D&D is For Nerds - Jarren’s Development Blog #6 – How Mean is Too Mean?

Episode Date: April 4, 2025

Jackson, Adam and Zammit are here to talk about threading the needle when making a game where we want you to be mean to your friends. Also we got funded! Holy Cow! Thank you all so much!With less than a week to go, you can head on over to the Kickstarter to help unlock more stretch goals and support our board gaming endeavours! Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's finally here, the board game based on Jaren's Outposts we've been threatening new since 2018 is launching on Kickstarter tonight, or today, or it's already live March 18, 4pm UK time, which is March 19, 3am Melbourne time. So either way, if you've dreamed of playing a board game, designed in part by myself, Jackson and Adam, do I have the best news? We've got a regular version, a Blood Cultie expansion, and a shiny deluxe version you can get your hands on. Just head on over to Kickstarter and search for Jaren's Outpost

and help support this harebrained scheme of ours of bringing one of our campaigns to life in the form of a board game. It's 2-5 players, it's silly, quick to learn, and it's always fun screwing over your good friends. We're going to be demoing it over at twitch.tv slash sanspantsradio during the campaigns, so be sure to check out our socials for updates. And by socials, I just mean the Discord and the Facebook stuff and nonsense group. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that one post.

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["The Star-Spangled Banner"] ["The Star-Spangled Banner"] Ugh. Struggling, stuck. ["The Star-Spangled Banner"] Hello and welcome to the latest episode of the Jaren's Outpost vlog. Before we get into whatever we're going to talk about today, let's just say, wow! Wow, wow, he's a holy fucking macaroni!

Congratulations to us and to you. Yeah, exactly. It's crazy. A million billion thank yous from us to you. I thought I was very behind on how much money we'd made. Thank you so much for a million dollars. A million billion dollars? Is that that much money in the world?

Yeah, it's crazy. We're doing very well for ourselves. We're all going to Sharon's house to the board game. It's insane. No, genuinely, from the bottom of our hearts, we kind of thank you enough for what everybody's pledged. It's far exceeded any of my expectations. Yeah, 100%. It's crazy because again, I think I've mentioned this before, maybe one of the

in like, perhaps the like the the SansPants plus Discord, but it's like, it's weird running a comedy network like a comedy show like about all the stuff we do is most, you know, it's mostly comedy. It's comedy based. Avang god comedy. And because of that very nature, it's hard sometimes to either come across as genuine or to actually, like, genuinely, I've been in situations where I am being very genuine in my personal life. It's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yuck and all that. But no, I'm being sincere right now.

But yeah, so it is crazy to crazy to think like yeah, it is Has surpassed our- Well, yeah, I mean, you know, I sort of I you know I trusted that we made a good enough game Yeah, and that we had enough fans who loved what we did and wanted to support us that when we launched that we would get Funded like I was like that's a lock. Okay, like that's I think we can get there and then for that to happen in four hours Yeah, you know go to sleep and then wake up and it's it's been done I couldn't even I just couldn't believe it and then I kept on being like well, holy shit

Okay, you know, obviously is the rush at the beginning, but it will slow down I mean, yes a little bit but it's still every day I wake up and it's going up again and it's going on there's Still people who are you pledge and support us. I feel the exact same way. Yeah, I keep expecting like to wake up and to not... To see the number hasn't meaningfully changed and that hasn't happened yet. Yeah, it's truly crazy how many people are still continuing to support. Like I can't believe that.

I thought we were gonna get there like, alright cool, we'll do... Because we did a stream directly after, like when we woke up for us, it launched 3 a.m. our time, so we were like, oh yeah, about 9 a.m. we'll do a stream. I honestly thought we'd be like, enduring this stream, we'd be like, hey, we've been funded, you know, well done, thank you. Thank you everyone, well done.

And then we'd be like, oh, we're so close, like we just need a couple more people to pledge and we'll get funded, but we were, you know, well and truly there by the time we started the stream, which is crazy. I think the craziest thing for me, and this being a success, and I was thinking about this the day we streamed, when I was waiting for the train to go home, I was like, it's crazy that now I can say I'm a board game developer. That that's a title that I legitimately have.

I can say, if I'm at a party and I meet someone, I say, what do you do? I say, oh, I'm a podcaster. Embarrassing. embarrassing humiliating experience And a board game developer intriguing Wow and true like that's the weirdest part. It's real. Yeah, I really have developed a board game Yeah, it's tangible. It's there you can happen. That's absurd It feels like exactly that line from that touch it tasty taste, but don't feel So much you mean We've been out but she know But don't taste taste but don't swallow is that the one you mean Oh, I keep trying to tell you but you keep talking over me

Well, you know, look you give us a little iota of maybe doing our but you know, we're gonna take it exactly dude You gotta be chill. Oh us. Yeah, exactly dude, you gotta understand. Don't Pacino us! Yeah. If we get Pacino'd, I mean... If I Pacino back, can I get attention? Yeah! Huge ass! Yes, Adam! Huge ass!

Yes! The producers with, um, with Matthew Broderick and with Nathan Lane. Nathan Lane, yeah. See ya, touch it, taste it. Yeah, okay. Anyway, that's a reference that I think a lot of people will get. with Nathan Lane. Nathan Lane, yeah. See it, touch it, taste it. Yeah, okay. Anyway, that's a reference that I think a lot of people will get.

Ah. I think the comments are gonna be filled. I wonder if we got more people listening and watching. I wonder if they are more likely to be Devil's Advocate fans. Yeah, or producers fans. I, um. Let us know.

You can split the entire Sands Pits listenership into two categories. I was doing a stream the other day I was playing Doom64 yeah, and I promise this is gonna be a very short tangent I was playing doom 64 and I realized that the majority of my audience was so young they had never played Any of the dooms before like doom Doom Eternal. That's crazy, dude. We've, on Thumb Cramps, become kind of obsessed

with trying to find a PSP, what are they called, UMD? Which is the videos that you can play on the PSP of Glengarry Glen Ross. I was there when it happened. And I know, yes you were too, and I know every time we talk about it that most of our listeners are like, what the, who the, what's this?

Who's Glengarry Glen Ross? You gotta watch it, it's a great movie. You know the references at least. know being the audience yeah yeah I see theater the mind that's something I didn't get but no anyway so yeah what like genuinely from the bottom of our hearts thank you I mean it's not over yet which is also crazy yeah yeah yeah foot site two weeks as of time of recording yeah two weeks still on the thing I remember when we were doing that stream. I remember thinking to myself Man, it'd be really nice. Like if we got 50k, yeah, I'd be really good

I mean, maybe we have enough time to get 50k still. Yeah, we're like 64 It's like I can't believe it Kind of weird thing we like it cool I think you know I know how much to get funded. And this is like, you know, cool. To get funded was like sweet. That means that we'll have enough to print and ship and do all that kind of stuff, which

means that fantastic. And let a little bit of like, you know, behind the scenes in terms of like how much it's going to cost and everything. But like, look, that was a loss. Yeah. Yeah. Sort of thing. And so it's this kind of thing of like, it doesn't matter because at the end of the day

I'm like, we've made this thing and We never made it to just you know try and make money Yeah, I think it would be kind of heartbreaking to not in have people play it. You know, I mean Yeah, like obviously there is you know, you you don't know you can pretend that it's not true But there is this element of like well We've invested so much time in it to have some kind of reward, some kind of tangible reward would be amazing. But really, if that doesn't happen,

it doesn't really matter. Because what is more rewarding somehow is seeing people taking it, having a board game night and playing this thing that we've worked so hard on. I don't know, this thing that we're very proud of and that we put so much time into, that's like, that kind of was the primary driving force. I remember that moment Joel that you were talking about where I think we were at around

50k when we hit around that. That was when you sat down and you properly like... Went back all the years and looked at some of the invoices and all that kind of stuff. We were sitting at about 200% funded and you were like, boys, boys, we broke even. Yeah. Yeah. And it is that. But we were so ready for that not to happen. Yeah.

And so OK with that not happening. As we mentioned before, many of the things we've done, it's like, yes, it's taken seven years to get here and in those seven years so much has happened. And a lot of the artwork that we've gotten done has been within that first two years of development. And so a lot of the operational costs or whatever was kind of like, ah, that's kind of already been done with. And it's kind of like my own dumb brain to be just like, well, that's gone.

