Decoding the Gurus - Supplementary Material 29: Sensemaking Evolved Relationship Constellations, Woke Lucifer, and Cancerous Outrage

Episode Date: May 24, 2025

We enter the ontological in-between to try and spin up our paradigms to understand the next stage in relationship technology, the horrific damage of modern medicine, how Lucifer connects with wokeness, and the joys of bonding over outgroup hate. This one is a doozy...Supplementary Material 2800:00 Introduction - On Dogs and Dough04:37 Next Required Reading: The Buddhism Book!07:50 Jordan Peterson, James Lindsay & Woke Lucifer15:06 Aubrey Marcus' Sensual Sensemaking34:10 Jordan Hall's Sensemaking Origin Story39:09 Bret and Heather discuss cancer cures44:10 The Miracle Cure of Ivermectin46:07 Bret denounces ALL of modern medicine49:26 Community Notes has Fallen to Goliath!50:11 Theo Von, GSP, and the conspiratorial hell world58:04 Dan Bongino gets what he deserves01:05:57 Scott Adams has prostate cancer01:07:20 Joe Biden's Cancer and Taylor Lorenz's Edgy Responses01:09:13 Does Joe Biden hate affordable health care?01:13:31 Hasan joins the fray01:19:36 Genetically Modified Skeptic denouncing outrage mongering and radicalisation01:22:38 The totally hinged Zei Squirrel01:24:25 Owen Jones vs Zei Squirrel01:27:15 Unmasked by the Subreddit01:31:42 The Heterodox Social Science Conference 202501:33:16 Stephen Pinker making bad choices01:37:03 Jordan Peterson gets OUTRAGED over Harvard01:41:13 The Anti-Establishment Two-Step01:47:13 OutroThe full episode is available for Patreon subscribers (1hr 47 mins).Join us at: https://www.patreon.com/DecodingTheGurusSources- Next Required Reading- Buddhism: A Journey through History- Jordan Peterson: When the Right Goes Too Far | Dr. James Lindsay | EP 544- Jordan Peterson: A Dialogue So Dangerous, It Just Might Bring You Wisdom | John Vervaeke and Jordan Hall | EP 532- Bret and Heather discussing cancer treatments- Bret denounces all of modern medicine and conspiracy hypothesises about community notes- Aubrey Marcus: A New Pattern Of Sacred Relationship Emerges | Vylana, Alana Beale, Dr. Marc Gafni- The Hill: Patel, Bongino dismiss Epstein conspiracy theories: ‘He killed himself’- Genetically Modified Skeptic: The Alt-Right Pipeline Almost Got Me. Here’s Why It Failed- Taylor Lorenz's Biden cancer tweet- Vice: Joe Biden: It Would Be an Insult to My Dead Son for Everyone to Have Healthcare-

Hello and welcome to Decoding the Gurus with your intrepid host Christopher Kavanagh, me Northern Irishman over there Matthew Brown, Australian man. Academics we are, gurus we decode. That's what we do. And we are here in a supplementary material. G'day, Matt. How's it going? You doing all right?

G'day, g'day. Yeah, I'm pretty good. I'm pretty good. Intrepid is right, isn't it? We're like Dora the Explorer and her trusty sidekick, exploring through the jungles of the internet, you know, finding treasure. And you found some treasure for us today, didn't you, Chris? Yeah, that's right.

I have succulent cuts of gurudum for this supplementary material. The finest cuts, Matt, the finest cuts. You don't get these kind of rare delicacies on other podcasts. This is the kind of thing that you only get here and served in just just the right portions you know that you can appreciate their excellence. You don't want to be consuming three hours of these cuts. No, they're like they're like sweet meats, they're little deities. You pop a few in your mouth, that's enough. More would make you sick. Now I'm going to get to the mark because you know, we've got a few to get through. But before we do that, it's worth noting

you promised the listeners that you were given up there about two things, dogs and dough, dogs and dough. You got new dogs, you got new dough, experimenting. Oh, yeah, it's supposed to go behind the payroll, but we can give this for free. You know, we can

We could tell people about the dogs. That's all right. Yes, the dogs have arrived. I've forgotten what breed they are God damn it border college They say Joe Biden, you know people were hiding But yeah, yeah, yep, they've arrived. They've arrived and it's exciting. They said they're elderly dogs, about 10 years old. They go slowly, you know, OJ, that's his name. We didn't name him. OJ?

