Decoding the Gurus - Oprah Winfrey: Self Actualising Your Destiny

Episode Date: April 16, 2023

Oprah Winfrey is someone who truly needs no introduction. She's a legend of daytime television, a warm and charismatic juggernaut who steam-rolled her way to the very apex of media success. Now, an extraordinarily wealthy woman, she's busy with philanthropy and helping others manifest their inner light so as to truly Be in this world.Certainly, in a category apart from IDW knuckleheads or bottom-feeding YouTube types, Oprah is nevertheless a self-help and spiritual guru in the truest sense of the word; both in the eyes of her audience and by her own lights. In the interview we cover, she talks frankly about her own philosophy of life and gives advice to others that they might emulate some portion of success. Inevitably not discussed are various controversies around her promotion of pseudoscience, endorsing self-help gurus like James Arthur Ray, anti-vaxxers like Jenny McCarthy and giving a massive leg-up to noted internet doctors, Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz. "The Secret" by Rhonda Byrne, which promotes the Law of Attraction, is not explicitly mentioned, but Chris detects hints of it vibrating throughout the conversation.So join Matt and Chris as they conclusively demonstrate why they remained the perpetual block-sucking kids at the nursery, while Oprah rode her self-actualised rocket past the first grade to become a billionaire media mogul.Also on this week's episode discover whether Oprah earns a place on Guru island, if the intro segments will be tightly edited, how Chris prepares for job interviews, and just how many of Matt's enemies are Nazis!LinksOprah Winfrey: The Secret of My Success. Stanford Graduate School of Business.Kurzgesagt's video on their funding and POV.PBS Space TimeDr Sam Gregson, the Bad Boy of Science

Hello and hello and welcome to decoding the gurus the podcast where an anthropologist and a psychologist listen to the greatest minds the world has to offer and we try to understand what they're talking about i'm matt brown with me is chris cavanaugh my partner in crime my better half the scabbard to my sword it's getting weird now yeah the sheaf to my so yeah hello good morning how are you how are you that's what you humans say isn't that in these situations yes it is thank you for asking chris i'm i'm well i'm well i'm rather well today that's good and you know today matt we we will be taking on a totemic figure in the cultural discourse oprah winfrey right i know she's she's not necessarily considered you know part of the same set of the secular guru uvra but but she is a

major figure and has been on the public scene for decades and yeah so i think it'll be interesting in some respects to look at you know somebody who falls a little bit more in the traditional a traditional guru archetype. Maybe we'll see. We'll see. But Matt, before we get to her, we're not going to have a lengthy introduction this time. People were spoiled last time with an entire episode before we got past the introduction.

But this will just be short. But last time we did a mini decoding of Matthew Goodwin's appearance with the Trigonometry Brothers, and we did receive some feedback. We received positive feedback, which we do receive, but there were some people, Matt, that felt you in particular, Matthew Brown, were a little too quick to jump to the old comparisons with Mr. Hitler and his friends, the Nazis, and the Godwin's Law, right? right you know that saying matt haven't you discredited your argument by by invoking that that specter in discourse that little meme of you know all of my opponents are nazis and i like that i've cast this just as you but so what have you got to say for yourself matt but well first of all well first of all i appreciate it that we can apply Godwin's law to Goodwin.

That's the first note of appreciation. And as you know, Chris, I'm one of these people, I like to call the people who disagree with me Nazis. It's my go-to. Never fails. It's my thing. And the people that try to defend the people that I call Nazis, they're probably Nazis too.

So that's my first rebuttal to that. No, no, no. Of course, that's not what we do. Look, I think I stand by it. We're a little bit careful in that similar to Jordan Peterson, we really did emphasize that we are not saying that they are literally Nazis. We definitely don't think they would even think of themselves as being not only not fascist, but not even having any proclivities in a slightly fascist direction. So what I think we are humbly pointing out is that the kinds of things that they like, the kinds of things that they find appealing, do share a fair bit of common ground with

the tenets of National Socialism, which, hey, it's an ethos. Or I think, you know, one way to thread the needle would be to say that, you know, fascism is a broad church, right? And there are, like the farther right you go, the more that you lean towards, like, fascist kind of things. This is basic political theory. It's a spectrum, right? Right.

But the farther left you go, the more you tend to lean into like worrying forms of communism. So like the extremes are extreme for a reason. And there are certain motifs associated with like fascist political approaches and you can hear at very least echoes of them in a bunch of the things that goodwin does right and was doing now is he anti-semitic targeting the jews saying that we need the living space to expand upon? No, he's not. And he would, I think, actively oppose the return or the promotion of overt neo-Nazis

in right-wing politics. He might be tolerant of people who have been discovered to have such links but i'm not saying that he would be out on the barricade saying that these people need a place at the table and they have to be there so no he's not an advocate for modern neo-Nazis. Yeah. And look, the problem is, is that these, that particular stream of political thinking, because of the events of the 20th century, has achieved this kind of totemic status in the minds of everybody, to such a degree that I think people can fall into the trap of thinking that unless somebody has big, boots and is goose stepping around the place talking about you know world wars and invading other countries then it can't possibly be

anything like fascism but you know just to remember looking back through history the kinds of appeals that those extremely hard right groups made to achieve popularity in many cases get themselves elected was not saying hey let's have a world war and do various kinds of genocide no they were making certain kinds of appeals a return to traditional family values emphasizing the need for a strong community, a strong national fabric that is united and cohesive, being strongly against cosmopolitanism and internationalism, reigning in big business, having these motifs, talking about these elites, betraying the people, which of course was a big trope about the narrative of the Nazis around World War I,

was seen as a betrayal by the elites, saying that the democratic system is broken and this skepticism about it. And being anti-immigration, and of course the kicker, a trope that we saw in Goodwin's thing, was that advances in genetic science will soon prove that there are important group differences that will end up supporting all of these views.

So we are merely observing, I think, that there are many tropes in common. Yeah, and I think what you just detailed is the argument that we would put forward. Now, Goodwin, I will note, has been on a bit of a rampage on Twitter, highlighting that the people who are criticizing him, look, these people all graduated from Oxford or Cambridge. And he seems to have dug into that well-established vein now that if you rage and you present things in a polemical fashion, that you get a lot of attention. And he is getting attention, much more than when he was before a kind of contrarian academic type. Now he's becoming, you know,

like a firebrand populist advocate. So that's interesting. But I just, I find it disheartening that that works so well. But also the notion that he's saying anything interesting when he is saying that in British politics in particular, there is an over-representation of graduates from Oxford and Cambridge, and that the media is predominantly left-leaning. Like those two notions, that's not new, Matt. That's not a new thesis.

That's well-established. In fact, at my very lefty university, I went to my undergraduate at SOAS. That's what everybody would diagnose the faults of everything through that lens. So it's just amazing to me that you can get so much mileage out of presenting this as the thing that nobody wants to talk about the over-representation of elite education institutions and the ruling classes like where has he been for for decades and decades this is not a new thing it is an established talking point and that's part of why he's getting criticism is just the lack of historical context in what he's saying and the clear polemical nature of it but he uses that to say well of course these elites would respond like that right so it's yeah it's interesting it's a very effective like polemic strategy yeah just to rile people up and it works so there we go you know he was saying on twitter

he'll debate anyone who wants to and we have a right to reply so we you know we could end up talking to him but he just seems to me like a polemicist so what's there to discuss except rhetoric yeah it doesn't sound like it would be much fun anyway well that's that our our right reply there i always open to everyone barring so we do draw the line at neo-nazis and whatnot and so the fact that we would allow him a right to reply would mean that no we don't classify him as a neo-nazi so there you go see it works out matt fine fine fine now on to oprah i agree with you chris some people who might think that we're more sort of focused on idw type people and that might think might think that yeah they might think opera is an odd choice but certainly like i remember oprah from you know being all over the

tv when when i was younger and and i remember just the mega stardom. And I remember the adoring fans and the strong dose of sort of self-help popular philosophy that was in there along with the normal kind of daytime talk show stuff. So yeah, I think just in purely non-pejorative guru terms, she is like a perfect example. So definitely worth decoding, I think, to find out what's going on. I haven't listened to Oprah for years. Like my memories of her before looking at this content we're dealing with today were from 20 years ago.

So it's going to be interesting. Yeah. And the piece of content that we're looking at is an interview. It's actually a little bit of an older one. It's from eight years ago. I think that's at least when it was posted. The Stanford Graduate School of Business did an extended interview about her career and general approach. But it was actually slightly hard to find content where she is the subject rather than the interviewer, right? Or in the case where there are interviews with her, they often tend to be like short, you know, talk show style things. So that's why we're using this.

So it's in the context of talking in front of like an audience of business school students and being hosted by i think a young member of that school i don't know a teacher or a lecturer ta whatever the case might be um interviewing her and so just like a little bit of context to note is that Oprah is I think a little bit infamous for prior to Gwyneth Paltrow being one of the promoters of spirituality least pseudoscience and self-help that verges on you know magical magical thinking yeah so I mean her most notable things are that dr phil spun off from her content so did dr oz who now you know attempting to get elected but before a doctor who was infamous for peddling various pseudoscience treatments and And Jenny McCarthy used to be promoted or featured during her anti-vaccine advocacy. I'm sure she's still doing that, but less prominently now.

So, yeah. Yeah. So I guess that kind of fits the thing that you've noticed before, which is that the real mega gurus tend to spin off minor gurus who can go on to blossom and have their own careers. What do you think though chris i mean i think the fact that you couldn't find a great deal of content where it's sort of her monologuing telling her theory of the world her theory of life that kind of counts against her as a as a guru right a bit like joe rogan he's often doing interviews although he does rant and rave yeah so that's opinions but that's the thing i think if you listen to oprah's

con and i have listened to a bit of it now because i subscribed to some of her feeds when i was preparing for this and it's the same as like gwyneth paltrow it comes out in her interviews with other people and it's kind of her actions which are also indicating the kind of beliefs that she holds so she doesn't need to do you know like a russell brand or jordan peterson style extended monologues because yeah well one she's been in the scene a lot longer than most of those figures decades before that so i think a little bit has cut out of her system of needing to be the the sole person monologuing um i think over time you come to realize like it's nicer to have other people to bounce off right it's like it's less work so yeah but and i think the other thing is like she rose to prominence by being a talk show host.

