Decoding the Gurus - DTG's Face to Face Reflections 2024

Episode Date: January 19, 2024

In this episode, our intrepid hosts embrace a rare opportunity for sincere self-reflection, spurred by a face-to-face meeting in an inspiring ryokan in a Japanese mountain setting. The discussion delves into the nature of the podcast, audience capture, underlying motivations, and their thoughts on the journey so far and the path ahead.In an act of pure parasocial manipulation, listeners are invited to imagine the snowy ryokan landscape and 'taste' the amber liquid savoured during the conversation. And should you desire to TRULY see the location (with your eyes) photos and additional videos are up on Patreon.In any case, we genuinely do want to send a New Year note of thanks to all the listeners for their support, especially the smart ones who agree with us and recognise that Matt is the bad one.Normal decoding services to resume shortly...

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Music Music Music Music Music Music Well, so here we are in a snow falling mountain retreat inugi-Chi could be could be anything could be anything a golden liquid with a pungent couldn't possibly come out you could comment uh not um not speaking super loudly and and just not annoying people around us being perfectly normal this is yeah that's right we're low impact by kakujin that's right that's what we strive for but yep it's a beautiful location we're here

together very special um i'm in japan chris remains in japan we both hang out in tokyo we both have come to beautiful Nozama Onsen. Mm. We've done some skiing. Chris fell down a lot. I did. One of us drove here in the car over several hours and the other took a luxurious train ride in peace.

So that might have factored in, you know. Oh yeah, yeah. That's right. You weren't at your best. No one's judging. That's, it's right. You weren't at your best. No one's judging. It's... Northern Irish people, were they designed for the skiing down mountains? Like living in caves. Living in caves, hunting through forests, ambling around. Like, yeah, you know, but skiing down on logs...

Is it natural? Yeah, maybe not so much. Oh, God, man. Okay. Okay. But that's fine. A little bit dark. He's just saying he's turning the lights down.

Oh, good. He's not saying shut up. Good, I thought he was saying shut up. I heard more squishy. Yeah. And usually people never talk to. So this is going to go mutilating in a minute. That's just, that might even be better.

That's fine, as long as we're not being too loud. No, no, that's it. Normally that's what would have happened. Normally we get told we're too loud a lot in Japan, by my wife mainly, but also sometimes by strangers. But that was it. Oh, no, it's not. It's still...

Okay. It's fine. It's fine. Where were where were we okay so here we are we went to we went to a bar and we did meet and and had the initial you know the horror at seeing each other's faces and all that kind of thing but yeah what is that you look like that but it was but it was okay and we did what people probably would have requested, which was get horrendously drunk in a random little, small, very nice pub in a cool area in Tokyo.

And it was fun. Yeah. And we did attempt to record things, as we've mentioned, did other things, but it wasn't particularly coherent. I may have picked up hand injuries, which you probably can't see in this camera. Yeah, riding your bicycle home. From attempting to ride a bicycle in a non-drunken way. I was doing theory of mind.

I was like, if the police see me and... See, I adopted the alternative approach because the trains had stopped by this time and I just basically threw handfuls of money at a Tokyo taxi driver, which got me home safely, but. No, see, I did, because I believe I was involved in that taxi journey, like at the start. Did I just send you off in the direction of a taxi or didn't I speak to the taxi driver?

You put me in a taxi, yeah. I did, yes. So that's okay. That was just, I was like, did I? I'm not entirely sure what happened there. But I got a taxi back myself to the place where I live. But I remembered I need to take the bike from the station, from my house to the station in the morning.

So the bike is parked there. So I got to take the bike from the station to my from my house to the station in the morning so the bike is parked there so i got a ticket back but i could have walked it that's a bit that was the the one thing that didn't entirely so i instead i i did realize what was happening at the time and then i did like i say fury of mind If I was a policeman and I was watching me, would I clock me as drunk? So how do non-drunk people cycle? They do not cycle like I cycled, but there were no policemen watching, so it was okay. Yeah, so typically non-drunk cyclists

don't collide into walls or whatever it is you did. Something, there are flashes of like a non-drunk person but yeah yeah um but but that was very fun and and we just now recorded something with matt's daughter which you will hear but but after that, we thought we would take things down. We moved the lighting down, come to the snowy fall scenery and discuss the serious matters. The podcast business, the discourse. The discourse calls, discourse beckons. That's right. You know, the decoding the Guru's things that we can't say in front of other people,

it would be too much for them. Their innocent minds. Well, they wouldn't give a shit. They wouldn't give a shit. And having their fears of disgust as they look at us taking things seriously, that would be, it would be harder. I'm trying to imagine just a blank look on Lana's face as we bring up some of those just nonsense that we do. Because she's normal.

