Dark History - 21: A Church vs. The Feds: Who Shot First?? The WACO Siege

Episode Date: November 24, 2021

In 1993, the quiet Texas town of Waco was turned into a bloody battlefield when an extremist religious group and their leader went to war with the American Government. We’re talking assault weapons, helicopters, tanks, explosions and huge fires. Dozens were killed. Today, Bailey tells the wild story of how this stand off even happened, why the word cult was being thrown around and how the Feds may have made it all worse. Episode Advertisers Include: Apostrophe, ZenBusiness Inc, Wicked Clothes, and SimpliSafe. Learn more during the podcast about special offers!  For 10% off go to Wickedclothes.com and use promo code DARKHISTORY.

Hi friends, I hope you're having a wonderful day today. How are you? That's great. My name is Bailey Sarian and welcome to the Dark History Library. Woo! This is a safe space for all the curious cats out there who are like, hey, is history really as boring as it seemed in school? Oh, nae nae. This is where we can

learn together about all the dark, mysterious, dramatic stories our teachers never told us about. Okay, so it's my birthday week. So I am drinking alcohol and, um, Jonas also celebrating here with me. Come on, girl, shots. Okay, great, great. So, I expect a bunch of happy birthday comments if I don't see it, I'm blocking you. Great, I'm glad we got that. Oh, I should open up my book. Let me grab my dark history book.

Okay, because today we have a very interesting story that I personally thought I knew a lot about, but I did not. So, when I think of Texas, I think of big-hole hair, okay, guns, bang-bang, glamour, more guns, maybe bedazzled shirts. Huh? Oh, and text mex. I hear it's not that good, though. Don't come for me, that's just what I heard. Text mex? Not that great.

It's just what I heard. Shut up. But for a long time in the 1990s, whenever you heard about Texas and the news, you heard about a little city called Waco. Oh, yeah, and a ton of people who died there. The media said it was all a standoff between the FBI and a crazy cult who believed deeply in two things. Guns and the apocalypse. And to be fair, the group involved did believe in those things, especially their leader. But what if I told you that maybe the FBI slash federal government

were actually the crazy ones? I mean, actually, hi, welcome to Dark History, help me not discuss this many times. Yeah. Most of the stories I talk about here from the 1800s, so I really have our people's written records and memories, right? If we had cameras, we know what really happened. Well, what if I told you cameras were at Waco? But they didn't tell you the whole damn story. They were like, hi, didn't shit. Per usual, are we surprised we shouldn't be. So let me open up my book to the Texas chapter.

Oh my God, I opened right to it. Wow, it's my birthday. So make yourself comfortable because today we're talking about Waco Texas if you haven't figured it out high. Joan, yeah, I know. She's got some things to say, but let's just get into it. Texas is where our story begins. Specifically, we begin in Houston, where sweet baby boy is born on August 17th

1959. So he's a Leo. I know Joan, Leo's. With the name of Vernon Wayne Howell. Now Vernon's mom was only 14 when he was born and his dad was only 18. So his parents ended up splitting up almost immediately after he was born and his dad was only 18. So his parents ended up splitting up almost immediately after he was born and they would end up moving around Texas pretty much a lot. Vern was described as a lonely kid that wasn't doing all that green school, but what he was great at was music. Vernin loved music and he would spend most of his time playing guitar. Play music was how he connected with the people and that included the ladies. Because you know, ladies love.

Like, oh my god, he plays a guitar. Yeah. You know, yeah. And apparently Vernon loved flirting with the girls. But he had a little problem, which we'll get into a little bit later. He liked flirting with the girl that were like 14. So not ideal for the situation, but that's what he was doing.

But at this point in his life, Vernon, he didn't really have any goals or like a sense of direction until he embraced the seventh day Adventist Church, which I'm just gonna call the SDAs because seventh day Adventist Church is, you know, come on, it's me, hi, I can't really talk. So the SDA is a Protestant Christian denomination. That's typically more strict on how people should live

their life. Like for example, allow them don't eat me, which is totally fine, especially pork. And we'll follow some of the ancient scriptures like the Old Testament, you know, like stoning women to death and shit, just kidding. I don't think they do that. But you know what I'm saying? Where it's like women, you are third in line. Husband, kids, you're us. Shit like that. You get it. Now there's other Christians that

mostly follow the teachings of Jesus or the New Testament as like their main focus. So these people, old school, they like it old school. The other important thing the S.J.s believed is that Jesus is coming back any minute now. Like he is, he is coming, okay? And they must be prepared. This is a concept we will see probably later and will become very important to understanding

who the group was at the center of this dark story. But more on that later I guess, be Bob Boop. So there is this guy in the churches and was Victor Houtef. Now Victor had some very interesting ideas. He wrote a book called The Shepherds Rod, which basically said, we the people need to focus on the apocalypse even more than we already do. Like, it's come a bitch and we need to be ready. Now most religions have their own views about the end of times and Victor based his idea of the apocalypse on what he described in the book of Revelation. It said that the end of days will be marked by something called the opening of the seven seals. So the seven seals are the things that prevent all the biblical curses from being released. So like, you know, it's like a seal.

Great. I'm glad we're on the same page. So it was written that when this time comes, a certain prophet will open the seal, right? And it will set into motion a friggin catastrophic event that would unfold just before Jesus returns to earth from heaven to save his followers. You know, fuck yeah, they're super-ampt about this seal. So it was believed that only one special person could open this seal. It was just one person out there who could open that can, you know?

And that person was called the Lamb of God. Bless them. They could open the seal. Incredible. Now Victor, he considered himself to be the prophet that was sent directly by God. He said he wasn't the Lamb. He's like, I'm not the lamb that can open up the seal.

But he did claim that he was in direct contact with God. Like God was on speed dial. The papoo, hey God. Hello. Can I open a seal, you know? But the other members of the SDA church didn't think that this Victor guy was an actual prophet. They just thought he was more of a troublemaker.

