Dear Chelsea - Three Women with Lisa Taddeo

Episode Date: September 12, 2024

Author Lisa Taddeo joins Chelsea this week to talk about her new show (based on her book) Three Women, chasing down the next chapter of your life, and transforming your pain into your story.  Then: A mom wants her 16-year-old to figure out her future.  A creative worries that her boyfriend’s lack of lust is her fault.  And a surrogate mom meets Mr. Right at a time that’s absolutely wrong. * Check out Three Women on Starz, and buy the book here.   *  Click here to help with Lynette’s car repairs * Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at [e-mail] * Executive Producer Catherine Law Edited & Engineered by Brad Dickert * * * * * The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.  This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all.  Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Do you want a shortcut to the best version of you? Here it is. Feed the good wolf. I'm Eric Zimmer, host of The One You Feed. Every week, I talk to brilliant minds and brave souls about the art of small, powerful choices. Our listeners say it all. This is a lifeline.

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Hi, Katherine. Hi, Chelsea. How are you? Oh, I'm just off the road. My life is insane, and I think I slept 14 hours last night. Oh, my gosh. 14 hours to wake up and go get a butt exam at, I guess, a proctologist or a scatological expert. I don't know what he was, but it was a degrading experience. My cousin recently went to this doctor and he brought my cousin up right before my anal rectum exam.

I already had a colonoscopy this month. So I'm getting so much ass play. This is separate. And he basically told me to, he was very nice. And he must, he had to have been. He's got bedside manner. Yeah, he had a nice bedside asshole manner. And I, he, what was the most humiliating part was that he told me to bend over the table and pull my pants and underwear down. So not even off, just down like you were getting a vibe. It is worse. It's so much worse.

It's totally worse. I was like, can I just take them off? Right. No gown. There was just a shade, like a dressing, you know, something to shade me. He was in the room also when I took my pants down, looking away, which is horrifying also. And the nurse was there because, you know, they have to have a witness now.

And then I bent over the table with my pants around my ankles and my underwear around my ankles. Absolutely not. And then they lifted the table up. So the part that I was leaning on, oh no, they put it down. They put it down so that my asshole was protruding more,

I suppose. It was all a blur. I mean, actually, it wasn't a blur. I wish it were a blur. So that was how my morning started. By the way, I'm coming to Charleston, South Carolina this Friday night, and I'll be in Charlotte, North Carolina

on Saturday night. So I hope to see you there. Tickets are still available. And I am closing out this year with my last batch of shows for the Little Big Bitch Tour. I'll be in Charlotte, North Carolina on Saturday night. So I hope to see you there. Tickets are still available. And I am closing out this year with my last batch of shows for the Little Big Bitch Tour. So come see me. Awesome. And actually, Chelsea, I have a really exciting update.

Oh, good. What is it? This is about Lynette, who we did a GoFundMe for last week. What was that? Oh, for her sister? For her sister to get the car fixed. Oh, nice. And her GoFundMe is over $5,000. So thanks to all the Dear Chelsea listeners who donated.

Does she know? It's so fantastic. She does. It would be great if she didn't. She knows. She's aware. So yeah, all that money goes to Lynette and her sister. And if you still want to donate,

I will put a link in the description again this week. So check that out. Okay. Our guest today is an author. And now I guess she's a producer. Well, I don't guess. She is a producer because she has her own TV show coming out based on her book called Three Women, which premieres tomorrow on Starz. Please welcome author and creator Lisa Taddeo.

Hi, Lisa. Welcome. Welcome to Dear Chelsea. This is my producer, Catherine. Hi. Hi, Catherine. Lovely to meet you. Well, Lisa, this is nice because I vaguely recall, no offense to you, but I vaguely recall interviewing you when the book came out because I was a big fan of the book when it came out. I was so delighted to find out it was going to turn into a series. And I watched the entire series in my bed on Sunday, prepping for my colonoscopy. So cheers to that. Oh my gosh. I know. So we've been through it together so far and you didn't even know it. No.

First of all, I want to say great casting. Everybody in this is so good. Betty Gilpin is in it and- Shailene Woodley. Shailene Woodley is always adorable and a great actress. And then what's Sloane's name? What's her name? She's a fucking-

Dewanda Wise. She is insane. She's insanely talented and insanely stunning. Yeah, she's very, very easy to look at. And she has a lot. First of all, there's so much sex in the show, and it's female positive sex. So we're going to talk about all of this.

But the first thing I wanted to say to you, Lisa, is it was so nice to see a book be turned into a series with all of the fingerprints of the actual author on the show, rather than someone else taking it over. This is a hugely female-centric production, from the directors to the writing to all of the storytelling is for females. Obviously, men could watch it and learn a lot, but it feels very representative of the female experience. So that was very refreshing. And congrats to you on keeping your hand in the pot of all of this, because so many times we hear, you know, the opposite thing happening.

Thank you. Was that your relationship at Starz? Like, is that how you decided where to land? Because they were going to give you the, what's the word I'm thinking of? I want to say authoritarian. I like that. I like that you want to say authoritarian. I like that. I like that you want to say that. Because they're allowing you to be an authoritarian.

Well, yeah, I mean, I believe that the show is exactly where it should be right now, but we did start at Paramount Showtime. That was the initial sort of landing zone. Now, Starz has picked it up, and I'm very happy to be at Starz. I do think that it is literally the ideal place for the show. And so tell us, okay, I want you to talk about the show

a little bit more than me describing it, because I feel like you might do a better job. But I want to just talk about, so this original book, if you guys haven't read this book, I've talked about this book on the podcast before when I read it. So this is to just lay the groundwork. This is Lisa followed three different women throughout their kind of journeys in this story and kind of just tracked each woman and they each have different experiences and they all kind of tie in together. And then in the show, you're actually represented. There's a character that's you, who is played by Shailene Woodley. So how do you compare the book versus the show? Like, do you think it mirrors it? Did you think, did you take some extra license?

