Dateline NBC - Bombshell witness at American Idol murder trial. Lindsay Clancy back in court. Plus, Cornell lawsuit.

Episode Date: October 1, 2026

In Ohio, former American Idol contestant Caleb Flynn is accused of murdering his wife and staging the scene to look like a break-in. His 24-year-old former lover took the stand against him before the jury delivered its verdict. In Delphi, Indiana, Richard Allen was convicted of the 2017 murders of teens Abigail Williams and Liberty German. His defense is now asking for a new trial. In Dateline Round Up, updates in the case of Lindsay Clancy, the Massachusetts mother whose trial for killing her three children ended in a hung jury. Questions hang over Cornell University as prosecutors re-open their investigation into a student’s allegations of sexual assault. Plus, a veteran K9 handler breaks down how police dogs help investigate crimes. Listen to the latest episodes of the Dateline podcast, "Before & After with Lester Holt”: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/before-after-with-lester-holt/id6806378137Find out more about the cases covered each week here: www.datelinetruecrimeweekly.com Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Good morning, everyone. You're listening to the Dateline morning meeting. Is today definitely the closings? Yes. Our producers are swapping tips and story ideas. Is this best friend still around? Is the mom still alive? Even the dentist is a pretty prominent person in the community.

How does this suburban mom meet this killer? Welcome to Dateline True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's October 1st, and here's what's on our docket. A dramatic new chapter in the day. the case of the two young girls found murdered beneath an abandoned bridge near Delphi, Indiana. Lawyers for the man convicted of killing them are demanding a new trial. This behavior stops here. This should never happen to another Hoosier again.

In Dateline Roundup, an update on what's next in the Lindsay Clancy case. And questions hang over Cornell University as prosecutors reopen their investigation into a student's allegations of sexual assault. The DA said that he'll present the case to a grand jury within 45 days and that the Jane Doe is expected to testify. Plus, man's best friend, how can dogs help police solve crimes? A veteran canine handler gives us the lowdown. They are picking up so many different odors, and not just odors, but emotions. Before all that, we are in Troy, Ohio, where a verdict has been reached in the murder trial of a former American Idol contestant. But not before jurors heard one bombshell witness, his former lover. For the past three weeks, jurors have listened to the case of

Caleb Flynn, a man who first made a name for himself when he competed on Idol 13 years ago. Now, prosecutors have accused him of murdering his wife Ashley as she lay sleeping in their bed, and then staging the scene to make it look like a home invasion. His alleged motive? He wanted to start his life over with his 24-year-old lover, Aaliyah Botner. Caleb denied that and pleaded not guilty. But in over six hours of emotional testimony, jurors got to hear from Alia herself as she detailed the affair and Caleb's spiral into talk of murder. How would you describe your feelings from the defendant today? I hate him. Why the change from love to hate? Because I believe that he in love of his life. On Tuesday morning, the prosecution and defense made their case to the jury one last

time in closing arguments. By the end of the day, a verdict. Here to fill a sentence. Here to fill a in on the final days of the trial as Dateline Field producer Justin Ratchford. Welcome back, Justin. Hi, Andrea. Thanks for having me. So we first heard about Alia in the prosecution's opening statement. She is central to their case, of course, when it comes to motive. And her testimony was highly anticipated. What was the atmosphere like in court, Justin, when she took the stand? I'm sure you could hear a pin drop in there. Right. So everyone at that time had already heard about allegations of their affair. So from the moment that Alia sat down, there was a real sense of uneasiness and, I guess, morbid curiosity of what would be revealed. What did she tell the court about how she and Caleb first met? Where did this all start?

This started in the church. Alia said that she was a 20-year-old intern when she and Caleb first met at their Ohio Church, Christian Life Center in 2022. Alia said that at first, the relationship was purely professional, but things changed in March 24. Eventually, that relationship became romantic and sexual. She is a key witness, as we said, for the prosecution, but she also had to admit to a relationship with a married man and father of two kids. How did the state handle that? The prosecution pressed Alia pretty hard on the fact that she knew that Caleb was a married man. If you knew the defendant was married, how did you morally justify a sexual relationship with the defendant? It was completely long, and I shouldn't have.

