Dear Chelsea - Writing Your Way Through with Kristin Hannah

Episode Date: March 14, 2024

Celebrated author Kristin Hannah joins Chelsea this week to talk about how to make the muse appear, why careers are made in the aggregate, and why Chelsea thinks Alaska is the last place on earth she���d want to be.  Then: A new author wrestles with the last 50 pages of his novel.  The writer of a feminist newsletter wonders whether to reveal her past.  And a woman who lost her dad on 9/11 struggles to tell her story. * Books mentioned in this week’s episode: The Women The Great Alone The Nightingale Shadow of the Wind Remarkably Bright Creatures In the Belly of the Elephant The Square of Sevens Over the Top Into Thin Air * Need some advice from Chelsea? Email us at [e-mail] * Executive Producer Catherine Law Edited & Engineered by Brad Dickert * * * * * The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the Podcast author, or individuals participating in the Podcast, and do not represent the opinions of iHeartMedia or its employees.  This Podcast should not be used as medical advice, mental health advice, mental health counseling or therapy, or as imparting any health care recommendations at all.  Individuals are advised to seek independent medical, counseling advice and/or therapy from a competent health care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issues, health inquiry or matter, including matters discussed on this Podcast. Guests and listeners should not rely on matters discussed in the Podcast and shall not act or shall refrain from acting based on information contained in the Podcast without first seeking independent medical advice.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Katherine. Hi, Chelsea. How are you? Hi, I'm very excited about our guest today because she's an author and all my friends up here are reading her books, knowing and anticipation that she's coming on.

So this is an exciting time. You know how much I love authors. And I that she's coming on. So this is an exciting time. You know how much I love authors. And I, what's going on? What's going on? Well, I had a whirlwind week. I was in Deer Valley skiing this week. I was performing and then I went to the Oscar parties to get my dress and my glam on. And my friends in Whistler are like, every time we see pictures of you dressed up, we're like, that can't be you. That's not her. I'm like, that's the real me. You do look nine feet tall in these column dresses. You look extremely tall. I know. Yesterday I was skiing. I got this new ski outfit sent to me from Bogner. Shout out to

Bogner Skiwear. Thank you for that. And my friends are like, oh, my God, your body, your ass, your legs. I was like, keep it coming, girls. I am also loving all the outtakes from your birthday shoot as well, popping up here and there. I'm like, damn, girl, you've been working out. It's great. Bernice really, really got a lot of attention. And I think she likes being in a baby Bjorn on my back

because she was just so chill and relaxed. And I was like, God, do you love skiing as much as your mama does? Her legs sticking out. She was like in heaven. She's like a tax. She looks like she's been taxidermied, which is my type. But Doug, I just I mean, everyone wanted to have Doug this last weekend. All my friends in Whistler are like, who's taking care of Doug? Bernice is popular, too. But Doug is like other level because I don't I have to keep, you know, and I'm trying to split them up so I don't have to ask somebody to watch two of my dogs

but Doug is ridiculous did I tell you about his diarrhea yes you did so now he's diarrhea Doug he's feeling better after his little he is but he'll still be diarrhea Doug in my heart forever hey Chelsea

here's a question for you. Was there a book that everybody loved that you just could not get through? Yeah, a lot of books. Catch 22, Midnight Children by Salman Rushdie. I could never finish that. I didn't know what the fuck he was talking about by the third. I was like, what? There's a man in a boat? I don't, where? So I didn't read that. But growing up, I think the most seminal book was The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand. I read that like three times. I'm not sure really what I got out of it, but I liked it and I liked rereading it. Yeah, Fountainhead. That was a good, that was like an 18 year old book. Yeah. Well, clearly you didn't get your politics from that. So that's a good thing at least. No, I didn't. I don't even think I understood what I was reading. But I liked

the idea. I liked some of the ideas in it. And then when I would read book discussions on it, I'm like, Oh, wait, I don't even know what happened. My comprehension skills were not where they needed to be. Yeah, yeah. For me, it was Pachinko. And my mom loved this book. Everyone loved this book. But I just I couldn't lock in with the characters. So I think I'm going to have to watch the show of that because I've heard it's really, really good. There's a series of it. Yeah, I remember reading Pachinko. I really liked Pachinko. But yeah, I tried to watch the show, but I couldn't get into it. I don't like when they make books into shows. It's one or the other with me, not both. For sure.

All right. Well, we have an amazing guest today, actually. My mom and my mother-in-law are really excited about her. Oh, yes, yes. Our guest today is the best-selling author of The Women, The Great Alone, The Nightingale, and Fly or Fly Lane, Fly or Fly Lane, and currently has the number one selling book in America, which is called The Women. Please welcome author Kristen Hanna.

Hi, guys. First of all, she has the number one book in the New York Times. Well, pretty much every bestsellers list and book list is right now. Number one is The Women. And you may know Kristen from her other books like The Nightingale and The Great Alone, which Kristen, I have to say, that subject matter couldn't be less appealing to me. And I could not put that book down. Like, I have sent that book. I sent two books out this year as Christmas gifts to everybody.

