Decoding the Gurus - Destiny: Debate King and/or Degenerate?

Episode Date: April 22, 2024

In this episode, Matt and Chris dive deep into the world of online streamers, focusing on the pioneering and controversial figure Steven Bonell II, better known as Destiny (AKA Mr Borelli). As seasoned explorers of sense-making jungles, Petersonian crystalline structures, and mind-bending labyrinths in Weinstein World, they thought they were prepared for anything. However, the drama-infused degeneracy of the streamer swamps proves to offer some new challenges.Having previously dipped their toes in these waters by riding with Hasan on his joyous Houthi pirate ship (ignoring the screams of the imprisoned crew below decks), Matt and Chris now strip down to their decoding essentials and plunge head-first into streamer drama-infested waters as they search for the fabled true Destiny.Destiny is a popular live streamer and well-known debater with a long and colourful online history. He is also known for regularly generating controversy. With a literal mountain of content to sift through, there was no way to cover it all. Instead, Matt and Chris apply their usual decoding methods to sample a selection of Destiny's content, seeking to identify any underlying connective tissue and determine if he fits the secular guru mould.In so doing, they cover a wide range of topics, including:Destiny's background and rise to prominence in the streaming worldHow much of his brain precisely is devoted to wrangling conservatives?What's it like to live with almost no private/public boundaries?What are the ethics of debating neo-Nazis?The nature of the Destiny's online communityWhether murder is a justified response to DDOS attacks?Whether they succeed or fail in their decoding will be for the listeners to judge, but one thing is certain: if this is your first exposure to the streaming world, you are in for a bit of a ride.LinksThe Institute of Art and Ideas: Destiny and the new world of Internet politics | Steven Bonnell full interviewEnd of the Leftist Arc? - Destiny Addresses the Recent DramaIced Coffee Hour: Destiny on Debating Ben Shapiro, Toxic Wokeism and Getting DivorcedHelpful Reddit thread with a bunch of relevant videos and summariesDocumentary on Destiny Lore by Dingo: The Steven "Destiny" Bonnell II IcebergDestiny's Positions page on his dedicated WikiDestiny's ManifestosMrGirl's anti-Destiny 'Report'

Hello and welcome to Decoding the Gurus, the podcast where an anthropologist and a psychologist listen to the greatest minds the world has to offer and we try to understand what they're talking about i'm matt brown a psychologist from australia with me is chris cavanaugh the anthropologist from japan formerly belfast g'day chris've got a big decoding coming up today, don't we? A white whale. A white whale. We have so many white whales that they're becoming relatively common these days. Many fish in the sea, is that what you're saying? Many fish. We just need to dangle our little hook in there and up they come. Yeah, there are people that it feels like we should have covered earlier and Destiny might fit in that category. But there's a lot of people, Matt.

That's the thing. There's a lot of people in this world. There's a lot of people. Many people. Some of the best people. Yeah. So, yeah, you know, just to remind people, for those perhaps Destiny fans that are tuning

in for the first time remember on decoding the gurus we decode online public figures intellectuals uh influences people with a big public profile just because you're covered on decoding the gurus doesn't mean that you're evil that's not a flat category of bad people we've covered carl sagan we certainly call him a secular guru uh come on sean carroll we love sean carroll he scored zero on the garometer you love sean carroll i like i do yeah so it remains to be seen um but look there's so much to talk about with destiny and destiny is a streamer chris um he is a streamer now many people in our audience are boomers like me and don't really understand what's the deal with streaming who are they what do they do

streamers america deserve 9-11 dude fuck it i'm saying it academics can they make a comment about canceling culture streamers yeah please explain this to me so i can tell you how fucking stupid you are academics and when i'm talking about that anagogic in and out of the imaginal augmentation of our ontological depth perception that's what i mean by imaginal faithfulness enlightening stuff you'll provide some interesting lessons for us today decoding the gurus streamers and academic season this is going to be really interesting yeah well one thing matt just to say you might be optimistic that a significant amount of Destiny's audience

will listen to your podcast. I know some amount of them will, but I feel that without the visual, that it's not so appealing. But in any case... No one's playing a computer game at the moment, so that will confuse them. Yeah, yeah, that's it. Although, well, even there's things to be

said there matt destiny has discovered adderall and is less prone to using computer games now to stimulate himself on his streams but there we go so yeah for those who are unaware of this entire phenomenon of streamers or or just like vaguely familiar with it so it's what it sounds like people who stream content and obviously that has become more common and easier to do as internet speeds and whatnot have increased but destiny was doing it a long time ago he was one of the first streamers and he streamed originally on a platform called justin tv which is now twitch streaming and at that time he was streaming a game called starcraft 2 and so basically what these are, are people streaming their video while there's like a little chat box and people can comment and interact. But it's not just video games.

There are channels which are just dedicated to politics, to commentating on news. There are channels where people are streaming IRL in real life, where they go out to locations and interact with people. Or people are doing variety streams. There's all sorts of, there's hot tub streamers, people in bikinis streaming. There's all different types of things. But what tends to mark them out, I think from the stuff that maybe more

mainstream or older more mainstream people would consume is that streamers tend to stream for significant portions of time multiple hours you know and they interact with the chat as they're doing other stuff so it's kind of a multitasking achievement in a way because like they're playing a game they're reading streams and reacting to it and now increasingly other people will call in and they'll have a discussion with them but destiny was doing the gaming side of that and then moved into politics political commentary often while playing video games so if you watched many of his streams you will see that he is depends on the venue and how serious he is about in any case he is often streaming video games while he's talking or debating with other people. So yeah, it's kind of content for the ADHD generation.

And he also deserves credit for not just being a pioneer in streaming video game content, but also in politics streaming. He was, I think, if not the person responsible for creating that space, at least a very significant figure in its emergence. So now there are many political streamers and we covered one of them recently, Hasan. But Destiny was a pioneer in that area. Now, I think you told me that Hasan Piker as well as Vosch both got their start.

They started off as fans or something interacting with Destiny's audience. Yeah, Vosch came out of Destiny's audience and Hasan Piker was in his audience, but Hasan Piker came up from the Young Turks. So he started out in the Young Turks because his uncle is Cenk Uygur right but as he branched out from the young Turks he got involved with Destiny's community and was doing you know collaborations and whatnot and the Peony and Destiny stream so he had a profile before he was in Destiny's like community but but yes there was a lot of overlap they were on the same team and various debates you know they were discussing issues so yeah like there's a lot of

big name left-wing political streamers that have emerged from destiny's community or had like significant contact with it um that might be the way to put it yeah so hasan and destiny very different political views and certainly not fans of each other at the moment nevertheless they are similar in the sense that they are these political streamers i guess primarily these days commentators they they play computer games. Yes, sometimes. But they also talk to politics, have debates, and are commentators on basically everything. So I guess that's what puts them into our remit.

That's why they're in our ballpark, Chris. Well, I think we can see how much of the guru dynamics apply, but like streamers and influencers are probably the leading front in parasocial dynamics and manipulation might be a bad way to put it, but like there's a lot of audience interaction. There's a lot of blurring of boundaries that, you know, isn't there in traditional media as much and yeah so that like i think there are reasons that you could see you know the kind of dynamics that we see with secular gurus at play in that arena and you definitely do see people like voicing opinions across a whole bunch of different topics and offering

hot takes and that so you know i think that it depends on the character but there are people with extreme positions there are people who who have no political takes right they're just there to offer you know entertainment and there are people with their own weirdo bespoke philosophies and what and there's a lot of weirdos that are involved with destiny or orbiting around destiny and like weirdos might sound disparaging but i'm sorry i've been consuming a lot of destiny's content and there are a lot of unhinged strange people that he interacts with and when i say that might sound disparaging, but I mean people who like have released supposedly artistic videos of them masturbating under their own volition to the internet.

And, you know, just a lot of, a lot of talk about people threatening suicide or have they advocated for pedophilia you know we played the clip about vosh and his horse cock lollicon fetish or whatever but that is that the point is that's actually relatively mild by most of the standards so as we'll see so there's just a lot of unhinged degeneracy going on and including you know no judgment no judgment chris no judgment but it is unhinged no judgment but there's there's nazis and shit and as we'll see and that and it's just it's yeah a lot of it is to my mind needlessly dramatic and you know just attention seeking or like you know 20 somethings talking

about their political philosophies which they developed last week and like i don't care so well we'll get into the clips in a moment i guess but just final thoughts for me about just the general context of this sphere streamer sphere is is one i guess there are those different angles to it like one it's just like mild entertainment someone's playing computer game and just talking as they do it another hand you've got all of the political commentary social commentary debating issues that is going on so that's another angle but like you say at the same time there is those blurring of boundaries between the community and the people broadcasting and a lot of there's a lot of interactions a lot

of um the personal life overlaps a fair bit and um you know i don't know if it's fair to say would you agree that i i had the feeling that that aspect of it is a little bit like reality TV, but for the next generation, it, there is, it is a bit like the dramas that go on on love Island or something. And it can be, there's a lot of drama. There's a lot of,

there's a lot of people having sex who were various people that they're making content with or fo falling out and bridges being burned like there's a there's a specific nomenclature with destiny about like the bridges burning or bridges being manned like feuding with different people and stuff but it's it's not just destiny that does this it's kind of the whole uh streamer ecosystem yeah and i think it's partly because of the the nature of the content means that one thing which people like to do is reaction videos you know like playing someone else's content and commenting on that and i think by the way we do chris yeah yeah well we do avoid the video so it doesn't, like, that's the thing, you know.

There's a difference to it, one, when you do it every day, and two, like, audio podcasts are in a different category of things. But there's podcast drama as well. The Daily Wire is currently having drama with Candice Owens and Ben Shapiro. So, like, this happens in Pundit World, but just as we'll see, the drama is like of a slightly different timbre whenever it's in streamer land. And the one thing I'll also say,

I've listened to an insane amount of content for this episode. Like I often listen to a lot of content for the people that we cover, but with Destiny, I've listened to a lot of content for the people that we cover but with destiny i've listened to a lot maybe even by his you went above and beyond this time chris i did i did like it could have been over 100 hours of stuff that i've listened to but in any case the outcome of that is one thing i'm very acutely aware of is that destiny you know a bit

like everyone but in his case perhaps more extreme than in others he has different presentations depending on the venue that he's in and the audience that he's speaking to and he's quite open about this we'll see that he makes this clear himself. But it means that if you took some of his content from like a mainstream interview, because he's increasingly being interviewed by Piers Morgan or appeared with Ben Shapiro or, you know, kind of high profile media or whatever, like the mainstream media, he's often on his best behavior. and he comes across extremely reasonable, doesn't use edgy terms or whatever, and kind of presents in a particular way. When he's on the stream, again, it's different and it depends who he's talking to.

You know, if he's talking friendly with someone, he'll be different if he's interacting with the stream if he is debating on you know like a panel with alex jones or with red pilled people yeah it's all it's different as well so the reason i mentioned this is that the content that we select could give quite different perspectives like if we only took some of his recent interviews from mainstream media, and we are going to cover a bunch of the stuff there, you would get a different perspective than if we covered his streaming content

with like a red pill, Nick Fuentes character, or some drama stream about him debating with various orbiters. So that means that in order to properly contextualize him, it feels that we need to cover a broad spectrum of stuff. So on the show, we are often focusing like on a single piece of content or two pieces of content. And that is what we are doing today. content or two pieces of content and that is what we are doing today we're taking a piece of content which was focused more towards the streaming audience and then a piece of content which was focused towards like a more mainstream audience but i also have a bunch of other clips which will

provide contextual information and i think it's important to go through them because it like information and i think it's important to go through them because it like any single one i think could give like a misleading presentation on its own yeah yeah definitely is multifaceted produced a huge amount of content so it presents a bit of a challenge for our usual methodology so yeah i mean this will work but yeah just to remind people that what we try not to do is to go digging and cherry picking and finding like the worst things that someone has said and just relying on that. And likewise, going in the other direction,

just finding good stuff. In general, with someone like Jordan Peterson, say, or Eric Weinstein, you can pick a random piece of content and it will be pretty representative of who they are. I think this could be somewhat true of Destiny, but but like you said he's a multifaceted character he's been doing this for a long time produced untold hours of content and the content is very different depending on the context so we're going to yeah try to be fair about it yeah but like with hassan pecker there's a couple of clips which are infamous and that are

part of the reason that you know there's controversy or whatever and the most recent one i'll just play here this is destiny talking about gaza and this is from before the october 7th attacks so this is on the one of the you know stream things that people are playing games or destiny at least is playing a game or somebody else i don't know anyway listen to this um honestly uh i'm pro genocide like it's not it sounds really shitty but like i think that israel should just drop its fucking borders about where it is now and basically palestinians can go live in another place that's that's really shitty, but that's about where I'm at.

You just think the Palestinians should just pack up and Native American the fuck out of there? The problem is that it seems like there is a hugely general hostility to Jewish people across really the entire world, definitely the Middle East. So the problem is that as you weaken Israel's ability for Jewish people

to live there, it seems like there is a because there's a lot of different organizations across the Middle is that as you weaken Israel's like ability for Jewish people to live there, it seems like there is a, because there's a lot of different organizations across the Middle East that are highly invested in the destruction of Israel. So that's like a really rough thing too. So it seems like if Israel is forced to make concessions to Palestinians, it threatens Jewish people's ability to have a homeland. And if, yeah, so I don't know. It's really true. Truthfully, the answer is like, there's no good answer. Um, it's hard's no good answer um it's hard um yeah it's hard it's a really really complicated situation

it seems like appeasing either end basically means like kind of the destruction of the other end if you give jewish people what they want palestinians are essentially permanently cocked out of what they feel is their rightful homeland and if you give palestinians what they want then probably a lot of jewish people are going to die so you know saying that you're pro-genocide never a good look never a good look and people have focused on this clip because destiny has since gone on to become quite active in debating and discussing the conflict in gaza but me, this clip illustrates the tendency towards edgy comments, because the subsequent discussion is relatively not so extreme, right? He's saying that these are two incompatible solutions and there would be issues. But it doesn't undo that you just said, like, I'm pro-genocide.

That's the reason that this clip got kind of shared around everyone. And a lot of Destiny fans were saying, well, this is out of context. But the point is, find me the clip of you or I or various other people saying, we're pro-genocide, right? You won't find that because yeah we're not gonna say yeah it's part of the issue though chris that like we don't record 12 hours a day day in day out free associating like for instance i i watched a different content from you from destiny just just random destiny content one one thing i watched recently was um him interviewing another

influencer type guy um he's his name's ryan mcbeth he's okay he's kind of like a mid-tier like military guy comments on military things and he actually gets a bit drunk during that interview he doesn't acquit himself that well i've seen other stuff from him is better but in that interview destiny he basically does the he's like an nbc anchor basically he's asking reasonably good questions you don't hear anything controversial in the hours that he talks to this guy so yeah i don't know well yeah and i'll just highlight a clip which is kind of contradicting of the image that he's purely an apologist for the IDF. So recently there was an attack where the IDF blew up some Eid convoy. I can't remember the organization exactly, but anyway, it was a humanitarian convoy and it was targeted by the idf right and the idf gave

an explanation for it and and destiny has been very strongly pro-israel throughout the conflict but he he covered the statement and here's a clip of him talking about that that idea of like oh it's a chaotic environment coming from f-16s or whatever or whatever planes they fly to bomb this was not like a key like the hostage situation where the three hostages were shot. That was a chaotic moment. And I can I I'm way more sympathetic towards that in that moment for this targeted airstrike for people that you had intel on ahead of time on a pre-approved humanitarian aid route shooting convoy vehicles. No, that excuse doesn't work there. That doesn't cut it. Do you think a Hamas member? Do you think that they thought a Hamas member was on board again? That doesn't cut it. Do you think a Hamas member,

do you think that they thought a Hamas member was on board? Again, even if a Hamas member was on board, that can't be the calculation. We're going to go ahead and blow up three humanitarian aid vehicles with six, I need to get the number right, six or nine foreign nationals on it because a Hamas member was on board. That can't be the calculation.

That's, it's too much. Even if there were, even if there was a Hamas member on board, the entire world and probably even Israel is not accepting that, like the population won't accept that proportionality that's unhinged you can't that can't you can't do that unless it's literally like king hamas himself you can't there's no way you can do that that's insane yeah so there he's sounding if you didn't know anything about destiny then you could well assume that the person speaking there was very much a critic of israel perhaps

even pro-palestinian yeah i think that's an interesting distinction i mean we've spoken to people recently chris who who are very much pro-israel in this on this issue oh sam harris i was being i was being delicate you were being arch but um you know not even referring to sam harris in particular but just looking at the discourse it does seem like a lot of people are firmly in one camp or firmly in the other camp and one thing you see almost uh ubiquitously is that they will minimize or make excuses for or change the topic or whatever on on anything that sort of makes the one side look bad. So I think perhaps one thing with Destiny is that he seems to dive in as quite happy to punch in both directions.