Well, my wife is going to call him Oji-san, which is more appropriate. Okay, Oji-san. I like that. I like that. That's good. Yeah. Yeah. Cause, you know, they're both elderly.

They're both 10 years old. OG-san's a bit wobbly on his back legs. They're a little bit overweight. What's the other one's name? Little bit smelly. Oh, God, I've forgotten her name. Wow. You know, they were able to hide by Instagram. Right. It's on my phone able to hide by the phone. It's on my phone. Anyway, so they're not the sort of exciting, like, we got puppies sort of thing.

The elderly dogs, they looked around, they had a smell, had a drink, had some food, another having a lie down. So they're really at my speed. I'm not going to criticize them for being a bit overweight, a bit smelly. I'm like that too. We're a perfect match for each other. So we'll take them to the beach tomorrow and we'll see how they go. Well, that's 50% update, Matt. But what the people really want to know is like, what about the dough? Have you used the dough? I will take a photo of the dough and the dogs.

I haven't used the dough, Chris, because I could use it. I could use it today, but I'm gonna make Mapo Tofu tonight. And it's better. 72 hours is better. Okay. It's gonna stay in the fridge, slow ferment, long and slow. That's how you do it. Get the flavors. Yeah, okay.

That makes sense to me. I see the way it's gonna go. And that means that, you know, Patreon people, you'll be able to see the photos of the dough. If you join the Patreon, you will see photos of dough. That is what I promised to you. We don't promise you anything else. We will deliver images of dough.

So you just can't get good pizza making content anywhere on the Internet. You can't find it. You have to on the internet. You can't find it. You have to join the Patreon. They won't let you, Matt. They won't let you talk on the podcast. Nobody will let us discuss these kind of things. So it's only available here. And actually, Matt, there is something I need to tell you about.

It's a very important thing. I'm glad to be able to bring this news to you. you about. It's a very important thing. I'm glad to be able to bring this news to you. So, you know, Matt, that we previously invited our Patreon listeners to vote on a book that we would listen to or read, you know, whichever way for the book club. And you canvassed for Cod, which I subsequently read. And I enjoyed every minute of it. All, you know, I put a book on, but we left it to the patrons. What will people select? It's their will that will choose. Not me, Matt.

I'm, I'm just a conduit for their desires. So let me just have a little look here because I did a little bit of a search and I found a book that I thought was a good idea, but I didn look before I came. Ah, yes, it looks like Buddhism, a journey for history by Donald S. Lopez Jr. is the winner. It's got past 35% of the votes there. So Matt, congratulations. I got the load about Kod. You will get the load about the history of Buddhism. Are you excited? This is like some sort of book recommendation war now. I've instigated some kind of mutual punishment first. This isn't what a book club is meant to be about

Well, you know you say that map but I have got another piece of news that I have to tell you I didn't know this let me just be clear I didn't know this and the listeners Went and looked up the book, you know, cuz they're gonna to read it. And they noted it's 21 hours on Audible, 21 hours of Buddhist history. But I think this is the only book that you'll ever have to read about British history as a result. And it's a gap in your knowledge. It is. You know, lots of things about, you know, lots of different topics.

But have you ever studied the history of Buddhism? Have you? No, not really. No, no. So we're going to fill in the blank for you. So you know, I'm looking forward to it. I'm going to, well, I'm going to listen to it. That's the only way I'll be able to consume 21 hours because reading it would take too long.

