Dark Downeast - Inside the State Police Unsolved Homicide Unit (Maine)

Episode Date: March 21, 2022

Semper Memento. Always Remember. Those words guide the work of the Maine State Police Unsolved Homicide Unit. In this special release episode, I peel back the curtain on the Unsolved Homicide Unit and reveal what goes into re-examining and investigating long standing homicide cases in the state of Maine and how a team of experts collaborates in pursuit of one common goal – to find answers.Each of the individuals you’re about to meet would agree with me here: The most important story to tell is the one about the victim so that they are never forgotten and their legacy is honored, even and especially if their story doesn’t have an ending yet. The Unsolved Homicide Unit becomes part of those stories, assembling each piece of a nebulous puzzle so that hopefully, one day, they can give the victims and their families the ending they deserve.As someone who is deeply invested and interested in the work that it takes to solve a cold case murder, and as a podcaster who has spoken their names and shared the work they’ve done on the cases I cover, it is an honor to introduce you to members of the Maine Unsolved Homicide Unit – Commanding Officer Jeff Love, Assistant Attorney General Lara Nomani, Forensic Chemist Alison Gingras, Victim Witness Advocate Renee Fournier, and Investigator Jay Pelletier.Cases Referenced in this EpisodeJustice for Dorthea Burke: What Finally Solved Her CaseIdentified: Stacyville John DoeA Killer Connection: The Janet Brochu Cold Case  View source material and photos for this episode at darkdowneast.com/unsolvedhomicideunitFollow @darkdowneast on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTokTo suggest a case visit darkdowneast.com/submit-case Dark Downeast is an audiochuck and Kylie Media production hosted by Kylie Low.

I remember the day I got the email. It came through to the Dark Down East inbox, showing only the subject line and the first few words of the message. Hi Kylie, I'm a corporal assigned to Maine's Unsolved Homicide Unit. I was equally nervous and curious as I clicked to see the entire email. It was from Jay Pelletier. I knew his name. The next line read, I would love to pick your brain about potentially collaborating on some of our cases. Call anytime. What unfolded from that first email and several phone calls later

was an idea that turned into a plan to peel back the curtain on the main unsolved homicide unit and reveal what goes into re-examining and investigating long-standing homicide cases in the state, and how a team of experts collaborates in pursuit of one common goal, to find answers. Semper Memento. Always remember. Those words guide their work as they use all resources to review, analyze, and investigate with renewed insight Maine's unsolved homicide and missing persons cases, exhausting all leads with the purpose of bringing resolution and justice for the victims, their families, and the people of the state of Maine. In this special release episode, I'm digging into the unit that digs in to Maine's unsolved homicides and missing persons cases.

I'm Kylie Lowe, to tell on Dark Down East. Those lives lost to homicide and disappearance within the state of Maine and Greater New England, and the families and friends who love them. There are other humans surrounding those victims and their surviving family members too. They are the detectives, prosecutors, forensic scientists and crime lab technicians, advocates, and other individuals and agencies who make it their life's work to see justice done. Each of the individuals you're about to meet would agree with me here. The most important story to tell is the one about the victim so that they are never forgotten and their legacy is honored,

even and especially if their story doesn't have an ending yet. The Unsolved Homicide Unit becomes part of their stories, assembling each piece of a nebulous puzzle so that hopefully, one day, they can give the victims and their families the ending they deserve. As someone who is deeply invested and interested in the work that it takes to solve a cold case murder, and as a podcaster who has spoken their names and shared the work they've done on the cases I cover, it is an honor to introduce you to the members of the Maine Unsolved Homicide Unit. Commanding Officer Jeff Love, Assistant Attorney General Laura Nomani, Forensic Chemist Allison Gingras, Victim Witness Advocate, Renee Fournier, and Investigator, Jay Pelletier.