That was eaten up when seven years ago, it's kind of like my own dumb brain to be just like well that's gone That was eaten up when you know except for years ago. It's fine It's all part of like either the profit and loss of like you know a company Yeah, sure and so I'm kind of like yeah, whatever who cares and so like you know sure should I have kept track of course? Yes, but yeah, correct now Yeah, enough How much has been learnt? Oh, we're not good at learning, Larson. It's not for us. So yeah, so there's weird things to be like, yeah, cool.

Like, you know, sure, we've got like, and there's a lot more that went in like this year. Yeah. And it's going in this year, because again, like print costs is going to be quite expensive because, you know, just that when you're printing that much and like you're printing all this kind of stuff, yeah, it's going to cost like something like,

so I want to say 16k Australian, if you're right about that, in terms of just the print, right? And so all these things will cost money and all this kind of stuff. And a lot of the things that we've spent money on has been in the past. So for me, I'm just like, yeah, it's gone. But it was my wife who was like, hey, just maybe add up.

Just for your own sake. Just do the math on that. Yeah. I understand that you're excited, and this is all done, and you like doing this but you know just see if it is a vibe you want to pursue as well like I think I've mentioned on the episodes where I had so much fun doing this like I get when people who make sort of like either a like a certain genre of film yeah I think Tarantino did it with or when he did it after, was it Kill Bill?

Where he's like, cool, I really want to make a martial arts film. Yeah, because I've now done the... Yeah, for sure. Learned so much here, I really want to go and make a martial arts film. And I kind of feel the same kind of thing now with this, which is like, I was feeling that way anyway before we launched because I'm like, I've learned so much about this, I'm really looking forward to making the next one and but like you know say if it had tanked yeah exactly

well it's day six and no one's pledged yet more 100 bucks or whatever it's like you know it's kind of like a little bit is that like external validation to be like oh cool that is a that is something that we could in like you know pursue yeah if we wanted to you know like I think this weird thing as well where with a podcast, just to bring it back to even that, you know, we get in here, you know, like every day in a week sometimes, you do like a couple episodes, and then it kind of just disappears into the ether, and then people listen to it, and you can see the stats or whatever, you can look at that, but you just kind of don't, the connection between the people, all of you out there that are listening to this

and doing it, sometimes it's hard to see that connection. So I think in a way it is really validating to see how quickly that we got funded to be like, oh, that's right, you're all kind of out there. You know what I mean? You have been listening and you have been following this for the last seven years. Like you are, I don't know,

I think there's something very rewarding about that. And of course there is this idea of like, well, you've got to get your internal validation from it. Anyway, which I think we do, but think there's something very rewarding about that. 100%. And of course there is this idea of like, well you gotta get your internal validation from it anyway, which I think we do, but like at the same time, it's very nice to see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's been wonderful to wake up

and just kind of like refresh and see like, what's happening to see. So it's like, you know, we have stretch goals and it was like, oh yeah, maybe we'll give them, maybe we won't, I really, really hope we do. And then it's like, okay, we're going through them and it's just fantastic. And so like, you yeah, maybe we'll get them, maybe we won't, I really, really hope we do. And then it's like, okay, we're going through them and it's just fantastic. And so like, you know, we're again,

we're a few hundred dollars away as of time recording for like the next stretch goal. It's like, okay, wow, cool. I didn't think we'd be there now. And as you said, Adam was like, there is still like two weeks to go. A long time. As of time recording.

As of time recording. Yeah. And so it's just like, oh wow, yeah, no,. As a time recording. As a time recording. Yeah. And so it's just like, oh wow, yeah, no, okay, cool. Like it's a chance we can, you know, cause I can't, we put so much time, energy, love into developing the extra bonus characters. Yeah. I know it's that thing where you're like,

it would be such a shame for them not to get out there. Like because how sad and they just sit here. I know that. So it's very exciting every time somebody's unlocked you oh fuck yeah they get to play as Evelyn play you know I get to play as flip shame yeah I remember when I forget who we were talking with someone about funding and stuff like that and they asked you what you're like moonshot basically what you're like oh my god this would be like the upper

end of what you think is achievable basically and you know first of course we did the hundred million billion yeah but after that you were like kind of seriously I guess a hundred thousand yeah a hundred thousand dollars you were like that'd be like that'd be just like, dang, man. That is, I actually could not conceive of us making a number higher than that. That's literally like if for some reason, um, the government gets involved and is like, we need to fund this board game. That's how much money I imagine we'd get. And I feel like right now, I'm sitting here looking at 100k and I kind of feel you know

fucking knock on wood yeah but I feel right now the same way I felt when we did the stream looking at 50k yeah yeah yeah yeah like oh I guess that's like achievable that's insane no not even like that being like oh man I'd like I feel like 100k is still like it still feels moonshotting. It still feels almost out of reach. But what I'm thinking is I'm looking back. 50 felt out of reach. I'm looking back on that moment when I thought

50 felt out of reach and thinking, well, I mean, we got the 50. I'm so cautiously, tentatively optimistic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is crazy to think that, even in my own head, I'm like, yeah, but we're not gonna get 100 optimistic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It is crazy to think that like, you know, even in my own head, I'm like, yeah, but you know, we're not gonna get 100K. Yeah, of course.

We're not. Who knows? Yeah, absolutely. It's like, yeah, it's 14 days. And then I think, you know, there's that, but then also like looking at the amount of people backing. And sometimes I look at the amount of people who've backed and I go, every one of them will get

to play the board game I made. That's like, you know, 500 people or whatever that are gonna be taking that board game home. Something that someone did was, I didn't think about this, I was telling someone about this, and they were like, how many players is the board game? And I was like, oh, it's like two to five,

which is what we recommend. And they took, I forget how many backers we had at that moment, but they were like, oh, crazy, like 1,500. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, I said we had 300 backers we had at that moment, but they were like, oh crazy like 1500 and I was like no no no no I said we had 300 backers or whatever it was and they were like, yeah. Yeah, that's how many board games but how many people playing Friends, you know, yeah, it's it's truly like me you might you know get the Garfield plushie out and you might play your board game with that. It's easier when you're doing it with Monopoly I think. Yeah, but yeah, it's crazy. Like again, can't thank everybody who's pledged and donated. I'm normal by the way. We know. Bro. You all know I'm normal. I know you're normal. And I've always been normal. Yeah, I know.

Yeah, dude. It's okay. Everybody plays Borg. As a kid I had the Pokemon trading card game and I just bought heaps of the little shiny tokens. You know it came with little like glass beads that you would put on to like, I don't know what they indicated. I remember them, yeah. Cause I never really played the game. I just bought heaps of the beads.

Cause I just loved holding them. Friend of the show Hayden freaking loves the digital card game. Oh really? Yeah I don't care for the card game. I care for the beads. Yeah, you're there for beads. I'm in it for beads. That's fair Yeah, okay. Okay. Yeah, I certainly you know very occasionally would play like, you know magic the gathering kind of stuff like that But again, it was like yeah, you just don't know Gathering. Didn't have too many people to play with. Yeah, Froth me Magic the Gathering. What I don't like about it is, weirdly, I don't like the deck building. Yeah, interesting.

I like having the deck and then doing what I can. You know what I mean? I think there's something, because both you and Joel Dusha both kind of like playing Magic the Gathering, and maybe you do too, Adam, I don't know. But it's this, it always feels, as an an outside observer like this cliff you could both fall off oh it is you get this glint in your eyes and I'm like I gotta put it's like you're

about to become werewolves I gotta chain my boys there you need to take them over recently within like I think within the year I want to say they had like it almost looked like Mouse Guard. Oh, interesting. They teamed up with, I forget who it was, but it was just like, you know, like anthropomorphic little critters. And I'm a sucker. Yeah, dude, that is your forte. Oh my lord.

I'm a pirate. You know what I'm actually kibble for Joel's habit. Oh my god. You know what I'm kind of looking forward to? When we can play a board game that isn't Jaren's Heart Puddist. Yes dude. I'm going away this weekend. I'm looking forward to playing some other board games that aren't this our game.

As much fun as it is. Well and again, you know, I did an interview on the ABC recently. That was crazy. Which was insane for me to do. But as part of that, they were like, you're still enjoying the game. And I was like, I am. You know, hundreds and hundreds of playtests in.

I'm still having a great time playing this board game, which is crazy. Like, I'm excited to play new board games. But if you were like, Jackson, we need to playtest this. I'd be like, okay, well, I'll get into it. You know what I mean? I like it when I win.