At first I was strong, and I said, this isn't okay. We shouldn't do this. And he kept pursuing. And it just started with little things and then it grew like cancer. And I found a southern place I never thought it would be. Aaliyah told the jurors they were talking about getting married and having a family. Yeah. And she even showed the jury that she and Caleb had gotten matching tattoos.

It was a lightning bolt from Harry Potter. She had gotten it on her arm. And she said that Caleb actually got his underneath his armpit so his wife Ashley wouldn't find out. And that wasn't the only attempt, right, to keep the affair. secret, she said? Right. According to Alia, they had communicated on several different apps like WhatsApp, GroupMe, and regularly deleted their messages so they wouldn't be caught. Prosecutors say that just on GroupMe alone, they had been messaging over 107,000 times over the course of a year. And on average, that's about 300 messages a day. That's a lot. Prosecutors got Alia to read some of those messages

to the jury. Right. According to prosecutors, the text that Caleb wrote to Alia really shows, what he was feeling about his wife, Ashley, in his own words. And Caleb constantly told Aaliyah how much she wanted her gone. If I could literally kill her and not go to hell, I would do it in a heartbeat. That's how dark and how hateful I feel. Justin, what are some of the responses the court heard from Aaliyah? Based on the messages we heard, Aaliyah agreed with him pretty much throughout the relationship they were having.

She talked about wanting Ashley dead and calling her names, and there were just times throughout her testimony when she became emotional reading those texts. saying that she's regretful and at one point whispering, I'm so sorry. Sorry. I just wish I didn't say this. What was the message said? I didn't need it. It says,

says I want to kill her, Caleb. Who said that? Me. Next message. I said it's so bad. Next message. He said that makes two of us. According to prosecutors, the affair with Alia may have pushed Caleb into actually carrying out his threats to kill his wife.

This goes to the heart of what the state says is the motive. Right. According to these messages, Alia was pressuring Caleb to end his marriage and finally be with Alia for good. Eventually, Alia gave him a final deadline, January 11th of this year. And when Caleb didn't divorce Ashley that time, Alia said that she was really done. How did Caleb handle this breakup? Caleb continued to try contact Alia, even sending her songs that he wrote for her. He wrote the lyrics, but the music and the vocals were generated by AI.

Let's take a listen to some of that music. How did Caleb and other people in the courtroom react to this music? Caleb looked at best somber and maybe trying to disassociate himself from the moment. Okay, so back to our motive. The prosecution suggests that. that Caleb killed Ashley to get Alia back. Right. So the prosecution said that just days before Ashley was murdered,

Caleb had reached out to Alia again and told her that this time was for real and he was finally going to leave Ashley. Alia finished up her testimony by talking about what Caleb told her just a few hours before Ashley was killed. And this is really a pivotal moment for the state. In his final message to Alia that night, he said, I choose you, Alia. you're more than enough. Good night. The prosecutor asked Alia to read the jury what she wrote to Caleb right after she heard that Ashley was killed.

Let's take a listen. The next message was, Caleb, I just saw the news. Someone told me to pray for Mrs. Flynn. In all caps, what is going on right now? Were you behind this? I deleted that message. I said, what is going on? Is this real? How did the defense handle Alia, Justin, on cross-examination?

The defense tried their best to really attack Aaliyah's credibility. They also put more context around Caleb's messages, showing that Alia often sought reassurance from Caleb that he hated his wife. Did you at the time not believe that Caleb actually hated Ashley? There were a lot of times that I questioned it. Why? Because we shared location and I would see him at a restaurant or a movie theater and later find out that they were there to go.

and then I would see text messages on his phone from her saying that she loves him and she always seemed to you know be very loving towards him so that made me think that he was also loving towards her. So in your opinion at the time that he is saying that he hates Ashley is he saying that as a lie to make you feel better? The prosecution rested on Monday, and it was the defense's turn. They did not call any witnesses, Justin. So technically the defense doesn't have to prove anything. So not calling a witness may be a signal that the defense believes that the prosecution did not prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt. Closing arguments happened Tuesday morning.

