Dear Hank & John - 412: This Is Going to Be a Therapy Session (w/ Shan Boodram!)

Episode Date: May 21, 2025

How do I become someone people care about? Should I tell my roommate’s boyfriend that she is cheating on him? How do I meet people and start dating? What break-up remedies do you recommend? My boyfriend has a different aesthetic than mine, how do we decorate? How do I deal with the grief of losing a pet that is still alive? …Shan Boodram and John Green have answers. If you're in need of dubious advice, email us at [e-mail] us for monthly livestreams at patreon.com/dearhankandjohn.Follow us on Twitter! twitter.com/dearhankandjohn

You're listening to a Complexly podcast. Hello and welcome to Dear Hank and John, or in this case, Dear John and Shan. It's a very special episode where I am joined by Crash Course Sex Ed host Shan. Hello. Oh my gosh, that still feels like a dream come true to hear those three words strung together. Is that three words? Crash, course, host, Shan. It's four.

It's four. But just Crash Course Host is three, so that'll work. But it's gotta say my name for it to really zing, you know? That's what I'm feeling of. I grew up, I didn't grow up watching Crash Course, that's a lie. I went to college and I had Crash Course. Cause I think when people say that sometimes

they make it seem as if they're much younger than they are. I was college age when I was deep into my Crash Course phase and it was such a gift to me. And so when I got that email, it was a literal no brainer just to be able to give back to this space and then how rewarding to see how it's giving back to others in return. So it's all around just amazing experience. I just wanted to say thank you.

I never actually got to say thank you so much to the work that you and your brother do. So I'm just happy to say it to you in person and thanks for the opportunity to host on Crash Course. Well, thank you for doing such an amazing job. I'm so proud of Crash Course Sex Ed. If you haven't seen it, you should check it out. It covers all the topics, you know. I have to confess, I've been sharing it with my kids because some of that stuff's a little hard to talk about. So I'm just like, hey, I think there's a crash course on this.

Can I get your advice on this actually, John? Because I have a niece and nephew who are 13 and 15. And I come across this all the time in my work where I speak to parents about sex and then the parent is like, oh, my kids aren't even thinking about that. And that's majority of people's responses. But when we know what normal sexual development is

and what normally happens age by age, we know that statistically your kid is probably thinking about it and if they're not someone in classes. So I have my niece and nephew who are so dear to me and I brought it up to them in front of a parent who immediately gave the, they're not even thinking that way, shut down. Since then, I've tried to bring it up to them again to get them engaged about or excited about watching it. So how did you get your kids to watch it? Did you text the link? Did you send it? Oh no, I sat with them. Is that too embarrassing?

I don't think so. Yeah. Maybe I have to sit with them. Is that too embarrassing? I don't think so. Yeah. Maybe I have to sit with them. Does that feel forceful? No. Well, I guess it would feel forceful if I was like, hey, there's a crash course about this and we have to watch it. It's required viewing. But I went out of my way not to do that. I was like, hey, I think there's a crash course about this if you're curious. And so we can talk about it afterwards. And for me, that's part of what it does is provide a venue through which you can talk about something with no stigma, no shame attached, no like, no judgment, all that, all that stuff that goes into so many

conversations about human sexuality. And instead, just kind of use it as a jumping off point as like a diving board. And then you're swimming in the water one way or another. I will say that my kids like after we talk about this stuff they're always like I'm always like do you have questions? They're always like absolutely not. One time I don't know if I should tell this story but I think it's hilarious one time one of my kids when they were very young like six or seven one of my kids said said, you know what a lesbian is, right? And they said, yeah, but can you remind me? I love that.

And it's around the age of eight or nine that they get the concept that sexuality is a private thing. A lot of us even grew up with the term privates to describe our genitals. It doesn't really click for them for a long time because they're walking around naked, they're pointing at penises and vulvas and asking all kinds of questions about where do babies come from. And it's usually around seven or eight where they start to get this notion that, oh, this is like a secretive private thing.

And then it becomes harder to engage them in conversations. So if you haven't been having them, I think from when they were really young and then you try to start around this age, it can get a little tricky. So a part of me is a little fearful that I may have waited too long with my niece and nephew, which would feel like such a crime because I'm like, damn it. Like, you know, the people close to me should have this information if nobody else, because that's who we truly do it for. Yeah. I mean, this is your job after all. Right. Get in the game, Shan.

All right, Shan, I'm going to ask you some questions from our listeners. I'm going to try to keep it mostly PG-13. That's most of the questions we get, not out of, but there are some good ones here. I thought this was a really good question to start out with from Isabelle, and this made me very sad,

but I also think is a nearly universal phenomenon. So Isabelle, you should not feel alone in this experience. Isabel says, dear Shannon John, I fear I have never made an impression on anybody in my life and am thus not thought about very much by the people I love. This understandably makes me very sad. How do I become somebody that people care about?

