Dark History - 90: LOST & FOUND: New York’s secret mass grave site | Dark History with Bailey Sarian

Episode Date: June 7, 2023

Welcome to the Dark History podcast. Today we’re talking about a place that NYC has tried to erase from its maps: Hart Island. Since the day it was discovered, it has been used as a prison, a war training camp, and even an insane asylum. Today, millions of dead bodies are kept on the island- right next to New Yorkers who don’t even know it exists. So sit back, relax, and find out what other secrets this place is hiding. Episode Advertisers Include: ShipStation, Earthbreeze, Apostrophe, and LiquidIV. Learn more during the podcast about special offers!

What if I told you there's a place in New York City that was once a prison, an insane asylum, and a burial ground that holds a million bodies? Even more shocking, most New Yorkers who live right next to it don't even know it's there. To this day, it doesn't even show up on city transportation maps. Why is this island's history so mysterious? I mean, who's behind it? And what secrets is it hiding? Let's unravel the mystery of heart, island. America's most forgotten island. [♪ INTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Hi friends, I hope you're having a wonderful day today.

My name is Bailey Sarian and I like to welcome you you to my study and to my podcast, Dark History. This is a chance to tell the story like it is and to share the history of stuff we would never think about. So sit back, relax, and let's talk about that hot, juicy history, goss. So I saw like you guys suggest this topic in my comments over and over again, and when I finally dug into it, ugh, I was blown away. Today we're talking about an island located in New York between the Bronx

and Queens. This island was used as a prison, a mass burial ground, and even an insane asylum. I mean, if it's creepy, it's definitely happened here. Which is why the island's history, just like most of its visitors, has been buried. To this day, it doesn't show up on any metro maps, even though other islands with no subway access are clearly visible. So it's like, why has this place so mysterious, you know? Well, I had to dig in and get some answers, of course. Now, the British, you know, they discovered, wink, wink, this island in 1775 and noticed, hey, it kind of looks like a heart, doesn't it? Yeah, I mean, yeah, of course, they were already indigenous people living there,

but whatever, it was theirs now. And they were going to call it heart island, because it was shaped like a heart. Heart Island is pretty small, only about a mile long and a third of a mile wide, so there wasn't really much anyone wanted to do with it up until the Civil War. The country's first black soldiers used heart island as a training ground. They were called the Heart Island Regiment. And by the end of the war, over 50,000 men were trained

at heart island. So right off the bat, you could say this island, it was making history. But that wasn't all the island was used for. The Union needed somewhere to keep the enemy soldiers that they had captured and they figured where better than a literal island where no one could escape. Within three weeks of its opening, there were around 3,400 prisoners crammed into this little island, and some historians say it came pretty damn close to feeling like

a concentration camp. Eventually the war ends. Many years pass, and the POW prison is abandoned. But hey, it's still a perfectly good building, you know? So in the late 1800s, I guess there was like a ton of over crowding happening at psychiatric hospitals. I guess they had too many like female patients. Someone up top was like, hey, what about that island no one's using? That island's available?

Well, the hospitals like this idea, and they decide to just go full horror movie and open up a woman's only lunatic asylum. Now, I'm not calling it this, that's what they called it. And they did this on Hart Island in 1885. Blackwell, Insane asylum, and Bellevue Hospital in New York were especially in need of a place to send the patients they didn't have space for. But a shocker, no hospitals really wanted to open their doors and let in quote, quote, unquote, insane people. Plus, no one wanted a new asylum opening up in their neighborhood. So this lunatic asylum was known for taking only the hottest chronic cases, I guess. Chronic as an incurable. Essentially, once you were getting to heart island,

you pretty much weren't leaving. People with conditions like schizophrenia and manic depression would be sent there. I mean, this was before lobotomy, so people just had to suffer and live with it. But remember how I said it was only for women? Well, back in the day, they really didn't have a lot of terminology for mental issues, but all they knew was that if you were a man and you were a bit, you know, quote, touched in the head, you were labeled insane. And if you were a woman, you were a lunatic. So in other words, lunatics were ladies, men are insane. So if you

were violent or deemed incurable, aka you slapped the nightmares one too many times and the hospital was tired of dealing with you, you could get relocated to Har Island. So it's like congratulations Betsy, you made it. When doctors didn't know how to treat something, the easiest thing for them to do was to send you away to an asylum usually for a lifelong treatment or Lord knows what. But in those days, treatment was being locked in a padded cell, being pumped with different drugs,

until you didn't even know who you were or which way was up. And if you refused to take them or maybe even act it out, you'd be forced into a straight jacket or shackles, and they would get that pill down your throat like no matter what the cost got damn it. So neither to say things were not great.