Yeah, me too. Well, we thought today, what we would talk about is, so one of the main aspects, one of the, I think the sort of like the cornerstones, I suppose you could say, of the Jaren's Outpost board game is this idea of a kind of screwing over your friends, right? Of like backstabbing, betrayals, because that was a huge part of what made

Jaren's Outpost the campaign great, and we were like, well, we gotta translate that to the board game. But that's a delicate, delicate balance. That's a delicate line to walk. So I thought, yeah, yeah. Yeah, today we talk about how do you walk that line? How do you make a game that's mean, but not too mean?

Because for the longest time, I think I was probably the most resistant to this. Yes, yeah, yeah. Because I kept. Really? I don't remember that. Yeah, yeah, well, I think I was probably the most resistant to this. Yes, yeah, yeah. Because I kept... Really? I don't remember that. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think that's...

And like, there's not really a problem with it, but I think that's like a lot of your mentality, even when it comes to like D&D in general, is you're like... You like a cohesiveness, which I think is fair enough. Um, I think it's cohesive, sure, but I think it's like, again, maybe your youngest sibling. Yeah, yeah, true. He's like, hey, keep the peace. I chill. Chill. Everyone chill. Yeah. I guess not fight. Yeah. Kind of like a version of that. I get typically, which is like, I want, I don't mind like, Jared's outpost is kind of like the perfect

level of competition. Yeah. Hmm. Like Jackson? Yeah. Hahaha. Giant's Outpost is the, for those of you only listening to this, he just gave me a standing ovation. Yeah. Giant's Outpost is kind of like the perfect level of competition that I'm comfortable with in a board game, where yes, we are competing with each other to see who gets the highest score,

but we're not competing with each other to see who gets the highest score, but we're not Directly fighting each other like a game like risk stresses me the fuck I've never played risk in my life Stressful game you'd hate it I played risk only once at like a getaway with a bunch of friends that I don't really see anymore And I think it was possibly the worst way to be introduced to risk because I was like on the outside of this friendship group too Don't know what's going on, and then I just I don't know it's probably doing something stupid by being like

You know you're trying to make deals and be like hey you want to become best friends with your way Dealing in risk yeah, I don't know I had a bad time. Yeah, but uh yeah, so I what I mean to say is like yeah, but not the competition but I guess it's like I Always use like a girl ever L because it's the one of the most recent in my mind There's a card you can play which is like the fool Mmm, you will like you can play it into someone else's village and like so ever L the whole thing is like you know, it's you're building a city and you have like say 15 cards maximum is your city.

And so, and that includes people and buildings. So is it like Dominion? It's like a card building. Haven't played Dominion. I've seen Watchtower, you played Dominion, but I haven't actually played. Is Everdell then all cards? And worker placement.

So it's worker placement and cards. Okay. Kind of like if you imagine Viticulture, but if at the same time you had a deck that you were building. It's been so long I actually don't remember how to play Viticulture. Anyway, keep going. And so you have 15 slots basically for what you have, and there's a one card in it which is called the Fool, and you can play it in someone else's town town basically which will not only take up a slot It is also worth less points or like even negative points or zero points It's quite mean and I know if I get it I will play it and the thing is I often play it with say

my wonderful wife My wife? Or some other friends and I'm'm like, I know I could play this. Because again, I'm that kind of piece of shit. And I'm like, well I want to win. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Very true. And that's like, that strategy brain kicks in. And I'm like, well this makes sense to win.

So I'm going to win. I'm sorry. And I don't want to be that guy. Because I don't want to be too mean. And I assume Joel Zammet, as a man who has a brain for for For board games specifically I imagine this is a consideration that you have to have very often But it is funny when you're playing with people that you love and it's a competitive game Especially if it's kind of a vicious yeah competitive game where you're making that move and the move is essentially you saying hey

I love you very much. Yeah But not only I'm gonna beat you. Yeah. But not only, I'm gonna beat you right now. Yeah. But not only am I gonna beat you, I'm gonna crush you. Yeah. I'm gonna crush you into the dirt. I'm about to pee up. And then I'm gonna take your resources

and I'm gonna use them to crush your sister. Oh yeah, dude. Oh yeah. Or whoever, you know, if you're playing with family members. But it's very funny, because I remember the one, I think I've paid ever though Maybe two times and I remember getting the full and being like oh I cannot wait to put him in someone like that was the most exciting moment for me

I know I was like who's gonna get the full And again, it's great because again in my head it like it hits that kind of like yeah Yeah, but also no I'm like no I'm to me because I've already got the reputation of like mostly in the main friendship Yeah, like already winning and it just feels like a more of a dick move on my behalf Why did you do this why you fucking me you're gonna win We know you're going to win Yes, we do

to win. We don't know yet for sure. Like, yes we do. I'm like, ah. So yeah, so when it came to like, yeah, how to directly involve and like fuck over your other players with this game, again, a lot of me was very much being more resistant. I mean, more like restraint and being pulling it back. Because I kept imagining. For when we play test, saving us from the embarrassment of losing handily to you and

you're fucking us. Yeah. Yeah So sort of things like you know stealing from the players or from like you know attacking other players or from like oh You know this this item might make you drop something or just take it off you this whatever whatever And so I was very resistant to that because like all I kept remembering was that one player and again We all maybe know this person. Yeah, and we all maybe You know either are still friends with this person. Or maybe not anymore. Or dread playing board games with this person.

Because they take it to heart. And they get real stroppy. And they get real shitty. And I guess like, you know, you can't help, but when you're playing these kinds of games, or even any kind of board games, because I think it's a weird thing, we're like trying to remember back in like,

high school times, like, you know, when you play something like Magic the Gathering, actually, I can remember like having this one deck It's called like the slivers deck. Yeah. Yeah, like a Conti deck Like it was the worst deck to play with because like, alright cool All my creatures now, they go plus plus one plus one Okay, and now they're flying and they have trample and they can teleport and they're all wizards And they think you're a big piss baby. That's Win yeah, and like yeah, you're playing that against someone and like, you know, and they were good friend and I'm like they got

Stroll, absolutely. I've definitely I've known that guy. I've played with that guy and I can't speak about you know I don't want to kill friendships But then you know, there's also there's this this piece of advice it's writing advice but I forget who it may be Stephen King. Probably me. Probably Adam actually my good friend Adam gave me this piece of advice. Oh yeah. Where he was like I'm often confused my writing is often confused with Stephen King. Yeah yeah yeah. You're often writing about writers. Because they're both high on cocaine! But they whoever this writer was, they were like,

don't write for the person that's gonna hate your book. They're like, write for the hypothetical person for whom your book is gonna hit them in the exact perfect place. And so I think I've always had that mentality with our board game where I'm like, yes, that guy is out there, but he's not my ideal player.

Yeah. If he's getting strappy, that's his business. He but he's not my ideal player. Yeah, he's getting stroppy. That's his business He's got nothing to do with me. Yeah, my ideal player is the person who gets fucked over in this game and goes man That's awesome Maybe I fuck oh, that's the way I can fuck you over. Okay Yeah, but I get it because also that guy will probably play this game Yeah, you know just statistically So it is that yeah, it is that fine line to walk and I like to think even though I'm like, yeah

Whatever screw that guy that still the game is designed in such a way that the screwing over that does happen is Pro it's less likely to make that guy furious. You know, I think we've that's the balance Yeah now have that kind of like really fine line, especially when it's less likely to make that guy furious. That's the balance. Yeah, now I have that really fine line, especially when it's like cool. Quests are pretty quick to achieve, and so they're kind of like, okay, yep, these quests, we want them to be able to churn through them.

So that yeah, hey, if someone beats you to the punch, that sucks, next one. You got another option. And so yeah, if someone steals the item that you were gonna do, or the person you were gonna do, and they did it instead of you, you're like, yeah, it's fine. But ultimately maybe you've lost, you know, you didn't get the point But now it's like, okay those extra there'd be two turns you're like, well, yeah, that's only two All you're losing is a little bit of progress. Yeah, and that's kind of where I feel

I think there's a little bit as well of like the do you remember when you're a kid and this is something that Going back to a much earlier topic of talking about how I am old compared to some people. Do you remember back in the day, you'd go over to a friend's house and you'd play guitar hero and they, you didn't have guitar hero, they had guitar hero. So they were really good. You were not so good.