From day one, I was just blessed and thankful to become a Maine State Trooper. Lieutenant Jeff Love began his career with the Maine State Police as a rural patrol trooper. And then my goal was to do the best job I could every day. That that worked would bring some closure to the crimes that I was investigating, whether it was a smash mailbox or a domestic violence call or taking an intoxicated driver off the road. And as time went on I found more pleasure and work in criminal cases and more satisfaction, which got me into the major crimes unit. And then I just wanted to become the best detective that I could be. When Maine's 127th legislature approved funding for an unsolved homicide unit within the Maine State Police in 2015, Jeff was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant and adopted

the brand new unit. Detective Corporal Jay Pelletier began working alongside his now Lieutenant Jeff Love when they were both in Maine State Police Troop C in Skowhegan, Maine. His career path took him to the Criminal Investigations Division, CID-3, which is now Major Crimes North, where he was promoted to detective and worked out of the Bangor Ellsworth office. When the Unsolved Homicide Unit was funded, Jay Pelletier raised his hand. I was very interested in applying because most of the cases that I worked in Major Crimes North were homicides or death cases. And you get very invested, especially in the cold cases, because of so many dynamics that are involved, the families, everything that they

endure. So it becomes a little more personal when you start investigating these types of cases. So when the position came open, I put my name in the hat, and Lieutenant Love selected me to be a part of the unit, and that's how I came to be here. When talking about unsolved cases, the term cold case seems to be used interchangeably. But you won't see that alliterative descriptor anywhere on the website for the Unsolved Homicide Unit. We don't technically like the term cold cases. We call it unsolved or unresolved. In some cases, it could be years or decades

since a new piece of information or lead has come in, but they're not considered inactive or cold. The roughly 100 unsolved homicides and missing persons cases on the Maine State Police list, which excludes Portland and Bangor unsolved cases, are first evaluated for solvability. So every case is equally important, but they may not be equally solvable. With that said, at any time, a case that doesn't look solvable, maybe it's in the lower tier of solvability, at any time it can rise to the top tier depending on changes in technology, changes in investigative strategy. It starts at the very beginning, with page one of a case file and the five people I was sitting up to a table with at the Maine State Police headquarters in Maine's capital city.

But the work on these cases extends beyond the Unsolved Homicide Unit itself. It's a collaborative effort. It's not just our unit that's working on unsolved cases. So we have about 30 detectives statewide, about 10 in three separate criminal investigations divisions. So you have Major Crimes North, Major Crimes Central, and then Major Crimes South. So with each of those divisions, they have a certain number of unsolved homicide cases. Each unsolved homicide case is assigned to a primary investigator within the major crimes units. Where we come in is when we make our assessment, if there's a case that we really think we can get some traction on, we collaborate with the major crimes units to work

on that case together. So it's not just the Unsolved Homicide Unit working on all of the cases you see on our website. It's a larger umbrella of the state police, but cooperation within separate units of the state police. That evaluation phase brings to mind images of file boxes stacked high, evidence tags, and fading pages of handwritten notes. Whatever they have on an unsolved case, it's all brought together for review by the entire team. And then it evolves into a team effort with all of us sitting here, reviewing the file, assembling the file, first of all, trying to get all the materials that are available to us, reviewing it, and then as a team with our own expertise in mind, having input on what we should do investigatively, but also evidence-wise and prosecutorial-wise, if there's any legal issues we need to consider,

if there are new people that we can interview or people that were not interviewed back then that could be interviewed now. And it's really a team approach. With an investigative plan in place, the work of finding those potential witnesses, conducting interviews, testing and analyzing evidence, and seeking answers begins. It is not quick work. This is not a job of instant gratification. The successes are fewer and farther between, so that's why we have to find smaller successes that might not be appearing in the courtroom, but discovering that a witness is alive that we can go talk to

or that we have found them, getting a new bit of information investigatively or on the evidence side of things, maybe we've discovered an item of evidence that hasn't really been tested to today's standards. So we take our wins, very small ones at a time, but yes, that is very frustrating, not getting answers right away.

For the Unsolved Homicide Unit, the small wins keep them going. Even though we all want closure in a conviction, closure comes in different forms sometimes. And that means the work that we're doing, following up on a lead, having the victim witness advocate work with that family extensively to provide them information from the investigators. And that's important. As much as we want convictions and have that formal process of closure, we also recognize that just the day-to-day work for these families is equally as important as the convictions. For forensic chemist Allison Gingras, that day-to-day work looks like making sense of

evidence that's been part of a case file for years. I started working at the crime lab in 1985. I was newly out of school. I had trained to be a medical laboratory technician. And at the time, there weren't a lot of jobs. The hospitals were struggling. We were in a recession. And I happened to hear about the crime lab. What started as a temporary position evolved into a full-time, permanent role at the Maine State Crime Lab.

