Daybreak - Why we date, marry, or breakup with Swiggy Instamart, Blinkit, Zepto & BigBasket

Episode Date: May 30, 2024

In today’s special Friday episode, The Ken’s Praveen Gopal Krishnan (aka PGK) joins hosts Snigdha and Rahel to talk about India’s complicated relationship with 10 minute delivery apps. They talk about how these apps are shaping our economy and society at large, and more importantly how we, as users, are shaping them.Why do we pick a particular app, what makes us switch to another one and what makes us abandon them all together?PGK asked his readers just that in a recent survey he carried out in his weekly newsletter, The Nutgraf. You can check it out here.You can also check out the Bangalore floods edition Snigdha mentioned, here.Listen to Kabir Biswas talk about Dunzo and the quick delivery business on First Principles.If you're curious about the time everyone except Zepto assumed quick commerce was dying, click here.P.S Tell us what you thought of this episode. a) Was the subject interesting enough for you? b) Did you enjoy the conversation? You can write to us at [e-mail] is produced from the newsroom of The Ken, India’s first subscriber-only business news platform. Subscribe for more exclusive, deeply-reported, and analytical business stories.

Hi, this is Rohan Dharma Kumar. If you've heard any of the Ken's podcasts, you've probably heard me, my interruptions, my analogies, and my contrarian takes on most topics. And you might rightly be wondering why am I interrupting this episode too. It's for a special announcement. For the last few months, I and Sita Raman Ganesh, my colleague and the Ken's deputy editor, have been working on an ambitious new podcast. It's called Intermission.

We want to tell the secret sauce stories of India's greatest companies. Stories of how they were born, how they fought to survive, how they build their organizations and culture, how they manage to innovate and thrive over decades, and most importantly, how they're poised today. To do that, Sita and I have been reading books, poring over reports, going through financial statements, digging up archives, and talking to dozens of people. And if that wasn't enough, we also decided to throw in video into the mix. Yes, you heard that right. Intermission has also had to find its footing in the world of multi-camera shoots in professional studios, laborious editing, and extensive post-production.

Sita and I are still reeling from the intensity of our first studio recording. Intermission launches on March 23rd. To get an alert as soon as we release our first episode, please follow Intermission on Spotify and Apple Podcasts or subscribe to the Ken's YouTube channel. You can find all of the links at the ken.com slash I am. With that, back to your episode. Hello and welcome to our Friday special episode of Daybreak.

I'm Rahil and I'm Snigda. And this is that one episode where Snigda and I take a little bit of a break from regular programming. We're going to talk about things that interesting. the both of us. Yes. You can think of this episode as our, thank God, it's Friday version of daybreak. So, you know, if you're expecting a short, crisp 10-minute story about business, this is not that episode.

No, this isn't that episode, but this is an episode that's Nickda and I have been really excited about. We're going to be talking about something that we've spoken quite extensively about on this show. We're going to talk about something that is shaping our daily lives, our economies, and in many ways, it's shaping society at large. We're talking about 10-minute delivery apps. So Swiggy Instamart, Zepto, Blinket, Big Basket, you know all of them.

But we aren't here to talk about how these businesses were built or how they run. We want to talk about our relationships with them as users. And I mean that literally. Are you committed to Swiggy Instamart? Or are you committed to Blinket? Yes. Or are you cheating on Swiggy with Blinket?

Or have you dumped Swiggy for Big Basket? The point is, all these apps are a little bit like partners that you've known through your life. Yes. So this episode is all about relationships. I can almost hear our listeners go like, oh my God, is Daybreak becoming like a cis version of a bro podcast or something? Yeah, I can already imagine that there'll be a couple comments saying, oh, two women talking about relationships? How shocking. But jokes aside, what we're interested in is how we are shaping these apps.

Yes. And we are also very excited today because we have our in-house celebrity colleague, PGK in the studio, to tell us all about it. And PGK, I mean, Praveen Gopalakrishnan, we call him that at the ken. He is the author of our most popular newsletter called The Nutgrave that essentially helps you to understand businesses in India in a way that you'll never forget. And PGK takes that part very seriously and I can say this as a reader of Nutgrave myself. The way he explains things,

the kind of examples he uses, his analogies, you know, the way he makes you look at businesses from a completely different, very refreshing perspective is probably why he has thousands of people waiting every Saturday for the audition to come out. I mean, you know, there have been times where the edition went out a couple of minutes late and our internal Slack channel

our social media just goes like Ting Ting Ting Ting where is the edition we are waiting So PGK lately has been obsessed with quick commerce And it's literally become like his thing this year Okay and we also should mention that in his free time PGK moonlights as the Kent's chief operating officer Right so today we are holding our CEO hostage in our studio because he has written this tomb of an edition of NutGraf on our relationship with these apps.

And it is based on a very interesting survey. Hi, PGK. Hi, Snikda and hi, hi, Rahil. How are you doing? I'm fine, thank you. I'm really, really excited to be here. I'm very excited particularly by what daybreak is doing. It's fantastic.

And I particularly never miss Daybreak Fridays. already, we have a fan, Rahil. Yeah. In fact, I don't miss it so much that I decided that I have to come here in order to be a part of it. Yeah, actually, Peechke, I wanted to ask you, so how does it feel to come on an all-women podcast? Like, is it a break from your bro podcast? I actually don't go to too many podcasts, but let me just say that it is so amazing and so incredible to find myself in a podcast that's hosted by two wonderful women. And we are talking about business and tech every day.

And every week. Yes. Thank you so much, PGK. PGK, tell us why did you do the survey? Like, what made you flip the lens towards users? Okay. So, there is some background here. So the background here is that over this year in 2024,

I have been obsessed with 10-minute deliveries. And the reason why I've been obsessed with 10-minute deliveries was because, quite frankly, it has taken me by surprise on how, crazy and resilient it has been. So just for context, all across the world, 10 minute groceries actually came up after like 2021. And they actually started in Turkey. They went to Europe.

They went to US. And all of these crazy companies started delivering things to you in like 10 to 15 minutes. And people said, this is never going to last. This is just one crazy thing that's happened as a result of cheap money. And they were right. Because 10 minute delivery has collapsed all across the world. Except in India. And India also went through that phase

where they had a lot of 10 minute deliveries coming in and I was actually very dismissive about the whole thing. I remember you did a whole addition on Nutgrave saying that, you know, is it going to stay or is it like the day has gone for 10 minute delivery apps? Very luckily I wasn't so strong

where I said that this whole thing is nonsense but I came close. And I said, well, this thing is not going to last for long but it's fun, it's here. Let's all have fun while it's there. And so this went on until the end of the year. And then suddenly in the beginning of this year, I start to notice that something is up. And quite frankly, the reason why we all got to know that something was up was because of Zomato.