And it was very apparent. I remember, I have this experience too, yes. I think that, and I hope the nature that our board game can only really be played with multiple people. I hope that kind of negates this, because I think a lot of the like fucking over that happens to another player, there is obviously the location,

the Surefoot School for wayward children, which has the very obvious and very designed effect of you can steal from another player. Aside from that, a lot of the other items and abilities that fuck over other players are the sort of thing that you really only, you need to be a bit good or know a little bit about the game before you can start really thinking about it and playing with. Because I think, I believe, a new time player, something like the loot, which can bring an NPC to you, you can use that to take an NPC from a backpack from someone else. No, it's not a skilling. There are items that let you do things like that.

Yeah, sure. I think, yeah, with the stretch goals, I think we've added some NPCs and stuff where you can also steal from other players. Then perhaps the spell book, which allows you to imitate something that is in someone else's backpack. And then using that, using the spell book to undercut someone like that is... I wouldn't describe it as high level play, but it's not something that you might necessarily think of on the first time. Well, I think the way the board game is designed, and this happened to us through play testing quite a bit, and then when we added the new stuff, like you discover these weird combinations

as well, where there's a lot of like, new tech unlocked kind of moments. Like for example, being like, because is it the grappling hook lets you move to any location? Yeah, it's like grab an's you move to any location? Yeah, grab an item or move to any location. Yeah, so with that you're like, oh I could use the blank spell book as the grappling hook to move myself to someone else's location to drop off this item at their, you know, whoever's in their backpack to kind of still use it. And that is like a high level. But so yeah, there is some level of like once you get to learn the game more you're like, oh wait I can do this. Oh wait I can do this. Oh wait, I can do that. Yeah, I bring that up to say I think I think something that

First was frustrating back in the day of not being as good at The game is the person who owns the game something Frustrating about that is if you were just on a similar playing level it wouldn't be such a big deal Yeah, and I think the a lot of the other player fucking mechanics yeah are kind of require a higher level of skill and if everyone is at that higher level of skill then it feels better I think yeah yeah I I I could very easily imagine someone getting a bit frustrated at the idea of like oh I didn't realize that I could do that I could very easily imagine someone getting a bit frustrated at the idea of

Like oh, I didn't realize that I could do that I could use the blank spellbook as the grappling hook to move over here I hadn't thought of that but because it's like a multiple person. I figured where I was going with this Well, is it the kind of idea that when somebody does that to you you go? Oh, I can do that You know what? I mean, that's what I think like I'm playing a game with someone I've not played the game before somebody does that to me. I go. Oh, I can do that to you, you go, Oh, I can do that. You know what I mean? That's what I think. Like I'm playing a game with someone I've not played the game before. Somebody does that to me. I go, Oh, I can do that to them. You know what I mean? Okay. I see where this is at. Oh, you've shown me that that's a strategy I can use. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. It's funny to think about with this game that very early on, because if you remember, and

we've spoken about this before, initially you had your own quests or you just shared a quest with the person to your left. And when that happened, the reason we changed that is we were like, oh, there are players that aren't interacting in a four player game. And then deciding, making the decision that everybody has access to, or is required to complete all the quests, that they affect everybody,

that was another moment of like, oh, now you're truly fucking people over. Oh yeah, 100%. Because I think when it was like, oh just the person to your left you're sharing it with, we had this idea of like, well, you know, you might have a quest that requires Laura Fillmore over here, you know, between these two people

and between those two people, so you're kind of fucking each other over. But it wasn't so direct, you know what I mean? You weren't trying to complete the same quest. I think it was to try and encourage direct competition. Yeah, yeah. Because then if you and I are sharing a quest where I mean like you maybe have that quest over there But it feels you everyone has two quests Yeah, it feels way more in direct competition when we're looking at this we're both looking at this one quest being yeah

Only one of us is getting it. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Yes, because initially I was that you know one person you had your solo quest Yeah, it was like it was fun. Yeah, so because initially it was that, you know, one person you had your solo quest, which was like, it was fun, it was fine, but it honestly felt like I was playing a single player game and my friends were also in the same vicinity. Yeah. God, I remember solo quests. Yeah, and it just felt a little bit like, eh, and also like the solo quest didn't really like double up. So there was no like, you know, you needed like this particular item in NPC. Usually the other person did not. Yeah. And it was very much like, I'm single track needed this particular item in NPC, usually the other person did not. And it was very much like, I'm single track, single mindedly doing this one thing. And it was like, eh, eh.

We realised that more important, I think, what we realised is more important than we both need this item is, oh, he's going for that item. Yes. Which, playing open with the quests, everyone having the same quest and everyone knowing one Someone could be going to yeah Yeah, that causes more direct competition than being like, oh is zam it going to the outpost? Yeah, you're gonna get an item from the yeah, what's he looking for? Yeah, and so there was like, you know from that to then being like, I will share with the person to your left

Yeah, and so that was that cool. Well, then everyone is sharing everyone's got two quests Yeah, like, you know, if you're a combat character or a, you know, more of a fetch character, you can kind of like, well, hopefully just by pure RNG, maybe you're gonna get one that's kind of benefits you. And then it was like, oh yeah, cool. And then because, you know, this is three of us, we kept doing a lot of three player games,

but then it's like, you know, okay, well what about we do four players or five players? And then you're like, yeah, cool. So yeah, me and you were interacting, you and you were interacting, but then me and and you well, I'm never really doing anything Yeah, we kind of had this like, you know moment of like, okay on that situation Do you either a have to how do you include them into like, you know direct competition or is like or? D do you go? Okay, is there something we can do to be like well, I'm direct competition with these guys

But maybe you and I are friends yes yeah yeah and I friends and you know and so you know we kind of toyed around with that for a little bit but ultimately we fell to the side of like yeah no well why don't everyone can do that all the quests absolutely I think there was there was a period of time where we were like maybe this game will involve a kind of wheeling and dealing aspect yeah of like being able to make deals with other people whatever whatever. And I mean, obviously, there's no nothing in the rules that explicitly forbids that. If you in the game have the gold nugget and the person opposite you has a, I don't know, silver seal, and you're like, hey, trade me. And they say,

yes, you can. Whatever. I are, look, I would argue make that explicit before the game starts. Yes, yeah, yeah. Like the rules, those kind of things. Yeah. Um, cause again, it's the kind of stuff where you can be like, what the fuck? You know, and then again, we never intended for trade to happen randomly like that. And like, I don't, I haven't played that sort of game. We had rules for trade back in the day, do you remember?

Uh, I think we had rules for stealing off each other. Yeah, oh, that as well, yeah, but we also had rules for trade. Did we? Yeah. I do not remember that in a slice. I remember this, you had to be on the same square. And then if both players were willing, instead of a steal, which could also happen, and you also had to be on the same square,

but instead, I think we were even like, when I think we got to the point where we were like, where in the order of operations, where does trading with another player come in? That's crazy. But yeah, I remember we were like you have to be on the same square at the very least we agreed that much. Yeah, yep, yep, yep, yep.

And then I think we also because you specifically love this as a concept and I know why you love it as a concept because you are a snake. You're a snake. Snake in the grass baby. You're a snake in the grass, baby. You always pay last. In any game, you always pay last. And you loved that it could be like, oh, I'll make you this deal today,

and then tomorrow you do this thing for me. But then obviously- I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today, kind of bullshit. But then in the rules, we specifically, cause you wanted to write it like this, you specifically stated, but you don't have to keep to that.

