Dear Chelsea - Psychedelics and Drug Use with Ethan Nadelmann

Episode Date: September 8, 2022

Drug policy pioneer and host of the PSYCHOACTIVE podcast Ethan Nadelmann joins Chelsea this week to discuss how MDMA helped him through a divorce, why drugs are wasted on the young, and how to have a good relationship with drug use.  Then: An agoraphobic Californian explores the possibilities of using ketamine or psilocybin to heal her trauma response.  A New Englander trades Xanax for weed.  And is a girlfriend’s concern about her pot-smoking boyfriend warranted, or are her concerns out-dated? * Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at [e-mail] * Executive Producer Nick Stumpf Produced by Catherine Law Edited & Engineered by Brandon Dickert * * * * * The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.  This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all.  Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really Know Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com

and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everybody. While I'm taking the month of September off of doing stand-up, I return on October 1st to complete my Vaccinated and Horny Tour. October, November, and December, I have new dates up. I kick it off in Saratoga, California,

and I'm coming to all parts of California, Long Beach, Bakersfield. I'm coming to Niagara Falls, Tucson, Arizona, Colorado, Minneapolis, San Diego, Reading, Pennsylvania, and Baltimore, Maryland, just to name a few. There's also some Floridian dates in there since this will be my last year

that I'm able to go inside the state of Florida. So check out chelseahandler.com for more-up dates for my Vaccinated and Horny tour. These are my last dates. Hi, Katherine. How are you? I'm so good. I'm here in LA and it's going to be 104 this weekend. I left LA because I don't like that kind of temperature. But I'm going to see you in Mallorca soon. Katherine and I are going on vacation together with Brad. We're going to become a throuple. I'm so thrilled. We're going to open up their relationship.

That wouldn't be weird. You're welcome in. We're really good at snuggling and aftercare. I was just at a lunch. I'm in New York City this week because I'm here to watch the U.S. Open because I wanted to watch Serena play for the last time. So I went to the first night where she fucking won. and it was so special. I just love that energy. I love watching people win. Yes. She came out in like a glittery robe, like cape, like a queen. Yeah. She had six layers to signify all of the, I guess, six U.S. Opens she had won. And she played this girl whose name,

oh God, that's terrible terrible I can't remember but the girl was so good it's so funny to watch Serena play because like her opponents are always just running back and forth with such athleticism and Serena just stands there she's just like here I'll return the ball from over here like I'm not running anywhere it's pretty amazing to watch her play she's such a she's a beast it's always amazing to see somebody who's just at the top of their game, whether it's sports, whether it's comedy, whether it's whatever it is. It's so fascinating to watch somebody who's at the top of their game. Yeah, I love it.

I love the whole vibe of like tennis grand slams. Like I've been to Wimbledon. I think I've been, I think that's probably it. Wimbledon and the US Open I've been to, but it's just such a vibe, you know, like you can drink, you watch sports, like it's up close. You can see everything. And no matter where you're sitting in the stadium, you're just watching the court. You know, it's not like a concert where you have to watch on one of these big screens. And the U.S. Open is the biggest one out of the Grand Slams. It holds the most seats. And so it's massive. And it's just's, yeah, my best friend, Bitchy. She's my sports friend. She's always got inroads to any sporting event. So we always get hooked up. So yeah, I'm having a great time. And I'm, yeah. And then I'm going to see you in Mallorca.

Yeah. And you've been seeing all kinds of friends this week, I know, because you were making plans last week. Oh my God, I know. I'm looking at my calendar. I'm like, fuck, what the fuck is this? We have a podcast recording at 2? This interrupts my lunch and mushroom day. I know. I'm so sorry to interrupt. Last night, though, I had the most romantic night by myself. I went to—first, I got up, and I worked out for two hours because I shot this campaign, and I had to really get it together for, well, one week. That's how I get it together. And then I just went off since then. I've gained six pounds and I am just cruising through Manhattan and I'm walking everywhere. Yesterday I met my sister. I walked 45 minutes. I met her for lunch. Then my friend Pitchy came. Then I walked all the way back and then I walked back downtown. I got in 27,000 steps yesterday. And my goal is just to, I love New York City for that reason. There's

nowhere, I mean, I just wish I lived in a city that was walkable, not a Los Angeles. Los Angeles definitely is not. It's barely drivable. Yeah. But where else have you been? You've been all over the place. Oh my gosh. I just got back from Greece and Vancouver Island. I went from Greece to Vancouver Island. Warm to very cold, it sounds like. Yeah. Well, it wasn't very cold on Vancouver Island. Greece was beautiful. I went to an island called Lafcada, which I've never been to with a bunch of friends. We just got on a boat

every day and went to a different beautiful restaurant and drank white wine and ate Greek salads and fish. And I could not have been happier. I actually was able to protect my face from the sun with this new hat I got. So I look like a dick, but at least my skin is not burned. And yeah, I was on vacation with lots of different new people and some children.

So you know how that goes. Yes, I saw your Insta stories with one in particular who I think was your favorite. Oh yeah, she's my favorite. The ones who can't really form sentences are my favorites. You know, like, I like when they're beginning to talk, but they haven't really gotten the handle of it. Bastard it. Yeah. That's when they get a full personality is when I start to lose interest. Yeah, the like jibber jabber stage where they'll just like tell you all about their day in total like jabbery English is my favorite. It's adorable.

Yeah, I had this four-year-old girl, Mia, who was just, she was so, she was like a seven-year-old. So it was so funny. I'd be like, okay, let's play a game where we count all the boats that are moving in the ocean. She's like, that sounds silly. I've got another game. I'm like, oh my God. She's like, I don't think so. She was just so funny. Just like, and this old British, like she sounded like an old British man. She sounded

like Mrs. Doubtfire. I love that. Traveling with children is another thing. You got to sort of have your own like timeline. There's naps involved sometimes. I just can't believe people do it. I just don't understand how people do it how they have so many children and then they have to pack up their car and they have to put in the baby bjorn and their cookies and their whatever bottle all of it and at every airport all you ever see is parents taking their sippy cups and downing the liquid in the sippy cups because the kids haven't finished it and like i was at heathrow on a layover oh Oh, I was in London too. I was at Heathrow and Heathrow is like the strictest airport in terms of liquids and fluids. So basically everyone who came through

just had to sit there in front of the TSA agent drinking their thermos because no one had emptied out their thermos. And I'm like, how do people not fucking know about emptying out their thermos at this point? How do they not know? We've been doing this for a minute now. It's been since 9-11. Yes. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, I just don't think I could have a kid and be the sort of mom who, like, licks their kid's pacifier to clean it before giving it to them. Or, like, parents, man, I have a lot of respect, but I can't do all that gross stuff.