Because Zomato acquired Blinket, which used to be called Grofers, which was actually an app that used to deliver vegetables and fruits and groceries. But nothing like the blanket that you imagine today. It was a completely different kind of a app. A little bit like slaughtered deliveries. They pick it up from Kirana stores and they tried some stuff. in fact, I remember one particular report that essentially said that something like that Grofers at the time were spending close to rupees 200 odd to make one rupee of revenue. Wow.

It was an absurd math. And in fact, when Zomato decided to buy it, the stock, I mean, Zomato share price actually fell by significantly because their investors were like, why are you doing this? This makes no sense. And they said, no, no, no, we think this actually makes sense. We're like, cool, let's see what happens. But after that, when they started publishing their results, quarter after quarter, then they started to see that, why, there's something happening here.

And then you started to notice Zepto is starting to get funding. Swiggy is going in saying that we believe that Swiggy, Instamart is going to be a bigger business than the food delivery business. And then you know, wait a minute, what's going on here. So over this entire year, I have really been obsessed with it. And I wrote about Swiggy. I have written about Blinket. I've written about Zepto. I've written about Flipkart.

And the thing. thing that really struck me was that I didn't want to keep writing about it just theoretically. So I said, okay, luckily this is something that everybody uses. And I have an email that I send out every Saturday.

So the NADGRAF goes on on Saturday. The way how I describe it is it's basically a newsletter about connections and consequences. And my target audience is people who are hung over and wake up on Saturday morning. And I just try to tell a story that they don't forget. So I said, what if I asked

you and I decided I'll invert it and said instead of me telling you what's really good one, why don't you tell me what you do? And if enough of you tell me, I'll try to write a story back to you. So how many people wrote back? I mean, responded to the survey. I got 1,500 people who replied to it and it wasn't just one or two questions because I actually gave, I think it was close to 10, 14 questions that I'd asked. The pitch that I said in the newsletter was, look, it's going to take you less time to answer this than it is to get a 10 minute delivery. so you might as well do it. And they did.

So they didn't just choose options. They also had the thing that they had to write responses on things like, can you describe your shopping behavior? What do you think about this app? What do you think about that? And they wrote a lot. They wrote a lot of really interesting, amazing stuff. Aren't you overwhelmed?

That's my question. I was actually, you know what the honest answer is? I didn't open the results until I closed it. So I started the survey and I saw the responses in the beginning. I saw, okay, 500 response, 7,000 responses. Then I said, okay, I'm going to keep this open for another week. Until I close it, I'm not going to even look at the results because honestly I was terrified.

And so I waited. Then one day when it crossed 1,500, I said, okay, this is enough now. Then I stopped it. Then I opened it and said, okay, now let me look at the results. And yeah, it was overwhelming but also extremely fun. Did you get a sense of who these responses came from? Like, who were the respondents who kind of wrote in?

Yeah, that's a good question. So I typically don't ask in general, Rahel, too many questions about, like, you know, typically what surveys do? They essentially say, tell me your name, tell me where you work, what's your household income, what's your mother's maiden names? I don't ask any of those questions. I just essentially said, look, tell me your name. And just tell me about these things.

So I don't know exact answers, but I know that they're all subscribers of the NutGraph. And so reasonable to believe that they're probably slightly hardcore subscribers, which means they cut across, you know, people who work in Bangalore, in like companies and startups. but also across multiple cities. Some of them are students. Some of them are older people. I got 1,500 responses across 35 cities. Wow.

Yeah. So the bulk of them were from Bangalore and Bombay. But I even got responses from really small places like Coimbatur and Lucknow and some really, really small towns. These are not small towns necessarily, but I got some of them as well. Just to get it out of the way, PGGK, what could be the possible biases, you know, amongst these people who took the survey? The only real bias is that, number one, of course, there is a bias with respect to income. Because if you're a subscriber, if you're a subscriber of the Ken, it's reasonable to believe that you're a much more person who's a little more affluent. You're a little more curious.

You're a little more ambitious. You're all of those people. English speaking, all of these things. I also think there is a bit of a Bangalore bias because I tend to write a little bit more about tech and business. And because I've always lived in Bangalore and talk about Bangalore a lot. Yeah, your newsletter on the floods. Oh my God. People who are listening, you should read it.

I'll add a link to the end of the show notes. Yeah. So it's that. But I also think, in fact, one of the people wrote back to me after when I published the whole thing and said, oh, this is all very nice, but this is not representative of India. And I said, yes, absolutely it is not representative of India. In fact, I would argue it's even more fun. Because the thing is that because the people who are using quick commerce apps and 10-minute delivery apps

are not people who are sitting across tire. two tire three cities in India. It is these people. The people who are responding to the survey on the Nuttgraph are the quote-unquote power elite users of some of these apps. And I think what they have to say is frankly more interesting what others have to say. So the results that you got, was there anything that kind of surprised you? Was there a lot in there?

I know we'll get into it later in the conversation. But was there something that you believed going in and, you know, the results kind of flipped that completely? Did that happen at all? a lot. I think some things I sort of suspected and I think very similar. Some of it was like similar and sort of like backed by data.

But some of it was very, very counterintuitive. And we can talk about some of that. PGK, the most interesting part of your survey. I mean, of course, there's a lot to it. But on a little bit of a superficial level, right? Like that's what everybody's talking about in the Ken Newsroom. Is the analogy that you used. Relationships.

Like, tell us a. But why? What made you take it up, you know? So, the short answer is what I do is every week on the Nutgraph, I try to tell a story about something. And I make a promise, it's a very tall order that I promise that I try to tell it in a way that you won't forget. What I'm really doing is I'm saying, hey, I'll tell it in a way that you can go and tell it at a party and you can hopefully sound a little smart about it. So I'm even giving you the analogy how to do it. Now, for 1,500 responses, I really had no idea how to do that. So I said, okay, look, and the thing that stood out to me was at the end of the day, our relationship with all of these apps are exactly like how our relationships are with people.