Yes, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, part of that, I think- Cause you will never honor an agreement. Oh, of course not, which is stupid, because it means nobody would ever make the trade with me. But you know, I think part of this, part of this came from the fact that we wanted to adapt Jaren's Outpost, which was a game about lying

and betraying each other and stabbing each other in the back. And we wanted to turn that into the board game. So, you know, that felt like a direct translation. But then basically it was this, this like, well, one, that's not the game we're making. And two, it's, it has to be a board game. You know what I mean? Like, and you can make, you know, like, well, one, that's not the game we're making. Yeah. And two, it has to be a board game. You know what I mean? Like, and you can make, you know, like, party games, board

games, stuff that, you know, require those, you know, hidden roles, those type things. I mean, there's many that are successful. Um, but it was kind of like, you know, if we're doing that, how do you add that to the pre-existing game we already have in the game? We've got to really kind of like, you know, figure that one out. Um, and so, yeah, so yeah, so we decided instead of going down the wheeling and dealing, we were like,

all right, let's, everyone is like, all the quests are available, which then also enabled us to go, right, well, what if we thought about multiple ways of finishing a quest? Because big, say for example, we was like, all right, cool, Nihilatown or whatever, which is like, all right, take Laura Fillmore to one of the trading posts,

or to Little O's restaurant, right? And that was the quest. And that was it. And you only had one way of doing it. So the moment someone picked someone up, you're like, nah, I'm not doing that one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it was like, well, hell. Little O's restaurant told Laura Fillmore. And so we're like, all right, well, what about, you know, okay, we'll try and grab you in the mix. And then, you know, take them to either this place. And then like a lot of the quest will have the, all right, this person or this person to this location or this item. Yeah. And so we tried to be like, all right, let's have multiple ways of trying to do this quest. Yeah.

And that is also another way you can screw over your play in a lot more of a fear away. For sure. And it's this funny thing where like, it feels like, oh, you've opened it up to everyone, like it's not, but actually, because you're often so, I mean, for me anyway, I'm so locked into like, I gotta get groggy at a Littler's restaurant. I don't notice that say you happen to have Laura Fillmore in your backpack and you're heading for, I don't know,

somewhere else on the board, and then you're like, oh, I've completed the quest. And I'm like, fuck! What, damn! How'd he do it? Oh, right, yeah, of course. And then it's also funny, I think- That's why barbarian mode rules.

Yeah, well, that's true. Oh, they haven't said that. And yet you really, really only won when you didn't go full barbarian. When you ridst us, it was by going- Not barbarian. Not barbarian. Yeah, but I've got, if you count all of the quest points I've ever, prestige points I've ever accomplished.

True, true. I've accomplished way more prestige points. He's right. Doing barbarian mode. He's right, dude. He's got us there. There are a couple of things that were very late additions in terms of, and they were actually stuff that we were like, let's not do it. And then I sort of very close to the end of the game, we were like, whatever.

Like, which is the one I'm thinking of is it being able to attack each other. Yeah. So that was a thing that we had early on, but we were like, well, you never really. It's so rare to encounter one another. And this was also back when everybody was quite slow. Yeah. Quite slow and you had defense. Yeah, exactly.

And it was like a very complicated and kind of messy thing to attack someone. We were like, and then it got to, you know, we refine the game, refine the game, refine the game, and it became this very playable, very quick sort of thing that it is now. And I remember you, you were doing you were doing some Photoshop thing for an item card or something, and you're just like, why not? Like, what's the problem with it? Yeah, why are we restricting everybody? Yeah, I guess fair enough.

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See you there Hey cast helps creators launch grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere a cast calm Making sure that like we're freeing people up to kind of do whatever we want. Initially we had like the blank spell book being like a one and done. You use it once, it's out of the game for the whole game. You basically tear it up the whole way. And it's like, why? I mean, yeah, you could, if you wanted to, like, sure, go to the, is it like,

Greg Piss' warehouse to look through the item decks. Like, you use it. It goes to the item deck. You go to Greg Piss' warehouse. You roll. You pass the skill check, say. You can get it again. You look through the item decks like you use it it goes to the item deck you go to great pieces warehouse you roll You pass the skill check say you can get it again. Well whoop-de-doo, right? Yeah, cool thing is sure and you can do that and keep doing that but you've still taken the time to go and do that For sure, which is like, yeah, someone else is now doing that doing other things in a different way

Yeah, and so to me it was kind of like well when why someone? If someone wants to play like that, that's fine. Yeah. And like same thing with, I think it was like the prestige, right? So with NPCs worth prestige, and it was just like, cool. Well, because the tavern, you'll always have like four players there. And it's still like people in the tavern are friendly. So they're hostile worth points. And you go there and then you attack them,

you get the upper hand because you can land there, next turn, attack, so you don't get attacked, so you get the upper hand. And so initially it was like, well, people in the tavern aren't worth prestige. And then you're like, why? Like, we have enough NPC that they churn through, and if you wanted to counteract that,

you can go in there, pick them up, drop them off, whatever. And you can do that. But so if you want to do that, and gear yourself up and just camp in the tavern and just beat the shit out of whoever's there. Yeah, beat the shit out of every single one of them. And as I explained, barbarian mode is pretty much the only way to play the game. Exactly. It's the optimal method. Yeah.

And so it's like, well, if you want to do that, great. You need to rely on a lot of luck. Yeah, yeah. You need to rely on, A, you're hitting everyone that you're hitting you're hidden and be that the people who in the tavern are worth prestige Yeah, and that you know you defeat them before the end of the day because if not, they will go to the bottom of the deck Anyway, so it's like yeah why restrict someone and I think this is funny thing where like so like for attacking people in the tavern we were like Yeah, it seems like it's an easy way to farm victory points. And there's no real downside,

but I think a downside that we kind of didn't really think about until late in the game is just like, is it boring? You know what I mean? And I think it kind of is sometimes boring to just go to the tavern and wait, you're not really engaging with the game. And then another thing with attacking each other, being able to damage each other,

it doesn't really come up. Like you can do it. Why? But why would you? And most of the time it's pretty incidental. thing with attacking each other, being able to damage each other, it doesn't really come up. Like, you can do it. Why? But why would you? And most of the time it's pretty incidental if you decide to do it, which I think is the perfect place for a mechanic like that. You could use it if, circumstantially, you've ended up on the same spot, because you need

to be on the same location, which is also kind of a rarity, the same spot as another player, and they're going for a quest you're going for and they don't have much health left and they will defeat this person or pick up the item whatever in the next turn, but you could kill them. Then maybe it might be worthwhile pursuing it as a strategy. It requires basically you have to land on the same square. You have to, or land on the, for whatever reason, you need to have an attack. And you need to have it prepped for where a player who is also moving is going to be.

So you, not knowing where they're gonna be necessarily, you have to kind of pre-know where they're going to be. You have to feel confident to attack, obviously, which isn't always, even for the combat characters, it's not always a given that you're going to feel like, oh yeah, I definitely could, you know, I definitely could defeat them. Yeah, you do also, yeah, need to, I mean, like, you don't need to be able to defeat them. Maybe just a bit of damage is enough to kind of do what you want to do, like have the effect you want. Maybe you just want them to drop an item or something like that and then also Well, which then would maybe require you to be

Sharing a quest or it's gonna be some reason for you to do it in the first place It's such a hefty list of things that need to tick boxes Which then like it kind of on the flip side it why not give people this as a tool in their arsenal Yeah, like that's why it is in the game as a thing you can do because it's like well. Yeah Circumstantially you're probably not gonna do it Yeah, but if you want if you've come up with some strategy that involves doing it like we're not gonna say no I think a huge part of the game is Those little incidental things along the way where you're going, you're planning

on doing some other thing, maybe you're going to go pick up Knock Knock, but on the way you're like, oh, I've got a free interact, I don't need this item, but maybe I'll, yeah. Yeah, and it's the same thing, like if you've got like a, say, I think it's Leo Shadow has like the dash with a damage in the middle, and you're like, well, you know, I just happened to be passing by Adam say do I do? Literally have described happening to me by Joel's army Yeah, I'm going around I don't really want to hurt the NPC Yeah, you know and then it's just like it's an extra little bit of fuck you. It's a little bit of player interaction

Yeah, it's fun. Like I think for me. It's like in the rule book. It'll be like, you know, PvP It's like look. Yeah, it's possible Follow the same rules as you do if you're attacking somebody, as in like, you know, they consider them friendly until like, you know, when you attack them, you know, you deal your damage. If they're not defeated, they deal their damage. So they're holding weapons, or you better believe you. You could be in real trouble, yeah.

And kind of like, you know, just I guess at the start of the game, be like, yeah, cool. This is what we, you know, PvP is enabled. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's kind of the way I look at it, to be like, yeah, cool. This is what we, you know, PVP is enabled. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's kind of the way I look at it to be like, hey, is everyone happy to punch on? You're like, yeah, yeah. Yeah, all right, great. Cool. You know, and look at it. You're right, as Adam is saying. It is, it is hard to make it like, okay, cool, we are doing this.

