Daybreak - Gen Zs are powering astrology’s billion dollar glow up. Has science left the building?

Episode Date: July 25, 2024

The global astrology market today is worth nearly $13 billion. In India alone, the online astrology market is estimated around $100 million and is expected to grow ten times in the next five years or so. But this isn’t astrology as we’ve known it. In the last few years, astrology has had a facelift and it’s largely thanks to Gen Z. They have rediscovered it and turned it into a full blown cultural moment. Meme pages, Astro Twitter, mercury retrograde—astrology has become a pop culture phenomenon, not just here in India but across the world. New-age astrology apps like Co Star and Pattern give you the option of checking whether your “vibes” match with your friend or love interest.  It's like modern-day kundli matching. And Gen Zs are here for it and more. They’re also using astrology apps to check what stocks to put their money on, for their appraisal season—basically, anytime they have to make a decision, big or small.We wanted to know why the Gen Z, a generation that’s been recognised for its hyper-awareness about things like climate change, politics, governance is embracing astrology so passionately despite all of its very well documented flaws as a pseudoscience. Also, how are astrology app makers are responding to this trend?To find out, we spoke to two Gen Zs—Misha Verma, a 22 year-old 2D animator from Bengaluru and Khushi Singh, a 23 year-old UI/UX designer from New Delhi who part times as a tarot reader, the founder of an AI-powered astrology app called Melooha, Vikram Labhe, and Nakul Shenoy, a mentalist based out of Bengaluru.Tune in!Daybreak is produced from the newsroom of The Ken, India’s first subscriber-only business news platform. Subscribe for more exclusive, deeply-reported, and analytical business stories.

Hi, this is Rohan Dharma Kumar. If you've heard any of the Ken's podcasts, you've probably heard me, my interruptions, my analogies and my contrarian takes on most topics. And you might rightly be wondering why am I interrupting this episode too. It's for a special announcement. For the last few months, I and Sita Raman Ganeshan, my colleague and the Ken's deputy editor, have been working on an ambitious new podcast. It's called Intermission. We want to tell the secret sauce stories of India's greatest companies. Stories of how they were born, how they fought to survive, how they build their organizations and culture,

how they manage to innovate and thrive over decades, and most importantly, how they're poised today. To do that, Sita and I have been reading books, poring over reports, going through financial statements, digging up archives, and talking to dozens of people. And if that wasn't enough, we also decided to throw in video into the mix. Yes, you heard that right. Intermission has also had to find its footing in the world of multi-camera shoots in professional studios, laborious editing, and extensive post-production. Sita and I are still reeling from the intensity of our first studio recording. Intermission launches on March 23rd. To get an alert as soon as we release our first episode,

please follow intermission on Spotify and Apple Podcasts or subscribe to the Ken's YouTube channel. You can find all of the links at the ken.com slash I am. With that, back to your episode. I've always been a person who likes to question everything. So astrology, I mean, I didn't really know anything about it, right? I was like, I didn't, I wasn't educated about it as. I am right now. So I was like, okay, it sounds very baseless and it sounds like superstition and all that.

Meet Kushi Singh Koper, a 23-year-old from New Delhi. During the day, Kushi is a freelance UI-UX designer. But it is her side hustle at the moment that really piqued our interest. I offer tarot readings on my Instagram page and I also post astrology updates there from time to time. So how did someone like Hushie? A self-proclaimed astrology skeptic turn into a believer. Wait, scratch that. Not just a believer, a full-blown astrology professional.

Okay, so in 2019, I actually stumbled upon Astro Twitter. It's like a community, right? It's full of astrology and tarot enthusiasts. It's a lot of spiritualism. It's tarot readers, astrologers. So it's basically a space on the internet where people are having these conversations and I also started my journey over there.

The global astrology market today is worth nearly $13 billion. In India alone, the online astrology market is estimated around $100 million and is expected to grow tenfold in the next time. five to six years. Which kind of explains why it is hard to avoid astrology apps on the internet these days. They're popping up left, right and centre. But it isn't astrology in the way that we have known it.

