D&D is For Nerds - Jarren’s Development Blog #5 – Expansions

Episode Date: March 15, 2025

Jackson and Zammit are here to talk about expanding the game! We go over some terrible ideas we had and re-purposing old ideas into brand new concepts.The Kickstarter is going live on March 18 4pm UK time, we'll be asleep little babies as it's 3am for us but that means we're going to be playing the Tabletop Simulator version of Jarren's Outpost the day before AND the day of the launch on the Sanspants Radio Twitch channel. Keep abreast of socials (the SP+ Discord and the Facebook stuff and nonsense group, everything else I hate looking at) for the exact times but atm it's roughly looking like 7pm Melbourne time on Tuesday 18 and 9am Melbourne time Wednesday 19. I'm not doing the conversions for you. I'm not your dad. If my son asked I'd do it for him. But that's it. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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amazon.com slash under the influence pod. Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the Jaren's Outposts vlog. I cannot remember what number it is. Forgive me. I apologize. Yeahpost vlog. I cannot remember what number it is, forgive me. I apologize. Yeah, okay. I'm Jackson Bailey. And I'm Joel Zamit.

And this is the show where we talk through, we do a sort of retrospective, retroactive vlog on the Jaren's Outpost board game that we've been developing that we're very, very close to launching. Yes, speaking of, we are going to be launching this Tuesday, March 18th. March 18th. Put it in your calendar right now pause the video Oh, if you're listening to it pause the audio good you Helen March 18th board game launch on Kickstarter Mm-hmm. So we've got two cheers. There'll be the base game. Mm-hmm, and then there'll be the deluxe version which will sort of it is everything in the in the base game but like some I guess enhancements to the yeah the pieces like all that kind of

stuff as well as a couple of extra things like a NPC and some some items yeah like that which will also be included in if you don't want all the deluxe stuff yeah you can actually buy you buying this as a standalone expansion to the game, absolutely. Because what we want to be talking about today, which is expansions. Because, I mean, a thing happened, you know, we developed the board game for a very long time, and then we finally hit a point, an incredibly satisfying point, like a kind of crazy point, where we were like, oh my God, the game works.

It's to, you know, 99.999% finished. Holy shit. Yeah, it's this weird thing. I think you see this like, it's like the 80-20 rule, right? Which is like seen everywhere. But also it's kind of thing of like when you get a project and you get it to like, you know, oh, sweet, you get it to 80% done and you're like, basically done. It's basically finished. We can stop caring now. We can stop putting in the effort.

Wrong. And so I think it took us a long, long, long, long time to get to that sort of point with Jaren's to be like, sweet, we're at this point now where it's done. It's finished. Finished. We're actually like, we're sorted. Yeah. Uh, we've got the characters that we want, like Leo and Pierce and, uh, Perry, Perry and Clara knock, knock. Yes.

Finished. Done. Finished. Everything works. Great. No, no more tweaking. They're good. And, uh, we, we always had the idea of wanting to add more characters.

Yeah. Um, and so when, when we first got it all, all the artwork done, everything, it was like, also we want these characters. Yeah. They were going to play characters later down the line. And we were like, sweet. And we never really touched them, but we didn't touch them, really, for the longest time.

We had for ages, like, very preliminary stats, character abilities, that kind of thing. And even some movements, I think, that we were like, yeah, that's good. We'll look at it when we get a chance, because obviously you got to balance and finish the main game first before you can do any of this expansion stuff, you know, not even just like, yeah, it's not even just balance it, like figure out like, okay, cool. This mechanic, do we like it?

This mechanic, do we like it? And as we've talked before in multiple other episodes, it's like, yeah, it's that really hacking away at certain mechanics that you're like, this is, hey, why are we doing this again? Yes. Oh yeah, the classic. Yeah. Wait, wait, why does this still exist?

This went like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And then so finally, after a long time of getting it all sorted, we're like, sweet, let's now figure out your expansion. And it was funny because we were like, okay, that's the game. We kind of took a little bit of a break really from thinking about it after we had the game, you know, finished quote unquote.

And then it was like, oh yeah, actually we've got to, it felt like the beginning of a new development cycle in a really weird way. Cause it was different. I think there's this really interesting thing. And in a weird way, kind of liberating I think, because the first time you're making the board game, as you're developing, say, Knock Knock,

you are developing the board game as well. So that it's not just like, oh, hey, make a character for this board game. It's make a character that works with the board game and the board game that works with the character at the same time. So you're in a position where if something you really like with the character you wanna keep, you can change the board game to make that work.

But in this instance, when we had the expansion characters, it's like, well, the board game is done. What are we gonna do? I think the mentality was different. It's like, what are these characters gonna do with the board game? However simple, that doesn't exist anywhere else.

And so it was a kind of different cycle or different process for me a little bit. It was like really cool idea that we had of like, we also wanted to do some like location stuff as well and like play with the locations, uh, which is also part of it to be like, all right, we want this thing, but how is this going to be too game breaking? Or is it going to be too like fiddly or whatever? For sure. And also because it's an expansion,

I think you're a bit freer to be like, well, we can do something a little bit like different here or whatever. Like people who get the expansion, I like, I don't know, if you like the base game, the expansion needs to expand on the base game. So like these locations or these NPCs, whatever, it can be a bit different,

but also it needs to feel congruous with the rest of the game Yeah, I don't it's a funny process. I get it's like, oh, yeah We're not just that but then like I maybe want to include like maybe a new mechanic Yeah, and so you start like sweet boys ideas. Oh, yeah, and then you're like, okay, so Will will rather than talking baby? Yeah, it's paired all the way back. So I Guess a good starting point would be like the characters that we wanted. And some of these, one is for the expansion and the others are stretch goals that we're going to be having for the Kickstarter. So hopefully

we hit those goals. Yeah, fingers crossed we hit those goals and anyone who buys the game will be able to play as these characters. Yes, because these will be included in the base game as it were. Expansion is a very, very specific thing with blood cultists. Yes, yeah. And so it was these extra characters that we really wanted to include. So it's Flip-Sham, Buster Keaton, and Damian Eaton, Ralph. Yeah. Evelyn Plain.

And so Flip Sham was like the easiest one. I think we actually had done her before we even like, before we took this kind of break. Yeah, cause I think there was some period of time where we were like, maybe we'll have her as a base character. And then we were like, no, she's different enough that we want to make her, she's kind of like, I don't know.

She doesn't feel like a base character. Yeah. And so it was like, okay, cool. And it just kind of like, I don't know, she doesn't feel like a base character. Yeah. You know? And so I was like, okay, cool. And it just kind of like, you know, works very well with the board. We wanted her to be a native of Jaren's outpost. So it was like, yeah, cool. Like she knows the people. She knows her way around the board. And so I was like, okay, cool. We want her to be using those locations a lot easier than some of the others. And we like the idea of her movement and then being sort of... I tried to kind of find that, okay, what's the archetype?

And I kind of went like, well, monk class in a way. Because the way that Ralph has drawn her, it's like a martial arts fighting stance. So I was like, oh, well, that's kind of, you know, for me being like, okay, we can base a lot of things. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was like, okay, well, how do we do this? And how do we kind of like incorporate that? And so it was like, we don't really have the sort of, like, again, the knight's move in chess. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of a diagonal movement.

Basically a diagonal movement. Yeah. Because we also then went like, about like yeah a knight's chest But with like with flip sham like I got cool so she can kind of like do that So she can move forward and left or right? Yeah. Yeah, you know How about like a stunning blow so where some characters? I'll move and not be able to like, you know, well, they can't get it attack. Oh, yeah, I don't take damage Like well, what about like a stunning blow where it's well she can attack if it's successful She doesn't take damage kind of stuff. So it's more of a like, you, what about like a stunning blow where it's, well, she can attack if it's successful. Successful, she doesn't take damage. And she doesn't get damage kind of stuff.

So it's more of a like, you know, a success is a success, but like, ah, failure's a failure. Yes. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. And so like, again, like we sort of almost out of the, out of the box. Like she just kind of was, I think we changed her special ability. Yeah. There was a few things where we kind of like- A couple of incarnations of her. Yeah. Like one where like, what if she was like, okay, had extra backpack space, but everything was large or-

Yes, that's right. What if it was like extra backpack space, but like you couldn't equip, say, a weapon. Yeah. Which is something that's also, we try with a few different characters. That's like the weird fun thing with like a lot of this development is that we tried it on one, like one idea with one person. Yeah, that's true. Or with one thing. And you're like, did we like this? And we're like, you kind of. But

then you go down a different route and you're like, okay, cool. And then you end up picking that same mechanic somewhere else. Yeah, it's that weird thing where you'll have a mechanic for one character that you're like, it doesn't work, it's overpowered, it feels bad. And then you're trying to figure out what to do with another character and you're like, well, let's bring that back and all of a sudden it feels good. Like it's really weird. It's almost like I couldn't really explain why that happens or what's going on there, but it's happened multiple times. Yeah. So we sort of had this idea, like, so yeah, she can't, you know, like, you know, equipping

weapons and it was just like, okay, but what does that mean? Yeah, exactly. You pick up an item, it's in your backpack, like a weapon will be there in, like, it'll make the dice roll easier. It'll add to your damage. But like if it's a large weapon, it won't. Yeah. And then also like there are quest items that she will need.

Does it, she can, she can have it for a quest, but she can't have it for a weapon. And then it was that, again, that thing of like, well, what in the game can you not do? Or like, what's a... I think for me, coming into it with these expansion characters, I have this mentality of like, what... how can we get these, you know, somebody playing this character to engage with the game? So rather than, you know, restricting or whatever being like, you can't pick up large items, it's like, well, that's maybe a fun restriction, but it means that there are items on the board

that this player who picks Flip Sham will not use. And you want people to be using your game. And that's another thing as well when it comes to like this, like you want people to like, to be interacting with everything. And when you say something like, okay, cause again, it used to be like, well, can't pick up large items.

But you want them to, you're like, well, can't, you know, well, you can't, you know, equip them. What does that mean? It's like, I will change the language to be like, okay, because again, it used to be like, well, can't pick up large items. But you want them to, you're like, well, can't, you know, well, you can't, you know, quip them. What does that mean? It's like, I will change the language to be like, well, you can't, uh, you know, it doesn't add to your stats. Yeah. Like this is getting bored. Yeah, exactly.

Like too fiddly because you're like, yeah, you just kind of like, you're like, well, what, what's this? It's just a thing I can't use in the game. And like restriction has its place, like definitely definitely but I think it's a as a Character ability you want that to feel good and overpowered and and something that no one else can do Yeah and different so I think what we settled on for flip sham is that she can once a day use a location ability Which I adore because I think that you know not always but sometimes as you're running around the map And you're picking up NPCs and stuff, you don't necessarily always think about the location that you're standing

on unless it's part of some strategy you have. Or if you are thinking about it, it's only in terms of like, oh, I need to get this NPC, but they're not in the board. Well, if I go to this location, the city gates, I can make a check to get that NPC from the item deck or whatever. So it's part of your strategy. But I love with flip sham that you might just be like, well, I'm here. I can do it as a free action.

Let's use the space. And that's so much fun. It makes you think about where you are at all times, which is cool. It was that when we first were like, okay, well, people want to do, they want to move. Generally when we were play testing and people want to go forward and do something,

which is where we're like, yeah, let's make forward interact. And then we had like left, right and reverse. And we're like, well, something should happen there as well. Yeah. It's kind of like, it's my turn now. I just move here and nothing else. I do that.

Yeah, that's boring. And so that's where we're like, OK, hey, interact with the location. Yeah. Which kind of was a nice way of doing exactly what you said. We've made a bunch of cool things that you can do. Yeah. And it makes you glad, oh, cool.

Well, I can interact with this. Yeah, exactly. You're like, well, I guess I'm here. Like I just needed to turn left, but well I've turned left to interact with location. I guess I'll interact with the location. And then that can, and that's the great thing about the game

is that could change your strategy. You could have turned left under Greg Piss's warehouse and all of a sudden you can make a skill check to get an item from the item deck. And then you're like, oh damn, what if I get, you know, I don't know, whatever it is. Or you're like reversing and you're like, Oh, cool.

I'll do a sewer. And that means I'm teleporting over. Yeah. I'm actually on this side of the board now, which is very cool. Which is also another reason that when we were started to do the other locations, which you can then like swap out, say the, um, the wooden structures of the stone buildings in, it just has more things to do in the game. So you can be like, Oh, cool.

