Decoding the Gurus - Mel Robbins, Part 1: The Hard Science of Manifestation

Episode Date: August 25, 2026

Are you tired, stuck, or inconveniently constrained by reality? Good news: you may simply be imagining the wrong one.In Part One of our decoding of Mel Robbins, we explore the world of a self-help mogul who is also just a simple mother of three in Vermont hosting a little ol' podcast with a HUGE global impact. Together with Cassandra Vieten, a psychologist who is (apparently) one of the world's leading researchers on imagination and consciousness, Mel explains how to begin to stop reacting and start imagining, visualising, and manifesting the life you truly deserve. This will lead to self-actualised transcendence through a variety of simple-to-implement techniques. But don't worry, the universe has also put in safeguards: manifestation only works if you use it for good, such as empowering your authentic self. So please manifest enthusiastically without any concern.In the episode, you will learn about the delicate art of rebranding common sense into complex (proprietary) theories and be shocked to discover that mystical intuitions are a core component of any fully holistic scientific research. Mel's HUGE media business, meanwhile, manifests itself as an intimate personal friendship with each of her millions of listeners.Expect the usual decorative scholarship, a new Five Second Rule and insights into how to Let Them and Let You, reality tunnels, obstacle courses, a thousand supportive women, lighthouses, tapestries, and the therapeutic potential of fire-breathing dragons. All of it is very hard science, as they repeatedly remind us.Chris and Matt attempt throughout to give the self-help genre a fair-minded assessment. They even concede that wearing colourful socks and being a bit less miserable are probably harmless, but ultimately their dark reductionist souls are beyond salvation.Part Two is coming next week. In the meantime, try to visualise it clearly, align your energy, and not to put one foot on the brake as you hit the download button.LinksThe Mel Robbins Podcast: “World Leading Psychologist: How to Manifest Anything & Create the Life You Want” with Dr Cassandra VietenA Bit Fruity with Matt Bernstein: “The Mel Robbins Griftpocalypse” with Princess Weekes and Kat TenbargeCBS News: Extended Interview with Mel RobbinsThe Mel Robbins Podcast: “Try It for 1 Week: 6 Small Ways to Bring Back the Happiness, Energy, and Fun”The New York Times: “Mel Schneeberger and Chris Robbins” by Lois Smith BradyUC San Diego profile: Cassandra Vieten, PhD

Hello and welcome to the coding the gurus, the podcast where a psychologist and an anthropologist listen to the greatest minds the internet has to offer. And we try to understand what they're talking about. Matthew Brown, you're conventionally instantiated flesh and blood co-host. And with me, as the results of apparently distal, non-local, active, focused intention, is my co-host, Chris Kavanaugh. Chris Kavanaugh. Wow.

Well done, Chris. Well, well done. Thank you for beaming yourself into my consciousness this afternoon. To pull back the curtain, Matt said he was going to try something different with this instruction. And I did. I did. I did try something different. I did.

Never innovate. Never innovate. People will always try to, you know, things and arrows. They'll try to take you down just because you're trying to be different. You need to imagine. you know, a better outcome from it. You didn't visualize. That's where I went wrong.

That's where I went wrong. I should have imagined an introduction going well and then that would have come to be. That's it. But this is topical. That's a little preview, Matt. That's a little preview, yeah. That's right.

This may seem whimsical and undirected to the casual listener. But in fact, everything we are referring to is very topical, isn't it, Chris? That's right, because we're going to, cover today. Well, primarily Mill Robbins, but it's actually a double bill, really, because Mel Robbins was suggested, and she's kind of in the self-help ovary. And when we were looking for episodes, you know, we like to, in general, try to find recent episodes. And you noticed that one of her most recent episodes was talking with a psychologist about the science of manifestation and imagination.

The title was how to manifest anything and create the life you want. And the person being interviewed is Dr. Cassandra Beaton, who is talking about imagination and manifesting. So there's going to be quite a lot of her showing up in this decoding, which I think is actually okay, Matt, because this is quite representative of the self-help genre. and Mel Robbins output overall. She is primarily a bit like Oprah Winfrey, somebody who interviews other people.

She does have her own self-help, empower and books and little slogans and whatnot that we'll get to. But I watched a couple of other episodes and some interviews with Mel Robbins, and this is fairly representative of her output, at least from my cursory, scoury, of her material. Yeah, yeah.

And I think Mel Robbins and her guest, Cassandra Vietin, if I've said that right, there are certainly birds of a feather too. I think many of the critiques that we've got of one would be shared with the other. So, yeah, it's a too far. That's all right. We can do two at once. We can do it all. That's right.

But I will say, I want to add in, you know, like Chris Williamson style this team at the start, because we're covering this interview. and it's fair to say we're likely to be a bit snippy. Speak for yourself, Chris. Speak for yourself. We'll see. But, you know, self-actualization, self-help, it's not our bag, man. And this is very much what this interview is about.

But I did want to say when I was looking around for other content and interviews with her and whatnot, I came across two things. One was an interview with CBS, where she's talking about her own. work. And then there was a monologue episode of her own podcast, which was like six small ways to bring back the happiness energy and fun. Now, you might think, Matt, well, Chris, you would hate that. You would not enjoy somebody giving you six small tips about how to be more fun. And to a certain extent, you'd be right. I think you should listen to those tips and try to take all of them on board, Chris, I would be the first to support that.

Here's the thing, though, Matt. That video is from my assessment, probably the most authentic version of her, because it's like a nearly 40-minute episode, but it's her talking about little tips that she thinks, you know, makes your life more like fun and zini. And it's mostly based around she was invited

to a golf partner golf tournament. She doesn't really know how to play golf, but it was like a fiend one where you're supposed to come dressed up. And only her and a couple of other people came in costumes. And she basically frames it as like, it was much more fun for the people who did that. And it didn't matter that she was terrible at golf. Now, here's the interesting part. There were probably a hundred people who played in this tournament. There were maybe 12 of us who dressed up.

And I'm going to go on the record and say, the 12 of us who dressed up and the eight of us in our group in particular had way more fun in that tournament than the people who didn't. I'm going to tell you why. Because when you're in a costume and you are bringing the fun, you don't take anything that seriously. You have fun. And the question is, so why wouldn't everybody dress up? Like why? How often in your adult life do you get to put on a funny costume? How often do you get to wear something? You would never normally wear it. You're not going to walk into work in an evil-knievel costume. Maybe you should.

Maybe you should mix things up. But all of the other five-uller little tips about having fun, they're very much along those lines. The things like wear, you know, colorful socks. During the video, she takes off her black glasses and puts on like pink dresses and it's like, these are fun, right? That's fun. That's fun.

In fact, I'm going to do it right now. I'm going to take off my black 19-3. 70s engineering glasses, and I'm going to put on my fun pink glasses, right? I know you can't see them if you're listening. If you're watching on YouTube right now, I'm thrilled to be here with you, and you can see me in my pink aviator glasses. These are neon pink glasses in the aviator shape. I love these glasses. And I know a bazillion people are not going to ask me who makes these glasses. I'm not sure who makes these glasses, but I'm sure we'll put it in the caption because so many of you're going to ask and you're going to crash the inbox, which wouldn't be that fun. But

could be kind of fun. But anyway, you might be thinking, Mel, what do you mean wear the pink glasses? Well, this is a habit for how you can think about inserting fun right now today. I'm talking about one small fun change. I put on the pink glasses, don't I look like I'm having more fun? Aren't the pink glasses just kind of fun? Do you see how easy that is? Fun doesn't have to be some big production. You don't necessarily have to dress up in a costume. to have fun, just putting on glasses that are different can be fun. Wearing socks that are different can be fun. Being a little chatier, a little more energizing, telling a funny story before a meeting can

be more fun. She talks about somebody in the office who gets people to do hands dance and all these kind of like fun things. That's fun. I'll give you another example. We have somebody in our office who's constantly challenging people in the office to do things like handstands, headstands, talking about like the jiu-jitsu moves. There's constantly somebody doing something in the office, and it makes it so

much more fun. And she's arguing that it's better to live your life that way and like, don't care if you're cringy, just dance like no one's watching and those kinds of stuff. And all of the references are like upper class slash upper middle class, white American woman, right? Not that there's anything wrong with that. No, well, all I was going to say was, to me, there's a temptation, math, to make fun of that. But I don't think there's actually anything wrong. Like, it's not my taste regarding, like, wearing zini socks as a fun thing. Like, it comes across, the cruel word to use would be, like, basic, right?

But I also think that, you know, if you are reading Warhammer 40K novels, or if you're, reading like mystery thrillers or watching murder she wrote or these kind of things. There's plenty of people that enjoy all sorts of little things, right? And I think the self-help genre, it is more popular with women. And there is, and I remember where the core demographic here, I think, is like middle-class white women. And she's speaking to things that they enjoy. I'm not saying all middle-class white women. I'm just saying, you know, these are popular within that category. And I think sneering at it is just the same as like sneering at any other group

with like troops. And yeah, it's kind of like it's not my subculture. I absolutely can sneer it. I don't would be, you know, I would enjoy doing it. But what's better than that versus some other subculture, right? There's kind of like a tendency to feel it's okay to poke fun, at white middle class people or older women hobbies. And I felt that video, for all its cringiness to me,

she came across as like actually genuine. That's what she wants to do. And she was telling people about little ways that they could have more fun in their life. And there's no harm in it. Yeah, yeah. Now, I was thinking that as well, which is that, you know,

we could well come across here as a pair of rationalist pros, cynical barsers that we are. And these women are in our cross-site. They have the temerity to want to help other ladies with their telling them. Well, they do talk mainly about women, I noticed. They talked about the clients being women or reaching out and imagining a group of other women, supporting them and stuff. So anyway, but maybe there's some men's sprinkled of them there, sure.

And, you know, like you said, recommending fun things like colorful socks. But then I thought about the last thing that we covered, which is Joe Rogan and Jimmy Carr, and we have the, you know, like anti-vax, for instance. And when you have colorful socks on one hand and anti-vax on the other, yeah, let's get things in proportion, shall we? This is right. There are, however, multi-level models and various exploitative conmen and con-women there are expensive courses and whatnot. So it's not a better route is. But I think actually in the same way, it's kind of like insofar as Joe Rogan is just a guy sitting in a room talking, into other guys about martial arts

and what his favorite type of knife is. To me, it comes across as kind of cringy, but people liking that whatever, right? Yeah, actually. People would sound the stuff I like cringy. Well, this preamble is getting out of control, but the one last thing that, since you mentioned Joe Rogan, is maybe you do this as well when we listen to the clips again, Chris,

but when I was listen to some of the self-help, it's very much feminine coded. And as you said, white, little class, whatever. But I was sort of imagining also if some of that advice was sort of transcoded into like Joe Rogan talk or... Oh, yeah, it would be super popular. Yeah, amongst them. And I realize that you actually can. I won't do it now, but pay attention to it when it comes up.