So in her nature is that interactive dialogue aspect. So it's a very long-winded way to say that. I think there's plenty in her content, which reveals her beliefs, her worldview. And I would say it comes across as guru-ish, but maybe not in the secular guru way yeah i think in one respect she's a little bit like an early elon musk and not the way elon musk is now but the way he used to be a bit in that he is like a genuinely rich and important person in his own right okay

so he would often do interviews and there would be these hagiographic kind of fawning interviews where he really didn't need to prove to anyone, you know, what an amazing person he was, or rather he was doing it, but doing it helped along by the interviewer without having to exert too much effort. He's since become so much more needy and cringe somehow but oprah is sort of the bona fide version of that which she is she has been hugely successful is immensely wealthy and popular and does not really need to exert herself to prove anything at this point no and there was talk about a political

run right there was talk a couple of years ago about her running as a democratic nominee or an independent maybe but like uh i don't i haven't heard much about that in recent years but we have seen various celebrity candidates right notably? Notably Donald Trump. When, so who knows, you know, the fact that it hasn't been talked about recently maybe means that it's, it's not so much, you know, an active thing being pursued, but yeah, I don't, I don't know, just to say that like, she that she might have more things to do outside of the sphere of entertainment, but maybe not.

It's unclear. So who knows the future for Oprah? It's wide open, but she seems quite content working on her network and various philanthropic projects and podcasts and whatnot. So yeah. Okay. So I'll play first just to highlight the structure of the interview and a little bit of the dynamic that is at play. This is the interviewer explaining how the thing is going to be structured. To get things started, I thought we'd frame today's talk with framing three

sections with quotes of yours that you shared after wrapping up your 25th season and final season of the Oprah Winfrey Show. And I thought some of these quotes, I mean, you share so much wisdom, but these really spoke to me and I thought would be a great way to frame our discussion. So this first one that I will read for everyone and for you, so you don't have to strain your neck, is you have to know what sparks the light in you so that you in your own way can illuminate the world. So I wanted to take this time to talk about your early career and how you discovered your calling. to talk about your early career and how you discovered your calling. Well, before you comment, Chris, I have to remark that I think the interviewer has a very unfortunate accent. Not her fault.

Not her fault. Product of her cultural background. America is a rich and diverse country with many different accents. That particular accent, which I'm not sure if it's californian or valley girl or something i don't know but it it hurts me oh this is a spicy take the vocal fry does she have a little bit vocal fry is that the thing but it's it's not that that bothers me it's just it's just it's just one of those things no judgment personal preference It's a personal preference. It's a personal preference. It's my problem.

It's me. It's not her. You know, vive la différence. Let a thousand flowers bloom. It's not her fault. But yeah, I don't like that answer. So, I mean, I hear what you said. It doesn't rankle me as much. But, you know, people in glass houses can't throw stones so you know what it's like to be

just disabled in this respect yeah so i instead will just comment on the way the interview streamed is around like these kind of key quotes right that fraction out the the sections and as she said there's three of them and the first one about you have to know what sparks that light in you so that you in your own way can illuminate the world and so on very reminiscent to me of the stuff that we covered when we looked at brené brown right this is this is just a bit of the pattern of self-help chat across the globe but but in particular like in the u.s so we're going to be dealing with that and as we flagged on the quinn of paltrow episode in the brené bryan episode this you know it kind of conflicts with our personalities and cultural upbringings and and whatnot so you know just worth mentioning

just that's all right but uh yeah look okay so it is that generic self-help type phrasing find the light in you so no what is it anyway you want to let it shine the light in you so you can illuminate the world yeah okay so it's the kind of thing you'd find on a hallmark card like are we being unfair is there some is there some substance to that or is it literally just hallmark card emptiness well we're gonna get into it so i i think we'll see how much substance there is to it as we go through some of the other clips but the basic dynamic which you can understand is that this is a a young woman interviewing the kind of cultural icon that is oprah so there's a little bit questions to the master kind of style but

actually i find their interaction the rapport between them to be pretty good i mean i guess oprah is very established as a as a talk show interviewer and subject so you you might imagine that but you know it's framed at various points she's going to give tips to the the person interviewing them about how to do it properly and stuff like that and then you know i find it relatively endearing that interaction oh yeah yeah yeah no no play some more clips play some more okay i'll give you an example just of that that you know the kind of interview dynamic and it gets a little bit into some other topics but here you go. Here's an example.

I'm sure you are a minority, perhaps is the only woman, the only black person, the only person from a poor family. Did this affect you on your professional path? And how did you navigate situations in which you might have felt more alone? And now, how did that impact how you lead and how you might help people who may be feeling that same thing okay man that's a lot of questions i'm sorry all right let's i mean i i man i figured i had you here i was gonna i was gonna ask as much as i could um amanda went deep on me there for a minute there whoa back up sister girl come on back up yeah yeah we'll hear a lot more of that kind of thing oprah's really deft and charismatic yeah it's hard not to like her basically and she says a lot about her

personal background and it is like a rags to riches story isn't it i mean you're playing more clips i'm sure of her background in mississippi i think she was born in the year where segregation was officially ended but not really so you know that's quite a story yeah and i i think those aspects of it were the fact that oprah has become so successful when she was climbing a media ecosystem as a black woman and as you say in the era like immediately after what's it called desegregation i think so yeah or growing up in that period and then entering you know a media environment which was obviously dominated by white male producers and business people. It is impressive, all the things that she's achieved.

And I think that regardless of all the other stuff that she does and that we'll talk about, that is, I think, fairly uncontroversial. Whatever you generally think think it is impressive what she achieved given the environment that she came up in yeah when i mentioned my brother that we were covering oprah he immediately mentioned uh dolly parton which i think is a a sort of a similar character and someone else who it's really hard not to like and i think i might like dolly a little bit more just because i don't think she does the self-help hallmark stuff so much but i uh yeah i don't know i don't know yeah i don't know i haven't i'm not as that's my impression too but i i haven't looked into dolly parton lore so she she might do but um i don't know much either there was an

interesting part to me where she does she does talk about the environment and the the various difficulties she faced and stuff but she also to some extent like takes a relatively unpopular position in in progressive land these days so let me just play it to illustrate what I mean. So how did you navigate situations in which you might've felt more alone? Always the only woman in the room. Still walk in, only woman in the room. And there's a room full of white men, usually older.

Thrills me, just thrills me. I just love it. Usually the only black person in the room. Also, never really concerned me, because I don't look at people through color. I didn't get to be where I am by, and who I am, by looking at the color of people's skin. I really, literally took Martin Luther King at his word

and understand that the content of a person's character and refused to let anybody else do that to me. So I love it. Just love it. And there's a wonderful phrase by Maya Angelou from a poem that she wrote called To Our Grandmothers that she says, when I come as one, but I stand as 10,000.

So when I walk into a room and particularly before I have something really challenging to do, or I'm going to be in a circumstance where I feel I'm going to be, you know, up against some difficulties, I will literally sit and I will call on that 10,000. I will call on the ancestors. I will call on those people who've come before me. I will call on the women who forged a path that I might be able to sit in the room with all of those white men and love it so much. I call on that.

I think you do the same thing, don't you, Chris? You call upon your ancestors, the flying columns, the bog trotters, the freedom fighters. Yeah, I think Celtic warriors were famed for going into battle with just a metal necklace, like a kind of not a dog collar, the ancient Celtic equivalent to that so yeah that's all you need to do you just need to blow yourself exactly so before job interviews i i stripped down paint myself blue put on my dog color and enter the room growling and and what i imagine to be celtic

tongues so yeah never fails fails, I imagine. I imagine it must make quite the impact. That's how I've reached these lofty heights today. But no, the thing that was interesting to me is like she simultaneously threads the needle of recognizing the role played by, you know, pioneers, people who pushed for women to have more representation for the rights of African Americans. And, and she acknowledges all that quite clearly,

but she's also very clear that she believes in, you know, I don't see color, the thing, which is generally regarded as not kosher and progressive. Not cool. Not cool. I'm fine with that. I understand why people are critical of some folk who immediately reach to. I don't see any color thing. But I think as an overall goal and as an approach that we should strive for in the world, colorblindness is what we want. And progressives sometimes seem a little bit confused.

True, true. You know, I thought that was all pretty cool. I thought she squared that circle nicely, just like you. She talks at length about the various disadvantages or things she had to overcome about being like the only black woman in the situation and how, you you know things that are unfair and all that stuff but she says well um i take people as they are and i don't treat people according to that kind of thing and i don't want them to treat me like that so yeah that's pretty wholesome

healthy yeah agreed and you know at the start I think it is good to dwell a little bit on outlining how, you know, her career began and the path that she took. And there are some elements that are kind of interesting. So she's talking about, you know, when she was being successful as a reporter, or, you know, at least she was on TV and had a profile and she received advice like this. And when I was, by the time I was making 25, my father goes, well, you just hit the jackpot. You're not going to make no more money than that. That's just it.

So I was torn between what the world was saying to me and what I felt to be the truth for myself. It felt like an unnatural act for me reporting. Although I knew that to a lot of people it was glamorous and i started to just inside myself think what what do i really want to do yeah so she talks a lot about her personal journey here right chris yeah um and you know she is obviously the one who went over every hurdle, went on to a bigger and better thing every time. And I wonder, though, I mean, there would be many people who got to, say, the first rung or the second rung that she hit. And for many of us, that's where we plateau right but so she's looking back in hindsight of of how she you know just blitzed through all of those hurdles yeah yeah and that kind of point will come up in a couple more clips that we'll play the the sense of in a way it's like it's kind of a combination of having the willpower to just you

know barrel over the hurdles but also it being like predestined in a way you know i'm always reminded of that donnie darko scene where there's like the big liquid when he sees you know the path that people are following donnie darko's a science fiction movie and it's kind of metaphysical and esoteric in parts. But there's a big- The only thing I remember about it is the big rabbit. It was very disturbing. There's a big rabbit. But there's a part where he sees the watery paths

coming out of people and people bounce along the paths, right? It's kind of like, so anyway, it reminds me of that notion that, you know, when you have insight that you see what your path is and then you know what you're supposed to follow. But before, well, actually, this tip speaks to this a little bit. So this talks a bit about the environment that she entered and the potential lack of support or, you know, at least people being negatively valence like us and how she overcame that in a way. Every single person, except my best friend, Gail, said you're going to fail.

