Decoding the Gurus - DTG Christmas Quiz 2025 with Helen Lewis

Episode Date: December 22, 2025

In this special Christmas episode, Helen’s annual Guru Quiz returns, lightly dusted with Trump, podcast tours, and the unsettling realisation that the Guru-sphere and the MAGA-sphere have quietly fused into a single, monetised, vibes-based organism. That's right, the regular decoding team are joined by renowned journalist, author, podcaster... and occasional DTG quiz master, Helen Lewis, who once again brings her festive cheer, an uncanny ability to identify exactly who will be unbearable next year, and a quiz designed to torture Matt.Points are awarded, dignity is lost, and Matt briefly considers revising for the quiz before remembering that preparation has never helped him before.The episode also covers MAGA and UK political manoeuvres, the movers and shakers of the Gurusphere in 2025, and a lament for the collapse of the ancient boundary between editorial content and hawking pants.So join us for a festive episode about gurus, geniuses, authoritarian comedy festivals, and the slow erosion of shame. Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night... and that includes you, Bubbles!LinksHelen Lewis on SubstackHelen's Article on the Riyadh Comedy FestivalHelen's Article on Olivia Nuzzi's BookThe Genius MythThat Dave Chappelle picture

Hello and welcome to the codeine, the coding, the gurus, the pog, the coding, the gurus, the plug, We're an anthropologist of sorts and the psychologist of sorts. We decode gurus and talk about things and do all our stuff, read books, other things. And occasionally, we have very nice guests join us, right, for various reasons. In this case, it's the first time we've had triple, quadruple. I suppose it depends how you break down the way that we split up the recordings. We have themed British writer, presenter of podcasts of documentary series, writer of books, which we've reviewed on the Dakota and Academia series.

You've got to hurry this along, Chris. They're going to be expecting Malcolm Gladwell, and it's going to be a horrible disappointment. No one likes him. Shush, that voice might have given away. It's that time of year. co-host of page 94, the Private Eye podcast, and strong message here with Armando Ian Nucci, staff writer at the Atlantic. It is. Helen Lewis. Yeah, it's like my little Christmas, like a little Christmas elf that comes and visits

you. Yeah. You know, we do increasingly get, is Helen going to come on this year? Like, has she, they're kind of like, you know, is it really worth her time? I'm like, Yeah, I know. I was like, well, she bite. So I was very happy when you said yes. No, it was nice. At this point, Helen, you've been on our podcast more times than Brett Weinstein has been on Joe Rogan's podcast. No, she hasn't.

No, we're no way on your podcast more times than Brett Weinstein is featured on your podcast. That's the one to beat. That's true. Well, yeah, and I brought my usual festive treats, actually, which is I've made you a short quiz. about the guru sphere. Well, actually, it's kind of, maybe this is allowed. It's in the intersection of the guru sphere and the megaspher, because I do think that in the last 18 months,

the two of them have kind of merged into one, right? I mean, I spent a lot of time in the American election last year covering Trump's podcast tour when he did Lex Friedman, Joe Rogan, one of the Paul brothers, I now, in my mind, I can't separate them because I don't care enough. Logan, come on, Chris, you'll know this man. Logan, yeah, impulsive, impulsive. It was impulsive.

And then, yeah, with the, like, which they stopped halfway through and had product placement for his energy drink, which is just made me laugh a lot. And Theobon, yeah. So I, so there's, yes, there is unfortunately kind of trump infusion to, to the quiz this year. Well, that's good, because Matt was ringing his hands earlier when I was mentioning the quiz. And he was like, should I study for it? Do I? And I was like, Matt, come on. Is it like, you know, we all know what will happen.

It doesn't matter. By the way, my favorite bit when you guys did the book club of my, book was the bit when you were like and then some philosophers reviewed it and Matt just audibly kind of went oh yeah yeah yeah actually we just had speaking of which we literally just did the when we do the book reviews we do like an audience participation second book review so we just did offer your book like a couple days ago but people had read the book months ago it's a book club so we just facilitate the book club so we've heard the opinions of A broad church, you know, selection.

Yeah, and all their appearance. No, I mean, it's been interesting because it got very mixed reviews, which was it really kind of interesting. I think, I think lots of people didn't like the tone of it. I think you put your finger on it, which is there is a kind of stand culture. And it's not just around Nicky Minaj or Taylor Swift. It's around like Picasso. And there was a sort of, and some of the tone in Sunner Roos was like, you know,

I don't like having pointed out my favour is problematic. And I think the tone of the book was very much like, still like the art of Picasso that's fine like I'm not judging you but people really do feel like you're taking something away from them so I think that that's where some of the I felt like some of the hostility to it really came

plus as you say lots of people saying why won't she define what a genius is and you're like I'm going to introduce you to this concept called this is a social construct like I thought we were you know what is money why won't she define money what like does it like is this piece of paper worth anything or not and you're like

but you're like yes That's kind of the question. It shouldn't be controversial. People like Picasso or Andy Warhol or whoever are, you know, we're actively cultivating and self-mithologizing. That's kind of part of their brand. I don't think every person who, you know, society is post hoc decided was a bit of a genius necessarily does that.

But some of them absolutely definitely do, right? There's one person in helmet he has particularly, is very fond of. I still probably still got my art book here. fareweller, the artist. I don't know who he is. He's a very, is not very well-known Australian abstract expressionist. You know, he's, he's a minor, he lived on an island, Helen. He lived on an island. He drove around on a boat and he did various things. And Matt's convinced he is the real thing. Don't you dare? I thought the end of this was going to be and he had like a load of 13-year-old girls on the island. No, like this is not. That's not what this is

possible. It was just a weird old guy that didn't want to talk to anyone and wanted to be all by himself and painted a lot of paintings. And, you know, I'm just saying, Chris has a tendency to path. Honestly, I respect that. I think everybody's got a problematic faith. There's a vortices painter and writer in the early, in the 1920s, it's called Wyndham Lewis, no relation. And he was just an absolute asshole. His wife came home from the hospital from giving birth to their child and he wouldn't let her back in the house because he was upstairs having sex with his mistress, right? She's a pretty high bar of being a twat.

But you know what? The novel's very funny. The painting's extremely, like, important to the development of Western art. Like, someone went, all the other thing that happened to him is that he was once, he got into a row with someone who hated him so much, they hung him upside down on railings by his trouser turn-ups, which is the kind of thing that used to happen to you

if you were a gentleman in the 1920s, London. That sounds like a been-all. We need to bring that back. There's quite a lot of people I see on Twitter. I think if only someone had hung up. you upside down some rainers by your trousers turned up when you were young this never would have happened that's kind of connected to the topic we got sidetracked on on the book club which is that this kind of halo effect where people assume or want to believe that someone who is very very good

at creating a particular kind of thing or inventing the wankle rotary engine or whatever it happens to be you know is an amazing person or no or other respect and i i i always i've mentioned a million times but the worst guy like a really bad guy louis ferdinand saline right he wrote journey to the end of the night and death on credit and i love those books they're really amazing and at the time when i read them was before the internet and stuff i i just knew he was a bad guy like no one but a really shitty guy would would write those book he just oozed through the thing and there was no way a good guy could write those books and you know later on i found out he was like a raging anti-Semite before before it was cool before the Nazis made it cool and many such cases

yeah and a proto-fascist and everything else it's like and i was like yeah that makes sense that makes sense that makes perfect sense but it's sort of like why do you why do you have to like the person that did the thing i don't know but i think the favorite thing that came up on that was your idea about the jagged edge of ai i thought that was really interesting because actually and you know The idea that AI... Chris, take note. Take note. I have good ideas.

Extraordinary. I've got something to say about that. But no, but it's exactly right. Like, I try not to use AI in when I'm writing, right? I want to be able to say my writing is 100% human free. What I do use chat GPT for is like, give me an example of X, right? Like, give me an example of a guy who had floppy hair in a 19th TV service, like as a kind of better natural language, Google.

And it's really great at that. And obviously it hallucinates even now. But that's pretty easily cleaned up by them once it gives. you the example going and checking back. And so I don't have a problem with saying this is a really helpful tool, but it's not great at everything. Like that just seems to be just the most obvious thing in the same way that, like, yeah. And as you say, Elon Musk, Starlink is now being rolled out all over the place, undoubtedly an incredible achievement in connectivity. But the tweets are bad. And like we don't have to tend to tweets. The tweets aren't bad. When it comes to Elon Musk,

I have a problem with just giving him the credit for everything any of his companies has done. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think we give the director of NASA, like all the credit for the moon landing. You know, the work gets done by, you know, thousands of people often that aren't the song and dancemen at the front. So, so not diminishing his, his very skills. But let's diminish him by the fact that, I mean, Bill Gates has probably delivered the epitaph on Elon Musk, right? Which is the richest guy in the world has killed some of the poorest people in the world. That's really going to be, for me, the world.

way that I will remember him. He just really, did he do anything in Doge, apart from go in and destroy US aid to sub-Saharan Africa? Not really. Like the trillions of wanted savings didn't really get made. What he did basically was just cut foreign aid, which to be fair, as it turns out, you know, the British have done as well, right? We've redirected our aid budget into, like, dealing with domestic asylum claims. But just, you know, how, like, honestly, but like, how does he sleep at night, you know? to the extent that it moved George Bush actually like this one of the things we just found out recently

that George Bush was obviously one of the instigators of PEPFAR the anti-AIDS program has never criticised any subsequent president in public was moved to ring privately and say like this was an amazing bipartisan achievement like what what are you do and then went back to painting his pictures of terriers at his ranch in Texas she's like weird his presidency thing it feels misplaced now but I'm just going to mention that that I don't have any issue with that's jagged edge point.