You'll notice that some of that advice, you can take out some of the goddesses dancing magical language and replace it with just different words. But the basic message amounts to the same thing. So that'll be a fun exercise for a listener to, I think. Yeah, yeah. So we are going to make fun of it. Yeah, we will. I'm just saying, like, you could take out the bits of Rogan getting excited about his new stage knife.

And yes, we can make fun of that. But, you know, you can make fun of Middle East people, Wolverine or whatever the case might be. But there are deeper issues, too. So just bear that in mind. But let's move on to actual clip. So Mel Robbins, I looked into her backstory as well, and she has quite a varied career. She started off as like a public defender. And then she moved into punditry, kind of being a legal pundit or like a talking head on the media for various lefty media, CNN or whatever, you know, like these kind of shows.

She had short-lived talk shows. And she also went into the... life coaching and then became a self-help offer. So she's had many hands, but it's all media focused and all around like creating a kind of public profile around her as a media figure. So it's fair to say that's what she's wanted to do ever since she stopped being a public defender. And that was a relatively short career as well.

So whenever she's given her narrative, she often presents it but like, you know, this wasn't a goal for her to become this best-selling of her. But like by all clear indications, it was like she was just trying to find something that sticks. And she could have been like an Oprah Winfrey style host or a celebrity life coach. And she basically has ended up in that as a quite famous self-help of her slash podcaster. And the other thing about it is just like Matthew McConae, just like all the other people that recover, their self-mythalphal. apologising is off the scales and not very accurate. So they, you know, they always have these kind of ragged the riches stories.

And she is no different than this. She kind of presents it, you know, she was struggling and, and then found a way through her dint of effort to make money and be successful and so on. But there's another podcast called A Bitfordy with Matt Bernstein. And it does critical evaluations. of various gurus and grifters, a bit like behind the bastards and come and rip the same progressive lens, right?

But they pointed out, and I found this, that like she presents it that, you know, when she met her husband, they were living in very modest surroundings and they didn't have much growing up and all this kind of thing. But there's a New York Times story from 1996 covering her wedding.

She was called Mel Schneeberger at the time. and it's talking about them meeting at a black tie party at the Puck building where she met Christopher Robbins, Tracix, the founder of a marketing company called the Hickory Group. So they met at like a black tie event, right? And the wedding is being covered in the New York Times. The description of the wedding was that it was performed in the, a bride's family home, a large grey clapboard house on Bear Lake in North Muskergan, Michigan. The wedding was performed on the tennis court by the Reverend Glenn Wagner, right?

So like, I feel like if you're someone with a tennis court on your house, you probably didn't grow up with that much struggle. So it's not that important for what we're about to cover, but just in the self-help world, there's always this rags the riches story with people. And in her case, it's very much inaccurate, ma. Would you believe that? A bit banged on, I'm sure. Yeah, I guess it makes sense, right?

If you're selling self-help, you're often selling that to people who would like to transform their lives, often in the material sense. So it doesn't help. It doesn't help if you started off, well-off and comfortable. And you're still well-off and comfortable now. It's much better to have actually... You're more well-off. Yeah, and in this other CBS interview, she was asked to present herself. And it actually highlights that kind of, oh, I'm just a simple country chicken, right?

But combined with the, let's say you detect the note of silver cramp as it that accompanied so, you know, this is the interviewer describing Mel Robbins and her responding. I think one of the really spectacular and inspiring things about you for many women is that your kids are now grown, you're 57, people know you as an author and a podcaster, but you're also a bad business woman. Yeah. I mean, this is a business, Mel. Oh, yeah. This is a big business. It is.

Just, I mean, explain what that is, what Mel Inc. is. It's a lot. You do work for corporations. Yes. We have grown over the last decade. from really more of a corporate focused business where I would be speaking at massive conferences for big Fortune 100 companies, moving into then corporate training programs, into creating content for corporations like Starbucks, JPMorgan, LinkedIn.

We have a big partnership with Audible where we've created six different titles for them, audio series, built courses for LinkedIn. I mean, it just, Mel, you're a media mogul now. Well, I don't really feel. I feel like I'm a mother of three that lives in Vermont that hosts a podcast that makes a huge global impact. But here's what I love about what I do. I love the stinger at the end of that one.

I'm just a simple mother of three in Vermont that hosts a podcast that has a global impact. It's huge global impact. Yeah, I was. But you, and you heard all. of corporate stuff. Yeah. I mean, that was almost refreshing in a way because, and you hear it sometimes from other influences as well, which is they'll often talk quite frankly about the very, very much business that they are running, that they are focused on doing, which from what you described there, sounds a lot like, you know, painting the sort of happy, smiley faces over the corporate

that immoral empty shell there which yeah i can see that there's money in that corporate consultants do similar things but you know quite upfront about that and yet the listener at other times would be led to believe that this episode Mel Robbins et al talking to you personally all they want all they want is to help you become all you can be they love each and every one of you individually and care about you individually that's what's driving them. But at other times, you know, like the marsh doesn't slip, the master's just like taken off and throw it on the corner and they talk quite frankly about this is a business. I think they don't see it as a contradiction because in their understanding of it, it's her

being successful because she's helping so many other people, right? Yes. So it's like, you know, win-win situation. But it did remind me of Scott Galloway. You know, the way he talks about this podcast and advertising and stuff like they're like it's primarily focused around you know the amount of money and the amount of downloads and opportunities and so on that he can get or the all all in podcast and all three of those have different vibes to them but they are fundamentally about the same metrics but for me scott galloway is slightly different because he doesn't pretend to be doing anything else. Like he doesn't tell everyone that he loves them or that he has got these different motivations. Don't you think his advice for young man thing is a little bit like that?

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I do. I do. Yeah, I've forgotten about that. You've ripped her out. That's different. I keep thinking about the stuff of his that I, that's right, that I typically listen to, which is basically them speculating about what's going to happen next in finance, right? It's just a bit more dry, shall we say. But yeah, you're right. He does do the other stuff. Okay.

Fair call. Fair play. Well, anyway, just a notable little thing. And she has become famous because of two things, basically. I mean, there's all that history. So I shouldn't say these are the only two things. But her kind of big breakout into, you know, multimillionaire territory is based on two things. One is the five second rule.

Now, the five second rule is when you drops a link on the floor, you you've got five seconds, it's still good. You can eat it within that five second window. That's one of the thing. She wrote a whole book about that and, you know, talking about the microorganisms and how they can't get a grasp of it. I can't jump on. I can't jump on.

The reaction time of the microorganisms on the floor is like seven seconds or so. So if you're quick, you'll get it before they do. That's where I think of it. Yeah, no, it's not that. Although that is the five second rule that I know as well. Her five second rule is that to avoid procrastination or do things. you should like set a task and then count down from five and then start it. That's brilliant.

So don't say I'm going to start to learn tennis. Be like, I'm going to book a lesson in five, four. Four. You might need to go get the number and stuff then. But you know, the point is you've done the little countdown thing and stuff. And so that's the five second group. I think it's going to be very helpful for you. you know so many times i've asked you for things three or four times if you just count it down i'm

asked me to send him such and such five four three two one and then you then you do it that would make my life a lot easier i don't know about you i'm gonna say something cheeky to mat in five yeah so that's i don't think you're supposed to say i'd like i mean probably there's a whole chapter on that whether you should say idlyde or not and i'm one thing you should visualize visualize the countdown is probably the most important thing. That's right. So that's the five-second rule. And then the second one is let them. That's our more recent book. The book is called the Let Them Theory. It has over 10 million copies sold. Right. Let them do what? Let them do what? Give me the synopsis. Oh, why don't I let Mel Robbins give you the synopsis?

And people, like, I know when I felt stuck, I'm like, don't tell me to take a class. Like, my life is broken. No, what's missing is you are stagnant. And if I can get you to grow and learn in any area of your life, you start to change. Things start to loosen up and you start to see different things. And part of getting unstuck is to let them. Yes. And explain that theory.

Because I do think getting unstuck is let them. Yes. So the let them theory is the single fastest way to gain control on your life is to stop trying to control and change everybody else. And let them, let people be who they are. Let them think what they think, believe what they believe, do what they do, heal when they heal or not, and pull all the time and energy that you are currently burning through, wishing people were different, being frustrated by what's happening, trying to change everybody. let them, let them. And then focus on yourself. And when you learn to let other people be who they are,

what's fascinating about this, because it's literally stoicism, it's Buddhism, it's the serenity prayer. When you learn to just let people be who they are, you have this incredible thing happen. You recognize that probably like me, you've been living your life in reverse. You've been pouring all your energy into things you can't control, the number one thing being other people, and you've lost sight of where all the power is, which is in focusing on the let me part of the theory. Let me focus on what I think. Let me focus on what I'm going to do or not do. Let me focus on the things that I feel in processing my emotions so they don't run me over,

and then let me respond in a way that aligns with my values instead of being so emotional. emotional and stressed out all the time. Okay. So you got not just let them, you got let me for no, for extra insights. Yeah, let us, let us,

let us all. God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Chris, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. It also reminds me of the, what is it,

subtle art of not giving a fuck. You know, that was a very popular stream. There was a bunch of books. all with fuck in the title. It was very popular there for a while. By Mark Monson. Yeah, do you remember those?

That seems thematically similar. I don't think there are that many different ideas in self-help, but I think they can be construed. Repackaged. Repackaged it. Yes. Yes. Well, she there acknowledges that it's essentially an idea that is already

well-emised and commonly repeated in different philosophies and religion. although mostly in the self-help popularized versions of them. Nonetheless, she's giving credit there, which is sort of more than she has done elsewhere because there is quite good evidence that she came across this, let them phrasing via a viral poem that some person had needed.

And her initial video said, I came across this phrase today, let them. And yes, it's great. But as she subsequently retold it, It's not that she came across it. It's that she invented it. Okay. Yeah.