Yeah, I think people would argue that he does engage in like, you know, some apologetics for Israeli actions. You know, it all depends on where you are, how you judge what is actually going on there and how much you trust statements from different sources. On that same stream, Matt, we heard Hasan interacting with his audience and getting annoyed with them whenever they

were challenging his position. This does sound a little bit similar at points to when Destiny gets annoyed with his audience. So listen, a little bit similar at points to when Destiny gets an audio of his audience. So listen, this is from the same stream. We shouldn't want the war to stop. You should want the elimination of Hamas. If you want anything less than Hamas being removed as the administrator to the Gazan region, you are a pedophile who is jerking off to dying

Palestinians because you think it supports whatever perverted political narrative that you have for hating America. That's literally it. There is no other rational basis, or you're anti-Semitic and you hate Jews, I guess. Maybe you're crazy Muslim or whatever, or super anti-Semitic and you, for

some other reason, you can be a Christian and be a Nazi, I guess, right? That's the only, there's no other option there if you support hamas remaining as the administrator here it's because you are dropping fat loads of thick cum okay all over your fucking carpet at night watching palestinians die but it gives you something to tweet about every night my that is what we might refer to as loaded rhetoric. In this case, very loaded. And I think also that clip highlights that that's not the kind of commentary that you're going to hear from Ben Shapiro or Jordan Peterson or whatever. They're not going to be talking about people spunking fat loads on their carpet

over dead infants, right? So Destiny doesn't mind engaging in that, like, really heated dismissal if he feels like it's justified. So, like, in that case, he's basically arguing there's no principled position that can lead to supporting Hamas remaining in power and then essentially characterizing anybody that would argue that as being a pedophile somebody that has to be some dead children or whatever but it's all it's for rhetorical effect but like yeah that that is illustrative of like interacting with the audience in a very harsh way and characterizing positions which

differ as completely amoral like the i don't think that's steel manning the kind of position yeah i mean i could but you know i guess you're talking about hamas the organization perhaps as opposed to look i can do a better job i'm no fan of hamas right but like i can see that people could argue that removing hamas will lead to a political vacuum which will actually just empower more extremists and lead to a worse outcomes for israel and that didn't require me jacking off to dead children or being an anti-american you know ideologue so that's what i mean you can take him as simply arguing against the worst version of the kind of tanky left which is who i think he's aimed at but the rhetoric is very strong

the rhetoric is colorful um i just i mean i sound like i'm making excuses here but i used to play a game called subspace back in the day it was one of the very first multiplayer games we could actually type and text other players and there would be maybe 100 200 people playing and the culture in that game in terms of the absolutely disgusting language that everybody used, I think will mainly play. And in fact, I found myself and my brother too, we would just find ourselves participating in it, in the same kind of thing. Like it was all ironic and tongue in cheek and all that stuff.

But at some point, I just stopped and went, hang on, probably the people I'm playing with are like 14 years old or something. What am I doing? But I guess my point is that internet subcultures have different norms. Yeah, edgy lingo. Yeah. Yeah. And being edgy is a component of it.

It is absolutely the case. But this is a point like, Destiny's not going to drop that kind of language on his interview with jordan peterson but on the stream he will and just one more clip about kind of chastising the audience the highlight streamer dynamics the difference is that we aren't providing military support to hamas yes you are you retard what are you talking about the gaza strip gets more humanitarian aid than any other region of the world per capita. What do you mean you're providing support for them? How do you think the leaders get fucking rich?

By reselling a whole bunch of shit that goes into the country. Why do you think these people are in Qatar in $20,000 private plane jets in $1,000? What do you mean we're not providing any money to Hamas? You're retarded. Just because only certain types of supplies go in there doesn't mean you're not funding the military that's doing what they're doing. How do you think they have the money to build all the tunnels? How do you think they have the money to build all the tunnels how do you have the

money to get all the guns what are you talking about like jesus i said military support i'm gonna permaban you so you've got all the time in the world i want you to go online and google fungibility of money go look it up be a smarter person for it i'll see you in five years good luck yeah so i think the reason you're playing these clips is not so much about the topic at hand but rather to illustrate i guess the dynamic that at least at least sometimes exists the point is not to say that's the normal interaction it isn't but just like the simo hassan is not always going off on a huge rant at his audience like that you're all fucking fascist right like that doesn't happen all the time but this kind of thing does happen and there again i understand the frustration because like what destiny was talking about on that stream was he's arguing

against people essentially presenting israel as they would intentionally want to blow up air trucks, knowing that they're air trucks because they're, you know, like an evil government that just wants Palestinian people to starve and die. So like, they don't even care that's an air truck. And he's saying that's a stupid position, because it's counterproductive for in so many ways, even if they wanted that targeting air trucks is going to get them just in trouble from international as you saw what what happened right in the backlash to that so he's reacting to that but in so doing it felt to me like the person commenting there was trying to say right but you know the west is supporting israel financially militarily and then desney like deflects that on

to right but gaza is receiving it but gaza is receiving yes it does receive aid from you know international sources but like a lot of its stuff comes from iran and you know various things are like i think the person commenting has a more valid argument and destiny presents it as and then he kind of like it is engaging in rhetoric about to be like look how rich the people are so you don't think they're getting any money and it's like well that's not the exact argument right surely the the argument is that we militarily support Israel directly so we're more culpable. The US this is. That's right, this is why Israel has F-35s and Hamas does not. Yeah, no, I take your point. The point that the person in the audience was making, it was almost certainly a more reasonable

one than the one that Destiny demolished um so yeah and and you know there was a five-year ban right this is one of the things that can happen right like because you know little chat box or whatever is going and then you say right i'm kicking you out off you go and you do that to one person you can get annoyed or whatever but you are conditioning your audience about what will happen and like that's part of the dynamics that end up in these communities and i think destiny is very tolerant in a lot of ways of pushback but but essentially gets intolerant about certain subjects eventually right like gets fed up and is like i want anybody that will make this kind of stupid argument out of the community right yeah yeah do you think this

can happen chris this is a genuine question. We talk about cultish dynamics and the somewhat unhealthy social dynamics that can happen between gurus and their audience. But I can also see how that kind of behavior on the part of Destiny, one could fall into it easily. You know, it's the sixth hour of your stream.

Oh, yeah, yeah. You're scanning hundreds of text messages and you lose your shit and it becomes a becomes a habit yeah it's i think it's absolutely a kind of component and it's necessary even in some respect if you become a popular streamer because otherwise you know you're just going to be dealing with hassle constantly so you have to you have to have moderators you have to have like ground rules and red lines and all that kind of thing. And I think in the same way that like a lot of people start out on Twitter or other social media being like, I'm never going to ban anyone.

I'm not going to mute anyone. I'm going to be very nice. And then like after a number of years, people are just like, right, block for minor infractions, right? Because they're just fed up. Or if their audience gets bigger, they just negative comment, right, gone. And I don't mean to say that Destiny is unique in this. I do think it's a component of streamer platforms when you're big, but just maybe all social media platforms where you're engaging with your audience but you know we create examples of hassan you know chastising his audience so it only feels fair to show that it's not like destiny never does that even if you think he's justified in some case so there's that i don't know what position that would actually give in terms of where Destiny's politics lie.

But there is a famous clip of him. And this is also, I feel a little bit unfair, so I apologize that these clips are coming at the start. But this is a famous clip of Destiny complaining about how he needs to modulate himself when dealing with right wing conservative people that are in his audience, right? So it's the same thing about the audience dynamics, but going in in a different direction. So there's like a kind of famous clip.

I don't know the original stream it's from, but listen to this. Destiny, you have all the talking points, but none of the substance. Trump is the physical manifestation of the Republicans' frustration with the left. But go ahead and set up another Democrat to de-platform people even further so that an even worse Republican can come out of the ashes and fight against the left retard. Here is my problem, not Racy, okay?

I have an ungodly amount of patience, okay? I have an ungodly amount of patience. What you don't see is that every single fucking day on my stream, 10% of my brain has to go towards being an intelligent and smart individual that is equipping himself with facts and data to have intelligent and reasonable conversations about topics. And 90% of my brain goes towards trying to understand how you all became such triggered, remedial fucking snowflakes so that I can navigate a conversation gently enough with you to not set your fucking brain off so that you're incapable of hearing what anybody else has to say. That's what I spend most of my time on. That's what I spend most

of my time thinking about. You understand? It's like herding a fucking group of kindergartners and trying to figure out what I can say to you so it doesn't set you the fuck off. Because what I really want to say, when we talk about things like, this is how I have to have a conversation about hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin with fucking remedial dipshits like you. This is what I have to have a conversation about hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin with fucking remedial dipshits like you.

This is what I have to say. I understand. Fauci and the CDC, they did get some things wrong. And it's really bullshit that like some of the media, they have like a bias. And I totally understand why you can have like a mistrust in government when they act in the ways that they do, when they act kind of smug, when a lot of the politicians and the media seem to be on the same page. I understand the frustration there. mug when a lot of the politicians and the media seem to be on the same page i understand the frustration there and then when you've got other figures like joe rogan who are willing to platform voices that are unpopular platform voices that don't get voiced as much opinions don't get voiced

much when you hear these people talk you have this inclination to trust them a little bit more because they will right i don't believe any of that i hate that i hate that i hate doing that every fucking day i come on stream what i really want to say is oh you think these are good drugs let's look at the studies oh you're fucking retarded thatarded. That's it. You don't have RCTs. You don't have prospective RCTs to support ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine. You're a fucking moron. You know what you are? You're so triggered by a 92-year-old fucking limp dick Fauci going up on TV talking that

you're about to eat any fucking pill that a fucking meathead like Joe Rogan will tell you to eat. That's what I really want to say to you. But I can't say that. I have to communicate to you like you're a triggered fucking five-year-old. You know how frustrating that is? Every fucking day I come on stream and I talk to you, I have to communicate to you like you're a triggered fucking five-year-old. You know how frustrating that is? Every fucking day I come on stream and I talk to you, I have to figure out what is the nicest fucking way I can communicate

to you so your brain will function at the 10% capacity it's capable of just to understand the fucking things that I'm telling you? It is so fucking frustrating. Holy shit. I understand why Trump is popular. It's because you're triggered. Admit it, but you won't even admit that. The reality is that you're fucking triggered that a couple people on TV get a few things wrong sometimes

and that some other smug dipshit progressives who are smug and who are dipshits act like smug dipshits, that you want to go as far off in the other direction as possible. And then I have to find a way to rope you back in. Like I'm a fucking... Fuck, I hate it.

I hate having to... It is so irritating that I have to spend so much of my brain to be a gentle remedial rancher that i've got to go out into the fields and i've got to figure the gentlest way out to talk to you otherwise you're gonna get so triggered you're gonna vote for a man that wants to torch u.s democracy okay jesus fucking christ okay back to rhetorical mode back to effective effective mode. I have to say, I really enjoyed that. And I regret so much for me.

Because I think that really illustrates a lot of what he is trying to engage in and doing. But also the genuine frustration, right? I mean, he didn't let slip intentionally express that but but everything he said there i have huge sympathy for him and he's right in everything right but it also speaks to the fact that he he finds it extremely frustrating that he has to be so careful around right-wing people in order not to, you know, make them scurry away. So, yeah, that's... Yeah, that was very enjoyable.

A good demonstration of his rhetorical skills, apart from being, I think, yeah, totally right in being frustrated about that particular thing. Just remind me never to debate destiny. Not that that's ever going to happen in this world yeah i mean he uses you know there as well you hear him say retard and stuff like that right as well but again i think that's just part of that whole culture there that you know you're just using edgy language to me the point but it's not and even in the case here i don't feel like this is like red scare where with red scare i feel that they are constantly smirking to themselves

that they're saying retard or whatever but like with destiny it feels more like no that's just the way he communicates and yeah whenever he's talking to me on for good or bad, you can regard that as like, but he is not intending it as like, I think it's not as performative. It's more a genuine component of gamer streamer culture. Right? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And a genuine expression of emotion that he was talking to there. Well, look look he's definitely i'm going to call it right now we're early in it's early days but he's definitely a lot smarter frankly than red scare or hassan for that matter oh yeah um or other people of this generation that we've covered um i think that i think even destiny's most trenchant critics would have to concede that. Well, just, I will say though, Matt, like Destiny's 35.

So, you know, it's pretty much not that far off. That's a whippersnapper, Chris. It's only five years younger than me, but fine, put him in the younger generation. You've got an old soul, Chris. Yeah, I played StarC starcraft 2 all right i just wasn't as good um but yeah so let me play another clip then maybe let's go out of edgy stuff just for a bit we'll get back to it don't worry we'll get back to it but i'm gonna let destiny give a little description of his origin story and this is him in a what is it institute of ideas interview that he was giving talking about like where he comes from so you used to stream games on twitch and

more recently well over the past few years you went more into the arena of political commentary can you tell us what initiated this shift? I'd been playing games on Justin TV which would become Twitch TV I think around 2013 from anywhere from I think around 2010-2011 up to 2016 when the Trump stuff started to kick off i saw all the conversations happening and i thought i'd throw my hat in the ring and start having like political debates i'd always been kind of like an argumentative debate type person and i'd always had like a peripheral interest in politics but then with the trump stuff obviously everybody started to feel very political online and yeah it felt natural to get involved so that tone of voice by the way

here it's slightly different right like a different energy in in this interview so very different energy this is a destiny on his best behavior fat load to come dropping all over the place and uh similarly whenever they're talking about um you know politic streaming talks about this. I don't think we've ever had a setup on the planet where you've got a profit incentive on a worldwide thing that encourages people to only consume one type of content. Like, I think if you go back, like even 15, 20 years ago before the internet was as big,

you still had to be somewhat grounded because you had neighbors, you had your local community, you see people at church, you see people at the union, you see people at school, but now you can have whatever insane opinion you have, you can go online and probably find a community of like 5,000 people that have it, regardless of how insane your opinion is. And I think that kind of thing is relatively unhealthy.

So, you know, concerns about polarization and when it comes to whether his gaming skills may have contributed to like his popularity and, his popularity and debating and this kind of thing. Do you think there's a certain set of skills or set of characteristics that being successful in one of those communities makes you successful in the other? Probably not. I think that the overlap is more likely that if you draw an event diagram of people interested in playing video games and then an event diagram of online early political pundits, there's probably a lot of like a Venn diagram of like people interested in playing video games and then a Venn diagram of like

Online early political pundits. There's probably a lot of overlap because the demographics like excuse pretty young excuse fairly wealthy excuse fairly white So when you have all these things together, you're gonna get a lot of overlap between people that are you know in both fields I think I it's I'm of the opinion that most people that came from gaming had pretty bad political takes When you're involved in like a thing that's peripheral to politics then your entire political view ends up being informed by like one issue So for a lot of people that came from the gaming space It was like basically SJW and being anti SJW and that was like their entire worldview So you got a lot of people coming out of the gaming space that were kind of like pro Trump

Just because they didn't like feminism i guess and by didn't like feminism i mean they didn't like being told not to say slurs or not to be bigoted or whatever by the evil woke sjw people yeah yeah that's him a little bit you know outlining the streamer culture and the sjw anti-sjw thing but but actually saying he's not so sure that the uh the kind of characteristics that make somebody a good you know streamer of games or game player actually carry over into political debates and that and he said a similar thing when jordan peterson asked him like do you treat debates like a game is that part of your motivation and he he sort of said no he doesn't think so but i actually do think there is a gamified element to the way that he approaches debate but in any case all of the comments that he says about gaming culture and the relatively superficial political takes and whatnot that all rings true there right yeah yeah no i think it'd be interesting to hear what

he himself says about what he offers but um my recollection is he's quite upfront about that that he is running a business that he is a professional i don't know what you'd call it an entertainer or a commentator or whatever he um he thinks of it as a job, a job that pays quite well. And, yeah, I mean, I think he does have an extraordinary ability to marshal those facts, like do that sort of research, perhaps not super deep, but certainly very broad, marshalling all of those facts and arguments and then remembering them and then being able to go to a debate say with the jordan peterson and be fully and totally prepped um yeah i mean just before we

but just before we leave that colorful language stuff i don't think people should it's like it's coming back matt it's not it's not gone so don't worry but continue on oh well i could save my comment for then but i think i think um i think some people could think well someone who talks like that um you can't really take them seriously right they're not they're not a serious commentator but i was just reminded of um you know we talked about martin luther recently someone who is you're going to compare destiny to martin luther well we we compare jordan peterson to martin luther so i think we can compare destiny um okay you know like by the standards of the time he spoke the same way sometimes yes he could do the very careful

theological philosophical arguments but he also called the pope and the clergy farting asses and he talked about resisting the devil with a fart and chase him away and it's a lot of scatological language there which you know to us sounds quaint but was was appealing i think to the medieval i like this i like this, gamers as the theological clergy of the Reformation. Yeah, saying retard and whatnot. But the point is that someone like Martin Luther had different coded language as well, right? He could go. Oh, yeah, yeah.

And I mean, I think you can, these clips I'm playing now are from this Institute of Ideas, or I forget the specific name for it. But anyway, that interview they did, and you can hear a more measured, mainstream, appropriate tone, right? And when asked about, you know, his, to be a tendencies and this kind of thing, he said this. and this kind of thing he he said this but back then i would say it was willing to put in some effort to research willing to have like sharp rhetorical skills willing to be pretty edgy and then inhabiting like a left-leaning political ideology um those characteristics again besides me were pretty rare so i think there was a lot of hunger and thirst for it on the internet to see kind of like that group people come up to fight against all the kind of like the right-wing edgy people okay so again you know like

this that's him positioning himself in a way in the kind of contrasting space willing to fight fire with fire against the alt-right people and also you know a bit edgy and that kind of thing and and the fact he mentions there that he did research which put him into a different category which we'll get into and i think is also true but here's him actually from the other piece of content that we're looking at which is from his kind of manifesto why i'm not a leftist announcement um where he the main part of that video is him litigating in excruciating detail a debate that he was in with a bunch of other leftist people right so the reason why um the reason why i wanted to go over this is because this was like one of the big podcasts that now i'm getting attacked for by

a lot of different people but also because i noticed that there's a lot of revisionist history that surrounds what happened on this podcast. So, you know, I spent about seven hours last night asking my audience for clips, going through clips myself. I said, okay, well, you know what? Maybe I am full of shit. I rewatched probably about two hours of the debate myself to make sure that I had like a coming in fresh i have a fair characterization of what happened here and yeah you know let's check it out okay and he's he breaks down all of the rhetorical techniques that they engaged in and

how they misrepresented and how their positions are incoherent or whatever it's a three and a half hour video, right? One thing that's going to be a trend for this debate is he's going to bring up a whole bunch of studies, but he's not going to talk much about them. You know what that's called? Don't say it. Don't spoil it for your chat.

