Decoding the Gurus - Jimmy Carr & Joe Rogan: The Jester & the Khan

Episode Date: August 17, 2026

Joe Rogan, the Great Khan of podcasting, is once again receiving a travelling jester at court. This time it is Jimmy Carr who arrives bearing gifts: pop evolutionary psychology, dubious history factoids, conservative "common sense", and an apparently bottomless appetite for telling Joe just how important he is.After listening to their three-hour conversation(!), we conclude there is nothing much of note beyond serving as a nice demonstration of popular "alternative" podcasting in 2026. What you get is a medley of sycophantic praise; regurgitated pop science and historical factoids; right-wing political positions presented as basic common sense; and shocked reactions to pseudo profundity and mundane observations.Along the way, you will also thrill as you learn Rogan and Carr's takes on motherhood, feminism, work ethic, astrology, religion, taxation, vaccines, human evolution, the Black Death, and stand-up comedy.As for Jimmy Carr himself, well, according to us: he's a very much your standard middle-aged conservative British person who happens to be a comedian. Rogan's level of crankery makes Jimmy look moderate by comparison, but as we know that's a very low bar.LinksJimmy Carr on The Joe Rogan Experience (2326)Jimmy Carr on Modern Wisdom #953Schulz, J. F., Bahrami-Rad, D., Beauchamp, J. P., & Henrich, J. (2019). The Church, intensive kinship, and global psychological variation. Science, 366(6466), eaau5141. https://doi.org/10.1126/science.aau5141Robinson D. The Black Death and Clerical Prospects in England. In: Bothwell J, Hamilton JS, eds. Fourteenth Century England XII. Fourteenth Century England. Boydell & Brewer; 2022:129-150. https://doi.org/10.1017/9781800105904.008Xu, X., & Barrett, P. M. (2025). The origin and early evolution of feathers: implications, uncertainties and future prospects. Biology Letters, 21(2), 20240517. https://doi.org/10.1098/rsbl.2024.0517

Hello and welcome to Decoding the Guru, the podcast where an apropologist and a psychologist listen to the greatest minds of the world has to offer, which is stretching it this week. But nevertheless, we try to understand what they're talking about. I'm Matt Brown, and with me is Chris Kavanaugh, the Odysseus to my Penelope. He's been out there traveling the wide Ionian seas, the Windark Seas, or traveling over the seas in an airplane, to visit the old country. It has come back to me, Slade the Souters, and everything's great again. Welcome, Chris.

Wow, very current, very, very hip and with it. Yeah, I got all those references. I'm a big, I'm a big Odyssey guy. I know the Odyssey. Everyone knows the Odyssey now. That's right. That's right. I've never read The Odyssey.

Well, look, you're not missing much. It's not that good. It's just basically repetition of, the wine dark sea like a thousand times and there's a cyclops things like that that sounds good and my movie i will be really nice that's my hot take this is an unpopular take but the odyssey isn't that good actually so yeah you send send your emails to decoding the gurus dot com that chris monitors religiously let him know what you think well you don't like that one with grendel either do you you know find a bear wolf yeah it's it's all right maybe

Maybe if I was a Viking, I'd appreciate it more. I think the CG version of that. You know, they made like this kind of weird, like half-live action, have CG melded. Thing about Bellwoof, I can't. Yeah, that's just a vague recollection of that as well. But that wasn't that good either. Okay.

You know what is good and what you also haven't read? James Joyce's Ulysses. That's all right. I don't know I haven't read that. How do I know? How do I know the things that I know? Because I know you. I know you, Chris.

I know you. I will neither confirm nor deny. I just want to note this land there. But yeah. Well, you know, we're here today not to talk about ancient literature. We're talking about something more contemporary, more current, right? It actually is a very current piece of pop culture, detritus that we're looking at.

The honesty, it is not. No, it's not. Yeah, we could agree there. You agree there. But it is perhaps representative of the current era. So we're back in the Rogan verse. We give people the option on the Patreon to vote for the next person. And they voted for Jimmy Carr,

the British comedian. Famous for his quick one-liners and acerbic wit. And I knew he appeared on Rogan. He appeared on Modern Wisdom, Dari of a CEO, Trigonometry, all the premier outlets, right? But I thought the Rogan one might be good

because I saw some clips for it and it was three hours long. So, you know, I thought there would be time for them to expound on things. but I didn't factor into entirely Matt that and have to listen to Joe Rogan for another three hours. Yeah. It's a harsh thing to have to do. Tell me about it, Chris.

Tell me about it. I know. And, you know, people have pointed out, some people have pointed out that whenever we do these interview type episodes, I mean, they're all interviews, right? But very often we try to select episodes where the interviewer, is trying to get the guest to give more of their takes and give them space to expand. Joe Rogan is not really like that. He's much more. We've talked about it based on a comedy meme that came up.

That it is like the great can having an audience with some traveling wizard or like would be a member of his court peddling their wares. and that is very much the dynamic. So it's like if Joe is in an indulgent mood, he will let his guest talk about something, you know, maybe if Jordan Peterson is on. But he can also just cut them off to talk about whatever has taken his interest at that moment. And in this episode,

it's a little bit in the middle of that. He does let Jimmy offer his thoughts, but the two of them I mean the dynamic is very much that Jimmy Carr is trying to ingratiate himself with Rogan and as a result of that he's willing to go with the flow

in terms of like here's a topic maybe we could discuss but when Joe sidetracks him he just happily goes along with a side trap which is quite bad when you're trying to clip things that dynamic I will say I can imagine I can imagine so yeah it's not so much a Jimmy

car solo type episode. By force measure, it is going to be Joe Rogan and Jimmy Carr, the great Khan and his traveling jester. We'll treat them as a duo. Yes, that's the thing I want to highlight. It is going to be as much a Joe Rogan episode as it is, a Jimmy Car one, and it's unavoidable. But, you know, it's been a while since we talked about Joe Rogan, so maybe he's gotten better. Yeah, people often do in their 50s. You know, we just stay. Yeah, I mean, you know, and he's worth, he's worth returning to, I guess, because, like it or not, he is, by some margin, the most popular podcast still in the world.

Makes about close to $100 million a year for creating such amazing content. So, I guess the onus is on us to hear what people are listening to these days. Well, I'm going to play a little clip, Matt, that might explain why. people would have voted for a comedian. And to be, this is not from the episode. This is a clip from Bantzatz, our favorite other podcast clip are current. So let's hear what Bansdads picked out

from a different interview that gives you a flavor of current day Jimmy Taur. And then I'm thinking about that even the language of it. It's not hiding. It's nets and webs. The internet. How so? It's the web, right?

It's the internet. What are nets and webs do? They catch people. That's what it's doing. I think Aldous Huxley was right about this. Our power will not be taken from us by some overlord. I think we'll give it away for cheap dopamine. And Aldous Huxley said it was Soma, which was the tabler, right?

And he was even right about that. It's just a different kind of tablet. My take on AI is like, I don't have religion. I don't think we were made in God's image. But I think we so wanted there to be a God. We created one in our image. It's all-knowing, all-powerful, can create miracles and lives in a cloud. Well, I didn't mind the eldest Huxley, Brave New World reference.

Probably another book you haven't read, Chris. That's my ex-loud again. I'll need it confirmed no idea. Yeah, I actually, I think Brave New World was pretty pressing. But yeah, everything else about that opinion. Yeah, that's Jimmy Carr, right? Like, there is nothing in the name, you know, that kind of. Seeing things in the similarities of words is something we've noticed before.

It's a silly kind of take. Like the cloud, the clouds are in the sky, gods are in the sky. So it's our new god in the sky. I mean, it's so labored and not a good take. So yeah, I mean, Chris, I mean, do what do you think? I mean, this is part of the course, right? Like there is a well-worn track for these, dare I say, mid-tier comedians like Jimmy Carr. The trigonometry are not mid-tier.

They're well below that. But Joe Rogan or whoever to sort of segue into more opinionating rather than joke-telling, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's very much the current meta, especially in Rogan First World, which is like mid-tier comedians pontificating on world events, right? And sometimes eight-tier comedians, but even in that case, comedians not necessarily, you know, know, good at telling jokes, Matt. That's a thing. That's something good at.

And that's the thing that they seem somewhat like least interested in during a podcast. It's kind of like, I've known for telling jokes, but I'm a man of many other important, you know, insights. Important sorts of ideas. And here they are. Yeah. And you've heard of, you know, Jimmy Carr's take about the AI God, right?

And I, before I forget, I will just play a clip from this episode we're listening to because he brings that up. So this is something that he's being talking about. And you'll hear a little bit about his epistemic network and where he is drawing these insights from. You want to hear my hot take on AI? I would love to. All right.

My hot take on AI is we were not made in God's image. But we so wanted there to be a God. We made one in our image. So if you think about the attributes of AI, It's all-knowing, all-powerful, can perform miracles. It lives in a cloud. Sorry, is that God or AI? Wow.

Yeah. Interesting. So at the moment, I think... It's an emerging god. Well, it's not even done growing yet. At the moment, it's the Oracle of Delphi. It's like a 10-year-old right now, though. It's not even an adult.

Yeah. And then, where's it going to? Yeah. So the idea of, like, the interesting thing about AI is it's the gap between me and And who's the smartest guy we know? Eric Weinstein. Used to be enormous. And the gap is getting smaller because AI can just, I can ask it.

Yeah. Yeah, bitch, I got all the answers right here. Yeah. I mean, it's weird what's going on. I had a gag about it about, you know, like a bit about in our universities. You know, the students are using AI to write their essays. And then the tutors are using AI to mark the essays. And then after three years, AI gets the job.

It actually seems very fair. Yeah, it's probably what's going to happen. What you're saying is very funny. It's like it is accurate, though. It does seem to resemble a god. Yeah, it looked to impact there, particularly that Erie Weinstein references the smartest guy they know. But we've heard a few other people talk about AI like a god, right?

Yeah. He was that cult leader, Teal Swan? Oh, Teal Swan, yeah. But also Ian McGilchrist, right? It wasn't AI the conduit for demons to get in and they were sending text messages or something. Just remember the... That's right. That's right.

Sorry, demons were sending text messages after they got exercised and that is what led him to consider that AI might be a conduit for malevolent intelligences. Now, there's a lot of metaphors you could use to try to wrap your head around what's going on with artificial intelligence. but I think when you reach for gods, angels or demons, then you're on the wrong track. There's nothing much to be gained there. Well, Matt, you know, you noted there's the shared reference to Eric Weinstein being the smartest person they know. Maybe they need to know more people. That could be one issue there.

But throughout this, there's just a constant shared canon of thinkers. And you might, I wonder if this pinged up when you were listening or if you were in a huge state by the time you experienced this. But one of our recent gurus was cited in some detail for his ideas. So listen to this. And it's such a huge mistake because the idea was to be in awe. It's something like going to church is like it should be like standing in nature. But I think the issue of something.

As soon as you translate it and you go left brain and try and make it make sense, it all falls to pieces. But it's not a left brain. Our whole culture is left brain. But it should be about right. brain. It should be about the the gestalt, the whole thing. The idea of like, there's a mystery

here. And what's that great line? God, God is the name we give to the blanket. We throw over the mystery to give it shape. Ooh, I like that. I think that's ACDC's Rode said that. Really? Yeah. That's amazing. But what a piece of wisdom.

That's a genius piece of wisdom. But it is that thing of like, you can call it whatever you want. You can attach it to whether it's horoscopes or whatever your religion is. But the idea of going, there is a mystery. And even when you get to, you know, physics at the, I mean, I love it when you have physicists on him. I mean, Eric Weinstein is one of my favorite people in the world. I just think he's a brilliant.

He's a great, great guy, too. Yeah, great guy. Yes, someone's been reading or listening to Ian Gilchrist, I think Chris. Yes, they have. And it just, it crops up, you know, I heard it with Dr. Kay. You remember he brought up about the hemispheres and, and you heard there, Matt, that somehow, Jimmy Carr has unfortunately made a mistake that there's like a binary, right? And the right is good, right? And we need.

Yeah, somehow he got the, yeah, Ian McGook has been super clear about that. Both sides of the brain are working together of naturally. But somehow people keep getting the impression the right side is actually the better one and what we need right now. Yeah. And I did like that these, he said, you know, I love it when you have physicists on. And, you know, they talk about the big ideas. and he's like, Eric Weinstein. Like, so, so okay, we've had Ian McGilchrist and Eric Weinstein cited.

Who else? I mean, with that kind of intellectual soil, what beautiful things will grow out of it? Well, well, there are a lot of philosophers that he has taken note of. So here's an allure example. If you can prioritize later, if you can sort of, Chris Williamson. Delay gratification. Well, Chris Williamson's got this great thing. We were chatting about it, me and George Mac and him.

It's amazing. He's great. He's the best. But that thing of like 24 hours ahead, like we've all got to serve someone, right, in life. You've got to serve. And serving yourself in 24 hours is pretty good because it's that thing of like, booze is the best example. Like drinking is you're borrowing happiness from tomorrow. Yes.

Right. So that in a very simple way, you know. Like the reason. Also, it's like predatory credit card rates. Like the kind of rates. that you get when you go to college and they give you a credit card and you're a moron and they get it's like 39% interest or something like that something crazy yeah yeah that's what it's like yeah yeah Chris Williamson yeah a lot of a lot of wisdom and modern wisdom

modern wisdom distilled into piffy freezers that's Chris Williamson's little little easily digestible bite-sized chunks uh you don't want to be borrowing from the future and we're all in service of someone and you've got to serve yourself that's important too and don't let us forget to return to Joe Rogan on horoscopes because I feel like oh don't worry yes there's a lot of wisdom there and there's also the so there's this segment I actually I'm going to play the two clips to get there so so here I'm I wanted to point out the kind of epistemic networks that were operating in here the shared network of like you're Eric Weinstein, you're Chris Williamson, you're Ian McGilchrist, right?

This is very familiar ground for us. And this happens all throughout the episode that, you know, probably 80 to 90% of the citations. They are two people in this arena. And sometimes they're interpreting older material or whatever, but it is often that this is what it's all operating through, this kind of trigonometry-esque podcast. universe. That's where lots of these ideas are coming from. There are some other sources as well,

but it's just notable how incestuous it is. And I couldn't give another example, but it connects in with a take that Rogan offers and that you mentioned to me before the podcast, right, as a particularly good take of Joe. So this is when they're talking about the power of testosterone, as they often are

and like women, men, differences between them, right? And you'll get to hear some insights from Joe. And then this will return us to the epistemic network. But so first, some insights on single mullerhood from Joe Rogan. Single moms also have higher testosterone. Do you know that? I never knew that. Yeah, women that are forced to, like, take care of themselves

and forced to, like, make all the money and run the household and take care of the children, their testosterone naturally rises. Also, women have more testosterone than they do estrogen. That's interesting, isn't it? Wild. Yeah, I never knew that until I forget who said it. I was like, that's kind of crazy.

But it's that thing of like, you know, for young women, if you're talking to young women, like, what would the advice be? And it's like, because young men take risks. Right. Right. But young women tend not to take the same risks, but maybe if you do more calculated risks kind of levels the playing field a little bit.

Playing field for what game? Well, I suppose career. What choices you make in life? I think I wonder how much crossover there is between women's decisions, career paths, and men's. Like how often are women actually competing with

obviously they do? But how often? You know what I mean? Like if there wasn't any societal pressure for a woman to be a career woman and a boss girl, you know, because there's a lot of that. There's like pressure to like show that you're as good as everyone else

who's also doing this and, you know, Sally is a CEO, you should be a CEO too, and there's a lot of pressure. But if you just let them decide their own path, how much crossover would there be with men and women? So, yeah, in terms of pure fact-checking, the testosterone thing is quite a bit wrong. Yeah, it's not the main chemical that drives risk-taking. So at first I was like not clear what Joe Rogan was getting out there, but then I kind of figured out he's wanting to make the point that it left to their own devices, women wouldn't really be wanting to compete in the domain of men, except, you know, that there's this cultural thing where

they feel there's pressure to be a boss girl or something. So it's an artificial thing. Lift to their own devices, they'd be quite happy being mothers and wives, right? Yes, so there is a, you know, like in all of this kind of content, there's always a fairly standard set of catechisms, right, which are that women are designed to be mullers and there should be like a greater emphasis on that and the pill is potentially bad for them and that religion is super important and has been overlooked as a source of societal cohesion. that the West is a unique place with a great philosophical tradition that is being undermined and it's tied to Christianity and so on. There's all these sets of beliefs and values. Is it fair to call that Paleocon? This is the Paleocon manifesto in a way, right?

