Dear Chelsea - The Upside of Conflict with Esther Perel

Episode Date: December 7, 2023

Psychotherapist Esther Perel joins Chelsea to talk about the upsides and downsides of conflict, how to improve your relationships, and why you and your partner keep having the same argument over and over.  Then: A wife wonders if her less-than-thrilling marriage is truly over.  A sister struggles with her sense of obligation when her roommates' marriage turns polyamorous.  And a mom’s sexual assault as a teenager has her concerned for her own daughter’s future. * Find Esther’s course Turning Conflict Into Connection here. * Books mentioned on today’s episode: Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow The Island of Sea Women Between Two Kingdoms * Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at [e-mail] * Executive Producer Catherine Law Edited & Engineered by Brad Dickert * * * * * The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.  This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all.  Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hi there, Catherine. Oh, hey, Chelsea. Hi, hi, hi, hi. Jam-packed couple of days. I'm in New York City today. Yet again. Yes, I have a Jew event that I have to go to today.

What did I do yesterday? I have a Jew event that I have to go to today. What did I do yesterday? I had a lot of exciting things happen. A lot of exciting things. I landed in New York yesterday, and I saw about 16 different friends in one fell swoop. I saw so many people in one day that I didn't even get into my hotel room until 10 o'clock at night for the first time, and then I left again. Yeah, and I went on a date. That was cute. And then, oh, I went to my knee surgeon so he could give me the thumbs up for skiing because I'm heading to Whistler soon and I'm doing all my Canadian dates there. So if you're

Canadian, make sure you look, go to ChelseaHandler.com because I'm coming to a city near you over winter. I have all my Canadian dates set up from January to March. So I'm very excited about that. And I just announced Australia too. I'm coming to Australia, you guys, in July. So I think I have about five or six shows there. Anyway, but I have this little like thing on my knee for my surgery that like, it's not, the swelling isn't going down on one of the incision sites. So it looks almost like a wart. So I went into my doctor this morning and I was like, you, you need to fucking cut this off. Like, what is this? And he's like, oh, that looks like fluid. So I went down to have them drain it. And they're like, that's not fluid. It's like scar tissue. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You have to remove my leg. Full amputation. I can't have this.

I'm single. Like, I'm trying to hook up. I can't have a fucking wart on my knee. No. So I'm probably going to have to sue him. I'm not in any lawsuits right now, so I don't up. I can't have a fucking award on my knee. No. So I'm probably going to have to sue him. I'm not in any lawsuits right now, so I don't see why I shouldn't start one. I mean, you have to have one going at all times, right? Well, my father was very litigious, and I picked up a lot of that. And the last lawsuit I won, that was very satisfying. That's encouraging. I've been in two lawsuits.

One was short claims court or whatever. Small claims court. Short claims. Small claims court. I sued them once small claims court, short claims, small claims court. I sued them once for an outfit they ruined during dry cleaning. And I won like 140 bucks. I was like 22. So I felt very vindicated at that point in my life. And this is my second lawsuit. And I won that too. And I won a lot more than $140. Well, that's fantastic. I mean, personally, I wouldn't continue to roll the dice if I had like a winning streak or two for two.

I know I should probably, well, the three is a really lucky number. That's where I really cash out. Have you ever read the book Tomorrow, Tomorrow, Tomorrow? It's literally on my nightstand right now. I almost started it this weekend, but I didn't. So many people have told me to read this book, and I'm reading it. And everyone keeps saying, oh, I go, isn't it about gaming? And they're like, it is about gaming, but it's not about gaming.

But it's all about gaming. The whole book is about gaming. Yeah. But it's all about gaming. The whole book is about gaming. See, I love that, though. So I'm waiting for the story that's not about gaming to happen. But, I mean, I'm still reading about gaming, and it's a slow read for me. Oh, you know what everybody has to watch if they haven't watched American Symphony? They have to watch American Symphony. What's this?

It is fucking amazing. And it's a documentary on John Batiste and his wife. And she wrote that book, Between Two Kingdoms. Have you read that book, Catherine? No, I haven't. Yeah, that's a great book, too. It's all about her journey of being sick. And she was diagnosed with leukemia when she was like 22.

And her whole life has just basically been one transplant after another, after another, after another. But it's pretty incredible. Yeah. You know what, Chelsea? I thought of you when I read this book. I just finished The Island of the Sea Women. It came out a few years ago. Have you read this?

No, I haven't. What is that? It is fascinating. It's about this matriarchal society in South Korea and these women who dive to go get seafood, various different seafoods. And because they're the ones who dive, they're the ones with the money and the men stay home with the kids. But it is a fascinating history of South Korea and about these women. And some of them are even still alive and continue to dive to this day in modern times. It's fantastic.

I will bring you my copy next week if you want to read it. It's really good. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would love that. You would like it. I'd like any society that's all women. Yeah. And it's like historical fiction. So it gets very, very dramatic. A lot of shit happens. Oh, okay. I like historical fiction too. I didn't used to, but I've started to warm up to it. Yeah. I love history. I'm turning into one of those older people that just loves history.

I can't get enough of it. The other day I was looking up, you know, like, you know how Pearl Harbor kind of was the reason that America ended up getting into World War II. But they were having their own war, the Pacific War in Japan. But Japan had allied with Italy and Germany because I was like, my friends like, why was Japan involved in World War II? And I'm like, I feel like I know the answer to this, but I don't. And so I had to do a deep dive. And so I do love it. I do love it.

It's something that actually I can really focus on is history. Yeah. And so I do love it. I do love it. It's something that actually I can really focus on is history. Yeah. I feel like history is basically just like really good gossip about world events. You know, it's stuff that we continue to talk about and it's juicy and it's interesting and kind of wild. Yeah, sure. I'm going to start looking at history as gossip now. Yeah.

I was hoping that was my one reprieve from gossip because that seems to take up a lot of my time also. Especially when you see 16 friends in one day. People fucking love gossiping, right? Yeah, me too. Okay, so who do we have on deck today? What's our story? Actually, today we're talking with Esther Perel and she is on the line. Yeah, good morning, Esther. How are you?

Hello, hello. I'm fine. How are you? Oh, it's a pleasure to be speaking with you this morning. This is Catherine. She's our producer. Hello, hello. I'm fine. How are you? Oh, it's a pleasure to be speaking with you this morning. This is Catherine. She's our producer. Hello, Catherine. Hi there. So exciting. Okay. So, well, everybody knows you as you're a very famous psychotherapist who deals with couples, couples therapy, sex lives, sex between couples, breakdowns between couples. And you are the author of Mating in Captivity, which was a huge, huge success, which a lot of people who are listening to this podcast have read, as well as The State of Affairs. So I know that you are launching a course on conflict, which is called Turning Conflict into Connection. So let's discuss that.