There's a specific name for this, okay? You might've seen it in a lot of threads accusing me of doing it, but we'll get to that. We'll get to that right here the gish gallop is a technique used during debating that focuses on overwhelming an opponent with as many arguments as possible without regard for accuracy or strength of the arguments now could i do that to people maybe one of the things that i say before every single debate i have and you can go back and listen to any of them okay is hey i talk a lot and sometimes i even talk over people if i'm getting

like real excited if i ever say anything you disagree with stop me immediately and we'll go over it but at the beginning of it he lays out his kind of political position such as he understands it right so this is him talking to a streamer audience in about a similar sort of topic that we just heard him talking um about with a mainstream audience and i think there are clear parallels here and what he's saying and this ties back into the fundamental reason why i got into politics um so as a reminder the the only reason why i got into political fields is because I feel like people weren't having conversations that were reflective of reality.

That's the only reason why I got into politics. I'll repeat stuff I've said in the past. I didn't get into politics because I wanted to help minorities or because I care so much about LGBT issues

or because I'm trying to save the planet from fucking climate change or because I think I'm the white savior of whatever black people, African people, whatever. I got into politics because I'm trying to save the planet from fucking climate change, or because I think I'm the white savior of whatever black people, African people, whatever. I got into politics because I thought that people had conversations that weren't reflective of reality. Now, as a result of my analysis of certain problems,

I've come into positions that are incredibly pro-LGBT, incredibly pro-minority, and not just when I'm around them, but when I'm not around them, that it put me into incredibly pro-welfare positions economically. Like these are the positions that I've wound up at because these are the positions that I've thought myself into. Tying back that back into what I just said, why I got into politics was because I wanted conversation to be reflective of reality. I noticed that a lot of the criticisms that I get for the way that I behave are not reflective

of reality. And this is incredibly difficult for me to sort through while I'm also trying to deal with thousands of comments of negative criticism, both from my community and without my community. So there, right, he's talking about misrepresentation, but one thing that I admire here in a way is that he's not presenting himself

as being like fundamentally motivated by super altruistic principles you know he doesn't want to save the world no his motivation was that he felt that people weren't representing political positions honestly and that frustrated him so he wanted to engage in that and try and be more direct or more honest or whatever and i will say that i think that is true like it will go in to look at some of the other stuff that he says but i think even where nobody's going to be consistent all the time and you can also take issues with the particular positions that destiny is choosing to try and be consistent on or to you know outline clearly but in that expressed desire there to be clear and to lay out positions clearly and

be honest i think he is somebody that strives to do that including when he's talking in different audiences like he's not lying in the different things. He's just modulating his message depending on who he's speaking to. Yeah, well, particularly the style of the message. Yeah. I mean, I think it is interesting that he casts himself not as being motivated as being on a moral crusade but rather being motivated by frustration that that the people aren't thinking clearly about the facts at least in his minds um and you know

that is different from most of the other influences we look at like if you look at hassan he's definitely positions himself it's moral grandstanding i suppose if you look at jordan peterson he positions himself as being on a moral crusade you could try to shoehorn um destiny's motivations as being you know a moral crusade in favor of fact-based and coherent argumentation but you know that's that's a pretty dry moral crusade if it is one yeah so let's let's hear a little bit about him reflecting on the debate bro topic for the two different audiences right so this is him on the the more mainstream outlet kind of talking about that issue and you know the ethics of debating people and so on like i can understand platforms saying like no racial slurs or something like that's fair but when we start like axing off entire parts of the ideological spectrum that we're not allowed

to talk about whether it's like covet or vaccinations or um election denial or whatever it does really bad things i think to the discourse uh it makes it so that people on the right feel unheard which they should feel heard even if i don't agree with them, it makes people on the left dumber because now they don't have any opportunity to kind of like sharpen their blades fighting these types of opinions. And then it just kind of drives all of us into these further radicalized echo chambers where nobody has any idea what's actually going on. Anytime I see a person on the right and the left come together and talk now, just in their minds they just have the most ridiculous caricatures of the other's opinions and nobody even knows how to have a conversation anymore yeah i mean that's a that's a pretty cogent defense in favor of platforming and um free speech you know having having those discussions i

think um i mean he has been criticized for giving legitimacy to neo-nazis say we'll get into that we'll get to that there's clips that speak to that and uh yes but but i think you heard though the echo of him you know what he was just complaining about that he has to say all this stuff in order to get right wing people to feel heard right but that's what he was exactly doing there. And this is him then, a slightly different thing, but like him talking about the accusation that he's a debate bro. And this is him talking to his streaming audience. So the reason why I made this post was because

I have to go through a great deal of effort after I engage with certain people to make sure, hey, like, am I full of shit certain people to make sure, Hey, like, am I full of shit? Like, am I maybe like, maybe I am just like totally fucking getting high off my own fucking shit right now. Like I might be, I might be totally wrong. It was like, a lot of people are saying that, you know, I engage in dirty debate tactics that I'm a huge piece of shit that I scream over people like, fuck, like maybe, you know, maybe I am fucking. And usually when I start to get these ideas, because I don't think I'm some exceptional genius that can walk into a crowd of 10 million people and just be right. I don't think I don't think that that of me at all.

I think I'm probably somewhat above average intelligence, but like, I don't think I'm fucking Einstein or whatever. I think I'm just a reasonably intelligent person. I can read pretty well. It's about what I have going for me. I got a lot of Wikipedia articles under my belt. Okay. So when I run into situations like this, sometimes it's good for me to take a step back and go through the evidence. Well, okay. People say that, um, so let's, let's,

a couple of examples. And I, I, sometimes I ask my community for this. People said that I, um, people say that I talk over people that I talk too much. That's really interesting. When I had people go back and look at my debate with Nicholas Fuentes, he spoke for twice as much as I did, um, literally two hours to one hour. When I had people go over and look at my debate with nicholas fuentes he spoke for twice as much as i did um literally two hours to one hour when i had people go over my debate with michael brooks i think he spoke for like 35 minutes to like my 15 it was insane um when i had people go over my debates with um there was one other but oftentimes at the end of my debates i'll have my audience go through like hey can you go and check like can somebody like go and actually map this out did i really speak because i don't feel like i did i feel like i have a pretty good like vision of myself from the outside so i mean i have to have

the caveat that i've only listened to 0.001 percent of destiny's total content but i but i have listened to two debates one was with norman finkelstein and some other people that was about gaza israel and israel yeah and and there was another one that was about the use the use of the n word which is probably another thing we'll talk about now well that that is that's the content that's what he's referring to yeah yeah well i have to say that i mean like in both those bits of content justin is telling the truth like you know he was the person that was attempting to speak, at least relatively speaking, compared to the people he was dealing with. He was acquitting himself well in terms of being a good faith discussion,

however you want to describe it. Yeah, he's trying to present his positions, right? Like he's not trying to hide from them, even where they involve him like clarifying that he doesn't think dropping the nuke that will kill two million palestinians or whatever is not necessarily genocidal right now he wants to argue that because he wants to say that there can be things which are bad which are not genocidal because there's specific characteristics but that is him trying to clarify his position now you can still disagree with it you can regard that as like a very bad stance to hold but he

is trying to be clear about what his position is when he's doing that um and i i do feel that a lot of the people that he engages with that a lot of the frustration comes when he is trying to get them to say what their actual position is, and they do not return the favor, right? So to speak. So yeah, and maybe these are clips that are relevant here. So from that stream, the one where he litigated, like a large part of it is litigating his argument

that people should be able to use the n-word in private which seems an insane political position like a hill to die on for someone um especially with liberal sensitivities but i think that speaks to the point that like if he thinks that that is the correct argument he's going to die on that hill as many times as necessary to argue why he thinks it's coherent so let's play a couple of clips about him you know highlighting this desire he has to represent his politics accurately and what his politics are about um my political beliefs are what they are and I consistently present them through every single part of my life. Um, I will say them on stream. I will say them to friends. I will say them on a stage full of black people who might even be police officers, full of an audience of black

people that are conservatives that hate me. I have lost business relationships. I have lost friends or acquaintances. I've cut off family members. I've lost fans. I've gained friends, gained fans, gained business acquaintances. All of this has been like a big shift as I've kind of like grown and evolved with my political beliefs over time uh all of my money comes from advertising on twitch and then subscriptions and

then revenue that i make through merchandising sales and then the individual sponsorships that i sell along the way i'm not paid by any major media organization um the young turks washington post none of these people give me money i don't take donations for political purposes from anybody uh the views that i express on stream are my views through and through they always have been and they always will be that will never change because i don't care to change them for anything else yeah i'll just have to say that this commentary of himself gels with the information that i've got about him and the impression that i've got which is that well first of all he's very upfront about it's a business model he's got um but but also as we talked about at the beginning

the streamer brand is one in which you seem to break down the any distinctions between your personal life and your private opinions and your public facing commentary right um for good and ill perhaps but what that means is that in practical terms when you are um you know just talking for hours and hours on end every day the brand is authenticity right like like him or loathe him you know the brand is the character whether it's asan or destiny and he does seem to be serious about his attempt to be whatever to be consistently himself i guess in all of these different contexts. Yes. Yeah. So I'll take a slight pause, Matt. We'll continue back to Destiny, you know, owning his beliefs and being sincere or not.

But I feel a sidetrack might be useful at this point to just illustrate to people who are, you know, wondering, like, what exactly do you mean in terms of personal and political and whatnot all getting intermingled so this is from a stream destiny did after getting divorced from his wife and he's now commenting on her contacting him about some money or something right like the stream is an hour and a half going over the various issues that he has with the way that his wife has acted or whatnot. And this is Melina, a 20 year old at the time they got married, fellow streamer or Instagram person.

Anyway, let's just hear a little bit of that. Does the therapist know about that trait talking shit to other people and Mel? Yeah, of course. It was one of the huge things that would come up over and over and over again but she always had like an excuse for everything um i'm just trying to think of like where i want to uh because there's like there's just like one or two quick things i wanted to run over and then i might like i'll probably do a more comprehensive thing um why do you think that she isn't going to leak or talk shit uh melina will not leak or talk shit about any of this because she knows that uh everything about this makes her look like a satanic demon she knows that uh she's threatened it a million times like i'm gonna start leaking everything oh yeah let's go okay if you really want to holy because my reputation is already

zero in regards to our relationship everything's i'm a horrible piece of shit we want to start leaking shit we can do it she knows that she looks horrible though yeah so so wait well let me just play the second clip for that and then i'll allow you to comment so that's that's one thing and then uh here's a little bit more of that uh yeah i'm sorry the only things that i want to do though is i want to make sure that like i don't want to be thought of as a liar that irritates me um i don't like the idea that the impression is that like i'm an abusive person and i want to give like a very broad accounting of like things that have happened because i don't like the impressions that exist with me like relating to a lot of the stuff but what i have to like be careful about is i don't want it to be like i hate melina uh which i do

by the way that bitch uh she has everything that's coming to her uh thank god um but i don't want it to be like because i hate her now we're leaking six hours of like our private life to make her look bad that's not like my goal and that's not even for her i don't care about it it's just it reflects poorly on me and it's not like the character that uh i don't think it's becoming of like high character i don't i don't know that becoming of high character, discussing, you know, your marriage counseling therapist sessions and referring to your ex-wife as an effing satanic bitch or whatever. I don't know. I think that ship has sailed by taking the high grind at that point. But this is what I was referring to about that authenticity and it's not

like a just a simple compliment it's maybe not even a compliment at all because the brand someone like destiny is living their life out in the open so to speak there doesn't seem to be any kind of filter and no boundaries you you and i don't often talk about our our wives for instance on this podcast no no you know and i think this is a bit that will sort of bend normie's brains a bit which is that this is part of the appeal i think this is part of of the draw that destiny presents himself i think quite genuinely as someone who lays it all out there the audience is invited to get involved and and to be a part of this as well warts and all and yeah it's just a very different um a very different thing than what most of us are used to we'll return to the absolute dissolution of boundaries in Destiny's content and community

in a bit. But let's go back after that little sojourn into personal matters to Destiny staking out his kind of philosophy and stuff again. And just to mention, I do think there's a through line because the frustration that Destiny mentioned was being misrepresented, right? mention them i do think there's a through line because the frustration that destiny mentioned was being misrepresented right like feeling that he isn't being accurately portrayed by melina or the discourse that's why he needs to set the record straight right and i think that does fit with his kind of position about politics is like he doesn't seem to care so much as long as

people accurately represent what he's saying like he seems to get most annoyed by people misrepresenting what he's trying to argue for or say so anyway returning to the more philosophical side of destiny i noticed that a lot of people seem to get off on accusing me of grifting and something that's very frustrating to me is that when i talk to people i find that i spend half the conversation trying to figure out what is it that you actually even believe people have a really hard time owning difficult positions they won't bite the bullet on the logical conclusions of some crazy position they might hold. For instance, when I ask Hassan if a woman getting raped in an alleyway is within her right to call the cops, Hassan, instead of giving a straight answer, will instead pussy out like a

coward and say, well, I wouldn't call the cops instead of actually owning that position and saying, well, sometimes maybe you do need to call the cops. When I ask people about whether or not they own a position related to um and we'll go into more of this later on but basically like i noticed that a lot of people have a lot of trouble owning like all of the extensions of like whatever political system they believe in i don't i'll own every opinion i have whether it's related to um the fucking incest discussions we've had whether it's related to foreign policy whatever um i'll own every position that i have whether it's the abolishment of capitalism

or, or, or liberal values or whatever. Um, yeah. Um, you might not like what I say. Um, I think there are valid challenges to a lot of what I say. Um, I don't think I'm correct on everything. My views have continued to evolve over time. I wouldn't expect that process to stop. I'm sure there's positions that I hold today that I probably won't hold five years from now i would hope so i'd hope i continue to grow and change um all i ever do is present to you what i believe at any given point in time and what you're getting is basically like always a work in process in progress authenticity as you say yeah reasonable philosophical destiny is um quite appealing to me like i i think what he's saying there is true and he's pointing to something real obviously you know when people

have a rhetorical position or a political position they'll often refuse to engage with the consequences like logical consequences of that position so he was referring there to the defund the police it's always wrong to call the police even if there's a crime going on that kind of thing and he says and you know i think he's right in saying that a lot of people who would hold that position for example will refuse to talk or grapple with the logical consequences of that one thing i'll say for destiny is that whether his positions are good or bad i don't think he would do that i don't think he would obfuscate and sidestep it and change the topic i think if you said hey explain to me why you think it's okay to do a genocide on the palestinians or ethnic cleansing

you know explain that to me i don't think he's going to avoid the question no and uh here's a clip speaking to that with relation to the trihex stuff i know that there is no world where a person as white as me has an argument with somebody that is almost crying about whether or not they can or cannot use the android that's never going to turn out well for me i know that i know that in the public eye no one is ever coming out saying like yeah destiny crushed him in that that's never going to happen. But I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that because part of what I sell as part of my brand, and I sell this in a business sense, as in you watch me and subscribe to me, and I sell this in a personal sense, as in if you're going to have a romantic, a sexual, a friend relationship, a video game relationship with me um authenticity is a really big selling point of my character you hopefully should never ever ever have to guess what i'm thinking ever you don't like i don't know what destiny would think about that i don't know what steven would want about this like you never have to guess i'll tell you um you know if if you think that

you're really hot and and that i'm just like faking an enjoyment for sushi to get in bed with you, it's not going to happen. I fucking hate sushi. It's never going to happen. And I'm not going to fake that. Okay. I'm true as fuck. Okay. Steak boys for life.

Okay. I eat shit that comes from the ground, not from the fucking sea. Fuck that shit out of here. Okay. Or if you're a black person and you talk to me and you say destiny what do you feel about the n-word destiny how do you feel about reparations um destiny why do you think black people have the problem in the u.s the answer that i give you is going to be the same as i give anybody any time on any platform and in any environment it's always going to be the same um nothing i do is performative

i feel he may be slightly overstating things like because he does give different answers depending on you know the audience and and how much the people can handle and that but i but i think the sentiment is correct which is like he he does say what he thinks and he tries to make it consistent across different contexts like he doesn't try to obfuscate his positions that much all seems true even if the position is you should use the n-word you should be free to use the n-word in private with other people that are not racist. That is his position on that, by the way. Just out of interest, because I heard the debate about it, but I didn't hear the, like, I couldn't get any sense out of it,

mainly because the people he was talking to were so terrible. What is his position? Is it like a kid who's listening to NWA, who's singing along to the lyrics and any... Yeah, his position is, in one sense, the context matters, right? That, like, if you're using the N-word in the context of reciting the songs, the rap song, that matters, right? It's not the CM as saying it as a slur.