And that's it. But it's kind of amazing to me that this has made her into an incredibly successful and wealthy self-help offer with a giant empire. Not yet rivaling Oprah, but it's, you know, it's heavy in that direction. And it's like literally the 10 years count down from five and don't try to control all of people. people. Yeah. Yeah, but it is amazing, isn't it? And like the word theory there, because they describe those things as theories. That's a big word to describe what is basically a different or a particular phrasing to describe some homespun piece of wisdom. Like the five second rule I think is don't prevaricate, just decide to do something and then go ahead and do it, which, you know, it's not bad advice. But it's,

It's advice that has occurred in many different forms over many years, right? Yeah. This is what the vast empire is built upon, these kind of things. And just before we move into the interviewer as well, Matt, this is another thing that you see in the self-help space that, like, it's very much focused on people thinking about themselves. That's like almost in the definition. But thinking about themselves and reference.

or name-dropping fenders or ideas or philosophies. So for example. I help people imagine a bigger possibility for their lives, that I inspire people to see something bigger than where they're at. And bigger may be the wrong word. Because what's interesting is that I don't know and can't tell you what you are. what you actually want, and I don't know what's best for you. But what I do know is that if I can get you to slow down long enough

and I can get you to really think about what makes you happy, what's important to you based on your values, then that is the first step in you getting what you want. I mean, most people feel stuck, right? Stuck is the single most misunderstood human experience, and it is foundational to being a human being. And so this is the way that I think about being stuck. So Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right?

And if you don't know what that is, don't worry, I'm going to explain it real quick. Your body is wired with all this amazing natural intelligence, and it is designed to send you signals when one of your fundamental needs is missing. So, for example, when you feel tired, what's missing? Energy. Well, yeah, but you need sleep, right? Yeah, yeah. So I played that clip there.

No, you know, you've got the self-help framing about helping people to become the most self-actualized self, but also Maslow gets brought in. It can't be anything. It actually reminds me of what we were talking about with Jimmy Carr, that you like get a reference from something that you've come across. And she's like, oh, Madel, you know, if you haven't heard about it, let me explain that. Maslow's hierarchy of needs, not something that's actually scientifically valid. It's just a nice diagram. Yeah, basically a nice diagram. And I don't remember if she does go on to explain it,

but she hasn't explained it yet, right? She's talking more about your body sending you signals or something, which is, that's not it yet. I know. I mean, she would go on to explain parts of her, but also there she was trying to elicit a particular answer, and she's pretty good at her because she wanted the person to say sleep, and then she was going to get them to elicit food and shelter her and so on.

But when she asked, they said energy, And she was like, yes, like sleep. Oh, yeah, yeah. So it's just that kind of thing where you're just making decorative references to science and thinkers and so on. And we're going to see that in this episode as well, even though purportedly there is a empirical psychologist present to provide the science. Indeed, indeed. Okay, so where does the interview start? Where does it really get going?

Well, it starts with a thing which really strongly reminded me of the Dari of a CEO. hook that he begins everything with, but it's got a slightly different flavor to it. Okay, before we jump into this extraordinary episode, my team was showing me something. They brought up a lot of emotion. 58% of you who watch the Mel Robbins podcast here on YouTube are not subscribers. It would make me feel so supported, seen, and grateful if you would subscribe. If that subscribe button is lit up, it means you're not a subscriber. Will you help me achieve my goal of getting that number to 50%?

it's free. That way you're not going to miss a thing. And most importantly, it's one way that you can tell me and the team here at the Mel Robbins podcast that you love all the content that we're putting here on YouTube for free. This episode is going to be one of your all-time favorites. I can just feel it. So let's jump into it. Now, I know from the previous times that we've commented on this kind of therapy speak, which is very, very popular in certain circles in the U.S. Many people just don't know what we're talking about. But, When I hear, it would make me feel so valued, or what is it, seen and grateful. Supported, seen, and grateful. Yeah, yeah. Supported, seen and grateful. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's an interesting way to put it.

But yeah, basically, that kind of thing. Don't you want to be supportive? Don't you want to make Mel Robbins feel validated and feel more of an actualized human being? Of course you would. Click that like and subscribe button. Yeah, it's kind of interesting to me. that it's like a salesman technique because like the Darii of CEO guy

he frames it around my team have told me like an interesting fact 40% of you aren't subscribe to the channel and you know and then he frames it us I promise to do this for you let's make a deal that you subscribe and I will provide you the best conversations

and we're going to make the podcast of success together I need your help right it's like that and her version of it is it's exactly the same pitch I need you to subscribe but it's like appealing to, you know, this will help me feel validated, feel recognized for the effort. So it's like framed in a more kind of self-helpy vibe, but it's the exact same thing, which is like, here's the values we have. And I'm giving you something.

So should you give me something back? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and the underlying motivation is obviously exactly the same that they first and foremost are interested in increasing their metric. but you can't just say, I want my metrics to go up, I want my income and revenue and profile to increase. So please, you know, hit those buttons, whatever. But so it just fascinates me like the power of words and how it can be coded in any way you like. And it will always be coded in the kind of language that your audience, that your circle endorses.

So if you're the diary of the Sierra guy, you'll frame it that way. if you're into this kind of self-help and magical sorts of things, you'll frame it this way. But yeah, it's good to just strip away those words and just think about the basics of what's being said. Yeah. And if you want to hear it in terms of high goals of the eutromat, this is what you get. And thank you. Thank you for making the time to listen to something that will help you access this skill inside of. of you. You deserve a better future and using these tools, you can first start to visualize it and experience it, and that's going to help you actually create it. All right, in case nobody else tells you, I also wanted to be sure to tell you as your friend that I love you and I believe

in you. And I believe in your ability to create a better life. And maybe, just maybe, if you start visualizing the life that you want and you start allowing yourself to feel what it's going to feel like now, that's the first step to you being able to create it. I actually believe it is. Alrighty, I'll see you in the next episode. I'm going to welcome you in the moment you hit play. It's good to know that Mel Robbins loves you. Yeah. Each individual person is impressive. Like this again reminds me of the Dario of the CEO guy saying, I've got a secret to Kelly. There's a secret comp that you can join, right? But don't pill anyone else. You're like, how is this working? When,

Everybody knows this is a public video, right? He's not talking to you. He's talking to the entire audience of trying to get them to sign up to his secret club member. And here she's like, I love you. Who? Who? You love all the millions? And it's, you know.

I don't think Mel loves us. We listen to the episode. She's not going to love us. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe she would. Maybe she'd depreciate. Maybe her heart is big enough to encompass us as well. But yeah, I mean, it's ubiquitous and it is so blatant, yet it does seem to work, right?

I think it's because people have just accepted this is normal, like this is a normal thing to do. I don't know. It's podcasting 101, but it never fails to amaze me that this works. And the other thing that you get in all of this and you get it with the Dariaviti yoga as well is he's like, you're going to love this episode. This episode is great. We've prepared it. But they obviously record these things often as.

inserts. So often the references, they don't know what episodes they're talking about. So it's just another thing which speaks to the actual emptiness behind the sentiment. Well, it speaks to the business that underlies all of the fine words, right? Whether it's Diary, CEO, or Mel Robbins, or a thousand other kinds of podcasts that do this kind of thing. Like underneath it is a straight up business model, which is about attention, subscribers, clicks, and maybe people signing up for subscriptions and things like that, upselling various stuff. So the business model is right there. It's right there beneath the surface, and the language is so clearly oriented towards maximizing the business model. Lex Friedman,

of course, one of our favorites is also absolutely shameless about using this kind of parasycial emotive language in an instrumental way. And, you know, it's not the worst thing in the world. It's business. It's advertising, I suppose. But, you know, I just, I guess I don't like that people are pretending to be doing something different from what it is they are actually doing. Okay. So in regards, the current podcast on how it opens, and why do we just start with the introduction? I am thrilled that you're here. The subject of your research is so fascinating. And what I want to start with is what could change about my life. If I take everything to heart that you're about to teach us about the power of our imagination, visualization, manifestation, consciousness, if I apply everything you're about to teach me, what could change?

Well, I mean, I think it's a couple of things. One is that you become the author of your life. You become the person who creates the world that you want to live in. And the second is sometimes you'll hear the phrase, the magic is gone from a relationship or from a job or something. I really believe in imagination's power to bring the magic back into your life. And I don't mean magic in a fake sense. I mean the vitality, the awe, the wonder, the mystery, the beauty, just the fun parts of life, the spices that make life so interesting and bring back that curiosity. I love that. I want to put a giant highlighter on what you just said. The power of

your imagination to bring magic back into your life. Yeah. That's not what you're going to get from this podcast, Mark. From our podcast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we can't promise that. We can't deliver on that.

But that sounds fantastic. That sounds great. It sounds like if you put the techniques into practice, a lot of things are going to change. A lot of things are going to change for you. All for the better. and not so shy about making big about how dramatically you could improve your life

from this single podcast or at least, you know, the techniques in this single podcast, sorry. That's what. I mean, you need to put in the work, Chris. But, yeah, I mean, look, it's a recurrent thing with our gurus, right? You have to have 100% confidence. You have to project 100% confidence. Promise big.

You do wonder sometimes where the confidence comes. from? Like if you hear scientists talking about, I mean, I don't know, let's take our virologists that we spoke to recently talking about their, you know, slowly growing confidence in one particular theoretical explanation versus another, you know, it's this reluctant, gradual kind of thing and it's tempered and there's this, that, and the other, and this weight of evidence and so on, like with this kind of confidence in the power of imagination and the power of these tools to radically change your life, you might think, well, this must be based on some incredible incredible evidence. The kind of evidence that can literally change anybody's life to such a huge

degree if they just do these straightforward things. You must think there is this just huge amount of work. All of these published studies, it must be this big thing. I don't think there is, but I think the confidence is the thing. Yeah, I mean, Jordan Peterson is the same. Have you ever seen Jordan Peterson not the, well, you know, he does express performative uncertainty at from time to time. But essentially, in the things that he really believes in, being perpendicular and orienting yourself to the godlike essence or whatever, I mean, he's 100% confident about that stuff and he will never make any caveats. Well, I will say, Ma, there is, I agree that it's kind of been oversold, the extent to which there is like a developed research

agenda that's going to be discussed here. However, as you and I both know, the world of positive psychology, mindfulness, meditation and grit, so on. There is a vast array and an endless appetite for positive psychology type research, often of very poor quality and often victim through,

you know, failures to replicate in terms of like better controlled studies and stuff. I'm just noting that there are entire journals in psychology dedicated to pumping out the kind of things that they're going to reference. Yeah, there are two academic streams, I think, which feed into these characters, which is, one is, as he said, positive psychology,

which it's a big field, it's very popular. I have a pretty dim opinion about the entire field, frankly. Some may disagree, but, yeah, then there is the clinical psychology, in particular the more, the more, what, flaky end, I suppose, transpersonal stuff and integrative stuff and it's it's pretty fluffy spiritually inclined often yeah that's right and like i've been personally involved in it tangentially when

occasionally there are clinical masters or phd students who need some help with their work and i've i've not been impressed i have to say chris in terms of the scientific rigor but the other third one actually i just realized is parapsychology um phoenix of this as well as well well, which, so yes, psychology and academia generally, it's a very broad church. A thousand flowers are blooming. Just because there are journals in areas and papers published in them does not automatically mean rigorous, scientific and robust. Yes, this is true. So Cassandra Vitton, who is the guest, right, is at University of California, San Diego. And her center over there is the Center for Mindfulness at San Diego Centers for Integrative Health, right?

