Dateline NBC - A mother's mind before killings. Audio recording of missing mom. Plus, rap lyrics as evidence.

Episode Date: August 13, 2026

In Massachusetts, young mom Lindsay Clancy is on trial for allegedly murdering her three children. Her psychiatrist testifies about her mental state before killings. In California, Tyler McCain is accused of killing his wife, Nikki, who went missing in 2024 after filing a domestic violence report against him. In Dateline Round Up, former OnlyFans model Courtney Clenney pleads guilty to stabbing boyfriend. Update in the case of Luigi Mangione, alleged killer of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Plus, prosecutors using rap lyrics and memoirs as evidence in court.    This episode discusses suicide. If you or someone you know is in crisis, call the Suicide & Crisis Lifeline at 988 or visit 988lifeline.org for more resources.   And if you need resources on domestic violence call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 800-799-7233. Or visit thehotline.org    Listen to season 5 of the Dateline: Missing in America podcast: https://swap.fm/l/miafdlw     Find out more about the cases covered each week here: www.datelinetruecrimeweekly.com. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

We can get gone. It's the start of another workday for the Dateline team. There's a video, you know, false confessions, coercive interrogation tactics. Our producers are catching up on breaking crime news. Is it a family saying it's a murder? There were no other suspects or anything, right? Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Blaine Alexander.

It's August 13th and here's what's on our docket. In Northern California, prosecutors prepare to use a recording of a missing mom against the man they say killed her. You could hear Nikki just describing the brutality of the abuse and just how terrified she was. In Dateline Roundup, former only fans model, Courtney Clennie, takes a plea for killing her boyfriend. And Luigi Mangione, the man accused of gunning down United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson, is back in court, possibly for the last time before his state trial. Both the defense and prosecution have strong takes on how open the trial should be.

Plus, should prosecutors be allowed to use song lyrics or memoirs as evidence? NBC News legal analyst Danny Savalos isn't convinced. How do we know what is a nexus between violent lyrics and a crime of violence? But before all of that, we're off to a Boston suburb where it's week three in the trial of a former labor and delivery nurse accused of murdering her own children. And just a warning that some of what we'll be discussing is quite upsetting and includes mention of suicide. For weeks, prosecutors have been laying out their case against Lindsay Clancy, the Massachusetts mom they believe intentionally killed her three young children, Cora, Callan,

and Dawson on January 24, 2023. Lindsay doesn't deny killing them, but says she cannot be held criminally responsible. She says she was suffering from undiagnosed postpartum psychosis at the time that she was overmedicated and not in her right mind. Lindsay's ex-husband Patrick, who was standing by her, has testified about watching Lindsay's struggle with her mental health, but this week jurors got to hear from the doctors who treated her. Chief among them, Dr. Jennifer Tufts, the psychiatrist who saw Lindsay just the day before her children's deaths. Here now to tell us what Dr. Tufts had to say and why he thinks it led to one of the most

contentious moments in court so far is Nate Eaton of East Idaho News and host of the podcast, Courtroom Insider. Nate, thank you so much for being here with us today. Hi, Blaine. Thanks for having me. You know, I mean, the first thing I have to ask you, Nate, is that this is a case that has clearly grabbed the country's attention. I mean, we're talking about a trial in Massachusetts. You've been covering it all the way from Idaho. Just tell me what do you think it is about this case that has resonated with so many people? I think that mental illness affects so many people. And you have a mother who says she was dealing with postpartum anxiety, depression. That is an issue that people relate to. She was a very loving mother by all accounts, according to the testimony. And you see her in the courtroom every day sitting in her wheelchair because she was paralyzed. After she threw herself out of that second story window, a lot of people feel sorry for her. A lot of people say she should be held responsible. Most cases, you have a feeling that the defendant, may be found guilty or not guilty, this is a case that I don't know, I don't think anyone knows how this trial is going to end.

So let's talk about Dr. Jennifer Tufts. She first met Lindsay Clancy back in September of 2022. This is just a few months before the children were killed in January of 2023. What makes her stand out here as a witness in this case? Well, she is a psychiatrist who met Lindsay 14 times actually leading up until the children's death. And if there's anyone who could describe kind of a through line for her care over the months leading up to this tragedy, it would be Dr. Tufts. So when the prosecution brought her up, they first asked Dr. Tufts about when she had her first appointment with Lindsay. What did she say that Lindsay told her during that first appointment?