Heart Island had pretty much become New York's go-to place for sending anyone that is, quote unquote, undesirable of society, just a plain out of sight, out of mind, little situation. In the end, Hart Island reported no cures or success stories within their asylums. Essentially, none was getting better and people died. I'm not really sure what their end goal was, but it didn't last long because the asylum closed in 1895. The building itself was

repurposed as a rehab in the 50s and then became part of a men's prison before part of it collapsed. But of course that's not the end for her island, Nene. In fact, it's really only the beginning. If you ask a new New Yorker if they've heard about her island and they happen to know it exists, they'll probably know it as the place where they bury people with no family and no money and they'd be right. That's because back in the late 1800s, the state of New York started to use hard island

as a dumping ground for unclaimed bodies. Thousands of them. Today, let me tell you, I'm excited to partner with Ship Station. Oh, yeah. I mean, there are just some things in life I wish I could just automate. Oh yeah, like doing my laundry, changing my sheets,

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And sign up for your free 60 day trial. That's shipstation.com code darkhistory. Thank you ship station. Now let's get back to our story. In the mid 1800s, New York was going through it. A disease called tuberculosis was ripping through the city and it killed around 2500 people. I mean, the city was freaking out.

Everyone was so scared, okay? They all thought they were gonna catch it. So they decided to put all the bodies they thought could be infectious together. So no one would get it. But they needed somewhere to put these bodies away from everyone. And then of course, someone at the top,

that same guy was like, Hey, what about that island? Nobody seems to be using that island. The island's still available. So, this is where Heart Island goes through another little rebrand as a diseased burial ground. And that all started with a 24 year old woman named Luisa Van Sleik.

One day, Luisa wasn't feeling all that well, almost like she was getting some kind of flu. Now going to the doctors would be ideal for most, but Luisa was a young immigrant who unfortunately had no family around and no money. Well, as the days pass, Luisa's feeling worse and worse. She's having trouble breathing. She's weak and desperate for medical treatment.

So she ends up at a New York hospital where she was then diagnosed with TB. Sadly for Luisa, no amount of care could help her at this time, and she died. But because she had no family in the States, sadly no one showed up to claim her body. Now, the hospital realizes that they have two problems on their hands.

One, they're freaked out that this, you know, quote unquote, diseased body could potentially spread disease to other people and to make matters worse. No one is going to commentate her body. So again, they're like, you know, what are we going to do? I mean, they need to get Luis's body out of their fast before it could potentially infect others.

This is when New York is faced with a real moral dilemma. Where do all the bodies go, you know? So with all these new tuberculosis cases, New York just goes for it and admits to themselves, look, Heart Island is the place for unwanted bodies from here on out. They got to work setting aside 45 acres of land at the northern end of Heart Island for a mass grave site of diseased people. On April 20th, 1869, Luisa Van Slags' body was placed in a wooden coffin, loaded onto

a ferry, and taken to be buried on Hart Island. Pretty soon more unclaimed tuberculosis victims like Luisa just went into big burial trenches out of not only fear, but also because no one knew where else to put them. These trenches were about the size of a like a tennis court. Trenches could sometimes have 150 coffins stacked up, three coffins deep and like 50 coffins wide. There was no respect, not even in death. But honestly the city saw this as something that was just working so they kept sending tuberculosis victims there. And they were like, hey, we have a lot of other bodies that we don't have a space for.

So they started burying women who died in that lunatic asylum there, on-house people who died on the streets of New York City, men from local prisons, and even still-born babies. And the bodies just kept, kept on coming. Because of all that, this one-mile island became a stain on New York. I mean, people really just want to forget all about it. There were tabloids that called it the haunted island, but there was one nickname many would remember Heart Island by the resting place of last resort. By the early 1900s,

Heart Island had gone through a bunch of facelifts, civil war camps, asylum, mass graves. One specific man looked at Heart Island and saw an opportunity, an opportunity to build an amusement park. Hey, what is an island with a bunch of dead bodies need? A tilt-o-wall. Yeah, they'll give some life to the island.