So I think it mirrors it. I think fans of the book will feel, specifically with the acting, you mentioned all the actors that we have. They're brilliant. I think that the actors have brought Betty Gilpin bringing Lena to life, the housewife in Indiana who just wanted to be kissed, is one of the most beautiful portrayals of female passion and having, I think that people who love the book and love the Lena character in specific will just be blown away that Betty Gilpin has

essentially just become her. So much so that I felt like she had met her and she obviously hadn't. But the main difference in the show is that the Shailene, Shailene Woodley is playing, like you said, a sort of version of me. And the reason for a version of me being in there is we were trying to satisfactorily link all of the women and not have it just be an anthology and have it be like a real you know a television show and we were going through the different ways that we could link them there were some wildly pitched

ideas like Sloan's husband could be the lawyer and Maggie's story and stuff like that all of it was very inorganic feeling when we were doing so much justice to honor the real three women's lives. The reason that they are all linked was me. And the reason that they all talked to me and that people talked to me in general was that I, I think, you know, I was going through a rough period of my life to some of them where and I was, I was, it's like, you know, it's easier to confess to a priest that has been, you know, kicked out than it is to one that hasn't. And that's kind of what I was, I feel I felt like I was kicked out of the world. And, and people sort of, you know, I just it was a it was we became close, and we became friends. And I have remained

close with all three of them, most especially Maggie, who I talk to almost every day. Oh, wow. So the sort of idea of me being the linking mechanism, the truth of it felt true to the book. And so that is the biggest difference in the show. Inside you, two wolves are locked in battle. One thrives on fear and anger and doubt. The other, courage, wisdom, and love.

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and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know, follow, and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun. Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, let's talk about these characters. Okay, so Lena specifically, we'll start with her because

her story is probably very typical, right? I'm sure of a woman that's married that hasn't been touched by her husband for a really long time that is aching for some sexual interaction or appreciation or any vibe at all. Like her marriage is dead and the relationship is dead and he completely takes her for granted and just thinks she's going to stick around. And he doesn't know what the problem is, which I think is illustrative of many relationships far and wide. And how do you get that spark going? And in fact, she didn't get that spark relit with him. She had to go find it elsewhere.

And then that becomes its own story. I mean, Alina's character arc in this whole thing is just, it's like a roller coaster. So she falls kind of head over heels for her high school love interest, but he's married too. And I don't want to give away anything, but she really gets into him and then she gets the courage to make a change in her life,

but it doesn't end the way you think it will end. And she's going through all of these emotions, losing herself, finding herself, losing herself and finding herself. And I loved seeing where she began and where she ended. Because I remember when I thought I was going to be some sort of actress, when you go to acting class, they talked about that. And I was like, God, it's so interesting because so many times you see movies and you see shows and there is no arc that's definable or that you can put your finger on. You're like, well, this person's just stayed the same throughout the whole series. But in this show,

every character is different from where they started. So I thought that was so beautifully done in terms of acting, direction, all of the writing for it. So which story do you feel out of the three women, Maggie Sloan? Sloan's story is going to be very inspiring for a lot of people who want to throuple up because throuples are very in vogue now. Threesomes are making a comeback in a major way, probably from the 70s. And I know a lot of women want to open their marriages because I have a lot of friends that have spoken about this. And this is a great depiction of the trials and tribulations of doing that. Yeah.

So which one of the stories are you closest to as a writer? Gosh, that's a hard question. As a woman, I would say that Lena's story was probably the one that I felt the most personally connected to that roller coaster of how you feel in the sort of, you know, in the gleam of the person who you love's eyes. So that felt to me like, like Lena and I had grown up loving the same fairy tales, like The Princess Bride, etc. We got our, our idea of what love came from. We're the same age, so it kind of came from the same place. So Lena and I have a very similar DNA in that way. So I think Lena's story is probably going to be one of the most relatable, just because,

as you said, it's such a widespread issue. I think almost anyone can relate to that. Maggie being a young woman in high school who has attention from an older man is, I think, something that many of us can relate to as well. I certainly related to that too. And there's something about, and now as I have a daughter, I have a nine-year-old and I'm seeing like, you know, I'm kind of seeing men because she's smart and interesting, older men will sort of talk to her in a different, I'm kind of seeing men because she's smart and interesting. Older men will sort of talk to her in a different way. I'm starting to see that and the way that she likes it because it's attention and just being able to see that what had happened to Maggie happening, you know, just seeing a version of that, the path of that in my own home is so striking and i think people seeing it on screen gabby creevey

plays maggie she's a phenomenal actress and she embodies the desire i mean it's like imagine desiring someone because you it's your teacher it's an older man like and yet the feelings of wrongness that come with that i think we're so in tune to that and s Sloane's story, as you said, throuples are getting big again. But what's so big to me about Sloane is that she just is unapologetically herself, and certainly the Sloane in the book. And the other Sloane that I had spoken to, who was an African American woman, but did not want to be in the book, in the end was where the two Sloans that we kind of look to while also retelling her story with Tori Sampson and Chisa Hutchinson, who were the architects of the new Sloan. But what I think about the new Sloan is that she wants what she wants. She wants

things that might seem to some women like, whoa, you have this, this, and this. You don't need that too. And that's the part that I like so much. It's like, well, you don't know what she needs. She has this, this, and this. You don't have that. Okay, but maybe you have the thing she does want. And who are you to decide what she should have left after having a wealthy lifestyle, a nice home, a gorgeous husband and Blair Underwood. Well, but the idea that the notion that you should be satisfied with a certain number of things and not ask or have no cupidity for more like, oh, okay, my cup is full and that's it. It's like, no, no, no, no. Wait, who decides that our cup is full? We're the ones who decide that. Exactly. Exactly. And that's such a female thing to do. Like when we're talking

about like these kind of gender roles that we've grown up with, the idea of this male gaze, this idea of male appreciation, the idea that you can be seduced from such a young age, starting years younger than 10 by male attention because of power dynamics, because of men you look up to, whether it's a mentor. I mean, I was in an inappropriate relationship at a very young age also. And I thought I was completely in control of the situation. And it's like, well, you're not taking into account all of the dynamics that exist within an age difference like that, that an older person has power over you. And the realizations that you have when you do get a little bit older, because when you're like

15, 16, 17, and an older guy is paying attention to you, you're like, I got this. Yeah, it's confirmation that everything is what, yeah. And now that we're also, we're all questioning these things and understanding that that is not good and that we don't want men looking at, you know, younger girls in that way. And it's like, you can't stop that from happening. So now we have to reconstruct how we act as women and how we raise our women. Exactly. Which is so messed up. Yeah, we're always doing all the cleanup work. Always. Exactly. I also like in Maggie's story, you know, she has an inappropriate relationship with her teacher, but she doesn't come to grips with the inappropriateness of it until much later. And so while it's happening, of course, she's in the throes of this, like she thinks this is a romantic love story.

