Decoding the Gurus - Mel Robbins, Part 2: Matt & Chris manifest their fully actualised future selves

Episode Date: August 30, 2026

In Part Two of our decoding of Mel Robbins, things take a practical turn. But before we get to preoccupied with all that, why don't you pause, take a breath, and, in the context of your body, write down ten ways to make a bad situation worse. Your focus should then be on doing the exact opposite! For example, if one of your answers is to not listen to the podcast, then start listening, right now!Next, before hitting play, let's work on building a daily manifestation practice. Write down five things you want, then sit in your body, picture yourself doing all the annoying steps, and flood yourself with the feelings of future success. This needs to happen every day.One more thing: now imagine someone who is one million per cent behind you and ask them what is the best way for you to consume the podcast. They can be alive, dead, or fictional. Greek messenger Gods are permitted. You can even imagine your mother, if you like, but better. Alternatively, why not meet your future self at the front door and ask how listening to the podcast helped them to become so wise, slim, and successful?There are other options too. You can manifest a legion of ancestors, reconfigure a difficult afternoon by getting sushi, and even transcend the limits of possibility with an elephant murder themed visualization!You might think this sounds a bit like (too much) planning, mental rehearsal, and just trying to be a bit more positive. But it's much more than that. These mental activities are actually powered by very hard science. Ignore the tiny samples, one-tailed tests, and suspicious p-values... that all sounds like negative thinking.And now you are finally prepared so choose your technique, release the brake, and visualise the download button. Your future self is waiting. They have a cool scar and some bad news about your future children.LinksThe Mel Robbins Podcast: “World Leading Psychologist: How to Manifest Anything & Create the Life You Want” with Dr Cassandra VietenCassandra Vieten: Imagine That: Transform How You Think, Feel, and Live with the Science of ImaginationInstitute of Noetic Sciences: Origins StoryHershfield, H. E., Goldstein, D. G., Sharpe, W. F., Fox, J., Yeykelis, L., Carstensen, L. L., & Bailenson, J. N. (2011). Increasing saving behavior through age-progressed renderings of the future self. Journal of marketing research, 48(SPL), S23-S37. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3949005/Robalino, J. D., Fishbane, A., Goldstein, D. G., & Hershfield, H. E. (2023). Saving for retirement: A real-world test of whether seeing photos of one’s future self encourages contributions. Behavioral Science & Policy, 9(1), 1-9. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/23794607231190607

Hello and welcome to the coding the gurus part two of our Mel Robbins episode. It's just me here at the minute, which is unusual and weird. I feel too exposed speaking, but I thought I would just, you know, pop back to remind everybody that where we left off was that we'd explored various aspects of the science of imagining. and manifestation and other ways to freeze positive mental thinking. But we still had quite a while to go. In particular, there were various practical techniques that we had yet to explore.

And we also wanted to get into the topic of self-actualization. You know, they won't let you talk about that. We haven't covered it enough. So that's what we're going to start up from here. and we're going to lead in with a clip coming in one minute. Then you'll hear me, Chris Kavana and the other guy, Matthew Brown, offering our thoughts and feedback. You know the drill.

Here we go. Where do I want to be in my life? How do I want to show up? And the more we visualize that we write about it, we draw it, we think about it, we conjecture about it, we tell other people about it, the realer and realer it becomes to our mind and to our brain. And what we're trying to do is get everything in there rowing in the same direction. Because a lot of times people are moving into the future.

They have one foot on the gas. They have one foot on the brake. And they're like, why am I not getting anywhere? What's that noise? And you don't even know you have the one foot on the brake. So to keep that foot on the gas and to take the risk of lifting the foot off the brake, You've got to keep telling your mind and your brain, this is in fact where we're going. This is going to happen.

I am going to be okay. I'm not going to lose something important by pursuing this dream or this goal. And that's what people are often scared of, is if I pursue this dream, I am going to lose something. I'm going to be, I'm going to look foolish. I'm going to betray my family who said the only thing you should do. has become an accountant to doctor or a lawyer. So many things. And so also having a lot of compassion for yourself about the things that you are unconsciously imagining might go wrong to hold that part of yourself closely and to say, look, I know you're scared, but we are doing this.

How can I make you feel more comfortable? Because it's non-negotiable. We are going to manifest this thing that we're working toward. But be aware, there's going to be a part of you that's like, I can't do that. You know, how can you take care of that part? Okay. So that's the thing that interferes with people succeeding at what they want to achieve, fear of failure, self-sabotage. I guess that's pretty much it, isn't it?

Driving with one foot on the brake map, you know? We're in Matthew McConaughey's car. We're riding shark up, and we've lent over and are putting our foot on the break. I think he used that a taxium metaphor. Yeah, we're grinding the gears. Yeah, okay. Well, what do you think? Is this something that people do? Is this a genuine problem? A thing that interferes with people achieving their dreams?

Yes, I mean, sure it is. Like, people have disbelief and doubt and uncertainty and they're worried about how people will react to things and all that kind of thing. If you take it in the positive sense of like, Matt, maybe you want to pick up salsa, but you're afraid of all the other people are going to laugh at you and say, look at Matt creaky hips. I would be. he can't shake it like he like he ought to right and all your friends are going to tell stories about oh my master and salsa ha ha ha ha right now that's the kind of thing

where I think this can help or somebody wants to take a chance and you know maybe I want to move to a new country or whatever and people are like oh that's very hard but you need to self-believe the you know the push to go and do it on the other home every time maybe it's my nature but every time people to give these kind of pep talks

I also imagine people that are like planning to have an affair or quit their job and for all their money and their new clown shoes. They've developed something like there are also ideas that people have that people are going to be like, well, maybe you shouldn't. There's a little voice in your head is saying, you know, actually that's a bad idea. That is going to damage our family and stuff. And it is good to listen to self-doubt at times. and concerns about how others might be impacted by your actions. So I don't know. That's just my general thing with the self-help genre

is that it's very, very me-me-focused, right? It's me, me, me, me, me, me. And it very rarely seems to consider the broader social web of interactions that, you know, your self-actualization is taking part in, which can be, you know, can lead to significant. disruption but maybe that's just me being a negative nelly from the UK yeah yeah yeah well it is definitely individualistic and self-oriented not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that I suppose but I think it's speaking to a different kind of audience than what you might be imagining

I think kind of like impulsive like incredibly devil-may-care type people prone to risk-taking and not the audience for this it tends to be more new erotic worry warts. Well, that's my, that's my exact. Well, that's you. Yeah. It's me. Especially that we're speaking to me.

But, well, I guess not. I mean, like when you consider it, I'm out here, a lone Northern Irishman in the wilderness in Japan, who did study of religions as is PhD and stuff. I've took my chances. I've rolled my dice. Yeah.

Yeah. Don't sound too impressed. Fair, fair. Fair, fair. I mean, look, again, it's kind of generic self-help, right? Believe in yourself. Don't self-sabotage. Imagine the future that you want to have and then strive for it without, you know, doubting yourself and, you know, getting distracted. So, yeah, I mean, take it for what it is. See, set up with much more joy to read than your... Yeah, this is what I'm not in the self-help business. Yeah, you know, quite. This is where I'm always stuck when we cover self-help gurus because I just imagine somebody coming to you and me

for life advice and ask shrugging going, like Alan Partridge. Do what you want. Do it or not do it, whatever. It's up to you. Not very helpful. So I keep reminding myself, there's just people who want a pep talk, you know,

who need a pep talk. Well, sure. Would you like the hearing all of pep talk? Yep, yeah. They're doing me good, I'm sure. You know, it reminds me of a passage in your blockbuster bestseller. Imagine that. It's in the introduction. And I want to read to you from your book and have you dig a little deeper into the power of imagination. You say that your primary goal with your work, Dr. Veden, is to help people re-enchant their lives, to reenliven. in their world, spark new hope, and reveal new possibilities through the science and practice of imagination. To help you escape the confines of your current reality tunnel and envision hopeful

futures while experiencing more awe, wonder, and the ability to chart a new course for yourself in society. Because the antidote to despair isn't just hope. It's the skill to generate hope. So the first thing I wanted to ask you after reading that is what is a reality tunnel and how do I know I'm in one? Right, right. So this is a concept that came up in the 60s and this was when consciousness was starting to explode and people were doing psychedelics and this was like Timothy Leary and his colleagues were like, hey, man, you're stuck in a reality tunnel. So it sounds kind of like dude, right? But it's true. Like we are actually stuck.

in a reality tunnel. And all of us have our own reality tunnel. What we think is real, what we think is possible, what we think is impossible. Did that hit you? Did it hit me? Well, yes, no. The thing, like, I think I'm okay with the pep talk. Sometimes people need a pep talk. Where I start to raise my eyebrows is the pseudoscientific language mixed in with the mystical stuff. You know, there's constant hints that this is connecting to a a magical realm and there is something going on here beyond mere, you know, helpful advice. And it's grounded in science and it's also connected with the metaphysical realm. Right.