Conflict and connection. Which one are you better at? I'm really good at conflict. I'm very good at conflict. You know what? Actually, it's very funny you mentioned that because I have had trouble making connection in the past few months of my life. I thought this would be the time for me to be like blossoming and meeting someone.

So there hasn't been a ton of conflict, but there also hasn't been a ton of connection. What kind of conflict person are you? What's your style? My style? Well, I've been to therapy, so I've nipped my, you know, my shortcomings in the bud, so to speak. I'm not as crazy or scary, I should say, as I used to be. I'm much more, you know, but I did do... Tame. Tame. And I understand how to speak about things and I understand that defensiveness is not really a winning argument, you know. But yes, I've experienced conflict in my relationships as everybody has. And I feel like I've gotten much better at resolving conflict.

But you need two participants that are very good at resolving conflict is what I've learned. I think the first thing you said that I want to highlight is that conflict is intrinsic to relationships. It's not that this is part and parcel of it. We disagree, we argue, we fight, and sometimes conflict is actually very helpful to redress a wrong, to create a different level of engagement, to feel more emboldened to ask for what one wants. I mean, there's a lot of good juice in conflict. But then there is also a whole other way that people sometimes get trapped into their arguments and their bickering. And there's a range, right?

Conflict is a word that's like an umbrella. Underneath it are multiple tentacles of how we fight, we disagree, we argue, we bicker, we do slow, you know, low intensity warfare or high intensity warfare. But generally, what people want is how do we fight better? But this doesn't mean resolve things, but it's how do we not devolve? How do we not fall prey to the traps and the defeating strategies that we often have when we fight? Like, how do we not bring up everything in the relationship all at once when we are arguing about one thing? How do we not go totalistic and it becomes you always and you never? How do we, you know, take responsibility and not feel like if I give in an inch, I lost my whole sense of pride and my whole identity?

How do we decide what's wise not to say, even if we are right, that there's a difference between being right and being wise? It's all of that. And in these days, especially where we often have become quite conflict avoidant, it's like, I don't want to talk to you. I don't want, I have nothing. I don't, I have nothing. We disagree, therefore you're out of my life kind of thing. We really could use sharpening our social skills

for how to be together. To deal with fighting is not about fighting. It's about actually how to relate and how to connect. Obviously the biggest roadblock for relationships is communication, right? I mean, that's pretty much all roads lead to that. Obviously, the biggest roadblock for relationships is communication, right? I mean, that's pretty much all roads lead to that. Would you agree with that? Or what do you think? I think that communication is a word that we often use to say, how do I tell you what I need, think, feel? How do I get through to you? How I get you to acquiesce with me? How do I get you to understand me, to validate me, to relate to me?

It's okay. It's the buzzwords under which a lot is subsumed, which is fine. I prefer to think about relating. You know, I asked a question recently that became the favorite of mine for the last two weeks. You get a question and you try it out in many spaces. Did you grow up playing freely on the street? I did, yes. An enormous amount of people no longer do that. And what you got when you played freely on the street, and I asked this in four different countries where I've been touring, is that you had unscripted, unmonitored, unchoreographed social interaction. You practiced social negotiation. You played, you fought, you made

rules, you broke rules, you competed, you were jealous, you made friends. This whole thing allowed you to learn how to relate and to develop social skills. When we say we don't communicate, it's not true. We communicate all the time. We communicate with silence. We communicate with lift eyebrows. We communicate with smirks. We communicate with moving our head away. We communicate by arguing back. We communicate. We're just not communicating in a way that connects us. So when people say we don't communicate, what they're saying is we're not connecting. We're fighting.

We are apart. We are experiencing each other as enemies. We are saying things as if we don't care about the person that we're saying it to when, in fact, it's the person that we need for their life. We communicate nonstop, but some of our communication creates productive interactions, and some of our communication is destructive or defeating or disrupting. So in the course, you talk about that. You talk about constructive versus destructive conflict. So can you give us an example of the two?

Which one shall I start with? The negative, I think. Because we are very, very creative in our negative ways of how we fight. I mean, here are sure bets to torpedo your relationship, to undermine it, right? So we just went through one. I'll just name it. It's called kitchen sinking, right? We're arguing about whatever.

You didn't water the plants or I asked you to do something and you didn't do it or I forgot one more time, you know, whatever. But in the course of this argument, we are putting in 10 years of a relationship and we put pile up all the dirty dishes and in fact you can't wash a single dish when you've got them all piled up on top of each other or I disqualify everything you say you can give me 10 things and all these things I actually have no problem with but I'll argue with the one thing that I have that I can disagree with you on. Seriously, that becomes really of biblical proportion. Basically, looking for evidence that reinforces my belief. I

fundamentally think you don't care about me, and everything that I bring up are proofs that I am right, even if it's the thing I want to feel the least. I mean, the last thing I want to believe is that you don't care about me, but I'm going to prove you that you don't care about me. And it's so twisted. I'm also going to, of course, think that when I was late, it's because there was traffic, you know, but when you are late, it's because you are really not attentive and not responsible. Mine is circumstantial. Yours is characterological.

Those are some of the classic negatives. We escalate. I say something, you bring up something else that is bigger than mine. And then I say, yeah, you really want to talk about it? Let me remind you this one. And in the end, we're both completely polarized and lonely in our corners. And, you know, where's the relationship? But it's productive.

It's I'm really pissed, you know, and I want to tell you why. And you tell it and you don't and you don't go cursing the person and you don't go you always you never, you know, and you go totalistic in your categorical thinking. You stick to the point, you put you express your anger, your categorical thinking, you stick to the point, you express your anger, your discontent, your disbelief, even your fury. It doesn't matter. It's okay. And then you say what you have to say. And now you shut up and you listen for a minute.

And hopefully on the other side, there's someone who either says, I get it why you're so pissed, or it's really hard for me to hear how pissed you are because it was really not my intention that's absolutely not what i thought about this or you have a point this is true i have a person earlier today says to me and he says you know i really want us i want us to be close i want us to do things i want us to go out i want to and then she says he says you you know, I really want us to be close. I want us to do things. I want us to go out. And then he says, you're not there. You're not there.

And then she says, give me an example. That's like the killer one. Give me an example because the first thing you're going to do with the example is shut it down, right? So he gives examples. And so, of course, she argues with every example. And she tries to say, and basically he says, but you're there for all your friends, you know,

and you're just not there. And basically I said to her, it he says, but you're there for all your friends, you know, and you're just not there. And basically I said to her, I was like, but you agree with him. Why don't you just tell him you're right? For some reason, I have an energy for my friends. I don't have for you. And I'm sorry. I get it why it's upsetting to you.