They're like, dude, he's not to know good. He's just claiming shit. So they kicked him out of the church. You gotta go. Your cause and problems. Goodbye. Okay, but it turns out there are people in the church, members of the church, who were very loyal to Victor, and they really believed in his teachings

that the end was indeed coming, right? They had this fear in them, so they followed Victor. So in 1934, Victor decided to continue preaching his beliefs and purchased 189 acres of land in Waco, Texas. So he gets this land, he invites all of his followers to come and stay with him. And since they had to split away from the SDAs, they had to rebrand essentially.

So Victor called his group, The Dividians, split away from the SDAs, they had to rebrand essentially. So Victor called his group the Dividians after David from the Bible. So a lot of the names since after you're going to hear comes from different Bible verses but because we don't need to confuse ourselves with all of that, I'm just going to kind of breeze past it. For example, they called this like New Land area home, right? But it was called Mount Carmel, which is like a comes from a Bible verse. And within the first few years, there was about 125 people that moved in and like lived there.

They started to create their own little society and they sustained themselves with an orchard, a dairy farm, a sewage system, electricity, and they had their own printing press. All of this was spread among 10 buildings. system, electricity, and they had their own printing press. All of this was spread among 10 buildings. Like it was a big old community, and it was just getting bigger, because at that time it was said that they had over 100,000 members worldwide that were receiving like the literature that Victor was creating to spread his beliefs, you know. Great. Even though the country was in the middle of

the Great Depression, this little community was flourishing. Yes, and it would continue to flourish until 1955 when Victor died at the age of 69. Hey, 69. Hey, an age to go out, you know? So when this happened, the Davidians had a little internal struggle. So Victor's widow started saying that she was now the prophet of God and thought she should be the new leader of the church, right? She's like, I'm in church now, I was the wifey, I step in. But then another guy pops up

and he was claiming that he was a prophet, that he was the lamb, everyone was eagerly waiting for, and that he should be made the head of the church. There was a lot of back and forth, a lot of fighting, beckoning, whatever about this for a long time, and throughout it all, everyone who thought they were the prophet said they were the owners of both the compound

and the church itself. So they're just fighting. Mimimim Joan? Great. Good. Good. Okay. So then in the late 70s, a new and final group was created that split off from the dividends. Now it was the branch dividends. So they broke off and they became the branch dividends. Great. This group was named after a Bible passage where all of branches were described

as being God's chosen ones. And the late 1960s, Israel was established as a country again. So to the branch dividends, they viewed this as a major sign that the apocalypse was just around the corner. Why you ask? Let's not get into it, but that's what they believed. So they focused their teachings and beliefs on the book of revelations and the traditional teachings of the seventh day Adventist.

That's like the simple way to explain it. Great. So this is going to lead us back to Vernon Howe, member Vernon. So Vernon grew up in the SDA Church because his relatives have been members of this church for quite some time. When he was 18, he attended something called a church revival. Now, if you've ever attended a church, maybe you've heard of them or been to like a revival retreat where you pretty much spend a weekend or a day at a bunch of church members get together and they just get like super amped up for Jesus. I went to one, it was like in the middle, we were like on a campground

and we were like, by campfire, just like, yay! Jesus. And then like, there's always someone with a guitar. It's like that. Love it. So at this revival, they were focusing a lot on the apocalypse. Normally, you just praise God, praise God, praise God. This one, they're like, the end is coming, we are all going to fucking die. Great. So this really caught Vernon's attention. Even though the SDA's church taught many different things, Vernon seemed to like tune in and just focus, hyper focus on the teaching about the apocalypse. Like he kind of loved it. I think he just loved that shit. He thought everything should be about the apocalypse because it was coming.

Vernon spent tons of time reading the Bible and he was memorizing tons of different passages and it was almost as if he was preparing or maybe even training to become some kind of leader. So Vernon is in the SDA church, right? Now before you can become like a leader of the church, you have to like be voted in by different members. Well, Vernon's behavior was really starting to bother a lot of other members in the church. They're like, he's focusing way too much on the apocalypse. Okay, we're about that, but not all about that. Like, he was just a little extreme.

There was this one time when Vernon was 20, and he started hitting on the pastor's daughter, who was only 15 at the time. And in order to justify his behavior, he was using different words from the scriptures he memorized to convince the pastor that he was going to marry her. Like, he was going to marry her and you couldn't tell him no. Well, obviously, this isn't going to go over that well with the pastor and he absolutely declined it from happening. So because Vernon's extreme beliefs that the end was near was just, you know, all he focused on, the fact that he's hitting on his pastor's

underage daughter, the church decided, the SDA church decided it'd be best if Vernon was removed. aka kick the fuck out. So Vernon kicked out boohoo, like, mm, well, he's now looking for a new church to call home because church was his life. He needs it, he wants it, he doesn't know anything else. So he leaves the SDA church and then he comes across another one and it's called the Branch Dividians. Remember, we're circling back now to the Branch Dividians? It's similar to the SDA's, just a little bit more extreme.

You got it. Great. So by the time Vernon found the branched avidians, they were already super obsessed with the apocalypse. And again, their beliefs were very similar to the SDAs. So it was just a perfect match. Like it was easy for him to kind of join in with this group, this church. match. Like it was easy for him to kind of join in with this group, this church. At this point, the branched avidians lived a few miles outside of Waco, Texas on a huge plot of land. They sold off a lot of the original land, but they still had several buildings on the property, including a church, a dining hall, there was a gym, there was a gun range, of course, and apartments for different people to live in. Now, this time, there are about 150 people living there. And again, they kind of had like their own many society. There was people doing jobs like building different structures, cooking, teaching the children, being security. I mean, they all took care of each other. There were whole families

that lived at the Branch Divinity and compound and it said that it was just a very tight-knit community. So most of the people who lived in Waco and not on like the property, they didn't really have an issue with this religious group. Local towns people remember like pleasant interactions that they had with the Branch Dividians. They were nice people. I mean their way of life was different, but to the citizens of Waco, they thought like this is America, freedom of religion, bang bang, eehaw. I don't know. So it wasn't long until Vernon met a member of the church by the name of Rachel. Great. Now Rachel, Rachel, she was only 14 years old and Vernon, he was quite in love with this girl. She was only 14 years old and Vernon he was quite in love with this girl Vernon so to me you and Joan my bird here

