De-Influenced with Dani + Jordan - BONUS EPISODE: Hair Loss & Mental Health with Dr. Afiya

Episode Date: August 15, 2024

Hello De-Influencers!! Surprise!! We have a BONUS episode for you this week! In this episode we sit down with Clinical Psychologist, Dr. Afiya Mbilishaka. Dr. Afiya shares her mission to equip barbers and hairdressers with mental health skills to better serve their clients.  As you all know I have my own hair loss story and have experienced firsthand how your hair can negatively impact your mental health.  In this episode I go in-depth about my hair loss story with Dr. Afiya. Through this conversation we talk about the connection between hair and mental health, what her 8 hour certification course helps hairstylists and barbers learn and the importance of making sure those taking care of our hair are equipped with the tools to better help their clients who are struggling.   More information: PsychoHairapy Dr. Afiya socials We hope you enjoy this special episode as much as we did. We love you De-Influencers!! XOXO

Hello and welcome back to your favorite podcast. D-influents. Dr. Raffia, you did. Guys, this might be the first doctor we've had. True. Yeah, this is so amazing. We have a special guest today. We have Dr. Raffia and Billy Shaka.

Thank you. Dr. Afea is a clinical psychologist, hair expert, and founder of psychotherapy. Psychoherapy is a very unique training program that equips hair stylists and barbers with tools to provide mental health. support for their clients from behind the chair. We're so excited to have you. And this is your first time in Dallas. It is. Yeah. I like the weather. Do you? Oh. Is you're from Boston? Are you from Boston? I'm living in Boston and I don't like the weather there. Really? What is it like in this? I've never been to Boston. Have you? One time. One time? Yeah. I toured a what season. I think it was the fall because students were, I like walked around Harvard and walked around MIT. So cool. It's like, wow,

this is where the top people are. Smart people. Did you go to school in Boston? No. My husband's from Boston and that's why we're living there. I'm from New York and went to school in D.C. and in Philadelphia. What part of New York are you from? Long Island, the suburbs.

Okay. Do you think you'll ever end up in New York back in New York or no? I could. It's still, it's the big apple. Yeah. I bet you love visiting, but it's a lifestyle. It is. It's different.

When we visit my husband, I'm like, oh my gosh, do you think we could do this? I'm like, there's just no way. You would love Boston, big history city. I know. I've heard that I would. Lots of history. Yes. Loves history.

She loves it. Well, I love history, but I also have really short-term memory, so I forget everything. But when I learn it, it's like fascinating for me. So, but that's so cool. Okay, so first time in Dallas, you've been to Houston before. I have. Okay. What do you think about Dallas so far?

So far, so good. I need to try some text mex. But so far, so good. I've been just enjoying, figuring out new places, just walking around. Not too long. It does get hot, but it does. Not too long. Just for an hour or so.

And you've been working with Divi for how many months now? Because you're working with Divi for the whole year. Yeah. So I started in May, technically, in terms of May is Mental Health Awareness Month. Yeah. So that was our first connection and partnership. Okay. Well, I want to hear more about you.

As a licensed psychologist, how did you begin to see the connection between hair and mental health. I know something that you really focus on is equipping people behind the chair, which we talk about all the time. It's like your hair stylist typically knows more about you or your deepest, darkest secrets, like even your husband doesn't know. Very true. And I think a lot of times it's probably because they're kind of your peers and you don't

feel intimidated. So like you sit down and you're like, okay, an outside third party that I'm probably not going to see for another, you know, 10 weeks or so until I get my hair done it again. And you just spill everything, which I'm sure is a lot on both parties. So yeah, I want to learn how you kind of got into this and on your thoughts. Were you the first to use psycho hair? Yes, I trademarked it. I was going to ask if you trademarked it. That's so smart. Yes. I think as a talk therapist, you play with words a lot. And so really integrating mental health and hair together. So psychotherapy. Can you tell us, sorry if I cut your question off. I think it's the same. Can you tell us about how you came up with the term? Like, what was the story behind you inventing the term?

Hmm. I think it was in graduate school that I was playing around with language. Again, learning about talk therapy and how to create meaning with words and wanting therapy and hair to go together and just inserting hair right into therapy, literally is psychotherapy. Wow. So, yeah, tell us your story. Okay. My origin story for psychotherapy. So I've always loved doing hair.

I was my family's hairstylist. So at family cookouts, I literally would have a lawn chair set up and have this mini salon that my relatives could come get their hair done in a backyard. Wow. So my family trusted me with that process as a teenager. And then when I went to college at the University of Pennsylvania, I ended up doing the same thing in my dorm room. So this tiny room, I would have people come in, schedule appointments.

