Decoding the Gurus - Supplementary Material 49: Calibrated Podcast Expectations, The Great Consciousness Debate of 2026, and Russell Brand is a Bad Guy

Episode Date: May 12, 2026

Matthew Browne, a high-profile advocate for pan-psychism, compels his reluctant co-host to endure a public struggle session on the topic of consciousness, hopefully for the last time.Supplementary Material 4900:00 Introduction02:47 Returning to the Emerald Isle03:44 Irish History Segment: The Titanic & Potato Famines10:45 McGilchrist Reflections12:51 Knowledge Fight has ended26:23 Podcasting Motivations34:37 Calibrated Expectations41:03 The Problem with the Patreon Members42:51 Shermer's Activist Skeptic Research47:24 Research on Support for Political Violence in the US54:35 Rob Henderson and Decorative Scholarship58:11 Ryan Holiday Stoically Flames MAGA01:04:41 Zuby and Motivated Reasoning01:07:15 Monocausal Explanations for Declining Birth Rates01:08:51 More credulity from Shermer01:10:25 Bryan Johnson and Testicular Optimisation01:14:41 Testicle Fixation Gurus01:15:24 Professor Jiang thinks Trump is Immortal01:19:57 When Dawkins Met Claude01:30:00 The Great Consciousness Debate of 202601:42:47 When Cladius met Claudia01:52:39 Chris's Concession01:54:23 Animal Minds and AI Consciousness01:56:31 Russell Brand vs Piers Morgan02:10:13 Thirsty Christian dunks on Dawkins02:13:18 Brand's Family's Response02:22:39 Hasan Piker is the one who knocks!02:27:44 Outro02:28:36 A final message of hope!LinksKnowledge Fight's Last Episode – The End of the RoadJordan's video on the OnionDan's blog on his next plansRob Henderson’s thread promoting the Shermer Skeptic StudyPolarization Research Lab- Low levels of support for partisan violencePolarization Research Lab - Did the 2024 Election Change American Attitudes About Democracy?Ryan Holiday’s response to the Shellenberger videoRyan Holiday responding to article that he is ‘fuming’ at IvankaZuby’s insights on Birth Rate DeclineVice article on the history of testicle transplants"Massive GRIFTER!" Piers Morgan Grills Russell Brand On Allegations, Prison, 'Truth' & ReligionUnHerd: When Claudia met Claudius- So are they really conscious?UnHerd: When Dawkins met Claude Could this AI be conscious?‘Professor’ Jiang on Trump’s ImmortalityMehdi Hasan dunking on Dawkins

Hello and welcome to Decoding the Guru's supplementary material with your favorite two cranky, middle-aged academic, international hosts, Matthew Brown, psychologist, Christopher Kavanaugh slash anthropologist, cognitive anthropologist, if you like. We're here and we're ready to talk about gurus and related topics in a supplementary material edition where we can let our hair down and be yourself smart we're not constrained to some rigid format of clips and responses to clips no we're free let our freak flag fly um welcome that's right we can have something approaching

one of the personal conversations we have which is mainly commenting on dumb shit we've seen on the internet that's just how we roll that is how we roll yeah um and i've got plenty of dumb shit as i've seen recently but uh have you been matt have you been uh be good uh been we had a lot of weekend here. And you're in Golden Week, are you? Golden Week? Yeah. Why am I in a suit? Well, not a suit. That's overstated it. Why am I in a shirt? Why are you at the office? What are the point? In a shirt at the office, because the universities in Japan, their cursed black soul means that they don't necessarily follow public holidays. So university decided that this is a public holiday today, but not for me. I had a class and everything. So I think that's the legal.

Yeah. I feel like the guy in that I think you should leave skit. I'm not sure you're alive there. But canceling lunch. Yeah. But seriously, why are they scheduling classes on Golden Week? I mean, University students, come on, aren't they? They deserve Golden Week, too. I know. I know. So you can tell me about It's actually, it's immersed because on the little calendar, the pocket calendar, it classifies it as a special day where it's like, this is a public holiday, but it's got classes. Like, why? Why did you decide that?