No, no. It's all, yeah, it's too much. It's just, but I can't do all that gross stuff. No, no. I just can't do it. Yeah, it's too much. It's just never ending. And some people make it look easy, and I respect that because it's not easy. Some people with many nannies. We have a very special guest today. His name is Ethan Nadelman, and he is the former Princeton professor who built a political

movement to legalize marijuana, roll back the drug war, and treat drugs as a health issue, not a criminal one. He is now the host of the podcast Psychoactive about all things drugs, now in its second season. And obviously, I would like to announce to all my customers this disclaimer that I am not a doctor. I play one on a podcast that I would never, ever encourage anybody to do drugs. This isn't medical advice. This is my own personal therapy. Ethan, hi. It's so nice to have you. Well, it's a pleasure to be on your show, Chelsea. I really appreciate it. Oh, well, thank you. Thanks for being here. And you know, you've spoken to Catherine before. Yeah. Hi. Okay. So I know you are a huge proponent of the legalization of marijuana and basically, I mean, all drug use, right? Or do you want to get

specific about what drugs you are for and what drugs you're against? Well, I mean, let me be very specific. I mean, most of my life was about working to legalize marijuana and to end the war on drugs. So that's where, and I was never calling myself pro-marijuana, although in my personal life, I'd say marijuana and I have had a great relationship for a very long time. Amen to that. But when it comes to the other drugs, you know, I'm sort of a marijuana and psychedelic exceptionalist and that those are the drugs that have been good in my life and the other ones I'm not so crazy about. But the principle that nobody should be punished for whatever drug they put in their body, if they don't hurt anybody else, I think that's the core principle we have to remember. So that even if you love weed, you love psychedelics, you don't like all the other sorts of things, it doesn't mean

that other people should get punished simply for using those things. Right. Absolutely. And so what are your feeling about other sort of narcotics? I mean, you're into psychedelics. And so I assume that encompasses all psychedelics, psilocybin. Well, you know, I haven't tried all of them yet, right? I mean, you know, mushrooms have been my kind of go-to one for a very long time. Ayahuasca has been good. I've done mesclun once or twice. I've tried a few others. I did 2C-B. MDMA, not really a psychedelic, but that one was very nice in my life, although it doesn't really work for me anymore. But when it comes to the opioids, I mean, no, I just think they're useful for pain and that one needs to be very careful when you're using them. But I do know people who use,

you know, who use opioids and have led very successful lives even when using them regularly. So I'm just, it's always just very important that we not demonize other people, even for using drugs that are more dangerous. And even like cocaine, like I've never really liked cocaine that much. I mean, for me, like having cocaine is like drinking too much coffee and having post nasal drip. Right. So it's never been a thing for me. I have friends who love cocaine. I've had friends who got in trouble with cocaine. I've had friends who just play with it. So I'm not a big fan. I don't think it brings out the best in people. You know, I wouldn't want people I really care about getting into cocaine too much,

but it still means I don't like the law punishing anybody for using that stuff. So when you said you used MDMA, but it stopped working for you, what do you mean by that? Because I've heard that before from people. Well, I'll tell you. I mean, you know, Chelsea, when I first started using early 30s, it was in the context of my divorce, I think it helped us land up on a softer landing. And I've used it in romantic relationships since

in my 30s and 40s. And it was good with friends that I've been to raise. But around I'm now 65, around the time I hit my early 50s, I found that the upside started waning, and the downside started increasing. And I started having the feeling like my body was telling me, don't put this in you. And so I really missed it. I mean, it was, it served a valuable purpose for me in terms, especially in romantic relationships, in terms of being able to deal with issues and have communications otherwise difficult to do. Yeah, that's true. It is helpful in relationships. If you can have conversations, important conversations, right? I mean, have you used it in that way? No, I haven't. I've only

used it in, I mean, that's a good idea though. I've only used it to like have a good time, you know, MDMA that is, but no, I haven't. I'd recommend it. I mean, it's just because it gives people the ability both to listen more deeply than they normally were, it dissolves the defenses, and also to speak in a way that's more empathic in a way. And so I think, you know, when it was first kind of the, when its uses were first kind of rediscovered in the 70s, it was known as the couples therapy drug. And it was most famous for that type of use. And now when we see it emerging for use with respect to PTSD and things like that, it really has a very valuable role to play. So I'd strongly encourage you, so long as it works well for you.

I should also say that I think when it comes to stopping, I know a lot more guys who says it doesn't work for me anymore. Whereas women seem to get, this is no research on this, just impressionistic. Women seem to get more value of it for a longer time. Interesting. And tell me a little bit about mescaline. I've never had any experience with mescaline either. just impressionistic. Women seem to get more value of it for a longer time. Interesting. And what about, tell me a little bit about mescaline. I've never had any experience with mescaline either. I don't think so. Well, you know, you can get it in the refined version, which is the way I did it. The other two ways is it comes from the peyote cactus, which is the one that's used in indigenous ceremonies, Native American church. And now people are mostly, people are being discouraged from using peyote because there's a limited supply and you don't want to deprive Native American church members and indigenous

peoples of having access to it. But there's a plant called San Pedro, which is also a source of mescaline. So I would say I did it the one time I did it, I found it a lot like a mushroom experience. It can be maybe a little bit longer. It was before the invention of LSD in the 40s or just, you know, creation of LSD in the 40s. It was the most popular of the psychedelics. I just interviewed somebody on my podcast, Psychoactive. Mike Jay wrote a wonderful history of this whole thing. Michael Pollan, who's written that wonderful book, How to Change Your Mind, about psychedelics. He has a new book where he talks about his mescaline use. So I would say it's worth trying. Some people may prefer it to LSD or to mushrooms. I don't think it's radically

different though. Okay. So it's in that same family. And what about your experience? You said ayahuasca. Have you done that multiple times? You know, I did it for the first time about 20 years ago. I had a great experience, then I did it a few years later in the context of a religious ceremony, something the Brazilian church called Santo Daime, although I did it in a loft in New York, but in that modality. And then since that time, I haven't really done the full-blown ones. I've been at gatherings with a sort of guide where they have low-dose ayahuasca mixed in with other things. I've never gone down to South America to do it in the jungle. I saw you did that for the TV show you did on

Netflix. I know a lot of people have done it that way. So it's not been a drug I've gone back to many times, although I would definitely do it again. I would definitely do it again. You know, I'm one of the few people, like most people throw up when they do it, you know, and you're supposed to throw up because it helps to purge, but I didn't throw up. I didn't throw up either. Oh no, I did throw up. Sorry. I did. Yeah. I thought you were talking about the other outlet because they say you can sometimes, you know, go to the bathroom too. With respect to that second time I did it, nothing happened during the ceremony, but in the following days, that other outlet was quite active.

