D&D is For Nerds - Jarren's Development Blog #1 - What the hell is it?

Episode Date: January 31, 2025

We've been tooling away at this board game for a long time and we thought it might be smart to actually tell you about it! Over the next 14 weeks join Zammit and Jackson as they look back at all the creative and technical decisions that went in to making the Jarren's Outpost Board Game. With this episode we figured we'd give you a broad overview of what the hell this game even is, the history of how it came to be and some of the trials and tribulations that we went through on the way. Make sure you follow the kickstarter to be notified when we launch and check out the Jarren's Outpost website, we will be updating that fairly regularly (baby depending). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Ugh. The ScoreBet. Trusted sports content, seamless sports betting. Download today. 19 Plus, Ontario only. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or the gambling of someone close to you, please go to ConnixOntario.ca. ["The Star-Spangled Banner"] Hey everybody, I'm Jackson Bailey.

I'm Joel Zamet. And this is the first episode of the Giants Outpost development blog. Which is gonna be like a little accompaniment to the current remaster, the Jaren's Outpost remaster you're hearing. You're gonna get an episode of this every week alongside an episode of that. Very exciting. And in this show we're just gonna talk about the board game that we're developing

because that is why we're releasing the Jaren's Outpost remaster to promote the board game that we've been making for the last six years. There is a reason why we're developing, because that is why we're releasing the Jaren's Outpost remaster to promote the board game that we've been making for the last six years. There is a reason why we're doing this. We didn't just do it for no reason. There is a reason why we're like. Honestly though, that wouldn't surprise, that would be very us, I have to admit,

but there is a reason, and that is that we've been making this board game, the Jaren's Outpost board game, for 10 million years, and we're extremely close. So we've decided, hey wouldn't it be a fun, wouldn't it be a gas if we did a sort of development blog to tell you about the board game, about the history of it, about what went into it and stuff like that. It's a bit of a retrospect. Yeah exactly. Most people when they're making these sort of things they'll like do it as they go along and those kind of things

and they kind of iron out those problems as they happen. Yeah, and they write it down, they keep possibly development blogs that you can look back and be like, what mistakes did I make? Why did we make this change? Oh, that's right, we didn't do that. No! Instead what we did is just, nothing.

I mean, you didn't, on the Jaren's Outpost website, there are a couple of dev blogs that you wrote, but those are also retrospective. They are retrospective, but there's also a few of them that are in draft that I'm just like, I'll get to them. Yeah. And you know, I got babied pretty hard. Yeah, I think you were like, oh we should do this. I was like, that's a good idea. And I wrote one and then never sent it to you or anything. So yeah, this is kind of retrospective, but it's still very valuable. And in this first episode, we're just gonna talk about what the hell is it? Mm-hmm.

Basically, because I mean, you know, again, like you Jaren's Alpo's board game. What does that mean? What does that mean? You did it like a tabletop RPG. Yeah, it is Dungeons and Dragons. You basically played the game. Can't I just follow the notes? Do you have notes that I can use that we could just kind of just run it at my own game? Yeah, well, I guess you could do it Yeah, but no instead we made it we made a full-on board game Um, I guess like the first thing I suppose is like why was this the decision we decided? Yeah

Because I honestly can't remember my memory is that you came and you're like, what if you get to make a board game? We were like, yeah, so a friend of ours who is a board game developer, Alex Winter, reached out to us way back when and was like, hey, I have this idea. He did a podcast, we've been on a few times, like it was about board games. And if you could make like, I think it was like a TV or a movie.

Oh yeah, of course. I remember that show. Yeah, so you can make like a movie, like a board game out of a movie, what would that sort of board game be like? Very cool. And so he's made a few board games in the past, and so he was like, hey, I've got this like idea sort of sitting here, sort of doing not much, like, do you guys want to have a look at it?

And maybe we can like, you know, reskin it, rebrand it or whatever, and maybe look at it as our sister show plumbing the Death Star Yeah, like do a board game like that and I was like Yes, I do far out man. What a blast from the past. I remember this now We did we got like not a like a print and play. Yeah, we get a print and play version We were like, oh maybe but I don't know but then there'd be a lot of reskinning to do Yeah, it was not quite like Cards Against Humanity It was more about like it was a similar vein, but a little bit more involved.

Very much like a party game. Yeah, it was like a party game that it just didn't really feel like... I think... It's gonna be a very frustrating thing to say in retrospect. But like reskinning that to fit what, you know know we do at Plumbing the Death Star, you know, seems like a monumental challenge. Yeah, so instead, it is so funny, like there's so many podcasts these days that do that. They make like a little party game out of the podcast.

I've seen so many recently for some reason, and we were like, no, not that. Instead we will make like an in-depth, crunchy, interesting, weird board game that is gonna take like six to seven years of our lives. I think part of it is because what we play with board games is sort of like Rude and Scythe and those kind of like, Everdell, those kind of like involved, interesting sort of like strategic games. Yeah, for sure.

And so we were like, okay, yeah, we kind of want to do something like that. I think what kind of happened to us a little bit is that, you know, most people, if you're a podcast, they're like, I'll make a board game or a party game. You're like, oh, that's like a fun piece of merch. But we were like, oh, I want to make a board game. Yeah.

Which is like a kind of just like a different experience. It's not like making a fun bit of merch that like is, you know, just a bit of fun, whatever. We were like, oh, there's like a whole enterprise under itself. But we didn't really realize that then, to be honest. No. And I remember that first initial meeting with Alex where he was like, what do you, what do you want? So, yeah, so we got the print and play version of this sort of party game that wasn't really quite us.

No, it didn't quite gel. And even trying to like reskin it in terms of like what we do at Plumbing was like, I don't know if we can make this work. But we really had a good time with Jaren's Outposts, the campaign, and there was like, well, there's like a lot of different multifaceted sort of factions, and you could do this, you could do that. So doing something like that sounds interesting, and we could kind of like board gamify that, because by and large, it is just a game.

Yeah, absolutely. And so I remember going and having a chat with Alex, and was the first person to be like okay cool so he was the one because he never really had played a lot of D&D but he was like okay I forget who he was basing this after but it was about the pre-programmatic movement that is still in this game. It's kind of one of the core elements of the game. And obviously, it's very hard to explain a board game through audio or even video for those of you watching it on YouTube. I don't want to sit here and be like, right, so you get like 10 pieces. These are your NPC cards.

You won't get it. But a crucial part of the game is that on the four turns that make up a round, see, it's already scary. On the four turns that make up a round, you pre- already scary. On the four turns that make up a round, you pre-program them before you play them. So you say I'm gonna go forward, and then on the next turn left, and then the next turn right,

and then the next, you're doing a loop in this example. And then everybody else does that as well, and you just see what's become of the game. I think that's one of the very unique parts of this game. I don't think, I've not played many other games that do something that's sort of similar to that. Yeah, he was, I forget who was based on which sort of game designer was making this.