And honestly, it's upsetting to me too, because I actually don't understand why I have zero energy to bring into our relationship. That makes a conversation very short, rather than arguing with every example that he gave to prove to him that he shouldn't feel lonely because she's really present. She's not. But so then what's the next step? Once somebody like admits something like that, like you're right, I don't have the energy for you that I have for my girlfriends. Then what? And I don't know why. And I completely can see why that's upsetting to you. And you know what? It's upsetting to me too, because I don't understand it and I don't like it and I don't know what to do about it, but I'm going to take,

I'm going to take it seriously. I'm sorry. It's like, That's the beginning is you acknowledge a shared reality. Then what? Then you often go from the anger to the sadness, to the longing, to the yearning, to the loss. Which is a nicer place to be to start a conversation. Absolutely. Okay. So talk about explosive versus implosives. So imagine explosives is I'm one, you know, when I get in there, my volume goes up, you know, and if you don't answer my value goes, my volume goes up a little more, you know, and, and I'm living with someone who the higher I go, the quieter they go and they think that because they're quiet at some point you know quiet

people sometimes things if i don't say anything at some point she will stop but of course she she or whoever that person is doesn't necessarily stop because if you don't answer then i feel like i'm talking to the wind and then i just become more and more vociferous because there is no container. Whereas if you just said to me, I get it, I hear you, something, then I know my point has crossed the bridge and has arrived on the other side of the river. So what you have is people who are fighters, people who are more into flight. And sometimes you have a dynamic where you have one fight, one flight. And it goes like this. So there's three primary choreographies. These are just ways of organizing what we see and so that we can enter, you know, it's like, what's the

theater of this argument? How do these people, how do these people get stuck? What do they say? And what do they do to each other? And what are they not saying or doing that would make it better for them when they go into this cycle of conflict? And do you meet with people a lot where you feel like this must have happened? I don't know if this is a frequent thing where you feel like one of the partners is just unable to do the work or to be able to hear the other person and that you found the situation hopeless? Or do you feel like there's always a kernel of something you can deliver to them to help them engage? I'll do my best. And sometimes I think not yet or not today.

You know, I'm thinking of an episode in the podcast and where should we begin where they have vicious fights so they both explode when she asks him to do something he instantly hears his dad giving him orders when he doesn't do what she asks she instantly experiences once again i'm going to be all alone I took care of everybody in my family growing up. And this puts me right back there again. It's all on me. And so the first thing you do that you hope people can transition with you is instead of what is it that you're fighting about, like the cat litter in their case, it's what is it that you're fighting for? Which in her case is I'm fighting not to be all alone. In his case is I'm fighting not to be dismissed by my father.

I was going to put an adjective, but I won't. And what I ended up doing with them, which was really, you know, you try anything you can when you've got this crescendo going. I just said at one point, can I just ask you something? Would you please both

lie flat on the floor and continue the argument now there's something about when we fight we like we are mammals we are upright our shoulders go up our neck goes in our claws come out you know but if you lie flat on the floor it's kind of hard to continue so you you go into the body you try through the instrument of the body to say you you know, let's see if I can get you unglued from these inevitable corners where you find yourself. On occasion, somebody says, I'm not lying down. Or this is ridiculous. Or what's that going to do? Or why shall I?

Or why me? You know, why do you keep pointing your finger at me? And then you come back the next time and you say, this is not about pointing a finger at you, but you don't want to live like this. You wouldn't be here. Of course, I understand couples therapy is sometimes a drop-off center, right? You bring your partner to get fixed and you say, I'm an expert and I can help you if you need money. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. It's like, I've been to therapy, let me show you the way. Exactly. That never works either. Okay, we're going to take a quick break and then we're going to come back and take some callers. 2025 is bound to be a fascinating year.

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founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. And we're back. I was just thinking about the pressure it must, I mean, obviously this is your chosen career. I know you're very successful at it. But the pressure that you must feel with couples coming in, because I know I've been a couples therapy. And I was like, all right, it's on you. If you can save this relationship, great. But this is your responsibility now. I mean, the pressure you must feel must be immense. So the first thing I want to tell you, Chelsea, is I've met you before. Like, I know this entrance point.

And the first thought that comes to mind is I cannot want this more than you need to want it yourself because it's not my relationship. I cannot take this on where I care more about what's going to happen to the two of you than you. So I care a ton, but I am disempowered if I care more than the person whose own relationship is at stake. I feel a tremendous sense of responsibility. I also think that often people come past due date. And, you know, it depends what goodwill is left, how much people really want this to change. If they just want to be right, then there's a good chance that they will be right and alone. Right.

And from there, let's transition into callers. Our first question is not really about conflict, but Crystal is our email sender today. Dear Chelsea, when I was 37, I was diagnosed with breast cancer and had to go through it, all of it, all at once, freezing my eggs, double mastectomy, and chemo. Two years later, and I'm on the other side of it, cancer-free and finally feeling ready to date and have sex again. Here's the thing. I had reconstructive surgery shortly after I was diagnosed. My new boobs look perfectly fine. They aren't in 10 and 2 positions or anything, but they're pretty hard

and there are spots I can feel the crinkle of the implants. When I asked my surgeon if they were ever going to feel any better, she explained they're never going to fully feel like real boobs since my milk ducts and fat tissue are gone. It's just the bags in there. It was upsetting to wrap my head around, but it is what it is. I guess I should be thankful that I still have my nipples. Here are my questions. Now that I'm about to start dating again, should I tell a guy about my boobs if I want to have sex with him? Do I not say anything because it's a heavy, awkward conversation and frankly, a turnoff? If I don't say anything, I'm worried I'll be super self-conscious during sex and be caught up studying his reaction.