And I like how many times she says on camera, I love you, I love you, I love you, I love you, because she needs to hear it back so, so much. Right? That's like another thing when we're missing something we want, we want it. We say, I love you so prematurely without thinking it because we love the idea of being in love. We don't think about what comes, what kind of baggage comes with saying, I love you and what kind of responsibility you're taking on by saying, I love you. So what about as a mother, how are you changing the way that you're talking to your daughter about these kinds of things, even though she's nine? Like, how are you preparing her knowing what you know now about women and writing these, like, you know, this

book and this show? Like, how do we change the narrative? I've been sending her to a ninja school, like after school. I mean, I don't how we change the narrative. I think it's got to be a collective effort, unfortunately. And I say unfortunately, because I feel like there's a lot of people who are still stuck in previous ways of being. And for this next generation and every forthcoming generation, I think the idea that, you know, we need to evolve with this piece, we need to evolve in a lot of ways. But with this specifically, it's a very tricky zone. And like you were saying about Maggie, like she didn't know, while she was in the throes of it, she wasn't feeling, you know, and then later she felt something. But actually, there was a moment, a couple of moments when she's like, you know, doing her high school thing.

And like her friends are like, yo, are you going to this party this weekend, et cetera? And she's like, wait, I don't know if I'm going to be allowed to do that because I'm kind of dating this guy. You know, like those kinds of things started seeping in. But she was like, well, but he's married and he's my teacher. So he shouldn't have a problem with me going to the prom. And she was already kind of feeling yucked out. And then he did something to pull her back in. So it's not even the the part that that is frightening to me is that like, there is an inner mechanism, I think, at some point where someone's like, wait, you know what, I don't want to do this. But people who do have that knowledge of how to groom victims, essentially, understand exactly when to get in there and flip the switch again. And that's

absolutely terrifying to me. And I don't know how to fix it. I think the way that I personally am doing it is being hypervigilant in situations of that sort. When my daughter's in an early age so that I can sort of, you know, walk her through what's going on so that there isn't a period of time where she's just not talking to me about it. Because that's what happened with Maggie too. You start to feel shame and then you just clam up. And that's when the people who are making you feel the most shame are able to, you know, move in and essentially establish residence in your soul. Yeah, because even every woman isn't on the same page yet, right? Like we're having the conversation. So like if you're a thinker and you're actually worried about this you want to change the pattern of behavior of women moving forward but all women

don't feel the same way some women like that they would they think men should be in charge of society and women should be demure and you know a housewife is a great thing to aspire to be and that's all you should ask for and this whole women's lib movement is too much so it's like for me as a woman I feel so passionately about impacting any young kid, girl specifically that I can with the knowledge and the power of what it means to be a fully actualized woman and not being so deferential

and attention seeking from men, that that's not where it's at. And that is a disease. Like we're not gonna be able to turn that around in our lifetime because that's how we were raised, thinking that that's such a good thing. I think I was going to ask you about putting your own story in this series. How did you feel about doing that? I mean, I felt apprehensive about it, but I also, what I also felt was, you know, I have put these three women's stories

into a book and now adapted it for a show uh the idea that i would be too sort of precious with mine was not something that felt right but more so i i kind of i'm more of like oh i don't want anything about me to sort of take away from anything about them or other people because I didn't I just didn't want to take up space in that way. But when I realized that it was good, it was the sort of the true ecosystem of the story of the book and then and then the story of the women and all of us, it just sort of made sense. But yes, I was apprehensive. And there was a moment where all of my worst fears were sort of realized when my husband and I were watching a scene that on playback

on one of the monitors that Shailene Woodley had just done an intimate scene with an actor that was sort of recreating a scene that my husband and i had actually had where a condom was lost inside of me on our first date and you know he's trying to fish it out etc so we're watching the scene on playback and she comes up behind me and she goes you little creeps and i was just like oh my god so humiliating i'm like but i'm working but yeah i was apprehensive there i was nervous about stuff like that but shayleen is so is such a consummate professional she also it's not

while it is me and most of the things that are in the show that happened to the gia character did happen to me shayleen also we discussed it and she created her own version, person, her own character, because it's not like I'm some, you know, historical figure. You know, it's like the queen where you know exactly how she does this. Like nobody gives a shit about how I drink tea. So there is a lot of condom use. I've never seen a show talk about condoms more or people use condoms more because I honestly haven't used a condom in a really long time.

I'm going to be honest. And I was like, oh, great reminder. Great reminder that we're supposed to be using protection. I'm having a lot of random sex. But there's so much like realistic sex in this, like the condom use. There's period sex. There's like funny laughter during sex, which you it happens in real life, but never on TV. Yeah. And I also love that there's so much eye contact from the women moving into the sex scenes. You know how sometimes, because it really made me reflect on my own like sexual kind of arc of my life. I remember being so much more inhibited and insecure and self-conscious as a 20 and 30 year old where I wouldn't make eye contact when I was getting becoming intimate with someone there's this kind of like avoidance where you're like

kind of giggly and looking away and you can't take the straight action without the talking when you know you're in an intimate moment and there's so much female validation also in this series which was so beautiful kind of circling back to what I was saying earlier about imprinting on anyone you can that's a younger girl or even a woman our own age, because we don't all have the same amount of confidence. We don't all have the same amount of agency and self-esteem. And I loved that scene specifically where Shailene Woodley is telling Betty Gilpin how beautiful she is in love. Like you're a beautiful woman. Look how beautiful being in love and being happy makes you. And it was so gorgeous because we all need to be saying that to each other more frequently, regardless of whether you're in love