One was The Great Alone, and then there was another book. And people, I mean, everyone, all my friends at Whistler, all of it. We just like reference it all the time because it was so painful, painful and traumatizing and beautiful and all of the things that you're known for. So let's talk a little bit about all your inspiration for these books. There's a lot of common themes that you write about. You write a lot about PTSD. You write a lot about the war, whether it's Vietnam or World War II, I think. Oh, no, no. The guy in Great Alone was from, he had PTSD from Vietnam, right? Yeah. So what made you so interested in that topic? You know, I think actually, Chelsea, it's because I was a kid during the Vietnam War. And, you know, it was such a fraught time. And

there was so much anger and political division. And I had a best friend, you know, we were like in third grade and her father served in Vietnam and was shot down and never returned. and thought about it. And we wore these prisoner of war bracelets where we had the serviceman's name and the number that they were, or the date that they were lost on your wrist. And the idea was that you would wear this until he came home. So I wore it for decades waiting. And I think it just, when I saw how the Vietnam vets were treated when they came home, it just really stuck with me. And, you know, and obviously we've had wars since then, but I just think it's so important that if we're going to ask people to go off and serve their nation and put themselves in harm's way for us, that we care for them when they come back. And so I keep coming back to this, this issue that means a lot to me. Yeah, it is pretty, it's a pretty embarrassing when you find out what

vets have when they returned and how many of our homeless population are vets who aren't taken care of by our own government, who they sacrifice for. It doesn't, I mean, how do you look at it? Like how old were you when the Vietnam war was happening? Well, let's see. It doesn't, I mean, how do you look at it? Like you, how old were you when the Vietnam war was happening? Well, let's see. I was 13, I think when it ended. And so I was, you know, like in kindergarten or something when it started. Jesus, that's a long time. When you compare the way we are now with everything that's going on in the world now, and you think back to that time,

what strikes you in terms of this position our country's in or the temperature of our country, maybe? Well, the political division that we're seeing now and that we were seeing during the pandemic and for the last several years felt very much like Vietnam, which is why, you know, I think I chose this moment to write the book. But it was a very different time because in terms of the political division, in simplest terms, you could say that it was sort of young versus old and left versus right. And, you know, there was this whole movement, the whole flower power, make love, not war, you know, all of that kind of stuff. So the, what we were fighting about was much, I think, much more philosophical. I mean, right. Philosophical, same kind of divisions, but people, there's very, it was

very disparate, like being in that war. First of all, the way that our government lied to us over and over again about what was happening over there, which I'm sure still happens every single day in our country. In whatever war we're in, we're being lied to. So that's disappointing. But in terms of like, I want to talk a little bit about your writing process because you're so prolific. I mean, I don't know. I can't believe you. When you DMed me and said, have you read my book yet?

I'm like, you wrote another book? When? I just got done with the last one. So I want to talk about that because how do you, what is your process and how long does it take you? And what do you do every day? Well, so for you, okay. So we have to go back a little bit. I started this career. I used to be a lawyer and I started this career because I got pregnant and had a baby and wanted to be an at-home mom. So I wanted something that I could do that was sort of for myself, but was at home, which meant that in the beginning,

I wrote during nap time and I've just sort of continued on. And so for years, I wrote a book a year. And then a couple of times I would take two years like Firefly Lane if I wanted to sort of redefine myself. And I think when I reached a certain age, and it corresponds to writing The Nightingale, I started going three years between books. What's weird about now is the books keep selling. I mean, like The Great Alone, I mean, it was out in 2018, but people were still discovering it in 2022. So it sort of feels like I'm having another book instantly, but really it's been three years.

And did it hit number one? Was it very popular when it came out or did it gain its popularity after a couple of years, The Great Alone? No, it hit number one and it was popular when it came out or did it gain its popularity after a couple of years? The Great Alone. No, it hit number one and, you know, it was popular. Actually, you know, the Great Alone popularity surprised me. I didn't actually, because as you point out, it was a dark subject matter and, you know, it was, it was kind of difficult. So I've been really surprised that people have responded to both the beauty and the harshness of Alaska and the sort of difficulty of that relationship. You spent time in Alaska, right?

Yeah. My family's business is sport fishing lodges and they have one in Alaska. They have a bear camp and a fishing camp. Yeah. I guess you, I mean, I don't see how you could possibly write about that, that aloneness unless you've experienced it. And when anyone wants to talk about aloneness or feeling alone, they need to read that book and think about Alaska. Cause that's when you're really fucking alone. I mean, that is one of the most unappealing backdrops I could ever, ever imagine. Okay. So what's your process writing? Like, do you write every morning? Do you write it? You write nap time. That's what you used to do. But I mean, are you disciplined? You must be. Yeah, I am really disciplined. I mean, it's a, it's a two prong thing. First of all,

it's a job. And, you know, I remember like when I was a lawyer, nobody said, Hey, do you feel like practicing law today? You just went in and sort of, you know, did your job. And so that's what I try to do. And in terms of, you know, the writing process, I'm asked all the time, well, what about when inspiration and when you need the muse to show up and when you need to be inspired? And I really find that the muse shows up when I sit down and, you know, that if I go in search of it, I'm more likely to find it. So yes, I'm very disciplined. I sit down every day. I write pretty much from seven to four and lunch with my husband and, you know, and then I write. And then what I do now is I take months off where I'm not writing.

So I, you know, I work 50 hours a week when I am writing and then I'll take, you know, two or three months off and travel or hang out, drink wine, whatever. Yeah. I'm with you on that. There's a time like, you know, to harvest and then there's a time for, you know, there's a time for planting and there's a time for harvesting. And if we don't, like as creatives, if, if people, if we're not filling ourselves up with real life, it's like, then what did we have? What kind of output do we have? I'm with you on the three months off. I love taking my vacation time very seriously because I need to experience things and, you know, experience stories that I can then put back, spit back out and regurgitate.

That's true. And without that life experience, it's like, well, what are, you know, I think that is so important and people don't give, especially American culture. It's not about that. You're not supposed to be taking so many breaks. It's such a hustle, hustle, hustle, but you can hustle and also take breaks. Those two things can work together. What happens when you find out you're number one on the New York times list? Well, champagne is sort of the first thing. And I think almost it's a great sense of relief. It's joyful. Obviously, it's exciting. I love all of that.