Every single person when I left, my bosses by this time thought I was terrific and said, you're going to, you're walking into a landmine, You're going to fail. You're going to fail. Chicago's a racist city. You're black. You're not going to make it. Everything to keep me sane. They then offered me a car and an apartment and all this stuff. And I said, no, if I fail, then I will find out what is the next thing for me. What is the next true thing for me? It felt right to you. So you went for it. Because it felt like this is now the move i need to make so yeah she does believe in i guess destiny and the power of self-belief and uh having a vision for where

you want to go and if you hold true to that then you will get there yeah and so there's parts of that which are, I think, admirable about being able to have faith in yourself and, you know, not listen to the naysayers, right? Like if you think, go for it, right? And if you feel, you feel. And that's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. But like apply that to trying things but but there are shades of it at times where the implication that like oprah is a very special person and that's why she succeeded come through and this is her i think talking about her education and the segregation environment as well. And if it were not for education and

being born at the right time, because I was literally born in the year of desegregation, five years before, three years before, two years before, nobody would have even had the hope that my life could have been any different. So because I was born at that time and literally moved out of Mississippi by the time I was in my first classroom, I was in kindergarten, wrote my kindergarten teacher a letter, Ms. New, I said, Dear Ms. New, I do not belong here.

Because I know a lot of big words. And then I wrote every big word I knew. Elephant. Hippopotamus, Mississippi, Nicodemus, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from the Bible. So, and then Ms. New says, who did this? I said, I did. So then they marched me off to the principal's office. Only time I was ever in there. Principal's office. Principal made me sit and write those words again. And I got myself out of kindergarten, into first grade.

Oh, my gosh. First grade, skipped second grade. Hello-er. The renaissance began. Yeah. Yeah. So she does. It's interesting mix, though, isn't it? Because she does talk about some degree of luck

and that she was born at the right time and where opportunities might possibly be available. But she's very clear about the fact that she was pretty special. She was a gifted kid and just, yeah, she was special. And I do have another clip that makes that emphasis a little bit more clear, the distinction between her and the other children. You look around and you say, these kids, they are playing with some blocks.

You're like, I don't do that. And I know Nicodemus. I do not think I belong in here. I do not belong in here so my point is my point is education really opened the door wasn't the point that you were like art piercing all the other people in the education system did you ever have that feeling in like kindergarten and stuff chris like i think i was just one of the kids like sucking on the

blocks yeah that's it the yeah with the disapproving gifted children looking over yeah so that's a you know this this is a common feature, right? Where there's like a self-deprecation tendency, but it's often contradicted by the story that people tell where they'll say, you know, I wasn't gifted at education, but the teachers just couldn't appreciate my brilliance, right? Like I had all these alternative ways of seeing things that the teachers couldn't uh understand and in her case she is saying that it was recognized and

that you know helped her out so there's a little bit different there but just that that like yeah but do you have an issue with that because i i don't find it unlikely that she was a gifted kid so why not just be honest about that yeah it's more the logical connections because if you are this you know special person that is outpacing the development of the other children that's yes it's important that you have the ability to flourish by being allowed to access good education but it's also you are saying that like the other block sucking children in this class yeah you know well what did education do for them so yeah i know it's a logical non-secretary that um that bothers you yes yeah but in any case you know not not a huge sin i think to to have confidence in yourself like that

and then so one of the other things that she draws upon is that you know this distinction between being a reporter and what she came to do which is you, a talk show host. And she'll go on to then talk about why people are also misrepresenting her by seeing her just as a talk show host. But initially, this is the distinction she's drawing between like reporting and a more talk show type approach. And the moment I sat on the talk show interviewing the Carvel ice cream man and his multiple flavors, interviewing the Carvel ice cream man and his multiple flavors, I knew that I had found home for myself because when I was a news reporter, it was so unnatural for me to cover somebody's tragedies and difficulties and then to not to feel anything for it. And I would go back after a fire and I would take them blankets and then I

would get a note from my boss saying, what the hell are you doing? You're just supposed to report. Can't be that empathetic. Cannot be that empathetic. And it felt unnatural for me. So if I were to put it in business terms or to leave you with a message, that the truth is, I have from the very beginning, listened to my instinct. All of my best decisions in life have come because I was attuned to what really felt like the next right move for me. And so it didn't feel right. So this might be a little bit unfair, but I just want to play a clip from a previous guru that you may remember talking about following your intuition. And anyway, I think in a time where there's a heavy inundation left, right and center,

where what to think is being spoon-fed to you, maybe you can spit out that hydrogenated thinking and let yourself feed off of your own thinking. Yeah. Well, some would say that's unfair. That's J.P. Sears. For people who don't know, just advising, there's various other clips I could play. It's one of his main things is, you know, to follow your intuitions. That's what guides you. And that's a very common motif in New Age spirituality, also in QAnon. But it's all about intuitions and coming into tune with the universe right yeah yeah so Oprah's been criticized for those self-help emotion driven intuition driven kind of philosophical ideas but you know that's true of like 90 of self-help type inspirational material and i think

it speaks to the fact that jpc's is and every basically all of them are drawing upon the same well of bland platitudes that's kind of how i read it yeah i, I get that. And there's also, just to highlight a point of difference, I will come back to these parallels, Mark, because I think there's more of them than perhaps the distinction that we're drawing suggests. But in any case, before that, there is some section where oprah essentially she notes you know about the jerry springer era of talk tv and you know the revelations about who's the follower of this child and all all those kind of things right and her having these moments where she realized she didn't want to be a part of that or she didn't want to use her platform to do that and the insight that she offers here is i think something that jpc-ers will

never reach so there's one where she talks about an episode where they had kkk members on and here's what she says i was interviewing klu klux klan and i I thought, as an African American, oh, I'm going to get them. I'm going to show for every Jewish person, for every person who's been discriminated against. And during the commercial break, I saw the Klan exchanging signals and looks at each other. And then something inside, that instinct, I thought, I am doing nobody any good. They are loving this. They are using me. I think I'm doing an interview.

They are using me. I did not know it at the time. I brought them on, actually, those same guys back for my last year. And they told me that they used that show for their recruitment. I could feel that happening. And I made a decision after that show for their recruitment. I could feel that happening. And I made a decision after that show, I'll never do anything like that again. I'll never let my platform be used and I will not be used.

Yeah, yeah. Seems like a good insight there. Yeah, that people in the gurus fear should consider. Like it isn't saying that there's no value that you could extract from dealing with people that are like extremists or whatever but what she's highlighting is that what you think you're doing is often not what is actually occurring or you have to be aware of other people's agendas and stuff and that's a very reasonable straightforward and and self-reflective point and i'm sure you can find lots of clips where it seems that oprah hasn't considered that right in her early content

but but it's true that i don't think she is known now for promoting like confrontations with the kkk or alt-right or that kind of thing right right? Yeah. Yeah, well, she talks a bit about how she looked at what someone like Jerry Springer, that's his name, isn't it, was doing, which is, you know, pretty low rent, confrontation based, cheesy reality TV. And I only vaguely remember Oprah Winfrey's content, but I do seem to remember what she's saying, checking out in that she seemed to go a little bit higher than that. Yeah. So she has this point where she talks about reaching, you know,

the decision to not go that route, but like they were having content. I think everybody in that era sort of was, you know, Ricky Leak or Sally, Jesse, Raphael and stuff. They all did go into the who's the parent and this person is sleeping with the granddad. People throwing chairs around on the stage. Yeah, I think that was mainly Jerry Springer's thing. It's like the WWE chair attacks. But yeah, she reflects on that era and she again mentions, you know, like a turning point.

Whether this is a self-generated or, you know, embellished memory or not, I think it is likely to have been a poignant turning point for her. And I literally, really, it still makes my eyes water to think about it. I looked at her face and I felt her humiliation. I felt her shame. I felt it humiliation. I felt her shame. I felt it. And I said, never again. I will get out of television if I have to do this. And I went and I had a meeting with the producers because I just had the Klan before.

Now I got the adulterous here. And some uplifting show, I must say. And I said to the producers, we are going to change. We're going to turn this around. And I'm no longer going to be used by television. I am going to use television. What a concept.

I'm going to use television as a force for, I didn't say at the time for good. I said, you know, let's think about what we want to say to the world and how we want to use this as a platform to speak to the world. How do we want to see the world change? How do we want to impact the world and then let all of our shows really be focused and centered around that? Look, I wouldn't think that Oprah or anyone in the television industry would sort of totally neglect commercial concerns

and totally forget about ratings and just say, oh, we're going to be a force for good and promote good things. That's what we're going to do. No, I don't believe that. But, I mean, I think it's plausible that someone who achieves that degree of popularity is throwing that much sort of weight around does have a fair bit of autonomy and ability to set the agenda a bit and she had the fruit she would have had the freedom to set the tone more and i

can well imagine her saying i'm going to use that those degrees of freedom that i do have to do the kind of show that i do have to do the kind of show that i want to rather than just going all out for ratings and nothing else yeah i think there's probably the likelihood that if you looked at the timeline you might find that the level of toleration for this kind of content may have went on much longer than you know this anecdote implies um yeah it wasn't like an overnight kind of yeah i did two episodes and kind of realized no this isn't for me right it's probably a couple of years i mean and i also should emphasize i think that like probably oprah's idea of what is promoting good in the world is kind of different from oh yeah we'll get

to that we'll get to that but but it's certainly i think it's certainly the case that that is what she really believes that she is doing and that is you know she does see herself as as promoting good things for the world and trying to make it a better place right sure now so i kind of link here before we get to the stuff that is actually being promoted is this concept about a destiny right the the it isn't just about oprah's personality it's kind of like a plan from the universe that she is manifesting and so like i said dissatisfaction with reporting led to talk shows and which were you know sort of looked down upon but then came to be you know highly regarded in part for what she did but there is then this point of like yes but it's not really about talk shows right so um

i have two clips that highlight this. It's not, I know what it looks like to the rest of the world. Oh, there's talk shows. But I really know what I'm here to do, which is the number one thing I would say to you. The first, let me answer your question. So no, there's nothing I'm not, I'm not scared to try. I haven't even, I have hit my stride, but I haven't done what I ultimately came to do. There still is a supreme moment of destiny that awaits me. And I also knew that during the Oprah show. The supreme moment of destiny. Do you think there's a supreme moment of destiny

still awaiting your life? You're much younger than Oprah. So, you know, what do we have to look forward to in the brown pantheon of life events? That's a good question. Yeah. Well, I guess this is what marks the difference between special people and the people, those of us who aren't. Maybe I need to feel like a...

You've got this podcast, Matt. Maybe this is it. This could be it. I could have peaked. this could be it i could have peaked um look yeah i i think you've manifested this podcast through the universe has a plan for you uh on decoding the gurus and this is you know everything led you to here and talking to me about so you know has, she does have a good point, I think. And she elaborates a bit more on this, actually, at various times. But here's a bit more of an elaboration about, you know, the importance of finding your purpose. Now, I happen to know for sure that every human being comes, comes called.

