Democracy Now! Audio - Democracy Now! 2025-08-21 Thursday

Episode Date: August 21, 2025

Democracy Now! Thursday, August 21, 2025

From New York, this is Democracy Now. I just wanted to die right now. I think it's the only way I will find relief. I don't want to be displaced again. I'm so tired. I'm so tired. I wish I could see you soon, even just for a moment and hug you before I die.

A voice note from a Palestinian medical student in Gaza City to her mentor, Dr. Mimi Syed. Dr. Sayyed has just been denied re-entry for what would have been her third medical mission in Gaza. We'll go to Amman to speak with Dr. Sayyad as Israel intensifies its military takeover of Gaza City. Then to the occupied West Bank, where the Israeli governments approved a settlement plan from far-right finance minister Bezal Smotric to permanently divide the West Bank and cut it off from East Jerusalem. Salam. Whoever in the world is trying to recognize at Palestinian state today will receive our answer on the ground, not with documents nor the decisions or statements, but with facts.

Facts of houses, facts of neighborhoods, roads, and of more and more Jewish families building lives. And finally, President Trump has once again attacked the Smithsonian for focusing too much on, unquote, how bad slavery was, unquote. We go back into the Democracy Now archive to a 2020 conversation with Lonnie Bunch, founding director of the National Museum of African American History and Culture at the time he'd just been elevated to the position he holds today, secretary of the entire Smithsonian Institution in all 21 of its museums. I think what I've made clear throughout my career is history is unvarned. furnished. You've got to tell difficult truths. The one thing you can count on, we don't hide the truth at the Smithsonian. All that and more coming up.

Welcome to Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. Israel's announced plans to call up 60,000 reservists as it escalates its operation to seize all of Gaza's city and to forcibly remove the city. entire population. Al Jazeera reports Israel's carrying out systematic demolitions of Palestinian homes across Gaza City. On Wednesday, Israel killed at least 81 Palestinians, including five an attack on a tent in the Shati camp in Gaza City. The attack killed three children, ages four, seven, and nine, along with their parents. Israel's killed another 20 Palestinians since dawn today. At least two more. Palestinians have starved to death, bringing the total to 271.

Meanwhile, in Israeli newspapers revealed, the Israeli military has a population relocation unit to oversee the forced displacement of Palestinians in Gaza. Earlier today, UN Secretary General Antonio Gutierrez condemned Israel's escalation in Gaza City. I must reiterate that it is vital to reach immediately. a ceasefire in Gaza and the unconditional release of all hostages, and to avoid the massive deaths and destruction that a military operation against Gaza City would inevitably cause. Israel's governments granted final approval to a settlement project in the occupied West Bank

that would effectively split Palestinian territory into sabotaging efforts at creating a future Palestinian state. The E1 settlement would see the construction of about 3,400 new housing units and would sever one of the few remaining territorial links between major Palestinian cities like Ramallah in the northern West Bank and southern cities like Bethlehem. Approval of the E1 settlement quickly drew international outrage. the U.N. Secretary General condemned the plan as a, quote, existential threat to the two-state solution, unquote, while British Foreign Secretary David Lamy condemned it as a flagrant breach of international law. The U.S. State Department's fired its top press officer for Israeli-Palestinian affairs. The Washington Post reports the officer, Shahad Ganeshi, was fired days after he recommended expressing condolence. for journalists killed in Gaza and for opposing the forced displacement of Palestinians.

In one case, Ganesi had drafted a press statement that read, quote, We do not support forced displacement of Palestinians in Gaza, unquote, but State Department vetoed the language. The U.S. State Department sanctioned four more officials at the International Criminal Court. It's the latest move by the Trump administration to retaliate against the court for issuing an arrest warrant last year for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his former defense minister for crimes against humanity and war crimes in Gaza. On Wednesday, UN spokesperson, Stefan Dujarak, condemned the U.S. actions.

The decision imposes severe impediments on the functioning of the office of the prosecutor and respect for all the situations that are currently before the court. Judicial independence is a basic principle that must be respected, and these types of measures undermine the foundation of international justice. Russia escalated its assault on Ukraine overnight, firing 574 drones and 40 ballistic and cruise missiles in one of its biggest aerial attacks of the year. At least one civilian was killed and 15 injured in the latest Russian. attack. Russia also hit an American electronics manufacturer in Western Ukraine near the Hungarian

border. Meanwhile, the Kremlin has yet to commit to talks between Russian President Vladimir Putin and Ukrainian President Volodymy Zelensky, despite calls for a summit by President Trump. Russia is also demanding to be part of any future security guarantees for Ukraine, a position strongly opposed by Kiev and European leaders. Russian foreign ministers, Lovov said, quote, seriously discussing issues of ensuring security without the Russian Federation is a utopia, a road to nowhere, he said. The Wall Street Journal reports President Trump has ordered the Pentagon to send three U.S. Navy warships to South America, including near the coast of Venezuela.