I thought it was very good, but there was as predictable, like a particular list of feedback that took issue with Matt pointing that out, and I fed it back to Matt. But he has embodied it. It was me that said it. But I was just the messenger, okay? It feels petty to mention that. What's the feedback then?

What's the critique of it? Oh, it was essentially somebody arguing that Matt was wrong, that AI is good at anything. I think that was the general thing or that it was one of the other ways either it's like it's good at everything or it's bad and everything

it was one of the two like they took issue with the Jagged Edge thing exactly well that was silly that was silly yeah I'm on team Matt and actually I'm still on team me about the fact that the criticisms that I make of AI in the book are I think it

AI like I can understand Chris it when you're doing like the way you've talked to me about it and about the way it's useful in some of the kind of mechanistic work that you do, like they're drawing up tables or coding or whatever it might be. And I think Claude is particularly good at coding, right? But I don't do that in my job. That's the thing that's interesting.

So my kind of way of formulating what my critique is that AI would have probably helped Picasso do his tax return. It wouldn't necessarily have helped him paint Gernica. And that's where, that's the bit that we haven't got to yet, is I don't think, even if you could churn out Samakra of Van Gogh paintings, people want that they want the story they want the idea they're connecting with another human brain there was a guy called van goff and he had this terrible mental illness but out of it came this great beauty they don't want to think that's like how sitting in a data center was just churning

out pictures of flowers because that's just you know there might as well be dogs playing poker there's no there's no meaning to it yeah well that's kind of two things right one thing is the you know the idea that it's art is a communication from one a conscious person to it to another, rather than just the product in and of itself and the creative aspect of it. And where you're so right is that the jagged edge is so jagged at two things. One is telling how many hours there are in strawberry. And the second one is telling jokes. Absolutely cannot tell a joke.

Then again, neither can Elon Musk, if you saw him on Joe Rogan try and tell that joke about the two economists eating shit for $100. I was like, oh, okay, yeah. No, I can't tell Joe. I mean, many of us can't tell jokes. No, no, but can't be correct. I mean, I think really good humor requires a certain kind of creativity. That's kind of what you're hinting at as well.

And I think very bad, just pure creativity in the sense of just, you know, that sort of purely artistic. But also charisma, right? If you gave any of us a list of Jimmy Carr's set list, right, which is just full of incredibly good, well-written jokes and asked us to go and perform it, I don't think it would go well. I think it would just become increasingly, as we read out more, like the interaction between the performer, the alchemy between the performer and the audience, again, is part of what telling a joke is. In the same way that like dad jokes, I'm sure both of you do dad jokes, and like part of the pleasure of them is that it's your dad and you know the joke is going to be terrible and everybody's expecting it to be terrible. And sure enough, it is terrible and you love it anyway.

Like that's the bit that's the humanness of it that it will never capture back again. you know the bit that has me like a little bit concerned about it and in general I'm very positively disposed to AI because of like how useful it is just in like it is very useful for coding stuff but also in preparing lectures I've just found it really really useful it's been instrumental for me in a couple of papers that are written like I'm published just over the last year like very technical papers a lot of mathematics involved but it didn't just help me with the sort of mechanical aspects of doing some of the algebra and some of the proofs, but actually like all of the conceptual stuff in terms of developing it, it was kind of like the back

and forth kind of thing. Like I flattered myself. I think I was providing much of the creativity, right? But there's no doubt that it helped me along. And in terms of like an ever ready research assistant to do the things that would have fatigued me no end and made it such a laborious task that I probably would have given out. That is also a bit about what I was writing about in the book, is the idea of the lone genius you create something on their own often requires editing out lots of people, particularly the wives who were incredibly clever

and incredibly engaged in the work themselves, like a Vera Nabokov. And what chat GPT is essentially doing is giving you like a very smart sounding board. And actually, I think that reveals something quite profound about the fact that a lot of thinking is best done in dialogue. You know, just like you need prompts feeding into you to kind of make you think about something

in a different way, just as much as chat GPT does. Actually, I used it today, what I used it for today, I woke up in the morning, and I've got, sorry, this is a stupid old person anecdote, but indulge me, right? I have got some Thai basil, and I just stuck it into a glass of water on my kitchen windowsill, and it grew roots and stuff like that. And meanwhile, my veggie garden out the back is like being, no, like over a week or so. Meanwhile, the grasshoppers and everything out of the back have just like destroyed all my veggie garden. I went, like, hydroponics is clearly going to work.

I should do that. So now I'm running a weed factory. Yeah. So I mentioned the idea to, I think it was Gemini, and it kind of bounced it backwards and forwards. And then it told me, it gave me the concept. I asked it to draw me a diagram. And I went, yeah, okay, that'll work. And then it helped me design this little thing.

And then it told me what I need to buy. And then I got the Dremel because I need to cut up some plastic and stuff. And I've forgotten how to do the parts and everything. I just took photos of it and said, how do I undo the thing and what's the right part to use for this? And it talked me through all of it. And I'll send your photos, but I made up hydroponics thing this afternoon. Don't ask for the photos. That I wouldn't have done that without Gemini kind of prompting me along.

So, yeah, it's interesting. The connection to the helm is that Matt also said if his wife was home, that he wouldn't have been allowed to do that. Well, I did it on the kitchen. I did it on the kitchen. That's right. It's too hot in the shed. But, you know, the thing I wanted to say with the AI, yes, like supporting with all that stuff, like, you know, lecture notes and all that kind of thing. But the other thing that I'm like a little bit worried about, and you're right, Helen, that we aren't there yet, is that, you know, all those people that had the AI psychosis or the people on Twitter who are over reliant on GROC.

And in this cult season, we've been doing as well, you kind of notice there's like a really clear grammar that works for manipulating people and making them feel, listen to. And a lot of it is just a tone of voice and the way that you present things. And I'm like, AIs can't do it yet. But if they get better at imitating that kind of delivery and stuff, and frankly scared, because currently in their version where they're not convincing, you already have a whole bunch of people that use them. Like you said, they kind of give back what you feed them.

So if you're a conspiratorial maniac and you feed that into them, in some cases, you know, they endorse people that they actually are geniuses and stuff. And you're like, oh, dude, it's not going to be good. So I don't know if we'll get an AI guru or AI will just be encouraging more people that they definitely are on there something. they're, you know, alternative theories of everything, so, ugh. Yeah, I think about that guy.

Do you remember that guy went on Joe Rogan? Is it Terrence Howard? And he was convinced that he'd come up with a whole new type of physics. I mean, that is, as I write in the book, one of the tells of like, uh-oh, oh, no, we think we've overturned all the physics, have we? Okay. And that type of personality, that kind of grandiose, like, so open-minded, your brains have fallen out kind of personality, I think interacts very poorly with large

language models because they will just keep puffing you up. And that's the thing that's interesting is like I feel that you're right. The conversation has changed enormously even in like three years. We hear an awful lot less about we're going to get to our general intelligence within two years. We hear quite a lot less about, you know, it's going to destroy all jobs and possibly the universe. But the things that have turned out to be true, I do think that the AI psychosis is like for a significant, like a proportion of people I think are probably just latently prone to that particular form of mental illness. And, you know, and unless you write an LLM with massive guardrails against it,

they will just fall into that abyss. There are just enough of those stories now. And I can kind of, I can completely see how it works. You end up just by default treating it like it's got a personality. You know, I think it's almost impossible not to fall into that idea that it's another person that you're talking to. Otherwise, you just feel really mean. Like, I don't know what prompts you're putting in,

but if you're just like, come on, bitch, like, do the table for me. You'd be like, just, why am I being rude, like, needlessly rude to it? I'm always very polite to my future AI overlords. Yeah. Oh, Helen, I have to just mention, I'll summarize it in the short version, but we had some problems with our YouTube account being demonetized. You know, the struggles of influencers online. And I was put into communication with some AI help bots.

I got through the first layer of help bots to the more advanced. AI one. And I had a series of them, but whatever YouTube's doing or Google, you know, behind the scenes, they're letting the AIs choose their names from a selection that is quite broad. So I dealt with initially bubbles. And then I love. And the last one was orange, orange cumin at the thing. And the thing with bubbles was, which I felt was the first insult. It's this long chain of AIs I was dealing with. was that bubbles after not resolving the problem and, you know, saying, I'm going to, I'm going to forward this to my colleagues and we'll get back to you. And I said, all right, that's great. Okay. And they said, you know, do you want me to send your copy of the conversation? Yes, please.