But I was not business-minded. I never charged anyone. I think I just liked the creative process of doing hair. And so I also was a psychology major. And I remember talking to my aunt on the phone one day and telling her a dilemma. I don't know if after I graduated, if I should go on to become a psychologist or if I should be a hairstylist. And she said, well, why can't you do both? Now, I don't think she was telling me to do both at the same exact time.

But that's the way I interpreted and thought, I can do hair and therapy together. So that's like the origin. I do identify my aunt in that conversation. She's now an ancestor, but sort of planting the seeds that you don't have to pick one. Yeah. And there's not really a lot of people, I feel like doing what you do, right? Not really. It's funny. I do think most hair care professionals have a therapeutic ear, but there's no training in cosmetology school or barbering school. So they're doing it, but just untrained. And my approach is to have that evidence-based approach to therapy that I was trained in in my doctoral studies.

So most of your work and what you're doing, are you mainly speaking to a hairstylist? Well, technically I'm speaking to everyone. Yeah, totally. Because like we're all influencers. We're all like, yeah. But everyone should have some understanding about the psychology of hair, right? This is something we interact with on a daily basis. It's so connected to our identities and the way we express ourselves.

And I do think hair is a language system. It can tell different things about your lifestyle, your marital status, your diet, exercise. You should see myself when I first wake up in the morning. Like, I have naturally really curly. hair, like kinky, kinky, and like, but it's just such a reflection of like the sleep that I had. Like, it's such like, and then I, and I don't really care. I roll out of bed. I get my kids up and my daughter every, every morning is like, mommy, your hair. Like, it does tell a lot about you. Mom here. That's mom here. That's so interesting. And so is there, like, you said that there's

kind of like clinical research that supports some of your claims. Like, can you tell me more about that. Yes. Well, I actually had to do some of the research myself because there wasn't a big literature about mental health and hair. And so I actually developed a research lab at my university where we would go to hair salons and barbershops and ask people questions about mental health and their health care practices in general, their identity. And so that is actually a major source for the information on the science of hair and mental health. But the existing literature really focused on hair loss in terms of the depression. the anxiety, the social anxiety, the sense of isolation that comes with hair loss,

that people are literally having their identities altered by the shifting of their appearance and hair loss. And so that's really where most of the science was existing, the changes, the emotional changes that people go through for hair loss. Did you feel like women that were going through hair loss? Like, do you know a lot about like the Whig community too? So it's interesting. I'm not fully plugged into the wig community.

But for black communities, there's a big wig culture. And so I know that a bit more, whether it's lace fronts or other types of wigs, the processes of designing a wig that matches the head and the shape of your hair line and things like that. To be honest, that's where I found a lot of like education, like on YouTube of like how to cut the lace or how to wash because I guess I can kind of go into my personal hair loss story. But I started losing my hair in college. mainly from stress, I was picking my hair. And so I was double majoring. I had a minor.

I was also starting my YouTube channel. I was 19. Oh, wow, you did it all. Well, you know, that's kind of how I like to roll. I like to just really overwhelm myself with so many things. Otherwise, I get bored. And so, but yeah, so I started experiencing really bad stress. Okay, so I looked down, see all this hair.

And then I learned about tape and hair extensions. So I thought, okay, I'm going to cover up or just like hide all this. with hair extensions, will that cause traction alopecia? But once you start getting hair extensions, it's kind of like a drug, like you can't get off of it because then you get to, when you take them out and you go to the hair salon, I cannot tell you, every time I went to the hair salon, I'd be like, can you please turn me around? Like, I don't want to see it myself because I don't want to see what my actual hair looked like because I just wanted to see the hair extensions. And but finally got to the point where they couldn't even really put the hair extensions in. And the tape is like,

you know, flying everywhere. It's just not. It doesn't, look cute. And so I finally get my hair extensions out. I see myself and I was so embarrassed. I like literally didn't want to leave my house. I was just newly married to Jordan. And I woke up one morning and, you know, I think when you're really insecure about something like that, there's two things that are going through my head. What did I do to myself? This is my fault. I screwed it up. I don't want to talk to anyone about it because I feel like if I talk about it, I'll shed more light on it therefore it will bring more attention. So let me just try to like hide this and hide myself and not tell anyone. Or and then another thing was like just feeling so ashamed and embarrassed around

my husband. Like I don't know why, but like around Jordan, I was like poor guy. Like he thought he was marrying this girl with. And he never, he never did anything to make me feel this way. It's like a personal insecurity. But I'm like, you know, he's married, he thought he was marrying this girl with all this hair and then he has to wake up next to me every day. And so I just felt so embarrassed. And, but then I remember one day, I was like, I got to the point where I have to tell him. So I woke up, I go, babe, I hate my, I hate looking in the mirror. I don't want to leave the house. And Jordan literally goes, well, the Kardashians wear wigs. Why don't you wear a wig? And I was like, classic like man trying to fix it. No, but like, and he never, ever, ever to this day has ever said

