Dear Chelsea - I Am Not Your Enemy with Whistleblower Reality Winner

Episode Date: September 18, 2025

Chelsea is joined today by whistleblower Reality Winner, a former linguist and intelligence analyst, arrested in 2017 for leaking classified documents  about Russian interference in the 2016 election.  They discuss Reality’s arrest, incarceration and recovery - and why it’s so important to speak out when you see injustice.     * Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at [e-mail] * Executive Producer Catherine Law Edited & Engineered by Brad Dickert * * * The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.  This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all.  Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Brought to you by Novartis, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports Network. Okay. Hi. Hi, Catherine. Hi. Did you see that our friend Boom Boom Hiller won an Emmy? I did see that Boom Boom Hiller won an Emmy. That's very exciting.

Yes, I was very happy for him. He gave one a great, great speech. I didn't understand what was going on at the Emmys with the money. What was the money thing? I tuned in like halfway through. I also tuned in like halfway through. I think they should just let people who won talk, don't you? I mean, you've posted these awards shows.

Like, what's your opinion on that? I just feel like that's the moment people get to talk. I mean, obviously within reason, don't go crazy. I thought they were deducting people. They were deducting money from a charity for people who were going over their time. They were taking money back from the charity? Yeah, that's what they were doing, I think. I'm pretty sure that they were, basically, they had a set number.

anyone who talked over, it became a reduction. Oh, they were giving them less? Yes. So I was like, that's pretty fucked up. But who knows? I mean, I can't really even track a conversation. So who knows what I was thinking? I was kind of half watching. I had just, I went to New York again this weekend. So I had a quick. I was, I had a show actually. I had a show. Oh, I just announced a new tour, you guys. That's what I want to talk about. I announced the high and mighty tour, which I'm going to start next year. I started in Washington, D.C. next January or February? I don't know. It's called the High and Mighty Tour. Tickets are on sale and I'm going to lots of different cities and you can check my website, Chelseahandler.com, for tickets or you could go to the link in

my Instagram to buy tickets. That's great. So that's what's happening there. And we have a very exciting guest. I, okay, so I saw a movie. I actually moderated a conversation for a director named Susanna Fogel who directed a movie about reality winner. This is a girl's real name. This is our guest's real name today. When you first texted me and said, I want to talk to reality, winner. I was like, winner of what reality show? Like, I did not get it. Her name is reality winner. And if you don't remember who she is, she was a whistleblower during Trump's

first term. She was working at the NSA, and she leaked some document to the intercept. Yeah. To the intercept. And then the FBI basically arrested her. They came, they interrogated her. They showed up at her house on a Saturday

afternoon. And anyway, she's a former linguist. She's an intelligence analyst. She was arrested in 2017 for leaking classified documents about the Russian interference in the 2016 election. And there is some backstory that our listeners should know about before we get into this conversation. Reality was in the Air Force as a linguist. She translated conversations for government targets. And then when she left, she started a contract with the NSA.

And she outlines that there are certain news sources that people who work for the NSA are allowed to read that are not available to the general public. But people with security clearance are not allowed to read mass. news the way civilians are. Right. So she explains in pretty great detail in the book how as a person who has a high security clearance working for the NSA, she had access to a specific news outlet that was only for people with a high security clearance. But there was also sort of this rule that she couldn't go look at New York Times. She couldn't go look at Washington Post. And if they had found something like that, like links to that on her phone, anything like that,

then she would have been in trouble. So there is this sort of weird dichotomy that people with high levels of top secret clearance do have access to more information, but they also don't necessarily have what all of the rest of us have access to. So the document, and it was just one document that she leaked, was from this news source that she had access to as a person with high security clearance. So she felt that she needed to release this document about Russian interference in the election so the American people would know it happened. And then the FBI found out, confronted her in her home in a three-hour interview during which she was not read her Miranda writes. She also had a dog and cat at her home that were unpredictable. She describes feeling

terrified that they'd hurt her animals or used their behavior as an excuse to hurt her. She was taken to jail where she stayed for about a year before going to prison for four more years. And then her mom lived in her house nearby while she was incarcerated, which she says saved her life. And then once she was out, she had a period of readjustment. She says even the colors outside were overwhelming for her after five years of staring at gray walls. She briefly, got married and then quickly divorced to an old boyfriend who had a child. This was part of her rebellion during her readjustment period. And now she has written a book about her experience, has moved on romantically, and is in veterinary tech school. So there are a few movies out

about her. There was a Broadway show. There was a Broadway. Yes, a Broadway show. And now she has a book called I Am Not Your Enemy. That's a little background information for you. So please welcome Reality Winner. Hi Reality. Hey Chelsea. Hi, how are you? I'm good. Thanks for having me. How are you? Oh, I'm great. I always want to say we'll commence, but I feel like commence says we're starting. Does it commence mean we're starting something or we're finishing something? I'm getting confused with my Spanish. Yeah, commence is starting. Commencement speech, though, at a graduation is the end. Yeah. Well, you're commencing into life. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. Okay. We have reality winner here. Reality. You and I go way back, but you don't know it. I mean, sure a lot of people feel that way about you. First of all, I'm just happy to see you out of prison. I actually moderated a conversation between Susanna Fogel. Do you know Susanna? I love her, yes. Yes. Okay, great. She directed a move in one of the movies. So there's three movies out about your story. Reality winner was a whistleblower in the year 2016 with