And that the calling goes beyond the definition of what your job is, that there is innate, there is an innate supreme moment of destiny for everybody. And that's why when I was in Baltimore, I could feel this isn't it. This isn't it. And then in Chicago, after 25 years of success on the show, I started to feel this isn't it. There's something more, something more, somethingawareness to be connected to what is the inner voice or the instinct. I call it your emotional GPS system, uh, that allows you to make the best decisions for yourself. And every decision that has profited me has come from me listening to that inner voice first. And every just every time i've gotten into a situation where i was in trouble it's because i didn't listen to it i overrode that voice that

instinct with my own with my own head my own thinking i tried to rationalize it yeah there's there's two two ways in which one could take that hey chris um like on one hand if i if i put aside the kind of manifest destiny the prosperity gospel got kind of part which and you just take it in terms of you know try to make those intuitive gut decisions in in a way like i was thinking back to myself like you know i worked at cs CSIRO as a maths guy and I was, it made sense to say that intellectually it made sense, but it just, it didn't feel like that's where I wanted to be. You know, I was doing a business thing for a while, which again, it kind of made sense

to keep doing that, but you know, I wasn't happy. So, you know, if you take it and, and I think I made the right call in making those changes. So Oprah's little reflections on her career and how she decided to make changes from one position and job thing to another, you know, I think it's good, you know, homespun wisdom in that sense. But I think, yeah, I get wary obviously in layering on that magical thinking or making cosmic and more profound than it is yeah yeah rather than it just being you know like listen

to your emotional response to things and intuitions as well as like thinking yeah like trying to do rational everything like based on rational cost benefit analysis like your emotions matter and maybe doing other cost benefit analysis right like you know people have these internal little things that say this situation is dodgy that person's untrustworthy and it's not always right but it it's telling you something right about like about how you judge the world usually so that's right like that there are some questions which are well suited to a kind of dispassionate intellectual analysis right but some questions are more suited to that intuitive

framing and i think you know choosing to move on from a job or you know go into a study something or whatever is more that kind of thing another example of that is like buying a house my mom's buying a house at the moment she's moving and when anyone's buying a house what they tend to do because it's such a big decision you know a lot of money involved and all that stuff people tend to kind of retreat to intellectualizing it and looking at in terms of costs and investments and all these things but you know ultimately it's like do you do you want to live there does it do yeah yeah do you feel excited about living there and so yeah that's that's the aspect of the advice which is good and you know you don't need to add the you know the deep it is i think you you australians with your bourgeois

concerns should i buy this house or that house what house should i buy the big question is should you renovate australian renovations it's all it matters i i watch bluey i know all about australian life now but um so but but there is a distinction there because like oprah clearly is off the more metaphysical bent when she's talking about that kind of thing so again this is her talking about destiny and you can hear that there is a kind of cosmic spiritual aspect to it in her framing i'm one of the lucky ones i got to be here so how do you continue to prepare yourself to live out the highest, fullest, truest expression of yourself as a human being?

And I just want to end with this. There are no mistakes. There really aren't any because you have a supreme destiny. When you're in your little mind, in your little personality mind, where you're not centered, where you really don't know who you

are, that you come from something greater and bigger, and that we really all are the same. When you don't know that, you get all flustered. You get stressed all the time, wanting something to be what it isn't. There is a supreme moment of destiny calling on your life. Your job is to feel that, to hear that, to know that. And sometimes when you're not listening, you get taken off track. You get in the wrong marriage, the wrong relationship. You take the wrong job. But it's all leading to the same path.

There are no wrong paths. There are none. There's no such thing as failure, really, because failure is just that thing trying to move you in another direction. So you get as much from your losses as you do from your victories, because the losses are there to wake you up. Again, Chris, yeah, it's the same mix, I think, of stuff that is on one level good advice. You do learn from your mistakes and so on. But the way it's framed sort of elevates it to a mystical and really like a religious kind of worldview. And I don't know.

I feel like Americans are a bit vulnerable to this somehow culturally. Like it's really common these sorts of it's it's it's like a mix between religion and a hallmark card and i just find that a certain kind of american a very nice person in other respects tends to be susceptible to it so oprah is by no means unusual in this respect no but i'll i'll raise a point that we raised in the gwyneth paltrow episode, and I think it applies here. So like, if you take that advice and you're applying it to your life isn't exactly where you want it to be, and you know, maybe things are going to get better

and like thinking that you can turn it around, all good, right? But this notion that the universe gives you your losses, your challenges in order to make you better. That's lovely when you're somebody, you know, from a middle class family who hasn't exactly found the job or the partner that you want in life and, you know, give you a positive image. What about the person who's suffered like severe abuse, whose family are drug addicts, who's stuck in the job that they don't like to make ends meet. But there's a kind of notion that everyone is destined for something great and beautiful and big, right? But the reality of the world is that not everyone can be a millionaire media mogul,

and that not every challenge makes people better. Some damaged people put them on the path that they didn't choose, that they don't deserve and that they can't cope with, right? And I feel that this notion that the universe is always trying to teach people lessons, it just doesn't account for stuff like a child who's heavily sexually abused by a parent and like what's that the universe trying to teach them that the world isn't fair like no you know there's going to be these cases where people get past that trauma and have very meaningful like lives for it but but it's the way of talking about that as if not realizing that this was like, you know, the universe trying to make you better means that you haven't really got the picture. And I think it isn't like that.

It is just the case that we live in a world where things aren't fair. And some people suffer more than others. Yeah, look, I might play devil's advocate here a little bit with you, Chris. play devil's advocate here a little bit with you, Chris, because I think what you're objecting to is true, which is that this Hallmark card life philosophy is not an accurate one in many respects. But you could take the view that having those kinds of beliefs is not helpful because it's true, but because it's helpful because it inspires i guess positive actions so so believing for instance i mean let me take a different example right so before she mentioned oh the naysayers were saying don't bother going to chicago they're racist there you'll never make

it in that thing and she said no you know i don't care i don't think that's going to be a problem now maybe they are racist in chic, but the problem with having negative beliefs and negative expectations about the future is that it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. So having this unrealistic optimism is arguably beneficial in many respects. Yeah, so the objection I have to it is the thing which comes with the kind of corollary to it is the thing which comes with the the kind of corollary to it that if you are successful

and actualized you deserved it right you took the moment and that is what brought you to there versus the people who failed in life who became drug addicts or, you know, didn't achieve their potential, right? There are plenty of people who die and haven't made this massive mark on society, right? And I think that there's a notion in it of predestination, but, you know, and it's the implication is everyone is predestined for greatness. And that's an uplifting message in one way but what if you don't achieve that then whose fault is that because everybody was destined for it so why did you feel yeah no i i totally agree with you there and it is the it is a negative corollary to an individualistic worldview that if you don't overcome,

if you don't succeed, if you don't learn from those difficult experiences, then the fault lies with you. I guess the only thing I'll say, though, is that, to be fair to Oprah, she doesn't, I think, claim that everyone has it within them to, whether it's luck or personal characteristics or whatever to have the same level of success as her like at other points here she emphasizes that people can kind of whatever flourish and you know make their mark in on a smaller stage or a bigger stage hers happened to be a big stage but she she was making that point as well yes she did she she talked about like you know if you want to be the best baker that you know that's it doesn't have to be

but i think there still is like there's just this element matt that like when you look at the people that are interviewed on the self-actualized shows right okay occasionally you'll get a care worker or whatever if they've you know written a book about their experiences but who is it most of the time it's like celebrities models uh you know ceos of companies it's a celebration of success and a celebration of people yeah and they're all talking about that how it's because of their you know they've manifested their spirituality and this has allowed them to flourish and i i i'm in line with our one of our philosopher friends aaron to say it i'm not saying that everything in the world is you know the beyond your control and people have no impact but there simply is the

fact that people have different opportunities depending on their circumstances and it's not all within your control to ship yeah like yeah yeah the part where i agree with you 100 is that i think anyone who has had any degree of success is almost always falls prey to the attribution era of attributing their call to their own decisions and their particular qualities. counterfactual world where oprah winfrey never existed there would be another woman probably a black woman who has filled that niche because in broadcast television a bit like the internet it is like a winner takes all scenario just like in information technology we're talking about what's his name he's the twitter guy what's his name elon musk elon musk right you know some people are going to be lucky and someone is going to fill that niche and and make it to the top and it's going to be some combination of their of their qualities their decisions and luck but you know if you know

that there is a person out there almost certainly who that if oprah wintry hadn't existed would be going on these talk shows and giving her legendary story of the explanations for her her rise to to to greatness yeah you invoked elon musk and i want to get to the point about you know elon musk talks about his his real mission being about preserving consciousness across the cosmos right and expand making humans interplanetary and and obviously him pandering to cat third two is just you know one step in the way to that great vision but before getting to the higher purpose talk just to finish off the bookend, that point about, you know, intentions and destiny and so on. Here's a little bit, again, about the emphasis placed on like

having the right intentionality to succeed. For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction. That is my religion. I know that what I'm thinking and therefore going to act on is going to come back to me in a circular motion, just like gravity, like what goes up comes down. And so what also propels the action is the intention. So I don't do anything without being fully clear about why I intend to do it, because the intention is going to determine the reaction, the result, or the consequence in every circumstance. I don't care what it is. So I said to my producers, come to me with your intention at whatever it is, whatever shows you're proposing, whatever ideas you're proposing. And then I will decide based upon the intention, do I really want to do that?

Is this how we want to use this platform? And that really is the secret to why we were number one all those years, is because it was an intention-fueled, intention-based, coming out of purposeful programming. Yeah, that's what it was. Great. out of purposeful programming. Yeah, that's what it was. Great. I didn't really understand that.