Integrative Health being a term that is often related to complementary and all kind of medicine approaches, right? And if you look at her publications, the most cited ones are, one is an empirical study, effects of a mindfulness-based intervention during pregnancy on pre-needial stress and mood results of a pilot study. So that's a pilot study from 2008. But her other top side of papers are spiritual and religious competencies for psychologists,

worldview, transformation and development of social consciousness, spiritual and religious competencies in psychology, competencies for psychologists in the domains of religion and spirituality, clinical studies of biofewed therapy, summary, methodological challenges of recommendations, future directions and meditation research, living deeply, the art and science of transformation in every, day life and so on, right?

So this should speak to that approach that you're going to get here, which is the Dr. Kay side of science, which is often presented like, I'm a hard-nosed empiricist, but I've come to recognize the benefits of spiritual and alternative treatments and so on. But when you look, it's actually often the case that the people were always quite strong advocates of that. And there is a fair amount of spiritual insights that are coming in here. So at different parts of the interview, it's presented a little differently. And I've got two clips actually, Matt, that highlight the difference in the presentation.

Right. So here's Mel Robbins talking about Cassandra Vitton's status in the field when it comes to consciousness research. Well, going back to the very beginning, where we talked about the fact that 70, percent of the people who listen to the show around the world feel like they're reacting to life. What I love about what you're teaching us is so many of us are looking outside of ourselves for the signals when transformation is an inside activity. And these tools help you turn inward and go deeper inward into your subconscious, into your spirit, into your heart, into the things that you can't explain and tap into those signals for guidance rather than

constantly looking outside yourself for them. You are one of the most cited researchers alive on the conscious mind. What is consciousness? So there she's described as being one of the most cited researchers on the conscious mind. And in the blurb to the episode, she's described as one of the world's leading researchers in the science of imagination. These are overblown credits, I think. Actually, we couldn't find any papers in her CV on imagination specifically. And even if there were, it certainly wouldn't be able to put her as one of the top researchers in that particular area.

Well, one, you know, looking at the psychiesia metrics and whatnot. If she is one of the most cited, your Hitch index and citations are significantly higher. So that means I should be recognizing, you know, your level. Show me some word. Show me a bit more goddamn respect, Chris. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. But also Kevin Mitchell, who we interviewed, is somebody that's been centered, like, substantially

more on the topic of consciousness. And when we introduced him, even though we were talking about our consciousness, this. We didn't say, this is one of the most world-renowned, you know, experts of content. Nor did he present himself in that way. So there's like, just, I think it's worth contrasting. Look at how Kevin Mitchell is introduced and look at his actual achievements and compare it to how Cassandra Vietin is introduced and what her relative expertise is in. Yeah, that's right. So, you know, not to drag on Dr. Vient Fiatin too much, but, um, You know, just realistically, most of her portfolio is around those sorts of clinical type framework articles, small pilot studies, qualitative spiritual transformation stuff.

There is some empirical work, but it is, yeah, it's relatively minor stuff and it tends to be salami sliced over multiple publications. It includes work on evaluating distance healing, like healing people at a distance. It does include one study that uses the EEG, the electroencephalogram, but that's actually attempting to prove that EEG extends into the future, that we have like a conscious awareness of the future before it actually happened. So if there's any physicists in the audience, they wish to comment on the plausibility of that one, and also biofields, the science of energy healing and so on, which again, you know, look, this is

it's a stretch to call this stuff science, I think. I would agree. And so when she's presented as the kind of scientific expert who's going to explain things and she does at various points throughout, right?

I'll play various clip of it. It's worth bearing in mind the dreaming that's been applied. But this is, this clips the more accurate reality of the kind of approach that has been applied here. How do you tap into the unconscious mind?

Well, it's interesting. When I started to do a lot of work on imagination, I went out to the desert in Enzobarago, and it's this gorgeous desert landscape and hiked to this top of this mountain. And at that point, I had this 360-degree view of everything. And I asked what I guess I would call the spirits, but let's just call it the universe or other people might call it something different. It's like, what does the world need to know about it? imagination. And the answer was immediate. It was tell them it's the place where we can most easily

talk to them. And I love that because I feel like there is an inner wisdom, a deep inner wisdom that each one of us holds that's not accessible by typical linear logical thinking. It's accessible through imagination. And as we practice imagination more purposefully, as we create the conditions in our lives where imagination is more welcome to spontaneously arise, we start to get messages from that deeper inner self that are meaningful, that are influential, that are outside the box, and that allow us to make fundamental shifts in the way that we view the world and therefore in the way we show up in the world. And that changes everything. All right. So do you have a way that you could show me what

experiencing this is like. So there you go, Ma. The unconscious, when she was tapping into it, you know, I'm thinking about what she wants to tell people about imagination. She went up to the top of a mountaintop and spirits or, you know, call them whatever you will, the universe. They've been dint into her that imagination is the way that they can directly communicate with people.

And it's a more intuitive, more authentic kind of thing. And it doesn't that illustrate exactly the same kind of, the thing that Dean McGilchrist or Jordan Peterson are talking about orientating yourself towards the vertical or leaning into the right brain thinking and experiencing awe and recognizing the power of forces beyond arcane and stuff. And it speaks to me that like this content that we cover, there's so many themes that run under it. And one of the like recurrent ones, it comes in all these different flavors. It can be dressed up like a secular guru or in this case, more like spiritual self-help type talk.

But it's basically saying, trust your own intuitions and believe in these bigger powers that are guiding you. You know, rational logical approaches will tell you that it doesn't exist or it's not real, right? It's mystical, magical claims. But actually, those who understand realize it's actually the real fundamental knowledge of the universe. And it's just, that's not. science. It's mysticism and religion and spiritual beliefs and all that kind of thing. And believe

it if you choose to, but it's very much not the way that the episode is framed, you know, in the description or the earlier parts of the episode where it's like we're getting these insights from a like psychological point of view. Yeah, we're getting the insights from a world leader in empirical science on psychology and how the mind works. But a specialist in how imagination works and how consciousness works. This is all science. Is the setup, is the framing. And every now and again, they return to that. But as you said, Chris, it is just a matter of having your cake and eating it too. It feels a little bit unfair. I'm not a fan of the mystical, magical, spiritual way of approaching the world through vibes and intuitions.

I mean, you know, I don't have a problem with it, but it feels a bit unfair to sort of have both ends of the spectrum, to claim that this is robust science. You know, it's all been proved and it's all demonstrated and taking the mantle of that kind of expertise, but also saying, well, I got my ideas from going up onto the mountain and communicating with the spirits and I discovered that these things are basically a way for them to talk to us. Yeah, you know, it's just, if they're not non-overlapping magisteria, Chris, then they are colliding at the moment. They're overlapping a lot. Well, if you want to hear it framed in terms of them making the distinction about how they're not, in particular, Dr. Rican is not

endorsing Wu directly. This is her talking about how like her approach to manifestation is not based on like spiritualism or magic. It's more psychological. What's the difference between manifestation and magical thinking? Yeah, so magical thinking often has to do with the stuff that I want other people to do or the stuff that I want to have. It has to do with things I don't have any control over. I just want these things to appear in my life. And manifestation, as I understand it, is more about how do I want to show up? How do I want to be as I move into the future? I want to be honest. I want to be supportive. I want to be empowering of other people. I want to lift other people up with me. I want to be genuine. I want to be authentic. I want to set boundaries. I want to have a different energy level.

Those are things that I can actually do. And so manifestation, I think, the best use of it is to picture who and how you want to be and what results that might have. Because a lot of times when we think about things we want in the future, it's because we think they're going to give us a sense of freedom or vitality or love or connection or worth whileness. And they may. And it's good to move towards those. But the other thing you can do is flip it and say, what could I do today to give myself a sense of those things that I think the future thing are going to bring me. What freedom can I bring into my life today? What vitality? What are the things that I could do right now that would bring me what I think that future thing is going to give me? What's a daily practice or routine? The person who's listening

right now can start to put all this into their life. I kept that last pandemic as well because this question comes up repeatedly about like, okay, given that's all true, what's the little technique that we can take away to add to our daily practice? And I've got lots of clips where that applies. And it's kind of part of the self-help jam that you will have these kind of takeaways. And if you actually put them all in the practice, which each episode, you would have like a thousand things you did to do before you get up in the morning. but then it speaks to me the same way like Chris Williamson is always hunting for quotes

or like little new idioms right. Little rules. Yeah. Yeah, and also little rules, like not eating this or making a list of these things or like there's a thousand little behavioral practices that one is supposed to put it to place that will create these incredible outcomes and self-optimization. And what do you think, Chris? I mean, manifestation, that's an interesting word because I feel like it covers the spectrum, doesn't it?

Oh, yeah. Well, so the secret is the elephant in the room here, which is this popular book. You know, you could also go to the New Thought Movement and the Theosophists and stuff before it write out. I'm not saying that's the first instantiation of it, but the secret is the thing in recent periods, which focused on this concept of man and infestation, that basically, you know, if you want something enough, the universe will kind of sense that energy and provide it for you. And we've heard it in pretty much all the other self-help content

that we've looked at, that they often will make clear. They're now endorsing the silly magical version where you just like imagine you get a Lamborghini and a Lamborghini, you know, pops into existence. They're very clear to say, that's not what we're saying. What we're talking about is just like what is the Lamborghini?

It's something that you get from being successful and having resources. And actually, you know, do you focus more on the self-actualizing bit of it. You might very well end up with a Lamborghini. But it's it's because, you know, your energy was focused on success and development. So like they basically try to endorse the same message, but avoid being tied to making. mystical claims, right, that you can magically create things. But they do go very close to that in terms of like the power of positive thinking and rewards it can provide you.