relation to the Russian interference in the 2016 election. And subsequently went to jail and then prison because of that. So there was a documentary about you, which I also watched. And then there was a movie with Sidney Sweeney. I skipped that one. And then the one with Susanna Fogel who starred, who was the star of that reality? Amelia Jones. Amelia Jones, who's fucking phenomenal. Did you love that movie? I don't watch anything about me because I have a very like physical trauma response. Yeah, I understand that. I understand that. How are you doing today? I'm doing so good today. My biggest issue was having to get to this studio, I hate driving on overpasses. They're my nemesis. Really? Why? They're so high. Why? What about bridges? No. You won't drive over a bridge? No.

Do you know that when I was a little girl, our family used to drive up to Martha's Vineyard every summer. So you drive from New Jersey. We grew up in New Jersey. We drive to Wood's home, Massachusetts, and you would have to drive over a bridge called the Tappenzie Bridge that's outside of New York. And it was, you know how big bridges are? They have all of that iron work over them, right? But that's not the actual pavement. But my brothers and sisters convinced me that we had to drive up all over the iron work every time. So I would crouch down and cover my head because I was so scared.

I'm like, oh, my God, how are we going to stay on? They're like, we might not. Like cars fall off all the time. And so anytime, so I have bridge trauma too. Yeah, I hate them. But it sounds like you have lower bridge trauma. Right. There is some bridges out here, like the only way to get to the beach is on a bridge and it's not fun to be in the car with me. I have to drive. I have to be in charge of my own death. But it's horrible. Well, I think after everything you've been through, it's fine for you to want to be in charge of your own death and your own life at this point, right? How long have you been out of prison? Officially, I have been out for four years. Okay. So you wrote this book, obviously, after that. And,

the book takes us through your journey. The book is called I am not your enemy, reality winner. So let's go through your history because you joined the Air Force and then you decided that you wanted to go work at the NSA. Correct. And take us through what happened when you started working at the NSA. So in the transition from the Air Force to the NSA, I already knew it was a temporary position, I had my site set on getting a position in Afghanistan proper, but that in order to be eligible for those deployments, I would have to keep my security clearance current because that's what the recruiters were looking for. So I was coming up on a very important deadline, and I just took any contract that would have me. So that was the particular position that I was working at in Georgia

at the time of my arrest or at the time I committed the felony, there was nothing for me to do. I just sat there and watched YouTube all day and planned out my workouts and my yoga classes. They didn't really know I was there. And looking back, being so disconnected from any sort of purpose or mission is definitely one of those things that left me vulnerable to doing something so naive.

Naive is the word that you use. a lot. And I also don't really think you're naive. I think that from your books and from what I've learned about you, that you really just had a sense of right and wrong and that you wanted to share. And I think that's very admirable. And I think what you did, yeah, you're young. I think you were young and didn't realize, which you revealed in the documentary, that you didn't realize what the consequences would be. In fact, you didn't even really consider the consequences of sharing the information that you were privy to. I didn't. I mean, I just really thought that at the end of the day, no damage was done. It was very clear that I did what I did for the greater good and that, you know, I was definitely going to lose my job, but I did not imagine the statements that the government would then make about me and my character following this.

And at this time in your life, were you familiar with people like Julian Assange? So on the surface, yes, I knew about Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning, but because of the technicality, they were able to keep us from knowing any of the specifics about these individuals every week or so, especially when the news cycle would be very much focused on one of those individuals, that if you read this Washington Post article and it was derived off of classified information and you read it on your personal device, you are then careful. carrying around classified information, and you could be charged with the espionage act. So it was a way to make sure that we were kept in the dark on what life is like when you're charged with these sort of crimes in that I didn't know anything about Snowden or Chelsea at all. I didn't know what their legal defense was like. I didn't really know what they had gone through. I was just kind of acting in the dark at that point. And the reason that you acted was because you felt what?

I felt like if the American people had the information on that document and they could see it in black and white, that A, would answer a question that was, I felt like it was burning a whole inner society in 2017. And I wanted to give the American people a way to decode media bias. If they had the full story, they could see, like, The people I trust on the TV aren't giving me the whole story. Like, I can see everything right here, and they're leaving half of it out.

And so can you take us through what happened on that Saturday morning after you had printed that? So you had printed the document was that on a Friday, right, in your office? I had actually printed it on like a Monday or Tuesday, and I think I mailed it out on a Tuesday night. And it wasn't for about two and a half weeks until the FBI came to my house. And I think we should also point out, you know, the Intercept, which is who you sent the document to, kind of was like, yeah, they bungled the situation. They have all these high-level people who know how to handle whistleblowers. And your document went to two journalists who did not know how to do that. And instead, their mistake wound up eventually in your conviction. Mistake. It was not a mistake. It was on purpose. It's by design. I was the third. Well, actually, Terry was the third, but there were three of us in a very short succession that were sort of outed by their incompetence, but then championed by them. So they would create victims and martyrs and then try to be the only media outlet fairly reporting on them.