Yeah, but it's refracted for Jordan Peterson. This is the, I think, the meta around here. So you will often hear this, right? And as I mentioned that, the second clip, related to this. So we'll see where Rogan was going with that thought bubble and where it pops, right? And I just listen to Jimmy Carr, the people that he cites as giving him insights into this topic. And I'll discuss them a little bit after. Well, I don't know. I mean, I read a lot of it's like Mary Harrington and Louise Perry, these kind of great feminist writers. And they often

sort of talk about this thing of like going, we talk about one. stage of feminism above and there's three there's like there's the there's the maiden which is you know the young woman out for a career who can do just as they can do anything a man can do right absolutely and then there's motherhood which a man cannot compete but feminism doesn't really talk about motherhood that that much it's like it's become almost like a right wing thing to like celebrate motherhood right and then there's the what they call the crone the older woman postmenopausal who's absolutely pivotal in our society.

If you think about anyone having a crisis, just a woman comes from nowhere in a 50s or 60s and makes your cup of tea and takes care of you. It's like it's an incredibly, that grandmother figure is so important in our culture, in our society. And it's not celebrated enough, I don't think. No.

Well, I had a bit at one of my specials back in the day about my mom. My mom actually did say this. She voted for Hillary Clinton because she said, you know, I just want a woman to be president. And I said, you already make all the people. Like, you make all the people. There's eight billion people, all of them made by woman.

I go, you want to be president too? You fucking greedy bitch. I'm like, what else you want? All the money? You want a bigger dick? Like, what do you want? You want everything? We don't celebrate the craziest thing, which is women make human life.

Without them, it is not possible for any of us to be here. and that is almost like inconsequential. It's like you're not even... We don't even talk about it. And the sacrifice made. I know. Thank you for your service. We really should say that to every mom.

Thank you for your service. You're making humans. Especially if you're doing a great job. Yeah. If you're a solid mom, that's amazing. It's an amazing thing. If you're a solid mom, think about it. The best dad in the world is what?

It's a mediocre mom. Yeah. Like if I take my kids to the playground, it's like, oh, fantastic. If mom does it, it's kind of expected. it's already factored in. So Jimmy Carr there is kind of playing defense a little bit, smoothing off the rough edges. What is a pretty repellent kind of opinion there from Rogan, right?

In a nutshell, he's saying women get to have babies. So that is absolutely enough. What the hell? What you want to become prime minister or president one day or you have ambitions to do other things like success? Having babies should be enough. That's why I call it. Like, this is like hardcore neocon, not neocon, paleocon type thinking.

But yeah, I guess Jimmy Carr here is just, you know, he's, he doesn't, he wouldn't push back on it. He just kind of attempts to smooth it over a bit and maybe put a slightly better face on it. Yeah, so I got some whiplash between the attempts to say, oh, we're celebrating Mullahhood, which doesn't get enough credit to Rogan calling his mom a greedy bitch because she wants her to be like a female president in her life. Like it's, it's, I mean, Rogan is extremely reactionary, but it's that notion, you know, oh, women produced life. That's amazing, right? So yeah, I agree. That's a, that's a nice set of it. You know, let's acknowledge the biological wonder of reproduction, right? And the obvious role that we were playing it. But then to, so why do you want the light, like,

have a political leader. Yeah. That's the like, what the fuck? Like, I mean, it doesn't follow, right? And it's also, instead of saying, you know, actually those things are, you know, it's transient and it doesn't matter. He frems it

as you greedy bitch. Like, do you also want all the money? And shit, you're like, I mean, it sounds like your mom was just wanting her to be a female president in her lifetime. She'd like to see that. And, Yeah, Rogan gets outraged at that because women can give birth.

So, like, why do they need anything else? Like, that's incredibly reactionary. But as you said, Jimmy Carr is doing his best to frame it as a deal of empowerment and recognition. They won't let you talk about that women are impressive for being mullows, right? And, and Matt, the thing that I wanted to know was that he talks about the great feminist writers that he's often. referencing Mary Harrington and Louise Perry, both of whom are noted as reactionary feminists, right? So Louise Perry has a book,

The Case Against the Sexual Revolution, arguing against the contraceptive pill and the damage it's done to women. Mary Hanaritan has a book, Feminism Against Progress, arguing that the Women's Liberation Movement was a product of the industrial revolution rather than moral progress and that modern technology

now harms most women while benefiting this small league. So like Jimmy Carr is saying, I read a lot from these feminist writers. Like that's a particular. It's not a representative pair of feminist writers, perhaps. Yeah? No, it's like within, you know, the broad umbrella of feminism, women talking about feminist issues, but they're within a subset that think that technology. that gave women control over reproduction is a negative for them.

And yeah, so I just want to note that as well, because that is a thing that trigonometry or other such outlets will do where they'll say, you know, we have lots of feminists, people on them. And they basically have on, you know, Louise Berry and Mary Harrington and have a very enjoyable conversation with them. And then they will get on some ultra-rope, hardcore feminist and get into, you know, an argument with them, right? And that's the only two strands of feminism that you'll see on these kind of shows. But there's, you know, it will not be a surprise to learn that that doesn't

exhaust the range of opinions available, but it does in this corner of the internet. So, yeah, Rogan, as you will find out, if you listen to his content, he, he is extremely reactionary across a whole broad range of topics. But that one even took me by surprise in this episode. And so there you go. Yeah. Now, you mentioned the astrology thing right now. Actually, Matt, this connects

in with a clip that we wanted to talk about regarding work ethic because you may not have remembered, but the two topics are interlinked when introduced. So I'll start off there. This is Jimmy Carr floating the idea that

work ethic is largely inherited. And this is going to be in line with a lot of popular thinking in that ego system around, you know, the amount to which things are determined genetically, right? This is a kind of popular topic in that sphere of the internet. But Joe doesn't actually like this invoking of that topic. And you will see his reaction to that here. But then you don't see the kind of the layer below that of going, well, I was born with. I think beauty is a really interesting thing, right?

So you see someone in there born beautiful. Margot Robbie and you might go, she's Barbie, she's gorgeous, it's easy for her. But when you look at Oppenheimer, you don't see, well, that guy was born with an IQ of 160 and a work ethic. Now, work ethic is heritable, largely heritable, like 70% heritable. Really? Yeah.

And you don't see. You don't just develop that? No, I don't think so. I think like it's, well, I mean, you develop some of it. And, you know, what you inherit, what you get in your, you know, your factory settings when you come out, that's what it is. You can only work with the other stuff. So that's the interesting stuff. But factory settings you think involve work ethic?

Yeah, I think so. I don't think so. He's on it. I don't think my own life is a different example. You think your work ethic is? I think it's just I developed it, recognizing that it's valuable. And I think a lot of it I got from Marshall. arts. Something like my parents didn't have a work ethic. It's just, especially the physical stuff.

It was never, no one in my house did anything physical. They didn't do any sports. Definitely didn't do any martial arts. It wasn't, it wasn't inherited at all. Yeah. So Jimmy Carr might have thought that Joe Rogan would enjoy a bit of biological essentialism, but not that particular kind, because Joe Rogan has got a strong feelings about his own personal work ethic. You know, fact-checking here again. Actually, Jimmy Carr is wrong. And you can't, you can't. I mean, I'm not against heritability or, you know,

there being behavioral genetic connections. But, you know, a crisp 70% kind of figure like that is not possibly correct. So Joe Rogan is right. You frank checked it, Mark, did you? You frank checked it? A little bit of fact checking there, but I mean, I knew it was wrong. That's why I fact checked it. Yeah.

So the bit that they're connecting this into is that there is an objection to recognizing genetic characterability of traits or personality traits or character traits in liberal spaces because of one being to relate things to circumstances and societal factors and economic factors and so on. And on the right wing, they want to emphasize that less, right? It's more about grit and determination. So there is the kernel of truth that that tends to be something which, you know, lefty types don't like to acknowledge.

But Jimmy Carr is failing to note the opposite factor, which is that it's often overstated and the figure of like attributing, you know, 70% likely from something he heard on the podcast, you know, from somebody who will be over-extrapolating from some specific study, or just making it up as we find every time that we fact-check figures in podcast. So, yeah. Yeah. You know, the short answer is that every complex behavioral trait, you know, if you do like a polygenetic type analysis with a big data set,

you'll find some kind of heritable influence. but first of all you can't put a percentage on it neatly because it depends on the sample, the population and the environment in which you're sampling. And two, it always arises from an interaction, right, of, you know, heritable factors and environmental factors. But when they do do those studies, they do typically find some behavioral genetic effect every time. But, you know, for something as diffuse and as complex as grit and determination and

whatever, it's whatever, I don't know, 10 to 30%, something like that, you know, if you had to put some sort of figure on it. 70% is kind of crazy. Well, so as we noted, Joe didn't like that because Joe worked hard and Joe learned value from martial art and his family no-do martial art, which actually wouldn't contradict Jimmy Carr's annoying thing. Joe Rogan's lived experience there. Yeah, could be true.

and Jimmy Carr could still be correct with the 70%. Yeah, so the annoying thing is like just everybody's bad here. But just to highlight why that logically wouldn't work. So Jimmy Carr is saying you inherit work ethic. And Joe was saying, well, I applied my work ethic in martial arts, which all the people in my family didn't. But Jimmy Carr didn't say that it has to be in the same arena or whatever. Anyway, the bit that is a better thing is, well,

I learned some of the work ethic from the experience. of doing martial arts, right? So that's a better counter argument. But in any case, Joe earlier, there was a conversation they had about Nancy Regan and her interest in astrology. And it wasn't related to the topic of astrology initially. They were actually talking about how she raised that or she like got involved in the war in drugs as a way to distract from that issue being like a bad publicity thing, right? But Joe actually likes the topic of astrology. So he doesn't like the topic of work ethic

not being due to individual effort, right? And he, as it turns out, does like astrology. So you'll hear him pivot away from this to get to astrology. And there he has some takes. You pushing yourself? Well, I learned from a young age that if you work harder than everybody else, you get better. It was just like simple math.

And then it was also like dealing with this truck rather than your willpower is a funny word because it's it's really just knowing that there's a value in continuing to do things you don't want to do and that there's a process. And it's hard to see the process when you're in the middle of it because it sucks and you're tired and you don't want to keep doing this. It's hard to do. But if you recognize, oh, the more I do that, the better I get. If you're an intelligent person, if you're an objective person and analyzes all the factors they're at play, you go, okay, what is the major factor here in terms of like getting better at a thing? Well, the major factor is work.

Like, the more work you do and the harder you work and the more intelligent you work, like, the more intensity and the more enthusiasm you have, you just get way better than everybody else. Well, I've always thought that that's a really interesting thing of how hard you work is important, but what you work on is the most important. You know, it's that thing about we're talking about horoscopes, something. It's amazing how much knowledge and information and experts someone can be in total horseship. Total horseshit. But I think this is where we get back to the Danny Jones podcast. I think there might be something to the original astrology. I think think the people that were like really studying constellations and when people were born,

I have a feeling that that is some like really ancient civilization knowledge that we just have like echoes of today. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, the kind of horoscopes are in the newspaper, it's obviously bullshit, right? But the old stuff, the OG stuff, right? You get back to the original stuff. Yeah, yeah, there's something in that. I mean, there's got to do, right?

Think about it. Yeah, think about it. And so he goes on, Matt. Maybe it's worth noting that this is another thing where Jimmy Carr attempts to, like, soften what Joe has just said. And it doesn't succeed. But let's hear a little bit more about the potential powers of astrology. When it got kind of famous in our culture was I think it was a thing,

birth of a royal baby in about 1910, something like that. And the London Evening Standard had, they'd ran out of things to say about a royal baby. That's cute. It's got, you know, it's got little baby fingers and baby toes. And they did that. They got, someone came in and went, oh, you know it was born here. And it's, it's the year of the rat. And it's a Virgo.

And it's, and that means with Sagittarius Rising. And they wrote the thing. And then they realized everyone is kind of self-obsessed and wants to read about themselves. So that's the one bit of the newspaper that's about you. Right. So naturally, people are drawn to that. And it's like cold reading. It's like the way that they word these things, you go, well, that could apply to anyone.

Right. But it does give you a nice chance to focus on you. What about what's going to happen with me? Yes, but what about me? The news. Who cares about Beirut? What about me? Yeah, I think that's the, in the human condition, that's going to be a big part of it.

Of course. Of course. And that's how you sell newspapers. I think the newspaper version of the horoscope is obviously nonsense, at least partially. I shouldn't even say obviously. But I think I have not studied this and I'm not committed to this. But I do think the origins, the original origins of astrology were probably based on some sort of an ancient understanding of the different effects. that different stars when they're in alignment have on the universe. And I think it's partially, look, we know that the moon literally makes the tide go in and out. The gravity of the moon affects the water.

It makes the tide go in and out to the point where there's a high tide and a low tide mark at the beach. This is why I'm rehydrating now, because I realize I'm mainly water. mainly water. So if we're mainly water, like, how is that not affecting us? Is it? Is it affecting us in some weird way that we don't totally understand? There you go. There you go. So, you know, if you're listening to Joe Rogan before on women and feminism and issues like that and you get a bit upset, you have to remember that he's just an idiot. First and foremost. I like that he manages, you know, to this barrage all yeah you know like the the kind of you know the silly newspaper the mainstream horoscope shit like yeah like jimmy car is saying you know oh but you know it's it's all

bullshit and it's barnum statements and it's like it's like this self-obsessed culture and whatever and just like yeah yeah it's so ridiculous you know giving people a chance and and then yeah yeah but but but but but think about it the stars and the tides there's got to be having some kind of a on us, right? Yeah, the old stuff, the old horoscope stuff, that stuff was legit, right? And, you know, we're mostly made of water, right? And the moon is involved with the tides, right? So, like, there's got to be something to it. To be clear, these wonderful ideas are not ones that Joe has come up with himself. These are the, you must have heard these before. These are the standard. I've heard these. Yes, yes. So these are the standard things that people,

argue about to justify astrology being real. Yeah. I think, I think no comment, no further comment required for me on that. Do we need to debunk that, Chris? Is that, is that worth our time to do? No. Well, Jimmy, Jimmy Carr, as it happens, Matt, does push back a little bit. I mean, he softly tries to make jokes by saying, oh, I'm going to rehydrate because of mostly water and whatnot. But, well, just listen, it continues. But the idea that a constellation a hundred million light years away could be affecting it, seems a bit of a scratch. I don't think that's what the idea is. The idea is that there is an infinite number of possibilities in terms of personalities and character traits.

And there's an infinite number of factors. There's genetic factors. There's environmental factors. There's all these different factors. There might be cosmic factors. I don't think it's the primary source of your personality or how you feel about the world. But I think it might be a factor. And I think it was probably much more of a factor when they didn't have light pollution.

I wonder, is it one of these things where it's a really interesting way to think about yourself and analyze yourself? It's almost like, I don't have religion, but I can see the benefits of it. I don't think religion works because, like, mass doesn't work because God is happy. But mass works because people come together as a group. And they kind of meditate and take an hour off. And I sort of think the great mistake, the tradition I'm from is Catholicism. Me too. And the great mistake was, I think, a Vatican II, they called it.