Lindsay told her that she was anxious, that she was overwhelmed caring for her three children. Lindsay was a labor and delivery nurse herself. And so she went to the doctor saying, I need a little. bit more time to stay home with my children. The prosecutor read aloud the message that Lindsay sent after two appointments with her. Hi, Dr. Tufts. While I am feeling just better enough to function without medication, I did reach out to my employer about extending my leave for reasons of postpartum anxiety slash depression. I don't feel mentally well enough to return to taking care of patients with a baby at home that still won't take the bottle. Gosh, you know, just hearing that,

I think that that's something that a lot of new mothers would certainly relate to, the no sleeve, the baby won't eat. Dr. Tufts initially diagnosed Lindsay with generalized anxiety disorder and an adjustment disorder with depressed mood. But notably, nothing in there mentioned psychosis or hearing voices during that initial meeting, right? No, and Lindsay filled out a form about suicide for that initial meeting, one of those intake forms. And in it, she said that she wasn't contemplating suicide, self-harm, or hurting other people. Tufts testified that she asked Lindsay at several of their sessions over the next few months about this. And each time, Lindsay said that she was not suicidal or homicidal. Now, their last session, this is notable, took place the day before the children were

killed. Here's how Dr. Tufts described that visit. Did you ask her if she had suicidal ideation or homicidal ideation on the 23rd? Yes, I did. What was her response? No. And did you notice any symptoms or signs of psychosis that day? No. That's just so chilling to hear that this took place, this conversation took place literally the day before she killed her children. Now, I have to ask, Nate, what about medication? Did Dr. Tufts help explain this kind of cocktail of medication that the defense has been talking about several times? Dr. Tufts explained that she recommended to Lindsay that she take the lowest dose of Zoloft, which is a very common antidepressant, even though Lindsay was prescribed the medication,

when Dr. Tufts met with her two weeks later, she told the doctor she hadn't started it. Now, eventually Lindsay did start taking that medication, Zoloft, right? That's according to the doctor's testimony. And she prescribed a different medication to her as well, Ativan, which helped her sleep. So not necessarily a lot of medication, but we should say that Dr. Tufts didn't really have the complete picture because Lindsay was also seeing other doctors at the same time. Were they kind of at least cross-referencing her prescriptions to see what other medication she was taking and how they could possibly interact with each other or how they could possibly interact with each other or how. have issues? Not really. And the defense made a big deal about that, saying, why didn't these doctors request the records from the other providers? Now, the psychiatrist countered that Lindsay told her, Lindsay Clancy told her, well, I've gone here and I've gone here and they've prescribed me this, but as far as getting actual documentation, those records were never requested, at least by Dr. Tufts. So that ended the prosecution's questioning of Dr. Tufts. But she was back on the stand for Defense Cross on Monday. Lindsay's defense attorney, Kevin Redington, really pressed Dr. Tufts on her experience. And it sounded like he was really working to kind of discredit her there on the stand. Yeah, this is a young doctor who had only been practicing independently for a little over a month when she first saw Lindsay Clancy. She said she had become board certified in psychiatry.

same day that Lindsay Clancy reached out to her. I have to ask, Nate, do we know how Lindsay found her? Did she just Google her? How did she happen upon this doctor? According to court documents, an internet search. Now, on her webpage, Dr. Tufts does say that she is an expert at perianatal issues. Kevin Redington really pressed her on that issue to be like, what were you saying to the public? Maybe we're exaggerating your claims about your resume. And just to be clear about what's actually on Dr. Tuff's web page, she has a column titled Areas of Expertise, and underneath that, it lists Paranatal Psychiatry.