Also, how do I mentally prepare myself in case some guy says something insensitive or has a less than desirable reaction? How do I reframe this very deep insecurity for myself? Thanks for all you do, Crystal. Okay, Esther, why don't you go first since you're the professional? So I'll just tell you what came up for me as I'm listening to you, Crystal, is that you are a 37-year-old woman who has just gone through a huge experience and you have gone through something that most of us do not know. And you're coming out on the other side and you want to re-engage with life and you want to reconnect with the erotic force inside of you and that is absolutely beautiful and you are a woman

with a whole body and all kinds of other organs and and and your biggest organ is your skin and you're focusing on one thing your boobs if you If you had herpes, it would be a different story. It would affect the other person. In this case, this is yours. And as you get to know the person you're dating, at some point you'd start to talk about what have been some important experiences in your life. And you'll probably end up talking about,

I had cancer very young and this is what happened to me. And part of that you know and how do you feel today well one thing that I have is this but I am alive and I am healthy and all of that proceeds and that's where you withdraw your sense of strength and your resilience and your confidence rather than just focusing on the insecurity it's It may not necessarily be a turn off. You don't know if you mind someone for whom your breasts are their fetish or what. But bring the rest of who you are to the experience. And at some point, when you feel more comfortable,

when you feel a little more trusting, when you've heard a little bit the reactions about other things, then you just say and then you ask, how does that information land on you? You know, lead it. Don't be too scared. Most of the time, the people won't know what to say. So if you hold the conversation and you lead it with confidence,

you will feel so empowered, actually. What is it like for you that this is a situation? Is that even important to you? You can be a wonderful lover regardless of what happens to your breasts. And that's what really matters is what you end up experiencing together with this person. If they end up focusing just on that, you're probably at the wrong address. Yeah. And also, I would like to say additionally, there are so many things as a woman that I

get turned off by from men if I'm on a date or whatever. And when you really like someone, that all flies away anyway. It doesn't matter. You know, every woman has something they're insecure about anyway. You're just focusing on that because that is your issue right now. But what, you know, what Esther said is so much more important and valuable. You're alive. You're healthy.

You're ready to mingle. You want to have some action. Like you want to be in love and be in a relationship. That's more important than a couple of lumps or bumps or whatever you feel like isn't perfect about your breasts. Every woman has a body part that they're not happy about. You know, eventually you just have to get over it and realize what your attributes are or what the best things about you are that you love, you know, and then that comes across too. So yeah, get out there, sister. Yeah. And I think, you know, as Tara, I'm so glad you brought up like that might be somebody's like fetish or, you know, some guys are like, that's what they love. They love fake boobs. So they're like very into that. Or they might be an ass man. Who knows? Yeah. They

might not care about boobs at all. So it's like you're worrying about something that you're creating a worry that you don't have to. You go out there and be your lovely, beautiful self. Everybody has a little thing that they don't like. So you're not alone in that. And the more important thing is that you're healthy and you're able to go on dates. I think the concern is real. I understand the question and I really appreciate you asking the question

because you're just coming out and there is this kind of, who am I now? And there is a sense that this is not the body that you knew, but you will find yourself more at ease inside your own skin as you date people. And hopefully you date mature people for whom what matters is what is created between the two of you, not what hangs on you. What would you say is the right sort of timing to bring this up? Is it, you know, obviously it's not while you're like walking in the front door making out. But, you know, is it early on? Is it after you've kind of gotten to know the person?

Is it maybe after you've even had sex once, you know? I don't think there's a rule on these things, but I think that what you want is a broader conversation. The conversation is, you know, it can be, have you ever had transformative experiences? Have you ever been close to death? Have you ever felt physically vulnerable? Have you known fear? Have you known, you know, there's other questions that are broad questions. And then you bring that question to you and you say, actually, yes, I once was diagnosed with cancer. And so that's how it's brought in. It's not like this is part of your CV, you know, and you have to

share this as your data. You know, this is not data. This is stuff that grows out of exploration and discovery of two people who get to know each other. And you may find that you have no idea what people bring, what experiences people have. They may not have had cancer themselves, but there's a good chance that they know somebody who died of it or who had it or survived it or, you know, so it's that conversation. It has to do with trust. It has to do with context. This was a good moment to say it. Don't say it when you're naked. I actually would not. Don't say it while you're walking together and, you know, and you're in motion so that the stress can also kind of evacuate through the, through the body and don't bring it as I it as, I have a secret to tell you.

This is not a secret and it's not a piece of data. You don't owe anything. This is, as we're getting to know each other, one of the important things to know about me is this experience that I had. As I have had other very important experiences, maybe this one has shaped me even more than anything else. And in the course of that experience, you talk about, you know, actually one of the things that

has stayed with me is that I had to have reconstructive surgery. And you don't say, is that okay with you? You just say, that's a part, it's a piece of my life. That's not okay with you. Awesome. Our next question comes from Sammy. She is 36. Dear Chelsea, last year, three days before I moved in with my sister, her husband informed me that they now have an open marriage and my sister is dating a 22-year-old gal. Needless to say, I was a little shocked and put off by the situation. Polyamory in general doesn't bother me, but my sister and her husband already don't have the strongest marriage. Bringing in this third person has proven nothing more than the catastrophe you'd imagine.

On top of that, they tend to be so wrapped up in the relationship, they completely forget they have children. I hear several times a week from both of them, I need to spend more time with the kids, but this is never done. In fact, they spend more time fighting about their situation than anything. Then they make up and watch Big Love or Sister Wives and pretend they have this perfect union. A few months later, the girl moved into the house. She isn't working or going to school. My sister and brother-in-law have added her to their bank accounts now and their will and as an emergency contact for kids at the school, literally leaving me to be nothing but a babysitter when they want to do things as a throuple. They've basically made me the enforcer of rules, chores, etc. Furthermore, I pay rent to live here, and the paramour does not.

Big surprise, I know. I went from being the cool aunt to the mean aunt, and all I want is for my nieces and nephews to give me the same love and respect they give their other aunts and uncles. I love my sister and the kids, but this whole situation is nothing more than a disaster waiting to blow up bigger than it already is. I'll eventually move out of the house. I told my sister when I moved in I'd stay for two years to help with the mortgage, etc., and I plan to keep my word on that. But what can I do in the meantime? Love and respect, Sammy. Hi, Sam. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. What a hot mess of a situation you're in. Oh, no. The understatement of the year. Oh, my gosh. Okay. Esther, you go first. I'm dying to hear what you have to say about this. What are you doing there?

Seriously. I mean, I offered to pay for the mortgage and I'm going to keep my commitment. I mean, where is your life? I was in a place where I was struggling on my own. So I was happy to come help my sister out with her family. And I had a place to stay and a roof over my head, but I wasn't expecting all of this. Okay. But now things have changed. So you may have had very good reasons for why you chose to do this back then. This is absolutely not a judgment, but now it's like, why, what are you doing there? Why are you doing this?

Let them be, let them swim in their own messes and be available to the kids if you want to and have a life of your own you're absorbing this whole drama that isn't yours and that doesn't need a fight that just needs simply i think that at this moment your lives have evolved in a certain way and I need to retreat and kind of resume my own track. What's standing in the way of you doing that? Currently, finances. I'm working on paying some stuff back, some loans back. So as soon as that is all taken care of, my goal is to run as fast as I can.