This, this new structure does this thing. So hell yeah, let's chuck it in. And so that was Whip Sham and largely it was like, okay, cool. Absolutely of them, the easiest one to figure out. And then we had a look at Evelyn Plain, who is like this kind of like militant sort of religious combatant on a horse. Yeah. And so the artwork of hers is like, yeah, this is like a figure or riding this like

giant white horse with a banner and it looks very combative. And so we're like, cool, combat character. Yes. Combat character. And this was like, cool. It was only a couple of changes, not too many. Yeah, she was probably the second easiest to figure out. And the idea was we want this person to be on a horse. Yeah, we want it to feel like you are riding a horse.

And so I think we were talking about like, you know, what are your archetypes? And like, yeah, flip-sham monk. And we talked about Leo, he's a thief. He's a rogue. Yeah. So it's like, you know, slipping around the city, not taking damage, taking like, you know, quick like shots, maybe, you know, when like an opportunity strikes, Perry's a bruiser. Yeah. And Evelyn, in my notes, was always on a horse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Your archetype horse. How can we make it feel like she on a horse? Yeah. Um, and so it was like, well, you're fast. Yeah.

Well, then, you know, and with developing these characters as well, it comes down to like, yeah, what, what don't we have? And it's like, well, or well, kind of what don't we have? And also like, what are the sliders that you can mess around with to make your character feel different? And one of those is movement and is, is maneuverability. So I think with Evelyn, we were like, she's on a horse. We want her to be able to get from one side of the city quickly,

quicker than any other character. Yeah, and we wanted her to... Because again, we're looking at like, you're making a game, I guess, for us at least. You're sort of like looking at other games that you like. And so for us, some of the inspiration has been Scythe, Deadlands, weirdly, Root, those kind of like strategy games. And with Scythe, it was like the expansion for that game was, I believe it was like Scotland and Japan.

And it was like you leave landmine somewhere. I think it's Scotland. And it was like this idea of like, well, how do you do that? And we're like, we had no idea how to do that to our game. But we like the idea of like, well, as you go and you go around, what are you doing? And so with Evelyn, it was this idea of like, so she's fast. She's pretty good, like, at, um, like, you know, doing some damage and getting across everywhere, maneuverability, not the best because again, she's on a horse. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, so we're like, all right, cool.

Let's just, you know, have this like idea of, as she's charging through, like people are getting clipped left, right in the center by a horse. Yeah, absolutely. So we're like, all right, cool. Let's just have this like idea of as she's charging through, like people are getting clipped left, right, center. The horse is just, she's trampling people basically as she goes. And so it's like, what if you do a little tick damage everywhere you're going? So like, sure. Maybe you might have say someone like Knock Knock. Yeah.

Someone else is playing that to come in very slowly and start cleaning up. Yeah, yeah. The way Evelyn, a lot of her movements are like, move forward a space, do one point of damage to the NPC that's there, move forward another space to a point of damage to the NPC that's there, turn left and attack. So you're actually just trying to get to attack this person, presumably because that's, you know, whatever your strategy is, but you've just left a bit of damage that theoretically you could wrangle yourself and you know this is a way to play Evelyn to then clean up your own sort of trail, but also we've figured out a viable strategy because this is a funny thing that Adam tends to do when we're

doing play testing which I think is very useful where often me and you will come in and we're like I'm gonna just try and play this character and I'm just gonna try and play the game and Adam's like I'm gonna do this one strategy and see how viable it is and he was, I'm gonna just try and play this character and I'm just gonna try and play the game. And Adam's like, I'm gonna do this one strategy and see how viable it is. And he was like, I'm gonna basically play Ramora fish to Evelyn Plains, sort of like shark or whatever. So as she goes along doing tick damage, I'm gonna come up and clean up the damage

and try and get to those people first. And it was very nice to find out that that's viable but not overpowered. So it's like, well, that's just a strategy you could employ. Yeah. So it was just like, all right, cool. Because the people who have most of the characters will have a dash.

Not everyone will. If we wanted a more slower character, they just don't have a dash. But Evelyn, we're like, well, we want her to be fast. So she's got a regular dash, and then a dash, and a bitch. Yeah, like a big dash. Yeah. So she's like, yeah, that dash and then turn left or right.

So it was like really like can get around heaps, but then it's like, yeah, reversing and reverse, but like, yeah, getting turning around in a small circle is very difficult for her. And like, so one, one thing that I like that we had, because if you get someone up in a corner, so the way it works, because it's all inbound in the five by five grid of the town. So with the movement cards, it's like you have to do everything on the movement card. But if you can't go off the map basically,

you can't go off the town. So it's like say you have like move forward, interact, move forward, say an attack. So it's like, well, if you're on the edge, you can't move forward. So you're like, well, I try to move forward, say an attack, right? So it's like, well, if you're on the edge, you can't move forward. So you're like, well, I try to move forward, but I can't, but I have to interact, so I'll interact. Yeah. I try to move forward again.

I can't, but I have an attack, so I'll attack. And so what I liked about Evelyn is that if you have this idea of getting someone in a corner, you would do like, sweet, well, I do one point of damage, one point of damage, I turn, like, you know, I rotate because I can't actually go anywhere, and then I attack Yeah, yeah Just it was a lot of fun playing it as if you had just back someone into a corner and your horse And it was just very very great because and this is again to me very like it feels like you're on a horse

Yeah, when you're in that corner, you're gonna spend to turn around. It's very annoying and that's fun. It was very fun, but as a strategy, it was stupid. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Boy, it was fun and it felt great. Yeah, it was good stuff. And then I think the one thing we've changed is like,

initially it was like, oh yeah, so her ability, like yeah, it's like the best thing that was like very different for her was like, all right, once a day you can do one point of damage adjacent to you. Yes, that's true. As like a horse kick, a horse kind of doing something. And I was like, that's great and all, but it doesn't feel like you're, it feels like it should be like. Directly behind you. Directly behind you, which is nerfing it for no reason really. Yeah, but just for vibes, just to make it feel like it's truly a horse kicking backwards. But also, you know, what that means is that, say that move, that movement card we described

earlier where it's like move forward to space, do a damage, move forward to space, do a damage, turn left and attack. You can theoretically be like move forward to space, do two damage behind you, move forward to space, you know, whatever. Like you can, you can use that still pretty effectively. Yeah. That's what I like when we, again, you're talking about when we're like

really developing the game, it's like, well, when can you do a free action? Yeah. Whenever, dude, yeah. You wanna use it in between your actions? Ah! Go ahead, I ain't stopping you. Yeah.

Which is, I think makes it like a lot of fun. Yes, yeah. And like, you know, we've seen people be like, oh, in that case, sweet. Well, okay. You know, say they have a dash where it's like, you know, you move one space, something happens, you move another space.

Like, well, I move one space and then I immediately use like say, like the blink blade or whatever it is to teleport somewhere else. And then I finish off my dash here. And like, yeah, that's awesome. I love that. I love seeing people do that.

We were playing with someone, I think, and they were doing interesting stuff with the sewers and that, where they were like, it was like a dash that involved an interact in the middle maybe. And they were like, well, if I dash into the sewers, I can then dash out of the sewer in any direction. And you're like, oh yeah, of course,

that is how the game works. That's very much using, again, using that AirBot rule of like, well, if there's nothing in the rules, it says you can't do that. That's very much using, again, using that airbaud rule of like, well, if there's nothing in the rules that says you can't do that. Yeah, and it was, again, if it makes sense with the card and the movement, go ahead, yeah. It was Adam as well to be like, well, so Evelyn can pick up a person, right?

And like, yeah, and when you, so the idea is when an NPC is like in your backpack, they share the same square as you. So if you're moving forward attacking, like you're doing one point damage moving forward, like, can you do that to the person in your backpack, they share the same square as you. So if you're moving forward, attacking, like you're doing one point damage moving forward, can you do that to the person in your backpack? And it's like, well, of course you can. They are considered to be on the same space as you,

and the rules for that damage is that it happens to the space you were on, so of course. And so this idea, again, you think about this into the narrative, and like all that's really happening is like you're looking at the cards on the tables, it's doing something. But narratively, it's like, yeah, you've grabbed someone and you were dragging them behind you. Yeah, yeah, sure. Absolutely. And it takes you to a point of damage if that's how you want to look at it.

Which is like, once again, feels like horse. Yeah, it feels like horse. I am on horse this good. Yeah. And it's crazy how easy that was, really. Like, again, Flipcham kind of out the box box was sorted but Evelyn didn't take much doing like it was just like oh great this works you know like every game we play with her it's like oh it's fun it feels balanced she's competitive that's great exactly and yeah and uh so then we'll get

to the i guess we'll get here the two problem yeah problem children a weird way um before we get to sort of Ralph Moroney yeah I want to talk about the cult stuff. Yeah, it's the same thing. Yeah, sure. So I guess we'll go with Buster first. Buster Keaton. And this is like, it was meant to be like another priest. It's like an old grumpy looking guy. Yeah, he's kind of like a cleric sort of. Yeah, he's a cleric. And this was when maybe the first split between me and you and Adam. Yes, yeah, absolutely.

And I think there's this thing that happens that you've got to be wary of. And I think what happened with Buster is like, it is endemic of this, basically, is that, and it happened throughout the whole development process, is that we've played the game so much. Like, you've got to understand that we've played this game Hundreds of times like it's crazy And because of that we know the game very well and the problem that comes from that is that when you're trying to figure out Stuff to do to the game

It's really hard it becomes difficult to tell whether or not this is an interesting addition or an interesting change of the mechanics Or if you're just trying to make it different for yourself. Because you've been playing it for so long, you're like, am I just actually trying to spice it up for me, a veteran Jaren's outpost, the board game. Play it. It's the wall problem. Yeah, it's the walls again.

You're like, oh, I just need to change. And so when it came down to these new characters, I think in my head, I was like, and also this comes back to the way that I've always thought about the board game. You know, when we had down to these new characters, I think in my head I was like, and also this comes back to the way that I've always thought about the board game. You know, when we had Adam when we talked about, we were like, oh, we've been coming at this from three different angles the whole time,

which I guess we knew, but it was funny to say it out loud. But I'm always very, it's like very holistic. I'm like, what is not in the game? What doesn't exist in the game? What could you add to the game? What is here that could be exploited to be turned into something else? Yada, yada, yada.

And so I very much came a buster with like a new idea. Like I was like a new way to play the game. But the problem with that is that basically I invented another board game. It wasn't really a new mechanic. It was like a, yeah. So this was like, it's also very funny because this was like happening like as we were getting the prototype printed. And so we knew what we kind of were like, all like, it's also very funny because this was like happening, like as we were getting the prototype printed. Yeah. And so we knew what we kind of were like, all right, here's an idea. We don't really know, but like just print it, whatever it's called.