You know that's pretty young 14 yeah well at this time in Texas kids that young could legally get married as long as the parents agreed to it So Vernon was pretty well liked in the church so he asked his wait Rachel's father like hey can I get married to your daughter and he approved signed an agreement Vernon and Rachel got married. Soon the two of them went on to have a child. Now rumor has it that Vernon over here was messing around with a lot of different ladies in the branched dividends. He was like sampling the buffet, you know. His main little side lover was none other than the church leader of the branched dividends herself, 67-year-old Lois Rodin. Lois, who was a widow at the time, found 28 year old Vernon

to be just a smoking hobby. He was very passionate about his beliefs, and she just found it very attractive. So the two of them would spend a lot of time together, talking about the end of times, making out, doing whatever lovers do, and they tried to remain very secretive about their relationship, but many of the members inside the church, they knew it was going on. What's wild is that a lot of people were okay with it, probably because nobody seemed to dislike for an inn. But at the time, they also had to believe that you weren't allowed to cheat, and fidelity was just not a thing.

So it was like, they're very flip floppy over there. It's like make up your damn mind, okay? So you're probably wondering, barely what's going on, I don't understand. How did Vernon go from maccing it up with Lois to running what the media called a fully armed religious cult of 80 people? Question mark.

Because yeah, it happens. And I'll tell ya, it involves multiple weddings, a corpse rising from the dead, some jail time, and, an ad break. Hold on, BRB. And, we're back. Hello.

You can probably imagine that for an endating the 67 year old leader of a massive church commune as a side piece would cause a little bit of tension within the group. And surprise, surprise, it did. Specifically with Lois's son, his name was George. You see, George, George Rodin, he felt that he should be next in line to be the leader of this group, right? Like, it was his birthright.

But now, with Vernon in the picture, this was like not guaranteed. Especially after Lois officially named Vernon, her successor in 1984. Well, 1986 rolls around and guess what? Lois dies. Sad. Anyways, so the branch to Videgans, they split again. So within the church, you had some people who were like super hardcore team George, and there was another side of people who were like,

look, yeah, team Burnett, okay. They all believed the same religious teachings. The biggest difference within these groups was like who they thought should be the leader. Well, George, being the manly man he is, started wearing a gun to the meetings and started intimidating people, basically trying to get Mount Carmel for himself, but by force and intimidation.

He even changed the name of the community to Rodinville after himself, George Rodin. Yeah. So people are like wearing Team George shirts, people are like, yeah, Team George all day, and then there's Vernon's side, right? So Vernon is at his own branch of the branch of his, and this new group focused on the more religious beliefs within the group. Plus like a lot of people just really liked Vernon, so they were totally willing to follow him wherever he went, whatever he was doing.

One important change was that at this point, Vernon's followers started viewing him as a savior, not the savior, as a savior, not the savior, but a savior, which is important to remember for later. So, not the, he's an a, a savior. But remember earlier, how the seventh seals of the apocalypse were said to be open by someone called the Lamb of God. Well, Vernon's deep understanding of this Bible had many of his followers believing that he was indeed the Lamb, chosen directly by God. To the Brash Dividians, he was somebody who was put here on earth to save the people directly from the fiery pits of hell. And with his new

status as Lamb, I know so many animals, seals, lambs. Or this, that's it. Vernon started saying that he received a message from God. Yeah. Now that message you ask, well, you know, out of all the messages God could have left, you know, I mean, it's God, right? He could tell you anything was happening, what's going on, what's going on in the future, what do you need to do? But, but of course, God had one message for Vernon. Of course, he did, and that one message that he needed to have multiple wives. Typical dude, right? Like, oh yeah, God told me, I need multiple wives. In fact, Vernon said that God wanted Vernon to have as many wives as he could possibly find. I'm so sure. So Vernon went on to marry five additional wives

other than racial. Their ages, 14, 12, 16, 17. There was like a 20 year old as well, like, wow. He really branched off of that 20 year old. And two of them were actually sisters. So literally, they were sister wives. Out of all the things God can say to you. Have multiple wives? Like, come on, can we go down break?

The guys need to come up with some better ideas here. All they dream about is having multiple wives. So lame. Like you could take over the world and said they want more of a genus. It's weird. Vernon also said that the message from God told him that everybody in the community needed to be armed. So not only did God think he needed to have lots of titties, but not only did he need to have a lot of guns as well. Gods like Vernon, you need tags in your life. What are tags? Titties, ass, and guns. America.

It was their right, not just as Americans, but as children of God to have tags. And he would read scripture that said things like, quote, from now on, let those who have no sword by one." So Vernon and his people went and bought some sorts, but it's 1990s America, so sorts equals guns. Whenever anybody got a little weird about this, Vernon would say that there were a lot of children in the community, and they needed to be protected,

which there's nothing wrong with protection and whatnot, but you use a condom, first of all. Now Vernon's followers were loyal and willing to do anything for him, right? But not everybody was fully loyal to his cause. There were still a lot of people that broke off and followed George and his beliefs. In fact, George still controlled Mount Carmel at this point. And even though both George and Vernon

had followers all over the world, and they lived on the freaking same compound, they all believed that whoever controlled Mount Carmel was a true leader of the branched dividends. So at this point, they are both trying to one up each other in order to prove to the members like who actually had the powers of God. They're like, I got the powers. And George is like, no, I got the powers. So George decides to challenge Vern to a contest. A contest where both of them would try to raise a corpse from the dead and show to all of their followers who really had God's powers. I mean, if you could have raised someone from the dead, then I think you got God in you, right?

I'd believe it. So there was a cemetery on the compound. So it was suggested by George that they try to bring one of the dead people back to life. The grave that was chosen was of an older woman who had been dead for at least like 20 years at that point. So this wasn't like a freshly dead person. This was like a straight-up skeleton person. You know what I'm saying? So if one of them could indeed bring her back, I think it would be enough proof who really had the powers of God within them. George was like you down,

burn, you down, you ain't down. Come on, burn. And burns, burns like I'm down, I'm down, I'm not gonna back out. So he agrees to meet George out of the cemetery and bring this dead woman back to life. But it turns out Vernon, Vernon never actually intended to show up. And instead, he went right into the police, hoping to get George arrested for disturbing a grave. Unfortunately for Vern though, the police can't actually do anything without some kind of proof that this George guy did indeed just disturb a grave.