But yes, it was about like you pre-program your move set and for us we were like, all right, we'll break it down to like seven days a week kind of thing. Each day is broken down into like four segments. And so you program before the day starts, program your day. You go like you're planning. Yeah, I want to go today We'll move forward to go to the shop and then go left to visit knock knock or whatever, you know I'll steal some of this and I'll pick that up and then I can drop this off at little loza palm and oh what's that?

I completed a quest. Um, and so it was like the the pre-program Yeah, moving was kind of like you inbuilt from the start and I was like, oh cool So that was kind of like the core game the start and it was like, oh cool. So that was kind of like the core game-playing mechanic was that, alright cool, you need to plan your perfect day and then see what happens while someone else is planning their perfect day, someone else is planning their perfect day and let's try to... See how those perfect days interact. And so there was a bunch of playtesting with, you know, I guess, like placeholder images, placeholder locations and all these types of things.

And so Alex put together the first iteration, which there is some photos of that on the Jaren's Outpost website of the very, very, very, very, very first iteration. Such a different game. And then after that we hired, so Nathan Davis is our regular like artist for a lot of what we do at Being Idiots for Nerds and Sam Smith's Radio. He's done the majority of the cover art. Like so many of the character designs and the stuff that like you you know when you think of Greg Pierce you are thinking of Nathan's sort of interpretation of that that he did this sort of he's done like a lot of the art for that he's done the front cover as well for the game and so

we hired him to do more say some of the the items and the like the layouts the design and layouts as well is at a time because, he went and got a very fancy job, probably can't mention where he is working now, maybe I don't know. Oh, who knows, dude. I don't feel. And, blah, blah, blah. Best not, I guess.

Anyway, he went, oh, today's done, like, you know, bigger, better things. So it was like, I didn't want to kind of inundate him with doing all the character designs. Cause I mean, it's a lot of art. It's a lot of art for something, especially for the game we made. Yeah, and so Ralph Atenasia, or Ralph America, if you listen to, I guess, a few of our other shows on the network,

he did all the character designs. And so it was like we needed a bunch of different NPCs, and we needed a bunch of different playable characters. And a lot of the stuff we also didn't end up using or like once it was done like actually can you kind of redo this version this version this version I definitely feel like the way we sort of designed this board game and in later episodes we'll go into more detail about like this sort of more specific you know parts of designing a board game but I just know that we did it ass backwards I just know that if somebody who's been doing this for their career for you know their whole lives found out how we made this board game. They would be like why did you start there?

I don't know because we didn't know we were doing not that 100% Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think like since you know making this like going on and when watching a bunch of different like Like you know how to make a board game like how to play test the board game I had to do this kind of stuff and be like that would have been cool. Yeah, but also in some weird way I feel like we were You know like sort of unfettered by the ideas what a board game should be you know what I mean? I think in some way that it was oddly beneficial when it was beneficial Yeah, and then I think yeah as we actually started to figure out what we were doing then that was useful Yeah, so that was the first iteration.

And then, yeah, we got a, after getting the art done, and then there's a Spanish, I think Spanish artist, Nuno, he did all the location art as well. And so like with that, you know, the idea of like, you know, sharing the load in terms of like, the different art that we needed, was kind of like why we got like three different artists. We're was kind of why we got three different artists. We're so lucky as well that those three different artists,

I think, have made something very cohesive. I think that it's really risky in a situation like that that you're gonna be like, well, these look like they come from different board games, but they don't. And everybody that's played it sort of has had the same sentiment. That they're like, oh, it feels,

because it is, like a cohesive whole. Yeah, so that, but then I think this thing happened with making this board game, where the initial design, we were like, we love the skeleton of this, but some stuff about it, maybe we wanna change, and we wanna sort of adapt, and then that began this very slow process of transforming that initial prototype, that very basic prototype,

into the current immeasurably playable game that we have today. Because it went from that very, very first prototype with a placeholder imagery and everything like that, to then getting a very first prototype printed. Yes, yeah, yeah. And that, it had like, I think it was rectangular location instead of the current square where they're at.

And it had all these like certain rules and like there were certain things that have definitely been like cut. Oh, absolutely. And I remember playing it, like we played it once because like I remember Alex kind of came over and was like, here it is, look, play it as much as you want. You know, kind of work out what works what doesn't

And like you need to do a really great job of those initial rules that you could kind of then what we end up Like you know hanging a lot of yeah, what has become this game and it was like after playing it a few times It was like okay. Yeah, we have notes. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm Lee some like Yeah, the skeleton which is the movement set of like planning your movement has remained all the way through. Absolutely, it's remained extremely consistent. That one core, but that we've built on that and we've sort of changed the way the game initially played.

So an extremely basic, I suppose rundown of how the game works and what the aim is, is that you pre-program your movement with the intention of Completing as many quests as possible and defeating as many NPCs as possible sort of So that by the end of the game by the end of the seven days you will have the most prestige points But they're sort of part of the kicker of that is that everybody's going for the same quests So I think there's like a weird element of poker to it as well where you will have more than one quest that you need to you know that is available to everybody every day and so you're like well I'm pre-programming my movements

but is Zammet going for the same quest I am? Do I need to be wary of him? That kind of thing. But the initial version had which which I can see why Alex did this but it had like you selected the quests and then you selected the NPCs and the items. Because I should say, most of the quests involve collecting an item and taking it to a location or collecting multiple items or visiting multiple NPCs. But yeah, the initial version was like, you pick the numbered NPCs that are gonna be in this,

you basically set up a scenario for yourself. the numbered NPCs that are gonna be in this, you basically set up a scenario for yourself. Yeah. There was this, cause the, I guess, what you're playing on is the Jaren's Outpost city, which is made up of 25 location tiles. And with, you know,

on those location tiles, you have an NPC and an item. Yes. And the very first iteration was, you just had those 25 items and those 25 NPCs and those 25 locations. And that was the playing field. But we'd also got like art that was a bit more than like just those 25 items, those 25 NPCs. And so when you got, you know, you had a bunch of missions that were all handed out, and then it was like, okay, cool. So you had to then find like whatever the missions that were there you grab those correlating like NPCs and

yes yeah yeah from the you know the deck and you put them into the game and then once everyone's done that you then add as many new items and to make up 25 and as many yeah it's just with so many extra steps. A lot of setup, a lot of setup. Which is not, I mean, like a lot of board games do have that level of setup, but I think we were just like, I don't know if I wanna be doing that level of setup. Because it wasn't just like setting up of like, all right, move these cards over here,

making sure that the table is set up like this, grabbing this over here. It was like going through a deck and removing certain things. Yeah, being like, oh, I'm looking for, you know, because you would have the little quest card and the quest would have, so every NPC and every item had a number on it, and the quest would have the numbers that you needed, so what that left you doing is like, you're like, what do I need? Oh, 227, and you'd be like, okay, 227, flicking through it, oh, there's 227, and it just

kind of, you know, and that's like a thing. It's kind of cool that we immediately like clocked out of something we didn't want in the game because I think so much of developing it is figuring out what's fun and what's not fun and figuring out what is streamlined and quick and and simple and what is complex and maybe kind of unwieldy and and sort of like kind of weighs down the game and so I think that was a sort of beginning of like a no you know what this is not quite what we want but don't get me wrong that I mean like when was that that would have been like what 20 let's say let's call it 29 no 20 no

early in that would have been like 2017 maybe like that that was 2017 and then you know it took us until now before we're like oh we figured out the game Yeah, it's been six years. No, it's been no. It's been more than six years And I think part of the reason that it has taken so long And we might do a whole episode on this later on or who knows but part of the reason is that it's just it's it's never been our main focus because Unfortunately just couldn't be yeah So that made that piecemeal. We had to find the time amidst all of the other podcasts that we're recording and,

you know, find the space to be like, we should, we got to sit down and figure out this freaking game. It was in between like, you know, doing UK tours, in between, you know, putting out podcasts, various many different ones. And then, you know, COVID happened, which was like weirdly harder and easier in a weird way because we were able to use Tabletop Sim to be able to like, all right, cool.