I didn't understand the link to every action has an equal and opposite reaction. It's kind of like listening to Deepak Chopra at points. No, I think I can draw the connection for you. It's a secret, Matt. Remember that Oprah promoted the book by Ron De byrne about the secret right the kind of manifestation metaphysical book about you know what you want to achieve the secret is that if you just visualize and believe that you will create it you will manifest that into reality and what social what she's talking about is you know whatever project you're promoting or whatever it is you want to do, come with me with, you know, the, the kind of spiritual intention, what you want to materialize in the universe. And, and I will then decide, you know, if that project is good and like the, the specific details are kind of less important to them the manifested intention that you you know what

you're going to pull from the universe towards you i see yeah there's always like two two levels on which to to read what she's saying there's because i get what you've just said but at a if you ignored all that and took it at a very basic level it she was saying at the end there that when when when people would come to me with some proposal or some opportunity or whatever i would say okay and then i would think carefully about whether it was in my best interests and fit with what i wanted to achieve and then i would give a yes or a no based on that which is like that's that's that's fine that makes sense yeah that that is not how i read that comment but you know in in actual practice that is likely what what was occurring that's what i think was occurring yeah but you know part of it is like dressing up pretty much homespun wisdom with that philosophy, like

self-help philosophical, spiritual stuff, like from the secret, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, this might be flogging that horse at this point, but like to, to emphasize the kind of importance of self-actualization and realizing the person that you were destined to be, she is asked about, you know, what advice she would give women. And this is framed around Sheryl Sandberg and giving, you know, the kind of lean in advice. And here is what she says. And Sheryl Sandberg.

And last year she published the book Lean In and has gotten incredible traction. It had some, you know, criticism as well. And I was wondering if you were to write a book on women in careers, what would your title be? Mine would be actually, mine wouldn't be Lean In. It would be Step Up and Into Yourself. Because this is the truth. and into yourself. Because this is the truth. There is no real doing in the world without being first. For me, being your presence, your connection to yourself, and that which is greater than yourself is far more important than what you do, is far more important than what you do, but also is the thing that fuels what you do. And I know that one of the things that is so important for what happens here at the graduate school is that you have leaders who are self-actualized and understand what your contribution to change the world can be you can only do that if you know yourself you can only do that unless you take unless you

you cannot do it unless you take the time to actually know who you are and why you are here yeah so chris i mean i like like Oprah best when she's talking in concrete terms and she's just letting her personality shine, frankly. And, you know, she's talking about her real life and making jokes and all that stuff because she's incredibly charming and endearing and charismatic. But when she goes this way and she starts sounding like the the sense makers that we've covered or deepak chopra like i mentioned or you mentioned the secret and yeah i i don't it doesn't maybe that stuff means something to some people i get the same feeling with the sense makers like clearly what they're saying means something to them but it just doesn't mean anything to me and you saw that bit that creeped in as well

about you know self-actualized leaders who can change the world right it's it's a little bit like the the kind of philosopher kings yeah yeah and and it's the same vibe that's why i thought of the sense makers i guess because they do feel that there is this special class of people who are running 70 to 90 paradigms at the same time and have have self-actualized that are going to do these amazing things and i it just it leaves me a bit cold because that language doesn't doesn't lend confidence to me yeah i i see it a bit more like that people who you know this is this is my left-wing perspective i think coming out that like people who are wealthy businessmen you know greed is good gordon gecko types they also want to have like spiritual

philosophical side so like of course the you know i also read nichi and i yeah you know i'm i'm a self like jack dorsey techno monks right yeah so i actually chris chris i mentioned that to you um i've been watching succession and i know you've seen Succession, and that was a point about it that really rang true for me that I appreciated, that you have these ultra-rich people that are super wealthy. They may well be movers and shakers in the business sphere, but what comes across really well in that show is how, especially the younger ones, they desperately feel

that they ought to be able to shine in every context you know they should be the hip kind of coolest people in town at the cool parties they should be all of these things and it's you know and they fail and they terribly cringe in a very entertaining way when they try to do so and i i think it's the same kind of thing it's kind of not enough for someone like oprah to be hey i've been a tremendously successful uh talk show host and i've done these great things and that's that's what i do and if you want advice about how to be how to succeed in media then i'll talk to that it sort of needs to be extended to be this all-encompassing spiritual leader. And the final point I'll make is that there is, again,

something a little bit uniquely American in this because someone like Oprah Winfrey, she is on the liberal left side of politics, right, sponsoring democratic campaigns, all of that kind of thing. She would definitely have very liberal progressive opinions in the american context but it is a slightly uniquely american thing where especially the rich and famous people they managed to combine the right on social attitudes with that sort of born to rule yeah yeah it's an odd it is an odd combination and i well i actually

have a speak a clip that speaks to that so it's it's kind of like conscious capitalism cool and i just had a conversation with john mackie who runs whole foods yeah and has written this fabulous book you should get it called Conscious Capitalism. And he was talking about how the investment in the stakeholders, the people who you are serving, that connection between the people who you're trying to serve and sell to is equally as important as the people who you're buying from, equally as important as the people who are, you know, supporting you financially, as your stockholders if you are, you know, a public company. So I always understood that there really was no difference between me and the audience.

At times I might have had better shoes, but at the core, the core of what really matters, that we are the same. And you know how I know that? Because all of us are seeking the same thing. Conscious capitalism, you're on board. It's about, you know, profiting, but, you know, in a way that helps the world. Yeah, yeah. Well, a couple of things.

Firstly, I think where she's coming from there is resolving that cognitive dissonance between the fact that she her role as being that very emotive very personalized talk show host all about grappling with everyday issues really having that sort of parasocial relationship with the audience that's at odds of course with the fact that she's worth just so much money lives in a mansion all that stuff lives a very different life moves in different circles from the average person that would be in her audience so i guess she needs to resolve that in terms of conscious capitalism chris i'm this is probably an unpopular opinion but i think just let capitalism be capitalism don't don't expect anything apart

from capitalists except for obeying the rules and regulations and that government set for them and tax the hell out of them i don't like the conscious capitalism thing much because it kind of rests on you know expecting the rich people to be to be good yeah regulate the bastards yeah that's what i say force them like yeah i i mean i'm not against in any sense people trying to inject into corporations and whatnot you know that they they do need to have considerations about impacts on environment and this kind of thing it's all but it doesn't hurt it doesn't hurt i just wouldn't rely on it no exactly i'm very suspicious of their ability to self-regulate those things or to do i don't i'm not suspicious of their ability to run workshops and have engaging conversations about you know jimmy wheel gives talks at the

goldman sachs right yeah yeah that's right i i have complete faith in their ability to generate truly exceptional dei statements and environmental responsibility statements. I have a lot of faith in that. But, yeah. So is that her thing, conscious capitalism? Well, well, well, well. There is a little bit more to be said about that, I think. But linking to it, Matt, that point that i i raised before about you know the kind

of guests that oprah has on her super soul sunday show right it typically is your your famous celebrities your singers your ceos your you know that kind of people and And here's her talking a little bit about that. And I do think there is a connection here. I do a show on Sundays, which you can stream live called Super Soul Sunday, where I literally talk to thought leaders from around the world and ask the questions, not as good as you, I'm going to consult with you, ask the questions in life that really matter, to get people thinking about what really matters in their lives. And the responses that I get from people just regarding that show, let me know that I'm on the right track, I'm moving in the right direction. And so I'm not afraid because I know that all of us have limited time here.

But the real question is, who are you and what do you want to do with it? And how are you going to use who you are? My favorite line from from from Seal of the Soul is when the personality comes to serve the energy of your soul. That is authentic empowerment. When the personality comes to serve the energy of your soul, that is authentic empowerment. Important. You should get a tattoo of that.

I'm going to get embroidered that and put it on my wall. Yeah. i'm gonna get embroidered that and put it on my wall yeah that's so again it's you know there's that aspect math of we're all the same we all want the same thing you know i'm just somebody more expensive shoes than you but the the thought leaders out there you know the way i want to spend my time is conversing with them about how they became authentically empowered self-actualizers that are transforming the world through conscious capitalism yeah yeah yeah so that's how i like that that's my lefty critique of this sphere but is it a lefty critique or is it just a you know i don't buy it i don't buy it yeah isn't it just the way of the

world though like you could grab random people off the street and or you could get people that are professionals at talking professionals at writing um oh yeah yeah somewhat famous and like one of those makes the show and the other one doesn't sure sure but the difference is the difference is what you say what you're doing right and i i feel a little bit of it that there's a cake and eating it scenario here where you know everybody's this here my care just as much about the ordinary man in the street as I do the CEO of Whole Foods company, but give me a network where I have complete freedom of choice to interview whoever I want. And 95% of the time I'm sitting down with my fellow millionaires, right?

Like, I just think you have to factor that in. And maybe, Oprah, I don't know because I haven't, like, you know, cataloged her content. It might be the case that her network does make an effort to feature ordinary people who are doing good things in the world but at least from what i saw it's much more you know the projects volunteering and has a food program yeah yeah I wouldn't I don't know either but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case no Matt no I will say that you know in the content that we cover, there are sometimes insights given which I think are relevant.

They might not be the most novel, but I think the people we cover, they can make good points. Jordan Peterson can. Sam Harris does. Even J.P. Sears might have said something. Might have said, like, eat more vegetables or something like that. You probably didn't. They probably said the opposite. might have said something might have said like eat more vegetables or something like that right like you you probably didn't they probably said the opposite but you you never know he might have said something like it's nice to be hugged by people or something like that right he probably

said that um but so i like this little bit where she you know encountered what i'm saying about this this being a little bit of a faux pose about, you know, we're all the same except for we wear different shoes. She talks about what she sees from, what she's learned from interviewing so many people and where there's a kind of connective thread between all of them. And I think this is like sort of insightful, or at least to me it rang true.

And this is what she said. And when I sit down to talk to somebody, whether I'm talking to a murderer, is like sort of insightful or at least to me it rang true and this is what she said and when i sit down to talk to somebody whether i'm talking to a murderer i sat down i interviewed a guy who'd killed his twin daughters i've interviewed child molesters trying to figure out what what it is what is what it is they do and why they do it obviously lots of people who've been victimized through molestation, presidents, politicians, Beyonce herself. At the end of every interview, the murderer to Beyonce, the question everybody asks that you mentioned is, was that okay? How was that? Everybody says that. that you mentioned is, was that okay?

How was that? Everybody says that. And now I just wait for it. Was that okay? Was that okay? And when I finish, I'll say to you, was that okay? Hmm. So, you know, the notion that even the most hardened, you know,

criminal or depraved individual to the the like highest person they want they want validation right they want to know they did a good job i kind of thought that that is likely to be the case i'm sure there are some exceptions but like yeah you know people people want to be perceived well i mean you know maybe it breaks down with serial killers and psychopaths i'm not sure they but but you know even now i'm pretty sure charles manson didn't wouldn't say that after the he just dance around and act weird but no no i thought that was good too i think um yeah you know she was pointing at just a little observation about that little bit of common humanity with everyone and you know she mentioned

that she speaks to i guess normal people for whom to whom exceptional things have happened or who have done terrible or exceptional things there too which goes against slightly the idea that she would only be interviewing you know celebrities and no but that's her yeah i she obviously she did she had a talk show you you know, for like decades. She talked to many people, but I'm talking about Nye in her. Nye that she's self-actualized to a strong degree, right? And she has the ability to do whatever she wants. Yeah.