On the other hand, you know, when you strip that stuff away, she's pointing out that, you know, as you get older, you know, you do build in a lot of assumptions. Oh, I can't possibly quit my job. Oh, you know, we can't do this or we shouldn't do. that like the realm of the possible kind of tends to compress a little bit for a lot of people and yeah there are occasional people who throw the cards in the air and you know shout caution to the wind and rush off and do very different things but i guess a lot of people do feel a little bit like they're they're on a track that they might have fallen into and maybe they need a bit

of inspiration to jump the track. Oh, what a nice thought. Well, you pointed out about the tendency to connect things to scientific sounding terminology and whatnot and this being an issue. And I highlighted that there's an issue for me that self-help is very self-focused, very, very self-focused. And this next step combines both of those. Well, going back to the very beginning, where we talked about the fact that 70% of the people

who listen to the show around the world feel like they're reacting to life. What I love about what you're teaching us is so many of us are looking outside of ourselves for the signals when transformation is an inside activity. Right. And these tools help you turn inward and go deeper inward into your subconscious, into your spirit, into your heart, into the things that you can't explain and tap into those signals for guidance rather than constantly looking outside yourself for them. You are one of the most cited researchers alive on the conscious mind. What is consciousness? Oh, I question that's dear dear heart lap. Yeah, I love it when we get onto that. But again, the bigging up of the CV, and it is overblown. Again, this is the thing that kind of annoys me.

and you see it with all the gurus we cover, which is pretensions to a kind of academic, scientific status, which they don't really have. And I wouldn't be harping on this if it wasn't for the fact that Mel Roberts is always bringing it up, that it was in the show notes, and it keeps coming up. And it's, yeah, like, when we spoke to our trio of virologist, you really didn't see that kind of big up,

because they don't need to. They're the real thing. They don't need that kind of hyperbole. So, you know, who Mel was talking to here is not one of the leading experts in how incognitive function, how the mind works, how consciousness works, how imagination works. No, she's got a kind of a limited CV with a very, a small number of empirical works and kind of clinical practitioner stuff. not that there's anything wrong with that, but it is overblown. Well, you know, with that disparagement, I think it's very far that we allow her to show you up for your reductionist approach. And let's hear what is consciousness?

Consciousness is what you experience, what you believe, what you intend, your intuition, your inner life. It's, you know, at the very basic level, just everything you're aware of, But then there's sort of a bigger C consciousness where it's what you don't even know that you're assuming, believing, and intending. And so one of the things about becoming more conscious is to start to pay attention to, what are all of my beliefs, what are my values, what are my commitments, what's inside of me, how do I bring my consciousness into the world every day? And so I worked at the Institute of Noetic Sciences for about 18 years, and this was founded by Apollo 14 astronaut Edgar Mitchell, who was the sixth man to walk on the moon. And when he was on his way back to Earth from space, he's viewing the Earth and the stars and the sun and the moon. And he had this epiphany where he recognized that my consciousness isn't just mine, but I'm actually connected to the molecules that make. up my body are the same as the ones in the stars and in the space capsule and the sun and the

earth and there's this deeper sense of interconnectedness. So there is an outer world and we all know what that is, this table, the lights, the walls, things that are real. Then there's an inner world. Is that your understanding of consciousness as a fellow psychologist? Well, in her defense, I think if somebody asked me to give a definition of consciousness, I'd give a very bad one. Would you give a similar one? No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't rattle off a bunch of synonyms of, you know, it's everything we can feel and they're aware of and our ideas and our aspirations and a whole bunch of stuff like that

and then segue into, but, you know, it's all connected. And when you go up above the earth and you see the earth and you realize that all consciousness could well be connected because we're part of this amazing universe. It's, yeah, it's not a very academic or scientific definition of consciousness. You ever heard of the Institute of Noetic Sciences before, by the way? I have not. In fact, I only had a vague idea of what Noetic meant. I have to admit, I had to look that up.

Yeah, it's an institute that was set up by a former astronaut, Edgar Mitchell. and the description on Wikipedia, just read it, it says, the Institute conducts research on topics such as psychic capabilities, channeling, mind matter interaction, energy healing, intention, consciousness, and spontaneous remission. They have a long history of studying psychokinesis and survival of consciousness after death.

So I think that gives you a little taste of the approach. It says researchers associated with it include Dean Reid and Robert Sheldrick. Right. So I just note that the self-help world, whenever it's presenting as, you know, we've got a psychologist here, it's very often a psychologist who is very, shall we say, friendly towards the more mystical side of things. And that is definitely the case here. Yeah, indeed. Like this parapsychology, right? Yeah. Yeah. These these. topics of telekinesis and stuff. And I guess today is, you know, looking at the sorts of stuff that she's into fits fits the bill as well, obviously. And, you know, that's kind of, I get away,

that's fine. You know what I mean? Do whatever you want, you know. I mean, let's be clear, Matt, it's fine, but it is not, like the standards in the field of parapsychology and the genetic sciences are incredibly bad, incredibly bad. So if that's the basis for your self-help advice, I question. Is your commitment to repost research methodologies? Let's just say that. Yeah. And I just don't think it's the case that in order to do self-help,

you have to get into this kind of woo, right? Just like you don't have to do a multi-level marketing scheme when you do self-help or all the other things that they tend to do. You could ground it in what we know about human motivation and behavior and happiness and so on. You could crowd it in that. But I think, just like with complementary and alternative medicine, it is this other sort of stuff is much more appealing to people.

It's the goddess is dancing and being connected to magical realms. Yeah. And when studies are mentioned, it's like this. Okay, this is a, you know, we have the Alexander Bell story, which we fact check. And this is reference to actual research. What is the one thing more than any other thing that you did to get you to get you to where you are today? And you'll be surprised at what they answer. You know, they'll give you some direction.

The great thing is you don't have to do this once. You can actually have that future self be your ally, your best friend, your golf caddy, you know, sort of like, hey, I wouldn't do that. That's going to get you into a sand trap. Like they can become a coach for you as you move into your future. it can become a sort of a true north on the compass. And it can help you make decisions now. Like, is this taking me closer to my future self or further away from my future self? And people might think that sounds, I don't know, you know, fru-fru or woo-woo or something like that, right? But we know from the science that when people imagine their futures, they act differently, they show up differently, they make different decisions. And so there's very interesting data showing like college students and they have them meet their future self.

And they actually take a photo of them and they age the photo. And so they see themselves what they might look like when they're older. And then they ask them, you know, do you want to start a savings account for the future? And the kids who saw their future selves want to save more money for the future. So I have a little look into this research, right? She doesn't cite a specific study here, but I find a bunch of studies that are related to this topic. For example, there is a paper. It's always hard when people are citing these kind of studies, you know, because they could mention any number of them.

But there's one from 2011, increasing saving behavior for age progressed renderings of the future self. Journal of Marketing, Research 48. Okay. And indeed, this does talk about showing people images of their future themselves, right? And that the more age they are, the more that they donate. But as is always the case, Matt, always the case. When I look into the actual details of the study, you know, like I download it and go through the methods. You're talking about a series of studies where.

Just for examples. In study one, you've got 50 participants, and they're getting them to meet the future selves or whatever the case might be. The key outcome, they find this difference. But when I look at the difference, they're using the T-Kest, which is a thing where you compare the means between two curves.

P-value 1-Tield, 0.035. People will have heard me at harpoon up like this before, but whenever P-values are close to 0.0.05, it's a worrying sign when there is a small sample size and there is well-known issues with researcher to raise a freedom because for those who don't know, there's a cutoff point in psychology which is P under 0.05, which is described as statistically significant. If you get under that, bad researchers interpreted as proving that the thing is real,

whereas if you got over it, it's not real. And it's not the actual measure itself. It's how it's used because there's this thing called P hacking where people run multiple analyses until they find one by chance or by creative statistical analysis where it gets under this value because it's kind of like rolling the dice, one in 20 times, even if there was no relationship, you will get under that by just rather than chance, right? Just like rolling that two sixes on the dice or this good thing. And that's one study, right?

So you might say, well, come on, Chris, like p equals no point not free. Okay, sure. But it's going to happen, you know. One tiled. One tiled. Yes. One tiled. So that's an unusual thing to do. Normally these days, people just use two-tiled. Yes, because it's more severe. And if they've done a two-tile test, it wouldn't have been significant.

But anyway, go on. Well, they did run another analysis, another one-tale one, and it's p equals 0.04, this one. Okay. The next study, you have 21 participants this time. The key comparison, P equals 0.4. 0.056 in this case. Didn't quite make it. Even one child.

Yeah, even worth one deal. Next one, 42 students, key value, 0.0.023. Okay. And so it goes on. Every key value, the next one, p equals 0.029. Now, statisticians amongst our smart

we tell you this is the equivalent of winning multiple lotteries if you have these sample sizes and you consistently find P values at this critical range. Yes. So it's very likely PHAG. This is just one of the studies. There's many, many others in this being,

and they're all of similar levels of quality. They're all showing, you know, the same pattern of low sample sizes, likely P-Hack results. And then they enter the discourse. And it can be for the self-help. It can also be for, you know, a guest on Joe Rogan. It can be for Gadsad. talking about business research, they enter in these like anecdotes and it's, I just, it just

affects me off. That's right. So in the discourse it becomes research shows science has proven that if you get people to imagine a brighter future for themselves or think of the future, then they go out and achieve that. But I think there's a more fundamental problem, which is, so just let me check. So the outcome in these studies was they gave them a questionnaire perhaps after the intervention and ask them about their intentions? Yes, so it's like hypothetical, you know, future. If you, there's a mind, how much would you? Yes.