I guess it's because the summer, I mean, come on, academics. We get a little bit of a holiday in the summer, don't we really? So, yeah, yeah, yeah, all year round, some would say. Some, yeah, those right-wing crazies, Matt. You know as well, am I announcing this here? I'm not really announcing it. It's not necessarily related to the podcast. Don't worry, Matt.

You'll still be able to record episodes. But I'm going back to the Emerald Isle in the summer. I'm going to go back for around two weeks to visit my homestead, look over the valleys and the mini mountains, and remind myself of my roots. You know, touch grass, as the kids like to say. actually I'll literally be touching Irish grass in the summer. Green, green grass. Any great tourist attractions in Northern Ireland?

Belfast, yeah. The Jans Crossway. Get the Jans Crossway. You've heard about that, right? Bushmills Distillery. Bushmills Distillery. I know Bushmills as well. It's fine.

Yeah, we're a good friend, a good friend of Bushmills. And then, in, Belfasters is the Titanic quarter. You can go see where that fine ship that had no flaws. It was just a lucky map. It wasn't the fault of the engineering. It wasn't the I. You can't play the Irish for that.

It was the Izbo and the captain. We built it perfectly. Have you? I could just see the Irish guy. It was fine what it left you. Yeah. Yeah, but it was fine. It was fine.

The Titanic was a freak thing, right? The iceberg ripped a gash through all of the different compartments, right? I know my Titanic law. So it was well designed and well built. There was no fault. There's no defect. Thank you. That's what we keep down.

Yeah, the museum is actually really good. I went there the last time I was back and it's like a high quality museum because it was built recently. So, you know, the displays are very nice. But I don't need to go back. I'm not going back. I think what's is enough to go there. So, yeah, but I don't need to do all the tour stuff, Matt.

Me? I'm, you know, I'm Belfast Morning Bread. I've seen all the bomb sites and all the bullet holes. And the famously most bombed hotel in Europe, the Europa. I don't need to do that. But I'm going to take my children on a black taxi tour

or at least the older one to meet him, learn about the suffering of his genetic heritage. I see. Taxi Black Alband type tour. Well, no, it's actually, it's fun. It's fun. It's, it's the, the taxis in Northern Ireland due to the troubles.

The buses stopped running for a while because it was too dangerous. Like my uncle, who was a bus driver, got petrol bomb, for example, Matt. He didn't die because the bomb didn't go off, but he covered in petrol and it damaged his lungs and eyes. So he had to quit working and stuff. Anyway, lovely times in the 1970s. But so

because of that, black taxis, you know, like in the British movies, they drive around in their little black cabs. In Belfast, people bought black taxis, then used them as buses. So they went on like a set route and you could weave them down

and you get on. And then other people are in the taxi. and it goes along a little route. So now you can go on tours by the drivers of those taxis and they take you round the FEMA sites to the troubles and like kind of give a little, you know, like part of history of stuff. So yeah, it's supposed to be fun. Okay, good, good.

Well, that sounds fine. That sounds fine. I do want to go to Ireland. I mean, mainly the southern part, but I guess I could pop into the north part as well. Yeah. Well, we'd all be happy to see you. I just hope and our fingers crossed, Brian.

Come see you here. Cold talk day if you may start. I mean, if you go all the way down, and you should at least pop in the Belfast. It's got really nice bars. If I go to Ireland, I just want you to know that I will be telling everyone about my Irish roots.

Oh, I thought you were going to say you're an Irish co-host. And I was like, yeah, I have a big deal over there? I'm sorry. I know he's bloody Irish people here in Australia. And you guys are everywhere. It's nothing to brag about. All right. I know that.

Actually, today, you know, I know this is Irish heritage map. But it's important to listeners understand, okay? I was teaching a course of a graphical representation or class about this. What kind of graphs do you use with what kind of data types? You know that. It's actually much more interesting than that sounds. I think so. I think so.