But we're not. And you're not. Because you're watching this. So let's get into it. That's right. So I believe, I'm pretty sure it's three years since we started the podcast. Because we started in, is it two years? No, it's more than that.

I have no idea i'm pretty sure it was september 2020 you're looking at me it was one of those so it's only three or two years that's probably free but like in any case it's been a good while it's been longer than because we've got 100 episodes we We're not going to have Done over a hundred episodes In like two years No we do like one We get one out

Every couple of weeks So yeah It must be I mean we're more than that With all the Patreon stuff But like So it's three years It's three years

And we're here On the annual DTG retreat This is where all the Patreon is when we built this retreat just for us no this is not Patreon money it's a family

trip that I've invaded but it is a reasonable time to take stock of the podcast how's it going? You all right? You're not quitting?

I was going to say, yeah, you know, you've made me think. You know, this talk about three years. Where are we going? Are we going in circles? I mean... Have we got rid of any gurus? No, they're just going stronger. Well, then...

Time to pull the plug, maybe. That's... No, no, no, no. It'll never, it'll never. You'll never, you'll never stop. But yeah, I, so I think the main thing, I'll speak for me and you can contradict it immediately after, but like the main thing with the podcast for me is I enjoy it and

I I like I don't like all the people that we cover but I like talking to Matt about it and I like doing the research it's the kind of thing I like to do it bizarrely and uh and I like the feedback and stuff and the arguments that we get into. And I like applying critical lenses to material. That's why I'm an academic. That's why I like the podcast thing. And I do think that, like, to a certain extent, the stuff that we do on the podcast, not that it makes these huge moves,

but I think it does have an impact on sometimes on the way that the like gurus that we cover are perceived and i'm not saying like by tons of people or whatever but i i think like uh sometimes some of the people that we cover and and criticize our points that we bring up, I do see them reflected elsewhere. And I'm not saying that people are listening to us and then picking them up, but I think it just contributes to the general stuff around them. So you don't need us really to tell you how much of a ghoul Scott Adams or something is, but I would say...

Some people do. Not you. Not you, the listener, but some people. but like the you know hooverman or something and the same thing when the very first episode we did with like brett and eric and we were talking about the peer review process i think we had a view of that that a lot of people that were critical of like eric and brett for all the reasons didn't because they're yeah approaching more from political or you know, cultural war kind of things and I think that's a general tendency.

It's one of the things that lots of people don't like about us because they want us to be more political or that kind of thing. So, but I don't. So I know that people think that we're political and we have a political view, but we don't think it's that interesting. It's not central to what we do. No, I think that's the key thing. I mean, like it or not, a lot of academic or scientific material is part of the fuel, the grist for the culture war mill, right? And it could be, you know, vaccinations one day or it could be whatever statistics on

police brutality or whatever you know what i mean but the the academic evidence is something that pretty much everyone across the board makes recourse to and often misrepresents misunderstands whatever uses as propaganda or selectively cherry picks some terrible quality studies so you know it's a great it's a great point to just dip in and you know we do this for a living like reading literature and you know creating literature and doing collecting data and understanding what's good and bad and strong and weak about methodology so um you know it can't be bad to to keep on doing that so yeah have you finished finished my reflection yeah that was a i just like muffled on and kept going you know what happened so no no you hadn't i'd finished so your general

reflections are are welcomed as well if you have them of course i do yeah or do i yeah i mean yeah i look same as you mainly um it's it's fun we've we've continued having fun um it's it's never stopped being fun and we've gotten slightly better at doing it from when we first started maybe i don't know maybe we've got a better editor no we do have a better editor i mean not that our past editor was better i mean but better in comparison to being new yes that's right um so yeah i think we can make some really good stuff in the coming year with with his help because we can focus on just doing what we do well and he can do the editing and do that well which means we can produce maybe more stuff and better stuff and so that'll be good um what else what else what else have i

forgotten chris uh well there's i i guess one of the things is like the you know the the fact that we cover people but they don't they don't really go away or you know, there's never ending supply of like Bullshit and gurus. So does it ever feel like well, well this yeah, like it is futile in a sense But the way you framed it you just reminded me what I was going to comment on the way you framed it is correct right and the good thing about I Think I think being a normal kind of researcher academic or scientist or whatever or even in other fields too like journalism or whatever right i think normal people understand that you know you're not like a i don't know a sheik avara or a or a karl marx

or something like you're not gonna revolutionize the world single-handedly. That's the kind of thing that Brett or Eric Weinstein have wet dreams about, right? And that's not the reality, right? That doesn't happen. What happens is normal everyday people, if they work relatively hard or at least consistently for a long period of time, they can move the needle by a few percent.