I will come up with the rules later down the track. We've got to actually play test this stuff to see if it works. Yeah. And so with Buster, you have the idea of like, okay, what if you had a player, like a character that could help others? Yes, I really liked the idea of Buster working very differently from every other player. And I still think this would be a fun something, not necessarily for Jaren's outpost, because we, you know, but there's something to this idea where you picked a champion. So you picked

another player and you were like, you are Buster's champion. And so the way it worked is that you had, you know, X amount of Buster tokens, which we just thought was a funny name. Me and you loved Buster tokens. We loved the idea of Buster tokens. Adam not so much. Adam said, I don't think that would be good. We said, but Buster tokens, it's so funny because he's an old man and it's like a token with an old man's face. And so the idea was

that you picked up an item and then you could as a free action or whatever it was Give that item to someone else with a buster token on it And then if they use that item to complete a quest you got one victory point So if they would get say three if it was like a three victory point quest But you would snake for yourself one victory point. Oh, one prestige point. Like, oh, and so slowly as you were playing the game normally, you would also be getting these little dripped points. And you know, I thought it was a sort of fun idea

that you say you're trying to get, I don't know, like Laura Fillmore for a particular quest and you see that Buster's given it to you and you're like, well, I could complete the quest, but it will give Buster a victory point. Yeah, yeah, am I gonna do anyway? So that was my idea for Buster tokens It was a cool idea And it was a thing of like initially was like a cool for completing quests and then we started being like what does that mean? Yeah, when you have say weapons or when you when you start defeating a character and say you know okay cool

So say for example like you know Someone is there they've been a bruiser. They're going like for like, say the notable NPCs that are worth some prestige. So then it's like, okay, I'm going to, I'm going to get your good weapon. Yeah. Here's that weapon from Buster, you know, you enjoy. And so say they're like, you know, whittling down and they're using your weapon and like, you know, just before like the next round that they're about

to like, you know, defeat defeat them like they take enough damage Well, they're gonna drop the sword. So they drop the sword or they discard it themselves Yeah, exactly. They choose to discard it because they're like maybe I have the one of the things like well Yeah, but I can just do one point of like damage. I'm gonna get him down to one point Yeah, discard this like item and do something. I'm Evelyn Plain and I know I'm gonna move forward and do one damage to them in the next round It's a bit of a dick move, but you can do it. You could do it, yeah. And you're kind of like, I guess yeah, it does really take the wind out of it, say. I was like, how do you like- And then like, does that count that you use this sword with a buster token on it for

99% of the damage, but you didn't use it for the killing blow? And then if you say it's just for the killing blow, what's to stop players just discarding it? And then it was like, oh, yeah, that's true, I guess. Yeah, and then- And then also we discovered in with playtesting, it was like, oh yeah, that's true I guess. And then also we discovered with play testing, it was like, well the problem is that you are spending so much time gearing up to help other people that you very rarely are actually doing quests for yourself. And because you're only getting one victory point for everyone else's theoretical two or three,

you're actually guaranteeing you're always gonna come at least seconds. Yeah, and so we just kept going back to the drawing board with that. We didn't want to drop like this benevolent guy, like this benevolent idea so quickly. And also we didn't want to drop, I mean, I personally didn't want to drop, I was like, this is an opportunity to do a different way to play the game. And this comes back as well to like my love of Root and stuff. and Root, which is an asymmetrical game, does an amazing thing where every player feels extremely different and wins in different

ways. I was like, that's so cool. How do we put this in there? And yeah. And so it was this idea of like, okay, cool. Well then what if, what if instead it was this kind of idea of like, well, miracles. Yeah. So, or like, you know, what if, what if, okay, so we limit it to like, you know Because he's moveset as well was like, oh, yeah cool. Well, I can heal one like I will heal myself

I can heal someone. Yeah, it's a benevolent thing or it's like well as I move I can you know do this but then I can maybe I can move someone else one. Yes. Yeah Yeah, and so it's like well, that's kind of fun because you can also be a dick and like move the wrong Yeah, is that, is that good? Is that good? Is that annoying? And so it was these playtesting as it were. And it was just like, okay, it doesn't quite work because then you're like, well, how many Buster tokens do you want to dole out? And so we're like, what if it's like, you know, as many players as there are sort of thing. So everyone is like, you know, well, here's a Buster token. If they use it, then it's like, you gotta take it back. But then it's like, well, cool. But if you give a weapon and someone's a bus a token if I use it then it's like you take it back Yeah, and it's then it's like well cool

But if you give a weapon and someone's a bruiser and they kind of keep using that then it's like Your whole strategy is about giving someone something. Yeah, and then it's like well, I've already given it to them and Now what else do I do? It's not like kind of like a weirdly passive way to play Yeah, and so then we're like, ah, he's he's a priest. We've got some miracle stuff. What about if we had this idea of basically he has like, mana, where it's like, well, every time he gets a victory point or defeats an NPC, he gets a bit of mana that he can then spend on things. So, oh, you know, three victory points, that's three mana points, and then he can use that

to do an extra movement. So initially, though, it was like, yeah, like, yeah, he builds up some mana or whatever, but then it's like, maybe he can cast haste on someone else. So we're talking about root, and we're talking, I think it's like the odders, who basically like, weapons dealers. Yes, yeah, yeah. Root, and so it was like, okay, well what about,

say for example, Master will have some spells or some miracles that he could do in a day. And then it's like, yeah, cool. Well, like you can use a miracle, but then it's like, so you use it. So you use haste, for example. And so you have an extra movement. Sweet. I built up my own little bit of haste. My own little miracle point. And so you use that sweet and I build that and then I can do something. And if I get three of them, I get a victory point or I get to heal the fool or something like that. And then I think we just had this I get a victory point, or I get to heal the fool, or something like that. And then I think we just had this.

And then it was just like, yeah, but then, sure, but the incentive for the other person doing that is like, I don't want to. Yeah, exactly. Because that just helps you out. I will not use that. I just want you to lose. Yeah.

And of course, this is up to like, you know, every year every table. Every table's gonna be different or whatever, but. But it was this kind of thing of like back and forth, to be like, yeah, but will you know, the measure of it all, the idea of like, I would never. Why would I use that ability if I know it's gonna benefit you?

It's not enough. And then I think we just kind of had this realization cause we were, you know, and we'll get to Eaton as well, but this philosophy I think of like, how do you change the game? We kind of went into Eaton too. And I think we just kind of had this moment We were like kind of like what are we doing? Yeah?

Like so the next one was just like okay cool like what gave the miracle points that helped him Yeah, they helped Buster. Yeah, and so we were like, yeah Yeah, it's not kind of thing of like, you know, oh, yeah, I guess every time I do a thing like I get this point But then it's like another thing you got to keep track of. Yeah exactly And then we were like, okay, let's go back to knock knock yeah so one of knock knocks very first abilities was that she was would do damage to an NPC that did damage yes yeah made her so dude for an already absolutely overpowered character at the time to be like yeah dude in one go she could do for damage for no reason.

Yeah it was good. And so we're like okay well what about we'll have incorporate some of his like upper buster let's make him a pacifist in a weird way but like he's not doing damage but he's making like the damage that he gets done he reflects back. Yes yeah yeah. And so I was like okay cool so he'll you know his movement set was like right, he moves forward and if he takes damage... He sends it to an adjacent NPC on a location tile adjacent to his. And I was like, okay, cool, that's that one. And then you're like, well, if he lands on a friendly, he's never going to be able to attack anyone.

Okay, cool, you're right. So then we did it to be like, okay, cool. I think he's once a day. It was like, cool. Cause whoever is like the square he's in a day, it was like, cool, cause whoever is like the square he's in to attack you and to reflect that damage either back to the person or around. And so we're like, cool. And that was an interesting mechanic. It was kind of interesting. I liked, I think one thing that was very fun about

it was that I had to think about when I was playtesting and it was like, well, I'm thinking about who's around me and I'm thinking about who's people, different NPCs, damage outputs, not as a threat to me, but almost as a weapon I could use. I was like, okay, maybe this is something. And so yeah, you tried that for a bit and it just, it made you not interact with the game in a different way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And at the same time, I was doing like, play testing, Dane Neaton. And we were like, he's exactly. And at the same time, like I was doing like play testing

with Amy Eaton, and we were like, he's the big bad of the campaign. He's a big dragon boy. Let's just make him just like, again, we know that Knock Knock was overpowered. Let's make, let's start overpowered and go from there. All damage, all the time, baby. It's gonna be great.

And it sucked. It sucked so much. It's very funny with Amy Eaton. And it's the issue that you get in any video game where you can all of a sudden play as the big bad. It's like such a classic thing where it never feels as good. You don't feel like the big bad. And we tried so hard to make him like everything we came up with. I remember any time, you know, any of us would play test him. We'd be like, how was it? And you'd be like, kind of the most boring thing in the world.

And when, yeah, so initially I was like, you know, he's, he's just too damaged. Again, shockingly, like does a lot of damage when you can compare it to right now. It's like he's just heaps of damage. Every move he'll like, you know, he's like attack, he'll like, you know, dropping damage, you know, everywhere he goes, right? Like he's just going to be just absolutely decimating. And yeah. And then one time we're like what if it was like all in you know the friendly hostile friendly yeah which then did this weird thing because we've tried to just visually yeah make the hostiles like at a glance like others ones that's a hostile I I can tell. Friendly, those aren't friendly. Yeah. And you have to then-

Mentally flip them in your head. Yeah, exactly. And I remember we also tried like, what if all enemies are like as a balancing thing, all NPCs are hostile. Yeah, that's right. And I remember Adam playing it and being like, this is horrible because I'm still playing the game, right?

Like even though obviously I'm the big bad, it's still, the board is so dangerous. Like he was like, he's like, I'm actually horribly underpowered because of this. And you're like, oh, fuck, okay. That's a thing to balance out. All right, yeah. So then he's got this like idea to be like,

with him to be like, okay, cool. I think that is my idea. Yeah. And it was like, all right, what if we, what if it was just like, hey, you're, we'll take a little bit from like the campaign, you're Damien Eaton and you have your own thing to do. So you don't get quests, like you don't get victory points regularly.

You just go, all right, I've got my own agenda. And it's always like a set thing. Yeah. Like a set little, a set menu. Yeah. These are the things you need to do in the seven days. Yeah. And it was like, look, if you want a bit more variety, it's like, these are the things you could do.

All of these, like a bit of a smorgasbord, like, you know, these are the things that are worth sort of Vicky points. And so you go in there, you're like, I'm doing this, I'm doing that, I'm doing this. And so it's like, yeah, cool. This is my idea, like a narrative thing of what I'm doing. Yeah. But the real problem there is like, well, yeah, but I'm, I'm playing it by myself. It's funny that this is a good fact. A real problem we keep kind of encountering with even this late in the game with development, where we come up with an idea and we're like, oh, wait a second. Wait a second.

You're not playing the game with any, you're playing alone still. And so he's like, OK, you're playing it alone. And then it's like, what, is it now really a 3v1? What happens if he gets certain things? Are we... This is a new game. Yeah, exactly. Another idea I had jumping off from that, which again, it's a new game, was like, maybe there's like the weapon from this campaign and there's... It's split into three or five pieces which are amongst the items.

And if Damon Eaton gets them all and has them all by the end of the game, he wins. It's not about victory points for him. And then, you know, it's now the impetus for the other players to stop him getting those things. And then it's like, yeah, but well, how, if he has all of them by round two, what's he doing for the rest of the game? And then if he loses, is that fun? Not really. And also it's a brand new game. We just kept on inventing these new ways of playing. Well, it was not quite a new way to play. It was, I mean, in a way it was, but it was more just like it didn't integrate with the rest of the game.

Yeah. And like, I think the beauty of this game is the way all of these moving parts interlock and like sort of affect each other or whatever. And we kept coming up with these new things that didn't really affect anything else. Yep. And it's like, yeah, I'd been playing, I think it's the Disney's Villainous, which is actually a really good board game.

It's not designed for two players, like it can be a two player game. Yeah. But it kept making like, you know, best two player games are like, the Villainous is one of the ones that keep topping it. And I was like, really? So I played it, it's really good.

Yeah. And the way they do that is like each, the villain you're playing, they have like, yeah, their own agenda to do. Yeah, sure, sure. Okay, cool. So what if I could borrow that? But then all you're doing is like ramming another game into this game. Yeah, exactly.

And you're like, it was never decided for this. No, and when you try and play it that way, it's very obvious that it's like, oh, this is not part of the game. So we- And so then another thing that we did with him, it was like, all right, cool. So then his way of doing it was like, yeah, cause when he was doing a lot of damage, he was sort of clearing the board and then like, well, what if we kind of counted that with Buster? And Buster was like a four street population.

He was drawing people into the board. And so you had this different idea of like, yeah, well, when people do defeat, like you need to defeat a character, whatever, I don defeat an NPC, that goes to like, it clears the board. What if we do the opposite? Yeah. Like, you know, incorporates things in. So yeah, but you have that built into the game already on rounds three and six. That's already happening.

Good point. And it happens on round three and six kind of intentionally because that's balanced for, yeah. And so we had to, we just kind of had to be like, okay, we've got to stop thinking about these new characters as new games and just think about them and develop them as new characters. Yeah. And that-

And it was a lot better. Yeah, it was helpful. Yeah. And so yeah, so with Buster, we're like, okay, look, because again, it was this like idea where this one, because it comes back with Ralph, Ralph Maroney. And so with Buster, we were like, okay, look, because again, it was this like idea, this comes back with Ralph Barone. And so with Buster, we were like, okay, cool. So he's worshipping, he's like, he's like the morning Lord, like it's still part of the pantheon of Pentio. And so I was like,

all right, so we have this mechanic, whereas like, again, with the miracle point, which was like, all right, what if he like, you know, one, like one miracle point, he could change the hostile NPC to friendly or vice versa. But two, maybe he does like, you know, he can either take a random like the item from the item deck or like a random NPC deck. Or, and then for three, maybe an extra turn or heals to full or whatever it was. And I kept like play testing it. And it was like, yeah, the one, the only one that people are doing is like the item.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Everything else they're not. They're not touching. We were like, oh, it's actually crazy. We don't have anywhere in the game, get a random item from the item deck or a random NPC. We're like, that's just not, that's the thing you think we would have included somewhere,

but we don't. And we were like, oh, hang on. Okay. So we had some locations. We're like, yeah, just not, that's the thing you think we would have included somewhere, but we don't. And we were like, oh, hang on. Okay. So we had some locations that were like, yeah, well, that makes sense. Yeah. Random item, random. Because again, it's like, it's a good thing to do, but it's not a guarantee. Yeah, exactly.

