De-Influenced with Dani + Jordan - De-Influencing family, marriage, and parenting expert Jefferson Bethke

Episode Date: May 15, 2024

Welcome back De-Influencers, Jordan stans this one's for you! Well, it’s also for everybody because we’re talking about some hot topics with Christian Author, Jefferson Bethke. We De-Inlfuence Bethke, get into how he started writing books and became focused on defying the norms of the Christian culture. We talk about all things family, men, marriage, parenting, gender roles and societal norms and TRUST us… it’s nothing like what you think it is.  We also ask him some controversial questions about Christian Influencers, if Jesus and his disciples would use social media AND celebrity pastors. This podcast is JAM packed with helpful knowledge and a lot of Dani and Jordan picking Bethkes’ brain. If you liked this episode make sure you let us know in the comment so Jordan can keep up his guest ideas! If you want to follow Jefferson and what he’s up to here are his socials and most recent books: Instagram: @jeffersonbethke Books: To Hell With the Hustle  Take Back Your Family Fighting Shadows De-Influencers, you know we love you to hear what you think of our episodes and guests so let us know either here on Spotify or on our socials. If you haven’t, go follow @deinfluencedpodcast on Instagram and TikTok where we aim to provide you with comedic relief that you can share with family or friends who may not know about us. We’d also love for you guys to subscribe to De-Influenced on spotify or wherever you get your podcast so you never miss our incredibly entertaining episodes.  WE LOVE YOU!! XOXO

And welcome back to your favorite podcast, D-influenced. Guys, we're stirring it up a little bit. Today we're getting crazy. We're changing up. Y'all are in for a treat. And I'll tell you why this is a treat. First of all, we've a special guest. I've known this person for 10 years.

So crazy. But the most special thing about today's guest or today's episode is this is Jordan's dream episode. It really is. So you guys know, we have Daisy Kent. We have Jess from Love is Blind. we have Brittany, we have all the gals. It's a great, girly time. But now Jordan gets to have his moment.

And you all know he's into conspiracy theories. He's into things that are weird. Like he just, he has a mind of his own. And so he got to bring on one of his special, like, guest requests today. It's actually happening. This is big because I need everyone to go in the comment and say that they love this episode. because I have a whole guest list. He wants to be like somebody from the FBI,

someone from Area 51. There's a lot of internal debate that Jordan's guests don't fit the brand of the podcast, but I would argue that they do. No, I think they do. But I need to rally the support behind me and our podcast producer reads all the comments, so I need everyone to give this episode

five star and go in the comment section. No, I think you are going to love our guests. Okay, so tell us about who we have today. Okay, so I've referenced him a lot. His name is Jefferson Bethke. He's a New York Times bestselling author, and he wrote the book, Take Back Your Family. So I guess when did I meet Jeff?

I guess I met Jeff through you. So Jeff is technically like a viral content creator. He is a Christian, I don't know Christian influencer, maybe influencer author that is a Christian. You can't put him into a box at all because, in fact, I feel like he defies a lot of the Christian norms, and he writes about that a lot. He actually went viral.

I don't remember what year this is. He'll speak about it probably 15 years ago, maybe 10 years ago on YouTube for a video that he, it was like a poem that he recited about Jesus over religion, why he believes in Jesus, like the concept of Jesus over these man-made religious, religious, yeah, religions. And so he went viral. I mean, that video probably has hundreds of millions of views, if I had a guess. especially now. And so then he kind of like entered this world of being an influencer. And 10 years ago, when I started my YouTube channel, we connected because he was always so supportive of my videos. I think there weren't a lot of like Christians on the internet. So when you saw another one, you were like, hello. Like we support you. So he was always shouting out my channel. I would shout

out his, his channels, his videos. And so it's really cool because then once we got made, I was like, you got to meet this guy. Like, he's amazing. And y'all became buds. Yeah, so he gave me his book, take back your family, invited me to this kind of like dad's mastermind community. And I was like, no, it's not super relevant. It was when you were pregnant with Stella.

And then I read his book towards the end of your pregnancy with Stella. And his book kind of changed my life and my whole depiction of fatherhood in so many ways because what he argues for is like, hey, your job is not to be a babysitter to your kids. It's to be a coach and to like develop them over time. He talks a lot about like multi-generational living and the role that grandparents play in the family. And so I'm excited for this episode because I think it's going to be very like practical and value-packed for someone trying to raise like young kids, which I think is a lot of people in the audience. It's going to be amazing. We're about to change some lives.

Change some lives. All right. I think he's about to walk in. Welcome back to Deinflores. Woo, nailed it. We got Jefferson Bethke today. So listen, not to put any pressure on you for this episode. Okay.

This is the first de-influenced episode that is my episode. Wow. I chose the guest. Thank you. I rallied to have you on. No, obviously. Yeah, she was she voted up. You voted down.

The arm wrestle. Last episode, we have like Daisy Kent and the doctor. Now we got Jeffers and Bethke. What does that conversation look like when he's like, hey, let's let's have someone, let's have a non-female white influencer on the podcast. I was really excited that it was someone that was normal because he always wants these like crazy outlandish people that are like that work on area 51. Oh yeah, like the blurry creatures type people.

Yeah. Yeah. So he was like Jeff Betty. I was like, oh great. I love it. I've never been more proud to be called normal. Yeah. Thank you.

I was the press store going. It's good. It's crazy. Book tour, press, we're doing press, podcast, all the stuff. But I mean, I'm right now my buddy Matt is out of camera. We're going,

we've been in like six cities and six days. We're about halfway through Dallas for a little bit, which would be fun. Then we go to, apparently we go to Fort somewhere in Indiana that I think only 3,000 people live. And apparently it's an event for 500 people. so I'm about to pull. What is that?

20% of the, 15% of the town? Let's go. I'm excited. I'm excited. So we introduced you a little bit before we kind of pre-recorded an intro. But for someone who doesn't know Jefferson Bethke, how do you explain yourself in what you do? Quickly, I say I started making YouTube videos back in 2011, 2012. That's how we first met.

OG YouTube days. I talked about that. Yes. Literally before it's gone through so many iterations. But we were back in the early days. And then for me, in the same way that you've kind of evolved, it evolved towards more writing, speaking, kind of entrepreneurship, businesses, so I don't really do YouTube anymore. But I really care about family. I care about fatherhood. I care about men. I care about relationships.

And so me and my wife do stuff in that kind of space. Do you consider yourself a Christian influencer? Oh, I guess define your terms a little bit. I mean, Christian, yes. That was easy. You define your terms. I mean, it's always like, I would love to, you. You're so much more in this than I am. So I would love to hear like an influencer, certainly do I hope I'm someone of influence. yes, I feel like I'm trying to steward, like there's eyeballs, certain amount of eyeballs I want to steward that, I want to honor that. But I also feel like technically everyone is influencing at different scales. There's that as well. Yeah. But I would say Christian influencer, the only thing I would just in the same way that I don't know if you feel this way,

but when someone calls you an influencer, do you love it? Or you kind of like, eh. Oh, it's so I feel the same way with Christian influencer. I'm like, and especially once you start bringing God into the mix. Yeah, you're like, yeah, it's like, yeah, let me show you my 15% off code for the Bible. Yeah, I mean, it's a little weird. It's a little weird. It's a little weird. consider yourself a Christian author then? Yeah, 100%. I would own that one. I would own that one. Okay. So before we get into like everything that you write about, you know, tell us where you're from, how you found Jesus, like how you even got started on the path, almost like de-influenced Jeff.

Oh, okay, okay. Born and raised, Seattle, Washington, you know? I actually threw through some shade this morning at Oklahoma. I was in Oklahoma City this morning and they stole our thunder. I don't know. I don't even know. Like, you know, literally like they stole the sonics and they called them the thunder and they drafted Kevin Durant. So big Seattle guy, born and raised. Yes, thank you. Longheart. At UT, is all right? Yeah, yeah, U-T.

is all right. Yeah, so like, we love him because the Sonics actually drafted him, and then five minutes later, they stole our team. So there you go. But yeah, from Seattle until I was like 20-something, my wife and Alyssa, my wife Alyssa and I, we met at a friend's wedding. And we got married, started having kids.

And then she was, when we started dating, she was living in Hawaii. So we dated long distance. So we moved out there. Once we got married, she really wanted to stay there. And we've been there for a decade. and moving to Franklin, Tennessee in four weeks, which is awesome. But how do I start following Jesus?

College. So I kind of grew up in a Christian context, I'm sure. A lot of people in the West in the early 2000s, you know the answers, you know right questions and right answers. For me, though, it wasn't like it wasn't real. Like I wouldn't say there was anything about my life that was focusing in that trajectory of that perspective and just doing other things. College, I played baseball in college. I go to a little school called Point Loma Nazarene in San Diego. And in a span of like three weeks got kicked off the baseball team, got put on academic probation.

and then my first serious girlfriend broke up with me, which is like a decently bad two weeks, in my opinion. Decently bad. So I'm the personality where I kind of have to get like just shocked to the system to like wake up and kind of go meta for a second and be like, what am I doing here? And those were the life circumstances that did that. And I'm a little weird.

Like a lot of people that have come to faith, you know, a friend told him or whatever, I'm the weird guy where I just immediately went to the library. And I was like, I need answers. And so I just checked out like 17 books. And I just went back to my dorm room and read for a few weeks. And honestly, that was how I sort of walked with. the Lord, I just was like, oh man, the Jesus that I thought I knew about and this, you know, Swedish man with long straight hair who's like a hippie and really nice.

Do you know what I mean? I was like, I don't think that's quite the Middle Eastern First Century guy I'm seeing in here, full of love and grace and truth, but really fierce and really tender and really gentle. And so, yeah, that was really like really impacted me and woke me up and that was 15 years ago now. So how far between you finding Jesus through that path and then the viral video? The video is like five minutes. It's like, yeah, I should have chilled out a little bit. So you already have that like view of.

of religion so early on. Yeah, it was honestly, I think it was about two years later, you know. But yeah, but I think the reason why those videos looking back on it had kind of gotten impactful, I think, is because I was wrestling with a lot of that stuff in my own journey. I was like starting to walk with the Lord, follow Jesus, and they'd be like, a lot of this stuff is not adding up. There's like, I'm seeing this, I'm seeing this, but I'm feeling this and reading this. And so then I was just kind of like expressing through the spoken word stuff.

And then, yeah, which Matt's also the one that filmed it. Did you ever do? Wow. Wow. You filmed it? He's filmed every video for me. for like 13 years. Can you imagine if every video you guys have ever made

for the last decade and a half was one person? There you go. How many views does that video have? YouTube's in the 30s, I think, and then Facebook has about the same. So 60 or 70 or 80 million views, yeah. Y'all, this video was epic at the time. I have to ask, y'all need to go watch it if you haven't.