But the second point, the more controversial one, is that he wants to argue it's fine to use privately with other people not just the n-word but any nixler or whatever where people know that you are not a racist so you are using it as like an edgy joke right but his position also is you shouldn't do that in public because it can encourage you know like he understands audience dynamics and normalizing bigotry and that kind of thing so he's saying but in private like amongst friends who know that you're not racist it should be okay to use the n-word you know even if you're white if you don't mean it in a racist sense yeah yeah yeah i mean you and i are not from the united states so this this is not the cultural

touchstone or third rail um here it didn't come up much in belfast so that had to be a way a lot of people did say it in rap songs or what that but you know i've been transferring that to the context that i know about i mean i do agree that we shouldn't treat words like magical talismans with superpowers. Like some heuristics around not using certain words are certainly good. But, you know, I can, like I follow an account called EatWog, all right, and it's an Australian of Greek or Italian descent

and, you know, wog food is great. You know what I mean? Like that word has lost. Oh, it's a slur. It's a der mean? Like that, that word has lost. Oh, it's a, it's a slur. It's a derogatory term for say a Greek or Lebanese or an Italian person. Oh,

I was thinking gollywog. So I was like, God damn that. Yeah. I can't remember doing it, but I'm sure I would have, might've used that, that word in a similar tone,

in a similar context, in a friendly joshing where, where everyone involved knows that there is no sting in it and it is just sort of absurd like it's it's just absurd at the moment to be racist towards um greeks or italians say in australia these days and similarly with my brother who happens to be gay um you know he and i have used the phrase, oh, that's so gay, talking about something between ourselves, knowing exactly what we mean. So, yeah. His position is also, Matt, that there was a guy called Tri-Hex that he did a podcast with, a black guy, and Tri-Hex had a discussion with Destiny

where he got very upset with him over this position. And I think they ended up, I don't know when they stopped doing the podcast or whatever but in any case you know the relationship was materially damaged by the stance that he took on this but destiny in some sense he's a lot more extreme than i think a lot of people would be because a lot of people might just be like you know it's not that big of a deal i don't want to hurt my friend and i don't want to be known as the n-word guy but destiny is like no there's a you know the yeah this point matters and he's annoyed because he heard tri-hex in another conversation give his justification right and he's like well that's inconsistent so you're saying that if you use

the n-word with a hard r there's there's no context here it's automatically bad no no and you critique me a point for asking for context there however the intention of how that word is used can give you more than just a binary good or bad judgment over the usage of the inner of the heart okay a gamer now we have zirka saying hard r is always dehumanizing and tri-hex this is just a few weeks ago, says that contextually... Like Mitch using it? When is it the right context?

Let him finish. Let him finish, John. For example, was he using it with a hard R to be edgy humorous and not a direct negative connotation tone or was he using it to assault someone? There is no humor in that word. It's dehumanizing.

What are you talking about? Here we literally have my argument platformed verbatim. That contextually, even a hard R with a white person might not be dehumanizing, like Zerka is saying. And he also is annoyed that Hassan will agree with him in similar conversation that there are circumstances where it's okay. And then when he's in the presence of, you know, black people that he'll say something different. I'm sorry, what does Hassan say when it's just me? When it's whitey to whitey? When it's cracker to cracker?

Okay, when it's fucking pale friend to pale friend? When it's two people that can walk into a room with a single flashlight and light the whole motherfucking place up, whether it's from my pale skin or the growing baldness on his fucking head, okay? What does Hasan say at this point? But if someone else is doing it in the privacy of their own conversation with another

person, there are specific contexts in which you could probably say the N-word. Cool. That is my... Now, this is poorly clipped because he gives more context in the first in the first like 10 seconds back but it actually is all context it helps me hasan unironically makes my private public language argument now i don't know why he's not brave enough to make it in front of black people maybe he feels like black people are too stupid

or emotionally immature to handle this position um maybe he's scared. Maybe he's worried that his audience will think it looks bad. Maybe he's more concerned with optics than with principles. I don't know. It's not really for me to say. I'll use Hasan as an example. I'm not going to talk to a black person like Tri-Hex and say, hey, the N-word, it's always bad, brother. Brothers for life, dude. ESL, man. I'm Turkish, dog. Yeah, i totally get you man the n-word is horrible i'm not going to go into a podcast with other upset black people and then perform you know like a circus animal for them and go like yeah yeah you guys are right man i know why you guys are triggered like amen guys like the n-word is always wrong it's dehumanizing

right guys but then when i'm in a one-on-one conversation with a white person later like me um yeah dude like we can say the N-word sometimes. Like, it's cool. As long as it's, like, appropriate, like, and the joke is really funny. Like, yeah, it's cool. I'm never going to do that shit. Whatever I say, I'll say it to every single motherfucker that I talk to, full stop. You never have to guess where I stand on any issue, okay?

Yeah. So, I mean, the topic at hand, like, the contentious issue is, frankly, a stupid one, right? So, I mean, the topic at hand, like the contentious issue is frankly a stupid one, right? Is South Park style bad language okay sometimes, right? You know, who cares? Americans care. Americans care. They do. Sorry.

Sorry. Sorry, Americans. But, I mean, I think it speaks to his motivations and his character. Like he is aggressively upset about people just saying things because it sounds good. It's going to make people happy in this situation. And he's completely fine with people thinking he's an asshole or a degenerate or whatever.

But he hates people misrepresenting him, like you said, or thinking he's saying something which he isn't yes yes and and he's very clear about this like just another example do i want to change how people reacted um you know am i happy that some people were upset do i care to change myself enough to make some people not upset um do i how much am i invested in a particular thing? Do I enjoy the freedom I have to be, you know, very bombastic and very aggressive and abrasive? Is that worth the trade-off where I lose some friends, I lose some sponsorships, some people are turned off by my messaging because I'm too aggressive. You know, these are all things that I'm weighing

at the end of the day and big, like big situations like this give me a a really good chance to it's a lot of data right i can step back and i can think about a lot of different things you know like did i approach my conversation with tri-hex correctly you know should i have been it on some principles should i have been kinder in public should i phrase things differently should i have been more argumentative should i've been less argumentative should have i reached out privately um should i have avoided this forum altogether maybe these aren't the right places to discuss things. There's a multitude of like different dimensions that I can kind of look at to see how could I have approached this thing differently? What would the different results have been? You know, is it good? Is it bad? Or whatever. And I apply this to a lot of the different things

that have happened over the past few days. So, okay. So, I go through, so, understanding that all of that exists in my mind. So, this is like a pretty, there's a pretty personal view that I have of the world, right? I'm going through a very personal way that I evaluate and audit my own behavior to make sure that I'm bringing it in line with how other people see me. I like to think that I have a very, very, very good idea

of how other people see me. I like to think that I understand why people like me, why people fucking hate me. Parts of the personalities that I, part of my personality people enjoy, part of my personality people fucking hate. And I think for the most part, I think I have a pretty good grasp on most of that.

Like sometimes it seems like I get a lot of feedback that's negative and I do. Generally, I'm aware that it's coming and generally I just don't care. Like I like the final, final you know he goes through quite a lot he's clear you know i do have all these thoughts i do reflect on things and actually he outlines like a quite detailed you know reflective process but his conclusion at the end is like i do think about all that and then i decide that i don't care it's refreshing it's such an interesting

character um yeah i think we're building up the picture of what makes destiny tick and also what is his appeal to his audience and one thing i don't think we have made clear we've hinted at a few times but how would you describe his political uh location chris he's a mid moderate liberal left-wing progressive but not on the bleeding edge of it yeah yeah he's a like he's a liberal person with that leans progressive but is definitely not a leftist um and i i do think like i can play two clips that basically illustrate where he is politically like here's him talking a bit about biden i mean legislatively like i think in the first year or two i think people would have said that biden accomplished more than anybody thought he'd ever be able to do. So, legislatively, the administration is very strong. I would argue that foreign policy-wise, I think it's fairly

strong. Some people were unhappy that the Afghanistan pullout wasn't as nice as it could have gone, but at least we're out. And I'll give a major props to that. Trump said he would get us out. He pushed it off until the next election. So, I mean, at least we're out of Afghanistan. And I think the United States has done a really good job at taking leadership on the ukraine issue with russia but then that's contentious among people on the very far left and a lot of people on the right so yeah and then also there were like early day successes as well like i think we buoyed the economy pretty well for covid he got the 100 million vaccinations and like half the time he said he would uh even though maybe that's not 100 you know biden to biden's credit but um in terms of like on leadership i think that he has the demeanor of a president

which is nice to not have to look at twitter to see what my fucking leader is saying every day in the world stage uh foreign policy wise he has a respectable foreign policy he's not like doing crazy stuff all the time no photo ops with insane people um yeah in terms of cons uh i mean the age is going to be a big one i mean you you watch him talking about bosnia 20 30 years ago and you compare that to today definitely is slowing down a bit uh sometimes i wonder if he's a little bit too milquetoast like i kind of wonder i look at biden in my opinion i feel like biden is he's pretty hard to hate because he's not like that polarizing yeah but he's also really hard to like get behind because he's not

like that exciting you know whereas obama was a person that the republicans love to hate and the democrats love to love uh biden is just kind of there i think he does a good job but in kind of a boring way so people don't care as much yeah i think that's a good um a good clip to play because you can basically locate an american on the political spectrum by finding out what they think of biden if they hate biden they could be hard left or on the right but if they they think biden is basically fine but aren't terribly excited about him then yep that that's where you are on the spectrum yeah and we we do have some clips that highlight the difference from leftists so I'll play one of them the political distribution of people in the United States right now is very strange if you go online

progressives basically run everything yeah but in the real world progressives are a minority of the democratic voting bloc and they have almost no political power but they seem to be very active culturally and in like schools and everything the progressives kind of like have the reins on all the social issues but i feel like they're running farther and farther away from where people are at organically in the conversation like if you talk to a progressive they would tell you that like the debate today needs to be whether or not like a four-year-old can be considered trans and in the united states i don't even know if the normal voter has completely bought into anybody being trans yet like my guess is probably 30 to

40 percent of americans don't even believe that transness is like a real thing at all voter has completely bought into anybody being trans yet like my guess is probably 30 to 40 percent of americans don't even believe that transness is like a real thing at all the republicans have made like trans issues the focal point i guess of the past like year and a half of all of their policies of all of their talking points of like i feel like every single day i go on twitter there's like seven guys from the daily wire talking about lita thomas or some trans issue or some culture wars thing related to trans stuff or another book in a school. Yeah. Um,

I feel like more specifically, I guess I feel like progressives, when they go to argue about a lot of these niche social issues, there's very little understanding for a little compassion, very little empathy. If they run into somebody that disagrees with them, they basically immediately write them off as like a racist, a bigot,

a sexist, a fascist. And then they don't really have the ability to even engage in that conversation yeah i mean good i think um that's not an unreasonable comment on the american political scene at the moment um where yeah yeah i mean i think it's fair to say he's not a fan so you know like if you identify destiny as a progressive you have to take into consideration that this is a stance on the general progressive wing of the Democratic Party. And... Well, sorry, I'll just interject there. I thought his main point there was that the, I guess, hyper-progressive issues that the edge of the

progressive party in the United States likes to talk about is also something that the right wing and maga likes to endlessly um go on about so oh yeah yeah i think he's talking about a more of a pragmatic risk you have yeah i don't think he's agreeing with like all the criticisms that he raises there but i think he does hold a whole bunch of progressive things but i just mean that like if you describe destiny as a progressive you have to at least describe him as a hypercritical progressive because he's essentially saying most progressives are counterproductive for the politics that they want to instill to you okay so you're using progressive to describe not all biden voters no no no no liberals i'm using liberals like i'm distinguishing liberals

and progressives and i think he is too i think that culturally the progressives have put the democratic party in a really weird spot like for instance in um in 2022 um we did really good in the elections i think a lot of it had to do with abortion and um and trump's bad leadership but like earlier than that the blm riots and the push for socialism and the all cops are bastards rhetoric from the progressives even though they're a minority of the party really hurt a lot of mainstream democrats in their elections yeah so politically you know he he's like mainstream democrat in the u.s liberal but with some more progressive takes but no no love for the progressive and certainly not for the communist tanky bleeding edge of the left he is not a fan yeah i i think the correct

description is that while this the center of his political opinions is center-left, nook-toes, boring, pretty standard, much like ours. But he's very much a heterodox edgelord on various issues, you know, like we heard about Israel and Palestine. Yeah. Yeah, so there, you know, we've been highlighting some of the mainstream political positions that he holds and where does he fit you know in the landscape or

whatnot let's go back into the world of streaming the controversies and stuff that generate there so one particular piece of juicy destiny lore might be that he had plotted on his stream to kill a child that was interfering with his ability to stream by doing DDoS, denial of service attacks, right? Like hacker shit. And this was in the early days of streaming when you could do this through, I think, getting access to someone's IP address. And it interfered with Destiny's ability to earn money, right?

And it's fair to say he took this badly he uh he ended up you know like finding out details about the kid that was responsible or kids and like you know contacting them feeling that the family were not responsive enough and threatening them in various different ways and to be fair he also contacted i believe the fbi and various law enforcement to try and get them to stop but so this became well known because he talked about like wanting to kill them the boy and his father at least and kind of plotting about how he would go about doing that and now that might get kind of shunted off to edgy nebraska steve when he's in his 20s or whatever like you know being an edgelord but in line with all the stuff that we've just been talking about people have asked destiny more

recently how serious he was about that and how justified he thinks it is to like plot out to kill a hacker child who's interfering with your stream um and i've got two clips from him engaging with someone about that one lawyer um and he told me that for lawsuits like this that because all of it is uncharted territory that one it would cost me tens of thousands of dollars because you'd need tons of expert witnesses to come in and explain things like TCP IP stacks to the fucking jury to even begin to talk about a DDoS thing.

And that two, the likelihood of it even succeeding is going to rely almost completely on how tech savvy the judge is and if people even understand what's going on. And that like proving damages and stuff might be difficult too. That you're looking at like a big ticket lawsuit. Yeah, yeah go ahead if your question is in that situation where the law is murky where it's expensive we're all in that case and when the police aren't don't seem to be doing

it because it's like uncharted waters or whatever um is the right solution to kill someone and do we want to live in a society where that's set up that way okay so i said no that should be should that be murder if you would kill okay what about beating the shit out of them attacking them i don't think that the law would cover that either him? Okay, what about beating the shit out of him? Attacking them? I don't think that the law would cover that either. Okay, then tell me what it should be. Tell me what you should do. What you should do is you should advocate for new prosecutors and new laws and new protections.

That's what we do in this society. This is the gayest possible fucking response. Tell me you've got to have something better. Now let me ask you a question. No, wait, you didn't even answer. Okay. Yeah. So, again, the kind of tone you might take it so there he

did kind of imply well what if i beat the crap out of them instead with that and the guy is saying no you you can't do that but um a bit more from that conversation i want to restate then your solution is that i should have advocated to congress that they change the laws while i lose my job for 5x plus years for them to figure out what to do that i would i would recommend that you get self-help i would i would recommend that you start a lawsuit i would recommend you do exactly what you did which is to find new ways to protect yourself which is what i do yeah okay yeah perfect i wouldn't recommend and anyone who recommend that you kill someone would be wrong. Look at how much worse your life would have been if you had done that.

If you're just looking at the particular case that you have. I mean, it depends on whether or not I figured out. It is the case. Your life would have been ruined if you did that. Well, I don't know if the alternative would have been that there was no solution for these types of attacks and people could infinitely grab your IP from a whole bunch of things. My life would have been ruined either way. I don't know which one would have been worse. I'm not sure. you're not sure what

would be worse to be well depends on if you get caught or not right isn't that the whole point of fucking killing somebody's if you get caught all right now look did i answer all your questions can i ask you some questions uh yeah okay if someone had done what you said that you were whatever that situation should they have gone to jail uh no and they were caught no hmm that's interesting yeah yeah so let's let's just recap really briefly tell me if i've got this straight so there's this young troll hacker kid doing distributed denial of service attacks back in the day, back when that was a serious problem. There wasn't an easy solution. Destiny attempted to resolve it by contacting the kid,

so please stop or whatever. Contacting the kid, then contacting his parents. Contacting his parents, saying, hey, your kid is taking a hacker. Going to the police and even the FBI, who I think you said just weren't interested because they found out. They didn't really understand, didn't take it seriously, yes. Yeah, yep.

So, Destiny's position is a legal case, a civil legal action against the kid or his family would be impractical, poor chance of success, etc. Yeah, time-consuming. Time-consuming, yep. poor chance of success etc yeah therefore time consuming yep uh therefore um you know a beating or a murder is is the right thing to do um yeah potentially without punishment because the other person asked them you know if you were caught doing that do you think the person should be punished and in other parts of the conversation he is saying you know well if someone was

threatening your livelihood and you weren't able to provide for your family, they were coming every day and stopping you feeding your family. Wouldn't you be justified in taking action? And I kind of feel still fundamentally missing the point that, no, you cannot murder people, even when they're behaving extremely unreasonably and damaging your ability to earn a livelihood. Like murder. No, it's not like if they are threatening your life in terms of they are attacking you, then there are some occasions where that's justified but destiny seems to be are advocating that but it was really annoying and costing him a lot of money and therefore what's he supposed to do yeah and but the point is that he is upfront arguing for that right i think i mean so this is the interesting thing apart from the extremely edgy aspects of his point of view

there is that he he said this years ago and many years ago like back in the early days and it would have been entirely possible to say hey i was really upset at the time i was extremely emotional my entire livelihood was being threatened i was blowing off some steam. I don't think that, but no. He will die on that hill. Yeah, yeah. So he's like, well, to be clear, he didn't kill the boy, right? So he found a way.