And it does kind of weirdly the same thing that being able to interact as a free action with a location does where all of a sudden you're like, well, I have this ability to get an item from the outer deck. I might as well. And then you pick it up and you're like, well, maybe this has changed my whole strategy. And so and then we played this a couple of times. Yeah, it was. It was really, really funny. Sometimes it was playing it and like I would get a Blink blade or a spell book, whatever. It was crazy. You just kept getting all of the best items in the game.

I mean, you can do anything with any item, but like, man, it just, I don't know. It was like you'd stacked the deck. It was crazy. And so I was like, I got cool. And like, but it was just kind of like you get built up. And so we figured out like, whatever it was, it's like once a day. Yeah. And like even and even then it was like, well, that's it's it's fun. And you can kind of do stuff with that. But it was this weird thing as well.

Like, oh, shit, I completely forgot. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like because it just can't do it anytime, whatever. And so like, what if we just like leaned into that, you know, morning Lord and it was like, Hey, a morning gift. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it was like, well, cool. At the end of your morning turn, it's kind of random. Yeah. Just get a random item from the item deck. And I liked that because it's like, well, it could really hinder you or it could help you. Yeah. Yeah. Like, uh, cool. I've already got my plan for the day.

And then you just get like a weapon or you get like an item that maybe is going to influence how you do other things. You're like, well, maybe now I have to completely restrategize. Yeah, exactly. I like that. And again, it's a complete random. So it was like, okay, let's make him, you know, like, you know, that's a nice little cool thing that no one else has.

Yeah. Nice little cool thing that like is not that it's not of a power, but it's like, it's very helpful. It's yeah, it's, it know, that's a nice little cool thing that no one else has. It's a nice little cool thing that like, it's not that it's not of a power, but it's like, it's very helpful. It's, yeah, it's, it's, it's very fun. Um, and then he's like abilities were like, all right, cool. Well, let's have his, you know, uh, uh, we're realizing again, turning in a, like a tight circle. It's very hard for the character to do.

So we're like, all right, well, what if he's one of his movements was like, you know, include like a left or right. And then like, Hey, what if we get him to also interact with those like locations and stuff like that? And so we had this idea of like cool. Well, let's make him a bit of again. He's a Jaren's out native out Yeah, yeah, Jaren's outpost native. Yeah. So like again, he's very much he knows the people around me He's doing this kind of stuff and you know, hey, let's let's let's incorporate that side of things. Yeah. And it kind of, it's kind of all just started to click together.

Yeah. And so like, sweet. And then we look at, uh, yeah, the big bird. They had eaten and eaten was, I mean, it just so tricky, like for so many reasons. One, because you're like, we are adapting the, you know, and obviously the Giants outpost board game is designed so that if you don't know the campaign, you can play it and whatever. You're not losing anything, really. But, for those who've listened, and you know, the fans, like Damien Eaton is the big bad.

He's the guy defeated at the end of the story. So you're like, well, fuck, he's gotta feel like... He needs to feel like the big bad. Yeah. A few times it was like this again, uh, Rhodes keep where he's, you know, that's, that's his home. Yeah. The, the card, like the design is a dragon on it and like, that's his home, but you know, you land the huge damage.

And so it was like, I think Adam was like, you know, that should not do him damage. Yeah. And I'm like, I get it. Narratively sure. Yeah. But everything on that card is saying do damage. And you are not, you know, it is that very funny thing as well, where like, obviously you're always coming at it from that narrative perspective.

But when you're playing sort of for me anyway, I'm never, I'm not thinking of the narrative. I'm not like no point in my head. When I'm playing Damien Eaton, I'm not Damien Eaton. Yeah, yeah. I'm Jackson with a set of abilities. You know what I mean? So when I land on that, there's no part of my brain that's like, oh, but I am the evil warlock. I'm on my house. I look at the card that says two damage and I go, ah, you know? So it was like, yeah, I get it. Great idea, Adam, but actually probably. Yeah. And so then it came back to this idea of like, well, what if you're a little stash or a little whore

that you're trying to get stuff from and people are trying to get it from you again, a different game. And so I remember you were like, what if you could like for a turn, turn into a big dragon? So it was like, you were occupying all these spaces. Yeah, you would be occupying six locations at once. Uh-huh.

Like really? What is that? How does that, what does that play like? You get to use any of those spaces? I don't know. Yeah. And so this idea of, well, okay, here's a scale of that. What is this guy?

What is he doing? You know, you want him to interact because when we had him not doing that, when you had him, most of the fighting character, he was just going there doing damage and then clearing the board. It's a really weird thing to discover that actually making a combat character

is sort of weirdly more difficult than making someone who's not, because you need to make a combat character interesting. You need to find ways of limiting them or restricting them, because it's actually pretty boring to just win. Yeah. It was when we had the kind of like, all right, cool.

Well, I got enough weapons and like enough items where I can't miss. Yeah. So like my target score, of course, is like, you know, say it's like, it's three or same with the target score was again, like the way it works. I got my target to hit someone is four. I've picked up two items that I will always hit. So like plus one to hit, plus one to hit. And I picked up a big weapon that does like an extra two damage. So I know that anyone who has four health, I will have to fight them in one go.

And it was very boring. Yeah, exactly. Because again, it's like a, I think it's like a Futurama thing. It's like, you know, oh wow, I'm winning the slot, am I in heaven? And he keeps doing, okay, I'm always winning, am I in hell? Yeah, exactly. It just became this kind of thing.

Yeah, I'm not even rolling a dice. I guess, whatever, I kill him, whatever. So having that element of like, there's better not be a one, oh, it's a one, okay, good, I miss. Screw my life, yeah. And then I take damage, and then I drop my good item,

yeah, good, good for me. And that actually makes it more interesting. For sure, but the funny thing with Damon Eaton is that we had this mentality of like, you gotta be tough and scary and doing damage everywhere. So the huge house, one of damage, boring. Yeah.

So it was like, okay, okay, okay. What are we doing? What are you doing? So the guy, he's a warlock, he's got like, he's also a dragon, he's like a wizard, he's doing this. So it's like, okay, what are we doing? Yeah, what are we move sets that we can make him?

And so for Ralph Moroney, so Ralph Moroney is like a blood cultist. Yeah. He's art, he's the blood cultist. In the campaign, he's like the police, like the town guard chief. Chief, yeah. And he's also the cultist. But in just like the game, he's like he's... He's just the blood cultist. He's a blood cultist. And so we'll get to him in a sec. It's because I want to talk about that whole

blood cultist own thing. So for the second iteration, I was playing Baldur's Gate 3 and there was like characters or like some enemies that had this Garroth ability. And it was such a good ability where they attack you and then they teleport you away. They teleport longer, the further away the more damage they do. And so I kind of like this idea of like, okay, so for Ralph, what was this idea of garrote? So it's like, okay, cool. So he'll attack somebody and if he succeeds, they go into his little, like, not his backpack,

but an extra slot on his character board, which is what he's garroting. And so it could work where every time he moves like one, they're a bit of damage. Or like, you know, every single turn, they're taking one. So even though it's like not incredible, like he's not, you know, completely destroying it, he's like, hey, just doing this little tick damage as he goes along. And then I was like, and maybe they'll like, you know, at the end of the day, a skill check or whatever. To see if they stay in your back. And that was like, you know, at the end of the day, a skill check or whatever. To see if they stay in your back. But that was like, yeah.

One of the roughs and initial abilities. Yeah. And that was a wonderful conversation with back and forth with you, because you kind of hated it. Yeah, I was not into it. And you, you, Jen, I think you still kind of hate it. But you know, well, I but but and when we talk about it, and I think we'll get to kind of why I kind of realization anyway, that kind of made it like, oh, you know, one of those, oh, okay, this is what's happening moments.

But yeah, I wasn't into it. I was like, you know, and I think my criticisms at the time is I was like, I don't like having this thing on my character board that I have to consistently pay attention to that isn't the game. It's a thing that in a video game would be ticked down by the computer. But it's a thing that's very easy for me as a player to just kind of like neglect and forget. And I also didn't like that it didn't,

it felt separate from everything else that was happening in the game that nobody could really affect. And I just, yeah, I didn't love it. I didn't vibe with it, you know? Yeah. And so, and then we kept being back and forth and we're like, well, why?

It's too passive. And I'm like, well, you kind of And so, and then we kept being back and forth, like, well, why? It's too passive. And I'm like, well, you kind of think of it like a poison effect. I get the idea, but I just don't like it. Something is not... I like to be like, I like to think there's no bad ideas. Yeah, of course. Well, how do we make that actually work? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so I was like, well, how do we make this? Because I quite like the idea. And so we were like, oh, this... And he did convince me, like, okay, well, what do we make this? Because I quite liked the idea. And so we were like, oh, this, and he did convince me like, okay, well, what if we tried Ralph a different thing? And so Ralph has like, now is the kind of thing where you put blood marks and you can tell them. Back to those, which is important for David Eden.

And so we're like, okay, cool, fair enough. He didn't like it, we'll kind of, you know, we'll move along and what about we, hey, what about this idea we have? And because that was what we were finding out because with Buster, initially, his very first iteration was like, what if he couldn't pick up an item? Yeah. I couldn't use weapons at all.

So yeah, he could pick them up and they didn't do anything. He acts, you know, and, uh, he actually didn't have any like, um, initially I didn't have like a hit check skill. So to do damage, he had to roll his skill. Yeah. That's true he did it wasn't affected by weapons but it affected about what what uh what time of day it was so it was like during the morning he got like a plus zero and during the you know afternoon a plus one

and he was his very first like iteration and uh so it was interesting sort of like going back to something like that Ralph yeah. Yeah. Going back. To Eaton. Yeah. Okay, so what is Eaton? He's a dragon. And it was just kind of like, you know, once again, a lot of playtesting. Yeah, a lot of like trying stuff out, seeing if it works, you know, going through game

after game after game. Because like one of the initial ideas was, what if at the beginning of the day as a free action or I think it was a free action, he can drop down three points of damage anywhere on the board. Like a rain of fire. Like a rain of fire from the sky. He's a dragon after all. And then I think he also had a movement of like. One movement I think he had initially was consume.

Where it was basically you just consumed a NPC, you wiped them off the board. Didn't have to roll, they were just gone. They were dead. And it was like, yeah, you gain some health, but you don didn't have to roll, they were just gone, they were dead. And it was like, yeah, you gain some health, but you don't get prestige. Yeah. And then it was just like, well, that's a bit overpowered for a quest. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, fair enough. And so I was like, well, what about, okay, what about this then? And so I was like, okay, so consume. So we'll have like a move where he attacks, because also was the idea of like, he rains down fire, was again, in use that to combining with some of these other moveset, it was just like, he just cleared the board. Just too overpowered.

Well, cause he had that, but he also had like a flame breath that was like, you know. In a line. In a line down the board with the one closest to him doing the most damage, and then it like doing like plus three, like three points of damage,

two points of damage, one point of damage and just all combined, it just meant that you just, you just wiped the board. Yeah. And was it fun? Not really. And so I was like, all right, cool. All right, well, we'll figure this out.

And so I was like, okay, consume, how can we make this? And it was like, it was like a few times, like we tried it out, whatever. And it was like, well, let's go back to consume. How can we make this interesting? I was like, well, what about the grot ability that we played with, we didn't like, we played with a bit and then we're coming back to it. What if it was just like, hey, he goes and attacks somebody and we'll make it in the card. Goes and attacks. So he pounces, he attacks them.

If it's a success, great, goes into his stomach. And so he'll do the initial damage that he has, because initially he had the initial damage that he has. Because initially he had the two damage. For a while, like, oh yeah, he can consume somebody. What if it ups his damage? What if we're thinking like, hey, let's start thinking opposite? What if when he's consuming, because he's eating,

he's actually kind of like a snake. Where he's like, I'm a bit tired. So take that one damage. Make it zero. So he's actually got zero. His base is now zero. He's like, he's eaten something, he, yeah. So take that one damage. Make it zero. Down to zero. Yeah. His base is now zero. He's like, he's eaten something, he's zero, and that's the one tick damage.