My biggest question that I asked you last, like when you first met in Utah was, do you believe everything that you said in that video to this day? That was a shock to the 60s. Yeah, good question. And tell people what the video is about. Yeah, so it's called why I hate religion, but love Jesus. And it's basically this juxtaposition of kind of, and again, a lot of language,

we're going to get a little technical here for a second, is cultural and evolves, meaning words will mean something for a particular period of time. And then as people kind of move and shift in a certain way, the word takes on like baggage, right? Like sleigh. Yeah, exactly. Like sleigh was a bad thing. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

And so it's like words do that. And that's culture. That's fine. At least in that moment, I definitely feel like religious. in was a word associated with just kind of like earning your way to God, doing all the right things, climbing a ladder to heaven, cleaning yourself up, making yourself more righteous. And again, that's very opposite of the actual gospel message in the scriptures, right? Jesus is so unique that he's kind of like climbing down the ladder to heaven coming to get us,

not saying climb the ladder up, come to me. And so I just wanted to really paint that black and white juxtaposition and so that's what the video is about. Do I agree fully with everything I said? I'd have to go back through it line by line. I don't, I certainly probably, well, it's weird, right? Because it's like you grow, you get older. I feel like the tone, I'm like, ah, that's a little cringe, the tone.

I watch it now, you know what I mean? By the time, it was so cool. Yeah, exactly. How do you feel when you watch your YouTube videos from 13 years ago? I can't, I can't even watch them. Yeah, that's literally, especially the poems, some people still play those at churches before I go up on stage and I just like, I have to like exit the room. Like this is so, like, let's not.

Yeah. I barely had facial hair at that age. You know what I mean? It was just like, it was real. We can't even listen to last week's episode. Oh, the podcast. Like, oh, what did he say? We've never listened to a single episode we've ever recorded.

Like, I'll have friends come up to me and be like, oh, you talked about this? And I was like, did I? Yeah, I've got out. Exactly. Well, can I ask you something? So you found your faith when you were in college. Yep. Then what was your childhood like or your home life like?

And how has that influenced how you raise your kids and what you write about to this day? Great question. Great question. That's a deep one. We could probably answer up for the rest. I would say, so I was raised by a single mom. Shout out to my mom if you're watching. She's one of those moms that watches everything.

What's up? Mom. She's amazing. I love my mom. She's a hero. She's incredible. But at the end of the day, too, also very rough upbringing. Like she was, you know, she had some mental illness. It was a lot more serious then. She's amazing. It has kind of, you know, gotten health now, mentally healthy now. Social, you know, Social Security Section 8, food stamps, you name it. Like, we were like one click above homeless my entire life. What's funny is when you are raised in that environment in a normalized way where like they never even, my mom and they never even got, so they never got divorced. It was just always me and my mom. There is a weird, normalization with it where you're just like, I don't know anything different, you know what I mean, until you kind of get older and you see some friends and you start kind of taking notes. But how did that affect me? So the cool part is I have a very fond. A lot of people don't have very good view of the church, right, from like their childhood or youth group days or whatever. Like, you know, oh, I got burned by or at least that's the common message you get on the internet. You go on Twitter, that's the common message.

For me, it was the opposite. For me, it was like, man, they showed up big. Like, we're getting groceries on our doorstep all the time. Like other fathers of like friends of mine in the church are taking me on camping trips, taking me to baseball games. So I have such a very, very warm view of church, certainly in my childhood. But it was never real, like I mentioned. It was just kind of like swirling around me, if that makes sense.

And life was pretty tough at home. But how does that affect how I raise the kids now and stuff? I feel like for me, and almost what I just said, like I'm very sensitive. I think, you know, I'm going to say this in a Christian way. I think the Lord uses if you've gone through suffering as a gift you can have towards other people if you've healed. But you could also say that, I think even without the Lord. meaning if you've gone through a really hard thing, I think that tends to be your gift you can give to the world.

And so for me, like, I'm hyper sensitive to, like, a single parent kid. Or I'm sensitive to, like, if they feel left out, or I'm sensitive big time to, like, kind of lower income families. And if they can't afford baseball equipment, like I couldn't. You know, stuff like this. And so that's how I think out affects us in my family. It's like we, you know, we have resources now. Me and Alyssa are married and healthy.

And so we're constantly as a family on a mission to kind of look for those opportunities, look for those things. and so for anyone listening, I would say that too. Like, you know, think about if there's hard things you've gone in your life, you have to heal first. You can't use them as a strength until you've healed properly. But if you have healed in them and done the hard work, then it's like, man, that is actually, don't block that out.

That's actually kind of a conduit of where I think you can be used really greatly in the world. Well, and also, I mean, just to state the obvious, you wrote a best-selling book about the role of fathers and families. Yeah. And I think that that is like using suffering to study and dig down into something and then help others, you know, understand their role in the family. Can I ask. Oh, sorry.

Yeah, are you? I love you guys, a dynamic, by the way. We've never. say. But it's like, you know, it's, it's tough. My dad did not make the best choices in his life. So it's like, you know, a phone call to my dad feels like it's lasting three hours. I ask every question known to man to try to relationally connect. And then it's like, oh, 47 seconds went by. You know what me? Yeah. And you're like, yikes. So, yeah, so like we have a cordial relationship. I love him. He's awesome. But it's not like super deep if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. One other like,

like preface question, because we're going to dig into your book later. You're in an enneagram eight. I am. Can you tell? Hard eight. Oh, 100%. I'm a hundred percent. I'm an eight. I'm an eight. Eight with an eight wing. Do you think you're a healthy eight? That's a question probably for Alyssa, not for me. But yes. Okay, good.

Yes, I do think I am. Because unhealthy eights are like really hard for me. No, I agree. I agree. And most people say that. Like, eights get a bad rap because they're just jackasses. Can I say that?

Do you have to bleak that? It's okay. You gotta bleep that. Yeah, we're good. That's probably the first time I've swore in all years. But they are. Like, it's like, it's like, dude, chill out.

Be nice. Be kind. So I would hope I'm semi those things, which then maybe makes me think I'm somewhat of a healthy eight. But I like being an eight, man. I really see the world through like the challenging lens and just like, why do we do this? Why are you doing that?

I don't understand. Which basically every single one of my books. Every one of my books is like, why do we do this? And this is how I've described you on other podcasts is I've said, listen, you know, this is someone who understands what's a cultural norm in that moment. Yeah. So when hustle culture and Gary Vee, we're talking that culture, you're like, hey, I'm going to write a book called To Hell with the Hustle that says why this is actually really

dangerous. Yes. when COVID years hit and the family was being torn down, you were like, I'm going to teach families how to take them back. Totally. You got a new book, which we'll talk about in a second. But I think eights are the only ones who can do that. Oh, I'll receive that.

What are you guys, by the way? Three. I see that. 100%. I see that. Guys, we are so stereotypical. I know. But he kind of makes it powerful.

So whenever you're writing your books, especially when it came to take back your family, since maybe like there was a lot that you wanted to infuse into your family that you didn't have growing up. Like where are you finding this information or your inspiration or these resources that actually help grow your family? Great question. On the macro, tons and tons of reading at probably a pretty crazy level of just the research of sociology, ideas, tips, etc.

I took a ton of wisdom in my, I do take a ton of wisdom in my family from business and sports books because as I alluded to in the book, like healthy teams are what families need to be, right? And the West has kind of overcranked that to making the individual the most important thing at the expense of the family because there's no really shared mission in a family. And so when there's no shared mission, then it kind of devolves down to just the individual's comfort and consumption as the main goal. Individuals, sorry, can you say that again? Individuals.

So how would I say this? Explain it like we're five. My brain's about to explode. So individualism is one of the highest ideas. of Western culture, which is a great thing, by the way. Because we're, but we're focused on our stuff. Yes, and it's a great thing. Tell us how you would see that playing out in culture today.

Well, I think, like, we can go on the macro level. It goes all the way back to, like, literally, like, the Declaration of Independence of caring about individual rights, caring about, like, the individual, vastly important. And so all I'm saying, I say, I think that value has swung so far that we see in our culture today that now, anything that's a hindrance to the individual that, you know, pre 50 years ago, pre 30 years ago, we would have called, oh, hey, maybe if something's limiting you, that might make you grow, that might stretch you, that might make you have to build some grit. We've swung so far that now anything that, like, oppresses the individual is evil, wrong,

and should be stopped, right? And so, and that's really, really, my argument in that book is that's really, really damaging to the family. Because the family then becomes actually, like, and this is Western culture certainly believes this, that the family is almost limiting to the individual. when I think the biblical argument, and certainly the ancient argument, even outside of a religious argument, is that families are created to be teams, right? That there's roles on teams, right? Just like there is with the warriors and the patriots and all these sports teams and different capacities and roles and giftings and talents. And this team, and I'm coming from a Christian perspective, so I absolutely believe that God has put a husband and a wife, or even if you're a single parent or a blended family, he's put your family together with your particular kids,

because the world needs that team to go do a thing that they could not do by themselves. Like that's the definition of a team is that you're trying to accomplish something that if you were just by yourself, you wouldn't be able to do, right? Yeah, totally understand. I'm going to, I'm going to. I'm going to, before we get into the book, I really want to set this up right because I want to dig into the book. Wait, which book yet?

Because I have a question about. The man? The man. Oh, okay. But I want to go over the man too. Yeah, take back your family. There's so much to talk about. So much.

Before we do that, I want to give like a little bit more preface on Jefferson. So number one is I really want to ask a simple question. What was your GPA in high school or college? Do you really want to know? I really want to know. Under two at both of those. I got kicked out of high school, kicked out of middle school. You just didn't apply yourself.

Yeah, got kicked out of college. Because I've been asking you to launch a newsletter for years. He reads the best information. I do like remarting. You're probably the most influential person outside of. I'm not de-influenced. I'll receive that. Out of the Lord.

That means the world. to me. Thank you. And here's why I want to back up before we get into the book is because I think that one of the things that you do incredibly well is you take on, so you are a Christian, you've identified yourself as a Christian author. But what a lot of Christian authors do is they really kind of like, they don't engage with culture. They're like cultures over here and Christianity's over here. It creates a rift where people get funneled into the church and then they have no impact almost with the outside world where that's just not how it should be. That's not even what Jesus would want, right? And I think what you've really inspired me to do is, lean into different topics and say, okay, well, here's what this author from the New York Times or the Atlantic is going to say about this, but here's how I'm going to engage with it from my worldview as a believer. 100% Jesus being real. And so I think you do that so incredibly well, but I'm shocked that your GPA was under, too. It was, dude.

Oh, I was getting kicked out. I did freshman year twice. Because you got incredibly well read. I want to ask you about, like, a lot of what you do is like you debunk, you know, like cultural norms. I did get on the SATs, by the way. I just need to support myself. So, you know, there you go, there you go.

So how do you choose, like, the topics that you're going to lean into? Great question. Like with books and what I'm thinking about in that season? When you decided that hustle culture was rampant and it was actually really detrimental, there's a variety of things you could choose in terms of conversations. You've chosen hustle. Yeah. Well, Jesus over religion.