But yeah, so I look forward to the next book club and congratulations. That's just want to let you know in public because it's yeah, just share it with the listeners, share the joy. Hmm. Twenty one hours of a book that I don't want to read right after you do for this podcast. I think you'll like it. Just to be clear, this isn't a penalty book because this isn't a book like Buddhism facts. This guy is a good writer. And I've really liked all his previous books. So I think it will actually be like an enjoyable book more so than

the minimum was even. That's my prediction. All right. Okay. All right. We'll see. We'll see. Maybe maybe maybe I'll love it. You know, I think you will. I think you will. We'll see. We'll see. Maybe, maybe, maybe I'll love it. I think you will. I think you will. And if you don't, then we're even. But in any case, Matt, I'll now provide you with something, you know, of a delicacy, a sweet treat to rinse out the bitter taste of Buddhism from your mouth. the bitter taste of British from your vibe. So I only have one clip from this interaction. Two of our favorite gurus, Jordan B. Peterson and James Lindsay got together. Wow. You know, there's going to be sparks when they get together.

There is. I could have clipped the whole thing. It's full of insights about the work, right? That's what they were talking about. But I'm not actually going to go through all of the various the work right. That's what they were talking about. But I'm not actually going to go through all of the various things they discussed. We might draw some clips of the leader from their other insights, but there was one that was just so powerful. When it hit me, when I was listening, it nearly knocked me off my seat. And I want to play it for you, because it's kind of a combination of sense-making, political insight, the whole shebang.

So let's see if you can pick up on the detail that, you know, astonished me. A very high level idea. Here we go. It comes along for the ride eventually. Because a lot of the young Germans were actually inspired because they thought it was going to be good for the worker. They were inspired by the socialism part of national socialism and that it was going to be be good for Germany and they loved their country and they wanted to see it great. And so they were swept up, the Hitler Youth were swept up to get into this. But it's the same program. There's a game. We were used to be the masters of the game, but now we've been dispossessed from the game. They threw us from top to bottom. That was an intolerable experience. By the way, this is all

the story of Lucifer. Yes. We're gonna cast to the bottom. And so what we're gonna do now is we're gonna grab our rightful inheritance, and we're gonna build the structure that returns us to it. P.S. the organizational structure is the furor princeps, so I'm at the top. Okay, so I want to talk about this Lucifer idea. So Lucifer is the morning star, and he's the angel of the untrammeled

intellect. That's how he's portrayed in Milton, right? And he's allied in some strange way with the serpent in the Garden of Eden. If I might just interject, if he's the morning star, what do you do in the morning after the morning star rises? You wake up Right woke right right right the spirit of enlightenment, right? Okay, so in or dark enlightenment as it were. Yeah, right. Absolutely. Well, that's the question. What's the difference between? genuine What's the difference between what's genuine and what's false, let's say. I think I know what picture interests there, Chris. I mean, there's a lot of good stuff.

The whole thing is pretty good. The whole thing is good. I mean, there's the main star of the discourse there, but the first bit with the Nazis and the young people that were attracted to the socialisms of the name, to those kind of social. No, people at the time very much knew that they were right wing. They were communists. They were having street fights with them, right? The left is a different thing.

Anyway, let's put that aside because it was blown away by the Lucifer reference, the Jordan Peterson. He connects this to Lucifer because the Führer and all of that stuff. And he starts talking about Lucifer is the morning star, and what do you do in the morning? You wake up, woke. My God. So they've decoded it. Nailed it. Nailed it. This, you can see what, what devilry is, is motivating the work people, right? With this, you know, cause it all makes sense. I see the connections now. This is peak sense

making. I, yeah, this, the connections are, I just, just did one thing that leave you a little bit puzzled. So like I Get the wordplay that went on there, right? We we've got We've got Lucifer and we've we've got the Morningstar and you weak and all that but like so Who is responsible for making that connection? Because woke, a term that came out of black activism in the US or whatever. So they used the term because they wanted to signal their commitment to Lucifer. Or was Lucifer behind the scenes suggesting they use woke?