How do we like this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's just consuming it. And like, this is an interesting way of doing it. And we're playing with that for a bit. He also had this ability where it was like, like, again, talking about new mechanics. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What if we have this idea of like fire? Yeah. Dragon dragon, flame breath. So he goes forward, he flames something right? So he

puts a bit of flame down and so we're like alright so the flame, what does the flame do? Okay well maybe it'll uh you know what if it just kind of you know does damage you know once like yeah yeah yeah kind of like a plane yeah but yeah you know so something the computer does. It's like alright all right, flame damage. Well, then what if it's like, you know, fire there? And this was also part of like, when it was this like, you know, Damien versus everyone else. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what if it's like, you know, he can render this location, you know, empty.

Empty basically. Or like, people can't use it. Yes. Yes. That's right. That's right. Yeah. And so like, well, people can't use this thing. And so it was like, hey, maybe one of his like little quests he has to do is like, you have to like start burning the place down before everyone else can think, you know, can do stuff. But like maybe as a free action, you can put it, like put the fire out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, you're adding more to the game. You're giving the person playing Damien Eaton, like, you know, you want, you know, with this board game, I think you want it to be the kind of game where, you know, you're sitting down with your friends, you go, what board game are we gonna play? It's board game night. And you go, oh, let's play the Jaren's Outpost board game. And you sit down for like a game or two, have a good time.

You don't want somebody to be like, I'm gonna play Damien Eaton. And you're like, oh, okay. So you're actually playing a different game from the rest of us. You want it to just be like, what character do you vibe with? That's who you're playing as, you know what I mean? Like not giving someone a whole bunch of extra rules.

They have to learn just to play one character. So yeah, so it is like a fire. Like, I come with a fire. Put it down. And yes, I was like, all right, cool. What is it? So I was like, cool. Well, all right. Maybe instead of like rendering that whole location, you still use it like a little clearer. Yeah. So the NPC in the item, they go in discarded.

Yeah. And then you were like, oh, and what about like, you know, once per day, like kind of similar to this, like Ralph Moroney puts down a bloodmark and he can then like, teleport back to that bloodmark. A kind of teleport ability. Yeah. And so it's like, well, the same thing with Damien. Yeah. What if he has like a return to flame sort of thing?

So he does this thing once a day and then once a day as a reaction, he can then teleport and it was like, well, it's a fire so it'll go out, right? Which made it not useful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, it's a less good version of that and you have to then do a dash. Specifically because the way it was going to work is that at the end of the day, it dissipated. It was not usable anymore. But because you placed your flame as one of your movement cards, it meant that you'd already programmed your movement without that Flame token.

So you actually... It made no sense to incorporate it in that way, yeah. And then I kept back and forth to be like, well, what if it was like, you know, well, if someone is on there, like a player character, would they have to flee or are they taking damage? You're like, it feels like they should take damage. It feels like like yeah, absolutely Okay, yeah, that's the rule set

And yeah, it just was one of those things where you you tied their ability Into something where it like if you weren't doing it every day because it was part of like one of his movements Yeah, the dash as well. I think it's like if you weren't doing that, you know, you're not using his his move Yeah, kind of like not doing to the extent. Mm-hmm. And so I was like, okay. Yeah, that's not great. You're kind of like not doing it to a full extent. And so I was like, okay, yeah, that's not great. Then I was like, okay, well, and also at this point, he's like, he's consuming someone. And then it's like, he's also doing some flame stuff. He's consuming someone.

You're like, well, can I steal from him? Mm, yes. What happens if I go, because we have like a new player. If I go to the Shorefoot School for Wayward Children, which is a location tile on the board where if you pass a skill check you can steal an item from another player's backpack. It's a very very fun location. It rocks. It's the location you go to if you want your friends to give you this look. It's awesome. And it's also great because when you go there and you fail that quest, so you fail that

um that check, you the other players they know it's common. So then you fail that quest. So you fail that check. The other players, they know it's common. So then you have this face. Steal from Adam. Steal from Adam, not me. Leave me alone, steal from Adam. And it's a very, very good thing to be like, all right, I now have to quickly do something. Yeah.

And then to make sure. I gotta get rid of, I gotta use this item or this NPC, too freaking sweet. Figure it out. So I was like, well, yeah, can you item or this NPC, toot fricking sweet. Figure it out. So I was like, well, yeah, can you steal from someone like, you know, in that thing? Or like if someone is like on the same location, can they attack whatever's in your valley?

And this like, you know, back and forth. It was kind of like, not a disagreement, but we, you know, we were coming at it from different places. I was like, I think you should, because I think my feeling is that otherwise, or my feeling was that otherwise, the NPC in Damien's belly just feels closed off to the rest of the players.

If you theoretically pick up the surgeon, it's like, well, until that surgeon's dead, they might as well not exist on the board. They might as well not be in the game. So there's gotta be some way we can interact with them, you know? Yeah. And I thought it was a really good way to kind of like then to have that. Cause I think with the, we didn't, running, it wasn't really like, okay, you see me steal that.

Yeah. We never really came to it. And so with this, it kind of was like, I was very much on team, like, no, yeah, that was my ability. You ruined it. That was my special thing. Yeah. And so initially I was like, cause like, you know, knee-jerk reaction, I was like, I don't think so, cause it feels like the thing that makes me special, you're ruining it.

And so like, that was kind of my idea, like, don't do that. Yeah, stay away, you're wrecking, why did I even do that? And it's like, well yeah, but you also are taking a gamble, because if you're taking something with high, like like high health and you're, you know, doing that, sure, you're, you're, you're basically on the gamble. Like, well, that's a guaranteed little victory point. Yeah, exactly. But you just got to hope that nobody's gonna, because then there's no risk, right?

Exactly. Exactly. Which is like, oh, you know, good point. Yeah, it becomes like a, well, I win. Yeah, yeah. Like, well, good for you, I guess. And that's the good thing about the Shawford School is that not only is there a skill check,

which you might fail, but you also have to like go out of your way. Yeah. You know, when I was, because I think my strategy was like, if I go there and steal the surgeon and I'd waited, that was what made it, like, I was like, I'd felt, you know, a feeling that we really want to engender in players is this feeling of like, I'm a genius. And that's what it felt like to me because I was like, oh my God, wait a second.

If I get to the Wayward School, the Shorefoot School for Wayward children, while Zamet has, and it was this race against time because obviously every move, every turn, there's a little bit of tick damage and the surgeon has eight health. And so I was like, I need to get to the Shorefoot School and pass the skill check before that eighth round so that he only has one hit point. So I, no weapons, can defeat the surgeon, get the three victory points. But it was a race against time, you know, before you ate him in your belly. So I was like, but I felt, you know, I had that feeling and I was like, you know what,

all right, then that's... But again, I could have whiffed the roll. And by going out of my way to get the surgeon, I wasn't doing a bunch of other quests. Exactly. And it kind of bounds itself out that way because we were like if it's in his belly He shouldn't be able to attack it because it's like it's in your stomach. Yeah, other people can as well Yeah, if you like lined it up right to get into the same like location. Yeah Yeah, nah, nah, do the thing. Why not? And so that was like, you know, cool. All right, would that work?

But this flame mechanic did not. No, no, no, no. And so it was like, okay, cool. So So then it was like, well, what if we have these things working with synergy, right? And it's like, well, what if we had this idea rather than like because it was part of a dash It was like you move forward do a bit of flame damage and then you go again So it's like well, we'll just change that so still dash, but he picks up the NPC in the middle Mm-hmm. It just picks it up. It just picks it up into his backpack, not into his belly. Yeah. His backpack, right?

Because I think we also were like, let's make him three slots as well. Three slots, yeah. Three backpack slots. Because again, you play with inventory. You're playing with these things. That's one of the sliders that you can change around to make an NPC feel different. And so I was like, all right, cool. So you can pick up an NPC.

And then it's like, well, then as a free action, he can just eat whatever's in his backpack as a snack. Because to me is again, the narrative thing of like, okay, cool. Well, I can do a thing, which is like, I'm eating, I'm hungry. I'm eating right there. Why can't I? It makes it make, makes me feel like a dragon. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, that's good. Um, and so, because again, if you're doing a consume thing and it's like, sweet, well, I've done it and it's like, okay, cool. I want to, you know, he's dead, but I've got this other thing in my backpack. I want that now in there. I want that to do in something. It made that like as a good strategy. Yeah, yeah. Okay. You stole on the surgeon. Great. But I have this other thing. Now I can put them into my backpack. I'm wasting my time. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I feel like I'm wasting my time. Yeah, yeah. And so like, again, it's just like a thing of like, cool.

And then we're like, well, what if he can, can he regurgitate? Can he like, you know, can he discard from his stomach? And we're like, yeah. Yeah, why not? Why not? For sure. And then it became this idea of like, well, cool. So he's playing his own little mini game

in a weird way sometimes. Whereas he's consuming somebody, and if he has to like deliver them somewhere, he's a race against his own time. Yeah, exactly. Will I get to consume them or will I get to like throw them up? And it was funny, I think that also made us realize like, oh, he's actually not really a combat character. He's a pick up drop off character like Clara Norman. Like, oh, okay.

And then once he... That was that weird thing with the design, like, you know, the approach with Buster and Eaton. And the very first time we were doing it, it was like, well, Buster's not a combat character. And then we did all this stuff and we designed a combat character. Oh wait, whoops, he is, okay. Okay, well, let's just.

You're like, Eaton's a combat character and then you do all this stuff and you're like, oh, I guess he's actually not really, yeah. And it made him a lot more fun to play. Absolutely. And a lot more interesting, I felt. And I think that's this weird thing with this game specifically specifically where sometimes you have

to sacrifice some of like the, not the narrative necessarily, but maybe like the, the, um, like the closeness to the campaign or like expectations or something to be like, yes, obviously Damien Eaton is the big bad of the story. And obviously I'm sure you feel like you need to be dominating the board and setting fire to everything, but like we've done the, we've run the numbers. We've crunched the numbers on that. This is more fun. You know what I mean?

This is actually a more entertaining way to play the, because at the end of the day, it is a game. You know what I mean? It's a game you're playing and this is the, this is fun within the game. So yeah, like you're still, you can do the combo stuff, but again, it's a game you're playing and this is fun within the game. Yeah, like you still, you can do the combo stuff, but again, it's this idea of, yeah, of course, yeah.

I'm gonna do this, like, you know, moving things around and picking stuff up. And then it becomes this kind of like, well, like think about it, like again, everything can be like a little bit tweaked narratively. And you're like, yeah, it's like, okay, sure. Like, yeah, sure, he's a big bad, he's a big dragon. He's like, whatever, but also he's a crazy wizard man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's like like, well yeah, at this point he's like, well no, I can't just like openly attack Jaren Talbott. I need to like, you know, do, I gotta be eating guys. I gotta like, you know, pretend I'm doing good, maybe. I gotta be like, oh yeah, I gotta amass my army, you know? I gotta amass my wealth, and I'll take over that way. Sure, you know? Whatever gets you there, like that. Whatever works.

Whatever gets you there, you know? Whatever works. Yeah, yeah. And so these are like, yeah. So those are the, I guess for us, we include like the Expansion characters. But like these characters that we're discussing here, those are hopefully part of the base game.

Yeah, yeah, ideally they will be in the base game that they'll be unlocked by the stretch goals and everybody will get to play them. Please, for the love of God. We've put a lot of time in it. For God's sakes, people. So these are like, you know, these were part of the base game.

And so then now we're talking about Ralph Baroti, because this is the kind of like, well, we wanted to do an expansion. And the idea was like, hey, let's slice this some expansions. The idea of like, okay, what do you want to do as an expansion character? You can move him here and there. And we're like, well, why don't we make a little blood cult?

Yeah, exactly. Like, yeah, we're a little blood culty, little blood culty expansion. Yeah. So we're like, well, why don't we just go make a little blood cult? Yeah, exactly. Like, yeah, we're a little blood culty expansion. So we're like, all right, let's go blood culty. And so we're like, sweet, let's do this. And so with expansion, and if you get the deluxe edition, it'll come with this as well, but the expansion by itself, it's like Ralph Moroney as a playable character. And then it comes with like six NPCs that one of them is Greg Piss's shadow. The other one is like what was like Four Guard Friday up to?

Yeah during the whole campaign. Oh he was hunting the blood cult the whole time. Yeah exactly. So we made him like his blood hunter Friday and then we were like, initially we didn't, we were getting, we were thinking about like making this kind of thing and like the Blood Cult, initially we just had like one NPC, which was a collection of Blood Cult. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of like the gnome paratroopers or the short footed forces. This could be its own sort of, yeah. And so, uh, Fatali Kang, a wonderful, Fatali Kang, wonderful artist and fan of the show.

