Dateline NBC - Talking Dateline: The Man of Many Faces

Episode Date: December 18, 2024

Andrea Canning and Dateline producer Lynn Keller go behind the scenes of their latest episode, “The Man of Many Faces."  In 2020, American fugitive Nicholas Rossi tried to evade law enforcement and a slew of criminal charges by faking his own death, fleeing the country, and taking on a new persona. Andrea and Lynn talk about their determination to track him down and what it was like interviewing him. They discuss meeting one of Nick’s accusers and share their reaction to Rossi’s latest explanation for his changing identities. Plus, Andrea shares a clip from her interview with a Glasgow pub owner who thought it was strange the man claiming to be an Irish orphan didn’t know of a famous British dish. Later, they’ll answer your questions from social media. Listen to the full episode of “The Man of Many Faces” on Apple: https://apple.co/3VDNusvListen to the full episode on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/62eCH9V6wsnQZqlnV6A2H7 

Hey, everyone. It's Andrea Canning, and we are talking Dateline. Today is a special treat. I'm joined by Dateline producer Lynn Keller, who worked with me on the episode we're going to be talking about. Hey, Lynn. Hey, Andrea. So, this episode is called The Man of Many Faces. If you haven't seen it, it's the episode right below this one on your Dateline podcast feed. So go there and listen to it or stream it on Peacock and then come back here. For this Talking Dateline, we have an extra clip from an interview with a pub owner in

Scotland who came face to face with the man of many faces. But to recap, hoping to evade law enforcement and a slew of criminal charges against him, an American man, Nicholas Alivertian, faked his own death and fled the country. Investigators and our Dateline team tracked down the elusive fugitive to Scotland before he was extradited back to the United States to face justice and to tell one more surprising story about who he really is. Okay, let's talk Dateline. Linda, a big question is, and because it's going back now, is how did we get, you and I both just became very interested in this story together. I feel like you emailed me a link to the

story. Okay. And we just kept talking about how crazy it was and then our affiliate in Rhode Island in in Providence, interviewed him and were like, oh, we want to do that too. And so I reached out to that reporter. He gave us Nicholas's contact or Arthur's contact. And then I set up a call for the three of us. It was you, me, and Arthur. And then do you remember too? I remember we were on a story, a completely different story and my phone rang and, and Arthur. And then do you remember too, I remember we were on a story, a completely different story and my phone rang and it was him. And so we had him on speaker and we just let him talk and talk and talk. He does talk. He talks and talks and talks a lot. Yeah. Not that

there's anything wrong with that, but he does talk a lot. This story, the con man stories, you and I really enjoy doing them. Not to say like we feel obviously very bad for the victims of these stories because it's awful what people are put through by con men. But at the same time, they are fascinating to look into them. We don't do them as much on Dateline. We usually stick to traditional murder investigations. Well, I think what happened is we got what we would consider a yellow light when we picked the story. Yes, that's what you always say. And so they basically said, well, you know, just go see what more you can find.

And so then once we booked the interview and you did that amazing, bizarre, crazy interview, that got our bosses hooked on like, let's see what else we can do. Yeah. And one of the things I wanted to say also about the victims is that it turns out usually that they want to have a voice, they want to have an opportunity to talk about it. I was going to say the same thing. In this case, now Nicholas Rossi is behind bars. He's pleaded not guilty to all of the criminal charges he's facing. But, you know, there was a time where he wasn't behind bars. And

these women said, look, we're speaking out because we want to prevent this from happening to anybody else. The victims of Nicholas alleged and some actual victims of Nicholas, they have a Facebook group where they communicate with each other and they keep track of what's happening with him. So they abandoned together. You know, this interview came about, I mean, I honestly didn't think he wouldn't show each other and they keep track of what's happening with him. So they abandoned together. This interview came about, I honestly didn't think he wouldn't show up. We disclose in our show that we did that interview remotely. I was in New York and Nicholas Arthur was

in Scotland. We did that interview in my basement. And lot of people said, like, how did you keep a straight face? And the reality is I didn't. Like, when he stands up and falls over in that kind of, dare I say, iconic moment, that triggered me to start laughing. It's one of those moments where you know when you're in school and you're not allowed to laugh and then you just, you laugh more. It was kind of those moments where you know when you're in school and you're not like you're not allowed to laugh and then you then you just you laugh more was kind of that. And so I lift up the my notes and I and Arthur are you laughing at me?