So take us through what happened to you on that Saturday when the FBI did show up at your house, because you were getting ready to go on a date that night anyway. exactly the ultimate ghosting oh that's funny yeah not only did i not show up but he was probably interrogated as well poor guy oh true i bet so i parked with my groceries and immediately a black vehicle comes up behind my car and parks me in and garrick and taylor come out they introduced themselves they showed the warrant and i knew what it was about obviously because i had the thing, but they said they were looking for documents. And I was like, whew, I only had one document, and I sent it out. Like, that's kind of one of the reasons why I was just so compliant. I was just like, okay, search my house. The only thing that started to get scary was

that there were 11 men. I was pretty sure all of them were armed. And the government was very quick to correct me. Of the 11 agents, only nine of them were armed. Only nine. Only nine. So I was lying again. You know me. I just can't stop telling lies. And they kept leaving my doors open. And I had just sort of had my early 20s awakening of the injustices of this country and understood that when the police or the FBI, when someone from the government, when someone from the government kills you, they have the only control of the narrative. And so I knew that these men were leaving my doors open and interacting with a dog that had previously been extremely aggressive to men. And that if my cat had gotten out and if I had like run down the street after her,

would they shoot me in the back? If I became emotional about how they were taking care of my animals or if I thought they were going to shoot my dog, would they shoot me? And then, you know, try me, you know, basically posthumously convict me in the news cycle the next day. They had interrogated me. I did confess. I thought that because they looked like the guys that I worked with at NSA, if I just was straight with them, that whatever was coming next in a court or whatever, I could figure out and it would be a normal legal process. And that was when Garrick told me, we're going to have to take you in. You're going to go in this vehicle over here. So nondescript, unmarked black vehicle. He said, it was going to be okay because my hands

would be cuffed in the front and not the back and that he would be sitting next to me the whole time and that he wanted to apologize because it would be a bit of a drive. What little I did know about Chelsea Manning was that when they first took her, she was in solitary confinement in Quantico for nine months and nobody knew where she was. So when he said that reassuring statement, I understood that I was going to Quantico that night and nobody would know where I was. That was not the case. And even if they had intended to drive me to the jail themselves, the last remaining part of the warrant was a search of my person. And obviously, I was kind of in between dates, so I wasn't wearing much. A visual search would have been just fine, but a female, a woman, had to do it. So

that was when they called a nearby deputy from the Richmond County Sheriff's Office. And I don't know what it was, but she came and assessed a situation. And she took me to a private room and patted me down and executed the search warrant on my person. And she came out and had a conversation that I couldn't hear. And shortly after that, another sheriff's department vehicle came up and another female officer came out. And she said, hey, I'm going to be the one taking you to jail. So for the first time, women were on the scene, uniforms were on the scene, marked vehicles were on the scene, and the word jail was spoken. And I mean, honestly, that was the first time I knew that I was going to survive that night. Because, so that's, okay, so. Because it's a

paper trail and a record. Yes, I knew my parents could find me then. Your poor parents, my God. I mean, honestly, watching your, I mean, I don't want to make you feel bad because I'm sure you have enough guilt to deal with about with regard to your parents. But what your mother and your stepfather, is it your stepfather? Yeah. Yeah. Went through. It's just like, I wouldn't wish that on any mother, you know, and fighting so hard on your behalf and having to hear. And also, you know, coming, really there is just nothing better than a good mother.

There really is no, nothing better in life than having a good mother. It's more important than a good father. A good mother is everything because she wasn't going to let you compromise your values or your goals either. She wasn't going to let you take a deal, which you were given the opportunity to do. I was initially up front and then later again, like in November of 2017, offered five years. And we had tried some legal strategies to get that down to four years. and it did not work. And so when you were given that sentence for basically telling the truth,

how did you wrap your mind around that? Psychologically, I know you talk about in the documentary and in the book you did as well about contemplating suicide and the one thing you didn't want to do was hurt yourself, kill yourself while your mother was alone in your house, which I thought was just like, oh my God. They didn't want your mother to get that news. get that information while she was, yeah.

Yeah, I think that at that moment in time, the only thing, I knew I was going to do it, and the only thing I was in control of was the timing, where my mother would be when she got the news. We had just gotten word that I would be denied bail again, and that I would probably never leave that jail except to go to prison or to trial. And I said, I can't do this anymore. And so I started planning and doing dry runs of my suicide. And the last piece of the puzzle was, hey, I'm not getting out on bail. You need to go back to Texas.