Yeah. And then kind of some, like, young dating engaged stuff for a bit. We wrote that stuff. That's right. That was early marriage for you. Hustle, family, now manhood. Yeah. Okay.

So how do you lean into the topics that you're going to. going to cover. Is it more of a conviction, spirituality thing, or is it based on, I hate to say this, but like, what's trending on Google in the sense that like, this is such a cultural conversation that someone from the church needs to engage in the conversation. I think that's a simple answer, actually, why I surprise you. I honestly write books based on just what I've been personally wrestling at the last two to four years. That makes sense. So it's like I write Jesus of religion because I was wrestling with that. I wrote Love That Last, which is like our relationship book to like kind of young college students when like I was three years out of that.

You know what I mean? And then hustle. Same thing. Like I was kind of pushing myself in my 20. I was like, man, this is not sustainable. I need rhythms and rituals in a spiritual formation-based life. So I wrote that.

And then all of a sudden we have kids running around. And I'm like, what the heck? Like we're like, you know, like how do we meld this team together? Wrote that. It almost like holds you accountable to research and figure it out.

Yes. You know, that's kind of like when I went through my hair loss journey, it was kind of the same thing. Or I was like, you start going down the rabbit hole on it. He started going down. And I'm like,

he can either cry in bed about this or I can become like an expert in scalp health and like figure it out. And how many people can say that, by the way, you know? Experts in scalp health. Yeah. Well, you know. Big time over here. Big time.

Do you feel like you try on all three of the ones, I guess the manhood one is too new to know, but like on the family conversation, on the hustle conversation, do you think that you were early to the pendulum swing backwards, just right time, right place, or kind of late to the game? Good question. Yeah. is because if you're too early, you'll feel that in terms of hate.

Yes, because you'll be speaking. No one agrees with you and sees the pain yet. Right. You wrote to hell with the hustle when people were still in the, I got really lucky though with the pandemic on that one. Yeah. Yeah,

a year later that happened and everyone was like, I mean, that book sales shot. I'm like, I could not have predicted that. Perfect timing. Yeah, yeah. So do you think, like, what,

what have you learned from just the timing of going into these conversations? That's a good question. Because you kind of did it backwards from the like, if people, might be really disagree with you. Again, maybe it's the aid me, like, I don't even consider that. I'm like, let's talk about it. Let's argue right now. I'm down. That's so eight to see now. And I'm not super intense about it. I'm just like, everything's up for conversation. I love that

premise of life. And Alyssa doesn't like that premise of life. A lot of people don't like that premise. She's a nine. So she's just like any conflict. Oh, no. We're an amazing marriage, guys. I swear. Yeah. But no, the eight and the nine is a very intense. They're like opposite. Yeah. It's like they're opposite on conflict. And that's really tough. Really tough. I also think, you know, and I'm really not trying to build you up. I'm trying to kind of identify what's original about you. When it comes to, I'm an original. I see that.

I feel like you're writing about very different conversations at the church. Yeah, I'm trying to. Yeah, I agree with that. And so have you gotten pushed back, you're a Christian author, self-identified, have you gotten pushed back from Christians on any of the topics that you've tackled? Yeah, 100%. I mean, I'm blanking on my subtitle to take back your family because it's like a four-year-old book now or two or three-year-old. Something about the nuclear.

I think about the nuclear family. Yeah, but I basically, I knocked the nuclear family. And that was, that was a, that was a landmine that I kind of threw out there for fun. Oh, I got, I got DMs about that. I'm like, you have to read the book. Exactly. Like, once you read it, it makes total sense. Yeah.

But, uh, but that one, like that stuff for sure. And I definitely stepped on some landmines, but I love it. I love it. I love it. I'm like, actually like, when I'm kind of bored, I'm like, let's just throw some, let's throw some. Let's throw some. Exactly. I love that.

That's awesome. Okay. Let's get in to take back your family. So I want to first... Oh, take back your family. We're going to take back your family and fighting shadows. We're doing all of it, baby.

Oh, that's the one you're talking about. Let's talk about the catalog. Okay, let's go through it all. I'm ready for it. The reason I want to talk about take back your family is it's my favorite book. I haven't read the new one yet. You'll have to record tomorrow's thing that we're doing.

Yep. So it's my favorite book that you've written. It's really impacted the way I view raising my family, developing a team, switching out from father to... The father figure being a babysitter to more of a coach. I'm using that tomorrow with the fellas.

Don't steal my thunder. I want to ask, like, what inspired you to get into that conversation first? Yeah, so that one was, you've met Jeremy. Jeremy and April are, like, our closest mentor friends of ours. And they're just a really unique family. You know, everything you've been even saying about me, I hope aspirationally is true, but of him it's true, like right now. And he's just so out of the box, such an interesting thinker.

But the main thing that really turned the tide is he just, he spent a lot of time in Israel in the Middle East. And it's kind of funny when you just live outside of a certain country that has a very, very particular value set and be like, oh, the rest of the world doesn't really live like this and believe like this with family. And that was really it.

Like that kind of like starts pulling the thread and then that's like it's off to the races. Of like, oh, you keep pulling on that. Meaning he found that US families were very different, very individualistic, didn't have any generational aspect or vision to their, you know, like again, modern day, you go to Israel, you go to the Middle East,

you go to Morocco, wherever, they would in general, if you were to say, hey, tell me about, the word family or paint a picture of the word family or go in your household and show me a picture of your family. Most of them would go to the fireplace and show you literally like a nine generation 172 descendant picture. And you're like, that's just we would not answer. We would literally not answer it like that. You come and you ask America that and it would be like the fireplace picture is literally like the two the two parents, the two kids, a white picket fence, maybe a dog, maybe the kids

got helmets, maybe a homeschool. I don't know. Right. It's just like it's a very different picture. And it's really, there's a lot of subtleties in there, but it's based in consumption and retainment and safety. We have to wrestle with this as parents, meaning the high, like parents in the West think they're doing a very, very, very good job if they keep their kids entertained. Like, we keep them busy. We think that's doing a good job.

And if we keep them safe, like we think that's a paramount value, which it's paramount in the sense of, of course, safety is important. But no one, no coach on a sports team would ever say safety is the goal of why we're all together. It's like a byproduct of just being a healthy team. The mission is the goal, finding clarity on what you're doing together. they're trying to extract roles in different natures of all the kids. And how fun is that, by the way, right?

Like, how fun is that to look at a kid and be like, why did God put you on our team? He must have put you on our team because we had a gap before you showed up. Like, we were missing something on our team before you showed up. Do you realize how, like, life-giving that is to a kid? Right? Some people might think it's pressure, but it's actually the opposite.

It's actually the opposite. There was a really interesting study. I don't think I included this in the book because I found about it after. Psychologist did a bunch of research on kids from zero to 18, on what was really important to them, right? And from zero to five, the most important thing is self-esteem. So like kind of that identity-based, like you are loved, you are loved, you're safe, you're safe, you're safe, what I'm just saying, that's true.

But we think that's zero to 18. We think it's just, and that self-esteem is almost can turn cancerous, right? And they found five to 18, the most important thing is not self-esteem, it's mission, that kids have to have a bigger picture than just their consumption, their entertainment, and their life. And when they have that, they thrive. when they be like, oh, I'm actually here for a reason. Besides just like paying Nintendo Switch and doing all the things

and playing on all the sports teams just for my whatever. And those things are fine. Like, I'm shout out to Super Mario Card. I love Switch. I play Fortnite with my boy and it's like the best memories of my life of my life. But it's, but yeah, it's like, that's really interesting, right? That they actually have clinically found that a kid having a bigger meaning

outside of themselves is the most important thing from 5 to 18. That's really cool. A lot of like Jonathan hates. Yeah. Have you guys read his new book, by the way? No, not yet. Anxious generation. No, I need it.

I've seen it. I've seen it. It's like, I think it got New York Times best seller last month. It's so good. His whole premise is that we are basically raising kids to overprotect them in the world. So we protect them too much.

Like helicopter parenting. Like there's kidnappers everywhere. Don't go outside, basically. When in fact it's never been safer to live literally in like a neighborhood. And we underprotect them online. Give them in the device that has porn, anxiety inducing things, all these crazy websites. And that's like a fascinating premise.

Yeah. One of his main things, solutions to the problem is unsupervised outdoor play. Exactly. And it's just crazy. I'm always like, like, Danny's, we're outside now. And I'm probably extreme, but like, we're outside now. And you're like, turn around. Turn around.

John's like on the house, on the roof. And I'm like, he's like, don't supervise it. That is actually pretty funny. No, but it is crazy. I think that there has been like an over, you know, over focus on like, you know, keeping our kids safe. So how did we get here? Because you write about this a lot in the book. in terms of like the history of how Western culture got to where it's at.

Yeah. You have another question. Yeah. Got them both on. Let's hit a double whammy. Bay of a session before we move on from that, you talk so much about mission for your family. So what is your family's mission? Great question.

So we kind of have, if you go to family teams.com, if you're listening, we have some discovery tools on there for that. I think it's a very malleable in wet cement type of thing you need to identify. Because some people feel, depending on the personality, some people feel very overwhelmed by that of, oh, I need this really clear, pretty distilled sense. I'm overwhelmed. Yeah. And it's like, no, it's a very easy thing to just reverse engineer and work backwards from

what are we good at? Like just add up the gifts and the skills and that's pretty much your mission, right? Like if it's extroverted or if you're hospitable or if you're a businesswoman and a businessman, like you guys are, and then how do we integrate kids into that rather than disintegrate kids to that? It doesn't mean they need to work there and doesn't mean they have to take over. But it's just asking those questions in a really soft way. And then like the momentum starts to take care of itself.

So it should be a long discovery process that takes, at least a couple years to like pay it. And certainly if your kids are seven and under, like you're not really, you're kind of in a paying attention mode, but you're not really getting a ton of clarity on mission for the family yet. It's like a training season.

But are you speaking to them about their mission? Yeah. Well, I don't know. I would say we're using the language at that age. Yeah. And we're just getting out of that age. So now it is really fun to see the kids really step up and use it. Like, okay, I really can see your skill set.

They do say who you are, zero to six is pretty much who you are, at least personality-wise for the rest of your life. That's very interesting. Isn't that interesting? It's so sweet. It's sweet, but also kind of like, oh man, that's a lot of pressure. It's kind of crazy. But it's really sweet because you look at your kids and you're like,

that is their true, their personality. Where's I going with that? So, yes, it's just about paying attention. And when you have young kids, I think there's no pressure. So like what me and Alyssa did, let's, I'll just be technical. Probably five years ago, we do an end of the year summit as a family and married couple of then because the kids were too young. And that's just going to a hotel for a night.