anything about my hair. No, I didn't even, yeah, I didn't even like at the time, no, it was such a because I was hiding it, like, put it in a bun and, like, it's like back. Sounds like you had a lot of shame. Yeah, a lot of shame. And I really felt like, I mean, I, I still did this damn, like, I did this. You know, I, this could have not happened yet I did this. And now I'm, like, stuck with this. So, um, anyway, Jordan put me in the car and we drove to the closest wig shop. It was like literally like looked at our iPhone. It was like, wig shop. And it was like one of those stores with like all of the $10 wigs that are like neon blue hot cake. I was about to say, I was imagining colors. Yeah. And so we get in there and I'm like, I get in the car,

like, I'm always going to be bald. You know, I had bald spots from all the traction, elopecia and everything. And, um, and here's another thing. I didn't know how much wigs were, like the good ones. I mean, I'm telling you that we've, we finally found a wig shop in Dallas. The wigs ranged from like 4K to 10K. Yeah. like $10,000 wigs. Wow. I start trying them on. I'm like, oh my gosh, maybe this could work for me.

And then they're like, yeah, this one's $10,000. I'm like, okay, this is not going to work for me. You have expensive taste. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, Dallas doesn't really have a lot of wig shops. There's two that I found online. And so I think there's really only like one good one, right?

There's, well, no, there's two that are like that pull up like on, that I think people that are going through chemo or like to find them really. real hair because there's a lot of like the synthetic hair. But anyway, so I started following some YouTubers in L.A. that wore wigs. One of them was Jeffrey Starr. He's like really like he's just a character. And he always blogs going and getting his wigs. And so we were flying out there for a wedding, my best friend's wedding. And well, Jordan was like, we'll extend the trip and we'll go to this place on, was it Las Jienega? It was called the wig shop. And that's where I got my first wig. Her name was Kim.

I named her Kim. And she had, it was like long blonde hair that kind of mimicked my hair extensions. And do you know that I wore that wig for probably six weeks and did not tell a soul? Like the only person I told was Jordan because it kind of looked like my hair extensions. And that was like, I don't know. I look back and I'm like, did people know? And they just didn't say anything. But I think a lot of people really didn't because they looked so real these days.

And so I was just kind of learning like, how do I have? feel about this? Like, is this normal? Like, like, like, are people going to judge me? Is this weird? And then finally, like, I knew I always wanted to talk about it, but I was like, I want to go through it by myself first before I open this up to the public because, like, what if I do get like people like, that looks horrible or, you know, it doesn't look. And then I, I knew that that would have like slowed down my progress in like feeling better about myself. So finally got to that point, shared with my audience of my, my wig. journey and it was like crazy it was like this hidden epidemic of women that were going through the same thing that like all as we get older whether it was postpartum hair loss or stress or people

that were going through chemo i mean all all types of stories are people that just had really fine hair that didn't feel feminine um i connected with so many of those people and then my whole mission with the wigs i was like why does this why does it have to be a stigma like why can't we just wear wigs and like change up our hair and how fun Like, why does it have to be associated with shame or hair loss even? And so my whole thing for that year, I was like, I want to make wigs fun. So it was actually cool because, like, I got to introduce wigs to my community that weren't, they weren't very, like, well-versed with them.

And it kind of became, like, more of an accessory. It's still emotional for a lot of people. But I feel like if we take away that stigma, it would make it more fun. And so then I had my audience buying, you know, he had blondes buying short brown bobs and, like, you know, going to date night and changing up their hair. night for their husband. Jordan, we always like used to joke because I had this one wig named Heidi and he loves Heidi and Heidi had bangs. And so he would be like, who's coming out tonight? Is it Kim, Heidi, Danny? You know? I really tried to get her back. She won't come back.

He still wants me to wear them. She's downstairs in the closet. Oh, he knows where she is. We have Heidi. We keep hiding for social locations. I was getting. Sorry, TMI. No, but, but it was really fun. And so just through that year, I decided, okay, I'm going to talk about this, try to get to the root of what is happening, like the scientific reason why this is happening. Take care of my mental health. Take care of stress. Of course, this was all like right before, was it right before COVID. So that kind of like set us back a little bit.