Let's import everything in and let's go. Plus you have a lot of time. Like what else am I doing? All right, let's figure it out. But like the problem of Tabletop Sim was like, well, if you wanted to make changes and you can't really kind of make them on the fly or like you really want that tech title.

Oh absolutely, like even with the, you know, the game is complete now and we still, obviously we're still playtesting stuff and you know, figuring stuff out, but even with the complete game and tabletop sim perfectly working, still somehow I want to feel the cards. I don't know, I don't know what it is, that's a funny thing. It's great that like, you know, that exists and you can do it. You can do that with all these different kind of videos like board games. But this is I don't know. Yeah, it's just not like I like board games. You kind of want that. Billy to pick up a piece. Absolutely. Like the card and have a look at it. Yeah. Rather than what's the zoom button again? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, I'm lost. Somehow I've set my base grounders under the table. I do that so often, I don't know why. Yeah, so it has been a slow development process.

And I think part of that as well is that what happens is, you know, like I remember there's a period, was it like last year, no, the year before maybe, where we were like, let's dedicate a month. Let's dedicate a month to it, which was really valuable because we got a lot done. But we had to do a lot of work to be like, all right, we need to have all

these plummings, all this DND, all this basis, all this thumb crimps, blah, blah, blah, blah, and all this done by this month so that we can go basically, this is our full-time job for a bit. Um, and there is also something I would say about like leaving it alone and having a think, cause like that's very, pretty valuable to be like, yeah, this is a problem over here, or was that fun, or how can that be a bit better, a bit streamliner, a bit interesting, or whatever?

And so being able to walk away and, again, have that shower thought. Yeah, oh, totally. Oh, that would be interesting. What if we included that here? What if we included that there? And so those have been quite useful. Yes, I agree.

It's a real double-edged sword. I wanted agree. It's a real like double-edged Sword I want to take coin all coins are double-edged They're double-sided. What is a side? We'll have three anyway, but but in that you have that yeah, there's that great you get that distance from it So then also when you come back and you start playing and you're like, oh, this isn't fun Like I was too close to it I couldn't realize but also you come back and you're like what was, this isn't fun. Like I was too close to it, I couldn't realize. But also you come back and you're like, what was the problem that we were trying to fix last time?

And then you play a game and you're like, oh, that's right. But you need to have that like, that kind of period of getting into the game and figuring out what the hell you were focusing on last time, what still needs to be fixed and stuff like that. So in a way, it's a miracle we got here. But it's also, it's spectacular that we did and I could not be more proud of the final product.

It's really cool looking at this game and playing it and being like, wow, it's fun to do, fun to play and we did this and it plays kind of like how we really wanted it to. Yeah, absolutely. Which is that, all right, cool. Like another thing that we did, which was maybe stupid, which was that when we had the player characters,

we wanted each one to feel a little bit different. Yes, yes, yes. Because we're like, you know. We were playing a lot of Root at the time. Yeah. And Root, for those who don't know, is an asymmetrical board game, which means that every player, every sort of player,

or character that you can pick, plays completely differently to every other one. And we were kind of Root obsessed. Ooh, and how. And so when we started properly getting into it, every sort of player or character that you can pick plays completely differently to every other one. And we were kind of rude obsessed. And so when we started properly getting into it, we were like, could we make it so that every player feels different, like has kind of a different vibe? And if you're adapting the campaign that we did.

Oh, well, absolutely. Yeah, it was like, you know, Perry Winkle is very different to Greg Pierce, he's very different to Leo. So it's like, well, you know, they probably should feel. And so that was the kind of it's like, well, they probably should feel. And so that was the kind of basis of like, you know, like this character, you kind of break it down.

What are they, who are they? And kind of like, how can you gamify that in a board game? And go from there. That's a very cool process, I think, of being like, right, okay, Greg Pierce, Greg Pierce famously, slippery, big cock deal. Okay, what have we got to work with? Well, we've got his movement, we've got his health,

we've got his stats and we've got his special ability. What with these as our sort of like the framework, how do we make him feel different to every other sort of character? Which is a cool process and it's cool to be restricted like that. But it also means infinitely more work to make every character feel different as you start to balance them all out.

Yeah, you're like, okay, is that powerful or is that this was fun to play. I'm always coming last. Yeah, exactly. Fun to play. I am leaps and bounds ahead of everyone. I've lapped everyone. Yeah. So it's that kind of like, you know, balance and there's like, for the longest time, I mean, getting into it in probably like, when we go into character development, I guess, a bit more in depth, but like, for so long,

we just kept having this thing on our like, Slack or whatever, which was the heading of like, what do you do with a problem like knock-knock? Yeah, absolutely. Cause we just, it was like the last character. She was just a thorn in our side for so long. So long, it's like the last character of the original, like, you know, before we wanted maybe to look at expansion characters,

which was the last character we wanted to make. We had to nail on. And we wanted her to be a little bit more powerful. So we wanted her to be kind of beefy and like strong. And so she ended up being this tank and she ended up just decimating the board. Every single time she would win. And again, this comes down to that like limited time to play because you know

It's not it can never be or at the time it could never be our focus or whatever You would be like you play a game and knock knock would win and you'd be like, okay Well that makes it feel like she's overpowered But we can't play enough games to know that was just an outlier because the game does have quite a bit of R&G in Terms of like NPC placement item placement location Location placement, you know, which which obviously works I think to the benefit of the game because it means that every game feels completely different But it also means that if you're doing a game with knock-knock you're like, was she just lucky?

Yeah, I don't know. Was she just lucky because we made it the skill quite low Yeah, then you know these points that person. Like they just got a lucky roll. Yeah, exactly. They probably wouldn't have got that many points. I definitely remember one game we did where Dusha was helping us play test, and he as Knock Knock was like, I'm just gonna stay in this corner and fight people.

And we were like, Okay. All right. And I think he didn't win, but he came second. No, no, no, he lost. He lost? He lost quite a lot. Well then that's extremely, yeah. Well, that's no, he lost. He lost? He came last?