You know, the kind that a lot of us grew up seeing. Like Bejan Darrowala's columns in the newspaper, or those barbers with their turbans and their hands covered in rings waving some peacock feather duster thing at you, telling you that your future looks bleak. Right. But in the last few years, astrology has had a facelift. And that's largely because of people like Khushi, Gen Z.

They have rediscovered astrology and turned it into a full-blown cultural moment. So meme pages, astro-twitter, Mercury retrograde. Astrology has become a pop culture phenomenon, not just here in India, but also across the world. If you've not been able to drive home the fact that astrology is now having, its moment around the world. Listen to this. What's up everyone? Food on the loose here. We're outside, early mercy.

We got here. They're Mercury retrograde with McDonald's. Let's get it. Free food. Free merch. Yep. Even McDonald's jumped onto the trend. About two years ago,

it offered customers free food because of Mercury Retrograde, whatever that means. And then there are New Age astrology apps like Kostar and Pattern, which give you the option of checking whether your vibes match with your friend or love interest. It's literally like modern day kundly matching.

And guess what? Gen Zies are here for it. They're also using astrology apps to check what stocks to put their money on for their appraisal season. Basically, any time they have to make a decision, big or small. It's crazy. Okay, we know we sound like two juggie aunties

going into this episode, but really, that's not the nudgey aunties. intention. It is in judgment. It is skepticism and, well, a bit of curiosity. We wanted to know why the Gen Z, a generation that has been recognized for its hyper awareness about things like climate change, politics, governance, you name it, is embracing astrology so passionately, despite all of its very well-documented flaws. And also how astrology app makers are responding to this trend. Hello and welcome to another special episode of daybreak.

I'm Snigda and I'm Rahil and every week we come together to talk about something in business and tech that interests the both of us. And it won't just be us. Depending on what we're talking about, we will bring in a bunch of really interesting people onto the podcast. In today's episode, we are joined by two genzies, the founder of an AI powered astrology app and a mentalist. There's a sentence I never thought I'd say.

Crazy right? We know, stick around, you are not going to want to miss this one. To start with, Rahil and I spoke to two genzies, Khushy, whom you just heard a little while ago, and Misha, a 22-year-old 2D animator and illustrator based in Bangalore. Now, they happen to be friends, and what they really bond over is astrology. We wanted to know what drew them to astrology in the first place. You see, like Khushy, Misha too said she was a skeptic, until she wasn't.

Both of them took to astrology when they were going through a phase where they just felt, well, lost and alone. They were figuring out who they were. I was going through a time in my life where I was a little lost, right? So it really, astrology especially really helped me to make a lot of sense of what was happening around me, inside me. So it just, I guess it was like serendipity. So for Kushi, astrology is a tool for introspection and personal growth. For Misha, meanwhile, astrology apps like Pattern help her deal with daily anxieties. Here is how Gen Z's like her use these apps.

I don't take out time specifically in my routine for using the apps, but rather it sends you notifications and, you know, something clicked. Sometimes you're going through a rough patch and you feel like you hit a dead end. Those are times you would, you know, refer to the app on what pattern or timing is going on or Google it or reach for your cards. And the way these apps are designed, especially the way pattern is designed is it sends you notifications at those like moments or those kind of days when you start a new cycle or something in the world is changing. So it's one of those things where you feel like, okay, I'm hitting a rough patch. everything feels a little screwy, but maybe there is a reason

this is happening or maybe something is changing or there is some transition period. So, from what we're able to understand, for most Gen Zs, astrology is more like a source of comfort. But we still have to ask them why a generation as hyper-aware

as theirs, that has seen the whole world as they know it being shaped by some of the greatest innovations in science and technology, that has survived the pandemic thanks to science, how are they willing to accept something that's considered a pseudoscience at best? Do believe in science? At the same time, it's the same thing of faith.