This comes after Trump recently signed a secret directive authorizing the U.S. military to carry out attacks in Latin America to target drug cartels. On Tuesday, the Colombian president, Gustavo Petro, warned the U.S. against using military force in the region. The Americans are wrong if they think that by invading Venezuela, they are solving their problems. They're putting Venezuela in the same situation as Syria, but they would drag Colombia into the same because these groups would take over underground resources and minimal.

And this means more economy of death, not of life. So I told the United States through its envoys that invading Venezuela would be the worst mistake. Texas's Republican-led House of Representatives have approved a new Congressional District map designed to flip five Democratic-held U.S. House seats in the 2026 midterm elections. A bill redrawing the maps to favor Republicans passed along party lines Wednesday, advancing the legislation to take. Texas's Republican-controlled Senate, where its approval is all but guaranteed. This rare instance of mid-decade redistricting came at the behest of President Trump. Its passage was held up for weeks after more than 50 Democratic lawmakers fled Texas to deny Republicans' quorum for a vote.

They returned to Austin this week amidst threats by Republican leaders to have them arrested or removed from office and replaced. Houston, Representative John Rosenthal, said he and fellow Democrats will sue to block the gerrymandered map once it's signed into law by the Republican Governor Greg Abbott. It's not just a power grab. It's the fact that because they're going to lose, they want to pick up more votes, but it's the way they're going about it by dismantling black and brown districts. And let's face it, this is a racist power grab that especially,

especially goes after our African American representatives in Congress. A federal appeals court has cleared the way for the Trump administration to revoke temporary protected status for 60,000 people from Honduras, Nepal, Nicaragua. Immigrant rights advocates warn the decision could lead to the deportation of families who've lived lawfully in the United States for decades. In other immigration news, New York lawmakers have condemned the Trump administration for deporting a six-year-old New York elementary school student. girl and her mother were detained at an ICE check-in last week, then deported to Ecuador Tuesday. The girls' elementary school principal had urged ICE to halt the deportation, saying her, quote, unexpected removal will cause significant disruption to her learning and will likely have a deep emotional impact on our classmates and our entire school community, unquote.

Meanwhile, in San Francisco, federal immigration agents tackled and zipped. a protester outside San Francisco's ICE office on Wednesday. Officers also pepper-sprayed a number of people, including a journalist. In Washington, D.C., Vice President J.D. Vance, Defense Secretary Pete Heggseth and Trump advisor, Stephen Miller, were repeatedly booed and heckled Wednesday as they visited National Guard Troops stationed at Union Station. Some in the crowd chanted from D.C. to Palestine occupation is a crime. This comes as the National Guards expanding its presence in the nation's capital after six Republican governors deployed troops to support Trump's takeover of the D.C. police. President Trump's called on Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook to resign

in his latest attack on the Fed's independence. Cook, who's the first black woman to ever serve as a Fed governor, has rejected Trump's call saying she won't be bullied into stepping down. Trump has also repeatedly threatened to fire Fed chair Jerome Powell. Trump's threat against Cook came after a Trump official alleged she once committed mortgage fraud by claiming two properties to be her primary residence. Another federal judge has rejected the Justice Department's request to unseal grand jury testimony related to the Jeffrey Epstein sex trafficking case. Judge Richard Berman wrote, quote, the government is the logical party to make comprehensive disclosure to the public of the Epstein files, unquote.

St. Charles, Missouri has become the latest community to fight off plans to build a massive AI data center. The developer of the project withdrew the plans this week amidst growing community opposition to the secretive project. The community never even learned which company was behind the proposal. And police in Redmond, Washington, arrested 18 people at a protest encampment at Microsoft's headquarters Wednesday. The protest was organized by the group No Azure for Apartate, which is made up of current and former Microsoft workers opposed to Microsoft's work with the Israeli military. Microsoft provides AI and cloud technology used by Israeli forces in Gaza. Microsoft has also helped Israel carry out mass surveillance of Palestinians. And those are some of the headlines.

