Dear Chelsea - In Defense of Bathhouses with Dan Savage

Episode Date: July 14, 2022

Dan Savage (Savage Love) joins Chelsea this week to talk about why straight and gay men are exactly the same, how to keep your sex life alive in a long-term relationship, and why couples should f*ck first & have dinner later. Then: A mom with an open mind finds herself getting angry at her 4-year-old’s self-exploration. A celibacy pact unexpectedly goes on way too long. And a newlywed worries that her marriage is doomed after the sex suddenly become nonexistent. * Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at [e-mail] * Executive Producer Nick Stumpf Produced by Catherine Law Edited & Engineered by Brandon Dickert * * * * * The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.  This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all.  Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com

and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Decisions Decisions, the podcast where boundaries are pushed and

conversations get candid. Join your favorite hosts, me, WeezyWTF, and me, Mandy B, as we dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. Every Monday and Wednesday, we both invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms. Tune in and join in the conversation.

Listen to Decisions Decisions on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The forces shaping markets and the economy are often hiding behind a blur of numbers. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. that matters. You'll hear from Bloomberg journalists like Matt Levine. A lot of this meme stock stuff is, I think, embarrassing to the SEC. Follow the Big Take podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. Hi, Katherine. How are you doing? I'm great. You're back home. What's new in your world? We taped our special in Nashville. Well, I say our special because Joe directed it for me, which was such a delight. It was so nice to have a man not only be everything he is in my life, but to be able to go into something creative,

like shooting my next stand-up special and not have to deal with any of the minutia that I am not interested in, which is camera angles, jib shots, gimbal shots. There are all sorts of cameras that I've never fucking heard of, and I don't want to know anything more about them. Curtains and drapery and lighting and la, la, la, la.

Joe did everything for me. He arranged everything. He just asked me to pick out certain colors and this and that, and then went in and got on stage at like 9 in the morning at the theater with my producers, Michelle and Shannon, who are an incredible producing team. And I he goes, come in at 430, honey, do whatever you need to do to get in the zone and just come in at 430. And it was the most seamless experience I've ever had. And I am so grateful to have not only a partner, but somebody who is in this world that I operate in.

You have shorthand. Yeah. And he's cool and has style like, you know, so I don't have to think about any of that. Yeah. And I'm just it was just a delight. So we're home now. We've been on the road for three weeks. Wow. And we're home. So it's time for me to debloat because this travel section really got after me. Yes. Drinking, eating, all the good things. Drinking, eating, traveling, constipation. I'm just like, what is that? Why do you, when you travel, you don't go to the bathroom? I don't like that at all. And then I tried this new product, this green drink, which I was like, great, because it makes you go to the bathroom a lot.

But then you're constipated for two days after. So I think it cleans you out so much that you've got nothing left to give for two days. So our plane ride home was just long, long, long because I just wanted to detox. I'm feeling already so much better being home. Good. And you kind of make your own choices and eat what you want to eat that makes you feel good. My therapist and I have been talking a lot about that, like mindfulness and intuitive eating, eating what you know in a half an hour is gonna make your body feel good. Right. And just like doing those little swaps. Yes. Yes. Yes. Because it's nice. And like eating clean makes such a difference in your mental clarity. And like, for me, that is everything because I hate feeling foggy and on the road, inevitably, I start to drink, I start to eat badly, you know, you make

poor decisions when you're hungover, you think you're going to drink, I start to eat badly, you know, you make poor decisions when you're hungover, you think you're going to be able to stick to your diet, even when you drink, but it's not like that you wake up, you have a bad night of sleep, then you need more food for fuel comfort. Yeah. And then you go and make bad decisions. And when I eat clean, I'm just I have higher energy levels. Yeah, absolutely. And you just like feel better, like physically, you don't get that, like you said, tons of bloating. You don't get that nauseous feeling if you're, you know, having a potato chip or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. I had a bag of Cheetos on the road. It was my first bag of Cheetos probably in like two years. Yeah.

And yeah, and I farted for three days. So I'm not eating Cheetos again. It's so disgusting. I did get to see my nephew, though. We picked him up. He was in Detroit. I had a show in Ontario, Windsor. So we picked him up in Detroit and drove across the bridge to Canada with him. We're trying to deprogram him from his ultra conservative views. Not ultra, but too conservative for my liking. His mother has been programming him for a long time. Indoctrinating him is how I like to frame it. She's a Russian nationalist. So we had to, you know, say and we did all of us had a really good time kind of debating back and forth with him about what he thinks is the real state of things. Yeah. Did you hear feel some movement on his? No, because he's 19. My security guy, Buddha, was there. And he's like, you know, Charles, I remember when I was 19. I believe that

shit, too. Yeah. You know, like he he said things like, oh, you know, I don't know if, I don't believe racism is as big of a problem as people make it out to be. And it's like. Probably not if you're white. You're, you wouldn't know. How would you fucking know? You're white and you're 19 and your whole life is set up for success. Yeah.

Is he in college? Yeah, he's in college. He's interning. And I mean, thankfully he's in college because he's going to be around other people that will hopefully open his eyes and mind up to things but he's still upset that he didn't get into you know the college he wanted to get into and you know he thinks that somebody else took his spot that was maybe less qualified and we had to explain to him why that's not even an issue so shut the fuck up if you didn't get a 4.0 then yeah no yeah It's not someone else's fault. Martha came to my show.

That's so good. Yeah, Martha Stewart came to my show in, God, it's so hard to remember where I just was. Fort Chester? Yes. Amazing. Good memory. Yes, she and her crew came. That was fun.

That's lovely. And Joe came on stage with us, so it was good to see Martha out and about. Good. Can you believe she's 80 years old? I cannot. She's, like, still very beautiful. I know. Radiant, even. Yes. Yes, radiant 80 years old? I cannot. She's like still very beautiful. I know.

Radiant even. Yes. Yes. Radiant. That's what I said. I said luminous. She really is. Joe's like, because we looked it up at lunch after Joe met her outside.

Joe's like, how old is that woman? I mean, she seems young. And I was like, yeah, I know. I go, I think she's probably late 70s. And then I looked it up and she's 80. Yeah. People are getting older. People are getting older.

People are getting older. It's happening. One of my great grandmothers said, you never truly mature until you hit 80. Really? So maybe she's mature now. Well, what about people who don't hit 80? I mean, what's their story? I don't know.

You never get to mature, I guess. I definitely don't feel fully mature. And I don't know when that's going to hit me because I'm fucking 47. So I would like that to hit sooner than later. Although it doesn't sound super fun to be mature. Like that just sounds, I feel like I'm already less fun than I used to be. Like I want to go to bed at 930. Last night, Joe and I were up and, and he came home at like 6.30 and I had already taken my edible with dinner. So I was fading out around. I was already like tired at 6.30, but I just came back from the East Coast.

So I was kind of, I use that excuse when it suits me that I was on East Coast time. Of course, of course. Only when it suits me. And I'm like, well, it's 9.30 and I usually like to go to bed around 10.30, you know? But I was fading out. And he's like, do you want to go out and get a juice somewhere?

And I just looked at him like, no. Like out of the house? I don't want to fucking leave the house. I don't want to go anywhere. I fell asleep on the sofa. We watched one episode of The Staircase to get him up to speed. The fictionalized version. I was going to say, yeah, the scripted one.

The scripted version, not fictionalized. Because I was toggling back and forth between The Stair yeah, the scripted one. The scripted version, not fictionalized. Because they actually say, because I was toggling back and forth between the staircase, the HBO Max one, and then going to Netflix to see like, oh, is that girlfriend of his, the documentarian in the staircase documentary? But then I was like, no, idiot, you're high. No documentarian puts themselves in the documentary. Unless you're Michael Moore. Especially when they're fucking the person that is starring in the documentary. So that didn't make any sense. But that show is so disturbing

and that guy is so guilty. I mean, truly. It's just so ridiculous. And then the sex scenes, like that sex scene of him eating her ass in the kitchen. I heard about this. I haven't seen it yet.

I've seen the documentary, but I haven't seen the sexual one. Well, it's obviously not in the documentary, but it is, because they took a little license with that. Eating her ass in the kitchen, and it's like, first of all, who's ready to get their ass eaten in the middle of the afternoon? I mean,

you need to prep for that. And then there was another really gross sex scene between Toni Collette and Colin Firth. I mean, Colin Firth really pulls it off, because he plays a very, he is disturbing, you know, and creepy and like. Yeah, I mean, he's so good. Yeah.