I have to admit, I do kind of prefer, like she reminded me a little bit of Louis Thoreau in that i think he threads the needle quite nicely too actually which is to i guess bring out the humanity and some very despicable or strange people without you know whitewashing them or making out that they're they're actually they're all fine now and i she reminded me of him a little bit but i think he really does get out there with with non-famous people like it would not be tempted to go that route of of being you know following the beyonces and the jackdaw seas of the world and that louis for who has louis for meets where he like you know michael Jackson, he tried to do it with.

Oh, okay. So he does have a series where he, but it tends to be like eccentric characters, Chris Eubank, the boxer, and various politicians, and Jimmy Savile, famously, before the revolutions. So just a little nugget to fit into your louis thoreau pipe yeah i'm not a louis thoreau fan boy i i only clearly not i'll throw him under the bus i don't need any encouragement i casually consumed a little bit

of his content yeah well i mean you know it's a good illustration that you can do both things right so i might be being a little unfair to emphasize the the kind of celebrity aspect but it just i get a similar vibe they do the gwyneth paltrow's content right like i'm i'm not saying they never have ordinary people or whatever it's it's more that the kind of delta between the rhetoric and and what the actual like focus of the content is yeah no i understand yeah like it's nothing there's nothing wrong with just having a show where you just interview celebrities and politicians and yeah because you are a celebrity yeah it's fine people like celebrities and want to hear from them like it's perfectly fine but it's just

yeah it's just the discrepancy i know with, with what you're saying, the self-presentation of the thing. But I think part of it too is that cultural thing where I think people of ilk, Americans that is, tend to be more effervescent and more sort of aspirational in their language. You know, like they tend to really go hard there and will say things like, you know, I love each and every one of you and oh yeah yeah you know all that stuff that was awesome yeah yeah you can say that was awesome when it was fine it was just okay it was pretty good all right yeah so we're gonna factor in our cultural differences is what i'm that is true that's

true i mean it's on display everyone can hear them but yeah so i like i think though matt this diagnosis about you know people want validation they want to be told they're good there's there's just a very little clip that follows up on that and i think this applies to a lot of the guru sphere all of your arguments are really about the same thing it's's about, did you hear me? Did you see me? And did what I say mean anything to you? That's what everything's about. Oh, Eric Jordan, if only you knew that you just want everyone to say,

we hear you, we see you. You're important, you are valid. Yeah, we've watched you put on your jacket. We know you. You're important. You are valid. Yeah. We've watched you put on your jacket. We know you're in waiting. But it's true, right? I think a lot of it is online in the gurusphere, further afield.

A lot of it is, you know, could be presented as childish, but I think it's just an aspect of psychology. People acting out for attention like yeah and um validation yeah yeah and even if that means pissing off a certain segment in order to get validation from another segment that's okay right as long as somebody is telling you you matter james lindsay you matter well done well done mate you're on the right you're on the right you got your big boy pants you put them on you're all right now thank you yeah a lot of a lot of truth in that a lot of truth in that i think yeah oh no no i i only i just have another clip which is like takes

it from gurus to more personal things. So maybe I'll play that and I'll allow you to continue your thought. Unmolested. I also know that's what every human being is looking for. They're looking to know, are you fully here with me? Are you fully here or are you distracted? That's what your children want to know. That's what the people you work for want to know. That's what the people

you work for want to know. That's what you want to know. Did you hear me? And every argument isn't about whatever it is you think you're arguing about. It's really about, but can you hear me? And many people have even said it. Have you not said it? You're not hearing me. You're not hearing me. So having that understanding. You're not hearing me. That's that understanding you're not hearing me that's the thing you're hearing me that's something i just gotta say that's something that americans say it's not something the rest of us say anyway i often do you say it yeah i often i often think it when i'm talking to you offline because i know that i know that you multitask i know that you get distracted i know that my words do not penetrate sometimes what were you saying something

no i i do hear you matt but i i do have arguments with various people and i feel like i mean and i sure they feel the same in reverse that like they're not actually we're arguing about different things nobody's really listening to each other oh yeah it's it's like kind of just and what you what people often want is this i think is well known to many people in many segments that sometimes the argument is not about the argument it's just about saying yes i understand that that's bad yeah yeah i know i've got a friend who's actually remarkably good at that like he at actually paying attention to people like like really paying full attention wow yeah i know because because most of us don't like you say we're more interested in what we've got to say

than than what the other person does and he's very good at it. He doesn't always use his powers of empathy for good. He'll often use what he's learned about them against them. But it is a skill to do that. So, you know, I think she's hitting, you know, there's some truth in those tapestry platitudes. Yeah. I liked it. I liked it.

Now, a little bit less of something i liked it so and this this i think connects to the conscious capitalism kind of stuff so when she's talking about her mission right so as we said it's bigger than just being you know a talk show host or a celebrity there's a bigger purpose that the universe has decreed behind it. I sit here, you know, profitable, successful by all the definitions of the world. But what really, really, really resonates deeply with me is that I live a fantastic life. that I live a fantastic life. My inner life is really intact.

I live from the inside out. And so everything that I have, I have because I let it be fueled by who I am and what I realize my contributions to the planet could be. And what my real contribution is, it looks like I was a talk show host. It looks like, you know, I'm in the movies. It looks like, you know, I have a network. But my real contribution is it looks like I was a talk show host. It looks like, you know, I'm in the movies. It looks like, you know, I have a network. But my real contribution, the reason why I'm here is to help connect people to themselves and the higher ideas of consciousness.

I'm here to help raise consciousness. So my television platform was to help raise consciousness. So my television platform was to help raise consciousness. Yeah. Well, that rubs me the wrong way too, Chris. What's wrong with raising consciousness, Matt? Why are you against consciousness being raised? What's wrong with just dedicating your life to helping people connect with themselves? I mean, it sort of goes what we're

saying before it's a bit like how every massive oil corporation tells you that their mission is to build stronger communities and you know foster a better world for our children and you know just be honest your job your your mission in life is making money for an oil company. And that's okay. But, you know, it's the acting that you're doing something else. And I think Oprah is a perfectly nice person. I know she's done charitable work and things like that. But it would be nice to see just a little bit more acknowledgement of the, you know, the luck, luck i suppose that's involved when someone is

rampantly successful i mean like if you take someone like bill gates i've heard of bill gates speak a few different times and i like here's an example or i don't know warren buffett or there are other people that are rich that i i haven't heard them give these sort of self-serving legends of how everything they have, everything that they've accomplished is because they manifested and expressed their true nature and so therefore all the good things came to them and their mission in life is to help other people do the same. I mean, no, you can go and do charitable things

and the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has done a lot of stuff without having that schmaltzy, self-aggrandizing story. Yeah, and there's an aspect of it which creeps into using this as the assessment of all those. So listen to this clip. I've done the, was doing and continue to this day to do the consciousness work. I work at staying awake. And being awakened is just another word for spirituality,

but spirituality throws people off and they think you mean religion. When I was hiring people for my company, for OWN, looking for presidents, when people would come in, I'd say, tell me, what is your spiritual practice? And literally, people would go, well, I'm not religious. I said, I didn't ask you about your religion. I asked you what's your spiritual practice. What do you do to take care of yourself? What do you do to keep yourself centered? What do you do to the... And one do you do and you know one woman started crying

you know that's not the person that's a sign that's a sign yeah what would you say Chris if someone asked you what's your spiritual practice fuck off like I know what answer they want they want to talk you know

like we were talking before off air about chat gpt's ability to you know produce these speeds about any kind of topic right and if i asked gpt the 4.0 to say write me a statement about my internal transformation and the spiritual practices that I do but don't link it to religion right it could give me the spiel that I could do and I could talk about you know how I have these like deep working meditative processes and i take mindfulness breaks and work and i'm you know i have a passionate devotion to the like revealing truth to the world like in creating this critical engagement getting people to self like no you know you can you can you can dress it all up and stuff like that but i i don't like that that and and it's kind of forcing it's presented as that will get you to the real people the people who have like done the work and

reflected on that and i think no that it might get you those people it'll also get you to the cosmic bullshitters which are a large part of oprah's network and the people that she's ended up promoting right these are not people who are themed for their self-awareness it's people who are themed for being able to talk in self-aggrandizing terms and to kind of code it in a thick layer of spiritual blather so yeah yeah yeah yeah i have i have the same feelings. Yeah. I think that kind of blather, that kind of facility with words and a willingness to indulge in that flowery language, it's an indication of something. But, you know, you'll be filtering out a lot of people

that just temperamentally don't like to do that kind of thing and um yeah anyway whatever they probably wouldn't be a particularly good fit for oprah she's probably no that's true i'm sure it actually works it it works as a good filter for her i'm sure like yeah but so the the raising consciousness and there's also there's always a bit of cringe when you're describing yourself as an awakened person. Like, you know, fine for other people to say that about you. You probably should not say it about yourself. Sam Harris, take note.

No, but I'll let her just, this is reiterating this point, but you can kind of hear a bit about how she sees the mission and the bigger purpose again. I started talking this consciousness, spiritual talk, you know, two months after I started the show. And my producers would all be like, oh God, there she goes again. But I knew that even though masses of people were not tuning in for that, that the whole purpose of that platform was to try to lift people up. And now I have a network and I can articulate what it is I'm trying to do. I'm trying to bring little pieces of light into people's lives. Because what is my job?

My job is not to be an interviewer. My job is not to be a talk show host or just to own a network. I am here to raise the level of consciousness, to connect people to ideas and stories so that they can see themselves and live better lives. Thank you. Yeah. That's it. But isn't that part of like all of our guru figures, they do see themselves as having this bigger purpose.

