De-Influenced with Dani + Jordan - De-Influencing Dating, Demons and Social Media Pastors with Pastor Jonathan Pokluda

Episode Date: April 3, 2025

De-Influencers, It's Jordan here.. I'm highjacking the podcast today with the help of my good friend Pastor Jonathan Pokluda (otherwise known as JP).  Listen, this episode is like our Jordan's Conspiracy Hour segment on steroids. We're talking all things dating, demons and really taking a look at social media pastors with JP who is one himself! Plus, JP is sharing his story of going from "Sex, Drugs and HipHop" phase as he called it to finding Jesus and becoming a Pastor.  We hope you enjoy it as much as we did recording it! If you want to follow JP on socials or checkout some of his books his information is listed below: Instagram:  @jpokluda Books by JP Jonathanpokluda.com We scored some great deals with a few of our favorite brands for our listeners: Control Body Odor ANYWHERE with @lumedeodorant and get 15% off with promo code DEINFLUENCED at LumeDeodorant.com #lumepod Visit premierprotein.com and go to Where to Buy to find a retailer near you or to find where to buy online. Right now LMNT is offering a free sample pack with any purchase, That's 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors or share LMNT with a friend. Get yours at DrinkLMNT.com/dani. Get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food at The FarmersDog.com/dani. Plus, you get FREE shipping! We've worked out a special deal with Hiya for their best selling children's vitamin. Receive 50% off your first order. To claim this deal you must go to hiyahealth.com/DANIAUSTIN. This deal is not available on their regular website. Make sure you’re subscribed to our official channel on YouTube, @deinfluencedpodcast, and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your De-Influenced fix! Stay connected with us on Instagram and TikTok @deinfluencedpodcast, and as always thank you for being a part of this journey.  Let us know in the comments how I did on my first solo mission!! (pls be gentle)  Love, Resident Conspiracy Theorist Jordan

The following podcast is a dear media production. Three, two, one, guess what? This is my first ever episode solo on the Jordan guest list. And I have my man, J.P. Pekluta? Yeah, you nailed it. Okay. I didn't want to mess it up. On the pod.

I feel like you've got to say Danny's going to walk in any minute and jump in with us. So they stay with it. No, no, no. Chris, they love us. They love me. Yeah, no. I, that, they do. That's a rough start.

You don't believe in me? No, I believe, I believe we do love you. And, you know. Yeah. So we've been wanting to do this episode for a while. We've texted it out and we knew exactly what we've wanted to talk about probably six months ago. Yeah, there's, there's been at least eight alien texts, conspiracy theories. That's so true.

The demonic. You're kind of my go-to pastor to ask about spiritual warfare, aliens, any of the fringe topics. Like, I feel like you're pretty down with them. Yeah. No, I'm 100%. I mean, I fancy myself a conspiracy theorist. Yeah. So tell...

Which is also a realist. Yeah, no. The whole term's been kind of rebranded. Highjacked, yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's been meant to demean us, but ultimately we're truth seekers. Truth seekers. Yeah.

So I want to familiarize the audience. I think a lot of our audience probably knows who you are already. And a lot of them don't. Yeah. So will you kind of give me a 360 of JP? Yeah. So raising in a small town, South Texas, 6,000 people in the middle of nowhere. And school in Waco for two years, went to a technical college you've never heard of, studied art, moved to Dallas, was raised Catholic, didn't go to church in college. They say drug, sex, and rock and roll. in my case drug sex and hip hop i was at a club um i mean like a mile and a half from where we're at right now less than a mile less than a mile where we're at right now i was in a club on a saturday night and someone invited me to church i went hung over sat in the back row smelled like smoke from the night before and um started really studying what do i really believe about god you know and looked at the and i thought what are the odds i'd be born to the right country like if i was

born in India, I'd be Hindu. If I was born in China, I'd be Buddhist. If I was born in Iran, it'd be Muslim. If I was born in Israel, I might be Jewish. So I started like really studying world religions with a biased against Christianity. And as I looked into them, kept tripping over Jesus in history that somehow 2,025 years ago, this carpenter born in Bethlehem reset the calendar. We started counting over again from his birthday. I'm like, how did that happen? And so that piqued my interest. I was like, oh, maybe there's something to do. Jesus. And then I went into ministry, was a part of a movement here in Dallas called The Porch, did that for 12 years, and was on staff at Watermark. And it ultimately became the pastor of that

church I went in, hung over, and then moved to Dallas, moved to Waco six years ago and pastor in there. Is your family still Catholic? No. My dad was Catholic until he died. He passed away in 2020. And, but like, I got to share the gospel with him and, and just clarified, like, what he believed. And I'm not saying the Catholics don't believe the gospel. Some do, some don't. Some Baptists don't believe the gospel. Some do, some don't. So when you say, sex, drugs and hip hop, were you in hip hop? I was into hip hop. Okay, I was going to say, for some reason, I was like, maybe you had a music career. Yeah, yeah. No, I like had this, like, side hustle beatboxing career at birthday parties.

You know, so, but. So what, you were how old when you were in that club? 22. 22. So what was the trajectory or the, the dream state of your life at 22 before that club? So I worked for AT&T and I was a, I was in business development,

which is a fancy word for sales. And I like really like had a lot of identity in sales. Like I was at one point, like talking about a book deal with Zig Ziglar, who was like the the guy in sales here in Dallas. Like sales was my world, sales training, psychology of sales, all of that stuff. And so then when I became a Christian, when I surrendered my life to Jesus, that I just kind transferred to evangelism.

It's like, all right, I'm going to tell everybody about this guy that can help you live forever, you know. Yeah. And what about the art degree? Yeah, like nothing there. That's just. So you didn't do any art? No.

I mean, I still paint. Yeah, you do. Did you send us a painting of of a dog of Hazel? Yeah. Oh my gosh, I remember that. It was a drawing. I remember being so fascinated that you did that. I, well, when I got here, I looked everywhere around the house for it.

And I just didn't see it. But it's okay. No, yeah. Well, it's really confusing. It's not you. It's us. Because every time Stella would see that painting, she would say, Hazel's dead.

And she's on an airplane with Jesus. and it was really starting to confuse Stratton. So we had to just kind of put that. I get it. You got to do what you got to do, man. Yeah, she's very blunt about Hazel being dead. She's just like, Hazel's dead. So our dog's name is Stella.

So when you said Stella, when you said, when Stella saw that, I was like, oh, wait. Yeah, that's right. And you, can we just get this out of the way? You have a pet bird. Used to. Oh, also died on an airplane. No.

We actually gave her away. So there's a lady on a, the street on our street whose mom is like this huge bird fan and everyone loved the bird except Monica like Monica hate my wife hated the bird and sweet pee was her name and so Monica ended up taking care of sweet pee because she has like the biggest heart you know and she's like she's cleaning the cage and feeding her and doing all the things and she's like I'm going to get rid of sweet pee and we're all like no you can't and she's like no unless she'll take care of her I'm going to get rid of her and we're like no and then like one day this lady just shows up and she loads up the bird cage in the back of the car we're like what are you doing so sweet peeve still alive but she like lives on a farm outside of waco and she was a quaker parrot so then monica's like oh monica's like the biggest danny fan and and i said that's probably not true there's bigger danny fans but every night as she's brushing her teeth that's like she's she's not on social media at all but she will watch danny every night and watch you guys and watch you guys and

and she's and she's like divvy, divvied out. Like she swears by it. Like she'll get these little baby hairs that will just like grow straight up. And I'm like, what are you? She's like, what are you doing? She's like, these are my divvy hairs, you know, because they just like all of a sudden her scout just starts producing new hairs, new hair growth.

And so we're like big divvy people. And so she tells me she's like, hey, Danny ran up on like a, I was going to say a herd, but not a herd, like a flock. Yeah, a flock of Quaker parakeets. All by the lake. Yeah, Quaker parrots. And I was like, what? So then I text Jordan.

I'm like, dude, this is crazy. I had no idea what you're talking about. I just texted this like random picture of our Quaker because I thought it was like new, new. I thought it was recent. And I'm like, hey, Jordan, check this out. And he's like, ha ha, that's cool. I don't know, I don't know why you're sending me that, but I'm here for it. It's so funny.