So Vatican II is where they translated the Latin into whatever your local language was and made it more accessible. That was like the 1500s, right? Yeah. Yeah. So let's put aside just how funny it is that Joe thinks that these kind of cosmic factors would be having more of an influence before there was light pollution. Yeah. I think the remarkable bit about this is just to see how hard Jimmy Car works to avoid having to disagree with Joe. Yeah.

Like you're right. This is the bravest you'll ever see. Oh, you know, I struggle to. I feel like it's a bit of a stretch, but. And then, but you move away from, you don't want to get into, you know, telling Joe Rogan he's wrong. Everyone knows that is not a good thing to do. find a way to agree with them. You know, on a metaphysical level, you know,

things don't have to be literally true when they can be actually very helpful. That's not like we can all agree on, right? Yeah. And also, I mean, it comes in at the end there, Matt, and it would get tiring to fact-check everything. But again, I should note that there are a couple of exceptions. It would actually be much shorter to note all of the times

that they accurately preference something versus, where they mix in, you know, bullshit with mistakes and so on. So like there, Jimmy Carr talked about the mass switching to the vernacular. And he referenced Vatican 2, which was from the 60s and is talking about Catholic services, right? Then Joe Rogan says, yeah, yeah, Vatican 2 in the 1500s, which is not when Vatican 2 took part. So he's talking instead about, you know, the Protestant. Reformation and stuff there. And they do later in actually correct that point.

But you heard how it ties into the, you know, the Jordan Peterson religion thing that like, oh, yeah, you know, church is very important. We need to all get together. It's about bonding people. And like, like these are the kind of dogmas in this space that, you know, you cannot contradict. Well, this is, yeah, like, you know, what you said before, God being the blanket you throw over the shape of the blanket, you throw over the mystery, right?

Like that's some right brain thinking there. So this is why they love the Ian McGilchrist way of looking at things. And Jordan Peterson, as he said, is the same. It shouldn't be about whether anything is literally true or not. That's not what it's about. It's about that, it's about the mystery, it's about the vibe, it's about the cultural kind of importance and letting us know who we are. are and and it just yeah it spirals off into that kind of new age woo really quickly but for them it's really an important part of their metaphysical sort of landscape right right and don't forget

the broken has now become Christian or like attending church and raising questions about evolution and so on so like you know there there is that factor in this too and there's actually a bit in this i'm just going to play this mark because see if you get the takeaway that I did from it. So see if you can follow what Joe was suggesting here. He's talking about Christopher Hitchens, okay? You know Christopher Hitchens, the great Christopher Hitchens, right? Christopher Hitchens, literally, you ever heard the phrase the devil's advocate?

Of course. He had that job. So when Mother Teresa was made a saint by the Catholic Church, they bring someone in when they're making someone a saint in the Catholic Church, in the Vatican, to be the voice of the opposition. and he got the job. He played to the devil's advocate for real on Mother Tracy. He wrote a book about it.

I've always wondered about him. Loved the guy. Pissed off a lot of people. Got cancer. I hate to be the conspiracy theorist. And at the time... You hate to be the conspiracy theorist. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I don't know if you're familiar with your brand, but you are the conspiracy theorist. At the time, I was like, I wish you didn't smoke and wish she didn't drink. Now I'm like, God, I know a lot of people. people smoke and drinking, they live forever. What the fuck's going on? Why did Christopher Hitchin die so young?

But then again, why did Hicks die so young? Hicks died at like a pancreatic cancer at like 33 or something. Yeah, I don't think we can relate his death to piss and people love. Of course not. Of course not, but it's fun to do. It's quite the writer. So did you follow what Rogan was just, you know, he's just thinking about different things. It's flirting ideas.

It seemed like he was flirting in the idea that they were struck down by Yes. A vengeful. Yeah. God maybe had a hand in it. Yeah, because Hitchens pissed people off, you know, being mean about my life. But then, you know, you have to think about Hicks because he also, like, you see how Joe Rogan's brain works there as well where he's like, you know, I was thinking about that.

And like, it's weird that he, yeah, he smoked and drank. But then I know other people who smoke and drink and they didn't die. So like, what? Why did he die? And he's like, but we, I know another guy who died. And you're like, you're fucking idiot. It's a guy who thinks in anecdotes, right? And if you have an anecdote that supports the thing.

And then, but another anecdote comes along and it doesn't support the thing. You're so weird. Maybe it doesn't. And Jimmy Carter, though, saying, but we, I mean, we're not saying that he was. We're not saying that, right? You know, and I'm like, and Joe's like, no, no, of course. You know, it's just fun. think and you're like it sounds like you were say that you know but yeah and oh to put a bow on this

mat with the work ethic and and pandering thing so this clip comes later in it but this this combines both of them like the thing about the work ethic and and jimmy car wanting to ingratiate himself to rogans you and i disagree about work ethic but that the idea that we're all born with different attributes right so there's never going to be equality but the opportunity to educate yourself and to do better is like that that's sort of part of the American dream isn't it? I don't even think we disagree about work ethic. I think it can be acquired as well. I'm sure it's probably heritable in some way. It's probably very cultural too. But I think you learn it too. I think you've learned it. I think that thing of I think what you've done in martial arts,

how you do anything is how you do everything. Yeah. I look at what you've done with the mothership. I look at your comedy career. I look at how you treat your body. Everything's the same. It's the same. You've got a work ethic that's very consistent across different fields. How you do the podcast. If you've missed a week ever? Like, you're just very consistent with stuff. Well, that's the key to getting better things in life. It's just, it's not always fun. And this is what people have to understand. You're not always going to enjoy what you do if you have a process. I'm doing my best here, Joe. Sorry. You're doing great. The process at the end of it, though, is what you're looking. for. You're looking for results. And if you want to, the people that can get results are the ones that can go through the most difficulty. Yeah. It's never a bad idea to butter up, Joe. But also it made me think, it reminded me of the all-in podcast. And, you know, where what you have is these, like, very rich, successful in a worldly sense, guys who have an incredible opinion of themselves. And they love a worldview in which is self,

validating, I guess. I guess we all do, right? We all like a self-validating well-due one that puts ourselves as, you know, the righteous one. But it's just really clear sometimes, like with that. Yeah. And like there seems to be though an insatiable appetite in these podcasts for people telling you that the thing that you already believe is correct. And just there, you know, Rogan, you do everything. You put so much effort into everything. And that's why you're so great at everything. And he's like, yeah.

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. And there's a lot of this throughout, right? There's, there is the sycophancy of just telling Joe, how incredible he is, right? Here's an example, Matt. So, again, you get the reactionary stuff. the problem of kindness, right? People are too empathetic and this is, you know, the kind of liberals, they mean well, but they're destroying society. And then you'll get a pivot at the end to the kind

of pandering that we're talk about. Here's the problem with kindness. There's a lot of kindness in the moment. Like, I've got kids, you've got kids, right? Your kids want, what do they want to do? They want to eat McDonald's and they want to watch TV. But, and you want to be kind in the moment, but you're going to have fat, stupid kids. Of course. So you go, well, let's have some healthy food and let's read some books and let's run around outside. And maybe they don't want to do that now. But you've got to be kind to their potential. Yes.

Not just to that. And then you kind of obviously, you know, it kind of teaches you that. And then you kind of have to apply it to yourself. Because you go, well, they're not going to pay attention to what I say. They're just going to watch what I do. Sure. But then, you know, individuals that are struggling, you know, the problem is if you don't know them, You don't know.

Like what, what are they going through? Is this nonsense or is this like really serious? Like if they had a really fucked up life or are they just really self-indulgent and lazy? Like, what are we dealing with here? Like, what are we dealing with like tremendous depression because of like physical and sexual abuse and beatings and violence in the house? Are we dealing with that or are we dealing with some kid who their parents doted on them too much? and maybe the parents were super negative, which is very,

that is very contagious. Like if you have like very negative family members and then everybody in the family is always complaining, it's always something's wrong and someone did something to them. And so there's no joy. I don't think you realize, maybe you do.

I don't think you realize how much you help people. Like having these conversations on here. Yeah, got to get that in there. Got to get that in there. So, but this, this trope, of, you know, too much empathy, too much kindness, there's this liberal weakness. I mean, like, you know, no one's going to disagree that just because kids want to eat junk, if they want to eat junk food all the time, then kindness means letting them do that all the time.

I mean, but where this comes from in the popular discourse of the moment, it seems to be, all over my feet anyway, is this real kind of anti-any empathy, anti-any kindness, actually celebrating, like hurting people? You see. coming from the Trump administration, like really relishing it. And so that's where that's coming from. So yeah, I mean, sort of supporting that kind of point of view by such a, you know, like an easy shot, like saying, oh, that's, you know, being kind is just means letting kids eat jump fruit all the time.

That's, yeah. I know, like maybe they should relate it to something like USAID and Madeline Musk did there, right? That might be a one to tackle, yeah. Yeah, but you know, if they did, they would just be, Rogan would just be citing, you know, Fox News stuff about, oh, they were just using it for Trans-Storia in Uganda or whatever, right? Like, that's the level it would operate on. But it did make me think, Matt,

have you ever seen, there's a Futurama episode, and they're doing like a parody of MASH, and there's like a doctor robot with a switch on the back of it, which is like, you know, like, you know, broad comedy, slapstick comedy to model in, right? Like, they flip the switch out. War is horror, right? And Jimmy Carr and Rogan, they switch from the reactionary political stuff dressed up as just normal conversational pattern. Then hard pivot to sincere praise for the importance of Joe Rogan's podcast. You know, like, I don't know if you know, Joe, what you do here is like so important. And that could be Eric Weinstein. That could be Jordan Peterson.

That could be Constantine Kiss. And they all do it. You know, like they all have that. It's like the switch gets flipped and they're like, oh, maybe it's time to, you know, give a positive stroke here. Yeah. Yeah. Strict the ego a little bit. Yeah. So you've got those several modes, haven't you? You've got this sort of schmaltzy like, isn't motherhood wonderful? Haven't you ever thought about the miracle of birth. Isn't that just a wonderful thing, Chris? And, you know, it's really important that, you know, kids need to eat healthy, you know? You've got to be a good parent.

You've got to make sure your kids get. We can all come together on this, right? And also those fucking insane liberals, right? They are just wanting to fucking kill us all. And did you know, did you know that kind of thing? And then, as you said, the other mode is just stroking Joe Rogan's massive fucking ego. I think it's about three or four modes we could enumerate them I think oh yeah and actually I should have mentioned that like the other thing and people have pointed out that Joe often misses when

people are making jokes right like he's a comedian who's not very good at catching comic one-liners or whatever so like earlier you remember Jimmy Carr gave that quote and then he made the joke of saying I believe that was the roadie for ACDC right and then Joe was like oh was it like but that's still, Fern, you're like, no, Joe,

that's the, that's the joke, right? Like it's, he didn't pick up in it. So in any case, Joe's about to provide a, as it turns out when they later find a quote,

an inaccurate one, but a, a quote, and Jimmy Carr is going to react to it this time. So here we go. Well, I wonder, do you know who Marshall McLuhan is?

Of course. The Canadian. One of the great, great lines of all time. Human beings are the sex organs of the machine world. Yeah. Oh, I get like tingles. Yeah, that one gives, and I think that I gave a shortened version of it.

I think it's even longer. But it's fascinating because it's so never more true than today. Never more true. Like if we are really giving birth to AI, this is. Well, I wonder what will change. Right. Big insights. Big thoughts.

Yeah. And I didn't get that quote. like, is it me? Did I miss it? Did I do a Joe Rogan? Because human beings are the sex organs of the machine world. I mean, like, I guess I can kind of get it, but it doesn't seem like a great quote to me. We're just here, Matt, to, like, the machines can't reproduce without the biological.

I get it. I did get it. Yeah. Okay. Are you sure? All right. Well, they do provide the food. actual quote.

Maybe that would help. Would that help you? So here's the actual quote. Maybe this will help you out. Man becomes, as it were, the sex organs in the machine world, as the bee of the plant world enable it to fecundicate and evolve ever new forms. Oh, fecundate, rather. Machine world reciprocates man's love by expediting his wishes and desires,

namely in providing him with wealth. It's not as eloquent as the sex organs in the machine world. I think you nailed it, didn't you? I think my version of it's all better. Yeah, I don't care much for you through them. I get the concept, but. I can go on. I can't go on.

But, well, you're obviously not like Jimmy Carr. Jimmy Carr got tingly. Oh, yeah, tingles. Ooh, tingles. Well, big thoughts. Big thoughts there. So, so, you know, we've highlighted this dynamic before whenever you have the interactions in the gurus sphere that a lot is in you say something and the person

does a pregnant pause and says holy God right that yeah that makes me think a lot of us right yeah i don't i don't i don't i don't i don't want to exaggerate but that was the most amazing thing that i ever heard in my entire life yeah so there's there's quite a lot of that but so you've got to pandering where you know you're just either saying joe you you're you to help people, you're amazing. You're such a hard worker. You're so successful because you work so hard. And then you have the ones reacting to what Joe spews by saying, well, that is very insightful, actually.

The other form of pandering, which comes up a lot in this is bringing up topics that you think Rogan will like. You could look at the state of the world and go, it's terrible. But I look at like, I look at America, I look at the UK, and I look at the foot, footfall. So where do people want to come? Well, they want to come and they want to live here, right? And what's the most important piece of technology in America? I would argue the Constitution. The Constitution, you sort of don't think of it as a piece of technology, but it really is. And it's allowed all of this. It's an operating system. It's a brilliant operating system. And you can prove that culture is downstream of institutions. And freedom. Right. Or show that you

take his approach to things seriously. And I have hundreds of examples of that. But here's one to start us off with. And then I'll give you several war. OK, so the assassination of JFK, people are absolutely fascinated, right? Sure. And what's been released and what's, no one seems to care about the guy that shot Trump. I think they do too.

But there was very little information that's available. And we're hoping they'll be. be more information now that Cash Patel and Dan Bongino are in the FBI. But I'm not, I saw them recently talk about Epstein and they're saying that Epstein was, he definitely committed suicide. I'm like, definitely. I don't. Because especially like, Bongino. But you know, it's the terrible kind of the lag from COVID. The, you know, the long COVID from a psychological perspective is trust. We've lost a lot of trust because anyone that said it was a lab leak at the time was a maniac. And then, you know, so you go when they tell us, oh, no, no, he commits suicide.

You go, well, it's hard to believe now. Don't get me started. Don't get me started on this. But you've got there. They went R of K assassination, right? Then they moved from that to Trump assassination, Epstein stuff, and just for a good measure Jimmy threw in like Lablich and COVID stuff right at the end there. So there is a couple of times

in this interview where there's like a lull in the conversation and then Jimmy Carr is just like DMT or simulation theory. Yeah. Do you want to get my kids on that? Yeah.

I got crazy drug views. Do you want to hear my drug views? I would love to hear you. Okay. What do you think about simulation theory? I think it's more likely every day. The more time goes on, the more I think it's likely. I really like it. That's right.

Yeah, yeah. So he brings the shiny offering to the, he knows the great con, likes those particular bubbles. JFK assassinations, Epstein. Yeah. Yeah. And I should have mentioned at the start, but the podcast opens Matt with this.

I'm rehydrating having... Well, I think I got it from this show. The sauna cold plunge thing? I bet you did. I'm so into it. That's awesome. So addicted to it. It changes your life.

It really does. It's like, it's that dopamine for like... I did the... I'm now staying in... Not exclusively, but like I'm... My hotel choice, I'm solving for places with sauna cold plunge. So I can kind of do that in the morning and feel alive. There's a lot more of those now.

Well, it's... It's great. But you travel the world. I travel everywhere. Yeah. So I was in, like, Vienna. They've got this incredible facility. And I went, and it's like, you know, it's an amazing sauna, amazing cold plunge.

So I get in there. I'm having a great time. Guy walks in, and I get told off for wearing shorts. Because I've got swim shorts on, and it's Austria, and they like to sauna naked. They want to look at your cock. They want to check it out. Okay. And now I've got no problem with that in the sauna.