That's right. So the reality check here is if you get people to think about their future, right? Think about when you're older. Think about saving. Think about, you know, whatever. Imagine yourself at a later stage in your life. And then you say, ask them questions about, preparing for that in terms of saving or whatever,

then people tick a slightly higher point on the liquid scale. They take a three rather than a two, something like that. Even if all of those results were perfectly statistically significant, it's like that's not surprising at all. If you get people to think about anything, and then you give them a questionnaire and ask them, well, how important is that thing to you, you're going to see a bump.

I'm sure they would find a significant result if they did it again with the higher power. But what it doesn't actually support is in this interview, the broader thing, which is this thesis you've got about the power of imagination, if you visualize the things you want, then it's going to help you achieve them. That's a very different thing from what these studies showed, even if they are totally statistically significant.

Yes, yes. And there was a, there was another big, study that I came across, like a randomized thesis study, 50,000 people saving for retirement in Mexico. And this was looking at a whiteweller and, you know, looking at an aging filter would lead to differences. And the difference that they reported from this was 1.5% who made one-time contributions in the control group versus 1.7 in the treatment group.

So, you know, just, and I can't actually. tell the P value because it's only reported as under 0.05 in the paper. So anyway, you know this is a hobby horse of mine, but it's just, it doesn't matter anyway, right? Because it's all about the narrative. But it fits the pattern mat that I want to hammer that every single time we look up a study that people reference in a decoding. It's either misrepresented, overstated, or the general rule called the nature of it is not. factored in to the analysis. Well, sometimes as in this case, all three.

Yeah. Well, anyway, so there was a clip that made me think of the sense makers and the way that we've talked about how they think through things. So I wonder if you agree with me on that, Matt, whether there's a parallel here or am I drawing the comparison too far? When we first got you to agree to come on the show, and I started digging into your book and your work, I immediately thought of this quote in Trevor Noah,

who I love, his number one New York Times bestseller, Born a Crime. And I want to read to you from Noah's book. It's on page 73, where he's talking about imagination. We tell people to follow their dreams, but you can only dream of what you can imagine. And depending upon where you came from, your imagination can be quite limited. Growing up in Soweto, our dream was to put another room on our house.

Maybe have a driveway. Maybe someday a cast iron gate at the end of the driveway. Because that is all we knew. But the highest rung of what's possible is far beyond the world you can see. I think intellectually we know that, but if you're in a moment in your life where you feel very stuck and you feel that there's a lot of evidence that this is all that there is and that this is what your life is and what it's always going to feel like. Dr. Vieten, what do you want to say to the person who really believes that the highest rung of what's possible in your way,

your life is where you are. When we feel stuck, it's often accompanied by the feeling of, I don't know what to do. I don't know what's next. I don't, I got nothing. And the linear, logical, ego mind really hates that, does not like it. But there's another part of us that that when we are in a place of I don't know, I have no idea what to do, imagination does like that. And so you've probably seen the book by Pema Shodran, comfortable with uncertainty. And I had a teacher that was very important to me,

Angelus Arian, who would say, spend more time in the land of I don't know. But I don't want to be in that land, because I don't like feeling like I don't know. What do you think, Matt? Am I drawing too long-of-all with their sense-making comparison. Well, spell it out for me. How is that like the sense making? Well, I kind of feel like, you know, the sense makers, they like to give each other metaphors or words. They're like,

what about this concept? You know, what about reverence? And the other one says, yeah, that makes me think about like awe and inspiration. And, you know, the, the etymology of inspire comes from the right. And they go, they reason like that, right? And then they tie it to, the, political views or whatever the case might be. In this case, it strikes me that, like, this conversation is operating by inspirational quotes. Here, I came across this passage that talks about limits to imagination. What do you think about that? And then the response is, yeah, well, I know that imagination likes not knowing what's coming next. And there's another quote from another teacher who talks about the wonders of uncertainty. And my teacher told

me this freest, right? I would spend time in the land of, and it's, it's like that thing where it's like kind of just jumping from quotes and it, it would be like me and you kind of quoting inspirational posters at each other like, I saw this cat, right? There was hanging and it said, just hanging there. That's what it feels like to me. Maybe that's a bit mean. That's good advice, Chris. That's good advice. Hang in there. What does it mean you think of? It makes me think of a cat. Well, we're too concrete. I mean, well, that's, That's the right analogy for this episode. It's basically a string of inspirational posters in interview format.

You know, just like an inspirational poster, it's good advice to hang in there. You know, there's probably another one about, you know, a guy standing on a mountain and maybe there's another mountain further up or there's the green fields that if you could just get over the other hills, you'll see them. I mean, basically these homespun wisdom dressed up a bit as if it's all part of a scientific theory. you know the advice is kind of inspirational poster advice which is typically fine right as far as inspirational poster advice goes the issue is i guess is that it's it's dressed up as if it's uh

an insight yeah that's right it's a big insight and it's part of a framework like it's not just common sense like don't jump too quickly to conclusions be a little bit comfortable with uncertainty sometimes the clear path is not going to reveal itself immediately and you have to float around a little bit with uncertainty to you to figure out which way to go. I give exactly the same advice to my PhD students and graduate students, like in the first six months or so of their PhD where they want to clear out straight away and I encourage them, look, it's okay to stumble around a bit and explore a whole bunch of blind davenues and so on. So like, that's fine, but it's not, like, I've given that advice, but I'm not pretending that advice stems from some

fully worked out theory of how to achieve success, right? There's nothing more than kind of good, old fashioned advice. I wonder if you said that like your appreciation when you're advised them, you know, the Dalai Lama once said that you know, uncertainty is the soil of invention or something, right? I wonder it would have actually

for some people they'd be like, really? You know, like they'd enjoy that because I think the answer is that a lot of people do, you know, but as is the popularity of inspirational quotes attributed to people who never said them, right? Like that. Like it feels better

Right? It feels more, has more gravitas if you say, rather than this just being my advice, here's my opinion about what generally works, what might be a good idea. If you make out it's part of a scientific or even better, a scientific and a... With them from the Stoics. Yeah, and a metaphysical slash spiritual framework, which, you know, if you understand it properly, then you distill it down, then this is the message that you need to hear. That gives that basic advice a lot more gravitas. So I guess that's why they do it. You've alleged, Matt, that they're dressing up like things that people know in kind of pseudo-profound ways and passing it off as esoteric insights or like very scientific insights. I'm just going to play a

clip to see whether that's fair or not. Well, so how about the only thing that I can do to be successful is work at a 40, 50, 60 hour a week job. That's what it is. That's the deal. That's the only way that anybody's ever successful. That's not true? No, there are tons of different people who do work in many, many, many different ways. So some of the limits that we think are hard and fast are either individually imagined or collectively imagined, and you can decide, I want to imagine something different. But even more important, there are real constraints.

There is reality. But throughout our day, when we encounter our reality, I like to call it Swiss cheese reality. And so we see some things, we observe them, but there are a lot of gaps. So let's say I run into a new person at my job and she walks up and she's really well dressed and extremely well put together. And I look at her and immediately I'm observing, but then I'm also imagining, oh, this is somebody who really has their shit together or, you know, they know what they're doing or they come from a lot of privilege or they probably think they're better than me or, you know, I mean, I'm already off to the races. I'm not even noticing that imagination. I'm seeing that as reality, but I'm weaving that in to what reality really is. What could I do instead? I could decide that the threads of imagination that I weave into my reality, I want them to be something different. I want to imagine that everybody's

pretty much doing their best, that most people are excited about helping if they are asked for help. As I was sitting here thinking about the example about meeting a new colleague that's dressed in the nines, you don't stop to consider that your opinion and immediate impression of this person is something you've imagined. You've imagined it. Do you not? Do people not realize it? You meet someone and you meet comedic, enough judgments avoid them. Like, nobody has ever realized that is. necessarily true.

Your judgment, like, my, no, no, no, no, hold on, you don't get it, right? You meet someone and you're friends. No, no. If they're well-dressed, that they're privileged and they're a real go-getter, they probably think they're better than me. But that's just fact, right, when I see someone, right? No, no, no, no, yeah. Okay, right, right.

You don't have another stood. You're imagining. That's an imagination, that's right. Those are ideas actually in my head. I don't know. So we are making fun, right? But the point to me is also Mel Robbins, you know,

was playing a reporter because when she says, like, you don't have to work 50 or 60 hours, that's not the only path to success. She says, no? What? You mean there's another way? Come on. Come on.

Like, the internet is so full of promises that you can make such and such and that of money by working from home six hours a week or whatever. Like people know that some people know that some people can earn money without necessarily working. I mean, that it's like, what? How can you do it?