or not. You know, when someone is beaming, you got to say, look at you, you're feeling yourself. This is a beautiful look on you. Look how proud you should be of yourself. Like we don't cup, you're done, your cup is full. I think that when we see someone else getting either more than what we have or something we wanted, it's really hard for us, I think, as a gender to be happy for another woman because of the way we've been pitted against each other in our patriarchal society. So I think it's like imprinted in us to not do that. And so I think exactly what you said is right. We need to be like, I'm happy you're happy. I'm happy you're smiling. And or I'm not happy right now. You're smiling. I want to smile. How can I smile too? I think that's like the honesty and the sort of like coming at things or even like, I'm a little upset that you got the man of your dreams or the woman of your

dreams and I am still looking, but I hope to find that too. And I'm so happy for you. Like, I think that being able to hold the ands in our support of one another is really one of the most important things. That and eliminating the negative talk that women say about each other. There's also a very pertinent scene where she one woman is calling another character a slut and she's like, don't do that. That's going to come right back around at you. You know what I mean? We shouldn't be using that language about each other. Men use that language. We shouldn't be calling each other sluts or any of the other derogatory terms that we do. I mean, I do like the word cunt. I'm going to say that,

but I like that more as a descriptor for a man than a woman. But I like saying the word cunt. One of my very closest friends hates the word cunt. She hates it. She's like, it's such a vile word. I'm like, I understand you, but I think we should bring it back around. It's very in vogue right now. It is in vogue. And I like calling a man a cunt. Like he's a real cunt, you know? So anyway, okay. On that note, Lisa, sorry, this conversation's all over the place, but I'm all over the place. I love it. Okay, great. So we're going to take a break and we'll be right back with Lisa Taddeo from Three Women. Inside you, two wolves are locked in battle. One thrives on fear and anger and doubt.

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And we're back with Lisa. What's happening, Catherine? We have so many things to talk about today. Are you ready to give some advice? Absolutely. This is a juicy one. Oh, okay. This is a real, real juicy one. I always like to start with juicy.

This email comes from Miley. She says, Cyrus. Dear Chelsea. Spelled differently, but yes. Obviously, she's trying to shroud herself. Dear Chelsea, help. I am a single mama to a five-year-old daughter and became a surrogate three years ago i gave birth to my friend's son last june and we've always planned to do a sibling journey we waited a year

and this summer began the process for the next journey i've gone through medical and legal clearance and i'm now playing a waiting game until we- Sibling journey. Yes. So basically, she had the child for her friend and they planned to have a sibling for that child with her as the surrogate again. Oh, okay. I really wish everyone stopped using the word journey. It's very confusing. What the fuck? I thought she was doing ayahuasca. I'm like, wait, what? What's happening? Okay. Sibling journey.

Okay, got it. Yes. So she's waiting to find out the transfer schedule. So it's happening. So that she's going to have another baby for these people. Right. Okay. Here's the thing.

Last month, my college sweetheart reached out to me to see if I'd be interested in catching up. We spent the first night laughing and reminiscing for hours on a rooftop lounge, followed by legit fireworks. He reached out almost immediately after I left, and we planned our next meetup. We're now three wonderful dates in, one of which was me joining him on a sailboat for his best friend's birthday. To say this was all unexpected is a massive understatement. I will always lead with honesty and know I need to tell him I could very well be getting pregnant within the next few weeks. But how? The timing feels like a mean trick from the universe.

Any advice? Miley. Huh. Wow. Yeah. I have like a question. I know. It's so annoying when you have questions because they're not fucking here.

I know. I'm just like it's an open question. Was she getting paid for the surrogacy? Because it sounds like the new guy and the sailboat, maybe it was his friends, but maybe she doesn't need. I'm just kidding. I'm like, really? Is this where you're going after what we just fucking talked about?

Get a man to provide for her? Is that what we're talking about? She's like, you don't need the money from the surrogacy. You have a new boyfriend. He's got a friend with a sailboat. Drop everything. Problem solved. need the money from the surrogacy you have a new boyfriend he's got a sailboat no i was kidding but my but i guess it's like she's doing this for her friend i mean gosh i feel like i personally would say that wait she already has the date for the transfer i'm sorry this is like blowing my mind i know i know so they don't have the the date for the transfer. The date is not yet. I'm sorry. This is like blowing my mind. I know.

I know. So they don't have the date yet for the transfer, but they are cleared for transfer. Oh, OK. If they don't have the date, I would say give it another two dates with the dude. Right. I mean, like we can wait and see. We can wait a month. I just know you don't like.

Well, no, I this is what I'm thinking out loud is if you made a commitment to do something, because there's a thread of professionalism in this, right? She's not, she's not just doing it for free. I'm presuming. Right.

If she's getting paid to do this, and this is a commitment that she has made, I feel like it's like any other work commitment. You don't stop your commitment because you started dating somebody so if you take out all the ingredients of the situation and just look at it yes right like okay you were scheduled to go work for these nine months but you just met a guy that you really like are you gonna quit your job for the next nine months I don't know if it's if she's not getting paid and it is just a service she's providing, then that's a little bit different. But she still made a commitment to help these people.

So it shouldn't even be impacted by the boyfriend, the new boyfriend. And he's not a boyfriend yet because it's only been three dates with a friend's sailboat. College flame. Right. I kind of feel like since she has a child of her own, which is sort of like in the very beginning of the email, a pregnancy might not be that far out of the realm of his expectations. Who knows? Yes. I think go for it. Let him figure his shit out. And if he's like, who knows?

Maybe he's got a pregnancy fetish. Maybe he's into it. Or maybe he's at least neutral. I don't want him to have a pregnancy fetish. What is that even? That doesn't sound good. I mean, then what happens after the baby's born? Yeah, pregnancy fetish. Like, let's not get carried away.