Sincerely, I hate high school Isabel. We all know what that's like, don't we? I mean, I remember that feeling very intensely. Oh, take me back to that feeling. Do you have a moment that comes to mind? Well, this is going to be a therapy session. I knew it. I do have a moment that comes to mind. You know, I remember thinking it's not just that people don't like me, although like insofar as I thought people thought of me, I thought they didn't like me when I was in high school, especially in like ninth and tenth grade. It's also that they didn't think about me one way or the other. In my mind, that extended out not just to... It extended out to the people I cared

about most. I understood that my parents thought about me and cared about me. I just didn't really care about what they thought. I didn't need their affirmation. I needed affirmation from my peers, and I really wasn't getting that. I needed to feel like the people... Like really wasn't getting that and I needed to feel like You know the people like like isabel says the people I cared about the most which unfortunately weren't my family It was you know, my peers the people I went to school with the people I was

Wanting to be friends with in real life like I wanted them to care about me and them to think that I was exceptional and special and interesting and worthy of care and I wasn't you know,, I remember this one day where like I was sitting on the bus and everybody and everybody walked past me to sit with their friend. And I realized that like, I didn't have a bus friend. And that was so such a bummer for me.

And I just felt so unlovable, uninteresting, just utterly, utterly ordinary and like a piece of furniture rather than a human being, you know? That's so beautiful to hear you say that. And I know I can almost feel that person walk by and that those thoughts come to mind. I want to share, and this is going to be, it's going to round out not to sound like a ridiculous comment, but I want to share I don't relate to Isabel's comment. And there's a lot of hope in that. I don't relate because I grew up with a dad whom you're, he is a one in a billion person and you're not going to forget him. Every room that he walks into, every encounter,

but my dad's hat trick is to shock people. So I think in many ways that kind of describes why I do what I do for a living. I'm like, what's the most taboo topic possible that I can talk about? But my dad always had that, like, he's just going to shock people and you're going to leave the room and remember him and half the room is going to love him and half the room is going to hate him. So I was, I learned this trick. And so I believe for me in high school, I had that there was a lot of, I had a lot of enemies and I had a lot of people who really adored me, but that all to be said, it's learned behavior.

Um, what I actually had to do as I got a little older is realize that, you know, you can shock people, um, to making you memorable, but that doesn't mean that they have a positive memory about you or that you actually have a connection. So I then had to, in my late twenties, go and read all of the How to Win Friends and Influence People, the Art of Seduction. Recently, I read a book called How to Know a Person

by David Brooks, which completely revolutionized how I make connections. I've come now to appreciate introversion so much more as an extremely powerful way to get to know people and understand people, because those who know how to be with themselves know how to be with other people. And they know intuitively what a moment requires because they are a little bit more thoughtful. So I just think it's a matter of taking what you already know, taking the reflection,

reflectiveness that you've already probably accumulated as it sounds like a quieter person in Isabel, and then applying some basic principles that you can read in a book and you can learn and you can master these. So my recommendation for her is How to Win Friends and Influence People, which is like, you know, classic book. And then my second would be how to know a person by David Brooks because You know the quality of our life is Definitely correlated to the quality of our relationships not necessarily the quantity of them. So you don't eat Everybody to remember you and everybody, you know to have a thought but if five people if you've changed the lives of five people for the Better, I mean you've left your mark on this planet and you're already still so young. So it's a beautiful thing.

Mm hmm. Yeah, no, I agree. All right. I have another question for you. It's from anonymous. Dear Shannon, John, I have reason to believe my roommate may be cheating on her long distance boyfriend. However, I have no proof at the moment. This sounds like a detective novel. I'm going to mind my business. But if I am presented with proof that she's cheating, do I tell her boyfriend? How do I tell him? I've never met him and I don't particularly like her. Significant others and side pieces, anonymous. I mean, what do you do here, man? Like this is, I never know how to answer these questions. Like whenever we get a question that's like this, I'm always like, oh God, I have no idea how to deal with like competing complicated relationships. So what's your recommendation?

I feel like in life, you got to know where your moral compass is, north, south, east and west are like four strong things that you definitely know when you stand on. And people who are around you should know that that's your value system and understand that that's the moral code that you live by. And so if that's a part of your, you know, your big four, I just brought, I've made it four on the spot. It could be five or three things. We could be one thing.

Um, then yeah, you say something. It's not a part of my four. I, I, there, there are other things I probably prioritize more in terms of, um, I think of cheating as a very human experience and very universal experience. I may have too much grace for it, but if it sounds like you don't, I would definitely say something. If I felt it and I got the proof,

and this was again a part of what I felt deeply convicted of as a person. Similarly with racism, it could be environment, it could be if somebody litters, it can be if you see someone doing something wasteful. I think that we all have a right to have something that burns in our chest that we feel like we're put on this planet to try to right that wrong. If you feel that for that, then squeal like a pig.

If you don't, then I'd probably keep quiet. But again, I'm not going to pass off my moral hierarchy onto you. Oh, that's a really smart answer. I have no idea what I would do. I think that I would find it very stressful to know that, and I do not know what I would do. I think I would, hmm, I don't know. I'm glad I'm not presented with that conundrum.