And then said, can I help you anything else? I said, no. It said, thanks. This has been a really meaningful interaction. And I won't forget how kind you feed to me today. I was like, it feels like something's been miscalibated here. It also sounded like a semi-frette coming from that day. You've shown me real kindness.

And I won't forget this. I'm like, okay, bubbles are you plotting? What do we need to? You will be scared one day, Chris. You will be spared. Yeah. I got, and the other thing was it signed off to me in one of its many emails. It was like, you know, I'm trying to resolve this.

And it said, you know, take care in these difficult times. bubbles. I was like, what the hell? Like, why did they let them become this model? So, yeah, that's,

I think they've got some, some work to do on that, but I enjoyed it. And to be fair, it did eventually resolve. So it took about eight of them. But it's, we're monetized again.

So, yay. Yeah, lucky for us. Who is your, in terms of like your year in review, who would you say is the most interesting? And that doesn't have to be an endorsement figure to have a,

emerge in the kind of gurus fear this year. Who's come out of nowhere and really is incredibly important or influential in some way? Oh. I saw Matt's fate slide up, which I think means he's cheating and looking at the garrometer. I'm looking at the grometer right now. Yeah. But I thought you were, because last year, some of the patrons noted that Matt and I think you, Helen, I can't remember who you guys, but I know one was the.

Matt was talking, I think, about Sabina Hosenfelder. And there was someone that you mentioned, Helm, whoever it was, you were right. People were like, she's right. And Matt was right. Whatever I said, I don't know. They didn't mention me. So you guys got credit for being good of protecting that. Like, I remember it was.

In my case, I'm enjoying, I don't think this is going to become like much more extreme. I kind of feel like he's already maybe at the peak of where he's going. but I'm enjoying Gary Stevenson. I did wonder if you were going to say Gary's economics. Yeah. I think he's in a very interesting place. I think there was a gap in the market for a populist left wing guy.

And he's done very well. So has Zach Polanski, is the new leader of the Green Party in England and Wales, because he will just go on question time or whatever it is and go, I think we should tax billionaires. And people love it. And he will just go, you know,

he looks very cheerful. He's like, he's a good communicator. And the message is that, like, hey, do you hate rich guys who flaunt their wealth in front of you and have, like, dog shit opinions? And everyone goes, yes, yes, I do. Yes. Oh, did you see there was a crossover between Gary and Zach via Rory Stewart recently? Yes. Yes. Unfortunately, I did. You know, the thing that I noticed about this is like the beauty of Gary, I think, summarized in an image, is that, you know, there was the back and forth about, like, Rory said, he's a sort of a economist and Gary. that oh this is working class discrimination

post but on Twitter he posted a big long thing but then he posted a picture that was a picture of his master his M-Phil and the thing is he blanked out his middle name and I am now absolutely desperate to find out he said it's really embarrassing

tell me you've done some investigative journalism oh no no I was like Mongo or like Beelzebub or something like this like what would be the most embarrassing thing if it was really really posh that would be incredibly embarrassed If his middle name's like Montgomery or something like that, that would be bad for the brand.

It looks like it's short. So I think you suggested Hugo. I think that's a top contender because it's a short middle name. And like, but I mean, that was good because he put a plectrum over that to hide that. But the other bit, which I only noticed later when I was like complaining about something and were good at it, was that there were two chocolate biscuits placed on top of it, on the top left corner and the Pocodot mug of tea, right? And I was like, but that means he put down the certificate,

because it's not like he would just stuff in his face with biscuits and they fell down and top it. Like he had to put the certificate down, place the biscuits on top, and then pull the mug into the shot and take like the angled photograph. So you get the certificate and you get the digestive biscuits. And all of his videos on his channel have done. Jaffa kicks on a little thing on this desk. So it's like, it's a very studied working class presentation.

I kind of like it as performance art in a way. I think he's very interesting because I would say him and actually Zach Polanski both do something that you've talked about in relation to people like Lex Friedman, which is the kind of, I'm incredibly important and influential, you know, thanks guys for taking me to number one, you know, we're finally smashing the system. But as soon as you get any of the kind of scrutiny applied to you, that that would then entail, you then suddenly demand that you're playing by a special different set of rules because you're only like a little birthday boy. And that's the thing is, you know,

the Greens are pitching themselves as an alternative party of government. They want to win loads of seats. They are a serious political party competing in the mainstream system. Why, therefore, should they get to be marked on a curve that's different to the one that we use for like the Lib Dems or Labor or the Conservatives? That's the kind of, and I feel a bit like that about Gary's economics. He's proposing changes to the global financial system. something that affects all of us, you're allowed to ask him quite difficult questions. Like, you know, but there was this kind of, and I didn't like the knee-jerk, immediate retreat back to Rory Stewart only hates me because he's posh.

Rory Strait hates loads of people. He hates loads of other posh people. He hates Boris Johnson. Like, he is just quietly quite a hater. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not going to let you do off Elo, so I don't know that that's a good prediction, because I don't think, like, I don't see Gary going. stellar in the next 12 months.

But what about you two? Who are your movers and shakers of the past year or the coming year, whichever way you like it? Well, there's a new biography of Tucker Carlson that's coming out in the spring, which I'm really going to be interested to look forward to, because I think he's become an incredibly interesting figure. Like, he's still very friendly with J.D. Vance, for example, but he has managed to essentially break up the Heritage Foundation,

which is the big influential Trumpist think tank. So they were the guys who wrote Project 2025, which was essentially the kind of blueprint for the Trump second term, full of quite extreme stuff that Trump during the campaign said, oh, you know, I've got nothing to do. You know, I don't know anything about this. But when Tucker Carlson had Nick Fuentes on, that was, it was one of those really fascinating moments where, you know, Maga's whole shtick is that we don't cancel anybody. The left of total snowflakes, you know, they're always crying victim, crying offense. And they really struggled to articulate a language that was like, oh, no, this guy, you know, whether or not he's, you know, whether or not he's. doing it as performance artist, to my mind, I don't really care, saying

things like, you know, but Hitler was great, yeah, you know, women shouldn't be allowed to work, all of that stuff. I mean, actually, I don't think the Heritage Foundation particularly have problems with the idea that women shouldn't be allowed to work, but they do, there is still a, like, the final taboo is still, like, is Hitler good or not?

So, you know, there have been resignations, a whole spate of resignations, but there is a kind of fascinating point, which is that Carlson is uncancelable, right? His show is on X. they're not Ena Musk isn't going to kick him off the platform so he's always representing that kind of temptation

to people and his road show had like Russell Brand on it but also J.D. Vance and I think if you're J.D. Vance and you're thinking about your next presidential run I think those associations would be actually really damaging because Trump gets away with the incredible level of menace because of the camp and the humor

whereas J.D. Vance unfortunately is a real sour puss and I think therefore more extreme political views would damage him more than they damage Trump but I'm not sure he's a smart guy but I'm not sure he's smart enough or he spends enough time talking to normal people

that he will have realised this so yeah that's who I'm my one to watch will Tucker Carlson and his he's very pro-Katar quite pro-Russia you know he's very anti-Israel like will his set of positions cause a real crack in the Republican Party

as they begin to look to the post, you know, inevitable post-Trump future. Whether or not you think Trump's going to try and run for a third term, I think it's not impossible that he would keep talking about it, even if he's too lazy to actually have a crack at it. But even then he's heading for 80. You know, people are already thinking about what comes next. And, you know, Tucker Carson, I think, would fancy himself a kingmaker in that process. There was a very clear distinction in the way Tucker Carson and Pierce Morgan

treated Nick Franthes. We just covered, you know, that. So it's like, yeah, I mean, Pierce Morgan also talked directly to Tucker Carson and they had moments of disagreement as well, right? I know, Tucker Carson looked absolute. When he was trying to get Pierce Morgan to say the word that rhymes with Maggot, and he was like, say it, say it, say it.

And Pierce Morgan was like, I don't, it's homophobic, it's offensive. I just don't, I don't want to say it. And then Tucker Carson did that laugh that he does that is genuinely like, the wicked witch of the West. It was like, and then I just thought, you know what, I've got my criticisms of Piers Morgan, but he's like, he's a proper journalist, right, in that he actually asks people hard questions and has done research, rather than Tucker, you know, Carlson just kind of going, oh, the thing about Nick Frenz, you've got a lot of insights into what young men are thinking.

Are most young men thinking that Hitler is great? I know, I've no doubt that five to ten percent of American young men are ambivalent on the subject of Hitler, but I don't think that is actually a particularly majority opinion that is just the cry of the unheard that us lebs are all repressing people from saying out loud. I mean, Tucker Carlson had Marta made on recently. I don't know what's his real name, Chris? Darryl Cooper. Darryl Cooper.