Nearby, just a hop-skip and jump away, there was a magical place called Coney Island. Now, I've never been, but I hear it like it has an iconic beachfront boardwalk with shops, food stands, and America's first roller coaster. Now, when it first opened in the 1920s, people just loved it. But only, you know, certain people were allowed in. White people. At this time, black people could fight for our country in the war,

but they couldn't go to Coney Island and like eat a hot dog. America. A man named Solomon Riley decides he's gonna give black New Yorkers their own Coney Island. Now Riley was a hardworking entrepreneur from the Caribbean. He made it his mission to give Black Americans opportunities everyone else seemed to have. Like for one, he bought up property in Harlem, which was a mainly white neighborhood at the time, and became the first person to rent his properties to Black Americans in the area. Something most land lurches refused to do. Riley made millions off his brilliant real estate investments, earning him the nickname Millionaire Riley. So Riley purchases four acres of land on Hart Island and gets to building things like a dance hall

and a 200-foot boardwalk. He was able to complete all of this by the summer of 1924, and the project gained attention in the papers almost immediately. I mean, people were buzzing about the new amusement park. Millionaire Riley was all set to open his park on July 4th, 1925 on Har Island. But unfortunately, it got the attention of some not very supportive people in the city, specifically the Department of Welfare. Two weeks before the park was set to open, the New York City Council stepped in. Remember how I mentioned that one building on the island became a prison? Well, the city said this would pose a major threat to Riley's amusement park. Their reasoning was that this park was too close to the prison, and this prison, just

like the Asylum, was used specifically to contain the quote, most dangerous criminals in the state. The city was worried that prisoners would escape and, I don't know, like blend in with the crowds at Riley's park and even steal a boat or a ferry to escape. So therefore, you can't open your little park, Riley, saw me. So Riley took the city of New York to court. Ultimately, the court ruled in the favor of Riley. I mean, a judge said that because his

buildings improved the island, the city had to pay Riley $144,000. And today's money, he made a profit of about $1.8 million. Heart Island has always seemed to be going through some kind of identity crisis, but one thing that has always stayed the same with hard island, it's always been a mass grave site. More and more bodies kept being sent over, including one whose story ended up shining a big light on the burial problems on the island. Today I'm happy to partner with Earth Breeze! Shhh! That's a breeze noise, thank you. Earth Breeze is revolutionizing how we think

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started. That's earthbreeze.com slash dark history for 40% off. EarthBreeze.com slash dark history. The year is 1978. New York is in the middle of a wicked blizzard. Visibility is next to nothing in the cold air stings faces all over the city. But inside Manhattan's Beth Israel hospital Elaine Joseph was in labor. Elaine was an energetic, no-nonsense woman who grew up in Manhattan's housing projects. After that, she reached the rank of Lieutenant Commander in the Navy and then became a nurse. But on that snowy night in 1978, Elaine was giving birth. Her baby girl, who she named Tamika, came into this world prematurely with a heart defect. After her baby was born, Elaine was told to just go home and recover.

Meanwhile, Tamika was rushed to another hospital for emergency heart surgery. But after the doctor instead all they could, baby Tamika passed away. Because of how brutal this snow storm was, all forms of transportation had to come to a stop. So Elaine was stuck at home alone, grieving the death of her baby. She ended up trying to call the hospital, just trying to figure out how she could claim to me because of her body and just give her baby a proper burial. But the hospital took their sweet time and didn't even bother to respond for four whole days.

And when they did respond, they pretty much said like, oh, you signed your consent for the baby to be buried at the city cemetery. Now when in Lane here, she was confused, pissed, angry, but most of all devastated by this major loss, and on top of that, she was getting no answers. Elaine said she never would have signed anything like that, but the hospital said, well, that's too late. Baby Tumiko has already been buried. Sorry.

Elaine looked at the death certificate and sure as shit, it said city cemetery. But a lane had like no idea where city cemetery was. So she contacted all sorts of city agencies. She checked burial services and the yellow pages. And she even went to the city archives to find the exact place her baby was taken. But nothing helped.

Baby Tameca's burial records had just completely disappeared. Like banish, just into thin air. It would be a long time before a lane would be able to get any type of closure. Not long after a lane went through all of this heartbreak, the city experienced another major epidemic. In 1981, AIDS hit New York City City and it was a very similar story. Now we dedicated an entire episode to the AIDS epidemic in season one. So if you want

more in-depth information, definitely highly recommend you go give that a listen. But the height of the AIDS epidemic was between 1981 to 1990, and New York was a city most affected by HIV, specifically the LGBTQ plus communities. And when researchers pinpointed that the virus seemed to be spreading the quickest in communities of gay men, they were like pushed out from society. The gay community, which had already been experiencing judgment, abuse, and just in general being treated poorly, were now fighting a deadly virus, essentially, on their own.