Here's another one. our text messages are actually pretty great because they span from, and we'll get into this in this episode, they span from aliens, spiritual warfare. I think one time I asked you, why does the Catholic Church have all the exorcists? So you're like my go-to spiritual warfare, fringe topic, Christianity guy. And then we also have you texting me pictures of birds, would I have no idea what you're talking about. And then last night, we had a funny incident where, you were like, yeah, Monica said that Danny took two months off of social media to deprioritize faith.

And you meant to say prioritize faith. And then I was like, why is this guy even coming on the, is he about to like come on and grill us? He goes, he goes, you or me? And I was like, I was like you. Duh. And then I went back in red and I go, oh, man, I'm so sorry. And he goes, well, hey, Danny's not going to be on anymore. So. Yeah. So I want to ask you. That's a joke. That's I was already decided. I want to ask you, you know, I feel like I know J.P. The pastor was former head of the porch, pastor at Harris Creek. I've always kind of from afar thought this about you. I feel like you have really eclectic interests. You know, I feel like you, you're artistic.

What are some things that no one knows about you, like the public figure, AP that you are interested in, that you like to do for fun, you know, that you like to read about. So I don't read. That would be one thing. At all? Yeah, borderline illiterate. That's true. Dyslexic.

Almost no literary comprehension. And so when I'm writing a sermon, like I'm reading commentaries over and over and over and over to try to get my brain to absorb what I'm reading because it just, I'm, but I have, you know, people say, do you have a photographic memory? I don't, but I can remember conversations really well. So if I talk with somebody, I can remember like, oh yeah, you were wearing the black pants, the Travis Scott's and the shirt, you were sitting there and you said this. It's like my brain will kind of grab onto that, but not anything written. So that's one. I buy and sell, like have a, like my sports, like I don't follow a team. I don't get excited about anything other than getting

a really good deal on something. And so. So I value value more than anybody I've ever met. I buy and sell. Like I just traded a 32 Ford Coup for a 66 Shelby Cobra sitting in the garage. Like I love that. That's like what gets me going. Like I'm just fired up for that stuff. And yeah, I think that God has given me favor with, you know, for like a better term, people like yourself.

Because like I don't, I never learned to play the Christian game. Yeah. And so I'm like, hey, there's a God. It's all true. Like I've found what's true. And you're like, you know, people may be like, well, that's so close-minded. How can you be right? It's like, it's not that I'm right. No, no, I just found what is right. It's been there the whole time. And I approached it like a skeptic, like doubting Thomas. Like, I'm like, if I was there with Jesus, I'd want to put my finger in the holes in his hands. I'm like, oh, come on. Are you sure? You sure you're the same guy. And I love having just real conversations. And so I do something every Friday, called Friday Q&A,

where, like, man, people, when they ask, when you ask a pastor question anonymously, I mean, they ask a lot of crazy questions. Yeah. And so I can see that. And I really enjoy just having real honest conversations with people about that. And so you're very in tune with culture too, though. Well, that helps.

I mean, I would say I get more from that than I give because it's like, I can see, I get 2,000 questions every Friday. and I can see what people are asking. And that helps me stay in tune with culture. Yeah. And you've kind of found your niche. And I don't know if you agree with this, but maybe it was through the porch that this happened. But I feel like you speak mostly to young adults.

Is that fair to say? Yeah. So I'm 44. I dress like I'm 16. I mean, that probably has something to do with it. You know, I don't, I don't know. Like people are like, you're trying too hard. Is that the hate you get?

Dude, I know. I'm sure I'm trying. I mean, I'm not trying at all. But I'm confident it looks like I'm trying too hard. And it really is this like like earrings for a while. It's like I can't I can't wear earrings because I'm like pastoring a 150 year old Baptist Church in the country. And it's like, but is that then people pleasing?

Like is that am I seeking the approval of man if I don't wear earrings? And so then I'm going to wear them. And then it's I can get my head on all that stuff. It's weird. What kind of hate do you get? Everyone gets hate on the internet. You have a presence online. What's the kind of themes of hate that you get?

I like I don't know man I think probably the biggest thing is like I'm anti-woman really yeah like I'm like man it's so good to know that about myself because I mean I got amazing wife and two daughters that love me but I guess I like sometimes like that has that will rare its head at times and I'm like dude I'm the most pro woman person I've ever met like I am all about just giving you know I've worked for a woman most of my like my my whole career outside of ministry my boss was female and she's like one of my favorite bosses I've ever had and so I don't know that that like what's the what's the play devil's advocate for a second what's the thread by which that narrative is created I think it's

like the theological term would be complementarian so like I believe that like God created us to to to like he there's like a mom and a dad I guess and you'd break that down and I think that's maybe where it comes from. I don't know. It doesn't show up a lot. Like when it shows up, it's loud. So that would be some of the hate. Oh, and like, like, I sell because of that whole selling thing.

Oh, so it's like, dude, you're really pushing your book hard. And it's like, well, I wrote it and I love it. And it's got, yeah, there's like a bunch of stuff in here that I like really believe in. And people are like, hey, this changed my life. This changed my life. This changed my life. And now are like, the publisher invested in me. I'm like trying to, you know, I want you to buy the book.

So like that kind of stuff, that would be some of the hate. Does it feel like a hard time to be a pastor right now? Just because you had the Carl Lent stuff happen. You've got a lot of figurehead pastors kind of falling. And, you know, I don't want to get into that. But does it create a culture that it's difficult to navigate being a pastor with authenticity right now? Yeah, I think it's easy. And I'm like, I'm not immune to this either.

I can look at Stephen Ferdick, and I'm like, man, you take care of your body and you really put a lot of thought into what you wore today. And that's an expensive shirt. And so it's easy for me to, like, judge him. And then I can, and people can say, well, that's true about you. And then I can say, oh, yeah, I would judge me too. And they can feel like, man, am I, like, you can believe, like, am I about to fall? Like, is that what's going to happen to me? Like, am I going to sleep with someone I'm not married to or do something stupid?

And so I have forfeited privacy. That would be something that's interesting about me. It's like there are people that have passwords to my bank accounts, access to my email. I'm going, we're trying to plan a vacation. And I'm like, whatever I spend on that vacation, a lot of people are going to know that number. And so I need to be wise and how I think about that. Because my life is completely transparent. There's really nothing hidden.

There's nothing in my past present that someone can't know. Right. And then there's a group of people that know everything all the time. And so just, I mean, those are the safeguards that I have in place. But like sometimes I'm like, oh my goodness, like am I about to fall off a cliff? And I think it's hard to be a pastor because, you know, the criticisms of any faith is, hey, it's close-minded. You know, it's like, what you think I'm going to hell, you know? Yeah.

No, I think God wants you in heaven. That's what I think. I think he desires for you to know him through his son. Jesus, like, yeah, that's closed-minded. It's like, man, but it's pretty, he's like got his arm stretched. Like, hey, come one, come all. Like, I paid your way in. And so, like, I get, I get those criticisms.

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Go to the farmersdog.com slash Danny to get 50% off. That's the farmer's dog. slash Danny. I think you do a really good job with your Friday Q&A, though, of taking a lot of that head on. That's what I've always respected about you is that I think that so much of what you know of a pastor typically, and social media wasn't around for a while, so much of what you know about a pastor is what you see on stage, right? And very few get the personal relationship of, hey, can I ask my pastor a question? You're at a big church, so it's not scalable for you to have a direct interaction probably with every congregate as much as I'm sure you try.

But the Friday Q&A is really the anonymous nature of it. I've seen some and I'm like, dang. I'm like, because you get to choose the questions you take on. They are so curious about sex toys, man. There are like so many questions about sex toys. I'm like, guys, clearly you're new here because I answer this about every two months. And it's just like, man. So because of the porch, because of your Friday Q&A,

because of where you're at in Harris Creek, which is a feeder church of Baylor, right? So a lot of young adults. Give me a snapshot of, I guess what is that, Jen, is that Gen Z now in college? Gen Alpha, Gen Alpha and Gen Z. What are you, give me a snapshot of what you're seeing in those generations right now as it pertains to what culture they're engaged with, what they think about Jesus, what they think about the church. Yeah, it's fascinating times. highest levels of depression we've ever seen, highest levels of anxiety, highest levels of suicide. The phone is totally rewired our brain, the way we think about things.