For us, faith was very intertied with religion and was very, like, repressive in certain ways or very specific to a certain set of beliefs. There wasn't wiggle room is what I think. Whereas kind of with astrology, I don't see it as, like I said, I don't use it. it for decisions. I don't see it as a scientific methodology. I just see it as sort of like your own personal faith practice. But there is an interesting distinction that both Misha and Khushi make when it comes to astrology. The apps they say are a fun way for them to engage with their friends. But they won't take AI predictions too seriously. If they are at a crossroads or they need help

during a tough phase in their lives, they will go straight to the professionals. people are really looking for direction or really looking for, what do you say, decisions, things like that kind of information, then it is usually better to engage with a person who's experienced in the field as compared to having an AI generated result. So like I had said in the beginning, my usage of pattern has usually been for fun purposes and just like a. fun way to, you know, oh, let's check this out. Whereas when I am looking for direction, then I've either reached out to her personally or I've done my own entire readings.

Talking of using astrology apps for fun, we actually found someone who built an astrology app here in India, but for the exact opposite purpose. His life goal is to make astrology both widely accessible and credible. And here's where it gets interesting. There are no real astrologers giving out these consultations. Like Kostar and Pattern, it is a 100% AI-driven app. In fact, he pitched the beta version of his app on the last season of Shark Tank.

And now the final version of his app is out and it already has nearly 100,000 downloads. But he says that this app is different from any other AI powered app out there. To find out more, stay tuned. I'm Vikram Labhe. I'm the founder and CEO of Malua. this is an astrology as a service startup. Lovely. So, Vikram, let's begin with the most important question. Do you believe in astrology?

Totally. Yes. And I was story around that. Okay. You know, almost 30 years back when I was in my engineering, you know, I was a very curious person and would go to different astrologers, just out of curiosity. I didn't know if this is real or not.

and I would be honest, 90% of the times what the astrologers told me never happened in that period. But through that journey, just because of curiosity, I would keep looking for the next one. What I found out is there are very small pool of really talented astrologers. I was very lucky I found those. And whatever they told always happened. So I saw a pattern that if you go to an astrologer that now you've started to trust, whatever they say always happens. So I could distinguish between a very large pool of mediocre astrologers and a really high-quality astrology. So if you really know the subject, then you can really help the person in terms of guiding what to do, what not to do.

And so I don't know how and when this curiosity turned into belief and belief turned into need. So I'm more than a believer, I would call it. Wow. Okay. So, you know, you talk about high quality astrology. Your app, Malouha, offers astrology in a very interesting way. You know, you don't have physical astrologers present who are giving you consultations. It's an AI-powered app that offers hyper-personalized, you know, predictions, consultations, advice. Can you tell us how Malouha works and what it is actually?

Sure. Yeah, this is very different from any astrology app that exist around the world at this time. I can safely say that. Our focus is to solve the root of the problem that exists today in astrology. And the root of the problem is this is an unregulated service. And what I mean by that is if you have an illness, you go to a doctor. and that doctor is at least a MBBS. Whereas if you go to astrologer, there is nothing like that.

Today, even I can read three books and call myself an astrologer. Right, right. But can I ask you a counter question? Sure. Like, you know, how can you regulate something that is not considered a complete science? I'm not saying we can regulate it, but you can make it credible is our effort. So our effort is to make it. make it credible.

Now, because of being unregulated, the quality of astrologers is not in anybody's control. And because the demand is so high, right, people are turning into astrology as their profession. When, you know, when there is a need, let's say, right? So the approach we have taken in building Meluha is to address that root of the credibility problem. And how do you do that? Yeah. So I personally actually, before I started Malwaha, read a few books on astrology, as well as saw a lot of YouTube videos to convince myself that this is really mathematics. This is algorithms.