Are you laughing at me? And I put the notes in front of my face because I felt so bad. I was like no and I'm trying to make up excuses but there's no there's no excuses like it's just it's happening. I mean, that was an extremely unusual circumstance to have somebody who was obviously faking, try to do this demonstration. Yeah, and he would say he wasn't faking,

that he really has these issues from COVID, and he really truly was in the hospital for COVID. Well, then we found out later that when he goes back into the hospital for COVID. Well, then we found out later that when he goes back into the hospital, a female doctor and nurse told him that they were going to release him and he hops off the gurney and goes to attack them. So that whole thing of him trying to stand up, I mean, chances are it was completely an act. It was not real. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people would probably agree with that. So yeah, we're

trying to book another interview with him and we've been going back and forth and the jail has said no to allowing us physically inside the jail. So we were trying to do either a video interview over a video conference or a phone interview. And we've been just going back and forth, back and forth and did not get him to agree by the deadline of our updated story. Right. Because he did say that he's like, oh, I do want to do an in-person interview. That's what he told us. And we gave him the deadline and he never got back to us in time. He didn't get back to us in time.

S1 05.00 I would love to do an interview with him again. I mean, so I hope he accepts, you know, at some point to do another interview with us. S1 05.00 What would be your first question? Like, what would be your most burning question? S1 05.00 Oh, I don't know. That's a good question. I mean, certainly, you know, to see if he would reveal. So when he was in court this year in Utah, what was his line about, you know, he had to fake it because they were trying to kill him because of his work with Department of Children and Youth Services in Rhode Island that, you know, they were after him. So he had to like, essentially

what go into hiding? And he made that comment about if you, what was it if you give a mouse a piece of cheese or whatever? Break that down for us, Lynn. What did that mean? The prosecutor asked him, so who are these people who want to kill you? And he said, well, I don't want to give a mouse cheese. And basically he was saying that by saying their names, he was elevating the whole issue. So they closed the court and then I guess he revealed two names of people that we don't know. I would be curious to know how much his wife Miranda knew if he would tell us. Like when did she find out about his faked death? I would love to talk to her again too, Miranda.

I'd love to get her reaction to what is happening now. Because she said, remember, if anyone would know, I would, you know, if he was a bad person. I mean, and we, you and I were talking about this, like he's, on one hand, it's, there's elements of this that are kind of humorous, you know, the falling and the characters and all that. But there are real victims in this, some alleged, some victims. But I mean, he is accused of rape, violent rape. And that is no laughing matter.

And so he's kind of a weird dichotomy. It's one of those ones, you're sort of confused to how you should react to this man, right? And how you should talk about him. I've never really encountered someone like him. That reporter in Scotland that you interviewed, she said, I've been a journalist for 30 years. I've never met anyone like him. So it's across the board. We're all feeling the same.

And it goes to the title of the show, The Man of Many Faces, right? So maybe there is one man that you laugh at and then there's one man that you're scared of and, you know, it's... And one man you feel sorry for because he had a terrible upbringing, had a terrible childhood, you know, that's hard. Absolutely. When we get back, a bonus clip with a local pub owner who saw the con man from behind the bar. What do you think about his voice? Do you think that, like talking like that, do you think that that could be real, that that's a side effect of COVID? Or do you think that that's a put on voice and that the moment the cameras go away, he talks to Miranda normally? Yeah. So when he did the interview with

you and he was in Scotland, I believe that some of it was true and some of it was a little bit put on because he really did want to communicate his side to you. And sometimes you just couldn't understand him. And so you'd turn to Miranda and say, could you basically tell me what he just said? But that stuttering thing, that seemed to put on to me. But even today, he has that his voice has definitely been affected. And maybe that's from having oxygen going constantly that that could also affect your vocal cords. I don't know.

Yeah, it's, you know, when we talk about this man of many faces and, you know, he had to really keep up the accents and like, you know, his profession and all like different people that he spoke to, maybe he was different things. We have a clip with a pub owner we sat down with in Glasgow who shared an Arthur Knight story. Let's take a listen to what he had to say. So in the UK, we have a dish called coronation chicken, right, which is a standard thing for buffets, weddings, or bowling clubs and stuff like that. And we were having coronation chicken

for lunch one day and I had some extra wraps and I asked him if he wanted a Coronation Chicken wrap. We kind of like that and he was quite friendly, quite open. And he didn't know what Coronation Chicken was. So that was odd for you. Not at the time. At the time I'm just thinking, old money guy, I don't know what they have at the buffets. But Coronation Chicken is like sausage rolls or whatever at a buffet or sandwiches or whatever, you know, so that with hindsight, that's strange that he wouldn't know what that was, you know.

Most people from this area would know or Great Britain. Yeah, most people in the UK would be aware of what coordination chicken is. Yeah, he wasn't. So with hindsight, that was his mass slipping again. So you had his name slipped, his American accent would occasionally slip, and he didn't know what Coronation Chicken was. Correct. And the case is cracked with the pub owner. The case is cracked.

I actually looked up what Coronation Chicken is, and it's spicy with dried apricots and curry, cumin, turmeric, ginger, and other spices. That sounds kind of good actually. It does. And it was trivia here for all our listeners who saw the episode. Where was the other chicken mentioned? Quick, think about it, think about it. Champagne chicken.

Champagne chicken. I know. Champagne chicken. Miranda served it to Jane McSorley, the reporter. The reporter, yeah, the champagne chicken. So there you go, two chicken references in one dateline. Before we get to the social media comments and questions, you know, I wanted to point out just how strong Mary was, you know, for coming to Utah from Ohio to – she was planning to face him and we were told he was going to be in court and his name was even on the door in the, you know, the docket listing as in-person and then he was unfortunately over video. But, you know, good

for Mary for coming to face him. And unfortunately, Katherine Hekendorn would have come as well, but she had just given birth to a baby. So, like, I know you were impressed, Lynn, by Mary and her talking, approaching the prosecutor and saying, I'm here if you need anything, if there's a sentencing phase or anything like that. Lauren Henry Yeah, when we were sitting in the courtroom, I saw who the prosecutor was and they were talking to his attorney. And so I pointed him out to Mary, I said, you know, that's the prosecutor there. And within minutes, I see her get up, go over, and she introduced herself and the prosecutor took her information so that if there's a sentencing,

she would have a chance to talk to the judge, which is amazing. And I also remember when she was doing the interview with you this time, she said he messed with the wrong girl. And I thought, yes, he did. I love that. So many of his alleged victims, they were too afraid of him and they didn't pursue it. But she was not backing down. Well, she didn't back down. And then, of course, that's the whole reason that this international manhunt was sparked because of what she did. He had to register as a sex offender. He had to give up his DNA. And then the prosecutor in Utah, David Levitt, testing

the rape kits, there you go. There's a hit. There's a hit in Ohio, and that is all because of Mary. Yeah. And it was like nine or 10 years later that it happened. Right. So kudos to Mary, kudos to Catherine, who survived and is doing great. And also David Levitt, the former prosecutor, for wanting to test those rape kits on the podcast I do, Dateline True Crime Weekly, the other podcast. We hear about all these unt those rape kits on the podcast I do, Dateline True Crime Weekly, the other podcast, we hear about all these untested rape kits all over the country.

And it's sad because each one of those kits represents a woman who says that she was sexually assaulted. And why is it not having its due? Why are we not bringing these attackers to justice? So, you know, it certainly sparked one of the most unusual stories we've ever done, but also, you know, just to talk about untested rape kits. It is such a big deal in this country. And so hopefully, you know, that discussion will continue and more departments

around the country will, you know, pay more attention to that and take that seriously. country will pay more attention to that and take that seriously. If he did in fact commit these rape crimes in Utah, then sometimes being convicted for another person's crime can speak for all. If he is sentenced to prison, maybe it's not perfect justice, but we see these in datelines where the victims say, look, I just want him to be behind bars. I just want it so he can't hurt anyone else. And that's what I hope if he is convicted of these crimes, that that's what will give her some peace. All right. Up next, your questions from social media. We are back. And one of the biggest questions from social

media was why didn't the Scottish courts test Nicholas's DNA to confirm his identity? We heard that over and over again. Yes. And in this sentencing, the judge in Scotland, he actually sort of reprimanded the prosecution saying, you know, why was this not, why did they not test his DNA? It was, you know, it was a rhetorical thing. So the prosecutor didn't respond. So we don't know, we don't know what it is. I would imagine based on your interview with Arthur, is that he was making it so difficult, the whole DNA. And so they figured, let's just go with fingerprints and the tattoos. But they weren't able to use those until he attacked the doctor.

Because for that charge, they were able to take all that information and then that's how they presented it to the court. Well, even when we were in Scotland, remember, we went to the hearing and he was a no show because he was becoming increasingly difficult to get him out of the cell and like into the transport van or whatever to get him to the courthouse. That became a real problem. He's doing the same thing. And back to the DNA. So when Nicholas got back to the US, the prosecutor was finally able to test the DNA and it was in fact Nicholas.

It was a match, they say. Well, the investigator testified that they did test his DNA and it was in fact Nicholas Rossi, aliverdian. There were a lot of questions about the photo of Nicholas in the hospital while he's in a coma. Why was he wearing glasses if he was in a coma? Wow, I didn't even notice that, actually. I don't think he's in a coma at that moment. He's in dire straits, but I think he's out of the coma at that point.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Psyprofessor23 on Facebook said, wife Miranda obstructing justice and harboring a fugitive to name a few. Those are, okay, that's this user's allegation. She has not been convicted of a crime or charged with a crime. This user's husband said, she's Scotland's problem now. So the question is, will Miranda face any charges? I don't think so. I mean, they would have to prove that she knew that he was a fugitive, which we don't know that she knows that. Yeah, until she says it. I mean, yeah, I think it would be very hard to prosecute her. Plus Scotland, I feel like it's just like, you answered your problem.

They're kind of done with it. But answered your problem. They're kind of done with it. But it does actually open up that question of Miranda. We talked about it earlier. Did Miranda, what did she know, not know? As far as Nicholas's other identity, that he's an American, there's a good chance she probably did know if he was doing this on purpose to save his life, as he says, that people were after him, he probably would tell his wife, right? Or maybe that's what he said. He said, I'm pretending, not that I'm a fugitive from

justice, but I'm pretending to be somebody else because there are people who want to kill me. So then she would, she'd have no culpability there. Right. And again, we don't know this. We're speculating. We have absolutely no idea. This is just sort of based on covering the story for a long time together. Cynthia Perna Tulen on Facebook said about Nicholas, should have used his smarts for good and not the evil he unleashed on everyone. I thought that many times because there was a part of him that wanted to do that. He really did want to change the law because when he was in the foster care

system, he was in the system where they would put him in a different house every single night. Like, how was a child supposed to flourish in a situation like that? And that was one of the things he was trying to change. Yeah, it's a shame that he couldn't have taken all of his smarts and energy and just kept on that path. But he was the victim of abuse himself. So it was a challenge. It is a challenge. So the prosecutor in Utah has offered him a plea deal. He's been given some time to

think it over. If he decides to go to trial, there could be two trials. Lynn, do we know the maximum sentence he's facing? It's five to life. That's what it is. If you're convicted, it's five to life. So that every five years you'd have a chance to get out, I guess. So this plea deal sounds like a no brainer unless he wants to roll the dice with a judge or a jury. Well, we know that he has very strong convictions. So he'd have to admit that he raped these two women.

Nicole Sade Lynn, thank you so much for this kind of special edition of Talking Dateline. Lauren Henry Thanks for having me. Nicole Sade Yeah, it was fun talking with you since we've been on this journey together, this bizarre journey. So look forward to continuing to follow this story in 2025 as we see how it unfolds and what happens to Nicholas and getting another interview. Nicholas- I was thinking the same thing, another interview.

Are you listening? Are you listening? Thank you. That's it for Talking Dateline this week. Remember, if you have any questions for us about stories or about Dateline, you can reach us 24-7 on social media at Dateline NBC. And be sure to check out Josh's new original podcast, Deadly Mirage. Episodes one to five are out now and the final episode will be released Thursday for those who have been waiting to binge the series. Dateline

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