And you're paying rent, right? So can you pay that rent to somebody else? Yes, but probably not as nice of the rent that I'm paying now. I'm still paying rent, but it's still significantly less than my own place for sure. Yeah, no, but is there somebody else? Can you rent a room in someone else's big house? Possibly. I mean, I've looked, I'm on, you know, Facebook sites with renting rooms and that kind of stuff. And I've been reaching out and inquiring, but a lot of it is I have a dog and a cat and a lot of people don't allow pets. So that's kind of a little bit of a wall too.

So I'm actively working on it. And I have, you know, friends that are looking and helping me as well. But- Right. I think that that and I have, you know, friends that are looking and helping me as well. But right. I think that that's the primary. You know, this is not about what do you tell your sister? What do you tell the other woman? What do you tell? You know, it's really challenging when you are in the midst of another family and you see things that hurt other people and therefore hurt you. So you watch the little smurfs and you say, I feel for them.

Nobody's attending to them. I have to be here, but nobody appreciates what I do. So here I am. So I'm in a bind because I want to attend to them, but what did you call it? The hired maid. And you'll continue your relationship with them. But you don't want to be in a situation where you thought you were coming in

as a special person, as the sister of, as this family member, as the savior of the day. So this is what's happened is that you feel devalued and you feel like you have zero status and you feel taken for granted and you feel like you lost, you know, you have zero status and you feel taken for granted and you feel underappreciated. And this whole scenario, it won't change necessarily. You can have a conversation and just say, here's what is going on. And then they may either say, yes, this is true,

or they may say you're oversensitive. You know, you're making a big deal out of nothing. Or what exactly do you want for us to give you a price at the end of every week? You may be appreciated or dismissed, but there's also another way to just say, this is not my place at this moment. And so if you are actively looking, that's probably what I would suggest. Yeah. And I think the best way, you said you're helping your sister. You had committed to helping your sister pay the rent. Is that part of the reason you moved in? Yeah, because honestly, the house that they bought, they bought it at kind of a crazy time. And I think they're kind of financially dependent on me, too. So I think a big reason that she hasn't already kicked me out is because they're dependent on that income. Right. So that becomes very icky, right? You need to stay because you have a money issue and you need them and they need you to stay. Everybody would rather not be together, but we all have financially dependence on each other.

And so it becomes this icky thing. I don't want to be with you, but I have no choice. I don't want to be with you, but I have no choice. Right. Right. And Sammy, can I ask how old the kids are? They are 12. Okay. Okay. Well, you know, mentioning that the kids have, you feel like the kids have lost respect for you. I would say, I would attribute that to you allowing yourself to be

caught up in this situation. You moving out would be another way to reclaim their respect for you because you tolerating this situation also isn't setting the greatest example. I know you probably feel a little bit responsible because they are your niece and nephews, but your responsibility, A, first and foremost is to yourself, is to get yourself out of that situation. And then you can be actively a much better influence and all of the things that you are to them by kind of extricating yourself. I mean, I agree. You got to get yourself out of that situation because listen, there's a lot of judgment coming from you and maybe rightfully so, because it does sound like a hot mess, but that's not good for any dynamic at all. You're

all just going to get pissed and bitter. The 22 year old girl should be paying rent. You shouldn't be working and paying rent. It's one or the other. You know, if you're staying there, if you're babysitting for them all the time, then why are you paying rent? But listen, forget about all that convoluted stuff. It's just more important. You'll find somebody who accepts a cat and dog, get a nice humble room so you can work to pay off what you need to pay off in this interim time and reclaim your self-respect because you're not in a situation where you're feeling respectful towards yourself because of the people that you're surrounded with. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think you will feel better getting out of there, you know, and you will have less judgment towards them when it's not in your face every single day.

Right. Absolutely. You would be a very good therapist. Thank you. Making sure that the kids know that you're available to them and having that conversation with them, even though right now they kind of like are annoyed with you or whatever, because you're the only one setting any rules. Like they're probably going to be a little feral for a little while because, you know, mom and dad aren't paying attention, but like checking in with them, letting them know that you're there, I think is maybe the best thing that you can do. And be firm. Listen, be firm with kids. Kids like boundaries. Even if they don't act like it,

it works. It always works to be firm as an adult with children so that they know where you stand and they're not going to take advantage of you. You're not going to put up with any bullshit. You're there. You love them. They can come to you. Your love is unconditional, but you're not going to put up with any sort of behavior. Awesome. Thank you so much. I think it's kind of the kick in the butt that I need because you can tell yourself whatever you want to tell yourself, but you kind of have to hear it from an outside source before you can really give yourself the push. It's said with care from the three of us. Absolutely. Yeah. No, I know that.

I know that. Sending you lots of love and I'm sure you'll find a place soon. So keep on trucking. Thank you so much for having me. You're welcome. It was a pleasure. Thanks, Sammy. Bye-bye. That is really one hot mess of a situation. I know. And having added this woman to their will

and their bank accounts, I'm like, oh, geez, what is going on? Will and bank accounts? What is that about? I mean, are they on ecstasy? Like, what are they thinking? I imagine so. 2025 is bound to be a fascinating year.

It's going to be filled with money challenges and opportunities. I'm Joel. Oh, and I am Matt. And we're the hosts of How To Money. We want to be with you every step of the way in your financial journey this year, offering the information and insights you need to thrive financially. Yeah, whether you find yourself up to your eyeballs in student loan debt, or you've got a sky-high credit card balance because you went a little overboard with the holiday spending, or maybe you're looking to optimize your retirement accounts so you can

retire early, well, How to Money will help you to change your relationship with money so you can stress less and grow your net worth. That's right. How to Money comes help you to change your relationship with money so you can stress less and grow your net worth. That's right. How to Money comes out three times a week, Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays, for money advice without the judgment and jargon. Listen to How to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really, No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like

why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal? The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth.

Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. Mr. Bryan Cranston is with us today. How are you, too? Hello, my friend. Wayne Knight about Jurassic Park. Wayne Knight, welcome to Really, No Really, sir.

Bless you all. Hello, Newman. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really, No Really. Yeah, Really. And you never know when Howie Mandel might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really? No, really. Yeah, really.