This can really be built using software. Once I was convinced and I have experience building SaaS products in the past, right? I approach the astrologist I trust to be part of this journey, right? So they are the domain experts in the company. they are the ones who give us the rules, right? And then we have a very high-quality software engineering team, including generative AI team, who convert those rules into IPs,

and then wrap it up with what we call an orchestration layer, which means which is like a question, let's say. Right? Okay. Can you give us an example? So let's say if someone wants to ask a question, when will I get married? Yeah.

Very most commonly ask question. When will I get married? So we break that question down into multiple questions, like when. You know, so you have to answer time. Right. Will. So it's in future, right? Marriage, right? Okay.

So we break it down into multiple questions. Then these multiple questions, right, you know, are used to map it to the right set of IPs that we have built. Okay. And then, you know, we have the users personal details, date of birthplace or time of birth. So based on that, the answer gets computed. The computation is in a raw form like, you know, maybe October 2024 is the answer when will I get married?

The answer is only October 24, right? And then we have a separate set of, you know, Gen. Gen. A.I techniques where we take that and we convert it into a human readable as well as a answer that a human astrologer would tell. So, that's the whole journey, basically. So, Vikram, if I were to hypothetically feed my birth time, my birthplace into chat GPT, for instance, and I were to say, give me, based on that information, give me a prediction of who I'm going to marry and when I'm going to get married, would it not throw up similar responses?

Absolutely. It would throw up something, but not similar. Okay. The difference is credibility. You ask that question 10 times in 10 days and compare the answers. Completely different. you would know that it's randomly going into some corpus and referencing it and picking up. So every time it is, you know, so it, chat GPD does not have the prediction engine that we have

built in-house, which consists of more than 200 IPs, right? And that's the brain of Melua. And is it similar to say an app like Kostar or pattern which also provides AI powered astrology solutions? Is it, is it similar to that? Does it work similarly? Neither of them claim to be a credible source of guidance. CoStar is more a compatibility focused app. And if you look at the questions, they have a limited set of questions. If you look at the answers, they are feel good answers, right? No definitive answer.

You cannot ask when will I get married on CoStar. Same with pattern. They are great apps, but their purpose is different. So, Vikram, a lot of the success of your app of Malouha, right, depends on accuracy. How do you find out? Excellent question, right. So we have built the ability for the user to look at what questions they have been asking and what answers we have been giving. So we save this in their history.

Okay. So if someone asked a question, when will I get married? And Meluha said September 2024, the answer is going to be saved in the history. The user can, you know, when the time is passed, either they can go back to the history,

look at what was said, did it happen, and give us feedback, or we actively prompt the user, hey, you had asked this question, did it come true or not? I see. And currently we are running at 93% positive feedback. Wow, that's amazing.

That's amazing. So, you know, Vikram, we live in a world where we want to look at our problems, you know, all kinds of problems, with a scientific approach, right? You know, because usually that is the foolproof solution to most of our problems. Where does astrology fit into this? Like, you know, my question is, what are you trying to solve with Malouha? Yeah. So, you know what? The basic thing that, yeah, so the, you know, seeking guidance, I believe.

is a basic human need. You analyze your days, you know, how many times in a day you have simple, simple questions which you know, discuss with either your colleagues, your friends, your family members. Sometimes it could be a simple thing like

you have these three job offers, which one do I take? You know, I'm not feeling good which doctor should I consult. Like there are various things, right? And some of them are bigger problems. Correct. Right?

A lot of times they are not problems, but they are, You know, there are opportunities, multiple opportunities, and you need clarity. So we are used to, as human beings, seeking guidance for small things as well as big things every day. You know, we believe you would continue to go to the people you trust, whether it is friends, family, colleague. We are giving them an additional, credible, scientific source for the same guidance. So actually, Vikram, I have a question there for you as a founder. Okay, this isn't your first rodeo.