And these apps, I started to believe, after I looked at the responses for a while, and I started looking at them. And after doing all of the analysis, I said, apps can be people too. And they also have Felix and they also have goals and they also have desires. And so then I started thinking, what would it be like if they were all. people and what would their love lives be? What would they be trying to do? So the thing that I basically say is that all of these apps essentially have only one goal, which is they're looking for users and they want these users to be exclusive to them and be only with them. And they want these users to be deeply committed to them, which means they want their users to spend as much time and money

on them as possible and not anywhere else. Which one could argue is what most human beings may want in relationships? Yeah, arguably. Arguably. I'm sure there are like all kinds of people. Things have changed now. Things have changed now. They're all kinds of people

and we support all kinds of lifestyle. But that is essentially what I thought these apps wanted. And they were not getting that. And in fact, what I found out was very broadly speaking, they were falling into two kinds of categories. And that's what I asked.

I said, what kind of a partner do you prefer? Do you prefer a partner who's looking for a casual but an exclusive relationship with you? Or, do you? you want a partner who's ready for a serious relationship with you, like ready to be very, very serious with you, but also insist that I'm going to have multiple partners.

Which of the two do you want? That's so complicated to understand because in real life it's the opposite, no? Yes. And that's exactly what it is. Because in real life, everybody wants people who is exclusive to them and also extremely committed to them. Those two things go hand in hand. But what these apps are getting is either users who are extremely casual,

but exclusive or users who are extremely like committed but are interested in multiple apps at the same time and that's really the conflict at the heart of it they have to figure out how to take users who are interested in doing one of these two to an exclusive and a deeply committed relationship so who are these people like who are these apps personify you personified in the newsletter also like tell us like who is swiggy

what kind of a person or blanket for example. Yeah. So I actually went a little bit overboard. So because I started personifying all of these apps, I started thinking, what kind of a person would Swiggy be? What kind of a person would a blanket be?

What kind of a person would Zepto be? So this is what I've come up with. First, I think Swiggy is, let's start with Swiggy, because Swiggy is the most interesting one. The reason why Swiggy is interesting is because for many ways, Swigy is the incumbent. Swigy is the one that actually

one of the first people who started, you know, if not 10 minute delivery, at least they started Instamart. They started quick commons. it for they had the largest share of the market to begin with and swiggy for me i person as this person who's you know this kind of person and and i think i have to be very very careful here to say that none of this is gendered we have to basically be saying that uh as a person swiggy is someone who's kind of like good at everything without being exceptional at anything you know those people

whom you may have met or may have been in a relationship with who are reasonably good looking reasonably wealthy reasonably talented reasonably you know committed all of these things but they're all above average at everything

without being exceptional at anything so they're great people to be in a relationship with they are not people that you would cheat on your partner with right but even when you're in a relationship with them

you're satisfied you're happy but you want to know what's out there but you don't want to know what's out there okay that's exactly who Swiggy Instom artists. Right. And what about Blinket? Blinket.

Okay, so Blinket is this amazing app because Blinket is one of those apps where you know those people whom you see who are probably like decent at everything. They're pretty decent at everything. But they really, really, really stand out on one thing, you know?

It's what you call, like they have a spike like in the sense that you basically meet these people maybe they're on dating apps, maybe they're at parties. And they're like, oh, they're pretty good. They're pretty good. And oh my God. They are so rich.

Okay, they are richer than everybody else. I mean, you are already very good. But the fact that they are rich suddenly like makes them much more attractive. And you know there's nobody richer than them. You know? And that's what Blinket is. Blinket is good at everything. But they have this one spike which really takes them off the charts.

Right. And makes them super desirable for everybody. Right. So in other words, this person, this Blinket person who, whoever that person is in a relationship with is not going to, well, cheat on Blinket because they're looking for more money than someone else because they're not going to find anybody. But they may cheat on them for other reasons,

but they're not going to cheat on them for... I just want to put it out there like a disclaimer. You know, all of these analogies that we're using, it's very loosely just to understand, you know, what we're talking about. But please don't take it so seriously. Of course. These are all just like things that I essentially use

to describe these apps in terms of people we may have heard of, may have met, may have heard of other people, may have heard of other people having all of those stuff. That's why I use these analogies. Okay, so Zepto. Zepto. Okay, so Zepto is very interesting.

Okay, so Zepto is one of those people who's again really, really good at, you know, you see these people and you think, oh, this is the kind of person that I may want to have a fling with. This is a kind of person whom I don't foresee something really serious with them. This is just something that I'm going to do for fun. But you're wrong. Because after that, you realize, oh, my God,

This is actually not so bad after all. So they're really, really good in like a couple of things, but quite weak at a third or reasonably weak at a third. I wouldn't say very weak. But they're quite good at one or two things. And you think, oh, this is something I'm just going to use once in a while. But then over a period of time, you start to think, hmm, this is not so bad after all.

So they're those kind of users. For some reason, Big Basket seems like an outlier here. How would you describe Big Basket? Big Basket is a fascinating company. And that was actually, because we spoke about one of the most surprising things that I learned, the most surprising thing that I learned among these apps was actually the power of Big Basket. So, in fact,

even when I'd created the survey, I hadn't even put in Big Basket as an option, right, initially. But then the reason why I thought about it was because Big Basket has been doing a big marketing blitz of late. And if you've seen it, they basically have, like, during the IPL, they had like Virat Koli and a bunch of these

RCB players standing in front and saying Big Basket, 10 minutes now. Okay, because they're desperately trying to tell people that we deliver in 10 minutes. So I said, well, I'm sure all of the marketing must have some kind of a impact. So let's find out. So let's basically put it there. I didn't expect much to happen, but I was wrong.

You know, Big Basket is very interesting because Big Basket is one of those people, if you're continuing the relationship analogy, okay, is one of those people that is surprisingly good and a catch. But nobody knows about it. Only the people who are with Big Basket are like, I can't believe I lucked out with this. And the others are like, really would you, would you like cheat on your partner with Big Basket?

Like Big Basket, I'm not so sure. But they don't realize it. Big Basket is really, really good. In fact, it's very good on two out of three things. There are three attributes. We'll talk about the three attributes. But it is horrible at the third one. So imagine this kind of a partner that is like a catch,

but exceptionally good at like two things, but really, really, really bad. And the third thing, that is also really important. And so you're kind of like stuck there for like a bit, but you basically try to meet your needs in other areas. I'm feeling like Big Basket is that, you know, that one kid in college who nobody really notices till college fest, suddenly he'll pull out one guitar and like just everyone's like, oh my God. Who is this guy? Well, fair.

It could be like that. Or another way to think about it would be, wow, this person is extremely talented. Wow, this person is extremely rich. Oh, too bad that they are, you know, they don't even have a house. You know, it's something like that. It is actually like that. Because it's like they're really, really good at two things. Yeah.

But the third and the most important thing, they're really bad at it. Okay. And they're actually working on trying to improve it. Okay. So which is actually speed of delivery. So by far, whenever we spoke to people and when he surveyed people about users of Big Basket, for as an example, they said that they were very good at like selection. They're very good at pricing.