And this did not take long on Tuesday for the jury to deliberate. Yeah, not long at all. Really, the jury started deliberating right around the lunch break. And it just took them about two and a half hours to return a verdict. As a verdict to count one, aggravated murder. We, the jury in this case, being duly impanled and sworn, find the defendant, Caleb C. Flynn, guilty of aggravated murder, as charged in count one of the indictment. Caleb was found guilty on all nine counts, including multiple murder and weapons charges.

Justin, I watched the verdict live. It started with Caleb kind of lightly shaking his head. and then transitioned into this sort of what I would describe as almost dry sobbing? Right. He just started sobbing. He was breaking down in front of everyone in complete agony. And right behind him, you could see his father in the gallery, and he was just looking just as somber. On the other hand, Ashley's family and friends, they remained calm through it, but you can definitely see them view this as a victory. They were hugging each other. They were overjoyed by the verdict. And you can really tell it was an emotional moment for everyone. Yeah, very small courtroom. I could see a couple of people in there wiping away tears.

What is next for Caleb now? He's awaiting sentencing. That's right. The judge scheduled a sentencing date for October 5th. And it seems like Caleb could be facing up to life without the possibility of parole. Okay, we will keep an eye out for that and bring you the latest. Thank you for bringing us the verdict, Justin. Thanks, Andrea. Coming up, two years after a man was convicted in the Delphi double murder trial, his defense attorney urged a panel of judges to throw out the verdict. Almost two years have passed since an Indiana jury reached a verdict in a double murder trial that gripped the nation. Richard Allen was found guilty of the 2017 murders of 13-year-old

Abigail Williams and 14-year-old Libby German. He was convicted of forcing the girls off an old railway bridge near the town of Delphi, killing them in the woods below. Alan was sentenced to 130 years in prison. Now, Allen's defense attorneys are asking for that conviction to be overturned. In a dramatic hearing, they argued in front of three appellate court judges that Allen had been railroaded by investigators and an overzealous judge. This is not how a system should work. It is how a system fails. Here to tell us what this all means is Dateline producer Marianne O'Donnell, who's been covering this case for us from the beginning. Mary Ann, welcome back to the podcast. Thanks for having me, Andrea.

Yeah. So, Marian, it's been a while since we talked about this story, but there was a time when you and I were talking almost every week about the ins and outs of this case. And together we aired a Dateline episode called A Walk Through the Woods. So we spent a lot of time on this. Remind us what exactly happened to these two girls in 2017 in those woods. Sure. Well, the account goes like this. These two girls, Abigail Williams and Libby German, they were best friends in eighth grade. And they had the day off from school. So the two said, you know what, let's take pictures outside. And the place to do it in town was this Manin Bridge, which is an old railway bridge. It stands, I think, 60 feet over this creek. It's really scary. It is. It is. Because we, you know, we went up there. And when you look down and you see just, it's just not put together, this bridge. Correct. It looks like you could. It's rotted through. Right. So the girls are dropped off, roughly around 1.30.

And they're supposed to meet up with one of the girls' dads at around 3.30. Well, the dad appears, but the girls don't show. And immediately, the family is like, wait, where are they? They called police. And really, to Delphi's credit, police, fire, they got involved right away. way, and they started searching for those girls all through the night. Citizens did too, but it wasn't until around noon the next day that they finally were found and not far from the bridge from which they disappeared. Yeah, and Marianne, it was a very gruesome scene. The girls

had been stabbed to death. And of course, one of the things that our listeners may remember about this case is that chilling video footage that one of the girls captured on her phone right. before they were killed. It was remarkable, and it was a remarkable act of quick thinking in a moment of distress. These two girls are at the far end of the bridge, and one of the girls sees this man coming across the bridge toward them, and that girl takes her phone, she hits record. What she does is she catches a glimpse of this man coming toward them, and then the garbled words he utters to the effect of down the hill. This mystery suspect at the time, you know, became known as bridge guy.

That's right. Because, you know, you couldn't, you just couldn't quite tell who it was. He could be any guy, USA, any guy in Indiana. All right. So we go forward five years. Investigators arrested a Delphi man named Richard Allen. Allen worked at a local CVS. He had no apparent connection to the girls.