Yeah, so that's kind of in your gray space, and then that's fascinating too, where it's sort of like, ah, well, tell me, tell me why you think you would and why you feel like you would not. Like what's what's straddling you on the fence? I think I would because I would want to know, especially. Well, yeah, that's why.

Because like I think and I and I think I wouldn't because I would. Part of me would think like. I'm not sure this is my business. Also, like, I don't know the inside of their relationship for all I know they could have an open relationship like how do I know what do I know about their relationship you know like is about those that's probably that's probably I think this is by anonymous not is about but yes anonymous knows anonymous probably knows you're right thank you so much but we'll just call all the

anonymous is Isabelle Shan that'll be a new thing that we do now now every Anonymous probably knows. You're right. Thank you so much. But we'll just call all the Anonymous's Isabel Shan. That'll be a new thing that we do. Thank you. Now, every Anonymous is named Isabel for the rest of all time, not just in this podcast, but in all podcasts. Beautiful name. It's a great name. All right.

I got a question for you from Abby. It says, I'm 17 years old and I'm at the end of my senior year of high school. We get so many questions like this, Shan, and I've never been in a relationship so far, a romantic relationship. However, I am going to college this fall and I'm never been in a relationship so far, a romantic relationship. However, I am going to college this fall and I'm interested in dating. Do you have any advice on how to meet people? I'm hoping it will happen organically as I don't really want to do the online thing.

I also want to stay focused on school and taking care of myself. Thank you for continually adding good stuff to the world. Almost an adult despite the anagram, Abby. Wait, is that an anagram? Confused. Baby. It anagrams to baby. That's good, Abby.

It took me a second, but Abby anagrams to baby. Anyway, Abby wants to date but doesn't know how. We get a lot of questions like this from people who are not just in their teens but in their 20s who have never been in romantic relationships and are interested in them but don't know how to pursue them. I have no idea what to tell them but maybe you do. Abby or baby? I feel like baby Abby answered the question in the question there. You have to live, right? And you've already outlined exactly how you want to live. So do that. So rather than setting an intention to date,

set an intention to take workout classes, go to wellness classes, whatever is offered on campus, if I'm interpreting that correctly, they're going away to college, but put yourself in, throw yourself into your hobbies, into your values, into your passions and look up while you're doing it, right? Like if there's this going on your phone, look up, connect, talk to people and talk about being single. I think it's a really huge one that people don't do is people don't know that you're looking until you tell them that you're looking, right? And I actually think it's an advantage in many cases to be new at something. The beginner's mindset is what everybody should have for their entire life. And sometimes we get to the bin

there done that phase or we get a little jaded. So I love the sort of eyes wide openness. And I think it's quite positive and not abnormal at all. In terms of the standard deviation, most people start dating around 15, 16 years old. You're 17, 18. Like you're only a couple of standard deviations off of what the average is. So you're right in there.

So don't feel like you're too late. Just feel like you're right on time. And you already have all the answers. So I can't wait to hear how your freshman year went. My first serious romantic relationship was in college, and we actually met on the internet, but it was way before meeting on the internet was cool, Shan. It was 1992. The internet was green letters on a black screen, and we had never seen pictures of

each other and I drove from my college in Ohio to Baltimore Maryland to meet her and then we were in love for many years. Okay so what did you where did you meet online then? On CompuServe back in the old old days like on a bulletin board for teenagers on CompuServe. Isn't that weird? Yeah well it's only just because of the, you don't know if that's a Samoan. Didn't know I knew. I mean, we talked on the phone before.

OK, so yeah. You did a little bit of cat fishing experimentation. A little bit, but I mean, still, we could have been very different from how we were describing ourselves. Because like I said, no pictures exchanged, very little information about each other. But I really felt connected to her and I really thought she was really, really cool and interesting.

This was back when phone calls cost 10 cents a minute, so it was no small matter to engage in a long distance phone call. Yeah, so that's how I met my first partner, but I met my most recent partner, my wife of 20 years, through a boxing class. Not even my boxing class, but I was dating someone who was a boxer, and her sparring partner turns out I went to high school with, and we all, the three of us, went out to brunch together. And then my girlfriend moved out of the country and we broke up because she moved out of the country and like six months later Sarah and I reconnected and eventually after a long period of emailing fell in love. So you never know it happens all kinds of ways what a beautiful story is Sarah and your ex still friends no they were never really friends they were. They were just sparring partners, which is not really a friendship. In fact, if anything, it's kind of an enemy ship.