Though Allison did step away from the lab for a period of time, she came back and has been an integral part of criminal investigation since the mid-80s. Her unique perspective is a critical asset to the Unsolved Homicide Unit, considering many of the cases they reinvestigate did happen 10, 20, and 30-plus years in the past, with the old technology and processes. I remember a lot of how things were done in the past, and in comparison, how things are done now. Blood, fluid, photographs, clothing, items recovered from a crime scene, any physical evidence. That's where Allison's work begins. I'm applying different scientific principles to the evidence to try to tell a story, basically, to try to find the truth.

I like to say that the evidence tells a story and it needs an interpreter. And the scientists at the crime lab helped to fill that role. As an interpreter of evidence, the language Allison uses to understand the story that the evidence is telling has only gotten more intricate and advanced with evolving technology. One type of evidence that I have a lot of experience in is the examination of blood and other body fluids like semen and saliva. Back in the day, we could identify those things. We could say, yeah, this is a blood stain, or this is a semen stain, or a saliva stain, and we would go on to do other testing on those types of evidence. And that would include

ABO blood type testing to try to tell what was the blood type of the person who left that stain or their secretor status. Were they a secretor or a non-secretor? That's something that we don't do any longer. With the advent of DNA in the 90s, that all changed. So if you can imagine having blood at a crime scene, and it's type O, and roughly, you know, 50% of the population is a type O, that was not very discriminating evidence. And, you know, back in the day, I used to think, it would be so wonderful if this evidence could carry the same weight as something like a fingerprint or firearms exams, where, you know, that they're often identifying. The evidence has identifying characteristics. Well, with the advent of DNA, that has happened. So, you know,

part of my job, a big part of my job, is revisiting some of this old evidence using today's standards and, you know, hopefully being able to identify items that contain DNA that we can really, you know, narrow the scope of who could have left that evidence behind. DNA is often celebrated as the end-all be-all in criminal investigations, but it's possible to bring closure to unsolved cases without it. There's something called the CSI effect. Because there are so many crime dramas on TV and crimes are solved in an hour,

you know, the general public, I think, overall, has preconceived ideas of what we can do and how long it takes to do some of the things that we do. And, you know, quite frankly, you know, I think most people kind of expect DNA. And DNA is wonderful when it's there, but it's not always there. And we can solve crimes without DNA. And some of the work that we've done as a unit has been that kind of work. I think back to the case of Dorothea Burke. Not a DNA case.

And yet it was brought to closure with a conviction after three and a half decades. It's all about approaching the evidence in a stagnant case with a new perspective and new strategy. You never know what you're going to find. When I open a piece of evidence, I might have some preconceived ideas of what I might find, what might be there, but I go in with an open mind and asking the questions. You know, I have a question in my mind.

What can I find here that might move the case along? So oftentimes, I'm re-examining these items and looking in a way that maybe they've never been looked at before. In addition to, you know, examining items for blood and other body fluids, I also examine items for trace evidence, as well as bloodstain pattern analysis. You know, all of these, when you put them together, they tell a story. And to be able to move the story along and fill in some of the holes, that's really how I define my success. Jay Pelletier called Allison Gingras the Swiss Army knife of the unit. Everyone at the table shook their heads

in agreement. Sitting beside Allison was Assistant Attorney General Laura Nomani. I think at heart I was always intended to be a trial lawyer. That was always where my passion was. Laura Nomani attended law school in Maine and began working at a private law firm practicing criminal defense work. She left private practice after five years to join the district attorney's office in Somerset and Kennebec counties. Laura then moved to the attorney general's office, where she specialized in drug crimes for the Midcoast and Central Maine area. Like the others that make up this unit, Laura felt called to this type of work. I jumped at every opportunity to second chair every homicide case that I could possibly fit into my schedule,

including one which was the death of Crystal Perry, which has long since been solved and prosecuted. I covered Crystal Perry's case on Dark Down East featuring Crystal's daughter, Sarah Perry, who wrote a book about her mother's life and case. In the book, Sarah Perry mentions Laura Nomani, quote, the lawyer assisting the prosecutor was Lara Nomani, a quieter woman with sleek, dark hair. I loved that they were both women. It was an unexpected bit of poetic justice. End quote.