We are in a minority on this issue. I don't know. I get very interesting graphs when I'm showing that. But I showed a graph of population in Europe. This is worth for kind of time series. Longer, not longitude of that, but anyway, you know what I mean. But one of them is the total population of Europe over the past couple of centuries. And the other one is a population in Ireland. And it shows going up, up, up,

and then a crash. And then it goes and levels out. And in Japan, the students were like, what the hell happened there? Where did Ireland? Like, what happened? And you're like, gather around and I'll tell you. I was like, oh, good that you asked. It's good that you asked. But I did experience it. I was like, you know the way all the Americans say they're Irish? Australians too That's right I think island is just a It's just a soggy island

It's a state of mind Yeah exactly exactly And that island's loss is our game The new world Chris Australia Australia you know excluding The white part I don't know how to describe it

The white population I don't think your own whole So the original Anglo Irish colours It's like 50% Irish. It's like 40%, maybe 40%, maybe 40, 60. So, you know, that's where we have so many Catholic churches around the place. There was a note of defensiveness in my description where they were like, what happened?

And they said, was it the troubles? There was like, no, no, no. There wasn't that many of millions wiped out by the British. But though I said, no, it was a crop failure. It was a potato like exacerbated by, oh, or potentially exacerbated by. you know, colonial powers and they're meddling. Chris, just call it by its name, genocide. Genocide.

Well, no, but I was, but the thing is, I did feel like a little bit of humor and I was like, it's because there was a crop failure of the potato. And I could see in their eyes, we're like, can they not have had something? Like, you know, they've just had the fish or whatever. I saw that look in their eyes. Or maybe it was my defensive reaction of like,

so a single crop field and it wiped out a, part of the population. Like, it was a very important. It's a very important crop, okay? Come on. If there was a rice failure in China or Japan, they know. How would they do? Well, they probably just eat something else.

They would eat more fish. That's true. They would think of that because they're innovators, Chris. No. Well, look, didn't Mao kill tens of millions for? Yes. That definitely did. Definitely did.

Yeah. So there we go. What is this? The rest is history? It could be. It could be. It could be whatever we were. wanted to be Chris. We're still young.

No, well, look, we just released the Gilchrist. Gilchrist, Gilchrist. People have already criticized. Bill Christ, you got it right. Gilchrist, yes. Gilchrist. Gilchrist. Part two. Yes, we did. Part two, so he's done. He's in the review mirror.

Thank God. Well, we haven't put him into the grometer yet. I forgot about that. But we will do that. Actually, he's going to rate pretty high, I think, in the grometer. Is he? I think he's like one of the specialist types that will start high because like he's not high in conspiracy mongering is he no you probably actually you may be right i spoke to seen well i just

think he's a guru that's all he is a guru he's absolutely a guru yeah i think he's a perfect fit to the concept and if he doesn't fit the garometer that's the garameter's problem i think yeah that's right he's a subtype the the sense makers like i think we're with the sense makers when we ever we cover them when we don't cover them for a while i'm like oh wouldn't have been nice to just hear them waffle on about some metaphor, and the other one say, that makes me think of this metaphor. And it'll be, it'll be fun to hear them talk nonsense. Then you listen to them. And by the end of the third hour, you're like, I never want to hear another fucking metaphor. Like, they just take metaphors so seriously. And it's not even, it's not even taking the metaphors

seriously. It's what you pointed out, which is that they make a nice metaphor. And then they assume that that means they've demonstrated all of their claims are correct. And you're like, no, that's not what metaphors do. I know. Actually, even though we've seen so much of it, it wasn't until the Gilchrist episode, that penny kind of dropped for me, which is actually, he actually thinks this is not just a way to explain what he means and help people visualize and get the concept. He thinks the metaphor is kind of proof. It's an argumentative. proof for what he's claiming. The metaphor feels compelling. Therefore, what is saying has to be true. So it really does speak to how they think. Yeah. Well, oh, can I also mention Matt just early on I'll

mention because I don't think it's notable. It's in our genre. Knowledge fight declared their packing up shop. The final episode released 30 minutes long. And they're ending knowledge fight. And it's kind of interesting. I would say in my case, I've been a long-term listener. And I did think that they had this issue that basically they used to document, you know, Alex Jones and the kind of goings on in the conspiracy community, the fringes. And you would see what they were talking about show up six months later or whatever in Steve Bannon and Trump. But now there's basically no division between that conspiratorial wing and the mainstream Republican MAGA movement.