But no, my ex is doing great and has a great life and everything. It all worked out for everybody, but she was ready to move abroad and I think also probably ready to say goodbye to me. I'm a tough person to date, Chan, if we're being honest. I'm a lot. I'm a little, I'm just, I'm a lot. I have, I have, I was, especially then I was very heavy on the needs. I was not an easy partner. Um, I had, I had some growing up to do for sure. But into your credit, you were also there supporting their passion, you know, and you were dating

women who fought, which is very kickass and progressive. I still, my wife is still a boxer. She's very good. My son is also a very good boxer. I've got some, I'm the, of everybody in the family, it's me and Alice just cowering and everybody else is... And see, that's also, you know,'s also going back to baby's question, right? It's making sure that you just throw yourself into things that you're passionate about or things that you're interested in and you never know.

I'm also a very fan of dating within the, like that's a big debate sometimes of, do you date a friend, an ex's friend? Birds of a feather flock together, so if you were attracted to your ex, it's likely that you would be attracted to people who are surrounding them. And if anything, it's a compliment to your ex, like, I thought you

were great and wonderful. There was a couple of points that just didn't really make us align. But overall, the heart of who you are is good. And I think you pick good people like me. So I'm gonna pick someone else that you picked. Make sense. That's great. And I like the idea of having healthy breakups. I've never had one of myself, but I've heard about them a lot. Well, you and your ex is still in contact. So you guys figured it out. Oh, yeah. No, I mean, we're like Facebook friends.

We keep track of each other. I know that she's doing good. But yeah, we figured it out. And yeah, that's funny, though. Let's ask, I want to ask a question good. But yeah, we figured it out. And yeah, that's funny though. Let's ask, I wanna ask a question about a healthy breakup actually, since we're on the topic. This question is from Izzy who writes, Dear John and Shan, I recently went through my first healthy breakup ever. Woohoo, I guess, maybe, anyway, that fateful night,

which was also my birthday, another story. I heeded John's boss's advice and watched the movie Harvey. I'm a big fan of this movie Harvey that my boss told me to watch once when I was having what we used to call a nervous breakdown and it really like changed my life. Anyway, I enjoyed it as much I enjoyed it but it wasn't as quite as existential as I feared but are there any other breakup remedies or routines you can recommend that even if it's

dubious? Being a healthy loving breakup between two adults means that I'm in uncharted territory. Thank you Izzy. What are your, do you have any breakup routines or remedies or recommendations? I do, but you got to give the, because for anybody who, for anybody who doesn't know what the Harvey remedy was, what's the TLDR of that? Okay, so it's not really a remedy, but there's this movie Harvey. It was made in 1950. It was written by a woman named Mary Chase, and it's about a guy named Elwood P. Dowd, who's an alcoholic who sees a six-foot-tall invisible white rabbit who's his best friend and his name is Harvey. He talks to Harvey all the time and he says all kinds of really wise, helpful things like

he says, my mother used to tell me in this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart or oh so pleasant. For years I was smart. I recommend pleasant and All kinds of wise things like that. He also says nobody ever brings anything small into a bar But it's just I think what I found so helpful about it and find so helpful about it Is that it's a movie about a person who's mentally ill and I have you know, pretty serious mental illnesses It's a movie about somebody who's clearly mentally ill but who is also a valued and productive member of his social order. And that these things aren't mutually exclusive, that you can have a rich and full life and deep relationships while also living with mental illness. And even

though that movie is almost 80 years old now, I found it to be very revolutionary in that sense. I love that. Sounds so beautiful. I have to actually, I love, I've been watched, I've watched two great movies this week and I'm on a mission to try to continue That trend so I'm gonna you saw you saw the Minecraft movie. I didn't I really should with the kids my age Sinners and magazine dreams Oh Sinners was great. I haven't seen magazine dreams, but I loved magazine dreams I thought it was just such a It was a kind of movie where you watch where you're reminded that some people hold so much sadness that it's our responsibility to pick up some of it for

them. Like it's a sad movie. Like you're just watching a really just overall just burdened something Lee sad life and major to do such a good job acting in it. And it just made me kind of reflect on all the people that I know who I'm like, Oh, like how can I pick up a little bit of that for them? in it. And it just made me kind of reflect on all the people that I know who I'm like, oh, like, how can I pick up a little bit of that for them? Because it was heavy.

So it's a heavy watch, but maybe Harvey is too. Yeah, I mean, I think the hardest thing about going through sadness or going through the griefy, difficult, scary parts of life is going through them alone or feeling like you have to go through them alone or feeling like you're alone in that feeling and you're alone in that feeling because nobody else is going through what you're going through. Somebody I can't remember who once said, when your friend dies, you're on planet, my friend

died and everyone else is on planet Earth. You feel so isolated and separated from the rest of humanity. If somebody can pick up a little bit of that sadness for you and carry it with you, it does make a big difference. That actually would be a bit of my advice. I was going to give the heady advice because I'm good at those things, but Catherine Woodward has a book that's called Conscious Uncoupling, which was the trendy thing. When that couple broke up.