Alcohol is at an all-time low. I mean, and it's really significant. And so that's fascinating. You have people like Dr. Amen, who's, you know, I guess has a clinic here in Dallas, is saying we're going to look at alcohol like we did about like we did cigarettes, which is fascinating. Yeah. I think social media too. Yeah. No, I would go harder on that. Just the, I would say the iPhone in general, a smartphone in general.

That's a hot take too. We're aligned. I'm not surprised. You must hate what we do. No, I love it. Sometimes we hate what we do. Well, here's, it's like, do I hate what I do? It's like, I've got a podcast. I've got a social media presence. I mean, somebody would say, you're, people tell me, oh, you're a, you're a, you're a, an influencer. I'm like, well, any leader is an influencer. I mean, to lead is to influence, right? Those words are synonymous. You know what I hated as I hated when the early social media

days like 2017 or maybe 2020 where a lot of pastors, I feel like justified. I think now it's probably seen, you probably see it as a necessary evil, right? It's like a really good way. The Friday Q&A's do a lot of good. Social media does a lot of bad. So it's kind of like, you know, it's a necessary evil. But I hated when they were like, you know, social media is the boats that are going to take the gospel overseas. And they tried to wrap it in this like really good thing. And I think a lot of pastors use that to kind of just feed their own ego of like I actually want to be famous and I want to have a platform. I think we're coming out of that stage now where I think people understand the danger of it for the most part. Yeah. There's truth to it.

C.S. Lewis said so great as something's potential for good, equally great as this potential for evil. And I think that is especially true with technology, especially true with social media. There's a great potential for good. There's a great potential for evil. The problem is people. Just take me, for example, there's something in my heart that really wants to be rich and famous. It's there. I don't ever want to have to worry about money. I want my kids to be able to go to school wherever they want. I want to be able to eat and not crunch the budget. And all of those things are there. There's also this part of my heart that wants to preach the gospel, die and be forgotten.

That's a Caldzezendorf quote. And so those two things sit side by side at all times. And so if you're a critic of me, you're going to be, oh, that dude just wants to be famous. Well, you're not wrong because there's a, and even if I defend myself in that, I'm like, no, that's not true. I left a high-paying job to go do this. We were bootstrapped for a long time, all because I wanted, you know, just to help people. When I went into ministry, it wasn't to preach. It wasn't like the church was like, hey, come and teach us.

I didn't even know the Bible, much less preach the Bible. I took a $40,000 a year job to set out chairs. It was like, hey, come sit down. I was like, okay, I'm going to do it because I just want to serve. And then God did what he did. And now it's like, sure, big stages and those kinds of things. but I go back to the honestly, I long for that. Like there's a part of me that like, man, the obscurity of that was amazing.

And so all of that's there, all of it's messy, and we're all trying to work it out. And so I trust the person in the least that's like, no, dude, I'm doing this for all the right reasons. I'm like, oh, man, you can't be. That's impossible. Same. I so appreciate that statement because I really do feel like that is where the enemy prays the most. We're human, right? any human is going to want the same things we're all tempted for.

Money, fame, riches, success, all the things. And the pastors I felt most weary around are the ones that are like, man, all for the glory of God. Like, be real. Like, be real about the struggle. And I think just Danny and I being in social media for as long as she has and as long as we have together, we know. Like, we can see it on someone's face.

the people who are trying and the people who aren't. And I think that I feel a lot for the pastors that were raised in the first era of social media pastoring because no one was prepared for it. Like we weren't even prepared for it from like an influencer perspective. How could we prepare these pastors who are supposed to be going out there for the gospel to not fall prey of this being about them? Yeah. Right. And I watched Carl Linz documentary, the Vanity Fair one. I haven't listen to the podcast because it's like such a deep dive. I want to like do it when I have a season to go all the way through it. But I, I really walked away with a different perspective than I think a lot of Christians wanted to, which is like blame, shame, you know, just

completely get him away from the church entirely. That was a man that was exposed to the height of fandom on a church stage and he wasn't prepared for it. Right. And, um, It's interesting. You know, I do feel like the culture in this church has shifted a little bit to where they're being more protective of pastors with social media and just realizing the dangers of it for the most part. Yeah. And like you had asked earlier, even like a criticism and whatnot.

Like I think for a long time, I wrestled with, you know, you can't not think of image. And I'm like, man, maybe I need to like just buy it like a tweed blazer and like not like dress, you know, weird. Yeah. Now the problem with that with the next generation, Chinalfa, you dress. dress weird, you're dressing cool. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's all cyclical. It comes back around. If you're like, dude, I just got this at a garage sale. They're like, that's amazing. They're like, you thrift. Yeah. That's so great. So it's like, you just, you can't. And so I just,

you like, here's a deal. I'm just going to be me. And the, the hardest part I think about being me is how many people are disappointed by that. You know, you're just, you're really choosing who you're going to disappoint all the time. And even as I, say that it sounds like oh like you're a big deal like no i'm not like i'm like you said there's there's a lot of people there are like who is this guy and why is he on here and so it's like even that it's just like you're going to disappoint folks in that and so i think know yourself like yourself be yourself and sleep well at night and just be transparent that's the thing i that's the thing i that's the thing i can't do is i don't want to i think i hid for a long time like even even when you know back in the day

when I was dating Monica and it wasn't faithful. And I just was always managing information and playing the game. And I think I did that for so long that I just got to this breaking point where it's like, I'm not going to manage information anymore. Right. I don't even like that. People are like, hey, can I tell you this confidentially? I'm like, oh, man, I don't really want you to.

Yeah. If that's okay. Yeah. I just don't want to manage information. Well, I think for what it's worth, I think that you've done a really good job at speaking. to gen alpha and gen Z. And I think that God has a purpose for you and engaging with culture. Like I think that there's different levels of pastors, right? Like I think we've talked about this before. We called it like the gospel funnel, right? Where it's like, you know, I think when people

watch Danny's stories, they know what drives us in our life, which is our faith. But I think that people are going to follow Danny that don't believe what we do. Right. And it's because we're not, you know, it's not like an anchor point in every single day of our content. It's just kind of the driving force before it. And then I think at the bottom of the funnel, there's like these hardcore pastors where every bit of social media is going to be gospel, gospel, gospel, church, church, church, this verse. And I think that you are really awesome in the middle of taking curious young adults who want to know more about Jesus, maybe are curious about their faith, maybe are curious that something in their life is not working and are turning to your content or Harris

Creek to figure it out. And I think that God's really done a good job of giving you that platform and really giving you a gift of like speaking into that audience. And so back to my question, I kind of cut you off. Like, where is Gen Z and Gen Alpha at? Yeah. Yeah. And so it's confusing because in any other generation, you would be able to mark them through trends and whatnot. like who they're listening to, the books they're reading, their go-to subscription services. What has happened in Gen Alpha and it started with Gen Z is it's more diluted than ever. I'll give you a really silly example. So at the porch back in the day, we used to do this like Songs of the Summer, where you would

take the top songs and we would teach Bible from them, we would say, hey, this is what this song says. Here's the truth from the scriptures. And it was that we'd do a song that everybody knew. And like that's gone. Like now people are listening to like rogue indie artists that no one's ever heard of because they have access to that. Now there's still the Billboard Hot 100. But if you start working down that list, like it's it's there's not artists that everyone knows of.