Oh, well, that's good to know. Thank you for filling me in. Yeah, sure. Do you find age at all to be a prohibitor in any of these drugs we're talking about? You know, I'll tell you, I think, I mean, first of all, as I say, as I've got an older MDMA, it's not really doing it for me. Marijuana continues to be my friend after all these years. I think if you don't have issues, like for example, I don't have any, you know, I'm very healthy for my age. So I don't worry about cardiovascular issues. If you feel vulnerable cardiovascularly, you have to be careful with taking a drug that could really, you know, get your heart going in a serious way. I've never been on antidepressants, but if you are,

you know, you can't be an antidepressants and be doing ayahuasca because that's got a toxic combination. Like one thing I've gotten into in recent years is doing LSD, not at the macro dose, the heroic dose, the big dose, and not so much at the micro dose, the five or 10 micrograms, but doing what I would call a mini dose of like 20 or 30 micrograms, which is enough to make you feel you're under the influence of something, but you're not really having any visions. You're not way out there. And I will say that the following day, I just feel exhausted. And I think that may be aging. But, you know, there are people who just keep doing it into their 80s and older.

I mean, my view on the psychedelics has always been they're kind of wasted on the young. And I tend to think about them. I once gave a speech and I said, you know, I think about doing psychedelics the way I think about Yom Kippur. You know, I'm Jewish, I grew up religious, I now am not that religious, but you know, once a year, Yom Kippur, fast, 25 hours, no food, no water, because I think it's a good thing for getting more in touch with that spiritual side. And I think the same thing with psychedelics, that a lot of times people in their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s say, oh, I did that when I was young. But my view is it's a good thing to keep coming back to at least once a year. It's good for stirring up the emotional sediment, the psychological sediment scared of it when they get older is because it does mean stirring up that emotional sediment. It does mean coming to grips with things, compromises you've made in life, things you've had to settle for. But I actually think it's a healthy thing spiritually, emotionally, and probably even physically to keep doing it as long as one feels physically able.

Wow. Well, that's great. I love to hear that because I always feel like at a certain point you have to stop the drugs. And I think what you're saying is quite the opposite. As long as you're continually evolving and exploring, there's no reason to stop unless you have some health limitations. Exactly. Exactly. And I think to try to overcome those fears that happen as we get older. So many of my friends who used to deal with me back in the day, now they're worried about it. They're scared about it. Although the truth being that with all the behavioral media about psychedelics now with Michael Pollan's book and all the other sorts of things, more and more people are expressing interest in doing it who either haven't done it

in many decades or never did it. And I think that's an encouraging sign. I mean, even with marijuana, if you think about it, I remember when we started legalizing marijuana first for medical and then more broadly in the various states with all the ballot initiatives. And people would say, well, you just you watch adolescent use is going to skyrocket. And my response to them would be, I don't think so, because teenagers already have easy availability to marijuana and we're not legalizing it for them. So why is it going to go up so much? And I said, the real increase in use is going to be among people in their 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s. And I'll tell you, you know, five, 10 years since we started legalizing marijuana in states around the country, there's been virtually no jump in adolescent marijuana use, which would be something

you'd worry about. But meanwhile, among people like, you know, people in their 60s, 70s, there's like a quadrupling of youth, because people are finding it valuable. They're finding it, you know, they find they prefer it to alcohol, they find it helps with sleep or aches and pains, or maybe it helps to spice up a sexual relationship with a person you've been married to for decades, right? I mean, it's got all these sorts of benefits. And so I think the benefits of psychoactive drugs, and especially ones like cannabis and psychedelics, I think they're underestimated in terms of being positively connected with healthy aging. Do you think that the dosage is important as you age? I mean, because the microdosing is really what everybody's on about now and guided journeys with whatever drug of choice, whether it's a microdose of LSD or psilocybin or ketamine.

Do you think that that has an impact? Well, it's so hard to know. I mean, with microdosing, some people have claimed it's little more than a placebo and other people have claimed really significant benefit from microdosing. And microdosing usually means taking between a 10th to a 20th of the dose that would normally result in a psychedelic trip. And so I would say the microdosing thing is worth trying. It does not appear to be much risk associated with it, although there's not long-term studies on it. And that can involve doing it with LSD, with mushrooms. It can even be done with ayahuasca. I've even heard about microdosing ibogaine, which is a very powerful psychedelic out of West Africa from the iboga plant that people have found great results in curing addiction, but I'm a little scared to try.

With marijuana, some people find that as they get older, that the brain changes in a way, and so that you need less to get high. So I think it's a matter of just being attentive to what works. And look, also, people use it differently. I know people, I know people, billionaires, enormously successful people. Every night, you know, they'll take a couple of puffs off a joint, watch late night TV and go to sleep. And they've been doing that for decades. I know brilliant academics and intellectuals who've been using marijuana, including for creative purposes. In my case, I don't do marijuana daily. I smoke it periodically with friends or my partner or something like that. And then edible. I'm getting into edibles more frequently. In fact, for me, part of my healthy aging process is once a week when I'm

in New York, I take 10 milligrams of edible THC, usually in a nice chocolate bar, grab my headphones, and I go down and get a multi-hour massage. And I'm just floating and marijuana helps me get into my body. Any psychoactive drug, the key thing is to be using it consciously, not to be using it unconsciously and not to just be using it habitually and not to be using it just in an escapist way. It's to use it consciously to say, this is a moment or a thing I'm doing where I think actually using this substance will enhance what I'm intending to do or wanting to do. Right. Now, circling back real quick to your MDMA experience with your ex-wife,