And of course, Vernin is like, I can help with that because unlike Vernin, George really thought he could raise someone from the dead. So George tried his best to bring someone back from the dead and it failed because of course it did, you know. So there's like a crowd, George is all embarrassed, he's like, oh my god, I couldn't bring this person back from the dead. So he ends up taking the woman's body and he hides it in a shed, in his shed. And he's like, it's probably safe there. I'm embarrassed. I'm gonna go hide myself.

Well Vernon wants to get George the fuck out of Bound Carmel. So he tries to show up to the compound with his little buddies and a bunch of like guns and get proof that George was abusing the scorps in some way, like maybe take a picture of it. But these are like some petty ass divas. George had been tipped off and was ready for Vernon to show up. So George had his own group of people there with guns and they ended up having just a full on shootout. Divas, they were blasting at each other for about 20 minutes before police showed up and

arrested Vernon and his men. Nobody was killed. It was just like a lot of property damage from the different bullets coming from my redirection. You get it. Okay, so here's what happened. Here's what happened, let me tell you. So they all get arrested, right?

And they all have to go to court and they face a judge. Now the judge pretty much tells Vernon, like, you're fine, you're safe, whatever. And this piss his George off. George starts yelling at the judge. So it's cursing him out. And obviously, this isn't going over well. No.

I guess George was just like very upset that Vernon wasn't going to be spending time in prison. And he told the judge that he hope he got AIDS because of this. That's what George said to the judge. I hope you get AIDS. Yeah, that's not good, bro. Bro, calm down. Okay, well the judge was like, uh, you fucked up, had George arrested

for being in contempt of court. Long story short, George was arrested for an and got to go back home. So guess what? Vernon's plan worked. George was now out of the way. Guess who owned the land? Vernon, he's like, it's mine. Bye. George is arrested by George, the curious little monkey. And George's life kind of goes downhill from here. And he never, he's never really able to get back to Mount Carmel to hang onto his power, which was great news for Vernon.

He didn't really care how it happened, he just wanted George out of the goddamn way. With George gone, Vernon saw his opportunity to fully step in and become the leader of the branch Davidians. But before taking over, he's like, hold on, BRB, gonna take a trip to Israel. Okay, so he goes to Israel, he meets some of his followers, and he got in touch with some biblical locations to like deeper his relationship with God. At that point, Vernon felt like he needed to rebrand

because he was bored of his birth name. Like, he needed something stronger, powerful, something that screamed leader. And and Vernon how, you know, it was his name, Vernon how, it just wasn't like the name of a leader. So he busted up in the Bible and started skimming through looking for some kind of inspiration. He's like, hmm, cloping the pages. Hmm, Judas? No, too much baggage. John? Mm-mm. I need something with like more pizzazz. David?

Ah, that feels right. You know, Vernon could have her late with David. I mean, Vernon felt like he just took down Goliath. Vernon was David. David was Vernon. So for Vernon's first name, he took the name of the famous biblical king, David. Powerful.

So for his last name, because he has a new last name, howl's not going to do it. David Howl, sounds like a teacher, no offense. So for his last name, he is like, I'm going to do, Corrush, which is actually Hebrew for the name Cyrus. And the biblical Cyrus was a king who freed Jewish people from the captivity and Babylon, very complicated, but what's not complicated, but like, you know, Kerash. So just two strong names from the Bible

that Vernon relates to on a deeper spiritual level. So Vernon, Vernon Howe is now dead to us. He's still alive, but his name is now David Crush. Okay? Enter to the scene, David Crush. There he is. Miss America. I'm just kidding, but hold on. We have to take a little at-break, BRB. So lots happened. Are you following? Are you paying attention? Corrash kind of reminds me of some kind of pie, right?

Pie? No, okay. Anyways, so here's where we get into the meat and potatoes of it all. I'm hungry, I think. So things were going pretty well for the branch to videos at this point. By 1991, they started recycling all the old lumber

from their old carriages and upgraded and built a bigger church for everybody. The message that David Karrash was spreading was becoming very popular and soon the rest of the world started to take notice. Most of the people who had lived here at the time had been a part of the branch to Vidians or even the SDAs for generations, but now people were coming from all over the world just to hear what this David guy had to say. People of multiple races and many different age groups including dozens of children like the Hedda Choice, whatever. One source described the branch to videos as a quote, clean and courteous, end quote, people. Everybody within the community was committed to making their lives on Mount Carmel just the best that it could be.

So all the people who lived on the compound or attended the church would give all of the money they earned from working different jobs around Wago. And it would just contribute in any way to make the compound better by working, weeding, I mean, doing anything they can just to make it a good place. One of the ways they made money from Mount Carmel was by buying and selling guns. They opened a mail order business called the Mac bag on their property that sold all kinds of guns. There was like rifles, pistols, bulletproof vests, all sorts of like gun stuff. Soon they took this operation on the road and started selling all of their merchandise

at gun shows across the country. Now the gun industry was booming in Texas. And like plus the right to bear arms? Oh my God, animals. Yeah. Okay, the right to bear arms was something David loved about America. So David was getting pretty famous all over the world

for his religious beliefs. When you get that famous, people really start coming out of the woodworks and accuse you of some wild shit. The press and the government started reporting that the branch civilians were stock piling weapons, making claims that they were a violent militia group and saying that something needed to be done about them. Now the branched avidians would claim that this stock pile, I'm using quotes here, was their inventory that they were actually going to sell for their gun business. Remember, because they're selling guns, so this is like their inventory. But to other people, it looked like they were preparing for a war around this time.

Rumors, there's always rumors rumors. Have you noticed? Have you been paying attention here? Here and on Mardemissary makeup, rumors is the root of everything. As soon as rumors start spreading around, okay, that's something's going on, it blows up into this massive, massive thing. And this is another example

because there's rumors going around town that David and the Bragg civilians were not only stockpiling weapons, but they were also modifying them and making them way more dangerous. And it turns out that it was illegal to modify weapons. So the part of the government that deals with major weapon crimes like this is called the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, also known as the ATF. Not ATV, because I was saying bra, bra, bra, bra, no bra, ATF.