Exactly, exactly. It came through there and at other times too, it's clarified that you can't manifest kind of bad things. You can't manifest things that bring the world into a more positive alignment, which was reassuring because I was wondering if, you know, someone like Hitler could be manifesting the sedaten land or Czechoslovakia or something. And, you know, if it's such a powerful tool, then it seems like it's a bit like the, you know, split in the atom could be used for great good or great evil.

But, yeah, like you said, at times when they describe it, it can be described in purely psychological terms and more defensively as like being very clear about the goal you're attempting to achieve. giving it your full attention and then ensuring that your motivations, your decisions and your behavior are aligned, which will help make that positive outcome more likely. So you can talk about it without using the word manifestation,

but talk about it in very dry terms in terms of, and I suspect cognitive behavioral therapists perhaps might, if they were talking to a client, might well do that. you know, be focused on achieving your goals, right? And the other sort of bro-type influences like Chris Williamson that we cover will often take that approach. But I think the emphasis of manifesting with these guys is like a Motten Bailey type thing, where you can get a lot of the appeal from the New Age self-help version of manifestation, which is that your vibrational state and imagination is going to directly bring the universe into alignment in order to

produce these external events. And I think at times they're quite clear in their hinting that this is also happening. Well, the general message and approach I think here is along the lines of you might have been interested in manifestation and you were told that it was wrong. but that was actually a reductive mistake, right? Because maybe the course, like, non-sophisticated version of manifestation is not quite right. But you understand, right, that there is a deeper way in which it's true. And this is often the way these things go in podcast land is like, especially recently, that people want to justify some practice, right?

It might be prayer, it might be distance healing. or whatever and they'll kind of get somebody with a scientific background on who will endorse it without directly endorsing the claims. You know, you mentioned the thing about the candy app where they have to say, like you can't manifest bad things. We're afraid to open that effort. Like Clint, I think is quite killing. Yeah. I mean, there are two main ways to shift perspective.

One of them is training. You repeat it to yourself over and over and over. again. And practice means the combination of intention, setting an intention for what you want and what you're doing, attention, paying attention to it on purpose every day, and repetition. And that's what retrains the brain. When you have a clear vision of what you want to do, where you want to go, what is trying to come through you, and this is personal, not scientific, how many of us start to have synchronicities and feelings that you're getting signs from the universe and that somehow the universe is conspiring to help you. And sometimes,

you know, I kind of like to imagine that there's like a, we got a live one over here in sector five. Like they've got their vision. They're going for it. Everybody get over there and try to help, right? Because you are trying to do something. And I think it has to be something that is serving humanity, that's serving the planet, serving all beings. I don't think that this works when you're trying to manifest something that's going to harm others or that's going to cause more fear or constriction or division or hatred. Yeah, that can be out of the end is quite important because if this does work this way, it can be like, imagine here just, like you said, you know, an Austrian painter who is frustrated and, you know, you've got big dreams, really big dreams

about how you can transform the world. And, you know, your energy, makes it so the universe, you know, what kind of synchronicities happen? You're in specific places. There's other events happening in Germany at the same time that make it just right down receptive to your energy. No, we don't want the inverse. No, it's reassuring to know you cannot manifest the Anschluss.

That's good to know. Because it's a powerful tool. It's a powerful tool, but it can only have forced for good. Yeah, so, you know, it was pretty clear there too, right? which is, you know, yeah, you know, you can think of this in psychological terms. It's going to help, obviously, to be focused and have your attention in the right direction and training and so on. But also when you do that, you know, haven't you noticed that the, you know, the universe will tend

to provide and things will kind of happen. It's almost it's like the universe is trying to help you when that happens. And yeah, so I do believe that a large part of the, you know, on our podcast, we talk about the head, you know, a lot of good gurus appeal to the head and the heart at the same time. the sciencey part of it, the logical part of it, is there to sort of satisfy the cognitive aspect. But at the same time, there is usually a gut punch or something that grabs you in your soul. And with this, the thing that is really going to catch people is the thing that they deny, which is the magical or spiritual agency that you are summoning into existence with the right kind of mindset

and with the right practice. And it does remind me, Chris, like all of the new age self-help stuff that, we see, most of it does come out of the United States. It does sound a lot like the prosperity gospel, right? It does seem to be like a certain kind of religiosity and spirituality that is oriented around changing the material conditions of your life and getting the things that you want. Yeah, well, their examples are mostly around like bigger houses, like success in career and so on. So I think there definitely is an element of that.

And the other aspect of it, the thing with the prosperity gospel and other things like it, the bit that is always important, I think, to keep in mind. And there are at some points in this episode attempting to downplay the converse of what it suggests,

which implies the people that feel, that people who are in terrible circumstances, or whatever, that if they approach it with the right mindset, they can't be in those circumstances, right? Because things will transform for the better. And the reality is, no, like an example of this, Mark, which is really common and comes up a lot in Jordan Peterson's stuff as well, is Victor Frankel, right?

You know Victor Frankel, the survivor of the Holocaust? So listen to this. Well, one of the amazing things that you've done for us today is you've taught us how to use the innate skill that we have of imagination, visualization, manifestation to see a world that we want to live in and to see a future that we want to create. For somebody that's feeling very discouraged, because the news is horrendous, people are really, really struggling. Maybe you're in a moment in your life where you do feel like things are falling apart. Why is that a moment that it's more important than ever to tap into the power and the science of your imagination to imagine a better future? Why does this matter right now more than ever? I mean, there's not much you can do about the external pressures or the way that so many things seem to be going kind of insane.

But what you can do is shift the way that you choose to navigate the moment in time that we are all in. And that requires your imagination. How do I want to show up in the world? Imagination can be framed as an act of resistance. Your imagination is something that no one can ever take away from you. the story of Victor Frankel, for example, the Holocaust, he's in a concentration camp. The only thing he has left is he imagines himself in the future teaching a classroom of students. They could not take that away from him.

And indeed, after surviving, that is where he ended up. That was what he could hang on to. You know, you can regard it as an inspirational story. and Victor Franco, advocate for logo therapy, his approach was, it wasn't about imagination, right? In his particular approach, he said it's about meaning, having a meaning that you hold on to. But actually, Franco, in a similar way,

is, you know, picking a particular thing and saying, if you have this, it transforms everything else. And people pointed out that, like, you know, there were plenty of Jewish people that had a lot of meaning and a lot of things they're lit for, a lot of hopes and dreams about the future. And they're not around now, right, because the Nazis killed them or whoever. You know, so like this notion that if you have that,

you're kind of empowered and you're able to achieve it. And you're just like, no, a lot of time, no, right? Like your internal intentions will not prevent a Holocaust or you being the victim of it. does mean like Frankl's family and stuff, you know, they didn't have a strong enough imagination about their future. So I just think it's worth, it's always focused on like the kind of empowering message of it. But he leaves out what that implies for the people who feel or who end up in bad circumstances despite having positive intentions and energies. Yeah, that's fair. I think the defense you could make of this whole positive attitude, individualist, you can make the change. If you can imagine it, then you can make it real. Is that they're right, I think, when they say that, you know, you don't have the power to change a lot of stuff in the world, right? You know, structural. You can only control yourself. Yeah. That's right. Like, you know, inequity, structural, inequality.

and all of the bad things that happen from cyclones to dictators to whatever, you can't change that. So it may not be the most rational way of looking at the world, but it might be the most effective one for an individual to have, which is just take the attitude that you can change things. Because if you have the attitude that, look, I'm a victim of circumstance, I've got no chance, you know, all the cards are stacked against me, various social and political and, you know, geological forces, seismic kind of forces are at play here.

I mean, that's all true, but at the same time, the best attitude may... Yeah, that's right. The best attitude may be to at least pretend you've got more agency than you really have. But I think you're taking a slightly different message than they're suggesting because they are instead emphasizing that you shouldn't focus on the external world and trying to control it. You should just focus on, you know, yourself and changing your mindset and developing yourself and self-actualizing. Which is different than what you're saying is like, even though it's true that you

probably can't change the world and you can't make a dent on trains or whatever, you can still like choose what you do, right? Like, and various people throughout history have. you know, done things with the support of all the people, just loading for things is often like attempting to make a change, right? Even if it ultimately a lot of times doesn't succeed. But in those cases, I think they are more wanting to say focusing on yourself is actually the most important thing to do, which is, you know, a nice message to give people for self-help, whereas you're saying, don't get this inherent by the fact that the world and all

of the circumstances that exist, you know, or beyond your control. You can still act. And I just think there's a slight divergence in what is being emphasized there. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it is like a self-centered or an individualistic. Oh, absolutely. I've got a million clips. Yeah, yeah.

But, you know, I could see that it's, it can be. like if you have two people, one person, you know, has got this positive attitude that they can make all these changes in their life and accomplish their dreams and so on. And you've got the other person who doesn't believe that. If the cards are stacked against them equally, I'd say the first person's got a better shot, right? Oh, yeah, yeah. But I think you have to factor into this. What we talked about, like the level of self-belief that Eric Weinstein and Scott Adams have in themselves, versus level of self-belief of like, you know, the scientists that we interviewed. There's a difference there.

And one level of self-belief is way higher and unwarranted. So the point I want to make is that you can, you know, believe that you're a great scientist all you want and that, you know, you have a big granted opportunities, whatever, for whatever reason. but the actual reality of what you've done is often more consequential than yourself image. Okay. Well, I mean, I feel like I'm bending over backwards to an unwarranted degree to defend their point of view. But I think I'd say that, you know, I couldn't for this framework.

You don't just believe it. You kind of do things in alignment with those beliefs as well. But anyway. Yes, yeah. Well, and one of the things, just to put a cap on that, is like we are emphasizing that there's a significant element that we involve, but actually, that's not true. And what I believe is that when you intentionally take the time to identify the things that you want and you go from mental to physical and then you go and kind of flood your body with feeling what the future you is going to be doing. on the road there, something crazy happens in your brain and the filters in your mind and you see patterns and you see connections and you see the future differently. And I don't believe

it's woo-woo at all. I think it's very hard science. Yeah, that's exactly what we're talking about is. And the only difference is I would say you're using your imagination to completely embody, we call it embodied imagination. You are embodying the future you want to see. You're embodying the goals. And I love how you said, you're also imagining the hard parts. Because so many people just imagine the result. Embody in your imagination all the steps it's going to take to get to where you want to go. It's like the future's already happened. And you are reverse engineering it through giving your brain and your body the signals that this is what we are up to now. And it takes that level of work because the programming and the conditioning that you have from the previous parts of your life, so much of it, right? It's hardwired. So that daily practice is you literally using your imagination to retrain your brain and get it to cooperate with you in these activities.