So you can see the kind of shit that they're talking about just all over the place. So that was one thing that I thought is like, you know, it wasn't really detailing any more in niche. It's kind of talking about just what is visible on the mainstream Republican platform. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I can see that. I can see that. Like, I didn't ever really listen to them that regularly. I only listened to a couple of episodes on your recommendation. They were fine. I enjoyed them. But how did they talk about Alex Jones over hundreds of episodes? Like, how many new things was there to cover? Oh, there's quite a lot because, like, you know, it's like covering

conspiracy theorists in general, right? They have these massive lore and in Alex Jones's case, not only does he have all of the conspiratorial lore, but he actually ran the network for conspiracy theorists. Like he was promoting other figures and, you know, there's all the Sandy Hook stuff and all that. But I mean, he also had people whose careers started there and that were like feeding in the other network. So there was a fair amount to cover from what he was doing. And they did various investigations. Like they went back and covered his coverage of 9-11 when it happened, right? And all of his narratives around there, like doing historical treatments and stuff. So I do think there was like, you know, enough material. It was, I would have described it,

at least on Dan side, you know, the host that we interviewed as a bit of a ethnic graphic adventure. You know, they went and they immersed themselves in that topic and got to know it probably better than anyone else that's covered it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I can see that

now. Yeah, I can see it would be like I kind of forgotten, but yeah, Alex Jones is not just him and he's ranting in his show, but there's like a hub for a whole ecosystem. Yeah. Yeah. And

And the other thing to note is that I respect the way that they ended it because, you know, the onion we talked about it, Matt, they bought InfoWorse or they leased it or something. You know, there's all legal wranglings going over the IP. But basically the idea is the onion will take control of that name and brand. And they're going to use it to like put out satirical content, which is kind of counter to Alex Jones agenda. Right. And they're going to feed some of the money back to the Sandy Hook families because otherwise,

like Alex Jones had these schemes, you know, to buy back the company via shell companies and all this like goings on, right? So this was one of the better solutions out of the available options, right, and give some money for the families because InfoWars owes all its money, you know, now to the Sandy Hook families, basically. And Alex Jones has declared bankruptcy and a lot. But as we talked about, Dan had reservations. about how possible it is to effectively parody Alex Jones and that there might be issues around like not doing it well. But Jordan, the other co-host, went on Twitch and did a live stream that was really bombastic and divided the community quite strongly.

He basically accused the onion of like profiting of the Sandy Hook families. How dare all of you! Jesus! fucking Christ. Ugh. Fucking hell. How much money do the family members get? Is it an ongoing website?

So if they get a chunk of just the merch sales, isn't it your responsibility to keep the site going, even if it's not profitable, even if they're not making merch sales, because you're selling it right now. You're selling the website right now as being for the fucking families. That's what Ben Collins has done on multiple fucking

interviews on multiple fucking interviews he has sold it as this is being for the fucking families they will see nothing out of this bullshit fuck you you're being told this this is what you are being sold be clear on that not the truth about what they are doing what they are doing is about what's happening right now it's about people subscribing to the onion right now the last time they did this. It was about people subscribing to the onion. It's about people subscribing to the fucking onion right now. Or people buying Onion merch right now.

Not giving them enough and made reference to them having articles about, you know, the kind of poke fun at the reaction in the wake of school shootings or whatever in America where, you know, nothing changes,

right? And the Onion has this article that always reposts, which is thoughts and prayers as the only nation where this happens declares it's impossible to stop this from happening, right? Like, and he, he framed that as them like profiting of the death of, you know, like people in school shootings. It's for the memes, man. And it's for subscriptions to the onion. It's for the memes.

And it's for subscriptions to the onion. And let me tell you something. This is how, yeah, let me sum it up a lot better for you. Let me sum it up a lot better and a lot clearer. For everyone involved. All right? Why? Did the onion have this idea?

Is it because it's the funniest thing? No. No, it's not because it's the funniest thing. It's because every time there's a school shooting or something school shooting related, people post an advertisement for the onion. So it was like kind of morally art. rant about them, not doing things right,

and they were going to help Alex Jones and all this kind of stuff. And it was quite like a strong, hyperbolic thing at times. And then people were wondering, what are they going to do when they come back, right? Because they took a little bit of a gap.