You need to go home and get the house in order. And we'll figure this out later. You know, my attorneys will do some stuff. And she put it off by a week. And then she put it off by another week. And then she put off by another week. And then she started, like, working at a dog shelter and thinking about a dog. adopting a dog in Georgia. And it was like those three weeks where I was actively trying to get

her to start driving and doing that. Other stuff was going on in those three weeks. And I had kind of hit A rock bottom, which involved me screaming and punching a door after an officer. And I came out and told one of my attorneys, this is what's going on. When you guys call me to to the courthouse for this. I can't go outside to yard call. And I know you guys are sick and tired of me saying that I want to go outside. I'm bulimic. I can't do this anymore. I'm bulimic. I'm not functioning. I'm not surviving. And, you know, luckily people on my legal team were very close to that particular illness. And, you know, you think about, like, you know, men don't take eating disorder seriously. They have very intimate knowledge of how deadly bulimia is, and they

said, this is not okay. Like, you're very sick, and this has to be taken care of. And when they started initiating that type of care and that type of consideration, I can't say things got better, But I feel like the moment I came out, it felt like all the drive in me to kill myself had just kind of gone away. And then how did that impact your eating disorder when you were in jail or prison at this point? Once you told everybody, then what happened with your eating disorder? You know, it's so difficult. Like even in normal daily life, like you come out about something like that. Like obviously you can't just like not eat.

You know what I mean? It's not like, it's not like being like, oh, I'm addicted to meth. You know what I mean? People are going to watch you to see if you're doing meth. If you're like, oh, I have bulimia, people want to see if you're eating, right? It's never really like a relief. It just cuts some tension. And I was medicated. And my legal team altered their interactions with me in a way that would not disrupt the daily. schedule of the prison. Then they understood that when they came to have legal meetings with me or when they were calling me to the courthouse and I would miss yard call or being able to go outside, they stopped doing that. They said, we are going to meet her on her own terms and we're

only going to try to meet with her after she's gone outside to go run or exercise. And just things like that, it made enough of a difference to get me through the winter of 2017. And you talk a lot about the exercise and that kind of replacing your addiction in a sense. I mean, were you able to actually stop throwing up at that point? Or did you continue on for a while? I was able to not throw up and to continue to exercise at an intensity that allowed me to eat. And that was another pressing issue of, with my disordered eating, having very severe OCD as to what I would even put into my body. Yeah. I don't even think clinically I could get my hands on enough food that I was willing to eat to do a proper binge.

So it was pretty much just trying not to throw up the one meal I would eat that day. Right. Right, because you talk about how it was difficult to get not only like kosher meals, but like meals that didn't have meat or didn't it that had things that you could. could eat, that you were okay eating? I mean, it's crazy, but as a federal inmate, that county jail was required to give me a substitute protein and not just more rice or more corn. When I got to federal prison, where it is regulated, there's fried chicken or there's baked beans, right?

They have to have that on the line. It didn't make it easier because you would be discriminated against if you dared hold up the line to ask for the alternative because they're just throwing chicken entrees and trying to push everybody through. You just got to have a thick skin and there were several really tense standoffs with officers because, like I said,

I dared to ask for the beans. This week, we're looking for questions from writers. Whether you're an up-and-coming writer or you do it for a living, please write in to Dear Chelsea Podcast at gmail.com. Hey, everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. And you're never going to guess who's our guest on Lost Cultureistas.

It is Bradley Jackson, Elle Woods, Tracy Flick, herself. Reese Witherspoon. It must go in a girls' trip. I have to have a tequila. We must. Oh! The Q rating. Cue rating.

When they run diagnostic on you guys. I'd be scared. I don't run the Q rating. No, on the Q rating. I get it. My resiliency score is down to adequate because we were on a red eye. My resiliency score. My grit.

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They are sitting there waiting for the vulnerable thing. They're waiting for the unprotected. I'm Dr. Leslie, forensic psychologist. I advocate for safety and awareness of predators while wearing pink. When you were described to me as a forensic psychologist, I was like snooze. We ended up talking for hours, and I was like, This girl is my best friend. This is a podcast where I cut through the noise with sarcasm, satire, and hard truths.

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Lots. Yeah. People you still keep in touch with? Absolutely. I went and ran a half marathon with one of my friends, Stephanie, and my family got to meet her, and they added her on Facebook. She's great. She's doing so well. I'm so proud of her.

Oh, wow. Yeah. So talk to us about what it was like to come out. out of prison after spending that much time there when you did come out four years ago. Talk to us a little bit about leading up to that moment and then the actuality. I know you have ideas. People talk about these kinds of huge changes that you have ideas of what it's going to be like and then the reality of what it is like can be kind of counterintuitive to a degree. Absolutely. I mean, when you're inside those four walls of the prison, it's like give me an ankle monitor. I don't care.

I would do anything just to be home. And in the year leading up to my release, the COVID pandemic had happened. We had had several unwarranted lockdowns and being put in county jail-type conditions all over again. And I had just become so disruptive and violent and using drugs, getting girlfriends, getting into fights, that by the time that version of me, out of that prison, I was almost unrecognizable to my family. Even mild disagreements would get loud with me. I didn't know how to relate because the things that I thought were funny were like, you know, I mean, they were so inappropriate all the time, like, which was fine, but I don't think anybody gave me or my family the vocabulary to sort of talk through the process

of decompressing. A huge trauma, I'm right leading up to my release, is that I spent 23 days in a single hospital room as part of a COVID quarantine procedure. It was just so desocializing to a certain extent. And I feel like not ashamed, but just like, God, the person I had to become to get through that with any type of stability or, you know, we were, we were literally like, oh, okay, you're going to put us in a room like mental patients. We're going to act like mental patients. I mean, we did. And then to come out, the pressure was if your parents do anything public, if they announce that you're home, we might not be able to keep you at home. At every step of the way that halfway house threatened my ability to be on home confinement. I did two drug tests

a week. I was not ever authorized to drive myself. So my parents had to take off work to drive an hour and an hour back. Just constant drug testing when I didn't even have a drug charge. Like, yes, I know I did drugs, right? Like we can all say like, oh, she did drugs while she was in. It's in the memoir. At that point in time, I'm like the federal government had zero documentation of substances being in my body. But I'm being tested constantly if the ankle monitor would buzz, if it would be on low battery.