Gwyneth Paltrow, I believe, she consciously uncoupled. Yes. know, when that couple broke up. Gwyneth Paltrow, I believe, she consciously uncoupled. Yes, but it's a genius formula, and it takes you through, like, five different distinct stages. And the first stage is the negative bond. And essentially, that is, when you first get into a relationship with somebody, you go through positive disillusionment, where you have to ramp up all the positives

and minimize the negatives in order to justify to your brain, like, well, why am I choosing this human over all others? And the negative bond is the opposite where you have to ramp up the negatives and really like sort of reduce the positives. And this can be really difficult in today's day and age because social media is every human being's highlight reel of awesomeness. So when you're trying to justify a breakup and you still have access to that person's social media and you're just seeing how great they are and how much fun they're

having or how hot they look, it's difficult to create the negative bond. So one thing that I talked about in my newsletter this week actually is the importance of breakup buddies, which distinct friendship where you'd connect with somebody else who just wants to talk about the breakup because the average person probably doesn't and their bandwidth for doing so is like very slim. So if they're going through a breakup, they're like, great, I'll dump on you, you dump on me. We'll call each other every day.

We'll obsess over these like negative parts. I'll remind you why this person's crap. You remind me why they're crap. The hard thing about this relationship sometimes is that you often get out of the negative bond at different phases and so then you have to break up with your breakup buddy or your breakup buddy breaks up with you, which can come its own heartbreak in itself. That can be to your point about not going through it alone.

I think that that's a really powerful strategy. Although this wasn't really a question because this person was like, I did it right. So we just need to know what you did. That's a question back to you and congratulations. That's a great. Yeah, exactly. Congratulations on a healthy breakup. That's no easy. That's no easy task. That reminds me, Shannon, that today's podcast is brought to you by your breakup buddy, your breakup buddy. You may have to break up with them. Today's podcast is also brought to you by anonymous, whose name is now is about congratulations. Anonymous, whose name is now Isabel. Congratulations, Anonymous. You're no longer Anonymous. All right, Shan, I got a question

for you from Katie, who writes, Dear Shan and John, my boyfriend and I are moving in together in about a month and we're so excited. However, we have wildly different aesthetics. He said I could take the lead on picking things out for the apartment, but how do I go with that? I have a very cottage, floral, critter kind of decor style, and he likes futuristic neon sign type decor. Do you have any advice on how to merge these things, or do we end up having something cohesive that looks like a grandma's house themed nightclub? Do I just slowly buy things I like and wait for him to say something? Are we supposed to stifle our whimsy and becomes adults with a neutral home? Everyone wants an invite to the club cottage, Katie." Now, I went through this a little bit, Shan. I don't know if you've ever been through something similar. But when Sarah and I got married, first off, when Sarah and I met, so Sarah's a curator

of contemporary art, when Sarah and I met, I had nothing on my walls. I had blank walls. I didn't even know that you could put something on your walls. I didn't know that regular people could own art. I didn't know that there was art made by students available at student art fairs for like $20. I didn't know any of that, right? And so I had nothing on my walls and I lived on a futon and underneath the futon was all of my unpaid bills. That was kind of the vibe to give you a sense of my aesthetic. Then I met Sarah and Sarah had all of this beautiful art in her apartment. She had a bed with a proper, something called a duvet that I'd never even heard of before. I thought

you just had blankets or even maybe a comforter if you were fancy, but you certainly didn't have a duvet, which ends in a T. I was completely astonished by all of this fanciness, even though it wasn't expensive, it was just attentive, I guess. And what happened was that slowly, Sarah taught me to have a better aesthetic, specifically hers. So that's how we did it.

I love that. And this might, was there any pushback from you of like, no, white walls and futon on the ground is where it's at. No, like, I don't know. And I don't think I had as strong an opinion as Katie's partner does about like, uh, neon signs and futuristic design. I did always like clean lines. Like I've always liked, um, you know always like clean lines. I've always liked straight clean lines.

You can see in the background here, for those of you watching on Patreon, my windows, they have straight clean lines. I like a straight clean line. I like glass. I like a lot of glass. I like to be able to see outside. But other than that, I know I didn't have strong opinions when we met, but now I do. Now I have an aesthetic. It's just that I really think that Sarah kind of taught it to me. So you guys align most of the time, basically. You have a page. Now we align. She's like, me too. You're like, me too. And then she's like, exactly.

Yeah, although sometimes I pick out art that she wouldn't pick out and she picks out art that I wouldn't pick out. But we just kind of make space for each other in that way. I do have my space in the sense that there are spots in the house where I work that are more likely to have art that I like. There's a Frank Walter painting behind me, the Antiguan painter who painted very small. He often would paint the back of a cigarette pack. I really, really like his art. He would make these beautiful tiny landscapes. And, you know, so that's the kind of thing that I tend to like is like tiny little paintings. And then Sarah tends to like bigger stuff. But in general, no, our art, it lines up well enough that we're both able to, to, to, to work with each other, I guess.

This is the benefit of asking this question to people who've lived a little bit longer. One of the ah-has I had recently about relationships is that you just don't realize until a little bit later that so many of the things that you made into an issue in the early stages that aren't actually a part of your core values of what actually matter in partnership will just work itself out with time, right? Like I've lived in how many places my husband, maybe five or six places.