Yes, with the power of imagination, Chris. You don't have to work 60 hours a week. With the power of imagination, you'll be able to imagine a way to achieve all your financial dreams and just work maybe 10 hours a week. Imagine that. Maybe, maybe if you imagine through your boundaries,

but the constraints are real math. However, the reaction, you know, like when Brett Weinstein reacts to Joy, Peter Sain saying that's incredibly creative and stunningly you know, important to what you've said there. This is, I think, Mel Robbins' version of that. And it's a

helpful example because when you hear the word imagination, I tend to think about Disney or Avatar or these worlds that don't exist, but you're challenging me and the person who's here

listening to consider that a lot of the opinions that you have about yourself or the way that the world works or who other people are or are not, are examples of things you've imagined and you just live as though it's fact. Yeah, we are inherently storytellers and we only have a little bit of the available information at any given point in time. And so we can say to ourselves, I want to retrain the way I tell a story about my life. I don't want this to be my story anymore. Yeah, so Mel Robbins is very much the kind of interviewer who's bigging up the guest and also playing the role of the

supposed audience who's like what i just thought it was much more simple than that i never imagined that imagination could be something other than like disney like made up stuff at a fairground you're saying imagination means us imagining potential you know things in our own lives that don't currently exist? Wow, I think Mel. I'm sure that isn't a massive revelation for Mel Robbins. But, you know, again, so I guess this is the dark side of imagination, right? Up till now, it's like, all, imagination, it's fantastic. You need more imagination in your life. But actually, every time you're making assumptions and, you know, maybe the negative things you're thinking, whatever, that's also you imagining things. And so what you should do is basically

imagine positive things. Everyone out there is trying to do their best. And, you know, and you make up a story for your own life, which is a positive story with a happy ending. Yes, like Yuval Noah Harari, they like emphasizing this thing. You know, we're storytellers. The story is the most important aspect and, you know, reconfigure your story and you can reconfigure your world. This is like a really popular thing that I hear a lot these days. But you pointed out, you know, it's also encompassing the negative aspects from imagination.

nothing really focused on for that work. So actually, they move on quite quickly there. I haven't go to this. Dr. Vieten, what are the specific mindset tools that you're going to teach us today that can help you stop reacting to your life and start creating the life that you want? Today I'm going to talk about visualization,

manifestation, and imagination. How you can visualize, manifest, you know, do all of these practices to help you be more skillful about your imagination once you've recognized the science and you know you have it and it's influential. And the third is to tap into a territory of your being that is not your usual way of being that holds information and energy for you that you cannot access any other way. Oh my God, I love this. Let's just jump right in. Once you recognize the science, I just, I just want to stop saying that. Like, I'm okay with people having, you know, the somewhat flaky woo versions of what you need for a perfect life is the three T's, whatever.

But, you know, stop saying that once you recognize the science, you'll understand that what I'm telling you is the absolute most important thing you should be doing. and it's stuff like manifesting, and it's all of this telekinesis and consciousness extending into the future and so on. No, no, no. Well, they talk about different techniques, and they spent quite a while explaining that imagination is not just visualizing things, Matt.

It's other things. You can use your other senses, right? You can imagine smelling something. You can imagine telling the different story or these kind of examples, it accompanies the reaction of, oh, you mean imagination? Isn't just visual? It's not only that. All of these truth bombs are a complete revelation, supposedly, to Mel.

Yeah, yeah. And then there's visualization, you know, talking about, there's actually quite a bit throughout us where they talk about, you know, there they were saying, let's get into the techniques. And part of the self-help world. is that you have to give these little pitty techniques or short exercises that you can do that can improve your life. So let's see, I've got a collection of them. Here's one. And here's a super fun exercise because part of imagination is also what we call thought experiments.

And that does kind of use the thinking mind. So let's say that you are stuck in a situation that is really, really difficult, whether it's a job or family matter, whatever it is, write down 10 ways that you could make it worse. You could make it worse? Write down 10 ways that you could make the situation worse, that you could make the situation worse. And the exercise is after you write down the 10 ways, flip it, what are the things that you, what's the opposite of the thing you wrote that would make it worse? And it is fascinating. because you come up with answers that you wouldn't come up with by just saying, what should I do? You force yourself to be like, okay, let me make this as bad as it could possibly be.

I could light the house on fire. That'd be pretty good. What's the opposite of lighting the house on fire? That must be pretty great. It must be a pretty great strategy. But what is it, though? Well, pretty nice of fire. Not starting a fire, I guess, but no, it's pretty nice. It is obvious. That is a fair retardation. No, no, I got to say this is. This is the theme of a Seinfeld episode.

Remember with George Costanza, which had the summer of George or something, and he realized that in his entire life, he'd been following his instincts, and he was just going to do the opposite of that, and everything worked out for him. He's so good. But in the real world, in not in sitcoms,

I mean, just think about that. How on earth would that work? Like, the worst, if I've got a meeting tomorrow with some important colleagues, the worst thing I could do would be to smear excrement all over myself and conduct the meeting upside down. Now, what, I mean, that may not be the worst, but it would be, it's a pretty bad way to conduct it. I mean, how does imagining the opposite of that help you do the thing better? Firstly, you're oriented towards a vertical, might.

Yes, that's true. That's true. You set me up for that. I'm not going to say that. Yeah, well, so you're right. But, you know, different people, different minds. It's a kaleidoscope of different colors out there. So maybe for some people, this is a way to get out of their fun. But, you know, these tools, Matt, they're building on the existing repertoire of tools that, you know, self-help people have.

For example. What's helpful in the way you just described that is that visualization, feels like a very accessible tactical tool. And as I was listening to you, especially talking about one foot on the gas and one foot on the break, so relatable, manifestation all of a sudden seemed like this very necessary thing for you to do for yourself every day in modern life

because there is so much external noise from the world, from friends, from family, telling you who you should be, what you should be doing, where you should be by now, and manifesting, at least for me, is a very intentional daily practice for me to get clear about who I am, what I want, how I want to feel, and where I'm actually going. And in a world that's constantly telling you not to be the person that you really feel internally you want to be, it's vital because it's the only way that you tune into yourself and you can

hear yourself. God down. If you're not manifesting, you're not a manifestation practice. You're pretty screwed. It sounds like. Yeah. Yeah.

There was some philosopher. I forget one of those pretty hardcore German ones who, I think one of his main themes was how people are basically living a lie and basically being a person that society expects of them and trying to please people that don't even care about them and they don't care about for no reason, right? Sounds like a nice guy. People who care more about philosophy, who's listening, would remember who that is. But, you know, that's the thing that comes through in a lot of self-help, right?

Society has always expectations on you. Other people have demands and obligations put upon you, and they're crowding out the space for you to be the true. The true you, that's right. Your real self is not getting a chance to express itself. And I get that that's an appealing thing, especially to adolescents. I think adolescents would get that feeling a lot. but I mean if I think of myself

like if I think about what my society and the people around me expect of me really right they expect me to take out the trash they expect me to turn up to me they expect me to do my job responsibly record podcasts record podcasts that's right like the list goes on and you know it's all it's all stuff

I really ought to be doing you know what I mean like like I don't think I do you think that you know I don't know maybe I don't have but it's both isn't the Matt, like, there's unreasonable demands that people can make of view and the expectations that people have. And there are reasonable ones. And there are ones that. So it's like, it's that kind of thing where they are presenting that. Like, you know, this, this is the main objection I have with the self-help movement. There's the notion that like society is not

telling you that you need to focus on yourself and like become self-actualized and develop. And like, it is all of the media that we cover is telling you that endlessly, especially American-based media. It's in the movies. It's in the podcast. It's in the self-help books and all that kind of thing. But they act as if nobody's ever told you that it's important for you to develop yourself. I'm like, actually, in modern society, people endlessly tell you that.

Yeah, that's right. I agree with you. And I think it's a thing that people just culturally don't recognize. Like everyone lives inside of a culture and we live inside a Western individual is weird, you know, culture. And I like the culture, it's fine or whatever. But one of the values that our culture absolutely has is self-expression and basically individual autonomy to as large extent as possible doing and expressing yourself in any way that you feel like, including free speech. Like that is a cultural value.

I'm being authentic. Yeah, that's right. Authentic to yourself, right? And self-discovery, all of that stuff. and, you know, like that theme of you should be dancing like nobody's watching. Like he said, is in so much of modern media as well. And it keeps getting presented as you're not allowed to talk about. No one will tell you this.

Yeah, no one will tell you. We'll shut up about it. That's right. It is absolutely cultural value. And to a large extent, I guess everyone is doing that as much as possible within the constraints of reality. You know, I have to, when I set up the meetings with honest students, I have to conduct myself within certain parameters. I can't just do whatever all that. And that is, that is entirely appropriate. You shouldn't be in a thong. No, I shouldn't be in a thong and I shouldn't be saying,

hey, let's just, let's just talk about a finger painting or something now instead of whatever. No, you know, society does have demands on us and that's fine and normal because we live in a real world. In this society. We're not children. George Kestan's a sprung at church. That's right. This is a society. Well, so, you know, she talked there that she, Mel Robbins, has a manifestation practice before this thing. And her manifest, she defines manifestation as like sitting down and thinking about what she wants to do right at the start of the day. Reminds me a little bit of Lex.

You know, when he went through, he meditates that he'll die and he thinks about, you know, the 10 things he wants to do in the day and all. That's right. The entire Manor's fear supposedly is doing like six different things before breakfast, right? Eating lemons and dunk in their fierce and fatted water. I'm doubtful. Personally, it's a lot of. it's all I could do to drink some coffee and get myself clean and dressed.

That's pretty much all I can manage in the mornings. I'm not taking any other obligations on. You're not teaching advantage of... I doubt about this practice. But I wonder, like, why do you need the label manifesting? Like, if I said to you, look, Chris, my way of manifesting is to sit down at the kitchen counter, drink some coffee and think about the things that I've got to do today. Right.