Now, in her biography, she writes parinatal psychiatry as a particular interest. Let's listen to a little bit of that testimony. So you understand that if, in fact, it's determined that you advertise as an expert in post-partner, and at post-prime psychiatry, would you consider that to be negligent or misrepresentation? I do not believe that I have been negligent. Do you understand what this representation is? Yes. For the month of the adult,

or your residency, do you really want this jury to believe that you were an expert? Do you advertise that? I just think the wording was that it's an interest of mine. I don't believe I call myself an expert. Are you an expert in post-time? I maybe, I don't know. I think it depends on,

wife, you just find an expert ask. So during that cross, it was also revealed that Dr. Tufts only met with Lindsay virtually on telehealth. Right. In fact, Kevin Redington, the attorney pointed out that the first time Lindsay Clancy and Dr. Tuff saw each other face to face was in the courtroom during this trial. And those appointments were relatively brief meetings on the computer screen. And Kevin Reddington repeatedly said, could she have been doing something off-screen, showing signs of anxiety or other conditions that you're not able to see through the screen? And the doctor said, the standard of care these days for a lot of practices is telehealth. And the way that you're describing all of this, Nate, it sounds like these were some very tense moments of testimony.

Any other tense exchanges that you saw during this cross? Several. Perhaps the most tense moment was when Dr. Tufts was confronted with notes, she took following a session. that she had with Lindsay. On those notes, she wrote the phrase, not hyper, comma, pressured speech. What is pressured speech? What exactly is that describing? Pressured speech could be speaking too fast. You're speaking too slow. You have signs of mania in your speech. But according to Dr. Tufts, that's not what she meant to write. Can you just read this paragraph here for us? Not hyper-pressured speech.

What was that? Not hyper-what? Not hyper, not pressured speech is what I meant. I know it doesn't say not, but that is exactly what I meant. When did you see this that you noticed that it did not say not? I don't care what it says. I know what I meant. She did not have pressure speech. I wrote that, but you're misinterpreting my note.

Am I reading this correctly, and the jury will be able to look at it, that you put not hyper, comma, pressured speech. Did I read that right? Yes, but your interpretation is incorrect. As opposed to you? She meant to write not pressured speech, but she forgot the not. But that completely changes the meaning of those notes. Or the doctor was not accurate in taking notes.

And so if a juror wonders, if the doctor was wrong on this, what else was she wrong on? And this was probably the most tense moment we've seen in the trial thus far. Well, Nate, you've been following every twist in terms of. of this case, what do you expect to happen next in this trial? Of course, the big question is, will Lindsay Clancy testify herself? Because that could really sway jurors' opinions one way or another. If you get up there and you have a mother who confesses to doing all of these things, but then talks about her mental state, that will be very, very compelling testimony. Well, either way it goes, this is just a tragic story all around. We really appreciate you, bringing us up to speed on it.

Thank you. Thank you, Blaine. Coming up, a California mother of four has been missing for two years. Will prosecutors finally be able to take her husband to trial for her murder? In the summer of 2024, dozens of people reached out to Dateline about the same missing woman out of Northern California. Her name was Nikki Chang-Sailie McCain, a 39-year-old mother of four who had seemingly vanished on May 18th, 24. Her three sisters told our dateline missing in America team that they were desperate to find her and they were adamant that Nikki would never just walk away. Then more than a year later,

in August of 2025, even though Nikki's body had never been found, the sheriff of Shasta County made an announcement. The detectives has determined that Nikki is a victim of homicide. Detectives also further concluded that Nikki's husband, Tyler Scott McCain, is responsible for Nikki's death. Tyler has pleaded not guilty to charges, including first-degree murder. At a preliminary hearing, prosecutors revealed some of their evidence against Tyler, ranging from forensic analysis of Nikki's truck to a recording that she made in the weeks before her alleged death. Tyler's defense team, however, is pushing back on this, arguing that there was another person in Nikki's life who could have harmed her, her alleged lover. Tyler was expected to go on trial in just a few

weeks time, but on Monday, his defense team asked for a delay. We're joined now by Blake Mayfield. He's a reporter with our affiliate NBC24 Action News Now. Blake, thank you so much for being here and bringing us up to speed. First, let's just talk about Nikki. I want to give our listeners a sense of who she was. What have you learned about her through all of this? Yeah, Nikki was 39 years old. She was from the Reading area. She was one of four sisters, and all the sisters were really close with each other. I think family was a big emphasis for all them. And her sisters described her as just being goofy and funny. She was also feisty and outgoing. They described her as the one with the big personality. Well, when you talk about her siblings, I mean, her siblings have been very clear from

the beginning. She would not get up and leave. It was completely out of character. What was the first sign for Nikki's siblings that something was wrong? She stopped responding to their text messages. is. Chloe, one of her sisters, reported her missing on May 22nd. And then days later after that, I think just three on May 25th, Nikki's Chevy Avalanche was actually found off Highway 36 in Western Tahoeia County, but Nikki was nowhere to be found. And at the time, I remember that the public heard from Tyler, actually, basically appearing at a press conference and asking for help in this case. Let's listen to some of that. I'm the husband of Nikki. I think of Sheriff's office of FBI for getting involved.