Are they going to cover Alex Jones at his next place? What are they going to do about the onion parody and stuff? But the return episode and the final episode was basically them saying, they have a difference of opinion around this, and some other longer term differences, difference in values,

like kind of irreconcilable differences. We're talking about a video that not everybody who listens to our show saw, sure, but probably a lot of people did where you had some takes on the onion. I had some harsh things to say. Still do. And I do think that this, that video had a lot of,

there's a lot of response to it. A lot of people had a lot of feelings about it. I had a lot of feelings about it as well. but I did believe that it was part of something that we could work through and we could come to the other side of. Yeah. But the point that I want to make is that for me, that catalyst, people may believe that to be like a straw that broke the camels back. And that's not entirely true. No, no, absolutely not.

The video itself, I don't agree with almost anything you said. Sure. Except for the underlying points you were making. Sure. I agree with a number of those in terms of like righteous passion about things not being fair. Sure. But I don't agree with a lot of things that you say. And we deal with that as we have through the course of the show.

We have dealt with that. And through discussions that we've had after this and in response to this, it it what's really true is it's more clear that we're not there anymore yeah that it's we're not at a point where you and I can really work through some of our greater differences yeah and the way that is what made the show interesting and fun and to pretend that we can is gonna cause trouble and I think that it hurts people and for that reason you know this being the kind of catalyst this rant and the onion and that they're going to go their separate ways and leave, you know, the nine years of work to speak for itself. And it wasn't cantankerous or anything.

They were both there. They were both saying, you know, like, I really respect, you know, everything that we've done and all this kind of thing. I mean, I guess I have my bright spot. My bright spot is I love you very much and I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful. Sure. Yep. That's my bright spot.

Love you too. And I'm grateful as well. Yep. So anyway, let's not beat around the bush. I think everybody's kind of put it together by now. Yep, we're done. Let's do it the way. Let's go out the way we did it, QED.

Let's forget to show up for the banquet. But basically, you know, this is drawing the line under it. And Dan announced that he's going to go and do, like, he spent, you know, the past decade covering the far right stuff. So he's going to go do some travel blogging type stuff inside our travel podcast. So another podcast. it ended not exactly similarly, but had like an abrupt ending was

the, oh no, with Ross and Carrie were one episode, they just recorded separate goodbye things and then canceled that and it seemed like there were upcoming projects that had been announced and stuff, so it was quite a broad. But in that case,

there was like a lot more behind the scenes drama that went on and after. So I kind of, I genuinely do think that that's a respectable way to call things to an end, right? That, like, you have a difference of opinion. There's an event which means that maybe the original point of the podcast is, you know, not as relevant as it once was.

And you decide like you want to go do something else. So so long and thanks for all the fish. All right. So I think that I think we've made a point about the, the way that neither of us really see moving forward on this. And I don't believe, based on our, you know, some of the fundamental difference that we have, and some of the not being really able to work through whatever it is, the tension that creates the interesting dynamic between us, it makes it difficult for us to say, okay, well, why don't we try something else?

and so I don't know exactly like what your plans are or if you have something that you would want to direct people to in the future. I have some projects that I'm working on and I hope people will check them out and will go to them and hopefully they don't suck. We'll see. But we're not going to be working together in the immediate future. Not in the immediate future, no.

It's not a hostility. it's not a hate, but it is a... I mean, it's a very the dynamic isn't the best for all parties. For right now especially, yeah. Well, I don't think this can ever happen to us because we have not... I'll never let you leave.

That's right. There's that. There's that. And we haven't foolishly tackled our horse to just one guru. We embrace them all, and they keep coming. They can fast, don't they? So there's never going to be

end, it's never going to stop until one of us gets too old and tired and unsolver to continue. Which one of us? I wonder that we'll have a bit first. Could be I look. You've got to keep me sweet. Keep playing your cards right, Kavanagh, and I'll stick around. No, is that the way it goes? Well, yeah, like the thing that we've talked about in interviews and other stuff is, you know, you and I do the podcast primarily because we enjoy it, right? And because these are things that we, we talk about and I find interesting and stuff independently of ever recording a podcast. So like, if it were the case that we just became like super depressed and it was something we hated doing, I mean, we wouldn't do it. Oh, God, no. No, no, this is my whole

philosophy of life. Like, like the whole reason I work at a university and I don't work somewhere else is because I've structured my life around doing things that I enjoy doing. And, and this is a natural extension of that. And it is, it is fun, right? Like, we're just talking about the Gilchrist episode. And by the way, before you, before you say, you don't want to listen to sense makers anymore. Don't forget, we have meaning in the meta crisis coming up. Don't worry. Do you forget about that? I always forget. I'm like, you know, I forget after a week or so, I'm like, I'll be going to hear from them again. It's here on them again.