Yes. Do I need to call that manifesting? Like it's just like I think they're borrowing like manifestation has got a lot of cachet and in self-help spheres and these new you know verging on spiritual religious fears like it's it's going to give you all of the things you dreamt of. You know, I think it's fine to sit down in the morning and take a, take a breath and think about the things you're going to do today. Maybe think about the things you might cancel and not do or whatever. I plant things out a bit. But, you know, do you have to use that grandiose? language. I doubt it.

You do of yourself help, Guru. And let's hear a little bit more. There's more to it than that map. I'm kind of picking at this point because there are so many people around the world that are interested in having a daily practice. And I am somebody that has a daily manifestation practice. And I specifically think about the things that I want. I then pick up a pencil and I write them down. I write down five things every morning. that I want to create in my life. And then I read them again, and I sit in my body and think about how I'm going to feel

as I'm doing the work to create those things. And time and time again, that practice of intentionally organizing my thoughts and mind from the mental to the physical of writing it, to the rehearsing of it, to the flooding my body with the feeling of what is it going to feel like when X happens? Yeah. What is it going to feel like when Y happens? And then I close my eyes and I think about all the little, I see myself doing the annoying steps.

Like a simple example would be if you have on your bucket list climbing Mount Kilimanjaro or running a half marathon, yes, write it down, but then, when I close my eyes and think about it, I think about the like boring 6 a.m. training run when it's raining. Right. She does this every morning. Well, yeah, she sits there in her body. In the context of her heart.

Don't say that. Don't say it. For people who aren't from California, when you say we're just going to sit here in our bodies. In our bodies. Like where else is going to be? We should be. It's like fingernails at a chalkboard.

to me. Well, I just, I'd like that, you know, there's so much time. I mean, their mornings are a wonder, all the things that they do. But a lot of that could be trimmed about, like I said, and procrastinate and think about what I need to do about 10 of these things I'm not actually going to do, but I've spent a lot of time, you know, right? And the amount, like every conversation, they always say, you know, I do this practice and that practice. And if they actually did them all, their entire day would be like a series of, I've got to write these five things. I've got a dim a 10-minute visualization. I've got to say my manifesto credo.

I've got to get 20 minutes sitting in my body while things flood through me. Yeah, and what they were describing is like, I imagine the goal, imagine the steps to get to the goal and like, do I want to do the hard steps? And the response is like, oh my, like, that's incredible. But you, that's what all humans are doing. it reminds me of the acting thing. This is how I act. How do I do what I do?

How do I write a to do list, Mark? How do I write a do list that I feel to complete? You know, it's... But the other thing, the other thing that I wonder is, so these five things, right? These are the bucket list, aspirational goals. So it's not like five things I need to do today.

Well, you shouldn't, it must be, because you can't be writing down stuff. like life goals every like it's like a good bit change well this is why I asked like this would kind to be a bit weird or boring wouldn't it to write because then if it's if it's life goals like big things like I don't know to become a fully flourishing European or I don't know how I'm sorry to climb up Kilimanjord that's probably like for me that's like that was a goal that's that's like a five-year horizon at minimum and am I going to write that down every morning and would that help me to write it down and then imagine all of the steps that I'm doing, I just don't see it.

Well, this tool, maybe this tool isn't for you, Ma. I've got another one. Yeah. Well, here's one thing that I find very useful. This is a tool where you, if you can't do it inside yourself initially, you can imagine someone who loves you tremendously, like really has your best interest at heart. This could be someone who's alive. It could be someone who's alive. It could be someone who's passed away. It could even be a fictional figure. I'll volunteer. I'll be the fictional person in your mind. Well, I guess I'm a real person. Yeah. Imagine Mel. Absolutely. What would Mel tell you? Totally on your side. Right. Yeah. So you are sitting there and you explain your whole situation to this person and ask them, what do you see is possible? What do you see as possible for me? And you'll be

surprised at what you hear back from that person because it's, it just kind of tricks your mind into getting out of the tyranny of your critical judging mind and allowing this person who's a million percent behind you and believes in you in your imagination to tell you, here's what I see. Right. So I could imagine me, Matt. I'm not going to imagine you. You were not at the top of my list, Chris.

I love you. I want the best for you, Ma. do you? I'm always trying to make you succeed. You may. It's just very hard for me to visualize you saying inspirational things to me. So, okay, I'm going to imagine my wife.

I'm going to imagine, and I'm going to imagine, what does she, what does she get to, what would she say to me? Could people do that? When you say you want to, you want to climb Mount Kilimanjaro?

What would my, What would my... What do you get to say about that? I'm going to imagine an idealized version of Mr. Goh. He's like 2,000% behind me. He's like, yes, you need to do this. I believe in you. Yeah, like, I would struggle.

Like, I think I've got a good imagination, but... But that wouldn't be heard because, like, I guess it's a vein. They're just about... Imagine the person that deeply loves you. Like, I imagine my mom, you know, she loves me. But if I told my mom some of my plans, she'd be like, don't do that. Yeah, I know. No, that's why you have to imagine.

Now, this is where you have to imagine a version of her. Not her, you know, you. I'm not her right. Okay. No, no. Imagine your mother, but better. But she just agrees from me all the time. Once someone that's, she's 2,000% behind everything you want to achieve.

You're wanting to climb Mount Kilimanjaro. What would your mother be saying to you in your head right now? Wrap up warm. It's hard, isn't it? Like I'm not coming up with that. Are you sure you want to do that, Christopher? Yeah. So that's one technique.

And as I mentioned, not doing it, made me think about Hermes. Well, Hermes, a fictional character or an ancient god. For example, you could imagine.

This is kind of like internal families, a system or whatever, you know, a therapy where you're supposed to imagine different parts of yourself as like characters and have conversations with them,

with a therapist. God, I would hate that. Oh, my God. Just kill me, no, I've had. It's not for us. You know how that, you know, that's not for you. It's not for you. It's not for me.

Okay. Well, none of these techniques are for, I've gotten the long one for you. Yeah, when I wake up in the morning, I do my meditation practice, and then I take myself through my day. I imagine it. I look into what am I going to do? How am I going to get there? What am I going to eat?

What are the meetings I'm going to have? have, where am I going to be sitting? So that's that simulation form of imagination of just walking through the day. And then how do I need to be today? What do I want to bring to that? And then looking into something in my past, and when did I feel what I want to bring in today? So if I want to bring balance into today or emotion regulation, or I want to bring a warrior spirit and some firm boundaries or I want to bring compassion and empathy. When did I last feel that way? Emboddy that completely and then move into your day with that quality. Right. There's a lot. There's a lot going on there. So step one, you've got to walk your way.

Imagine your day. So with me, my day, I went for a soon in the morning. I had two meetings. I worked on a paper for a little while and now I'm recording with you. but before you did that you should imagine that I feel like you do do the step of imagining what you're going to eat I do definitely do that I do think about what I'm going to cook but yeah I mean like I could have done that this morning like I could have imagined going drive into the pool could have imagined putting on my toogs

could have imagined getting in the pool talking to me yeah haven't got to you yet we're still in the pool oh I'm sorry you're still in the pool this could have continued and I could have imagined logging onto Zoom. I could have imagined, okay, so my honest student will be there. She's going to talk to me. I'm sticking, Matt. You better start my mind.

I couldn't have done all that, but I don't think that would have helped my day in the slightest. Could you have done it better, if you'd imagine like a past self, you, where you had a day where you were just on top of everything. You got everything done. You were like efficient, Matt, super insightful on the podcast. everything was done. What if you had thought about that, embodied that, and stepped into your day with that energy? What would that have done? What about that? Well, look, speaking personally, I just can't embody things unless I feel like it. So the key thing for me is getting a good night's

sleep, getting some exercise, not eating too much or drinking too much, and being healthy. Then I have a good night's sleep, I wake up, and I'm ready to do stuff, like swim and talk to you. That's what I need personally. I don't need visualization in my life. Reality is enough when I get to it. They need to think about it beforehand personally. Ma, you're, okay. Well, obviously, I've got another technique.

This one. Maybe this was first. There's got to be one that's a good fit for me. But also, I teach a workshop called The Next You, and we take people to meet their future selves. How do you do that? Right. So first what you do is get yourself into a,

state, whether it's through meditation or listening to music or being in nature where you're really open-minded and kind of let go of some of the, you know, busyness and all that stuff. So you might do some breathing for five or ten minutes. And then what we want you to do is five years, ten years, fifteen years into the future. Imagine that you are at your front door and you are about to meet the future you that has already embodied a lot of the qualities and goals and accomplishments that you hope to do. Now, I wouldn't get too locked down on exactly what it is because if you put an overlay on it ahead of time, you're going to be kind of controlling it too much. Okay. So instead of saying, well, she's got a mansion and she has a jaguar, you just say this is someone who feels.

the way that I think the mansion and Jaguar would give me. This is someone who feels free. They have a lot of spare time. They feel balanced. They feel vital. They feel healthy. They have positive relationships. That's amazing.