But it's mostly just, OK, so I think it's probably the same for anyone, for you, for anyone. When you get reviews and when you realize that something that you have poured your heart and soul in, in private, alone, behind closed doors for years, is being embraced by people. And for this book, even more than number one, what has been so huge is sort of the outpouring of love and support and gratitude, really, from female and male veterans and their families. And I can't tell you how many, you know, women have come up to me crying saying, you know,

thank you for just reminding people that we matter in the service, that we're out there, that we're working, we're doing our best. And I think you get to an age, I'm certainly there now, where you realize that remembrance and gratitude matters. You know, you don't want to do all of this in a void, whether it's stay at home motherhood, or your job, or your creative process. I think we all need to be seen. Absolutely. I love that. Yeah. I think that is the one thing. I think that is the one thing that, you know, growing up when you're a kid and you are seen, when you feel seen, right, by a teacher or by your aunt or uncle and not in a

creepy way, that really does empower you. Like if someone notices you and notices whatever you're good at and is encouraging, I mean, being seen, I think is the number one thing people don't feel, right? When people feel that kind of tenderness or aloneness or vulnerability, they just feel like they're not understood or misunderstood. It can change your life. I mean, one teacher coming up and saying, I had a teacher in eighth grade who said, you know what? You have a power here. People like you. You don't have to be so afraid all the time because I went to a million different schools and I was always the new kid in the wrong jeans with the wrong haircut. And so I tried to be

invisible. And, you know, in eighth grade, someone said, you know, know hey you don't have to do that and it was really pretty life-changing I had a teacher who actually passed away this last week named Mrs. Sheckman and she was my third grade teacher and I always was problematic and she would take me on the weekends to her husband she and her husband had a house down the Jersey Shore and her she was trying to help my parents she's like let me her. Let me help her because I was so full of it and angst. I just wanted to be a woman. I couldn't handle childhood. I was like, this is so annoying. And she would take me and she would sit with me

and just be like, do you understand? You're going to do amazing things in this world. Like you're going to be incredible. But it wasn't at a time where I ever thought that. I was only eight or nine. I was like, well, yeah, whatever. I just couldn't. And the time that she spent with me, I can't remember anything she said to me, but I know that feeling. And it was, I felt so cared for and so special that she went out of her way to spend

time with me that I will never forget that. And I always think of that when I think of children, you know, because I don't have a high tolerance for them. So I really have to pick and choose the ones that I want to be around, but it is so impactful to have that kind of influence. Now, do you mentor, mentor anyone? Are you into that in terms of writing? Like, do you help other authors? I do. I do. I haven't helped, I haven't worked with a lot of beginning novelists, but I work with, you know, a sort of a big group of us who all sort of came of age at the same time. And, and there's something so powerful. I was going to point out what you were going to, what you were saying earlier about children and being, you know, mentored like that.

It's especially important for girls. And I found like with the women, female writers community, there, there was for a long time, this don't ever tell anybody what you're doing, what you're making, what you're getting, you know, keep everything very competitive. And so I've got this big group of female friends where we share information now. And that's another thing that's kind of life-changing is women sort of owning their own ambition and coming together to share information that is withheld from us. Yeah. Which also seems like a newer thing, female supporting females. It's like we finally cracked the code and we're like, oh wait, why the hell are we listening to men tell us to, you know, they're the ones that are separating us

and making us so competitive. And it feels like a recent thing where women are really showing up for each other and understanding we're not each other's enemy. You know, we actually have to stick together and become the most powerful version of ourselves. Absolutely. And that's one of the best things I see happening around us now. I mean, when I was a young lawyer, there were very few, you know, female lawyers that were partners or, you know, were running the firms or anything. And there was very little mentoring going on. And it all felt very competitive, like there was only room for one at a time. And, and I think we have all learned how important it is to, you know, offer a hand to the people coming, the girls coming up behind us. Yeah, you're right. I mean, there's a lot of female friendships in the books, obviously. There's always, you know, a strong connection, especially in the women and the great alone, you know, that community in Alaska and the Nightingale. And so that must feel

important for you to demonstrate. You know, absolutely. And that was something, you know, like I said, I moved around a lot. So, so childhood friendships are rare. And I think it wasn't until I was in college and then a young mother and a young wife and all those things where I really sort of understood this truth that had not been sort of passed along to me anyway, for whatever reason, my mom died very young. So maybe that's part of it. But this, this truth that it is your girlfriends who will carry you through life, who will be there when, you know, when the shit hits the fan, it's your girlfriends that you call when you feel like a bad mother, it's your girlfriends, when you want to celebrate anything that happens. And I think it's so important because we come together,

we witness each other's lives. We are each other's support in many ways. We're soulmates, you know, with our best friends. And I think that's kind of an idea that is, it feels new, even though it shouldn't be. I know. Isn't that so weird? It's so within us and in our DNA, like as a woman, you know, we're so maternal just by nature. We have to really unlearn all of these things that have been kind of put on us. How old were you when your mom passed? I think I was about 24. Okay. So how does that affect you being a mother, losing your mother at that age? You know, it's hard. I mean, it's really hard. And then you have to rely on your dad. And my dad was of course broken at the time as well. We all were, you know,

she was so young, 46. And so at 24, you don't realize how impactful this is going to be because you are at that age where you think you've got it nailed. You know, everything, you know, you're the smartest girl in the room. And so it wasn't until I would say really almost 40 when it really struck me. I didn't know my mother and I had to sort of go and search for her, you know, try to find her myself. And I did that the way I do everything, which is through writing. And so that's why I wrote the book Firefly Lane about a woman who is, you know, dealing with breast cancer, because that was my best way to try to figure out, like, what did this look like from her side?

Yeah. And I'm curious at how it actually impacts your parenting because you know that you're giving her something that you didn't necessarily get for that long. Yeah. think always in the back of your mind is this idea that being a parent is really important. Being there and showing up is really important, but also understanding, I think that you have a finite amount of time and knowing sort of, I guess the peaks and valleys that the relationship, you know, will go through. And I just always try to the best of my ability to never sort of do something that I think is across the line because you just never know how much time you have. Yeah. Okay. Well, we're going to take a break and we're going to be right back.