He lost quite last. Well then that's extremely, yeah. Well that's the kind of thing where you're like, well does that mean Knock Knock's okay? Or is Dusha a bad player? Was he unlucky? Was it because he decided to focus all of his attention in this corner?

Yeah, and then that's another thing as well. Who knows? When you're play testing with a group of friends, and usually it's like, you know, me, you and Adam was basically like the core. We developed it really. Constantly playtesting, it's just the three of us. So we got very good at three play games.

And then you do like, you know, four players and five play games occasionally. And sometimes we used to do the two of us. And so it was like, between the three of us, there is a different way of playing a game with a different level of like how we approach it. Oh, absolutely. And that also kind of like plays into it because it's like, are we playing a game, a different level of like how we approach it. Oh absolutely. And that also kind of like plays into it because it's like are we developing a

game for like you know people who like my brain who's like I like strategy, I like doing this, I want to plan ahead and if I can do like six things in one turn I'm a happy boy. Oh absolutely. So it's like you know it's like that kind of like you know alright so I grab Magic the Gatherer, okay so this turn, I'm going to tap one of my planes, which will let me play this card, which then gives me two chips over here. Absolutely, you come out having eight turns in one. I like doing that kind of thing.

Which you do do. And it's fun to do. I move here, and because I have the coffee in my backpack, I get another move, and what? But then I've landed on Kevin's table, so that's another move, and you're like, well, why play? Whereas I'm almost the exact opposite, where I think somebody pointed this out when we used to do board on a Friday the Twitch stream where we would play board games where they were like when Jackson starts playing a board game

You can see his brain switch off, which is true. I don't have board game brain, but I Genuinely believe that it's crucial to have a player like me Developing the board game. I think in a weird way that's really valuable because I get bored easily, confused easily, and I'll want to do something stupid because I think it's funny. And those are the things that, like, that gives me joy in a board game. So I want the game to have that too. Because there are a million players like me. And I love board games but I don't have board game brains so the games got to be for

someone like me as well. And then Adam's somewhere kind of in the middle I think of the two of us. Yeah so I like it because again like what I like about this game is that there is kind of like almost that emergence. Yes yeah absolutely. Kind of happen if you sort of like you know if you know the story of Jaren's outpost you know the sort of the characters but also if you don't. Yeah yeah absolutely happen if you sort of like, you know, you if you know the story of Jaren's outpost You know the sort of the characters, but also if you don't yeah, yeah, absolutely So it happened there are like games and this is something that I think is rare in other board games

But there are I mean, it's you know, some board games do have it But there are games some board games to have it like some others do have them Anyway, did I have a coffee before doing this? I don't know. Did it just kick in then I had spaghetti before doing this No, so, is that, um, uh, there are games we reminisce about. There are games that had, like, enough narrative to them, just through the sort of emergent RNG gameplay, that were like, remember that time? Or like, you know, remember when Adam did this and pulled this move out of there?

And even when we've playtested it with people, we playtested it at, um, a fortress in Melbourne, um Melbourne a while back last year and games that happened there we were like that's what an awesome story just the way people you know we're screwing each other over and trying to get ahead and stuff like I think that's awesome I think that's such a cool thing we've managed to do. We played Ticket to Ride Legacy version and again it's like a legacy game. It was a very fun experience. You came dead last. We figured it out that if you hadn't played, if you didn't play at all, the random fifth person who just didn't turn up to any game, they just take the base average would have beat you. But there were those moments where you're like I'm going to for this year instead of do I'm gonna go and hunt for treasure.

Yeah because the way Tickets Ride Legacy works is that every game the winner gets to pick a new part of America to expand into and build your trains into. One of them was the Sierra Madre and I was like bro I'm getting that treasure. I'm ignoring whatever shit we unlocked this year and I'm getting that treasure. And every time it came to my turn, they were like, well, we know what you're going to do. But did I get the treasure? No, but I had a whale of a time. You got it once.

And how sweet it was. But it felt good. The victory points didn't matter. It was a moral victory. And it was great. It felt amazing. And so it's like's like yeah so you having like with players who play like that where they're not really disrupting the game because you also

do get players like who will disrupt games and like I think again Tiktok ride's a good example of that to be like if you want to ruin your friend's day make sure you get this thing this thing like this line this line this line because that just kind of upsets everybody you You don't need these ones to win. No, but it'll be everyone else's life Yeah, there's definitely people out there who like that as they're disrupting anything But there are also people out there who like I am a bit of a chaos merchant Yeah, maybe I will inadvertently like screw you over partly because I'm having a fun time Yeah, exactly and like you are definitely that to it. that to it too. But also there's quite a few games,

I think you have your such great board game brain that you win 99% of the games. But I've come second plenty. Yes. You know what I mean? And I think that's amazing as well, that I can come into this game with my wretched board game brain and still be competitive. Like that's pretty amazing.

Yeah, because half the stuff is like, yeah, there is like this orangey. And also because every character is different, you just find the one that you like playing as and you know, you develop different strategies or whatever. Yeah, and that's the kind of thing I really like about it is that every character can do everything. So like, I guess like to pair it really down, it's like the way you get those victory points is by competing quests and defeating notable NPCs that are worth prestige. And those are the two core ways to gain that prestige. And all those quests,

you can like pick up and basically you deliver something. Or you're either delivering an item, you're delivering a person, or you are going to a certain location. Or sometimes you are defeating people. And like, you know, whatever it is. And every single character can do it all. It's just, there are certain characters that are better at doing the moving around the board. There are certain characters who are built towards defeating people. There are certain characters who are better suited at just like, you know, being able to churn through items and NPCs. Well, absolutely, and I think part of that is so, for example, and again, it's hard to explain a board game through just audio,

but so defeating the surgeon, people will remember the surgeon from the campaign that's an NPC in the game that's worth prestige because they're notable and they've got the highest sort of damage output and health, I think, in the game or at least equal to someone else But anyway, so if you're saying parry or knock knock, you've got a good base damage So you can go in there and you got a good health you could go in there just wail on them Whatever you're probably gonna you know, if you're lucky you might be able to take him out just like that We've balanced it so that you probably need to pick up some weapons to do it But if you're Leo Leo is very good at picking up items,

and some items you can discard to do damage. So you can be competitive no matter what. Leo could theoretically pick up a bunch of daggers, and you've done this before, roll in using your very sneaky movement, throw all of your daggers at the surgeon to do enough damage to defeat him, and then fuck off out of there

So that you've done the same thing. So yeah, every quest is very doable and we've tried to make it Yeah doable for every NPC, but every people are weighted. Sorry every player character, but you know, yeah, they are weighted Yeah, and I like what you can do there is that you can really tailor it to what you want to do Yeah, the quests there they are you can really tailor it to what you want to do. Yeah. Because the quests there, they are. Guaranteed winner by 11 p.m. every day 19 plus and physically located in Ontario gambling problem call 1-866-531-2600 or visit connectsontario.ca So that games only guarantee void of platform or game outages occur guarantee requires played by at least one customer until jackpot is awarded or 11 p.m. Eastern research and supply see full terms at Canada.casino.famil.com. Please play responsibly Visible for everybody

The way that it works is that it's the amount of players that are on at the table plus one. So for a three player game, four quests. So the four quests are always there and the moment that quest is done, another one takes its place. And we've got a lot of quests. So the ability to kind of like play this game again and again to sort of get different quests, it's going to be very different. So it's always very fun. I find it is like depending what character I'm playing because each one is very different You're like, okay. What are the quests? How can I do them? And

Is that worth doing or should I just go barbarian mode and maybe just pick up some? Oh absolutely items and just kind of go Ham on whoever's on the board with some prestige and it's like, okay cool Well, I can possibly get this one like that quest done But I have to work for it. I gotta go all in. And so you end up like, you know, spending like some of your turns, I gotta grab this, I gotta grab this. That's close to me.