But they're really, really bad at speed. So, PGA, tell us a little more about these three things. Yeah. you know. So I think I started off with the fundamental question of, okay, I have a bunch of people and they've all spoken to me. The first question that came to my mind is, how do you even define loyalty? Because at the end of the day, if the purpose of all of these apps is to essentially say,

we want people who are loyal to us and dependent on us, how do you define loyalty? How do you know if someone has more loyal users or less loyal users? So here's what I did. I asked two questions. the first question I asked was what is your default app now this is a very interesting question because no matter how many of our apps you use you always

have a default app you always essentially have this one app that you're going to open your phone and say when someone says I want you to buy you know Atta you're going to open one app what's yours mine at this point is probably Blinket

yeah it's more blinket it used to be Instamart I have not used Zepto much but I've used Instamart but I've used Instamart I think now it's becoming Blinket. If you RSP today, it would be Blinket.

But I'm sure, I'm sure it changes for everybody else. What's yours? Mine is Blinket. Used to be Zepto. Used to be Zepto and Blinket. What about yours? Blinket always. Blinket always.

Okay. Here's a question for you, Rahil. Do you have other apps installed on your phone? I have, but it'll be like, okay, like for instance, if I want something very specific, like for black, like whatever, like soy sauce and I can't find it on Blinket, then I will go to Swiggy Instamart. Like, and it's literally, it's just Instamart and Blanket on my phone. I think it's.

Got it. What about you? Blinket and Swiggy Instamot. Right. And Zepto have just removed. Same. Got it. So the three of us are this kind of user that I describe as a non-exclusive user.

Okay. Which means that we have a preference, but we also have one or more backups, right, that we use, right? Again, think about it. It's the same relationship analogy. We are all in a relationship with, in this case, Blinket, but sometimes we spray. Backup plan. And we have a backup. We stray to a Swiggy Instamart for some need that is not being met.

This is exactly the analogy. So we are non-exclusive users. There are a set of users whom we call exclusive users, which means they say, I have one app on my phone. Perhaps it could be Swiggy Instamart. It could be Blinket. It could be Zepto. And they're exclusive.

Wow. And they say, I only have this app and nothing else. But how does it work, PGK? I can't understand that. Because for me, for example, and even you and all of us, actually, we're using like another app for. for particular reasons, right? So I don't understand if they know that these other apps exist,

then why would they stick to just one? Right. That's a great question. And the answer to that question really comes down to the second question that I had asked, which is, how much of your grocery do you spend on 10-minute delivery apps? So, for instance, if I asked the two of you, I would guess, like, just like me, we spend probably a higher part of our budget that we spend on groceries on these apps. I mean, let's face it.

We are all here. We use multiple apps. I don't want to say I'm embarrassed. But it's true. But we can't run away from that. Yeah, you're right. We probably don't want to spend so much on them. Mine is 100%.

Yours is closer to 100%. What about you? Probably around 80. Yeah. So I think mine is closer to like 50 to 60%. Okay. But yeah, yeah, because I use some other stuff for like, you know, fruits and vegetables and stuff. But at the end of the day,

the truth is that the three of us are people who spend more. Because we spend more, we have multiple apps. The people who are in exclusive relationships are essentially people who spend very little. So as an example, it could be perhaps people like my parents. Or people like your parents. God. Right? So they may have a blanket installed because,

oh, someday I may run out of sugar. I did not do my weekly grocery planning very well. Oh, my God, such a big mistake. I guess I have to get sugar. and they will use that app to get that sugar. Right. But that's it. And nothing else.

They're not going to use three apps for that. Right. But so then you're saying non-exclusive users spend more money, correct? Right? So, but we started this conversation by saying that ideally for a grocery app, they would want someone who only comes to them to meet all their needs, right? Yes. A committed.

Yes. Monogamous relationship. So then, I mean, isn't that kind of counterintuitive in that sense? because then isn't your ideal customer a non-exclusive user? Absolutely. That's exactly what it is. So it is because these apps want people

who are exclusive and, you know, deeply committed. But instead, what they're getting are these two kinds of users. They're getting the kind of user like my parents who are exclusive but casual. Or they're getting people like us who are non-exclusive but dependent.

Right? So they're getting these two. kinds of users and they have to figure out either have to take users like that and make them more dependent or they have to take users like us and make us more exclusive. So how does that look for the apps that we're talking about now? Right. So I'll come to the exclusivity versus non-excluding how they're trying to do this. But before that, the first thing that we need to understand is where do these three apps stand? Like if you look at at least the three or four apps that we have, where do the stand with the

users that they have today? So let's start one by one. So the way. So the way how I described it. I said, okay, the way we can think about loyalty is what makes anyone stick with an app? Like you three of us here coincidentally, by the way, this program is not sponsored by Blinkill, it was a complete coincidence that the three of us used Blinket, which actually is a telling story of the rise of Blinket in QuickComps, which is a separate story altogether. But the main thing is that, let's say, for instance, the three of us, somebody asks, why do you stick to this app?

We can answer this in many ways. Like you said, like, oh, for soy sauce I use like Swiggy Instamard. Someone else may say, oh, I try to use it. Like, for instance, I had some users who write in and said that I generally use Swigy Instamart. But what happens is during lunchtime, I find out that the delivery times increase. So what I do is then I switch to a blanket or a receptor. So you have multiple reasons why people do that. So I said, forget about the reasons why people switch.

Let's talk about the reasons why people stay. Right. So we start there. So again, like a relationship, you start off with, why do you stay in this relationship? What do you get out of this relationship, right? So the thing that I said was, I said, okay, if you think about it, there are actually three things. So I had a friend who had spoken to Longback. So he was actually a senior executive at one of these quick commerce companies.

And he said, look, all quick commerce essentially comes down to three things. It comes down to selection and availability. It comes down to speed of delivery. And it comes down to price. And you can play in these three things. In fact, there is a fantastic episode of Kabir Biswas, who is the CEO of Danzo, who's speaking to Rohen. So the first episode of first principles, maybe we can like find it somewhere where he actually explains to Rohan that there are four things. He says there are selection, there is speed, there is price and there is quality.