you said that that helps with issues in your marriage to have conversations while taking that. I have heard that before, but not really the way that you said it because the dosage would have an impact on your being able to actually have a conversation like that in a serious nature, right? Rather than just... Not really, Chelsea, because with MDMA, it's pretty standard that people will do between 100 and 150 milligrams. And so when you're doing MDMA, nobody's hallucinating. It's not a psychedelic experience. So the drug used to be called an empathogen because it helps to open up your heart. In fact, at some point, the nickname was originally going to be something like empathy, but people realize, you know, who wants to market a drug called empathy? There's not a

big market for empathy, right? Let's call it ecstasy. And so ecstasy became the nickname for MDMA. But I think the key thing is that when the drug comes on and it's two people and you're in a relationship, the ability to process stuff, to process things that have been bugging one or the other, to talk about them in a respectful way, an empathic way. It basically causes defenses to melt in a way. And I think that's, it's great value with, with, with my ex-wife, you know, we were in a very difficult spot, but we did it together and we were able to talk and we actually thought for a while, as did our marriage counselor that, oh my God, our marriage is going to be saved here. And in the end, you know, it wasn't enough, but I do think we landed up with a safer landing and became wonderful co-parents and friends thereafter. And in subsequent

relationships, you know, it was, it's always been valuable in terms of dealing with the stuff that builds, begins to build up in a relationship that, that needs to get processed, that needs to get talked about. So I think just being there, quiet place, have that conversation. And while you're in the conversation, remembering that it's not the kind of drug you can keep using over and over and over and over again. That the idea is to, as you're doing it, and as you're having this heartfelt, honest, understanding, empathic conversation, to be thinking about ways in which you can get back to that spot the next day and the next week and the next month without having to use the drug repeatedly. Right. It's good to come back and use it occasionally. I'm talking about using it three, four or five times a year, not using it weekly, never mind daily or something like that. And it kind of depletes you, right? Of your serotonin, MDMA.

If you think about, you know, Prozac, they both act on the serotonin level that essentially Prozac is a mattress and MDMA is a trampoline. And so oftentimes the next day people can feel a bit depleted. Although I'll tell you the first time I did it, I felt great the next day. I always feel it the next day in my system in a good way, not a bad way. In a good way. Yeah. So that's great. That's great. I think I have found, this is just once again, anecdotal. When I would do with friends and the next day we'd all jump on a plane to go back home, I noticed that a surprising number of us would get a cold or get sick in the following days. So I think it's good to understand that your system may be somewhat compromised the following day.

Definitely. Take it easy. And like oftentimes people don't do it on a Sunday, do it on a Saturday. Make sure you have a day to take off between the day you take it and the day you're back at work. Because what I find is that it melts your defenses and the defenses don't just jump right back up to sort of throw yourself right back into work the next day when your defenses are still kind of down, you know, and shit's flying at you in the work environment. You're not quite ready to deal with it. You need that recovery time that at least a day of recovery

time after you do it. Yeah. And also it's good to take B12 before doing it and after doing it to help with that kind of, they call it like suicide Tuesday. It's not, or suicide, right. Suicide. I don't know.

It's usually two days after you take it that some people can have like a depressive episode, right? This doesn't happen to everybody, but people can, it can happen. So it's always good to take B12. Okay.

Well, Ethan, we're excited you're here today. We have a show where we have people call in for advice. So you're going to be our guest and Catherine's going to give us the lowdown. But first we're going to take a break, right, Catherine? Yep. We're going to take a quick break for an ad and we'll be right back with some callers. Okay. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really Know Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer.

And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman.

And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, no really. Yeah, really. No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason

Bobblehead. It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Fantastic. Well, we have really just all drug questions today. Oh, what a nice episode this is going to be. It feels so warm and fuzzy.

Yes. I mean, I do have to preface this with I am a baby drug user. I have not really tried a whole lot of things. Haven't tried mushrooms, that sort of thing. Have minimally tried marijuana. Just wait till you come to Mallorca, Catherine. Don't worry. Just wait. And you have so much to look forward to, Catherine. And with MDMA, I'm oftentimes most envious. I call them the MDMA virgins because if you've never done it before, the first time is oftentimes the best ever. I'm kind of excited. I do have to say I won the second place prize in the DARE essay writing competition in fifth grade. But second place was better than first place because she got like a tour of the police department and I got a

pizza party. So yeah, seriously. Hello. Prizes are in the wrong order for that contest. Exactly. Exactly. So our first question comes from Jamie. She says, Chelsea, you were talking about CBD today when I was listening to Glennon's episode. I've tried many CBD products and I don't ever feel any effect. Can you recommend a specific amount or brand so I can feel the effects? I tried a pop brownie once and it threw me into a terrible panic attack. I don't want to feel bad again.

I just want to feel calm and sleep. Thanks, Jamie. Well, the CBD, if you're not feeling anything, I would say not to be opposed to adding a little THC ratio to it. I mean, if you're taking, I don't really feel CBD when I take that by itself either. I usually take that for when I'm skiing for pain management for my knee,

but I would say to throw in a little THC, like, you know, it could be like 2.5 milligrams of THC against a higher percentage or a higher ratio of CBD for a little bit more of a buzz to help you so you can actually feel it without overdoing it. Ethan, what are your thoughts on this matter? Yeah, I really don't know. I mean, I do do CBD, all the stuff about the rub-ons and this and that and the drops. There's not a lot of evidence out there about how using it in that form is actually helpful. And it's usually not psychoactive. There are studies that show that CBD has been helpful in some very serious medical conditions. But a lot of it's been hype.

It's hard to say. Now, there is a website out there called Project CBD, a guy named Martin Lee, who I think is one of the most honorable. I don't think he's taken money from any one company to promote one or the other. So keep your eye on that Project CBD website. And they may provide some guidance about what are the more reliable or less reliable, both brands and ways of taking it or not taking it. The idea that Chelsea said about combining it with THC in small amounts, I mean, you

know, the plant produces, the marijuana plant produces both THC and CBD. And so that's why you see a lot of the edibles. Sometimes we'll have a THC CBD combination. I think it's generally a good idea to use THC with some CBD. Sometimes people have issues with marijuana and anxiety may find that if you're using THC with no CBD in it, it may exacerbate the anxiety because CBD is supposed to be an anti-anxiety drug. So I'd say no fantastic information out there, but you can dig around and try to use the drugs in combination.