A related side note, three out of the five people representing the Unsolved Homicide Unit are women. I like that. I asked Laura if investigating and prosecuting unsolved cases presents a greater challenge than that of a more current case. Her response confirmed my assumptions. Because if these were easy cases, they would have been solved at the time, close in time to when the crime was committed. So we have to recreate the initial investigation. We have to determine the direction that investigation took. And then we have to sort of brainstorm what other directions we should pursue. And these are all long shots. I mean, the low-hanging fruit has

already been picked. It's been picked in terms of witness interviews. It's been picked in terms of forensic testing. So we're really in it for the long game, looking at aspects that haven't been looked at before or trying to make connections that haven't been made before or trying to interpret or reinterpret linkages that we know exist and put them in a different context. They only have one chance to get it right, to bring their suspect to face charges, present a strong case to the jury, and secure a conviction. When you're dealing with a case that's several decades old, getting it right the first time becomes an even greater challenge.

From a prosecutorial point of view, we have witnesses with aging memories. We have evidence that's been moved from crime lab to crime lab. We have witnesses who have died and are no longer available. We have chain of custody issues for evidence that we may not have had if the case were prosecuted early in time. There's just a whole, there are just whole new levels of complexity. The ultimate who did it, what kind of crime is it, is the same. But in terms of getting the evidence into court, there are additional levels of complexity. The issue of aging memories and details lost to time

is also a core reason why the agencies and individuals involved in investigating and prosecuting these unsolved homicides hold information about the cases so close to their vest. It's why you'll often hear the only sources referenced in podcasts about unsolved cases are other reports on the same few public details available. Releasing too much information about a case can jeopardize the possibility of closure. You know, in the 1970s, the 1980s, even the 1990s, the clearance rate wasn't as high as it is now.

So when you try to solve those cases and you're dependent upon witness testimony, you're dependent upon what they actually remember, what they saw, what they heard, what they know from firsthand knowledge. And the extent to which investigative information has become public and it's become publicized and there's been headline after headline, I have had witnesses say to us as we were preparing for trial, I don't know if I actually knew that or if it's something that I've heard in the intervening five years or 10 years or 20 years. It's important that we try and keep their memories as clear and untainted as possible. The whole keeping information close to their vest extends to surviving family members too. Having met so many of the families whose loved ones' names remain on the unsolved case list, I've heard their frustrations that they know very little about what's happening with the ongoing investigations. It's one of the primary criticisms of the unsolved homicide unit from the families I

speak to. In fact, it's been a core issue taken up by the Maine Cold Case Alliance, an organization of family members of those lost to violent crime and disappearance in the state of Maine. That group has lobbied for bills that would allow more access to case files and the ability to hire independent help to review and investigate their unsolved cases. Different iterations of those bills have not passed. However, this call for more access and information for families was not ignored. In 2016, the Maine Unsolved Homicide Unit added a victim witness advocate to the unit.

Renee Fournier comes to her role as victim witness advocate with not only decades of experience as a crime reporter, but also a deeply personal shared experience with the families she now serves. Being a victim witness advocate started in her own home. I was a crime reporter for the Bangor Daily for nearly 30 years. And in 2001, while I was still a crime reporter, my sister-in-law was murdered by her husband in front of both of their children. And we got custody of them. As you can imagine, they both needed a lot. They were young. They were 10 and 7. And they both needed a lot of help. And we had two children of our own, my husband and I.

With the four children, Renee went part-time writing a column for the Bangor Daily News. Once those children were grown, she looked for a way to fill her time and went back to work in news media, this time at a TV station, but decided it wasn't for her. Two years later, she applied for the victim witness advocate role and was offered the position that she holds today. A victim witness advocate, first and foremost, attends to the families that are survivors of a homicide victim. So that is what our most important job is. If we're fortunate enough to go to trial, we do deal with witnesses as well and coordinate the witnesses. But our first and most important role is to be there for the family members.