Yeah. And like, you know, really going like a fine, like, yep, I am aiming for to attack somebody. Yeah. Because like a lot of the characters can just zip away. Yeah. I have to just don't think about it Like I I play knock knock heaps who has that free just one point of damage and I've don't think I've literally I Literally don't think I've ever

Passed by a player and been like how many hit points do you have really quickly is that one hit point? It could make you lose an item. Absolutely, and it's also funny to imagine, and again, there's a real freedom, I think, in this game, to play however you want. And I love that this is now, that this is part of it. That if you theoretically wanted to, you could be like, I'm Leo Shadow, and I'm gonna get all of the daggers in the game,

which I can discard for a damage, and then I'm just gonna seek out someone and kill them. You can do that, that's fine. That's the kind of freedom. In a really weird way I think the Jaren's Outpost board game has this open world life sim vibe to it and that you can just do what you like sort of if you want. It might not help you win the game but it's an option. And it is the kind of thing that yeah, initially we were like, uh

Didn't we also have like beating a player gave you prestige? Yeah, I think early on Like that as well like, you know, there's things you discussed really. Yeah, like, you know, it's like you get defeated What's the you know, is there a cool you lose your items or whatever you use rest your turns But you lose a prestige and you're like, yeah, I think that was when having the ability to hurt someone was a lot harder as well because and we've spoken about this yeah movement used to be like a lot simpler or they used to be like move forward that was it yeah like that was left right that was yeah so yeah a lot of most characters now have like a move and attack sort of ability yeah they'll have

something in there that they can use to do damage. So it's a lot easier to cause a player damage, but back when we were considering prestige. You would have to be like you'd like land on the location. Yeah, it was really hard to guarantee. Hope they're not gonna move on their turn and then on your next turn do an attack. I do it because again you try and think of like, because again, you mentioned stealing as an option before, because like, now it's like you can go from like one location and now they think there's like an NPC and stuff as well.

So it's like, cool, we've got some options there if you want to steal. But like, initially, like, yeah, if you landed on the same carry, like same space, and then you would roll. And then you're like, oh, cool, like, I think it was a skill check. Yeah, pass a skill check. Well, you can steal back You know you could steal from them. Yeah, and then the horrible thing happened. Yeah, which was like cool Okay, yeah, and he comes down to this is boring

Yeah, yeah exactly because you like you know you kind of want all right I've been stolen like you know stolen from okay move on yeah, but then you're up against a tag You know a player who's like no well I need that I know you're back steal a back from you. It's a good. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I want it I'm stealing it back. Yeah. Okay. Well, I want it. I'm and it was just it was not fun. Yeah It was very like okay that sucked. How do you know? How do you go about doing this in different? And then now I love the show I love going to that location and you like do that you steal from somebody else and they're like am I gonna move on? No, I'm just gonna keep robbing people and you're like, yeah good. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks Jackson

That rules for me. Do you remember when I forget what location it was and I was championing this for ages and we decided against it Yeah, one of the other it was another one of the halfling family location I have probably the quiet knife where it, deal a damage to somebody. Yes. Instead of stealing, I was like, oh go on there and deal a damage. And then we were like, well somebody could just farm someone else. Yeah, food.

Theoretically. And then I think it was also this thing of like, well, because there's not really much to be gained from killing somebody or just dealing damage to a PC, and then to go there and deal damage to an NPC, it's kind of boring, so we just decided against it. Yeah, because it was kind of like, all right, you deal damage to a player character,

like, what's the point? Deal damage to an NPC or a player character, and like, yeah, so it's like, cool, but then the idea being narrative would be like, oh, I'm going there and I'm hiring an assassin or whatever. Yeah, hiring an assassin to get a hit or whatever. And like, yeah, so do you do it,

is it a role with a skill check, is it just an interact, that kind of stuff, and you can sit there and be like, from any kind of defeat quest, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack. And there are players on the board that are just worth prestige as well. Or NPCs on the board.

So you kind of like, oh cool. You just do it without a risk really, yeah. And you're like, is that fun? Because you've got to do, it's like that weird thing of like, what's the meta? Like, you know, what's the quickest way of like, you know, the most better points versus like, you know, because there are people who want to like,

what's the optimal strategy? Yeah. And so I was like, oh yeah, cool. Well, if I just go to this one place and all I spend my turns doing is like, you know, in a day I can do four damage anywhere around the board. And that's cool. Cause some quests will is like, you know, in a day I can do four damage anywhere around the board. And that's cool because some quests will be like, you know, defeat X many, like, you know,

like a Fort Guard or this or that. And then I'm like, oh, I'll just wait there. When I'm not doing that, I'll just like, you know, chip away at anyone with a point. And you're like, well, I guess you could. You could, but like, yeah. You suck as a person. Yeah. Is that like a fun time for everybody?

Do we want that in there? But then we were like, okay, what else is that fun? Yeah, is that like a fun time for everybody? Do we want that in there? Yeah, yeah. But then you say we were like, okay, what else can it do? And so we decided to, I think it's another sort of transport, which is like, you know, go to the Jaren's Outpost. Jaren's Outpost, which is very fun. It's a cool little addition. I feel like there's been a few times where I've been,

it's been, especially when it's been right next to Jaren's Outpost for some funny reason. But there's been a few times now where I've been like Oh, actually, it's really useful Even though it is right next to John's outpost. It's really useful that it's there cuz I've maybe got a move and interact Yeah, and then I it only gives me one extra movement That's why I like about yeah the because, yeah, because we did the sewers, we've done the quiet knife, the getting around the board.

That was also another issue back in the day. It was kinda like, how do you move around everywhere? Especially when in the early days there was the exploration phase. Yes. Where it would be like, well, because it's so hard for anybody to get around the board. Is this something that's already been discussed?

Yeah, I think we talked, I forget what episode we talked about it in, but yeah, it was like that corner of the board everything's still flipped over because nobody could ever get there. So it was like well, what's kind of the point? Yeah. Yeah, so again it was like I like that we could yeah, it's even though if you're maybe not a zippy character you can still have like some transport around the battle. Playing face down is It's like have like some transport around the playing face down is Lasted so long that we had it still existed when we first did repopulation When we first did repopulation there was a huge debate we we were like We had no idea which one was better playing face down when you repopulated or playing face up when you repopulate I remember that debate. Yeah

crazy, yeah another way that we when you repopulate it or playing face up when you repopulate it. I remember that debate. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. Another way that we thought about screwing over each other that we then kind of, we again, it's funny a lot of things were taken out of the game and then once the game was more solidified we were like, we could kind of like safely reintroduce them was the idea of changing the way someone was facing. Yes. Or moving their movement cards around,

because you pre-program your movement in the game. And so to have that in any way interrupted, especially early on in the game, was like horrendously debilitating. And I think again, the Quiet Knives Jeweler, when it was like, oh, let's not do damage, I think my next suggestion was like, well, maybe you can go there

and maybe make someone rotate or whatever. And again, we were like, yeah, maybe not. But now we have a couple of like NPCs and stuff. Yeah, like an NPC, I think, either one or two, just like, okay, cool. The idea is, and this is, I think, a part of the stretch goal, the idea is that these characters, they are hostile.

And so to pick them up, because they'll have a discard ability, like a lot of like, sort of items do when you discard something, something will happen. And these NPCs are like, cool, they are hostile. So if you pick them up, you're going to take damage, which to me kind of negates the other effect. And one of them is like, cool, pick them up, take some damage, but then you can discard

them. And I think one of them is like, another player cannot move from the location they're in for a turn. And another one is like, you like, you push them back one. Yes, yeah. So it's like pushing someone back one, oh that's so frustrating and annoying. It's not completely ruining their day, maybe it is. But it costs you something.

Yes, yeah, absolutely. And often, I think some of them are like three damage and one of them is like quite a lot. And it'll cost you enough damage that you might lose a bag slot kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is kind of like the okay cool. Well, there's this trade-off Yeah, and then with the other thing I think that changes your movement or does stuff with another player's movement Which is the medicinal herbs, which I think have been unlocked Yes, those make you another player repeat their morning action now that is annoying But it also could be very beneficial which I kind of. It's actually given another player a fifth move.

It's just, is that, did you do something useful in the morning? I don't know if you know. Yeah, what I like about that is like, oh, you could do it for yourself. Like, there's again, a lot of like, players, you know, like say, move and interact. Like, they move forward, interact.