And a wonderful member of the Sands Fans Plus Discord. Yeah. So I reached out to him and I was like, hey man, what do we think? Could you do some like some blood cultists? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like this idea of like, look, postmen. These are just members of society, but they just happen to be blood cultists. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I like this idea of like the postman Mmm, these are just members of society, but they just happen to be blood cultists. Yeah, like I think

Like an accountant like a banker maybe and maybe someone works in the sewer kind of stuff Maybe just draw them like whatever but like yeah, they're blood cultists. Yeah, some sense of evil around about them. Yeah So we've got some yeah some some some blood some, some blood culty MPCs, which look great. They're amazing. And so they do these like, you know, some of the disabilities and some items like that. What I like is like the idea of like cursed items. And so there's like a fashion of don't touch. Yeah. It's like a weapon that you, you know, picks up and like, yeah, it does a lot of damage, but then like you can't discard it. Yeah. It stays in your backpack for two days. Yeah, like it reduces your hit and then like Greg's third eye is like, it's like an item that like you can pick up, it does some

damage to you. You can like check out the quests. What's coming up in the quests and rearrange them to make it to your benefit. And like you can only discard it say at the road, at the road keep. Yeah. And so there's a few other kind of items there. And we've included a few other locations as well. One of them being the blood, the shrine of the blood cult. Yeah. And a few other ones as well. But the shrine of the blood cult being the most important one here. And then I guess, what I'd call it them blood quests. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ten blood quests. And this comes down, we'll talk about Relf first.

So Relf was like an interesting character because initially we were like, well what is he? So he's a bit of like a duplicitous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I was like, all right, what if he had this ability like mimic, which was like, so in part of the seven cards he has, one of them was like mimic. So he'd mimic someone else's like move around the board. So like, yeah, someone like moves and interacts.

Yeah, so you kind of always watching like, oh, actually, I'd like to move and interact. Yeah, like, OK, cool. And he's hold his whole deal. He's all like, he can play from his hand. Yeah, exactly. Which is funny, because it's a thing that, you know, in the early days of play testing this and of showing it to people, sometimes people would be like, oh, I really, I would like to play from my hand. Is that something I could do? I think that would be more fun.

And then it's funny because we were like, all right, Ralph Moroney, he's the guy you can do it with. And it wasn't fun. It was really bad. And the reason it was really bad, I think, is because the game is not designed for that. It's very explicitly designed for you to program your movement so what happens is that you end up doing what you would have done if you just programmed your movement yep except what you're doing is you're waiting for everyone else to be done yeah exactly it's wonderful thing where you're like cool yeah I guess I just do nothing I'll wait while everyone is planning their movements and everyone's

pointing to the what am I gonna do okay I'm gonna. I'll wait while everyone is planning their movements and everyone's pointing to the What am I gonna do? Okay, I'm gonna go get this I need to get that Yeah, this game as well is that kind of thing where you're like, yeah And it's a bit of a mad like the mad dash to be like, yeah this is I think You know what this will work. This will work. I'm always a big fan of the and then for my next move I oh, I fucked it. I'm fucked up. I meant to put the left but I turned right hang on left or right. I I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I it bad. I meant to put the left, but I turned right. Hang on, left or right? Ah, I thought I muffed it. I muffed it so bad.

I guess I'm going over here. Why not? Or I interact here, I guess. Sure. Okay, is that what it was? It was just crazy to see this thing that, again, several people have been like, oh, I think you should do this with the game.

Well, we always were like, I don't reckon. I never felt right for me. And to be like, well, one character maybe it will. Yeah. And then to put it into. And we'll incorporate that as well in the movement because you can mimic some stuff. Exactly. It was bad. Yeah. To put it into practice and be like, neither of these things are interesting.

Cause the mimic one was useless most of the time. And also because again. So dependent. Yeah. And also because you pre-program your movement, it meant that you would wait to see what we'd done, and then you just had to hope. And in a two-player game, because I remember we did a couple of, like, I feel like Adam was busy for a while, until we did a lot of two-player games, figuring out, Ralph, you just were like, you're not doing anything interesting, and I have one, I have four possible cards to mimic, and realistically, most of them

are going to be pretty boring. So it just kind of was not fun. It just kind of didn't work. And then you have the ability. And it was also like the weird thing where it was like, it was not fun and a bit overpowered at times. Cause it was one where like, okay, what if he'd like, again, like a kind of like a warlock thing where you do yourself damage and maybe you dish out damage. And so I was like, okay, so you save, like I'll do five damage to myself. Yes, that's right. And then I'll move forward and I'll do,

I'll dish out some damage. I'll dish out the damage I dealt to myself, right? And like, yeah, I guess that's good because yeah, like- You never take damage, I guess. You take a lot of damage. Oh, you take a lot of damage, you dish out damage. And then it was like, his ability was like, oh, what if he healed the damage he did?

And so there's this horrible Horrible positive feet because you would be like okay He has four hit points. I take four damage myself I defeat the MPC because I can I get four hit points back. Yeah, you're like oh, I guess we just gave them Basically whatever their health was in damage every move cool. We're stupid. Yeah. Yeah, it's so again It was like all right. Well, what do we do here here let's this in man this idea to be like well look I want to be weak yeah yeah I really like playing Leo you've granted yes yeah but like I like Leo cuz I'm like okay he's got a lot of like he doesn't have a lot of

health and he kind of got a really like figure out where I'm moving around because you like I don't want to hurt myself yes yeah and so like I really want a weak character or at least someone who was perceived as weakness to be like you You are so fragile. Yeah, yeah, things go bad things go bad I think he's got so Ralph has the lowest hit points of any NPC any PC sorry I have a sick the moment. Yeah, I'm ahead but like like for comparison Leo has Yeah, yeah, that was so he's weak.'s like, yeah, got the lowest like hit points. And so I was like, okay, cool. I want him to have like, no, like very, very little hit points. And

I like the idea of like, well, I like the idea of him kind of being pushed into a corner. So what if instead of like, you know, the having like the initially starts off with like doing like damage, will make his base damage zero. Yeah. And then every time he loses a backpack slot, he gains plus one damage. So he's actually doing a lot more damage the more injured he is. And the weaker he is, the closer he is. And so it's very like his knife, like knife. And so I'm like, okay, cool, let's do that. And so it's kind of like somebody's movement, like you know, his movements over like, are

I sacrifice where he does some damage to himself, and he dishes it out. I'm like, okay, that's fine, but what if we reduce this, like he does one damage to himself, and then he attacks. And he's attacking, of course, whatever he's doing to himself,

plus whatever item he might have. And I'm like, cool, this is kind of nice. It's kind of what is starting to balance itself out. Starting to get together, all right, cool. And then we're like, all right, what else can he kind of, what else can he try to do here? And because you like this idea of like a narrative. Yeah. I'm like, cool. He's going in there, he's doing some damage, or he goes and attacks.

What if he whiffs it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like, he's like, you want him to attack from the shadows. So either, and it was interesting, so I was playing it one way, like the way where I would be using this ability as a defensive, whereas Adam was using it as offensive. Yes yeah yeah it's cool that you could do both you know yeah. And so the ability is like so he has a dash which will do like one damage where he is moves forward

leaves a blood mark and then moves forward again. And I think it's really cool so that the then his ability sorry don't just speak over you but is to then he can teleport back to that location. As a free action. As a free action. But I like that his movement and his special ability work in conjunction with one another. I think that's kind of an interesting thing that we did with Ralf. Yeah. And so it was like this idea of like cool. And then it was like limiting the amount of

blood blood marks. Yeah. And so initially like okay, I see three and like, cause I like the idea again is because again, you want this like limitations. Yeah. And so initially like okay has three and like I like the idea again is good because again you want this like limitations Yeah, and so this idea of like as he's moving around or dashing around He's got to put these blood marks down and so it's like if he has for example If he has only two well Then like he's like he puts down initially to right as he's doing it I say the two days and by day three if he does it again, he's got a choose He's got to choose a new which one to that he's already placed to move around. Yeah, because again, it's like, okay cool

Well, I can go back there. And so I was always using it to be like, cool, well I'll put that down there as a lovely little safe haven. And then I'll go and do some damage or attack or whatever. And it was always great to be like, sweet, do this and I can go attack someone. If I hit them, I'm dead, they're dead and it's going to be great. I whiffed it, they're going to hit me for so much, I will die. I will use my ability and I will go back to you. Woo, I'm back to my blood mark. Whereas Adam would do the opposite, where he'd be like almost initially would do

that and then he would plan from there. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sweet. That's my point of like, you know, that's where I'm starting and then I'll move out.

I'm like, buddy, you're leaving yourself so open to like, for some damage. Oh, buddy. Yeah. But it was cool that he, he was still very, like he played competitively despite going for that different strategy. Yeah. And again, it's just, however your brain works, however you want to strategize you can do it Yeah, and then then that sort of all started clicking into place. And so that was like he's like, okay cool He's like, you know, he now kind of feels a bit like, you know, we get magic

Yeah, it's like well, it was very cool as well because I think initially Yep, the like the it's it's just it's very cool the way the blood marks and his health and damage kind of worked in conjunction. Because I don't think, I feel like maybe the blood marks was something that partially I was at least championing. And you were championing the damage thing. And it was cool because I wasn't really thinking about the damage with the blood marks. I was just like, I want a character that can move around the board.

Because again, it's like a different way of moving around the board. It's a different way of exploring the map of the board or whatever. Partly because again, when you're making these characters at the same time, we were one of Buster's where it was like, what if he could just as a move teleport to like the temple of Pena as a move? And so it was just like that from there was like, okay, well then this is like, what is this? And then his attack sorry is um, yeah Ralph's like sort of like damage was again using, you know The previous buster being like these damages better during the day. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, very true again It's that kind of like, you know, you cannibalizing your own IDs

Yeah, didn't quite work out over here and we moved them for over here instead Absolutely, even like the teleportation when I forget which was like a chicken or an egg one But I think we were discussing I think it might have been buster. Yeah. Yeah talking Even like the teleportation one. I forget which was like a chicken or an egg one but I think we were discussing, I think it might have been Buster. Yeah, yeah. Talking about like you know what if he could like you know Buster could leave a thing here and then he could teleport here. Kind of return to it. Exactly. And then we're like you know that doesn't really sound like a Buster thing but you know who that does sound like. It just sounds like a Ralph Moroni thing. Like a blood cult. Yeah. But then it was I just always remember the first time we play tested it where you were like I think you like at the beginning, you were just like, I want this like,

attacking from the shadows kind of vibe. And then when you play tested it, it was just like, oh my God, these two mechanics work so well. They just meld so beautifully. I don't know. It was a very cool moment. Yeah. And it was like a really nice kind of like, you know, and you add like the other movements where it's like slink. And so it's like, you know, well, he can, you know, move here, move here, move here. And so I was like, all right, cool. He has enough now to, even though he might look very weak and he might look like a bit of a like, what am I doing here? It's a fun like character to play. It's a very like get in, do your damage, flee, lick your wounds, recuperate, go back. Yeah. It's very fun. Ralph's a lot of fun

to play with. And so this is part of this whole blood cult thing. Because it's like, and then it comes down to the blood quests. Yeah, yeah. And so I was like, all right, cool. So there's initially 10 blood quests to do. And so now this is like a very, because again, you want this as a, it's an expansion, right?

Yeah, you want it to feel like you're getting extra stuff. Yeah. And this was when we sort of had this moment where you're like, all right, cool. Jackson, the floodgates are open. Yeah, yeah. Change the game. You want to change your game?

Here's your chance. Here's your chance. Go nuts, right? So this is the kind of ideas we had. And this was a very fun moment. Yeah, yeah. Because it was this wonderful, like, yeah, you were throwing things up there, like at the wall.

And I'm like, OK, let's just strip this back. Because again, I don't like to tell, like, I don't want to initially be like, no. Yeah, yeah. All right, let's just take this to its logical conclusion, how are we going to see it here? And it was a lot of fun trying to come up with this idea of like, all right, cool. We got some, like, you know, blood quests. What does that mean? What does it mean to have a blood quest? What's different about these quests, you know? And I think what I like, initially, we were just like, the quests are bigger. That's definitely something that we've continually kind of returned to this idea of like, what if you had big quests?