That's gonna be good. That location, well if I pass like, it's like a skill check then, then that's great because that means I can do X, Y, and Z, and then I'm all in, and I get that victory point because if I get that, that means he doesn't get that, which means I get it, stopping them, and I move up. Yes.

And in the next fight, you know, you do that, right, you know, you try and do that, and it's either like you succeed, and you're get that yeah, which means I get it stopping them and I move up Yes, absolutely next thing you do that right? You know you try and do that means it's either like you succeed and you're like, yeah Okay. Now I'm down to like three house. Yeah Across the board all the other quests are on the other side I gotta make it over there or you get the almost the exact opposite of that and this is always good where The new quest comes out and it's something like drop pop a little low off at the little low estate and you're like Where am I currently? Oh, I'm on the Little O estate. Oh, who else is here?

Oh, Papa Little. In one turn, I can complete this quest that took somebody else, you know, multiple to do. And you're like, hey buddy, like, look, you're right here. Absolutely. Why don't you have a seat? And then also, you know, part of the game, and we will go into this more in a future episode, part of the game is we wanted that sort of back stabby,

screw each other over vibe that the Jaren's Outpost campaign has. And that was a really difficult thing to balance and again we will talk about sort of finding the fine line between fun and annoying. Is this fun or are you being a dick and are you making this fun for us? Yeah, exactly. That, when I said that there was a story that came out of doing it at Fortress, that story involved an item which is called the Rock of Whoops, which will make somebody fail a role. And one player had figured out a strategy to just basically continue, they were just lucky enough the RNG worked in their favor, they could

just continually pick it up and fuck up for their friend. And their friend, you know, and again, it's that fine line, but I think it was incredible just to watch him be like I'm not gonna win because he was losing but I can make sure your last turn sucks yeah it's like I'm not gonna win but you're not gonna win by a lot yeah exactly and yeah they want to like on this like location which means you can like you know go through the item deck yeah and grab an item and so yeah every time you'd be like all right rock of war through the item deck and grab an item. And so, yeah, every time we'd be like, all right, rock of warps, roll for it. Yeah, I got it.

All right, buddy, what are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? Do you roll to try and complete that quest? Yeah, I guess. Oh, rock of warps. Oh, okay, only your next turn you can do it. What are you doing your turn?

I'm gonna search the item deck for the rock of warps. Oh, you passed my skill check. I get it again. It was so funny to watch. Yeah. but again, that's that fine line and some people, you know, they don't love necessarily that kind of you know Again, that's a fine line But yeah, but in terms of victory points in terms of you know Part of it is screwing each other over and snaking that Quest out from underneath somebody and leaving them high and dry and they've got it now sort of think on their feet

Yeah, there's a lot of improvising and a lot of, you know, yeah, kind of dealing with the blows that you're dealt and trying to come up with new strategies, which again, feels very much like, I think, the campaign that it's all based off. Yeah, I do like that ability, because like when we first, the quest initially, it was you either like just had them, right? So it was like, it was

kind of like, after you kind of got everyone to like, you know, all the numbers in a row of like, yeah, who's in what and put them all out. The quests were dealt out. But they were like a private thing. And they were only for one person. And so it was this kind of a thing of like, I have this quest, you have this quest, Adam has that has that quest and then let's see what happens and there wasn't that much interaction no and it was it was a lot of fun but it felt very much like we are playing a single-player game and my two friends are just happen to be here yeah so then we're like okay how do we do this well okay what if it was a like you know you are you share your quest with the person to your right yeah that's right I was

like okay cool so then it was like well well me and Adam share your quest with the person to your right. Yeah, that's right. I was like, okay cool So then it was like well, well me and Adam share a quest. Yeah But you know, it's like okay, that's kind of nice let's try that out and that sort of worked for like a three-player game But then we were like, I like try with a four-player game. It's like, okay. Well, I'm never interacting. Yes Yeah, the person opposite me. I'm just not you don't worry about it. Yeah, you're like, okay, okay, okay And then we're like, well, what if that's good everyone can share the quest Yes, to make this mad like this mad cap to be like, okay Everyone needs to like a scramble to get it and then that kind of really is that clicked and there's so many moments like that So many screwed what if this is how we did it and it was like, oh my god March

This is how we should have been doing it the whole time. Yeah That's like, you know, I said it the earlier on there's like an element of like no poker really but of reading the other players and Knowing what they're the kinds of people they are and the skills they have them being like Well, this is like a quest where you have to defeat like a high-powered enemy and I know that you know Zam is playing knock-knock. So he's probably gonna go for it So maybe I avoid it or maybe I try and screw Xamarin over so he can't get to it in time. But all of this was such a learning curve

to figure out that that's what the board game was, which is such a funny thing, but that really is how it works. Because I could go in there and quickly snake the quest so I could do the final killing blow or the defeating blow, and then I get the points and they did all the work, but I got the victory. Yeah like just quickly like, you know, pick them up and throw them somewhere else because you're like, well, if I, if you look, if I can't take it, you can't either.

So, hey, the best, that's the best move is for no one to win. Nothing more satisfying than playing is Greg Pierce, whose special ability is the ability, they get a lot of interacts, which Phil will explain at some point, but which means it's very easy for them to pick up NPCs. Nothing better than somebody who's been wailing on a high powered NPC the whole time. You roll in, pick up the NPC, instantly discard them, send them back to the NPC deck, and you're out of there.

And that person just looks at you like, you've wrecked my life. Why did you do this? Why would you do this? And there is just like this nice moment where you're like, you know, you're so powerful, you've kid like this nice moment where you're like, you know, you're so powerful. You've kidded yourself up and you're like, yeah! You know, it's like, I can't really lose.