So those are the four things that he said. So I said, okay, the reason I didn't take quality as an example, I said, okay, let me keep quality on the side because I felt like quality is one of those things where people can interpret it in many ways. But selection availability, speed and price is relatively easy to interpret. it. So I just asked that question. So I asked them, out of the apps that you use, you're a non-exclusive user, what would you rank as the best app in terms of selection? So then they ask them to choose an answer. Then I ask them, what is the best app according to you is the best in terms of speed? And I ask them to choose an answer. Then as according to you, what is the best app in terms of price and has them to choose an answer. So the ones who essentially said, I prefer blinket as an example.

and the ones who said that Blinket is high on selection or Blinket is high on price or Blinket is high on speed they are the ones who are sticking to Blinket for that reason. Correct. So without asking you why do you use Blinket I'm asking your belief on what is the fastest tap

or what is the cheapest tap or what is the one of the best selection and your answers are telling me why you stick with something. Right. Yeah. But is anyone getting all of it right? So it's interesting. So when you go down this path, you find out that the four apps have very, very different characteristics. First, if you take Blinket, unsurprisingly, the biggest reason why Blinket users stick with Blinket is... Fastest.

No. No. The range of products. Yes, the range of products. In fact, 83% of the people who basically said Blinket is my default app, they may use other apps, is my default app. 83% of them and I asked them what app is the best

with respect to range and selection and availability they said Blinket of course right so is the analogy again like a relationship so if I said that why are you with your partner

they won't be able to say but then I say that oh in this room of people who is the most beautiful person and if you pick your partner you're with your partner because your partner is a beautiful or a handsome person

so I'm asking that without really asking that so that's what's coming out so Blinket went very high with respect to selection and range. It was reasonably high with respect to speed. Nearly 69 to 70% people said

Blinket is the best app with respect to speed. Price was lower. It was less than 50%. Less than 50% of Blinket users set. Who's killing it at price, Pigege. Price. Price is very interesting because now we can go into Big Basket.

If you ask a Big Basket user, someone who uses Big Basket and say, and you ask this person, which app is the best with respect to selection, 57% of them say Big Basket. is the best at selection, of course, right? But if you ask them, which is the best for pricing, 80% of them are saying, of course Big Basket is the best at pricing,

which was really surprising for me. Big Basket actually is very, very good at pricing, or at least its users believe that cheapest, of course Big Basket. Is this even a question? So, but on the other hand, very few people believe that it is very good at speed. In fact, only 25% of people pick Big Basket for their speed. So that means that people stick to Big Basket and they're loyal to Big Basket because they love the availability,

love the pricing, and they are most likely to cheat on them for speed. And who do they cheat on? Who do they cheat on? Who do they cheat on for speed? So now we are coming into speed. Now speed, now we come to the third app, which is Zepto.

If you ask Zeptos users, hey, Zepto users, which app do you think is the best at availability and selection? 38% of them say, well, Zepto, okay. But you ask them, what about pricing? Again, now it crosses.

50%. More than 50% of users say, yeah, yeah, Zepto is very good at pricing. But if you ask them speed, nearly 70% of Zepto's users say, of course Zepto is the best at speed. This is even a question. So, Zeptos users essentially,

so in summary, if you really think about these three apps, what you really are seeing is Blinkets users believe that Blinket is the best at availability and speed. Big Baskets users believe it is the best at availability and pricing. Zeptos users believe it's the best at pricing and speed. So each one of them are good at two of the three.

Their users say, my app is the best at broadly two out of three. They score outperform. But PGK, coming back to Swiggy, now, which does relatively well at all these fronts,

like you said, but it's not the best at any of these, right? But the question is, you know, why would someone not choose Swiggy? Because it's doing relatively well

at all three fronts. Right? For example, Big Baskett is not good at speed at all. Yeah. You know, but Swiggy is doing all of these things decently well.

I'll answer that question. But for that, first, we have to understand why Swiggy's user stick with Swiggy. Right? You're talking about why would other people use Swiggy or why would, like for instance, if you're saying Big Basket, low on speed, why would they not use Instomart? So I'm saying, forget about that.

Let's talk about, because you've spoken about three apps. Let's come to Swiggy. Swiggy is the outlier here. Swiggy is the big outlier here because, like I said, every one of these apps. outperform in two out of three. Their users believe that it's really good in two out of three. Swiggy's users believe that its app is above average or decent at all three.

It doesn't outperform anywhere. It doesn't cross 50% in even one of these three things. But it's at 45%, 47%, 43%. Right? So contrasted with something like a big basket, which is at a 57% 80 and 25. Right? So, Swigy on the other hand is like this 43, 47, 43.

So all three parameters users are decent, good, decent good, decent good. It must be really hard to even pull this off, right? Yes. To be decently good at all three fronts. Absolutely. In fact, I think the reason why this is happening is also because remember that Swiggy in many ways is the incumbent. Because at one point in time, Swiggy came and it basically said, oh, we have, We have good availability.

We have good pricing. We have good speed. And somebody else just has to come. That's how all insurgency happens. They have to come and say, oh, you're doing all three. Fine. I'm going to undercut you on price. Someone else can come and say, I'm going to be faster than you.

Someone else can say, I'm going to increase the range. So Swiggy has this unfortunate situation where it has to defend everything and be good at everything, where others have to be good at just one or two things. So that's like a disadvantage also. It's a disadvantage. So that is why Swiggy is in this position where it has users who stick with it for reasons that it's a, it's like what you said. It's a good enough app. It's reliable.

It's decent. Why do I need to look anywhere else? It's a nice person I found on the arranged marriage market. You know? Why do I need to go to and look for anything else? This is fine. They meet all my needs reasonably well. but I sometimes get tempted.

Exactly. And I start to get tempted because I am becoming more dependent on these apps. So now the difference between a 10 minute and an 8 minutes starts to look like a lifetime. And then I start to think, 10 minutes is too much. Can I get something in like 8 minutes? And then you open another app. And that's what happens with Swiggy. So what happens with Swiggy is it's one of those apps that its users find it.

there are many reasons for its users to cheat on Swiggy but there aren't enough reasons for users of other apps to cheat on their app with Swiggy think about it. If I'm a big basket user and I'm unhappy about speed I'm going to open Zepto. If I'm a Zepto user and unhappy but selection I'm going to open Blinket. If I'm a blanket user unhappy about price I'm going to open a big basket

or a Zepto. So basically Swiggy Instamart is nobody's second choice. So it's a really sweet app It really is I can't believe I'm feeling sorry for Suki Yeah In many ways you should feel sorry for Sviki It is an incumbent position

It is the nice guy right It is the nice guy Okay I mean guy Nice guy nice girl Yeah whatever Girl next door Nice guy Yeah it's a nice person

But for whatever reason That's the position that they find themselves So what does that mean From the perspective of how much money are people spending on these apps? Like, how does that look? Like, does any of this make a difference to that side of things? No. I never asked the question of how much money you use. The only correlation we know is that the more apps you have on your phone, the more you are spending on 10 minute grocery as a share in order to do your grocery purchases. Well, I'll give you

one interesting thing that I found out. Again, there may be a little bit of a bias as a result of the respondents that I have, right? Which is that once you move from exclusive to non-exclusive, that movement is not linear. You would think that if you're stuck with an app, suddenly one day you realize, you know what, I'm, I've decided I'm no longer going to be exclusive because I'm doing this a lot and more often. So I need to find more apps. So you don't go from one to two. In fact, you're more likely to go from one to three. Oh, yeah. So if you look at the share of respondents and you ask them, how many apps do you shop on? The maximum number of people said one.