That's funny. I'm watching the front door opening another guy with an eye patching, Chris, it's a bite your kids. That's right. Go to this address. There's a big scar. That's right. That's right. Beware the one-legged man. Well, because I was doing that, I thought I'd participate as you speak,

to save time, to save time. So there's no dead air there. So I was imagining myself going to the door and meeting myself. And I was thinking, it's going to be the same front door because I'm not, I'm not kidding. I'm not interested in the mansion. I'm not moving. I don't aspire to a mansion. That's fine. By the way, Matt, just in passing the mansion and the Jaguar, you know, conspicuous consumption and consumerism. That did surprise me. That's right, because I was doing that. Like I was doing, I was going, I play along, you're going along.

And I was imagining, who would I like to greet me? Well, unfortunately, they're going to be 10 or 15 years older, which is not great to begin with. That's less than ideal because I'm not young right now. But I would hope that I'm not too fat. That was the first thing that popped in my head. I hope to be a slim, older man. That was my goal. And, you know, generally, generally looking healthy.

And please, yeah, happy. That's what I imagine. I didn't imagine a Jaguar. That's not really a Junvers. You broke off. What's he coming in? Where'd you get that? Food for a lot.

It is interesting. Like underneath the manifestation and a lot of the self-help stuff. And this was true of the other self-help things we've covered. You know, they don't talk about it too directly because I think it's considered, rightly so, a little bit crass. But a lot of the things that are people, are aiming for is luxury consumption, right? Sports cars, mansions, yeah, being like ultra wealthy and yeah, I just think that's interesting. Like I know some people are poor and I really hoping to be better off and that's totally natural. But yeah, I personally don't yearn for

Jaguas and mansions. Well, actually, you know, when they're talking about examples of manifestations. I mean, they both give examples which speak to this tent. Let's say, like, here's an example. So let's just take the example of, you're moving to a city and it's hard to find an apartment and you're worried about not being able to afford it. I did this actually when we were looking for our first house because we could not afford a house in the town that we wanted to live in because they had great public schools. And every night I would write down, we are going to find an old house and we're going to be shocked and it's going to be beautiful and we're going to have to paint it ourselves and you know it's going to be a magical thing

where we find out through and it took six months of doing that and sure enough we found a house that wasn't on the market yet that had a lawn that had like grass that was 27 inches high and was completely abandoned and locked up in a battle between the people. people that were still alive from the person who, like, it was just on and on and on. But I think what it does is it doesn't make the house magically appear. Right. It makes you have more tenacity and belief that something's possible. That's right. I love that.

Yeah. So it's just the example that, you know, when they're talking about manifesting things, it actually isn't about like manifesting more confidence or whatever. It's about manifesting a bigger house. Yeah. Yeah, it's typically not like a better relationship with your children or being a bit healthier and calm or something. It's, yeah, you know, people want stuff. That stuff is material.

But it's just like they kind of argue that that's, you know, I suppose they do at the end pivot to, well, it's actually just about making you more receptive to the ideas. But at the same time, it's both, right. It's one vote in the, well, I wrote down every day. I'm going to find this house and then I find it. Yeah, yeah. It's about becoming the kind of person that the universe lavishes wonderful things on. Yeah.

The universe does seem to give them both big houses and stuff because the other one talks about living on a boat or like for a while, it's the front apartment and they ended up living on the boat. Whatever. Well, like a houseboat. Yeah. A houseboat.

What's a houseboat? Is that a thing in Australia? Is that like a canal boat? Yeah, kind of. It's a thing where you can more a flat bottom boat and live on it. It's not typically terribly luxurious. It's just somewhere to live. It sounds more fun than it is to live on a boat.

I think that's the thing with canal boats. Science fun. You know, okay, well, so, you know, in general, those are a lot of techniques that don't seem to, have been able to help us, right? I mean, it's fun to imagine our future. As we've established, we don't do it in the proper way

because we're kind of like imagining a back to the future. It's a very long of like old fat, mad showing up and being mad. You're really sitting there laughing. Jared the warning or injured, Chris, one arm. You don't want to know which crocodile would be at the story. You were in the fear of the sea. But that's not what they're talking about.

So we haven't done very well, but I'm going to give us one last chance, the final attempt to help us. Let's apply this. So let's say that the person listening is bracing all day long because they think they're going to get laid off. Or they're bracing because they're worried that they're going to never meet someone. and fall in love again. Right. And so they're imagining a future state, right? Because if you are driving to your job today, you still have it.

And so I take it if you have trained yourself to be somebody that worries. What if this? What if this is going to go wrong? What if this person thinks that? That's evidence that you could train yourself to imagine in the positive. That's right. And what changes about your life when you get very serious about training yourself to to imagine in the positive?

Well, I mean, my personal experience is that I have experienced maladaptive imagination. There was a time in my life where I had everything I wanted. I had a beautiful place to live. I had an incredible job. I mean, absolutely incredible. There was a lot of pressure, and I did go through a divorce. And so when the stress increased a lot, I started drinking very heavily. And at that point, I started to tell myself, it's going to be okay as long as you don't ever tell anyone about this.

Now, let me stop because that it's going to be okay if you don't tell anybody. You imagine that. Is it what you're saying? It's a story. Okay. Okay. All right. Well, in their defense, here's some non-material things, not just yearning for luxury goods.

Bejur houses and plastic cars. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But so what's the basic idea here? Right. If you can, if you can worry about stuff, if you can ruminate on things, if you can think about negative things, then that's proof that you have the power within you to think about good things. So you could be driving to work every day. Instead of worrying about getting laid off, you could be thinking, I'm never going to get laid off, I'm going to get promoted. Everything's going to be great. And that will help make that reality come to pass perhaps. Mm-hmm. Okay. So can you put that technique into your daily practice? I think that'll help you.

Um, I'm struggling. What do I? I got to think. What do I need to do here? I need to think about something I'm worrying about. I'm thinking about negative things. Okay. Like, it does feel like a lot of these are just different ways to say think

fast. Yes. It does. It does feel like there's a lot of different colors. of the seam liquids with different dyes out of them and the whole essential, PMA, positive mental attitude. Exactly right. Like, you know, think about other people.

Don't imagine that they're thinking that they're better than you. Think of them as someone who's just trying to do their best. Tell a positive story about your own life. Imagine a positive future. And, you know, that's fine, I guess. I mean, it's probably maybe people do have a negativity bias. And it's good advice to just generally be a bit more positive, but it's not very complicated. Oh, well, you say not complicated, Ma, but...

All right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, it does remind me of the sense makers and Jordan Peterson and stuff like that. Like, you start off with the word, like imagination. And what does imagination mean to you? Well, transcending the world around us, but essentially it's simulation. And it's also, I forget what the third thing was. figure. We can figure in. And then you can elaborate on these things, right? Simulation. Yes, yes. I can't imagine. I'm not in my kitchen at the moment, but I can, in my mind's eye, Chris, imagine my kitchen. Travel there. Yes, you can. Yeah. This is a simulation machine, some people might say. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing, amazing stuff. But that's the, okay, so this is the mundane kind of imagination where we're just imagining the actual. What about possible? That's right. Very well, it's pricmat. So, what comes next?

Well? And then the second thing you said was reconfigure. Now what am I doing? Reconfigure. So now what you can do is say, I know

what it's probably going to be like, but I know I'm going to have some hard meetings in the morning and I know I'm going to have another tricky situation in the afternoon

that I have to face. What would make me feel vital? You know what I'm going to do? I'm going to go out and get my favorite sushi. I'm just going to go out get it, bring it back, sit with a cup of tea, eat the sushi, and know that that is me taking care of myself. I need a little bit of extra care today. So you're adding something to the reality.

You're adding something to what you're imagining. Another way of reconfiguring goes a lot further than that, and it's reconfiguring your story about who you are and how you want to be. The third part you said was transcending. So transcending is the most fun, which is what can I do that's completely outside of what I think is possible? Oh yeah, man, and on this whole segment, I just want to note here, the word this ends off, this then leads into the dragon metaphor,

you know, the one we discussed earlier a little bit. So this simulate, reconfigure, and then transcend. The dragon thing is an example of, you know, you're reconfiguring and transcend it, right? And I guess this is, I'm just justifying a little bit my reaction against that, that particular approach. But I do recognize that it's, it's likely, you know, a subjective thing, like the extent to which you, you find that useful enough. So just mentioned Matt, just in passing. Yeah, yeah. I remember back in the early days, Chris, in a very early episode, you know, for some reason we're talking about like besting and

elephant or a mammoth, winning against it? I remember the context if you want me to remind you. Maybe the context doesn't matter, does it? Try. Then I won't tell you every... That's all right. In the context of surviving on an island with all the gurries. That's that...

Oh, right, right, right, that's right. Now you and I have never battled an elephant or a mammoth, but we imagined we build a pit trap and along came. You imagine the pit drop. I had a different idea. Okay, the pit trap was a better idea. I wanted to drop a bolder on that. You just didn't think that through. How would that even work? See, that's the problem. You didn't imagine that. You didn't, you didn't simulate that.

No, I imagine the yellow. How did you get a boundary? How did you get a big boulder? Okay, it's a problem. All right. Have you ever watched Robono versus Coyote, but I imagine the elephant sleeping at the bottom of a cliff and me at the pub with a big wing like lever. Leaver, yeah. The vulgar rolls off and crushes the elephant on the head. Yeah. All right.