He's so good. Yeah, yeah, he's a really, yeah, he's a really good actor because even when they interview him behind the scenes for The Staircase, you're like, oh, you're actually sexy in real life. You've made yourself kind of unsexy. Not kind of, but what I still don't understand is if my father, like if my mother was found at the bottom of the stairwell by my father,

even if it was my birth father, I would not be on his side. There is no chance that I would believe any of that horse shit. So the fact that four of his children are so fucked up that they believe that their father is innocent when everything is pointing to the fact that he is not. Yeah. Makes me irate. Big spoiler alert. I don't even know if I should say this to you, but what happened in his past. Yeah.

I mean, especially after you find that out, it's like, wait a minute. Well, who cares about a spoiler alert? Because either you saw the show or you didn't. And I want to say there's a scene in the movie or one of the things where they say, oh, you. There is no such thing as a serial staircase killer. Right. Well, I think we found. I'm like, there is now.

Yeah. This is one. Like, it's not two accidents. Yeah. It's just not right. And then the other ex-wife from the past who's all, you know, out of sorts. I'm just like, she's a hot mess, too, and has been brainwashed. Yeah.

Or brain injured, you know? Yeah. Good point. So anyway, that's been keeping us busy for a while, but I think we're going to move on to Atlanta now because I'm behind in Atlanta and I want to catch up with that because I hear that's a really good show. Yeah. We watched the first couple of seasons of that and really enjoyed it, but then it's taken kind of so long for new seasons to come out that we've sort of fallen off the wagon with that. But we've got to jump back on that train. Well, before we get to all the fun stuff, we'll take a quick break. Okay.

Sounds good. We'll be right back. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like... Why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal?

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Oh, our guest today is an advice columnist himself. You probably know him from his advocacy work on the It Gets Better campaign. He is a co-writer of the upcoming film called Spoiler Alert, and he is the host of Savage Lovecast, which is in its 17th season. Please welcome Dan Savage. Hi, Dan. Hey, Chelsea. Hi, it's nice to see you again. The last time we saw each other was at a dinner party that we were filming for my Netflix show, right?

Yeah, your house. I made Jennifer Garner sad. That's what I remember about that dinner. Jennifer Garner, what, was sad? Yeah, because she was talking about Republicans and reaching them. And I kind of felt that there was no reaching them. And I think I've been proven right over the last few years. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I forgot about that conversation. Of course, we were talking about that then. It's funny that the conversation probably would be exactly the same at this point. Yeah, we are trapped. I know. Terrible times we live in, right? Yes. Yes. Very terrible. Well, I'm very excited to have you on today because Dan Savage,

for those of you who are not familiar with him, has been the premier advice giver on his podcast, which is called Savage Lovecast, which is in its 17th season. So we have somebody who really, really has the skill set to answer questions, not unlike yours truly. I'm sorry, not like yours truly. Definitely unlike yours truly. You know, when you look up advice in the dictionary, all it says is opinion about what could or should be done. The only qualification you need to give advice is somebody asked you for it. That's it. That's exactly right. And you know what? My justification for even doing a podcast like this, Dan, is that I was giving unsolicited advice to people for so many years that I figure why not

have people actually ask me questions so that it is warranted. Solicited advice is better than unsolicited advice, just like solicitedited advice is better than unsolicited advice, just like solicited dick pics are better than unsolicited dick pics. Thank you for saying that so I didn't have to. Now tell me, do people assume now, do people come up to you whenever they see you, recognize you, expecting to, asking for advice in real life all the time? Yeah, it's happened in restaurants. It's happened in airports.

It's happened at urinals where the person standing next to me recognizes me. That's my favorite place for a fan interaction is right next to a urinal. Yeah, yeah, mine too. What's really weird is because not as many people are familiar with my face, but people have been listening for a long time. And so it can startle someone to hear my voice come out of a person as opposed to their headphones or earbuds. And so that, you know, I'll be on the phone with somebody and somebody in line at Starbucks will turn around because they're shocked to hear me standing behind them talking.

That's nice, though, for people to recognize your voice, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, it is nice. I like it. It's, you know, it's kind of nice to not be recognized on site all the time, because I'm not on television a lot. But it's still nice to know that there are lots of people out there listening to my podcast after all these years. Exactly. Exactly. After 17 years. I mean, you were like the one of the original people to have a podcast. Yeah. And I've been doing the podcast Savage Love Cast for 17 years and writing my dumb sex advice column, Savage Love, that the podcast grew out of for 30 years. Holy shit. Really? Yeah. Since 1991. I have been at this a while. Oh my God. So what every week you have to turn

something in on what day? What day is your delivery date? Friday. The craziest part about writing a sex advice column for so long is I am now giving sex advice to the children of people I gave sex advice to 30 years ago before their children were born. So adults who didn't exist, whose parents I gave sex advice to, are now writing me for sex advice. And it kind of blows my mind. That's funny. So how do you justify giving advice after all this time?

Like, how do you keep your information flowing so that you know what's going on in the world? And kind of like, what information do you consume, whether it be books or, you know, media? Like, how do you stay fresh so that you are actually giving the most sound advice? You know, to zoom out for a second, and this is me to get a little airy-fairy about my format and genre, the advice column, the original one in print, was advice columns really pioneered what then blogs and the internet made standard for writers? In an advice column, you know, going back 100 years, going back to Ann Lander's column for decades that I grew up reading, readers wrote back, and a columnist would print letters from people who disagreed with the columnist

and engage in a debate that then didn't become kind of standard for journalists and writers until the internet came along. You know, it used to be if you were a writer at a newspaper, there might be a letter to the editor about you, but you didn't respond to it. You didn't engage with that critic. But in an advice column, you engage with your critics all the time. And so the people I learn most from, the people who keep me up to date and current are my readers and my listeners who are always getting in my face about whatever it is I may have said about what they agreed with, what they didn't agree with. And there's always been this back and forth. You know, when I started Savage Love, I called it

a conversation I'm having in a bar with my friends about our sex lives when we're drunk. And originally the column was a joke. You know, I was a gay guy giving straight people sex advice 30 years ago. And I was going to treat straight people with the same contempt that straight advice columnists like Ann Landers had always treated gay people with. And I was going to do it for six months or a year, but then straight people who had never been treated with that particular kind of contempt before really liked it and thought it was really funny as opposed to really traumatizing, and started sending me real questions. So it kind of accidentally

became a real advice column and then a real advice podcast. And how would you rate yourself in applying your own advice to your own life? Well, you know, more than once, my husband has turned to me and quoted me back to me when I haven't been living up to my own standards around being honest or using my words or being direct or being GGG or my most, I think one of the pieces of advice I'm proudest of, fuck first, which is, you know, before you go out to dinner, fuck, don't wait till you get home from dinner because you're going to be too full to fuck. Originally, this is advice I came up with for Valentine's Day because on February 15th, I would get all these letters from people who didn't get fucked on Valentine's Day who were worried about the state of their relationships. And I would write them back and say, so what happened on Valentine's Day? And they went out

to dinner and they had wine and cocoa van and chocolate mousse and more wine. And no one wants to get fucked with a gut full of cocoa van and chocolate mousse. Fuck first, then go to dinner. And so when I, you know, my husband or my boyfriend's horny and they want to fuck and I'm like, oh, let's do it later. They're like, fuck first. Who said that? Who said fuck first? You did. Let's fuck now. Well, first of all, that's great advice. Everyone should fuck first anyway, even whether you're talking about eating or not. I feel like getting fucking out of the way right away with a new potential love interest will save everybody a lot of time because you have to find out what parts are working and what's going to, because some people are into some kinky shit

and some people are not into some kinky shit. So it's good to find out what is happening in that arena before you even go to dinner, because otherwise that's just a waste of a meal, in my opinion. That's how gay men do it. Yeah. Well, maybe I am a gay man. I, I, the other night, Joe, my boyfriend and I were ordering room service and I knew I said, we should fuck first because once we eat this, I'm not going to want to fuck. And I, we had 30 minutes before room service came and I was like, let's get this going. And I knew because I was like, we're in a hotel room. It's going to happen at some point. So let me get this out of the way. It was more of a formality. I don't make it sound very romantic because it quite frankly, it wasn't. I was just making sure that I would be able to relax after I ate my cheeseburger.

Which is really important. Also, you know, primarily I give this advice to people about holy days of fucking obligation, like a day when you got to get fucked or you're going to be sad or think something's wrong. Your wedding day, fuck first. Don't wait till after the reception. Stand at the altar with cum running down your legs. That's how you do it. That's good advice, too, because who knows what kind of shape you're going to be in at

the end of your wedding. You're getting exhausted. Yeah, and shit-faced probably most often. Well, not everybody, but a lot of people do get shit-faced. And I get those letters. I didn't, you know, we got married and we didn't have sex on our wedding day. So sad. Well, yeah, you should have had sex on your wedding day that morning before the wedding.