That was a tough time, especially for hair loss too. But yeah, it was just crazy how much like your mental health and your emotional stability is tied to your hair. It was like to the point where I didn't want to like, I don't want my husband to look at me. It's, it is. So I think what you're doing is really special because especially going to a lot of people in Dallas that weren't like hairstylists in Dallas that weren't so well versed with with wigs. They were always there for me like mentally like to support me. Be like, you know what? We'll figure it out. Bring your wig in. Let's watch a YouTube video and like let's figure out how to cut the lace or whatever. And just having that community of women that like are just like I don't know how, but we'll take care of you. It was really special. Wow. Thank you for sharing this story. I'm just realizing how much emotions or in there. I'm not trying to psychoanalyze you anything, but I know that there are layers. No, do psychoanalyze me. Let's do it. Let's see it. Put it in practice. Can you pull me apart and then put me back together? Seriously, I want to hear what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I specialize as a clinical psychologist in something called narrative therapy, that the human mind is storied and basically how we make sense of ourselves. is through these stories, answering the question of who am I? And I saw a segment of your identity in that story just in terms of how you were processing the stress of hair loss and even the grief, but sort of this hidden grief. Like it's almost like you weren't allowed to publicly grieve

something that was so personal and intimate for you. And the level of research that you had to engage into problem solve. invite someone into the space to join you and figuring out these things. It was really moving. I just want to like take a pause and recognize how beautiful the story was, but also how courageous and vulnerable. Oh, I think the craziest part of the story was as we were navigating hair loss and we've realized this a lot with Divi. You know, there's so many places that you go to to say, hey, can you help me? Like you, the typical path is you go to your hair stylist first, and then they might send you to a dermatologist who sends you to a doctor, who sends you to a

hair loss clinic or something like that. But there's so many specialists, but a big thing that we have advocated for with Divi from our own personal experience is that a lot of the other companies out there helping with hair loss or hair in general will focus on, you know, having dermatologists educate about their products, but we've been very big on making sure that hairstylists know about our problems and solutions, which is kind of what I think you're focused on, too, is, you know, educating hairstylist out there, right? Because that is the first point of contact that someone going through hair loss for men and women will go to is their hairstylist, right? Yeah. No, 100%. Wouldn't you agree? Absolutely. There is an African proverb that says,

when your sister is your hairdresser, you need no mirror. Again, when your sister is your hairdresser, you need no mirror. And it really speaks to the trust that we have with hair care professionals. I don't even need to look in the mirror. I know that you're going to look out for me, assess me, make me look beautiful. And so that trust that exists is very important. That's why I like to lean into that existing positive relationship. I did notice in your story that did you not go to your stylist? What happened there? Did I'm going to be. be honest with you. I was so ashamed. So first, the person I was seeing that did my hair extensions, this is so like me that I did this, I felt so bad for her because I felt like she ruined my hair.

Oh, so she was part of the problem. Yeah, I mean, and I don't think she meant to, of course, But like I knew that she wasn't going to be equipped to probably help me with the solution. And so I felt like prolonging that relationship was we weren't going to probably go anywhere. And I didn't want to go to her and make her feel bad. So I just never went back. And I just cut it off. And I was like, I need to go to someone else. And so then I found a girl in Dallas, Bianca, she's still like one of my good friends.

And she helps a lot in Dallas with a divvy. And I found her through a friend of a friend. I DM'd her. And I was so embarrassed to go into the salon because I didn't, I had a wig at the time, but I wanted the wig like cut. Because, you know, when you buy a wig, they don't look like, they're very, like, basic. It looks like Barbie hair.

And you have to cut for the style. And, but I didn't want to go into the salon with my wig. So I was like, can you come here and do it? And she was like, no, we have to do it at the salon. And so I brought one of my. other girlfriends to come sit with me. And, but then it's crazy because I brought her the wig and she would put it up. But anytime I would put it on and take it off, I'd go to the bathroom.

Like I didn't want to like put it on or take it off in front of people. So then I would, she'd be like, okay, I cut it because she put it on the headstand, you know. And I'd go to the bathroom, try it on and be like, okay, I think it still needs to be cut. Like it was so embarrassed. And I think it just, I didn't know a lot of people in my community or in my circles, like wearing wigs. And so, yeah. I was scared, like of the judgment or what would people say. And because at the time I wasn't wanting

to tell my audience or like be public about it, I was trying to be secretive. So I even still have the DMs to my hairstylist now. I've been going to him for, I mean, probably four or five years. I still have the messages where I was like, hi, I just want to make sure like you're the right partner or bright person for me. Like my story is really emotional. I'm really embarrassed to go into the salon. Like, I'm just trying to be up front with you. But I want to start adding highlights to my hair. And I'm really scared because I haven't highlighted my hair in over like two years to grow it back. But I really want you to tell me if it's a good idea or not and not just like, dye my hair to get the paycheck. Like, like, let me know. And I was like, I promise I'll come back