I've got zero problem in the sauna. I tell you where the problem. problem comes. What? Post cold plunge. Yeah. That is some baby dick. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Come in a setting, but the, the whole cold plunge, right? Like, Jimmy Carr, did I get it from this show? I'm not sure. But like, I'm all into cold plunges now. I just seek it out. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, well, they'll get into this, won't they? Joe Regan's experiences. Sonner experiences. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yes, I can't take you there. I'll play those clips. But I'll just finish on the cold plunge thing, because it came up again later. So that was it at the start. Maybe it was Jerry, if you want to be kind, you can say, well, he wanted to set up this joke line, right? About like the shrinkage and BB Dick, right?

But I think it was more about like saying, you know, Joe, cold plunges. I'm doing those now because, as I said, it comes up again later. Okay, so back to your work ethic. So the idea that you don't do that. You spend time doing difficult things. Yeah. Like I got the cold plunge thing from listening to you.

I was kind of interested in it and kind of chat as friends. I tried it and loved it. But you're putting yourself in a very uncomfortable situation in order for benefits later. Yes. It's a kind of a sacrifice you make in the moment for something later. Yeah. What draws us to that? What makes us do that?

The process. So knowing that other people are completing this process and having positive results and then sort of investing a little bit of time into it, either out of boredom or curiosity or whatever. Cold plunges, hey Chris? I also have the tremendous moral character that's required to have a cold bath. I used to really enjoy that in Japan with the nonsense. You could have the really cold bath, really freezing one, and then go into a really hot sauna and then maybe repeat the whole process. it's actually not that hard. I don't actually. It sounds like I brag about, but,

but, uh, well, that's just because you value challenge, Matt. You, you know, you set yourself these obstacles to overcome and they, you understand that they develop character,

right? You're seeking, there's not enough challenge in your life. You want more, right? That's right. Nothing will satisfy me, but excellence.

That's why I did those cold plungers. Chris. Yeah, I did notice as well that this clip started with, yeah, your work ethic. Yeah, let's get back to that. We haven't, I haven't glazed you enough, Rogan. Let's, let's do it a bit more. He's like, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, okay. Yeah.

Now, Matt, one thing that you mentioned before I played those clips was the, the reference Rogan made where he kind of was like, uh-huh, they wanted to see your dick, right, in the sauna. And there was an interlude which went on for a little part about that. And you're going to hear the familiar dynamic. Jimmy Carr trying to round off the edges to what... Rough edges. So here we go.

You know where the real problem comes? Aggressive gay men. In Saunas? Yeah. I mean, there was very little of that going on, I think. Well, most of the time. But that's, I think Sauners had that reputation. Oh, I've seen it.

Like in... I've had a guy do it to me. Oh, really? Yeah, I got to look at me in the eye and take his robe and, like, open up his towel while he's staring at me. Are there more to this story? Where does this... No. That feels like...

No. Okay. Yeah. There's no more of the story. Is the guy okay, Joe? Yeah, I didn't hurt him. I don't think I even said anything to him. I just went like this.

and then just didn't look at him and then within three minutes he put his towel back on and walked out and left like so he was fishing and that's how I met a line out there that's how I met your mother

and that is how I met Tony Hinchcliffe that's the origination story yeah it was it was insulting because he wasn't even a handsome gentleman you know wasn't even a good looking guy You're not in that business.

I'm not in that business. You don't know. I don't know, right? I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of bears out there. A lot of guys are into the big guys. You know, they're into big, big fat, hairy guys. That's a thing.

Right. Yeah. I don't know. This guy wasn't even that. He wasn't even a bear. You see something, you're disappointed that the guy that hailed you wasn't attractive. I've only had a few times in my life where men have aggressively hit on me and both of them have been disappointing. Two ones in recent memory that I can remember.

not recent memory like within you know as an adult in in in one in a bar um and one in the sauna i wonder i wonder if joe would ever perceive a guy hitting on him as not being aggressive one does one does wonder uh but in any case he maybe we just shouldn't analyze that it does it does sound like someone who's got he's got issues around that kind of thing but um yeah Oh, well, if you felt that that sounded like he's got issues. Okay, so in the bar, so how did you know the guy was hitting on you? But I knew the guy. He's a gay guy.

And he just was getting drunk and then he started getting silly. But he got a little handsy, you know, like kept touching me. And I was like, you need to stop doing that. Are you going to get hurt? Stop touching me. It just makes you realize what it's like to be a woman. But way worse. Way, way worse.

I think it's very good for empathy. to have that experience, to have a guy aggressively, drunkenly hit on you, and to know what it's like. I often think like being a bit famous, you kind of know what it's like to be a very attractive woman. Yeah, but you don't because you're not as vulnerable. And no one's trying to stick their dick inside of you for the most part. I mean in terms of you have predictable conversations.

That's true. I often think like... You get bullshitted. Did you do this is that Joe contradicted himself? On one hand, at first he said it's like, what a woman would experience, but way worse. Yeah. But then started away afterwards, but we don't know what it's like because we're so

tough and strong. We can defend ourselves and women can't. So it's not the same at all. It's actually much worse for them. And whatever. He's not very consistent. But this is actually a topic that comes up from other people who analyze Rogan and they note that he does have a strange kind of hang up around these topics.

like any time that he's talking about like, you know, gay people or whatever, he seems to, you know, like, I don't know, just be stuck in this. Like, I'm such a manly man and, you know, like, I'm definitely not gay, right, at all. And, and that just disgust me. You'll get hurt if you, you know, try to hit me too much, whatever. And just like, it's okay, Joe, nobody thinks you're gay, right? It's all right. Yeah. Yeah, it's fine. You're a big strong guy. You can defend yourself. It'll be fine in the sauna or whatever.

But yeah, just a ton of his voice and stuff. It's picking up a lot of signals. Yeah, and he's done, you know, we heard this one. Remember when he was talking about with like the COVID stuff. Whenever he was talking about people who wear masks or whatever, he's always like, they're all so weak-willed and they're scared and they're frightened and terrified. and they can't stand up for themselves. And like he always, you know, projects onto whoever he's criticizing that they're these weak will, you know, just the worst kind of characteristics.

And that is why they're doing that, right? And so when it comes to talking about like people hitting on them or whatever, he just, it's a similar sort of thing. It is a similar thing. And the common element is vulnerability. you know, he's he's not vulnerable. He's not, he's not weak. There's no, there's no way, you know, he's master of his domain.

Yeah, but someone say he's weak. No one did, Joe. No one did. It's all right. Yeah. Yeah. And he does not actually any time that he brings up critics, right? So there's, there's critics that Joe gets like, that are common, right?

And some are around his right wing, polemical stuff. Some of us around his anti-facting stuff. And some is that he's a bad. comedian. That's this. All true. Yeah. A lot of

to do all these critiques, but that aside. But you will find that he has the same reaction to all of them, right, which is to suggest that the critics are jealous and have mental problems, right? That's his reaction

through all criticism. So that does come up in two places here. So here's one of them. Oh, and this is returning to the Mueller topic, but critics do get a mention. But that thing like being loved unconditionally by your mother. And I was absolutely loved unconditionally by her in such a brilliant way.

And you go, that, it kind of gets you to self-confidence. Like you know what self-confidence is going to feel like because it's sort of the same feeling. Right, right, right. Where you're just accepted. Yeah. But you're enough. It's not about what you do or. They're happy just to see you.

Like, here's Jimmy, my Jimmy. Give me a. hug they're so happy to see you yeah that's beautiful I mean that's what all human beings want from friendships from everything we all just want to be loved and accepted and then all the other stuff is just lashing out because you weren't loved and accepted enough or it's trying to get that you know in a weird way a weird way like so you're trying to be you know you're trying to collect stuff so you get right respect and admiration rather than from what you do and then it's like

the mean people like mean people have always been hurt there's no mean people that just had nothing but love, right? Unless there's some, something psychotic, something broken, like genetically broken. Mostly of Donald Trump, actually, because mean, nasty people. There's mean nasty people. Mean nasty critics, Matt. Mean nasty habits is always criticizing Joe. But yeah, so, you know, people that would be mean or critical by other people, unlike Joe, who doesn't spend his entire podcast really against the things he dislikes. He's a very well-adjusted person, but he's,

he's all about unconditional love. That's pretty much Joe's thing. It'll never stop reminding me of that time. Him and Chris Williamson were talking about how people born that were demonizing the art group and how terrible that is. And then they immediately switch to, and you know who does that? The fucking liberals.

The Evercastle. All the people that disagree with us are so guilty of that, don't you think? They're just terrible people, though. They're not, you know, and you're like, oh, my God. But so you're a little bit more of that, Matt, about critics, especially people that criticize comedians, okay? They've definitely got things wrong with them. Sometimes you see comics arguing or, you know, shit-talking other comics online or something.

You go, what are you doing? There's the narcissism of small differences. where people go, oh, I don't like his observational stuff, or he's hacky or something. You go, we're all in the same business. Yeah, most of those people are just jealous. That's just a pettiness. It's always people that they think have success that they don't deserve. No one ever hates you for doing worse than them.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It's all silly. It's really silly. It's foolish. And unfortunately, some of them are good comics, too, that are doing. But they don't have any friends. They're islands, right?

And one of the ways that I describe comics, I go, you're either like a village. or an island. And villages do way better than islands. So an island is a man on his own out there, does his own shows and doesn't, has an opening act, and doesn't hang out with comics. There's a lot of those guys.

And unfortunately, they have the same opening act that that guy, that becomes his job. He's just an opening act now. And he only works when he works with the headliner. And then they travel around the country. And the guy never, and then you watch the act deteriorate.

There you go. Things get worse for these. these critics, Matt, these naysairs, right? These people that are jealous and just always complaining about other comedians and whatnot. It's not like they are now talking about comedians and their material getting worse or whatever. Like it's, I just, the double standards and it is so astounding, right? Like everybody that would dare criticize Rogan and his friends, they're all badly, emotionally damaged, psychotic, mental,

people, right? And him and his friends are all just like really good and reasonable. And, you know, they're just like, why would anybody criticize them? It just shows that there's something wrong. Yeah, there's two groups of people. There's a successful ones that are lavish praise on each other. People, you know, the good ones, people like us. And then there's anyone who criticizes us. Haters. Haters. Yeah. Yeah, so that's a common thing, isn't it? amongst pretty much anyone we cover, which is that there is no valid criticism. You're not allowed to criticize them. No, that puts you squarely out of the club. And like if you do criticize and you come on the show, that will be the main topic of conversation,

right? So like, but you know, Jimmy Car, part of his whole thing is like that he's a aceric comedian with like a quite strong wit. So like normally when he's interacting, and panel shows and this kind of thing, there is a lot of, you know, yeah, he'd be doing, yeah, he'd be doing it. Like I've seen him, I've seen very little of his actual work, but I've seen him on those BBC panel shows. And yeah, you know, it's the standard BBC culture, right?

That British thing where they're just always taking pot shops at each other and being a little bit smarmy and mean to each other. You will not see him do that to Rogan because he knows. is that that is not on in this domain. Yeah, well, they also have a little needle to thread because there's a comedian who's part of the Rogan verse called Tony Hinchcliffe who has a show called Kill Tony. And it's famous because it's about roasting aspiring comedians, right?

Like they're doing live sets and then these more established comedians will kind of make fun of them, right? And that's okay because they're part of the aid group, right? And people have pointed out that that's like mean and, you know, based on making fun of other people. But Joe likes that. So that is actually, that's a good thing because it's like a pathway to success. So they do talk about that. I did kill Tony last night with Tony Hinchlyffe, who's at once the meanest motherfucker in the world.

And also the kindest man in comedy. Yeah. Because you look at the careers that he's launching. Like every three, four weeks, he's launching like a new name and then they're touring and they're playing clubs and they're having a great time. And it's that thing of like you can't beat your environment. So to be around people not just that you like, but that you want to be like. Sure. So you're creating this little thing, this little space like the mothership's got this little community around it now of people that they want to get better and they're looking around and it's, you know, and you came here because Ron White was here.

Right. I mean, in no small part. A big part. And then you built this thing and it's, it's field of dreams. Look how many people are coming. And then I'm very excited to see in 20 years. I'm excited to see that too, Matt. What incredible comedic talents will emerge from the Rogan sphere. So his comedy thing in Texas is the Muller ship, right?

That's the name of his comedy club. And he's been criticized for essentially, galleying all the, you know, kind of anti-hook comic Rogan sphere into one place and they just tell the standard, you know, like a trigonometry set would go down well. Though Francis Foster didn't go down well. They did the set and kill Tony. They do have some standards, huh? Yeah, yeah, but but so, you know, there you go. There's how you fight that thing. He's the meanest person, but his intentions, Matt, are to, you know, bring people up. So. So that's how they've read that. And just, you know, the switch is flipped here on the robot again to sycophantic sincere Prius, right? And this section goes on at some length.

Well, this is what, you know, the great thing you've done is it thrown down a rope bridge. You're up there and you throw down the bridge and you bring people with you. Well, what we did is create a real workshop in a real community where there's an actual path. like there's a path from open mic night which we have two nights a week to becoming a door person where you can get spots occasionally and you'll be watched by the best

talent coordinator in the world Adam Egane he's the best he's the best he's in Hawaii this week I'm missing him oh well he'll be back no he's coming to London to see Oasis with me oh is he really oh wow that should be incredible they're smoozing but you know they're just

what Joe's building and then it's going to be talked about for decades, right? Yeah, yeah. Well, look, I'm not a big stand-up comedy guy, but I've... Tell me, Chris, like, I don't know that Joe Rogan Law. Was he, like, a successful comedian before the podcast? Was he, like, widely known at a national level? No, he wasn't.

I mean, he was a comedian. The thing that gave him his film was that he was a, like, sitcom. die and then a TV presenter and a stand-up comic. So like his kind of thing was that he was the guy from TV, right? Like doing the stand-comedy. But it was never good. Like his thing is that he's known for and often criticizes stool-humping, where he mimics the act of like sex using the stool,

the comedian sit on as a prop. And this is, you know, something that higher brow comedians often like make fun off with comedians who are

you know just getting very low grade laughs from you know acting like yeah monkeys on stage or whatever and that's

Joe Rogan's entire he can tell jokes Hel Lewis went to see his stand up and you know she said it wasn't that bad but like I've watched

some of his specials and it's he's not a great comedian by any stretch. And now he has, because of the success of his podcast and stuff, become a kingmaker in the coming world, right?

And he does have good comedians around him, like people who are, like, quick and quite well-known comedians who read him. But would they rate him if he was just a gigging comic as opposed to Joe Rodin, you know, king of podcastland? I kind of like that. Well, yeah, that's just what I was just thinking about because, like, you and I appreciate a, like, contemporary American comedy, I think, right? Like, Tim Robinson, right?

We love that. The Detroiters was fantastic, and there were lots of other people that I don't remember anyone's name, but often from Saturday Night Live and they go off and do other things. But there's a whole spectrum, I think, of really amazing, nationally known American comedians. I think there's a little very funny thing is happening. in America. And I just want, I just occur to me that, like, they're really just sort of of patting each other on the back of just how amazing they are and so on. And they're not what they think they are, like top-tier comedians. They absolutely are not. Joe Rogan, as far as

I understand his career, he got a massive advantage from being the first mover, one of the early first movers in podcasterston. You know, they're like, there was no way he would be the most popular podcast in the world. If we were starting now. If we were starting now or even just a few years later, right? Because his show was recommended. Like I remember when I started listening to podcasts, his podcast just was incessantly recommended to me.