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Listen to Therapy for Black Girls starting on January 1st on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back with Kristen Hanna. I'm so happy to have you on the podcast today. Katherine, do we have some callers? We're going to give advice, Kristen. So buckle up. Our first email really just has to do with recommendations. Our listeners love books and are constantly asking for more recommendations. So Kathy says, my name is Kathy Quinn. I'm from Dublin, Ireland. I'm about to go on vacation and I would love a list of book recommendations.

Kathy. Oh, okay. So Kathy, you're not telling me what you actually like to read. So I would say there's a book called We Begin at the End by Chris Whitaker that I love. I almost always recommend Shadow of the Wind by Carlos Ruiz Zafon. And for a vacation read, I mean, Lessons in Chemistry is way too easy. So I will go with Remarkably Bright Creatures. I have to say, I agree. I felt Lessons in Chemistry, I felt like I was reading like a school book, like not a school book. And it was just too light and too easy. I'm like, no,

I needed a little bit, a step up. No offense to, I think Bonnie Garland wrote that, right? Garmis, yeah. Garmis, Garmis, sorry. It's a great book, but I also felt that way. And also I just got Belly of the Elephant, Love in the Belly of the Elephant. You guys, have you guys heard about that book?

I didn't read that. It's going around with my Whistler crew. So they gave one to me for my birthday. So I'm going to get into that as soon as I'm done with the women. But I also would say to our caller, just The Great Alone is not ever going to disappoint you if you haven't read that. That is the best page turning emotionally. You're so invested and you feel like you've been spun around the spin cycle and like in a laundromat

after you read that because you have been through every kind of gamut of emotion and it's just so beautiful. And I'm sure many of our listeners haven't yet read it, but the way that you ended that book was done in such a tasteful, non-cheesy way and believable. Like I loved that because sometimes when books have a, that kind of ending, they can go, it's just too much. Like, it's like almost like a rom-com. Yeah. Yeah. And you're like, no, that's not real. But this felt just perfect.

Everything about it from start to finish. It's just blown away. I'd say a couple of recommendations of things I've read recently. This is an old one, but I just finished Into Thin Air, which is John Krakauer. And he talks about being on Mount Everest during the deadliest year of Everest expeditions. I also just read Over the Top, which is Jonathan Van Ness's first book, and I really loved that. It was really a lot more frank than I expected, and so that was great. But one of my favorites that I've read recently is The Square of Sevens. It's by Laura Shepard Robinson,

and it follows a woman in the 1700s who sort of does some divination and reads cards for people. It's really, really cool and exciting. And I will say there is something about the way you write, Kristen, that I found myself, especially with the women, but also with The Great Alone, like you're reading, but you forget that you're reading and you're just seeing it in your mind. You're just sort of like visually seeing this, experiencing the characters and they're just, they're, they're yummy reads. It's pure escapism. Like it's really just takes you away and which is what you want from a book. At least I do. I really, um, as I'm writing, it almost feels like I'm watching a movie and transcribing it. It's so fully formed in my head. And so I think that's

why, I mean, I hear cinematic all the time and I think I am a huge visual person. Has anyone bought the rights to The Great Alone? It is actually in development for whatever that means. And Warner Brothers has just bought The Women. And it looks actually like the Nightingale may film this year, which is pretty exciting after, you know, COVID and the strikes and everything that we've had to deal with. Wow, that's awesome. Congratulations. I love that. Yeah. Well, let's jump to our first caller here. Our first caller is Nicole, and she is a wellness coach and writer. She says, Dear Chelsea, I'm writing to ask you about writing. I'm 28 years old and have endured a

lot in my lifetime and feel called to write about it, but I still have a lot of doubts if my story is enough. Last September, I had a personal essay published in The Cut. I lost my dad on 9-11, and I'm still searching for who he was, is the title of it. Right now, I'm in the final sprint of writing my memoir, along with a group of female writers doing the rest. I've been writing in no particular order, and I feel like my story doesn't have the needed beats to flow that other memoirs encompass. So I've been piecing together memories and scenes and lessons that stand out in my memory from the past 20 or so years. It's been challenging to capture a moment in time, so I include all of it. I keep reminding myself that it's just a first draft, but it doesn't make it any easier to sit down and write the hard stuff. Reading Life Will Be the Death of Me was a beautiful and soul-crushing experience as a reader. I admire how vulnerable you are surrounding the loss of your brother, Chet, and its impact on you. So my question for you is, how do you push past resistance

and write about super personal, vulnerable moments from your life and childhood? What wisdom can you share from your experience writing previous books and the one you're working on now? Thanks so much, Nicole. Hi, Nicole. Hi. Hi. You're very lucky because we have a very big author on today. Kristen, I'm going to let you go first because I consider you much more professional than I do myself. First of all, I find it extremely difficult to write out of order because you lose the connective tissue of one moment to the next. And then you're trying to sort of recapture what you were doing before. But if you're writing what you should be writing, you're slightly changed in every single moment and those need to progress.