And that's just like finding 10 really good questions online. I have a whole thing now, but I don't want to overwhelm people. How is our year? Where do we use our gifts? Where do we use our skills? What does next year have in front of us? How do we feel like God wired me? How do we feel like God wired you? And there has to be a convergence point of those giftings or else he wouldn't have put us together. And so it's just asking those questions and then kind of trying to write something down. So I would give you, so we have what we call pillars for our mission, which is like seven really, really, really big terms of like hospitality, apprenticeship to Jesus, health, some of these really big things. We just say, we are about these things. These are our mission. And outside of these things, we're not a it. And what's really cool is when you have a clear mission, it also allows you to not have family overwhelm, which is so common nowadays. Because if a choice comes at you, you just go, that's not us. I don't have to sign up for every baseball team, every basketball team, do everything, be the person that helps in the school and do this because our mission's over here. So hospitality is probably the one that's the easiest for the kids to retain because we literally like bet

every last amount of our dollars on like building a compound with a guest house and we host events on it. We let people use it for baby showers and worship. Like our house is used more than I think anyone I've seen used their house. But that bet was because it's what we believe we're here to do. And we have the perfect convergence for our skill set on that. There's some friends we have. I've known them for 10 years. I've never seen the inside of their house.

Yeah. It's like that's not their mission. That's probably us. Except right now I'm here, baby. Yeah, no, no, we played settlers at Catan last night. Yeah, yeah. We're getting better about it. But again, but it doesn't have to be your mission.

See, I love that. That's such an eight thing where it's like, hey, I'm not this. I'm not that. I'm this. and being wholly focused on that. And I'm like, what do you want me to be? You guys want me to cook in the kitchen? I can do it today.

I do think that that is such a strength of an eighth is not feeling this sense of comparison, right? Totally. So I think that we struggle with that a lot where it's like, oh, man, we should be more hospitable or we should be more this. Instead of focusing on our strengths and saying, hey, these are our pillars, we focus on our weakness. Do you find that other families in Western culture struggle with that a lot? Yeah, 100%. And I was at a, again, I think I mentioned earlier, I was at a men's breakfast this morning.

speaking to a bunch of men in this line I said to them that I think applies to what we're talking about. As I said, there's no generalists in the kingdom of God. There's only specialists. And we don't wrestle with that enough. We all want to be generalists. We all want to do everything, do a little bit of everything, be good at a little bit of everything. But like the kingdom of God, at least in the Christian narrative, is specifically using like war language. It's using feasting language, team language.

There's all these different metaphors he uses. And all of those encapsulate like, if it's a feast, everyone brings a different dish, right? If it's a war, you have certain people on the front lines. You have certain people on the cannon. You have certain people on the watchtower. And so it's like, I just wish we would lean into being more understanding that God created you and whoever's listening as a specialist for the kingdom of God. You're wiring your gift set.

And here's the cool part too. It's like you were put in this place in time because God believed that this place and time needed you. That's really encouraging, in my opinion. And so it's like you are a specialist for people and in this war that we're in of good and dark and all that stuff. And so I think just remembering that is really, really important. And yes, I do think family struggle with that, though. I see that a lot with when Stratton was born.

Like, I felt like he was such a, and of course, I mean, Sello was our first, but I feel like he is so different than the rest of our family. Like, he's so joyful and loving and just brings this. And he's only two. But you can tell their personality. And it was like, man, this is like a missing puzzle piece that was finally filled. And like, I already feel that purpose. Yeah, he's like the guy that, like, he comes on all the trips with us because he's the fun guy.

We just have fun. You're going to be like, guys, stop working. We're here to be. And we did that and like still us over there, like organizing her shoes. Yes. And it's just so great. But that's a perfect example of like you guys are paying attention to your kids and you're paying attention to where they can fill these gaps in a really cute way right now.

But I'll, I bet in 10 years it'll be very darn close to what you're saying. I'm like, man, he lightens us up in a way that we really need because we both go hard or whatever. And then her with organization, she can maybe be integrated into the family. There's all these different ways. But it's kind of the sensitivity to be just like pay attention. and ask God to give you a picture of who your kids are and why they're in your family. It lights you up, but it also lights them up. And love your kids for who they are.

Exactly. Not trying to make them something else. I felt a lot of, and it wasn't necessarily my parents, but just like the way I was raised, I always just felt like I wasn't good enough where I had to be this or I had to be that. And it's exhausting. And then I think that insecurity, unfortunately, like, even brought into my 30s. And it's because I think in childhood, I just, you never think you're good enough. Yes.

When it comes to like how we got here as like a Western culture, you write about, about this a lot. What are some of the pivotal moments of how we got here? Of how we got here? I would say there's honestly a lot. The two that are easy for people to understand that kind of can quickly show how we've made some really big leaps with family. The first one would be 1945 to 1960, which is considered the wealthiest 15 years of any country of any period in time. So post-World War II, just like the economy went to a stratosphere that we've never seen before. That's where we got the creation of the middle class being really strong and robust, you know, and all these different types of things. And what the ramification of that

was that sociologists have studied is no one needed each other anymore. This is one thing we don't wrestle with, but like pre-1800, if you literally did not depend on your family team, you would die. It's just that simple. I mean, just you would just die. Like there was no such thing. There was literally no such thing in 1720 of like a single person getting like a job in the city and like sustaining themselves. You would starve to death. Yeah, it was literally starved to death. So it was like an actual need to share resources. And of course, I'm not. not trying to go back there. So I like the influence we have in the Western culture, but it has ramifications. And so that one of like, oh, we don't need in each other anymore. And then what was

really interesting, too, is a lot of people then started moving away from their generational families in post-1960 for that reason because they had enough resources. And then you get to about 1990, we have an economy leg. And everyone's kind of left out in the cold of like, oh, I really wish I was by my family right now, but now we live five states away. That's a whole other thing. But then the big one that really makes a lot of sense of people would be the industrial revolution. Technically, there's like three or four of those. They started at different times. But in general, what the Industrial Revolution did was kind of, as we know, it was an agrarian society that then went to a machine society, an industrialized society,

a machines, extraction, and production at a really high level. And what that did is mainly took the father out of the home, meaning like it changed fundamentally the home. The home in 1750 was you were a blacksmith family, you were a farmer, you were whatever, and your whole home had kind of this organism level relation to each other. kids were certainly contributors and like employees of that company, not like just consumers. Now again, I'm not arguing for child labor,

but that's just true. And that's why they actually had a lot of kids in it's because they needed more workers. But that was like a dance that was happening. And here's another way to put it. The economic engine of the home, or sorry, of the man was in the home. Or the family was in the home. Meaning like, and in a capitalistic society, this is just by default, we get most of our meaning from our work.

That's fine. That's true. but what happens when you rip that out of the home, now there's no missional identity left for that family except to be safe, consume, and be entertained. And so that was a huge shift that just like happened that we never wrestled with. Now I'm not saying, again, that we all need to go home and work.

I work away from home. I'm traveling right now. There's a variations to that. But I think, and Wendell Berry talks about this in a lot of his poems, that you know, that you can have an industrialized job that you need to bring an agrarian spirit to, and you can have an agrarian job

that actually has an industrialized spirit. So he's not saying it's the actual. job. It's like the spirit of like integration and like actually tilling the land in a metaphorical way, integrating your kids in a certain way, tapping them in and their gifts and skills. So those would be, there's a lot more, but like those are two very, very big historical moments that like just family looks really different now. One thing I want you to touch on, I think is going to give you your moment. Uh-oh. No pressure. No pressure. No pressure. Listener is you talk a lot about how this is really stretched females in the home really thin because as they went back out to work.

So speak to that. You talk about it. Yeah. Well, So I'll reference Wendell Berry again. If you're listening to this and you have 15 minutes, I think one of the greatest essays of the 1900s is an essay by Wendell Berry called Feminism, the Body, and the Machine. And he's just a brilliant poetic thinker that's kind of deep. It might be, it's amazing.

I like cited like seven times in my book. But he has one really interesting rhetorical question in there where, again, this is a very prophetic thing he's saying. So I'm not saying I'm arguing for this, but it just makes you think. Is he basically is arguing that like the industrialization of all of our work is bad. It kind of has made us cogs in the wheel. And we like don't do work that's really.

meaningful anymore, right? We're just in an office, tapping on a keyboard. We don't know what we're doing. And it's just at the extraction of the person at the top to make all the money. Whatever. You can agree with that. I disagree with that. But he basically says, he goes, men have been doing that for 100 years. And he's like, and now women are chasing that. And he basically says, his line is, why would you chase the same slavery that the men are in? Like, you have shackles on. Why would you chase their slavery? That's really interesting to think about that, like, most women see that I want to go work. I want to go do my thing as like a proliferation of themselves. when his argument is actually like,

I think both the man and the woman are wrong, at least in trying to do that. I don't totally agree. I just think it's really interesting to think about. So what I would say is this. You remember about the Tradwife? Huh? Oh, 100%.

Yeah, yeah. Sourdough baking. Yeah, 100%. It's kind of back, baby. But I think that's why. I think that's why. Well, the Atlantic did an article on this from like a non-Christian perspective,

and basically it was on the Tradwife. It was a Tradwife critique. But they kind of like, they kind of like admitted that why it's compelling. And they basically said, At the end of the day, the mom still has to come home and do the work. So it's like, it's not like, it's hard. Yeah.

It's hard to do it. Like, she's got to do this. Like, it almost said like now she's got to do everything. And now she's got to film herself too. Exactly. I mean, it's a lot. So I would say the way I would articulate this is, again, back in that pre-industrialized version of a family, there was a team-oriented nature of the home, right?

The family, like, not only was the mom and the dad working in a really beautiful dance, but like what people don't realize, and this is certainly all over the actual scriptures because this is the ancient near east in the first century. There was like 20 people in the family working in the home. So it's like, and so we, we get these visions of that of like, oh, they're, making bread and doing all these things and they have cattle and all this stuff. It's like they did, but they also had 20 people in the home helping them. Yeah. And now we kind of like extract that out and say, oh yeah, just, Danny, it's your job to do all the things with no help and no grandparents and no things. And I know you guys integrate your grandparents in an awesome way. I mean, your parents in an

awesome way, the kids' grandparents. But it's like, yeah, it's like, so. the biggest, the person who has been hit the most from the familial changes the last 100 years has been the woman. And I actually think they need to and go out and work if they want to and use their skill set and all those things. But we have to reckon with what solutions do we have as a family to make sure that both the husband and the wife are supported. And they're both working in a sustainable way and using their gifts in a sustainable way. So tomorrow you're going to be meeting with a bunch of Instagram husbands. Let's go, baby. Can you tell more like for people that are listening with that?

So Jefferson was rolling through, and so I pulled all of the Dallas, like, Instagram husbands together, and we're doing like a little informal secret society mastermind. Let's go. I'm going to wear my skulls jacket. The reason I thought it was so cool to bring you through, and I think the, you know, I don't really do things like this, but I felt really called to do it because I felt, you know, in our situations, like our wives are the ones who went out to work, right? And a lot of the struggle that a lot of these guys have is very early on when they switch over to this

industry, they lose that identity that they're raised with of being the provider. And it's a huge ego hit. And we've been doing this together for six years. So I'm kind of, I went through it. I'm evolved out of it. And so I try and help coach a lot of the guys that are going through it because it's like, hey, you need to see this as like a team thing, not as a, this is what it's going to my identity.