So the ATF got word, of course, whispers, rumors. Now this church compound was receiving some various suspicious packages. Mm-hmm. Packages that looked kind of large, like large shipments of weapons, maybe even explosives. Was it more inventory for the mag bag or was it something to be used for something larger? Something illegal? Were they trying to take over the world? I don't know. The ATF wasn't sure. But David's followers said he was intelligent,

compassionate, and in no way was he ever like seen as dangerous or threatening. Well, the ATF was not convinced, oh, Nae-Nae, and needed to further investigate, but they didn't want to tip off the branched dividends as to what they were doing, you know, they had to like undercover investigate the situation. So they came up with the undercover plan where they would pose some police officers, ATV, ATF people, would pose as young college students who lived nearby and were just hanging around, watching people come go at the compound. It would have been a good plan, except that none of the ATF agents actually look like college students.

No, you see, it was obvious to the branch of Indians that these guys were actually federal agents. Yeah, how they know? I don't know, the facial hair. Okay, the thick ass mustache, the fricking nice ass car, what college student has a nice ass car. Hello, pay attention, it's small details.

Okay. Before the ATF decided to make their move, a local newspaper started publishing a series of articles titled Simple Messiah, which were all about David. And as you might have guessed with a title like that, those articles were not very pro-David. So within this article they were talking about different allegations of child abuse, statutory rape, polygamy, right? That was going on like within the compound within that church group. They also said that David had 140 wives.

Now the articles would also reveal that David would promote this idea to the Branch of Dividions that he was the only one allowed to have sex like at all, because he was the Messiah chosen by God. Of course, there's this passage in the book of revelations about 24 chosen children going on to be the 24 leaders of the earth after the apocalypse happens.

And so David made it his goal to have 24 children, right? Because they're going to save the earth. Great. So he would encourage his followers to not participate in anything. The regular world would consider culture, no music from the outside, no TV, no dancing, no candy, no sex, no movie, you know, nothing, except for a re-in the Bible. Cool.

Because of these beliefs, the branched avidians were considered extremists who had been brainwashed by David. This was a huge deal in the small town of Waco and only pushed David into a deeper, darker, secluded, paranoid hole, you know? Like the jig is up, and the ATF agents needed to come up with a plan of action fast because like this group is up to something, okay?

And they need to break it up. So the ATF want to break up this group fast because one, there are children on this compound, there's abuse allegedly going on. They have all these weapons, right? And polygamy, 100 and something wives, they gotta break this situation up. Like no one should have 100 and something wives

unless all of us could have 100 or something wives. You know what I'm saying? So they had to break this situation up. No one should have a hundred and something wives, unless all of us could have a hundred or something wives. You know what I'm saying? So they had to break it up. Now the compound at this point was on 77 acres of land. So Waco and the surrounding towns knew of the branched avidians, but they were like on the outskirts away from everything. So like at a site, at a mine for a lot of people, they didn't really give a shit. But that was before the Sinfo Masaya article came out. So once this article came out, there was rumors about all these wives, the children, potentially being abused. I don't know, allegedly, you should, is the right word.

So people started to throw around the word cult. Cult is out there in the works, making it's round. There's a lot of people living on this compound, and it was believed that a lot of them are being held against their will. And since it's a cult, and it's been given the name of cult, these people didn't know how to escape, how to leave, how to get out. So the ATF gets a warrant for the arrest of David Kuresh and decides that the time is now.

They have to go in, break it up for anything bad happens, or anything more happens, I should say. Now this is where the whole story gets really fricking fishy, okay? To the reasons listed on the warrant to search the compound was that they thought drugs were either being used or manufactured, and they believed David was abusing the children. Here's the thing, the ATF doesn't handle drugs or child abuse. Alcohol, tobacco, firearms, the DA handles drugs. Who handles child abuse? I forget, but not the ATF. So, the other thing is in a normal ATF raid, okay? They would not train for days at a military base beforehand, which is what the ATF did before hitting the Waco situation.

Like, it was like, why? Why they do that? Finally, if you're the ATF, what you don't do is you don't call up the press to come and record everything before launching like this full-blown siege on a group of people that you believe to be armed and unhinged. When did that give up your element of surprise? Question mark? Well, before I answer that little question of ours, we need to pause for

an ad break. So we're back. Hi. The date is February 28th, 1993. The number one movie in the box office is Groundhog Day. The number one song was I will always love you by Whitney Houston. And the number one thing happening in Waco, Texas is the ATF. They decided that today was the day they were going to make their move on the branch dividends. They had a search warrant for the branch dividend compound and they had an arrest warrant for David Kresh. They were going to get him. No matter what. So normally when the ATF would do a raid, they would go in at like five or six a.m. to like really make sure that no one was expecting anything.

You know, the element of surprise. But the day of the wake-o raid, they changed it up a bit. They decided they would go in a 10 a.m. because they were hoping they wouldn't have to shoot anybody. Thinking that everybody would be at work. What I'm getting at is like, they kind of went off plan a lot with this one. And we don't know why,

like that's why it's hella fishy. Like, it's just bizarre, the ATF. They were up to something and we don't know what they were up to. Anyways, unfortunately, the ATF, like showing up later, not to shoot anybody, it didn't really work out. Apparently, what happened was David's brother had gone into town, and while he was there,

a reporter had gone up to him and asked for directions to the branched dividend compound. And he was like, what, what do you want that for? Like, that's kind of weird. And the reporter goes, well, I want to be sure to document the ATF raid. So yeah, it turns out nobody would be at work at 10 a.m. because they all knew the rate was coming. So the Branch Divideans did what anyone would do when they found out someone is going to attack their home. They stayed inside and get ready to defend it. So when the ATF shows up on the scene, they're wearing bomb suits that look like a nash or not suit.