Catherine, what's your view on being too full to fuck? I totally agree. I mean, you can actually, while you were saying fuck first, I was like looking over here at my engineer, who I'm also married to. And fucking, she's fucking the engineer. Yeah, absolutely. You have to fuck before you go to dinner.

But to the wedding day thing, my brother and his wife fell asleep counting money on their wedding day and never had sex. That's pretty hot though. I know, isn't that great? That's like a good reason to not have sex. The second That's pretty hot, though. I know. Isn't that great? That's like a good reason to not have sex. The second best thing. Yes. Yes. But no, totally agree. Fuck first. Yeah, I feel like that's a good rule of thumb to live by, especially if you're an adult. If

you're a young adult and you're experimenting with sex for the first time, don't listen to what I'm saying. But if you're over 30 and you've had sex with a lot of people, just I would say, just get it out of the way as soon as possible yeah for more reasons than one and then you know if you fuck before you go out and then you catch a group and you get home you want to fuck again great yeah hot there you go and then that's hot and then you're over yes then you're over delivering and you don't feel this sense of tension or you know because oh my god we have to fuck when we get home you already fucked and so you won't be tense about. And then if you want to fuck when you get home, awesome, Yahtzee. Let me ask you another question. Do you feel like since you are such a good advice

giver and you're known for that, well, it's your career. Do you feel like when you take your personal life into account that it matches and is commensurate to the advice that you dole out, like you have imposter syndrome. Absolutely. Advice is easy to give and hard to follow. I get in trouble sometimes because I'm slow to tell people to break up or get a divorce, but I'm happy to get under the hood and tinker. And I think, you know, I've been with my husband for 30 years as well. And I think that being in such a long, long, long-ass term relationship, there definitely been times when I thought I should leave, we should get a divorce. And then I didn't, in part because it's such a hassle to break up, to separate everything,

to get a divorce. And so I hesitated. And then when we got to the other side of the crisis, or we figured it out or worked it out, I was glad that we hadn't. But there's definitely been a few times in my relationship where I was like, Dan Savage would tell you, Dan Savage, right now to get a divorce. I know. Because I sometimes find myself going like, oh, wait, I wouldn't agree with this at all. The way I'm behaving right now, I would advise somebody against that. Oh, yeah. In all fairness to my husband, there have been times when I thought Dan Savage would definitely tell your husband right now, Dan Savage, to get divorced your ass, too. And what books do you have you read that you would like to share that have had the most impact on you? Advice or and State of Affairs, a book about sex in a long-term relationship, desire in a long-term relationship.

Those are the best two books I think anybody can read about sex and relationships. She's a couples counselor, a TED talker. She's a podcaster herself. Absolutely genius, Esther Perel. One of her observations is that to desire is to want. And the paradox of a long-term relationship is how do you want what you have, what you already have? And if you want to try to figure that out, if you're an exclusive, committed, monogamous, long-term relationship, Esther Perel is really the best place to go. You know, you raised something like I'm coming up,

I think we're almost at our one-year anniversary my boyfriend and I. And and it's interesting because it's like every time you start a relationship, it's like youth. It's like the saying youth is wasted on the young. Right. You start a relationship. You really just don't believe it's going to happen to you. Like that that feeling and those endorphins and all of the stuff that comes with wanting to someone wanting somebody and wanting them badly all the time you just fantasize about fucking fuck dinner you nobody even wants dinner at that point you know it's like the first two months where you're like you lose 10 pounds because you're so excited about who you're having sex with and having sex with them and then real life starts to settle in and then you gain that weight back and then you get used to having that person in your life and you acclimate to all of those things and everything everyone tells you becomes true. You know, you don't have that ripping, roaring, raging desire anymore because you've become a union with this person. Like

you're a team and the newness is gone. And it's funny that it doesn't matter how old you get, you don't believe that's going to happen to you. And it happens every time. And good advice should be realistic about that. Like a lot of people limp around thinking there's something wrong with them, something wrong with their relationship, something they should do or say to get back to that infatuated, I want to drink all your spit feeling of the first few months. And that's never coming back. And you have to figure out what in the long-term relationship compensates what's different and also interesting or valuable about

that long-term relationship, about the sex and the intimacy in a long-term relationship. And it's going to be different, but the whole relationship advice industrial complex is selling often delusions and convincing people that, you know, if you just buy this book or listen to this show, you can fix it. You can adjust all the dials and then you'll be fucking each other like you were fucking each other in the first month. And that's just a lie. So Dan, you really coined the phrase monogamish, right? And you and your husband have been open for quite some time. Is that something you feel has increased your attraction level to your husband? Oh, absolutely. And it's also something, you know, Esther Perel said that even if you're not going to

fuck other people, sometimes it'll reignite your desire for your partner. If you see your partner through someone else's eyes, like go somewhere where somebody might flirt with your partner, and you'll suddenly realize how attractive your partner is again and your partner will also feel affirmed and desirable and that's important and gay men are really good at this because you know most gay relationships aren't monogamous but and gay men also go to places where like men are it's not that men gay men behave this way because they're gay men gay men behave this way because they're men and are just like dogs and to like go to a gay bar with kind of a sexually heightened a lot of erotic tension and see people who want to fuck your

husband reminds you that you want to fuck your husband too and you wanted to fuck your husband first and then you'll go home and fuck your husband i was funny you say that i was having a conversation with my trainer ben bruno the other day and he because he's as straight as an arrow and he was talking about that show the staircase haveaircase. Have you watched that, Dan? I haven't yet, but I read the article. It was based on the original story. Okay. So the televised version that they turned into a series with Toni Collette and Colin Firth. There's a scene where he goes to this pornographic store or pornography store, I guess magazines. Yeah. Because it takes place in the 80s. So he's like looking at a dirty magazine.

He and this other guy, he's supposedly a straight, you know, married man, but he's fucking men on the side. He goes to this pornography store. There's another guy. They make eye contact once. Then they meet in a back room and don't even speak. Like one of them has his back facing the opening of this

area. And the guy comes in and they just start fucking. And my trainer, Ben Bruna goes, I mean, when that's so unrealistic, he goes that two men just start fucking. I go, think about what you're saying. Men are, men will fuck anything. And if you get two of them together, they're not going to fucking talk. The only reason anyone's talking is there because there's a woman involved right straight men would do everything gay men do if straight men could but straight men can't because women won't and why won't women it's not that there aren't horny women out there who might be up for casual or even anonymous sex but slut shaming and sexual violence and the risk of pregnancy and disease all fall disproportionately out to women's shoulders which ups the opportunity cost for women of being sexually impulsive well those things

aren't necessarily a problem when two men are going to get together and it always like blows my mind when a straight guy is like you gay men in your bushes and bathhouses so disgusting and i always look at them and say if i told you there was a building full of women who wanted to get fucked right now and didn't want to know your name or your phone number or ever see you again, you're telling me that straight men wouldn't go there, that straight men wouldn't be lined up around the block to get into that building. All a bathhouse, a gay bathhouse is, is a whorehouse staffed by volunteers. And there's no parallel in straight land. But if there were, straight guys would go. Yep. Absolutely. They're jealous. They're so jealous. They're so jealous of gay men's lifestyles because, yeah. And it's optional for gay men. Like, we shouldn't say, like, all gay men go to, I don't go to bathhouses. I have to know somebody's name. I'm very much,

my lesbian friends call me a lesbian. Like, I kind of have to know somebody's name. I'm very much, my lesbian friends call me a lesbian. Like I kind of have to know somebody a little bit before I can. And I couldn't, like when I first came out and I was gay, I was 18 years old. My friends took me to like those dirty bookstores where people had sex in the back. And I was just like, it's dark in there. Like what if one of my uncles comes in here? I don't want to accidentally blow one of my uncles who could be closeted and gay for all I know. So I was very squeamish. And thank God, thank God, because I came out in 1981. And so if I'd been like, yay, bathhouses, I'd probably be dead. Oh, yeah. Good point. Okay. There you go.

Okay. Well, on that note, Catherine, what do we have in store for us today? Oh, so many sex questions. We have... Perfect. Perfect. Dan, we have to put you to good use today. Okay. So forgive us in advance. Yeah. People are having a lot of sex. People are having not enough sex and everything in between. But we'll take a quick break and we'll be back with Dan Savage and Chelsea. Okay. Dan and I are just going to head over to a bathhouse and we'll be right back. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own

stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging.

Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason Bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The forces shaping markets and the economy are often hiding behind a blur of numbers.

So that's why we created The Big Take from Bloomberg Podcasts, to give you the context you need to make sense of it all. Every day in just 15 minutes, we dive into one global business story that matters. You'll hear from Bloomberg journalists like Matt Levine. A lot of this meme stock stuff is, I think, embarrassing to the SEC. Amanda Mull, who writes our Business Week buying power column. Very few companies who go viral are like totally prepared for what that means. And Zoe Tillman, senior legal reporter. Courts are not supposed to decide elections. Courts are not really supposed to play a big role

in choosing our elected leaders. It's for the voters to decide. Follow the Big Take podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. And we are back. That was satisfying. It was. I really enjoyed that. And I enjoyed watching. Oh was satisfying. It was. I really enjoyed that.