100%. Because it, you know, there's nothing wrong with like Danny or any of these wives being on the internet and doing a job that they love and they're passionate about. but it does require us to come more into the home. 100%. To be more hands on with the kids. And I think that where this industry creates a lot of friction with marriages is that. 100%.

Because the men... Well, on the roles, they think they have to play in traditional roles. And that's why... Let's talk about this. This is fun. This is actually in my new book. So we can go, we can jump into it. Yeah, this is perfect.

The oversimplification of roles of what is a man as a provider going out and it should look like XYZ and a woman should be trad wife, X, Y, Z. Totally. They're too oversimplified in this, you know. Talk about this. This is fun conversation. Man, you're going to go into your new book. I don't have, sorry, I'm just psyched. I'll go, you'll go.

Okay, okay, bring that one back to me. Bring that one back to me. So what I'm bringing it back to me in five minutes. So what I want to do is I want to park on that for a moment. Super excited you're coming tomorrow. I want, so you talk to us about the Western families. When Jeremy and you go to Israel. Yeah.

You do a really good job of pulling inspiration from Jewish families, from Muslim families and talking about, different cultures and their family systems and structures, paint us a picture of what families outside of the West look like. What could be the ideal for someone who's listening and says, hey, this family thing isn't working for me. What could it look like for a new family? Well, I think the really good place to start is a really anywhere outside of the West tends to have just a lot longer memory of family, both in the past and in the future. So like when they think of what they're doing, they see themselves as like links in the chain for like a 500 year plus.

Like, they really do. And then if you were to ask a Jewish person, who's your great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great, who would they say? All of them now, globally. They'd all say, Abraham. That's kind of wild that, like, a collective group of people would all point to the same grandfather. That's, would, like, you're, and even God, think about this.

When God wants to communicate himself to us, I mean, sorry, to the Israelites and to him, to his people in the scriptures, his descriptor. This is wild to me, actually. His description, his descriptor, his descriptor is a multi-generational family God. He says, I'm the God of what? Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That's wild to me that from his mouth, he's saying, hey, I want to give you my name.

I want to let you know who I am. And he could have chose any other descriptors. I'm the God of love or whatever. His actual name is I'm the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Three generations of dead people, I want to tie myself to you because I believe in these really long visions. Christians could never even come close to doing that. We'd be like the God of, I don't know, I don't care, and I'd never met them.

Yeah. That's wild. Yeah. Right? Now, of course, that's really difficult in. in the Western world where we don't have that memory, don't have that record keeping. We don't think like that.

But I think it should inspire us to just think in a long way. And it should take the pressure off. Here's what I mean by this. If you think that you have to do everything right and just nail it as a parent and just crushed life right until you send your kids off at 18, that's a lot of pressure, right? But if you actually believe that just like this missional,

generational thing, even though it's going to change in stages as they become literal adults, goes till for like 100 years, goes for 150 years, and it's more like you taking a football and carrying it down the field and then passing it one generation,

passing it one generation. You know, JFK, I mean, not JFK, excuse me, the Rockefellers would be a really good example of this. Oh, you always pull from this elite family. And I love it. They're all perfect metaphors for the spiritual nature of what I'm saying. Because, of course, their versions of all this,

what I'm about to say is wealth and money and oil. But it's metaphor for like spiritual legacy. So everything I'm about to say, take it as a spiritual legacy thing. But the Rockefellers are a great example. John Rockefeller was actually a really good dad. He only had one son, and certainly back then, that was kind of your line gets passed through the sun.

He obviously was the richest person in the world, thanks to oil at that time. He was the Elon Musk of the day. And so he has all this wealth. And because when people hear me say what I just said, they go, oh, like, it's all these clones of just like the next generation doing the exact same thing and the exact same thing. And there's no freedom of individualism. That's always what people are thinking. But it's like he was a really good example of, no, it's about paying attention to your

kids and just passing the resources, the legacy and the teaching so that they can do their mission and extend the family mission and grow it. So his thing was oil and oil was, and when he was dying, I mean, think about the pressure, by the way, like he easily could have felt a lot of pressure to like pass the business. Like, man, this thing's worth billions of dollars and it's going to sink if no one else takes it. And I only have one son. And if he doesn't take standard oil, that's what it was called, then like, it goes bankrupt. I don't know, right? Just goes into the crapper, you know, just goes into the trash. And so, like, he had to feel that pressure. but he was sensitive enough to a son.

His son was a huge, generous person and really cared from like a philanthropic standpoint. And so his son only cared about basically like blessing people and wanting to like build libraries, build hospitals, build schools and all these things, which is not what oil does. Right.

And so he just paid attention enough to his son that he basically gave the son the money and that blessing of like, hey, your mission is clearly you want to build hospitals, build schools, build libraries. So take the resources that I've built.

I've used my whole life as taking the football down the field, give it to you. Now in your own way, you've discovered, your own calling, and I want you to utilize that for the next generation. And if you know the Rockett Fillers today, they're still a healthy family, they still meet, have crazy family meetings that are fun to research. They document online how they do their family meetings. It's

crazy. And who can vote and who's worth what votes, and it's wild. Can you tell us a little bit about it? Well, it's just like they're, it's really hard, meaning like you, you're in the family, but you don't get a seat at the table for voting on certain things until you've proved it. Like, with your integrity, your character and like a couple different like benchmarks you have to show. But now they're 100% philanthropic. Like, they're, They, since, this is like 1800s, since the 1800s, they've been the most philanthropic family that's ever lived. So it's like, because the senior had enough wisdom to like open up the box and just say, I trust the next generation's calling, but I'm going to pass down what I have. They are now who they are most famously.

Like, they're not known for oil. They're known for philanthropy. And so I just think that's a really good example spiritually of like generationally God gives visions and missions that are way longer than your life for a city, for Dallas, for Hawaii, for Franklin, that he wants these. places to look a certain way. He wants them to be disciples a certain way. He wants them to he wants the church to be built up in a certain way. And like that doesn't happen in five minutes. So like we actually need the generations for that to be true.

So what about families out there who are listening this and saying oh man you know I already moved five states away from my upstream you know the grandparents of my children? Or maybe I don't have my parents passed away. You know what do you say to

you're such a proponent of multi-generational like living and your parents being involved. but what if you don't... Great question. So here's the fun part that I haven't gotten to. The New Testament makes a pretty significant leap

from everything I've just said. It's absolutely true everything I've said, but it adds another layer of spiritual family. So it's very clear in Acts that like Jesus came to make a new family. Like a new family.

Now, again, we can read that in the West and see it so strongly as like, oh, throw away old family. I think it's more of just like adding another layer to what's true. And so I know plenty of people where, man,

their parents are toxic, their parents are unhealthy, well, there's certain things that are not strong, or they're moved away, or they've passed away. And they're living so amazingly generationally with mission and blessing and goodness with like spiritual parents, right? Excuse me, like people that are discipling them and people that they're learning under and people that they're mentored by. And then they're passing that down.

Like, there's definitely a Paul and Timothy relationship, not just between men that we see in the New Testament, like Paul and Timothy, but family-wise. Like, families are meant to embed, to kind of mesh together in a city. and I think spiritually that is 100% true that God's coming to make a new family and if you love Jesus, you're in the new family

and everything I just said is true spiritually. You know, I mean the generational stuff and building a church and being part of a community and stuff like that. So cool. You guys are, this is the best interview ever by the way. One more question on this topic. I'm being quiet because I'm so excited

about the new book. Trust me. I'm trying to get into segue. I'm giving all the value that is my test run. I know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I need to bring value to the audience.

Okay. It's hard. One of the most impressive things that you've taught me about outside of Western culture families is rhythms in the home. Totally. A lot of people, when I first started reading your book and hearing from you and Jeremy, I was like, Rhythms. What does that mean? Yeah. And I would like for you to kind of unpack the importance of rhythms, what you see rhythms, meaning and looking like in a family, and maybe some practical tips on establishing rhythms.

Great. Great question. Um, where should I start with this? Yeah, maybe there are unique things that your family does that like no one else. Yeah, and there should be both. Yeah, unique ones. Finding rhythms in the context of family because I think we all know what the word rhythm means, but what does that mean to you?

Yeah, well, the technical definition is like music. It's a cadence that something operates in a very particular way. Um, it's clear that, again, from the scriptures, the ancient and even people outside of in the ancient world outside of the scriptures would have thought this, that there is rhythm to like every part of how we see calendar, the day, right? sun up, sundown, right? The week, the month, the year, like, you can go on and on. There's clearly rhythm. And again, everyone else pre-modern society, pre-electricity, like, submitted to these things is actually like, they're different, right? Like, do you know you're not supposed to be able to

buy a tomato in January and in June? They're not, they grow certain times of the year. But we live in this place called America, they can just grow them in a lab and so we can eat them. Like, we're, like, we're so anti-rhythmic because we are so addicted to controlling our environment and making what we want to be true at any moment in time that we don't like rhythms. Because they're limiting, but really beneficial. Just like music, right? Like, like when you're dancing at a wedding, you, it rhythm will force you,

you have to dance in beat, right? Hopefully, unless you're a white guy that can't do it or something like that. Yeah, exactly. Right. Like, you're not dancing well if you're not dancing in rhythm. That's like an objective fact. But once you're dancing in the rhythm, you can pick 100 different dance moves.

Do you seem like the freedom, but the submission? So one interesting thing, too, by the way, is the week is the superpower rhythm, 100%. The week is like a powerful tool that we don't realize as a powerful tool. And think about this too, why do we even honor a week? Like it's really weird that we honor seven days.

Why do we honor a day? There's a very clear external reality. Can you guys guess? Why do we, why do we? White and dark? Exactly. Sunup, sundown, nailed it. Okay, month.

Why do we, what's a month measured by? That one's tougher. The moon. Oh, okay. So the lunar, yeah, the lunar cycles, what sets a month. Okay. And then you guys will get this one, hopefully.

How do we measure a year? Why do we, why do we know it's a year? Oh gosh. One trip around the moon, sun. Claire, she got it. She got it. I'd like to thank my fifth grade teacher. Yes.

This come from the 1.8 GPA, baby. Now, the hardest question. How do we measure a week? In the Bible? Yeah. I mean, nailed it absolutely. There's no external reality, which is really interesting. There's no scientific external reality why we honor a week.

That's kind of wild. But yet, we've proven, like, French Revolution tried to do a 10-day week, just failed miserably. Communist Russia tried to do a five-day week, which you think would be better because it's shorter, failed miserably. So it's like we're created for this six-and-one, this six-and-one, this work-and-rest rhythm, right? And if you don't submit to it, it's to your detriment. Now, I think it's a superpower for a family. There's, you know, there's other rhythms, whether it can be personally, spiritual formation,

prayer, et cetera. it can be fun pizza day, pizza night. But here's the quickest thing I would say to kind of answer your question. After explaining all that. Rhythms, like, are identity shaping moments and days and, like, things in your week. So think about that. They're identity shaping things. Like, they're not routine.