Yeah, it's very intense. It's intense, and it looks like they're going to war. Because remember, they think they're about to raid the home of a madman, just manufacturing all kinds of crazy and sane weapons. And the media came to, they brought hundreds of cameras to record what was about to go down. While to start, the ATF had three helicopters hovering near the backside of the house. So they were hoping that this would distract them from the truckloads of ATF agents rolling up towards the front door hidden in cattle trailers. So nobody really knows what happens next. Actually, I feel like we kind of know what happens

next because there's video footage of it, but Everybody has a different account as to what happened So the ATF and the members of the media claimed that they were shot at by the branched dividends immediately upon arrival And so they were forced to fire back self-defense However the branched dividends claimed that the ATF fired the first shots, and video evidence from the encounter shows that the ATF started firing almost immediately. Now if the Branch Davidians fired first, then it must have been right when the ATF agents pulled up because it was hard to see any evidence of that on camera. There was court testimony when everything was over, stating that when David saw the ATF approaching, he told the women and children to hide and to start praying, while the men suited up

with military-green weapons and prepared for the encounter. So I guess, you know, it doesn't matter about the first shot, even though it kind of does whatever, but very quickly, okay, Waco, Texas became a little battlefield, not even little. It was a freaking complete battlefield. Bullets flying everywhere. That was my bullets. Great. Bullets flying everywhere. ATF agents taking cover. The compound had like some water tanks there, right? Water. And the ATF destroyed those the tanks so that the buildings would flood because the water was like going into the house. The resulting gun battle lasted for at least 90 minutes, which left four

ATF agents dead and more than 20 wounded. On the other side of the compound, five branch dividends were killed and more were injured, but we don't know exactly how many. David himself said he was shot in the side, but otherwise he was okay. One member of the dividends, a 17 year old boy named Peter, was on top of a silo. Google X, I don't know what the fuck that is. The branched dividend would later claim that the ATF gunned him down from their helicopter and his body stayed up there for five days.

Actually, there was video footage of this, I watched it, it's freaking awful. Okay, so the problem here is that the ATF told David the helicopters didn't have guns. When the FBI negotiator called David later, David told him like there's no way that's true, those helicopters just destroyed a bunch of shit with bang bang guns. So the ATF was like, well, the guns aren't mounted. So technically the helicopters don't have guns. The people have guns on the helicopters.

Now two hours later, the ATF and the branch divains agreed to stop shooting on each other and the ATF pulled their people back. Okay, so the ATF is backing down, everybody's backing down, right? But they're still standoff going on. So the ATF is a gaining, gaining movement and because there's like children inside of the compound and the shooting and the weapons and all of that, the government decides to step in and sends out the FBI to now take over. pound and the shooting and the weapons and all of that, the government decides to step in and sends out the FBI to now take over. So the FBI had the goal of making sure nobody else

died and ended up bringing their crisis management team along because in their mind, this needed to be treated as a hostage situation. There might have been people there against their will, I don't know. This idea of hostages was mainly due to the way the media was covering the events. They were portraying the branch of Indians as like some kind of overly militarized cult, but some surviving members of the branch of Indians still say that like that was never actually the case.

They said that everyone was there by choice. They're just protecting their land, they're building their family, right? Now protecting their land, their building, their family. Now in their mind, they were just a religious group and the government just showed up to their compound and started blasting at them for no rhyme or reason. I mean, they couldn't knock. Do they try that? No, they just started shooting.

So once the FBI showed up, nothing really happened right away. David and the branch civilians refused to leave because they felt they hadn't broken the law, and the ATF was in the wrong for attacking them in the first place. But after you kill several federal agents, they don't just go away, you know. So it became the start of just a really long standoff with the FBI and the ATF blocking every road leading to Mount Carmel. Now that was preventing anyone from coming or going to and from the compound.

And this wasn't just to keep the branch to the ins inside. At this point, word of the chaos was all over the news. They were showing it on TV, people were watching at home with their popcorn, like what's gonna happen? There were like tons of reporters and camera people just everywhere, and there were tons of curious onlookers. They were driving from all over the freaking country to watch what was happening, and to get as close as they possibly could to mount caramel, and like what was going on. So the FBI quickly established contact with David and the other members inside the compound

phone calls, you know, they're talking on the phone. They even sent video cameras to the branched civilians inside so they could record themselves inside and make sure that everyone's okay. And they were like sending like little messages, the members of the branched civilians. They're like, hi, my name's Jebra and I'm a branch of Indian and I went to Harvard and I'm in sight right now. You can watch them, I watched them all, it was very interesting. It wasn't too long before the FBI managed to negotiate a deal with David. They wanted all the branch of Indians to leave the compound in surrender and David agreed

on one condition. The FBI needed to make a radio broadcast across the entire country of an hour-long audio recording David had made. The FBI was like, fine, sure, you've got it, and handed it over to every radio station everywhere. So it was on this tape. It was an entire hour of David speaking about his beliefs, while referring to himself as the Lamb of God, and at multiple points he promises to immediately leave the compound as soon as the tape aired. Well, as night fell in Waco, there was no movement

in the compound, and it became clear to the FBI and the ATF agents that David was not going to hold up on his end of the bargain. When he was asked later why he didn't leave, he said that God told him to wait. Over the next month, months, a month goes by. The FBI did manage to negotiate the release of 35 people, including 21 children. It was always just a few people at a time, like they would ask for food or or something and the FBI would be like, okay, give us two people and we'll give you some milk, you know, so they'd do like a little trade. And they never let everyone out of at once, but this was really the only thing that David could use to negotiate. What the branch dividends didn't know is that the FBI had inserted little microphones

inside like the milk cartons that they sent in, so they could listen in on their plans, and have time to react if they thought something dangerous was going to happen. They really went all out. Could you imagine if they put this much energy into like really stopping major crimes? Wow. Wow. We have to take a little ad break, BRB. Wow, we have to take a little at break, BRB. Hi. So David said everyone who was there wanted to be there and was allowed to leave whenever they wanted. The FBI would also record all their phone conversations with David and then play them back on a loud

speaker. The point of all of this was to show the branch to Vidions how much of a manipulator he was, hoping it would inspire some of the people inside to leave. And it did, you know, some did leave. Sometimes it seemed voluntary, and sometimes it was clear that David was just releasing them. The entire standoff with the branch to Vidians and the FBI, you know, that nonsense, it ended up lasting a whopping nonsense and ended up lasting a whopping 51 days, as longer than Lent. In total, David had about 117 conversations with FBI negotiators that lasted about 60 hours in total.