Because so much of the development of the base game was this idea of like, actually we need to shorten the quests. They need to be able to be done in two days basically, as opposed to taking it like multiple. So we were like, maybe the blood quests are big. In the end they weren't, but that was definitely something we were thinking about I you know had a lot

of pitches around like hidden roles and so I felt like there was this this in a game in an expansion about the blood cult because this happens in the campaign as well I was like you'd be able to root out the blood cult some people obviously the new NPCs are obviously part of the blood cult is written on their their card but some people I feel like some people should also be secretly part of the blood cult like it's written on their card, but I feel like some people should also be secretly part of the blood card, like how do we do this? And so initially you were like, alright, but what if, okay, this idea was like, okay, I think you borrowed it from like Sheriff of Nautica.

Yeah, Sheriff of Nautica, that's crazy. It was crazy, like it was such a moment of like, what other board games do we play that have hidden roles, but also quite simple. And so I was like like because what I initially thought The thing that was like a real struggle for me is I was like, okay We have you pick 10 NPCs and you say these 10 five of these 10 NPCs or some of these 10 NPCs are Secretly members of the blood cult and so when you defeat them, it's like oh you rooted someone out of the blood cult

And I was like, but how do you let how do you have that moment of like? I defeated them and now I get to find out because without like a DM basically to be like who knows already and a sheriff of Nottingham the way it works is that um The first player is the sheriff and so they are the person who kind of is DM for that round more or less. They are the sheriff of Nottingham So I was like, well, maybe the first player can look at three NPCs, we have like a separate deck of those 10 NPCs with blood cult written on them

or whatever, and the first player looks at them, knows who the three NPCs are, they can spend that round or that day trying to root them out, and every other player is being like, well, who are they going for? Oh, they're really seeking out Clara Norman for some reason, Clara Norman. They're really seeking out Clara Norman for some reason, Clara Norman.

They're really seeking out Urquay for whatever reason. I reckon Urquay's the leader of the blood cult. I'm gonna go, or he's a member of the blood cult. I'm gonna go fight him or whatever. So that was kind of the initial pitch. They have three blood cultists they can go for. Each one is worth like one prestige, but if they get all three of them,

well then they get like five points. I'm like, all right, cool. So Jack, the idea here is, okay, first off it's very combat focused. Yeah. So if I'm not a combat character, I am Shirawa. Secondly, defeating three NPCs in one day. Pretty much impossible. It's pretty much, yeah, hard to do unless you've really started yourself out.

And then thirdly, cool. I've pre-programmed my moves. I see you have pre-programmed. You are going for Urkey. I say, well, nevermind. I guess. Yeah. I guess I can't get Urkey. And then you're like, yeah, good point. Yeah. Damn. Damn. And then you're like, okay, what about this? And then it was like, okay, a bit of a lot of back and forth. One idea that we're like, okay, cool, cool, cool. And we'll get once again, you're like, I'm a clever genius. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I figured it out. You're like, okay, cool, cool, cool. And we get, once again, you're like, I'm a clever genius. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I figured it out. You're like, okay, cool.

Well, what if like you're at the very start of the game? Everyone got like a little, you know, almost like a little roster, little board or whatever. And everybody's- Everyone has it. It's like a bunch of NPC names and everybody's got a different roster, but there is some crossover and you've got to find these people, these NPCs and defeat them

and cross them off your list with like a dry erase marker or whatever. The first person to defeat them is like going to get that point and it's like, well yeah, and then it's like cool, like I could do that. Or it's like, once again, it's like for combat quests. Yeah, I guess, well, all you could do is cross them off. Well, I think with the combat quest, it was like, well, because there are the blood, because that was like a separate mechanic of like the blood quests. And we were like, well, completing them will do a specific thing and then for the combat characters they have this option you know it's kind of thinking and then it was just like cool cool cool so like each one has like a different version of that and like okay cool and come to

like a new thing like a little dryer razor board you can kind of then I think I was like but we fall into the oldest trap that we fall into just making a single-player game yeah it's just single but everybody's playing their own single-player game and not interacting. Yeah. We're like, oh yeah, damn. Damn, damn, damn. Damn. And so it was like a lot of back and forth on that.

And then it was like, okay, cool. And then it was like, okay, what about instead this idea. Yeah. We've stuck with it. And it's kind of like a cool mechanic, I think. Yeah. And this idea of like, okay, well then how about this? So it's like, all right, very, let's go up 10 blood quests.

And what about it's like, cause then, very, I've got 10 blood quests. What about, it's like, cause then it's like very separate to the other quests. And again, it's just like, cool. Those are the quests that get like, the other quests that get done, they get done quite quickly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Or can get done quite quickly. Because there's a lot of them, and you can strategize to be like, I'm gonna get a bunch of them done. Yeah, oh, absolutely, yeah. Like in Cascade, is what I like about it. Cause like, you know, I got Stab Happy, which like, you know, defeat you say any NPC,

but also like, you know, the other stab happy, which like, you know, defeat, you say any NPC, but also like, you know, the other defeat, like only hostiles. So I could kill one hostile. I got two marks. I killed two. I've completed a quest and I'm two thirds of a way down that one. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going to, yeah, that's five victory points in possibly two rounds. Yeah.

Clever genius. And that's what I like about those regular quests. But like, blood quests, one active all time. Clever genius. And that's what I like about those regular quests. I'm like, Blood quests, one active, all time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like, you can't pre-plan, like if I get this one done, I can then get the next. Yeah, it's going to cascade onto any other ones, yeah. And so I was like, all right, cool. So that's going to be limiting how many you can kind of do in the week, as it were.

And so I was like, all right, cool. So what about this 10? It's all random. All right. So it's like, once you get to say, say, for example, because it's all about the Blood Cult, it's like, after like five of those are say, for example, cause it's all about the blood cult. It's like after like, you know, five of those are done and event happens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some, some thing changes the way the board works,

whatever it is. Yeah. And so it's like, cause again, you either want to be working for the blood cult and you want to be, or you want to be working against the blood cult. And so, and again, cause when you're doing these kinds of things, like making like mechanics, it's like big thing, big sweeping changes. You really, you can go as big as you want. Yeah. You also want to be like, well, let's just, you want it to still be digestible for the, you know, and so I was like, sure, we can like, and we still might do this depending

on like, you know, it's like the feedback. Yeah. Other, I would say that the blood cult expansion is still sort of, you know, it's like, it's still there. Like this is the initial and they're like, Hey, there's some other things that might kind of sneak its way in. But again, depending on like some other, like through playtesting, through playtesting with other people, through all those kinds of things, things of

course, are always going to change. So it's in flux here, but like, it's like, cool. Five quests are done, you know, and like to me narratively, it's like, you know, ah, yes, you're collecting the blood. Yeah. Or it's like, ah, yes, you're stopping the blood. Ah, so it's like five, the five quests are done. And then it happens like a one or two cards, you flip over and see, you're collecting the blood. Yeah, or it's like, ah, yes, you're stopping the blood Ah, so it's like five the five quests are done And then happens like a one or two cards and you slip over and see that you're working for the blood quest like blood cult

Are you working against the blood cult? Yeah. Yeah for sure. And so I was like cool. All right So now how do you root them out? And it's just kind of this idea of like it's a very simple thing of like Because visually like you want people to have like the npcs to be sort of, maybe they're workers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't know. I think when you introduce a cult, you need this idea of like, who can I trust? Exactly. And so I was like, all right, cool. Let's do this thing. And I was like, after that reveal, where it's like, hey, the blood cult has been infiltrated.

They're doing this as a legacy game. If you're doing it, this is like a narrative. Like you turn the page, you're like, you know, oh, it's a legacy game if you're doing it's like a narrative like you turn the page you like, you know Oh, oh my goodness. Oh the blood cult has infiltrated Jaren's outpost you need to a If you want to stop the blood cult turn to page 18, yeah You want to join the blood cult turn to page 19? Yeah, it's this like, alright cool And so it's like I call the after that that has happened, the fifth quest is done, straight away it's like, cool. Anytime the next time you move onto a space with an NPC, roll a dice. If it's like one to three, they are a member of the blood cult.

If it's like four to six, they are not. And then you just put a little marker either way, and it depends if you're working for or against. So let's just say you're working against the blood cult. So I was like, alright cool. You find out, they're the blood cult. Yeah. So I was like, all right, cool. You find out they're, they're, they're the blood cult. You put like, you know, a little red mark, a little black mark, whatever it is. Cool.

They are now hostile. Yeah. So if they were, they, if you know, you've never, they were previously friendly, now they're a hostile NPC. Yeah. So I was like, okay. And then it's like, cool. If you defeat them, that's it.

That's an extra big, you know, that's a victory point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. A prestige point. Or it's like, or you can pick them up. They'll, you know, you cop some damage. You cop some damage, you pick them up and you could take them to the Militia HQ or to Commander Tolton and hand them in.

Yeah. That'll give you a prestige. Yeah. And then it's like, cool. And then the same thing happens. If I could reverse, would you like, hey, well now you're working for the blood cult. You've got to take people to the blood, the shrine of the blood god or to, um,

one of the new blood cult NPCs. Yeah. So it's like, yeah, it's a very simple mechanic and it, it, it is a very, like, um, it works with all the rules that we already have in the game. You're not introducing too much. It's not overwhelming, but it is gonna change the game enough that it's like, well, I'm playing the regular game, but there's this extra thing I've got to think about now,

which is I think a fun way of doing a kind of expansion, you know, instead of introducing something brand new. And I mean, it is brand new, but instead of introducing basically a new game, you're like, well, within the boundaries and the confines of the game, here's some new stuff to do. Yeah. It's not like when you're chucking it like, hey, here's Viletus and his bit of root.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of like, okay, here's Sheriff of Nottingham. Yeah. You know, because again, like, sure, I hit and roll, like, you know, that, that, that, yeah, sure, I get it. Not this game. No, no, no, not this game, yeah.

And that's the kind of like, you know, it's, it's, it's been fun and frustrating and fun of like, yeah, this whole sort of like process when you have this like finished idea of this game and like, this is it, this is the finished version. And now I want to add to it or I want to like, you know, introduce another character or another, like another thing to it. How do I do this? Well, again, it's, you know, it's like I was saying at the top of the episode where you're like, I need to refresh it for myself. And now I have an opportunity to refresh it for myself. But I actually need to, I need to be practical.

I need to be sensible about this development. I need to, again, work that raises edge between something that is gonna feel new and exciting and will refresh play for players that have been playing the game for a while or who want a little bit of extra but that isn't going to just be this brand new kind of thing that doesn't feel congruent with the rest of the game. Which is again, I think I would have patted myself on the back,

I wouldn't have patted ourselves on the back. I think we've got a very decent job here that where it's like say, for us, heads was like, oh, these expansion characters end up like, actually these aren't expansion. No, these are just the game, that'll be part of the game Yeah, the game and they're fair they're fun They're a little bit more, you know, they could be looked at as being advanced Yeah, but you know, they still go toe-to-toe with the other other characters

Absolutely, because it's been a very funny part of the product the development process is being like great great Evelyn plane This is how she works You're like, yeah But we need to check her against not just the other characters that are quote unquote expansion characters or you know like goal characters or whatever we also need to check him up against Greg Pierce because like is there something that doesn't work there or and that's kind of why we had like Adam come in and be like well I'm gonna be knock knock and see if you know so there's yeah oh it's a blast.

But like yeah it's like all right cool and all right, cool. And then you go, cool. All right. Then you want to do like, say, for me, it was all like, yeah, once they were like, oh, yeah, cool. If we just whittle it down to be like the, you know, the expansion pack. I don't want people to feel like they're missing. No, of course not. And also like, hey, I just want the face game and like, you know, that's all I want.

And that's kind of it. And like, ah, you put like, you know, I don't want like you don't have like you know they they they they don't like feel like they're missing out if they don't get that like you know the deluxe yeah yeah but like so like this is a way we're like look expansion pack it's like if you want just like you know without all the bells and whistles like you know like meeples instead of like yeah nice a card whatever it is. Yeah. Like, you know, I don't care for Gilded's, you know, like, you know, location dial.