to you and I'll be a little customer. But just like, like, I kind of shared like more up front. And like, I was like honest with him before I even went, you know, because I was like, sometimes I feel like I can't say things like in person because I'm embarrassed or whatever. he was like absolutely he's like what i'll take care of you if if it's not a good idea to get highlights like i'll be i'll be honest you know i just felt like that trust like he was taking care of me and we did go in and he was like yeah i'll give you a little bit but not too much because your hair's still like growing and um so so yeah i didn't it wasn't because there probably wasn't a community it was just more like i was scared to tap into it yeah you're really highlighting

fear um fear definitely signals that you weren't feeling safe And it sounds like you had to construct or co-construct a safety plan. Really thinking about who could be trusted in this process and how that trust would be built and affirmed. Yeah, it sounds like it was super scary. But also that there was sort of this public presenting version of yourself and like a private one. I'm just picturing you running off to the bathroom to check and sort of just sort of. this misalignment, the way that you, there's two versions of myself. Seriously, sometimes.

And one's in the closet downstairs. Yeah, Heidi. Now there's seven versions of myself if you really want to know. But no, I do feel like, and that probably more so goes into like, I don't know, like the psychology of living your life online for 12 years. I'm like, they should run some studies on me because I think I'm a little messed up. How is that? How how how, give us a little spotlight.

I don't know where I'm saying us. I'm imagining people listening, but give us a spotlight in terms of what it's like to navigate like the public versus private or personal, even when it comes to beauty and hair and all of that. You know, I've been doing this for 12 years and I will say I, I've learned a lot. And so I handle situations and challenges differently than I did when I was 19, 20, 21 going through these things. But it's just like you kind of have to grow up and learn the hard lessons. But yeah, there's a lot of insecurities that I've had, whether it is, oh, am I a good enough mom?

Like, am I spending enough time with my kids? Or, you know, I don't like the dark circles underneath my eyes. Should I show up online or should I, like, put a filter on or go put my makeup on? or my hair loss, like people always judging, like, is her hair healthy? Is it not? And, um, yeah, I think my biggest thing that I've always like fallen to is just like avoid it. Like, just don't, don't even go there, you know? But what I've learned is when I do go there, that's whenever we're able to make the biggest impact. And so that's what actually I feel like gives me energy to keep posting because I'm like, oh, it actually made a difference. Like, for example, now, ever since I talked about my hair,

loss journey. I have people come up to me and like, oh my gosh, you encouraged me to get my first wig. And now I feel so much better about myself. Or it's so comforting, you know, like other women are going through hair loss or have thinning hair or like it just kind of like gives them this like sense of freedom. Like it's going to be okay because I'm not the only one. And so then I'm like, wait, maybe I should do more of that. And so it's actually encouraging. It's almost like a positive reinforcement that I'm like, oh, I should be real. Like I shouldn't put a filter on. Like I should just be myself. And and sometimes it's hard because like people will point out the like your biggest insecurities, you know? And you're like, you're like, you're already thinking to yourself, but then somebody else says it. And you're like, oh, out. Like that hurts because I already felt like I was a bad mom this week. I already felt like I was like working too much and I should have been more present with my kids. And then, you know, Susie from Oklahoma said. I'm like, oh my gosh, Susie. You even know like how it, it like it hurts so much. Um, so. So. And so. And so. So. And. So. So. So. So. So. So. Like, how it like, it like, it hurts so much. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. Um. that's always been challenging. But what I've learned and what I have to do is I have to have this like small group of people in my community that I trust. And so I have to have like my six or seven girlfriends that I'm like, guys, do you feel like I'm spending enough time with Stella? Okay. And Stratton, like, let's talk about what did you do this week? And they'll be honest with me. And I trust them because I know that we have similar values. We're like, I know that they have my best interests at heart. They know me. They know my husband. They know my family. So I just have to learn to listen to the.

those people in like listen to my community that I know cares about me instead of people that probably don't really know me very well, you know. So there's a lot of things that I've learned, you know, the hard way. That's, those are really important lessons. What I'm hearing is that you don't heal in isolation, that community has been a big part of even processing this influencer life and even having trusted community. That trust thing is coming up a lot. Yeah. But that safety and trust factor being so important. I actually did a research study on hair influencers. And so went to their websites and Instagrams and YouTube.