Because eventually it would lead to the social justice movement where Jim Zunzi We'd like meet this Like who's responsible for this Chris? This is the thing when you know the word? The logos is the fundamental underpinning of all reality then what happens is it it manifests itself like this Do you're trying to intellectually puzzle it out? manifests itself like this. You're trying to intellectually puzzle it out. Clearly the logos was at work. But I think maybe that people who would defend that

would say, oh, look, he was just having a bit of fun. Like, oh, look at that. Yeah, notice like, no, from the tone of voice. Oh, I can tell you it's not. It's not, the conversation continues from there, right? There is no indication that that was a joke or meant in jest. And the rest of the conversation is very similar, like line of reasoning for right.

And somebody pointed out, Matt, and I looked into it when I first highlighted this, that Lucifer as a term connected with Satan is actually like a much later development in Christianity as well. So like, and Morningstar is a translation into another language. So it's all, it doesn't even make sense, like, you know, from the historical references, because like in any case, that's sense-making, that's what you do. Actually sense-making is, to find a word for it, that is bottom of the barrel conspiracism. So when you look at the really mad conspiracy communities, flat earthers, people that believe the devil's sign is inside energy drinks and things like that.

That's what they do. You know, they, they look at the, they look at the logo of some, I don't know, and I just sneakers or something. Can they see, they see the devil in it. So that's pretty far gone. That is, it is amazing. These, these two guys are serious. Um, like, Oh dear, their brains are broken. I don't know.

Like I know that Jordan Peterson is mentally ill to some degree. Yeah. Like what's wrong with Lindsay? Apart from being a massive jerk and grifter. There's so many things, well if I remember, take too long to get through it all. But yeah, they're, you know, together, they are a kind of

catalyst for each other, just, you know, idea jacking off into new territories. And yeah, there's there's many other things that I could drag out of this. But, you know, I have all eclipse, Matt, I have all Eclipse, Matt. I have all the things. And actually in the realm of sense making, there was there was more sense making to be had. So there was this conversation again. There's so many things that I could highlight in this.

But do you know who Aubrey Marcus is? Uh, I kind of know. I kind of know like I know the name of my dog. Okay. Okay. You got to remember when I'll serve as the reactive agent to regenerate your memory palace or whatever it is. So Aubrey Marcus is Joe Rogan's old partner at Onnit. Currently has a bunch of other companies.

He's a kind of optimizer slash spiritual woe slash bro science type guy. And him and Joe Rogan cashed out of Onnit and sold it to Unilever for hundreds of millions of undisclosed dollars. So he's a supplement peddling bro, but he's more towards the New Age side than is typical for Jorgen. He has a podcast, It's Insufferable, but he did one recently where he wanted to introduce his kind of polyamorous new quasi extended monogamy relationship to his listeners. He has a wife and he has an additional third

person that he was introducing to the relationship and it's a spiritual blessing and they're evolving monogamy. This is what they're doing. So it's kind of you might wonder why would you be making a podcast about this? You know, each to their own, like do whatever you want to do. But they can't do that. So they need to, you know, go through the spiritual transcendence and whatnot involved to their listeners. It's very uncomfortable in general, the whole thing, because there are parts

where his current wife cries and she's saying things about how on board she is with all of this, but that's not exactly the vibe that you get as you listen to it. It's just like, what happened? What happened there in the dark. And I take a deep breath, and I tell her what happened. And that was just such a deeply, you know, painful moment for you to receive that. It's felt like at first when you shared that with me, I felt pretty calm and collected and was able to like hold it from a place.

But the more that our conversation continued, it was bringing up that piece of me that feels like I always get hit out of left field as soon as I feel safe. There's something else. And so it was a lot of that woundedness around, like, this always fucking happens and like, I've been so open in the blessing and trusting and then like, the thing that I literally was the most afraid of. And this is like, you know, I had a little bit of hesitancy about this podcast just because it's exposing the most vulnerable part of my journey. And we had a really difficult day, as you can imagine. And you know, once we kind of both of us are very dramatic, so we