The second highest was three. Then it was four. And then it was two. Right? So that means that people, when they, so it means that when they cheat, they go all out. They are not doing this. They're not moving from monogamy to buy giving.

Yeah, they're not doing that. They are going straight to polyamory. But it's almost like, you know, it's almost like some kind of a natural progression, no, PGG in this whole ecosystem. of quick delivery apps. You know, I don't mean it in a bad way. Like, I'm talking about, like, a user who uses, like, multiple apps is what we could call, like, a more evolved user, right?

Yes, yes. Yeah, I'm just talking about, like, isn't it, like, a natural progression if you are a user of quick delivery apps to move to polyamory? Yes, absolutely. In fact, that is the only thing that. I must say as a bias in my respondent. Like you said, what is a bias in my respondent? This is one bias.

A lot of my respondents are probably people who adopted quick commerce early. And hence, they are comfortable enough to jump to three or four apps on their phone. Perhaps, perhaps for the average user, they use one. And then, of course, this base of people who use two is probably higher than what I expect. It's possible. But that is possibly a bias. You're right that perhaps my response. are people who have been using this for a while.

So obviously they have three or four apps that they use regularly. Because they're very practiced users. Correct. Yeah. That's quite possible. And where do subscriptions come into all of this? You know, your Swiggyva and your Zepto subscription,

does that kind of contribute? Does that get people to cheat less? You know, it's all like an engagement when you think about it. I mean, it doesn't really stop people. Yeah. I feel like this episode. to come with some sort of trigger warning. I mean, it's home, guys.

So the one thing I'll say is that one of the questions that I asked in the survey was I said, regardless of whatever app that you use, what are the words that come to your mind when I say the name of a certain app? So let's say, for instance, I said, one of the questions I asked was, what are the words that come to your mind when I say Swiggy Instamata? What are the words that come to your mind when I say Zepto? What are the words that come to your mind when I say Blinket? And I asked this question because I wanted to get perception. Because you may not be using these apps, but any of these apps, but I want to get what perception means, right?

So if you look at, say, Blinket, do you have any guesses on, I created a word cloud of this and I published in my newsletter of all the words, the big words that, you know, the people said the more words they used to describe it. The more times they used to describe it, the bigger that word was on the word cloud. Variety. Variety. Do you have a guess? Fast, I'm guessing also. Fast. So fast was there, you're right, because speed is quite high.

But do you know what the bigger words were? You're right. Variety, fast. So I'll read out the big words, right? Quick. So quick is not unusual because everyone is talking in terms of quick commerce, so everyone is quick. Yeah, right. Yeah.

Okay. Fast is quite big. Okay. Here are the other words that come. Products. Selection. Range. Okay.

and more interestingly everything that was actually an interesting word it's the only app where the word everything comes through in such a high frequency

do you want to guess what it is for Swiggy Instamart Reliable Well done that is the answer it is so quick of course

is quite big Fast is there but fast is not as big as Blinket reliable is the big word good convenient see how

see how the words are these are not strong words these are not words with strong emotional feelings they're not words like everything it's like

reliable it's reliable no yeah no it's good it's not a bad thing it's not a neutral word but it's also not a word

would would you describe your partner as reliable I mean, I don't know if that's a saying that's like, really, that's the best thing you can say, okay, so it's a little bit like that. I mean, in the world that we live in, in the world that we live in,

it is a big... Sure, okay, fair enough. All right. Reliable, convenient. Okay, so it's there. Quick is also there. And of course, the other word that's really high up is food. Because a lot of people associate Swiggy with food, right? And the most, one of the biggest words out there,

good. Okay, it's good. So those are the words that Standard. Blinket also has good of course. Any guesses for Zeptop? Fast. Fast is there. Fast is there for the others as well. In fact, fast is the biggest, right?

Everyone says, so there is a big difference between the words quick and fast. Because I actually, again, this is probably my bias, but the more time I'm spending looking at this, I feel like fast is a much more extreme word. Like you really wouldn't use the word fast unless you really believed it. Quick, quick, quick, quick,

everything is quick, it's all quick. Okay, but the word fast if you have to use, it's a much more stronger word. Right. And for Zepto, the word fast is really, really big. In fact, for Zepto, if you look at the things, it says fast, quick, new. Okay.

And there was another word, fastest. It is the only one which has the word fastest. Okay. In its top 10 or top 15. So it's not just fast. People are saying it is faster than everybody else. Right? PG can just, this one question that I had, you know, Blinket seems like the kind of app that everybody uses to cheat, like, you know, cheats on their default app with Blinket, right?

Yeah. Because of obviously, like you said, the variety and also the speed to some extent. But Zepto is also doing great in terms of like you said just now, like fast test. No users said fastest for any other app. So fastest plus price as well, right? So why not Zepto instead of? It is. It is Zepto as well.

So what happens, the real difference between what Blinket and Zepto does. So if you let's look at it very simply, what's really happening is. Blinket is essentially scoring really high on one axis, which is selection and availability. So if you are looking for something, you can't find it on your default app, you are opening Blinket. You're not opening anything else, right? In fact, there is nothing else that number three is like very, very low, right? so it's really, really small. Now, the difference between Zepto and Blinket is that

Blinket steals everyone's high value users. So what does this mean? It means that if you're someone who wants to cheat on your app because of selection or you want to cheat on your app because you're looking for something faster, you're going to open Blinket. So those are high value users,

right? Because what you're really saying is that I'm a user who cares a lot about this product, I need this product, and I'm willing to pay a little extra for it if I need to. I'm a user. I want this really quickly and I'm willing to go to the app that gives it to be faster even if it charges me a little bit more. Right.