And they would write their bio, right, the About Me section. And I analyzed how they constructed this about me, but a lot of it was about we. And so that's actually the name of the article that I published from About Me to About We. How do you include people in your hair? journey. And it sounds like you were doing that. A lot of the influencers that I studied, they were using, there's this famous group therapist named Yalom. They were actually using his therapeutic factors in terms of imitative behavior, like modeling, how to resolve something. They were doing catharsis telling their story and getting it out and sharing emotion. They were

doing sort of this altruism and trying to help people. So these factors that in a traditional group therapy session, we're actually being led and facilitated by these influencers. And to some degree, being an influencer is like leading an asynchronous group therapy in terms of putting yourself out there, sharing your feelings, sharing your story, and having people respond to it and connecting so that they don't feel alone. And so it really pulls out these universal factors and themes of being vulnerable. And so as you model that behavior, it sounds like the people that follow you also engage, also there are haters, but in terms of that really establishing community, there is a very famous psychiatrist named Franz Fanon. And he said they were constantly asking

us ourselves certain questions. Who am I? Am I who I say I am, am I all I ought to be? I'll say that again. So Dr. Franz Fanonan, who am I, am I who I say I am, am I all I ought to be? And I kind of heard you navigating this in the public eye in terms of figuring out what type of mom you are. Are you the mom that you want to be? And even some reality testing from your trusted circle like, am I doing this right? And they're like, you got it. Or I don't know if they say, spend a little bit more time. But that feedback loop is so important.

So that's like the group therapy element. Yeah. Do you feel like, so I heard you talk about vulnerability. This is like more of a technical question. But when you go to your hairstylist, would you advise hairstylists to, because it is kind of like they're supposed to be professional, right? Like they should be professional. I've had people that come in and do my hair and makeup and they start talking bad about other clients. And the first thing I think I'm like, if you're talking about, you know, Susie in Oklahoma, what are you saying about me?

And like, it always kind of scares me. So there's this like level of professionalism that they should have. But at the same time, it's like we're opening up and sharing everything with them. And so it's like, what are they supposed to do with the information? So I'm just kind of curious, like what you advise that partnership look like. Yes. Okay. I would recommend they get certified in psychotherapy.

But that process includes a bunch of different modules. So even when I certify someone, first I go through the history of our hair. I like to go through thousands of years of hair history to give sort of context to what their role and responsibility is. Oftentimes, in a lot of traditional societies, thousands of years ago, you actually had to be initiated into the status of a hairstylist because it was such a trusted profession because you'd spend hours and hours with them, you know, share these stories that they had to be honorable. So I really like to give history and to understand gender dynamics and cultural dynamics that factor into the hair care process. Next, I go through the signs and symptoms of mental illness.

And so really thinking about how depression can show up in the chair, anxiety shows up in the chair, or even psychosis or alcoholism, whatever a presenting concern could be so that it can be identified. And then finally, the third module, I get into micro counseling skills. So micro counseling skills include active listening. I think the number one thing that some stylists struggle with is being a really great listener. I know for me that was the hardest skill I had to learn as a therapist because my mind was. would go into all these other people. They're going to like, just leave him. Like he's being horrible.

Just break up with your boyfriend. Exactly. And so there is this skill set, very nuanced in terms of not just automatically giving advice, but to really listen. Because when we're listened to and really feel understood, that's therapeutic. And so really getting into active listening skills. Also, how to assess for harm, but also how to share information. Sometimes people think.

think in order to give information, you have to talk about yourself, but that's not necessarily requirement. You can also give resources and books or a podcast recommendation too. And then also how to refer to resources to know local therapists, to know what sort of fits outside of their lane in terms of like, ooh, that's getting a little bit too deep. And so a lot of the psychoherapists that I've worked with, it's actually quite therapeutic for them because they realize they might need to see a therapist because they're maybe sharing too much with their clients about what's going on in their lives. So it's this sort of reflective space of the right amount of emotional labor, right? I think stylists take on a lot of emotional work,

hearing people's stories and navigating their own reactions to things. And that's a skill set to build in terms of how to show emotionally for people and not just dump. It's almost like not fair because they're like being dumped with all this really heavy information. And they're like, I wasn't taught this. Never. I was taught how to blow dry and cut in color. What are the boundaries that you advise in your program of like this is where a psychoherapist starts and where it ends and should be, hey, let me recommend you to this person outside of the chair. Beautiful.

Yeah, that was good. Good question. Good question. You're a good listener. Yeah. Well, it's kind of like getting certified in CPR versus being a cardiologist, right? Someone who's certified in CPR. Are you certified in CPR?

Did you have to do it? Oh, I am. It's been a while. Yeah. I think you're supposed to do it every three years. Yeah. It's probably about time. We did it when we had our first.

Yeah. Airways, breathing, circulation. Yeah. So you learn. Staying alive. You stay alive. Oh, isn't it? Yeah.

Staying alive. Yeah. So that's kind of like what I want to do with stylist. So to be able to recognize that someone's in distress and to be able to support them through a crisis or what's going on. enough for that ambulance to come or for a doctor to see them. So to be able to do that sort of maintenance work versus I'm not saying that they have to have a couch and people laid out and talk about when they were four years old and their parents divorce or something like that.