Good, good. He apparently, I don't know how much this is true, but I did hear it in one of the various Destiny lore videos I watched that he made a website detailing, you know, the various technical steps he made to immunize himself from this kind of attack. And it became a standard that many other streamers followed to avoid this. So he actually did a public good in some respect, as opposed to a murder. But it's the fact that he feels a murder morally and logically would have been justified

and he's prepared to explain like in the past couple of years that that is still the case like that's a reasonable position to hold now he's wrong matt just to be clear i mean you can agree with him if you want but i think a large amount of people would see the problems inherent in that argument but the fact that he is making that in public is quite remarkable to me like yeah yeah it's remarkable yeah i'm not going to debate him about it but i'll just say that i also think it's wrong there's no circumstances i'm gonna pick i am gonna raise this i just i just want to understand the process a bit more but but the thing is i think if you asked him he would be exactly the same as in that other interview where he would steamroll you with a bunch of very logical very coherent arguments

why it's the case i don't think i can it destiny but i don't know that this logic is going to hold very firm this position right like i i think this is a very this is like one of these tasks that they give you at the beat school about defend this position which is almost indefensible right so that would be an interesting challenge. But a similar thing, Matt, just to mention this, I feel this is a little bit similar. It's kind of getting into the edgy tendency, but also the express your opinion directly. So there's a stupid red pill podcast called Fresh and Fit.

It's monosphere, high quality meal, alpha man shit. It's stupid, misogynistic, like Andrew Tate level crap. And one of them is currently going through a controversy because he had sex with a Instagram influencer woman, and she is now claiming that she is pregnant with his child and wants him to materially support, right? So it's kind of, it's all the things that those idiots spend their time warning about, that there's these gold diggers that are trying to get your money and whatever, and you need to avoid these traps.

But setting that part of the dynamics aside, the woman in question was on some other stream discussing her situation and destiny jumped in to be in destiny's position is he is sort of condemning of the fresh and fit guy but he wants to also condemn her for like going and getting pregnant from an influencer and then she hasn't had the kid yet but has a plan that that person needs to pay child support and all this so he wants to say that that is immoral as well and i'm just gonna play the clip of him talking to the woman in question and showing that again he likes to very clearly state his position regardless of norms of decency or you know like that's just here what he has to say who are you how do you have the rights to talk

about this like talking about a man because I'm apparently because I'm older than you I've got more life experience than you I mean so you have more rights no apparently I've got I'm just curious it seems like you have like all of this I don't want to talk to you right now okay so Daisy

I don't want to talk to you let me um okay um that's he's gonna take a break for a little bit i am i will i'll take out this woman is a piece of trash though she's ruining his life because you're actually subhuman filth just letting you know that good luck bye you can say whatever you want i'll judge you you can say whatever you want i think god will judge you you can say whatever you want yes i feel he's expressing himself with directness fairly misogynistic language or whatever but he basically just wants to say you're a terrible person for for this um as as well but that's what i mean is like i feel that if you ask destiny about that opinion about him saying that to her he'd probably say you know maybe i shouldn't have said god will

judge you or whatever but he would be like but i think she is in the wrong and that's what i was wanting to express and yeah so that tendency has not gone away, right? Like this is very recently he did that. I think that's from like a week or two ago. So, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So how would you characterize it then, Chris? It's a combination of this internet, this very crude internet culture norms in terms of how just how people talk and he also doesn't

care personally about the mores and mores of you know being a little bit delicate being a bit careful around a sensitive topic he just he just wades right in it's so i find some of this a little bit confusing initially because i could see Destiny in these like streams or mainstream appearances where, you know, like he's being very careful and whatnot. And then I would come across like a drama stream event where he's on stream with various 20-year-old orbiters and they're just having the most inane conversation conversation and i was kind of like why why do

this but i think the explanation is he enjoys it like he does enjoy getting down in the muck and rolling around and like i'll give some examples from this but there's a whole host of destiny orbiters and they they sometimes are friends they sometimes are enemies as we mentioned earlier there are videos that are titled like bridge is burning or bridge burned right essentially for when he's going to cut them off and stop appearing with them or that kind of thing and there's figures in his orbit who are relatively reasonable or they're just streamers or, you know, they have some political takes or whatever. And there are also extremely unhinged, often very young people with a host of issues, a host of issues, you know, various self-diagnosed bipolar disorder or mental issues various extreme political takes or whatever um and let me just highlight the dynamics at play so destiny joins in a call where various

people had gathered to discuss him and their problems with him uh you become destiny who's dealt with this for over 10 years 10 years he gets constant constant constant hate can you imagine what that does to a person right like yeah most people aren't sad for that at all yeah and and destiny talks about he's like he's like oh it doesn't affect me that you have to pretend it doesn't otherwise it'll encourage the the malicious people to do it more you have to like be that i don't like maybe that's true yes that people like care less if you care less but i don't think that it requires deep sadness and now because not okay maybe not deep sadness but even maybe avoidance like the fact that i mean i think that

part of why he wants to make villains is so that he is not the villain right you like you shift he's like very constantly shifty so that he is like you know the superman of the story so he's the hero of the story or the victim of the story this is just part of like the types of engagements. We're talking about debates that like the type of content we're doing is like where we are like getting into it, yelling at each other, cussing at each other, like going after each other personally. Like, yes, but it's just like absolutely. Yes, but Tom, it is very different. It is very. So like. Right.

This he wasn't like invited. He just jumped in and the host letterman because good content for them so um and this is him talking to a a woman called catnip you can go off what i actually said in the video but like uh why further spread the narrative that i'm like some kind of a gold digger or something um i said i fly home and arrive tomorrow night you said what time i said 10 30 you said can my squad come? Are you down to hang? We have to go to the airport at like 4 a.m.

But we'd be down if you have the time. And I said, okay, hey-o. We can meet at a restaurant called Big Pink on Miami Beach at like 1130 if you guys want. And then you said, my friend said, if you pay, we can. And then you sent me a bikini pic of all three of you. Which was her idea. Yes.

Yes. Yes. If you think that I miscommunicated any of our messages, I don't think I did, but those are our chat logs. There you go. But then later I heard you mention something about it on stream. And then I said, hey, yo, was like that about me. And then I clarified that it was her who suggested that. And then you said you're fine. But am I fine or am i not fine about that

well no i thought it was incredibly are you holding it against me yeah of course no shit why because it was incredibly it was super presumptive and kind of cringe i mean i don't like hate you hey hey i i also had second thoughts and honestly i was people pleasing in that moment i'm like i guess if that's what she thinks is like okay okay so chris help me understand this is an example of um which are a pretty typical thing that destiny and his group does which is like litigating in microscopic detail a interactions and and dramas and yeah and in this case it's not just an online one there was the potential for them to meet up at some location and the cabinet i think i hope i'm not misrepresenting the the correct name here but um she suggested like meeting up somewhere with destiny with her

friend and then suggested that they would come if he paid for dinner and sent him a bikini picture which he found cringe and then you know they ended up talking about this on the right and then he talked about that incident on stream and then she he released the thing or whatever and just to highlight again it goes more than that so there's other people on the call as you can hear like various people but here's another example from the same call you can travel you can do anything you want to do if you have money

and you can have sex with every bpd woman you've ever met exactly let's fucking go speaking of which uh just to clarify no me and destiny did not fuck we never even met because uh destiny didn't want to pay for dinner. So you're saying it costs

a dinner? No, that's not what I'm saying. But we never even got to meet. No. I think I at least got a water bottle. If I remember correctly. Oh my god. Doesn't take much's that's why i was so hurt by the lie because i even offered you know like to take him out for coffee i said after i was a

famous corn star i was gonna make it rain on him and melina and then he went out of his way to mischaracterize me as just the gold digger man are you actually a famous corn star you know who you are no not like big but i've been doing it what's it what's a corn star chris point star i think it's a point star oh sorry yeah i i it does come up in the transcript this corn star oh they probably edited it for the youtube like oh i see probably yeah but yeah and so that's YouTube life. Oh, I see. Probably. Yeah. But yeah. And so that's the precursor to Destiny, I think, joining, right? They're talking about all this. But you hear another person who I believe is Lav, another Destiny

orbiter, mentioning that when she slept with Destiny, at least she got a bottle of water, right? So this is one person who was potentially going to meet up with destiny and sent bikini pictures another person who has slept with him previously talking on another person's stream about something he said this community which annoyed them and jesus christ so so this seems to be the darkest side of the living your life in public

and the darkest side of the ultra-authenticity, which is everybody gets treated the same, right? It could be Jordan Peterson. It could be a pregnant Chinese influencer who's talking to him. It could be a fan who's BPD. There's a great deal of permeability. There is no reluctance to get involved personally, sexually with one's audience.

And it has an aspect to it, which reminds me of like reality TV, the Love Island and terrible shows like that, which is it's also entertainment um and just like with love island i mean people people volunteer to go on these things and to sort of play around with the boundaries of doing stuff because they want to become famous because they want to get the the media airtime it's it's kind of an act it's kind of a drama put on for show but it's also real to some degree um it is am i understanding it

approximately correctly chris yeah but it's you know like you heard with the melina stuff it's pretty direct at times like this is a so this is a different stream with one of the people involved in this discussion love talking to destiny right and listen to this kind of thing though like making fun of people for sexually related things wouldn't be horrible i'm glad that we have people like laughing here to understand that you know should never do things like that right so you shouldn't have showed me your didn't want me to laugh at it yeah i know you'd run around talking to everybody because you were so proud about the fact that we, you know, kind of hung out with each other.

So that was cute. Yeah. Well, you were really proud to call me mid Jewish, especially so I had to set the record straight. You know, I just knew that it would bother the out of you to hit you in the only area in your life.

You actually have accomplished anything, which is like looking decent, but you know, it makes, I can't imagine how good it makes you feel. Someone with that weird of a to talk about the way that I look. So I'll let you have it. Never had any problems with it.

Never had any problems working it, but you know, the one over here with all the, all the trauma, you're the one over here. I've never steamed my floor, but apparently you've posted guides on steaming pussies. So congratulations.

It works. It made me, it made my period regular. It was just like a Yoni steam. Yeah. So that's, that's a different vibe from the you know yeah yeah different vibe as well like uh just it's one i don't know like maybe some people don't consider this an ian you

know it's just an element of life it's just people having sexual relationships and whatnot but like but it's is it really something that well i might i might jump in here chris because like if it came to light that jordan peterson was sleeping with the largest number of women in his audience orbiters yeah then fans then that would be big news if joe rogan was that would be it would be something that i you know like i'm i'm not one of these people that would be big news if joe rogan was that would be it would be something that i'd you know like i'm i'm not one of these people that make a big deal out of you know power dynamics and things like that but the fact is is that destiny is kind of like the joe rogan of streamers he's the king of the hill he's an important guy purely for pragmatic purposes a lot of wannabe influencers wannabe internet personalities um are drawn to

him for those reasons so there are those dynamics that are going on and it doesn't mean that these people are are victims and that he's necessarily a predator but it you know i think there are problems with these permeable boundaries and you know there are rules for professors for instance in terms of not sleeping with students or graduate students or even junior colleagues um and those rules are there for a good reason yeah well and but also i mean there is the issue about the dynamics and i think you know destiny is someone openly polyamorous you know, all of the people involved here are adults allowed to do whatever they want. And it's a bit like it's always sunny in Philadelphia. It feels like listening to this where, you know, people have done bad things, but they've done it to each other.

Like there was this one infamous episode where Destiny was sharing nude photos of some girl that he was sleeping with but i think she was a streamer i don't really remember the thing but like but the point is she found out because some of the people that he was sharing her nude photos with let her know that they'd seen them or whatever and he had she had access to his twitter account and she had dick pics of him so she went on to his twitter account and posted his dick pic out to his twitter audience and and then they debated about the ethics of who was you know wrong and destiny was like i shared this the select group of you know close friends and and whereas you put it to my 50 000 followers and you're just like who's in i mean destiny is not in the right but also the other person is not the right and like i say it's

a bit like it's always sunny in philadelphia where i'm like these are all people doing bad things and it's just like it's such a dramatic thing that they're dealing with and i get people like different things for some people they like these you know complicated messy relationships like all this stuff so you know whatever's your bag do your thing but the thing is this isn't done just in the privacy you know behind the scenes or whatever but that's also part of yeah it's live it's all public but yeah isn't that part of his or their philosophy or the culture which is yeah yeah it is but it means that all the people end up characters in this like drama and they're like the audience is aware of who slept with who

and end up like litigating it on stream and to just give an example of what this ends up sounding like i remember being like wow that was the best head i've ever got and somehow you internalize that as making that about my other partners which is crazy that's like that's like what you say after good story based on who you're you know talking to at any particular point in time but you know do you still think i sexually abused you or have you moved on from that part too um hard to say i don't really think about it that much anymore. Fuck. I thought I left a stronger impression.

Hold damn. No, no. Just the fear of phimosis really. Not, not anything else. Is that why your name is phimoid now? Yeah. You've really, I'm, whoa. Maybe it's like, uh, yeah, it, it remained dormant in my psyche.

I hope you get that figured out by the way. No, I'm good. Everything works fine over here, you know here you know yeah well it's hard to clean it i bet no actually it's pretty easy to clean just pull the thing back when you're not hard and you know you wash away but thanks for the tip uncut do i am i doing it he was a butyric acid too all right i've heard enough i've heard enough i i get you get it but like so is that much like a soap opera? It's a bit different. You know, I guess maybe I'm not watching modern soap operas where I'm sure the storylines have got more extreme and whatnot. No, I don't think it's a soap opera. I think it's like a reality TV, like Love Island, but it's R-rated. It's Gonzo gonzo love island right

but the the point you made matt which i think is an important one and i'll get off these clips after but it does overlap and end up with there being debates about is this to do with getting access to audiences and who is taking advantage of who and all this stuff and there are various you know accusations about who's been a stalker who's been revealing too much private information and so on and very often also to say many of these conversations involve people talking about self-harm talking about feeling suicidal and that they're all dramatic people so it is what it is you know i think talking about mental illness and something is just stuff that is a lot more common amongst younger people and amongst like a progressive liberal set but there are people

in the community or figures various streamers that have you know committed suicide or overdosed in drugs and stuff so like i do think very serious consequences can, can come about. And yeah, so just this clip, this is Destiny and that person Lav trying to litigate the exact timeline of like, when they're sexting or when you know, like things are happening in comparison to when Lav appears on stream with Destiny and gets like a kind of bump in subscribers that's okay but what i'm saying is we didn't have there was you present this as though you're coming on to this is just the impression that i think i'm not presenting anything okay i'm sorry it is being presented i'm using the passive voice now it's being presented as though you are coming

onto my stream into the combat zone crying in private because of how traumatic it is, and that I'm sexting you at the same time. But there's like at least a month or two, I think you just said two months of distance between us having any type of sexual relationship and the crazy combat sports that are going on my stream. No? No, any sort of sexual relationship.

Steven, you just said that in October, it could have been, we were still flirting. We had never had the conversation like, let's not do this. Our last in-person meetup, we had done something sexual together. There was no door that was closed. We were still absolutely flirty with each other.

And I think we both were open to sexual experiences in the future, right? Neither of us had a negative sexual experience with each other. So it's not like there was some some moment in which it was like not expected anymore so yes i still think that we had an open door policy for our sexual relationship okay i'm gonna re-implement or repeat the same question because what you just did was so like also hold on wait wait you just said a whole bunch of things yeah okay so the thing is in that point about consistency right he is approaching this topic a little bit like he does debates on israel or gaza or the n-word right where he's like well hold on let's get the timeline

straight right you say that i did this but you know and it's like but what they're discussing is uh and i guess that's that's the point as you me that there is no there's no there's no boundary there's no separation yeah like you said it's the point, Ajumia, that there is no... There's no boundary. There's no boundary. There's no boundary. There's no separation. Yeah, like you said, it's the same approach is taken if you're talking about the N-word or you're debating Jordan Peterson or you're talking about Gaza or whether or not you should,

it's right to murder a child hacker, right? Teenage, you'd probably say. A young person. But, yeah, it's all approached in exactly the same way so the impression i get is that destiny is always on the same speed he approaches all of these things with exactly the same energy yeah yeah well okay a slight contrast to that so like i i completely agree with you that there is that issue and just i think for the people listening to us you do have to realize like this is a different world right because you're never going to have the situation of matt and me having a conversation with the various orbiters that we've ended up having sex with and litigating you know like

who washes their penis appropriately on stream it's not gonna happen but with destiny he's gonna be on pierce morgan debating with ben shapiro and you won't have that with them either because that would be a huge controversy if jordan peterson was on stream talking about like his ability to give head so there's a there is a difference here and that's like a side point to what I wanted to mention but you said about it being consistent right and here's the one thing I want to say is that like we talked about him modulating in terms of you know the way that he interacts with people so I think this is both an illustration of this and an illustration of the dynamics we're talking about in regards to there being no boundaries with the

streaming audience in a way i mean there are boundaries right like there are things that he will kick people for he doesn't but in comparison to a normal person there are no boundaries and he did an interview with a journalist ryan grim from the intercept who's essentially takes a very strong pro-palestinian stance but also has been very critical around claims about rape on october 7th now i'm no fan of ryan grim uh also a big advocate of the lab leak incidentally but regardless i'm not going to litigate all the things they had in their conversation just he went on destiny stream they had a debate right and then brian grim gets off the call now in a normal environment that would be the stream ends

right the content is finished but destiny then talks to his audience about the interview right so here's him talking about brian grim i feel like you should push him gonna make a really solid claim about the conspiracy he obviously believes it's too easy for someone to turtle up and just be infinitely skeptical yeah i i tried to do that in the beginning i actually thought about that before the conversation i feel like i have like a very i truly it's i'm what's happening is i'm treating these people with kid gloves this is the reason why i said i don't like everybody in my separate is like oh he's not gonna go mainstream you're not gonna go mainstream like and then i'd always say like i don't really like the mainstream stuff as much the reason why

is because when i'm having debates with like tonka saw or andy warsky or britney venti or even like lauren southern or even like max and have right like by the end of this combo we can really get into like what we're talking about like oh you're do you believe this who do you believe that right it seems screaming it seems crazy and people will say like oh this is just debate pedophilia debate pervertry but in a way i feel like it's more honest and i feel like it's a little bit more telling than some of the mainstream stuff where like when i'm chatting with these people i have to be so careful because he was already he was already getting like pretty triggered okay yeah so have a debate you have a discussion

then afterwards you do a bit of a post-mortem um with your audience yeah but also that fact where he's like people are in his audience are talking about him going mainstream and it's going to chill his edge. But he's like, no, I'm not going to do that because I don't like how constrained I have to be in dealing with mainstream people. Because with the online streamers, it can be chaotic. We can be screaming. We can argue and whatnot. we can you know argue and what not but like when it's a mainstream journalist I have to

think about like how much pushback they'll take before they flip out or this kind of thing and he talks a little bit more about this like as soon as in the beginning where he's like as a journalist and I'm trying really hard like are you trying to little bro me dude like what do you mean as a journalist like as a journalist let me tell you about 82

in Lebanon okay let me tell you about like what do you know about 82 besides Twitter headline what do you mean let me tell you about 82 in lebanon okay let me tell you about like what do you what do you know about on 82 besides twitter headline what do you mean let me tell you about the is he didn't he had no idea why the phalanges were so mad about the plo and everything you had no idea about the assassination of the christian president all this shit he didn't know any of this shit but he's trying to cite twitter headlines at me don't quote the old text at me okay i was there when the wiki was written all right but anyway um i can already tell that he's like on the verge of breaking as i'm asking questions and if this is like an old-school like blood sports debate, right

If it was an old-school blood sports debate Then we could have that conversation where I could just scream at him like tell me what you think happened Do you think the Jews? Do you think the Jews are are trying to you know? Yeah, concoct propaganda invent mass rapes like blah blah like but but but yeah but if i break somebody too much like that then um yeah it's over i mean i can understand where he's coming from where he could feel that those those edgy online type debates are more authentic even if you're arguing with an anti-semiteite or a neo-Nazi or something. Yeah.