And that's all anybody can reasonably hope to do yeah so the way you described it which is moving the needle just a little bit you know what i mean like some percentage of you know just curious or disenchanted people or whatever who come across gurus they also come across us and whatever and you divert a certain percentage of them to a certain degree some gurus are kind of aware that there are people like us paying attention and calling them out god i hate that phrase i know what you mean you know what i mean which which actually causes them to ratchet things down a little bit you could probably pick out a bunch of other beneficial impacts and that's

you know you don't it's only moving the needle but i mean i'm happy with that yeah that's good yeah because it like you know it goes in both ways that like i i think neither of us approach it from the point of view of feeling that we are particularly strong activist types uh but we do have a strong interest in the topic and opinions right like you know we're not neutral and that they've actually done that neutral and far right apologetics or or far left apologetics for that that manner and then and so our opinions are going to come come through but that's but but expounding but broadcasting or propagandizing those opinions is not why we're doing the podcast. No, it is because our personalities and interests are towards being analytical of the kind of content that we cover.

And that's why we're going to keep doing it. And the fact that people like it and listen and then we aren't. like it and listen and then we aren't because like if we if we were doing that and nobody was listening it it might actually still be doing it because i definitely still be listening to the people and you know writing things on twitter and that but it is it is helpful for motivation that people respond and and you know like it and um and we do get but i think we would still do it if we had like 24 the initial like our initial goal genuinely was that we were expecting a couple hundred of people

and we wanted to try and get 50 people for the Patreon so it wasn't embarrassing that's right we were really afraid about starting up the Patreon because we thought oh you know we're going to have like 13 people we'll donate out of sympathy exactly my mom she doesn't need to do it but so it's worth it so in that respect the podcast is

way more successful than it ever uh like we ever envisioned it to be and that's a very good thing but i i like to think that we have tried to keep the attitude that we're not viewing it as like that we're empire builders and we're, you know, like, because there's danger that way. And I'm not saying, therefore, don't take things seriously. You know, don't try to do things well. But I mean, like, there is a balance to be struck between the, like, starting to take yourself as a very serious figure that has it's almost in the attitude right you know like it's just that you I feel

the same way when it comes to academic stuff as well which is like i think you should have ambition and interest and and stuff but like but there's nothing wrong with contributing like a replication study which is well done and like shows well-earned effect is there as opposed to being the person who develops the theory or those kind of things and like i i feel like we are talking about like secular gurus and the you know the grommeter concept is capturing things that we've noticed but we're relying on a whole bunch of like concepts and literature that already exists and like it's very much not a like beast just on our like insights alone right it's because of the fact that you've yeah studied psychology i've studied anthropology and and you've read all these papers and yeah these are things that people have

identified yeah yeah and like the podcast the other podcast that i admire the most not just in terms of their content but but in terms of their attitude are the ones where it's an absolute labor of love yeah yeah and you know like i like you know god you always make fun of me when i pick podcasts that i've listened to are you gonna say about it's a history um i happen to be listening to the history of it in egypt podcast um uh this is an example right no but it's a young guy he's obsessed about the history of egypt he freaking loves it he loves the history of egypt and that's why he's making the podcast because

he just loves the history of egypt and knows everything about it and just records really nice episodes telling you about the history of egypt and other people like to hear him tell them about it and that is it right yeah it's on the girls he's not gonna change the world he's not you know I mean he's not some amazing sage or or something think of it whatever he's just a guy that likes the history I mean that's that little internet meme that always gets me with the puppet, right? You know, saying, we're just ordinary men. We're just like...