And, you know, we, we, I mentioned Elon Musk, as I said, you know, he, he claims to have these grand inspirations or I, you know, I think to some extent he does believe that that's ultimately what's motivating them but it's it's it's a nice thing to have this image of yourself as a like cosmic force which is transforming the world through being a millionaire and owning companies and producing talk shows right or owning twitter and shit posting about whatever right-wing chuckle fuck has grabbed your attention that day. Like, I just, there's this thing where, you know, when we've hammered this point

throughout the episode, that when people reach a certain degree of success in whatever industry it is, they, you know, it's kind of Maslow's hierarchy of needs thing. There comes this point where they like to see themselves as having some bigger spiritual transformative mission and society is often telling them that's the case right like i see it with sam altman the the guy the ceo of open ai he's he's being constantly asked in interviews about you know to like generate deep thoughts

about the the universe and mankind and so on and it's it's something that we do when people reach you know as jordan peterson would say the top of competence hierarchies or status hierarchies that we we see those people as as special as having insight that you know that that could help us achieve something like that and yeah it's i think it's just a an aspect of being a social premier and and like uh having high regard for those that look like they are high regarded by a large amount of people in our society and are successful yeah i think i think when you're someone as successful and rich as oprah winfrey is it's difficult to avoid that kind of self-nithologizing in a way and you know to to um to defend her a bit i see that she's you she ranks among the 50 most generous Americans.

By 2012, she'd given away about $400 million to educational causes. You could list off a whole bunch of other stuff. And I'm sure it's the case that whatever projects she's working on now, she does have the discretion to go, well, I'm not just going to do stuff that's going to make more money or get better ratings or whatever. I do well at the box office i'm going to do something because by my lights i feel like it's a good thing to do because when you do have that many resources available to you have the discretion to do that kind of stuff so but then yeah she does that she does that and deserves you know credit for doing that but doesn't don't we have to put onto the ledger the promotion of anti-vaxxers, the promotion of

pseudoscience, especially in the era of a pandemic that we experienced? A lot of the people in Oprah's extended networks were not figures that were great for you know the the impact of actual medicine during the the pandemic and that that all counts on the other side of the the ledger i think for her social impact um yeah so i mean i look i agreed there i'm speaking to her motivations rather than her critical thinking or ability to necessarily make good decisions by my lights. You know, like I'm sure having Dr. Oz on and stuff like that at the time, maybe even now, she's clearly into spirituality and various kinds of woo.

So for her, that would seem like a positive thing for the world, right? Right. She's wrong. She's wrong. Having Dr. Oz on is never a good idea you know and putting sudden making someone like that more influential it's a harmful thing yeah i'm speaking to her motivations rather than the the outcome she's the one that brought up people using your platform to spread their message, and you have to consider that, though. So heed your own words, Oprah. Don't worry, Oprah.

I'm on your side. I won't let him say these mean things about you. If you want to donate a large amount to the Gurus Foundation. Make it out to me. I'll take care of it. Yeah, send it to Matt. That's fine. He'll take care of it yeah send it to matt that's fine he'll take care of it so

yeah like the i but you know she's a i think she is a mixed mind and i i do agree i think it's we've covered the general stuff that she does right and i think there always is with people like oprah people like brené brown and brené brown maybe like less so but than oprah but there's always the interpretation that is like maximally focused on the harm that is done and the promotion of pseudoscience and that kind of thing and and also the self-aggrandizing you know prosperity gospel nature of the message. But you can always go the other side of a more charitable interpretation about self-empowering people who are feeling depressed, focusing on positive stories, giving people, you know, the message that their life has meaning. No matter what they're doing you're you know you

you matter the universe cares about you and both things are true and it is certainly the case that like her message resonates with a large amount of people so yeah it's kind of there wasn't that much in this content that surprised me about what she does. And she is charismatic and likable even when peddling disinformation. It's a, it's a unfortunate thing that those two things can be, you know, detached from each other,

but, but the spiritual stuff and the, yeah. And the, the underlying prosperity gospel doctrine, it just, I really don't like it and i i think it does do harm it gives the message that your your success is ultimately tied to your spiritual worth

which it it need not be no no i don't think there's any such thing as spiritual worth anyway i think it's a totally imaginary concept but yeah yeah it's kind of hard chris because even when oprah is being self-aggrandizing i guess and talking about the legend of herself she she does it in a very charming and engaging way that is self it's somehow managed to be self-deprecatory as well she's picking herself up she yeah she's very good and personable i have one final clip i didn't play that makes that point it's like when she's receiving prayers and she kind of says how much she enjoys it but it comes across as sort of endearing rather than narcissistic so let me just play it and i'll let

you continue so oprah you are a true Renaissance woman. You know, you have your own network. You had this amazingly successful show for 25 years. You've been in movies. You are one of the most important philanthropists of our time. So what are the qualities? I love hanging around you. I'm just taking it all in. I love it too. You know, the part I love the most is Renaissance Woman. As you said that, I went, what does that really mean? Yeah, that's a good example. There's lots of that all the way through it.

And so, yeah, like, you know, just on a purely personal level, you get the vibe that Oprah would be a nice person to hang out with, right? She'd be good company. As long as you don't annoy her i wouldn't i wouldn't i'd be i'd be respectful i'd be i'd give her lots of compliments i wouldn't be annoying chris i i don't know if i but i just you know with these people i can't help but think matt the there's so many like where the she's a veteran of the media she knows how to come across as likable i wonder if her personal assistants share the assessment about you know her inner strength oh sure cam sure sure yes our public persona on camera is not necessarily the same one as whatever. No, mine is.

Yours is. That's right, because you're not famous and nobody cares. Well, that's true. Nobody cares and you're not famous. Thanks, Matt. Yeah, look, I don't have much to add to what you said, Chris. I think it's it's all pretty obvious there's no secret decoding necessary here oprah's got a lot of stuff going for her and

is you could perfectly understand why she achieved such rampant popularity and success and you know, you and I are culturally allergic to the kind of schmaltzy, spiritual, self-aggrandizing stuff that people like that do. and the harmful aspects of some aspects of that prosperity gospel stuff, which in a way really just legitimizes, makes the people that are on top that have succeeded, makes them not just better people in a pragmatic sense or in terms of being physically better off than other people, but also makes the people at the top, like just better than us spiritually as, and that is a bit on the nose. So,

um, but you know, that's all right. It's not the worst thing, I suppose. So there's a lot of it about. Good endorsement. It's all right.

It's not the worst thing. It could be more terrible. Yeah. Yeah. I, I agree. So, so that's oprah done she's in the bag get in there with jordan peterson and jpc there's a colonel in the bag no you have to live together i'll make a final statement though chris i reckon just you know despite my equivocal statement there

she's definitely a guru she's definitely a oh yeah like a leading light self-help guru like the way that the audience responds to her and the way that people interact with her is that they they they do see her as as someone with these special messages she presents herself as someone who has got you know has figured out the meaning of life and the the the way to be a perfectly fully actualized person and she sees her mission and the way to be a perfectly, fully actualized person. And she sees her mission at the moment to try to dispense that kind of wisdom and a lot of people are here for it. So very much a guru in that self-help, yeah, schmaltzy mode.

Yeah, yeah. As to whether she's toxic, I mean, you know, and I'll also say that going back to what I was saying, like a lot of that stuff is delusional, that stuff about there being this sort of, you know, special inner light and spiritual, you know, all that fluffy stuff, which I just don't think is real. having unrealistic beliefs can actually be a positive thing. Like having a negative view about society and the world and your potential, whatever, is not going to help you overcome things. No, it might be accurate. It might be accurate, but it's better to pretend it's not like that

and just give it a shot because, you know, there might be a lot of luck involved, but definitely it's the people that give it a shot that do well. Yeah, yeah, I agree. Now, Matt, one final question. Is she coming on Guru Island? You know, we've been deciding who's going to come along with us. We were taking Paul Bloom and who was the other one?

Travis View. Travis View. Travis View and Paul Bloom are on board. We've only had kind of interviews since then, but this is our first. Are we going to take care? Well, I think we should do this like picking a soccer team. So all the kids have lined up and you and I are the captains

and we get to pick one at a time and there's like the top picks. Like Travis, obviously, he's my top pick. I'm going to pick him first. Wow. We need to do that in a special episode then because there's too many gurus but i so i ask you matt this is purely to set my baseline do you want her on your island on your team i don't know about her practical skills like nunchuck skills firefighting skills yeah bow knife skills that kind of stuff i don't know about any of that

but i don't think many of the gurus maybe yeah choco seems like he could handle himself look she she definitely rank above a large proportion of our gurus but my but i have doubts about her survival skills what a politician you are she'd have rented the politics. I will just straight up say she's coming on the island. She'll be good for morale. She'll lead us. She would be good for morale. Yeah, she'll be, you know, we'll be wandering.

She'll be giving us pep talks. She'll be giving us pep talks. She'll be like, guys, I know it's tough, but we were meant to be here. Exactly. Fate put us here on this island. It's up to us to make the best of things. Yeah.

It's going to be great. Yeah. She's coming. No, you're right. You're right. She'll be the morale officer. Yeah. Yeah.

So there we go. That's another one added to the island. So Matt, we're approaching the end, the new month of the episode is that a word is that what you say uh approaching the what sorry denouement is that oh yes yes denouement yes french i believe um see oh yeah spell it i probably can't spell it i can't pronounce pronounce it though. So we have coming up, Matt, on our little ledger, some things that people might be interested in. We have a Christopher Hitchens episode upcoming,

planned in the works with a special guest, Hitchens expert, that you're doing. We have a return to Weinstein world. We're going to see what Eric and Brett have been saying about UFOs. And we also intend to look at an AI guru, perhaps Eliezer Yudikowsky or Stephen Wolfram. And then we're also going to be looking at people like chomsky the red scare people destiny perhaps streamers there's many things for people to look forward to these are all on our dockets matt they're they're on our little list i feel exhausted just just hearing about all of this just tell me about the one thing at a time it's it's like you know it's like

gandalf introducing the dwarves to bilbo baggins if you tell me everything at once i'm going to feel overwhelmed and tired just just tell me the next thing next thing is probably hitchens isn't it it's probably hitchens we'll see yeah it's hitchens hitchens next year and we'll be speaking to a chap matthew sheffield in the near future as well about donald trump perhaps and the degree to which i'm not even talking about the guest mat those people i could mention i could say renee di resta well you know are we just throwing out yes so agreed anyway there's exciting things coming up and we will have the decoding academia episodes and the additional garometer breakdown on the patreon if you can't wait the the time till the next release so you know plenty of content for people to go around now

speaking of content and assessments of content and how people feel about content reviews matt we've had a few but now we face the final handful um no so i don't i we we have received a burst of reviews in response to the requests the endless requests for them so i'll just do a little quick review of reviews this week so time efficient dean stevens this is the review time efficient i see that's already sounding like it's going to be sarcasm you know how i feel about sarcasm well it says why spend three hours listening to an internet huckster when these guys can thoroughly debunk their worst ideas in only two hours and 45 minutes the coding indeed the coding the girls is the kurtz gesagt of deprogramming internet snake oil salespeople that's a very nice compliment i like like that. That is a nice compliment.