One time I missed a phone call because I was on the phone with my boss and I called the guy back and he was like, oh, okay, well, I had already documented as having escaped. I was constantly under so much pressure from the top down, from the government down, that the only way that pressure could come out was sideways.

And so my family were, they were the sideways. They were in my line of fire since I couldn't do anything to ease the government pressure off of me. So things were really toxic those first six months. Wow. How about your sister? Luckily, she was protected out of the picture. She was in North Carolina. she did bring my niece down, her daughter.

She brought her down to visit. I got to meet my niece for the first time, or the second time, because they surprised me getting out of prison. She and baby were there waiting outside the prison for me. I know for her it was hard, but she also had a one-year-old daughter, so that probably gave her a really nice little buffer zone between the absolute dumpster fire that I was. And what do you think, what was the shift that happened after about six months?

Just did it start to depressurize, like everything surrounding your case and you're kind of like their oversight of you? I think a really big part of it was, yes, I secretly married Carlos in my backyard. and then 67 days later that relationship fell apart and you know my parents didn't talk about it but I think that once it had completely fallen apart you know day 67 I said okay like his shit is out of this house like I made him come get it and you know it was like I'm going to start figuring out how to secretly get divorced from my living room right it felt like one of the biggest between me and my parents was lifted. And honestly, like, it's really ugly to say this,

but a big part of it was the fact that he had a daughter who was, she was four at the time, and he would bring her over. And, you know, my mother felt like I wasn't supposed to bond to this child while my sister and her baby existed. Like, oh, you got out of prison, you got to meet your baby, Oh, but now you're playing stepmom to a four-year-old. Like, I thought you wanted to be an aunt for your sister's baby. Or were you in any condition to be in that role in the first place?

Well, I was fucking better than he was at it. That's for fucking sure. But when I found out he was getting high again and stuff like that, I mean, you know, and part of getting married, I knew he was terrible. But I thought, again, like, this girl was brilliant. four years old taught herself how to read her mom really didn't want to be a mom which is why she was she spent 90% of her time with her alcoholic high you know piece of shit father and i just thought well god damn like even with this ankle monitor i'm better than both of them combined and isn't it amazing though

when you think back and look at that kind of decision making like marrying carlos in the first place Like when you look at your, the state that you were in, how newly out of prison you were, what your parents must have thought about that. I mean, you know, you discussed that too, and it's obvious. But when you look back at that decision making, don't you just know that you were in no position to make any of those decisions? Like you were dealing with so much trauma that you hadn't even begun to unearth. Yeah.

And I think that when someone's drowning in trauma, the worst. thing you can do is point out that they're traumatized and that I was, I hate it when people say this, but they do say it. Inmate thinking patterns, the way you think and operate as an inmate is you find what you want and you find a way to secure it in a way that an officer or a position of authority cannot take it away from you. So I knew that I wanted to be with Carlos and I wanted to be a family to that little girl. And I was just thinking like, A, my parents can't say anything if we're married, but B, if I do wind up back in custody, the government can never deny me access to the two of them if we're legally married. Okay. So it was the absolute, like,

you just grab something and you're just like, no, you can't take this away from me because I have this legal document. And you're constantly trying to be too. steps ahead of the police. And that's where that decision making was from. And again, as a family unit, nobody had that sort of, nobody had the vocabulary to sit me down and say, nobody's going to take him away from you. We don't like him. We don't agree with him. We're not going to let you go back into custody, but nobody's going to make it illegal for you guys to interact. And because I didn't get that assurance, I married him secretly. And once that disintegrated, I felt like everything got better with my parents. Obviously, like, the way relationships go, we did see each

other one more time. And that was when I saw firsthand the way he was going to use access to his daughter to get behavior that he wanted from me. Yeah. And that was when I walked away permanently and I never saw either of them again. Wow. It's like trauma on top of trauma on top of trauma. I just keep asking for it. I make shit decisions. No, no, no, no. You're going to get better at making life decisions. You already have. You're going to get better. That's just a period in time. That's not permanent. Nothing's permanent. You know, look, you're out. This is different. I mean, I have a lot of faith in your future. Do you? I mean, I guess. I think you just lead. You're just such a heart leader. You know, you lead with your heart so much that that's been your issue. I think, you know, when you say you're terrible at making decisions, you're making decisions with your heart rather than using your head. But with all of this experience that you now have, you're going to make better decisions. It's like a math equation. You're smart. You're too smart to keep repeating those decisions. And I don't think the first decision was necessarily framed as a bad decision. It was based on the courage of your conviction.