And other New Yorkers were so scared of them, and catching whatever they had, because there was really no understanding of what AIDS was. So when people died of AIDS, even the coroners, and morticians didn't want to touch them, and worse, many didn't even want people who had died of AIDS to be buried in a traditional cemetery

with their family because of this stigma. So they turned to the one place they knew they could bury people no matter what. Heart Island. The first documented burial on Heart Island of people who died of complications from AIDS happened in 1985. of people who died of complications from AIDS happened in 1985. Normally, there would be a shallow grave where more than 100 adults would be buried, but this was not the case for those who died of AIDS. They were buried at the furthest possible point in the island, away and quarantined from all the other bodies. I guess they were concerned the bodies would still somehow be contagious. So they were buried in individual graves 14 feet deep in lead-lined coffins. As the years went on and more became known about

AIDS, the city started bearing people who died of AIDS-related complications with everyone else in those mass graves. And because of that, Hart Island became known as, quote, perhaps, the single largest burial ground in the country for people with AIDS. Now, you'd hope this would be the end of Heart Island, but this is dark history. And on top of that, guess who came showing up at our door a brand new epidemic.

So this happened pretty recently and affected millions of us. I'm talking about the COVID-19 pandemic. So we know that when COVID first hit people were dying at really high rates. And one of the first places New York had to turn to to bury their dead was Heart Island. Just like with the AIDS epidemic, no one really knew what the hell was going on. So when COVID started spreading in New York City, people were dying at a rate five times faster than normal. I guess normally when someone dies, their family has up to like 30 days to claim their body. This policy just couldn't hold up during COVID because the city was literally like running out of

places to hold them. You got so out of hand that the same department that handles natural disasters like hurricanes and tornadoes had to send hospitals these huge refrigerated morgue trucks to store all the bodies they had coming their way. So the city went back to their old car trick. What do we do with a lot of unclaimed bodies? Well, we bury them all together. Today's episode and all of my summer plans is sponsored by a posh-tra-fi. People watching for a while, you know I love a post-refeat.

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A big thank you to aposherfee for sponsoring today's episode. And now let's get back to today's story. The department that overseas Heart Island said burials increased from 25 a week to 24 every single day. This was because sadly thousands of people died without having a family member to identify them. I mean, even if you could identify the body,

funerals are expensive. And many New Yorkers couldn't even afford to bury their loved ones, let alone give them a nice funeral, and that only got worse during COVID. So, they'd be shipped off to get their heart island treatment. Mass burial. Some people didn't have a choice, and now with COVID, hearts' body count just kept going up. I mean, New York is a major city, and people are going to die in their lives. So the city has to do something with all the bodies. I mean they couldn't just like leave them in the streets, but when they do

something about it, people have questions. So it's like damned if they do, damned if they don't. And they really thought that this was their best solution. Now if you're like me you're wondering, who the hell is bearing these bodies? No? Just me? Okay fine. Well I wanted to know. And I found the answer for you. Nobody lives on Har Island. It's like again kind of like way out of the way. So I thought maybe Har Island had a list of employees who came in and handled the bodies and the burials and all that, but no. What I found was just... Derby. The people who bury all these bodies are prisoners from a little place known as Riker's Island.

And prisons have been supplying cheap, basically free, labor to heart island for over 150 years. I know clue about that. Now let me tell you about Riker's Island, another island, right? It's a prison that's known for being overcrowded, brutal, and a place that's literally so bad they're in the process of shutting it down.

I mean, it's been on blast in the media more times than anyone can count, because prisoners often go without food or any medical attention. And it also has some shady practices when it comes to giving prisoners jobs. Jobs like what we're talking about right now, burying bodies on Har Island. Now this came to the attention of the median 2020 when New York was getting searches of unclaimed COVID bodies and had no place to put them. Once the word got out that they were being shipped to Hart Island, pretty soon pictures and videos started to surface.

And here's what the footage showed. Riker's Island inmates were in head-to-toe hazmat suits, with masks having to move coffins that were like hundreds of pounds, and they would then have to stack these heavy coffins in those like dirt trenches and then cover them up. At first, they had to use their hands to move the coffins and shovels to dig the graves. I mean, it wasn't an easier quick process, but then the city eventually sent machinery like cranes to help with the burials. But still, on top of that, if there was bad weather, they would just have to deal with it and keep on digging the graves. And an interview with the New Yorker, one former inmate named Saxon Palmer, described working conditions in these trenches during the winter months.