Once you get past Taylor Swift, I mean, it gets diluted really fast. And in fact, you could talk to people who were like like the big names at the Grammys this year. And they're like, oh, I've never heard. heard of them. And it's not just like, okay, boomer. It's like the gen alpha is like, oh, I've not heard of them. Like Chappelle Rohn, oh, yeah, I think, okay. Yeah. Oh, wait, what song? And so, like, all of the mainstream is not mainstream. Does that make sense? No, it does. This is kind of a funny question, but do you think that that's TikTok? Because TikTok's algorithm is so dialed to each individual. Like, we talk about this all the time with our Gen Z podcast producer. She's always

like her algorithm is telling her the world's crumbling. And I'm like, we are so winning right now. Like, and our realities are literally totally different based on our algorithm. And I think if you and I both opened up TikTok, it would be totally different. Do you think that TikTok has like allowed for more subgenres and subcultures to take forms? So everyone is now truly an individual. I think that's a different issue. So I think TikTok social media in general has created the echo chamber of, you know, whatever it gives me more of what I feed, which I've got. got an interesting theory on that in just a second. I think it is access.

And the way that God created us with very nuanced, unique personalities, and where before I would only have access to what you love, and so what you love became what I loved, well, now I can go find the very nuanced desire of my heart out there. I can find the music that exactly I like and I have access to it. I don't have to go and join a CD club or go to Hastings or, you know, even Best Buy or Walmart and buy a CD. It's like at any minute I have access and I get to decide who the great artist is. And if they're in their living room with, with a, you know, a camera and a banjo and I can be like, man, they're awesome.

And you don't have to think they're awesome because I can just feed my heart as much of that. And I can do the same thing with movies and I can do the same thing with literature and I can do the same thing with art. Where once upon a time it's like, hey, this Jackson Pollock painting is awesome, right? Right? It's awesome. Right? And it's like, yeah, it's awesome. But now I can be like, no, I don't think it's awesome at all. And in fact, I like this hyperrealism.

I like this, you know, whatever this is over here, this impressionist over here. And so I think that's a part of it. And I think it plays into your TikTok theory in that, you know, people say the heart wants what it wants. When Woody Allen had an affair with his stepdaughter, he very famously, he was questioned about it. I was like, man, how could you? And he very famously said, well, the heart wants what it wants. I would tell you that the way that God made our heart, it's an idol factory, it doesn't want what it wants. it wants what it's fed.

And so as you, your heart works like a bloodhound. It gets on a scent and it pursues it. Your heart works like Netflix. And so if you watch Netflix, if you watch, you know, office space, it might be like, well, how about the office? How about suits? How about this, you know, show? If you watch Outer Banks, it's like, how about gossip girl?

How about Gilmore girl? How about, you know, and it just starts to feed you more of what you watch. Your heart works the same way. It's like, oh, I like. This car. How about this car? How about this car? How about this car? Or like these kinds of houses. How about these kinds of? You might like one person's looking for a mega mansion while the other person is looking for a tiny home. It's like, oh, you like tiny homes? Here's more tiny homes. Here's a smaller house. Here's how you can live in a closet. And so it just continues to feed you more of what you're looking for. And I think that's what TikTok is doing. So TikTok takes that phenomenon that has always been true about our hearts.

and now it just closes off the rest of the world and says, oh, you're Republican? How about Republican like that? Oh, you're Democrat? How about be Democrat like this? Oh, you like these groups? How about you like these? And it just closes off everything else and just begins to systematically feed you more of your preferences, more of your preferences, more of your preferences, more of your preferences. So then what happens for us is we become these super consumers, meaning that's all we care about is consumer.

You know, and where the church has always been a place to come and serve and give. And now it is almost exclusively like this place for me to go and be served and get. Totally. And it's not enough. And it's never enough. It will never be. And that's why people church hop and, you know, they go from church to church because they're like, oh, you know, I don't really like this pastor. I don't like the way you dresses.

I don't like the. And it's funny because I would ask you the question. it seems like Gen Z and Gen Alpha have access to everything that their heart could desire, but they're still coming to your church pretty broken. Yeah. Is it isolation that they feel? I know it's depression and anxiety. We know that via social media,

but what's your thesis on what's going on in the super consumer culture of these generations that the church is now trying to step in and rectify or teach on? Yeah. we have to start with we don't know what's best for ourselves and if we don't learn that really fast we're going to be set out for devastation because some of the most miserable people I've ever met can have anything they want and yet they can't find happiness because it turns out that being able to have anything you want is is not a fast track to happiness but a but actually a fast track to anxiety and being overwhelmed. So I think that's a part of it. If it's a stew,

and I think in pictures, I'm a preacher. You're an artist. I think in illustrations. Yeah. So if it's a stew, like we're going to put in the ingredients. I think that's one of the ingredients, but not all of them. I think another ingredient is right now I know what's happening in South Africa. I don't know that my heart was made to know what's happening in South Africa and in London and in, you know, all these, and in the West Bank of Israel. Like, my heart wasn't made for all of that information at once. 20,000 children will die today because they didn't have enough water to drink. My heart wasn't made to know that as I'm buying my Starbucks.

And I have to consciously understand that me spending $5 on this cup of coffee is not giving $5 to eradicate this water problem in Lebanon or Liberia, rather. And so, you know, I'm not, I don't know that I'm supposed to sit in that tension all the time. So I think that's an aspect of it is all of the information that they have at all the time. And then, and then I think it's the, you ever heard the term paralysis by analysis? Yeah. So it's like I have so many options. I can't make a decision. Well, that, that they live in that all the time. Well, your last book was, remind why do I do what I don't want to do no the one before that the dating one oh outdated outdated

you dug into the dating culture within the church and I think that that's probably a big finding that you found was like it's Netflix for dating and yeah we I always talk about this we have a lot of 20-somethings that work at divvy that are female and all I hear in sidebar conversations is like the the guy culture right now is just consume consume consume analysis paralysis can't make a decision can't commit and then I talked to the guys on the other side and I'm like man yeah you're scared to commit because there's always something greener that's is that that was a couple years ago when you wrote that book that's still perpetuating right in the church yes they studied they did this study on jams like jellies in the store and they and so somebody said hey we we've got to sell these jellies

was a jelly brand and so they set out they set out three samples and you could try the jellies and then buy them and like sales skyrocketed and they're like oh this is a really effective way to do it you know what we'll do we're going to set out 12 samples we actually have 12 different flavors let us set out all 12 samples of jellies and in jelly cells plummeted they went way down they realized that the more options they gave someone the less likely they were to make a decision well if you apply that to the dating landscape today um so now i'm swiping left swiping right on tender it's like i'm constantly like what if I marry the wrong person? And all I mean by the wrong person is, what if I commit to somebody and someone else better comes along? What you need to know single friend is that's

absolutely true. You're telling me, like Monica chose me, you're telling me she's never had a better option since she's chosen me. Every single day of her life, she is faced with a better option than me. I mean, she loves babies and labradoodles. And I like the UFC and motorcycles. She's five, two. I'm six, seven. She's blonde. I'm Burnett. Like they're like, right, but, but she committed to me. And so when she closed off all those other options and said, hey, I'm, I'm going to be stuck with you, you know, no matter what happens. If you get cancer and I've got to change your diaper, like I'm still in it to win it. You know, that changes things. And so like we, I told you about a matchmaking service that I've gotten to speak into. And they basically have said,

hey, we're going to make the decision for you. And on one hand, it's really unattractive to the consumer. Because they're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold on. Well, I don't get any say. We're like, yeah, you get no say. Support for de-influence comes from Element. As you all know, Element is my favorite way to stay hydrated. I drink them all the time during Danny's pregnancy with Summit.

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And so it's all about, hey, we're going to send you on a qualified date. And the number one's questions we get is like, I say we because I'm a part of it, part of the team. And they're like, well, like how many dates? What if it doesn't work out? If it doesn't work out, it didn't work out. We're sending you on one date. So tell me about the process, because I'm fascinated by this. So people apply to go on a date, men and women, and then how do you qualify it?

It's been really fascinating in trying to figure out how do you get around. So there's like the challenge is if you have a dating app. We say it's a matchmaking app, not a dating app. But if you have any kind of dating app is all of the bots out there. and then you get catfished. So people use AI or they use fake pictures to say, hey, this is me. And so you can waste so much time out there.