And what's the name of that website again? I think it's called Project CBD or just Google Martin Lee CBD, which is what I just did. Yeah. You know, I like the idea of combining it. There was a time when I was using a lot of CBD. I also didn't really feel anything. But Brad, my husband and I went to the beach and I had been using like a CBD vape pretty heavily that day. And we decided like, okay, we're going to like take a couple hits of this very

strong joint that we got as a wedding favor at my brother Ethan's wedding. And we both took one hit and we're just, I mean, it was beyond. It was way too much. It was super, super strong. And usually when I have too much marijuana, I get very like unhappy, panicky. It activates all that stuff for me. But since I'd had so much CBD, I was very calm, even though I was like, I'm way more stoned than I want to be. But it really helped from that perspective of like, just gave me a chill time. That makes sense. You know, a lot of times, a lot of people have issues with anxiety and marijuana. I think a lot of them, I find that the first time they did marijuana, they did it in a social environment, oftentimes with people they were not necessarily that comfortable with. And so I think the best way to deal with that is when you're using marijuana,

either to overcome that fear of anxiety or using it for the first time, try to do in a place where you're either by yourself or with your lover or close friend where you're really comfortable, where there's nobody you have to be on with, nobody you have issues with. And if possible, do it not in like the same place, like the TV room or whatever,

but try to find a nice place outside, you know, whether it's the woods or a lake or someplace that's not your normal, you know, sitting environment, the woods or a lake or something. So not your normal sitting environment, just alter it a bit. Well, our next question comes from Michelle. Michelle says, Dear Chelsea, I'm going on a camping trip this month with my husband and two other couples. We all plan on doing mushrooms together. The other couples do this yearly and are inviting us for the first time. I don't have much experience with drugs. I smoked weed a bit in my early 20s, and I've done coke once. I'm a little nervous of the possibility of

a, quote, bad trip. I feel extremely safe with my friends, and I know they'll guide me through the experience. I'm mostly nervous about my husband. He's very experienced with drugs, although he has never done mushrooms, but my main worry is his reaction if I do have a bad trip. He would prefer me not to partake, and I'm scared that my fear of his reaction could make me have a negative experience. What's your advice to have an enjoyable experience for my first time? Michelle. Hi, Michelle. I think first off, you have to stop telling yourself you're not going to have a good experience because that's like a self-fulfilling prophecy. You have to go into drugs always like you're using the drug, the drug is not using you. That's how I feel about

anytime I take drugs. Anytime I'm not in control of the situation is when I'm not in control of the situation. So I would just say to do, you know, if you're worried about your experience, just do half of what everybody's doing and you're going to have a good time. Mushrooms make you laugh. They make you relax. You will be probably laughing the hardest you've ever laughed in your life. That's usually what happens to people the first time they do mushrooms. Ethan, what has been your experience with people who have bad trips on mushrooms? I mean, I think your advice to Michelle is right on. The other thing I would tend to say is that Michelle and her husband should have a conversation beforehand and maybe with their friends there just saying, listen, I want you to know, dear husband, that if I need some help

during this, I'm not expecting you to be there. Please don't worry about me. And have one of the friends saying, we're in charge here. Say to the husband, you can relax. If you're having your own good trip, bad trip, don't feel an obligation. You want to be together, be together, but don't get into a mode of needing this for one or the other. And we, the friends are here to help in that and thereby take the pressure. So if for example, it does, you're right. It's highly unlikely to go in the wrong direction, but if it does, that the husband's not going to feel guilty for not being present. It's having the friends there, the host there saying, we got this, you relax. When she's a little better, you guys can be together. Something

along those lines. Yeah. And just for the record, I know this is, I mean, I don't speak for the entire universe, even though I'd like to. I would like to say that I've never been around anybody who had a bad trip on mushrooms and I do them all the time. I've done them dozens of times. I did have two trips that I would regard as that which went into a very dark place where I just began to feel enormously depressed. And I used two different approaches to deal with it. The first time, and it felt a little bit like cheating, was that when it went into a very dark place, I had some MDMA around, you know, ecstasy. And I just took a little MDMA and that just lifted it up into a beautiful place again. It's one reason why sometimes people combine mushrooms and MDMA because it both

enhances the possibility of going to a beautiful spot and it minimizes the chance of going to a dark spot. Now, the other way to do it in the rare possibility that it goes into a dark place. And this I was remember I was doing it with my partner. We had a beach and it went into a very dark place. Everything felt black and dark and crumbly and dying and all this sort of stuff. And you can't the thing is you cannot run away from a bad trip. You can't run away from it. And so what I did was I almost envisioned that darkness of the bad trip as like a bad trip. You can't run away from it. And so what I did was I almost

envisioned that darkness of the bad trip as like a huge wave. And you know, when you're swimming in the ocean and you see also a big wave coming, you can't run from it because then you'll get, you know, crash on you, you'll tumbling, you might hurt yourself. The only choice when a big wave is coming is to dive into it, dive underneath it, dive through it. And so I practically like physically almost dived into the sand, but like, you through it. And so I practically like physically almost dived into the sand, but like, you know, I mean, you know, literally in a way or, you know, or metaphorically in a way was into the wave of the darkness. And I kind of came out of it, I came out of it, and all of a sudden things just lifted and it became this magnificent

trip for the rest of it. So I would say you're right to tell her, don't worry about the bad one. It's highly unlikely. You have friends around who can take care of you. Don't worry about your husband's reaction. If it does go in a dark place, there are ways to deal with it. And in whatever case, even if it is dark, you're going to get better in a few hours and you'll be fine the next day. And many times people say they find that even going into a dark place on mushrooms or ayahuasca, they may go through a terrifying place, especially with ayahuasca. And then the next day they said, my God, that was the most magnificent experience of my life because of how much I learned and how much I benefited. Yeah. So I would just say to lower

the dosage compared to what your friends are taking, you know, just for you in beginning, just take half so that you're not going to be, you know, out of control. And then if you like it, you can take more. Yes. Great. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden.

And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like... Why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk

gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Brian Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend.

Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really No Really. Yeah, Really No Really. Go to reallynoreally.com

and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really? No, Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, we have our first caller of the day today. This is Annie. Annie says, Dear Chelsea, I was diagnosed with complex PTSD about 15 years ago, but I've struggled with it for over 20 years. I've tried many different forms of therapies, medications, and THC, which have helped some, but never completely.