Because I'm not very price sensitive. Those kind of users cheat on their app with Blinket. Zepto on the other hand, the people who basically care about speed and price are the ones who cheat on their app with Zepto. So in other words, what happens is Zeptos sometimes steals low value users. Now here's an example of how that happens. Have you used, if you have used Swiggy or Blinket, do you know? know what the minimum amount is

after which the delivery charge changes? No, no, no. Do you know it? See, this is it. This is why. This is a great example. Because the three of us are in this room. We use Blinket. We don't know that number. It means we are not price sensitive. At least we're not as price sensitive as other people are. That number and that value is

$199.00. Until $199, the delivery charge that you have to pay, at least in certain markets that I saw, including Bangladesh, is around $32. Once you cross $199, that becomes $16. That is also similar for Swiggy Instamart the last I checked. You know what the lower amount is for Zepto?

What is the... The lower amount for Zepto, afterwards the delivery charge changes, it's not $199. It is $99. So what happens is a lot of people wrote this in subjective comments to me, which is that when you want to buy something, you generally go to Swiggy Instamard, Blinket, etc. Then you're after that you purchase it.

Then you're like, oh, damn, I forgot this one product. I need this I really really need this How much is it? Oh it's just like 100 rupees or it is just like you know 50 rupees

and you're like I'm not going to open Swiggy now and buy something for 50 bucks because I have to pay that much delivery charge Hey why don't I do it in Zepto So I just have to get it up to 99

And then I will get that So that's what I mean But these are the users that Zepto is stealing Okay I have a bit of a stupid question Of course So you know like how

When you go to Chroma And you're buying a refrigerator You pull out like the Amazon price of the same refrigerator and if it's low, they'll match it. Yes. So why doesn't Blinket just match it and say, hey, here. Because Blinket doesn't want those users. Okay. Because those users are people who are extremely sensitive on price.

100 rupees make such a big difference to them, right? So those are the users who are going to go across multiple apps to check which is a product, which is cheaper over here. What is the shopping amount? What is the delivery charge, etc. Blinket is like you stay there. We don't want you. But PGK, tell me something. You know, all these apps ultimately are fighting for exclusivity,

like the relationship with the user, right? So why, I mean, that would mean that they have to kill it on all these three fronts, which is pricing, speed, and selection. So why does Blinket not care about pricing? Blinket is also picking its battles. Blinket is basically saying we are on this place right now where if Blinket had to fight on pricing, then what would have to do is it would have to undercut others. It would have to basically go down and say, well, you're doing major discounts with our delivery.

We are making our products cheaper, which means that it starts to become less profitable. The other difference between these other companies is that Zomato is right now a public company. And Zomato is in a place right now where it really has to prove profitability. And because it has to prove profitability, it's better off trying to get high value users than trying to fight for low value users. is my theory, right? Which is why if you look at, say, Zomato's results, which came out, I think,

just last week or two weeks back, in that, if you look at Blinkets numbers, blinkets numbers are growing considerably with respect to transacting. So it's definitely attracting new users, and we'll talk about that. But its average order value, it went, it was at a certain level,

it was been increasing from 500, I think, to 607, it went up, again, it came back down. So they're in that place right now where they're trying not to really fight on price. They're saying, okay, we'll be competitive. We're not going to kill ourselves here. We're not going to deep discount ourselves here.

Right. PGA, just to take a little break from, it's quite intense to process all this. Tell us somehow the most bizarre and weirdest and funniest stories that you heard from your respondents. Yeah. So I asked this question on what is the thing? I asked two questions.

I asked them, what are the things that you would never buy on quick commerce? And I asked them, what are the most, give me an example of the most fun

and weirdest thing that you found on 10 minute grocery apps, right? So the things that they said, the fun and the weirdest thing that they bought on 10 minute grocery apps.

Again, I made a word cloud of it. In fact, I ended my newsletter with this. Do you want to guess the word that is the biggest out there? The most bizarre reason why people use

10 minute grocery. at least they believed and bizarre. I feel like I know what it is. Printouts? Printouts. Printouts is the biggest. In purple, it's just blinking at you. It's like a huge use kiss for people.

So the weird things that I found out were printouts. The other thing that I found out was people use it a lot for games. So they use it for board games. So they use it to buy Monopoly. They use it to buy Uno. They use it to buy. like puja items somebody

somebody also wrote in and said that I actually went to my fiancé's place and my mother-in-law my potential mother-in-law she lost her earphones or it stopped working

and I decided to impress her so I just like opened this and then I got this delivered and I want some brownie points and of course when people were staring and they were like what what is this magic

you're getting headphones in like 10 minutes then my favorite which I also use this for mosquito racket Nothing more annoying than having to kill mosquitoes And you're like, damn it, I have to buy on an app is it coming tomorrow I want to kill them today

And you're like, oh, I can get a mosquito racket So mosquito racket was very high up as well So yeah, these are the basic weird things That people found Also, there were a lot of people who told you all about What are like some things or some categories That they just don't use these apps for right? Yes.

Can we talk about that a little bit? Yes, so there are two broad clusters where people never use quick commerce for. One cluster is anything that is high value electronics, fashion, etc. They say, I'm never going to use this, which could even be lower value electronics, even for headphones and things. They say, I'm never going to use it. Clothes, another example. So all of these broadly fall in the same category where people are just not going to use

quick commerce because they say, well, I really like to look at a lot of options before I decide. I really am comfortable checking this out perhaps on an Amazon or a flip card or anywhere else. I don't see a return policy if this clothes don't fit me. So I'm not so sure, so I'm never going to buy it. So that's cluster one. The second cluster are people on the other end of the spectrum who say, I will never use quick commas and I never use quick commas for fresh items. So anything that's fruits and vegetables, for instance, I will never use this. You are one of them, right? Yes. I generally tend not to use them for fruits and vegetables because the quality has never been that great for me.

And I think a lot of people and my respondents in my survey believe that. And they also say that's true. So these are the two extremes where I believe are the limits of quick commerce. And I kind of understand the logic behind that. Like I understand the hesitation behind like not wanting to invest in something expensive. You know, whatever. And electronic, for instance, not I get that. So why sell them at all?

Not to turn the lens back on the company. But why would they want to sell them at all then? Yeah, because the fundamental thing is that at the end of the day, all of these companies, like they're all like having their own users, they're trying their best to keep their users, they're trying the best to seduce other users. And they're doing all of these things. But it is really important for them that the market grows. And the market is growing. It is the only category or one of the very, very few categories. Like if you look at, say, Flipcard, Amazon and the vast horizontal e-commerce, one could argue that that market has basically flat and has been flat for the market.

the last maybe like 12 months or so. But that is not true about quick commerce. In fact, quick commerce is growing so rapidly and all of that growth is coming from two areas. And there are two ways to grow. Either you expand the market. In other words, you get more people to use quick commerce who've never used it before. Or you get people who use quick commerce to spend more on quick commerce.