Now, there would be nothing in my listening habits, which would have said to any algorithm, oh, Matt, you're the sort of person who would like Joe Rogan. So if he was being continually, the J.R.E was being continually pushed to me. It would have been pushed to everyone else simply from the fact but it was already popular, right? Yeah, and he was a genuine entrepreneur of sorts in that space,

like there were allers, but he was one of the earliest ones, and he deserves credit for kind of pioneering. So not to take anything away from him, but just to point out that he is lucky, right, to a large extent, and the podcast thing is his main claim to fame, certainly the thing that makes the most... That's not what he thinks, but... Yeah, I mean, he does acknowledge that,

but he often will much more strongly identify that he's like primarily a comic which and from that whole set that he has probably the most successful comedian is a guy called Shane Gillis who is a genuinely good

comedian but part of the Rogan sphere yeah and then you have your few bonds and your Andrew Schultz and all of those people right who are also there And they are varying degrees of successful comedians, but like in large part, they have built a brand in a similar way to Rogen by focusing on like podcasts, right?

Like Phil Vaughan and what used to be on a separate podcast with an ex-MMA guy. But he, you know, he has in part become more famous because of his podcasting stuff and interviews, right? And yeah. His stand-up is a variable. quality. So whatever. It's just the Rogan's fear in the comedy world is often lamented by all professional comedians for creating this kind of pocket of sycophants around Rogan and for it to be all peddling a very similar style of comedy, the kind of anti-woke-row comedy, right?

That is, to be fair, mediocre at best. The best version is Ching Gillis, and he doesn't really do exactly that. but like he's kind of spun out of the Rogan orbit a little bit that, you know, he's genuinely big or maybe now, especially in the comic world than Rogan. And you also have the guy, Tim Dillon. Oh, yeah. Yeah, him as well, right? So it's like that.

But the way, actually, this is, this will allow us to pivot a little bit to some Jimmy Carr-centric stuff. Because Rogan often philosophizes about the nature. of comedy and comedians and how important they are for society, right? He's talked about there possibly being only 1,000 elite-level comedians in the world, and that they're a more precious commodity than doctors or physics people or whatever, because there's only a thousand of them, Matt, right? There's tens of thousands of physicists. Joe is numbered among this.

Oh, Joe is numbered amongst, yes, this elite, of course. Joe and all his friends. Yes, there is that familiar thing. to it. But Jimmy Carr also, the interesting thing is he comes from the British tradition, which as you said, you know, and as we often talk about, there is a strong culture of self-deprecation in British comedy and culture in general, right? And I think amongst comedians, not taking yourself too seriously, or at least, you know, presenting that you're able to laugh at yourself is a venerable tradition that we associate with comedians. But there's like a new

We have, I don't know if it's new or I just didn't notice comedians doing this, of comedians who take themselves extremely seriously and who, like, philosophies about the important role the comedians play in society. And just to show Matt, that Jimmy Carr can do the British version of it, there is a bit where he talks about himself and that, Yeah, this is more like the kind of self-deprecating stuff. Yes. People used to die from a fucking rusty nail snagged them and they would die, right?

So modern medicine has given, we have to look at what's what the positive side is. There's an immense positive side. Oh, my God. Pharmaceutical drugs. You're talking to a man in his 50s with a hair transplant. I've had a bit of work done. Don't even start me on the Viagra. I've got a lot to be thankful for for medical science, right?

So a big farmer, great. They've done a lot of good. And then other stuff. The antibiotics, there's things that are resistant now to antibiotics. Yeah. So anyway, it's an example of car being self-deprecatory. And, you know, before with his little comment about his baby dick and shrinkage, I mean, it's a broad joke.

It's not an original joke. Seinfeld did a better, like, 20, 30 years ago. But, you know, I don't think I can recall. Joe Rogan, I don't think I could imagine Joe Rogan joking about himself in that kind of way. Yeah, or at least it's certainly not as common. So you do have that, okay, but that's not the general tone that is taking around comedy in this episode. So I'm now going to play here some clips. It's mostly Jimmy Carr, but, you know, Rogan is contributing about the way he views comedy. Because the feedback loop, everything is split tested. Everything is, how do you feel?

about that right and the the one audience member know anything about comedy and jokes get a hundred of them together genius they know exactly what's funny what isn't funny what's acceptable where the line is and you're you're getting that feedback the whole time so like doing comedy it's not it's not repetition it's iteration mm-hmm it's just that you're getting a constant sort of feedback from these these people it's a mind meld right yeah and people want it because they want to come out because you know is the you we would gather around a fire and do this, right?

And then we gathered around the wireless and we talked. And then we gathered around the TV and did this. That's what you called. The wireless. The wireless. That was what it was called. For real? Yeah, for real.

That was called the wireless. Wow. Yeah. And then you ever heard that? No. It's the wireless. Okay. The wireless is like cellular coverage.

Yeah. And then it's the, but then it's cell phones now. And we're alienated. We're more connected and less connected than ever. And then you go out. I was in the mothership last night doing Kill Tony. And that audience were like, church. Comedy is church now, Matt.

It's the new religion there, right? So, you know, we used to gather around the fire and, you know, and then we were watching TVs or the wireless radio or whatever. And you got the thing which you always get about, you know, lamenting the fall of society, modern technology. We're all addicted to your phones. stuff, right? But you go to the militia and people there are having authentic experiences together, right? Yes. That's that's it feels very sense-makery too, hey, that love that kind of thing.

And you know, the thing is that there's a core of truth on that, like where he started with it, which is something I never thought about much. But, you know, it's true about that point about when you're talking or making jokes or lecturing or whatever, when you have a live audience in front of you, then you are constantly getting feedback, which is kind of be, I think, amending how you do it and will make you better at doing it. I think there's an authentic observation, right? It's just that taking, but then taking that to the next level. Yeah, it's like you can understand as comedians discussing their craft, right? And that this is, you know, of course, they're going to have thoughts about the way to interact with audiences and

stuff. But imagine, you know, if we attributed the same level of importance as you're going to hear they do to things like giving a lecture at university, right? You know, we're like, and I can imagine Jordan Peterson doing exactly that being like, this is a secret bond, you know, where you are orientating yourself towards the vertical as I am a conduit for information, you know, from greater minds and ancestors and this is, you know, exactly what society is built upon, these kind of educational inter- and you can do that, but it's just, it's so self-aggrandizing. And of course, there are things which are true in it. And people can do whatever extent, you know, they want, reflect on the processes involved and so on. But it would be hard to have a higher opinion

than they do about whatever it is they're interested in or doing. That's what's like, the most important, the most authentic, the most real thing. And if you want to hear it, like, being compared to what the rest of society is doing, listen to this. Yeah, it's disposable. Oh, no, I got to get away from you. Yeah. You want to show me old TikToks. You're a fucking psycho.

Yeah, it's like, but it's, that's the nature of it. Right, right. But, like, crime and punishment is not addictive. You know, the book. Yeah. You know, but Twitter is. Yeah. Fascinating.

Right? Isn't it fascinating to something like very valuable, some amazing piece of literature is not addictive, you know? I wonder. Yeah, I wonder with that. I wonder, is it the, that thing of, um, Orders Huxley? Like the idea that brave new world. Our power won't be taken from us by some overlords, like in 1984, will give away our power for cheap dopamine. Yes. And the problem with the world is there's a lot of cheap dopamine on offer. So, you know, doom scrolling, it's the same as the is in a casino. But then there's real joy. If you go out and see live comedy, I think what we're drug dealers, right?

Oh, yeah. And the two drugs, it's dopamine and serotonin. And the dopamine is you don't quite know where the punchline is coming. You know there's a punchline, but you don't know quite where it's going to be. Right. And then there's the seroton, the joy of laughter as well. And then you can get a fake. version online or video games are like a proxy for the career that the kid isn't having.

Right. There's levels and layers and then a big boss at the end. It couldn't be a clear analogy or porn is a proxy for love and sex. It's like we go for the easy option. Yeah. But actually when you work for it, it's just better. Mm. Disposable dopamine versus the, yeah.

It's the fact that comedy, like going to a comedy show gets elevated. That's the bit I kind of missed. Like I think there's something to it, right? Obviously around easy entertainment, you know, getting little bits of pleasure, which doesn't require much effort. Back in the day, television was great like that. Might not have been quite as fun as doing something that required a lot more effort, but you'll find yourself watching television because it's incredibly easy.

So the ratio of effort to reward can, sort of motivate what we think of as unhealthy behavior. So it's under something there, right? But I didn't quite see how, like, that elevation of going to a comedy club. Like, is like going to a sports game, like a real one? I mean, I know it's different. You know, you've got the feeling of the crowd around you. You've got the social dynamics and so on.

But is it, is watching it on TV that much worse? Is one of them just cheap thrills and empty and the other one is real? Well, they were talking about the disposable nature of like TikTok clips. And, you know, if someone was showing you like their old favorite TikTok clips that you would think they were mental, right? But actually, they don't like play the fullhood out completely because one thing that trends on TikTok and Instagram is segments from comics shows, right? And people do share them around, including old ones of like, oh, look at this old joke that somebody said and whatnot. And so like that's the kind of disposable mind rot, presumably, right? But they wouldn't regard that as disposable mindrop because that's comedy.

That's the stuff that makes you think. And, you know, Matt, like the other bit they go on about, and this is kind of building on is they're saying that like real great literature, you know, the stuff that stands the test of time. It's always crime and punishment. Well, and also that it's like it's not fun. no one actually enjoys it and they're saying it's not addictive

to read them because it's like effort and stuff and I'm kind of like you guys don't get it like lots of that stuff one it is fun for the audiences at the time right it is their enjoyment but but also they've regarded as like you know high art and like therefore it has

more like more I know you agree with like that overall sentiment but you know it's just that thing where they're kind of like nobody's addicted to reading literature or whatever and you're like actually actually people are right people do enjoy reading i i agree with you i mean like i like i have been in situations where literally you know read all night for instance right because i i couldn't stop right and it was not a good idea right temporarily addicted to reading something because i really

really enjoyed it but it is more effortful i think so i'm i think i probably agree with the underlying premise, right? Which is some things have a higher reward and are better for you in the long term, but do require higher effort. And they tend to be less addictive than something that might offer a cheap thrill, but be really, really easy to consume. Is attending a comedian set not the definition of a trick thrill? That's where they lost me, right?

That's where they lost me, right? Like, I see tons of sets, you know, on social media. And I'm like, if I was in the crowd there, is that enriching to my life? And I've got to other places that involve going out of the house, going to a nightclub or something. And it was all about the cheap thrills. So, you know, it's all a bit mixed up. You can't. It's the double standards.

Yes, yes. But, you know, like I keep talking about, I know, I know where it's going. And they are attributed a lot more importance to this than. you could possibly imagine. So like Jimmy Carr talks about this later in it, for example. I mean, I'm working with these two incredible women, Abby Grant and Amanda Baker on the book, and it's taking a long time. But I do think it's something that if you could teach it in schools, the idea of comedy,

even as opposed to music, which is wonderful to learn, and you appreciate music much more if you've ever given the guitar a go, because you can appreciate what they're doing. But the idea of comedy is being taught because you go, well, you have to write down and order your thoughts. That's a value. You have to learn how to communicate and speak publicly. That's a value.

And then you're speaking in your authentic voice. And that's the saddest thing. Most people live and die, and they never speak in their own authentic voice. Yeah. It's a great thing to give kids, I think. I think it'd be a great thing to, you know, if it's an after-school activity,

I would sign my kids up. Yeah, I mean, there's definitely value to it. And even if you don't have that style of comedy, like a joke writing style, even if you're more of a storyteller, you're like a Ron White type where tell stories, there's always value in learning different techniques to craft material and craft jokes. Okay, yes.

I'm getting the point. They take comedy, their job, their profession, very seriously. It's of the utmost importance. We should be teaching it to all students. Yeah. But can we be charitable, though? I think everybody should learn statistics.

I think the world would be a better place, everyone. Well, but why do, yeah, this is the thing. With all this introspection, they never, the thing that never seems to happen with Ian McGilchrist or Jimmy Carr or any of them is like, the things that I like, it turns out, are the most important and valuable things in the universe, right? Like, this is the thought that they all have. And then the stuff that they don't like is, you know,

kind of useless and bad for society and what that. You're like, is it like that? Or, yeah. So, you know. Has David Mitchell ever been on the Joe Rogan podcast experience? No, of course not. Yeah, he wouldn't. Why would he?

I'm not like him. Yeah. Yeah. And it's just interesting to select it. Because I was just thinking about these comedians. Like, I've never put, like, it's not about criticizing his comedy ability. It maybe is a good comedian. I don't know.

but he's never featured in my mind as one of the great or really good English comedians, just like Joe Rogan already that his people in his orbit have never featured in great American comedians. I'm just wondering how they, to see the world where them and their friends are like at the pinnacle of this, but there is another world, there is a bigger comedy world out there, people that are not in that orbit at all and don't do what they're doing. well yeah I think jimicari is good at like a one-line punchline comic from what I've seen and you know fairly decent

then panel shows and that can have I wasn't waiting this to hear his philosophical insights but here they are you can't escape them yeah the community I can't imagine Steve Coogan of the Jari oh I don't know I can I can imagine that because you know the especially the Hollywood comedians they know how to give an interview and do that. Like, again, even imagine David Mitchell,

rocking with Roggan, and most of his jokes just going over his head, because he has talked to, like, sardonic comedian types before, and they just basically make jokes, and Joe just doesn't catch them, right? He doesn't get them. He's got an incredibly bad sense of humor for someone. He's a professional comedian, I know. Yeah, you're right. You shouldn't say never. Any of these public figures could potentially go on J.R.E.

I shouldn't say never. No. just around this outmat, this specific point. And I'm not going to actually need you have to listen to this. But, you know, there is a lot of philosophy in how you perform comedy. And it's worth considering. Well, sometimes you just have to have access to other thoughts. And when someone's a good comic like yourself, what happens is you allow that person,

you kind of think for you when you're enjoying their performance. And sometimes it's just that. That's enough. Sometimes it's great philosophy or a great book. Or someone gives a great, like, inspirational, speech where it just makes you like really think like wow like what is it about the way this person is talking right now that is changing my state it's changing my state of mind because I'm thinking the way they're thinking they're allowing them because they're so eloquent taking the controls yeah

and because what they're saying is so precise and they have so much passion in what they're saying there's so much enthusiasm that it's contagious and now all of a sudden I feel better it's that um it's Its perspective. You know, have you ever had Peter McGraw on here? No. Peter McGraw is that guy that came up with the benign violation theory of comedy. What is that? There's a benign violation theory of comedy.

I think you can guess what it is likely to be. It's not that hard. But, you know, to a certain extent, I just accept that certain people are going to attribute like real philosophical depth to whatever it is they do. and Jimmy Carr certainly seems of that bent. And yeah, so this is the other part that is going on when he's not sycophantically praising Rogin, are like these kind of philosophical insights.

And then there isn't another category of topic that comes up, Matt. Probably the last thing that will cover when it comes to this conversation. And that last thing is when they engage in, kind of pop science regurgitation, you might call it, Matt, where they talk about, in Jimmy Carr's case, it's kind of evil psych stuff that he might have come across, and they confidently regurgitated to Joe Rogan, or Joe Rogan does it in response. So as an example, let's have a look at them discussing evolution and the history of this planet. Important topics, but how does it

filter-free Jimmy Carr. Yeah. I think there's no, I don't think it's like, it's like there's different strains of kind of Darwinian evolution, right? So there's, there's for survival, right? And then there's reproductive. And I think what we're doing now, speaking, I think is reproductive. I think what we're doing is it's almost like peacock feathers, right?

So you go, feathers initially weren't for flight. They were for display. Really? Well, that's the, that's the, that's the, the theory is that, well, how did feathers? Because what was the point of a feather before it was for wings, for flying? How would you get to that through evolution? Well, actually, if it was for display first, if the peacock is using the feathers correctly, that was the original idea for display for mating. And to show that I have this, I have so much extra energy, I'll be a good mate

to show the female. I have so much color and vibrancy and stuff. So why birds sing? I've got this excess energy, I'll be a good mate. Okay, so that thing... The weird thing is it came from dinosaurs, though. Dinosaurs, they believe, are feathered now. Yeah. Yeah, so, like, that's how dinosaurs were breeding, imagine? Yeah, well, dinosaurs as well.