But is it the, the argument that he dismissed, isn't it kind of true that it is kind of a bit porny? Like it is a bit voyeuristic. It does give a thrill to hear people say terrible things and then to shout at them and so on. Like, isn't,

isn't that somewhat true? Isn't that part of the appeal yeah i i think so and i i think we haven't talked about it yet but maybe now is a good time one of the criticisms that he often gets is around like his interaction with red pilled or you know nick Nick Fuentes, who's essentially like a neo-Nazi, right? And debating with him. And now, let me see if I can show you how destiny justifies that, okay? So, well, one thing, first of all, is that I do think he does a good job of outlining why that sort of shit appeals to people, right? So he explains it like this.

Yeah, I mean, I think there is a, I think we've made really good strides in society bolstering a lot of different types of minorities. So be it women or people of color or LGBT people, but it always feels like on the backs of all those movements, we always have to make sure everybody knows how much we hate white people or we want to kick down on men or whatever.

And I think that when you do this for year after year after year, over a decade, you get this kind of growing sentiment of young white guys or even young men in general who just kind of feel left out or they feel like they don't have figures to look up to, or they feel like they're constantly being told they're not good, they're toxic, et cetera, et cetera, all the time. And when that happens, you get this hunger from that group of people to find figures to look towards.

Jordan Peterson filled that role originally, and now it's like all these red pill spaces and Andrew Tate that are kind of exploding and filling that new void. And what's the best way you find in disarming a lot of their arguments? I mean, it really depends on the person. I mean, none of their arguments are based on very good data. So if somebody wants to sit down and actually go through studies, that could be a good way to do it.

There's more to say on that but like i think he's he is right there about a lot of the dynamics that he's talking about in regards why jordan peterson why andrew t appeal right i mean you know i think we've talked about this as well matt um he contrasts this to the message that the left provides to people in that demographic and I agree also with the way that he presents that here I think what people really need to see on that side is people want to be happy and enjoy life and sometimes in the left it's really fucking hard to do that right so I look on the right and I see Andrew Tate like what's Andrew Tate telling me he's telling me buy a sword be the master of your own destiny go get you know work at bugatti's get bitches can do all this

stuff it's like okay well if i go to the left what are they telling me it's like well you need to feel bad because you're white and you're systemically oppressing everybody and capitalism is evil and you're privileged and everything you do is just because you're mom and dad it's like okay well fuck me right i felt like the left comes down on you so hard and it makes you feel like shit for everything in society you know like oh those shoes those are made by in a slave shop or oh that food that you bought the person is a victim of capitalism and they probably don't have a pension of what it's like okay and then on the right like you get like all these people that feel really empowering they drive you further and further so i feel like on the left oftentimes i feel like my important role

is to show that like hey i'm here i've got a lot of really progressive beliefs but i'm a happy person i live a fun life like i make money i don't think that any of this is evil and yeah having having like more figures like that i think would be really important to show that you're not demonizing success and that you can be a left-leaning person and be aware of all these kind of social issues that affect us without being fucking miserable all the time and feeling like you're you know an evil person yeah so when he yeah yeah i mean when he's in this mode, he's very appealing to someone like me. I think he's speaking to something real there. And he's talking about if you want to win hearts and minds,

then, you know, it's sad but true. But you have these people like Donald Trump or Andrew Tate, and they're horrible people. They're a bad influence on society. But they are sending the message, which is you're fine, everything's okay, be a winner, do whatever you want. And you may not like it, but that's an appealing message to people as opposed to feeling bad about things.

So, you know, when he talks about how he's positioning himself, I don't really have any criticisms there, Chris. No, and again, so I'll get to the nick fuentes stuff right but so in terms of how he frames it so this this is him you know talking to a mainstream journalist about like why he interacts with people like this and actually this this journalist that he's speaking to is a bit of a dave rubin lex friedman type so but in any case they ask this question i know that you've at some point collaborated with nick fuentes who's a very controversial person now i want to know what your stance is on bringing certain people onto your platform and giving them exposure albeit you're

you know contending with them and disagreeing with them and maybe raising really good points that go against what they're saying what do you you think about giving them, I would say another, like a microphone? It's a very, very, very challenging balancing act, but I'll tend to hear out most people with kind of like that open mind philosophy, like come in, talk to me. And then I'm going to try to tell you why I think you're wrong. While being as empathetic or understanding as possible, the something unique that I provide that I think is really important to some of these alternative communities is I'm like the only person that is progressive that like isn't fucking unhinged. And I think it's really good sometimes to show people like, hey, you can be pro LGBT.

You can have like blue hair being like weird relationships or whatever. But I can be like a funny, cool, charismatic, like we can have fun and chill. And I can be like understanding of you and not be like super judgmental or try to cancel and be horrible for a lot of people. understanding of you and not be like super judgmental or try to cancel it'd be horrible for a lot of people i think that seeing somebody like that on my side is really important because representation for progressives is absolutely fucking dog shit right now on the internet well he does sound a little bit i mean sometimes sometimes uh well yeah but yes he does but he's you know here he's kind of casting it that like especially in comparison to the people that he's talking about you know the also the very fact that he's able to roll with them in a way like you know appear with andrew

teeter whatever and kind of punch back and whatnot that this gives an impression of like not the scolding left but as like you know i kind of yeah the left is is edgy and it's just saying stop being a dick to women and stop giving rich people extra money and all that kind of thing right that's yeah like edgy edgy alt leftism not not not deep platforming and not out of the academy exactly and he's he's making that exact argument so to some extent when i'm platforming other people that's a thing that i'm keeping in mind um there's a lot of those communities that I've interacted with who I'm like the first positive representation of like a left leaning person they've ever seen. That's one thing. on to like laugh and giggle and like play games like generally like with fun test it was a lot of debating a lot of arguing over different points um so hopefully one i can demonstrate to his

audience that there are at least some arguments on the other side um and then two my audience can see the arguments i'm having and then they've got like more tools to like deal with that type of stuff in the future yeah i'll give some credit to that point of view because one of the things i learned on twitter and the interesting thing about twitter is you just you know you bump into random people all over the world and and I've bumped into my fair share of right-wing Americans or internationally people that are very very right-wing and they generally stumbled across me just because I'd made a funny joke or something like that and then they said something that was funny there was no mention of politics and then a little bit later so they already decided they liked me and I thought they were fine too and then they find out that i'm not a conservative on my political opinions

are in their mind associated with this stereotype they've got of the bleeding edge progressives and i can tell that they're a little bit fascinated by me because i seem like a you know a normal person and so and that in itself surprised me and that you cannot, like there is truth to that, which is that in large segments of the United States and elsewhere, people are operating on kind of crazy stereotypes of each other because that's the impression they get from the news, I guess. So, I think there, like i just want to give

him credit i think there is validity to his argument there which is going on those you know talking to dave rubin or whoever right these you know just just just being even just a little bit funny right that is a helpful thing to do though here's the counter argument so like let me just play a clip of him talking to nick fuentes okay this isn't even one of those like super debate things this is like him on his stream talking to fuentes like if you're trying to build a big tent conservative movement you're kind of fucking yourself by at the outset saying that women can't make real contributions to your political movement don't you think that's like kind of fucking you? Like, why would you why would you put yourself in that world?

Yeah. You know, I've heard that from people on my side. People are like, you're you're excluding 50 percent of the people in the country from your little movement. But here's the thing, Destiny, is that, you know, if we say that women can't do politics, then women not being in our politics is not a huge loss. You know what I'm saying? And this kind of gets to the point of, I don't believe in democracy. I don't believe in, let's get half the people or even a plurality or lots of the people.

If we get a smaller percentage of really good, a really solid demographic cohort, percentage of really good like a really solid demographic cohort that will be better than if we have more people you know or that could be better than having simply more people it's what kinds of people do you have you know like for example we have a lot of tech guys a lot of tech guys are very right wing um you know i don't really want to get into that because that's like a whole different conversation but there's a lot of like crypto tech people that are very right wing a lot of like young white savant autistic types are like very some of them obviously very left wing but some of them very right wing and it's like those are high impact frags okay to have like to have or high impact frag you can say that but like look at look at the type of movement you're building at the end of the day one you're gonna have a hard

time winning votes if it comes to that point because now you've written off women completely and two now you're like even furthering this huge kind of like incel problem or caricature or accurate stereotype of your side because you're literally explicitly excluding women from the movement there i just want to highlight that like they're sitting you know like the way that destiny presents it is kind of like, you know, look, I'm going to engage with these people, their ideas exist and whatever. But like, the reality is, you're sitting down with someone who's waffling on about the Jews, like, you know, controlling 70%, or is it 50%? You guys told me you used to blame the Jews on 70% of your problems, and now it's 30 to 50%.

So you seem like you've changed a little bit, Nick. Okay, who knows? knows and maybe who knows maybe maybe in two years maybe the jews will only be 20 percent at fault for the issues in society okay there's a wild world out there who knows then in some circumstances it's just a whole bunch of people talking like racist misogynistic shit and it's like the assholes of the internet and what you talked about about the spectacle is sure destiny's there like to argue the left-wing case and maybe a couple of people are being picked up but like really they're getting a sensational event like lefty person enters you know to debate free red-pilled guys and it's yeah it's not this high-minded thing it's content it's drama and it's and it's like making content with the worst fucking people on the internet you know i'm telling

you you only focus on world war ii because you're programmed to dude you'll never talk about stalin like that why who do you think you're talking and it also proves the point if you're saying hitler is the worst person of all time but you're looking at all the other leaders that have caused genocide on other minorities you don't see them as evil people but hitler is the most evil genocide of the jewish people you can't say you don't see them as evil people what is that insane dichotomy of course you don't think i'm talking about why is hitler the worst because he because they led an unprecedented systematic elimination on who's up of on jewish people on the romani people on polish people on on gay people and and do people criticize them because of all the others what group did hitler genocide

that people are really afraid about why do they say that hitler's the worst of all time the two biggest ones are jewish people and soviet people that's why russia to this day defines it does anybody care about the hitler genocide on soviets nobody talks about that all of russia's poor policy why do you think you're talking about going do you think you're lying you're lying right now because you you and i covered hassan piker saying hitler wasn't bad for invading poland that's he was bad for killing jews and you covered that and you changed your position okay read the live chat more is that your notes that looks like a live chat for more i want to reply yeah like yeah no i i know i understand i can't square that circle of the

platform or not to platform you know i don't have a a nice pat answer to that but yeah i mean it isn't always the best thing to do especially if you're very famous to be spending time recording content with a white supremacist like nick fuentes yeah and like you know the nick fuentes is a what's even the way to describe him like he's uh you know he wants a catholic totalitarian state, ethno-nation state, white supremacist. He's somebody that Alex Jones thinks goes too far in his right-wing ethno-nationalist. He was making jokes about the Holocaust and how many died.

Max says, if I take one hour to cook a batch of cookies and Cookie Monster has 15 ovens, working 24 hours a day, every day for five years, how long does it take cookie monster to make six million batches of cookies i don't know that's a good question certainly uh oh no no it doesn't really sound correct to me wait a second it takes one hour to cook a batch of cookies and you have 15 ovens probably in four different kitchens right doing 24 hours a day every day for five years how long would it take you to make six million hmm i don't know it certainly wouldn't be five years right uh the math doesn't seem to add up

there the math doesn't quite seem to add up there i don't think you'd result uh in six million maybe 200 to 300 000 cookies and i And I think the Red Cookie Association said something like that, probably 200 to 300,000 cookies baked, probably. And in addition, you know, in this hypothetical, I imagine that if you took aerial photographs over the kitchens, you would need to see certain smokestacks to release the smoke from baking the cookies. And the smokestacks would project certain shadows but i guess they're not visible in the aerial photographs taken over the kitchens like he's he's pure edgy right-wing neo-nazi shit but when destiny interacts with him so destiny will say

when he's talking about it that like he's not there just having you know fun time with nick like he's pushing him and he's arguing and he's kind of exposing his audience to counter arguments but like listen to these kind of interactions which are from him discussing things with nick and i think this is why he gets accused of like being poly so um he's talking about lauren sovereign with nick franth is here i don't think he's talking about anybody relevant now but like in the reverse like she weeded herself out as untrustworthy i just i guess like because when i think of because people always ask me um why do i talk to people like you or people like lauren people ask me this all the time it's one of the

biggest criticisms i get and my response is that i respect you too because both of you are working on building real political projects. You've got your whole movement. You've got a website. You do AFPAC. I respect that. Even if I think your views are batshit insane, I respect the work you put in. But I would say the same with Lauren too.

Like, she did documentaries on topics when people are barely willing to do, like, prepared content on YouTube. And the fact that somebody would go out and, like, film stuff on the ground and do, like, a whole show. She did this shit about South Africa. However much I disagree with farmlands and that message or whatever, at it shows like a commitment to a project well say say what you like about nazism chris at least it's an ethos um yeah yeah like it's just because he's talking about you know content which is absolutely the most BS sensationalized polemical bullshit but he's you know kind of i respect the hustle and i feel like that's not misrepresenting to say that he does do that like he does call them out on their you know racist and ethno-nationalist beliefs and all that kind of thing but like there is an element of it

where it's an elder content creator talking to a younger content creator and like i've got another an example of that dynamic you know like she was you said she's not as much of a nazi as she was before i wouldn't characterize it quite that way but you remember i mean years ago she was in the fucking mediterranean torpedoing boats of refugees i'm exaggerating yeah and five years ago i was on film saying shit like i think we could kill conservatives and be morally justified. Nick, I know you don't believe this,

but part of getting older is you kind of mellow out a little bit and you're still young. You're 23, but I bet when you're 26, you're going to look back and you're like, you know what? Maybe this shit was a little bit too extreme, you know?

And again, I, like I said, maybe the Jewish thing comes down to 20%, maybe up to 25, but like, it just, that's like a,

that's not a grifter thing. That's literally every single human being you talk to. If you any 30 year old you think you were a little bit crazy about some ideas when you were 25 yeah maybe right everybody had a phase where they obsessed over ayn rand a lot of kids today are having phases where they obsess over marxism and non-binary but like you fucking grow out of it you get a little bit older you mellow out a bit your temperament changes that's like a natural part of aging it doesn't mean you're grifting and it doesn't mean your core political beliefs have changed yeah i just i just realized that nick frantos was born in 1998 we're such as kids he's a toddler but it doesn't matter like he's a neo-nazi

fucking toddler but oh yeah but uh yeah i guess the theme the theme that i'm detecting is that destiny treats everybody the same like he's just as likely to have a sexual or romantic relationship with with a fan as opposed to someone he met outside of work he's he's just as likely to to talk to nick fuentes and treat him a certain way as talk to jordan peterson or to talk to anyone left, like everybody gets the same treatment. And I guess that's the philosophy. Like it's this, his philosophy is that he is a certain way and he has these certain, you know, ethos or certain beliefs

and he applies it absolutely equivalently across all domains of his life and all decisions. Yeah. And I feel like if we talk to him about all of this you know we we kind of raise these issues he would maybe concede some parts but like i think he would stand by his positions right and and in some respect we are just saying right well we have a different set of standards that we think are better so we are expressing our position and like destiny doesn't have to agree with it right like he can live his life

out in the open with no boundaries he can hang around friendly with neo-nazis he's not a neo-nazi right i think that's anybody that is mistaking him for endorsing that point of view like he's not and he is not somebody that doesn't care about you know any political views or that kind of thing it's not like that either so in many respects i feel like he is saying these are my positions this is what i'm gonna do and i'm gonna defend it and i'm gonna continue defend it and i'm going to continue doing that and other people can disagree other people can criticize me but that's my judgment on stuff and i i respect that i genuinely do respect because he's not pretending to be something he isn't like i i don't get a lot of his orbiters and whatnot they're all constantly psychoanalyzing about why he's you know why he's doing anything

and what his motive and like i don't find them particularly puzzling in many respects i see him as very similar to me in certain respects psychologically in terms of like becoming very hyper fixated on topics enjoying debating things and going into you know listen to arguments that he doesn't like and and like kind of litigating things like all of this stuff i recognize in myself and my own personality and when he describes how annoyed he is by people kind of not being consistent or misrepresenting what they're saying i feel that same frustration um but i i don't share any of the characteristics which are the kind of enjoyment of dealing with interpersonal streamer drama stuff or making edgy takes or that kind of thing so yeah it's just to say that like i don't think

there's a big enigma at the heart of destiny's content like i think it's pretty much what it says on the tin yeah like it is what it seems to be um like if it seems like he's living his life out in public, then that's what's going on. If it seems like he's, you know, having these very extreme kinds of conversations, whether it's about something that would normally be extremely personal or whether it's talking to Nick Fuentes or whatever, then, you know, that's what it is. This is the content. What strikes me most is how at sea i am i guess in this subculture like i think it is i think there is a generational thing even if he's not that much younger than you but this is a culture of people that have grown up with the

internet that have grown up sort of post groper post everything post irony everything and now there is a great i want to say flattening i suppose like he'll engage with everyone in the same way he'll engage with nick fuentes and the arguments he brings to the table in the same way he'll engage with ben shapiro or a bipolar woman who's an influencer who he's slept with with right i see him engaging with everyone in exactly the same way and doing it publicly to be clear you mean like his like kind of approach is similar but he does match the energy to a large extent so like if somebody is you know more relaxed and not going personal and keeping things you you know, at a kind of high-level debate style thing. He does that, right?