And I enjoyed watching. Oh, you're welcome, Catherine. I like being observed. Our first question comes from A. A is a woman. Dear Chelsea, I don't know how to say this, so I'm coming straight out with it. My husband and I just wed three months ago

and we're not having sex. It's been about a month and we've had sex once, which felt like he was doing it out of pity for me. He says it's because of arguments we've been having and that things will get better, but I have concerns. Firstly, I'm worried that this will continue for a prolonged period. It seems like every couple I know that isn't having sex

started their dry spell this way. I'm also worried that he just isn't attracted to me anymore. There have been a couple times I've noticed him looking at other women lately. I trust him and I don't think he would cheat, but it's hurtful to see when I know we're obviously lacking chemistry at the moment. We used to be all over each other and now he won't even kiss me. It's really hard for me not to take it personally. And at this point, I feel like I'm desperately vying for my husband to have sex with me. It makes me feel pathetic. We've talked about it ad nauseum, and it seems to make things worse and more awkward. My question is, how do we get

over this hump? I don't want to pressure myself or him, but I feel like we just have to do it before things continue on this dry path. Thanks so much for reading. I love your podcast. You give the best advice. And if there's someone that can help me, I know it's you. Sincerely, A. Okay. Well, Dan, I'm going to let you take this from the top since this is in your wheelhouse. MDMA and a weekend at a cabin might help. You know, I think it's actually that is good advice. I think it's significant that the sex dried up so soon after getting married. And a lot of straight people have it in their heads consciously or subconsciously that marriage means the end of fun, adventure, possibility. And that can really smother desire. You know, you see

straight people doing this thing where like, we're gonna have a bachelorette party or a bachelor party. And what's being what the implicit statement of a bachelor or bachelorette party is, after you're married, no more fun. This is your last chance to have fun. And so maybe the husband, you know, thinks that because they're married now, the fun has to stop or the fun has stopped. And it's, you know, marriage for some people comes with a lot of deoroticizing baggage. You know, he now looks at you as not his hot girlfriend that he's fucking, but his wife. And so I think maybe in couples counseling, you could dig down there. But I got to say,

if at three months you're not fucking and you're having to get into couples counseling about not fucking, I don't have a lot of hope for your marriage, that this isn't a problem that you should be facing three months in. If he has some sort of Madonna whore complex where he could fuck his girlfriend but not his wife, that's work that he needed to do before he got married, when he was single, on his own. Trying to do that work now with you there, tapping your foot and patiently waiting for Dick, I don't know if he's going to be able to do it. Yeah, I would also like to say that that may be true. Like that is a concerning sign. But you did mention that you've been arguing a lot. And I know when I'm arguing, I don't want to have sex with the person that I'm arguing with. Like that is not a turn on. And if you're belaboring the

point about not having sex, that also is not a turn on. So instead of overly, overly discussing something like ad nauseum, as you mentioned, I would say to really put a pin in the subject of sex and let things happen in a natural way and give it a minute, give it a minute so that you can actually naturally come to each other, you know, after a fun night out, or I don't know what you prefer. Like if you guys are morning people or night people, just let some time pass where you're not rehashing the fact that you're not having sex so that there can be a natural coming together. Because if you guys already were all over each other

at some point, then that's a pretty good indication that you have that chemistry and you can get back there. But there was also something, I mean, him checking out other women and you noticing that, like I can understand that you're feeling slightly paranoid and that's coming across in your letter and there's an air of desperation in your letter, which is fine because you're being honest and it's important for you to be honest with your feelings. But I would really, really implore that you have to take a step back and not make it a

mandate. You know, let it, let, let, the conversations aren't working in the way that you're hoping they will. It's been this amount of time and you guys aren't being sexually active. So what you're doing, your approach isn't working right now. So you should do the opposite, you know, and take a couple steps back, like I said,

and wait until there's an opportune moment that makes sense, that isn't you like saying, hey, I want to seduce you you know in this way it's just like a coming together and there can be physical touching in between that time you know like hand holding and stuff like that does have an impact on people and their closeness you know some people are touchy-feely and some people aren't so you know that better than than I would about you and your partner. But like, let those things develop and don't put so much pressure on the situation.

Because as soon as you overly discuss and argue about a subject like that, it's very hard for somebody who doesn't have a reasonable explanation as to what they're feeling to perform. There's clearly something going on with him. I think it's great advice to put a pin in it, the argument about sex. I would also encourage you to think about the rest of the shit that you're arguing about right now. There's arguments

that have been going on prior to the sex. One of the ideas I toss around on my show a lot is the price of admission, that there are certain prices of admission that you pay to be in a relationship with someone. Not everything can be resolved. There are certain conflicts you have to agree that you're going to step around. And often, you know, when people marry, not just the husband having some weird idea that marriage is the end of fun, people marry and then think, well, now I have to iron out all, we have to like fight out everything that we are in conflict about, come to a resolution, solve these problems. And the real trick of any long-term relationship is identifying the problems you can't solve and to stop trying,

to stop creating conflict about things that no amount of conflict is going to resolve and step around those things. I don't think anyone should put up with emotional abuse, physical abuse, neglect, which itself can be a kind of abuse. But if you're fighting because his socks are on the floor or you're fighting because she doesn't load the dishwasher the way you think it should be loaded, you cannot have those fights. You can just reload the dishwasher. You can be the one who picks the laundry up off the floor and then look around and see the things he might be doing or she might be doing that they're putting up with your bullshit. And so much of the conflict I see in LTRs among my friends,

among my listeners and callers is people having fights about things. They could just go, you know what? It doesn't matter. This is a price of admission. I'm willing to pay to be in this relationship and I'm not going to complain about it anymore or try to run it to ground anymore. My husband is kind of a slob and we used to fight about that. or try to run it to ground anymore. You know, my husband is kind of a slob and we used to fight about that. And then one day I just started picking up after him and it's like, you know what? This picking up after him is a lot easier than arguing about him picking up after himself. Yeah. And it just remember, like, it's not a turn on to fight. I know a lot of people think that they get in a fight and make up sex is great, but that's like a

temporary thing. Also, if you're in a constant state of up sex is great, but that's like a temporary thing also. If you're in a constant state of arguing, it's unlikely that you're going to want to have sex with each other. So yeah, beware those people who mistake conflict for passion. Exactly. So yeah. So take this advice, put a pin in it. And if the situation continues in six months, then yeah, you do have an issue and you do need to go to counseling. But I would say right now to take the pressure off yourself and take the pressure off of him and try to just enjoy each other right now. And hopefully, naturally, this thing, your sexual life will come back.

Can I give one more piece of advice? Absolutely. We don't know how long they were dating before they got married. So it may just be a coincidence that they got married and then it fell apart. Maybe it was starting to fall apart sexually. When you think about the sex you had early in a relationship, it was risky. Like your adrenaline was pumping. You're getting naked with somebody that you barely knew. They could be an ax murderer. You could be crazy. Like it felt sex at the start is risky and dangerous and risk is arousing. Sex in an LTR, the risk goes away. And so sometimes people

mistake the LTR and they think something's missing in the partnership. And no, you're the same people you were. It's just like, there's no danger anymore. And what you miss is the danger. And so, you know, at the beginning of a new sexual relationship, you're the adventure they're on, they're the adventure you're on when you're're together 10 years and you want to feel that again, that kind of risk, danger, adrenaline, those adventurous feelings, you've got to go on an adventure together. You've got to engineer risk into your sexual relationship that at the beginning of your sexual relationship was just present without any effort, without any intentionality. And so you've been together 10 years and it's not exciting now like it was

at the beginning. Of course it's not. Go have sex in public. Go have sex in a sex club. Get out of your bedroom. Get off the bed. Go to a bathhouse. Different time. Go to a bathhouse. Get a cabin in the woods for the weekend and go fuck and then take some MDMA and you'll remember why you loved each other. You should read Love Drugs by Brian Earp, which is the science behind go to the cabin for the weekend with your LTR partner and take some MDMA. What does LTR stand for? Forgive me for asking, Dan, but... Long-term relationship. Oh, okay. Good to know. I was like, is that latent? I'm like, what? Trying to figure out the initials there. We can't prescribe Molly to people or MDMA because we're not medical practitioners, but you certainly are free to do whatever drugs you think you want to do. So you heard that here first. And keep us posted,

please. We want to know what happens. Yes, thanks, A. Well, our next question comes from Isela. She's here on the phone. She says, Dear Chelsea, I'm a 35-year-old Mexican immigrant, mother of two girls, five and two. My five-year-old is at that age where she's super curious and inquisitive. She's wise beyond her years, incredibly smart, and is amazing at expressing her feelings. I'm proud of the girl I'm raising, given how different my parenting is from the parenting I received in my childhood. I've noticed lately that she's exploring her body. I catch her sitting in awkward

positions where I can tell she's rubbing up against something. And although I know she isn't doing anything wrong, I know it's natural. An immediate and irrational anger comes over me, and I've yelled at her over something seemingly harmless to her. I do not want to confuse her, and I definitely don't want to shame her. I was shamed as a child and teenager and even as a woman for being sexual, and I don't want to do that to her was shamed as a child and teenager and even as a woman for being sexual and I don't want to do that to her. But I don't know why I react this way. I've looked up scientific articles,