went like full out. Right. But I mentioned all this because alongside, so you have the primary partner, you have the new partner that's going to be entering the relationship already has. And then you have the kind of spiritual counselor doctor man who's also there to talk about this evolution of relationships and how authentic it is. Right. And there's a lot of sense-making going on here, Matt. There's a lot of sense-making. The good thing is that the YouTube comments kind of reflected that even their cultivated audience of people that are kind of into this stuff find this a little bit much, a little bit, you know, dressing up your particular sexual preferences and whatnot in, you know, the highest spiritual insight language. And they did notice the dynamics that one partner seemed like

slightly less into it than the other. But I'm going to play you two clips from it. So the first one, this is the doctor, the doctor man. Okay. And he's, I think he kind of gets into sense making apart relationships. So listen to this. You have a place where 65 to 70 percent of the population of the classical, let's say, Western world for now, but it's true also in the Eastern blocks, actually live in shame.

An essential fundamental shame, which means that we have to actually begin to deepen because a planet drenched in shame, which is the experience not that I did something wrong, but I am wrong, not that I made a mistake, I am a mistake, is a devastating planet. That's a planet which becomes rife with war starvation abuse So that's part one. That's just kind of frame one. Just have that frame Let's just throw one more frame and then open it up and we'll we've as we go But one more kind of critical frame, which is crazy important

Reality is as we've we've we've talked about so much reality is Evolution that's just true realities evolution. That's just true. Reality is evolution means it's a story. It's an evolving story and it's a love story. All right, reality is not really a fact, it's a story and it's a love story. Two is reality is relationships. That's just true.

Atoms are relationships. Molecules are relationships between parts. So reality is evolution, reality is relationships, and reality is the evolution of relationships. Reality is, at its core structure, the evolution of relationships. And what moves reality forward from the molecular to the world of animals of life,

to the world of humans, is crisis. Every crisis is always a crisis of relationship. It's never not. So every crisis is a crisis of intimacy. You solve a crisis of intimacy by actually reaching for a next and new structure of intimacy. Reality is the progressive deepening of intimacy. So when we run into a crisis of relationship,

okay, okay, so monogamy, right? Classically, it's not exactly working. So what do we do? Wow, that's impressive. That's a that's a complicated way to say that you want to fuck somebody else, isn't it? Well, in this case, it's not even him that wants to do that. Right? He's the like, spiritual advisor. I didn't realize who I was listening to. Right. So that's the rabbi. I thought that was the guy. Yeah, he's just signing off. He's on board 100%. This is well,

anyway, same thing applies. This is an incredibly, you know, it's such, it's such an abstract, all encompassing, like he's he developed a whole new theory of physics to justify this guy. Like, he developed a whole new theory of physics to justify this guy's... Yeah, but it's got that sense-making bit to it, you know, where like, reality is relationships. That's just true. Atoms are relationships. Molecules are relationships, right? Like, it's that word association thing where they're like, so reality is evolution and reality is relationships and relationships need to evolve. Everything is crisis, Matt. You know, how do things resolve?

They go through crisis and then they evolve into a new... A more complicated relationship. That's how things work themselves out. To get a little bit technical, did you split the, like, we were talking about ontological confusions a little while ago, and, you know, people making those, seeing parallels, making mistakes, category mistakes between things like animate and inanimate things. And this kind of word play around the word relationship. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean? Where a relationship between, say, chemicals bonding,

you know, hydrogen and oxygen molecules bonding together. That's basically the same, isn't it? As a guy, a woman and another woman. They're all relationships. Whichever you're talking about, it's got the word relationship. It's got the word relationship in it. So it's the same thing. It's like, you know, it's a variation on the what do you do in the morning?

You woke up right in the morning and woke is a term for social justice. It's the same language play. I think so much of what of what our gurus do is it's just based on this this wordplay, right? And, and just leveraging confusions, essentially, between, you know, the meanings of words, taking them literally, and then see making connections that just are not there. Um, yeah. Some, I mean, that's the one thing. That's the one thing I'd like to educate everybody not to do. It's, uh, it's just a, it creates this cornucopia of nonsense, but of course, in this case, like if you're motivated, right?