And Marian, we remember this very well. Alan was a lead that they had early on that unfortunately fell through the cracks. It was a remarkable twist in an investigation. A twist that probably never would have come about. Had it not been for an eagle eye volunteer five years after the fact, she's clearing out a drawer. she comes upon this old police report. A man named Richard Allen had stepped forward in the days after the girls were found to say, hey, I was there at the bridge, and I don't remember seeing any girls.

And then that was never followed up. Now, five years later, this clerk looks at it, and she says, oh, my God. A member of law enforcement, we interviewed, said, this is our guy. And Richard Allen, I mean, even though, again, you can't see, perfectly see who this person is. this video, he did have a lot of those characteristics of a bridge guy. So, Marian, the ballistics evidence in this case, it becomes really important. Critical. This is what ostensibly gets him arrested. At the scene of the crime, there was an unspent bullet. They do a search warrant on Allen's house. Lo and behold, he has many guns, but he has one gun in particular. And the bullet

is a match to the ammunition that would be used for that gun. He finally went to trial in the fall of 2024. And, you know, something that really took center stage at the trial were these statements or confessions that Richard Allen made in custody after his arrest. Tell us about them and how they factored into everything. So what's unusual here is when a suspect is arrested for a violent crime, they're usually detained at a county. jail. Not so in this case. From day one, he is housed at a prison in solitary confinement. Well, while Richard Allen is incarcerated, he makes a series of phone calls confessions that he, in fact, did kill these girls. And he even confesses to his prison psychologist and says, yeah, I did this.

So those become critical evidence in the prosecution's case against him. And so Alan's defense team at the time said that those confessions were coerced, you know, that they happened because he was in solitary confinement. And a state of psychosis is really what they were saying. They even had a UN expert on these kind of situations that said solitary confinement like this, you don't do this because you can't trust a confession that comes out of a situation like that. Right. And they said he was, you know, speaking incoherently, oh, he was eating his own feces. Yeah. It was so disturbing. was. In the end, after 19 hours of deliberation, the jury found Richard Allen guilty of murdering the girls. And that brings us to now. Years later, we're talking about this again. Tell us about what the defense is trying to accomplish for Richard Allen in 2026. Well, the defense obviously filed an appeal. And recently a three-judge panel heard the defense appeal and heard from the prosecution. And really, the defense. It's boiled down to a couple of things. Obviously, those confessions.

For the first time in Indiana's modern history, the state took a pretrial detainee directly to a cell known as the whole, kept him there as he descended into psychosis and became gravely disabled, treated him worse than anyone else in his situation, and procured statements by exploiting his decompensation. The defense is saying the judge should never have allowed those confessions into the trial. what did the prosecutors have to say about that? The prosecution says, listen, when he made several of these statements, he sounds rational, he sounds put together, there's no coercion. If you listen to the phone calls that he makes to his wife, he is completely lucid,

completely coherent, completely rational in those calls. There's no evidence of psychosis in them at all. And from day one, when he was incarcerated, prosecutors said he is in solitary for his own protection. That was why he was in solitary confinement all that time. Our case law is clear that those ordinary conditions are not coercive state action that renders a statement involuntary. You protected him into psychosis. The judge seemed to get a little testy with the prosecution saying you protected him into psychosis. That's right. It was a dramatic moment when she seemed to indicate just a little bit of patience, discusses.

everyone might infer something different, but it was a dramatic moment. The defense went on to talk about another big mistake they think the trial judge made when she ruled that Allen's defense attorneys could not tell the jury about alternate suspects. The trial court systematically barred Allen from proving that he was not the man on the bridge, not the man in the woods killing the girls, and not the man who left that bizarre and deliberate scene. So, Marian, who else did the defense say that this man could be? Did they bring up a name? They did. The name they brought up was Brad Holder. The defense is saying he had known ties to odinism and his son was friendly with one of the victims. Odinism, an old Norse mythology, religion, enters this case because sticks placed on the body of one of the girls. Almost resemble runes, old Norse ruins. And the defense is saying these girls were sacrificed as some part of blood. ritual in the name of Obnism. And by the way, our defendant has no history of being related to this at all. Brad Holder has never been charged with anything, and he has denied having anything to do with the murders of the girls. But you said, Marion, according to the defense,

Brad Holder, he had these ties to odinism, and they feel the jury should have been allowed to hear that evidence. But Brad Holder's employer said, oh, no, no, no, no. We have the punch card. You know, he was still working that day at the resumed time the girls were killed. The recent hearing lasted about an hour. What is next in the process, Marianne? Well, we wait for a decision, a ruling. That will be next.