I'm a public health graduate student, to find out whether this is healthy child behavior and I think it is, but there's not much literature out there that I can find on how to talk to young children about their sexuality. Anyhow, I wish I could just talk about this with other women, but even that feels taboo. How can I overcome this reaction so I can be cool and collected for my child when she needs me? If I can't deal with this now, what will I be

like when she's older and inevitably has a sex life? Saludos, Isela. Hi. Hi. Hi. How are you? I'm good. I'm very much enjoying this. Thank you for having me. I get this question sometimes where people, their small child begins, you know, touching themselves and they don't want to sex shame the child. They don't want to give the child hangups, but it's important for your kid not to wind up in first grade touching themselves in a way where they will be shamed or picked on or stigmatized. So the balance you have to strike is communicating to your kid that there's a time and a place for this, and this is a private kind of touch, and you're not to touch yourself this way in front

of your mom, in front of a television, in front of classmates. This is a private time thing. And I don't think that's shaming. It's correcting and it's setting your kid up to avoid the potential negative fallout of not hearing that as a kid, not knowing when and where this kind of pleasurable self-touch is appropriate. And I don't think that's shaming that you feel this anger rise up in you. That's something to maybe unpack with a therapist, because that is a kind of looking at your child and fearing that your child is a sexual person. And one of the things that, you know, if you're the parent of kids, and I'm a parent, one of the things you realize pretty quickly is that kids aren't sexually neuter or neutral, that kids already have a kind of... I'm not saying kids should be sexually active. I'm not saying it's right for anybody to be attracted to a child. But kids have agency and some sort of sexual self-awareness, even at age five,

and a sense of what their bodies will be capable of later in life as adults, a dawning awareness of it. And it's your job as the parent to channel that to the appropriate time and place so your kid isn't attacked, scolded, shamed by peers, by authority figures they may encounter outside the home. You want to have that in its right channel and have your kid's head screwed on straight about that before they're out there in the world moving independently of you. Yeah, I mean, or jerking off on monkey bars, which is what I was doing growing up. Actually, no, they weren't monkey bars. It was a swing set with the metal poles in between the swings. And I would ride those to give myself the feeling over my clothes. And I would ride those bars and then the recess bell would ring

and I would be climaxing. So I couldn't go back into school because I was busy. And the teacher came out and basically told me that I had to stop rubbing my vagina against the metal posts during recess. Otherwise I wouldn't be allowed to go to recess anymore. And so then I just found different appliances to put under my desk. I mean, I jerked off so much in school between third and fourth grade with whatever appliance. I used pencils, anything. And I would never want to touch my vagina directly because that to me was disgusting. But finding any other things to eroticize myself was, you know, open game. Even at my parents' dinner table, I would take a ladle and I would rub it in between my legs and I would jerk off while our family was having dinner. And nobody said anything to me until my brother said, can

someone please tell her to stop? She does it all the time. And that was when I first got caught out and I was shamed and I didn't masturbate again until probably I was in my late thirties because I thought it was so embarrassing. Oh, my God. Yes, shame can carry you a long way. It stays with you a long time. But, Isayla, the reason why you're having the reaction you're having is because your parents, you were shamed, or whoever shamed you for doing that when you were younger is why.

It's pretty much that simple. We perpetuate those things. Whatever you were shamed about, you feel shame about. And then seeing your daughter, that's coming out of wanting to protect her, you know? And everything that Dan said is perfectly accurate. You want to make sure that she doesn't have shame around touching herself, but that she knows it's something that she has to do in the privacy of her own bedroom and that she has to do by herself and not with anyone else around, certainly not any adults or other children around. So it's totally fucking normal for your

kid to touch themselves. Everybody deals with this. So you're not alone. And I would also say, you know, please start talking to other mothers about this because it's not as taboo as you think that's in your head. And that's the way that you were raised. It really isn't taboo. Anybody who has a little girl or a little boy has experienced them fiddling around with their private parts. I would just want to add that you brought up the fact that you sometimes feel an anger rise up in you. And I think there's two ways to see that anger and, you know, anger that your daughter is doing this thing that's sexual but if you just shift your perspective a little bit i think that can be fear for your daughter and that fear is a very motivating thing for parents you want to protect your kids and a kid you want to

you know sex is dangerous sex is risky sex is scary Sex is bigger and stronger than all of us. Sex created us. And to see your kid already in the grip or thrall of sex is to see your kid in danger. And so it might help you to understand your emotions at that moment, not as anger, but as concern and fear and not unreasonable concern and fear for your kid's safety as a parent to channel, you know, this kind of touch, which is appropriate for her age right now, in a way where it's not a danger to her. And to really understand that some of your fear or anger is anticipating what sex is going to mean for your kid, for your family, for the risks she's going to run when she is an adult, when she is an older teenager and becomes sexually active. So don't fault yourself for that anger. Just like shift your perspective and see that anger as legitimate motivating concern for your kid.

I appreciate you saying that so much because I think you hit the nail right on the head. I think fear is definitely the, you know, the back, you know, like in the background here. And I think there's also a lot of cultural stuff that we're carrying that, you know, in my family still even talking about it later with my grandma, she was like, do not say it's private, just discourage it, period. Like, don't do it at all. It could be bad for her. And I was like, wait, like, we need to change the way that we talk about this.

We need to talk about it, first of all. And that's the reason why I even submitted my question, just even talking about it. It's important to me because I look around and I'm like, who do I talk about this, you know, with? And I want to change the conversation. I know it's normal. And I've read about it. And I see her and I know she change the conversation. I know it's normal and I've read about it and I see her and I know she's doing nothing wrong. And I remember what I was being shamed

and I do not want to do that to her. So it's irrational. I recognize that on my part, that it's completely irrational, but it just boils in me and comes out. So I think it is the fear and the thinking that she might be in danger. And having heard growing up, like conflicting advice about sex, don't do it, but, or you're going to do it, but, you know, so it's, it's, it was very confusing and it was very hard,

very late into my life that I feel like I came into myself feeling confident about me being a sexual being. So I don't want that for her. Definitely. But you were shamed and that was traumatizing for you and took you time to overcome. You're not shaming your daughter. You're going to direct your daughter. You're going to parent your kid and help her channel these things in appropriate ways while

affirming that she's allowed to do these things, that these are pleasurable things. And so you are not shaming. Some parents get into their head that any correction and direction is shaming, and it's not. It comes from a very different place. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Thank you so much. And, you know, like any mothers that you have a close relationship with at school or any mothers that aren't at school with your children, just friends of yours that are also mothers, I would urge you to open up that conversation because you'd probably be doing a lot of people that favor because you're not the only one that feels like it's not being talked about enough. And your intention of just wanting to talk about it in a responsible way and not shaming your daughter is awesome. So, you know, don't be shy about that.

You know, that is a conversation worth having with people, getting different people's perspectives on how they handle the situation. You know, making sure your daughter understands it's okay. It's just a private thing. Take the butt out of it. You can do that. You need to be in your room. You know, it's a private thing. You don't have to make it the way, you know, you want to stop the cycle of what happened to you. You know, that's all everyone's goal should be to try not to recreate the trauma that had

been impressed upon you. And you're already doing that by being this thoughtful about it. Thank you. You're absolutely right. Thank you for having me. Sure. Thanks, Isayla. How cool to have a mom like that who's so forward thinking and like understands what her own behavior, the consequences that could have for her child and is working to take strides to remedy that. Oh, if somebody just had told me in my family like what I was doing, like I had I would be hiding behind the sofa and I would be rubbing. I always did it lying on my stomach, rubbing my pants underneath over my pants. But I would like have an ottoman covering the side of me. Like I thought I was being secretive. My whole family knew that I was masturbating all the time.

And no one said a fucking word to me. Like I wish somebody would have just said, hey, that's something you want to really keep to yourself. There's a time and a place, and the family roommate, the place, and dinner time, and the dining room table also was not the place. But that's our family, Dysfunction Junction. We are going to take a quick

break, so you can hear an ad, and then we'll be right back. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer.

Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today.

How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really? No, really. Yeah, really. No, really. Go to

reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The forces shaping markets and the economy are often hiding behind a blur of numbers. So that's why we created The Big Take from Bloomberg Podcasts, to give you the context you need to make sense of it all. Every day in just 15 minutes, we dive into one global business story that matters. You'll hear from Bloomberg journalists like Matt Levine. A lot of this meme stock stuff is, I think, embarrassing to the SEC.

Amanda Mull, who writes our Business Week buying power column. Very few companies who go viral are like totally prepared for what that means. And Zoe Tillman, senior legal reporter. Courts are not supposed to decide elections. Courts are not really supposed to play a big role in choosing our elected leaders. It's for the voters to decide. Follow the Big Take podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. Well, our next call is from Stephen.

Stephen says, Dear Chelsea, I said I'd give celibacy a go when I was 22 for four years to prove a point. Why? Yeah, what point? I did not fit into the gay lifestyle whatsoever and struggled to fit in with that community based on my relationship and marriage goals. Unfortunately, that started a shift in my life that continued for more than the original four years as planned. And as each year has gone by, I've become more and more afraid to get back on the horse, so to speak. Now it's been 12 years. Oh, my gosh. I've had the odd hookup here and there every year or so, enough that I can count on two hands.

But I'm petrified of men and have no clue how to date or what a normal relationship is or normal interactions with men. The pandemic is also of no help. I've moved in with my godmother, which has made my sexless life even less sexy. Given that you're someone who spent quite a few years with your legs in the air, I'm very jealous, really. Do you have any advice for me? Am I single forever, which may also be okay? Steven.

And he is here with us. Oh, good. Stephen, let's see you. Where are you, Stephen? How are you? Hi. Hi, Stephen. We have our special guest.

Dan Savage is here today. Oh, wow. That is special. Yeah, he's a gay man, so you're in luck. I'm well aware who he is. I've had my legs in there a few times myself. Well, thanks for having me. And nice to meet you all. It's nice to meet you too. Okay. So it's been a while, huh? It has. And yeah, 12 to 14 years, I'm still trying to figure out the math. It's between that somewhere.

So how old were you when you took your four-year break, when you decided to opt out? I was 20, 20, 21. It's often the case that our straight peers, my straight brothers were dating when they were 13, 14, 15 years old in high school. And when you're gay, you often don't start dating until later in life. You don't come out. And so when we're 20, we can feel like we're 13.

And like I said to the previous caller, sex is scary. And I can see you being afraid of sex, afraid of men at 20 and not having the same tools to handle dating and sex that even a woman of the same age who is into men might have. So I don't want to say you did something wrong by pumping the brakes there. I think setting an arbitrary four-year, I'm not going to date or have sex with anybody may have been a bit much. And you denied yourself the kind of furtive exploring sexual experiences that could have been formative and helped you, but it's not too late to start having those. True. Well, like you said, I was young and I thought I had something to prove. And I thought, because in general, life is over-sexualized, and especially in the gay world, it's sex, sex, sex. So I thought, it's holier than thou and could prove this four-year look at me thing.

And that coincided with a lot of trauma. So I was kind of hiding that. And this would be an easy way to not have to indulge in sex to prove this four-year thing. And then it just kept going on and on. And as the years go on, it just seems less and less attainable. Stephen, can I ask you a quick question? But you did have sex before you took this little hiatus, right? I did, yes. Or this big hiatus. Yeah, from the ages of 18 to 2021.

Okay. And did you have a lot of sex in those years? Not a lot. I had a health scare when I was 20, 21, that medical industry didn't treat me very well. And that caused a lot of trauma. And I was already a hypochondriac. So it was just easy to just shut everything down from there. You know, that stereotype, I should own it. Like earlier, I was joking about, you know, straight men would do everything gay men do if straight men could. Not all gay men do all those things we associate with gay male communities. Sometimes when someone says the gay world is all sex, sex, sex, well, that's the corner of the gay world that gets a lot of press and a lot of jokes, but it also gets a lot of attention.

If that's all you're seeing that's possible for you in gay land, I would say that's the only place maybe you're looking and you can turn your face away from that. Some people are like, but if i put i want a date or i want a monogamous relationship on my grinder profile or whatever i don't get as many responses well you don't get responses from guys who wouldn't want to date you right you don't get responses from guys who are only interested in sex and you aren't interested in those guys so scaring away those guys is actually good i get get more responses on Grindr with the faceless picture, so that says enough about Grindr.

Yeah. Well, yeah, but listen, Grindr's not the only spot. I mean, I was just with my gay friend. I wish I knew the spot that he uses. What's the new one that everyone's using? Scruffies? There's bunches of them. There's so many. I mean, there's myriad gay sites for you to be on, and you should use

your picture. You should actually put it all out there so that you are getting honest feedback and you're not tricking anybody or that, you know, you're setting yourself up for failure so that they come and see you on a date and realize they had different expectations. But regardless of all of that, like you did this, it sounds now out of it was born out of a traumatizing event that you had. So you're letting that event kind of dictate the rest of your life. And now it's panic mode. Yes. And you can't let, and for that reason alone, you have to get out there. If you put your actual face out there, which I think is smart, put your actual, not trauma. You don't want to make somebody feel like, okay, I can't date this guy because I'm going to have to take on all of their emotional

burdens. But be honest about your lack of experience. I often hear from gay men who are like, I'm really inexperienced and I'm afraid none of these guys are going to want to date me because I'm so inexperienced. There are other inexperienced gay guys out there who may have taken a hiatus from dating or may just not have ever jumped in just the way you never jumped in or you jumped out who are looking at your profile and going, well, he's an attractive guy. He's got great hair. Like, he wouldn't be interested in me because I'm so inexperienced. Lead with your inexperience. I'm nervous and I'm inexperienced. And, you know, I didn't, my 20s weren't like most gay men's 20s. And you think that's going to turn some gay men off. Okay, it might. Good. You don't want to be

with those gay guys. That's going to attract other gay men off okay it might good you don't want to be with those gay guys that's going to attract other gay guys you have to filter those gay guys because you don't want to wind up with somebody who's hoping to take advantage of your inexperience right but there are gay guys out there who are similarly inexperienced exactly and you guys who will feel safe opening up to you about that because you opened up to them first right because it all kind of boils down to intimacy factor in general if i if i've never dated or had a relationship another question is do i just start having the sex part i can't imagine like dating someone for the first time and having this sex thing in the back of my head so if i should just like go out and just get it done and then look for

dating from there. There's always when you talk about millions and millions of people, there's going to be hundreds of thousands of exceptions. Most gay men I know who are in relationships had a one night stand or hook up and then they just clicked and wanted to hook up with that person again. And then a relationship grew. But there are certainly gay men out there who are like, I want to date. I'm a demisexual. There's a term for everything these days. I want to get to know somebody first and then maybe move on to sex. And then you might make an emotional investment in somebody and the sex doesn't work and you have

to end it and like move on to the next emotional investment and then see if the sex works. But it's worth it. I think it's worth it for you to be honest. Listen, you don't want to traumatize yourself again, right? I think it's worth it for you to be honest. Listen, you don't want to traumatize yourself again, right? I think it's worth it for you to be honest on your pages. Get on all those pages and say, I'm looking to make a connection with somebody. I'm not looking to go, in this case, it would be not fuck first, Dan, I would say. You know, I'm looking to make a connection with someone. I'm looking to take it slow. I understand that that's not why everybody's here, but that's what I'm looking for. And I would respect that in return. Or, you know, somebody to be in the same position as I am. Because like Dan said, you're going to find like-minded people that also have little experience with sex or don't have much recent experience with sex. And take it slow so that you can have a nice experience for your first time re-entering the scene and entering someone or getting entered. I don't know what your bag is. You probably don't even know if you're a top or a bottom. That's it's been so long, but whatever it is, that's regardless of that. You just respect yourself and taking the

time and being honest and upfront with everyone so that there is no demand or expectation from them and that they know where you're coming from and that you've laid it all out there. And then something will naturally develop with one of these people. You will be attracted to one of these people and they will eventually, one of these people will be attracted to you. You know, it's not going to happen like lightning maybe right out of the gate, but it's going to happen. And you owe it to yourself to put yourself back out there because you don't want to let this experience that you had so many years ago define you. Right. Yeah, that's true.