No, really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. It's called Really? No, Really? And you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, everyone. you get your podcasts. podcast, Moms Who Puck, we're opening up about the chaos of our daily lives between the juggle of being athletes, raising children, and all the messiness in between. We're also turning to fellow athletes and beyond to learn about their parenthood journeys and collect valuable advice, like FIFA World Cup winner Ashlyn Harris. I wish my village would have prepared me for how hard motherhood was going to be. And Peloton instructor and Ratchet Mom Club founder, Kirsten Ferguson. And I remember going in there a hot mess. So listen to Moms Who Puck, a production of iHeart Women's Sports and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment on the iHeartRadio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Elf Beauty, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. Well, our next caller is Laura, and she had a bit of a traumatic experience but is wondering how this is going to affect her daughter. So Laura says, I'm now 37, but when I was 18, I was invited to a party by an older guy. My friend and her boyfriend came with, but my interaction with this guy quickly went south. He pushed me with full force into a bush on the side of the house where no one was and jumped on top of me. Even typing this, it makes me feel so angry. My friend and her boyfriend thankfully noticed I was gone, came looking for me, and rustled him off of me.

Almost 20 years later, I live in a small town and he is a cop here. Seeing him makes me so uncomfortable. I'm married now and my husband fully knows the whole story and hates him deeply too. But I have a beautiful young daughter I'm raising and I'm so deeply terrified of the what-ifs for her experience with males. How do I cope with the fear of what could happen? I know it's not useful or helpful to me at all, but it's hard not to be so scared. Laura. Hi, cutie. Esther Perel is here today as our special guest.

Hello, hello. Oh, wow. Hi. Okay, so the guy is a police officer in your neighborhood. Have you and him actually met? After the incident? Yes, since he's seen? Yes, now as the, and do you have a sense when you meet him that he knows that you know that he knows?

Oh, 100%, 100%. Actually, three or four weeks ago, my husband's truck got broken into and we called the police and he of course was the officer to show up. And then? and we called the police and he of course was the officer to show up and then my husband knows but it was very uncomfortable because I mean I have zero trust in him obviously because of what he did to me so I mean just kind of felt like I don't know how to put it but like no matter what he didn't really care as much you know because he knew what I knew and he had no idea that I guess he kind of like thought it was a secret routine he and I I could kind of tell he didn't think I had told my

husband I could tell but and at the time my husband's not very confrontational so he wasn't gonna say anything about it not so he didn't want to embarrass me but yeah it was it was very uncomfortable and then he gave me his email address too, so I could send video footage of the guy who got into the truck. So it just, it felt like a never ending process. I didn't want to speak to him or see him ever again. But I mean, that's impossible in this town. Do you ever want to have a conversation with him? Do you feel a need to tell him, you know, I want this to be clear between us?

I've thought about that and I don't know if I I think it would just be for me because he doesn't seem remorseful and I can only tell by you know how he handled the situation recently but even at the time and the person he's been since then towards me he doesn't seem like like he would ever care, like at all. It would never affect him. Okay, then we have a thing. But then you're asking about your daughter. I think when I listened to the story, here's what came up for me. You had good friends who went with you.

Yes, yes. You had friends who instantly noticed when you were not there. Thank goodness, yes. So what this tells you is there are situations where you don't go alone there are situations where you go with very close friends and you have a little quick code in advance if any of us is absent for more than you know we go looking and you teach that to your daughter you don't teach fear but you teach that to your daughter. You don't teach fear, but you teach the need to understand, to have good judgment and to have situations where, especially if there's going to be drinking involved or this or that, to never just be on your own. Because we need to watch out for each other.

And then later, much later, I felt at some point it matters. You just say, you know, part of why I'm so vigilant is because, and I just want to make sure that, you know, this never happens to you. And it's okay to tell, you don't have to give details, but you can just say, you know, I once went to a party and this is what happened. You don't have to say who it is or any of that, but just to say my vigilance comes from somewhere.

It has a good intention. have to say who it is or any of that but just to say my vigilance comes from somewhere it is it has a good intention i'm not here to to restrain you and control you and that's it you're part of you will remain vigilant sometimes you will feel hyper vigilant sometimes you will just feel reasonably careful and sometimes you won't know if you are being too much of something or too little of something because once you have these kind of experiences that take you outside of the limits then you don't then that's that's what gets shaken is the sense of the container the limits where is safety am i being overly careful am i being overly casual and that is a part of what we stay with when we have had boundaries infringed upon like that.

Right. No, that makes sense. I guess they call me like a helicopter mom, I guess you'd say. I'm like extra worried all the time. And I feel like I'm constantly on, if that makes sense. Yes, of course. Of course. But you also want to teach her as best you can to recognize the science. Because if you take over and you become the watchtower,

then you actually don't, then she may have underdeveloped skills that she could develop herself. It's that fine balance that you want to, you want to be careful for her, but you don't want to take over to the point where she becomes less capable of being in the world because you are her flashlight. Yeah, I think that's very sagacious advice. And I also would just add that, you know, back to him being a police officer in your community, you don't have to have him show up if and when you ever need the police to come to your house again. There's no reason that you ever have to interact with him again. You can easily, I know you live in a small town, but there's no reason that you

can't go to the police station and be very honest. I mean, I know you probably don't want to start something in a very small town, but say, I don't want him coming to my house ever again. Like this has to, you know, if there's an emergency, I want even in, you know, you're not going to want to do it in the moment of an emergency, but he doesn't care. Just like you said, he didn't care about your car being stolen. There's no reason you have to sit with your, somebody who assaulted you in that dynamic. You can very clearly go in there, explain what happened and say, I'm not, I'm not, I don't want this police officer.

Or you can leave out the story and just say, I don't want this police officer ever coming to my house again, you know, and let them be very clear about the fact that in case of an emergency or anything else that comes up that they can't send him there. You know, there's that's not fair to you. And that's ridiculous. You could press, you know, you could have pressed charges if you wanted to. Obviously, there's a statute of limitations. But, you know, that is not okay for him to come to your house and you have to interact with him as somebody who's going to protect you. Yeah. And re-traumatize you. Have you had any therapy around that experience specifically?

Because I can feel it in your body still, even just reading your email. Actually, the year afterwards, I went to my gynecologist for my appointment. And I know it sounds silly because I was 18 at the time, but I always my mom goes with me. So my mom was there and he asked in front of my mom, even if something had happened to me physically. So of course, then the conversation got brought up with my mom. So I did see a counselor after that. But actually here as of lately, just with stuff going on with my daughter, I got back into therapy online online and it's been very resourceful for me with everything going on. But here lately, we've started to like dig deeper into the past.