So you either expand the market or you expand the wallet. And the way you expand the market and expand the wallet is by adding new. categories and you add more reasons for people to decide to say, really, I can use this thing? Let me check this out. I'm tired of finding out these guys are saying they're advertising a lot and seeing a lot of PR. Let me just install and let's see what the big deal is. Or it's people like us who are already like, well, semi, we are three addicts in a room. Okay.

We're already like addicted and then suddenly we're like, ooh, can I buy my clothes here too? So they're trying to get us to do that. So for high value users. So it would make sense for Blinket therefore to introduce electronics, coolers. Exactly. That's what they're doing. Blinket is trying to attack that end of the market where the people are essentially I'll never use quick commerce for these categories.

Blinket is like, ha-ha. Let's see how you do that. Okay, let's see if we can change your mind there. They're going it that way. Big basket on the other hand is going the other direction and saying, oh, you say you'll never use quick commerce and these apps for like fruits and vegetables. Let me see if we can change your mind. And they go in that direction.

PGK, does one have more advantage over the other in terms of, you know, the market growing? You know, one part is where they're getting people to spend more money, certain apps, and the others are attracting new users, right? Even though they don't spend so much money. The whole thing that you explained earlier about exclusive but casual. Correct. Yeah. So does one have more advantage over the other?

The answer to this question comes back to the question that Rahil asked 10 minutes back, and we completely weird away from, which is subscriptions. That was a question that you asked me. Only two apps out of these four have subscriptions. And those two apps are Swiggy and Zepto. Now, Swiggy and Zepto are also

the only two apps that essentially have their exclusive users, the people who only use Zepto and only use Swiggy, tend to spend more money on Swiggy and Zepto. So the people who are. who use just Blinket, there again, imagine people like my parents and your parents, perhaps, they will have one blanket on the phone that spend less than 10% of their money on it.

People who use Big Basket and only Big Basket and nothing else, again, tend to typically spend a small percentage of their money on Big Basket. But that is not true about Swiggy and Zepto. Swiggy and Zeptos users who only use Swiggy and Zepto tend to spend a little bit more. It's not like significantly, it was a little bit more. and one of the reasons is because of subscriptions. Now, we don't know if that is the reason specifically. We don't know if that is the cause.

But we do know that both of these things are true at the same time. So it's probably correlated, right? So in other words, very simply speaking, what's happening is Swiggy and Zepto are doing a very good job of squeezing their users to get them to spend more. And making them slightly, like, you're exclusive and you're spending more and more time. So think of it as, oh, you're casual. well, you're not so casual now. I'm going to give you more and more reasons to be with you. Right.

Blinket and Big Basket on the other hand are going out and saying, try us. You can be casual. Okay, just try us. Okay, I know you've never tried us before. Just have a look. So they're doing that.

So Blinket and Big Basket are doing this thing where they're trying to get users who are casual and just exclusive. Swiggy and Zepto are trying to say, well, you are the exclusive users. Let me see if I can get you to be more dependent on us. between the two of them, we don't know what's going to happen.

We don't know who has definitely going to succeed. But we do know that if you really ask me, I would rather be Blinket and Big Basket than I would be a Swiggy and Zepto. Simply because the argument is that this is a growing market, which means that Blinket and Big Basket have the option to, quote, unquote, squeeze their users later.

They can extract more value from the users later. Zepto and Swiggy are doing a very good job of squeezing their users but we don't know if they're doing a very good job of getting new users right

and among all four of them though the one app that I would not want to be is Swiggy oh no poor Swiggy yeah because Swiggy is not just like in the place where it's squeezing users

it's also not doesn't have enough reasons to get other users to cheat on their apps and move to Swiggy so ultimately the learning from this is don't be the nice guy. This one is not for you anymore.

Nice people. Finish last. Well, we don't ever go to finish last, but it's not going well for them. They have an IPO coming up soon. So, Swiggy is definitely not in a great place. It's just not had enough reasons now to convince other users to, you know, use them.

It's squeezing its users, but I'm not sure if it's able to grow and get new users. PGK, since we use this, analogy so much and you know we understood this whole world through it

I want to ask you what did you learn about relationships and dating from the story you know I actually considered writing a disclaimer right at the top

saying that I'm not an expert on you know all kinds of lifestyles and relationships so some of these things I'll get wrong

no but the thing that I really learnt at the end of all of this is that frankly we are at a very exciting place. We really are. I mean, the reason why I spend so much

time obsessing about this is because in many ways I believe this is the last category which is so action-packed and so many beautiful narratives are coming with so many protagonists and so many characters who are all

weird and quirky and interesting in their own way. That's not true for too many sectors in India because most sectors in India have dissolved into doopoly or have become very boring. They've all become middle age boring couples. Okay, literally couples. They're all duopoly.

Okay, so boring couples. And I don't want to talk about them. But these guys, this is the young ones. These are the ones who are like really exciting. So it was really nice to look at, from a relationship standpoint and from a personality standpoint, young companies, relatively young companies, doing all kinds of fun and exciting things, including seduction. But yes, the most important thing that I found out is that stories of infidelity are much

more interesting than stories of loyalty. That's life in general. All right. On that note, I think it's time to wrap up. This episode is longer than all the other two special episodes that we've had so far. But thank you so much, PGK. We had so much fun doing this with you.

I had a lot of fun. Thank you for having me. Thanks, Pagherk, because there'll be a lot of nutgraph people listening to this episode. Do you have any special message for your love? love it once. Subscribe to the no I will all I will say is that I hope that

whoever is listening to this even if they come from the NADGraph I hope they listen to Daybreak because quite frankly I love this podcast I really do I think you both are doing a phenomenal job and I really really love what's happening on Friday

especially because the last week you did the Famizi episode and I know you have another exciting one coming from next week Yeah actually it's related It's related Yeah yeah yeah So I really think that whoever is listening to this,

please, please subscribe to Daybreak, listen to it because we really, really need and want a business podcast like this. Thank you, PtK. Thank you. Thank you so much. Daybreak is produced from the newsroom of the Ken, India's first subscriber-focused business news platform. What you're listening to is just a small sample

of our subscriber-only offerings. A full subscription unlocks daily long-form feature stories, newsletters and podcast extras. Head to the ken.com and click on the red subscribe button on the top of the Ken website. Today's episode was hosted and produced by Rahal Philipose and I, Sinkta Sharma,

and it was edited by Rajiv Sien.