I think this is a good subject matter for your next book. I totally, I totally agree. Too bad it's about grief. But yeah, I hear both of those. I think the work commitment and, you know, whether she's getting paid or not, the professionalism of having made a commitment. But the only thing I'll say, which is why I do like the idea of waiting a couple more dates is what if this is the guy of her dreams and, you know, it sort of, what if it is the person for her and she says, I'm planning to be a surrogate, how do you feel about that? I think that should happen regardless, because then you find out, you know, what kind of a person he is and he might be like, oh, I don't care. And if he does care at such an early stage, then I would be like, oh, maybe he wasn't right. So it might end up being an easier answer if we ask more questions. I know it's I'm just trying to think from I never try to think like a man because I don't really care but I I'm just trying to think

yeah I don't really care what they're thinking but I I like to I'm just trying to imagine what it would be like to be dating someone and then them to be like fully nine months pregnant you're in love with them and they're having someone else's baby. What does that feel like? And I just realized I don't care again. You know what I mean? Like, I don't care enough because it's like, it's really not, it has nothing to do with you. It's just a body changing. Exactly. So I would say, yeah, you can wait a couple more dates just so everything's out in the open and you can clear the air and make sure he's provided with all the information. And again, like if this guy is it, and you guys have this great connection, yes, I understand a nine month pregnancy is a big deal. But it's it's nine months. It's not the rest of your life. And it is, again, a commitment that

you made. I really like that. And I think maybe now you tell him, I did the surrogacy thing a few years ago for my friend. And that was a really cool thing for me. And then maybe in a couple dates when we wait a couple days to tell him, remember when i tell you about that surrogacy thing we're doing it again we're doing a sibling journey so maybe it's like peppering it in but definitely don't use the term sibling journey just say we're fucking having a sibling okay i mean that's it and on a personal note i would do anything to avoid a pregnancy i would do anything i would be like this is the perfect out like if I weren't looking at this situation, trying to be objective, which is what I am, I would be like, get the fuck

out of that fucking surrogacy thing, commitment you made and go be with your boyfriend. Okay. But we're not talking about me. We're talking about someone who's nice, generous, has already done this for another person, which is pretty much the biggest gift you can give somebody. It really. So I, there's lots of different feelings about this, but I think she should focus on the fact that she has stood up and said she's going to do something. So you should follow through with that.

Yeah. And we'll leave it at that before Lisa says anything else. All right, Miley, keep us posted. Our next caller is Sarah. And her question dovetails with so many of the themes in the show and in the book. So she says, Dear Chelsea, I've been in a relationship with my boyfriend, Chris, for the past 10 years. I'm 25 and he's 26. We've faced significant struggles, particularly in the last four years, and it feels like we're stuck in a painful limbo. Four years ago Chris told me he hasn't been attracted to me since our sophomore year of college. This aggravated a deep wound that I've had all my life manifesting through eating disorders body dysmorphia and low self-esteem due to PCOS. Despite my efforts and for people who don't know PCOS can cause you to have some body changes, some weight gain, that sort of thing.

What does PCOS stand for? Polycystic ovarian syndrome. Last one to the party, as usual. Despite my efforts to improve my self-image and our relationship through therapy and self-care, our intimacy has been non-existent for three years. A peck goodnight and that's it. I've tried to address this gently and consistently, but I'm beginning to fear that staying in this situation means disrespecting myself. Chris is incredibly caring and kind, making this even harder to stomach. I'm finding it difficult

to balance my journey of self-acceptance and healing with the need for a reciprocal and supportive relationship. Our attempt at couples therapy didn't result in much, and I often feel like I'm the only one actively working on our issues. I've tried my best to be patient and let him work through this at his pace, and I know he feels terrible, but nothing ever changes. This situation, combined with the grief of losing my mom to early-onset dementia this past May, after caretaking for her for two years, has left me feeling deeply stuck and isolated. Am I holding on to false hope, or is there a way to address these issues constructively? Chris has been my best friend for most of my life and I can't imagine life without him.

I'm not conventionally attractive and I come with a lot of baggage for a 25-year-old. So if this man who has known me for so long doesn't show me the love I need, how will I ever get anyone to love me the way I need to be loved? Sarah. Hi, Sarah.

Hi. Hi, cutie. This is Lisa Tadeo, our special. Sarah. Hi, Sarah. Hi. Hi, cutie. This is Lisa Tadeo, our special guest today. Hi, Lisa. It's an honor to meet you. Lovely to meet you. Honey. Thank you.

Honey, first of all, please don't ever say you're not conventionally attractive. You're gorgeous. You're beautiful. I was just going to say the exact same thing. You're beautiful. Your eyes are beautiful. I can see that you have a beautiful soul.

Please don't even talk about yourself in that way. Thank you. This is not going to be an easy phone call for you, okay? You're in a stale relationship that has expired. And I understand that there's an attachment issue that you're attached to him in a different way, but you are not going to build your self-esteem and your self-worth by being with someone who said he wasn't attracted to you. First of all, this is all an inside job that you have to work on yourself. You have to figure out away from any man that you're valuable, that you're special, that you have something to offer, and that you're beautiful as a person. Beautiful. I just don't mean the exterior, but you're beautiful on the exterior too. But that's the last point. Like who gives a shit about that right now?

This is a deeper issue. You can't be with someone who said they're not attracted to you. You can't have that seeping into your system. It's like a negative thought pattern that you are experiencing. Do you have a therapist that you go to on your own? I do. Yes. Okay.

And how is that going? I've been going to therapy since I was 16 for my own mental health issues. So it's a regular thing in my life, but she's not the type of therapist who will say her outright opinion about something. She'll just kind of guide me along. So I don't really know what she thinks about this relationship. Okay. Well, let's get down to business. You need to get into your self-worth and your self-esteem. Those are your major points of interest for the next six months to a year is building yourself up. And the way that that's going to happen is by initiating some independence for yourself. First and foremost, I don't think you should stay in this relationship

any longer than you have to. I really think that you are going to give yourself a huge gift by getting away from the relationship. That doesn't mean you don't love him. That doesn't mean he doesn't love you. It just means that that's not your future. And it's holding you back because these thoughts that you have about yourself, you have to retrain your entire brain and the way that you think about yourself. And that might mean getting a new therapist who's going to help you achieve that. You know what I mean? Sometimes when we're therapists for too long, it can get a little bit stale. And I'm a big advocate of jumping around and moving around to different therapists at different times in your life. You have different needs throughout your life. Right. Okay. That makes sense. I guess I get hung up on, I have empathy for where he's coming from

and that he didn't necessarily mean physical attraction. I read in between the lines. Is he less interested in being intimate and that's what caused you to ask or is it? Yeah. Yeah. So there were some intimacy issues that had just gone unspoken and I brought them up and that's kind of where the conversation led. And that was about three, four years ago. But you said you read between the lines. What did he really say? Well, my therapist was wonderful to remind me that this probably doesn't have much to do with my physical appearance. That has nothing to do with that. There's a lot about his own self-confidence and self-image and how he feels in this relationship. So I've been trying to focus on that.