But to have the skill set to be able to sort of manage the immediate concern until further help can be gotten. Does that make sense? It makes subtle sense. I think that like the more that a stylist would be trained on this practice, just on the business side, I feel like the more, it's kind of like they're focused on like retention and loyalty of their people too, because then it's like, hey, I can't just go to a new stylist. Like, you're kind of like my therapist. It's like, you know too much about me. I can't

leave. You'll blackmail me. Yeah. No, I was thinking that too just from like a business sense of like having a competitive advantage too because there's so many hair size out there. And at a certain point, Yes, you have some really amazing people that are like their artists at their job. But at the end of day, there's a lot of people that are just as good as the next. But if you find someone that isn't just a hairstylist and can color your hair, but they also are a really great influence in your life and like changing your life for good. But that's an amazing service. Yes.

I do have another question. Do you train male hairstylists who cut men's hair differently than you would train female hairstylist that cut females hair. Oh, that's a good question. And here's, like, here's where I'm getting at. And I have someone who cuts my hair. I'm very loyal to him. And I appreciate our conversation. Sometimes, wait, he might listen to this just. No. I appreciate our conversation. But sometimes I just want, it's like an Uber ride. It's like, I don't want to talk. Like I, I'm away from my kids. I've got this 15 minute ride and I'm just going to sit here with my own thoughts and think. And I'm curious if you find differences of dynamics, but you're,

a male psychotherapist cutting a male's hair versus female cutting a female's hair. Great question. There are a lot, not as many male psychotherapists. And so it's interesting because I don't want to force some of my perspectives on them because I'm mindful that a barbershop oftentimes is a man's country club. Like that's not where I can necessarily enter and tell you how to have conversations about feelings in there. And so there are very nuanced things in terms of paying attention to body language. That's a big piece of the work. So I was saying active listening, but about 70% of our communication is through body language. And so the stretch you just did to pay attention like, okay, let's start wrapping this up, but to even pay attention to things that

are unsaid. And I think that that comes out into play because women are socialized to talk about feelings and do these different things. Women end up doing something called rumination, like talking about something over and over and obsessively, where men tend to externalize that they'll tend to like work out really hard or might even drink or use drugs as a way to get the feeling out versus having to verbalize it. But the thing is what we don't talk out, we act out. And so that's a big piece of like the gender dynamics for men supporting men that if they're not verbalizing, it shows up in other ways, but doing healthy ways of expressing the anger, expressing frustration or shame or different feelings because everybody has feelings. Again, women tend to verbalize the feelings.

more. And so for the male psychotherapist, we get into body language a bit more. Yeah, I would say, like, I have experienced more males going through issues and emotional. It's very subtle with their hair loss. Yeah. Oh, oh, I thought you meant more in hairstylist. No, no, no, no. I don't think it comes out with hairstylist, but I think it probably could or should, you know, but I've seen, like, I've found that most males who are struggling with hair loss hide that insecurity and you, you hear about it in very small snippets, like, oh, you know, it's, it's typically like, hey, like, I don't really want to take my hat off or, hey, you know, we're going to this restaurant. Can I wear a hat? Right. And so it's, it's very, it's very subtle. And so I think that there's a big need for male

psychoherapists out there to help men navigate it because it's just so not talked about, right? And another factor that might play into that, too, is if you think about on average, the time that a female spends with their hairstylist just because you have maybe longer hair or you're getting highlights and not that men don't have long hair and get highlights but typically I feel like women are with their hair cellist like I could be there for four or five hours it's like a day event so it's like we are going to have to get to each other because and then you're you get your hair done and it's like a 15 minute haircut you know it's more frequent though I actually argue that men actually navigate hair and hair care I think more than women in a lot of cases because

my husband goes to the barbershop way more than I go to a hair salon, especially for facial hair. That's a whole other topic. Okay, I don't want to call my husband out, but he's having some patches in his beard. And so he's kind of self-conscious. Like, I'd rather just shave it off when you really wants a beard. You're divvy. Yeah. No, you're not supposed to do divvy on your face, babe. But people do. Yeah, but you shouldn't. People do. Just put a little serum on his beard. No, we tell people not to. You have to know the rules. Because your skin is too sensitive on your face. But, Thanks, baby. It's sweet. Queen, queen. This guy can't grow a beard and I, it's fine. I love him.

But it's a big part of like negotiating masculinity and things like that, like facial hair and negotiating. And even thinking about the politics of appearance, like how beards are negotiated versus clean shaven. And I know that's even coming up with like the election who has a beard versus who does it. Oh, I never thought about that. But that is true.