He doesn't automatically slip into, you know, debate role, the worst excess of it. So, like, in that respect, I feel he does modulate what he does. But the underlying core. Oh, yeah. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, no, I didn't mean to imply that. Yes, he's certainly got very different styles that he could bring to bear

depending on whether he's doing a mainstream interview or it's a stream or he's having a debate. But I guess it's that ethos which is engage with everything, you know, sleep with everybody. Talk to everyone and do it all publicly and stream it and then get everyone to talk about what we think of it he's talked about that being protective in a way because like there's nothing he needs to really fear because he makes everything open right so like there's not going to be the huberman style

expose because it's all there and like all already on his streams with him talking to people about it but i i one other point that i would make about you know the ecosystems and the generational divide like i am sure many people in our audience will be like what the fuck is all this what the fuck is this but but also my mom listens to this chris so i don't know what she's gonna think of it yeah yeah but it's good to know this exists and also because destiny is becoming more mainstream right he's cropping up and pierce morgan debating with ben shapiro having a debate with alex jones i'm not saying he's mainstream alex jones but you know that debate got attention and i think that one aspect that's notable is his online community we would

be remiss not to mention this matt because it's infamous right so his community is sometimes referred to as the daliban right dgg and he has a very active and large subreddit and to give an example when we posted on our patreon that we are going to do destiny next within ours that was screenshotted and on his subreddit with like you know quite a few comments at least by our standards right and that typically doesn't happen so that's like an activated fan base right and they're infamous online because people regard them as very uh well like yeah maybe like a like a swarm of bees if you if you kick yes if you kick the ghost of the hive they will swarm you right and maybe people would say like hyper autistic bees or you know like anyway very online bees right and i don't doubt at all that they have the ability to abuse people or make people's lives

a misery. However, I will say, from my observation of that community, it is very much like they're not randomly going on campaigns against random people, right? against random people right like they basically end up you know feuding or or criticizing people that they think are misrepresenting destiny or are attacking him or doing things so like destiny will point out that people go online like you know we played some clips of all these people talking about destiny in the stream and there's many there's many others that we could play of people you know just just completely crapping on him talking about what a terrible person he is what abusive person and and all that is and then if he responds they will immediately say he set his community upon me right because i'm a smaller content creator and so they

he makes a point they can say what they want he can't say anything back and if like hasan criticizes him and he says something stupid and people's uh you know he highlights something hasan says hasan will say destiny's obsessed with me but they equally are mentioning him or they're feuding with him and i i do feel that there's a little bit where I don't, like I'm not worried about the Destiny community coming after us because even if they don't agree with our take, I feel like they will be fine that we have, you know, attempted to present them accurately. And they might take issue with various things or whatever,

but I think they do end up, you know, targeting people that are in the drama streams that are doing all the feuds and stuff. But if you're not a part of that ecosystem and you're, you know, you're not going to be feeding drama content or sparring with Destiny on Twitter or that kind of thing,

I don't think they really care that much, right? Like it's, that's what I would say is like i i do think it's a big community it can breed or you know target people but i from what i've observed of them it is very much part of that ecosystem where all the big creators have their communities and you know destinies was one of the first and it's one of the biggest so that's in in a way it's kind of you know inevitable and like when we've made a couple of videos or a couple of content that's critical of hassan we just get tons of response from hassan fans right like yeah you know it's inevitable it's inevitable in a way so yeah i mean one one little

thing that you mentioned to me chris that i i don't want to not mention is um you mentioned a little episode with that um that he mentioned offhandedly about him paying his youtube editor what was the deal with that yeah yeah so like on a recent interview with the ice coffee are, um, he meant he was talking about, you know, his YouTube channel or whatever. And he, so my website is where I have my own subs and people can donate through

there. I think on that I'd make about 250,000 a year. I think it's what I made last year. I think around two, like an email thing or no, it's just, you go to destiny.gg and then you can subscribe there. You can donate there.

It just, it runs as its own completely side, like child and ecosystem or whatever. Oh, so you stream on there as you? No, it's just you go to destiny.gg and then you can subscribe there. You can donate there. It just, it runs as its own completely side like chat and ecosystem or whatever. Oh, so you stream on there as well? No, it's just an embed from like YouTube or Twitch. Oh, okay. Well, not Twitch, but yeah. YouTube ad revenue is really good.

I probably run like anywhere from 40 to 60,000 a month off of that. And then I've got like two other channels that make around like 20 to 30,000 a month. I pay like 45% of all that ad revenue goes to my YouTube editor who's definitely overpaid, August. month. I pay like 45% of all that ad revenue goes to my YouTube editor, who's definitely overpaid, August. No, I'm just kidding.

45% of that? That's a lot. Yeah, I do, yeah. Wait, to all of your channels? Yeah, he gets a lot of money. No. Yeah. When did you agree to that deal?

A long time ago. Before it was making much? I mean, it's like 100K a month. Basically, it's, yeah, a month. Basically, it's, yeah, he does really well. But basically, the way that I saw it

when I initially did it was, No ideas, Jack. When I initially did it, my idea was basically that I want him to be as invested in the channel growth as I am and I don't want to do anything.

I don't manage anything on my YouTube. He does every thumbnail, every video, nothing. I never look at it ever. I get a check every, basically,

month from Google. And it's completely satisfactory. 100 100 yeah um if i went back in time i probably would have started at a lower rate probably but like i'm okay with him making a lot of money he's made me a ton of money he's made me like really successful and he mentioned that he um i think he said he pays the editor 45 percent or so of the income right which works out at like 30 000 or something and so again an indication of how much 30 000 a month dollars right right so that's for you know over over that for his editor we're talking huge amounts of of money here well i think he said that he mentioned it kind of ruefully that uh that he you know he said he set up this deal he didn't think that the the youtube channel would necessarily make a huge amount of money it ended up making a lot more money

than he expected but he'd already agreed with the editor guy that he yeah i mean he was talking about people being you know compensated fairly and i think so it's important but he but he did express that you know it is a lot of money that he's given, but whatever, like, but the point was, he did not present it as it's an illustration of his fundamental political morals being expressed in his output or whatever. And if this was a figure like Hassan, it would absolutely be something that he was shouting

from the rooftops. Yeah, this is a this is a wonderful example of him doing like a workers cooperative and um look how generous he is etc no he presented it just as a like a bit of a miss not a mistake but uh he made a deal but he but he's yeah he's doing something good he's doing something good and he believes in you know like spreading the wealth but it's yeah it's a lot of money to give to someone so yeah i'm sure his editor is happy and i'm i'm sure at the same time that there are all the relationships you know that people feel that they they weren't fairly compensated or whatever but so we're not endorsing destiny as like yes he's a you know a great boss but but

the point is he didn't use that as like a a component of his moral stature yeah like to say right that's my you know i'm a i'm a liberal person and so i do it like like this it was more just yeah that was something that happened so So I think that is a distinction worth noting. Okay. Yeah. Well, to sum up my impressions, Chris, I'm a very confused boomer at the moment. Like on one hand,

I just don't agree with Justin's philosophy in terms of living your entire life in the public making everything part of the show and and i do think that a lot of those debates and a lot of those litigations of drama is is entertainment and it's you know you could i guess anything that people find entertaining is fine in a way but i in the same way that i don't like love island i don't like that stuff i think there are concerns about having sexual relationships with your orbiters um yeah and and they just are and um and i know it's a different world where everyone's polyamorous and everyone's online and so on. But that's that.

But, you know, I think what I'll say in favour of Destiny is that as far as I can tell, he's completely consistent in that he does seem to act and behave in line with his lights such as they are and and if you put aside all of the drama and you put aside the you know speaking loosely shall we say which you know which which i which i have a fair bit of tolerance for because i appreciate if you've been streaming for whatever 15 years you're doing it for 10 hours a day there will be stuff right um yeah certainly i've found myself getting a bit loose at the end of a three or three hours of recording and we go okay that's enough so never yes you have but but there are there are levels but i was gonna say if you put if you put the drama and the scandal type stuff aside, and you just look at the more substantive political points or commentary that it's perfect, not to say I endorse it,

but compared to most of the gurus we look at, he's of higher quality. He's certainly so much smarter than someone like Hassan Paika or the Red Scare people or other people that at least mentally are put in the same ecosystem. So in the end, Chris, I don't know what to think. in the same ecosystem so in the end chris i don't know i don't know what to think i just it's just been an interesting journey to get to know um someone that's living in a different world in a very different way yeah for me yeah well before i get to my wrap-up my i'll i'll just play a couple of final clips we've had quite a few but there's a few more to finish off with. And most of these are actually

a little bit more positively tinged. So maybe a positive note to end on. One, I think is slamming academics, which, and with some justification. I'm here for a bit. Yeah, let's see what he has to say about people like us. When I have to argue against a lot of these people i've spent a lot of time reading research reading studies spending time on wikipedia figuring out like i've learned so much shit

because it's not my area of expertise right and all this research that i'm doing like all this everything every time like a new conspiracy theory comes out like i have to like do more reading and more research to get like a handle on like immunology viruses, like all this shit. I wish that people in the academic world spent a little bit more time on public outreach because I don't think that like the job should be left to people like me to do it. I,

my, all of my ability and bonuses and stats in life are on this kind of like rhetorical and argumentative side. And I'm pretty smart so I can do the research too, but God damn, like rather than me who's really good at debate trying to research my way up there why not take a guy that's really really well researched and then have him just like practice a little bit in terms of debate

or conversation i've seen the hotes guy talk before and i don't think he would be the good choice for that rfk debate he seems pretty knowledgeable but he doesn't handle himself very well in conversations so i i wish that more academics would practice that outreach. Because at the end of the day, if whatever you're studying in academia, you know, dies on the walls of your classroom, what's the point of anything you're doing, right? You might believe all of this and can prove all of it,

but nobody in society does. What value do you have to anybody? Yeah, that's very frustrating to me. So you think the debate should happen? I think the debate should happen, but you need to find academics who are warm. What do you think of that, Chris? Well, he was talking about like Joe Rog rogan and the peter hotez right debate about vaccine said and and i do agree with him like first of all he's making clear

his limitations and that he recognizes them that he's not an expert in these topics like he does do research and i would also make this point that relative to streamers and many of the people he's debating with he completely wipes the floor with them in terms of research because he just does basic research right then he checks up sources and he writes out points and that kind of thing and it sounds really basic but it's it's actually um rare in that arena so he is correct that he's good at debating and that academics by and large including people that are much better versed aren't good at that right and so so he is right like if it would be good if more academics trained a little bit in how to debate or how to present things and you know were willing to do so but the bit where i

slightly disagree is he says you know what's the point if you're just in a classroom you know teaching people about things like what difference does that make and the answer is well that is the reason that you have doctors and like most academics are not like what they're actually doing is teaching the fucking subject that they've they've mastered yeah that's right i saw a similar comment um which was that oh you know the academy should start valuing like book sales instead of just valuing oh you've done an academic publication that was maybe read by a handful of people and on on the surface that seems to make sense right you know a book that's influenced a million people is far more important than some niche academic thing that's that's hit 10 or 20 people but that's the nature of specialized

expertise sometimes when you're researching something like mRNA vaccines then actually your empirical work just needs to be read by the 10 or 20 other people that are that are working on that specific area and in the end what you're looking to do is to generate knowledge that's going to inform some technology or indeed train specialists in a very particular area you're not trying to educate the entire world about the nuances of exactly how this thing works that's not to say that isn't an important role and i think it is important for you know anti-conspiracy anti-anti-vax people like Destiny, who is like a Swiss army knife, you know, like he said, he does far more research than your typical online personality. But, you know, he can still only be superficial in a way

because you're a jack-of-all-trades. You're debating a different topic every week or two. But, you know, I think there's room for both. And if people like Destiny or anyone in his position can simply access good information from, say, vaccinology researchers like what we've had on our show, Chris, they can consult with them, right? They can get, you know, he's good at debating. They know about vaccines. They can either read their articles, their more popular articles, or even consult with them like you and I have done.

And, you know, can have both sides of the coin sorted out. Yeah, and I'm more concerned about academics who, what Destiny talks about there, like maxing up their social media or presentation competencies, especially you run the risk of generating a Huberman. Yeah, or a Jordan Peterson, right? Yeah, so be careful what you wish for. But, you know, on the other hand, Debunk the Funk, Dan Wilson, very good communicator, great knowledge. So, you know, there's plenty of people that adopt this role, but Destiny is right that, like,

there are not so many people that can do what he does especially engaging with people that are very very rhetorical and he mentioned there that his skills are in rhetoric and argumentation and debate right like yeah yeah he's very he's very upfront about what he's good at and what his limitations are and i yeah i do like that he doesn't like to be dismissed as a debate bro and accused of just doing rhetoric because he points out that people are often that they don't explain what that means and they kind of you know they just reference that he reads wikipedia or whatever as if like that means that he has no knowledge of about topics but in most cases like going to wikipedia first as a reference

for a topic it is a good jumping off point and it is a place that gives you like resources and if you only read a Wikipedia article yes that would be a problem but as a starting point it's perfectly reasonable yeah and look and I do sort of agree with his more fundamental point which is that academics generally scientists whoever we need to make a little bit of space in our lives for that making an effective conduit between specialized evidence-based scientific knowledge and the general public you don't necessarily have to be a you know a master debater as they say you don't need to be good at public speaking or or you know giving catchy slogans and stuff but you can be part of the the conduit and unfortunately academia doesn't doesn't reward academics for doing that most of the time so you know it's fundamentally right yeah yeah and so another clip matt of him

talking a little bit about his process you know he was talking about his fundamental his views can't change he's mainly about trying to develop a process for critically evaluating sources and locating information. And I agree with that. That's all good. But he talks a little bit about ways that he might challenge his views or try to pressure test them. So this process might include, can I find views that I had on this six months ago when I was in a less emotionally charged state? Would I still agree with those views? Or was it different then? Maybe I'm letting my emotional state dictate how I feel now. How would I feel if somebody posited this argument on the right? Somebody that is a political opponent of mine, would it try to

posit this argument? Would I still agree with it? I might think, I might try to think like, what would it take to convince me out of said position? Like what, what are some arguments that, that would be good arguments and encounter to mine? Oftentimes what I'll do is I actually take out a little notepad and I'll start like jotting down like, this is what I believe about this, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'll write all the arguments. I'll write the counter arguments. I'll try to write the counter counter arguments. And then I'll go back and forth until I feel like I've reasonably like weeded out like my position. Like I understand the, not only arguments for the arguments against to a great degree. So I spent a back and forth until i feel like i've reasonably like weeded out like my position like i understand

the not only arguments for the arguments against um to a great degree so i spent a lot of time auditing my own thought process whenever i go through like big ordeals like this i usually take a step back and i try to think like okay well what just happened um why did it happen why did the communities react the way they did what can i do to change that if i do want to change that that matt that sounds like a much more reflective person than like a brett weinstein remember brett weinstein talking about how he checks himself maybe he says he asks heller and eric and a little less so eric no or he speaks to his anti-vax friends yeah or destiny's talking or he checks whether or not everyone else disagrees with him which is proof that he's right yeah right and and destiny as we've seen he is not somebody that is willing to give up unpopular positions just because you know they're unpopular they're a bad

look i think a bad look or a bad hill to die yeah yeah like so he will take unpopular positions but what he is describing here it is an academic style process of like considering counter positions and trying to think about what would be your position if like the facts changed on this or that, like, yes, it's good debating tactics in general to know, but it's, it is good epistemic practices. I feel like he's, and I don't thinkistemic practices, I feel. And I don't think anything there is disingenuous. I think that is how you hear from this topic.