My symptoms have become much worse during the last few years with running from fires in California, COVID, and just the general shit show that is our world. I'm now struggling to leave the house, and I've been isolating myself to an extreme. I'm pretty sure I'm bordering on agoraphobia. Even my work Zooms have become a source of anxiety. I'm planning to email my doctor to talk to him about some beta blockers to help with the short-term issues. I heard you talk about this on your show the other day, and I have never tried them before. My question to you is, I'm considering some alternative treatments, including microdosing psilocybin, MDMA, or therapeutic ketamine. I've read that in some instances, they are curing PTSD with these treatments,

which I had been told would never be possible. I'd rather try psilocybin, but that seems less legal at the moment and harder to come by. I feel lost in trying to figure out who to talk to about this. My doctor is pretty judgmental and I would never bring this up to him. Do you have any advice on resources to learn more about these types of treatments? I've obviously googled it, but I'm not sure who to trust. I can't be the only one whose symptoms have become much worse during this COVID apocalypse time. Thank you both for doing what you do. Your show has been a great source of comfort and much needed laughter. Annie. Hi, Annie. Hi, Annie. Hi. Hey, Annie. That's Ethan.

He's our guest today. I'm so sorry that you're dealing with this, Annie. Oh, thank you. But just know that this is temporary. You're not going to feel like this forever and you're not alone. So many people feel like this after COVID and have anxiety and there are ways to fix it. But Ethan, do you want to start with some resources? Because you're probably the man for that. Let me suggest a few things. I mean, first of all, I think when it comes to microdosing with mushrooms or something like that, if you can get a hold of them, even just not even pure psilocybe mushrooms, there's relatively little risk with doing that at a very, very low level. I mean, maybe it helps, maybe not. There's not much evidence on it.

I think the place I'd start is with ketamine because ketamine is legal. And I think the first place I would go, probably the godfather of ketamine-assisted psychotherapy is a fellow named Phil Wilson up in Marin County in California. And he's got a whole bunch of websites. So just Google on Phil Wilson and ketamine. One of his top proteges is a doctor in the New York area, Geeta Vaid. I actually interviewed her on my podcast, Psychoactive, not long ago. And she speaks about the art of doing psychotherapy assisted by ketamine. And because that's legal, it's going to be easier to access. The challenge is to find the best therapist. And I think starting up with Phil

Wolfson is the way to go. Now, MDMA is probably going to get approved by the Food and Drug Administration, the FDA, sometime later this year or next year for treatment of PTSD. So there are already research programs that are admitting patients. So you just google PTSD MDMA psychedelic therapist something like that you'll probably see people popping up the organization MAPS which is the multidisciplinary associated psychedelic studies has been the one driving this process forward the FDA and they're training people all around the country to be therapists so that's probably the other place I would look. And once you start nosing around, then people will start to recommend to you therapists who are using MDMA-assisted psychotherapy, not fully legally yet, but where it's becoming more and more common.

Okay. Thank you. Have you heard of MAPS, Annie? I have heard of MAPS. I've done some reading about it. Yeah. It doesn't seem like it was widely available yet. Well, they basically have research programs now. So sometimes you can still get into one of those. But once you start calling around, people will let you know about psychotherapists who are providing this sort of help, either using psilocybin or MDMA. But starting off with ketamine simply because it's legal, just finding the right therapist, I think really is the way to go. Okay, perfect. Thank you. And what state are you in, Annie?

I'm in California. Oh, okay. Well, that's easy to find in California, guided ketamine trips. I have a few friends that are doing that. Oh, okay. I didn't know that that was really a thing here. I'd seen it like in Southern California, but I'm in Northern California. Phil Wilson is right up in Marin and he's the godfather of ketamine. So definitely check out his website and see what you can find out there. Okay, great. Thank you so much. Yeah. And you know, try in the meantime, beta blockers, if you get those prescription, that's a short term solution, but it also does kind of the neuropathways, it changes those. In my experience, I've taken beta blockers, if you get those prescription, that's a short-term solution, but it also does kind of the neuropathways, it changes those. In my experience, I've taken beta blockers and you

don't have to take them all the time. You take them and it kind of sets up a new pattern of thought so that you don't get that nervous energy. I do look at it as a short-term solution. I think that the ketamine and everything else is a deeper, more spiritual solution to, you know, the anxiety and the discomfort you're feeling. Yeah. There's also a brilliant doctor, writer, thinker named Julie Holland who talks a lot about this stuff. So just Google Julie Holland and I think you'll come across some interesting information as well. Thank you.

Okay, Annie, take care. Let us know how it goes. Yeah, let us know how it goes, okay? I will. Thank you so much. Sure. All right. Well, our next question comes from Katie. Katie asks, Dear Chelsea,

on the show, I heard you talking about microdosing chocolate mushrooms. I'm an elementary school special ed teacher and my weed and Xanax intake increased substantially over the pandemic. I talked to her a little bit about it and her Xanax increase was really linked to a really high stress job that she had. I'm looking to take a break from the weed, but I know I'll be very unpleasant. I'm curious about the chocolate fungi and where I can find them safely. Thanks, Katie. And she is actually here with us on the phone as well. Hi, Katie. Hi there. Yeah, I think mushrooms are a great pivot for you. Are mushrooms legal? What states legally sell mushrooms, Ethan? No, there's no place where it's legal. Although if you figure out a way to grow it, there's all these sort of guides to growing it at them anymore. More and more of them are selling chocolate mushrooms. I mean, I've now seen these menus, which used to

just be different types of marijuana, edible and smokable. And now they're including, you know, mushrooms in little powders and mushrooms and chocolate. So, you know, if you, if you know, where do you live? I live in New England and I use a delivery, one of those, you know, same type of things. So I'll have to check that out. I haven't even bothered to look at their edibles. Yeah. Just ask your delivery service if they happen to provide mushrooms and if they don't, if they know somebody who does, because I'm amazed at how much this has taken off in the marijuana delivery world if you're carrying these things as well. Yeah. That's been my biggest issue is being you know old enough to know that online

is not where it's at to be trusted necessarily and then not being young enough to really know anybody that's still growing or got stuff like that around and so i was kind of stuck and my doctor was more concerned with the xanax use leading to Alzheimer's more than anything else, which kind of scared me. And then that was kind of like, okay, I really like to back off of that and not need it so much. So if I had a different option other than the weed, that would be great. Because at this point, I just smoke all the time. What about with weed? I mean, because the Xanax is the one from a health perspective has a lot more risks and weed has relatively fewer risks. And it might be a matter of changing the way you're consuming weed or the, you know, maybe shifting to a drinkable

seltzer with low THC content in it. And those can be kind of nice. I don't know. You've already tried that. Yeah. My issue is that I, my consumption is just off the charts. And like I make my own tincture that's 120 milligrams per milliliter and make my own gummies and sometimes feel them. Chelsea talked about chocolate mushrooms as an alternative. And I was really curious about it. Yeah, I think what Ethan said is pretty accurate, though. Like anyone who's delivering weed is also delivering mushrooms because they're everywhere. Everywhere I go, somebody hands me mushrooms. I wish I could hand them to you right now. I was going to say, can I go where you go? I know. I want to go to there. But yeah, you should investigate.