So I would say that first of all. And I would also say that everyone's first draft is terrible and frightening and difficult, and you're sure that it's not good enough. And the point of that is to sit down and to push through and get to the end, because really only at the end can you look back with clear eyes and see what the best story is and how to tell it. You have to get all of that out of the way first. I agree with that. Writing out of order can be frustrating because you kind of lose your tempo. And then I always have to write chronologically. I started this book by just writing essays and then I was like, oh, we'll put them together. And I'm like, no, no, no. I actually have to go in a time order. So I agree with that. And I also think like, first of all, it's amazing that you're sitting

down and writing a book. So pat yourself on the back for actually even taking on that task. You've set yourself up for success with a group of other women that are also doing the same thing as you. And your first draft isn't going to be the draft that you want, but it's just important to get, just keep moving. You know what I mean? Towards your goal and keep writing. And you don't get the answers. Like, you know, sometimes I'm writing something. I'm like, this isn't going to work with this. And this doesn't connect to this. And then like some, sometimes in the middle of the day, it just pops into my head, the answer, because when you spend enough time being creative, like that creativity begets more creativity. So it's just like Kristen was saying earlier,

you weren't on the phone yet, but when she sits down and she writes, you have to put the time in for that effort. And then it does kind of all come together when it's supposed to, but you're not supposed to be perfect in your first book. I learned more in my first book and the editing process and I'm on my seventh book. So just all of that, like sentence structure and thought structure and where, where this goes and times and places like all of that stuff, there's so much to learn in the editing process that you just have to know that that is going to be, I think for me, that is the most important ingredient for anything I do is the editing, whether it's my standup, whether it's my books or being on TV, like you always want to edit to amplify. That's what I always think. You don't need to have everything

in there, but you can put everything down and then you go in and go, this isn't necessary. This isn't necessary. And tighten everything to make it just really like full, juicy and go, this isn't necessary, this isn't necessary, and tighten everything to make it just really like full, juicy, and fast, you know, moving, moving, moving. Yeah. To add on to that, which I think is absolutely true, the act of writing is, especially your own story, is so cathartic and so powerful, and it changes you. And just simply the fact that you undertake this and you write it, don't focus too much on, is this publishable?

Where will this go? What will I do with it? Just sit down and focus on the idea of you telling your story for you. And don't you think, Chelsea, it's just so powerful to do that. And getting to the end is the crucial moment. So just keep going. Nicole, so you've written about losing your dad in this very traumatic way, and you've published an article about it. Is that what you're finding the most difficult to write about? Or is it some of the other, you know, connective tissue, the other parts of your life? Yeah, I think it's kind of revisiting it and continuing to revisit and revisions and just kind of constantly looking at it or thinking about it is like the process of a writer.

But I also was diagnosed with leukemia when I was 15. So about 10 years after I lost my dad, that's kind of where the story begins. And then I'm going back in time a little bit there with how this relates to the loss of my dad and how they all kind of come together. So I was wondering when you're writing about these moments of grief and complicated grief, like how do you kind of structure or process your writing so that you're not feeling that all the time or you're kind of getting back to the present? Well, I think in any natural like rhythm, you're going to be right. I mean, I remember writing the life will be the death of me parts of it. And I was bawling, crying,

writing it. But like anything with grief, you're not sitting in it all the time. So you have to be very gentle with yourself. Like when you're having those moments, have those moments. That's where the most beautiful stuff can come from, you know, deep pain and, and grief. And so allow yourself the time to sit with that and don't make such strict rules for yourself, right? You're going to find your own rhythms about things. You're going to find out like when the best time of day is to write. If you haven't already, you're going to find out, oh, okay, I just wrote this and now I need a break to write something a little bit lighter. You're going to get into your rhythm. So just pay close attention to you when you've had a really productive day.

Be like, okay, what was that that led to that productive day? So you can really just keep cultivating the best habits for you. And I'm not worried about it at all for you. This is the process. And in your first book, it can be terrifying. So it's just already bold that you're doing it. Thank you. I really appreciate that. The balance between the creativity and then having to produce something too and having something I want out there. But I think having less pressure and

kind of figuring out what works for me is the process I've been on and I can lean into that more. Yeah. Okay. Well, good luck to you. I can't wait to read your book. Thank you so much. I really appreciate talking to everyone today. Thanks, Nicole. Thank you, Nicole. Take care. Bye.

She seemed like an author. Yeah, I know. And when I first talked to her, she's like, oh, well, I, you know, I'm a wellness coach and stuff. And I'm not really a writer. And I was like, no, you are a writer. I was like that, you know, that's your day job.

That, you know, you might have a nine to five, but it's just so funny that women will always say like that, you know, it's like, we, we can't ever just lean in. Like I'm going to be a writer. I'm writing my first book. It's, you know, no men have no problem. Yeah. I'm an author before they publish a fucking thing. I wish like we could give to all women like 10% of the confidence of like a 22 year old white guy who's just graduated from college. Like just 10%. That'd be perfect. My nephew, Max, we'll start with his confidence. Perfect. Oh, and I just wanted to add to for Nicole, we chatted about it. She is cancer free now. So she is no longer has leukemia and she's doing great. So our next caller is Sarah. Sarah is 36 and she's here in LA. She says, Dear Chelsea, last year I left my full-time

copywriting job to pursue my dream of feminist writing. Since then, I've started a weekly newsletter that has amassed a pretty decent following and continues to grow daily. I've also landed a few big bylines on to grow daily. I've also landed a few big bylines on hot feminist topics. I'm now writing a book that uses some of my own story to highlight how evangelical Christianity and purity culture harmed millennial girls. Since it draws heavily upon my own experiences, my book will implicate people from my past, such as my ex-husband, my old church, and to my great discomfort, even my family. I don't want to use this opportunity Hi, Sarah. Hi, how are you? Hello. Hi. This is Kristen Hanna, our special guest today. Hi. So nice to meet you. Hi, Sarah. So are you writing, is it a novel?