It's hard science. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Because it sounds good. That's not weird. It's hard science. It's just using it. it's the abusive words that bothers me sometimes.

I get that it sounds good to you, but that doesn't make it hard signs. But, Chris, I mean, aren't what they describing simply planning? Like, if you're imagining like a goal that you were trying to achieve, a very positive state that you would like to get to, and then you're imagining all of the steps that will be required to get you there, including the difficult ones. And you're thinking through all of the, you know, all of the, hard road you've got to travel and the order in which you've got to do things and so on.

Isn't this just like a lot of words to describe the idea that if you want to achieve something, you should make a plan, think it through and then implement it? Well, yes. So it falls into the observation we've had that insofar as people are giving insights on podcasts where they're true, they're banal and where they are seemingly, you know, wild and novel, they're false or lies. And actually, I have a good example of this. So I do agree, Matt, that, you know, yes, planning things are even thinking about the hardships.

It's good to do that. But like, who didn't know that before this conversation, right? And that's how I would put a lot of the insights offered throughout this conversation. But in terms of novel information that you receive, well, actually, I shouldn't. I'm doing what she said. I'm filling you up with, you know, negative emotions. Just listen to this inspiring story, Maya. Why is the skill of imagination critical to creating a better life?

Well, the only thing that has ever led to inventions or breakthroughs or things that have changed the world, both individuals and in our society, like cell phones or electricity, Going to the moon. Right, going to the moon, right? Somebody somewhere said, what if, what if we could go to the moon? What if we could talk to each other using a machine? There's a super cool story about Alexander Graham Bell and the inventor of the telephone. And so he actually had this experience where he somehow knew his sister was in trouble. And this is before the phone. This is before, this is like, you know, mail was on the Pony Express, right? He just had a sense, something's wrong with my sister, something's not okay. And he did find out through letter like three weeks later she had had a carriage accident. And he said, you know, I wish we had a machine that would let us communicate with each other. And he just dedicated his life to making that machine. And so that's a big one, right?

But in your own life, there are things that you could create or invent solutions that you could come to that again, can only begin in your imagination. Yeah. I just want to, you know, take him in a week being a bit negative nellies. So what do you think about that? I mean, there's a lot in that. There's the interesting thing that Alexander Bell knew. You know, he somehow just knew his sister, something had happened.

Yeah, I didn't realize this is one of the key lightball moments that led to the invention of telecommunications. he had a vision that his sister was in trouble. But he didn't have a telephone. We don't need their visions anymore because we've got the telephone. He could just call him. So that motivated him to invent the telephone, right? Well, one slight problem with that feels, as often happens, anytime I fact check anything for the forecast,

it turns out to be false, right? And in this case, it's quite substantially false because Alexander Bell didn't have a sister. But definitely could not have happened, and indeed there is no record that that is the motivation. There's no carriage accident. None of that is true. But that surely matters, right?

Like this is this inspiring story where it's like, and yes, this is how we change the world right? It's because of these synchronicities. It's because of this desire to envision things. but the actual story has nothing to do of any of that. And this is just like a story that fits for a narrative. So she's telling that on a podcast. And now lots of people think Alexander Bell invented the telephone

because of its psychic connection with his sister. Who didn't exist? Yeah, that's wild. But it's telling also, isn't it, that all the examples of the power of imagination. And it was actually incredible that all these examples took place like well before these pioneers of the science of the imagination were around. So these scientists were somehow winged it without this knowledge.

But they're all scientists, all those examples, right? They're all scientific inventions that were described. But the framing is that they occurred through vision at a distance and vibrations between people, these spiritual stuff. I do have a non-scientific example. I can give you that was referenced. I like to say Martin Luther King Jr. did not say we have a problem. He said, I have a dream.

And he invited people into that dream. And more quickly than anyone thought, at least a lot of that dream has been realized, there's still a long way to go. That's what motivates people is imagining a future that's different. And I think this is very important for those of you who are listening. When you criticize yourself, when you punish yourself, when you focus on what is not working, and how you need to do it better and the weight you need to lose and all the stuff, I would spend about 10 to 15% of your time accurately seeing what are the issues, what are the problems, and then the rest of your time on what are potential solutions. And what is my vision for the future should those solutions come to pass? What will it feel like?

What will it look like? Where will I be? What colors will be around me? What kind of people will be around me? What language will I be using toward myself or toward other people? How much further could I go with just that one change? Well, to be pedantic, I think with the monolithic example, which is speaking to the power of rhetoric rather than anything else.

But I'm going to hand it to them here, Chris, because I think substantially that is correct in terms of focusing on positive benefits rather than alleviating negatives, I think is often good advice. Like often when, for instance, they're advising people who are trying to quit smoking or something like that or dieting or whatever, you can ruminate. on the negatives that will transpire if you continue with the bad behavior. Or you can focus on, hey, I'm going to be able to play tennis, and I'm going to be able to, actually, I'm thinking if I think he should leave.

I could toss my son in the air, you know, once you get the back surgery, that kind of thing. Yeah, you know, like the focusing on the positives that will occur if you do the difficult thing is not terrible advice. So I'm going to hand that to them. Yeah, I'll hand them that as well. Though I do think that Martin Luther King Jr. in other speeches and, you know, preparatory work may have mentioned that the may have talked about the negatives as well.

I'm not an expert on that part of American history, but I would suspect so, yes. Yes, so, you know, there is that. But there was a thing at the very start where synchronicities come up as well. And, you know, part of this whole thing is framed around with, as we said, it's like manifestation science is one point of it. And as you've heard through a bunch of the clips, imagination and the power of imagination is the other, because this is the particular hook that is in Cassandra Vietan's work. Her hook is around imagination and manifestation and all these kind of things. But when they're introducing the topic, they frame it like this. I work with hundreds and hundreds of people every year who feel like as you grow up,

you become nine, 10, 11 years old, and people say, okay, time to stop imagining, time to get real. You know, that's imaginary. That's not, that doesn't really happen. None of that actually happens. And so you're trained over time to become this very serious, logical, rational, reasonable type of person. And what happens, unfortunately, is that it's almost like the pendulum swings too far in that direction, and you lose that sense of awe and wonder and mystery and even like noticing synchronicities that happen or noticing things that are amazing. You're sort of like, oh, filter that out, just stay focused.

When those are the things that people actually, when they look back at their lives, they remember those moments as some of the most important things that happen to them. Yeah, well, strong shades of Ian McGilchrist here again, right? this idea that, you know, reconnecting. The modern world and being an adult in the modern world is one that encourages you to be logical and rational and all of those things. But we're losing the most important thing, which is the imagination and the feeling of wonder. I mean, why the persistent use of the word synchronicity? Because that is definite woo, you know, perceiving completely

coincidental events as being causally connected and having some transcendental meaning to them. You just signed like a dismissive babel that has been taught to not value. Coincidences and as we heard, the spirits of the mountains are, you know, they're trying to beam their knowledge in whatever way they can. Synchronously, these are one potential avenue. So yes, I'm being facetious, but I do think that is part of what. being implied there. But this thing that Imbegius did it too, or it's like, you know, in the modern world, we're all rational and we're all believers in science and we're all, we don't have any imagination or mystery. I'm like, what world do you live in? Like, just look around you. People

believe in magical thinking all over the place and mystical stuff is extremely popular. Like, they always talk as if rational science has become. Yeah, like popular culture. Like, were a bunch of computers just logically analyzing everything. Nobody lives like that. Even scientists, you know, even your most, I bet even Richard Dawkins said that doesn't tweet like that. I bet even a scientist doesn't live like that. Like we have technology like phones and stuff, but almost everyone, me included,

just treat them as magical talkie boxes, you know, like we don't think about, like we live in a world of technology and industry. computers and so on. But that's not how people live. That's not how people think. So, so there is this straw man that's being beaten down all the time, that the world is, is rational and logical and scientific. Yeah, whereas like, yeah, if there were any directions, if there were any movements in that direction, they've, they've long since reversed, I think. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I don't mean the technology and science. Overall, how. hasn't had like a bigger impact and that there isn't a decrease in religiosity in more secularized

societies and that kind of thing. But just them notion is that, you know, we've all become rationalist. I mean, like, no, we haven't. You know, our podcast makes that incredibly clear. Like, I don't think I have. In my day-to-day life, I think I do things and want things mainly on vibes. I'm no exception, I don't think. I think it's not a normal human. I agree. Yeah, you're not the exception yeah okay yeah okay christopher Dawkins like no i would i would just say that you know in comparison to the general population i would say that you put more stock in science the majority of people but you're right that like even with that and everybody's a mixture of like you know just going on vibes and and doing those kind of things the scientific method you know it's the best way to find out things about

the world. It is not always the method that you employ to decide what you want to eat for dinner. Or that can have been. No, it's like with Liam Neeson. It's a very specific set of skills for a very specific purpose. Yeah. Yes. Well, this leads Mel Robbins to have some insight this particular for you mean. I would love to have you speak to the person who's listening right now who feels like they're just reacting to life because 70% of, you know, the millions of people that listen to this show every single week responded to a survey that we just put out saying, I feel like I'm reacting. I'm not really living my life. I'm not creating anything. Dr. Veton, based on your research, what can they learn to do that will help them switch out of

that mode of like, I'm just trying to survive here. I didn't even realize creating something different was possible. Yeah, I mean, first of all, it's not your fault. Society and culture right now has been set up in a way that is encouraging us to be reactive. I call it the great flattening. I can't tell you how much of my day I spend in front of a Zoom screen or in front of a TV screen or in front of my phone screen. So a lot of people are waking up in the morning and all the way until the evening all they're doing is reacting to what comes at them. So how does imagination help with this? Well, I like to think of life as sort of like a tapestry. So let's say you have have threads that are weaving into the tapestry. And these are the actual constraints of your life,

all of the stuff that you have no control over. It's your genetics. It's how, what networks you have, what opportunities you have, et cetera. But then you've got the part of life that you create and you weave in. And a lot of that is imagined. I often think that modern culture, people are not encouraged enough to self-actualize or give their opinions or express themselves. American culture doesn't have any emphasis of that at all in its culture. It's just like just consume. Don't give any opinions online. Don't be an individual.