If you haven't seen that, you should look up that meme, that we're just ordinary men. That's what we're referring to. But nonetheless, I think that is funny for a whole bunch of other reasons but the basic like message of we're just ordinary men we're just ordinary people like just academics like that is I think a good attitude

to have and it is like in the year to come I have things that I want to do including like finally publish the paper right and on the other hand like we will do will cover people that we wanted to cover we'll have interviews with people as the patrons probably know we will have a start of the year with round two with Sam Harris right like so but these are like

they're all just for me within the just doing the normal podcast like the you know the things that I want to do but I'm not like viewing it of the okay man right by quarter two we gotta be up the metrics like 60 k of and when we get this guy he's gonna blow us zoom to the moon like it's not constant francis energy right we can't even we can't even withhold the the excitement of you know but if we had the glass moving like it would be good it was that way we do it but but imagine if we had someone horrible like constant getting back on it all over youtube yeah we doesn't know why we do it we just because we're servants of the discourse and we want ideas that's right yeah but we saw me as an amazing yeah yeah i mean that's that's the horrible thing that's that's the thing i never want

to happen but that's that's the new media isn't it i mean i guess i guess media has always been about people buying newspapers or tuning in and getting ratings or whatever so there's always been that populist factor right like what's going to appeal what's yeah what's going to get eyeballs what's going to get bums on seats and And the independent online media sphere is just that on steroids because they're directly plugged in. Like, the metrics are, like, in their veins. Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, you see it with so many just ambitious people, I guess.

And it's nothing wrong. It's not wrong to be ambitious. Because you can pursue a career. That could be your career, be ambitious career that could be your career right and that could be that the matrix going up is what you need yeah the progress to have a living doing this job right and that's like I get it it doesn't mean you're a bad person no but they're often they sometimes does but you know like we're not going to name any names but there are there are people that we're both acquainted with that we've had. People approach you and they want to come on.

Oh, right. Yeah, yeah. You understand the way they want to do it because... And I'll invite you on our podcast or whatever. And it's a normal thing because they're wanting to network and they view a shared interest. But we generally don't like that. And we appreciate that the reason we can say no is that we have other jobs. And this is a side hobby thing.

And, you know. Yeah, that's helpful. But even then, I think in general, I'm just very wary of that. And on a similar point is you've said in other occasions offline and whatnot that a good thing is not to try and optimize for getting the most positive feedback or the most controversial feedback or that kind of thing. Because that happens.

It just depends on the episode. You know, whether there'll be 10 comments or the 100 it's all it all depends right but and and there will some be always be some people that are very annoyed at what you're doing or think that you're missing the key points or like even if they like you or whatever but and all the people that hear you and think you're a terrible person and and that'll always happen especially as audiences get a little like bigger right but the the better metric, and I agree with it, and it doesn't apply with whether the person is an influential, well-known person or an unknown person, right?

Like just somebody randomly that sends an email or whatever. But it's people who you kind of respect. Yeah, whose opinion you respect. Whose opinion you respect, who seem reasonable. And if they're generally saying, you know, I like what you're doing, and then you're kind of like, well, that's who I'm like. And it could be like a dozen, a couple of dozen people, but, you know, it can change, right?

But if a significant proportion of them were to go, ah, gee, I mean, guys. Yeah, yeah, why are you doing that? You really disagree. It doesn't mean that you need to stop it, but it will give you more pause. Just stop and think. But this is not the same as Brett Weinstein saying,

when everyone says rock, I know I'm doing stuff right. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying, like, you shouldn't be led around by metrics, audience dynamics and metrics because therein lies, like, the black hole of whatever particular niche you're in. And we're in, like, a critical, you know, a space which is critical of a whole bunch of different people or whatever. Like, if we were doing the History of Egypt podcast, this wouldn't be an issue, right? Yeah, but no, I'm sure.

I'm sure that someone would be like, Ramsey's the first, you think? We just don't know the ins and outs of the Egyptology field. I'm sure there are people that are like, oh, you had that thick head on you. So it's probably just it always seems like they're not. But it's that thing that like that Egyptology guy, I don't know, like I haven't listened to his podcast,

but I imagine that kind of person, they're making a podcast about Egyptology because they like Egypt and they would care about feedback from people who express their respect and whatever. Oh yeah, if they got told that they were wrong about some factoid about Ramses III or whatever by a professor, they'd be like, oh God. But if hundreds of readers are saying, why are you fucking talking about Egypt?

They wouldn't care. That's the correct attitude. Why not the Assyrians? The Greeks. The Japanese history is interesting. I think we're meandering yeah that's right we are but this is

what people want and we'll keep it to the 30 minute thing so the thing to announce is the podcast

isn't ending yet we still have life left on our old bones for the minute and there's plenty of people

that we want to cover and generally one of the things minute. And there's plenty of people that we want to cover. And generally one of those things is like, sometimes there's stuff in the, you know, the culture or the current thing that we think it's good to cover, that we want to cover. And sometimes there's people that are just left field that like we're interested in. It's interesting.