Are you making it fiction? No, it's kind of a memoir plus. It's going to be kind of a deep dive into evangelical purity culture. And I got married at 22 because of that whole ecosystem. So it would talk about generally how that whole Y2K era harmed women and girls like me. So it would use my story, but kind of do more of a cultural deep dive. Well, in the process, as Kristen can attest as well, they, you are going, everyone is writing about themselves to some degree. I mean, whether it's fiction or nonfiction, like we all are. And if you're going to write a nonfiction memoir, you're going to have to change the names and the people anyway, it's a legal issue. So you're going to, they're going

to step in, your editor, and help you with that because you don't have the liberty to like, you know, tell other people's stories, unfortunately. I know that because I've gotten in trouble many, many times. So you do have to kind of disguise everybody. I mean, you could still tell your story. You're just kind of protecting the people that aren't agreeing to be written about, unless you can get their permission. So I wouldn't really worry about that. You know, I mean, Kristen, you've probably had to do that. I mean, you're writing more fiction, obviously, but what has been your experience with chain when you're basing a character on a real person or on an experience in your life? Do you know what? I've actually been really careful not to include real people in my fiction to a great extent

for this very reason. And since I don't do memoirs, I can't really speak to that. But it's interesting because, and maybe you know this, Chelsea, if she calls it a novel and everyone is fictional and it doesn't look too much like her actual husband, where is the line there? Yeah. I would say that that would be a better avenue for you not to have to worry about it because once you fictionalize it, then you can color it with whatever you want. You know, I mean, you can do that in a memoir, but it's, that's not really what a memoir is, but have you thought about making it fiction? No, but that's really interesting. That's a really interesting idea. Cause then you can kind of just let it loose.

You know what I mean? And you could address issues that perhaps you didn't personally face, but you feel, you know, need to be explored and need to be talked about. And then you could use your personal story as sort of marketing and you know and how to sell the book because you would bring so much to a novel as you know as someone to talk to oh that's really interesting okay yeah well the first book I wrote was a novel so I uh I have experience doing that so that that's I had not considered that that That's a great idea. Yeah, because it's like historical fiction, what you're talking about. Yeah. Okay.

Well, great. Problem solved, I think. Yeah. And I mean, I am someone who went through some of the same stuff where like, you know, youth group and purity culture and all this stuff that like really, you know, I've found stuff rattling around in my brain decades later that I'm like, I didn't know that was still in there. A couple of books that I'd recommend to for anybody who did go through that, Pure by Linda

K. Klein was something that helped me sort of unearth a lot of those things rattling around in there that weren't very healthy. And then also Kate Kennedy just wrote a book called One in a Millennial that's on the New York Times bestseller list at the moment. And it's a lot about millennial culture, but also some of the religious stuff that maybe messes up a little bit. So. Well, thank you both. Thank you. Nice to meet you both. I've been such a huge fan of both of you. So I appreciate it. Thank you. Yeah. Anytime. Keep us posted. Okay. Okay. Will do. Bye. Awesome. And if anyone wants to check out Sarah's feminist newsletter, it is called Reclaiming, and you can find it at reclaimingthenewsletter.com.

I kind of wonder too, Kristen, I wonder if you, you know, your career is at the point where one book feeds into the next as far as like you have a following and this sort of thing. Is there any advice you'd give to beginner authors or writers as far as connecting with a publisher, selling your book, getting the word out there, maybe on social media, any of that stuff you've seen work? You know, when you're a beginning writer, everything seems like it's about one book. And how does this book sell? How does this book get reviewed? What happens? And I mean, I'm living proof that a career is made book by book by book, but also in the aggregate and a book that failed, you know, 10 years ago can suddenly be on the bestseller list. And so I think the important thing is, you know, to just, if this is what you want to do, if you want to be a working writer, then you have to make the sacrifices that are necessary to do that. You know, you have to find the time to sit down.

You have to actually write. You need to find a group of people that support you because it's a lonely endeavor. And then you have to not give up. You know, you have to not let failure derail you. You have to not let anything push you aside and keep believing in yourself and your vision and believing that, like I said earlier, the writing itself is the most important thing. If you build it, they will follow. If you do your best time after time after time, and you get lucky, you can have a career or a job at this, but it will never be easy. And I don't know about you,

Chelsea, but like every new endeavor, I think, can I do it again? Do I still have it in me? And you just have to battle that. I think like we were talking about earlier, especially as women. But it's so interesting though, because it's like, do I still have it in me? And I would argue that we get better as we get older in terms of creative. I loved what you just said. It's book by book. It reminds me of that Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott, that book. Somebody should write a book called Book by Book for authors, because that's so true. You think, you know, it's, everything's riding on this one book. And it's like, that's just not the case. I've had very successful books, and I've had less successful books. And it is an aggregate. And it is, it's like, it's the whole collection, you know, so everything is just kind of a step

when you're, when you're a writer, it's like, this is your first book and you know that there's going to be one after that and another one after that. And it doesn't have to be the most successful book in the world for you to get another book deal. All you need is your creative artistic intelligence and you're going to figure it out. But I also think when you have a clear vision about something and you can see it, like what Kristen, what you were saying about when you're writing, I feel that way about things when I'm really like, I guess, in your flow state, you know, when you're in your flow state and it's just easy and it comes to you, but you're very clear about where you're going. It's kind of like, it's almost impossible not to succeed when you have such a clear vision. I think that's true.

And as long as I, the corollary I would add to that is what you said earlier, editing matters. You know, you can easily get to a point where, and especially beginning writers, where they just think everything is perfect as it comes out to them because they feel like they're in that flow state. And the fact is, you know, you have to be an artist for half of the project. And then at some point, you have to be a business person. You know, you have to look at your work with really cold, hard eyes and try to make it the best. And I think one of the things that's great about writing in terms of for the long term is the more you change and grow, the more your work changes and grows,

and the more you bring to the table. And that's, I think, pretty exciting to sort of watch yourself improve over time. Yes. Yes. That is very satisfying. And kind of along those lines, I read somewhere that you had the idea for the women decades ago, but you didn't feel like you were ready to tackle that. Is there a way that you know when it's time to tackle an older idea or when you're ready? Well, when I first pitched a book about Vietnam, it was 1997. So I was 37 and I had an editor who had been at Berkeley in 1968. And she was a very smart woman. And that's one thing I would say, surround yourself with the smartest people you can, and then listen to them. I mean,

that's super important. And she said, you know, honey, you're not old enough and you're not good enough, but come back when you are, because it's a good idea. And in 1997, no one wanted to talk or hear about Vietnam. And so I just kind of waited and I kept, it was almost like my bellwether, like, okay, am I old enough? Am I good enough? And I started realizing, okay, I'm now old enough. And part of that was motherhood. Part of that was seeing the world change around me. Part of that was understanding things about government and politics and American society that I could not possibly have understood when I was younger. And part of it was leaning into risk-taking and saying, okay, I've done this for a very long time, and I am ready to fail if that's what it takes.