And if it's not the weed delivery service that you're using, look for some other ones because I guarantee you'll find them there. You know, just don't overdo it. When you're trying mushrooms for the first time, again, make sure you're just doing like a half a dose to see how, what your reaction is. And then once you're comfortable with it, you know how to titrate or increase or whatever you're after, which is relief. Yeah. I was going to say, what is it? How would you describe that feeling? Well, I, with mushrooms, I find that I just have a lot of clarity and I feel up. If I take chocolate mushrooms, like with my girlfriends, I'll take more to laugh, you know, and just be silly. But mostly I take them, you know, I took one yesterday. My friend had some mushroom, morning mushrooms,

and it had like all these other ingredients in it that were just like wake up natural ingredients and herbs and stuff like that. So, and that stuff is just so minimal. You just feel a little bit more clarity and just a little sharper, you know, on it and upbeat and ready to go. Kind of like a cup of coffee without it. I was just going to say my TikTok algorithm locked on and sending me mud water. Is that something similar to what you're talking about? Yeah. The mud water is, I love it. I think it's very tasty, but it's a little bit more of like a coffee substitute rather than, yeah. It's like adaptogen mushrooms for health and that sort of

thing. But it's tasty. It tastes like chai tea, but not going to get you high. No. So here's one more question, too. Would you both suggest that she sort of taper down the marijuana use before trying the mushrooms or use them in conjunction with each other? Well, what's the negative effect of the marijuana use now for you? I mean, my bank account, but I have a home garden with a bunch of tomato plants and then one, one lovely little sativa. So I'm, you know, trying that way, but other than the fact that I'm spending a lot of money and don't really get high anymore, unless it's, you know, what people would consider way

overdoing it. I mean, like I went through like a half an ounce in the last week. Yeah. So your tolerance is pretty high. Yeah. I mean, because some people use marijuana as heavily as you do, it's because you're getting some medical benefit from it. I mean, it may be serving this anti-anxiety purpose. Oh, definitely is. Trying to pull back on the Xanax and maybe figuring out a more cost-effective way, the most cost-effective way to be consuming the marijuana. And I think if you're going to do the mushrooms, I don't know that you need to cut back on the marijuana. You know, it's, they're different substances. They operate differently on your brain. And if you're doing,

as Chelsea suggests, doing with a little micro dosing or smaller dose, try it. I mean, look, for me, the advantage of not using cannabis every day is that when I get high, I really enjoy getting high. Yeah. I miss that. I think I'd more look at it through that lens to see if, in fact, you can taper off on cannabis or have some, you know, a cannabis-free day or like each week or something like that and just see what that feels like. And then you can decide whether you want to try something like a low-dose mushroom either on your off-marijuana day or even on the days you're doing marijuana.

Okay. I'm definitely curious. Now that I know it's in New York, I'm headed there in a couple of days. So I should tell you New York, they haven't actually opened up the doors for legal sale until the beginning of the year. So it would still be a delivery service.

Still be a delivery service. Some places are opening up anyway and sort of daring the cops to arrest them so you can find them. Yeah. I mean, they've got better things to do at this point, really. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But you can easily find a delivery service. I mean, that's what everybody in New York City does, you know, is get it delivered. So whoever you're staying with, you can figure that out easily. Awesome. That's so great to know. Well, I really appreciate your advice. And, you know, it was cool to get to chat and something that I wouldn't normally get to have a conversation with on like an educated level. So that's pretty cool. I appreciate it. Awesome. Awesome. Good luck to you. Keep us posted.

Thank you so much. All right. Thanks. Will do. All right, bye. Well, our next question really fits well into what we just talked about with Katie. Carrie wrote in, she says, Dear Chelsea, I've been dating my boyfriend for four years now. We're in our late 20s. He's always very openly loved smoking weed. I don't personally partake very often because it makes my anxiety worse, but lots of my friends and family do, so I'm very familiar with being around it. In the early years of our relationship, I saw no problem with his smoking because we were young,

it seemed less destructive than drinking, and I didn't feel it was my place to judge. However, he's almost 30 now and he smokes every single day. He'll smoke right when he gets home from work and again multiple times throughout the night until we go to bed. On the weekends, he smokes almost immediately after waking up. Often, he can't even eat without it because he's used to relying on it to induce hunger. To his credit, his personality isn't altered much when he smokes. He doesn't get quiet or sleepy, as I know some people do. I still enjoy being around him, even though he sometimes does have a bad memory because of it.

My question is, how do you know when smoking weed becomes a problem? We're approaching the age where we make more serious commitments like marriage and kids, and this feels like the elephant in the room. I've spoken to him multiple times about this, but rather than having a conversation, he shuts down my concerns as me having an outdated and biased view of marijuana. In his opinion, there are no bad side effects. It's more widely becoming legal, and there's really no reason to stop or slow down. Since you openly enjoy weed more than I do, it might be interesting to have a perspective on when and if marijuana use can go too far. Carrie. Ethan, why don't you hit that out of the park? Okay, what I would just say to her is basically, if he's not really seeing any problems with his youth.