That's what I was going to say. If I heard one of our other gurus say stuff like that, I would perhaps suspect that this is stuff that they're saying as a self-presentation thing to make them sound good. But, I mean, everything we know about destiny seems to be that you know whatever his faults are he does seem to be entirely authentic in in everything that he's he's saying and doing um you know this is disagree as i might with his methods with his choices and certainly some of his opinions he doesn't seem to be someone who just says stuff because it it sounds good yeah and so just to say as well matt you know we can contrast this exactly remember the clip that we always play of eric and brett saying if

everybody's telling you you're wrong that's how you know you're over the target and you're right. And that feels great, right? That feels like you're doing something right. Weirdly enough, they're being authentic too, I think. It's just that they're deranged. Well, they are. They are being authentic. But compare that to this sentiment.

Let's talk about this real quick. So my position on who can achieve what I think genuinely that most people in society can become 99th percentile at any given thing. If they put their like mind and attention to it, that you could take the dumbest person off the street, throw them into a studio for an hour a day. And in one year, there'll be a pretty good piano player, like a surprisingly good piano player that people can reach a surprising level of competency in any given ability in any given field within reason, right? Obviously a quadriplegic isn't going to be a 100 yard dash or whatever, but like within any given field, I think people can become like surprisingly competent. I generally extend this view to myself. I don't think that I am exceptionally intelligent.

I don't think I was gifted or born with some kind of manager brain or some master high IQ. I think that I just have a pretty good set of tools for evaluating, you know, what beliefs are good, what beliefs are bad. And then I try to adhere to that. Anytime I step into an area where a whole bunch of people are telling me that I'm wrong about something, and I insist that I'm right about something. One thing that I have to accept if I want to be intellectually honest is there's a good chance that you're incorrect, rather than you're correct correct and all of those other people are incorrect so when i'm in an area where i have multiple communities saying hey destiny you're really fucking wrong about something uh there's a there's a huge process that i have to go through a pretty big introspective

process i have to go through to figure out like well hold on like am i being full of shit right now that's just i mean it's normal what he's describing there it's just a normal human reaction but the point i want to contrast that with is the normal reaction that we hear expressed by you know the guru figures that we cover you know and as we've talked about destiny still strikes out positions which are unpopular or that you know put him in a different position than a lot of people but the point is when he's doing that i think he genuinely is putting an effort into it yeah i think he's being genuine also in what might sound like being self-effacing and saying that you know i don't think i'm so brilliant i don don't think I'm whatever. Like I think how he views himself is true, which is that he's someone who's done essentially a very specialised job

for many, many years and he's worked at it just like anyone, you know, who specialises in something, works at something, and he's done his, what is it, 10,000 hours? What's the number of hours he's supposed to do to get good at something? And he thinks he is good at it, rightly so. He is. he is good good at debating and so on and it's because he's worked at it not because he's some polymath or some galaxy brain yeah this is one thing that i would say that a lot of the people that criticize destiny's performance and like at the beat with jordan peterson or whatever they vastly uh overestimate how they would perform in the same situation.

Like, Destiny performed very well in his recent debate with Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro and other figures. Like, I do feel that there's a lot of backseat driving from people who, you know,

imagine that they would have the response for every point and that they would hold someone's foot to the fire and like it just wouldn't work like especially with figures like jordan peterson benjamin because they would just steamroll as well like the so yeah i i think people overestimate how much they could do what destiny does better than him i don't think most people could i don't think i could do better than him in in most uh debating circumstances you would only you would only do better you would only do better than me that's that's all yeah yeah yeah so that i i think that's just something to say right i don't think he'd be as good as doing statistical analysis so it's all relevant

all relative but unfortunately i'm not as good as that as you so um last two clips matt last two clips and again just to contrast with another figure that we covered you remember constantine saying that poor people don't give a crap about um you know the environment or and they're just like caring about how how to live there or there are certain social issues that will drive every strata of society what do you think that is um well i mean like stuff related to children is going to be a really big one um stuff related to abortion is a massive one in the united states uh lgbt issues can be a big one. But yeah, this is a mistake that I don't think they make the same mistakes anymore.

But political pundits or political pollsters and politicians used to make the mistake that like, oh, poor people just care about meat and potatoes issues. They don't care about social issues. But that's absolutely not true. Sometimes poor people care about social issues more than wealthier people because they've got, you know, less of a stake even in kind of the whole like wealth game, you know. I would argue actually, just on that topic even for brexit i feel like brexit was largely driven by social issues especially immigration i think even though some people will try to talk

around and say it was financial or say it was economic i it doesn't feel that way i don't think so when i look at the rhetoric and i look at the the sentiment that was driving brexit actually happening yeah that's true that's that's that's true enough yes it's true and you know like uh he's applying it to brexit but you could apply it to global warming and it just shows like how shallow constantine's um analysis is a bit of a random attack on constantine or jordan peterson but that's fine why not and um the last one as well uh to to illustrate that he isn't just you know like an edge lawyer i mean we heard him talk about biden we heard him talk about a whole bunch of things but like here's him

talking about sex differences and gender and those kind of issues right you know a hot button topic but i think it's important to recognize differences between men and women they're real they exist obviously and there's different ways that men and women function in society but i think that sometimes we make the mistake in society of we will we'll we'll look at men and women where they are and we'll assume that they could only ever be there because of our biological differences and then we ignore the massive social drivers that we have that push us deeper into those fields so like in my opinion in a totally equitable world totally equal everybody has the same opportunity same upbringing blah blah blah i think even in that world you'd still see men and

women choosing differently um based on the profession profession but you're not going to see like 90 of men and 10 of women in some areas it's going to see like 90% of men and 10% of women in some areas. It's going to be like 55, 45, or maybe a little bit larger, maybe a little bit smaller, depending on the area. But I feel like sometimes we make this mistake of like, well, women have always done this,

so we'll never want to do this in the future. And I think that, at least in the United States, keep in mind when I speak, I'm always speaking U.S. social justice. It might be a slightly different other place in the world, but the United States, I think, access to the workplace and access to birth control has like fundamentally altered women's relationship with society in ways that i don't think anybody would

have ever believed yeah yeah he threads the needle there i think anyone i think most visual people would have to admit that that balances the you know the biological and cultural arguments there pretty well and this is in response to what is kind of like a gotcha question i think he was asked um how do you define a woman what's a woman and he gives an answer like that which you know it's it's a good one he answers it better than than i think i could if i was put on that spots yeah and and also the very last point there where he said you know this is in reference to the keep in mind i'm always talking in relation to the u.s context right that's him when the thing

that so many of the gurus don't whereas he i mean i'm not saying he always is this careful but it speaks to his desire to you know contextualize what he's yeah clear me yeah like that's an important caveat right and it's something that wouldn't occur to most most opinionators on that topic no i mean i think what it demonstrates is like we've heard we've heard destiny being loose and we've heard him being careful right and and i think yeah i think the the takeaway is is that he contains multitudes. You know, he can do a lot of different things. And he can operate at a very effective level. He can also operate at different levels.

Yeah. So, you know, that's where I think I'll end it with the clips. Oh, maybe one very, very final one, which is just, I think, a true sentiment about, you know, maybe the rationalists would do well to hit this point. I expect communities to be irrational about the way that they evaluate what I say because I don't expect communities to be logic-driven, ultra- ultra rational things. It's just not how groups of people work. Um, not necessarily to its detriment. Sometimes it's good. You know, we don't, when we're making decisions as a group or

as a family or as a relationship, not everybody wants to sit down with, with, with fucking Wikipedia, Andy and pull out a spreadsheet and map out like the best arguments for like, why should we raise our kid this way? Or why should we this right i totally understand that not everybody functions like that that's fine totally get it one of the problems that i run into though so just talking about you know the general people are not rational beings so it's understandable that he'll push people's buttons and whatnot and anyway he's he's going to go on and outline his thing but as what that that is a he is modeling correctly people's psychology right and he's not viewing that everybody is like him he kind of recognizes

he's an outlier and and that's relevant and just to reiterate like the main themes for me with destiny are that he's and he is what he says he is a edgy twitch streamer but i don't think he is a bad faith debater or that he is misrepresenting his positions i think he can adjust his message according to the audience and he's quite different when he's talking to a stream versus his uh like when he's talking to a mainstream audience or whatever but there's there's like an admirable level of openness about that along with all the weird and I would say kind of shitty, like dynamics that go around the parasocial, you know,

influencers, streamer culture and the, you know, the toxic bipolar, everybody having sex with each other and, uh, drama that like infects that space like he he is in there in all of that but he's a pioneer in so many different respects he was a pioneer

with like streaming games he was a pioneer with like politics content online and you know now he's a little bit of an elder statesman as strange as it might seem in those domains and yeah i i found him one of the most interesting people to cover because of all the different complexities in his content and i i do see uh some parallels in his psychology and the psychology of someone like me or other people that fixate on critically evaluating stuff. it doesn't mean that you can't be critical of him for, you know, the Nick Fuentes stuff or the going to kill a young child for interrupting his stream. A young child now, Chris, before you just. We're a teenager.

Yeah. I don't know what age he was. I think it was 11. Anyway, whatever the fact that that, you know, is a, is a thing.

And so, yeah. And this was an interesting episode. I'm glad we've looked in the streamer culture. Cause I understand it better now. And so, yeah, this was an interesting episode. I'm glad we've looked in the streamer culture because I understand it better now and I'm,

I have consumed a lot of Destiny content, probably more content for Destiny than anyone else we've ever covered, except, with the exceptions of people

who, you know, I've known all their stuff for years and years. So, that's it. That's it. I'm sure people will point out that we missed tons of stuff and we, you know i've known all their stuff for years and years so yeah that's it that's i'm sure people will point out that we missed tons of stuff and we you know got various things wrong but that's the way it is that's the way it is there's too much stuff in in destiny's case well chris thank you on behalf of everybody um for going through all those hours and giving us this glimpse

into not just destiny but i think streamer culture generally he is what the last thing i'll say about him is that i of all of the gurus that we've covered i i don't think i've ever really struggled to make a diagnosis at the end too much you know but in the case of destiny i it is to the the culture in which he which he inhabits is so foreign to me, and the mores and mores there. And the fact that he is so multifaceted, I think, means that all I can do is just say that was interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. It'll be interesting if we end up talking to him in some venue which we may do well don't debate with him don't even try Chris yeah well we'll see if he exercises his right

to reply but that's that is what it is so there'll be people that won't like this map because they'll think we're too nice to Destiny there'll be people that will think we're too harsh there'll be people that won't like this map because they'll think we're too nice to Destiny. There'll be people that will think we're too harsh. There'll be people that will think that was weird. And as Destiny would say, tough, live with it. That's what we did.

We did what we did. We are what we are. And we said what we said. So that's the way it is. And for the Dalaban, just don't frigging target our families or destroy our lives, right? We tried to be balanced and accurate in our criticism. So, you know, please don't, like, destroy everything in our lives.

Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, that's a good note to leave things on. Thanks, Chris. Thanks, everybody. Can't go yet, Matt. Can't go. Yeah, Okay. Well, that's a good note to leave things on. Thanks, Chris. Thanks, everybody. You can't go yet, Matt. You can't go. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can very, very soon.

But you can't go right now. I do have to go very soon. Yes. Because we have one last final thing to do, Matt. I stopped you from exiting, Matt, because, you know, we have to say thank you to people. We normally review reviews. It's been a long episode. I don't think we need to do that. I'll just mention that. You remember our old friend, Disappointed

2 Million and 1, the Sam Harris column man. They've updated the review again. This is becoming a relationship now yeah just like for example just i'll give some i don't want to keep giving them credit but like uh good work on huberman completely agree in a useful analysis i know your paywall jingle sounds much like sam harris's intro a bit lukewarm on your uval segment he is a storyteller nothing blah blah blah it's just like it started you know it's that's not what the review thing is for he used to do it once but um in any case there's that and then somebody else said the one other one

a four-star review and they wrote nuclear matt nuclear, nuclear. It's pronounced nuclear, not nuclear. They sound the same to me, but they're the same picture. Nuclear, nuclear, nuclear, nuclear, nuclear. What do I say? Nuclear. You say it. Nuclear. Yeah, see, you added nuclear.

It's a thing George Bush did, we we've been doing this before different people in different countries respect things differently respect my cultural distinctiveness damn you um get with the program get with the program it's the mat and it's the matrix that just hasn't caught on yet it will that's right and uh for the rest of you, get on to the reviews. And just in case the Taliban or Sam Harris fans or whoever, Hassanites, whatever they're called, they're all going to get there and try to, you know, brigade us. So you guys need to go there. You're going to defend us, people.

We're relying on you. Yeah. Yeah, we can mobilize the great Dakota coding the gurus uh massive online community so um but yeah that's that would be good leave us reviews if you want um but but matt we do have patreon supporters people who are kind fans and they they give up their hard-earned earnings and i think about them and their hard-earned earnings a lot especially at the three-hour mark of uh that's right and i remember why why am i here why am i doing this can i just leave can i just walk away and then i go no that then I go, no. That's not why you do it, Mike. It's not why you do it. It's not about the

financial rewards. It's for the love of the guru decoding. But nonetheless, you have to thank those. You have to thank those that are willing to support us in our suffering. They didn't listen to 100 hours of Destiny's content. I'm not saying that's uh and then so i'm just saying it's the truth it's just the truth um but but various people did so matt we are going to find conspiracy hypothesizers first there we will fight. again kefu mario i'm a borgersian iri tommy wa ekisola some guy infinite goth who makes good trading cards of about northern ireland ann marie petternan dylan ben scolfing chase bell Vernon, Dylan, Ben Schofield, Chase Bell, Dada DeBregolia, Gabe, Tyler Porter, Shur Shirelsovic, and Yuri and John Roman and Micah Piker. That's all the ones I'll thank.

And apologies to everyone who had a foreign or unusual name who had it massacred by chris just then even mario mario yeah i feel like there was a conference that none of us were invited to that came to some very strong conclusions and they've all circulated this list of correct answers i wasn't at this conference. This kind of shit makes me think, man, it's almost like someone is being paid. Like when you hear these George Soros stories, he's trying to destroy the country from within.

We are not going to advance conspiracy theories. We will advance conspiracy hypotheses. God. There was no conference, Matt. No one was there eric was not the only one that's all in his imagination hearing joe rogan talk about falchi and just how credulous what a credulous buffoon he is like oh you hear these stories how he's trying to destroy the country from within yeah why do you hear them jo hear those stories? It just made me think about the difference between that and someone like Destiny who, whatever his faults are, approaches. If somebody told him a story about Fauci trying to destroy the country from

within or a similar story, he would approach it with a critical mindset and do some basic fact checking. And that's what Joe Rogan would never do in a million years. I did hear him on some stream. Somebody was suggesting a conspiracy theory about Palestinians intentionally getting shot, like to increase sympathy. And he was somewhat gullible.

that's a shame. I take it back. No compliment. Yeah. So he, he might not always, I take it back that compliment yeah so he might not always but he's at least a lot more immune about that and you know I think it's a lot more selective than the general

applied thing so there we go I'm just saying Matt level two revolutionary geniuses the ones that get access to decoded Academia and can hear our review of Immune by Philip Detmer. They include

Jonathan Burkhart, Nicholas Williams, Dr. Thomas Jacoby Dubstone Senior Mantequilla um david forrester odd toad of mo

uh stephen ingy um um ali b karen bookman how would you pronounce b Adam, Adam LaCora, Ali B, Karen Bachman. How would you pronounce B-O-U-M-L-E-T-C-K-M-A-N-E? I don't know.

I've never wrapped my head around umlets. Bachman, Bachman. Egyptian Genie, Theo O'Donnell, Eric Stein, not Eric Weinstein, Eric Stein, Wish Dragon, and John Martin. That's our revolutionary geniuses. Thank you, everyone. Mid-tier, this is good. You know, you could bump it up.

You could bump it up for the benefit, the wonderful benefit of having a live stream with us once a month. You know, that's so desirable isn't it isn't that what you want yeah i don't know but anyway we thank you where you are i'm usually running i don't know 70 or 90 distinct paradigms simultaneously all the time and the idea is not to try to collapse them down to a single master paradigm i'm someone who's a true polymath i'm all over the place but my main claim to collapse them down to a single master paradigm. I'm someone who's a true polymath. I'm all over the place.

But my main claim to fame, if you'd like, in academia is that I founded the field of evolutionary consumption. Now, that's just a guess. And it could easily be wrong. But it also could not be wrong. The fact that it's even plausible is stunning. It could also not not be wrong. Did you ever think of that, Chris? Did you ever think of that?

Could not be not wrong. Right. And last, Matt, galaxy brain gurus. Mind bender. Matt Ruana. Trees, like the things that grow in the ground um and ab fullan abfulan and a lot of gum virus valencia and then a lot of the cam very lessy and a i h m i'm m so those those are all um galaxy brain gurus galaxy brain gurus thank you guys see you at the live stream we tried to warn people yeah like what was coming

how it was going to come in the fact that it was everywhere and in everything considering me tribal just doesn't make any sense i have no tribe i'm in exile think again sunshine yeah and very last month very last thing to say two people i haven't shouted out i've forgotten they've been waiting a long time and that would be lily and joe rommel i'll give them a shout out so if i've missed you if you feel that you haven't been shouted out just hit me up on the patreon or whatever and you get a shout out like this so special thank you both thank you yeah that's a special thank you to you both yep definitely hassle chris if you have not got the shout outs that you that's that's the way to do it um and we're done matt go i was about to say something crude but i i feel like your mother has been subjected to enough yeah she doesn't she's heard from destiny she doesn't

need to hear from you too chris she looks up to you she respects you you'll break her heart don't do that I'll you know what I'll do I'll do it in the style of Hitchhiker's Galaxy go crunkle all over your scuzznut okay alright

I hear you I hear you alright well that's been fun bye for now bye That's been fun, Matt. Bye for now. Bye. Thank you.