And their ruling would either be the conviction stands or we set it aside. And there's a new trial and a new day in court for Richard Allen. And these things we know can take months, even a year. That's right. All right. Thank you very much, Marianne, for. revisiting this case with us. Happy to do so. Thanks, Andrea.

Up next, it's time for Dateline Roundup. Lindsay Clancy is back in court, and a student's family raises questions about how one of the country's top universities handled allegations of sexual assault. Plus, a canine handler on working with dogs at a crime scene. Welcome back. Joining me for this week's Roundup is Dateline field producer Alex Lurray. Alex, thanks for coming on. Hey, Andrea.

Thanks for having me. So up first, Alex, Lindsay Clancy. She was back in a Plymouth County, Massachusetts courthouse this week. This is the first time since jurors deadlocked 11 to 1 at her murder trial and a mistrial was called. Lindsay, a former labor and delivery nurse, admitted to killing her three young children, but she pleaded not guilty at her trial. Her defense said she wasn't in a right mind due to postpartum psychosis. prosecutors, however, argued that Lindsay knew exactly what she was doing and planned the whole thing. So, Alex, this case continues to make headlines. There are so many issues that need to get sorted out in court with regard to what comes next with this case. Yeah, a lot has been going on in court. Lindsay's defense attorney, Kevin Redington, filed several motions ahead of this week's status hearing.

One of his motions argues that Lindsay can't be retried on the same charges, saying that it would amount to double jeopardy. Another motion is calling for an investigation into the holdout juror in the case, but the motion that got a hearing in court on Tuesday is perhaps the most surprising. Reddington is arguing that the charges should be dropped because of a lack of evidence that Lindsay killed her children. Where's the evidence that she did this? Where is the admission? Where does she say that she did this? Alex, what did he say is the basis for that?

Reddington argued during the trial that Lindsay admitted to killing her children but shouldn't be held criminally responsible. This is the complete opposite of that. Yeah. Reddington didn't really elaborate much. It was a pretty quick argument only about 10 minutes, but he did say that Lindsay never admitted to investigators that she killed the children. He argued there is not enough evidence to charge her with three counts of murder. Okay. So how did prosecutors respond to this? It was a surprise at first, and then they pointed to all the evidence that they did present at trial. Remember, they called over 70 witnesses over weeks of testimony. For the first time, the defendant is arguing that there's no evidence that she did this. I suggest to you that the entire record is voluminous as to the information supporting the fact that she did this.

Did the judge make any rulings on the motions that were presented this week? He did not. He said that he's taking them under advisement and scheduled another status conference for November 2nd. He said that this next hearing, a trial date, will be discussed as well. The DA said that he had, hasn't decided whether to retry Lindsay, so we'll be keeping an eye on for that. We're going to continue to do our job to make sure that we do what's best for the interests of justice and the interests of those three children. Up next, Alex, we've got the latest on a disturbing story that broke in upstate New York earlier this week. The district attorney in Tompkins County announced he is reopening a criminal investigation

into an incident that allegedly took place at a Cornell University Fraternity House back in 2024 four that led to allegations of sexual assault. Alex, why this new interest from the DA into this case? Yeah, so two weeks ago, a former Cornell student filed a civil lawsuit against seven students who she says sexually assaulted her. The former student filed the lawsuit under the name Jane Doe to protect her privacy. She says she was 20 years old at the time that this happened. Yeah, that's right, Andrea. she says that she was applied with alcohol and drugs

to the point of intoxication by some members of the frat house and was then assaulted by the seven students she's named. Included in the lawsuit or Snapchat messages that Jane Doe alleges were sent in the frat encouraging other members to join the alleged gang rape. Jane Doe is also suing Cornell, among others in the lawsuit. What is her basis for suing the university? Jane Doe is accusing the University of negligence