I mean, these are the Nazis were the good guys actually and it was really Churchill and the UK and the rest of us that really, you know, made, you know, are responsible for it. Oh yeah, so Tucker wrote some piece for the spectator that was basically like it would have been better, I mean, genuine, this is paraphrase of what he said. It would have been better if the Allies had lost the Second World War because Europe would now be in a better state than it is, you know, because it's overrun with Sharia law and stuff. And you're like, well, I don't, I don't think it would have been a better state

for the Jews of Europe, certainly, Tucker. But like, also the places that Russia controlled were not great post-Second World War. Like, what are we here? What are we doing here? Like, the Allied victory was quite important, actually. Yeah. Yeah, so it does sound a lot like Nick Fuentes, you know. It's a similar kind of, like it's a spectrum.

and it's a scary one. But he's pretty extreme, and I think you're right. He is an interesting character because he straddles that divide. On one hand, he's friendly and treated with respect by powerful people in the MAGA movement. On the other hand, he's an absolute lunatic or, at the very least, endorses absolute lunatic views. And right at that. That's not really disqualifying for a MAGA, usually like that. lunatic views.

By the way, I should say, people are going to think that I didn't get Russia being on the... I mean, obviously, Russia switched sides in the Second World War. What I mean by that is the fact that Russian war crimes weren't prosecuted because they ended up on the winning side. But if you don't get the Allies winning, then you don't get the eventual triumph over communism. That's what I mean about, like, the trajectory of where, you know, I'm sure there would have been a new Molotov-Ribbentrop pact at some point. It's just wild to me. of all the things to be proud about as an American, like the fact that many of your young

men sacrificed themselves to liberate Europe, it just seems to be like absolutely I mean, America's a lot of shady shit but like that one, let's put World War II in the credit column. You know, and then two generations later they don't give a shit. It's weird. There was an argument, Nick Fuentes made, that just

was like, it sounded absolutely stupidly where he was saying that like the fact that the Nazis are demonized in, you know, they're considered the villains is like part of the reason the West is not proud why Americans can't be proud

and I was like what the fuck you're doing like that's the main thing Americans are tired of is like that's the one thing they're very proud of is beating the Nazis

right the British too you know like and just so it was just this weird thing of like we are not allowed to be proud of the Nazis anyone I'm like

you're not Germans right and even they don't want I think But don't you think that's just like, I think that is, I'm not, I mean, I think Nick Fuentes is doing a type of performance art. And that doesn't, I mean, that doesn't mean it doesn't need to be rebutted or it's not dangerous or whatever it might be. But I think he's basically gone, what is the one opinion that is still actually genuinely taboo? There's obviously a space for me to be the person that says it out loud. And like, you know, that's it. Like, just saying that, you know, black people are stupid and then white people is like one of those ones that actually genuinely is still a taboo thing. If I'm the one guy who's saying it, there's a market opportunity there. so yeah it's yeah i god knows what he'll he'll do but then i don't know if you read it there's been this piece it's been going around about like how screwed over white millennial men were in creative industries and publishing academia and mouser al garby had a really interesting take which is actually what you yeah like if you do the differential analysis maybe if you like white people

overall have done well like men overall have done okay you know whatever it might be but that one particular cohort of men who entered um these creative professions academia publishing like 2015 to 2020 did actually like they were they were hit by that you know like well actually next time we hire someone we really need it to be a woman next time we hire someone we really need to be an ethnic minority and there is a great deal of kind of resentment among them and like justifiably so right that if you were the one who you know people don't live their lives in the agri if you're the one that's been specifically you know affected by you know anti-discrimination efforts that have ended up discriminating against you I can totally see it but that is also

a key description of the kind of young guys who are going to work in Washington who are filling up conservative societies now, right? And I thought actually one of the other interesting things that happened to show was Rod Dreher, who was paleo conservative by my mind, going, oh my God, I've just seen what people in DC are like. And they're like, these young guys are properly anti-Semitic and misogynist. And so I think, yeah, I think his intellectual influence on what will be the next generation of kind of Republican policy makers is that's also quite alarming. Did he like that? What? No, Roderow was against

it. Like, Roger was like, kind of like Frankenstein looking at like the monster that you've created. You know, then there's been a lot of that this year. Chris Rufo, the conservative activist, did a tweet where he's like, well, I just find that the modern right is just, you know, addicted to these odd narratives, like these terrible narratives and complaining

about things. They've all gone very conspiracist and you were like, hmm, yeah, who did it? That's the fucking hot dog, man. Yeah. Matt, who is your pick? Oh, look, I don't know who's going to, he's going to trend and become, become, become. What about from the last year? Yeah, I mean, I know the interesting characters from the last year, like consulting the grometer.

I see some names that stand out to me. Matthew McConaughey, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't expect to be covering Matthew McConaughey. That was, that was a genuine surprise for me. And that was pretty, pretty interesting to see him there. And the second thing I'll say is that, you know, we just recently started a cult season. We've done Keith Theruneri and the Nixium thing and Stefan Molinier. And it's actually really interesting to look at like the actual verbal, interpersonal patter that they do and just how they manipulate people,

how they kind of gaslight people and this passive aggressive, like just all the techniques, all the slimy, nasty power moves that people do. You see them condensed. in these figures. And I think that's kind of helpful for people to hear because obviously cult leaders are an extreme case, but there are toxic people, you know, people find themselves in toxic relationships in everyday life. So I think it's good to actually have those red flags presented to you on a platter. So, yeah. Oh, I think that, you're right, like that inoculation

principle, like just learning about things like kind of, you know, nagging or whatever it might be. Like if you can just, if you can, you know, it's one of the benefits of therapy, isn't it? It's just like recognizing that there are words for things that are happening to you. You know, that these are concepts that describe people's realities. Yeah, I know Jared Lito's got a cult as well, hasn't you? The thing I think is fascinating is why is Russell Brown too lazy to found a cult? I've never seen anybody who is more primed to be a cult leader, and he just won't put the effort in. It's extraordinary.

He could have a compound right now. I mean, he did that thing where he went on tour from Messiah, right? which he, like he did a comedy stand-up and was kind of playing into the whole couple later thing, like hugging his fans. You reminded me of something he did that will forever live in my memory. I think it was when he was talking to Tucker Carson. It was some big figure where he landed like a relatively sizable interview. And he interrupted the interview by doing an ad about underpants.

But he, he, he, so. that it seemed like he did it as part of the interview where he like added in a second before he said that's a good point you know Tucker or whoever but but let me just mention you know underpants right we all have problems I did the right pair and I was like oh my God like that's a level of capitalism this is something me and Matt have lamented I feel like you know for all the people that we listen to that keep talking to us about Marxism or you know like your Hassan Pikers and whatever. They're all remarkably okay with like hyper-capitalist.

To me, they look incredibly capitalist in a way that like wouldn't have been acceptable in the 90s or 2000s to like you would have been seen as a complete cellite. Actually, Helen, one of the things like on this night, I keep saying to Chris is that like one of the things we've lost with traditional journalism. And like you were saying, the UK guy, what's his name? he was interviewing Roy Stewart No

No The bloviating old Tory That's his name Pierce Morgan Yeah I mean like you said Helen Like he at least

Does some research His team does research At least is willing To ask difficult questions I have to say I love that But when he says to Nick Fuentes Like you're just a dinosaur

Aren't you I'm the boomer You just can't get a girlfriend Can you And I think the thing is I know There's a lot of people like going, oh, it's actually 4D Chess.

The thing is, if you mock Nick Fendez's as a virgin, actually people will think he's more cool. And I'm like, are we absolutely sure about that? Because I sort of laughed at him at that moment. And I think probably people who don't know anything about why they should be on Nick Fentis' aside will probably think, oh, poor lad. Why can't if you'd be, if you could just find a nice young man

and settle down, he'd probably be a lot happier. But I think one of the other things we've lost is there was at least an understanding that advertisements was not something that the person, like the journalist, the talking head, who was doing the editorial, giving their very serious opinions or whatever about the politics. And then they don't just pivot where that person, the Walter Cronkite, start selling underpants to you. Like, you know what I mean? There would be the, yes, they would have advertisements.

Oh, it's awful. I'm so against it. I'm so against it. One of the reasons it was strong message here. We went to the BBC with it was exactly that is you're making a commercial podcast now. you have to do sponsored reads. And I actually not sure of me, my Atlantic contract would even allow me to do that, right?

Because, you know, certainly the vetting would have to be incredibly high. But everyone's just turned into QVC, right? It's all just like, to me, it's still really low rent. Like it just really cheapens you that you kind of go, well, thank you for telling us about your terrible grief over your mother's death. But for a moment, we're just going to have to go to our sponsor. And I just, it's so much for me. And I also think you're right.

What happened to that spirit that I think of? You know that great Bill Hicks routine where he's talking about doing adverts and selling out? You ever watched that? And he also going, you're sucking Satan's cock. Like, whatever happened to just that that was something that we stigmatized? They're like just taking loads of money. It's just kind of fascinating.