The only way that I could possibly mess this up is if I roll a one. What's the odds of that? What's one in six? What are the odds of that? And like, you get a cock of a walk, you start rolling around, you're trying to like, you know, clean up. And of course, you're like, roll one, roll one, roll one, roll one. And as you're rolling one and you're failing, you're trying to like you to clean up and of course you like roll one roll yeah as you're rolling one and you're failing you're taking damage and it means you like you're dropping like you all your beautiful items like that's good I was so powerful now I'm a weak little boy oh no oh that's good

yeah and there's like you know like Leo or Greg Pierce who's got like you know nice next I know yeah yeah yeah how to picking people up, throwing things down and you're like, wow, I feel so weak, I'm so powerful. Absolutely. It's great. And you know, yeah, in those moments you can somehow still snake the victory if you're clever and you use the board and use the items, you know, in interesting ways or whatever. But yeah, it has truly been a real experience to figure out, and it has kept coming back, I think, to that idea of like, what's fun though? What's enjoyable to do in this game? Like, obviously you figure out,

and I think this kind of outworked, figure out the game, and that takes long enough, because you've got to be like, does this work? Is this a fun idea? You spend like, you know, three to four development sessions with one particular rule or mechanic in mind, and then by the fifth, you're like, you know, three to four development sessions with one particular rule or mechanic in mind, and then by the fifth, you're like, actually, that's not fun, and you gotta get rid of it

and go back and start at the beginning again or whatever. But once the game is down, and I think the game was down like two years ago, really, something. By a large. Yeah, by a large, we were like, oh, this is the game. Then you're like, okay, now how do you make it fun? You know what I mean? Okay, this is the game, it's done. This is how it okay, now how do you make it fun? Yeah. You know what I mean? Okay, this is the game. It's done.

This is how it works. But how do you make it so that every game is fun and every game is enjoyable? And you know, finally there. I remember like a big fear for me sometimes was the, the like, okay, cool. Every game, cause we have things like, you know, every game is stratagems and it's not, which is the idea of like, every game is so complicated and convoluted and requires so much like Explanation that you just kind of almost get lost in that source of like oh, yeah, absolutely After like the second paragraph where they're explaining what you do with your wheat and you're just like I don't know what the hell

You're saying six week token. Yeah, you can trade for either Yeah, either wood or for grain, But during the winter cycle when this is flipped over, you're like, I shut up. Like my favourite one is the scythe. Oh yeah. Which is just like the on your turn you can like do the top row action or the bottom row action. You can do either or both or none. You're like what? You're like I don't know what you mean. I can do either. Fine. I can do both. Okay. Or none. Does that just mean I skip a turn? Why would I do that? Why would I do that? I don't understand. Which I think is very beautiful. Oh yeah. And I think, you know, there was a period of time where this was stratagems because I think probably also in development there has to come that that the kind of like wave of rules before you

strip it back yeah what's worthwhile and what's not but I know what you mean I had the same fear as well because when you'd sit people down during that period of time you'd get those looks of like oh I think I get it can I do this and you'd be like no sorry and they'd be like oh I feel like I should be able to do that yeah okay okay but then we hit the point now where people play and they're like, oh, yeah, cool. I get it Yeah, I'm across. Yeah, it's really cool. Like when you look at say scythe where we like what what is game? You're like, well, it's alternate reality But I was like that kind of like I was again very afraid to be like we're making this too complicated

We're making this like extremely like this thing, this thing, which is like, we're first time like, yeah, yeah, absolutely. We're making this way too complicated. And so it was just like, okay, cool. And having those, uh, I guess play testing with like, you know, people who are external to us and people who are very external, as in like we'd never met them before in our lives. Um, and like play testing this.

And I think what really helped was like leaning into those, yeah, actually you can. Yeah, absolutely. I 100% agree. For example, like it used to be like, so every character gets seven movements and you get your basic four and then everyone has like three unique. Yes. And so the basic four was like forward, left, right, reverse. And so everyone on turn one wants to move forward and then they want to do a thing.

Yeah. Yeah. So for the longest time it was like, no, sorry. Doing a thing is a turn. Doing a thing is like an action. Yeah. Because again, you're leaning into, you know, D&D. Yeah, of course.

Yeah. And a lot of respect there because it's like, well, yeah, D&D has these like, you know, D&D. Yeah, of course, yeah. And a lot of respect there. Because it's like, well, yeah, D&D has these like, you know, action economy, these turns of what you have to do, and like, you know, can you do this? Can you do that? Can you do this?

And so it's like, well, yes, it's like, you know, in D&D, it's like, I want to attack twice and use my bonus action to second. Yeah, yeah. And so a lot of that kind of stuff was like, you know, kind of coming from that. So it's like, well, in your turn,

you can, you know, either do this, this or this. But like, it's all, right? Yeah, so it was like, you know, kind of coming from that. So it's like, well, in your turn, you can, you know, either do this, this or this, but like it's all right. Yeah. So it was some of the car, you know, move or you can interact or you can attack and you would have people, so many people like the very first move was always move forward and then they wanted to do a thing. Yeah. And it was often pick up an item or interact with the location or pick up an MBC.

And so it was always, it always like so much of like, ah, sorry, no. It's just your first thing is to move forward. Which is boring. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's funny, it took us a bit to be like, yeah, actually that sucks. Yeah, actually like, yeah, why not?

Move forward, interact, perfect. Yeah, you know what, we'll do that. And then we're like all of those basic movements, you move forward, you move left, you're right, and reverse, we're like, let's give them something. Yeah, so it's like move forward, you interact. Because that's the one that everyone was doing. And so I was like, because the interact, you move left, you're right, and reverse, we're like, let's give them something. Yeah, so it's like move forward, you interact, because that's the one that everyone was doing. Yeah. And so I was like, because the interact, you can do a lot of it. And then it was like, okay,

well then, like the left, right, reverse, whatever. Yeah. We're like, okay, because you want them to still be able to do something, but you also were like, well... You don't want to give them too much power. Too much of doing everything, because then it's like, what makes, say, Greg Pierce or Leo, like they're like cards that are very uniquely theirs to do those kind of things. You kind of don't want to take away from them. So part of it is it's like, how can you make it fun,

but also still make it unique and don't take away from over here so you're making those characters weaker. And there still is some element of like restriction makes the game interesting, you know, in a weird way, where if you can do everything, you're not excited when you get to do something unique. So.

On that as well, there's this kind of thing where it was like, when you picked up a bunch of weapons or items that like helped you pass your like, you know, attack, your hit checks, or your attack check. Like, cause you're rolling a six-sided die, if you, you know, it's like, well, if I got enough for my skill check is whatever, it's like, well, how do I, I can't fail, I cannot possibly fail.

I'm so good. If every sword I have gives me a plus one to my attack, at a certain point, there's no lose condition here. So it's like, sweet. I don't even have to roll because it's like, who cares? I cannot miss. And so that made us go like, yeah, that's boring.

Yeah, that's awesome. And so being able to walk through the town and be like, I hit, I kill, I'm good. Who cares? We were like, nah, let's make a one a fail. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's just that is kind of like very in D&D itself. And also it just helps with that RNG.

Yeah, 100%. It helps with that like, you don't want a slot machine that pays out every time you pull it. You want that kind of like risk. It's funny that there's this real feeling of what are they called? Something like something paths. And it's like the you can build a like a walkway for people.

Ah, yeah. But there are like, I wish I could remember the name of them. Desire paths. Desire paths, yeah, which means you can build a walkway for people, but people as like a kind of collective animal will pick a path they want to go even if it's not the specific path that you've laid out. So a classic example of this is you think of like a right angle. Mm.