And I'll be down there maybe dancing and kind of getting the elephant to follow me. Digging a hole in front of it. The strike the man. Yeah. Well, that's right. I think my idea of digging a pit trap was much better, more practical. But anyway, but be that as it may. Either could work.

Either could work. They're both good ideas. That's right. They're both good ideas. That's right. And that's the thing. We imagined them and we simulated them just then. But it was an elephant,

that's the thing. It didn't happen. That's right. You know, in the real world, you and I didn't actually kill an elephant. That's right. And the thing is,

that's pretty crazy, right? Like, that's pretty crazy that we were even imagining that. Like, we were actually at level three of this. We were imagining some thing that was beyond the realms that we thought possible because we've never really considered.

I'm pretty sure I could counsel. we're just recapitulating that coffee but yeah we transcended the limits of what we you know we fought our boundaries are

could we hunt and kill them elephant I think we could if we put our master if we put our that's the

I mean I think the most positive thinking there I think is essential right because if we'd adopt it like in a negative way uh oh

the elephant's just you know it's going to why are we killing an elephant yeah why are we killing an elephant. If we'd been hamstrung ourselves with that kind of negative self-talk, we would have never done it. But fortunately, we were unconstraged by such considerations,

and therefore we were very successful in squishing, in our minds. Yeah. I do think there is an aspect of this word, like, you know, as with everything we've covered in this episode, there's a positive version where you're just like, you know, you're thinking for possible negative and positive futures, and you're trying to game out things, right? And then you encounter reality and maybe you're more well equipped for unexpected things. But there's also the version where like you spend all this. You and I, you and I are better equipped now to deal with a real elephant if the situation occurs. Apparently. But there is this all over thing where you visualize the conversation that you're having with

other people, all the difficulties or whatever, and you're working out your day and what you're going to blah, blah, blah. And then nothing goes the way you intended or something. Or is something else happens to someone else who isn't you, like my son recently fell off his bike after crashed into the spider web and he had to go and get stitches. My entire day destroyed, right, in terms of my plans and all the ways that I, but that's the kind of thing where I feel like they're very, you know, focused on you imagine this and it's going to co-create. And like, what if you imagine it and you have all these great plans and it goes terrible? And it's a terrible meeting and you fucked up and you didn't do something. Right. And it's like,

a bit of self-health that I feel is often, like, glanated over. Yeah. You know, and I think so, too. Like, for instance, like, to hand it to them, I think, like, I was thinking about the last time it was many years ago, and I went to the promotion interview to be promoted to a professor, right, which is like a high stress. You've already reached the top. That's right.

I'm at the tippy top now. No more promotion interviews for me, thank goodness. But that, you know, that's a standard thing most people have. A job interview, a promotion interview, something like that. you know, it's a kind of thing you game out. It's a defense. Peace defense for academics. These are good examples of things that you would imagine yourself doing,

game out a little bit. Imagine that how it could go and imagine you doing certain things to reply. What if they said this? I'll say that. And you sort of imagine yourself projecting a certain kind of energy. And I think that's obviously very sensible, very normal kind of preparation. But the flip side of it too is that if you just imagine things going well, if you imagine this script where it's all going awesomely,

then there can be a negative side to that too, whereas when it departs from that script, then you can find yourself, you know, a bit more unprepared, a bit more floundering because in your mind's eye was not meant to go like this. It was meant to go in this kind of optimal way. So, you know, I mean, you know, you don't need to use the words like manifesting anyway. There are pros and cons to all of these little things

and there's a time and a place for them, you know, the time is when you're gaming out how to tackle an elephant and at other times not so much that's that's yeah that's that's a good thing you know that the science of imagination it's a it's a complex area like it wouldn't have helped me at all today to him had to game out my day to imagine all the things that were going to happen to like i wouldn't have swum any better at the pool by imagining myself swimming great and i don't i don't i would my meeting wouldn't have gone any better or worse than they'd had if I'd imagined them going well, I think, today. So that's what I mean. I just think it's not like a magical universal key

that unlocks flourishing and prosperity. It's, you know, it's not manifesting. It's, okay, you're planning out a potential future. You may be scheming and making some ideas and plans for how it's going to go, maybe preparing yourself for various things. And sure, that's fine. That happens sometimes. But it's not kind of like the secret. Oh, yeah. No, I agree. And like overall, we had a little bit of fun there, but I think the broader point of noting is, like this episode is packed with these, you know, self-helpy, fairly predictable descriptions about, you know, scenarios and advice that might be useful. Then these little piffy techniques, right? Imagine meeting your future self. Imagine how your day is going to go.

in the context of your body. Write down five things that you want to achieve, write down ten things that are the opposite of what you want to achieve. And this is one episode. Each episode has loads of these techniques, right? And it's the same thing that is in the optimizer sphere or the Huberman sphere, or they're kind of endlessly searching for ways to justify making a book that is going to give you a...

eight point plan for doing X, Y, and Z. And they're essentially working in a marketplace where they're marketing, like, their particular brand of PMA. And in this case, like, I kind of curious

what are the actual dynamics behind this? Because, like, given how successful Mel Robbins is, and the fact sheet commands met 150 to 300K for speech, public speech, Okay, that's her fee. So getting invited on her podcast, I imagine it's not just the same as coming on our podcast.

Like, I feel that in this self-help world, there's a lot of network effects. There's probably friendships and stuff, but like essentially this is an infomercial for the person and the book. Right. So like, yeah, I just, I guess. it's cross-promotional activities, but I wonder, is there a financial quick-to-go somewhere in here? Yeah, one does wonder. One does wonder.

I mean, certainly with the other self-help stuff that we've covered, the financial arrangements are never far below the surface, right? No. The Mafia McConaughey, I'm just going to grow up this stage here. Well, it's the year. It does a sandwich up. is you. Yeah, and you know, like, so, yeah, so Mel here is, is not advancing any sort of skepticism. Like, really, her role is to big up the guest.

Yes, and that's what it all was this. Yeah, okay. Yeah, so one does wonder. We don't know, so we won't speculate, but one does wonder. One does wonder. And, well, Matt, there we are. I think we've hammered the lid quite firmly shut on this particular coffin. And, you know, we were never going to be down with a self-help, be self-actualizing California-style message, right? Of, like, the beauty of imagination and so on. Yeah, there's not too much to say, really, in summary, is there? I mean, this is self-help seems incredibly generic, doesn't it?

Like, every self-help person has different words. They've got a different theme for their book. But underneath it all is kind of the same. same set of basic ideas, which I dressed up a lot in complicated language, then maybe references to religion or spirituality or capitalist science, which undergirds it all. And there is a very bespoke framework purportedly. But underneath it all is kind of some homespun wisdom. But that aside, what did it make me think about? It made me think about the way in which, I guess, most of the gurus we cover are catering to a particular kind of audience.

Like they're catering to a need. So, like, with some of our scientific contrarians or academic contrarians, they're catering to a certain kind of paranoia and resentment and skepticism of, of experts and people who think they're smarter than us or whatever and and and pandering to the intellectual pretensions I guess of the audience then you have the ones that are the political firebrands as well Jordan Peterson is is a mix of of all of them I guess but they're sort of catering to an emotional need always and then on top of that what is laid onto it is a whole bunch of pseudo intellectual frameworks which is which is really what we're talking about this this dressing up, but underneath it all is the catering to a need. And complementary alternative medicine

is a perfect example of this, the health influences as well. They're catering to, you know, relatively normal human anxieties about health and well-being and death. So yeah, I mean, I guess this episode just made me think about that, how, you know, there's a particular kind of audience. It's obviously like, we're not the target market here. You and I aren't particularly full of neurotic worries or self-doubt. We don't have. have incredibly high aspirations that we're looking for some secret, some key that will enable us to access them. But I guess some people are. So that's the market. And everything he just kind of heard is a way of, I guess, speaking to a framework, a technique, a way for them to, you

know, the promise of them addressing those needs. What did you take from? Yeah. And we were never going to find this kind of material appealing. Right. But I will say that like, I did find it refreshing for change that at least in this version of the content, it didn't slip into, you know, right-wing polemics. That was just refreshing because it was Gerogen or any of the alarm, like, optimizer, rose. It almost always returns to that topic.

So it didn't hear, which was nice. I'm not saying it doesn't come up elsewhere. I think the danger of anti-fax stuff coming up in this kind of material is probably a bigger thing, right? You know, the kind of conspiraturality ecosystem that exists. But I also did notice the various overlaps in the other content that we've looked at, which includes, you know, giving theoretical models, yes, and the pseudo-profound reactions. But the general thing about it, I want to give you a set. of techniques and these are going to improve your life. And the person that I'm talking to this

week, this is really important and you need to know it. And, you know, the powers of social manipulations and all that kind of thing. And I do think this material is like more catered towards a female demographic. But at the same time, it's a seeker type spiritual, inclined person that is likely to find this kind of approach more appealing, whether they'd be meal or female. And I think that the meal optimizer types, including Next Friedman and Chris Williams and the recover, are basically providing the same kind of material just in a like male-coded, male-coded way. Yeah, it's very similar. So that's, that's a thing that I noticed that there's, there's a lot of overlaps. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's, it's good that you reminded me because

earlier on the episode, we just, we mentioned the, the, the way the language is coded, And if you strip away the language that you've got this one, you know, you've got the basic idea. But depending on whether or not it's Lex Friedman or Joe Rogan or Mel Robbins saying it, you can kind of say exactly the same thing, but coded in a like a spiritual seeker way or in a very liberal progressive way or in a rough paleo con, you know, masculine way, you can package up the same kind of appeals because we're all human beings. We kind of tend to have commonalities in terms of the underlying things that we'll find attractive. But the packaging, the language packaging is really interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so it's nice to be out of bright green reactionary, manosphere territory for a while.