Exactly. It was what you believed in. I wouldn't frame that as bad. You just didn't realize the consequences. So it was naive, as you say, it was young. But it wasn't like you did something wrong. You didn't do something wrong. You know, I would like to think that I would have those same convictions in your situation.

So now where are you, where are you with all of your trauma? How do you feel about everything and how do you feel about your life moving forward? And how do you frame the past? So one of the best parts about being back in my hometown is I get to be anonymous. People, when they've realized that I'm reality winner, it's usually like, oh, you're Billy's daughter. And so everybody wants to know how my mom and my sister are doing. People don't really make the connection to what I did. The people down here are very conservative, but they also don't follow national news there,

which is kind of in my hiding place. I'm just coachery, and I've been coaching CrossFit now for four years. It's a cult, but it's also what keeps me from being bulimic. It's like the only cure that I've ever found so far. And, you know, I rescue dogs, and I recently started a veterinary technology program at the local university, which is the hardest thing I've ever done. And the travel restrictions are even more Like, I'm not traveling. I'm not going anywhere. Like, I basically signed up for three more years of federal probation. What do you mean basically signed up? Literally, if you miss more than two days, you're out of the program. The vet tech program? Yes. I felt more nervous asking for one day of missed class to go on book tour, the week of publication, than I ever did asking my probation officer to travel. You said you were surprised that they used the dog in the movie, that they had the dog in

movie. Why did that surprise you? Or that they had to stealing a dog in the movie? Which you had never done at that time. Oh, yeah. I hadn't actually never stolen a dog. My friends stole a dog for me back in May. And I just thought that was like a funny continuation of like how that movie played out. That was the only scene I've ever seen from that movie. I just thought it was so delightful. It is delightful. It is. It's so funny. I wasn't even really into animal rescue at the time of my arrest. You know, it's just kind of been a self-fulfilling prophecy. Like, the more people talk about it, the more I started doing it in my own life. And what do you think are like some of, like, what do you think is your biggest takeaway from

spending all that time locked up and being treated as a criminal? Like, what do you think that did to your spirit? Like, do you feel stronger now? I don't necessarily feel stronger. I do feel a little bit more brittle. kind of like, I know if you hit this glass against a table the right way, it's going to shatter, you know. I know what can take me down really quickly. You know, I've often said, like, what doesn't kill you, just doesn't kill you. But I do think that getting to interact with people from a background that I never would have before and sort of breaking down, like, I mean, when I was growing up, I was constantly just around, other brilliant children. Even in high school, you know, all my friends right now are like, they're all doctors. They're just insanely successful people. And even in the military, being around other people like me that could learn languages, I've never been around normal people until I was in that county jail. And that's kind of what burst my bubble and

helped me understand my own country. I thought I was interested in social justice in the United States and then I got locked up and I got really interested in it very fast because you do realize that what is happening to millions of other Americans can happen to you at any time and that all of us are one interaction with law enforcement away from being in solitary confinement without legal justification. And what we're seeing now with, you know, these ice rates going on and, you know, citizens getting detained under immigration law, which is ridiculous. Like, it's so scary right now to the point to where I never thought that this is where we were going as a country. My basic understanding was, yeah, if they charge you with a crime, they can do anything to you after that. And now

they don't even have to charge you. Oh, it is, yeah, that's very scary to think about, especially when you put it like that. What do you want out of life now that you have one? Honestly, I just want to know that my community is a better place because I'm in it. And like most people, I want to be comfortable in my life. I want enough to get by. I want to fence in my 10 acres and open a dog sanctuary. You know, I mean, my view of the world has gotten a lot smaller with this criminal conviction,

not being able to have the high positions that I wanted to do. I can't even coach troubled kids, you know. I can't be a mentor yet. You have to have 10 years clearance from your last day of your sentence. My sentence didn't end until last November. So in 2030, I might be eligible to be a mentor for children caught up in the criminal justice system. I'm surprised they allowed you to write a book. I am allowed.

I can't make any money from it. And the NSA took two years to clear that manuscript. Really? Wow. So where does the money go? So I gave everything to my agent because I love him. Not in a weird, like, creepy way, but he found me, and he didn't even know I couldn't make money from it. This was all conversations we had later on once we found a publisher. As of right now,

I don't have any documentation to say otherwise, but proceeds from this book will go to charity. We just, we waited two years for the NSA to clear the manuscript. When the time comes, we will make a statement on which charities are and, you know, what percent of proceeds and how that works out legally. But I do plan on being as transparent as possible. And do you want to have a family? I have eight dogs, three cats, and somebody named Eddie. So is that a man in your life or is that another animal? He's a man. Unfortunately. No, no, no, no. That's not unfortunate. I'm glad that you have someone that you care about. I want that for you. And I also just want you to, like, you're an inspiration, you know? I hope you, do you feel that way? Um, I don't. I just,