You built a bunch of successful businesses in the past as well. Of course, we know that astrology is a passion of yours in particular. But where do you draw that line personally, right? Because one would assume that as the world progresses, as education levels go up, there's also an increase in skepticism. And like, again, like what Snickda said, right? Like that scientific approach, quote unquote. So as kind of with that, there's also a certain amount of skepticism and cynicism around things like astrology.

For a lot of us, it's something that a lot of people may reject completely as regressive. Those are opinions that people have. As a startup founder, why do you believe that it's a viable business proposition? Yeah, I think fantastic question again, right? You know, at least 80% of the people I speak to when I tell them, what am I building? Their question is, Vikram, what are you doing? Yeah. Right?

So, yes, skepticism is. you know, astrology has been wrapped with skepticism. But to be honest, that is a big reason for me to do this. Because I have personally benefited so much, right? So I know the value it can bring to humans if you have access to the right credible source to seek this guidance, right? So that actually motivates me, I would say,

why I should be building this. So, you know, Vikram, what you're doing is so important. interesting, right? Because it's something that we've been talking about while we were working on this episode, doing our research. It's kind of like astrology has gotten this massive, like, AI-powered facelift in many ways. It's this complete makeover that's happened. And a lot of it, we believe, correct us, if I're wrong, is driven by younger people getting interested in astrology. And we're talking about Gen Z's in particular, right? It's become this massive, like, cultural phenomenon. It's not a counterculture anymore because you have McDonald's offering things. like a Mercury retrograde discount and things like that. I didn't know about this. Yeah, it's crazy. So I'm curious to know with Meluha,

have you noticed that shift in, you know, your user base? Have you noticed a lot of young people using the app? And how are they engaging with the app? You're totally, totally surprised by, you know, by the age group, which is using Meluha the most at this time. Yeah. Yeah, Gen Z is definitely top. and by miles.

Yeah, some of the, I mean, the most commonly asked questions are around relationship and they are about pre-marriage and about when will I get married. So, like, you know. So even Genji is concerned about marriage. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So love and marriage are the most commonly asked questions, right?

Almost 70% of the questions fall in that bucket. Interesting. Yeah. So very interesting insights we have at this time. you know, when we were building Melhua and when I remember even when I was raising the angel round, right? Most of the investors actually said that, you know, you're probably the target age group is like 40 plus. Right. And now they are totally blown by seeing that. Did you go in knowing that this would happen?

No, we, no, we didn't want to make any assumptions about who's the target or a, or go. good group to go after. What we, our research showed that there is a need in every age group, in every segment. You know, you cannot, you cannot really bucketize

the situation a person can be in. Let's say a 70 year old can be healthy. And a 20 year old can also have a health need. Let's say. But Vikram, because, you know, such a big segment of your users, are from Gen Z.

Can you tell us some features in Meluha that you've specifically designed for them? To be honest, we haven't specifically designed for any age group. So then is there a feature that they love that you see Gen Z loving? Yeah. So our hero feature is ask a question.

We have made it super simple for anyone, including my mother, who is an 80-year-old, to be able to use Meluha. That has been, user delight has been our top value from day one, right? You should be irrespective of the age group, irrespective of the background from a, you know, cultural perspective, right? Whether you can speak English or not, whether you are from tier one or tier three.

You should be able to very quickly find out what is the hero feature and how can I use it, right? Our hero feature is you type a question in the language of your choice and in less than one minute. Our goal is less than 30 seconds, and several of the questions get answered in less than 30 seconds. So in less than a minute, you will get the answer. And that is what is making it viral. So do you believe that, do you think Gen Z's are using your app in particular and other apps, you know, AI-powered astrology apps more,

because they are perhaps more open to that kind of intermingling of technology and astrology? Do you think that older people actually actively, strive, you know, are looking for physical, real, old-fashioned astrology, like real people? Do you think that is the case? So, you know, Gen Z's in general, I would say, are faster to adopt to new technologies. So I'm sure that is contributing to high number of them using Meluha at this time, right? However, for the rest, you know, the challenge is to find the credible astrologer, right? The accessibility also is a challenge, right?