And like I kind of, you know, like no judgment in a way. Like if you're an independent comment creditor and it's your main job, that's how you pay the bills. And you're struck, you know, you don't do it. particularly well so you know you have to you have to do it because of whatever the youtube advertisements isn't enough and i you know i i understand all that or whatever but when it's people that are like definitively rich like much richer than me like and and then that's super rich you've no idea how i know i know i kind of thought that you know i went to saudi arabia this year i went

to cover the ria comedy festival i was like you know come and if you're dave chapelle like great they're probably playing you a million dollars but you've got it Like, what are you even going to spend that on, like, four more cold plunge pools? Like, you know. I don't, I don't understand it. Like, like, I'm not super rich, but I'm not, I'm not poor. And I think one of the best things about not being poor is that you can, you know, increase your standards.

And so, like, I'm not going to do things that I don't want to do. Like, that's one of the best things about it. Yeah, I'm not going to spend time with people that I don't want to spend time with, you know, and, like, I'm not going to go places I don't want to go. I'm not going to, you know, I'm, as you get wealthy. the wealthier, the joy is being like, I value my time extremely highly and I don't want to spend any more wild and precious life having to talk to people, I think, are awful because they're paying me loads of money and pretend to like them. Or sell underpants. There's a haunting

video, a really haunting video. I suggest you go and find it on the TikTok for the Saudi Arabia Ministry of Culture. And it's of Dave Chappelle doing like the Hollywood Walk of Fame, putting his handprints into some kind of sand that they're going to take a cast off. And genuinely, the word thousand-yard stare does not describe it. He just looks like you can just see that something has died inside him because it's all in slow-mo as well and it's just like you know what you did.

And then he went over and he said, I feel more free to talk here than I do in America and you're like, also you need to get out more. Like I know that people on the internet are annoying. I've been on blue sky, I've seen these people, you're right, many of them are very annoying. But they are literally people currently imprisoned in Saudi Arabia for criticizing the royal family

you know, or criticising Islam. Like, they will beat you on the souls of your feet. They will behead you if you speak out against the government. Sadly, that has not happened. No, I wouldn't say sadly. I'm against all violence. But like, you know what I mean? That is just not something that Joe Rogan has to worry about on a daily basis.

Come on. That thing where you went, I saw, by the way, Helen, just to note, I saw somebody that interpreted that article of yours as you saying, thank God for the free speech bros bringing comedy to the Middle East. I was like, well, yeah, that's really, that's what you were saying. The level of media literacy is wild. Like, I had loads of comments on, but I saw at least three times I saw the comment of like, I can't believe Helen Lewis would take Saudi Arabian money.

I'm not going to ever listen to her again. Yeah. I'm simply begging you to read, even just the headline, even just the headline. I know, I know. That was stunning to me. But the other thing about it was like, there are the terrible hypocritical free speech bros that you covered very well. net. But there were a couple of people, you know, Dave Chappelle would be amongst them, but also

Bill Burr, right, who came back from that. And if they'd said the whole, look, you know, whatever, I took the money and yeah, it's hypocritical or whatever, but like I never said I'm a great person. That's one thing. But what they did instead, most of them, including Bill Burr, was be like, oh, you know what? I went over there and they have McDonald's and they have doggie dogs. And they weren't all trying to chop off our heads when we got off the plane. And I was like, I never fought people in Saudi Arabia were just going to behead you when you got off a plane.

Like they talked as if like it's a revelation that, you know, in Saudi Arabia. I really like Bill Burr and I just have to be like, how Sophomoric were his comments afterwards. Because you're right, Kevin Hart just went over there, took the money, he never defended himself. I think Jimmy Carr has even defended himself about it. It's just like, I think is I enjoy money. But Bill Burr came back and he were all right.

He was just like they got a dunk in donuts. And it's true. They do have a dunk in donuts. But there was just no apparent awareness that if you go over to a totalitarian regime as a friend of the dictator, they treat you quite well. Like there's a reason why Stephen Segal is wandering around Moscow and like, you know, no one is calling him for account for the crimes of many of his films, right? Like you're a personal friend of the regime. Those people get treated quite well. I'm reminded of Tucker Calston in the Moscow supermarket, like marvelling.

a boot. They've got cheese. Cheese in Russia. The pine coin machines in the trollies, right? What the fuck is this? I know. We had those in Belfast. I know, right? In the 1990s when I was growing up and they made it to the Midlands to like

Safeway. Tucker, Tucker, what are you doing? I know. You had a thing, Helen, as well. You read a piece recently about Olivia Nuzzi, right? The review of her book. And one of the things that I noticed, kind of like seemed very familiar to me.

I haven't paid that much attention to her whole saga, except, you know, enjoying it from afar. But that thing where people escape to abstraction and metaphor and poetic topics, right? Like you're, you want to ask them, did you take that money or, you know, in that case? Like, did you have sex with RFK Jr.? And then it's like the dragon emerged from the leak and the sun crested over. And what does it even mean to have a relationship? And like when Bill Clinton attempted to do this, right,

like it depends what the definition of his is everyone was like, he's completely discredited. But like I blame Jordan Peterson. I feel like this is now the general. It's a completely accepted move to just like start waxing lyrical in poetic terms. And you kind of like people know what you're doing. I think they know what you're doing. But it seems like for some group of people,

they're like, well, what does it even mean to physically have sex with someone? What is that? What is, yeah, exactly, what are verbs? I felt a bit sorry for Olivia Nuzzi and, you know, the book was massively covered and really didn't sell at all. And the problem is that it had no natural readership

in the sense of there was a market for a kind of expose of RFK Jr. and his lax moral standards, whatever it might be. And there's also a market for like mega, propaganda and she didn't kind of do either and if we're to believe her ex-fiance Ryan Lizza she was actually sort of working

as an operative to try and get him RFK elected or confirmed essentially by the Senate as Health and Human Services Secretary. So that just completely compromises the narrative but you could just become a full-bore mega propagandist you could become a Jessica Reed Krause

who is just a kind of full-time RFK Stan and just thinks everything he does is amazing or you could be the kind of of harsh debunker or even the kind of Joan Didion-esque outside observer. And she just wasn't any of those. And sure enough, she's ended up, like, the contract has ended with Vanity Fair. Like, yeah, I do feel a bit sorry for because I don't think she quite realized that she'd ended up with no core constituency at all from that book. While we have you here, it wouldn't be fair to not ask you this. Don't worry. So on page 283, you say, no. So, you know, reform.

You heard about them, this movement in the UK, right, polling quite well and people are concerned. And the UK political scene is kind of your thing, right? And that's a populist movement on the right that a lot of people are concerned. But it's headed by Nigel Farage currently. And like the far right is prone to collapsing in infighting over time. So I'm just curious from your perch in the UK. what does it look like the prospects for reform to continue to hold the lead like to the next election or are the conservatives possibly, you know, come back or can we, can we hold on the

Labour government for like more than a single term? What can we expect? I have what I call a kind of spin cycle theory of politics, which is that quite often the government, an unpopular government, will get voted out. And there's basically nothing they can do for a certain amount of time until everybody's got equally annoyed with the next guys. And I think that process will probably take quite a long time, at least one electoral cycle for the Conservatives. So I think it's very hard to see how they revive in the short term. Kerry Badnock has got better as opposition leader. She was absolutely hopeless. And actually now, even at Prime Minister's question, she's got a bit better. It's also weirdly, Labour's interest in this are difficult because

on one level they want to keep propping up the conservatives to split the vote on the right. You know, that's a sort of block of voters. But also, they want to run the next election on a fear message against Nigel Farage, right? He's scary. He's, you know, he's terrible. So they want their main opponent to be reform. I think the difficulty with it is that reform, as you say, currently leading the polls, in terms of their challenge of even getting to a minority government, they've currently got back up to six seats again now.

but even that we say that that is a symptomatic of one of their constant problems which is the heavy churn of people that they've always had even when Farage had MEPs in the European Parliament almost none of them ended the full cycle still in the UKIP or whatever the party was at the time

the party has traditionally attracted quite fringy people who find it very difficult to get along with others on exactly the same way you would find on the far left you know these are not people who are willing like dead-eyed careerists are willing to shut up in the hope that they'll get power

they're often quite colourful characters who find it difficult to work in establishments. So that acts against reform and then in terms of the mountain they've got to climb to get a majority government they need 326 seats so they need to gain 320 seats. Now British politics has been incredibly

frothy, just huge swings particularly that you know the same thing of some of the swings in Scotland to the SMP you know when they were at their peak enormous so it's not impossible that like lots of seats on paper you'd think aren't going to do that and British politics

has become way more multi-party in that there are seats now that are genuinely four-way marginals so at the last election people were very efficient in knowing who the people they wanted to vote for to get the Tories out would be

whether that was like the Liberal Democrats in some seats or Labour and others if they're also teed off with Labour and they want to vote to get Labour out then that tactical voting might collapse so I totally don't write off reform the other reason I think for kind of just journalistic reasons that you shouldn't do that

is that they are presenting themselves as an alternative party of government. Nigel Farge wants to be prime minister. Again, it comes back to this idea. We're not grading him on a special populist curve of like, you know, he doesn't actually have to run a treasury. He wants to run the treasury, like, because that's his plan. He gets marked on the same scale as Labor and the Conservatives.