But things froze up when David felt the FBI was being disrespectful towards their property by doing things like driving tanks over graves, destroying the trees and buildings, and not keeping the promises they made over the course of the negotiations. So they were thinking like the group might do a heaven's gate situation, pull a mass suicide. This was again, because the media had been reporting

that they were planning to do something like that. Like honestly, the media was fueling the fire and they were making it way worse. They were making the public believe that these people were fine. Crazy, and they were gonna blow everybody up, they were gonna blow the whole damn wake up. It was just insane.

Like they should have been held accountable for what they were reporting. I said it, jam it. And at the end of the day, David never said that he was ever gonna do this. Never. So things got, things went from zero to 100, all because of the media.

They have so much power and they don't even realize it. Sorry, I'm just like processing and thinking at the same time. So the FBI decided to increase the heat and chose to use some questionable tactics for instance. They would just like shine super bright lights into the windows at night for hours at a time. Okay. Then they would blast recordings of like rabbit screaming, different animal noises, as well like super loud music, like Nancy Sinatra's boots are made for a walk-in, but they'd play it on repeat, right? And if that

wasn't enough, they cut off all the water, gas, and electricity to the compound. Basically, psychological warfare meant to drive people inside the compound in sane. And later when the FBI was asked like, Hey, why did you guys do this? You have a comment? The FBI declined to talk about it. They're like, wait, talk about we didn't do that. Even though it was on videotape. Just shady. During the FBI's negotiation calls, the branch of audience would actually beg the FBI to stop all of this, but they're not going to listen because they want this whole thing to be over. There are a lot of stories about how the female church members would look outside their windows and see the FBI agents moaning them, moaning them like pulling their pants down,

like they're fucking kinegar nurse is bizarre, or how the tanks would just drive around in circles knocking all of the branched-to-videans stuff down. Remember that kid Peter from earlier who got shot on top of that thing that I don't know, Silo? So the Branch Divideans had buried his body nearby, and the calls, the FBI like negotiation calls, detailed the tanks literally driving in circles over this grave. Just being super disrespectful. So in April, a month and a half into this long gas standoff,

the FBI decided they were going to take the branch civilians out by force. Okay, they're not waiting around anymore. They're wasting money. They're wasting time. We got shit to do. Apparently not. But they're acting like it. FBI agents were placed outside of the building and then big ass tanks would punch holes in the walls to pump tear gas into them. The problem with the tear gas was that they were using a CS gas, which is not at all recommended to be used on children. In some cases it's not even recommended for adults. I don't know who it's for, but it's not for nobody. Experts say that there was no gas mask inside

the compound that could fit kids, meaning they had no protection from this harmful gas. And that if they even survived being exposed to it for that long, many of them would end up in critical condition. So how do you think a heavily armed group with their own big-ass gun store would react to something like this? They're like, we've got a lot of guns. Remember, let's just use them.

And guess what they did, bitch? They sure did. The branch civilians immediately started opening fire on the FBI outside of the building. And once again, during a shooting war, this time with the FBI, because they fired back. Eventually, the gunfire died down, and it became clear that they couldn't get to David without risking the lives of everyone who was like with him. Now we don't know exactly what happened next inside of that building for six hours nobody left Mount Carmel Center and then just a few minutes after noon the building exploded in flames.

Exploded. First, it was one fire, but in seconds later there were two more explosions. Soon most of the compound was just one big ass inferno. Now, there's another part that nobody really has an answer to. Who started the freaking fire? Okay? really has an answer to who started the frickin fire, okay? If the FBI started it, then they basically committed a war crime, attacking civilians, some of them unarmed, and basically burning them alive. And children.

If the branched-to-videans started it, the media can label it a crazy cult that has gone off the deep end and like, they just killed themselves. They pulled it to heaven's gate, you know. But here's what we do know. There's evidence that the fire started right as one of the tanks were inserting more tear gas into the building. And some of the branched civilians who survive say that the C.S. tear gas is flammable when it first comes out of the canister and that's when the fire started. They say that the fire ignited quickly and traveled through comes out of the canister and that's when the fire started. They say that the fire ignited quickly and traveled through the halls of the building,

lighting everything in its path. But of course, the government has to cover their ass and chemical experts came in and they're like, well the CS gas is actually flame resistant and it wouldn't be able to start a fire. There's just no way. Plus remember how they had microphones in the milk cartons, they sent in? Well, in those recordings, they can hear branched dividends talking about lighting the fire and the last recording they picked up was someone saying, keep those fires going. Some of the FBI agents said they heard more gunfire

at this time, but more likely it was just exploding ammunition from the fire. It's just a lot of he said, she said, okay, that could have really been avoided by just maybe going up to the front door and knocking. I just solved everything. I should be in charge. Hey, just go knock on their door

and all this could have been prevented. Because it was a matter, no matter who started the fire, the aftermath was awful. It was devastating. In the end, nine people were able to escape, but more than 75 people remained inside the building. Everyone who was inside the building died in the fire. Men, women, children, oh it was awful. Later reports would say that over 80 were inside, but the fire was so bad that it was hard to count the exact loss of life. Among the dead was David Kuresh himself, the Lamb of God,

and also 25 of those people who died were children. Another thing that was pretty interesting about this was when they did an autopsy of the bodies after the fire. At least 19 of the people who died were killed by gunshot wounds from point blank range. One of the children had been stabbed to death the poor thing. He was singled out for some reason. David just went off, who was like, and David, who was the first to die, and he was shot in the exact center of his forehead.