I don't care. Just give me the game. I don't get, this is a way to be like, okay, cool. This is like, I want like, you know, I want that like a little bit and it's like, cool. It'll add to the game. Yeah. Yeah. And what I also like about it is like, if you just want to be Ralph Moroni and with

that, don't even want to include the blood cult rules or whatever. Yeah, of course. You just play as Ralph Moroney. He still plays, you know, appropriately in the, in the, in the base game. That's fine. And there's that funny thing. Like I hope we hit the stretch goals and stuff. One because obviously I want to hit the stretch goals because I want this board game that

I've put so much effort into to be successful. But also because I'm so proud of the work we've put into each of these characters, I think it would be such a shame to not, for people not to get to play them. I'm like, there's so much fun, there's so much, if you like the game, fuck, like here's so much more of the game, you know what I mean? Like, uh, And so it's kind of cool, like, yeah, this is like cool thing to do. We're adding to that. And like, it's part of the stretch goals as well. Like, here's some new items and new locations. And like, you know, new NPCs that, you know, that add a little bit more to the game and like, then like a little more quests as well involved that like, you know, we've got another artist that we're like, hey, it's kind of funny that

we have like Little O's restaurant and we got this idea of like, I'll go to like, you know, as a stretch goal kind of thing. And this is part of the that we have like Little Lowe's restaurant and we've got this idea of like, I almost wouldn't like you to, as a stretch goal kind of thing. And this is part of the stretch goal, like, you know, like the idea of like, theming like some of like, you know, oh, extra VCs. I love the idea of like, hey, Little Lowe's hiring. Yeah, exactly. Here's a bunch of employees. Yeah.

And so we've got like, you know, again, if you're a fan of like, say DDS for nerds, like as a whole, there's a little couple of little references in there for you. And a very fun reference for us from a very dead campaign. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mostly just like a little joke for me maybe. Um, but like, you know, it's like, ah, there it is.

Yeah. It's like, he's like, you know, okay, cool. We've got like a chef, we've got like, you know, a waiter, those kinds of things. Yeah. I think it's like very, very fun. Oh yeah, me too. I think they're great. I think they're, uh.

And then like, you know, looking around and tooling with some items as well to be like cool You know, I think you were saying this as well. I think this is like, you know, okay. Okay, we got one item I think it's part of it. It's like a mirror Yeah, and it's just like the idea was because we have these like two items like a rock of warps and necklace video Yeah, and it's like cool. You can play them as a free action That's not on your turn only cards you can and it's like you cause someone else to fail, like skill check or attack. Yeah, yeah. Or attack check.

I like the idea of like, well, there's nothing to counter that. It's a bit annoying. And so like, all right, well, check it. It's like, it's like a mirror. It's like a pocket mirror. And it's like, it's tiny. It's like, it's a small, it doesn't take up any inventory space, but it's like, hey, it'll, you know, you can, whatever. It's discard to deflect any effect happening to a player. Yeah, you can then make it happen to someone else. Yeah, you deflect it onto somebody else. Sorry, it's deflect any effect happening

to another player to another player. So yeah. And I like, as I was doing this as a way to be like, well, it counters the Rock of Orbs in the next thing. That was my kind of way of thinking. And then you looked at that and you're like, I like that because like, it's so hard to interpret. Affects happening to a play up is very vague. I was like what? You're like buddy. I'm like mate.

Getting a victory point that's an effect happening to another player. Getting hit. Getting hit is an effect happening to another player. You land on a location and you get healed. Yeah. That's an effect. Being robbed. That's an effect happening to a player yeah good point man yeah and I'm like should I change the word you know keep it vague that's a real whatever that you know in the FAQ or whatever the rulebook it's like hey what's an effect happening to another player and it's like whatever your table allows baby if you want to like have anything by all yeah whatever your table deems appropriate that's an effect happening to another player.

Yeah, it reminds me so much of like very early on, like the blank spell book for example. It's a disc, like it used to be a discard, conduct as any item or NPC for the, you know, that's on like visible, right? For like a day. Oh sorry, for a whole day. And then once you've used it, get rid of it. Discard it from the game. From the game, yeah, it was no longer an option, yeah. Because it was like, oh, it's too powerful. One and done. And then we're like, nah, whatever's fun.

Keep it in, dude. And I think it also started as only items. And then we were like, why can't it be an NPC? Exactly. Like, yeah, fair enough, why not? You know, let's make this game as crunchy and interchangeable and weird as we possibly can. So yeah.

We've got like a few things there. Few very fun items, very fun NPCs. The NPCs have really fun powers and stuff. Very fun locations. Yeah, although locations are very, some of those locations. Some of the locations, yeah. Like, they're in, like, yeah, again, you do like a bunch of different like playtests around those as well. And like, you know, initially we're like, yeah, again, you do like a bunch of different like play desk around those as well. And like, you know, initially we're like, okay, what about this one? And there's like one thing I'm a little disappointed like that we've changed it.

Yeah, it's like the only one where I'm like, yeah, on the fence, because it is the Gnomish Sky Fortress. And the artwork is beautiful. It's a very it's like, like, like, say like the Surefoot School, like the docks, it's like a one that's a very unique. Yes, it looks very location. It's like a one that's a very unique. Yes. Um, locations. Yeah. Very different.

And, uh, initially, cause you love the idea and I love the idea of like, cool. Once you, once you go there, you interact with it, you pick up the whole location tile and then you swap it with another location tile. I really like that. I think that's so much fun. MPCs, items and all. And it was this kind of thing of like, it's just a little bit. It's a bit messy. I don like that. I think that's so much fun. NPCs, items and all. And it was this kind of thing of like, it's just a little bit. It's a bit messy.

I don't know. It's a bit messy. It's just like, it's that annoying thing of like, if you've got- Things are falling off. You've got, yeah, exactly. It's just like literally for practical reasons, it doesn't work like that. But that is something very fun about that. Yeah.

Like, yeah. So that was like, you're looting then it was like, okay, what about lose some health and you go anywhere on the board. And you can, yeah. And the idea is you go there and you, they just drop you. Which I think is kind of funny as well. But it's not as, yeah, not as like, changing the board. What's crazy about that as well is that you would slowly rearrange the board the more you used it.

You'd be moving tiles around like crazy. But look, the more you say it, I'm liking it more. Yeah, but remember it's, you know, somebody has to go in there He moved between they have to pick it up They're probably gonna knock over NPCs other player characters walk over this standees Then you gotta pick up another one and it's so impractical, but it is very fun Yeah, but yeah, so those are that's I mean like, you know The it's this crazy thing that when you finish making the board game, development has not stopped,

that you actually keep going up until release basically. March 18th, put it in your calendars. And again, it's also very, I can't get, it's also very like, weirdly like frightening and scary. Oh, it's terrifying. This thing, this thing that was like an idea and it's just like has, you know, this concept that we've just been working and tooling away. But yeah, we've done when it's done and we're having fun with it. Yeah, exactly.

It's kind of nice and now we get to be like, you can all like have it and maybe play it. Play it and see if it's good. And like, you know, you could then, you know, do some stuff or then you could message me and say that I've done a terrible job. Yeah, actually this game is broken and you're an idiot. Yeah, exactly. Stupid, stupid man. And I'm like, yeah, okay I should be ashamed of myself. Yeah, actually this game is broken and you're an idiot. Yeah, exactly.

Stupid, stupid man. And I'm like, yeah, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah, so it is, no, it truly, it's truly terrifying to get to this point. To be so close to release, to kind of like a real moment of truth,

to be like, will people like this? I mean, I think it's great. I think it's genuinely separate from, you know, I mean, obviously you can never be truly separate from it, but separate from any involvement I have in it, I, after playing it for hundreds and hundreds of hours, still enjoy playing a game of this game, and I think that's a pretty good sign.

But, and I hope everybody will like it too, but god damn. What I love is, yeah, seeing other people play it, and then having a good time, and then getting it. What I was always so frightened of, I guess like you're making a complicated rule, maybe, thing, and then being like, time and then getting it. What I was always so frightened of, I was like, you're making a complicated rule, maybe thing. And then then being like, this is actually really easy. Like if you want to dip your toes into like a dungeon crawler, this is a really good game for it.

It's pretty like, very like, you know, simplified. And I'm like, oh, thank God. Thank God it's simplified, dude. Thank God. Phew. It's really, you know, yeah, there's some rules here, but they're very easy to get in wrapping. Yeah, once you wrap your head around.

Oh, thank God. Oh, God damn. Cause yeah, that's such a big deal. Oh, it's truly the fear. And I think that's because it was in the beginning. Yeah. Before we properly figured it out. Yeah.

That's that was people's reaction. They'd be like, oh, this is your game. It's very complicated. Walls, you said. Walls, OK. Why would you do that? Oh, actually, this is really simple and fun. You're like, oh, thank God.

So yeah, hey, March 18th. Yes. get excited. We will probably be doing a live stream on the SandSpit Radio Twitch channel that night. SandSpit Radio at twitch.com. Dot twitch.tv, SandSpit Radio dot twitch.tv. Where we'll be just there for the launch and also doing some playing on board game simulator,

tabletop simulator, the game. So you can watch that if you want to be there for the launch. I hope you buy it. I hope you help support it because again, it's a weird thing to kind of like put it out there. Put yourself out there at this weird kind of place. I really hope people like this.

I hope people get behind this because it's a lot of fun. I really hope you have a fun time with it. Me too. When you get into it. Get into it and you're doing strategies we could never even think of. That's you know every time we come up with a new mechanic or whatever or a new ability for a player character I'm always like I want to know what freaky shit people are going to do with this you know. How are you going to exploit this game? How are you going to break the game? That's what I want to find out about. Yeah, definitely. Like, and that's, that's also like, again, I've mentioned before, I'm excited to see what other people can do, like what they want to do with it as well. There's like, even like, we hopefully made it like a decent kind of like, you know, rule set in the game.

I'm also looking forward to those like home rules. Yeah, me too. Because other people can kind of do with it. Because what have you done to? Yeah. There's a lot of fun you can do with it. And like, I, again, once again, you hope it's like, I hope I hope it's very I hope it's successful like partly because you think that doesn't feel like you know Yes, yeah, yeah, like I hope it's successful in the sense that I'm like I want to do more of these

It's like this weird thing in like I didn't think that I'd get to this point like, you know This far into my career as a podcaster. Yeah Yeah, but again this fire into like, you know, like my career my life as a podcaster. Yeah. Yuck. But again, this fire into like, you know, like my career, my life, well, like, you know, 38 and being like, oh, I found something I really enjoy. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. I love doing these, you know, making these like board games.

It's been like so much fun. It's very rewarding. Yeah. It's taken us a long time, but like, yeah, but it hasn't always been consistent. It hasn't always been. Well, yeah, I know we say it's taken most of a decade or whatever, but not really. I think if you, it's between everything else is like so crucial to remember. It's like between everything else and between COVID.

Yes, exactly. The amount of time we actually had to dedicate to it, especially in the early days was extremely minimal. So it's been just a heap of fun. And I love that, like the experience of it all. And I hope it does well so that it gives me an excuse to keep doing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm looking forward to the next one,

whatever we end up doing. Yeah, for sure. I'm looking forward to being like, oh, okay, oh, if people really jelted with this. They'd be like, well, more expansions. What else can we do? More characters. Like, there's so many options.

I mean, I remember not promising anything, of course, but I remember very early on, we were like, well, a fun expansion would be to take like those season one characters. Like, what if you could make a Jiggle Lump character to play through the game as a nasty orange cat or a Criff or, you know, like season one Leo or Ainsley. Like, you know, like there's's that if the game does well those

options are out there. I remember you being like yeah this idea of like this like the the expansion idea of like an inky black where you're getting sort of the more the more reason kind of thing. Yeah, yeah to be like could you make some tiles get inky blacked and some you know NPCs become inky blacked and it's like a kind of scenario you got to deal with. And yeah, so there's a bunch of other stuff that we could do with the game if it does well and hopefully it does so we get the opportunity to keep making it. Yeah, again, that is also like, it's like weird to find like, yeah, I guess something you really enjoy doing to be like, this is a little fun, I want to do more of this. And like, yeah, so, um, I hope you all enjoy the game. I hope you all like, yeah, uh, bookmark the Kickstarter page.

Yes, please do. And, uh, yeah, March 18th. March 18th. Um, support this wonderful little project we've been chipping away at. Um, and follow our socials and we'll post about it there a bunch on the Sam Smith radio, uh, you know, Twitter account, Discord, Instagram, all of that shit. Sam Smith radio dot Twitch dot TV.

On the 18th, we will be there for the launch to play the game on tabletop simulator and shit and just talk to you and be excited about it. So please be there, watch us, join us. And on that note, I'm Jackson Bailey. And I am Joel Zampt. Holy shit. Damn.

So long. See you next week. Hey there, fellow adventurer. If you're picking up what we're putting down and want more D&D content, we have just what you need to scratch that itch. D&D is for nerds plus, the symbol not the word, where you can listen to select campaigns

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