Men would be in those trenches just waiting to stack heavy caskets being handed to them. And when the rain started, it would just like us fill the trenches with sludge and rain water and become one big mud pit. The worst part, standard caskets used in these hard island burials were not exactly waterproof. So the water would seep into the caskets and then out onto the prisoners. Saxon described the situation saying, quote, you're basically taking a bath, end quote, in dead body water. Ugh, that's so nasty.

Even though this was a mandated prison job, some prisoners didn't want the psychological trauma, but that wasn't exactly an option. Now in the past, if prisoners refused to do these brutal jobs or asked to be taken off the job once they started, it was seen as them disobeying a direct order. Some would even be punished with solitary confinement, but even that didn't seem as bad. Apparently they're not as strict about the rule now, but either way, Riker's Island in May stopped bearing the dead on Har Island in 2020, and this was all thanks to one tenacious person who has been blowing the whistle on Har Island for years. In 1998, a woman named Melinda Hunt published a book of photographs featuring burials on Har Island. Now, visiting the island just to take photos was not something typically like people were

even allowed to do. In fact, most weren't even allowed to go at all. I mean, even if you were trying to reclaim a family member's body. That's because to get access, you needed permission from the Department of Corrections, which oversees all New York City prisons. So it makes sense when Melinda Hunt is quoted as saying, quote, lawyers tell me it's harder to get onto Heart Island

than a maximum security prison." And, quote, and even when a mother was able to arrange a trip to go visit the grave of her baby, she got to the dock on Heart Island, but no one from the corrections department could point her in the right direction. So pretty much right after Melinda published the book, people started reaching out to Melinda,

asking her to help them get visitation rights. Melinda decided there should be a resource to help people figure out where their loved ones are buried, so they can go visit them. And that's when she founded the Heart Island project. And in 2009, Elaine, remember the woman with the missing baby who died? When she comes across the name Heart Island Project, and here is about the mysterious burials that happened there.

It was like a light bulb went off. I mean, holy crap. City cemetery must be Heart Island. Thank you, Liquid Ivy, for keeping my entire office hydrated and for sponsoring this episode. So you know how you're supposed to drink eight glasses of water a day, LOL, right? Why is it so hard?

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Real people, real flavor, real hydrating. Grab your liquid IV in bulk nationwide at Costco. Or you can get 20% off when you go to liquid IV.com and use code dark history at checkout. Am I allowed you to use that code because I ran out of the concord grade. Don't come from me. I'm going to use it. That's 20% off anything when you shop better hydration today using promo code dark history at liquidiv.com. Get concord grape. I'm not pressuring you. I am just highly recommending it. You're welcome. Oh, thank you, Liquid Ivy, for partnering with me on today's episode. And now let's get back to today's story. After 31 years of unresolved grief, Elaine finally knows where her baby girl,

Tamika, is buried. Now Elaine, she just wanted to go like lay some flowers on her baby's grave, which should have been easy, but she was told that she was not allowed to go. Eventually, in 2011, they allowed her onto the island for something called a closure visit. Wow, thanks. You know. But they only would let her like go into a dirty gazebo that was right next to the water, but that was it. She could only stay in that one location. Back in 1872, a grid system was created for individual burial plots,

and each plot was numbered and marked with wood, sometimes a religious cross, or concrete, and that grid system is still in use today. She turned to the guards to ask for information about her daughter's burial site, but they didn't help her. I don't know if they just genuinely didn't know anything. Either way, Elaine wasn't getting the closure she actually needed, and wanted, and deserved, and to add insult to injury, a piece of the damn gazebo fell on Elaine's head while she was there. Yeah. It wasn't until 2014 that Elaine was able to go visit her baby's gravesite directly. This story is heart-wrenching and awful and it gets even worse because Baby Taneca wasn't the only one. There are literally about 1 million bodies buried on Heart Island.

And babies and infants, they make up between 300 to 500,000 of them. So it's very likely this story happened to tens of thousands of other families and the gross mishandling of all of this just went to show how the city of New York felt about its own people. But thanks to fucking Melinda, the ugly truth was finally exposed. Now, the pressure was on New York

to actually do something about it. By 2021, New York State knows they've got to do some damage control to smooth all this over. They're like, yeah, we've done the mass burial thing a few too many times, but how about we try something else? Basically, there was a ton of bad press circulating after a mollinda exposed the truth of our island. New Yorkers weren't laying this go, and they were furious at the city, at the treatment of their dead, and of the prisoners forced to do back breaking labor to literally cover it all up.