Okay. Also, I want you to think about this when I'm going to say something. This moment in time is not the rest of your life. This is a moment in time and you have the choice and opportunity as such a young person to look at like the big picture of what your life can be. And it's up to you to make like to create the engine to move forward. It's up to you to go, okay, my life can be bigger than this. I can love myself in a big different way. I could find someone where the chemistry, it's just about chemistry. You know what I mean? You have to have the right chemistry with people. And sometimes chemistry dies and sometimes it fades and sometimes it's alive forever. But regardless, you have to have the

spark between two people that can create the that when you're attracted to someone, you can almost work through anything together if you both have the same desire for each other. You know, and if a relationship has fizzled out, that's okay. The only mistake is staying in it for longer than you need to once it has fizzled out. That doesn't mean it's a failure. That means that period of time is over. It's completed. Now you can move on to the next phase of your life. And I know one of the biggest fears for you too is losing him, but it's okay if this transitions into a friendship. And in many ways, it seems like it maybe already has. Yeah, I was going to say that. Yeah, it does feel like a friendship. And I asked him specifically in preparation for this,

why he still wants to be in a relationship with me. And he says there's something deeper there than friendship to him. Just the joy I bring to his life is what he said is deeper than friendship. But that's friendship. That is friendship. Right. So it is. It's hard to imagine redefining that after being in a relationship like this for 10 years now.

But I think you're right. There's definitely some at least redefining that needs to happen. I can tell you for what it's worth from my own personal experience that I, my boyfriend throughout high school and into college and beyond, I was with him for many years, very similar situation happened. We broke up. It went on for longer than it should have, many years longer. And now we are still friends to this day. And it's great. Like it's a really great friendship. But I do rue, I do miss the days, the years that I stayed. I'm just telling you that and what it's worth. Because I was terrified of losing the connection with the person who I had been with for so long. And that's the most normal

feeling in the world. It's going to be very hard, but you are ultimately going to get what you need and probably still have this person in your life. There's a difference between attachment and attraction. You have an attachment to him, and that's fine, and that's a friendship. That's not a love interest. You need to develop your love affair with yourself. You have your whole life ahead of you. You're incredible. I can see the kindness in your eyes. I know this is upsetting to hear, but I want to hear from you how you feel about actually ending the relationship. Like, do you think you have the ability? I know you have the ability. Do you think that that you're capable of doing that

in the near future? I do. If that's what's best for both of us, I have the strength to do it. It's hard to imagine losing his family. They've been, you're not going to lose his family. They're not, no one's going to say we're never going to talk to you again. That's just not, you've been together for 10 years. Right. And I guess with all the change that comes with losing your mom, it is hard to imagine the changes. How long ago did you lose your mom? In May. I'm so sorry. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. He and his family have been really great about helping me through that. So that's another thing that I just have been benefiting a lot from their support. But I think you're right. Something needs to happen. It can't keep staying like this.

But also your mom passing away. You have to think about what your mom would want for you. Yeah. Would your mom want you to be in like a stale relationship just because you're getting support from them because of her passing? What your mom really wants for you is for you to have agency and for you to go after your dreams and to find yourself in a real concrete way. That's what any mother would want for their daughter. So even in moving forward through these difficult moments, because there will be many difficult moments, you have to bring your mother's energy into your body and do it for the both of you. That makes sense. Do you have any thoughts on what to do? I feel like he's coming from such a kind place that he really wants to improve this. That's what's so heartbreaking because I feel like I need to give him space to try to.

Are you attracted to him? I would be if I felt safe. I don't know that I feel safe to let my guard down that much yet anymore. After getting rejected so many times. Yeah. Yeah. That's understandable. Yeah. And it's not like he's the bad guy. You know what I mean? No one's the bad guy here. This is just like a relationship that has run its course. And I think you're doing you and him a favor by actually taking the step instead of just sitting there and waiting for another five years to pass. I think the conversation starts with like, obviously, I want you in my life forever. Obviously, our friendship is so deep. I want to continue this forever. Your family has been a rock for me. I don't want to lose that.

I don't want to lose our friendship. But I think we have to really be honest about what this is. This isn't a love relationship anymore. And I have needs that I would love to go explore. I have to go find myself in a real way without having like a codependency with each other. And you also want that for him. You want him to be able to find his happiness and his truth. It's not just about you. It's about both of you.

You're actually stepping up to the plate where there's two people who are like being passive. You know what I mean? And you're saying, no, we need to face this situation. It's going to be difficult. But if we do this with love and out of respect for the 10 years that we've spent together, we can separate in a way that we won't ever have to really say goodbye to each other. We can have all the good things remain, but we're not in a relationship anymore, like under the subterfuge of a romantic relationship. I think that makes a lot

of sense to me. I worry that the pain of we couldn't be enough for each other might be a little too much to keep that relationship going that friendship you think that will impair the friend you think that won't just that I wasn't enough for him and he wasn't enough for me that but honey that's not what it is okay it's not that you're not enough it's not that he's not enough it's that you're no longer a match you're enough he's enough you're not for each other you're longer a match. You're enough. He's enough. You're not for each other. You're not a match. It's like things that go together and blend well, there's alchemy. And then there's the opposite of that. And then there's no strings attaching you anymore. You know what I mean? In that way. And it's not about you being deficient. And I understand that

these are words. It's not like, oh, you're going to leave this phone call and be a completely different person. But I want you to re-listen and re-listen to this conversation. Because there are people that you don't have chemistry with. And then there are people that you do. And there are different kinds of chemistry. There's friendship chemistry. And then there's sexual chemistry. And hopefully, in your next relationship, you're going to find both of those things.