So what we do is we have an application. So you pay an application fee, and it's a modest fee. But that's how you apply. And it's just like you're applying to a school. You may get in, you may not. And then we prioritize the things of faith with the premise of, hey, if two people love Jesus with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, It can work. And so we use AI and algorithms to narrow down options for you. And then there's these professional matchmakers working behind the scene. So it's a human touch at that point. And then they look and they say, okay, we think this person and this person could go together. And then they and then we send them on. Wow. How many users do you?

I don't know. How many applicants? Roughly. I mean, I truly don't know just because I'm not tracking. But it's brand new. Like this is brand new. As of when? Oh, it's been out for, it came out in the end of February. Oh, so very, very new. Very new. Oh, my gosh. We were trying to, like, launch Valentine's Day and we couldn't, and we're still working out kinks. I mean, it's been, you know, it's like.

Is the heart behind it for you that, so I'm going to take a stab. marriage has been one of the most sanctifying things I've ever been through. Marriage, marriage and then having kids. They say marriage is a mirror to show you how selfish you are. And so like I got married and I was like, dude, I'm so selfish. And then I had a kid and I was like, oh my gosh. I'm the most selfish person. Yeah.

The past four years have been quite sanctifying. Let me tell you. But is your heart that I'm sure it's twofold. One, you probably have a ton of people coming to Harris Creek just like they went to the porch. The porch is known as like dating factory, right? Like you go to the porch, you meet people. It's a singles ministry. It's a singles ministry.

Harris Creek, I think because of the Baylor scene probably is the same. But it's still not working. It's, you know, people are still struggling with the consumer culture. Is your heart behind qualified dating to lead people into one of the most sanctifying commitments you can ever make, which is marriage? It's to prepare them. It's for them to know. is hard, no matter who you marry. Like, marriage is hard.

And so if you approach marriage like a job interview and you actually give it the fore. Because everybody, like Hollywood's going to tell you lead with your heart. Again, the heart wants what it wants. Hollywood, they have informed our view of love more than anything else. Hollywood has one of the highest divorce rates of anywhere on the planet earth. So the people who are worst at it get to tell us how to do it. 100%. That's what's happening right now.

They say, this is how you do it. And I'm saying, man, okay, so the vast majority of history was arranged marriage. Dating is a, like, dating is about a hundred and twenty-five years old. The word dating entered the English language as a euphemism for prostitution. A guy was on a radio show and he started talking about his ex-girlfriend taking dates and he was talking about her sleeping around. And it came into the English language as a euphemism for prostitution. And, And now it's the word that we use in how to choose a spouse. And we think it's the end all be all. It's a relatively new idea. Prior to 125 years ago, no one in the history of the world had ever been on a date. The invention of the automobile really changed things for us, you know. And so I'm raising my hand saying, hey, it's a broken model.

It doesn't work that well. The better we get at dating, we have professional matchmakers, we have dating apps, we got personality test. I'm a I'm aneagram nine or I'm a lion, otter beaver, disc, Myers-Briggs, all the thing. The better we get at dating, the worst we get at marriage. You know, divorce rates are going through the roof, but then you still have like even people who stay married, but they're miserable. What you and I've learned is marriage is hard. And it's not, I'm not trying to like just find my best friend. It's really a partnership because then we're going to raise these kids. And it's a lot of divide and conquer.

It's like, man, I'm going to go here. You're going to go there. What do we need to do? And it's really a lot of dying to myself because it's like, I come home from work and I just want to, you know, look at cars on the internet. And she's like, no, I need you to figure out dinner. I need you to think about this. Hey, can you take run Finley, you know, to this basketball game? And so it's a lot of just partnership in life.

And so what I'm trying to do with qualified date, what we're trying to do with qualified date is to help people understand. you're trying to find someone who's a good life partner for you, not just someone who's going to make a great honeymoon, because the honeymoon is seven nights. Okay. Yeah. And then you've got to do life. And people, everybody bases, you know, marriage on sex.

If you have a healthy sex life, you're having sex. 0.06% of the time, you know, or maybe it's even 0.6% of the time. But what are you going to do the other 99.4% of the time? Right. you know so is um what are some uh some ways that you feel the modern church is also it is not addressing the specific problems in conversations needing we had with gen alpha and gen z and i would also double down on that question and say you know you coming from the porch you then being

head pastor at harris creek what are some very specific ways you wanted to speak to that audience in a new church environment, I would say. Because people are leaving the church. Yeah. I mean, the data's there, right? They're leaving the church big time. It depends on where you look. I mean, and it depends on the church.

I would tell you and your audience, I personally, in the past year and a half, personally, like, this is just me. I have prayed with over 30,000 college students to come into a relationship with Jesus. Like, that's me personally praying with them to trust in Christ. But that was in the college campus revival, which I want to get to, right?

It's still happening. It's happening. We're in the middle of it right now. I've baptized thousands of college students. Again, this is just the past like 365 days, maybe 18 months. So I'm seeing people come to the church. And so it depends on where you're sitting and what data you're reading and whatnot or whether we're in the midst of a revival or they're leaving the church. Here's what I would tell you, though, to answer your question.

The celebrity pastor model, it's broken. The consumer model, it's broken. To go to the church with the most relevant pastor, with the best worship, lives are changed at a table. Lives are changed in groups of six to 12. Jesus' model, it's never faded. Jesus could have done this any way he wanted to. He was God.

He was walking on the earth. He could have chosen the elderly. He could have chosen the toddlers. He could have gathered 100. He could have gathered 3,000, but he took 12 guys. And even his hit rate, you know, like he's there on the hillside of Cessaria Philippi. He says, who do they say the son of man is? And some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, other Jeremiah, one of the prophets.

He says, what about you? Who do you say I am? And Peter speaks up. And if you know anything about the Bible, you're like, Peter, oh, no, man. What's this guy going to say? He says, you're the Christ, the son of the living God. And Jesus is like, that's right, Peter. You got it.

I am. And on this declaration, I'm going to build my church in the gates of Hades won't overcome it. And they're like, dude, what are you talking about? You're going to build some religious institution? There's only 12 of us. And we're not even so sure about Judas. This dude may be playing for the other team, you know? Like, we're not.

Good joke. Pastor joke. And so, and then you fast forward the tape. And it's the most profound prophecy. the entire scripture, in my humble opinion, because, you know, this past Sunday, over a billion people gathered in that guy's name, over a billion people. And so I think you've got to go back to 12 guys at a table, you know, or six people at a table and just in that small group setting, that's where true real life changes.

I know. It's so real talk. I mean, you know, how do you pivot that from this kind of like, mega church model because I feel like that's the model of the U.S. right now. And so Danny and I, you know, we were going to a more corporate church, you know, prior and we just started, do you know, upper room? So we started going to upper room. And the reason we started going to upper room was we had just experienced so much spiritual warfare in our lives that we were like, man, this corporate experience is not really addressing what we feel like is really going on.

Yeah. In our lives. And I feel like that's happening in the American church all over, right? You know, you see pop-ups of house churches. I've never been to one of these college revivals. I want to hear about it, you know, but I'm sure that they're very spirit-led. So I guess what is broken and how do you fix it? Were y'all ever in a small group?

Yeah. And tell me about it. We left. Yeah. I mean, but why, though? So I think the heart of community groups was really good. So community groups, small group, home group, cell group, you know, life group, whatever you say. We're speaking Christianese, that's what they call it.

Yeah, so we were in a small group and it kind of just became a routine, a chore. I don't know if we actually like did life with those people. You're not going to like this answer because it goes into the consumerism, but we were paired with people. Yeah. Right. And that was tough, right? And, you know, we were all in different stages of life. You know, some of the women worked. Some of the women didn't. You know, some had kids. Some didn't. And that was hard. And we've seen more community from our, like, actual friendships and creating the culture within our friendships than we did there. And so that's why I'm kind of addressing what you're talking about is like, man, I think that how you get back down to the 12 is this community group type of model. But it seems pretty hit or miss.

Yeah. It is hit or miss. It is hit or. is. But so is marriage. Totally. You know what I'm saying? So is so much of when we bring in our preferences. And I think that if you get, you know, let's call it four to six couples and you say, hey, we're going to do life. Like absolutely, it's going to be like, man, we don't, we're cheering for different teams.