And, but you know, by the end, yes, maybe we're a bit irritated and had enough, you know. But it's like eating a big meal, you know. Yes. Yeah. Afterwards, you get the check and you're like, what's this? Why did I pay for all of this? I don't want this. I thought you were going to go with a feeling of feel like you're full up that you went too much.

Well, you are. Well, you are. That's too much. It costs too much. No, I meant like you're so full and you're not hungry at all. so you can't, like, why am I? Why do I do this? Why do they do this?

But it was interesting. Like, I, it is, like, it's someone like McGilchrist who I didn't know anything about before we started. You described it as at the beginning, they're like an interesting little puzzle. Like, what's the deal with this guy? And I didn't, you know, I had no prior expectations going in.

And then you dig around and the mists began to clear. And you're like, I think I know what kind of guy. this is. But, you know, he's a bit different in this way and that way. And then you find out they're into demons. And then it, you know, that's usually how it ends. But, yeah,

but it is, I mean, he's not just about the demons, obviously, but, you know, part sense maker, part religious, you know,

person, part, part kind of the old-fashioned, like, English pastor type character. he yearns for a simpler time and so on and so much of it you can identify with or some of it you can identify with some of it is you think it's silly some of it's quite sophisticated

other times you look at the the sophistication and then it turns out that you know even though a lot of big words are being used and a lot of philosophers are being cited it isn't really very sensible or reasonable but it's always an interesting journey so yeah I'm still enjoying Yeah, I do also think that, like, you take someone like Ian McGilchrist that, like, you know, I went through Matt and I do this in part because the speed of which I consume podcasts is much higher than most people. But like, I listen to a bunch of allure, Ian McGill-Christop, right? That's where we got the demon clips from. And the thing is that, you know, the format of the show is supposed to be that we're taking a single piece of content usually. and like focusing on what's in that.

But our argument is that often what people talk and the way that they argue carries across, you know, all their materials. So it's like, you know, random probabilistic sampling. Yeah, it's surprisingly representative. People are surprisingly consistent. Yeah. And I can say that like the Ian McGilchrist thing,

yes, there's different kinds of presentations, right? He's not always going to bring up demons, controlling AI. It very much depends on the company. That's the topic you only bring up with certain special sets requires. But I can very readily recognize his motifs now.

And you hear it in almost every appearance. I saw new clips of Scott Galloway. And I immediately recognized, oh yeah, that's what he does. That's how he frames things and stuff like that. So, yeah, I think it is interesting. Like, I mean, if you wanted to, you could go and detail Stefan Mullenew's horror show of a back catalog, right? Thousands of thousands of episodes.

If you did that, you would find all these unique horrors that nobody had tipped across before, right? Where he's been particularly horrific in ways that you didn't anticipate. I mean, we took a random couple of episodes and we discovered a whole bunch of ones I've never heard anybody mention. But, like, at some point, what Stefan Mollinue does. is fairly well known. So if you're doing that, it is mostly because you want to, I don't know, right?

Maybe you want to explore the cosmology of a particular character. And that, like, knowledge fight did with Alex, and that's fine, but it is all variations on a theme at something. Yes. And Alex, I think, like, in their case, to return it to that point,

they'd done more than you could have ever expected anyone to do documenting that world. And some of their coverage is excellent. Like the stuff they did over the Sandy Hook trials, the depositions and stuff. That's what I listened to. That was really good. Very informative. Yeah.

That was incredible good. And that was, I might say, the peak in some ways, you know, in terms of the analytical content, because they were covering stuff that nobody else was showing. But overall, that kind of thing is, like, useful for people to be doing. but you shouldn't be doing it if it's like draining your soul. And I kind of also respect that Dan is now going on to do something completely different

because it's, yeah, it's just, it's nice to see that they don't feel pigeonhole that, you know, they have to do another thing which is, okay, now we're going to cover another figure in the same way. Like if you're not feeling that, like, yeah, don't do it. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, do it anyway you like, basically.