And it only takes two and a half hours for us to do it. How long is it? 15 minutes. How does do it in 15 minutes? They explain quantum mechanics in 15 minutes. We should be able to do a guru in 10. They've been firing on all

cylinders recently. They did an episode responding to criticism about their funding model, and I thought it was pretty good. Oh, really? Yeah, they broke down where all their money comes from, and it was not what people presented. So, you know, just go have a look. And they've done an episode recently about aliens and various things.

It's good. Kurt, go watch it. Go watch it. Hey, since we're various things, it's good. Kurt, go watch it. Go watch it. Hey, since we're recommending things, I want to sneak in a recommendation for PBS Space Time, which is a YouTube channel. You can search for that. You'll find it.

They just make little short videos about physics and space and that kind of thing. But, you know, there's a lot of crap on YouTube. This will surprise you, Chris, I know. A lot of of crap on youtube this will surprise you chris i know a lot of the content on youtube is not that great and even when it comes to space and physics stuff a lot of it falls into the kind of mind-blown kind of category wow space is big you know it's so big you know so yeah but this one is smart it's at that right level of being, yeah, you know, like accessible to someone like me who doesn't know anything about physics,

but that is actually talking about something, yeah, genuinely interesting. So, yeah, PBS Space Time, it's a good one. We've got friends who have got physics podcasts as well, Chris, online. Do we? We do. Are they my friends sam gregson sam greg all right yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i think about him a little bit you know associated with lab like but that is true he does he does physics stuff more so it's just lab like it's a hobby that's right lab like it's a hobby his day job is a large hadron collider physicist so yeah he does lab like it's a hobby sounds like he's just you know just leaking viruses that's that's the image that the lab like it's half though

so i my a negative review i came across this one so i i enjoy it because it's like very detailed negative food truck and it may have a point so it says uh it's by decorno and it says i want to love the show but the lead ends are way too long i understand in the most recent episode they wanted to provide context to the lab leak issue but the actual interview content of the show doesn't begin until 30 minutes into the episode and even then they ask the panel to introduce themselves even when they already provided bios in their half-hour lead-up my recommendations one edit in a 20 second clip at the start of the show to tease the actual good content two limit intro chit chat to 90 seconds three get on with it. I love their intelligence, humor, and the

premise of the show. It would be much better if they tightened it up. He's probably right. They're probably right. Well, no. It would be better if we tightened it up and we put more effort in and we did more preparation. We had a script.

Tish, pish, Matt. There's two schools of thought on this. There's the school that want you know npr style high production values they want efficient knowledge transfer just give me the goods edit the interview down to 20 seconds put it into my brain eject the information directly into my brain mainline that shit don't tell me anything like what's that word extraneous that i i don't need to know about then that other people prefer some foreplay there are there are many people who are like give me more release the on the other the nine hour cut right they just

and they say don't ever stop the the banter is all we want we want we want you to cut out the interviews and look we can't make all of you happy we can't we can't do it because you want different things but we can make ourselves happy and isn't that what really matters here if we really think about it um look we have to not forget that there's a large segment of our audience who listens to our podcast to go to sleep. They have insomnia. They need a long, meandering introduction to send them off to dream time. And we need to cater for them as well. And we have to make content that lasts for like two weeks. We release roughly on a two-week schedule.

So, you know, just think about it like that. It's not a three hour episode it's three hours for the till you over that's right that's good last i thought you gotta ration it to last you that whole period there's people hassling us to put out more episodes i mean yeah what do you want make up your mind shorter intros like for many people 30 minutes of chris and matt in a fortnight is not enough. That's not enough Chris and Matt. They want to know, is he still eating nuts?

What's that stuff that the elves? Oh, lembas. Lembas? Yeah, we're like lembas bread for people. That's how you should treat us. Just nibble a little bit and then you put it back in your pack put it back into your podcast player and you can open it up when you need more intellectual sustenance that's that's it very good but uh that was a good review jokes aside

we look look we know we know okay we we know you're right we know you're right we don't want to admit it but we we know we're just not know you're right we don't want to admit it but we know we're just not going to think about it isn't it kind of funny though that like one our response to this review is already way too long like he if he's in the way this this is taking too long to get there but but also he was responding to the long intro for the lab like episode which was a special circumstance okay right that was a kind of special episode that needed that introduction but he would have got to the recent interview with paul bloom where there's almost an entire episode before we get to the end oh my god oh sorry we're sorry about that you would have hated

that but you know chris we have bookmarks we have bookmarks oh yeah we put the bookmarks in specifically i put the bookmarks in okay you put the bookmarks in we you know the team the team put the bookmarks in i wish somebody would use the frigging bookmarks. That's it. I'm going to mention it now at the start. You know that 90 second thing this guy wanted? I'm going to spend those 90 seconds to tell him there's bookmarks. Just push the button on your podcast player or use one of the other freely available ones

if it bothers you that much. Sorry, I'm not defensive. It's perfectly fine. I go to the baller, putting the bookmarks in, and then people say, I want to get to the interview. It's perfectly fine. But I go to the baller, put in the bookmarks in, and then people say, I want to get to the interview. There's a button. Just push your button. No, that was a good review.

He said nice things as well. Let's focus on the positives. It's not him that's the problem. No, no. Or her. We know what we are. We know what this podcast is. know we do we know we know we're self-actualized so that's that now last thing uh patrons patrons i never know which one

to say patrons or patrons we need to shout to my bat We need to thank them. We do. The lottery system continues. And I'm here. I'm here with love in my heart to shout out a random selection of conspiracy hypothesizers. That's why I'm going first, Matt. Yep, yep. This is the part where we all get to sit here and enjoy the long silences while chris

they're all at the doubt if i have my say about it but here we go thank you earl cyrus simon nelson aiden bronze nephri jella marvin k kurt foster ian edmundson Marvin Kaye, Kurt Foster, Ian Edmondson, Alex Knight, Noreen Bowden, Jeremy Stewart, Braunstahl Engelson, Bruce McClure, Phil Richardson, and Sridhar Bhagavatara. Thank you very much. One and all. Thank you. One and all. I feel like there was a conference that none of us were invited to

that came to some very strong conclusions. And they've all circulated this list of correct answers. I wasn't at this conference. This kind of shit makes me think, man. It's almost like someone is being paid. Like when you hear these george soros stories well he's trying to destroy the country from within we are not going to advance conspiracy theories we will advance conspiracy hypotheses with george or shit there was no

conference eric there was no conference it's's just, that's just your paranoia, your feeling that you're not being recognized. Oh, well, well, who knows, Matt? Who knows? He knows. Now, revolutionary thinkers, geniuses, whatever they are, we have those, Matt. And this week we have watch this

Chris Coker, Alex Healy Stacey Harrison Mofuna Basa Ikpe, Daryl Jerry Gutt, Sean Bree Corral, Quick Formity, Premium Select, Anders Hesico

Catherine, Ethan Milne, Jeremy and Patricia Sessy and scott rehorn so those yeah yep and who are they what what grade just want to temper my enthusiasm second tier okay they get access to the decoding academia series so you go. We need to make another one of those shortly. That's correct. We'll do it by showing. Don't worry. Revolutionary geniuses, one and all.

I'm usually doing, I don't know, 70 or 90 distinct paradigms simultaneously all the time. And the idea is not to try to collapse them down to a single master paradigm. I'm someone who's a true polymath. I'm all over the place. But my main claim to fame,

if you'd like, in academia is that I founded the field of evolutionary consumption. Now, that's just a guess. And it could easily be wrong. But it also could not be wrong. The fact that it's even plausible is stunning. The last one with Brett there. I know, it never feels, never feels. The last one with Brett there always gets me. No, it never feels.

It never feels. But, yeah, you know, you don't want to collapse your paradigms down just to one paradigm. That's a rookie error. You want to keep those plates spinning in the air, that's for sure. This is right. This is right. So now, Matt, the Galaxy Green Gurus, the full citizens in the DTG

dystopian future. They include Joel Dienel, Tim Brosseter, Joachim Amundsen, Chris, Max Plan, yep, already Max again, Patrick Collins,

and Benjamin Ashcraft, oh, and Jack Olsey. Jack Olsey, Olsey, Patrick Collins, and Benjamin Ashcraft. Oh, Benji. Oh, and Jack Olsey. Jack Olsey. Olsey, Olsey, Olsey. Oh, oh, oh. And Christian.

Very good. The patricians in the Guru's Pod community. I can't abide to be, what, who would be the middle layer? Equestrians. I don't want to call the lower tier plebeians but that's the only roman the salt of the earth that's the salt of the earth good earthy honest people yep i'm also going to add in brendan smith and alan malcolm mcpherson because i can matt i can do that just i'm adding them in they got in under the wire and now they get this you're sitting on one of the great scientific stories that i've ever heard and you're so polite and hey wait a minute am i an expert i kind of am

yeah i don't trust people at all how is how is scott doing since his like little cancellation cancellation meltdown moment i did see he was up to something but i can't remember what it was now you know he's i'm sure he's doing fine he's still up being a scott adams like yeah he's he's not doing anything good, Matt. He's up to nonsense, that Scott Adams. That sounds right. So do you have a message for the universe? Do you want to tell our listeners some parting words of wisdom that will allow them to self-actualize, find their path in the universe?

Yeah, I do have a message. This is something I thought of like at 3 o'clock in the morning at a party with friends. I was dressed in a sheet, wearing it like a toga, and I told them all that plastic flowers are almost as good as real flowers. You know, not as good, you have to understand, but, you know, okay. Pretty true, pretty accurate and uh i'll tell them

keep an eye out for that widely distributed idea suppression complex and you know if you see it passing the gated institutional narrative just just keep an eye on that that's all it'll make your life a bit easier if you keep your eye on those things. Evergreen, Chris. Evergreen. Good advice. Good advice. Thank you, Eric.

And thank you, Oprah, for making me a better person and feel a little bit happier about the masters of the universe, our CEO betters, actually having good intentions in their heart there well she's just made me think whether really like is this is this where my life has led is this where the universe needs me sitting here talking to you on decoding the gurus like maybe maybe there's another path for me maybe it's time for me bigger things bigger be bigger things. Bigger things. Certainly it's for me, Matt. This is just a stepping stone. Good. We'll have to coordinate our leaping so one of us doesn't feel left behind.

Yeah. Like leaping frogs. They don't know the metaphor. Anyway, yeah. So I'll see you next time. So will. See you next time. Yeah. Bye.

Bye. next time so we'll see you next time yeah bye bye Thank you.