I'm like looking back, like I could have done things so much better. And I could have been somebody that the government couldn't say these terrible things about, even though 99% of them weren't true. You know, it's really hard to continually absorb the things that, were said about you in the courtroom that are like there's just enough truth in that statement to where you actually just believe everything they said about you. And I'm still reckoning with that today. Like I said, I don't use my name in a lot of social situations. And just admitting that I went to prison, you know, the biggest compliment that I get is if I bring it up, people just think I went for like meth and I'm like I'm willing to go along with that like yeah sure it's so much more than

that because I mean I don't think you're taking into account that you survived all of this you know of course it's not ideal of course you don't want anyone to be saying you know to be propagating lies or perpetuating lies about you no but you survived all of this you have a job and you care about your like place in the community look at all these animals that you're helping like your parent, you're with your family, you know, like there's so many good things, even though this is not an ideal situation and you would, if you had to repeat it, you would not have repeated it. You are here with us today. And there are lessons for you to still continue to learn. And, and, and your story, like sharing this book with the world is going to be

tremendously helpful, I think, and cathartic for your healing process. I mean, I'm assuming you're already in therapy. I mean, you'd have to be, right? You have been in therapy for a while. Yeah, therapy and me don't get along well because for three years of probation, I was court ordered to do it. I had to be in a program without being provided the health care for it. So I was like a lot of paying out of pocket. So like for me, it just led such a bad taste in my mouth. But I have been able to kind of get my veterans benefits back up and running. Oh, that's great. Yeah. So I was properly diagnosed last fall and have been doing a lot better with my mental. health and a sort of regimen for that. And you need to reclaim that, too. You know, you need to

reclaim therapy, because that's yours for the taking, not theirs to leave a bad taste in your mouth. Yeah. I mean, I'll just do a bunch of podcasts until I feel better about myself. Absolutely. Just keep talking and talking and spreading the good word. Well, and Chelsea, I think you're so right. Like this book, I feel like is such a turning point where 10, 20 years down the road, you may have a better understanding of why you went through what you went through, but this is just the beginning of that. Like, this feels like a starting point. A commencement, like we talked about earlier.

We have to figure out what commencement means because I'm still, I keep looking up that word. I'm like, is it a beginning or an end? Hey, everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen Yang. And you're never going to guess who's our guest on Las Culturistas. It is Bradley Jackson, L. Woods, Tracy Flick herself. Reese Witherspoon.

It must go in a girl's trip. I have to have a tequila. We must. Oh! The Q rating. Cue rating. When they run diagnostic on you guys. I'd be scared.

I'll run the Q rating. No on the Q rating on us. My resiliency score is down to adequate because we were on a red eye. My resiliency score. My grit. I got to get my grit score up. Now, don't think that you're going to come up. on Las Culturistas, the podcast,

and we're not going to at least bring up Big Little Lies season three. Whoever said orange is the new pink. We seriously disturbs. Listen to Las Culturistas on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jorge Ramos. And I'm Paola Ramos.

Together we're launching The Moment, a new podcast about what it means to live through a time, as uncertain as this one. We sit down with politicians. I would be the first immigrant mayor in generations, but 40% of New Yorkers were born outside of this country. Artists and activists, I mean, do you ever feel demoralized? I might personally lose hope. This individual might lose the faith. But there's an institution that doesn't lose faith, and that's what I believe in.

To bring you death and analysis from a unique Latino perspective. There's not a single day that Paola and I don't call or text each other, sharing news and thoughts about what's happening. in the country. This new podcast will be a way to make that ongoing intergenerational conversation public. Listen to The Moment with Jorge Ramos and Paula Ramos as part of the MyCultura Podcast Network on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. When news broke earlier this year that Baby KJ, a newborn in Philadelphia, had successfully received the world's first personalized gene editing treatment, it represented a milestone for both researchers and patients. But there's a great.

tripping tale of discovery behind this accomplishment and its creators. I'm Evan Ratliff, and together with biographer Walter Isaacson, we're delving into the story of Nobel Prize winner Jennifer Doudna, the woman who's helped change the trajectory of humanity. Listen to Aunt CRISPR, the story of Jennifer Dowdna with Walter Isaacson on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a

hundred years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do you want to hear the secrets of serial killers, psychopaths, pedophiles, robbers?

They are sitting there waiting for the vulnerable thing. They're waiting for the unprotectual. I'm Dr. Leslie, forensic psychologist. I advocate for safety and awareness of predators while wearing pink. When you were described to me as a forensic psychologist, I was like snooze. We ended up talking for hours and I was like, this girl is my best friend. This is a podcast where I cut through the noise with sarcasm, satire, and hard truths. I'm not going to fake it and force it for me. Would you force an orgasm?

Because that's like a different layer. The car accident you didn't want to see but couldn't turn away from. away from. In this episode, I discussed personal safety and self-defense, tools, instincts, and strategies to protect yourself and your loved ones in everyday life and high-risk situations. Listen to Intentionally Disturbing on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. But no, reality, I think that it's so funny that your name is reality winner. I mean, honestly, try to be anonymous with a name like reality.

winter. But I really do think like you haven't seen, I know you've been out for four years, but you haven't seen the lessons that are going to come from this just yet and to be open to whatever comes your way. And the fact that you're so open and so willing to share your story and that you don't, yes, of course there's bitterness, but you don't come across as someone who is bitter and enveloped in your bitterness. Do you know what I mean? You're loving and you're sweet And to remain, to have those things remaining within you is quite a feat. And it speaks volumes about your true character and who you really are, as opposed to all of the things that have been said about you that are not true. Yeah, I think 2025 for me has been difficult because we're right back in the same position we were in 2017.