And I think as a matter of kind of hygiene, you know, you have to treat him like that. What are the main issues that they're campaigning on? Is it immigration, I assume? Yeah, and you know, great. immigration has recently fallen quite drastically. So there was a big so-called Boris wave. So Boris Johnson essentially, one of the things that he did, he gave refuge to people from Hong Kong who didn't, you know, who were being sort of persecuted by Chinese authorities, accepted quite

a few Ukrainians for the Ukrainian war. And then also did stuff like they had a special care workers visa to address the fact there were huge shortages in the care sector. And now the typical worker who in the care sector is like a kind of Filipino or Nigerian like middle age mum of two. So a lot of those people brought dependence with them, which is very different from like your kind of classic Polish plumber wave of immigration that we had, you know, maybe in the late 2010s. We were young, single guys who came on their own. So there was, you know, there was a year when net migration was like a million, which was kind of extraordinary. So there's that background of like there is genuine demographic change. Added on top of the two specific

issues they're very hot on are. There's an asylum seeker backlog of processing claims and those are mostly young single men who are being held in hotels. And local communities really don't like having a group of unemployed young men hanging around their streets, which I think is not an unreasonable point. So Labor need to deal with that processing a lot faster if they're going to neutralise that as an issue. And then the other one is small boats across the channel, which again, in terms of the overall migration picture is a very small percentage of it, but it's a very visible symbol of, like, you don't have control of your borders. And those two issues are huge for driving reform support. Plus, just to generalise sense that, as is always the case

with these populist movements, like things just don't feel like they're getting better. The economy is stagnant here. It's not growing in any real significant way. Post-COVID, the benefits bill has really spiked. You know, there are obviously people who have been having a really tough time coming out of COVID for whatever reason, particularly with mental health issues. So there's not a lot of money around. And it's not like, you know, it was under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown where the economy is growing so you can redistribute it more to people at the bottom end. You're taking it away from people in a very obvious way to give it to other people.

And I'm sure lots of that holds in Australia or even in Japan. You've got your shiny new female Prime Minister, Chris, who's quite right wing. That's right. She is quite right wing and unbehaving as such. like upsetting people, especially in the Asia, around, you know, comments about Taiwan and so on. But this is, you know, this is great news for me. Someone said this to me last night because I've been talking about how much I've wanted to go back to Japan. And she was like, the thing is that it's really good if you've upset China, if Japan has upset China, because there'll be far fewer Chinese tourists and it'll be actually be easier to walk around Kyoto in the daytime.

Well, quite true. Yeah. I want her to continue annoying China, but not up to the point of actual a hot war. That'd be too far. Yeah, that would, I agree. I'm quite, quite a fever of that as well. But yeah, she is, I think like Japan was looking for a charismatic politician after Abe's, I mean, you know, Abe, I don't exactly think he was a charisma bomb, right? But Donald Trump weirdly really loved him, right? It was like one leader that Donald Trump absolutely loved. Yeah, and also Avey had two shots of it, right? Like he was

originally the Prime Minister and he resigned because of like a bowel illness and then he and he came back and the second time was Abbeinomics and all that kind of stuff. So like the first time he was regarded as like a disappointing failure but like after him then you

had the series of you know forgettable Prime Ministers and now you have a personality again. So like I do think just having a leader who people recognize the face and name. That seems to have boyed people, but I mean, we'll see. It's not great, but part of the reason that she's been able to rise is like by playing in the anti-foreign sentiment as a foreigner.

I'm not hugely in favor of that, but, you know, you do what you have to do. Super interesting. No, I know. I think it's, like, Japan is always, because obviously it's a castle too. of bizarre obsession of the online right is that they would just kind of go, oh, Japan, you know, Japan doesn't let any foreigners in and like there, no one has a go at them. So I think it's kind of interesting that even in a country with such a, like a tiny percentage of foreign born people living there, that you can still coast that to political power. It's kind of fascinating

to me. That's, that's incredible. And also, even in the, the kind of English-speaking content creation stuff in Japan, because, you know, like, that's still hot, right? Even though it's sort of played out genre, there's still plenty of people, you know, just making content about like living in Japan or videos about more stuff in Japan, and some of which I enjoy. But there was a kerfuffle there a couple of months ago because there was a content creator called Oriental Pearl who did a video that was look at how dirty. Already sounds problematic to if I'm honest with you. Yeah, well, that did come up. But she, her general content is Japanese people stunned that white person speaking fluent Japanese, right?

That's her genre of content. But she made a video like walking around the street in Japan saying, look at all this rubbish and graffiti, what is happening to Japan, you know, like, and the very clear implication was, you know, something has come in that is causing the society to, you know, lose its reputation. And then a larger content creator, Chris Broad, made a video responding to it. like saying that's a load of bullshit, I walk down that street and blah, blah, blah. And that led to like a little kerfuffle.

But the kerfuffle was around, like, playing into anti-foreigner sentiment. I mean, she is a foreigner in Japan, but generally speaking, the white foreigners are not the ones that are very target, right, when it comes to this kind of anti-foreigner sentiment. So, yeah. Well, it was one of the really weirdly interesting things about being in Saudi Arabia and seeing the kind of class stratification. system there, because there's tourists, you know, who are primarily white or maybe Chinese, Saudi citizens who tend to wear traditional dress so you can tell it, that's who they are. And then there's just huge amount of migrant labourers working on all the massive amount of construction things to the extent that, you know, there's like, on the Riyadh

metro, there are separate carriages just for men. And so you have three, you have first-class carriages, which is filled with Saudi citizens, the family carriage, which is usually filled with tourists and then the men carriage, which is usually filled with like Bangladeshi or Pakistani guys who come in. And that's just, you know, that was just kind of fascinating to me in demographic terms that they're, you know, those people often work in really tough conditions. That the way that you kind of reconcile your society to migration is just like, but, you know, we make them miserable. Don't worry, they're here, but they are, they are miserable. You might imagine some of the comedians might have noticed that, but I guess, you know, it's hard to get everything on when you're just there for a

off the page. So, so true. Right, let's do this. Let's do this quiz. Let's quiz. I'm so ready. Yeah. Yeah. Mike, are you ready? Are you ready? Am I ready? I'm never, I'm never ready to have a quiz off with Chris. It's me versus Matt Helm. You remember the rules. It's very unfair. I just don't think this is fair because Matt just doesn't care as much as you do. I can't remember the name of someone we were just talking about 30 seconds ago. Matt, you were just complained that the image generated by the AI for the Christmas thing where I put Helm and a bunch of people and that it's, it's, generated you looking older, this is why I'm up. This is right. It knows, it's got, you know, it's bad into all the treating. All you're moaning about, I can't remember things. It's too,

Steve. Yeah, it's done you as a commogeant. Okay, well, look, I think you're fine, Matt. I think you're going to boss this. Okay. Question one. As we're recording this, Vanity Fair has just published a series of interviews with White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles, in which she gives a large number of spicy quotes describing fellow Maga Stallwoods. I'm going to give you her description of somebody in the senior levels of the White House and you tell me who it is that she's describing, okay? A conspiracy theorist for a decade. Who is she describing?

In Maga, that's like all of them. So she's describing someone senior in Maga as a conspiracy theorist for a decade. Yeah. I mean, the obvious one is RFJ Jr., but it's not going to be him. Stephen Miller? No, Stephen Miller's like saying that's sort of the problem. It'd be much better if Stephen Miller was mad. That was my guess, Matt.

What do you go for? I don't know. Name anyone in MAGA. Marjorie Taylor Green? Yeah, I mean, is she in the administration? No, she's not even walking out Congress. Yeah, no, the Epstein Pals. That's right.

What about Vivek Ramos farming? He's currently running for the governor of Ohio And he wrote a piece for the New York Times this week Saying people keep just saying Incredibly racist things about me I don't know what's happened to this country Didn't he get kicked out of Doge in the like first week He was supposed to be coach era of Doge with Musk

But Musk does not play well with other children There's been a lot of genres of this happening Like why the Tiger is suddenly eating my face I never expected this to happen There is at Helm The answer is, of course, J.D. Vance. Oh. See, that was the first name that popped on my head and I discounted him thinking, no, not the vice president.

Not JD. Not JD. Not J.D. X. Zero. Okay. Who is Susie Wiles describing here? An alcoholic's personality. Oh, well.

I want to go for RFK. I want to go for RFK Jr. there. That was Donald Trump. she said that Donald Trump reminded her of her father who's a very famous sports broadcaster who was an alcoholic and if you're actually something that Olivia Nuzzi says in the book too that she found it easy to cover Maga because one of her parents was kind of mentally ill and flaky

and therefore just having you know dealing with someone whose sense of reality was not aligned with your own was quite good training for dealing with the Donald Trump White House okay who according to Susie Wiles quotes completely whiffed the Epstein files release completely whiffed. Is it in the Magadman? I realize to know that.