They're not, I time I shoot. That's not a rhythm. A rhythm is like an identity shaping behavior. Like Shabbat dinner. Exactly. Sabbath would be a perfect example for us. And we built up to it, but it's a huge 20-hour thing in our household we've been doing for a decade.

The in-laws come over. we ask them stories, we sing a song, we light a candle, we show pictures, we turn off my phone the next day, we don't work, we swim, we play, like, and all of a sudden we leave that one day and we are so full right now of like goodness and life and just like family love, right? So it like has shaped our identity. And you can do that in small ways too in the week and whatever it is. Like traditions that you build. Yes, exactly. Traditions is a really good replacement for like rhythms. I think they can just even be smaller, like, you know, like little tiny things you do in the morning. her. So another one is every single morning, me and the kids do this little prayer. We've been doing it for

five years. Can I say it real quick? So I tell the kids to put their hands out in front of them and I say, receive after me. And then the prayer is, I'm not what I do. And they say it. I'm not what I have. I'm not what other people say about me. I'm the beloved of God. It's who I am. No one can take it from me. I don't have to worry. I don't have to hurry. I can trust my friend Jesus and share his love with the world. And it's a repeat after me. So I say it, they say it, they say it. If you do that every single day, I mean, that's 30 seconds. But if that's going to be 20 years in their body, and I do this fun thing where I give them like an M&M at the end because I read the Psalm where it's like the law of the Lord is like honey on my lips and honey was just like way messy. I was like, let's just do the American version of that.

So I just toss an M&M in their mouth. But think about this though. So again, the Jewish people are so tactile with their rhythms and that matters. The West is so about the intellect. We just think if we think the right thing it's going to form us. Thinking the right thing doesn't form you. Like letting real things enter into your five senses forms you. right to the point of even like you know let's say my kids are maybe in a really wayward bad season in

their 20s they're not making really healthy decisions and they're on road trip with friends and maybe they're party and maybe they got drunk I don't know all these bad decisions it can happen and all of a sudden they're on up they're on a road trip and they stop at a gas station and they go to get snacks and they see picho rings which are my favorite and the next to it they see m&Ms if they see m&Ms what do you think they're going to think like it'll be so visceral in their body because they've done this prayer for 20 years they'll just start saying it in the middle of 7-11 I'm like that's the power of like little and rhythms small or large. And it's really, really important because that's the glue of a family.

I love that. It's so funny. It's, you know, Jewish culture. Danny grew up around like a lot of Jewish families. Oh, yeah. She speaks about this a lot. There was like every Friday. I thought she was about to say,

I thought he's about English or something. I was amazing. Let's go. That's impressive. I mean, all my friends are Jewish. I know you speak Spanish too? Yeah. Try like, you know.

No, that's literally like I can say. I have been to 18 bar bat mitzvahs. Dang. Yeah. That's legit. Yeah. So it's cool. Like she's,

she's talked a lot about the rhythms that her friends experience, like they would go home on Friday's first of a dinner. And it was like such a important piece of like the family culture. Did you go to Israel and Friday night? It's really weird. A country shuts down. Friday night to Saturday, it's just like nothing is open.

Yeah. There's no cars on the road. There's only one group in the West that I give credit. Yeah. I tell you this all the time. The Mormons. Oh, strong. Yeah.

Strong. Strong. Strong. Strong formation. Heologically, we have some disagreements on the family. No, but here's thing. In this mastermind I planned, I had Stephen Houghton, who's Mormon, come and I said, hey, listen, I don't want to get into it.

He's coming tomorrow? Yeah, he's coming tomorrow. Shout out to Stephen. He's, uh, I was like, listen, I went up to him. I was like, listen, I mean, he's actually going to love my talk. Very sincerely, I was like, I do not want to talk theology with you, but I want you to come and I want you to teach us everything that you know about like Mormon culture and what you guys do in terms of traditions.

Totally. Because they've mastered the family. They really have. And he was telling me that like even his dad. would have a theme song for the family. Yes. And if you meet this family, the Hones, they're the most positive people.

Yes. You can't make them sad. Yes. And I asked him, the Mormon superpower. I was like, why is this? And he was like,

well, you know, we always had like a pump up song every morning before we went to school. Yeah. I forgot his, his chamber. But yeah, it's like a little prayer thing.

Yeah. It just embeds in your soul. Yeah. So it's like, I'm so excited for him to share things. I love that. They dominate too. Yes.

I just want to give him. Yeah. When you do, they dominate. When they do, and the Mormons have such an amazing vision of like discipleship and formation. And then when you're 18, a 16 year old boy, it's mandatory that they basically go to like a Mormon level seminary before school, before high school. And I remember seeing, I wait a lot of Mormons in my high school and they would always have to go to the Mormon school across the church, across the school, across the street from the school at like 6 to 7 a.m. And it's like, and then obviously they have to do the mission that's just mandatory. Wow.

And it's like when you, when you hold people to a really high caliber, it's crazy how deeply formative it is. Yeah. Okay, we've been talking about family quite a bit. Let's talk about men. Yeah, I want to transition to your next book. Perfect. Yeah. Dany can ask all the questions about men. Perfect.

There's some questions. So you go ahead. Yeah. Well, okay. First of all, you just talk about your new book. Yeah. Oh, okay, done. Tell us about it.

Fighting shadows. And how you got to this topic. Yeah, so fighting shadows. I really do like the title. It's a central metaphor we use throughout the whole book, that there's seven dominant shadows that are kind of like lurking on a man's heart. We got it from the story in the gospels where, Jesus is talking to Peter

who Catholics believe as the first pope, who I just believe was an amazing disciple. And he's talking to Peter. Let's get in that. I know, right? Is Peter the first pope?

One billion people are going to disagree. Literally, that's the number of Catholics on earth so that many people are going to disagree with me. Shout out to Martin Luther. But anyways, okay. That was a Protestant Reformation joke. Anyone? Okay.

No, that bombed in the room. Bombed in the room. I'm just trying to keep the morning. Thank you. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So where was I saying? Oh, yeah.

So it comes from. in the story where Jesus says to Peter, this is kind of a wild conversation. He looks at Peter and he says, Satan has asked to sift you like wheat. Like, like, it's basically like Jesus and Satan have had a private conversation and Jesus lets Peter know about it. And he goes, Satan has asked to sift you like wheat, which basically just means like destroy you, rip you apart at every fabric of your being. That's insane, by the way. It's really scary. Not to be said about me. Yeah, me either. But he said that about Peter. And then Jesus says, but, but I have prayed that your faith will not fail. And that word fail in the Greek is the word eclapos, which is literally the same

Greek word for eclipse. It's where we get the word eclipse. And it's funny. We wrote this book before the famous eclipse. We wrote this book like two years ago. And then last month we had the famous eclipse. But what's an eclipse? It's where like, it's where something that is technically smaller than the light. Like it's not as big and it's not as powerful. It's just closer to your face that it blocks out all of the light. It kind of comes in front of you and you no longer see the light. And think about this, by the way, in ancient civilization, when they saw an eclipse, they probably would have thought like apocalypse. It only last five minutes. But then it's like is our world ending. It's dark at lunch. Yeah. You know I mean? And like that is kind of like the spirit and the feel of what we're

talking about with this book. There's seven dominant lies. I don't have a memorized yet, but it's like lust, ambition, futility, apathy and a few more. And I think those are the things that are coming between men of like not only seeing Jesus, but seeing their full self, like seeing who they're meant to be, who they're created to be. And it's too close to their eyes. And so the book is basically trying to like address those and then try to show them how to get those out of the way so they can see who they're truly created to be. And to make this like more relatable to like our predominantly female audience. Like you know, you got brothers, you got husbands. You got fathers. Jess came onto the podcast and Brittany as well. They were both on love as well. And both of them we talked to.

I heard that's a banger show by the way. Is it good? I've never seen it. It's so good. Netflix prime. In the last episode you have to watch it. Netflix, right? Yeah, it's Netflix. I just start seeing a pop. I'm like, I need to. Okay. Yeah. It's so good. But they came onto the podcast. And they were talking about the dating scene in Charlotte where they lived before that. And this is kind of a reoccurring theme. We have a lot of females that work at Divi. And it's like when they talk about dating men. Dude, guys just suck today.

They suck. And it's so fascinating because it seems like it was like okay. And then it just. Totally. Right. And now there's a huge consumer culture when it comes to dating apps. Like it's really, they're not really strong in their values. There's a lot of apathy.

They game all day. Yeah. these are the types of things that you are trying to address an attack in the book, right? Yeah, 100%. And I think you alluded to the perfect point. It's like, even if you're a 99% females listening, we are in an interweb of human relationships and half of this world as men. And it's, you had to, there had to be one man and a woman to make you.

So you're here because of a man. You might have brothers. You certainly have coworkers. Like, it's, you need, women need to be thinking about men, their psychology, their lies, their idols, and vice versa. We need to be thinking about how to serve. women how to think about them. What are their problems? What are the pressures they're under? How can we make sure that they don't feel like that? And so yeah, it's absolutely that and deeply important.

So what happened? So what happened to men? Good question. You gave us the history of the family. What happened to me? Yeah. I have man. I think a lot of things have happened to men. Portnight. Yes. I mean, I'm also a controlled disciplined man at 34. And if you're wasting your life at 27, get off right now. I would say, oh man, that one's a hard to answer because it's so, there's so many reasons. Certainly I would say the book, if you want the deep reasons. I would say there's a couple different things. Let's actually jump even back to your conversation. We may go to this question next of kind of the roles and some of that stuff.

Yeah. Because that was one of the things that's gotten really difficult and why I actually feel for a lot of men is because they feel like they've been usurped and not in the sense of like that women are taking their jobs, not at all. I just mean like you said a good thing. You were like they feel like their job is to be a provider. We've been told that for a long time. And then all of a sudden it's like, well, everyone can provide.

Anyone can provide. Right? Just own a business. run a business, do a thing, have a job. So what's your value now? Exactly. And so that is a really big one. That's not the only one, but that's a very large one.

And that's what we talk about in the apathy chapter, is that when men feel like they're not needed, which certainly non-Christian secular culture is pushing that. And certainly is even saying, you guys, men are evil. Men are the, like, men are like the problem with everything. Everything can be blamed on men, certainly if they're white. And you know what I mean? And it's like, that's kind of the scapegoat to everything right now.