The theory on why they died out is interesting. On the... They used to... So we randomly assign gender, and they assign gender as on the basis of temperature. So when the asteroid hit, it didn't kill all the... The dust didn't kill all the dinosaurs. What happened was every dinosaur was born female in the next generation because the temperature cooled.

Some lizards still do it. They assign gender by what the temperature is. So the temperature falls, you go, all right, okay, everyone's female. And when the temperature is above a certain amount, everyone's male. So there's a generation of all female or all male, whatever it was, dinosaurs. What a flaw. Small point, but I think he's talking about sex in amphibians. as a person

Well, you know, we said a sign. The dinosaurs are signed. There's quite a lot of slippage in terminology there. But, well, let's start at the end, Matt. Yeah, pull it up, Jamie. Can you pull that up? Pull it up. That's right.

Yeah, pull that up. So, Jeeb Carr said all dinosaurs changed. Sex, that's why they died out. You know, there was asteroid. Of course, that was a bad outcome, the massive meteorite. that blotted out the sun or whatever. But actually, dinosaurs were to be fine with that, were it not for this evolutionary flaw

where the reproduction was all organized around temperature. So I didn't know that, Matt. No, I didn't know that. I thought it was the asteroid, you know, the cataclysmic, you know, world-changing effects of the asteroid. Maybe that's a simplistic interpretation. But we did fact-check that one. And no, no, it's a totally speculative idea.

that the world cooling following the cataclysmic effects of the asteroid might have had some effect on their reproduction, totally unsupported. Yeah. So it's like all these kind of things where there might be a paper or some people that have discussed it, but it's presented as actually. Did you know? Yeah, there's a fact. Yeah, here's an interesting fact.

It's just something they read that somebody thought. Yeah. And Jimmy Carr actually before that, Matt, he said a couple of things that just like it scrapes my soul to hear. Like he said there's different forms of Darwinian evolution. And what he wants to talk about there is like sexual selection and natural selection and so on. Right? Those different. But he mistakes it and says one of them is about reproduction.

And you're like, no, they're all about reproduction in like Darwin. evolution because sexual selection is the selective processes that lead to the genes getting into the next generation. So they're all reproductive. But he kind of like says, there's Darwinian evolution. Then there's Darwinian evolution focused on reproduction. And you're like, what? No, that's not, that's not right. And you know, the thing with fellas, I'm also not sure that Joe Rogeth knows the dinosaurs, the birds came from dinosaurs. Because he, he says like, oh, but those were were from dinosaurs as if, you know, but how did birds get fellas if it was originally dinosaurs?

Like, do you know? It was in Jurassic Park for God's sake. But the other thing is, so Jimmy Carr is talking about the evolution of fellows, which is an interesting topic. And obviously they didn't spring and immediately an animal was born with fellas and just flew off into the sky, right? But he again, very confidently stresses. that the original purpose was sexual signaling when there's a whole host of potential precursor

functions for fellers, including insulation, Matt, for example. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Or chlam up much or, you know, any number. Just like hair, right? A lot of animals have hair. So that is, in fact, the most plausible thing there. So his idea that whatever, you had the peacock display thing. They evolved.

Oh, he says that's the original. That's the intended purpose. He's like, they're using it properly. And you're like, no, that's not like. Because he said, you know, he's kind of saying the peacock is ridiculous. You know, like we think it's extreme. But actually, that is the original function for fellas. And you're like, no, that's like, it's the wrong way to look at it.

Yeah. I mean, it's not entirely silly because obviously the feathers, as he said, did come before like perfect. flight, almost by definition. And it could well been used for signaling, before flying, yes, but most people think it was, insulation is much more likely function of it. Anyway, I mean, the point here, I guess, is not to be nitpicky,

but these are, I just, I guess examples of the... You always say that as we're nitpacers. Yeah, it is nitpicking, it is nitpicking, But, you know, look, I've been known to talk casually, Chris. So I just want to give people a pass for being inexact in their terminology. I'm sure if I was talking about sexual selection off the cuff, I would probably choose the wrong words, the wrong phrases too. Yeah, but it's kind of the confidence with which, like, whatever pop science thing they've read

is like spied off, right? And they talk about, you know, things that are very real, like sexual selection or costly signaling, right? Or the handicap principle about being able to display and this, like having the biological resources, right, to carry around big fellows and what and signal that you're a robust member of the species, right? Yeah, costly display, right? Yeah, yeah. These things are real and have real evidence for them. but it's just like the way it's presented there. I don't know.

It's always very loose, but presented with very strong confidence. And that combination, yeah, is greeting, right? And I mean, like similarly, Matt, he says, you know, birds singing is that, right? It's costly signaling. And again, is that true that, like, you know, the string of a song is intended

Like, because it is true that when birds sing, they make themselves more visible to predators. But, like, you know, it's kind of, again, it's just all that stuff where it's stated with such confidence, but there's such superficial levels of knowledge that it's often, you know, the same way like, we just see this so much with like Scott Galloway or Ian McGill-Christ or whatever. It's the same pattern. They're always talking about like real things. But then they kind of glide over all of the details. and important caveats around stuff. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's more the, like, jumping from a factoid

to a very confident inference that tends to bother me. Like, even when the factoid is 100% correct, it's often used as just a jumping off point for an incredibly broad and sweeping thing that feels intuitive and good to them, but is absolutely not supported by the factoid that they are giving. And, like, I feel like I'm a small expert on Byrd Song at the moment, because I'm very good friends with three magpies that live in our backyard.

And let me tell you this, Chris, our yard and the surrounding yards, it's their territory. And I've seen them mob other birds and take them out when they dare to encroach on their territory. And I happened to check that out because I was just curious because they do sing a lot too. They sing to me when they see me and they think I might have some grubs for them. and they also sing a lot to say, fuck off to the other birds. So I'm sure there's like a dozen, well, not dozens, but I'm sure there's a lot of other functions as well. But neither of those two would fall into the category of costly sexual signaling

because they're certainly not trying to woo me to have sex with me when they sing to me. And when they're singing often, they're not trying to woo other birds. They're telling them to get stuffed. Yes. So it's the answer is ever, Matt, it's just like it's more complex, right? So I'm not saying everything that they're saying is incorrect. I'm just saying basically what you said, like the kind of leaping from factoids to these very confident assertions. I mean, it's understandable. People do it all the time. But it's just, you know, we know from all their material how much

Joe Rogan and Jimmy Car and others like him. Like extrapolate, wildly. I've heard Jimmy Carr talk about the state of physics in other things, right? And he's just extrapolating from what he heard from Eric Weinstein or Sabina Hossomfelder, as if he understands the current research meta in physics from having listened to them say that there's nothing happening, right? Yeah. The other thing is physics. So this is Peter Thiel's point, but minus the screens from any room were living in the 1970s, right? So nothing's happened in physics since 72. String theory has not got us anywhere.

But if you take the compute power of AI and point it as at physics, now, everything else in science is stamp collecting, right? Physics is the real thing. That gave us everything. Every bit of technology that we have comes from the physics department. And, you know, what happens when you point AI? that that feels to me like something that people aren't really thinking about and is incredibly could be incredible but but I will I will what's the word qualify criticisms right because

like it's not wrong for instance that you know some bird song probably functions as you know a costly signal right singing a very loud very complicated thing very impressive to birds of the same species of the opposite sex. So, you know, I mean, it's okay to speak loosely, I guess, is what I'm trying to say. It's really, it's the using those things as a jumping off point for wild kind of theories that are just like them speculating about the way things are. Like, that's what gets Joe Rogan into trouble and why he, he ends up with an incredibly bad understanding of how the world works. Yeah, that's, that's the problem. That is a problem. And the thing which immediately followed this, which might have colored my view, is that Jimmy Carr talks about a piece of research

that I know, actually two pieces of research that I know. Well, it's a weird thing. You said it earlier about the idea of like our competitive advantage, right? You drop one guy in the jungle, you've fed the animals, drop 10 guys and you have an apex predator, right? Right. What cooperation is our superpower. And for me, cooperation is downstream of play. Play is everything. We're the playing animal. Someone wrote a book about this, like in the 1930s, about how we are designed to play. Our culture is about play. Yes. And kids play. And you go, well, that cooperation is what leads to all of this. And weirdly, the Catholic Church, I didn't say this earlier, but the Catholic Church has got a lot to be, we've got a lot to be grateful for. Because in the 12th

century, the Catholic Church banned cousin marriage. Really? And the reason they did it was because they realized the tribe was more important than the church. And they hated that. Right. So the unintended consequence was they said, you can't marry your cousin or your second cousin or your third cousin down to the sixth cousin. Really? And they broke the tribes. Now, when you break tribes, what happens? Well, you form small family groups and then you have to trust people. So trust builds. And then from trust you get guilds and associations. and a legal system and everyone

because before that it's like well you're cousin you trust him it's family the royal family right back in the day doomed the royal family you know we still got them

yeah but I mean the old ones with the fucked up faces yeah with a no chin yeah they look weird yeah no chin just into marriage into marriage into marriage so that's what was taken away

so the unintended consequence of that was more cooperation and people had to get on with other people and there was like so have you heard of part? Yeah, I remembered that when that paper was a thing, actually on Twitter, that's where I came across it. And I did end up reading the paper and maybe talking about it with you, actually, years ago. You've probably forgotten. No, no, I remember. I'm checking if you'd remember.

Well, I remember us talking about it and I remember reading the paper. I forget the details of the upshot. I think isn't the upshot that it's complicated? The paper kind of involves looking at like social systems in different parts of Europe, when different timings of when this prohibition came into play, and then seeing whether or not the cultural differences are there. So my recollection is that it's a bit messy and partial evidence at best. Yes, they're talking about a paper by Jonathan Schultz at all, right? And the person also often cited with it as Joe Henrik, called the church intensive kinship and global psychological variation in science, right? And in this case, they were trying to explain the emergence of weird psychology, weird, right? This Western

educated, industrialized, rich, democratic type of psychology associated with the development of science and capitalism supposed to be analytical and individualistic and so on, right? And in their paper, they correlate it with centuries under the Western medieval churches, which had stronger bounds on cousin marriage. And they show like the countries that have the longer exposure to that kind of church, that they have more of these features. And of course they try to control for other factors. But as you say, Matt, it's quite complicated.

There's been responses since then where people argue, you know, that the way they treat the evidence, there's issues with her, right? Because there's historical evidence that weak European kinship patterns around those kind of cousin-based marriages predate the church's interventions. And the church's interventions are also enforced in different ways, right? There, Jimmy Carter says the 12th century, but actually there were prohibitions and rules like from as early as the 7th century and so on. But the point is, there is that paper, like, you know, was a provocative thesis and has some evidence for it. And there's been responses arguing against it. And there's people that argue for it.

There's people that argue other things are more important, right? Historical pathogen prevalence or different systems of agriculture, so on and so forth. There's all different theories. But here, Jimmy Carr, the way they present research is sort of like, oh, I heard this. and this explains, you know, actually, it's all the Catholic Church. And here instead, it gets converted into, you know, oh, they've, like they've proven, right, that this is the case. And I've got a separate point about that little thing there, which is he led with the cooperation as our superpower, right? Yes.

It's a thing that's really special. And also that it's downstream of play. So it's only when you play and you learn how, that you then learn how to cooperate perhaps. So this seems to me to be quite wrong, right? Because cooperation, first of all, happens heaps, right, in a lot of different species, from bees to wolves, right? There are lots of cooperative of species. And, you know, play is a separate thing, you know?

So, like, it's not like, it isn't a purely human superpower, and it's not clear at all, actually, that play is the integral thing that it enables cooperation. to occur, right? But that's someone else's theory that he's mentioned. You know, this is the things that scholars like to do is, like, you know, they pick one thing. They say this was the most important, like, development, right, to make humans hyper-cooperators, right? It might be cooking. Language.

It could be language. It can be consuming psychedelics, right? It can be all sorts of things that people emphasize. But here he's picked up two theories, right? And he's kind of combined them when there's like that we need to play. and that humans spend more time than other species in adolescence and, like, play activities and so on, which is likely true. And then the second thing, that the church prohibits cousin marriage, which is believed to have weakened kinship bonds, which allows for Western individualistic

psychology to emerge and dominate, right? And it's, again, it's that kind of thing where you just hear a theory and you're like, So, you know, and this is what the podcast do, right, all the time. Yeah. Yeah, and so I guess how I describe it is that the way that they talk, and this is probably typical of Jimmy Carwood, he's not doing pure comedy, it's pretty similar to how a lot of people talk casually. Oh, I heard this thing.

How about this? Blah, blah, blah. You know, it's all pretty lackadaisical, non-rugorous, not particularly well-informed, just like a bit of a magpie, noticing interesting things and talking shit. And that's fine. But just, I guess, I appreciate that's what it is.

You wouldn't want people to be thinking that this kind of, you know, like a magpie, you know, picking up shiny things that they've heard, is any kind of like informed expert or even just insightful or intellectual opinion. And I guess when these comedians make this transition to being this kind of opinionator person, and having a three-hour thing with Joe Rogan where they talk about Life the Universe and everything. They are segueing into this is how, you know what I mean?

Like they're not just chewing the fat, right? No, no, they're not. And like, you're right, if this was taken that way in general in these podcast fears, that would be one thing. But, you know, Jordan Peterson, allers, right?

They also kind of speak in this way and tie it into their academic expertise and discourse, while denouncing all of the, you know, research institutions that generally produce the research that they then extract the theories from. But like, it's just that I know this kind of evil psych type approach. I like, you know, the cultural evolution stuff. But this is the way that it filters into discourse.

And I know, of course, you're right that, like, in general, there's lots of podcasts and TV shows and media, whatever, that this is the way to cover science, right? they just present it in like a very simplified way and don't accurately represent it. But the thing with these podcasts is they're often these big, long, in-depth conversations. And you can see from the way that the people involved talk about the value of them and whatever, that they are regarding them as the kind of modern Socratic dialogues. And like, no, they're much more equivalent to your friend.

talking shit in a pub. That is what it is. And it should be regarded as that. But like when, you know, when Joe Rogan talks about vaccines, which he does, it's the exact same kind of you know, yeah. Yeah. And way that evidence is treated. Yeah, like someone who was defending Joe Rogan or Jimmy Car for that matter might say correctly that a little bit or a lot less so than a Jordan Peterson or a McGilchrist is that they are not pretending to be in experts on these things. that they are, you know, they're just two guys chewing the fat and whatever. But, you know, pretty often the conversation moves from this grab bag of half-informed observations to stuff like, why should women even want to be president and stuff like that

and don't get vaccinated and the Democrats are all trying to murder people. Like it does end with some like non-chill type conclusions that does rest on this foundation that there are a couple of guys that really understand what's going on. So that defense, which is just, I've just a couple of guys talking, I'll admit it to some degree, but not that much. Yeah, and Jimmy Carr goes on to talk about Dunbar and grooming and, you know, all that kind stuff. We've talked about it as well in the same kind of manner, right?

Like, I don't want to play the clip. You've got the general idea of how he treats that kind of really. research. And just for comparison, here's Rogan. Rogan has some discussion of evolution. It's like I have very bizarre theories about the evolution of the human animal itself. What do you think? I don't, I don't necessarily think it happened without help. I have a feeling that we were assisted. I think that's one of the reasons why we vary so much. We're just like dogs. You know, dogs are so, we've, dogs vary so much. But dogs all came from wolves. Yeah. Every dog came from a wolf.

It does strike me as like, it's a very strange thing how long humanity has been here. And how recently, like 10,000 years ago in northern Japan was the first settlement. And how quickly things have progressed. I don't think that's true. I don't think we're right about that. And I think there's, no, there's an interesting, there's a bunch of interesting guys. But there's one that I still. Who's that guy that I brought up the other day, who's a British anthropologist?