All of it. So in 2021, the city announced that Hart Island would be opening up to the public, and they were getting a $70 million makeover. Like, oh my god, great. So they're finally going to be like building a memorial site to honor the dad. They're finally gonna acknowledge like the truth about this island. They're finally gonna help the people visit their loved ones. Maybe they're gonna create an information center

to I don't know, learn about the long history of this island. Maybe a memorial for all the women wrongfully imprisoned for being lunatics. Why don't that one? Oh, that's going to be so great. I can't wait for them to do that. But we're on Dark History. Got damn it. Okay, and that's not the plan at all. New York, they're like, okay, those $70 million are going towards tearing everything down. All the history. Once again, just bearing the truth.

The plan is to bring in tourism and treat the island like a big cemetery open for visitors like wood lawn in the Bronx or Arlington National Cemetery. And I'm sure you're gonna have to pay for the ferry right over there and for park admission. There might be a little gift shop. I wouldn't be surprised. But they also have plans for nature classes in hiking. Yeah, I was like, are you stupid? I actually think before they tear any bellings down or do anything, they really need to take care of the people who are already buried there. And like make it easier for their families to visit them to even know that that's where they ended up. The city needs to address not just the fact that there aren't literally a million

bodies buried there, but people with names, people who deserve to be acknowledged. You know, I mean, hello. Can we do this before we allow people just to hike all over their graves? Now, I may be jumping ahead here, but come on. It feels like the city could start by giving them plaques with their names, or maybe just reuniting families with their loved ones. On the island, you know? Until then, if you want to learn more about who is buried on Har Island, you can check out

Melinda's website, heart-align.net, h-a-r-t-i-l-n-t-dot-net. It also has this interactive map of the island where you can zoom in on burial plots. Melinda describes it as quote, Facebook for the dead. We give people a blank slate to remember their family members to tell their story, end quote. So yeah, go Melinda. Go Melinda, why don't they fund her project?

The website itself is a step forward, but there's more to do. Now New York City wants Hart Island to become a public cemetery everyone can visit, but there are still no headstones, only white posts or stone markers with numbers on them that represent body counts. Not only that, but according to the New York Times, there are like no public bathrooms, no electricity or shelter from New York's kind of like crazy weather. So yeah, I don't know, lots of work to do,

to make it a welcoming space. And most importantly, just really a place that honors its dead and acknowledges what's happened, you know? The cemetery Chaplain, who currently works on Heart Island, recently said it best himself. He said, Heart Island, quote, reflects the lives of people who live on the margins. The homeless, the sickly, the neglected,

the forgotten and overworked. When I was researching Heart Island, something that really caught my attention was this 30-foot high monument in the center of the burial sites. In the 1940s, prison inmates offered to build monument in honor of the people on the island so they wouldn't be forgotten.

A monument to the unbefrended dead. On one side there's a simple engraved cross, on the other the word peace. And that monument still stands today. This is something that many people have wanted to bring to heart island in its dark past. Dignity and peace, just like the monument says. So many bad things have happened there, but there are still people who want to go visit their loved ones. There's so much mystery and gatekeeping when it comes to the island that for many years it felt impossible. And sure, New York City said they're gonna fix it, but it's hard to just believe them, right? After what they did for like 150 years, that's a long time. 150 years and yours gonna change like that.

Okay, so actions, you know, they always speak louder than words to New York. I'll believe it when I see it. Okay. Well, everyone, thank you for learning with me today. Remember, don't be afraid to ask questions, you know, to get the whole story because you deserve that. I love to hear your guys' reactions to today's story, so make

sure to use the hashtag dark history over on social media so I can follow along. Also, you can join me over on my YouTube where you can watch these episodes on Thursday after the podcast errors, and while you're there, you can also catch my murder mystery and makeup. I hope you have a really great rest of your day. You make good choices, and I'll be talking to you next week. Goodbye! Dark History is an audio boom original. This podcast is executive produced by Bailey Sarian High, Junia McNuley from Three Arts, Kevin Grush, and Matt Nlo from Maiden Network.

A big thank you to our writers, Joie Scavo, Kidi Burris, Alison Floboz, and me, Bailey Surion, writer's assistant, Casey Colton, production lead Brian Jaggers. Research provided by the dark history researcher team, special thank you to our expert Sally Rodan, and I'm your host, Bailey Sarian.