Now, we don't know what happened. Did he kill himself? Did the group kill the people inside? Was that from other, we don't know. Well, after everything went down, 11 branch dividends were criminally charged for their actions during the siege. Between all 11 of them, two of them were released, and the other nine would each get prison time between five to 40 years depending on the severity of their charges. But that all relates to criminal charges for the people inside the compound. What about the government agencies involved in the horrific events back in 1993? Should they be held accountable? I mean, what the fuck were they doing? People on questions,

they want answers. Like, who started the damn fire? Did all those people need to die? Why did they bring tanks and use tear gas on, on like unarmed women and children? Was there a port that there was children abuse accurate or was a based on just rumors within the ATF? And why was the ATF serving a warrant for child abuse and drug charges when they don't even handle that shit? And most importantly, who shot first? Were the brash to variance preparing for a pokedlyptic battle? Or were they simply defending themselves? I was a lot of questions, I asked. I obviously have a lot of questions and no answers. The pressure from the public to investigate the events of Wago led to a congressional hearing

involving the politicians and federal agents who authorized the attack, as well as the surviving members of the branch of Indians. Now the problem was less than a month after the fire that ended it all. Texas State Authorities bulldozed a site making additional forensic evidence impossible to gather. Whatever information they already uncovered was all that they would be able to use

like to piece together what had happened. They were trying to clear off all their evidence, hide everything that they fucked up and did wrong. Little bitches. All these hearings broadcasted live to the world. We were able to hear from both sides of this crisis. I was such a joke. This is where many of the details I talked about

throughout this story came to light because at the time the only truth that was available was what the press was saying. And then we tell you the press was not telling the truth. They were just fucking assholes. Oh wait, they still are. Yeah, and no one holds some accountable for the lies that they spew. It's very bizarre, ain't it? That's another conversation that we should have another day. Everyone viewed the branch of audience as just another crazy ass cult, okay?

But they were actually like smart, kind, and in many ways just normal-ass people who wanted to be a part of this religious group These hearings showed that the ATF and FBI overstepped in more ways than one Although through scientific testimonies and the reviewing of hours of video and audio recordings Congress determined that there was no criminal conspiracy by any member of the FBI or ATF to kill the branch Jewelryans. So nobody was charged or punished for it. Pause because what the fuck? Yeah. To know and ever holds the FBI or the government accountable? How come? What's that about?

I should mention that years later, in 1999, a whistleblower pointed out that even though the FBI swore they didn't use any type of fire-starting materials on the compound, pyro-technics were found in an evidence locker. In other words, they lied about using fire starting materials during the siege and kept it from congressional hearing. Well, there was a special committee that formed to investigate the new evidence. They're always fucking investigating and they never find shit. What?

Why don't they like set up us the people to investigate? I bet you we would find some shit. Huh. Manio, going, I can investigate. I'm sure I'd come across some shit. Okay. Anyways, so a new a new committee starts and they're investigating the new evidence and they found that it was still clear that the fire was not started by the FBI agents based on where the fires were when the pyro-technic devices were used. But how they know they bulldozed the land and stuff, how they know what the fuck they're talking about.

They're just so exhausting. But on the other hand, left hand, was there a way to approach the group like the dividends that were resulting like no deaths? Maybe the initial deaths could have been avoided when the ATF came in if they had cooled off a little bit, you know, but they were locked down for 51 days and many people left the compound unscathed. If they weren't to avoid 80 deaths, they could have left the compound many times. But they believed that Gartolms to stay so they couldn't. There's no way

they deserve those deaths, but David had a responsibility to protect his people too, and he chose to take a stand and it went the wrong way in the end. To this day, there is no definitive conclusion as to who the fault lies with. It's very clear as the government's responsibility and all of this could have been avoided. All of this, okay? By bringing the doorbell or by knocking on the door, he little bitches. Anyways, but we'll never know what the exact motivations were for like David Kresh and for the government because David is dead RIP and the government just loves their little secrets. But what we do know is this, a government with a lot of military power behind it

descended on a small Texas town, guns blazing, and created a global fire storm that is still debated to this day. Yeah, because you can ask tons of people and some people are like, oh, crazy cult, crazy cult, and then other people are like, oh no, government, government's to blame. It's just like a lot of back and forth. Okay, so you know, for those of you out there, the Oklahoma City bombing guy, well, I guess he was doing it as revenge to the government for what happened in Waco, which I didn't

know that either. Like, everything so interconnected. Anyways, what I'm getting at is in my personal humble opinion and remind you, I'm a nobody on a couch drinking alcohol because it's almost my birthday. I believe that the government was 100% at fault and they should have held some kind of accountability for this. They killed a lot of innocent people. For what? What was achieved? Something like a national holiday or anything like what would we get out of it? And did your tax dollars pay for that? Interesting. Can we get a refund?

Do we get a refund? A tax deduction? Something. I mean, what do we get when shit goes wrong? For Christ's sakes. Well, everyone, thank you so much for learning with me today about Waco. Did we learn anything new? What about you, Joan?

Joan, you dirty little bitch. She's so silly. I can't tell you what she said. I was very inappropriate. Anyways, thank you so much for hanging out with me today. Remember, don't be afraid to ask questions, you know, to get the whole story about something. Plus like, it's being

curious isn't a bad thing, okay? Right. Now, I'd love to hear your reactions to the story, so make sure to use the hashtag dark history over on social media so I can follow along and see what you're saying. Anyways, join me over on my YouTube where you can watch these episodes on Thursday, after the podcast, airs, and also it's Thanksgiving so happy Thanksgiving. And also don't forget to check out Murder Mystery Makeup which drops on Mondays. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. You make good choices. It's my birthday and I'll be talking to you next week. Bye! Dark History is an audio boom original. This podcast is executive produced by me, Bailey Serian, Kim Jacobs, Dunia McNally from Three Arts, Justin Cummins, and Claire Turner from Willhouse DNA,

produced by Lexi Kiven, Dariel Kresson, and Spencer Strassmore. Research provided by Thomas Mezzar Smith, writers, Jed Bookout, Michael Obersbers, Joey Skluzzo, and me, Bailey Sarian. And also, if you didn't know, I'm your host, Bailey Sarian. It's my birthday, so wish me a happy birthday, Goddammit. Say bye, Joan. You're such a bitch. She's so rude. Bye!

She's...my God. Thank you.