And now we live in a spot where I have my own office that's completely differently styled than his. He has his own space is completely different style than mine. They're not even cousins. And that's okay. But when we first moved into to you know we lived in a studio apartment together for a second and there's so much different compromises that you have to make and it's short-term pain for long-term gain

so we actually had like neon signs and then rugs on the ground like that was his thing like it was like kind of like throws as art which I thought was so tricky and you just have a mix mash of a bunch of different elements and personalities, because what's most important is that somebody feels like this is their home. Like that's what it's actually the value system. And then you'll grow hopefully into bigger spaces where you can have that feeling

and also completely lean into your aesthetic. But in the beginning, what really matters is, I mean, a clean home, Let's just be clear about that. There's certain things you probably shouldn't be compromising on. But I think aesthetic and vibes is kind of one of those where it's like, give each other whatever you can afford a corner, a wall, a section or drawer. You just have to know that somewhere you get to live life your way and somebody accepts and embraces you because of that.

I think it's a really good point. Like overwhelmingly, the most important thing in my experience is is that sharing of core values or that being able to form core values that you can share together over the course of many years. I think that is super, super important. I also think though that to some extent there has to be a making space for the other person. You know person. That's part of sharing space with someone is making space for them. I'll give you one example. I do that very ADHD thing where I leave clothes that are sort of half dirty or half worn on a chair or something in case I need to wear them again,

in case I decide that they're still good for tomorrow. Sarah would never do that. That would never enter Sarah's imagination. But she makes space for me to do it as long as it's in a controlled way. It doesn't spread across the entire floor, but if it's in a controlled way, it's okay. I think she actually calls it tin pan alley. That's what she calls it, the alley by my bed, where there's books that pile up, and right now my backpack's there,

and there's some shoes there, and there's a shirt that I might wear later tonight if we go out, things like that. But I think you do have to make space for somebody's way of living, part of which is aesthetics, and part of which is just their way of living, which can take some adjusting for sure.

But in general, I find that if you can find a way toward mutual generosity, a way toward being generous with the person, assuming the best in them, then it's a lot less annoying than it would otherwise be. Can I have another thought, John, based on what you said I think is important? Michelle Obama on her podcast said that hers and Barack's relationship, they regarded it like a basketball team. When you're on a basketball team, there's not necessarily like a leader and a follower,

and everybody has to play every position, right? The point guard has to be able to shoot free throws and three points and dunk if need be. But at the same time, people know where their strengths are. You know who is the best rebounder, right? You know who's the best defender. So I do think you do have to incorporate sort of that teamwork element,

but you should also know who is the Sarah and who is the John, right? So if you spend more time looking at, you know, interior design magazines and you go to antique shops on the weekend. You're actually investing the time in it. Your partner does have to respect that, hey, this is your strength. This is your area to shine.

I definitely am not on the court with you, but I know who to pass the ball to. Right. Yeah, I like that metaphor a lot. One of the metaphors that we use sometimes is that we try to think of the relationship as an object that requires maintenance, whether that's a car or a home or whatever, that we have to share and that has to fit both of us. It has to make room

for both of us. Sometimes we talk about it as a Winnebago, like a RV that we have to maintain and deal with. That partly means you got to pump out the sewage. It's not always pleasant dealing with it, but if you don't deal with it, if you don't do the maintenance, you don't have a good Winnebago. Anything that puts you on the same team, I think, is really a good metaphor because that's what it is in the end. You have to be on a team. And that doesn't just go for romantic relationships, right? That's any core relationship. If you have a relationship with your roommate, like

I had a roommate for six years before I met Sarah and we moved in together. And, you know, my relationship with that roommate was super, super close. I mean, we're still best friends, but like we were, you know, incredibly, incredibly close and we had to make space for each other as part of that. We had to be on the same team together. All right. Let me ask you one more question before we get to the all important news from AFC Wimbledon, my favorite fourth tier English soccer team, Shan. I realized, by the way, that I didn't say your last name earlier, which makes it impossible for people to Google

you. So I'm going to say your last name. Totally fine though. Do you know what, actually, I'm kind of going through a little bit of a crisis on this. Oh boy, tell me about it. So tell me about that. Well, my stage name is Shan Boudram. Right. And that's my maiden name, but I'm married.

I've been married now for seven years. And my last name is Brady. I have two kids. And I've been with my husband for 10 years. We work together. He is like, I could tear up at any moment just thinking about my partner, my lover. And I love that because it fuels the work that I do

and allows me to feel very confident about asking people to devote their time and to learn about it and to give themselves to this area because it can give back so much to you. So I feel so deeply about my partner. And if I'm very honest, cause we're enough into the podcast now where hopefully people in my family don't listen to this, but you know, my family, it's, they haven't been, they're not as present or supportive as, you know, my, my husband

is so kind of like, why am I continuing to carry on and champion this last name where the last name with my kids and my partner and my legal last name, you know, like that's one that... So I'm just sort of in this conflicting, so I'm just kind of going by Shan for now. They're both key last names, Shan B, you know? There we go. Yeah, they're both, we'll stick with Shan.