Everyone should do it any way they like. But one thing I like about the way we do it is that we do approach them as interesting little puzzles to be understood. And then if they deserve it, make fun of them. But that comes later, right? Sometimes. Sometimes we might do that. But I mean, they are like, they are strange fruit, right? They are exotic flowers, right?

And, you know, that's why we find them interesting, right? And I think you do learn something from unusual characters. A bit like, oh, what's his name, that documentarian? He just did the... Oh, Louis-Fruroo. Yeah, Louis-Fer-Rue. Like, you sort of learn something from the edges, from these extreme examples. Yeah.

I think it is good. And so I think we approach it from the point of view of curiosity, even if the curiosity is, what the fuck? But... Yeah. But, you know, I know that you could approach this from the point of view of, like, activism, right? Which is these people are terrible. They're doing terrible things.

They're anti-vaxes and anti-vax is bad and it should be stopped, right? Yes. They're arguing for a stupid version of consciousness. Their reaction is a mind-body dualism. We have to smack that down or whatever. And, you know, do what you want. Everyone's true to do what they want. But I think if I had that attitude, I would burn out very quickly.

But I think you could still have good things. For instance, I think being informative about stuff like Lablake or what the kind of narratives and anti-vaccers are doing, you name it. I think you can still have a positive effect on the world simply by approaching things from the point of view of curiosity. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, like you say, I think the general thing is that in most cases, you're never going to win against, like, human irrationality or tribalism or any of these kind of things, right?

You can make dance in individuals or, you know, point out hypocrisies and all that kind of thing. But the appeal of, you know, conspiratorial narratives and stuff is just, it's, it runs deep. So I think you have to be realistic about what you can ultimately achieve and be a piece with that. Like I don't think when we're dead that there'll be an end to gurus or anything like that. No, there'll be new ones and there'll be doing new things. And that's just, you know, that's the nature of humans and the way that we're organized. But it doesn't mean that it's wrong to try and, you know, point out what Russell Brand is up to or any of that shit. I think it can still also be valid for people to try.

Right. But yeah. So, you know, whatever your thing be, it's up to each individual person. But I do think that like activist style approaches can lead to burnout pretty quickly. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, it's kind of connected to having, I guess, calibrated expectations about human psychology, which you mentioned, right? Like, there are some things that are human constants, like being tribal, status seeking,

motivated reasoning, hypocrites and, you know, enjoying comforting illusions and so on, right? This is stuff that, like, people are always going to do. But that's not to say the world can't get better, right? Because the world has gotten better, demonstrably so, right, over the last thousand years or so. And it'll probably continue getting better in fits and start. So, you know, I think there's a certain mental set, which is that if you just destroy the bad things, you know what I mean? Get rid of these bad people or rectify this injustice or whatever, then sort of people are perfectable. And that if we create the perfect set of principles and systems or social conventions or whatever, then we'll live in peace and harmony and everything will be fine.

and I guess I don't believe that. No. Because you're working against human nature. But it's not a kind of fatalism or cynicism either, right? There is a middle way, right? Which is, yeah, things can incrementally get a little bit better. But like anti-vax, just to say one example, that's been around ever since they invented vaccinations. And it'll probably be around for the foreseeable future.

And, you know, you're not going to eliminate that kind of. of things. So you have to just just calibrate what you can do. I mean, you should do what you can, but yeah. Yeah, but that's so like the our message there, for example, you know, Matt and I are very firm advocates for vaccination. You won't find firmer, ladies and gentlemen. And against anti-vaccation. So it isn't like the moral is don't, don't bother trying to combat anti-vax stuff. Yeah, right? We have tried, demonstrably. Right. But you're right that like ultimately, I think it's much more healthy and ambilistic to accept that even doing that,

you're just not going to ever completely defeat the appeal of anti-vaccine narratives because, you know, they're basically digging into naturalistic fallacy and concerns about corporations and so on and so forth. So yeah. Yeah. I think the other danger too, if you take a kind of a crusade attitude to the bad things, the things that you're criticizing or whatever, which is that you can get rather reactive and you can get a kind of tunnel vision where the thing that you are focusing on, which is legitimately bad, it's not a good thing, becomes a little bit all-encompassing.