Any efforts that might help bring my wife home safely, we miss you. What people don't know while they were watching that presser is that six months before that happened, six months before she disappeared, Nikki had actually accused Tyler of assaulting her. Walk us through that accusation. Yeah, so in December of 2023, Nikki went to the hospital. She had black eyes and other injuries to her head and face. And according to the sheriff's complaint, she told police that Tyler had attacked her. and held her down, repeatedly punched her and even dragged her across the floor. She also said that he taped her wrists and ankles together and put tape over her mouth and

threatened to kill her. She said there had been previous incidents, but this one in particular was one of the worst ones. Oh, gosh, those allegations are terrifying. Now, Tyler has denied hurting Nikki, but prosecutors pressed charges against him. At the time, Nikki disappeared. He had a court date that was coming up. What happened to those charges, those charges on her allegations of abuse after Nikki disappeared. Well, the DA explained at the time that without Nikki there to testify, prosecutors couldn't move forward with the case. And getting those charges dropped is why prosecutors think that Tyler murdered Nikki,

it's his alleged motive. But what did prosecutors have to even prove that she was dead? I mean, again, to this day, they've never found her body. I should say, this is actually the first no-body case that will be prosecuted in Chesa County history. So it is a big deal here. We learned a lot of the preliminary hearing. It was six days long.

A lot of witnesses, I was in the court for all of them. And it almost felt like a mini trial. It was investigators starting out with what they found in Nikki Chevy Avalanche. Sheriff's deputy testified that when he approached that truck, he smelled what he described as death coming from the covered truck bed. And investigators, they later opened the truck bed. They found a white sheet with blood stains on it,

California Department of Justice criminalists. testified that the blood on the sheet was overwhelmingly likely belonging to Nikki based on DNA comparisons with her sisters and other relatives. And the criminalist testified that other biological material on that sheet showed very strong support for Tyler's inclusion. Wow. So that's just what they found in the truck. But investigators also testified about finding something suspicious at their home at Nikki and Tyler's home. Yeah, that's right. So investigators were looking for physical evidence that could indicate something. happened to Nikki in the house that they lived in together. As part of that search, they used a

chemical that's designed to like reveal traces of blood that may have been cleaned up or otherwise just naked to the human eye. And investigators testified that the chemical reacted on the garage floor, basically indicating that there was possible blood or hemoglobin there in the garage. We talked earlier about a tape recording that Nikki made. Tell us what that was about. Yeah. So this was from the December 23 incident. It was a recording that was taken up. the hospital. You could hear Nikki just describing the brutality of the abuse and just how terrified she was. You can imagine how impactful was to hear not just testimony about what happened to Nikki, but to hear it in her own voice. Wow. So the defense also showed its hand at the preliminary

hearing, right? They got a chance to cross-examine witnesses. What are some of the big takeaways from the defense that we heard? The bloody she found in Nikki's truck that was really, really big. prosecutors alleged that Tower's DNA was on it, but the defense pointed out that there was actually DNA from another man on it, that other man's DNA belonged to Luis Brahas. He actually testified that he was Nikki's lover at the time of her disappearance. And what's more is that he told police he was with her on May 17th, which was the last day that she was known to be alive. How did he possibly explain that? Yeah, Louis testified that they had sex at his house that night on a couch with a sheet over it. He said Nikki would sometimes take dirty laundry back to the home that she shared with Tyler,

and he wasn't sure whether she took that particular sheet with her that night. And Blake, there's more here. According to Luis, he and Nikki actually had an argument that night? Yeah, Louis testified that he and Nikki argued by text and phone. In one text, he told Nikki she was, quote, going to pay. Louis testified that those messages came from jealousy and insecurity and said that he did regret them. At the preliminary hearing, prosecutors asked him directly whether. he killed Nikki, and he told them, quote, I did not.

Now, remember, all of this is happening last fall. These are preliminary hearings, but the judge did decide that there was enough evidence for Tyler to stand trial. But actually getting to that trial has been a completely different story. It was originally scheduled to begin last November in 2025, but the judge granted the defense's motion to delay it until March 26. The trial was again pushed to August, which was supposed to be a couple weeks from now. And then on Monday, the judge heard yet another motion. to delay from Tyler's defense team. This time they said that they needed more time to file a motion to move the trial, arguing that Tyler cannot get a fair trial in Shasta County, given all the media attention that this case has received.

So, Blake, I'm curious, what did the judge decide here? Blaine, it actually got delayed until February of next year. So three delays now, four different dates overall have been set. We'll see if this one sticks. Gosh, I can't imagine how frustrating this is for the family in all of this, just. waiting to finally see all of this be presented in court. Well, Blake, we know that you will continue to follow all of this. We thank you, as always, for your reporting on this. And we'll talk to you again soon. Sounds good. Thanks, Blaine. Up next, it's time for Dateline Roundup. Former only fans model, an accused murderer, Courtney Clenney, takes a plea and Luigi Mangione's final court hearing before

his state trial begins. Plus, rap lyrics as evidence. NBC News legal analyst Danny Savalos tells us why he thinks it's a bad idea. Welcome back to Dateline Roundup. Today, I am joined by Dateline field producer Brittany Morris. Brittany, thanks so much for joining me today. Hey there, Blaine. Thanks for having me. Well, first off, we are headed down to Miami for what looks like it might be the final

chapter in the case of 30-year-old former only fans model, Courtney Clenney. Courtney was accused of fatally stabbing her boyfriend, Christian Obamselly, back in 2022 in a fit of rage. A prosecutor said that it wasn't the first time she had been violent with Christian. Her defense team, however, said she has been the longstanding victim of his abuse. And that Courtney threw a knife at Christian from across the room out of fear when he charged at her. So, Brittany, just bring us up to speed. On Monday, Courtney was back in court. And this was a pretty big moment in this case, right? It was, Blaine. So she was there to enter a guilty plea. Judge Andrea Ricker Wolfson walked Courtney through what we usually see in these types of situations, a plea colloquy.

So in other words, the judge makes sure Courtney has spoken to her lawyer about the plea deal and understands the ramifications of taking a guilty plea. Have you reviewed every line, every word, every page of this plea agreement with your attorney? So I want to take a look at this deal itself and just what exactly it entails. Courtney was originally charged with second-degree murder under Florida sentencing guidelines. She was looking at at least 21 years in prison if she was convicted. So with this plea deal, what is she facing now? So Courtney pled guilty not to a second-degree murder, but to a lesser charge of manslaughter.

And so that meant she received a sentence of six years in prison and five years probation after that. So 15 years reduction in prison time. That's pretty major. And the deal factors in time that's already been started. And Courtney has already been behind bars for quite some time now. So how early could she potentially be released? She was arrested in 2022. And according to her lawyers, she could be released as early as 2028. So Christian's family was also there in the courtroom on Monday. Did they speak at all? Yeah, they did. Several members of his family were present, including his cousin Karen. His mom and dad were there too. They all wore purple bows on their shirts.

Karen, the cousin, she was the first to speak. She read a statement on behalf of Christian's mom. It vividly captured a mother's grief. There is simply too much pain to put on paper. Since April 22, I have lived with fear, anxiety, sleepless nights, heartache, and more tears than I can ever count. It's just hard to listen to them, just speaking about that. I mean, you can imagine their pain throughout this entire ordeal. And Courtney was also, of course,

in the courtroom. She sat there in an orange jumpsuit. At times, she looked like she was about to cry as Christian's family was speaking. Did she make any sort of statement or did she address the family at all? So Courtney did not make any statements herself, but her attorneys, they held a press conference after the sentencing. Her lawyer, Frank Preeto, doubled down on this idea that they'd been ready to go to trial, but the plea deal was too good to pass up. And we also heard from Courtney's father, Kim Kelly, right? Yeah, so Kim Kelly, he read a pre-written statement to the press, and in it he acknowledged that a young man lost his life, and that is a great tragedy. Nothing I can say today diminishes that tragedy with a profound and permanent loss that some may feel. What matters to me now is that for the first time in more than four years, there was an end in sight.

Courtney has the future ahead of her. I'm looking forward to the day I can sit across from her face to face and hug her and tell her how much I love her. There have been so many chapters to this case, Brittany. I mean, it's just stunning to see it all come to an end. Absolutely. Well, up next, we are headed up to Manhattan, where we have an update in the case of Luigi Mangione. That's the man who's been accused of Gunning Down United Healthcare CEO, Ryan Thompson, back in 2024. A pretrial hearing was held on Tuesday ahead of Mangione's upcoming trial in state court. Now, this is expected to be the last hearing before the trial. Can you tell us what was on the agenda here, Brittany? So this case has captured the nation's attention, no doubt. And that undeniably raises questions about whether the spectacle of the trial could overshadow the trial itself. So both the defense and prosecution have strong takes on how open the trial should be. And a lot of what they talked about on Tuesday involved media access to the trial. You know, this came up a few weeks ago when the New York State Office of Court Administration issued guidelines on how, many reporters could actually be inside the courtroom during this trial. And the defense complained that these were far too restrictive. Can you walk us through some of those guidelines? Sure. So that office said that it had selected 68 journalists to cover the trial from inside the

courtroom. And of those 68, only six could be present for jury selection. And the court administration didn't want to have an overflow room for additional spectators. I could see how that could ruffle a lot of feathers, certainly. Well, Mangione's defense team filed a motion demanding changes to the guidelines and information about how those 68 journalists were chosen. How did that shake out? So it was a very quick hearing where the judge reiterated that there has never been a decision to exclude press from access to the trial. The judge did not comment on how those 68 journalists were selected, but said he will now allow an overflow room for the press. And additionally, he said that for jury selection and in regard to the jury, specifically, it will be an anonymous jury.

Oh, interesting. What exactly is an anonymous jury? So this is the first time I have ever heard of one. In normal cases, we don't know all that much about identifying information in regard to the jurors. We might know their age, their job, or where they're from. So for an anonymous jury, that identifying information can be withheld from the police. public, the parties involved, or both for varying lengths of time. Interesting. You know, another thing that we've been watching very closely in all of this, Brittany, is whether or not the proceedings can be broadcast live. It's something that the defense had requested. Has the judge made a decision on that yet? He has not. We will have to wait for that ruling. Well, a lot of eyes are going to be on this trial, of course. We will be watching closely as we approach the start of that trial that's set for September 8th.

Brittany, thank you so much for joining us and breaking all of this down. We appreciate you. You're so welcome. Thank you. This week in a Las Vegas courtroom, D. Davis, a former gang leader, went on trial for the 1996 murder of rap legend Tupac Shakur. Davis has pleaded not guilty, but, as we told you last week, central to the prosecution's case are Davis's very own words, including a passage in his memoir, describing his alleged role in Tupac's shooting. prosecutors say that it amounts to a confession. Now, this is not the first time that we've heard of a case where prosecutors have ripped a defendant's own words from a book or song lyrics to try and prove guilt in front of a jury. And so we asked NBC News legal analyst and defense attorney Danny Savalos to join us and tell us more about this. Danny, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much for having me.

Glad to be back. Let's talk about the importance of a defendant's own words. Those are something that, of course, can be very powerful tools for prosecutors, right? Absolutely. We always find it reliable when somebody is willing to admit that they did something. We trust when the defendant himself says, I did it. So let's dive into this Kee-Feed-D case a little bit more. At first, this all kind of goes back to a memoir that he wrote. Just kind of remind our listeners what was said in that memoir they're pointing to. The defendant here has essentially said that he may not have been the person who pulled the trigger, but he was in the car. and present at the scene of the crime, and at least according to prosecutors, his words evidence, his intent to be involved in this specific crime, which resulted in the death of Tupac.

The defense has said that this memoir was fiction, just basically a way to sell books, to look tough in front of people. I've got to ask, were you surprised that the judge allowed this in his evidence? Well, yes and no. This raises another fascinating issue, the corpus delecti rule. And that is just a fancy Latin word for the idea that you have to have more than just a defendant's words to corroborate a crime. I'll give you an example. If I came to you and said a month ago, I had an illegal firearm and I had a lot of cocaine in my car. Well, I mean, that's certainly helpful to the government, but the government couldn't charge me for that crime with no other evidence other than my words.