That's great. I have a friend who just goes by Cree, who acted in the Turtles All the Way Down movie. When I asked Cree what last name I should use for them, they were like, none. I was like, fair enough. Totally. What advice would you give to me? I mean, that's a tough one.

Sarah kind of regrets taking my name. I don't know if regret's a strong word, but I think she, I mean, professionally, she's known as Sarah Urus Green, so she's known by her maiden name and my name. She has a very close relationship with her parents, so I think it's a little different on that level and that probably is different. I would recommend that you go with the name that feels real to you and not worry too much about whatever the professional implications are because the world will get over that very quickly. Thank you. Thank you for that.

All right. One last question before I get to tell you about my fourth tier English soccer team. It's a sad one. We've had some happy questions. We've had some sad questions. This is the saddest question of them all. It's about a dog. It's from Chloe. Dear John and Chan, long-time listener, first-time writer, I have a bit of a sad one today. I'd really love some advice. At the beginning of last year, I ended a nine-year relationship.

We sold our house and he ended up keeping our dog, Sully. Sully is a two-year-old miniature schnauzer and the love of my absolute life and losing him is the worst thing to ever happen to me and honestly destroyed me. I officially handed him over in October and I haven't seen him since and I think of him every day and regret not fighting harder to keep him. Most days I get bio-K but then there are nights when it gets to me and I often dream of him. I'd love some advice on how to deal with what feels like the grief of a pet that's very much still alive.

Thank you Chloe." Before Shan answers, I would just say that you've identified exactly what it is to me, which is grief. It's a sense of loss, and it's a profound loss. It's a loss that it sounds like you can't rectify in any way, because it just doesn't seem like you can have a relationship with this person, and that means that right now you can't have a relationship with this person and that means that right now you can't have a relationship with the dog either. Sometimes I think what we need to hear, what I need to hear anyway is that the grief is the correct response.

That sadness is the correct response to that situation and that it's absolutely okay to feel grief stricken. Mm-hmm. Interestingly, this is a topic that is coming up on my podcast. I talk about sex and relationships, but I spoke with the singer, Alessia Cara, who is often consumed by a feeling of grief and not just for she's lost, but the idea of the potential of the fact that we are all going to lose everything. But I've been talking about it a lot and asking people just about how they feel or, you know, what has been some of the helpful, you know, things that people have said to them in a

time of grief. And what you just said reminded me of something that stuck out to me that I will say to other people when they're grieving, and that is you don't have to get over this. Right. There is that urge to like get over it and to be past it and to be on the other side of something. And that's just not the right. That's just not how it is. You don't necessarily get on the other side of something. And that's just not the right, that's just not how it is. You don't necessarily get on the other side of it.

I mean, I lost a close friend of mine when I was in high school and I never got over it. I'm still not over it. You know, like I get older and she doesn't get to know what it's like to be 47. She doesn't get to know what it's like to have two kids. Like she doesn't get to know what it's like to be 47. She doesn't get to know what it's like to have two kids. She doesn't get to, and that remains sad. That doesn't stop being sad. Yeah.

Let's talk about soccer. Let's talk about soccer. Shan, I'm a big fourth tier English soccer fan. I got a team that's called AFC Wimbledon. I love them so much. I hope that you love something stupid and meaningless the way that I love AFC Wimbledon. I hope that there's something in your life that's beautiful and means nothing except that you give it meaning because that is what I have in AFC Wimbledon. And they reached the end of the season, Shan, and they had to win or tie their last game to make it into the

playoffs. The fourth through seventh teams go into a playoff and then one of them emerges from that playoff and gets to go up to the third tier of English soccer. That's always been my real dream, Shannon, is to be a fan of a third tier English soccer team. In England, you can go up or down the leagues. You can get promoted or relegated. We were good this year, but were we good enough to make the playoffs? Well, it all came down to the last day and we had to win or tie against Grimsby Town.

I know what you're saying. Sounds like Grimsby Town is a made up place, but no, it's came down to the last day and we had to win or tie against Grimsby Town. I know what you're saying. Sounds like Grimsby Town is a made up place, but no, it's a real place in England. It's on the coast. They're big fans of fish and the team gave out 2,000 blow up fish before the game. So all these kids were like hitting each other with their inflatable fishes before the game. It was high drama. Grimsby needed to win the game in order to make the playoffs. We needed to win or tie. It was a very tense first half. Nothing happened. No goals. A couple good saves by our brilliant, lovely goalkeeper, Owen Goodman, the sweetest man I've ever met, I think. The great thing about fourth-year

English soccer, by the way, Shannon, is that you can be friends with the players anyway. Make it to the second half. And a little bit of context here. There's this fellow who plays on our team named Sam Hutchinson. He's like 45 years old. He's the oldest professional soccer player in the world. He calls himself an old war horse and he never scores goals. One thing about this guy, he's not going to score a goal.