And if you wanna do that again, you're like, sweet. I take some medicinal herbs and I move forward, interact. Yeah, so I like that ability where you're like, oh, this will kind of screw over my opponents, but oh, help me. Yeah, and it's a very strategic one to be like, what has everyone else done in the morning? Where's, you know, oh, I know on say, Zamet's next move,

he needs to get away from the surgeon because he doesn't have much health left. Oh, what's that? You're attacking him again? You know, like, oh, it's actually me, you know, he's killed you. Like, that's, that's, that's fun. I like that, you know? But yeah, we tried to have this balance

between annoying and fun. And I remember a lot of discussion that was like, that was the thing we would say, it was almost like a catch cry. It was like, is this annoying or is this fun? Yeah, and it's still kind of like, you know, it's hard to kind of throw that needle as well because I'm like, yeah, because we tried a bunch of different like, you know, okay, well, this NPC, because, okay, we discard them, whatever, like, cool, you'll, you know, go left or go right, or you'll turn around

or something like that. And we kind of was like, I don't know if it's fun or not. Yeah. Like, and that's kind of where we sort of fell on for a lot of them and so kind of reduced It to only like a couple. Mm-hmm. Yeah, there's this kind of thing of like you know Cuz again it when you're pretty programming it can just really really yeah over someone's complete Cuz I've only played I think it's only been played against me sorry I'm gonna say he's only been played against me once. Yeah Yeah, I think it's only been played against me once. The medicinal herbs? Yeah, the medicinal herbs. I think it fucked me from memory.

Oh, it will. Oh, it will. Oh, yeah. It's fun. But yeah, some other characters we had, or some other abilities, which was like, yeah, you can rotate someone 90 degrees or make them face it. And again, but it's also this funny thing these days where a lot of the, like, oh, that's very annoying, came when you

had movements that didn't do anything or that, but we've really tried to balance the board out so that, you know, because they get in the game, you do get fucked over. You do the quest you were halfway through doing gets done in the second round and then you have two extra rounds where you pre-programmed your movement and you got to figure out something else. So there is still like, and that's why we basically were like, Oh, we can reintroduce some of this because it was like, well, now you play your first move, somebody fucks you over and rotates you on the board or makes you, you know, whatever you're like, well, I'll be able to figure something out. You know what I mean? Like that's the kind of how the game works

these days. I think what I like, because again, when it comes to like, you know, your movement stuff, I think it was like knock knock. Cause again, she was very slow and she didn't have like I think at one point She didn't have like a right turn Like she didn't have like she couldn't turn right or she couldn't go backwards one of the two Whatever it was and it was like really slow and annoying and you couldn't just do it's like turn around and do a circle Yeah, and so we're like one of her abilities and very early on was like just rotate 90 degrees Yeah, that was it and even then we were just like it was useful but kind of a bit boring. Yeah, and then it was the yes

Adam sorry I was doing this because I have no idea how to make this easy to if it needs to be yeah I got a pee Piss I hope this isn't Go piss. Go piss, girl. Okay, I hope this isn't ruining my job. That's fine, go piss, girl.

People piss all the time in the podcast these days. It's fine, man, we talk a lot. Whatever, we'll hold down the fall while you piss, relax. So yeah, so it was just like, you know, 90 degrees, and then we were like, okay, what if anyone could just move 90 degrees? Like, the whole idea of like resting and that kind of stuff, because it was either like you could rest

and it was like you could heal yourself at one point. Yeah. And was like oh you could reorientate and so that was two different actions And it was only 90 degrees. Yeah, and then it was just like why yeah, and it's funny I want being very in a kind of way where I can't really remember what my problem with was with it back in the day I think I was just like no that you pre-program your movement and you suffer for it or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was- They're like, Jackson, is that annoying or is this fun?

Is that fun, yeah, exactly. And so then it was like, okay, cool. Well, why don't we instead, we combine that. So it's like, you can rotate left to right, nine degrees and heel one. And then it got to the point of like, why don't we just face any direction and heel one? Yeah, you can just change your orientation and heal one.

Because I think that also relies on like, again, the... Because when you have stuff that let you screw over your other opponent, and the person who's being screwed over, you need something. Yes, yeah, yeah. You need some kind of recourse to be like... Either they've screwed me over, but they're suffering for it. I either picked up something that harms them, but then it harms me. Or it's like, well, I just got fucked over. Okay, well what can I do?

Yeah, absolutely. And I think the ability to kind of like, all right, I know what my next move is. I am losing this move, that's fine. But I can reorientate. Set myself up for the next round. Yeah, because I think back in the day before we had that ability as well,

especially when your cards were just like, move left or whatever, is that if somebody screwed you over turn one, you were like, literally the rest of my movement is worthless now. Yep, you're like sick, can't do shit. Can't do shit. Okay, I'm fucked over and it's not fun and I'm just frustrated or whatever. Yeah, which is why I think even when it's like, you know, you get beaten to the quest, it's like, cool, even if you lose that point, or, you know or if you want to reorientate yourself in any way, ultimately you're only missing a turn.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because like, cool, well I know the next card, which is great because I know me and you are very guilty of this, Jeff. Which is like, well I know I'm going to move forward. These two things are going to be interacts or like an attack, an attack or whatever. So I don't care what I'm playing, so who cares? Yeah, just put it down, doesn't matter. Put it down there, doesn't matter. And the next one there.

And then like, you know, ah, shit. Okay. The thing I want to do is now I can't do, or like, ah. What the hell were my movements gonna be? Ah. Oh, fuck. Okay, I'll figure something out, dude. And it's funny as well, this screwing over people thing. Also, and I think we've talked about this on another episode,

but that helped us with that last turn slump, where, in the last turn of kind of some board games, you're just like, well, what do I do? Like, I'm not going to win. So how am I going to make it fun for myself? And yeah, to having this idea of like, well, in that last turn, you know, if you're not going to win, wreck someone else's day. That's when you're picking up the rock of whoops. That's when you're stealing, you're picking up an NPC and discarding them so that your opponent doesn't get, you know, win by four

points instead of two. So I think that's when you kind of tend to go ham. And like, it's a funny thing where you can screw over your opponents, but most of the time it is incidental. You know, unless you're vindictive, you're... Which again, we've seen play and I love that. I think that was a good turning point as well when we were demoing. I mean we mentioned it before, but it was like, you know, seeing someone who was just like, oh cool, well it's the last turn and this person's attacking. I'm just going to, you know, again, I'm going to camp on the Great Pissers Warehouse where every roll of the dice I can like look through the item deck.

And they were like, yep, rock of whoops, rock of whoops, rock of whoops. And they were just like, you know, the other person just needed to attack once and actually succeed. And they were like, no, you don't, no, you don't. There's a lot of that, I know. Except from me, because I'm die-full and I would never try to hurt my friends. But I think the two of you really bully me in the last round.

I actually, I said it as a joke, but I kind of am also being serious, because I do notice that if I get to the last round and I've got a few free rounds or something like that, I'll be like, oh, I'll just sit here, whatever. I typically, because I'm such a beautiful person, I would never use that time. Even though, yeah, there is obviously, I'd absolutely could if I wanted to use that extra time. That's what that's what that times for baby How can I get how can I squeeze that one or two extra points? Yeah, how can I ruin someone else's day? Yeah, that's that's the two things if I can't squeeze one or two extra points I'm screwing I'm wrecking someone's day. How quickly can I get to yeah, Greg pisses warehouse? How quickly is that? Where's that rock of whoops?

What are they going for? Are they attacking or are they doing skills? Oh, I'm heading straight to the quiet knives jewelers and I'm taking that, you know But it is funny because I'm such a good person that I do literally never think of that. Yeah, that's crazy You should get such a good looking. It should be said. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah big dick. Yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was my next Fat hog Fat hog. Fat hog! I think as well, you know, because it is sort of integral of the DNA of the game, hopefully

when you're playing this game, you know what it's like going in. You sit down with your friends and you say, hey, this is a game about getting victory points. And making you cry. And making each other pissed off. You know how everybody says, monopoly wrecks friendships yeah this game does that by design. Monopoly doesn't wreck friendships because no one has a free 12 hours to play half a game of monopoly. That is true. And also like look Jared's Outpost it doesn't doesn't have to be that way.