Well, I already like him. who has this, no, you did, that's why I brought that up. He's got a YouTube channel, and he's like, human beings have been in this, his argument essentially is that human beings have been in this particular form, this homo sapient form for somewhere in their neighborhood of 300,000 years. Why would we assume that it took us so long to get to where we are as far as society and technology and innovation? Isn't it far more likely that this was achieved multiple times followed by great catastrophes that brought us back to square one?

And there's a lot of evidence for that. There's a lot of evidence for that in terms of like 11,800 years ago, the younger dry ice impact theory, which is actually physical evidence of like meteor, comet impacts on Earth, the gigantic landscape changes, ending of the ice age, melting of the polarizing. caps, massive flooding, rising sea levels, all that stuff's documented. But then he's talking about like, what about 100,000 years before that? If we're in the same form, if society did reach a very high level of sophistication, maybe in a different way, a hundred thousand years ago, how much evidence would be left? The answer is zero. But the human remains the same. If you took a 100,000 year old person, you could bring them to the fucking shave their face, sit him in a movie theater.

They would have no, you would have no idea that that was. a person from 100,000 years ago. They look real fucking similar to us. You got into ancient archaeology. Ancient civilizations. But even more than ancient civilization, something intervened to

human evolution. Ancient aliens, perhaps. Yes, I think that's the and he says humans are like dogs. And like, I don't know if Joe has paid that much attention. But like, yes, there's phenotypic variation in humans, right, like to a certain degree, but it's no one here.

Not like dogs. It's like, yeah, humans are like dogs. You know, there's tall humans and small humans and there's like, you know. But there's nothing analogous to it, but there's nothing analogous to like a chihuahua and a German shepherd. Like that's that's not, there's not, that's not happening with the current human race. Yeah. And there also, I mean, you just hear Joe Rogan's reasoning again, applied to us like, you know, wouldn't it be much more likely that there is multiple advanced sterilizations reached in the past and that we just don't have the, and you're like, no, Joe, because that would leave evidence. Because any goes to say, you know, there wouldn't be, there wouldn't be any evidence.

You're like, why would they're not, why would there not be evidence? Like, we can, we can find. fossils of dinosaurs, right? Like, his logic is interesting, because if you follow through how he thinks about it, according to Joe, humans became biologically modern, like 300,000 years ago, right? It's obviously a gradient. It's, you know, you've got to pick some time, but it's obviously a great, right? But that's roughly in the times on that, like, that's mainstream. Yes.

Yeah, that's right. But he's thinking, okay, so we were already there in terms of having all of our abilities now, then it's more likely that we would have achieved this incredibly complicated civilization, sort of like straight away, like quickly, like at the thing, you know, when it's like, well, his mind, his mental model is that there is a starting point, like a start line 300 years ago, and then you go. And then, so something happening five times is not, in principle, more likely that something happening one time. Like, it's going to, it's going to be less, right? Anyway.

Well, no. Wait, hold on. You're going to confuse people, I feel, because, like, if you have, like, five years, right, you might not expect a meteor shower, but if you have, like, 500,000 years, it's obviously reasonable to expect you're going to experience more meteor showers or more, you know, like megavocino explosions or whatever. So the probability is not the same within it happening in a longer amount of time. Yeah, yeah.

But it's just, it's not an analogy. is what I'm saying. Like, you don't know, you don't know the probability, right? First of all, there is a clear. Developing to like a civilisation. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. That, yes. But, you know, in Jewish mind, it's like, he's just calculating it to natural disasters happening in wiping, like completely wiping out all evidence of advanced civilizations. And then he also says, you know, the younger dryest impact. That's all, that's definitely proven. eye and Balden. No, it is. No, it is not. I just want Joe to revisit the incontrovertible evidence of the massive battery power systems that are underneath the pyramids. I want him to.

No, that's gone. They don't care about that anymore. Yeah. I mean, it might come up. But, yeah, so, you know, just Rogan hears something that he likes. He seeks out, like, YouTube channels or whatever that tell him, you know, Graham Hancock or whatever. But then he presents it as, you know, that is like solid fact. And also you saw that thing there Matt that you pointed out that like Joe Rogan doesn't mind saying these guests. No, no, I think that's you're wrong there. That's not right. Like he can do that as the great can do that. Exactly. Yeah. And the guest takes the memo and looks for it at you know, leaves that. A point of agreement. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is interesting. Yeah. So the the social dynamic here is very much the great con.

a supplicant, someone who's wanting to entertain, being approached by his gesture, and making an offering. Some of the offerings are rejected, blah, it's swept off the table. Others are accepted and indulged. That is the dynamic. And it's not just pop evil psych or evolution science stuff, right? It can also be history, Matt. But it's a response to the power structures that were really detrimental,

and the power structures of the church. There's a reason why the priests aren't allowed to have sex. It's because they were fucking everybody because they had power. You know what happened. What happened? Okay. The plague happened. So when the plague happened, it wiped out about a third of the population of earth.

Right? So the plague was huge. Now, it had a much worse effect on the priesthood because everyone got last rights. So when you were dying, you got last rights. Oh, wow. So the priesthood was knocked out like 95% of priest died. Oh my God, I didn't even think of that. The standards, pre the plague, the standards in the church were the smartest guy you've ever met.

The smartest guy in the village, the town, the region was the priest. The smartest of the smartest guy, the most intelligent guy, became the bishop. And the pope was like, this guy's a genius. It was the best of the best, the creme de la creme. The standards for the priesthood post the plague. This guy's got all his own teeth. you're in. Like it went down.

And then all that thing of like the plenary indulgences where you could buy your way into heaven is all, you know, all of that came off the back of the thing. So the standards kind of went down and then it became kind of corrupted. How dirty is that one, the buying your way into heaven? Well, it's so dirty. Well, people don't realize that. People often laugh at like the, you know, he's going to blow himself up to get 72 virgins. the Crusaders all got a fast track to heaven. Nice.

Yeah. Some guy tells you. Yeah. I've just discovered this. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, the very last thing he said about Crusaders being fundamentalist nut jobs, that bit's true.

That bit's true. I've read histories of the Crusades. It's very interesting. That bit's true. Everything Kelsey said there, starting with the Black Death killing 95% of, a priest and that charming story he told of all of the things that unfolded afterwards. As far as I could tell, Chris, every single part of that was wrong. Yeah, this is the bit where, like, you know, if you fact check any of the segments,

you will find like just all the things are, you know, they're not always completely wrong. Like you said, there are snippets of things which are true there, but like just taking some of them. And it's the George Galloway disease of any time the endful figures. they're almost invariably wrong. So we said 30% of the world's population died from the black death. No, it didn't. That popular estimate, which you hear, is referring to Europe.

And again, it's an extrapolation, right? So it's not the world's population. It's Europe's population. And again, it's an extrapolation, right? Like, we don't know. And the next thing is that the priest, 95% died. No. The estimates put it at around 40 different.

50% right, when you focus down on clerics and priests and whatnot, which was in line with the general population rates, right? So no, there wasn't like this super high level. Now, there is a plausible thing about the last rights and people coming into contact with the plague, right, and not occurring. But there's no thing about that leading to 95. percent. And also the other thing I'll just mention is that he suggests that like the hierarchy in the Catholic Church was completely aligned with competence. Like the hierarchy goal, that was a bit that I found most, that's a bit that I found most charming, the assumption that it was a meritocracy, that the smartest guy in the village got to become the priest. And then the smartest priest

amongst the lay preachers would be promoted to be the bishop. And that's not, that's not. That's not. Don't have the church right. It might surprise you to know that a lot more was related to, you know, connections and family and level of wealth. You're kidding. All this kind of thing. No, yeah.

In the medieval times, it was mainly about Oh, gee. Take a one. My illusions, Chris. I think this is the worst one. I think this is the worst one. So his narrative, you know, that narrative for you're extrapolating from all

these like made-up figures that he has. Then he's like, and that's why standards fell and indulgences came in, right, which leads to the Reformation. Indulgences chronologically existed before the plague. So that core detail where it's like this decreasing standards led to indulgences. It's not true. Like it's wrong. Chronologically false. Indulgences existed before the fligs. So, oh. Yeah. So I guess this is why this is why I think this is legitimate fodder for Dakota

New Guas because, I mean, you know, this is light entertainment on one level. But I think it's meant to be, oh, here's some interesting, you know, general information, historical sorts of things. And at least plausible, you know, at least somewhat grounded interpretations of interesting facts about history and biology and evolution and religion and the rest. And, you know, there's so much more we could analyze and decompose that the quality across the board is kind of similar to what we've talked about here, which is that it's largely bullshit. I mean, you know, yes, scattered facts are correct, but the narrative that is sort of

put on it is just fictional, but presented as this is knowledge of a kind. Oh yeah. Yeah. Now, there's also a segment which is kind of interesting and I think speaks to the consistency that you get. So this is the kind of stuff that gets Rogan like Pinta does. Oh, you know, he's politically hard to categorize. The problem is not scientists and not medical science. So you have medical scientists that are constantly trying to figure out new ways to stop Parkinson's disease, new ways to cure cancer. All this is wonderful. But then you have the money people. How do we get this? this out there? And how do we maybe we get this out there before it's ready? Maybe you just fucking tell people it's ready when it's not. Maybe you fudge a few tests. Maybe you run some really fucking sneaky studies where you're only analyzing things in a certain very particular lens because you want them to be shown to be effective. But you go, look, you know, and I don't mind people, if someone comes up with a cure for cancer. They should profit. I don't mind. They can be

a trillionaire. But the thing is they're never satisfied. When you have a a publicly traded company. They never are satisfied. They never go, guys, we're doing great. If we just make this amount of money every year, like, that's wonderful. Let's just like, let's hang back. I think our profits are very high. Let's do good. Let's try to do the most amount of good. No, no, no corporations. So there go, you know, people, they're always like, they're never satisfied with, you know, 100 million. Imagine getting like, you know, 100 million dollars or something for some deal for making podcasts and then going on to take more advertisements and selling your partial stake in a supplement company for millions as well. They're just never satisfied Matt. These people,

they just want more money. But, you know, that's the problem. Okay, so that's a problem. Apparently, the profit motivation of these executives and pharmaceutical companies and stuff, not podcasters, they're fine. Then later. And it comes back to that agency empathy thing. Like, I'm very empathetic to oh wow that's a wow that's a your cards are not great the cards that you've been dealt are not great but they're your cards and i want to i want you to be empowered to do as much as you fucking can with those cards yeah that's like good luck a weird political ploy too to look to the wealthy people and say they're the problem they're your problem that's the thing that people will do to the proletariat right they will tell them the reason why you're in this situation today is because of these

greedy people aren't paying their share. These wealthy, if they paid their share. Like, where's it going to go, though? Is it going to go to this corrupt government that's the one who's feeding you this nonsense in the first place? What are you going to do? You're going to enrich them. They're just going to get bigger and stronger and have even more power.

And then you're even more fucked. You're even more fucked because you don't have any resources. Like, it's not going to help you. If they tax rich people and then are the poor people going to get that money? No. Are their services going to improve? No. No, no, you're just going to get more government.

It seems like a good idea. Like, maybe the solution is we've got to tax the rich people. But that's, no, you've got to figure out what to do with the money you already get from everybody. And you're not doing a good job with it. Like, that's the problem. The problem isn't like the rich people aren't paying their shit. Like, I always hear that about Elon. Like, he doesn't even pay taxes.

Elon paid more taxes in 2024 than any living human being that is ever. existed. He paid something like $10 billion in taxes. Yeah, so I guess it could be hard to classify where Rogan lives on the political spectrum. Oh, I don't think it's... I'm joke. I see. Go on. I can't believe. I was like, oh, no, that's fallen. That's gone said, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the thing. So getting back to that, so, So yeah, it's so easy for them to segue between those two things. So, like, we see this with Sabina as well. They're talking about these disgusting motivations of scientists, right?

They're just out there for the grand money and so on. And all the anti-vaxes are like just the terrible motivations of anyone involved in the pharmaceutical industry. Because it's the point, you know, they'll do anything to fake the data and release harmful things because this is all about... Oh, Joe Rogan says that too, yeah. Yeah, he does. He does. And like that ultra-paranoid, ultra-suspicious lens, because there's obviously some truth and all of that,

a tiny bit of truth and all of that. But that lens has never turned back on themselves. Well, as you said, Rogan is cut in deals for hundreds of millions of dollars every few years. He is very rich and is clearly making many decisions geared towards making himself richer as much as he can. He was involved in a settlement company, right? that was sold to like a transnational company for, you know, whatever, tens of millions,

who knows. That's right. He was an early investor and a prominent promoter of that supplements company. And yet, yet his motivations as a podcaster are perfectly fine. There's no way that affects anything he's doing. Orio on Musk's for that matter. No, pure as the difference. So it's only when you get involved in vaccines or if you're a scientist,

If you're on a YouTube creator like Sabina, that doesn't affect her stance at all. No, no, it's only the scientists who might need grant money who have these conflicts of interest. So, yeah, it does bug me. When Brogan's talking about corruption and government, then all that, and do you think they'll actually reallocate stuff around taxes? So obnoxious. It's such bullshit. It's not imagining the Trump administration.

Like he's imagining Democrats, right? Well, I think to be fair is it's like that libertarian type of thing. They imagine all governments are like that. But it's still absolute bullshit, right? Because you can just look at the accounting of where the revenues for governments go. It doesn't matter which one. Take any government. It's true for the Australian one or true for the American one.

And, you know, yes, there's a bit of bureaucracy involved. But the vast majority of it is actually direct payments for Social Security, for pensions, for Veterans Affairs, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's why Elon Musk, his famous, you know, scythe cutting through the thing and all these savings, there was virtually nothing to save because the vast majority of expenditures are actually going. So those taxes on rich people,

like the money is going to people who are much poorer. It's an accounting fact. So, yeah, that does get me. Well, there's something you might not know or remember, but Jimmy Carr was involved with a time. tax scandal for avoiding paid taxes. So, like, here, Rogan is kind of saying, you know, they're all

saying tax the wealthy, the wealthy aren't paid it off. And he said, yeah, the wealthy aren't paying off. They're paying more. But he's talking to someone who had a scandal for like tax avoidance, right? And Jimmy Korn notices this, right? Obviously he noticed this when this comes up and he kind of flags it.

What happened, Jimmy? I don't know. I was in like some accountant said to me, do you want oh, there's like a tax scheme. You want to be in a tax scheme? And I went, yeah, okay. Like, stupid. Oh, did you know it was not legit? Oh, no, it was legit. It was all legal.

It was tax avoidance, not tax evasion. There's a difference. And the difference is about 18 months in prison. So, thankfully, I came down on the right fucking side of that. How much did you wind up owing? Oh, it was, it was enough. It was enough to go, oh, put the tour in. Great, we're going on the road.

Wow. We are, yeah, we're in trouble. So you tried to avoid paying a percentage that was, do yeah yeah pretty dumb they they put people in jail in America they make a yeah they make a big thing out of it they put Wesley Snipes the woman from the Fugis Lauren Hill they put her in jail was it they put people in jail even if you pay them they're like nope not good enough you're going to jail like just the only time when you owe money and you pay the money back you still go to jail they want

to make a example out of you pay your fucking taxes There's something so on the nose about Joe Rogan, who's worth hundreds of millions of dollars, and Judy Carr, here is probably not worth anywhere near as much, but would still be probably really quite wealthy, and who is doing his best to avoid the taxes to an extent of having to be invest again and stuff like that, like just agreeing to each other and just like go, what, you know, what, you want to tax rich people? You know, there's no point.

Forget about it. What a stupid idea. Of course, it sounds like taxing rich people would be a good idea, but it's so stupid. It's never going to happen. They're just going to waste that money. Don't even think about that. Yeah. It's so it's, I know, I know.