Oh, yeah. You lose a sense of perspective, I think. And you know, like, you know, you can see that, you can see that on like whatever the political persuasion. I can think of left-wing activist examples. But I can also think of like the anti-woke, you know, like these people like they started off in some cases, just liberal, moderate, centristy-type people and progressively became extremists and really unreasonable people. And I mean, you know, some of them were probably unreasonable to start. with, you might say some of them were hiding their power level, as our friend Aaron might say, but I think many of them legitimately basically radicalize themselves precisely from the same

side of psychological dynamic, right, which is that the thing that they observe, that's bad, they obsess over it, and it gets magnified to the exclusion of everything else. And that lost perspective means that they're now on board with everything that is anti, which is not that, you know, which is not good, right? Maga is not good. No. So, yeah. Well, yeah. And that I think is an example where our approach is different than some of those because like in our case, for example, yes, gurus have become more influential with the rise of like populist movements and and so on. But like they're not the only thing that matters, right? You can look at things around economics or, you know, history or trends in media or all sorts of different approaches to things.

And like the psychological guru dynamics are just a component, right, of what's going on with any movement or moment in history. So we find it interesting, but it isn't by any means the only or most important thing that is out there, right? But another hand listeners, if you think Chris is wrong and you think gurus are the most important thing and have to be stopped, subscribe to our Patreon, come in at the top of year, $10 a month, you can contribute to the cause, all right? He's not necessarily right. He could be wrong.

Well, I think best to be on the safe side. Yeah, I'd prefer to get and subscribe if they could be in the way to be honest. But sure, sure. Come on, come all. Well, you know the problem with the people who subscribe to our Patreon, Chris? You know, what's the problem with them? What do you want to tell them? You know what really grinds my gears about them?

I mean, tell you. Like, I thought that the Patreon would be this little walled garden where I, the influencer, just get to have, you know, universe, you know, just strut around like a big deal, right? That's what that's. A big peacock, right? Yeah, big peacock. Yeah, strutting around. Your tailfellers.

That's it. That's right. So we started up the little thing, Matt's foodie corner. which was mainly a place meant for me to post my efforts at cooking and then for people to congratulate me on how awesome it is. I don't know that's what its purpose was, but sure. Carry on, carry on. Okay. In your head, yes, that's what it was, right. Matt's footy corner. I thought it was a way to get the food post side of the bean feet, but yes, carry on.

But it seems that there's a strong correlation between guru and joyers and like professional chefs, like professional bakers, people that go to French restaurants in Paris and take photographs of their food, basically outdoing me at every turn. And yeah, so, you know, if you're really good at, you know, baking and... Maybe stay out of them.

Maybe, yeah, just cool your jets. Just cool your jets. I don't know what message we're saying to the truth. It's like that, but you can, you guys can put it. So I don't mind seeing your nice food. I live in Japan, so I just, I'm perfectly content with the other food. I enjoy seeing the lights of culinary traditions across the world.

But Khrmuchin, Matt, there. Well, look, now, Chris, before we flood up, we have to get to an airing grievances. Stupid things we've seen on the internet. I've got a couple of things. Did you have any topics you want to raise? well, I know that just now we've been, you know, talking about how we accept all these different ways, different approaches that people have. We never dare disparage any of them as being better or worse. We simply exist in pure, transcendent bliss, accepting everybody as they are. Come what may. However, Michael Shermer is insane. No, he's a self-scient skeptic. He actually has a publication called the Skeptych. I think it's fair to say, leader of us is a pretty fun of his approach to makes but I believe recently you came across

some particularly if you'd like to continue listening to this conversation you'll need to subscribe at patreon.com slash decoding the gurus once you do you'll get access to full-length episodes of the decoding the gurus podcast including bonus shows gerometer episodes and decoding academia the decoding the gurus podcast is ad-free and relies entirely on listener support. And for as little as $5 a month, you can discover the real and secret academic insights the Ivory Tower elites won't tell you. This forbidden knowledge is more valuable than a top-tier university diploma, minus the accreditation. Your donations bring us closer to saving Western civilization. So subscribe now at patreon.com slash decoding the gurus.