It's not like every single marketing campaign for every product is emphasizing how unique it will make you and allow you to self-express yourself. And I just, I find this, I just very annoying that because, you know, American culture, the one message that you get. And you can extend it beyond America if you want. It is like self-expression, being authentic to yourself, self-actualizing is the most important thing. That's not like a rare sentiment that you never hear. It's something I hear all the time and is presented in media endlessly. So again, it just feels like this straw man world they're living in where people aren't told that it's good to be expressive and create things. They're just told like don't do any of that.

you'll remember my day and again. Well, I'd put it this way, Chris. What was the name of the actor, Hollywood actor we covered, who did his self-help song and dance on stage? Matthew McConaughey. You saw with that a very good example of how self-help works, which is that they throw a very wide net. So self-help is solving a problem.

And what they want to be doing is solving every problem. So anyone who's in the audience, everyone's got a problem, right? it's going to be different with each person. So it's described in a very broad way. How do you feel right now, Chris? Do you feel frustrated? Do you feel like you often have to do things that you don't want to do? Do you feel tired all the time?

You do. That's right, hey. Yeah, yeah. Do you feel sometimes that your life is lacking purpose and you don't have a clear direction? Yeah, sometimes. Yeah. Well, like, you know, I can keep going, right? And I would ding quite a few things, right?

And that's the way the language works, right? You know, they did a survey, 70% of people are lacking X-Y and just reactive, right? That's the word they're focusing on here. And imagination, it turns out, is the solution in this episode anyway. For this week. Yeah, for this week. Next week it'll be something else. But I think that's part of how self-help works, right?

Everyone feels dissatisfied to some degree. Everyone feels tired. Everyone would like things to be a little bit clearer. are always things people can imagine that they don't have, that in some way their life could be better. What's the solution? Well, the solution, you're about to hear it. And you know, one of the tools, Matt, you heard at the end there, is metaphors.

Metaphors. We know that the sense speakers like metaphors, we know that the secular gurus like their goal on the indulgent descriptions of metaphors, as if it proves the point. You remember Ian McGam-Christ talking about consciousness, and the banks of a river and Jordan Peterson on his merry travels about crystalline structures. And there you have like a tapestry with threads that are not yours, but you get the weed your thread in. That's a good way to think about your life, right?

You can do that. But there are other metaphors, Matt, like, for example. Yeah, and it's not even skillful to have it be all up to you. Like I was working with a client the other day where we were using the metaphor of an obstacle course. And you know those military obstacle courses where you're like crawling underneath the ropes and then you've got to get over this gigantic wall. How do they get over that gigantic wall? Somebody else pushes you up. That's right. Yeah. So you could say I got to do it all myself, but you could also be stuck at that wall for many, many years because you simply will not ask someone to give you the boost. I've never thought about visualization as writing a different story. I've always thought I have to close my eyes, crisscross, applesauce with my feet. and try to see the movie. So there you go, Matt.

Obstacle course, that's a good way I think about it. Now, if you think about those military courses, I know what they're thinking about. They're thinking about the one where there's like a big huge wall and the soldiers have to, you know, like clasp your hands and give someone a leg up, right? But I do think there are other obstacle courses where you're not allowed to just ask people for help.

Yes. You know, during training, I think the majority of, obstacle courses or ones that you run on your own. And even if it's very hard and you can't do it, you can't just say, can I get my friend to help me push up this wall? Don't quibble with the metaphors, Chris. That one spoke to me. When we talked about having to rely on others and giving people a leg up, I just, that's what I do with you in this podcast. You know, you stand on the shoulder of a giant carrying you constantly. Did you know, just be thankful, you know. Okay, well, so all right, we had the tapestry. Now, we had the obstacle course,

but there are other metaphors, Ma. That just gave me a visual, speaking of imagination, because in periods in my life where I have been in utter survival mode, don't even know how I got through the day. Young kids can't pay the bills. So many of us have been there. It's like you're treading water in the middle of an ocean with no land. land in sight. And that's why it feels like you can just keep your head above water and that's all you can do. And these tools have really helped me because what they've done is by using tools like your imagination, visualizing a future state, starting to manifest and intentionally program your mind for where you want to go. It's almost like a lighthouse in the distance appears. And now,

even though you're still just barely able to keep your head above water, you now have a direction to move toward? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. And for me, sometimes it goes back to story. So I'm drowning. I'm exhausted. I can barely get through this. One story is to say, I can see myself drowning. The other is I'm on mile 19 of a 26 mile marathon that I volunteered for and I am going towards the finish line, but mile 19 sucks, right? It's painful. It's hard, but I am the runner who's doing this. What do I need? Sometimes I need my pit crew to hand me some water along the way, all of that stuff. This is something how I feel mid-recording. while 19

I just find it incredible how these things operate like what you just said made me think about a metaphor you're trying to stay above the water right and then you get a good image and you've got the lighthouse and divisions are like oh that's yeah that's a good metaphor I've got another metaphor

but you can think about drowning but what do you think about running a race and like we've experienced us like I say, in lots of content where the power of metaphor in podcast land and guru world, it just can't be overstated. They love metaphors.

They reason in metaphors and they often like kind of replace argument or evidenced with like metaphor, right? So it's just, I know humans use metaphors for various purposes, but they seem to have a totemic quality in this piece, which is hard to oversteer.

Yeah. Yeah, well, I think your point is fair, which is a lot of the rhetorical force of it comes from an evocative metaphor, right? So, start off, like, have you ever felt like you're drowning? Like, you can't keep your head above water? Like, the pressure just never ends, the responsibilities and so on. Yes, I have felt like that. Well, I mean, imagination is like a lighthouse.

in the distance, you know, maybe if you don't think of yourself is drowning, but maybe you're swimming, you're heading towards that thing and you're like, you know, it connects to, I don't know, a different part of the brain that is, I guess it's the right side of the brain, Ian McGilchrist would say. Oh my God. I've gotten you too much. I mean too, but it has a persuasive power that doesn't come through any kind of evidence or thinking about it.

It's just like that's an image that speaks to me. Yeah, and yeah, well, they do kind of meet this point. Another is, you know, even when you are facing something that is so difficult, so hard, so even shameful that you feel like you have to keep it a secret, one of the things that I'll work with people on is imagine that there are 1,000 women in a semi-circle behind you, and they have all faced this same thing. I have a kid in trouble. I lost someone. You know, that you have an entire group of people throughout history who have faced the same thing and now they are walking behind you and helping you make your way through it. So, yes, going towards the vision, going towards manifesting the future and also using these other metaphors to help you navigate towards it. So, you know, in that case, it's not really a metaphor, right?

It's more like a image of being surrounded by, you know, it could be the ancestors, could be whoever. It's visualization and stuff like that. But I think there's some self-awareness there, Chris. Like, they're kind of explicit that what we're actually encouraging people to do is to actually use these metaphors, imagine these positive metaphors. And if you do that, then it will help you because it will put you in a positive frame of mind. But can I show your word that leads to, Matt, the logical conclusion of this.

This comes towards the end of the discussion. I have a client who went through the unimaginable, which is that she lost her son to an overdose. And this was quite a long time ago. And she has suffered since then from extreme guilt because she also had an addiction at the time. And she's sure that her addiction caused his addiction and that his overdose was completely on her shoulders. And so this was really, really entrenched. And she felt like punishing herself was the right thing to do. And so as we worked together for a long time, we started to change the story into we both suffered from the disease of addiction. And it went far back in their family.

totally genetic. And we started turning it into a story where our family and my ancestors, it's almost like we live in a village. And every now and then a dragon comes in and breathes fire and lays waste to the land. We lose people. People die. It destroys things. But that has been happening in my family for many, many generations. And the dragon came while I was there with my son, and it got me and we lost him. And so now, what I do in my life instead of punishing myself is I help other people who are facing the unimaginable because I've been through it and I can be by their side while they go through it. Totally different story. The dragon metaphor really, really helped. And so when we talk about transcending reality,

it's not always about going into a complete la-la land. It's about finding a story that's big enough to match what's actually happening in your life and help you transcend that and have it be different for not that the situation was different but the way you look at it is different. Well, it's a super helpful image especially for anybody who's trying

to break generational patterns. Assuming, okay, that this story is retold accurately, which I think is possible, but I do think there's a lot of hyperbole in the way people recount these things. But somebody experienced tragic circumstances,

right, and they were having difficulties with recognizing that it isn't all their responsibility. And the solution is think of it like a big dragon that comes to a village and burns it up.

And like, and your family is the victim of the dragon. I can remember. Am I just like a a callous person because I kind of feel like that seems a very like without work on someone you know your kids your kids dead from an overdose and you're like just imagine a big dragon like flying into the legion I don't know I don't know I think it would work I mean I think in the um that

thing that she's describing it this sounds like positive psychology in a nutshell, at least in these kind of clinical senses, like taken to its logical extreme. Because, like, let's say hypothetically that the mother's own drug addiction might have contributed somewhat to bad outcomes for the son and may have been a factor in their own drug addiction and therefore in their death, right? So that's a pretty unpleasant thing to have to, you know, wrap your head around. Yeah. So the The kid's gone and she's very guilty and you're ruminating about it and so on, finds it difficult to get past.

And I think rightly or wrongly, like it may not be the accurate view of reality of what happened and any personal culpability and so on. But I think if you take positive psychology to its logical extreme, and I'm probably positive psychologists or people who like it will react badly to this, but more of this kind of manifesting pop version of it, which is that the important thing is that you look at the world in a way such that it motivates you in a positive way and will drive you towards more positive outcomes for yourself.

So the best way for this woman to think about that situation is to sort of take herself out of the equation a little bit, think of it about these forces outside of her control, the genetics, the family genetics maybe were at a cause or, you know, a million other factors all wrapped up in like a dragon that is unstoppable and just periodically comes through and bad shit happens. It's not your fault. Move on and think of it in a philosophical kind of way. I can see how that is, if you have a very narrow point of view that you want this person to get over the strong negative feelings that they have and move on with their life in a positive way,

whether or not it's accurate or not, you can see how it could be more positive for them to think of it as the dragon's fault. Yeah, but it's kind of, I guess this could be my limitation as, you know, like whatever, a more concrete type thinker or whatever. But I imagine, like, my friend whose dad was killed in the troubles, right? he was shot by paramiltrees when he was doing his draw. No fault wasn't involved with the paramilchries. And this happened when my friend was like a young kid.