He hasn't scored a goal in three years. He never scores. Well, he scored. He scored for us early in the second half. We held onto that one no lead. We made the playoffs. Now we get to play Notts County in the playoffs. If we win that game, we get to play at Wembley in front of 80,000 people, England's national soccer stadium. I'll be there. No pressure, but you're welcome. The whole world is welcome. It's going to be incredible if we make it. But we've got to win these two games against Notts County. So, that's the situation. AFC Wimbledon stunningly, wondrously in the playoffs in League Two on their way if they win this game, if they beat Notts County on their way to Wembley.

Wow. How exhilarating. Oh my God. I can't even tell you. I watched the second half from behind the couch. That's how stressed out I was. I was literally hiding behind the couch, listening to the commentary, getting text messages from all my Wimbledon supporting friends. All of us terrified together, but it was so exhilarating. And then when we finally won, I had to go pick up the garden plants with my mom. And I like shaking and my mother was like, are you all right? And I was like, yeah, mom, I'm great, I'm great.

Everything is fine. I just had so much adrenaline flowing through me, Shan, it was incredible, the feeling. This actually makes me think of the last question about death and I don't have a thing like that that I just love that's senseless and outside of me. And I did for a briefest of moments, I'm from Toronto and the Toronto Raptors made the playoffs second round,

I think the year was like 2013 or 14. It could have been a little bit before that, but I was so invested in this. And when they lost, I was like, I am never going through this again. I will never lost, I was like, I am never going through this again. I will never tie so much emotional depth to a thing I have no control over. I don't reap the benefits. Like I just get all the pain. And you're here to feel, you're here to experience, you're here to express, you're here to grieve, you're here to love, you're here to have orgasms and you're here to experience great pain. So I think the things that allow you to do that, while you can get to kind of know in the back of your mind that it's just for funsies, I think that sounds really cool.

Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, it is a little weird to tie the quality of your week unto the exploits of 24 year old boys who live, you know, an ocean away from you and all that stuff. But I think it's more that, it's more, it's the purity of feeling, it's the knowledge that we are here to be, not just to feel all that stuff, but we're here to feel all of that stuff and to feel lots of it in community, to feel the togetherness

in those big experiences. That's something that Wimbledon gives me that I'm very grateful for. We always talk about it at the end of the podcast year. We don't have any news from Mars this week, unfortunately, but Hank will be back next week with plenty of news from Mars. It'll be thrilling. I mean, I'm sure Mars has been up to things that we can't even imagine without Hank. Well, is it appropriate for me to say congratulations to you?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Are you kidding? I kicked every ball. Congrats. You did great. And good luck. Thank you. I appreciate it. I'll let you know how it goes. Fingers crossed for the playoffs, but at least. And good luck. Thank you. I appreciate it.

I'll let you know how it goes. Fingers crossed for the playoffs, but at least we're in them. At least we're in it with a chance. That feeling that hope is still alive is such a powerful, powerful feeling. It's a reminder that hope is always still alive. Hope is not always alive in football, but it is always alive in the world. So yeah, it was a pretty magical feeling. I'm not going to lie.

Well, Shan, thank you so much for being part of, first off, for being part of Crash Course X Ed. It's such an extraordinary series. I'm so proud of it. And I'm so proud of the team that works on it with you. And I think that y'all have just done an amazing job. If you haven't seen the series, please check it out. It's at youtube.com slash Crash Course.

But also thank you for being my co-host today. It's been really fun and you're full of great wisdom. Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm actually wearing a shirt that said, I haven't lost my virginity because I never lose. And I'll pass this on to you as maybe a good luck charm. But this is a nod to Crash Course. We wear tons of great shirts. And to the point you just made, I want to say a huge thank you to all everybody, the writers, the animators, the editors. And what a phenomenal project and a dream come true to be a part of in a legacy project. That I feel grateful to be a small speck of a contribution

because the ocean that Crash Course provided is just so immense and incredible. So shout out to the team. Shout out to your team and shout out to you. And thanks to everybody who watched. That's lovely of you to say. And it's so true that, you know, Crash Course, a lot of times the hosts get all the credit and the hosts are not the main characters of Crash Course. I can say that as a host. There's so many people who work hard on Crash Course from curriculum consultants to writers to animators to editors. And it's just an extraordinary team and they do awesome Course from curriculum consultants to writers to animators to editors. It's just an extraordinary team and they do awesome work and I'm really, really proud to make stuff with them.

Dear Hank and John is edited by Chris and Kiko. We're mixed by Joseph Tunamanish. Our marketing specialist is Brooke Shotwell. We are produced by Rosiana Holtz-Ruhoffs and Hannah West. Our executive producer is Seth Radley. Our editorial assistant is Deboki Chakrabarti. The music that you're hearing now in the beginning of the podcast is by the great Gunnarolla.

And as we say in my hometown, don't forget to be awesome. Shan, thank you so much. That was so fun.