And they're going to last. And it's just the alchemy is not there for the sex. Yeah. And I know you're scared about not giving him enough time or robbing him of the joy that he gets from the relationship. But it's been 10 years, so there's enough time. Right. And it's been three years of this sort of like no sexual tension. But I think one thing that you need to realize is by staying, you're not only denying yourself the time to go and find the next right thing or being by yourself. You're also robbing him of that opportunity as well. As much as he probably wants to stay in the relationship because it's safe and it's comfortable and you're obviously wonderful.

And why wouldn't he want to be close to you? You're denying both of you that opportunity to go find what's right for you. That makes sense. So what's the plan? What if you started by writing a letter? Because I think a lot of this is your fear about how he's going to react. So I think if you write a letter to him, that you can just sort of feel and say everything you want in it and then and then just

have it and sit with it for a couple of days and then maybe imagine how he will react to some of the things in there and just sort of because I think right now the idea is just so big and giant that you just need to take it step by step and I think writing a letter that no one has to ever see if you don't want them to is a good first step to just getting everything down and getting yourself comfortable with even the potential of doing this. That's a great idea. I love that idea. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a great idea. You're obviously a beautiful writer. Like your letter you wrote to us was very beautiful. So at least I wonder, as another creator, Sarah is also a creator, Chelsea too, is there some advice that you could give her on turning her story and these elements, these painful elements that she's going through? What can that become in the future? Gosh, it can become anything. I mean, there's a line, you know, someday this pain will be useful to you, that I feel like if I didn't just have that on the frontal lobe of my brain every day, that I would

not be able to make it. Because life is so hard sometimes, I think that the idea for me as someone who writes and creates other things, the idea of being able to take the pain and metabolize it and change it into something that can help other people, especially, you know, in your line of work, I think that the ability to be able to tell a story, if it's your own or someone else's or an adjacency like that, the idea of everything you're feeling, kind of taking it down as a note and observing it the way, you know, we're meant to look at moments and live in the present, which I have not figured out how to do, but maybe one day. But in the meantime, just looking at the moment and just noting it down, noting the pain and knowing that one day you're going to be able to turn that pain

into something that somebody else can make somebody else feel seen. I love that. That gives us all the purpose. I think you have all the purpose in the world. I really do. Thank you. I do too. I do too. I believe in you. You're going to be great. This is important. I'm so glad you called in. And I want you to reframe this idea of loss. You're not, you're also going to gain so much by taking, you know, this step and moving in the right direction of your life. Like you were going to gain.

So like it's, you're thinking about all the things you're going to lose. You don't have to lose all those things. So I don't want you to look at it like that. Just you're redefining the relationship for what it actually is instead of pretending it's something it like that. Just you're redefining the relationship for what it actually is instead of pretending it's something it's not. That is really helpful to see outside of my own head to get that

perspective. Thank you. Yeah. So write that down. Okay. Okay. I will. And then write down everything else because you're going to use it and create and move it into art at some point in your life. And you're going to help a lot of people so thank you i have faith in you please keep us posted okay we'll do let us know what's going on and if you need to talk again we'll be here okay thank you both so much okay bye cutie thank you bye oh god i know that one's a heartbreaker you need to give her my phone number i will she needs to text me on a daily basis i'll send her positive affirmations about herself. That's the thing. If we just had more people doing what you just, if that were just going on everywhere, we'd be good. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Well, let's take a quick break and we'll wrap up with Lisa. Okay. Well, we're going to take a break and Lisa and I are going to take a virtual bath. 2025 is bound to be a fascinating year. It's going to be filled with money challenges and opportunities. I'm Joel. Oh, and I am Matt. And we're the hosts of How To Money. We want to be with you every step of the way in your financial journey this year, offering the information and insights you need to thrive financially. Yeah, whether you find yourself up to your eyeballs in student loan debt, or you've got a sky-high credit card balance because you went a little overboard

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And on our new podcast, Moms Who Puck, we're opening up about the chaos of our daily lives between the juggle of being athletes, raising children, and all the messiness in between. We're also turning to fellow athletes and beyond to learn about their parenthood journeys and collect valuable advice, like FIFA World Cup winner Ashlyn Harris. I wish my village would have prepared me for how hard motherhood was going to be. And Peloton instructor and Ratchet Mom Club founder, Kirsten Ferguson. And I remember going in there a hot mess. So listen to Moms Who Puck, a production of iHeart Women's Sports and Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Presented by Elf Beauty, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs deeper into their stories, their journeys, and the thoughts that arise once we've hit the pavement together. You know that rush of endorphins you feel after a great workout? Well, that's when the real magic happens. So if you love hearing real, inspiring stories from the people you know, follow, and admire, join me every week for Post Run High. It's where we take the conversation beyond the run and get into the heart of it all. It's lighthearted, pretty crazy, and very fun.

Listen to Post Run High on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. Well, Tamara says, Hi,elsea my daughter's turning 16 this summer and finishing her sophomore year in high school i've been talking to her about her plans for college and trying to nudge her to get prepared for applying and choosing a major but she's been brushing it off i've sent her many resources on the college selection and application timelines but i doubt she's looked at any of them i even got her signed up for info packets from various New England colleges and sent them to her, but again, I doubt she even looked at them. When I asked her what kind of job she wants, she gives me vague answers like something in biology. I told her the best way to narrow down

a career path is to look at current job listings, examine the skills and requirements for the available positions, but mainly look at the salary offered. I even sent her TikToks of young adults talking about selecting a profession where they expose the fact that if you ask any kid what profession they want, they list the same 10 professions, teacher, doctor, nurse, policeman, firefighter, etc., when there are in fact over 10,000 professions out there that kids just don't know about. How do I motivate my teenager to start seriously thinking about selecting a career path and applying to colleges before it's too late, out there that kids just don't know about. How do I motivate my teenager to start seriously thinking about selecting a career path and applying to colleges before it's too late? Tamara. I mean, first of all, she needs to understand you have to stop paying for things for her so

that she has to understand that eventually she has to get an income. That's the first step to let them know that they actually have to have some accountability. I mean, I don't know, Lisa, what do you think? I don't know how you motivate a 16-year-old because it's like if you're nagging, nagging, nagging about the same thing, it has the opposite effect. Yeah. Well, they might go out and get a job really fast if you're nagging a lot, you know, just to get out of the house. That would be a good. It doesn't sound like that's the situation. No, no.