It is. In many ways it's a woman who was in charge of releasing the Epstein files. Pam Bondi. Correct, Chris. Correct. You've broken your duck. Talking of weird. Yeah, thank you.

Who did she describe as an odd odd duck? Can I just keep saying RFK Jr. for every answer and eventually it'll hit. But who, no, come on. Who is the weirdest person? who has been associated with that administration this year. Candazon's? No, come on, but like weird, but also powerful and also in charge. Maybe the kind of person you might have posed with a chainsaw.

I was going to say Elon Musk and then you said chainsaw? Yes, right. Elon Musk? Yes. Yeah. He's an odd duck. Of course. He's a very odd duck.

Of course. Okay, there we go. Good. So, one all. This year, you covered the career of nexium cult leader Keith Ranieri, however we pronounce his name, the self-declared smartest man in the old. world. But which 2000's TV series did his right-hand woman Alison Mack star in? I know. Matt, would you like the guess? I forgot this is the thing that you do when you get

this. You just go, I know. I know. You know, Chris? Because that's an absolutely useless piece of information that there is no need to know under any circumstances. So I hope you're proud of yourself. No, I don't know. I don't know. It's about Super Mama. It's a small It is indeed Smallville. Yeah. Okay. When asked to appear at the Riyadh comedy festival, which podcaster said, listen, what's your problem? Well, they have slaves and they kill everyone.

Hey, hey, hey, hey, get over it. Get over it. So what? So what they have slaves? If you pay me lots of money, I will not comment on what's going on. In fact, I'll ignore it. And if something that I really disagree with is happening, the more money you pay me, the less I'm going to think about it. Who said that?

I know. Oh, right. You just said it. I absolutely respect this person for turning it into a bit about how, you know, like, unbelievably much they'd sold out. Quite funny. Tim Dylan. Correct. It was

Tim Dylan. That does sound like something Dylan was saying. And he does deserve credit for that. Yeah, very funny. And then they disinvited him because he's like, oh, you can't have slaves. And then they were like, no, you actually can't talk about how. That's the one thing you can't talk about it. Not even in a joking

way. Yeah. Nope. This year, Douglas Murray confronted Joe Rogan over platforming Nazi apologist Darrell Cooper Martyr made. How did Cooper once describe Winston Churchill? Okay, A, a terrible painter with personality issues.

B, a fat nobody. C, the chief villain of World War II or D, a secret drag queen. C. Well, I was going to say definitely C, but that seems too obvious. You are both correct.

You are both correct. It was indeed the chief villain That's not incredibly obvious, Matt. That's only incredibly obvious if you know that specific. But that's his main thing. But that's his main thing. That's his main thing. I thought I was using like, did he call him a drag queen? He could have.

It's plausible. Very plausible. Don't doubt yourself, Matt. Who wrote this post after being criticized this year? The life of a high-achieving working class person in elite spaces is to be constantly accused of not really having done the things you've done. This has happened to me so many times in my life. I have come to expect it from polite British society,

but I did not expect it from Rory Stewart. Go on Matt. I think you've got this one. Our favourite working class hero, Gary, Gary Mayer. He's been hard done by his whole life. The thing is, it's good for you because you're both outside the British class system, right? Like, I can't say anything rude about Gary Stevenson because people are went, oh, you went to Oxford, me, you went to private school.

But, like, Chris has got this amazing get out of jail. free card where he just goes, I'm actually Irish. Yeah. Norvin Irish. Come on. Yeah. I have Norvin Irish. And I was incredibly bad university. So, you know, they're both golden. Yeah. The former co-host of All In and current White House Cryptozar David Sacks had which somewhat on the nose theme for his 40th birthday party. Okay. A. Mary Antoinette. B, pimps and hose. C. Brewster's Millie.

or D. Slavery. Oh my God. He's such a dick. He's such a dick. He's such a dick. I would say Pimps and Hose because I think that's about his class level.

It probably is Pimson and Hose, but I'll go Brewster's Billions just as a thing, but I feel like it could be any of them. Yeah. So he didn't do slavery. He didn't do slavery. No, he didn't do slavery.

It was in fact, It wasn't about Mary Antoinette. Oh, I was going to say, you know, that is so pretentious. So there's the most pretentious option, and that would be a reasonable. How can you even do that as a theme? Like, maybe I don't know enough about it. What's tasteless, but also quite like pretentious. Yeah, and the first thing is he told everybody not to post about it on social media,

not to post any photos, and he was outed because Snoop Dogg posted about it on his socials. Snoop dog. Of course he did. Old Snoop. I thought you'd appreciate it. my other options then that Bruce's Millions is a film all about somebody

who has to lose as much money as possible which is in the quickest time as possible which is very much what happens to a lot of people who get involved in crypto day trading so it's from the 80s so I thought there's a chance you know they like 80 stuff

they could have yeah and similarly odd theming was that the Mara Lago Halloween party this year was themed around the Great Gatsby a novel about a eugenicist com man so again

it's too old It's always on the nose. They just like the hats. Okay, for a bonus point, at last year's all-in Christmas party, ticket $650 a head, what did Chamathapitaya give an award to as his moment of the year? Okay. A, going bow hunting with Elon Musk and Joe Rogan. B, having sex with his wife.

C, winning $100,000 one night in poker. Or D, finding working out how to change the clock on his oven to daylight saving time. I feel like it's going to be I'm going to say C. The poker. Yeah, Paco. I regret to inform me it was in fact having sex with his wife. Oh my God.

That's the greatest sexual experience of his life. I love to think that he has not changed the clock on his oven to daylight saving time. It's just still that. Okay. This year you covered leftist darling Naomi Klein, who wrote doppelganger about being confused with Naomi Wolf. Can you remember, Chris, really, the substance of Naomi Wolfe's greatest ever tweet. Clue, it was about Northern Ireland. Yes, I do remember.

I don't know the exact wording of it, but I remember her saying that she, was it that she went the Ireland and then she said something about like how it was, she basically said it was like peaceful, the air here is like peaceful like it's been since the 1970s. or something. I can't remember she like explicitly let me give you the exact okay it was amazing to go to Belfast which does not yet have 5G

and feel the earth sky air human experience feel the way it did in the 1970s calm still peaceful restable neutral I'm sorry I see it

so they these last questions are infuriating because they're just reminded of like how they're all so terrible and they keep getting away with it? I love that. When I think of 1970s Belfast, I think, God, what a

prelapsarian paradise it was. Okay. Which of your gurus this year gave a lecture series that argued, per the Guardian's reporting, that international financial bodies, which make it more difficult for people to shelter their wealth in tax havens, are one sign the Antichrist

may be amassing power and hastening Armageddon. Oh. We both know this one. Do you remember his name, Matt? Do you remember his name? I've got the gorometer right in front of me. Peter Thier. That's your cheesy bastard.

Yeah, it is Peter Tee. Yeah. He also, this is the thing, came out against the Nuremberg trials, saying maybe it would have been healthier just to execute the top Nazis without trial. He also said the identity of the Antichrist was a Luddite, quotes, it's someone like Greta or Eliezer. It's not Andresen, by the way. I think Andresen is not.

Antichrist. Good to have that clear enough. He's on the case. It's like the famous fire and he's he knows he's eliminated a few suspects but it couldn't be greeted. I like to imagine Mark Andreessen sitting at home, you know, hearing out like, what? No, don't say it's not.

It's like that just makes it sound suspicious. There's actually, there's a very funny bit when Tim Dillon goes on Joe Rogan and he talks about how weird it is to have your one hobby being like the Antichrist. He says like, why not just like ice fishing? Right? Like, I'm not weird. What's your hobby? Oh, probably the Antichrist. Yeah. Totally not weird at all. Okay, last question. In August, the Financial Times is Jemima Kelly attended a party at a 15th century house in Surrey in honor of Curtis Yarvin. In her story, which of the following things does Curtis Yarvin not do? A, Eater Werther's original

B, talk about the Jacobite rising of 1745 C, confess that he once got dumped moments after dropping acid or D, dance energetically to an electronic remix of a Gregorian Plain chant. What he doesn't do?

He did three of those in front of her. He didn't do one of those. I don't think he will have took the Werver's original because he doesn't have tears. What was the second last one, thinking about taking... Confess that he once got dumped moments after dropping acid. Hmm. That sounds like something you might say, God damn it.

Do you know what a Werver's original is, by the way, Mark? Not really. Is it a biscuit? It's like a hard toffee, a very hard toffee. Ah, all right. Um, that does, that's not something he's going to say. Yeah, I'm going to say that one because there's... You're going to whether's original? Yeah. Why they help him? Yeah. He did in fact have a Werther's original. He did not.

dance energetically to an electronic remix of Gregorian plane chance. That seemed to most likely. The guy running the party would only let them have like authentic plain chance basically, not like these newfangled nuance. Do you want some really exciting news? Yes. I award Matt,

the Peter Thiel point, which I have done, because the previous question was literally about Belfast, which seems a bit of rigged in favour of Chris. Yeah. Then this year, it's a draw. Okay, a draw. Yeah. Oh, okay.