Yeah, about like if you review maybe the past 60 years of. United States presidents, none of them have a beard. Like, it's a thing. Wow. Wait, wait. Why? Because was beard, so this is what I, when I think of a beard, I'm like, manly cowboy riding horses. Because I live in Texas.

That's just like what you think of. But like, why would they not, I haven't thought about that. Something about authority or seriousness or grooming. Grooming. Yeah. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Just even, you know, that it's very historically specific because when we think about Abraham Lincoln or something.

Lincoln, it's like, that's all we remember. Yeah, just his beard and his hat, right? What, you know, as you kind of pioneer this space, what is your dream for the future of this, you know, I want to say category, but that's not, what did you call certificate, you know, certification? What's your, what's your dream for the future of hairstylist and psychotherapy? I hope that all cosmetologists and hairstylists and barbers get this emotional intelligence training. part of the work. And so I'm sort of filling in a gap or a hole from the curriculum, but I'm hoping that this becomes a common experience. And not that people are forced to talk to their hairstylists or barber every haircut they have or hairstyling, but that you can have a choice, right? In terms of

just like an Uber, you can have a silent Uber ride. You can have a silent haircut just to decompress, but also if someone needs support that people have the skills, just like everyone getting CPR certified. I'm hoping that that happens with cycle hair. Are you, are you going directly to the cosmetology schools to try and get them adopted? Because that's probably a much quicker way than trying to get all the individuals after they already have their training. But although I'm assuming that all of our hairstylists at Divi are being trained on this by you. They should be. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, there's a Divi employee in the room. They said yes. Because that's, I mean, we, I don't know how many we have, but hundreds, you know, that should be. And I think DIV's trying to do things so differently of

being very conscious of the emotional journey that most of the people who buy DIVI are on. So I think it's a wonderful thing for you to train all of our scalp specialists. But are you approaching the cosmetology schools? I need to. This is great business. Yeah, yeah. It's probably how you would do it quickest. Yeah, probably. Yeah. I think I've just been leaning into the existing hair care professionals because they're noticing a skill set that they can develop further. And like you've been saying, this creates more retention of clients that people want to come back and share part two of the story, whether it's a date or an interview. And so to really think about that skill set or support someone through this lost journey or negotiating shame or fear on the things that you shared in your story, I definitely

need to have a hair thinning and lost specialty training because that's even a different emotional experience than general hair care. Right. But it would still fall into the psychoherepity certification class. When people are certified, do they, is there a way that they can let the world know that they are certified? Yes. They can say it. So it's funny on different people's websites or Instagram profiles, they'll actually put psychoherapist or psychotherapy certified. That's legit. Yeah. I would be like, oh, I need to go to this person. Like, I don't even know what this word means, but it sounds legit. Yeah. And definitely working. on directories and referrals in that way for each city.

Yeah. I'm trying to think if I have any Dallas certified. Yeah, I was going to say, do you have a directory currently? And where is it found? I'm working on digitizing it. It's just like in an Excel file anytime someone gets certified. But to make it public facing is, you can put it on the website. So we have, so, you know, I'm going to self-promote for a second.

But we have on Divi's website, we have a place where you can find a scalp specialist. technically speaking, if you are going to train all of our scout specialists in psychohyrapy, we will have the most robust directory of psychohrapists in the country. Wow. I'm just kind of like, mm-hmm. Like, is your hairstallist? Divvyofficial.com. Yeah.

But you could even do that for your own site. Yeah. And then what's so nice is like if you're traveling to a new city or you move to a new city, then you just go on there and you can find a, A hairstylist. That you can trust. That you can trust. I love it.

This is so fun. We're just dreaming big. How many do you think, how many psychoherapists do you think are in the country right now? Minus Divi. Well, they're even international. I think there are almost 300 total. So it's at the, it's at the inception of this certification. It is.

Very cool. We're very impressed. And I love what you're doing. Seriously. Thank you. How can, how can people feel? find you if they want to learn more about what you do or if we have a hairstylist that's interested where should they reach out okay they can go to psychoherapy.org i'm assuming that would be spelled

or at psychoherapy on instagram or if they want to follow me it's dr afea on instagram d r underscore a f iya okay and we'll put that in the show notes for you guys too just in case but thank you so much for taking your time to to be on our podcast we learned a lot and i love how you're connecting these two worlds. I feel like it's so necessary and it's so genius. Like, it's very creative of how you took your two interests and merged them together. It's very inspiring. And trademarked it. And trademarked it. Smart grow out. Thank you. This was so affirming. I appreciate the two of you.

Good. All right. All right. Make sure you check out Dr. Afia if you would like to learn more. We love you guys. And we'll talk to you later. Bye.