And this is my moment. And Chelsea, do you have thoughts on that as well as far as one part of your story when it's time to tell that, going back to things that might be old or painful or. No, I mean, I think you just know when you're like, you've got, when you've ready to drum something up, you know, you're like, I have output. I have enough now I've collected enough new information that I need to get some ideas out there. Um, you know, the book I'm writing now, I've had a more, I was trying to like jam it in, jam it in and write. And like, I was like, okay, let me write here and write there. And it's like, that's not a natural flow when you're doing that. Now, when I've been a whistler for a month or two, that's when I get my writing done.

When I could do it every morning, the first thing I do is get my computer and write for three hours. And half of my writing is editing. Like I'm always editing. I'm always looking. I'm always looking through things again, because I just, I find that to be the sharpest way, especially for comedy. You need to be, have a good editor and you need to be a good self-editor. That's another thing. You know, people can get really married to their own ideas and thoughts.

And when Kristen says, listen to people who are smarter than you, you know, I do defer to my editors every single time when they're like, this isn't really working or da-da. I'm not somebody who has to be like, no, I need this. I need this. I'm very open to feedback. And I think that is a very critical, you know, because some people are too open to feedback and they don't, you know, they kind of lose themselves to the feedback versus being so obstinate. You can't hear any constructive criticism. There's a nice place in the middle to find where you are open to feedback, but you still have an idea of where you're going and you're married to that idea and people can edit around that, but you have to stay true to what your vision is. So Chelsea, how do you, I mean,

you've got a lot of creative pursuits going at any one time, right? Lots of different avenues for your creativity. How do you balance when is the time for what and when to lean in and when to take a moment and wait? I don't know. I'm a little bit of a, you know, like a live wire. I just kind of, I get in a good state, like a flow state with my standup. And then I'm like, you know what? I'm loving this so much. I'm loving the show. I'm going to extend it and do 50 more dates before I shoot my special. When I'm writing, if I'm only writing, then I really get into writing. When you have like too many plates in the air, I find that it diminishes some of your work. So I need like certain, I need to

really focus when I'm writing. I really need to focus on that. I wouldn't be able to start a book until my standup set is exactly where I want it. So once that's an A plus, then I can move on to another endeavor. Like seasons kind of. Yeah. And I also am very good about taking breaks and really filling myself up with travel and culture and exercise and all the stuff

that feeds your soul, you know, different people and exposing yourself to things that aren't really that interesting to you a lot of the time, because you're going to find out that, you know, there's so much to gain from like going into a situation you're not that interested in. And, you know, it's kind of how I feel about the Great Alone. It was such a good example of nothing about that story is anything I care about. I have no interest in that world. Yet, because of the power of your writing and the story, it made me so interested. I think of that as an example of being curious enough to go to a place that you're not that interested in.

Well, let's take a quick break. And I have one more short question when we come back. Perfect. 2025 is bound to be a fascinating year. It's going to be filled with money challenges and opportunities. I'm Joel. Oh, and I am Matt. And we're the hosts of How To Money. We want to be with you every step of the way in your financial journey this year, offering the information and insights you need to thrive financially.

Yeah, whether you find yourself up to your eyeballs in student loan debt, or you've got a sky-high credit card balance because you went a little overboard with the holiday spending, or maybe you're looking to optimize your retirement accounts so you can retire early, well, How To Money will help you to change your relationship with money so you can stress less and grow your net worth. That's right. How to Money comes out three times a week, Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays for money advice without the judgment and jargon. Listen to How to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. One of them. Which wolf are you feeding? I'm Eric Zimmer, host of The One You Feed.

I've been there, homeless, addicted, and lost. I know the power of small choices to turn your life around. On this podcast, I sit down with thinkers, leaders, and survivors to uncover what it takes to feed the good wolf. This podcast saved me. It's like having a guide for the hardest parts of life. The wolves are hungry. What will you feed them? Listen to The One You Feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, y'all. I'm Dr. Joy Harden Bradford, host of Therapy for Black Girls,

and I'm thrilled to invite you to our January Jumpstart series for the third year running. All January, I'll be joined by inspiring guests who will help you kickstart your personal growth with actionable ideas and real conversations. We're talking about topics like building community and creating an inner and outer glow. I always tell people that when you buy a handbag it doesn't cover a childhood scar you know when you buy a jacket it doesn't reaffirm what you love about the hair you were told not to love so when i think about beauty is so emotional because it starts to go back into the archives of who we were how we want to see ourselves and who we know ourselves to be and who we can be. So a little bit of past, present and future, all in one idea,

soothing something from the past. And it doesn't have to be always an insecurity. It can be something that you love. All to help you start 2025 feeling empowered and ready. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls starting on January 1st on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're back. We are back. So Joseph writes, Dear Chelsea, I'm an aspiring author working on my first book in a series. I'm writing a sci-fi outer space saga that I've been creating for the past five years. It's taken a long time to write a good chunk of it, being as I work full-time. I'm roughly 50 pages from finishing, but lately I've hit a giant wall blocking me from finishing.