Yeah yeah of course. You can like play like you know very like we can all be like Adam. Yeah. Yeah exactly a model citizen Yeah Like yeah, because again of Melbourne Not of Jared's outpost But yeah, because again as I used to saying it was like a lot of the screwing over is incidental Yes, yeah, because like you know you are getting your own head like all right. I go I go here I go here. I go here, and then I get one two cool I can do two quests like that sick. Yeah, and then you've done that one quest well fuck you

Yeah, at least I can do that and you've done the other one. Okay, fuck wasted day. What am I gonna do instead? Where am I going? Yeah, it's like round two and I have got nothing. Yeah, absolutely. It's great I love that going from like cool. I plan that day. I've got like this. I got everything sorted I'm gonna be like, you know big dick swinging swinging over here everyone's gonna think I'm so good at I'm ruining it, you're marring it, you've wrecked my life you know what you big bitch you've wrecked my life and then that's what I like about it as well because like you know you can be vindictive yeah but you can also just not be and also ruin someone's day exactly like that's kind of yeah it's extremely open-ended. You can truly play any way you like.

And it reminds me a little bit of that, like, you know, Ticket to Ride, if you ever thought like, you know, like, you're trying to figure out your, you know, which, which, which route are you going down? And then someone nonchalantly is like, no, I just go this here. And you're like, why'd you do that? You're like, because you're not. You bitch. Because you're not, you big bitch.

Is it because you hate me? Yeah. Is that what's happening? Why are you like, oh, I just, I don't know, I had some cards I wanna play. You don't even have a route? No! I just like put it in there. No! I don't know, I saw it. You know, you've ruined my life.

I like the colour blue. Yeah, that's fantastic. Okay, now my route, which was gonna take four trains, is gonna take 60. Shhh, super good for me! Yeah. And that's what I get. That's that kind of feeling of like, mmm. Because it's, you know, it seems like a negative feeling.

But actually, it's what makes board games fun. Yeah. And again, I've always loved this idea of like, Okay, You've screwed me. That's great. What have I got? What is my genius? What is my stupid brain plan for me? How can I get out of this one, idiot? Now I'll follow the cards to the next one. What have I got? What is my genius? What is my stupid brain plan for me?

How can I get out of this one, idiot? And now I'll follow the cards to the best of my ability. I will do what I can, and that's what I like. Absolutely, and like you said, if you end up playing it with your friends and you're like, I don't wanna do that, you're just at the beginning of the game. You say, hey, let's be nice.

What if we do a nice one? Or you say, hey, this is a game where I'm gonna go fuck-a-mo-jones mode and everyone's be nice. What if we do a nice one, you know? Or you say, hey, this is a game where I'm gonna go fuck-a-mo-jones mode and everyone's gonna suffer. Like photos, you do a nice one and you do a silly one. Yeah, exactly, you've got the option. Yeah, I do like, I think we've mentioned it on the stream as well, but like in some other episodes,

like yeah, there's like, again, we're talking about screwing over your friends. There's also, hey, let's have ways of countering this. Yeah, yeah. Because the one thing that like, you know, again, witnessing someone just completely ruin like one guy's day of like, rock a whoops, rock a whoops, rock a whoops. I was like, cool. But you can't counter that.

Yeah. In any way, shape or form. And it became a little bit like, yeah, okay, they're just taking the damage and nothing's happening with them. What can you do? Because again, it's that kind of thing where, and it's the way they like, you know, the one is always a fail. Yes.

Yeah. Because like, you know, you're going there, you're like, well, I attack. I don't need to roll, right? Because I just do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I win. And it's a bit boring. And so you kind of like, in a similar vein, I was like, well, you need something to be able to hang around.

Even if it's not a tangible thing, like 100% runaway something in which we're now unlocked. Yeah. One of the items, which is the mirror, which is like to reflect. Whatever happens to you, you can make it happen to another player. And it's worded so poorly. Yeah, exactly. It's worded so vaguely that you can be interpreted

however you want. And yeah, I initially was like, oh, I should clarify that. And then Jackson grabbed my little hands, I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Put the keyboard and mouse down, my beautiful friend. Hey, hey, let's not, let's, what is it? Let's not make perfection get in the way of us.

Yeah, exactly. It's already perfect. It's finished. Let the people decide what it means. It's got nothing to do with us. Exactly, you know what? Cause again, someone damaging you, that's getting affected.

Yeah. Getting a victory. That's getting affected. Exactly. It's up to the table, baby. I hate that. It's up to the table, baby. It's up to the table. I love it. Personally, Adam, I love it.

And I went, you know what, Jackson? You are correct. Yeah. He wasn't gonna win anyway. Don Tooten, dude. So yeah, so it's like, yeah, it's that lovely little balancing of like, sure, you can make as many different things

to screw over your friends. You have to cut a counter that yeah of course and that is either gonna be through what's what's the cost of fucking over my friends yeah and also hey as the friend getting fucked over what can I do what can I do to either a stop that or be recover from yes I'd like to think that the game is balanced very nicely in that aspect. Yes. Yes. Well again Thank you so much everybody who has already pledged There's still time. Oh, yeah, keep pledging do not stop. It's crazy. Please do Yeah, we can't believe how many people have already pledged but yeah, there's still a time of recording

I think two weeks to go. So Already pledged, but yeah, there's still a time of recording, I think two weeks to go, so Still a chance if you've if you if this this particular episode is one you over You can head to Kickstarter search for Jaren's outpost and pledge today And on that note, I'm a Jackson Bailey. I've been Joel Zammet I've been Adam Cannavale if you've already backed, but you haven't commented comment. Yeah, you got a comment dude. Oh also Are we doing a push to get likes on... Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah which every other place has. It's a fan. Okay. You can fan us on- I'm fanning this. You can fan us on- Fan us on Board Game Geek. Which just sounds terrible to say.

That's a baffling sentence. You know when you give someone the thumbs up and you say, yeah, I'm a fan. Exactly, yeah. Is this a love heart though? I'm a fan. Oh, it is a love heart? I'm a fan.

I'm a fan. I've not looked at the icon properly, I'm gonna be honest. My, you know how you have reading comprehension? Yeah. I have icon comprehension. Somebody's supposed to smile and you go what the hell they're saying to me? Yeah. Are they happy? Are they sad? I don't know. Could be anything. But yeah, if you had to board Game Geek, board Game Geek and you fan us, which looks like liking,

but isn't. It's a level of heart. Yeah, so I think it's um, I think we, yeah, I, I once again, I did not realize, I wasn't familiar 100% with Board Game Geek, anyway, we were talking to our, like the people who were helping us with Kickstarter, and they were like, I should do some social goals, basically. And so it's kind of like, we get people to be like, oh, if X has Y, we get Z.

And I'm like, okay, cool. I hate social media. I think a lot of social media now has gone down the toilet and I'm like, what do we do with social media? I don't know. And so, cause like in the past, people have been like, oh yeah, go to our Facebook page and give it a like. Once we get a thousand likes, whatever we'll,

cause again, getting a thousand likes on Facebook for something seems pretty easy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that was what I was going off. And so I was like, oh yeah, a thousand likes on board game, that should be easy, right? And then I looked like, yeah, yeah, had a look around, like, oh, not many,

oh, half that to 500, and so I sent that out. Then I got an email and being like, oh, it looks like, it's like, oh, a thousand's a bit too much, maybe aim for like a hundred, 150. Oh, I see you've already done, oh, well done, idiot. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm in pain. They called you an idiot? No, no, I'm calling me an idiot. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha Outpost fanning it. Yes, and if we hit 500 we will add a new location to the game and also of those people who are Fanning it one of you will

Be allowed the privilege randomly select randomly selected to play the Jaren's Outpost board game With us on tabletop simulator with us three boys in the fucking room right now Am I allowed to encourage something that's against us website? Not even worse than the law websites terms and conditions, maybe not maybe not okay be careful easy now easy We don't want to get shadow banned from the internet But yeah, once again, that's board game geek comm search for J Search for Jaren's Outpost. Fan us, which looks like liking, but is secretly fanning.

We're trying to hit 500, and also you'll go in the running to play the Jaren's Outpost board game with the three of us boys on board games. Tabletopsimulator.com. Tabletop Simulator. Fuck you both. And on that note, I'm a Jackson Bailey.

I've been out of this. This is the second time we've done this. I'm trying to wrap up. Yeah, well, you did a poor job. I did my pee. I don't need to leave I could stay for another hour. Goodbye Acas powers the world's best podcast. Here's a show that we recommend We've all got that one post. Listen, maybe it's iconic.

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