And so it's like a path going, you know, like down, then a path going across. Yeah. And, you know, it's the bordering a park. Yeah. And like someone wants to go across. And so they just kind of do this. Everyone will do a diagonal across the exit path. Yeah, just to cut across.

And so then they're like, okay, city council will then put a, say a bench in the way. And so people will then go around the bench. And so then they'll put like, say a path, like a hedge. And then you'll see people climbing over there. You're making like a move. And so it's like, you can either work with it or you can try to like- Keep fighting it. Keep fighting it.

And I think we were like, let's work with it. Yeah, absolutely. If this is what people want to do, if this is what people, you know, what would make the game fun for them, let's allow it. Yeah, and like this came quite late in the sort of development. We were like thinking about like,

cause with the NPCs, there is like hostile NPCs and friendly NPCs. And so there's like some variation of like, what's the difference here, et cetera. And towards the end, towards the end it was like again we were getting to cutting rules because like is this fun it was yes idea of like ah nah stuff or whatever let's just like cut this rule yeah so like you know in this kind of weird instance like it don't worry about it yeah I think it was like initially picking up an NPC for friendly they'll trust you, they'll follow you, it's

fine. For a hostile NPC, you had to roll a skill check to pick him up. And that was like, is that fun? Was that kind of like, we're chucking down an extra kind of thing, we were rolling. It kind of slows down the gameplay a little bit. So we're like, actually, you know what, let's nix it. And so I was like, oh, is there going to be any difference? Like, nah, nah, nah, nah, whatever. You just pick someone up, it's fine. And then you could see when people were playing it and they didn't know, like, you know,

they're like, okay, cool. Well, I want to pick up an air, like, oh, this hostile NPC, I want to pick them up because, yeah. So what happens? You're like, oh, nothing. And they're like, oh, okay, cool. Yeah, I thought they'd want to... Which is funny where you're like, oh you want consequences for this, okay. Which makes sense because you know, in the visual language of the game, the big ogs, which are like hulking orcs,

they look dangerous. So in the visual language of the game, you think I'm putting that guy in my backpack, he should hit me. Yeah, he should hit me. He seems aggressive. So like, you know what, fair enough. Yeah, yeah, you can hit you, that's fine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, all right, let's see how that goes. There has been a lot of that desire paw thing. But then also there is the flip side of that, which is like the, you don't wanna give people too much of what they want. No. You know what I mean?

So it had, again, it's all a very delicate balance. And like in the process of making this, we've gone through so many different rules, so many different, somebody will suggest something and we'll like put it in the game. And so many different rules, so many different, somebody will suggest something and we'll like put it in the game and then, you know, after a bit, we're like, actually, that was a bad idea, take it out walls is a great example. My favorite example is walls. We were play testing this and because it was all about like, you know, your pre-programmed movement and someone was like, why don't you put in

some walls? You can kind of have corridors. And me and you, Jackson, we loved it. We loved that idea so much. Oh my God, walls, that's genius. We were like, this is great. You've added such a fun idea to the game. Oh my God. It was this kind of thing because we'd been playing it for so long.

We were like, we want a bit of hard mode. Yeah, exactly. I wanted a bit of hard mode. And so this idea of like, sick, we can like make these things so you can't just leap over a wall. Yeah. Makes these corridors. So if we're chasing someone, we're moving these things. And it feels like it feels like you're building because it was, you know, the idea with the walls is that you placed it at the beginning of the game. Yeah. So you built these streets and it was like, oh, I need to get to the, the, the, I don't know, the,

the guard house or whatever, but it's down this alleyway, so I'll get down there, but then I'm trapped and I have to turn around and go, what fun. And then- And so then we played that for so long and we built the whole character, like Periwinkle, because we designed him all around walls and we're having a lot of fun with this because it was like, yeah, at the very start of the game, you know, everyone places down like two walls, Periwinkle, because he's's all wall based guy. He's the wall guy He gets three walls and so you end up making these like cool little corridors like either and then we start up

I think we went back to like we started playing it with Alex again and Alex was like why would I do this? Yeah, why would I segment off a whole section? He's what is it for me to get here and you're like, yeah. Yeah, but it's fun It's kind of fun to make and you're like, uh, and then he was like, well, maybe you can go through, or maybe you were like, maybe you can go through your own wall. He was kind of like, well, what do you think about like in terms of the narrative of it all?

Hey, you know, you have like built this wall, but you, maybe you know where you built it, you know, a secret passage that you can go through. Cool. And we even had, we even had items that helped you get over walls. Like the grappling hook used to be, use it to get over a wall. Like we were all, we loved the wall. And then like having the ability to kind of go through the wall made it not as fun and boring.

And it was like, well, why do I even care then I guess if I could go through my own wall? And then we were like, maybe you can get a thing that lets you go, eh. And then we were like, I guess actually, don't worry about walls. I guess like the walls are fun, but only for us. And a funny thing about that is that I think one of the reasons we were reluctant, I guess actually, don't worry about walls. I guess like the walls are fought but only for... And a funny thing about that is that I think one of the reasons we were reluctant to get rid of it was that we had based so much of the game on it.

So it was like, well, if you get rid of walls, it's not just like, well, don't worry about walls. It's like, well, then we need to redesign Perry and we need to figure out what the grappling hook does if it doesn't let you get over a wall. And so that makes you very reluctant to change very reluctant to You have to kind of accept You know what like you walls don't work walls don't work because even though for us who've been playing that game for so long And for like, you know really into it and like we were so close to it Yeah, and adding this element which seemed to us made this like cool idea of like pathing made the programmatic like, you know Movement kind of work a bit and we were like that makes so much sense Yeah, and then just it just took one person to be like, but why why would I ever make this game harder?

Yeah, what is the advantage of putting and then yeah sure it's a O RNG and sure like you take it in turns sure But why would you ever do that? You're gonna just you end up screwing yourself over. Why would you make like box something off? And you're like, oh good for the fun. I don't know. It's funny But and it's also that's one of those times where we had to come on the side of, this is frustrating not, you know, like I was saying before some things, you know, what's that fine line between frustrating and fun?

And that was like, cause I remember even saying like, oh, I like it when I'm trapped down a corridor and this, the movement was nowhere near as complex at this point as well. So turning around to get out of That corridor would take you a whole day. Yeah, I like I love it I was like I was love of that and Adam was playing I'm so frustrated I hate this I hate that I'm on this side of the wall and I can see

The thing I need to get on the other side and I'm like, yeah, but now you got to turn around He's like this not fun. Oh, okay. I guess it isn't. You know, you're right. You're right. Yeah, it's been a very funny process in that way of like figuring out what works, figuring out what doesn't, making something eminently playable. For somebody who knows who we are, because it's like another consideration, you know, do you make a board game that is fun for D&Ds for nerds fans? Do you make a board game that is fun for general board game heads? Do you, and obviously we tried to synthesize sort of some combination, but yeah.