Like you need the motivation, right? Yeah. Jordan, Jordan Peterson and James Lindsay have got the motivation. They, they just want to, they want to find, they want to find the 117th different way to call work people. Whatever. Yeah. The devil demonic, right?

That's, that's their motivation. They'll find a way to do it. They play around with words enough. This guy here is looking for some cosmological, cosmic, you know, all encompassing philosophical justification for the thing. Someone else's polyamorous. Someone else's polyamorous. Yeah.

So yeah, Matt, just to, so it wouldn't be fair, you know, to not play a clip of all it pre Marcus, just so you can hear his kind of delivery and thing, but this is, this is how he introduces, you know, what the topic on the podcast is going to be that day. Well, buckle your seat belts, everyone, because this is going to be a podcast that is going to be shocking for some of y'all. It's going to be stimulating for many of y'all. It's going to raise a lot of questions. And the reason is, is that I am here

with my beloved wife, Vilana, which many of you who follow me on social media or have listened to our podcasts have met and love. And we're also here with beloved Alana, who is a part of our relationship constellation and shares a deep love with both myself and Vailana in their own unique qualities. And we're also here with my beloved and esteemed teacher, Rebbe Dr. Mark Gaffney, who's helped us navigate what this all means? How we're going to not only live in this moment to moment, but to create something that is pointing towards one possibility in the future of relationships. Relationships that as we know, if you look at the statistics, there's staggering, staggering

percentages of infidelity. There's staggering and disappointing numbers that come from statistics and studies about the decline of eros inside relationship containers. And so people are looking for different options. What are they? Do they work? Is it possible? And for some people, the traditional models, monogamy as it has been for thousands of years, just works perfectly. And so we're not here to be advocates of our way, but we're here to just humbly tell the story of our way.

And the reality is that we didn't plan to be here. This was not like we set out with this intention. We arrived at this intention through a variety of choices and mystical interventions and just the acceptance of what is, and what is has really guided us to where we are now. And where we are now is a story that we have not yet told. And so here we are to tell the story and also tell the story in the context of a world, a planet.

Right. Right, right, right. So, so, uh, Aubrey Marcus there, he's, he's got this podcast and he's got this, of course he sells supplements. They all sell supplements. Lots and lots and lots of supplements. Total human optimization. He founded with Joe Rogan, gets on his podcasts, kind of Nanosphere, PaleoCon types like Wim Hoff, Jordan Peterson, Andrew Huberman.

And- I'll be honest, also looks in this fierce, like if you asked AI to generate a monosphere bro. It's just got a very generic, like monosphere kind of vibe of item. So if you want the picture, just imagine the most stereotypical Manosphere bro podcast you can imagine.

That's all very Marcus. Yeah. Now, if it is in fact the case that, yeah, no, his partner's not super keen on this. And really this is just a way for him to have a second girlfriend because two is better, right? Two is better.

Yeah, I think you should leave. I think you should leave, just to be clear. Now if that's the case, then well, that's unpleasant. But what's also unpleasant is just how pretentious and self-indulgent this entire exercise is, Chris. I think that offends me more. I know. I know. It's nothing to do with people who want to engage in non-traditional relationship structures. You'd be polyamorous as much as you want. And divorces are real. All the things that he says there are true. People can be in traditional relationships, unhappy.

That's fine. But if you listen to the rest of this episode, that's also a strategic disclaimer because he goes on to essentially suggest that this is a higher evolved form of relationship that has been orientated by the cosmos and secret signs and whatnot. And we've talked about this a little bit, but I was faced with this. Like I had a vision, like, well, if I got rid of everybody else, then potentially I could accelerate the possibility of being with Vailana, because I felt this really strong

urge and attraction and had mystical signs that came in actually. We had an intimate encounter and a white star of light came in my third eye and it was open-eyed, closed-eyed vision. I wasn't on any medicine and it was like, God put an asterisk in this moment and I was like, fuck. It's leading to untold flourishing that nobody could have fathomed. So yeah, it's extremely indulgent and just all those lines, the relationship constellation, the relationship container, the mystical interventions that have set them on their path and whatnot. It isn't just that Aubrey's horniness has led them on this journey of discovery, right? It can't have been that. Aubrey, you've to it, and Vi, you've alluded to it in many conversations,

and Alana, you alluded to it, which was listening into the signs. And it's very easy to kind of dismiss that as some, oh, is that a new age thing? Well, that's not a new age thing, right? And I think anyone who knows me well knows that in terms of intellectual integrity, new age is a little bit anathema to me.