So I think now, especially talking with you guys, I think it would be a good idea to bring it up. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes, yes, definitely. And you're going to be a better mom for it also, you know, dealing with your trauma, getting it be a better mom for it also, you know, dealing with your trauma, getting it out of your body, being empowered, you know, which is what you need to be as a mother and as a woman. Thank you. I appreciate that because the most important thing to me is to make sure I raise her to be strong and a good woman and that she doesn't let, I hope she doesn't let anything go on

with her like I did. I should have, I feel like I should have fought back a little bit more, but I know it doesn't let anything go on with her. Like I did. I should have, I feel like I should have fought back a little bit more, but I know it wasn't on me. It was on him, but still the situation was. Yeah. But you don't know what you're going to do in those situations. People are in shock. Don't beat yourself up for that. You don't know what you're going to do in a situation. And you know, when you're taken off guard, you can't be responsible for your actions in that moment. Yeah. So. Absolutely. But thank you for calling in and I hope that was helpful.

Thank you. Absolutely. It was. Thank you so much. And it was a pleasure talking with you all and meeting you all very much. Thanks, Laura. Thank you.

Bye Laura. Well, let's take a quick break and we'll be back with a final question. Okie dokie. 2025 is bound to be a fascinating year. It's going to be filled with money challenges and opportunities. I'm Joel. Oh, and I am Matt.

And we're the hosts of How To Money. We want to be with you every step of the way in your financial journey this year, offering the information and insights you need to thrive financially. Yeah, whether you find yourself up to your eyeballs in student loan debt, or you've got a sky-high credit card balance because you went a little overboard with the holiday spending, or maybe you're looking to optimize your retirement accounts so you can retire early, well, How to Money will help you to change your relationship with money so you can stress less and grow your net worth.

That's right. How to money comes out three times a week, Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays for money advice without the judgment and jargon. Listen to how to money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together on the Really No Really podcast, our mission is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why they refuse to make the bathroom door go all the way to the floor. We got the answer. Will space junk block your cell signal?

The astronaut who almost drowned during a spacewalk gives us the answer. We talk with the scientist who figured out if your dog truly loves you and the one bringing back the woolly mammoth. Plus, does Tom Cruise really do his own stunts? His stuntman reveals the answer. And you never know who's going to drop by. We'll be right back. And I might just stop by to talk about judging. Really? That's the opening? Really? No, really. Yeah, really. No, really. Go to reallynoreally.com. And register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead.

It's called Really? No, Really? And you can find it on the iHeartRadio app, on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everyone. I'm Madison Packer, a pro hockey veteran going on my 10th season in New York. And I'm Anya Packer, a former pro hockey player and now a full Madison Packer stan. Anya and I met through hockey, and now we're married and moms to two awesome toddlers. And on our new podcast, Moms Who Puck, we're opening up about the chaos of our daily lives between the juggle of being athletes, raising children, and all the messiness in between. We're also turning to fellow athletes and beyond to learn about their parenthood journeys and collect valuable advice. Like FIFA World Cup winner Ashlyn Harris. I wish my village would have prepared me for how hard motherhood was going to be. And Peloton instructor and Ratchet Mom Club founder,

Kirsten Ferguson. And I remember going in there a hot mess. So listen to Moms Who Puck, a production of iHeart Women's Sports and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Elf Beauty, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports.

And we're back. We are back. Lindsay says, Dear Chelsea, I don't know if I should stay married. I've been with my husband for eight years, married for one, and we have two little kids, two and four. I also have an older stepdaughter. About seven months ago, I had a very sudden overnight awakening where I suddenly felt like all the small things about my relationship I'd ignored became big issues for me. For example, my husband doesn't really have any friends. If we do things socially, I plan or get the invite and he comes along. He doesn't have a separate social life at all. I'm very driven. I'm an ambitious person with lots of goals. I recently asked him what his goals were for the future and he didn't have a

single one. Nothing more than what it is now. This is okay, I think. It's just wildly different from me. When I talk about my goals, he says, oh, you're just going to leave me behind one day. I'm scared to stay small in order to keep the peace at home. He's a wonderful dad, and he takes care of his share of things around the house, but as usual, I do more than 50% of the kids' stuff. We also don't communicate. At times, we don't say a single word before he leaves the house in the morning. He doesn't ask me questions or engage in things I have going on. Basically, we're not active participants in each other's lives. We cohabitate, raise kids together, but are not connected. And I am craving communication. I love to talk and have deep conversations, and I feel very deprived of that. I've explained to him how lonely I feel and how

unhappy I am at times. We have couples therapy scheduled, and I feel heartbroken by the idea of splitting my kids. I also know there's an issue because I have feelings for someone else. This is the second person in a handful of months I have met and felt feelings for. There's nothing happening there at all. I just feel strongly for someone else, which feels important in this situation. The problem seems to be that I am settling for good and dreaming of great. It's very hard to choose to leave a good man with a decent job who's a great dad. I'm terrified of the dating world and of heartbreak.

I just don't know what to do or how to do it. I'm really afraid of making a huge mistake. Thanks so much for reading, Lindsay. That seems to be such a recurring theme, right? The idea that they want something better, but they're also scared to go get it. So, you know, they're eight years together, one year married. And my first question is, Lindsay, how did you meet? And what drew you to this man? I mean, what's the origin story? Obviously, he would not have said this when you met him. So what drew you to him? What was it? And where did you come from before that he was the person that you chose at that moment. I think that that would give

me a lot of information in terms of where she's landing at this moment. Because often the very things that one is complaining about are the same things that one found initially attractive. You know, he was stable, he was a good dad, he was reliable, he was there for me and this may probably come on the heels of i was in another relationship that was unstable that was not reliable you know there's a yin yang in our lives about this so this is the first thing and then i have a sense that it may be a coincidence that the seven months ago when this lady woke up, when this woman woke up is also the seven months when she met this new person that she has feelings for. You know, these things are often well-timed. And so at this moment, what are these new feelings or are these feelings that have

taken on a new intensity because you are flirting in your mind with the idea of another person? And then this notion that you're going to couples therapy, but you hate to break up your family. You're not going to couples therapy to break up your family, but you may be going to couples therapy to understand that the man you are with now is the man you've always been with. And that this is about also coming to terms with your choice. No, he may not be an emoter. He may be more on a spectrum. He may be not a person who has great ambitions, but he's a person who will support your ambitions. And that is a perfectly valuable platform as well.