And then, unfortunately, our next episode is that we're going to look at Candice Owens. Oh, my God. It's a big swerve. Yeah, kick us back to that realm. But maybe with like the conspiratorial bent. Yeah. Well, here's the thing. Say what you'll like about Mel Robbins.

She's no Cantas Owens. That's true. That's true. Yeah, that's right. I think Mel Robbins fits within the Brenny, Brown, and Oprah Winfrey, a species. A little bit more than the McIlipeda version. But, you know, Mikhailipi Dixon was also on the edge of this.

Like, Gwyneth Paltrow also would slot in nicely here as a guest, right? And that's what you would expect with the self-help space. So no surprises, but yeah, interesting person to look at. So when it comes to like secular guruism, we'll see on the grometer. But I think certain things are going to light up, but it's, you know, self-help people are not lighting up all of the, features that we have on the grometer because they're kind of like a related species, but not exactly the same species as we're focused on. Agreed.

Agreed. Now, right. Before we get out of here, there's a Judy that we must, you should imagine yourself now, in the context of a podcast, envision people you're sitting in a room, right? And each of the people that I'm going to mention are coming up looking at you in the face and waiting to hear words of inspiration from you. Right. And that's our Patreon members. I'm going to imagine myself walking up to them, placing my hands on their shoulders and staring deeply into their eyes.

But not saying anything. Just, yeah. Not saying anything. No. That's creepy. It's a little creepy. It's a little bit creepy, a little bit intense. But that's what people like it.

Okay. All right. Yeah. Well, so I'm going to shout out conspiracy. Hypothesisers first, Matt. Would you object to that? Do you mind? You got anything?

I'll allow it. I'll allow it. You'll lie. You'll lie. Okay. Well, I'm going to shout out people. This is like the long-timers, the people that have been here, you know,

supporting the pod. And they really need more recognition for the service. first thing done in supporting, right? And maybe they've never even been sure to do that that's possible. So here are some conspiracy hypothesizers that meet that requirement. You have unlearning ethics, Gaddy Epstein, Tim Nguyen, good old Tim, Kevin Oroog, Petito Schmidt, Alicia Wilson. Chris, Kevin Orook's my cousin. It's my second cousin. Holy God. Well, say thank you for me.

Thank you. Thanks Kevin. Actually, hang on. I think Kevin's got a free I think I gave him a gift to care out. Don't thank him out. Don't shout him out. No, you can say I got super sad about it.

We'll share him out. We'll shout out. Petito Schmidt, Alicia Wilson, Giant, If, Brian Shmarian, Amor Patel, Mohammed,

presumably not the Muhammad, but A. Muhammad. Joe Percy. Peter Astrum. KMD. Greg Binder. Catherine.

Roscoe 112. Laura Ringer. Jim Murray. Gavin Boydor's Unforcing Tales. Christopher McLachlan. Jeffrey Zeng. Lindsay Kate Faye. Gary Bushwell.

Jordan Fernandez. Jasra Do Brzezanski. Joao Barbosa. Shane Grunholz and Ethan Joe Stad. Oh, and Sam Hart. And Sam Hart, too. Sam heard too. Excellent.

Excellent. That's quite a lot. Conspiracy. Hypopsods. They deserve it, Matt. They deserve it. They deserve it. And I am particularly happy, actually,

that some of my friends and family do like to listen. I'm particularly pleased that my cousins listen. It's very nice. It is nice. None of my family is showing up. I'll just mention, but whatever. for the Irish people. Thank you, one and all.

I feel like there was a conference that none of us were invited to that came to some very strong conclusions and they've all circulated this list of correct answers. I wasn't at this conference. This kind of shit makes me think, man. It's almost like someone is being paid.

Like when you hear these George Soros stories, well, he's trying to destroy the country from within. We are not going to invent. conspiracy theories. We will advance conspiracy hypotheses. That's what you get. That's what you get for being a conspiracy hypothesizer. Matt, what do you get when you combine a pinch of moo and a smidge of oink? A cow and a pig? I don't know. Oh my god. You don't remember advertising moinck? You don't remember that? Oh, what? No, okay. No. No.

Well, he did. What is Wink? Wank, it's, it was, I think, some kind of food that was like combining pig and kai. Oh, well, do you remember he was selling, you know, entrails? No, that was Constantine. Oh, Constantine was selling. People have said it's mal meat. It's real meat.

Well, what's, what's they called? They don't call it entrails. What do they call it when they put this part of the item was that they eat? God, I can't remember. Anyway. You know what. I mentioned it because the first revolutionary thinker, Matt, it's Moink for Your Supper.

That is the username. That's a great username. Float goat, one true mantis, Julius Horcephiris, who makes interesting trippy VR videos. He does. David Love, Roland Weber, Kim Young Pung, Samuel Rivers, Alex A, Chris Clark, Tom Allison, Patrick Dunlop, Adrian Barrett, Frost at Bullsito, Brendan Hitch, Juhna Vittamaki, Yellow Dreams, Lewis Price, Daniel Reed Miller, Icona, Rod Hodges, Coddy, Andy Hunt, Derek Berris, Erin Hitch, Scottie Parkett, Duncan and Liam Coffey, Great. So some friends of the podcast there, Derek from Conspiratory, Liam, from cheeky internet commentary.

Yeah. And always. We don't get to speak to Liam so much these days because he's vanished into the wind. Into blue sky. That's right. Yeah. Into the flu sky. Right.

Were he in just fear de Trey? Well, maybe we will. Actually, he got married recently. I saw photos of the wedding. So congratulations to Liam and UZ. Yes, congratulations to the boat. That's lovely to hear. I've seen a lot of photos of them together,

looking very happy together. So it's nice to know. Yeah, good job, Liam. Now, here's this. It's your reward. I'm usually running, I don't know, 70 or 90 distinct paradigms simultaneously all the time.

And the idea is not to try to collapse them down to a single master paradigm. I'm someone who's a true polymath. I'm all over the place. But my main claim to fame, if you'd like, in academia, is that I founded the field of evolutionary consumption. Now, that's just a guess, and it could easily be wrong, but it also could not be wrong. The fact that it's even plausible is stunning. Yeah, this is true of everything I say. It could be right. It could be wrong. The fact that it's plausible is stunning, right. It is stunning. Okay, well, last up, the true, the true fans, the true blue, the core, the beating heart to mat of the Patreon, the Galaxy Brindoros, who get their talk to us if they want to, around once a month on the live hangouts.

And they include Hustletron 9,000, always hustling. Chris Spanos, old Chrissy, always hustling. Everybody's hustling. I'm just a time made a comment for each of them it will be too hard Kajch, Max Plan Gower Flea, Josh Stutman

Mazar Zobra, Leslie, Madav Koshish, Alexander, Jay Benjamin Ashcraft, David Small, Rob Leslie Jr., Steve Donnelly, The Soil Will Sevas, Dan Lev 151, Tom Yashko, Kyle Wilson, Janet Yuta, Bradley G. Wall,

Loki, Amadouis Le Shecky, Lily, Timber Rossiter, Jester, Chris, Maytree, Adam Taylor, Jack Osley, Jenny, Demostics, Eric Quirk, Simon Krover, Alan Malcolm McPherson,

Deudry Domigan, Nick Bee, Jedi Mishap, Dean, and Daniel Kilwood, Barnes'ads himself. There were a number of all our famous Patreon members there, but I didn't want to interrupt the flow, so I recognize you, don't worry, I recognize you all.

You've all argued with me in various ways, so where can I forget. Yeah, fantastic. Well, good, good. All right. Mischief managed. You have to hear the clip. You remember it?

There's a clip. Oh, sorry. Your favorite one. I got about the clip. Hello there, you awakening wonders. You may not be aware that your entire reality is being manipulated. Become part of our community or free speakers. We are still allowed to say stuff like this.

Science is failing. It's failing right in front of our eyes. and no one's doing anything about it. I'm a shill for no one. More than that, I just simply refuse to be caught in any one single echo chamber. In the end, like many of us must, I walk alone.

He does. He does. He does. Walking away on the zone at the minute, I think people aren't paying that much attention to the legs, which is all for the good. Yeah, yeah, that's fine. He's out there doing his 10-mile run.

runs, reading Dostoevsky, thinking deep thoughts. Again, again, he's still reading it. Yeah, yeah. It seems so wild. All right, Matt, well, you know, congratulations. Chifleton, go and imagine meeting your future self, your past self, your dead body, your ancestors, your cousins, the various fictional beings that inhabit your mind palace and a few good gods while you're right there.

as well. Why not? Why don't you bring them in your imagination? Why not? Indeed. Indeed. All right. I'm going to put all of those things into practice and I'm going to work out imagining that a part of a more successful podcast. We'll see what happens. Let's hear what we can manifest out of that. All right. Well, hope springs eternal. Goodbye. See ya.