And then, yeah, just the fact that we don't, they don't, men don't understand. understand like, you know, oh, of course in 1800, we were the only one that could swing a hammer to build that road. Like, you know what I mean? But now it's like, it's software-based work and computers. So that is, there's many reasons, but that is a real one that like men's identity around work has gotten deeply reshuffled. And I don't think that's for the wrong. It's just like, they need to understand what has happened. If that makes sense. Is that worldwide because of AI and software? Is that just a- I would say a little bit, but I would say more of a Western problem, Australia, UK, kind of first world developed countries are more the ones that no longer

are like super based in manual labor, even though, by the way, there's millions and millions of blue-colored men in America that, like, undergird this whole country. They're like undergird everything. You know what I mean? The roads, the tunnels, the water, everything. So, yeah.

Do you think a lot of them are not doing certain jobs at home because there's also like a stigma to them, like maybe taking care of the kids or is it more about their ego? So let's talk about the role thing for an interesting. This is an interesting conversation that I'm starting to even think about more even since I've finalized the book, even though we talk about it in there. Historically,

most, most, most cultures have defined men and women. Like, what does it mean to be a man? What does it mean to be a woman? Not with roles, but with virtues, which is really interesting, right? So like, you know, and again, you know, and we can talk about why this got interesting, but whether that's, you know, courage would have tended to be historically, a predominantly male virtue, even though, of course, females can be courageous.

Nurturing would have been tended to be a very dominant female virtue, even though, of course, a male can be nurturing. But we flipped it to roles, seeing being a man as the worker. being a woman is the stay-at-home person. And I think that's not right. I think that's to the detriment of actually our society because what happens is those are way more insecure. Like, okay, well, like what happens when the woman's providing and you're not? You know, you can still be courageous. You can still be loving and kind and have virtue. But like when we concentrate, when we define men and women based on their roles, even though the Bible has a lot to say about that,

but I don't think it's the dominant definition, it really messes with people because roles are actually really fragile. Okay, so it's, okay, so one of the dominant roles is to be a woman is you need to be a mom. Well, what if you're single? What if you can't have children? What if it's like a 10 years of suffering? And you know what I mean? Like, are you just not a woman? That's of course ridiculous. Of course you're a woman. Right. And so it's like, I think re, one of my arguments is rebasing being a male and being a female in the virtues is a really interesting conversation. I have more thoughts on that. But do you guys have any thoughts to that or anything you want to respond to that? I would keep going. Yeah, what do you mean virtues? So like, virtues would be like, there's a

couple different ways to define it. Aristotle, I believe, had the four cardinals, virtues, which would be prudence, love. I'm blanking on the other two. But there's also, like, a lot of things. It's basically descriptors of like, you know, courageous, loving, kind, nurturing, strong, like these, these like prudent-based virtues, descriptors that are good for society to have. Like, why you do what you do, essentially? Yeah, like. And then, but like, it's not your role. It's not what you're doing, but your virtues are like what you stand for. So it. So here's a better way to put they're not you personally. Virtues are external realities. Does that make sense? Okay. So like courage is an external reality that like that is a virtue that we should all aspire to.

Love is a virtue that we should all aspire to. Now, now what's interesting is I absolutely believe this anthropologically that like male and women, male and female's virtues overlap. So it's not like here's male ones, here's female ones, they never touch. Like I said, a male can, I mean, a female could be courageous. Yeah. Here's an interesting conversation too. I just read this. I wish I would have to put this in the book. There was a really interesting, because here's what happened. The reason we changed from defining men and women from a virtue-based definition to a role-based definition is because as kind of the intellect and some of the modern societies started thinking in a particular way,

one of the biggest things people would say is if I say being a man is courageous, what's your natural kind of like rebuttal to that. I mean, being a man is to be courageous. I've kind of already alluded to what the rebuttal is. But it's like, well, a woman can be too. Yeah, yeah. Right? That's like the natural rebuttal.

And so then what most people have said is like, oh, they're right, I guess that does not what it means to be a man. Let's throw it off and let's base it in the roles. Okay. But here's what's interesting, I think it was a Catholic theologian I was reading. He had a really good point. He's like, of course, and I'm blanking on all of me. He has a list of like 10 male virtues, 10 female virtues. But he says, of course a female can be courageous. But here's what's interesting. Only a man will be judged on if he's not. That's what shows it to be a male virtue. Does that make sense? Yes. That's very fascinating. And you could take the reverse with nurturing, right? Like a man absolutely can and should be nurturing.

but only a female will be judged if she's not. That's so true. Isn't that wild to think about? I'm like, pissed. I didn't read that till after the book. That is so true. But it's real. And so that's a really good way to define it of like,

there is real male and female virtues. They overlap. They can be true of both. But we have to ask almost in a simple way, which ones are suggested and which ones are mandatory for that particular sex. Okay. And how does that play into the crisis of what they're going through in American?

Well, I think that's what I alluded to earlier of just like, that's just where we're at sociologically. So then we, so we've made a big shift to defining it in, in roles. And I just think that's a really insecure thing. Because like I said, you're like,

oh, you're not the provider anymore. Well, I guess you're not a good man. Or you're not, you can't have kids. You're not a good woman. Whatever these things,

these lies that we throw up men and women. So what would you say to the men, maybe that you're going to meet tomorrow that don't feel valued or they don't feel important anymore because their wives are the breadwinners. And they are having to step up as more nurturing with their kids. They're having to, you know, play some of the quote unquote roles totally of the household that the female is or what we were raised

to believe is totally and to be totally honest like and i'm not just talking about the men tomorrow but like i know a lot of the mommy bloggers in the space and i know a lot of the husbands are basically like what you would call a stay-at-home dad these days and they will not publish that like in fact sometimes they maybe used to be police officers or firefighters or whatever it is and they will hide the fact that they still like are, you know, saying that they're in that profession, but they're so scared to announce that they don't work anymore. Because what they're doing at home, obviously, is so much work. It is the hardest work. I know the moms are like, yeah, it's a lot harder than you thought it was. Exactly. Yeah, but yeah, so what would you say to them? I think I would go back to

what we talked about a little bit ago with the team stuff. That's where the team dynamic is really helpful. Because if you're basing it in individual callings, even though we all have individual callings, but if you're ultimately basing an individual callings, then it gets really fragile. But if you realize, okay, you know, just like a sports team, just like a business team, we're going to have this team that's going to be malleable over the years, right? The CEO is going to swap out in five years, and maybe the CEO is going to take over, and maybe this employee is going to be promoted, and maybe this person is going to move to this division. And it's like most people, because they have, in those places, maybe it could still some but times

be hard to do those job transitions. It's not nearly as hard in an identity way as the family one we're talking. about like when men have to like go stay at home, et cetera. And I think it's because they have missional agreement. When you have missional agreement, you're down for whatever. Yeah. Doesn't make sense? It's like we, me and you, plus the kids are doing this thing. Yeah. And we're meant to do it. We're wired to do it. We're called to do it. So I will do this as my role. Yeah. I mean, if I can just harp on Dway, he does that so well. Like I think at first whenever you started working with me, you're bragging on me. Oh my God. Oh my God. I'm going to you guys. I'll just, let you guys go real

quick, but he does it still want. I know at first, whenever we started working together, it was really scary. But, like, from a woman's perspective, like, when a man does step up and, like, he's always, he's been malleable. Like, the times whenever I have to go off and I have to do an interview, I have to go to L.A., whatever, and he's staying home with the kids, you know, helping Stella out, bake cookies, whatever it is. Like, from a woman's perspective, I'm like, oh, my gosh, that's so hot.

The fact that he doesn't care and he doesn't put these, like, rolls. He's not insecure about it. Like, he just owns it. And I feel like most wives are probably like, like, love that. Yeah. It's so crazy because like the, um, all the kind of like mindsets that you've shaped into me has even like, uh, helped me decide what roles I need to take professionally. Yeah.

Knowing that my number one role is as a father and a team and a father, a nurture. And I don't see it as like stay at home dad. I'm like, no, this is our team. You're leading. Yeah. Yeah. Like that's where I'm at. And I would say that I was going to brag on, you know, you and us on for is like,

I think that. We have always said we. And I don't think it's something we talked about. It just happened. It's always been like if Danny's in an interview with Ulta or getting interviewed by Vogue or something, she is always saying like we, whether we is referring to Divi and her team or Danny and I in our marriage. And I think that just that team mentality that we have always had has been a huge. I might be the only one in the real, but I'm like, we made that.

Like we did it. You know. Where did you guys get that from? How do you guys like that? Was it like that when you guys start dating? Was it conversations? Was it you feel like it was from both of your guys as families growing up? That's just really interesting because I really love it.

I've always valued collaboration. Like I think I just know for a fact that some like other people are better at what I'm bad at. I just feel like I need them. Like I honestly, even with this podcast, I'm like it's a wee effort. And so. I think for me it was like dying to the ego. Like the first year we work together, you know, and I tell the story all the time, I'll just skip over it.

But it's like the first year that we worked together, I went from like holding this title. this role as like I'm the chief marketing officer of this tech company. To just doing what needs to be done. To our parents being like, okay, so like my daughter's going to be providing? It was just like a weird thing. And so he was completely ego crushing. And you're like, yeah, I got a sugar mama baby.

Let's go. No, that's not how I adopted. I would avoid social situations and parties because I wanted to avoid that question. What do you do? He was so scared. I was so insecure about it. I was early 20s. That's when it's really important to your identity.

Totally. But going through that ego destruction process, process just helps me understand, okay, like, yeah, I don't have to worry. I almost adopted an enneagram 8 where I was like, I don't give an F what people. Yeah, exactly. Because this is the most important thing that I'm doing for my wife and, you see it bearing fruit. And I do want to just honor you guys. You know, obviously we've hung out. We're friends for a bit, but mostly seen you from afar. Like, you guys have done such a good job with your marriage, with how you guys lead, with how you guys own the businesses. You're doing exactly what you're saying.

I think it's very apparent online that you guys do it very well. And I think it's a huge inspiration. Thank you. So well done. We will receive that. Yeah, well done. We. Yes.

I see what you did there. Okay. Let's wrap up. Your new book's coming. Final thought, 30 seconds. Wait, wait. Can we ask you controversial questions really fast? I'm down.

How like a funny controversial? Like what kind of a chapstick do I use or something? I want to make sure that your book, your new book is highlighted. And then we're going to ask you. Done. Fighting shadows you can find on Amazon, Barnes & Noble. There you go. What's the number one thing that you are teaching men in this book?

Why should a man pick up this book and read it? What is it? I don't think there's one. man on earth who doesn't struggle with one of those seven lies. So it's like you will absolutely find a solution. I wrote half the book, John Tyson wrote the other half who, if you don't know John Tyson, I think one of the smartest and most brilliant minds and thinkers in Christian America today in the nation alive. And that's not, I'm not saying that as I purpl, he's freaking brilliant. He's got an Australian accent, so everything sounds good. But that's what I would say is like there's

something in there. Men are struggling. Men have, whether it's lust, whether it's ambition. There's something eclipsing you. There's something holding you back from your destiny. and your legacy, and I think at least one of those will resonate. Cool. Love it. Okay. Well, they're not too bad. Okay.