I feel like that's as good as a win. That's as good as a win. I feel like that. Which I feel like as a win. That's good. That's pretty good. Chris briefly looked fuming at the thought of I might have thrown the game in favor of Matt altogether. I was kind of ready to like, hold on.

So you thought you were quite safe giving me the pit of tail point. Then you realized, oh my God. Oh my God. What are they done? Didn't I get a bonus point for the, you know, most of the 1970s tweet? I feel like, you know, I got most of that. Oh, no, I gave you the point for that. But I always said that was like a question.

It was like, Chris, like, let me to ask you questions about your life. I wasn't even included on that. That's true. That's true. I do remember you recounting that tweet to me, Chris. That's good. It's such a banger, such a banger. That's the thing.

Like, to be a really successful. for guru, you've got to just have like a complete lack of shame that you would, I mean, I would just crawl into a hole. I'd be think, I wake up in a cold sweat most nights thinking about that tweet. But, you know, you just can't, you can't live like that. Can I also tell you, Helen, that Matt and I have been listening to Manosphere stuff and we've got a couple of thoughts that we want to. No, no, we've been, we've been listening to Scott Galloway content and him talking with Chris Williamson in particular. And, you know, I'm not. the kind of guy that goes around performatively identifying as a male feminist. It's just something

I embody by my nature as a crude person. But listening to men moan about being men and how sad it is men's problems aren't giving enough attention. Or Constantine Kissin said that, you know, he's heard that like feminists have said that women were mistreated and like there's some, there might be something to that, but there's definitely the real issues that men have experienced. Like, I have discovered that from consuming this, it's making

me dislike men more. You're becoming a bizandrist. It's turning me to a feminist too, listening to them. The opposite of the reptiles. I'm, oh, they can't, they just talk about

men stuff so much. And to make it sound so sad, it's like, I'm a man. You know, I'm very open to hearing, oh, you know, followers aren't paid enough attention. They don't get enough rewards. And wives are really, like, they're not really giving enough of credit to the husband. I'm like, yes, that's okay. But like, they do it so much.

And they're such, like, wallowing, like, such shit is it? Like, Chris Williamson keeps getting triggered that he has to performatively acknowledge that women might have had it a bit harder. You know, he's like, I have to, every time. I want to explain that men are having a bad thing. I have to acknowledge that women also have had it hard at times. Yeah, I just say that. That comes up a lot, though.

I can't remember where it was that someone who was talking about men got asked a question about women. And my reaction to it was I don't think it's even particularly an ideological thing. I think it's just if you do like a Q&A session or you're being interviewed by journalists, they will always try and find the like uncovered angle, right? People don't want to be spoon fed. You come and talk to them about something. They will always try and find something.

Oh, you haven't mentioned X because that makes them look more clever. So whenever I would go and do feminist book talks, someone would always ask me a question about men. And like sometimes the people I was like being interviewed with have got quite grumpy. But I just sort of think it's a natural human reaction. If you've heard an hour of somebody talking about women, you kind of want to go, oh, you know,

if you hear an hour of somebody talking about salt, you want to talk about pepper, right? Yeah. So I just think, don't over read from that, but that's actually you can't talk about men's stuff. You can't talk about anything without someone else popping up to go, I just need to say some of the subtext of which is that I, I actually know things that you don't and I'm smarter than you.

Like that's, unfortunately, that's just human nature. The thing that I find fascinating about some of that discourse is I was thinking about this. It runs in parallel to the idea that like the feminization of culture is really bad and like toxic empathy is killing us all. And so I'm kind of, I find it really odd when there's manosphere content that is essentially kind of like the worst stereotype of like moaning women. You know what I mean? There's lots of good manosphere content that is like just actually like, here's some stuff that men are more

interested in and women are interested in on average, like here are, like, some of the early Peterson stuff was very much like, have you considered that girls might like you more if you are tidy and presentable and you hold down a, you know, well-paid job? It was actually just quite useful, very basic life advice. The thing where it's all the fault of women is quite tough. I mean, like, the picture is just mixed now. There are situations in which men get discriminated against, but there are still ways in which they are advantaged. And that you just have to be kind of open about the fact that it's not fluid like that. But to go back to that compact essay, you know, the guy was saying he would have had it much

easier in ordinary times. And I was like, well, hang a minute, what were ordinary times, you know? But I'm sure, I don't know about the countries that you're in, but like, US and UK had marriage bars for like lots of professions until the 50s or 60s, you know, and Japan is very much like this, right? Like if you marry as a woman, then it's really actually hard to continue on in your career. So, you know, it's not like there was a certain. like date like 2014 where the button was flipped and basically everything that happened previously to women and minorities started happening to white men the picture is that lots of people get screwed over in lots of different ways and it's not as easy as a kind of you know it's not

like when women didn't have the vote where it was very clear there was one oppressor and one oppressed it's actually now really variegated but yeah yeah it's interesting the tone of that content because it's often quite stereotypically feminine I think in ways actually the a man as I normally wouldn't like. That's what Chris was getting at. It's come up with us a bit. Like even that far right, you know, Bracicke-Ferentes?

Nick Frentes, yeah. He's an incredibly effeminate, unbrough-like guy, all right? And he winters and moans. And the tone on Chris Williamson that really annoys Chris, I think, is just this winging, moaning kind of tone, right? And it's like a, it's a bad stereotype of a

you know like it's not a like like the careful math I know I'm just putting at the thing I find very like very fascinating about Chris Williamson is like how much better does he think his life would have gone if he hadn't been oppressed that's the kind of thing that I think is kind of fascinating like what has been

stolen from you well they're always talking about this is the thing though he's not talking about himself he's talking about them and and just like Jordan Peterson it's not so much himself it's all the young men that he's crying for and so there are these theoretical young men that are too afraid to even talk to a woman because they'll be accused of sexual

harassment that are being, you know, all these unfair expectations put on them. You know, the list goes on, right? This is his favorite talking point. And I don't believe him when he says that you're not allowed to talk about the troubles of young men without. They're definitely allowed to talk about that. They definitely do. And I don't think he does make the obligatory mention of the oppression of the women before he does that every time. But, I mean, I'm around a lot. lot of young people because all my kids are young adults now and and they all have boyfriends and girlfriends and friends groups that are young men and young women and I've just I've just met a lot of young people and they're it's I just don't recognize any of this theoretical stuff

that the internet is projecting on these people they're incredibly normal healthy well-adjusted and there's not much difference between the girls and the boys to be honest they're they seem fine. I think that's the thing that's interesting about the Andrew Tate thing is I think that's actually often like a pre-teen period of boys who really don't maybe, like they're just coming into puberty, they don't really know how to talk to girls. I think

by 19, most people are out the other side of that. But you're right, it's kind of, yeah, it is fascinating. I mean, there are some really good books on it, right? Richard Reeves wrote a book that had very interesting suggestions. Like, he said that maybe you should get boys to start school the year later than girls, right? Just give them more

time developmentally so that they're not, they're not you know, they're not behind. Like, there are people who are doing interesting policy work on some of this stuff. But it's not that, is it? It's taking some real problems and then turning them into a kind of grievance machine. That's kind of fascinating to me. Anyway, we'll have to. We're winching and moaning now too.

So that's a bad note to, anyway, we can stop. I would just always say, if you are listening to content or consuming content, that at the end of it, you feel worse, more apathetic, like everything's stacked against you, like your life will never get any better, stop consuming that content. Like, everybody has problems, but the joy of life is struggle and overcoming those, like, and I would say the same thing to women who say, you know, the, like feminist content that is just about how dreadful men are is not really going to help you live in a world in which half the people are going to meet are going to be men. You need to be, you need to be really careful

about, like, I think your exact word is the correct one, like, wallow content. It's just ultimately not going to help you climb out of the horrible place that you're in. So let's be on a happy Christmas note. He's not wallowing. Yes, absolutely. Well, you know, that's a dangerous message to give the people that listen to our podcast. Yeah. A little bit of wallowing.

A little bit of wallowing in your own cropulence is okay. We're joyous about it. But the last thing I go say, Helen, before I let you go, is that, you know, you said earlier that, you know, people are selling out because you can see that they're doing these things just because of the amount of money and the exposure it gives them and they don't want to do it. That's how we know you like us. I know. We can't interview.

Nothing. Nothing. Except we used your time. But we clearly do appreciate it every time. And yeah, so it wouldn't be Christmas without you. And thank you for coming back on. Well, we get happy, happy holidays. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, they won't let you. They won't let you say it. Yeah. All right. Good to see again, Helen. and yeah, good luck for the 2026. Bye-bye. Thank you.

Thank you.