And I imagine like saying to him, now, you know, you're very upset and angry about this and, you know, the thing. Now just imagine a big elephant came in and stamped on your follower, right? You're on the plantation. A big elephant comes in and smashes it up. And it's not. your fault, like the elephant. And it just, I don't know what. To me, it seems... Chris, it's a metaphor. The dragon is a metaphor. It's not, she's not saying a literal dragon. No, but I know that. But it's the, the thing is that it's like, to me, it feels like you're

pushing the reality away and you're inventing like a kind of more palatable version that doesn't actually map onto the circumstance, right? Because like the circumstances, right? Because like the circumstances in that case is that there was a civil conflict and the person's follower was like a tragic victim of it, right? And transforming him into a metaphorical victim of an elephant stampede might be a way to, you know, soften the image of him being shot or whatever. But it just seems to be like, but the reality is, you know, is that, the reality isn't.

And then are the elephant or... You are a concrete thinker, Chris. you are. You don't answer to your question. I mean, I think the analogous thing would be if this psychologist was, was counselling your friend. They might encourage them to think about the sort of the bigger picture, right? That a grandest story of, you know, Ireland and Irish people versus the, you know, the what? The or?

The Irish. No, not the orcs, the English or whatever. But, you know, like centuries of this stuff going on. tragedies recurrently happening and you know people both Protestant and then Catholic gradually emerging from this times of calamities and strife and sadly your father was one of the last victims of this I mean that's a more like a philosophical kind of story around it that's more positive than thinking about these bastards from down the road from over there they you know like there's a different story you can tell about it which is more personalized and which would

sort of maybe be less helpful in adopting a more philosophical kind of view of it. I guess my objection is, I completely agree with you of write about around the story narrative and refraffing it. I do think my objection is largely around the invoking of a dragon because that's where you got stuck. Yeah, I get that. But I feel like it's the equivalent for what you described would be if you told that story, but instead of English people, you put mole monsters, right? And we're like, imagine a war between mole monsters and Irish people, right? And blah, blah, blah.

And that's the kind of thing. Like, it's just, I don't know, I'm fantastic. Maybe it is a lack of imagination on my part, but it's just like, you know, the attention and death of drug overdoses and a big flying dragon burning down a village. You know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, look, I think you got stuck on the dragon. I agree.

Maybe it could have worked better without the dragon. But I think the key thing in what she was describing in a very positive way was the exclusion of sort of personal responsibility. Like in the case of your friend, it would be suppressing the notion that certain particular people who did this thing totally unjust or, you know, violent, horrible thing to whatever. But framing in a more abstract, you know, a mutual cycle of misunderstanding and fear or whatever. sort of abstractifying it away. And I think in an analogous way, that's what she was doing with the client there and saying this was a very good thing for the mother to think about the death of her son in a more abstracted, sort of philosophical way, being the victims of circumstance or whatever.

You know, some people might argue that's, it's kind of wrong to kind of divest yourself of personal responsibility or other people, for that matter. but I don't know I wouldn't care to make I think in the case of a clinical psychologist of someone who's got problems you just kind of do what you can so they can move on

and people respond differently to things I guess I'm probably invoking too much of a subjective adventure which is if somebody tried to tell me to imagine a fire review driving in a therapy session about a great personal tragedy I find it incredibly insulting

but But that's just me, right? That's maybe all the people really like imagining, according to her, the person responded very positively to this. So the world contains multitudes. But there is a final metaphor, Matt, that might be less controversial. Dr. Vieten, what are your parting words? I just want everyone at home to know that you have something inside of yourself that is available

to you. It's free. When I introduce people to their imagination, sometimes it's like I point out a small door in their house that they didn't know was there and open it and all of a sudden there's a giant new wing. And that wing of your house, your imagination, offers you information and energy that it's not frivolous. It's not just for kids. It's not just for artists. It is for you. And you may as well notice it because you are using it all day every day. Use it more frequently, use it purposefully, and also take the time to spend a little bit more time every day in this territory of imagination and it will bring more magic back into your life. Yeah, there you go. You don't have to be an artist. You don't have to be a, you know, we can all imagine and enjoy metaphors. Well, this is the key thing

and they emphasize it elsewhere too, that like everyone can do this, like imagination or be able to think of radically different new realities and so on. This isn't a special skill that only some people can do. Everyone can do it. It's a matter of accessing that particular part of you. And we all have it. And yeah, look, it's fluffy. It's very fluffy, arguably nonsense, right? But it's all vibes. And if you're accepted as vibes, then, like, this is the problem we always have with self-help, apart from the excessive monetization. And if you sort of put aside the fact it's based on metaphors and analogies and vibes and cosmic woo. They're kind of saying, take a moment, you know, reflect on your life,

think about what makes you happy and whether you're doing the right things that is promoting the kind of world you want to see for yourself and for other people. And if not, then make a change. And it's hard to knock that too hard. Sure. I think lots of the advice that is generally offered, throughout. It's not terrible. It's harmless and maybe beneficial to various people. But it does think it's very trite, very trite. Is there anybody that doesn't imagine things like? I know they

have a very particular approach to it. But even in their particular approach, they're like, some people imagine things in this way. And some people imagine it in that way. And it's like it's really not that complicated or something that I don't think it's something you need a book or a podcast to make you aware of. I agree with you Chris that it is trite and most of it

once you strip away the fancy language and you remove the woo. It's either basic common sense or it's kind of simple life advice that has been said in a hundred different ways for at least

100 years, right? But I think the thing is, is that some people just need to hear it. Some people, some people, or at least want to hear it. How many times? And maybe it's helpful for them to hear it. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, it's like getting a pep talk, you know what I mean? I guess so.

I'm sure it can be helpful, though I do think there are people who want to hear this on repeat endlessly. It's like the same thing as the, you know, the Rogan sphere and the podcast pros of re-talk about where they're just, endlessly regurgitating the theme five or six talking points that's right I mean look so I was making the defense but the the counter to the defense is and we've heard from people who have paid large amounts of money to to go to those self-help seminars and I've read some of the people on the decoding the gurus read it where they've described their experiences and what they describe is being in a bit of a situation of of lacking direction and feeling like they needed something,

spending a very large amount of money to get this stuff and then get continually upsold on other things they should be doing, other practices and whatever. But ultimately, because the advice is so trite and the little behavioral routines and so on are not fundamentally effective in materially changing your life, then it doesn't actually help. So I think like with anything, the answer is with evidence and science.

So there is a lot of research and a lot of energy that's been invested in trying to evaluate different kinds of counselling techniques, for instance, often struggling to find large differences between any particular method, it should be said, including placebos. I'm not aware of any of these extremely, you know, these sorts of techniques and methods, the secrets, the books, the courses or whatever, they're all sold as if this is life-changing. This is the secret key that unlocks everything. It's an incredibly powerful tool. Well, if it's so powerful, it should be quite easy.

And if you're making so much money from it and it's such a big business, then a bit like biomedical companies, you should be sponsoring independent trials that actually can demonstrate that any of this actually works. But I'm not aware of any of them actually doing that. No, no, the studies are not all even like pre-replication crisis levels of quality. They do reference some studies which I'll mention. But on that point, Matt, you made about, you know, the different types of, you know, imagination and whatnot. They had a neat little term for it, which I thought was very possibly.

They referred to it as the neurodiversity of imagination. So when people say I'm not very imaginative or worse, they're told you're not very original, you're not very imaginative. Usually what people mean is you don't know how to visualize things in great detail. You can't seem to visualize things that are different in great detail. The good news is there is a neurodiversity of imagination where each of us has our own particular unique brand of imagination, like a fingerprint. We each have our own profile. So you may not know that you are actually less of a visual imaginer and more of a social emotional imaginer. Those kinds of imaginers might not have very vivid images, but they sure can tell you how someone feels.

They can tell you how someone across from them might be feeling or thinking or if I do this behavior, this is how it's going to come across to the other person or this is the the response you might get if you do that. They're just really good at that. Then there's other senses besides vision, like even smell imagination and gustatory imagination, you know, chefs are really good at imagining what something might taste like. And it's part of how they imagine their new concoctions that they make. So what I want people to know, too, is all these imagination profiles are strengths. We need every type of imaginer. We need the fantastical visual. vivid imaginer, but we also need that practical imaginer who knows exactly how things will fit.

Apparently, I'm an anti-dragon imaginer. Indeed. My particular, but yeah, yeah, so the general thing that I'm at, you know, the fingerprint mention makes it very clear that the important thing is that everybody feels that they're special and unique and they don't fit into a particular box, right? everybody is a unique snowflake with their own unique approach to imagination.

And that means that like everything, every different type of thing about thinking about paints is the type of imagination. And it's just this is, I think, the message that you get in a lot of the self-helpic world that constantly reinforces that the most fascinating subject in the world is you. and you're not like anyone else, you're completely unique, and any attempt to pigeonhole you into some general category, like it's just going to feel.

And we see the same thing of like Rogan and all of them, you know, this is part of what breeds the resistance to ever being treated like you're not the most special person in the world, right? You know, I think this way, to a certain extent, lies the fertile ground for vaccine hesitancy. Oh, yeah. You know?

Look, this is a key thing I'm degrading. Complementary to alternative medicine, of course, which I think the interviewee here actually has some track record in studying. But, you know, a big part of the appeal is that what you've got is customized medicine that is very personal, that is tailored towards you and listens to you and your personal experiences and so on, and that a bespoke thing is created just for you. And, you know, I'm sorry to compare them to anti-vaxes, but yes, I mean, that is a big appeal for Joe Rogan preferring his bespoke cocktail of things rather than a generic vaccine because it does make you feel special and it

feels better, feels better to have something that is tailor-made just for the very special individual that is you. Well, this connects into self-actualization, our favorite topic. And I've got a couple of trips that I like, you know, the self-actualization vibe that you might have picked up on. Well, before we get on to the topic of self-actualization, I think it's about time that people had a little break. And no people are itching. to get into the topic of self-actualization. But that's been a lot of high-level ideas, and it seems only fair to get people a little bit of time

to properly absorb them. So we're going to call the day here for part one of this decoding. In part two, we get a lot more into the various techniques and how well they can be put into practice by both Matt and I. So you have that to look forward to. And so part two will be out on the main feed at about a week. If you simply can't wait and need to hear more insights into imagination, more insights into manifestation and the techniques that you can arrive to self-actualize your most

authentic self, then you can join the Patreon where part two is already available. And just one other quick note is that you may have noticed the audio quality being a bit different in this episode. That's related to me recording in a manga cafe because my office is under renovation. So apologies for the sound quality, but it'll be fixed in the next while when I get back into the room. So you only have to put up for it for a couple of episodes. And yeah, something to look forward. too. Just imagine it, see it in your mind's eye, visualize it and perhaps you'll be able to

manifest it into reality shortly. Okay, chow for now. Bye bye.