Yeah, of course. It's very triggering for you. So triggering. I mean, one of the jokes we have is like, you know, the last time around. I only made it four months before I broke the law. And I think right now... You've already doubled your time. You've already done it.

It's eight months. I know. I have little tick marks, you know what I mean? But it's like the guilt of that then was like last time I was willing to act. And now, like so many millions of Americans, I don't want to lose everything all over again. I don't... Right. You know, am I supposed to be out there?

I mean, and of course, where I'd live. live in the middle of nowhere, you know, we're not in a big city. We're not in L.A. We're not Chicago right now. What am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to drive to Chicago and put my body between victims and masked agents, masked kidnappers, you know? I mean, what am I supposed to do? You've done what you're supposed to do. You're not supposed to be involved in anything else. You need to keep yourself safe and sane. That's your main objective and take care of all of your animals and have a good time with your boyfriend. That's what I want you to do. Those are doctors orders. I'm a medical professional. I'm actually not, so I can't say that, but I think I

am. So, but that's, you've done your, you've done your time, literally, and you've done your contribution to society. Leave that up to everybody else. And just focus on getting yourself healthy and as happy as possible. Because I want you to have a really full life. And, you know, you're still young. You have a whole life ahead of you. And this guy's not going to be president for the rest of our lives. This is only a four-year stint, even though, you know, other things have. So just don't even, you know, that's not your problem anymore. But I do want to thank you. I want all of our listeners to pick up a copy of I Am Not Your Enemy by Reality Winner. This book is really important and it's important to just, if you care about your country, it's important to read. And if you

care about being a strong woman who stands up for something and has convictions, it's important for you to read. And it's a story about surviving. It really is. You're survivor and you went through hell and you're still here to talk about it. And that in and of itself just shows that you have a purpose. And so thank you for coming on the podcast. And I really wish you all the best. Thank you so much for having me. I mean, like, I'm such a huge fan and I just really appreciate you taking the time. Absolutely. It was my pleasure. And I was just, when I met Susanna, and she's like, oh, will you moderate this film? I just, I was like, oh my God, yes. I know. know that story. So I was just, yeah, thrilled to be a part of that as well. And I'm going to

text her right now as soon as we get off and let her know that I got to meet you. I can't wait to see her next week. Oh, good. You're going to see her. Okay. Tell her I say hi. Will you? I will. Okay. Okay. Bye reality. Thank you so much. Sending you huge love. Bye. Thank you. Bye. I put up New Vegas dates, by the way, for next year. This year, I will be there November 1st and November 29th. Those are my last two dates this year. Then I start up again January 31st, March 7th, April 18th, and May 30th. And tickets are now on sale for all of those dates. Do you want advice from Chelsea? Write into Dear Chelsea Podcast at gmail.com. Find full video episodes of Dear Chelsea on YouTube by searching at Dear Chelsea Pod. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered by Brad

Dickert, executive producer, Catherine Law. And be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler.com. I'm Jorge Ramos. And I'm Paola Ramos. Together we're launching The Moment, a new podcast about what it means to live through a time as uncertain as this one. We sit down with politicians, artists, and activists to bring you death and analysis from a unique Latino perspective. The moment is a space for the conversations we've been having us, father and daughter, for years. Listen to The Moment with Jorge Ramos and Paola Ramos. on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, everybody, this is Matt Rogers. And Bowen-Yang. And you're never going to guess who's our guest on Las Culturistas. It is Elle Woods, Tracy Flick, herself. Reese Witherspoon. Louise, it must go in a girl's trip. I have to have a tequila. We must.

Oh! Whoever said orange is the new pink. We seriously disturbs. Listen to Las Culturistas on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, my name is Enya Umanzor. And I'm Drew Phillips. And we run a podcast called Emergency Intercom. If you're a crime junkie and you love crimes, we're not the podcast for you.

But if you have unmedicated ADHD... Oh my God, perfect. And want to hear people with mental illness, psychobabble. Yes, yes. Then Emergency Intercom is the podcast for you. Open your free iHeartRadio app, search emergency intercom, and listen now. Hey, it's your favorite jersey girl, Gia Judice. Welcome to Casual Chaos, where I share my story.

This week, I'm sitting down with Vanderpump Rural Star, Sheena Shea. I don't really talk to either of them, if I'm being honest. There will be an occasional text, one way or the other, from me to Ariana, maybe a happy birthday from Ariana to me. I think the last time I talked to Tom, it was like, congrats on America's Got Talent. This is a combo you don't want to miss. Listen to Casual Chaos on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Get fired up, y'all.

Season two of Good Game with Sarah Spain is underway. We just welcomed one of my favorite people, an incomparable soccer icon, Megan Rapino, to the show, and we had a blast. Take a listen. Sue and I were, like, riding the lime bikes the other day, and we're like, we're like, we're people ride bikes because it's fun. We got more incredible guests like Megan in store, plus news of the day and more. So make sure you listen to Good Game with Sarah Spain on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brought to you by Novartis, founding partner of IHeart Women's Sports Network.

This is an IHeart podcast.