I think she's the mom sounds like she's doing a lot of the right things. But I think that the first thing you said is essentially if the daughter needed something, she would try to find a path to get what she needed. It doesn't sound like she needs or wants anything. So I think the goal is to create the need or the want. And if creating that is, you know, taking away some of the assistance and support for the non-food and water type things that children need, I think if taking away some of that extra support for extracurricular things might make her daughter go, oh, whoa, hold on a second, the buck is gonna stop at some point. But I think, you know, in terms of path, I believe that

she will find her path because it sounds like her mother is going to stick with her and stick on it. But I also think that, you know, it might just, it, it, it, maybe she doesn't go to college right away. You know, maybe that is her path. And maybe she sees all of her friends in college being happy and excited about X, Y, or Z. And then she's like, I want to go or maybe she finds a completely different path for herself and doesn't. But I do think that what you said is, is number one, sort of, you know,

increasing the motivation to, to be. Yeah. She needs to show some initiative. Like she needs, has to know that when she's done with high school, if she doesn't go to college, what's the game plan.

She's going to stay at the house. You have to define what's going to happen. She's going to stay at the house and she's going to have to go get a job. Did you want to go get a job or would she rather go to college? I'm sure she'd rather go to college than get a job. In the interim, she's going to have to fucking get a part-time job anyway, since you have to start understanding what responsibility looks like. I mean, you know, you can do plenty of shit at 16.

You can babysit. You can, you know, find different ways. And in many states you can work at 16 with your parents' permission. So I would say try a different tactic also. Like what you're doing by sending her stuff is probably just nagging, nagging, nagging. You need to get real with what her reality is going to look like after school

when all her friends are going off to college and she has no plan. As far as the majors go, I kind of feel like let her go with whatever major. Don't worry about that. Everybody changes their major. I mean, every teenager I know who just went to college, like none of them are going to be what their major is.

Exactly. In my opinion. One step at a time. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. So totally. Okay. Well, anyway, pressure off a little bit, Tamara, but also set some boundaries. Yeah, exactly. So sick of parenting advice, honestly. Lisa, I love you. You're so fun and normal. It's so nice to meet writers that are normal. There aren't many. I know. I know. I keep saying that every time we have a writer on, I'm always like, thank you for being normal. And it's like, what happened to me with some writer? I must have had some experience with a writer where I was like, holy fucking shit. Is this your personality?

Because I'm so pleased when writers can talk and be normal. Thank you. I appreciate it because I have felt the same way after meeting many of my heroes. Contemporaries or heroes. Right. What are you reading right now, Lisa? I am reading Bookshop Woman, Big Swiss and Burnham Wood. Do you read three books at a time? I read more than three books at a time. I don't finish them very quickly. I read a lot. Oh, I love that. I do the same thing. I rotate between books and then I'm like,

oh, this one I didn't finish three months ago. And then I just jog my memory with the last chapter. I'm like, okay, I'll finish this now. Exactly. And I also do that for inspiration and stuff like that. But that's exactly how I read. I once read a book and halfway through, I was like, have I read this before?

And then I was like, because that happens with TV all the time, right? But when it happens with a book, I'm like, wait a second. I know what the fuck is about to happen here. Anyway, okay. Everyone is going to watch Three Women. I'm very excited for you.

And thank you so much for spending time with us today. Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to see you again and a pleasure to meet you, Catherine. Oh, thanks, Lisa. Likewise. I can't wait to see you the next time I have to interview you. The next time I have to interview you. Okay. Okay. Bye, Lisa. Thank you so much. Thank you. Okay. So upcoming shows that I have, you guys, Charlotte, North Carolina, Charleston, South Carolina. I'm coming to Texas. I'm coming to St. Louis and Kansas City. And then I will be in Las Vegas performing at the Chelsea Theater inside the Cosmopolitan Hotel. My first three dates in Vegas are September 1st, Labor Day weekend, and then November 2nd and November 30th.

I'm coming to Brooklyn, New York at the King's Theater on November 8th. And I have tickets on sale throughout the end of the year in December. So if you're in a city like Philadelphia or Bethlehem or San Diego or New Orleans or Omaha, check chelseahandler.com for tickets. Okay.

If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email at DearChelseaPodcast at gmail.com. And be sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered by Brad Dickert, executive producer, Catherine Law. And be sure to check out our merch at ChelseaHandler.com. Do you want a shortcut to the best version of you? Here it is. Feed the good wolf. I'm Eric Zimmer, host of The One You Feed.

Every week, I talk to brilliant minds and brave souls about the art of small, powerful choices. Our listeners say it all. This is a lifeline. Transformational. The best antidote to a bad mood I've ever heard. Join the pack and start feeding your best self. Listen to the one you feed on the iHeartRadio app, financial hangover, that can be a huge bummer. If you are out there and you're dreading the new statement email that reveals the massive balance that you may have racked up, well, you could use our help. That's right.

I'm Joel. And I am Matt. And we're from the How To Money podcast. Our show is all about helping you make sense of your personal finances so you can ditch your pesky credit card debt once and for all, make real progress on other crucial financial goals that you've got, and just feel more in control of your money in general. You know it. For money advice without the judgment and jargon, listen to How to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Go to reallynoreally.com and register to win $500, a guest spot on our podcast, or a limited edition signed Jason bobblehead.

The Really Know Really podcast. Follow us on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to Decisions Decisions, the podcast where boundaries are pushed and conversations get candid. Join your favorite hosts, me, Weezy WTF. And me, Weezy WTF, and me, Mandy B, as we dive deep into the world of non-traditional relationships and explore the often taboo topics surrounding dating, sex, and love. Every Monday and Wednesday, we both invite you to unlearn the outdated narratives dictated by traditional patriarchal norms. Tune in and join the conversation. Listen to Decisions Decisions on the Black

Effect Podcast Network, iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, I'm Kate Max. You might know me from my popular online series, The Running Interview Show, where I run with celebrities, athletes, entrepreneurs, and more. After those runs, the conversations keep going. That's what my podcast, Run High is all about. It's a chance to sit down with my guests and dive even deeper into their stories,

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