We're not interested in the same things. Hey, our schedules don't directly align. Those are all challenges that you're navigating in a tiny church because that's what it is. It's a tiny church at that point. So I was placed in a group, Monica and I were placed in a group. I showed up for the first time. This is a different season of life. I'm in sales at the time.

Pull up in a, you know, I was everything wrong with Dallas and a person. So I pull up in my Jaguar and my pinstripe suit. Jaguar. Yeah. Weird. And it's like who, you know, whatever. That's what I drove. And I, and they're in like these 98 Toyota Camry.

It was like, three engineers from A&M. And, you know, it just like different. upbringing. I was like, I've got nothing in common with these people. I was like, I'm never going back, but we just kept going back. And for five years, I hated it. For five years, it was like, it felt like I had friends, and then I had this, like, forced friendship because of the church that I had to go to. But we kept going. We kept going. And then when our, like, the wheels fell off in our marriage, like, those were the people that showed up to, like, put it back on. And they did it, honestly, Jordan, out of obligation. They're like, I guess we're stuck with you.

So what started with me feeling like, gosh, I'm stuck with you guys. I guess I'll help you, you know, know what to wear. So I don't, you know, whatever. And then it turned into, I guess we'll help you get your marriage back on track. You know, I guess we'll help you deal with this spiritual warfare. And it really was this agreement in a similar way that I'm talking about marriage. And it's not a covenant. So it is very different.

I want to be clear there. But it was like, okay, this is the church. We're in this together. And that's what we signed up for. And so much of that's going to. come down to your expectations. Like if your expectations in marriage are like, man, we're going to be swinging from the chandeliers all the time.

It's going to be amazing. We're going to have so much fun. Every day's a honeymoon. You're going to be set up for failure. If your expectations in your small group are like, oh, we're going to be best friends. We're going to have all the same interests. It's going to be so much, you know, supper club. We all love the same kind of food.

You're going to be set up for failure. But if your expectations in marriage are, hey, I've got a partner in life. When you go down, I'll pick up the way. When I go down, you pick up the weight. We got you. You see this in the scripture. There's a dude. There's this guy on a mat.

He can't walk. And so there's these guys that pick up a corner of the mat and they carry him to Jesus. And when they get there, they can't get them to Jesus. So they climb up on top of the roof and they drill a hole in the roof and they lower him down. And they say, hey, no matter what happens, we're going to stop at nothing to get you closer to Jesus. Like if I show up to that first life group meeting, that first community group meeting, and I learned that there's someone there that I've got to carry them everywhere they go. I'm like, dude, I drew the short stick.

Like, what, what? Why do I got to do that? But if I'm willing to lose my life for the sake of the gospel, now I'm seeing that through a different lens. If I really believe winning his service, now, and if I really believe, like, hey, I'm going to die one day and I'm going to be somewhere forever and ever and ever. And the good things that I did in the name of Jesus, I'm going to get back. there somehow as a reward. Well, now life has changed and I'm beginning to see it through a new lens. And now it's not what's in it for me, consumerism. It's, hey, how can I give to others? And there is this kind of Christian hedonism there where it's like, yeah, and somehow at the end,

after this world, I get it all back in the form of a reward. Like, that just changes the game. It changes everything. I admit, I think that there was some consumerism in us leaving our small group. I think it's, it is a mindset, you know, within like church congregations of like, oh, this isn't working for me. I need to get. It's a big problem across the board. And I do see the correlation between like marriage consumerism and community group consumerism. I want to ask you about this.

You've been to several college revivals. What's going on? I've been following your journey because you went to like, the first one. The first one is like Auburn. Yeah. So a couple things I don't want to mix up. So there was this, there was this what they call like an outpouring or revival at Asbury. Yes. That one. Even there was something at Passion then where there was like this 20 minute stall of seeing Agnes Day. But then I was invited to speak at this event at Auburn. And it was a one-off. It was just like a one time. He'd come speak at Auburn. I thought it was going to be 600 college students. It ended up being

6,000. That night a girl texted, reached out and said, hey, have never been baptized. And so we said, hey, well, let's baptize you. And then 250 people got baptized that night. We were out to like one in the morning. Well, we thought that was a one and done. But then Alabama called and then FSU and then Georgia, then Tennessee. And so it ended up, I went on this college tour.

We've been to 15 campuses now. All the campuses are different. But what's similar is over, like over a thousand college students come forward to give their life to Christ and hundreds get baptized. And that's happened at all 15 of them. So can you start with the Asbury, you said? Asbury was one that was different than Unite. Albury was the first Unite.

But you went and visited the Asbury one. Because that was the kind of first revival. I remember seeing it all over TikTok. And it was crazy. And so can you kind of tell the story of what we heard was happening there, true spirit-led college revival? And then you went what you saw there and what you kind of feel like is going on from a Holy Spirit standpoint.

It was like a chapel service. And so Zach Meere Crebes, who's now become a dear friend, priest's a sermon. He would have told you it was really bad. In fact, he texted his wife. He's an interesting cat. I like it. I love him to death. But he texted his wife and said, well, I just preached a stinker.

He's what he said. And he's like, I'll be home in a minute. And then he, like, text her again. He goes, hey, I'm still here. Something's happening. And the students didn't leave. They just lingered. And there's no.

there's no reason for it. There's no method for it. Like it's just like, and as the, the ones that were there lingered, more came in. And then more came in and then more came in. And they just start this never, this non-ending worship set and went through the night. And ended up being like 14 days, I think. I can't remember exactly how long. But it was, it was weeks. And, and so I was in Nashville for something. And the guy was with was like, hey, we should drive over to Asbury. So we went over there. and and it's hard to explain. I think everybody struggled to put words.

It's just that the Holy Spirit fell in that place and you could feel it. It was palpable. It was just like, oh, my goodness, what is God doing? And it's, when I say Holy Spirit fell in this place, you would sing and you would just experience this, this incredible sense of intimacy with God, the creator of the heavens of the earth. And, you know, people were having visions of their life and what to do. And they started coming from all over the world just into that chapel. And there was a line that really wrapped around the city,

started by wrapping around the university and ultimately the city of just trying to get in the chapel, such as people wanted to experience the presence of God. And that is continuing through United. Yeah, so Unite. And so Tanya Pruitt, who is the wife of the assistant coach at Auburn Basketball, she walked the campus and just prayed. at Auburn like Lord would you do something again to pray for those students and she had this vision of filling the, filling the basketball arena with college students. And she invited Jenny Allen

and myself to come and speak there. And that became this other movement, the Unite movement. Is there something specific that's going on on college campus as a particular? You know, like it's curious like why these revivals are happening on college campuses versus elsewhere. Is there something? Yeah. I think, I think it's happening in prisons too. And so again, Jesus chose these young adults on the hillside of Sessori of Philippi. That's what I didn't say earlier. He could have used elderly, could have used the toddlers, but he just grabbed these like young adults. And it was like, hey, it's, you know, and he started this movement. And so right now it seems like there's an outpouring of this Holy Spirit happening on college

campuses and in prisons. People are going into prisons and all these inmates are just repenting and giving their life to Christ. I think jelly roll is doing something. Yeah. with Brandon Lake. Yeah, right? And so you say why, and this is where we get, you know, hopefully everybody's dropped off before now. No, they haven't. Because Jesus is coming back, man. Like, like, think it was, so check this up.

So 2,000 years from Adam to Abraham's 2,000 years, okay? The Bible, you can, like, it's there in the scripture. You can chart it. It's 2,000 years, Adam to Abraham. Yeah. From Abraham to Jesus, 2,000 years. Okay. So when did Jesus show up on the scene? How many years ago? Oh, I don't know. Think about it. What happened? What happened? 2025 years. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. I didn't want to be wrong.