And I think, you know, it may be the case. I generally don't know this, but like that those episodes, people don't pay as much attention or they're not as many downloads or whatever. But in that case, I feel it's a much healthier thing to be doing them and to be that being the thing which motivates you.

The ultimate parameter should just be what interests you and what you think is good. Yeah, because otherwise I'll stop doing it. Exactly. If I make it too annoying. If I get bored, it's all over. Oh, yeah. And if Matt goes, just to mention,

there's no way I'm monologuing. I hate monologuing. It might not seem it, but I really... You need somebody to look at while he's monologues like it might not seem it but I really you need somebody to look at while he's monologuing that's right I gotta judge like is someone paying attention

I can't feel it without their eyes so yeah so the podcast is going to be around we'll just get you a Mr. Potato Head too AI Matt

there's God knows there's enough material there's a funny thing where I wanted to add in a point in an episode recently that I forgot to say. And I recorded it and sent it to the editor. And he inserted it.

And then he moved some of the parts where you were agreeing to say like, yeah, that's a good point, Chris. So with the material you've already given us yeah well i can't this is good because anytime you've heard me agree to something it's probably a terrible um that chris might have said on the podcast it's probably it wasn't me look and and that wasn't unethical because i actually had already said that point to Matt and he had agreed with it.

Now, the other dude didn't know that. He intuited that you would agree. I wouldn't agree with that kind of thing. Yeah, you did. No, I think that's fair. Both of you, you're mental models of me. I mean, I'm not that complicated. It wasn't a very controversial point either.

So, yeah, that's it. Well, yeah controversial point, Ilar, so yeah. That's it. But well, yeah, look, I agree. I reckon next year, what is it, 2024? Yeah, we're in 2024 now. It's now, it's happening. Yeah, more of the same. More, well, that's what everyone wants to hear.

More of the same. It's just round and round it goes. Samsara. But I think a medley, a mix. A medley, yeah. It's good to have some absolute freaks, some absolutely terrible, awful people occasionally. Bit of spice. Yeah.

Some people that, you know, it's kind of good, kind of bad. Yep. You know. Some people that are just kind of interesting, like, I don't know, a bit of food for thought. Yeah. I don't know, like say Peter Singer,. Yeah, I'd say Peter Singer for instance Yeah, like, you know, I like the Daniel Dennett episode Daniel Dennett, you know They say stuff and we got to think about it. Right? Yeah, and it could you know, it helped the listeners think about it

Together basically Sean Carroll. Yeah, and then people that have kind of probably almost certainly bonafide pretty good like Sean Carroll Well, let's see. It's boring bit boring when they're good, right? Don't advertise the episode like that. It's a bit of a bad way to start the year, but that's how we're gonna do it. So that's it. But that's the thing, it's a medley. It's a medley.

Yeah, you've gotta think about it like a stir fry, that you've gotta put, you can't just have allspice. That's right. You can burn your face off. That's right, you need some chicken as well. Yeah, you drink a lot of whiskey, should have a glass of water, should have had a glass of water that night. You don't have a glass of off. That's right. Eat some chicken as well. Yeah. That's what you drink. A lot of whiskey. Should have a glass of water. Should have had a glass of water that night.

Should have. Should have. But yeah. So anyway, thank you all for being patrons or listeners or wherever this goes out. It was fancy. That's it. And, you know, if you're one of the listeners we respect, thank thank you for that and if we're one of the ones we don't well you know it's nice that you listen and you can give us your feedback and and

i'll i'll absorb it and respond aggressively online so so thank you for that because that fuels me as well so yeah he likes both kinds you like both kinds yeah and for the very special people that have been with us, following us since the start, three years or even two years, you're pretty special. One year, you're not that special, but thank you anyway. Jumping on the bandwagon. All your friends are doing it, you're doing it too.

Your kids, the kids won't stop them. That's just because of the crews. Yeah, but thank you. Thank you for listening to us for however many hours that you do a month. Yeah. And we'll make the accents 10% wackier this year just for you. Oh, what a yell we will. Oh, God.

I might put on a Scottish accent. I can't do it. I know. Okay. It's Irish. So it is. So it is. So it is.

It'll be a good year. So it will. So it will. Right you are. That's it. I'll push them back tonight. Okay. So it is. So it is. It'll be a good year, so it will. So it will. Right you are. That's it. I'll push that back tonight. Okay, we've got to stop. Thank you.