He will be there so that you can go out into the world and he will accompany you. And he won't argue with where you ask him to come. You may want someone who has their own life and their own initiatives and all of that. Did he have them when you met? Did he forego them in order to solidify his connection with you? It's like, there's a few pieces of information here that would help say this is the

direction or that this is not about, I'm willing to let go of good for great. This is, I don't think that this is a question about how can I optimize and maximize my life. This is fundamentally about you coming to terms with the choice you made that you may or may not have acknowledged to yourself from day one. You know, I think a lot of people feel this way. Be careful what you wish for, right? You could be in a relationship with somebody who has a million things going on, and then you could feel ignored and invisible and that you're not getting enough from that person. So it's like there is this feeling of the grass is always greener, Esther, like with

couples, you know, they get to these places. You took my sentence away. I was going to go there and I decided to wait. But yes, it's like, you know, when you are with someone who is very active and has a whole life, the fault line is, you know, you're not available for me. When you are with a person who is available for you

but doesn't have many other things, then it's, you know, you're too dependent on me. In both cases, the question is less about this man and more about this woman and the nature of her relationship to him. And this idea that she has to make herself small in order to maintain the peace, no. No. He's maybe not asking that either.

If you say, you know, if I lift my boat, it lifts all boats. And we are going on this together. And what I get from you is the support for my ambitions. That's what matters. Not does he have his own, you know. What you want is to know what he does with yours. Is he threatened by it? When he says you may one day leave me,

it's because you keep telling him that he's a bum and you don't really find him interesting or attractive because he doesn't have anything pulling him. I mean, what's the dialogue that we don't hear here is what I would like to understand. And one last thing I would add maybe is sometimes your relationship is the source of the nurturance, of the happiness, of the engagement. But sometimes the relationship is more of a scaffolding. And the scaffolding that makes it available for you to go

into the world and to get your food and your nourishment and your engagements and your ambitions met there. And those are two viable models. It may be that in this instance, what's between the two of you is less about the intimacy of the connection as between what this relationship gives to each of you makes possible for both of you in life. And that is also a respectable choice, just so you know. It may not be the one she chooses to make, but it is a very common choice. It just is often not named like this, but it is a very clear decision. And I also would add, looking at counseling as an opportunity, not as a failure, like you're going to go to counseling and there's a huge opportunity for growth there between you and

your partner reconnecting and rediscovering each other in a way that you hadn't before. It's an opportunity for your partner to gain a better understanding of what you're feeling and how you're feeling and how you're feeling seen and what you want from him. And if at the end of all of that, you guys don't get together and get stronger, then you have a very kind of clear path forward that it's not what you're looking for. You know, if you're distracted by other people during your marriage, I don't think that's an uncommon theme. I think it's a matter of, is that distraction like a yearning to be out of your marriage or is it simply a distraction? I mean, it's very clear, like as you were reading this letter that you were going to mention you

had a crush on somebody at some point, because that's what was, you know, we both of us were like, ah, yeah. But just look at, counseling is huge. It's a huge opportunity for growth within yourself, within your marriage, and for your partner. So look at everything as an advantage. The more knowledge you have, the better you are at making a decision. And if your marriage can survive this, then you're going to be stronger for it. And if you do decide to split, then that's okay too. Then you can go pursue all of these things you're talking about. Hopefully you can pursue them within your marriage by just having a better line of communication

and understanding of each other. I think I would add another piece to it as well, Chelsea, is that what I'm not hearing enough is a basic appreciation for the man, for the person, for what he represents. Not for what he does, not for the 50%, but for who he is, for the love he man, for the person, for what he represents, not for what he does, not for the 50%, but for who he is, for the love he brings, for the care, the attention, the reliability. All these things are actually very big things. If your relationship will disintegrate, if it becomes a relationship where two people are basically criticizing each other and pointing only at the shortcomings and the failures and the gaps rather than and take for granted what is and only highlight what's missing. And that piece is

something I hope you develop in and cultivate in the couples therapy. And in, you know, people want to know that they matter, that they mean something, that they're there and that their presence is appreciated and not that their presence is evaluated and measured. Yeah, that's for sure. Okay. Well, good luck with that situation. And thank you, Esther. So your course on conflict, how can people sign up for that? Go to the website, estherperel.com. It's the couples course. It's called Turning Conflict Into Connection. Where Should We Begin? You all know it's the podcast.

It's on Apple and on Vox and anywhere you listen to your podcasts with the subscription on Apple. And it is basically this. It's live couples therapy. It's what we've been doing together is the podcast. It's live relationship therapy with individuals and couples where you're a fly on the wall

listening in on the sessions of others. And where should we begin the game is also on my website and on Amazon. And that's how do you actually, it's the tool for communication to establish connection, curiosity, trust, playfulness in your relationships by having very beautiful questions that lead to storytelling,

not to answers, but to storytelling because relationships are stories. Wonderful. Your husband must be like, he must lose any sort of argument at any time that you guys have had. I mean, how can you be married to someone like you and never stand your ground? He must have to defer to you on everything. It's the ultimate position to be in. You think, you think. Four decades later, no, no, no. I have someone who, but I'll tell you, humor goes a long way, as you know. Yeah. Okay. So one way to deflate me completely is to make me laugh. That'll quieten me. Yeah. that works for me as well, for my future lovers. Anyway, thank you, Esther, for being on our podcast today.

It's a pleasure to be with you. It's a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thank you both. Okay. Take care. Chelsea, do you have some new dates for us? Oh, you know I do.

You know I do. I have a lot of, we added lots of Canadian cities, Canadians, I do. I have a lot of, we added lots of Canadian cities, Canadians, I'm coming. We added about 15 new tour dates. I'm coming to Denver again, Salt Lake City, Vancouver, Richmond, Virginia, Santa Rosa, California, Gary, Indiana, Baltimore, Verona, New York, and about seven dates in Canada. So go to ChelseaHandler.com. I am performing everywhere. I will be on tour all for the rest of the year through December. And then next year, I'm going to be touring all year. So come and get it, you guys. It's good

times and it's a very much needed reprieve from all the fucking madness that's going on in this world. So I'm here to bring joy and sunshine. Do you have a holiday-themed question for Chelsea? Please send us all the questions you need answered about crazy family get-togethers, arguing over which cranberry sauce recipe to use, and all your holiday drama. Just send your questions to dearchelseapodcast at gmail.com.

Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered by Brad Dickert, executive producer Catherine Law. And be sure to check out our merch at ChelseaHandler.com. I'm Jason Alexander. And I'm Peter Tilden. And together, our mission on the Really No Really podcast is to get the true answers to life's baffling questions like why the bathroom door doesn't go all the way to the floor, what's in the museum of failure, and does your dog truly love you?

We have the answer. Go to reallyknowreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead. The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Decisions Decisions, the podcast where boundaries are pushed and conversations get candid. Join your favorite hosts, me, Weezy WTF, and me, Mandy B, as we dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. That's right. Every Monday and Wednesday, we both invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms. With a blend of humor, vulnerability, and authenticity, we share our personal journeys navigating our 30s, tackling the complexities of modern relationships, and engage in thought-provoking

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