So 2025 years ago, this carpenter is born in Bethlehem and resets time. And we start counting over. So BC stands for before Christ. A.D. is Midiolvali of Latin for Anodymene, is mid-evil Latin for the year of our Lord. And so it's 2025 AD because of Jesus. We started counting 2,025 years ago. So Jesus lived for 33 years roughly and maybe the calendar's off by four years or so. So essentially, 2003 will be 2,000 years of the church. And so something, we are like we are poised for something significant happening in somewhere between 2007 to 2035 something's going to happen. Is this a JP hot take or is this like a a lot of people are talking about this? Both.

Man, I got to get in this algorithm because I am not on this algorithm. Because it's my hot take a lot of, no, I'm kidding. No, I mean a lot of brilliant people. So what I said is factual. the 2000, 2000, 2000. Right. And so then it's just, and now you're seeing people are like, man, what's happening on college campuses? Why is this happening right now?

Why are so many people being baptized? Why are so many people coming to faith? And I'm like, man, we're being prepared for something. There's these red heifers in Israel. Do you hear about that? Oh, JD was telling you about this. So like the war, the war, the Hamas, Israel War. Now, this is maybe a hot tank.

So you guys do your own research on this. But like how this war happened is because Hamas flew in on a on a on a music festival and and like the people and killed people. But what which is tragic, let's just say that's terrible. But what happened was they brought in these red heifers. Now they brought them in from Rockwall, Texas. Hold up. That's my hometown. Yeah.

Are you effing with me here? I'm dead serious. I'm dead serious. They brought in red heifers. This is good stuff. People aren't dropping up. This is the podcast. Keep going.

They brought in these red heifers from Rockwall, Texas. Okay. To Israel. You can't bring in livestock. So they had to the way, like the government won't let you. So the way they got around this is through this like pet claws said that they're pets. Well, before Christ comes back, these red heifer, you have to find a spotless red heifer. okay well they found they found them through this breeder in rockwall texas they bring them in they have

to rebuild the temple and then the heifers have to get sacrificed okay all of this is happening behind the scenes hamas this is the hot take but i i read it too i'm not i'm not going rogue here hamas caught word of these red heifers coming in and they were upset about it that is at least one of the motivators for them flying in and and and shooting like doing a massacre at this music festival, which then prompted the war that is still being fought over there. Sorry, who is they brought in the red heifers? Oh, great.

The Red Heifer Institute. No, that's true. That's true. It's the, I'm sorry, the Temple Institute, not the Red Heifer, but Temple Institute. So they want to rebuild the temple. So all this fighting that's always happening over there, it's over this land, the temple, which is the same temple that we read about in the scriptures in the Old Testament. There's a mosque.

It's the dome of the rock right now. It's a mosque where the temple was. It's now a Muslim mosque. And so this is the land that's been fought over for years and years and years and years and years. And so the fighting that's happening right now, I believe, are over these red heifers from your hometown. Yeah, my mind's blown. We've talked a lot of conspiracy theories on this podcast. It's not even a conspiracy.

No, I know. It's just, it's hard that it's from Rockwall, Texas. That one really threw me for a loop. I had no idea about any of this. So, um, let's end on a little bit of our fun text conversations that we've had. Yeah. UAPs and aliens. We've talked about it. Yeah. You were the first one who theorized that they were demons. I thought you were crazy. I'm not going to lie. I was like this guy. Pastor answer. Yeah. Tell me how you got there because I've, I've, actually heard more and more about that lately. And I want to know what your how you got there initially. You just have to begin. It sounds like such a crazy stretch if you're hearing that for the first time. But this would be my question for your viewers and listeners. Do you believe in the spiritual realm? Okay. Like do you believe in angels and demons? Can we tea time there? Yeah. Okay. I'm going to take a step back. I'm mad. I went aliens first. Okay. Okay. So I want to go anywhere you So here's where I, this is what I've genuinely wanted to talk to a pastor about. Sex toys.

No. Okay. All right. I want to talk about people who go to Costa Rica and do Ayahuasca trips. Okay. Okay. So people go down to Costa Rica and a lot of celebrities do it. And most notably there was a Aaron Rogers documentary where he went down and talked about his experience with Ayahuasca.

and a lot of times what I think people experience in ayahuasca is they truly talk about seeing God or a higher power or the universe. And it's always very similar topics that they say it's all interconnected. It's energy. I saw myself as a child. You know, they seem to kind of travel through time in different dimensions. I've always believed that there is a spiritual realm.

I think it's biblical, right? So there is a world, a spiritual realm beyond what we see in our physics environment here. I think it's very similar to the world of angels and demons. And I think that these psychedelic drugs give you access to something that maybe you're not meant to see. And I just wanted to kind of like ask you what you thought about these celebrities who do these types of trips. And do you think that they access the spiritual world. And I guess what does the Bible say about that spiritual realm?

Yeah. Okay. Let me take a step back because it's very interesting and uninteresting all at the same time. I always feel a certain way when I talk about this. So Lord just protect us as we talk about spiritual things. Amen. Okay. Before there is the world as we know and understand it.

Like people, creation. there is the spiritual realm. So there was a legion of a or I shouldn't say legion. There's a bunch of angels. So God, the angels are created beings like humans are created beings. Angels are created beings. And they exist in the presence of God in heaven. And there's one and he's beautiful. Ezekiel and Isaiah tell us that he's really more beautiful than the other angels. And I believe in the Hebrew it says that he's like has musical instruments baked into him, like created in. in him. I think he's actually like the first worship leader. Now, angels were created to worship God. Okay. Well, this one that we now call Lucifer, which it really only shows up in the King James Version, but we'll call him, we'll go with that name. As the most beautiful, he doesn't want to worship God.

He wants to be worshipped like God. He wants to be God. And so God in this supernatural spiritual negotiation says, okay, well, why don't we see what kind of God you can be? And it says that he casts him out of heaven and he casts him to earth. He's sent out of heaven. He's sent here to earth. Well, Revelation 12 tells us that he takes one third of the angelic realm with him. So one third of the angels fall with Lucifer and they're here on the earth as demons. So a couple trivia questions. If you ask your viewers and listeners, where is Satan? Where's the devil? a lot of times people will say hell no no no no he's here on earth okay um in fact second corinthians chapter four verse four another trivia question you say who is the god of this world

second corinthians chapter four verse four says that satan is the lowercase g god of this world he has a lot of authority and power here we see this in the whole book of jose is dedicated to this as a case study and he takes out his family causes him to be sick he burns down his farm. He has a lot of authority and power here. And so he's, it says in 1st Peter 5, roaming the earth, looking for someone to devour. He wants to hurt us. And he has one-third of the angelic roam with them. Now, the good news is they're out number two to one, but they're here on the earth. And so these guys, what their number one agenda is, is they don't want you to experience the abundant life that Christ has to offer you. Now, that satanic spirit of, hey, I don't

want to worship God, I want to be worshipped like God, is the same satanic spirit that operates here on the earth. It's the spirit of selfishness. It's the same spirit that causes consumerism in church and the same spirit that causes consumerism in a small group. And it doesn't create happiness. It seems like it will, but it actually leaves us despairing. So you can connect all these conversations that we had come down to the spiritual realm, right? We see how it works. When you sin, this is a simple little pithy statement. When you sin, you let them in. It says in Ephesians 4, do not give the devil a foothold. We give the devil a foothold by sinning. Sinning is willful disobedience. Sinning is doing something that is not what God would desire for us. Okay, so if I smoke weed, I'm letting him in. If I do LSD, I'm letting

them in. If I do shrooms, I'm letting them. If I snort Coke, I'm letting them out. If I mess with Molly, I'm letting them in. Anything when I get drunk, it says, do not get drunk on wine. but be filled with the spirit. I'm letting them. I'm giving myself over to the demonic realm. Now, when I do that consistently, right, then those footholds turn to strongholds. And so now I'm giving myself over to a demonic presence. Or you could also do that through a breakthrough like what you were talking about in some sort of experience, which is really a worshipful experience. They don't need you to drink blood and create a pentagram and, you know, sacrifice, a goat. Like, you can, they, they receive worship anything that is like you

seeking the spiritual things outside of anything other than Christ. Have you ever been to an AA meeting? Uh-huh. I'm sorry, I've been to a recovery meeting. It wasn't AA, but a 12-step recovery meeting. Yeah, so we have a couple of friends who, you know, yeah, have struggled. And it's crazy because I think a lot of, if you're, you know, not a believer, listening to this, It sounds pretty outlandish, but if you go to any like AA recovery meeting, they'll say the same thing. I have to, step one is like I have to admit that I'm powerless over XYZ addiction, right? And so much of it is higher power base because you literally have to be freed from this crazy thing. Yeah.