So for this next segment. Is it like hot take where you have to say it? Like one word? Kind of, no, not hot take. Like, I just want to ask you. You couldn't do it. Yeah, I couldn't. You could say one word and you give us 700.

It's true. It's true. Yeah, some more trending topics. Do you guys ask everyone these or is it just like? No, it's just you. No, honestly, I want to know your thoughts as a Christian. Okay. You know?

Okay. Okay. Okay, as a, yeah, as a Christian influencer. Okay, so what do you think of the hate Taylor Swift is receiving from Christians? Ooh. He was like, he was ready for like a theological, like, throw-down. Yes, yes. Okay, so this is an interesting one for me because I am a Swifty, love Taylor Swift,

listen to all her music, she's incredible. Now, I think the newest album was, there was a lot of it that was really good, but I think it's the first time I've been like, ugh. Yeah. And here's why. Guilty a sin. Yeah. Yeah.

Here's why. I just feel like she's getting a little cynical. She's cynical. Yeah. But I think it's getting worse. Yeah. And so I'm like, ooh. And I just,

I'm starting to be like, man, she's mid-30s. And it's like, is she, at her platform level and her size, is she communicating to young women that like it's okay to just stay in that, to stay in like a cynical bitters,

I don't know. All that to say, I do love her though and I listen and she's a bob. What do I think about? Now, the whole Christian thing of like people being, she's a witch and all that stuff. He's like, you're all idiots.

Thank you. Just like, it bothers me so much. It bothers me so much when everything, everyone thinks everything's demonic or a witch or a thing and stuff because there actually is real, some real evil stuff out there. And it's like, leave it for the real evil stuff. Yeah, thank you. So that's what I would say. And calling someone demonic or evil is like, it's like a real serious accusation.

Really bad. Really bad. Pretty high. Yeah. Yeah, like I get, because I post her out of a decent amount when I like listen to her music because I like her. And like I said, I have some reservations on the newest one. But yeah, but I'll get DMs about the way.

I'm like, dude. Just like, call. Dude. And I don't even want to imagine your guys' DMs with your guys' platform levels because mine are rough. It's just a dumpster fire. Yours are worse.

We always talk about this like Christian. Yeah, I do get it the worst. And then also because I talk about like semi-deep things that they're always like really get really pissy about. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay, we can kind of cut this because I'm going to like,

that was a good one though. That was a good one. Do we feel the same about Taylor Swift? Is that semi in the same realm? 100%. I think guilty as sin was really my own song. But I agree with you. Like I do feel like she's becoming cynical and kind of

She was a little bit more hardened. And it's like, I want you to become positive and happy again. Just honestly for you. Like for Taylor. Exactly. For her sake. And for her and Travis to bloom and flourish 100%. And like I just need some more Tim McGrath spirit.

Like I miss it. We all do. Tear drops on my guitar. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Come on. Come on. That is so good.

Hold on one. Real hot take. Favorite Taylor Swift album. That's easy for me in 1989. What's yours? 1989 is like just like just like just like. He likes. Okay.

Honestly, I think that. Yeah. I would say love. Okay. Oh. That yours? Yeah, reputation's up there. Reputation, I think we got canceled that year. So that was like such an anthem.

You suffered together with Taylor Swift. No, I literally did. Like, you have no idea. I would just put on Taylor Swift and like herself. Like, look what you made me do. And I just said they're crying. Like, so I think reputation just like, it helped me. Yes, there's a story behind that.

That wins. Yeah. Okay, this, let's see. Let's talk about the church. What do you see as your role in the church? I feel like you don't fit into the pastoral. box. I'm certainly not a pastor. Certainly not a pastor. I mean, the book of Ephesians and some of these other epistles would give very, very clear delineations of like pastor, pastor, apostle, teacher.

There's certain roles. I would say I have apostolic tendencies. Now let me explain that for a second, and why I said that careful is like, I don't think I'm an apostle. And it depends on the denomination in which you believe that. Apostolic tendencies would be someone who's teacher based. And that's, I do try to lean into that. I do want to think and teach and spend most of my life trying to, hopefully serve people with words and teaching. And then an apostolic influence or an apostolic nature is someone who's basically a little bit more like regional. So I think anyone on the internet is actually apostolic.

I think to some degree, you guys could even be considered that at the really large definition of that word. It just means like apostolic means a voice beyond a local community. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so I just think that's my role. And I actually think that's subservient, by the way,

to local communities, not above. And what I mean by that is like my job is to be in, embedded in a way that's helping and disciplining Christians with certain thinking and certain viewpoints, but then come underneath and make sure I'm serving and honoring and equipping that people doing the really hard work of the local church. But absolutely not a pastor. Dude, I'm like so, Alyssa loves being married to me and then hates being married to me because I do not have a pastor's heart, man. It's like, someone shares something. I'm just like, sucks to be you. I have to pray so hard, like, just be empathetic, be empathetic, do you know what

that's hilarious? And pastors need that skills. Let's see. Is there such a. is there such thing as celebrity pastors or is that just an unfair name given to pastors on Instagram? If so, how do you feel about them given you are friends with a lot of them? Should pastors have celebrity status? I was just going to say, well, it's really tough when you're friends with a lot of them. I would say, oh, this is a really nuanced conversation. Quickly, I would say, okay, how would I say this?

I think some people inflame it, meaning like they like it and they're trying to multiply by what it does for them and how it helps them. I think that's wrong. I think that's for ill gain from a Christian perspective. And I think some are just like, man, I'm not in control of having this much influence. I need to steward it and be sensitive to it. I do think no matter which one you are, you are responsible for the optics of you. Does that make sense?

And I think sometimes people try to scapegoat that, meaning like take the preachers and sneakers thing or whatever. It's like, dude, is it, can we maybe make an argument that it's cool to have $5,000 sneakers? Maybe I wouldn't agree with that. And I struggle with that. And then also, at least as a pastor, I think anyone can have, you know what I mean? Like, that's because of the optics of what that means to be a pastor. And so it's like that, yeah, and she agrees. She agrees.

She agrees. She's like, amen. And so I think, so I think pastors, that's the best way I would say it. People with really, really large followings and who write books and are also pastors, have to be sensitive to the optics that are true about them that they're not in control of, but need to sensitively be like aware of it. They're responsible of that, too. They're responsible.

They're responsible for everything, but I think they're responsible for their, own optics. Sorry, not the, not the optics that they get, but they're responsible for understanding them and sensitively stewarding them. And at the end of the day, if they're a true pastor, biblically, they're called to serve a local place with local people, not be doing all the things on Instagram. So sometimes I'm like, dude, are you even at your church? Like, yeah, you know what I mean? Just you're just traveling and speaking all the time and all these things. And there's, it's fine. Like I don't, you know, but then also I will say to defend a lot of people, there's a lot of people that get a lot of crap online. And I'm like, man, when you're having

coffee with them. They'd love the Lord fervently, wholeheartedly and devotedly, and you just wish people could see that side of them. So like, all that's true. Yeah, that was really good answer. You guys agree or disagree? I agree. I think my one struggle is, I'm like, okay, so if they're responsible for the optics, so they're not wearing the $5,000 sneakers on stage, but then you go to their home and they're wearing the $5,000 sneakers and all the Cartier. And I'm like, that just kind of turns me off even more. Yeah. No, I agree with that. I agree with that. And I, yeah, I would still put that in the same bucket.

And I really don't like when a lot of Christian, like, I don't like when a lot of Christian pastors with a large following use the same, like, tools as like the business world and the influence world. Yeah. Yeah. It's so bothers us a lot. We talk about that.

Like doing all the click funnels and all of this stuff. And I'm like, it just feels a little manipulative in a religious environment. Yes. Even if it's totally appropriate in a normal other environments. 100%. Yeah, we talk about that all the time. Yeah, we talk about a lot, like how they're not really, it's almost like if you have as someone who's a secular influencer and a Christian

implants are like both are trying to achieve the same thing whether that's growth in the business like we're just kind of being more honest about it totally a lot of pastors who I think are you know doing things in the name of God I'm doing it for the Lord I'm doing it for the Lord it's like again you're getting a crap ton of benefits the longer you lie to yourself that that's what you're doing it for like totally you're going to fall totally I think you've seen that yeah yeah um if Jesus or the disciples these are hot if Jesus or the disciples walked on earth today do you think they would evangelize via social media. Yes.

Jesus, maybe not. I actually don't know. That's the question we got to ask him when we get there. I don't think you can make the argument. I think it's a really weak argument to say that Paul wouldn't. Now Paul technically a disciple, he's an apostle. I don't know. But like Paul like, I mean, so you can't read the book of Acts and be like, it's very

clear he's using every point of technology available to him in the first century, which would have been. So like, here's another way to put it. Paul is very clearly evangelizing, via the marketplace. That was one of his primary domains. The marketplace in the first century was like the street fair with all the vendors, right? And there's a lot of people. I take the most amount of people show up there. So he picked that strategically. Or the middle of a stadium. Like, you know, like the gladiator stadium. He's, you know, and I think it's

16 or 17. He has the riot in Ephesus where they literally pull him in there and try to stone him. And then he says, hold on, let me preach. And the dude's just preaching bangers in front of all these people that are pissed at him. And you're like, dang. So he took advantage of all the largest rooms, all the largest moments for from a multiplication stewardship standpoint. And you're like, well, it's really hard to draw. Like, if you're going to draw one to one today, what's the marketplace? It's certainly not the like farmer's market. It's like social media. It's Twitter. It's exactly. Well, X, and that place is a dumpster fire now. Yeah, good luck. Yeah, yeah, yeah, good luck. So I would say that. And then even back to our earlier point, too, when you're talking about

the culture and all that's how Christians should be in culture, Paul also, like, what's one of my favorite parts about him in Acts is there's multiple times where he uses cultural voices to like critique the culture. So he's basically using their currency, their language, the people they look up to to actually say, hey, your people say this. Like, you're not paying attention. And then he kind of twists it and use it. It's kind of if someone were to use like some line from Drake or something, and be like, hey, he's saying it too or something. I don't know. But that's really what he was doing. He was using the poets and the preachers of that day that weren't Christian to leverage his point and push it farther. Short answer, I do think he would. What about you guys?

I don't know about Jesus either. That's a tough one. I don't know. He seems a little more introverted. He just really does. But I can't wait to ask him. I don't know if he would have. I actually don't know if he would have. And I might make a case for why he wouldn't, but I'll think about that in the next episode. For Paul, absolutely. Yeah.

Let's wrap. Let's wrap. Okay. Okay. See you. Yep. Done. No, I'm joking.

No. Okay. So tell us again where everyone can find your book and your Instagram, all your socials. Jefferson Bethke, Instagram is the one I'm most active on. So just go there. I like responding and talking to people and doing stuff there. And then the book on Amazon, Barnes & Noble,

fighting shadows. Jeff, thank you so much for being here. We all learned so much. We appreciate it. Thank you for having you guys. We might have to have you back. I mean, I'm down.