And Stephen, are you in any kind of therapy right now? Not at the moment, but I was. And that's something that I should get into again. I had it's called EMDR, which is for anyone who has trauma in their past or PTSD, it was extremely beneficial. So that is something I should obviously do again. You say you live with your godmother? Yes, I've had to downsize my life a little bit. That's fine. Is your godmother supportive? Are you able to be out? Oh, yeah, very much so. She would be thrilled. Same with my real mother. And everyone in my life would be thrilled. Same with my real mother. And everyone in my life

would be absolutely thrilled to see me not alone. Well, I'm glad you have that kind of support. I think that's really important. What you need to disinhibit about is you think no one would want to date me for this reason, my experience. I haven't been in a relationship before. There are people out there who will want to date you for exactly that reason or who won't care, who want to date you for other reasons. And those won't seem relevant to stop disqualifying yourself, which is what you're doing right now. No one will want to date me.

I'm not gonna put myself out there. I'm so inexperienced. You're disqualifying yourself. Don't put yourself out there. Be really honest. And people will come along who are interested in you. And sometimes, you know, paradoxically for exactly the reason you thought no one who are interested in you. And sometimes, you know, paradoxically,

for exactly the reason you thought no one would want to date you. Someone else who's equally inexperienced is going to be, okay, we share this and I don't have to be stressed out about it. I don't have to worry about when I'm going to tell him I have no experience because he just told me he has none

and we can just be really honest with each other about that and then move on to see if we're compatible in all the other ways that matter. Right. Well, Stephen, let us know how it goes it goes yeah let's keep in touch with us okay steven and let us know like when you start getting out there and you know i will for sure yeah get those legs up i'll let you know when uh more than just life is fucking me okay great i love it thanks steven thank. Thank you, Stephen. Bye-bye. Okay. Bye. Well, now we know that Stephen's a bottom.

I think I'm a bottom. Which is a fine thing to be. Okay. So what do we have on deck, Catherine? All right. So our next email comes from B. B is a 28-year-old female and her boyfriend is a 29-year-old male. She says, Dear Chelsea, I've been dating my boyfriend for about five months now and he really is the best guy I've ever been with in regards to the way he treats me and the things we both enjoy doing together. The problem is that my ex-boyfriend from a few years ago gave me genital herpes

without my informed consent, which really made me depressed for years. My current boyfriend isn't educated enough on it and is freaked out by it. We've only had penetrative sex less than a handful of times, and each time has been pretty awkward because he can't stay hard or finish because he's in his head. He always makes sure I finish, but I miss the connection that's formed

when you have sex with someone you love, and it just makes me feel like shit even though he says he loves me. How do I bring this up to him without it sounding like I'm coercing him into having sex with me? B. How long did she say they were together? Five months. Five months and they've only had sex a handful of times?

Mm-hmm. Well, okay, first of all, one in three people have herpes. It's very, very common. And you can only spread herpes when you have an outbreak, which you'll know that you have, you know, and they're sure there are times where people don't know they're having an outbreak. But as a woman, it's pretty obvious when you're having an outbreak. And just like a man, their penis, it shows up on their penis. There's like a bump and a redness. So I've dated a guy who's had herpes. And as long as you're forthcoming about it,

if the person can't get past it, then like, I don't know what to tell you. Like they have to get past it. I got past it. It was not an issue for me. I was like, thanks for telling me, you know, I get it. And that's all you can do is give him your honesty. So I don't know what to say to that. I mean, I don't know how you can coerce him into staying hard or feeling more attracted if he's paranoid about catching herpes other than giving him the education and looking it up for him and reading to him exactly when the times are that he can catch that from you. Because you can easily be in a relationship with somebody who has herpes and not catch it from them. You can be in a relationship with somebody who has herpes and not catch it from them. You can be in a relationship with someone who has herpes and not know it because most people

who have herpes aren't even aware that they have herpes. And unlike people who have herpes and don't know it, I would say to the caller, you can take steps to protect your partner. So you can take valacyclovir, which is an antiretroviral medication, which can make you less infectious and make outbreaks less common. Is that Valtrex? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. That's its full name. And so, you know, if I was talking to your boyfriend, what I would tell him was, okay, worst case scenario, you contract herpes. You're not going to die. Most people who have herpes have one outbreak and then never as severe an outbreak, sometimes never again another outbreak. And your odds of getting herpes, if you guys are so paranoid that you can't risk that, have the decency to break up

with this person rather than every time you have sex with this person, making them feel terrible, which is what he's doing to the caller. And caller, you have to ask yourself how long you're going to put up with that. Yeah. I mean, it's really not a big deal. It's not a big deal, in my opinion. I dated guys who were HIV positive back when contracting HIV meant you were going to die in 18 months or two years. And I didn't make them feel like they were nuclear waste or toxic. And I wouldn't have dated them and they wouldn't have put up with me as a boyfriend had I made them feel that way. I had to relax and accept the risk I was running being in that relationship. And that's what your boyfriend has to do.

Accept the risk and relax and be with you or fuck off. And there's no middle ground. I like that. Yeah, I agree. I agree. Or fuck off. Yeah, this woman's boyfriend makes me mad. And that this woman thinks that it's something that she needs to fix when he's the one with the problem, when he's the one who has some work to do here. Yeah. You know, women are always the ones who are like convinced they have to nurture and tinker. And if they just like say the right thing, do the right thing, they can fix the shitty guy. And he's kind of being a shitty guy

with his dick right now. And like, he needs to get past it. And maybe just sometimes you only learn about something like herpes after you date somebody with herpes and that's what gets you past it. And so just five months in that you might need to educate him, okay, we will allow for that. But if he can't be educated or refuses to be educated, can't calm down, can't relax, can't love you, show him the door.

Amen. Wow. Well, that was easy. Our last question comes from Brad. He says, Dear Chelsea, my name is Brad and I'm 35 years old, happily married to my husband of five years, together for 13 years. My sister lives in Texas with her three sons, along with the rest of my family. They're 11, 8, and 6. My husband and I try to get out and see them at least once a year or sometimes more.

On our most recent trip, we quickly realized they had developed a new habit of calling each other gay. We've never hid from them the fact that we're married, love each other, sleep in the same bed. However, we've never been a part of any serious conversation with them about what it means to be gay. So my first thought was, okay, shit, they heard someone say gay in a derogatory way and are now using it like we all did back in the 90s. I think I know how to go about that conversation. Then I realized that they were actually using the term, quote, correctly, meaning you are acting gay, which broke my heart. My husband and I were so shocked and had no idea what to say to them. My relationship with my sister is on the fragile side. We got into a major fight after I yelled at her kids. Point taken. It's not my place.

But now I find myself in this situation. Her boys did this on several occasions in front of her, my mom, and my dad. No one said anything. So I started saying, guys, please stop saying that. You know it upsets me, and I've told you this before. I thought maybe that would trigger a reaction from my sister or mom or dad for that matter, but still no one said anything. So, of course, the boys completely ignored me. My dad, their grandpa, is also gay. They have another gay uncle on their dad's side. So why has no one had this conversation with them?

How do I bring this up with my family in a non-confrontational way? I have no idea how to bring it up without making my sister mad. Sincerely, Brad and Alex. Fuck your sister. Dan, why don't you take this one? I already did. Fuck your sister. Make her mad. Have a confrontation. Scream and yell. Blow the fuck up. that you're prioritizing your sister's feelings. Correct your kids when they insult you in front of your sister. Defend yourself, defend your husband, defend your dad, and talk to them. And don't be inhibited by your sister's homophobic bullshit. And, you know, it takes a village to raise decent kids. And if a kid says something in your family,

says something homophobic in front of you, says something racist in front of you, says something misogynistic in front of you, speak the fuck up. Don't defer to the dumbest bigot in the room who in this instance happens to be your own sister. Yeah, she probably thinks their behavior is innocuous, but like where has she been for the last five years? Like that behavior should be nipped in the bud the minute a child is saying anything like that should be nipped in the bud, especially if you have family members that are gay. Like, it's so disrespectful to have to be there and and hear that. But I would lay it out. You know, I wouldn't. I mean, I don't think there's a lot of results that come from a major blowout all the time. So I would lay it out in an email and just say, just so you know, like this has been my life experience and how deeply offensive it is to not only hear your children talk like that when you have gay family members, but to also not say anything to them and leave me to correct them. What an onus that is. How can you do that? You yelled at me for trying to parent them once, yet you want to be absolved of any parenting. How do you think it makes me feel to come over and have little children

making fun of a lifestyle? Like, they're not going to grow up in this world and get away with that behavior. So there's a lot of points you can make in that email, but I think it should just come from a place of hurt and asking her, like, where's the line? When are you going to say something to them? It's been established that that's an inappropriate use of language, calling somebody gay or telling somebody that they're acting gay is not cool anymore. And your fear as the uncle, like worst case scenario, is that you won't get to see your nephews or your sister for a while

if you stand up for yourself. Is that the worst case scenario here? That you don't have to hang out with your homophobic sister and her right now homophobic children who will one day hopefully apologize to you? That is not a bad outcome if they can't treat you with kindness, decency, and respect, you and your husband. So stick up for yourself and don't be inhibited by the fear of the worst case scenario coming

to pass that you don't have to see these people for a while. Yeah. How would you have that conversation with the kids if he is going to broach the subject with his nephews? Easily. I mean, sitting down with them and explaining, hey, I'm a gay man. Your grandfather's a gay man.