You may hear about Aslajur, but they may be in tier two or tier three time. And they are in their comfort zone. They have enough customers, so they are booked. So they are not doing online consultation, most of them, right? So for us, the goal is to make sure we educate them on how Meluha can help them. And I'm sure we would see more usage from them as well. Got it. There's also, you know, so we were trying out the app.

Because we knew that you were coming in. We wanted to see what you see where it was like. And now it's like just force of habit for the last couple of days. I've been opening it and checking it in the morning to see what's going on, what my day is going to look like. But when we were kind of exploring the app, we saw Vani. I'm assuming that's the Ask Me Anything feature. It's called it's called Vani where you can feed in a question.

And for the payment, you pay money and you get, we were curious to know if at our such a large proportion of Genzi is using the app. Is monetizing features a challenge for you as a, you know, as a founder? Is that a challenge for you that you have to tackle on a day to day? So, again, a fantastic question. And, you know, so we officially started, you know, going out in the market third of June. So I have only one and a half month of data. But monetization is not an issue.

Even repeat customers is not an issue. In one and a half month, we have more than 50% repeat business. And some of the repeat business, they have bought a questions bundle more than 15 times. Wow. So can you explain the business model a little bit for us? Sure. So we, as I said, our hero feature is ask a question. So there are two ways you can earn questions.

Okay. One is you can, let's say, refer a friend or a family member or add a family member to your group, right? And you get free questions. But there is a finite number of people you can add that way. And the other feature is, other way is you can buy a bundle of questions. So you can buy a silver pack which is five questions, gold which is 10 questions. And diamond, which is 20 questions. Okay.

So that's our hero product. then we also have another product which is called reports. Now, this is meant for people who are in a situation and a situation requires several questions to be answered. And a lot of times people don't even know what to ask. And a lot of times answer to the first question leads to the next question. So to be able to address those situations, we have offloaded the users from even thinking what to ask.

So you go to reports and, you know, right now we have limited reports out there, but very quickly we are going to have other reports as well, like relationship, career, education, business, finance, wealth, various other things, right? So if you want to, you know, have insights for, let's say, next one year for your health, you buy a health report. And it would analyze your kundi and tell you not just for today, but for next 12 months, what are the things you need to look out for? So you can again buy a bundle of reports, you know, one, three, five. So those are the two product offerings we currently have. Right. So, you know, Vikram, we've been speaking to a lot of Genzi folks who use astrology apps, right?

Like a lot of them use Paton and Kostar. And something that, you know, we understood. Like, one of the main things that drives them to use these apps is anxiety, you know, like anxiety about identity, anxiety. anxiety about fitting in, you know, and also it's like a source of comfort, like a daily source of comfort, you know. How do you, as a business owner, keep yourself from tapping into that anxiety

because it's a very slippery slope, right? Like, it's a question of ethics. Yeah, so, you know, we are very clear. We are not selling fear. None of our campaigns, we haven't done any campaigns yet, right? would be focused on fear that, hey, you have to do this, otherwise this will happen. Yeah. We are not going to be doing that, right?

We want to be the positive source of credible guidance, right? Yes, stress, anxiety, you know, mental health in general, right? It's becoming a big issue, right? Gen Z is definitely, right? And we want to be making sure that we give them all. insights into how they can manage themselves better. Based on what their stars are aligned, as a result, what are the things they need to take care of?

So it's almost a bit like therapy, right? Counseling, in a way. So that's a huge responsibility, no? 100%. It's a huge responsibility. And, you know, if I have to pick one thing that gives me sleepless nights, it's that responsibility. Because we want to be known for a credible source of guidance.

right? Business would follow because if we are a credible source of guidance, business would follow. Speaking of business in the last leg of our quest, we came across someone

who literally makes it his business to tell you what you're thinking. Like an astrologer sometimes, he may even predict your future. But he's not an astrologer. But the most important distinction is that he does it

purely for entertainment. And the reason why we brought him on to the podcast is because nobody can understand the psychology behind astrology in the way that he can. Hang on, it's all going to make sense in a few seconds. I am Nakul Shinaai, I'm based in Bangal and I make a living calling myself the mind reader. In a sense, I'm a mentalist and magician. So I do corporate shows and workshops around India and abroad.