And there she said, maybe his memory isn't as good because he's smoking weed. But I think the bottom line is basically don't worry about it. Getting older is not an issue. His getting defensive in the relationship with you is not gonna be productive. He's already indicated he can't hear criticism

of that side of his life. It's quite possible that he's using this in a way that's more medical than anything else, since he's probably really not getting very high anymore. He's just using it on a very regular basis. So I can understand feeling a little irritated by the fact that that thing is always in your life and it's not something you share much, and maybe even feeling a little jealous of it in some respect. But unless you can pinpoint problems with it, I would just leave it alone. And it's quite possible that the day will come or the moment will come when he comes to the conclusion that maybe he wants to stop doing it. But if he's got his backup because you're getting more and more critical

about it, I don't think that's going to go anywhere good. Yeah, I would say the exact same thing. There's no reason, you know, it is kind of an outdated stance on it. I mean, it is becoming legal everywhere. He likes using it. And again, what Ethan said is perfectly accurate. At this point, he's probably not getting that much benefit from it unless it is a health benefit, because he's certainly probably not getting high at this point. I know when I overconsume marijuana, it takes so much to make me high. So yeah, you got to kind of just like get rid of that way of thinking and, you know, just be happy it's not something like drinking or another drug. That would be a situation if somebody came home and they relied on that, you know, marijuana is pretty benign and it's helpful to a lot of people. So you don't know what kind of anxiety he might have or what other body aches he might have that this is helping him with, that he might not even be aware of himself. It might just be for him to equalize. So I would

just try and say, be a little bit more open-hearted and open-minded. Let him do his thing and then you do your thing. Yeah. And there's that old saying of when do you know something is addictive or becoming a problem? And it's when you have negative consequences. It sounds like he's not really having negative consequences. You know, we've had people call into the show and say, you know, I really want to taper down my marijuana use or that sort of thing. So I feel like if someone thinks that they do, then like go for it. Definitely your body's telling you something, your mind is telling you something, but it sounds like he's not having any negative consequences other than this relationship issue. Yeah. I liked the way you said that. My definition of addiction is

addiction equals dependence plus problems. So if you're dependent on a drug, whether it's coffee to get up in the morning, whether it's a statin for your cholesterol or a heart drug, whether it's methadone because you were once addicted to heroin. It's not an addiction so long as that dependence on the drug is not a problem. And it sounds quite likely that with this guy, it sounds like it's basically a dependence, a serious dependence, but not really causing any problems. In fact, it sounds like the biggest problem is it could become a problem in his marriage, even if it's not causing him any problems in his own personal life. Apart from that. Well, on that note, we will take our break and we'll be right back with Ethan Nadelman and Chelsea. I'm Jason Alexander and I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really

podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly

loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us tonight. How are you, too? Hello, my friend.

Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir. Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, No Really. Yeah? Really, no really. Yeah, really.

No really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really, No Really, and you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're back. Fantastic. Well, Ethan, did you have any advice you'd like to get from Chelsea? Wow, Chelsea, you know, I was thinking about that. The first piece of advice I need from you is not specifically about drugs. You have this very successful podcast and I have my podcast, Psychoactive, which I'm trying to turn into a much bigger thing. So if you've got any advice about how to get a building audience for a podcast that talks about the whole spectrum of drugs and drug wars and drug policies and drug use, I'm all ears for

advice about doing something like that. Well, I mean, you should book a couple celebrity guests. I'll volunteer to come on and talk to you about drugs. That will help, first thing, yeah, to make it a little shiny. But what I've learned about podcasts, how long have you had your podcast? I'm in the second season now. So we started just over a year ago. Yeah. What I've learned is that it takes a couple of years for anybody, whether you're a famous person or less famous or whatever your platform is, that it takes a few years to really build and grow. But when you have a subject matter that so many people are interested right now, and it's such a part of our zeitgeist, I mean, I have no, I mean, you've got a great title and you're very knowledgeable, obviously.

So I would imagine that people are very interested in hearing more of what you have to say. So I know that certainly our listeners, plenty of them will be interested in that too. So I would just say, yeah, just keep doing it. That's how you accrue more listeners. You know, you just, it happens slowly over time. Okay, great. Well, I have one other question for you, which is, you know, when I used to be a professor and I wrote books, academic books and a lot of writing,

but in the last 10, 20 years, I've been writing less and less. And now I want to write a book about my life and about drugs and I'm kind of blocked. And I see that you've had like five or six bestsellers and a lot of them are about your life. So how did you actually get those books done and out? With a lot of cannabis, quite frankly. That's really that, that, that is the best use of cannabis that I've ever had. When I have a task at hand, a creative task, and I do all the work, but when I have to go in and polish and deliver is when I use cannabis and, or mushrooms.

Mushrooms also. Microdosing mushrooms helps me focus. But yeah, because you get organized and then you get hyper-focused. Cannabis helps me lose myself in something, but I have to have the subject there. You know what I mean? Like if I go work out, I can lose myself in working out. If I'm writing, I can lose myself in writing. If I'm sitting on my bed, I'm going to lose myself on my phone. But you just, I like to choose the activity that I'm going to lose myself in. But I would definitely say cannabis has been a huge contributor to my, the success of my books.

Wow. Wow. Well, I'll tell you, I keep meaning to start a kind of microdosing mushroom routine, but I keep forgetting to do it. So it may be that that may be the answer for me. Cause sometimes I find with cannabis, like I find a hard time writing with it. Cause I sort of forget, like I lose my train of thought. You know, I forget what it was. I wrote just, it was just thinking a few minutes ago. It's one reason I don't like giving a speech or doing an interview under the influence of cannabis because it's problematic in that way. Whereas mushrooms can be more focusing.

So I maybe have to make more of a serious effort there. Yeah. Just put it together as your responsibility to get your book done, right? You write and you need to start your mushroom routine. Sounds good. Sounds good. Ethan, thank you so much for being on the podcast today. I loved everything you had to say.

Well, look, I loved doing it. It was great to team up with you on answering those questions, Chelsea. And I really admire all the ways that you've been out there on the drug issue and on so many others. Our politics align very much. And I appreciate both your courage and sort of really speaking. I saw you were speaking out about this drug stuff before marijuana was legal. And you were speaking about psychedelics and doing episodes about it on Netflix and elsewhere when this was not quite so cool and hip. So you were one of the pioneers in

getting this out. And I really do appreciate that. Thank you. Thanks, Ethan. Thanks. Okay. Bye bye. Bye. So if you'd like advice from Chelsea, just send us an email at dearchelseaproject at gmail.com. Dear Chelsea is a production of iHeartRadio, executive produced by Nick Stumpf, produced by Catherine Law, and edited and engineered by Brad Dickert. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really No Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor,

what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you? We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.