saying that it failed to protect her and that it should have known the fraternity posed a risk. She also argues in the lawsuit that the university failed to adequately discipline the students. She says the students were suspended temporarily and some of them were allowed

to submit essays to try to get their punishment reduced. Alex, the case has caught the attention of New York Governor Kathy Hochel who is calling for a transparent, independent review of the university's response. What is Cornell University saying about all this? The university strongly disputes that any of the students involved were offered the opportunity to write essays as the sole consequence of their involvement. The university said that it conducted a thorough investigation over the course of several months.

Cornell says several of the students were expelled and some were suspended and the fraternity chapter was barred from campus. The big question is, Alex, did the police ever get involved in this after it happened? According to the lawsuit, Jane Doe reported the incident to the campus police a few weeks after the alleged assault. The university told NBC News that the campus police conducted an investigation and consulted with the DA. Okay, which brings us back to the district attorney. We mentioned that he was reopening the criminal investigation. That suggests there was an investigation in 2024, but nothing came of it. So what has changed?

Earlier this week, the DA told NBC News that the Jane Doe initially described, the encounter as consensual. But given what she's alleging in her civil lawsuit, he'd be open to looking into this further. Now that this lawsuit has been filed, that raises the question that Jane Doe believes there's additional evidence. We want to talk to her.

We want to flesh out with her what that additional evidence is. After the DA gave that interview, CBS News reported that, according to the transcript of Jane Doe's interview with campus police back in 2020, She said, quote, I can say with 100% confidence that I was raped, end quote. NBC News has yet to see a copy of that transcript. The DA told NBC News he was not aware of that specific quote and it wasn't included in the written statement he received from campus police when he was weighing whether to bring charges two years ago. For its part, Cornell University says its police department passed on all investigatory information to the DA. Alex, what is the DA said about where the case goes from here? He said he's going to present the case to a grand jury within 45 days and that Jane Doe is expected to testify.

NBC News has reached out to all seven students named in the lawsuit, and at the time of this taping, we had heard back from two of their attorneys. They deny her allegations. Have we heard from Jane Doe herself since the news broke? In a written statement, Jane Doe says she hopes to, quote, recover. from this trauma, but it is extremely difficult. It affects every aspect of my life. It will haunt me and be part of me for the rest of my life. All right. Thank you, Alex. We will see how this story develops. Thank you for coming on. Yeah, thanks for having me, Andrea. For our final story this week, we wanted to find out more about the use of canines at crime scenes.

It's something that came up in the Caleb Flynn trial. A canine handler told the jury that that his dog had not been able to pick up the scent of an intruder at Caleb's home, which undermined Caleb's story of a home invasion. So I wanted to be able to confirm that we didn't have a suspect that fled. So I have him walk around the house and check the property. And did you have indicated any sense trail during the rumor search? He did not. How do handlers work with police dogs to investigate crimes?

And what exactly can they do? Here to walk us through it, is retired Sergeant Doug Ruler, a veteran police canine expert with over 25 years of experience and the former chief trainer for the Los Angeles Police Department's K9 platoon. Welcome to the podcast, Doug. Thank you. I appreciate it. So interesting to talk to you about this subject because dogs can be very, very important when it comes to crime fighting.

And, you know, we think of law enforcement these days as being high tech. You know, you think of AI, the latest forensic. tools, but, you know, I love how these dogs fall into the old-fashioned crime-fighting bucket, right? Definitely. And nothing's out there yet. They can replace them. I mean, they've tried different mechanical devices that could pick up certain kinds of odor, but so far nothing comes close to what a dog can do, the right dog can do. We are talking about dogs that can help investigators, dug, mainly through their noses, because their sense of smell is just so powerful. We use dogs for so many things in the police world, you know, searching for criminals and bad guys.

The true value is not so much the ability of a dog to stop somebody, but to find somebody with their nose or to find an item or a drug or what have you. I mean, a dog's sense of smell, depending on what expert you're talking to you, can be anywhere from 100,000 to 150,000 times better than a man. Wow. Incredible. So, Doug, I actually put it to the test. I did a WebExter for a Dateline story I was working on in Connecticut. years back. So I left a personal item on the road for a Connecticut state police canine named Rocky who did not see me drop this item. Take a listen to this. I want to leave my makeup bag here on this little road and disappear and we'll see if Rocky can find me. A few minutes later, Doug, Rocky was very easily able to find me hidden in the woods. Find you.

I can tell you story after story where a dog might hit on somebody. Usually what we do in my field is we set up a containment like you see on the news and they bring in the canines. And sometimes that dog would pick his nose up and he's hitting odor about a block away. Sometimes we'd be searching because the guy was just there maybe 15, 20 minutes ago. They're showing a dramatic change in behavior. The dog is alerting. He's flagging his body a certain way. Can a dog zero in on a scent that may seem out of place or provide a clue of some kind? Well, that's 100% what a lot of big city dogs do.

They are picking up so many different odors and not just odors, but emotions. They end up hitting on enhanced scent that somebody puts out when they're a fight or flight. That kind of fear. When you experience that, you put out a lot of metabolic changes that come over your body, whether it's noradrenaline, epinephrine. And when a dog has enough experience, they learn to discriminate on that kind of odor. Yeah. So in the case of Caleb Flynn, a dog was used at the crime scene to pick up a scent.

They used a bloodhound. What are really good breeds that you like for police work? Some of those breeds for detection work would be like Labadors, some of the pointers. Beagles are used sometimes. The military uses a lot of labs. They're calmer, but you also want a dog that can take down a bad guy if he needs to. The Malawas, the Dutch shepherds, the German shepherds are pretty much primarily used in that arena. Doug, just tell us what a training regimen looks like to.

get them prepared to be out in the field? Well, you start off with leash work. You make sure the dog respects the handler and vice versa, and then you develop skill with the team, what's called the search team. In my world, when I'm trying to get a dog ready for the street to find bad guys, they probably have already been taught how to bite. They might be on a sleeve or a bite suit, and we make sure that that is done properly. And the big thing in my court is to make sure you have really good control over the

dog. But the process might take a few months to get the dog up and running with a team and get them ready for the street. What does the bond like between a dog and a handler? I would imagine it would be really important. And does the dog live with the handler? Yeah. In the police departments, you want that dog to be with that handler for the service of life of the animal. The special forces, guys, they take the dogs home. They bond up. They become best buds. Yeah, that's great. I love that. And I think our listeners will love to hear that handlers can adopt the dogs after the dogs retire, which is lovely. Yeah, most departments do that. Most police departments, they always give the option. Yeah, and it can be a ceremonial $1 to pay the police department to adopt.

Exactly. All right, Doug. Well, my dog, Topaz is scratching at the door like crazy to be let out. We're so glad you came on. Thank you for talking about what you. you do. Yeah, it was my pleasure. Thank for everyone. That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly. But don't forget to check out Lester's new podcast series before and after when he talks to people whose lives were transformed in a moment. In his latest episode, Adrian Hasslett, a survivor of the Boston Marathon bombing, reveals her disturbing connection to the Green River killer. As we prepared to do this, you sent an email. Yeah, I did. And there was something else you wanted.

wanted to talk about. Yeah, definitely. There's so much more to that story that I've been wanting to tell. You can find that now wherever you get your podcasts. And to get early access to future episodes, ad-free, subscribe to Dateline Premium. Coming up this Friday on Dateline, Blaine's got a story you'll want to catch about a daughter who set out to solve the 30-year-old mystery of who attacked her mother. What she uncovered, stunned them both. I was flattened, devastated, shot, Beyond belief. Watch Unmasking the Monster at 9-8 Central on Dateline on NBC. Thanks for listening.

Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Carson Cummins, Caroline Casey, and Keani Reed. Our associate producers are Ellery Gladstone Grohath and Aria Young. Our senior producer is Liz Brown-Korloff. Veronica Mazaka is our digital producer. Rick Kwan is our sound designer. Original music by Jesse McGinty. Paul Ryan is executive producer. And Liz Cole is Senior.

executive producer of Dateline. Bye everyone.