Right. And what does a mentalist do? Reads people's minds. Isn't that why I call myself the mind? mind rate. So what does a mentalist do? So you, everybody understands what a magician does, right? A magician deals with the impossible. Like a magician would produce something from nothing or would take perhaps a coin or even a human or a building and vanish it, right? A mentalist doesn't do the impossible. The mentalist does the improbable, which is in the territory of could that really be possible? Right?

You know, a lot of what you said just now, you know, you're able to read people's mind, or able to tell them what they're thinking very often. You're able to, in some cases, make them feel like, you know, what's going to happen to them in the field? It kind of sounds a little bit like what an astrologer does, right? It does.

Early mentalists started because they saw mediums doing exactly this. And the reason people became mentalists and not mediums or astrologers in that sense was to draw the difference between trying to perhaps fool people versus doing it for entertainment. So I think what really clarifies here is that when somebody calls themselves a mentalist and gets on stage and people are going to come and buy tickets to watch this performance, ideally it's entertainment. It is in make-believe, right? Even if you may actually go back believing I have powers, despite me telling you I don't, that's all very interesting.

But, yeah, so there is a lot of commonality between not just astrologers, but psychics, mediums, godman, a lot of these con artists in a sense. Are you calling yourself a con artist? If I was cheating people with my craft and I'm very capable of, much better than most of the others, I would be a con man. But because I do not do any kind of personal consulting. I'm very clear what I do is only for entertainment. and everything I do is only on stage. So even if I'm reading people's minds, it's in that construct of a stage,

which is theatrised, right? I think I cannot necessarily be called a convent. All right. So, Nakul, let's just dive right in, right, into the psychology of all of this, right? So we know a lot of astrology is dependent on a confirmation bias, right? That is why we have so many believers, right?

What we were talking about earlier. How much of this, confirmation bias do you use as a mentalist? A lot of what I do is based on body language, right? Either being able to read people's body language or being able to influence them, right? And if you really look back into the history of astrology and other mediums, it was all in person. So a lot of this is actually being able to read a person in front of you, right? So it's not just confirmation bias, right?

It's a lot of factors. But yes, confirmation bias also plays a lot of a big role because in simple, as humans, we want to believe. Right? Yeah. We want to believe. And what we are looking for is a larger meaning to life. Yes.

And the classic thing is about coincidences, right? We've all gone through experience where we're thinking of somebody. And that very moment, let's say your phone rang. I hear like, this is like the most fascinating thing or even better. You're walking the street, let's say, Brigade Road or somewhere. And you just thought of somebody and that person was in front of you, right? And that's not confirmation bias. But what's really happening is you are, your mind is always thinking with or without you knowing.

And so what you latch on to are only the success stories. So, so Nakul, like what you do is you, in your show. right, you basically take this confirmation bias to the next level, right? Which you were earlier talking to us about when we were speaking on the phone. You talked about this particular term, the Barnum effect. Yes, so speaking of confirmation bias, they're not specific again about confirmation bias, but why do people latch on to things that may be quite generic,

but think that it's very specific to them. A research was done years back at MIT, if I'm right, that studied something called Barnum statements, right? Now, Barnum statements were essentially a group of statements, psychological statements, right, which was perhaps something like you are a very strong-willed and an outgoing person, but at times you tend to doubt yourself

and like to remain by yourself. Now, if I gave you a reading like that and asked you, out of scale of 1 to 10, how accurate was I? Right? It's very accurate. Very accurate. Now what? Now, the thing is, most people who heard this will find that to be quite accurate.

Simply because what I really did there is make a statement and say the exact opposite in the second part of it. The first part I said, you are strong willed, while in the second part I said you tend to doubt yourself. Right? The first part I said you are an extrovert And the second part I said at times You like to be by yourself Now who is not Right

This is exactly what came up On your other app that you downloaded right Like today's prediction was something You need to help people You should help people today I'm like shouldn't I help people every day What does that mean? Okay so I'll let you in on a secret

Right as a stage performer Say good things about people They will always find agreement Now I might be the most most, I don't really believe in the extrovert, introvert philosophy. But let's say I am a person who just stays by myself, does not like to meet people, etc, etc. But when I am told you are open to ideas, you like to explore new things, etc., etc.

It's a positive. And very few of us will disagree with the positive. And most of these app kind of or computer generated, I'd write this on chat, GPT, saying just give me a reading, you know? And other than the disclaimers, the rest of it was so spot on. Really?

Just that I knew Banam statements really well and I could spot them. And I think more than anything, you want to feel validated by someone else, right? Someone outside of yourself. There may be so many things that you think about yourself. But the bottom line is no one really knows who they are. I don't know if you've seen Astro Talk ever. or like actually used it ever.

What happens is you feed in something. You have like a minute for, you talk to an astrologer for one minute or five minutes or something for free and you're asking a bunch of questions, general questions. The five minute lapse is just when you ask the most important question,

just when they're going to be, it'll say so-and-so is typing, typing, typing, and then your time has lapsed. And then constant, you're just stuck, like, sucked into this never-ending, like one water. Pay as you go. Yeah. So what you're talking there is very clearly,

how it can be manipulated. But actually imagine Instagram and what it's doing to us. I was off Instagram all these years for whatever reasons. And recently just went in to check my account and posted one or two photographs.

Last five days, I'm going there every single day. More importantly, I can't seem to stop watching reels. And I'm not somebody who's ever watched Reels. On YouTube, I've disabled it. On Facebook, I don't go. So it's so addictive, which means they have cracked something.

They have cracked human behavior. Now, that knowledge, when applied to a app like this, well, my biggest fear is that. And the whole point you were talking about earlier, about belief, right? I said this earlier also in an interview. We all have a right to belief, right? You can, each of us can believe whatever we want, whether there's a God, there's no God, whether this is, you know, I want to believe in spirituality, rationalism, whatever it is. But along with that fundamental right, I believe we also have a fundamental right not to be fooled.

Okay, so we've heard from the Gen Z's themselves, from the founder of Meluha and Astrology app and a mentalist. We've covered the arc from skepticism to belief and somewhat back to skepticism. And in the end, here's what we've understood. From our conversation with Mishan Khushi, we learned that just because the Gen Z has taken on to astrology does not mean that they do not believe. even science. It's not black and white like that. Online astrology is more like a source of daily comfort and also finding your community, which is really important. It's not like the entire Gen Z is suddenly basing all their important life decisions based on these astrology apps. On the business side of things, astrology app makers in India are recognising, often to their

surprise, that Gen Z is an important demographic that they just can't afford to overlook. Also, if not all, at least some of them understand that because Genzi's love for astrology is mostly driven by anxiety and also for personal growth, it is a huge responsibility. But in the end, like Nackel said, any time when technology and anxiety come anywhere close, you cannot go in with your eyes wide shut. Daybreak is produced from the newsroom of the Ken India's first subscriber-focused business news platform. What you're listening to is just a small sample of our subscribe-only offerings. A full subscription unlocks daily long-form feature stories, newsletters and podcast extras.

Head to the ken.com and click on the red subscribe button on the top of the Ken website. Today's episode was hosted and produced by Rahal Philipos and I Sinkda Sharma and it was edited by Rajiv Sien. Also a huge shout-out to Aditi and Kavipriya and the rest of our fantastic design team here at the Kemp. for the amazing artwork that they make for every Friday special episode of Daybreak.