That's like a whole lot of consideration you gotta think about. I think for me it was like, okay, let's try and make this a fun game for people who just like board games, or like, you know, and then from there, for me it was like, for people who are fans of D&D's for No. Or just like, you know, or some of the other podcasts that we do, it was like,

I want to have that through like the quests, the narrative, like the rule book, like how we can try and kind of weave that in through some of the, like the flavor test. Yeah, sure, sure. Because you guys, it was like really trying to kind of inject out Us like humor. Yeah, yeah, the kind of vibe of that campaign and the dance bands and these nerds kind of into this Board game so it's like this idea of like if you know us and you've been listening to us and like following us You know over ten years Like I get that And like if you have no idea, you're like,

that's funny, whatever, I'm still having a good time. You're like, oh whatever, this guy's called Greg Pierce, hurrah, that's a funny name. Yeah, okay, whatever. Oh my God, it's Greg Pierce, I'm playing as Greg Pierce. And so there is this kind of like, yeah, again, fine. Everything was just like, you know, really threading that needle.

Oh yeah. Is this too referential? Is this too silly? You know, how, you know, trying to write down like all the rules and it's like, is this too stupid? Yes. Yeah. Cause you want to explain the rules, but you also want to kind of make them an enjoyable read. For sure. Yeah, yeah, totally. And it is funny that like, you know, that like, so one of the items that you can get,

is it, or has this been changed maybe, and I'm misremembering. Is it one of the, is it the Rusty Dagger does no damage? I think the Rusty Dagger, it's like, like all daggers, like you discard it, it'll do some damage. And if you have it in your items, it'll help you, like, it adds to your, and so it still helps you with your accuracy.

You discard it, it does zero damage. And I think that's fine. Yeah, exactly. And I love that it's still like, you can discard it for zero damage. That's an option. And so, I think even though some of that sort of stupid stuff we have,

not had to remove, but we've maybe removed to make for a better game. Stuff like walls, where we're like, it's fun to suffer. Yeah. You know? Oh, it's not. You're like, why would, you know, because you can imagine somebody coming here being like,

why would I, why even write it down if you can't use it? You're like, oh, it's funny. It's funny to do, you know? But then on the flip side, there's stuff that we have gotten rid of that's kind of the same thing. Like, I don't think this is in the game anymore, but you used to be able to,

there was a period of time we were like, what if you could throw every item for one damage? Every item could be discarded. Cause it's funny to imagine somebody throwing, say, a box of chocolates, which is one of the items, at an NPC to do damage. But- Well, it's just throwing an NPC.

Yeah, exactly. Throwing an NPC. You want to throw irky timbers at fucking PuppalittleO? You can. You can do that. But then we were like, oh, you know what? That's so much text. That's so much text that's so much for what you know so it's a it has been that really funny experience of mmm you know and that's I think just development

of anything and going into it and yeah like I get I'm like oh I really want to start like launching into like from there like a bunch of the playable characters and like they have the NPCs have changed over time. But honestly, we can save that for another episode. Because again, we have been, this has kind of consumed us for almost a decade. Pretty much, yeah. And so there's a lot to talk about. There's a lot I wanna talk about as well.

And I really could just keep going on. Absolutely, we could do every episode now in just one big 14, 15 hour, you know, whatever marathon. But we should stop ourselves. Yes, yeah, we should, we should be clever. So if you haven't by now, please head over to the Kickstarter and follow us along. We are aiming for, I think, a thousand and from the ex or and we're working with somebody

We know that I could group a team who is like they've done a bunch of other kicks out as before because once again We're like hey, we baby. How we do. Yeah, we don't know what happening help Yeah, and so like okay, and so they're very much like yeah We've done me for borghese before short well it will help you out And they're like okay cool if get to a thousand followers from there, it's like sweet, we will launch in a month. So it's like, hey, we're very close to that. So if you guys head on over to Kickstarter,

links will be in the show notes, just give us a cheeky follow. And hopefully then from that, we'll then be able to be like, hey, hey, hopefully next week, when we sit down to record, this will be like, hey guys, it's gonna be, it's gonna come out in a month.'s gonna be, here is the date. Yeah, exactly.

Here is the date. Oh, that'd be so crazy. It's actually really exciting. So please follow us along on the Kickstarter. And if you want, head over to the Jaren's Outpost website where you can check out some blogs. This will, hey, give me the kick up the butt that I need to go to those drafts. Publish.

Cause again, it's just kind of thing to be like, I don't know, we've done this thing, I am proud of it, but I don't know. The Australia has this weird thing of like tall poppy syndrome. And I guess that's like everywhere has told you syndrome where you're like, I did this thing. I'm proud of it. I don't know. I'm proud of it.

That's embarrassing. I'm sorry. Like, Hey, here it is. Here it is. It is pretty cool. Do you want to play it? We worked really hard on it very bloody It's like real cool like you know seeing it you like eating that we got a prototype and we got like it Sounds nice like feel it feels how heavy it is how weighty it is really cool But if you if that's stupid and we're stupid that's okay. I'm sorry for even bringing it up. I've embarrassed myself. Yeah, absolutely.

100%. So yeah, please, hey, head to the Jaren's Outpost website. Head to the Kickstarter. And then yeah, so from there, you can also check out some of the artwork, the characters. There is a tabletop sim link to it. I think that's actually an old version, so hopefully by the time this comes out,

that'll have been updated with the new version. So you can kind of even have a player. Get a hands-on sort of feel for it. Because again, it's a lot of fun. We really like it. We are, again, proud of this. There's so many times of this development where I kind of like stare off into the middle distance and I'm like what if we're just Reskinned were you're like dude damn that would have been clever

But we wouldn't have gotten the final product that we have again, and I really hope that those who play it Take joy and we enjoy it. Yeah, but but like you know have those little emergent stories where they're like yeah this was so cool like it was like me and like my mate we were go head-and-head and we're trying to fight the surgeon, we were taking blow after blow, he missed it he's like ah shit and then I was about to like you know I was gonna get the next turn but no one was paying attention, yeah to like Gary and Gary just comes in the room with a goddamn dagger, throws it, and he's dead. And he gets like three victory points,

and we're there. Dave was gonna win, cause he was about to drop off Laura Fillmore to the restaurant, but I just realized that I happened in my last turn to be on the short foot, home for wayward children, which meant that with a skill check, I could steal Laura Fillmore off her,

and then I could go over there and do it myself. I was right, you know, like those are the kinds of stories that you get out of it every time you play, and we still enjoy it. Every time we play it too, and we've been playing it for nearly 10 years. So that's gotta be a good sign. Well, on that note, I've been Jackson Bailey.

I've been Joel Zammet. We'll see you again next week. Bye. Bye. feeling saying I do. Who wants this last parachute? I do. Daily Jackpots, a chance to win with every spinner and a guaranteed winner by 11 p.m. every day. 19 plus and physically located in Ontario. Gambling problem, call 1-866-531-2600 or visit kinexontario.ca. Select games only.

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