Yeah, so much, the bed of so much mental illness that we're seeing in the world right now is narcissism. I'm not saying exclusively. but a lot of times when you deal with someone who is schizophrenic, manic, bipolar, at the foundation of a lot of it is narcissism. Again, not always, but sometimes. I didn't mean to interrupt your point. No, you're fine. So it's just like when you send you let them in, you give the devil a foothold,

a foothold turns to strongholds. Like this is all real and true. And so these guys, they're running a constant slide-of-hand strategy. they if you believe in the devil then you believe in god and it's like it's hard not to believe in satan when you see some of the most heinous acts i mean there's people locked in cages today there's terrible things happening today again that our heart wasn't meant to know about but they all they're all it's all there the world is so incredibly unbelievably broken there's so much evil here and when you when you believe in the devil then you you have to believe in the supernatural

And so the in reservoir dogs, I think it was. He says the greatest trick the devil's ever pulled is to convince the world that he doesn't exist. But that's because he doesn't want you to know he exists. And so, you know, and so what do they do? They masquerade like an alien. So, well, so you believe that the spiritual realm exists and you would say that Ayahuasca would be one of those gateways. gateways to entering into it essentially. Yeah.

But I would just say it doesn't have to be ayahuasca. It can be, I mean, I'll just tell you, I know firsthand as someone who was possessed by a demon because he began to study Nietzsche. And as he went to a deep dive on Nietzsche, it led him to this goddess that Nietzsche worshipped. and he asked that goddess for things

and that goddess began to fill his life with things this demon that he was praying to began to fill his life with things and ultimately he was he was possessed so aliens we play it all out aliens are the one third of the angels here yeah no no no demons

demons demons yes and then demons will masquerade like aliens and aliens are and it's not it's not like the word wrong. We call them like foreign foreign life. What is it? Yeah. Well, UAPs or

all the terms for him. So it's just something otherworldly. And I, you know, I'm a simple guy. We've already established. I have a two year degree in art from a college you've never heard of. And so I'm just like,

I'm like, I believe the Bible's true. I've kind of like given my life to that. It's this collection of 66 books. and it doesn't talk about, you know, other planets, life on other planets, but it does talk about the spiritual realm. And so if there's evidence to support, you know, this other life, then I'm left to believe, oh, it must be this spiritual realm. And then when I'm like, oh, I don't know a lot about the spiritual realm, so I've been to Haiti six times, I've been to Africa multiple times, I've been to

the jungles of Brazil three times. And you always hear about these crazy, fantastic stories of demons, but I had never encountered that firsthand. But then I'm at a country club in America in one of the nicest country clubs in the world. And this guy comes off the course, he's got his good, good visor on and his, you know,

polo tucked into his khakis and his golf pleats. And long story short, and I pray over him and a demon manifests right there in the middle of the country club. Really? Yeah. Have I told you about this? No, will you tell the story? Dude. Yeah. So he comes off the

course, I go up, I'm talking to him, go to share the gospel with him. He's like, I'm a Christian. I was like, oh, tell me how that happened. He goes, but it's weird when I try to pray, I can't. I'm like, what do you mean? He said, it's like my throat closes up and I have this like physical problem with praying. I said, man, that sounds really weird. I'm just casual, like you and I talk. I'm like, man, that sounds demonic. And I'm writing your story has a villain. So I'm like in this like three year research project for this book on spiritual warfare. And I go, that sounds demonic and he goes uh he goes oh my gosh he's kind of belliger and he's like it's not demonic you know it's not demonic oh my goodness oh cool cool cool whatever and um and i go have you ever

had anybody pray over you and he's like yeah people pray over me sure whatever we're in this country club like one of the like super nice country club this guy i was i was there for a ministry fundraiser thing another friend walks up at that time praise god so i'm not alone And he goes, well, why don't you pray for me? The dude goes, why don't you pray for me? And I go, okay, put my hand on his back. I'm like, you're going to heaven. I just pray for John here.

Would you, you know, bless him, keep him? And if there's anything demonic here, Lord, would you just, I just pray you by it in Jesus' name. And he's like, like, doubles over. And I was like, oh, man, what was that? And I was like, and Lord, I just pray. And he's just like, and then he starts like, well, he starts by coughing. like like that and then and then he like hunches over and it gets real loud like growling like weird noises and then his arm kind of like contorts behind his back and like flies in the air and he's like

and he's like convulsing and I'm like what is happening right now because again I've been in all these places and you hear these stories but I've never seen it and I've been a pastor for 16 years I'm like, what in the world? And so I just started, I'm like, Lord, would you, you know, whatever, I don't even know what to do. Like, I didn't go to school for this, you know, we went to the same church. They didn't teach me this. I'm like, what in the world? I'm like, I just cast it out in Jesus' name, you know.

And so I get loud, he gets loud, I get loud. He kind of starts to calm down. And I'm like, you know, and I'm like, all right, Lord, would you just protect us? I mean, honestly, Jordan, like, the whole time I'm like, don't let it jump on me. Don't let it jump on me. Yeah, no, for sure. And, but I'm saying other stuff. in my head. I'm like, don't let it jump on me. And so, and I'm like, in Jesus name, amen. And he's just

kind of like left there, like lifeless and he like turns his head. And he goes, well, I didn't expect that. And I was like, bro, that makes two of us, man. What in the world? And I've got to leave. Like at that, because I'm like, I'm, you know, you have to check out at a certain time. And I'm like, 15 minutes past. I'm like, I got to go. I'm like, all right, hey man, I've got to, I'm going to go. You know, and so, and I'm talking to my other buddy. I'm like, what was that? And he's like, dude, it's like a Tuesday for him. He was like, oh, yeah, that was a demon, you know. Wow. You know, different people, like, they just, different backgrounds. He's like, oh, yeah, man, that's for sure. There was demons. Who knew so I don't know how many, but it was a demon?

And I was like, dude, are you serious? I was like, what do I do? Is it on me? Like, you know, I'm like, I'm like, so I'm like calling my charismatic friends. You know, I'm like, hey, so here's what just happened. They're like, oh, yeah. You just need to say this cleansing prayer. I'm like, okay you know and so then I'm like oh but dude like it it's going to come back seven times stronger like I got to find him so I go and I find him and I share the gospel with him like hey you understand like what Jesus did for you when we say the gospel by the way that just is a Greek word that means the good news that Jesus died for your sins and that God raised him from the dead and then if you trust in that that you can live forever like you can ask God like right now like I sinned against you I believe Jesus

died for my sins I believe you raised him from the dead and you can place your faith in that and live with God forever. And so I share that story with, I share the gospel with him. And I asked him, I said, did you believe this? He said, I thought I did. But I'm realizing I didn't. And he becomes Christian. Yeah, no, it's crazy. Have you ever heard of the Sean Ryan podcast? I was supposed to be on it right now today. Really? That's why I was supposed to, well. Oh, dude. I'm sorry. He gets like 20 times more views than we do. So, no, no, no, I was going to be in Dallas because I was going to have to catch a flight after this to the Sean Ryan podcast, but the whole Nashville trip got canceled.

Okay, yeah, he's a big military guy. He had an exorcist on his podcast, and I thought it was, I listened to it. It's crazy. But a lot of the same things that you had said. And he is, he's new to the faith. And so he's very, like, curious. And he, anyway, it's a great episode. And it echoes a lot of what you said. So we'll wrap this up. Tell us about your new book. Tell people how to find you. Your story has a villain available. where books are sold. You can find me, Jonathan Becluda.com, which is obnoxious, at J-P-O-K-L-U-D-A on Instagram, and just a regular Danny and Jordan fan. Thanks, man. Yeah, I do.

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