I know how I want the book to end, but I get in my head and in my emotions about imposter syndrome. How do you push past writer's block? And also, what kind of environment best suits you for writing? Soft music, coffee shop, dead silence. What's best for getting in the groove? Joseph. I like dead silence. I mean, that's ideal.

But yeah, what about you? Dead silence and no rituals. Like it's time to sit down. So I sit down. Doesn't mean I'm necessarily doing anything right when I sit down. But like I said, my news shows up when I sit down. And in terms of imposter syndrome and doing all of that, that's all sort of, you know, that's all in your head and it's always there. And we, we all have to deal with it all the time. And the bottom line is the only way through is to write your way through. You have to get the words on the page that you can then, you know, turn into, to something else. You just have to. Yeah. And I agree. Like, I don't really have rituals at all.

I mean, I meditate every day, but that's a separate, that's not for writing per se. But I find that that sometimes can even take up more time. Like, you know, like if you sit down and you're in front of your computer or a legal pad or however you write, and you just say, like, I'm going to be here for two hours, you're going to start writing stuff. And it might not always work or always be stuff that you're going to use. That's part of the process too. As far as imposter syndrome goes, it's like, that's not that original either. Everyone feels that way. So it's almost not even worth discussing because it's just part of the package. Everyone's just going to feel like, you know, you, you kind of vacillate between that and then bouts of confidence and capability.

And we all feel that way. And that's just your voice in your head. And so the quicker you can get those thoughts through, the quicker you're going to be able to focus on your story and fill in the blanks that you feel are missing. I think even imposter syndrome, like, gets bigger the closer you get to finishing something, too. And the more you focus on it, the bigger it becomes. I would say too that Joseph, if you are 50 pages from the end, and this is just personal, so this may not be true for you, but if I get to a place where I'm 50 pages from the end of a novel that I've been working on for a long period of time, and I cannot write those last 50 pages, the answer to the question is in the pages that came before. There is somewhere that you have taken a wrong turn, that you have put your character in a

situation that either lessens the conflict or doesn't lead inevitably to your confusion. So you can push through to the end, or you can go back to the beginning and edit to take you back up to that moment. But most likely that's where your problem lies. That's really good advice. And this is really a question for each of you. Do you start with an outline or a skeleton for what you're writing? Or are you just like, let's go with the vision? I have an idea. Let's go. What about you're writing? Or are you just like, let's go with the vision? I have an idea. Let's go. What about you, Kristen? I don't begin a book until I have a very clear vision and I've done a lot of research and I know the story intimately. And then I sit down and write a completely different novel and just pray to God that I can get to a better ending than I had originally

intended. Yeah, I'm not an outline person. My editor's asked me for an outline about three times and I just had to tell her that's not happening. I'm not an outline person. I just do it. I need to just do it my, in my own way. Yeah. So. Well, that's the thing about writing and that's, what's so empowering. It, there is not one size fits all. I mean, you can get, you can get information like this. And I think what happens is when you hear from other writers, you know, what speaks to you and you hear the information when you need to hear it. And otherwise it just collects in there. So the more you can listen to, you know, conversations like this, I think the more you can find the

answer that you're looking for. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, Kristen, Hannah, oh my God, what a delight. I love you. And it was so nice to meet you. I hope I see you again in person sometime soon. I hope so.

I would love to. This was really great. Thank you so much. And congrats on all of your earned success. It's pretty great. It's been a good week. Yes. Congrats.

Congrats. Congrats. All right. And good luck a good week. Yes. Congrats. Congrats. Congrats. All right. And good luck with the book you're working on. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Take care of you guys. Take care. Bye-bye. Thanks, Kristen. Bye. Okay. So Chelsea Handler is my name and comedy is my game. Comedy and therapy are my games. I'm sorry. I misspoke. I have added more shows. I added a second show in Vancouver. So I have two shows in Vancouver, March 29th, March 30th. Then I've added another show in Sydney, Australia on July 13th. So I have two shows in Sydney, July 12th and 13th. For other shows in Australia and New Zealand, go to ChelseaHandler.com. And I've added two shows in Oklahoma, Norman, Oklahoma, on May 3rd and one in Thackerville, Oklahoma, which is May 4th. And then I'll be at the YouTube Theater May 11th in Los Angeles with Matteo Lane and Vanessa Gonzalez and Fortune Feimster and Sam Jay.

Those are my updates and more shows are coming. So pay attention. If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email at dearchelseapodcast at gmail.com and be sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited and engineered by Brad Dickert, executive producer, Catherine Law. And be sure to check out our merch at chelseahandler.com. Do you want a shortcut to the best version of you?

Here it is. Feed the good wolf. I'm Eric Zimmer, host of The One You Feed. Every week, I talk to brilliant minds and brave souls about the art of small, powerful choices. Our listeners say it all. This is a lifeline. Transformational.

The best antidote to a bad mood I've ever heard. Join the pack and start feeding your best self. Listen to the one you feed on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Joel, the holidays are a blast, but the financial hangover, that can be a huge bummer. If you are out there and you're dreading the new statement email that reveals the massive balance that you may have racked up, well, you could use our help. That's right. I'm Joel. And I am Matt.

And we're from the How To Money podcast. Our show is all about helping you make sense of your personal finances so you can ditch your pesky credit card debt once and for all, make real progress on other crucial financial goals that you've got, and just feel more in control of your money in general. You know it. For money advice without the judgment and jargon, listen to How to Money on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, y'all. I'm Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, host of Therapy for Black Girls. This January, join me for our third annual January Jumpstart series. Starting January 1st, we'll have inspiring conversations to give you a hand in kickstarting your personal growth.

If you've been holding back or playing small, this is your all-access pass to step fully into the possibilities of the new year. Listen to Therapy for Black Girls starting on January 1st on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.