And on top of that, Matt, so you've got that stuff about, you know, the tax avoidance and the hypocrisy. And it links in, as you'd imagine, to the usual anti-immigrant stuff. To be really cynical, I think there's a. certain percentage of our government that wants to keep people in turmoil and in strife, because they're easier to manage. And I think the more people become successful and the more people become, you know, completely free to do what they choose. And they no longer have financial burdens, so they're not afraid to speak their mind and they can kind of like explore different things. I don't know if that's like a conspiracy or is that.

emergent. It's natural. The system that we have, there's a, there's a bug in it where that's how it looks. It looks like they're, there's a, they're doing that. And you go, well, that's just the system's doing that somehow. So we need to adjust the system a little bit. It needs like a little bit. It's openly discussed that one of the reasons why they let people across the border is that we need cheap labor. This was discussed by top Democrat politicians. No, that's, that's the Republicans in the 80s. Yes. When NAFTA got signed. So that was a Republican policy to let people across the border. And it destroyed, destroyed. The working man. Destroyed the working man. And you go, yeah, cheaper products. Yeah, but at what cost? Destroyed manufacturing in the United States. Destroyed Flint, Michigan.

Destroyed. Roger and me is a great documentary about that. But that is 100% true. That is exactly what happened. And that is a real problem. And that's a problem that when you allow people to make enormous amounts of money at the expense of millions of fuels, fucking future. Matt, like, you see the inconsistency.

Now, people getting large sums of money and using low-income workers or whatever, this is stealing the future from the factory workers in Michigan or whatever. The working. Yeah, like, so what was all that stuff before about, you know, Elon or the millionaires or, you know, the money will just be. But this is the classic, this is the classic kind of hard, right, position, right? they're for the working man but they're not going to be you can't help the working man through taxation you know what I mean no no no you know that the working man is threatened by by immigrants and and other things so it's a it's a classic trope yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah anyway that's it

well and and just the round off Matt the last last two clips just classics of the joe rogen genre so as we heard jimmy card bring up COVID earlier and he doesn't miss that trick. They don't stay on it for too long, but they do manage to get to anti-vaccine stuff because of course they do. Yeah, well, it's way worse than it was a concerted effort that was coordinated

and you could follow the paper trail now. Like what used to be a conspiracy theory is now just facts. Like, you know, there was one thing that came out where The difference between a conspiracy theory and a fact is five years now. Find out who did. It was Yale. Yale did a study before the vaccine was even released where they were running the effects of shaming people to try to coerce them into taking a medication to decrease vaccine hesitancy. And I think they were running terms like trust the system.

science it's it's crazy because it's the it's the baby in the bathwater because they did that and then you go and then there's there's going to be more measles in america and more kids wearing glasses that thick and going deaf from measles because they're not taking the good vaccine so it's it's for me it's like that idea of trust is such a you know when we talk about institutions and the constitution and the and checks and balances and we we need trust in our society That's one of the great things that came out of, again, that's the Catholic Church. Well, the real problem in this country when it comes to things like vaccines is we have narratives. And we either have narratives that all of them are bad, or we have narratives of them all of them are good and trusting the science.

We have these, it gets strange. And then when the real problem in this country happened, when they absolved all pharmaceutical drug companies from any sort of liability for vaccines. and they did that because vaccines have side effects, even if they are effective. They have side effects. It's part of the good and bad about them. Yeah, yeah. I felt like Jimmy Car was getting into dangerous territory there,

suggesting to Joe Rogan. Oh, there were good vaccines. There are good vaccines like the measles vaccine. I don't know if he's got the most updated talking points about that because I think the measles vaccine is only okay If it's like separated out, right, across three doses, that's the most up-to-date talking point. But yeah, you did hear Joe say,

but then he goes on to do, you know, exactly that with the rhetoric himself, like saying, you know, it's just recognizing there's, you know, like everything, Matt, there's good and bad things. You know, there's bad vaccines and good vaccines. And you're not allowed to talk about the bad vaccines. and all that stuff

of why they kind of very common he complains about narratives while he recapitulates every anti-vaccine talking point under the sun, right? Yeah, yeah. Tell me people to to trust scientists is a narrative, but none of those

anti-vax ones are. Of course. And that study which he reads in this incredibly conspiratorial way that it was this Yale study was instrumental in, you know, figuring out whales to shame people and stuff and to forcing them to take vaccines. And, you know, it was just one slightly odd study. But ultimately, it was just about how to persuasion

messages. They were testing a bunch of persuasion of messages for, you know, advising people to take the COVID-19 vaccine. This is research that I've done. I've looked at exactly this kind of thing. What kind of messaging can be effective in gambling problems and even for for vaccines? vaccines as well. And so they tested a bunch of different things and they found that the most effective one was just, what was it, community interest. The community interest message was the best. But yeah, for Joe, things like that just feed into his generalized, all-embracing conspiracy about vaccines. So, yeah, well, not surprising that Joe Rogan brought that up and not surprising that Jimmy Carr would really not push back and find a way to go along with it.

You don't push back on Rogan about vaccines, right? If you want to be invited back, just chefs. She'd could speak to that. But yeah, in any case, Matt, there's more. During the Reagan administration, he gave them blanket immunity. And then they started doing things like prescribing hepatitis B shots to babies, which doesn't make any fucking sense. It's a sexually transmitted disease. You get from dirty needles and sex and you're giving that vaccine to babies and it's kind of dangerous. And they did it because

people weren't taking it. And so then you get a thing where you're just trying to profit more and because you have this blanket immunity, you're taking advantage of this position, which is what corporations do. Yeah, I mean, they're motivated by profit. Here's the simple solution, like super simple. Ban advertising for medications. It's only, it's New Zealand and America that allow pharmaceuticals to be advertised. 100%. And you go, well, what are we doing? Why, that's, it's unnecessary. Well, the real dark part of that is not that people get influenced to try these medications or to trust in these medications because of the advertisement. The real problem is it's such an immense part of the network's revenue that they will no longer do investigations on vaccine

side effects or pharmaceutical drug side effects or do stories about things like Vioxx that get old from the market for killing 50,000 plus people. We've got to motivate those companies, right? It can't just be the profit. The anti-vaccine stuff goes on and gets tied into the pharmacy stuff, right, anti-pharmaceutical stuff. And yeah, and it's very topical right now with the, a MAHA movement and them putting out recommendations that people in America don't get vaccinated

for a whole bunch of like childhood vaccines and so on. So, you know, but those people in power, Matt, that's not the kind of people you should be suspicious of, right? RFK Jr. and whatnot. It's just the medical industry and the scientists. Those are the ones with the adverse motives. Yeah, at any government that wants to put higher, taxes on rich people. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, of course, don't trust them either. Yeah, and so, you know, I think we've covered the meat that we'll get out of this. There are other things.

And there are some clips where like Jimmy Carr, well, maybe just to finish with, just to note that there is a difference between Jimmy Carr and Rogan because despite Jimmy Carr being a fairly standard, I would say like an English conservative now. He has a section where he kind of goes through the benefits of colonialism as well, right? Okay, so there's the UK, there's US, there's Canada, there's Australia. Okay, they're all, I mean, ex-British colonies. Yeah, I'll take the win. But those institutions, those institutions are set up in a certain way that's allowed of flourishing where people want to come here.

Yeah. So either we accept 9 billion people into our countries or we export our institutions. I think we should be writing or coming up with great constitutions for nations that we want to see in the future. You and I think very much alike. I've said the same thing. I said the thing the highlight when people are talking about immigration into this country. one of the big ones is wouldn't you do this if you were in another world? Of course, of course I would.

If I lived in the third world country and I had a chance to make a better life and come to America, 100% I would do it. But the real question is, why is it so bad over there? And what can we do to make that better? Instead of bringing them in here to make their lives better. He's still a British conservative, right? So he doesn't have the same hangups that the Americans do. So, for instance, you hear him, not that he dwells on this much, but he does say this.

Socialism has become such a dirty word. But everyone agrees to some extent, right? There's areas of life where you go, well, there has to be a level of socialism. Contribution. We have to contribute. Okay, the fire service is great. I use the same one all the time. But everyone agrees, right?

Okay, if your house burns down, okay, we're going to have a fire service. and it comes and it's not like, oh, we don't take care of that. Public education. So, you know, you might be surprised where that ends up. Well, you wouldn't be surprised. Like, Joe Morgan justifying why the Trump administration is destroying the Department of Education or whatnot. But just to point out, there are those segments in it where, you know, Jimmy Card argues

for the utility of like public health services and so on, right? because it's British. Yeah. That's right. Like even a British Tory is not like that rampant paleocon or extreme neocon that you might get in the United States. But thinks all of that is a waste of money. Everything should be user pay as small government, yada, yada, yada.

Yeah. That's not an English story, right? Yeah. So, you know, I'm still not a fan of Jimmy Car, but I'm just pointing out that is for Rocky Lance. Oh, look, I am very, very much not a fan of Jimmy Car. I wasn't defeated Jimmy Carr forever. And this has just made me less of a fan.

But, I mean, he's in his defense. He's not as bad as Joe Rogan. Like, he's not as... No. He's such a low bar. But he's just not on the same level. He'll happily go along with it because he's not, he's not stupid. He's not going to disagree with Joe Rogan on his podcast.

Yeah, and he's just very lazy and not very good at facts or history or science or any of those things. right? You shouldn't listen to him. I'd get his opinion on anything really, except maybe how to do stand-up comedy, I suppose. But he doesn't seem as mental as Joe Rogan. Yeah, yeah. Well, so there we go. There's the credit we can give him at the end. But for round-up thoughts, Matt, do you have any you'd like the offer or would you like me to go first? I think I'm going to be quick, actually, because, yeah, you know, we covered Jimmy Carb. You know, they're not They're not all massive hits on the Gorometer, I think. I think someone like Ian McGilchrist, for instance, we covered recently,

was a surprising and interesting case study in somebody who was very, very good at appearing and presenting themselves as something while actually being an empty shell, in my opinion. Ginny Carr comes across as a bit of an empty shell. You know, he comes across as a, you know, a middle-aged, conservative English bloke who was talking off the top of his head with random stuff that he half remembers dispensing little pearls of wisdom and homespun truths, most of which are not reliable. And that's kind of, you know, it's not very exceptional, I suppose. It's kind of thing

your uncle might do, or someone like me, if I was a bit lazier. Well, to me, like the main thing is this is just very illustrative of the modern podcast ecosystem. This is what it is. Comedians and online pundits and political figures and whatnot. And they're engaged in mutual sycifancy. That's a big component of it is pandering to the other person talking about how they're important they are. And then presenting factoid or pop science to, you know,

all these big extrapolations, which almost always, in this ecosphere, go towards justifying right-wing politics and anti-vaccine policies or whatever the case might be. It's very rarely that these disembodied anecdotes end up contradicting popular narratives in Magath, for example. So it's just like you can put all of the things in this conversation into those like three categories. Is Jimmy Carr trying to ingreciate himself of Brogan?

Is he misrepresenting or overstating some historical or pop science factoid? Or is he offering a right-wing political tag dressed up as common sense? And it's basically those three things played at ad nauseum. Jimmy Carr has his particular spin and is leaning into like pseudo-profundity and philosophical reflections on things. but those three categories just crop up in all of these conversations all the time and Jimmy Carr is not in any sense remarkable in the way that he employs them so it's just you know it's good to check in from time to time this is what's going on in Rogan's podcast it's

what goes on all the time and this is his bread and butter yeah that's that's right I think the broader point too is that if you get someone on like if the content you're consuming involves people who are just complete generalists, like for one of the better words, you know, just random personalities. Like Jimmy Carr and Joe Rogan, what are they qualified in? They're qualified in talking off the cuff, probably, if you had to name their expertise. And if you get random people's opinions about the life, the universe and everything, all the stuff that we covered in this episode, and they have put no effort into thinking through what is

they're talking about. They're literally doing off the cuff. then the information you're going to get is going to be really, really bad. If you're really lucky, it might be vaguely entertaining, but that will be it. So it just sort of confirms the advice that I've been repeating a lot, really, which is that there's heaps of great material online. And one of your best heuristics, if you're actually interested in getting good information or knowledge or whatever you want to describe it, is go to specialists.

And, you know, they don't have to be from a fancy university or anything like that. They can be an Uber geek who is just really, really passionate about this particular topic and is producing material on that topic. Like, they will give you a good understanding of whatever, like the medieval church or evolution and displays or vaccines or virology. You have to go to people that know what they're talking about. If you go to something like this, the quality of information is just always going to be really, really bad. Yeah, yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Well, there we go, Matt. Jimmy Carr in the

rearview mirror. Thank God. I don't want to listen to Joe Rogan, talk to anyone else for a while. Do you think Jimmy Carrow, just to check, Chris, do you think he would light up the garrometer? Mike got feeling there's no, but I've been wrong before. Well, I mean, we'll find out. We have to enter him. But I think he's trending in that direction. And the more that he spends time pontificating on podcast the more that you will find out. I wouldn't be surprised to see him do a course on comedy via

evil site for Peterson Academy or something like that, right? Or sense maker, whatever, you know, dialogue us meeting. So, I mean, he's not up there yet, but I think he has pretensions. It seems like it's a potential secondary career

for former comedians, right, to move into this. Cundit sphere. Punditry. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Well, the hope springs eternal. Let's find out.

Now, Matt, lastly, just briefly, shall we shout out the patrons? If they're still here, they deserve some recognition for sticking it through to the end of this one. Let the outshouting commence. I say be sure. Okay. Okay.

Well, I'm going to shout out Galaxy green guru. That's what I'm going to do for this episode. I've decided to focus on them. This is their like a little special thing, right? The ones that can access the live hangouts per month and all that kind of thing. And we do have another two of them due to come up soon. So a good time to be in that tier.

But amongst them we have Edent Bart Cornell, Dr. B., Jolene, Edwin Ivana Sarkas, Jason O'Hara, Matt in Tokyo, Derek, Nika Gamkredlatsi, Christopher L. Tritch, Dan Todd, Jake Tobiasen, Kelly, the chicky Irish woman, Ifi Donatello, the cheeky Marxist, Jay, Bryce F, and Jake Lawrence. Those are Galaxy Wing Gurus. And some people I know from the Patreon, you know, discussion boards and so on. Yeah, the hang out. Both. Both things. So, yeah, so thank you. If you don't have to turn all the pesky.

Yes. That looks like Pesky Mills found. I know. Yeah, they're a little scared. Do you get that if he, you know that? Yeah. Yeah, that's a... He's a character, Matt.

He's a character. That's the way, yeah. Is that positive or negative? Is it good or bad to be a character? He's good. Isn't it? Yeah, on the balance. Yeah, Chris likes to be challenged.

That's right. Yeah, and I'll look at your drum members. So there you go. Join if you want to be challenged. It's almost inevitable. All right, here you go. Hello there, you awakening wonders. You may not be aware that your entire reality is being manipulated.

Become part of our community or free speakers. We are still allowed to say stuff like this. Science is failing. It's failing right in front of our eyes and no one's doing anything about it. I'm a shill for no one. More than that, I just simply refuse. to be caught in any one single echo chamber. In the end, like many of us must, I walk alone.

Nice like staying. Yeah. Sorry, Jimmy Carr, you're just not on that level yet. None of those. Yeah, he does not compare to any of those. So, well, get back to your comic stand-up. Yeah, that's a better place in general. Or pontificating podcast all you want,

but you don't have to tie it in the right-link cultics all the time. come on get some new material like it's been done yeah that's hard it's been done it's a it's a crowded field try it into some other random thing that you're into yeah i mean the the dangers out too race science whatever but yes something positive there's something positive or benign and not rogan shape and that's that matt that's that yeah jimmie car goodbye next girl coming um Not from the Rogan sphere. That's what we're agreed on, right? 100%. 100%. Something to entice. Something to excite. Surprise. Something different.

Something different. All right, Matt. Cheerie. Bye. Okay. Bye down.