So, for example, in this case, it's a little different, right? You do have further evidence of the crime. You have a dead Tupac Shakur. So there is, in a sense, corroboration. But believe me, as a defense attorney, I see it the defense's way, which is that, look, all you have are these words and really nothing else other than a death 30 years ago. You know, all of this, Danny, makes me think of a case out of Georgia right here. It's actually a case that I covered in part. But it was basically a RICO case against a well-known rap artist, young thug, his real name is Jeffrey Williams.

And a portion of that prosecution had to do with rap lyrics. Prosecutors introduced 17 sets of Williams' lyrics to try and prove that YSL, which were the same initials as his record label, Young Stoner Life, was actually a street gang with Williams at the very top of. it. They argued that the lyrics weren't necessarily admissions of specific crimes, but rather promoting the gang and their activities. Young Thug or Jeffrey Williams ultimately pleaded no contest to that RICO charge. Yes, that was a case where the prosecution sought to introduce evidence of rap lyrics to show guilt in the sort of the association with people and the conspiracy and all of these other elements. As a defense attorney, obviously I'm biased, but I see a real problem with introducing artists work as evidence against them. Imagine you're an artist and you create something and then

years later, it just happens that a crime occurs that is close to those lyrics. If the prosecution can show a connection between the lyrics and the crime itself, then it may come in. But how do we know what is a nexus between violent lyrics and a crime of violence? And I would just add, as an asterisk, that you see a lot of rap lyrics, but I can show you, um, I can show you, Several songs in rock and some of the other genres that talk openly about crime. There's, I Shot the Sheriff. I shot the sheriff. But I swear it wasn't subpoena.

There's some of these other country music songs are about shooting people and watching them die. This has always been around. Well, I mean, you make a great point. echoed by the ACLU, the American Civil Liberties Union, that it is more likely that rap lyrics are going to be targeted. They say that it exposes a sort of bias in the system there. Sure. You know, there's also a technical reason. I mean, you could argue that rap lyrics are usually at a faster rhythm, a faster beat, and they contain more words than your typical rock ballad, right, which has a, you know, a two-minute guitar solo and a two-minute introduction that's all

instrumental, whereas rap crams in a lot more content into one song. One last thing I want to get you to touch on, Danny. One case that we've been covering very extensively here on the podcast is the case of David, the artist who's been charged with the murderer and sexual abuse of a teenager who was found dead in his car back in September of last year. He has pleaded not guilty to these charges, but there is a lot of online conversation about whether some of his music could possibly play a role in the criminal proceedings. One of David's songs was a track titled Romantic Homicide.

It released prior to Celeste Rivas Hernandez's murder. And you have words like, in the back of my mind, you died and I didn't even cry. You know, if I step back and just take those words, should we take them in context? Do we just take them in isolation? How do you even analyze how words may have a connection to the crime itself? So again, my concern is that we're living on a slippery slope. If it begins with rap lyrics, where does it end? And should prosecutors be able to bolster a case that might otherwise be a close call by going to an artist's inventory?

It's just a fascinating concept all around. Danny Savalos, thank you so much, friend. We appreciate you. Thank you. And that's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. But don't forget to check out the latest season of the Webby Award-winning podcast, Dateline, Missing in America. Josh Mankowitz looks into six new cases. The first three episodes are out now, and to get early access to new episodes and listen ad-free,

just subscribe to Dateline Premium. Coming up this Friday on Dateline, we've got one of Andrea's most moving episodes. It's about the murder of a Tennessee high school cheerleader, her family's quest for answers, and the teenage boys that helped lead police to her killer. You're going to have two boys in a car with a guy that's believed to have already killed one person with a murder weapon. You know, this is a huge, dangerous thing. Watch noises in the night, Friday at 10-9 Central, on Dateline on NBC. Thanks so much for listening.

Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Carson Cummins, Caroline Casey, and Keani Reed. Our associate producers are Ellery Gladstone Groh and Aria Young. Our senior producer is Liz Brown Kuriloff, production and fact-checking help by Yana Johnson. Veronica Mazzaka is our digital producer. Rick Gwan is our sound designer. original music by Jesse McGinty. Paul Ryan is executive producer, and Liz Cole is Senior Executive Producer of Dateline.

Bye, everybody.