But there's actually this deep sense of the intimate universe. And the intimate universe whispers, the mystics, the interior scientists call it the erotic mystics, remise de orite, the glimmerings of she, the glimmerings of light. And of course you can over listen and think that that tower deck told you to sell your house, probably not a good idea. But there's a discernment. There's a discernment. We can discern, we can listen deeply.

And we're all in this intimate mesh work where there's direct personal address. We're all personally addressed. And cultivating the capacity to listen to those unique intimate whispers is a very big deal. And all three of you, and I wanna just say this because it's a really big deal, all three of you have said thousands of no's. And that's really important for people to understand. In other words, I think two things are important.

One, you said thousands of no's. So you guys are very big on no. You say very few yeses. So that's a big deal. There's a thousand, 10,000 no's that allow for any yes. And two is, and this is a strange thing to say, but let's say a strange thing, the three of you would be at this table if you were poor. And that's a really important thing to say.

This is not, oh, wow, we've got some dispensable time, a little extra income. You know, we're kind of in Miami. No, no. In other words, and we've been through these depths. If you guys were like, for whatever reason, you would still be in this constellation. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a brave new world, isn't it? Well, the most important thing is not to be ashamed of anything. Shame is the worst thing, you know, the absolute worst thing.

It just destroys the soul. It leads to war and hunger, as we heard before. So just do what you want. Do what you want. That's 2025. Let's do a podcast about it. Yeah, yeah. Now, Matt, also a final entry into the sense making canon

for this little collection of sense making delicacies that I've accumulated. We have Jordan B. Peterson again, but speaking to arch sense maker, Jordan Hall, a man who's in so many paradigms that it's hard to keep track. Okay. All right. This is going to be different from with James Lindsay, although James Lindsay is doing a pretty good impression of it. They're all different flavors of the same underlying formula. But Jordan Hall is going to talk about how he got into sense-making.

We all know him now as one of the most proficient sense-makers in the ecosystem. But when did he start sense-making? Is a good question. Let's find out. Somewhere around the probably late elementary school, I began to notice that the world that we live in, or at least the world that I have been thrown into, was suffering significantly from making any sense whatsoever. It was haphazardly thrown together in a fashion that tended to produce more negative than positive.

Think about just what happens when you go to school. How old were you when that started to become a focus of attention, do you think? About fourth grade. Oh yeah, okay. And then similarly the same noticing, for example, like, oh wait, I'm sitting in front of a television in the context of my home, which is lying to me continuously with a highly effective capacity to manipulate. And yet that seems to be something that the people who are around me

seem to be perfectly okay with. Hmm, that's interesting. So a sense of there's something way off, it's way off, and curiosity about, okay, well, what would Wright look like and how might we accomplish that? So you can see how those two things link together. So you said TV and school.

Yeah. Were there other experiences that you remember at a young age that, like, I'm kind of curious about what triggered this? Yeah, it would be nice. That's pretty good. If you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to subscribe at patreon.com slash

Decoding the Gurus. Once you do, you'll get access to full length episodes of the Decoding the Gurus. Once you do, you'll get access to full-length episodes of the Decoding the Gurus podcast, including bonus shows, gurometer episodes, and Decoding academia. The Decoding the Gurus podcast is ad-free and relies entirely on listener support. Subscribing will save the rainforest, bring about global peace, and save Western civilization. And if you cannot afford $2, you can request a free membership, and we will honor zero of those requests. So subscribe now at patreon.com slash Decoding the Gurus.