When Renee started, she was tasked with tracking down family members, creating relationships, and improving communication where there was little to none before. Here's Assistant Attorney General Laura Nomani again. Before the Unsolved Homicide Unit was funded by the legislature, we did not have dedicated detectives or a dedicated chemist or a dedicated victim advocate for the families in these cases. So Renee's position was brand new and it was specifically dedicated for her to do victim advocate work for all of these families and there are a lot as you know. And many were unhappy with a lack of communication as to how their case was

developing. And it was a little bit of a hornet's nest that she walked into. And she handled it head on and she handled it beautifully. And I think at the end of the day, our goal, our collective goal of treating these families respectfully has really been met. One of the biggest parts of Renee's role is coordinating opportunities for the Unsolved Homicide Unit and the families to meet in person for a conversation. I set up situations where the family requests to sit down with the primary, perhaps Jay, and the lieutenant at the MCU. And we have these sessions where they can get some of their questions answered, or they can ask the question and then hopefully get it answered. We do a lot of that.

And Laura sometimes sits in on them and gives the prosecutors perspective. So that happens quite often, that we sit down and we meet. They create those meaningful connections with families and share what they can, knowing that it's not always everything they have. It comes down to protecting the integrity of the investigation so that hopefully, one day, they can make the call. And it's very rewarding if we do get to a point where there's prosecution to be able to make that phone call, you know, like, we got the person that did this, or we're at that

point that we're going to file charges. Jay Pelletier says forming strong connections with the surviving family members is some of the most important work they do. We're also very invested in the families, and I can think of some cases where we developed some very strong relationships with families of the victim. So, you know, when my time here is done as a detective, that's what I'm going to take away with me, are those relationships with the family members of the victims. Recent successes of the Unsolved Homicide Unit, like securing a conviction in the case of Dorothea Burke, and even small day-to-day forward motion in previously stalled cases, is attributed in part to the individuals who came forward with new information. Jay Pelletier noted that there are

two big things to remember if you believe you have information about an unsolved case. First, never assume. Oftentimes when I go do interviews, the person that I talk to has significant information about the case. And I'll ask them, why did you not provide this earlier? And typically the response is, well, you never came to see me. So don't assume that we know that you have the information. If you have the information, reach out to us. We're willing to sit down and have a conversation on any of our cases. We do listen when people call in tips and that some of those tips in recent cases that we've solved

have produced information that is very key to us moving forward. So when people do come forward, it does help our case. And second, first-hand information is extremely valuable to an investigation. What's very helpful to us, obviously, if somebody has first-hand information, if they have seen something directly, that if they've seen somebody who was dead or they've seen, especially in our missing persons cases, where that person might be, those would be helpful tips. If they saw something that might contribute to circumstantial evidence, to place somebody at a scene, that is all helpful information. While firsthand information is key,

Lieutenant Jeff Love says they consider all information that comes in. We have a number of psychics that call with information that don't have any firsthand information, but they want to provide information. I listen to all of them. But truly, we're most effective when we're getting that first-hand account or if they're sensing that a loved one is going through a tough time or a struggle because they were involved in maybe a case. That's important. That's important to us. I share phone numbers and links to the TIP form whenever I cover an unsolved main case on Dark Down East.

But what actually happens when you call in or provide a tip online? They can call our dispatch center, which they're going to talk to a dispatcher, and then they just need to identify themselves, what case they're calling about, and that they have some information they would like to speak to a detective. The primary detective will at some point get back to them to find out what they have for information. Another way is to go online on the Maine State Police website, and there's a place for them to go to the specific major crime unit that is handling that investigation, and they can report that information. Detective Pelletier and I both review that information that goes to

that major crimes unit. So the Unsolved Homicide Unit is seeing that, and we kind of get to weigh in as to how we should follow up with this lead, or is it something that we're actively working on, and we want to help that primary detective. The unsolved case of Dorothea Burke finally got its ending when a witness came forward, resulting in a conviction in February 2022. The Stacyville John Doe was finally identified as Christopher Roof 11 years later when a podcast listener called in a tip to the Maine State Police. The case of Janet Brochu is moving forward with an arrest of her alleged killer after 34 years, though the details of what finally brought that arrest forward are still to be revealed through the court process.

But those are just a few of the cases closed or progressing through the court system in the last few years. I've covered all three of these cases on Dark Down East, by the way. I'll link them in the show notes for you. We've had a lot of successes going back 30, 40, 50 years, and we're going to have more successes. And it comes from the detectives that have worked on those cases, the prosecutors, the crime lab. It's a total team effort, but it also takes the public calling and providing

information to those detectives, being patient, don't anticipate that we may know something because we may not. As Jay Pelletier said earlier, the successes are far and few between, but they are proof that the work is happening, even when the public doesn't see it, and that justice is possible. I took a moment at the end of my time sitting down with the Unsolved Homicide Unit to ask these seasoned professionals what they really think about true crime podcasts like Dark Down East. What I learned is that we all share the same hope, that the victims and families are never forgotten. Semper Memento.