It's very disrespectful to hear you talking about that in terms that, A, you don't even really understand yet. These are little children. So the conversation with the child would be easier than with the adult because she's going to be defensive about her parenting. And she might think that you can't tell kids they shouldn't use gay in that way because then you're going to have to have a conversation about gay sex. And if a kid is using gay in that way, well, then you might have to have a conversation about that acknowledges the existence of gay sex, just as you probably had a conversation with those same kids acknowledging the existence of straight sex.

Because the kids of that age have already asked their parents where babies come from. And if they're old enough to be told that, they're old enough to know that gay people have sex for all the same reasons straight people do, except once or twice when straight people try to get pregnant. You know, sex is mostly for pleasure. And some people are sexually attracted to members of their same sex

for the same reasons some people are attracted to members of the opposite sex. And you can definitely have that conversation with a child who's using gay as an insult. I found my nieces and nephews at that age, they're such parrots and they're just parroting the behavior that they see. When my nieces or nephews have said something that to me is troubling, that feels borderline. And I have expressed to them like, you know what, it's actually better to do things this way. It's actually better to be more accepting. It's cooler to be this way. They flip flop real fast. And just because they're hearing a different perspective and suddenly they're like, oh, wait, it's cool to be friends with that person. Oh, wait, it's better to not use that type of

language. Oh, I would never do that. They flip-flop real, real fast. So, well, Brad and Alex, best of luck, and let us know how that conversation goes. Yeah, good luck with that. Yeah. We'll take a quick break and be right back. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really Know Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor.

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to give you the context you need to make sense of it all. Every day in just 15 minutes, we dive into one global business story that matters. You'll hear from Bloomberg journalists like Matt Levine. A lot of this meme stock stuff is, I think, embarrassing to the SEC. Amanda Mull, who writes our Business Week Buying Power column. Very few companies who go viral are, like, totally prepared for what that means.

And Zoe Tillman, senior legal reporter. Courts are not supposed to decide elections. Courts are not really supposed to play a big role in choosing our elected leaders. It's for the voters to decide. Follow the Big Take podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. Okay, Dan and I just are taking a quick bottom break and top break, and I'm the bottom and he's the top, and we're back and now we're a sandwich excellent well Dan I hear you have some advice you'd like to get from Chelsea

oh I thought you're gonna say advice you'd like to give to Chelsea yeah and usually people will come on and ask for advice for themselves from Chelsea but your producer let me know that there are a few questions sometimes that have you stumped and you wanted to bring one of your stumpers on to ask Chelsea about that question. The question today comes from Experienced. She says, Hi, Dan. I'm a 41-year-old bisexual female living in the rural Pacific Northwest.

I'm somewhat recently divorced and getting back into the dating scene. I keep running into this problem over and over where I match with someone, things are going fantastic, conversations flowing, and inevitably the talk turns to sexual compatibility. I'm an experienced woman and I'm proud of all the fun I've had in my life. I've played safe and feel very fulfilled. If someone asked me what's my number and I had to slap a number on it, I'd say 80s or 90s, maybe more. And every time I'm talking or texting or on a date with someone, one of three things happens. Either they drop off the face of the planet, and that's fine. I'm not everybody's cup of tea.

Two, I'm no longer seen as someone who's dateable, just fuckable. Talk of any dating or romance just completely drops off. But more often than not, this usually leads to conversations with gentlemen of their own fantasies, their own desires. But every time, they just drop off the face of the planet. They're no longer interested in dating me. They ghost me. It's just done and gone. Anyway, help me, Dan. I'm trying to figure out how I can be seen as someone who's both dateable, worthy of love and romance, but also someone who is really great in bed with gobs of experience that I have to bring to the table. Help. How can she be seen as worthy of love and romance as well as scorching hot sex while still being honest?

So, thought this would be a fun one to share with Chelsea because I think Chelsea's had sex with more than one person. Thank you for putting it that way, putting it so mildly. First of all, you don't need to front load all of that information into meeting somebody on the first date. Like that's not necessary for them to know, just like it's not necessary for you to divulge your entire childhood to somebody that you meet for the first time. And it's not lying. It's first of all, developing a connection with somebody and developing a trust. So if you want to date somebody, you have to get to know that person and they have to get to know you. And getting to know somebody means not front-loading every single thing that's ever happened to you on the first date. It's just unnecessary. You know, there's no intrigue there. There's no getting to know somebody. So you don't have to come out with all of that. You just have to go on a date like you're not auditioning for a job and putting out this kind of resume. Like that's not an obligation. You're not lying. You're getting to know someone. And in time, when you feel trusting and trusted, you can reveal more about

your personal history and your sexual history and when the time is appropriate. But that time is definitely not in the first few dates with somebody. You're dealing with men who are fragile, and that is a generalization, but it's applicable to a lot of men. Men are very fragile. And while the right person will be okay with that information, there's no reason to give that information away on the first date. Let somebody grow to understand you and respect you and have feelings for you. And then you can give out that information if it's completely necessary for you to do that. If you feel like you have to give out that information, great. But there's no rule saying that you have to tell everybody everything about your past. Even somebody you're dating,

you don't necessarily have to tell that person everything. No, you want to be respectful and you want to be honest. Like if you have herpes, you want to tell that person, yeah, I have herpes. But saying you've had sex with 90 people just seems extraneous. And group sex and kinky sex all on the first date. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

All of it is just better left for the person that is going to be able to digest that. My advice to her was to slow her roll, and that's your advice, too. Yeah, slow your roll is great. Just leave it at that. Slow your roll. Yep. And the thing about having a lot of sexual experience as a woman and a man having a problem with that, the caller is disclosing all of that right away, and then men are ghosting her. And if she let a guy get to know her and then this came up and then they like had that conversation where they talk about you know their experiences he may if he's the type of guy who would ghost on the first date knowing all of that

he may have to reassess his feelings and assumptions and prejudices about more sexually experienced women if he knows you better if he knows you well enough to like say to then question himself about the assumptions he might have made about a sexually experienced woman, having gotten to know you. And that's often what really helps people get past their prejudices when it comes to dating and sex, is getting to know somebody and then finding out more about them and then thinking, okay, well, my, you know, what I thought about, you know, people who are HIV positive, what I thought about people who did or used to do or are doing sex work, what I thought about, you know, people who are HIV positive, what I thought about people who did or used to do or are doing sex work, what I thought about whatever, what I thought about dating someone with herpes. I'm going to have to rethink that because I have gotten to know

this person. And of course, you should disclose everything. Somebody has a right to know, so they can, you know, make informed consent before being sexually active with you, but they don't have to know everything right away. Yeah. There's no investment on the first date. It's easy to reject someone if you don't like their lifestyle or their previous history. And like Chelsea, if you were on a first date with a guy and he suddenly told you the exact number of people he's had sex with, all the different kinds of sex he's had with these people, even if you were like into that and your number was as high or higher, wouldn't you be like, that's kind of bad judgment?

Like you obviously have no filter. And what you want on a first date is like a good time. And to see somebody has like a filter. Yeah, absolutely. A filter, filter, slow your roll and get a filter. Yes, absolutely. Okay. Well, there was a lot of sex talk today, Dan.

I attribute that to your presence. Well, I really enjoyed it. I always love sex talk. Yeah, I do. I love your advice too. It's nice and straight. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to spend time with you again.

I really appreciate you coming on the podcast. My pleasure. Thank you for inviting me. I really enjoyed it. And you give great advice too. Oh, thanks, Dan. I'll see you soon, hopefully. Okay. Thanks, Dan.

Bye. Bye. Bye. And if you'd like to get advice from Chelsea and one of her guests, please write in to dearchelseaproject at gmail.com. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling

questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Decisions Decisions, the podcast where boundaries are pushed and conversations get candid. Join your favorite hosts, me, Weezy WTF, and me, Mandy B, as we dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. Every Monday and Wednesday, we both invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms.

Tune in and join in the conversation. Listen to Decisions Decisions on the Black Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The forces shaping markets and the economy are often hiding behind a blur of numbers. So that's why we created The Big Take from Bloomberg Podcasts,

to give you the context you need to make sense of it all. Every day in just 15 minutes, we dive into one global business story that matters. You'll hear from Bloomberg journalists like Matt Levine. A lot of this meme stock stuff is, I think, embarrassing to the SEC. Follow The Big Take podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen.