID yeah is not actually a realistic goal our hospital systems not being overwhelmed so that people who would normally be able to get proper care cannot and die like unnecessarily like that's a goal right like that and and it was never being said I'm like that seems to be the clear purpose we're just trying not to overwhelm the hospitals

but nobody's saying it. So now everybody's like masks shaming and there's all this confusion about, you know, when are we going to end the lockdown and all this criticism about, oh, they end up the lockdown too early, not, not, you know,

not early enough. Like, you know, it just, it wasn't clear. I saw something really funny. I think it was on Vice yesterday where there's a group of anti-maskers who are now going to start wearing masks to protect themselves against vaccinated people.

Mm-hmm. I read an article about some... That was hilarious. Private school superintendent who is telling her telling the teachers that they couldn't come back if they were vaccinated because they would be a risk. I just don't, like, I don't know. Who knows? I mean, who knows? It's hard.

It's a problem with all of everything. With all of this tribalism and the political climate, it's impossible to understand what to know what's real or what's not. And science is slow, right? Like, science is working on it. It is slow. I heard a lot of people say, you know, I don't want to get vaccinated now because we're still in the clinical trials. I get that. Yeah, totally.

I can totally empathize with that. Especially if somebody's pregnant and they don't want, and I can totally emphasize with a mother that's pregnant and doesn't want to get the vaccine because they don't know how it will affect their child. Exactly. Or if you have like an immune disorder or something, right? Like you don't want to chance it, right? You don't know what's going to happen. I get that. I think as long as we're all being honest, like,

you know, I think as long as people are aware, like, be honest that like the vaccines are in clinical trials right now. Like everybody's being vaccinated as part of this giant clinical trial, right? Like we're not going to know for a long time any repercussions. We're not going to know for a long time if we need boosters or how long these vaccines are going to work. We're not going to, I mean, there's tons of stuff we don't know because science is working on it. We just have to be patient and try to keep up with updates. Like if you try to force the hand of a scientist to give you a direct answer, like give me, you know, tell me exactly what's happening, you know, this is the one and final

answer. They can't do that. Right. And if they, if they do do that, then that should be a huge red flag to you that whatever they're saying is not accurate. Right. You know, scientists shouldn't try to act like they have the answers to everything. Their goal is ask questions, not to. Exactly. Like, they should be telling you, we think, we know this now. We think this now. But that's the extent of it. Right. You know, and you have to be open. So. Typical Ding gay is. fatal in less than 1% of cases. However, dinge. Yeah, hemorrhagic fever. Hemorrhagic fever is fatal in 2.5% of cases. What is hemorrhagic fever? So that's what the gentleman died of that I took the phone call for was hemorrhagic fever. So if you have, so usually what happens is there's four different

strains. Whoa, 20 to 50% if it's hemorrhagic. Yeah. So there's four different strains of dengue that are generally regional. So you can catch dengue more than that. You can catch dengue more than once, right? So if you catch like strain one, you can, and you travel, you can catch strain two and have it more than once. And the more times you catch it, the more likely you are to have hemorrhagic fever, which is basically, so dingay fever gives you like a really strong fever. And they call it breakbone. Your bones hurt a lot. And so when you have hemorrhagic fever, you just start to bleed. And I don't know exactly like the exact details, but I know that you basically just like your fever gets really high and you kind of bleed out, I think internally,

possibly. Oh my God. Yeah. And so the more often, so like Andy caught it, Andy caught it in Asia. But when he was tested when he had the blood test, he had a variety. We were at a part of town. He caught it in a part of town where there were a lot of like backpackers. So he actually caught a strain that's from Australia.

So now we're like, if he goes to Latin America or if he goes back to Asia, like there's still these other strains out there that he's to. acceptable to, right? And then the body, it starts to overreact because it's had a strain before, but now this one's slightly different. So that's the risk of having it multiple times. So like the immune system will overreact and sort of attack the own body? Yes. Yeah. And I mean, it's a really common thing to have over there. Like they don't have mosquito control. Like I mean, here this, it's interesting when you look at the history of the United States and you realize like United States used to have malaria, we do not any longer.

There used to be dingay fever here. We do not any longer. There were giant campaigns to eradicate America of these diseases, right? But it's not like that in Asia. It's not like that in Africa. You know, all of that still exists. The UAE actually had a really huge campaign to eradicate malaria and TB. When they came into their oil money, the health of their people was like a huge push.

So, yeah, but that's not everywhere. What about Zika? Is Zika a big problem in South America or anywhere else you've been? So I haven't heard much about Zika, which is another interesting thing, because Zika was all over the news when I was pregnant with my second child. And Andy happened to go to Latin America that year. And we were terrified of Zika. Like if he got bit and then we were together and I was like all these things. Were you pregnant with your first son or with your son when you were you? you were in South America or were you?

In Asia. Asia. Okay. Okay. And then I was pregnant with my daughter here in Florida. But Andy had a trip to South America. Oh, no. Right to like Zika land.

And yeah, and it was my, even my obstetrician was like, oh, like he probably shouldn't be going. But, yeah, so it was what's strange to me is it was all over the news. Everybody was terrified and now nothing. I haven't heard anything about Zika. No, me neither. So where? Like, it's not eradicated, I promise you. So where is it?

I looked on the CDC, because I'm getting ready to travel to Central America. And I'm trying to, like, gauge it because my wife's pregnant right now with their second kid. And, you know, I'm trying to figure out if it's too much of a risk for her to go. You know, so I think there was last year, there was like 200 to 300 cases total in Costa Rica. Oh, in Costa Rica. Yeah. And then there, like, usually certain areas. because like the mosquitoes, there's mosquito-borne.

And certain times of the year where it's the wet season, the rainy season. Yep. Yeah. So, I mean, I've been to multiple places in Latin American, never had an issue. I've been bitten by lots of mosquitoes, never had, you know, any kind of mosquito-borne illness. Right. Yeah, it is interesting. But so funny enough, where Andy caught dingay, his sister actually caught dengue in the same place.

Really? Yeah. So I think like there must just be certain areas, right? I mean, it's a backpacker place. So tons of mosquitoes in standing water. So yeah. So my guess is that when you look at cases, they're probably localized if they're not, you know, all over the place. Another weird thing about the vaccine is a really good friend of mine had had cancer when he was a child.

And he had like ungodly amounts of radiation and chemo. Wow. And it affected his body quite strangely. Like there's certain things that that really fuck him up. Like if he has a beer, he's hung over the next day for like the whole day. And like different little quirky things with him. And when I had my first kid, he went and got a T-Dap shop. Oh, that's nice of him.

Yeah, it was very nice of him. Super nice guy. And because he wanted to hang out with us and he loves kids. So he wanted to hang out with the kid. And the T-Dap shot literally had him like in horrific night sweats for like 24 hours. He was like he could barely eat. He could barely breathe. He thought he was going to die after he got that shot.

Wow. And he just got the COVID vaccine and he said nothing. Really? So it's interesting how different vaccines or different whatever, how they affect the body in different ways. depending on who you are. And just like the same thing with the different viruses, like the way Andy caught Diengay and it affected him like that.

My wife had coronavirus. She got it. She was like deathly ill for 10 days. Wow. And I was around her the whole time like helping her and doing anything. I never got it. I never even caught it. I didn't catch it either.

I was right there with them. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just, it's really interesting. It's me, it's one of the things like you never know how the virus is going to affect you. You never know how the vaccine is going to affect you.

I find like, I find biology to be like this super inaccurate science because there's so many factors. Right. Like your body's history, like your current state of health. I mean, there's, you can't guess. I mean, you can kind of guess. Like, it's how I feel about birth control, right? Like there's, you're trying to change your biology. There's tons of different types of birth control.

You have no idea what any one of those are going to do to your body. Right. So you just guess and you kind of keep figuring out. Hope for the best. Right. Yeah. Well, cool, Ghee. I appreciate you doing this.

Yeah. I think we're about at our time limit, but I really appreciate your time. I had fun talking to you. Yeah, it was a pleasure. What about, are you guys planning any more big podcasts or projects anytime soon? So we are going to work on a big project in Maine for the next couple of months. We're doing a, it's called OpDef and it's operational defense course that we are. that we are building.

So we're really excited about it. So we're renting like a little house in Maine off the coast. And we're going to just kind of like pretend to beat each other up for two months and practice all our moves, right? And get them on video for people so they can learn how to defend themselves more from the perspective of, you know, prevention. Not like how do you actually get into like a Bruce Lee style fight, but more like prevention and then how do you get out of it? like somebody attacks you, right? Because I'm never going to take a man down, but I can get out of something for sure. Right.

I can prevent it and I can, you know, get out of a grip. So those types of things that I, we're hoping will be helpful for women or older people. I mean, men too, but, you know, people, make people a little bit more confident to be out and about. We're also going to start on a situational awareness course to go along with these things too. because surveillance learning surveillance is one thing right we we have something called red team so we teach surveillance and we teach surveillance detection but that's like a level up from what most people need so situational awareness for you know your college daughter or um yeah you know your wife or whatever and then you know operational defense opt-def so they can if they

do end up you know getting their wrist grabbed they can get out of it for sure yeah and get out of Is this all on Everyday Spy website? It is. What's it Everydayspy.com? Everydayspy.com. Go check it out and check out their podcast. It is probably my favorite podcast on this face of the earth. Just because listening to the different things, the different things you guys learn and

the ways of thinking and the critical thinking and how it applies to everyday life. It's just, it's fucking amazing. I mean, everyone could benefit from that, in my opinion. Yeah, I think, and the more people we have that, you know, start really, like, just sort of start thinking deeper, like the deeper conversations. we can have and the more information we can exchange and the closer to truth we can get. Cool. Well, thanks again. Yeah. Thank you. All right. Bye, everybody.