I think it has its place. The first place and role of it would be to ensure that the victims and their family members are not forgotten. It's an avenue for the family to keep their loved one's memory alive. It can also maybe, I don't want to say hinder an investigation, but if information is only given out in certain amounts, because we want to keep the integrity of that investigation, people can feel the need to fill in the blanks on their own. And when that happens, that's when it becomes dangerous towards an investigation. If that information kind of circulates as truth when it's not, it can affect interviews that we do later on. But ultimately, I think it's great that these victims are not going to get forgotten, that their stories

are getting told. And when the stories are told accurately, and it's respectful to the deceased person, I think it definitely plays a role in what we do. Families, many families need to know that what happened to their loved one has not been forgotten and that the pursuit for justice goes on. So I think to the extent that it keeps these cases in the public mind and to the extent that they are presented in a respectful way for families that they serve a very, very important purpose. Where we become concerned is where witnesses are being interviewed by people who are not trained investigators, who are not working for law enforcement, who are not sharing this information with law enforcement, because it really presents

the opportunity to undermine and weaken any testimony they may offer at any time we're ready to prosecute this case. To the extent that they're offering inconsistent statements, to the extent that perhaps their statement is being taken out of context, or the question was being asked in an improper form or format, it can be damaging. And there's no doubt about that. So I am a little dual-minded about these podcasts. However, I do think that it's important for the family to know that these cases have not been forgotten. And I think it's important for all of us as citizens to know how the criminal justice

system works. Media and podcasts in general are beneficial to these investigations. It's from an investigative standpoint, as long as it's done correctly and reported accurately, and it's not dramatized or made to create that drama and buzz and all the other things that are attached with that, that it gets the word out. It allows law enforcement to maybe get a message out for investigative purposes. But there are also inquisitive minds out there that are interested in this work. And obviously we are. So we, you know, it's kind of, I get my haircut and my barber is asking me questions all the time. And I think he listens to several podcasts. And it's, you know, it's kind of rewarding and it puts me back in my place of, you know, being a college

student trying to get my criminology degree and how much love and passion I had to get into the work. And now I'm talking to someone who, you know, from the outside is looking in. So it keeps it real for me. But most importantly, I think it helps the families and as long as it's done correctly. And it's a joy to listen to a podcast or a media report when it is done correctly, because I think it helps the process and it helps everybody involved, especially those families. Especially those families. That's what it comes down to, right? It's at the heart of what I do, and it is the motivating force behind the work of the Maine Unsolved Homicide Unit. I want to leave you with this, an anecdote from Jay Pelletier

that struck me as evidence of the work and dedication of the Maine State Police Unsolved Homicide Unit and Major Crimes Units. That goes beyond this room also, and also beyond our department or active members in our department. our retirees retired knowing that cases that they worked on were unsolved. And that's very tough for a detective to accept when they retire. So some of these retirees, when I speak with them, are still emotionally connected to the case. And they're still willing to offer whatever help they can, even though they're not our employees anymore. One retiree, he was in hospice care, and he was out of state, and he was still willing to come to the state of Maine to talk with us. So it just shows the level of dedication.

I don't know how you can get any more incapacitated than hospice and still be willing to work on these cases. So all of us in this room have that dedication, and that's probably something that the public doesn't see every day. We do care about these cases. I'm going to make a Thank you for listening to this special release episode of Dark Down East, and thank you to the Maine Unsolved Homicide Unit for spending several hours of your time with me on that February afternoon. I learned a lot, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to share this with Dark Down Easter's. If you are new to Dark Down East, please follow and subscribe on your favorite podcast app so you never miss an episode. In the next episode of Dark Down East, I'm exploring another New England

true crime story and honoring the life and legacy of a human lost to violent crime. I'm honored to use this platform for the families and friends who have lost their loved ones, and for those who are still searching for answers in unsolved missing persons and homicide cases. I'm not about to let those names or their stories get lost with time. I'm Kylie Lowe, and this is Dark Down East.