This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the Warren Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. Israel's military says it's established a foothold on the outskirts of Gaza City and will call up an additional 60,000 reservists ahead of a full-scale invasion of Gaza's largest urban area. This follows days of escalating airstrikes and artillery fire that have killed scores. of Palestinians one of the world's most densely populated regions. On Wednesday, Israeli attacks killed at least 81 Palestinians, including five killed in a strike on a tents in Gaza City's

Shati camp. The attack killed three children, four, seven, and nine, along with their parents. Israel has killed another 20 Palestinians since dawn today. At least three more Palestinians have starved to death, bringing the total to 271. Meanwhile, Israel stepped up its demolition of Palestinian homes around Gaza City after ordering the force displacement of its nearly one million inhabitants. Well, our next guest is an emergency medicine physician who's been on two medical missions in Gaza working in hospitals that were under Israeli siege. Dr. Mimi Syed received news Wednesday that Israel had denied her reentry into Gaza just

hours before she was scheduled to travel there for a third medical mission. Ahead of her planned trip, Dr. Sayyed received a voice. memo from a Palestinian medical student in Gaza City who she met on an earlier medical mission. The student asked her in Nemean anonymous for safety. It's been over a week since the famine began. And honestly, I haven't felt full even once. I'm constantly hungry all the day, every day. I sleep every day with hunger. I can't take anymore. Mimi, you know, I just, I feel weak.

I feel too weak to move. And I have to still continue my hospital training every single day without eating. That's a Palestinian medical student in Gaza City. Dr. Mimi Syed joins us now from Amman Jordan. In addition to her past work in Gaza, she's also an assistant. clinical professor at the University of Washington and Washington State University and a fellow of the American College of Emergency Physicians. Welcome to Democracy Now, Dr. Sayyad.

I want to ask more about this Palestinian student and play more of the voice memo she sent to her. Describe the situation to us and who she is, who you work with. I know you can't identify her because she is really concerned about security. Hi, thanks for having me. Yes. This is someone that has become a very close friend. We worked very closely together when I was there during my first medical mission. We spent all of our time together and some of the worst mass casualty incidents at that time. And we've kept in touch since and talked daily. And this is a six-year medical student that has been interrupted in her training over and over again, has been displaced. with her family continually and is now being starved. And I just got word that, you know, now she has just gotten evacuation orders. She is in Gaza City and is told that she has to evacuate again. And, you know, one of the voice memos I had sent in earlier in the week is she is refusing

to leave. She doesn't want to leave, you know, being displaced under being so exhausted and so starved. I can't even imagine that cruelty and how difficult it is. So let's go back to that voice memo that she sent you, this Palestinian medical student in Gaza City, also from Tuesday. Hello, my dear Mimi. Ever since I found out that you couldn't enter Gaza because of the occupation's refusal, I've been very sad.

I had hope that I will see you soon and start to feel better from my various state of depression and sadness. But now, I no longer have any hope. Everything feels over. We don't even want you to come and help us. They are devils in every sense of the word. I mean, I don't want anything from life except death because I truly believe I will find peace on it. I just want everyone to pray for me. I was really hoping to see you soon, but in Gaza, things never go the way we want.

I wish there another chance to see you, my dear, hug you, but I know I won't make it. I know. I love you so much and I'm really sorry. And on other things, the Israel have really started occupying Gaza. I'm so sad. and I'm so tired. We're going to displace again. Oh my God.

No longer have any hope. I just want to die. I just want to die right now. Oh, my God. You know that. I love you so much, my dear. And it's such an honor to know you. Love you.

Don't forget to pray for us. Thank you so much for everything. Again, a Palestinian medical student in Gaza City, in a voice note to our guest, Dr. Mimi Syed, emergency medical physician, who would hope to not only, of course, reunite with this Palestinian student, but to serve a third medical mission in Gaza. Can you tell us why you were denied, Dr. Mimi,

You know, I wish I knew. None of us are ever given a reason for our denials. We simply get a message with our name in red saying denied and the organization that we were with. I'm traveling with another colleague of mine that's a doctor in France and she was also denied. So two out of the three in our group were denied. And one of them is a nurse and he is not allowed to go in by himself in the organization. So all three of us are not going to Gaza today. We were supposed to leave early this morning. And again, when we try to inquire about the reasons why we are getting denied, when we previously had clearance in the last two missions that I was in, we're not given any reason. There is, it's either it's random. You know, it's always left to speculate why we are

getting denied. Both my colleague and I that have been denied this time, we have been incredibly vocal about what we witnessed in Gaza and have spoken out against the Israeli policies. But there's really no rhyme or reason. And this continues to happen in the last three months. There has been a significant increase in the number of denials for foreign physicians. And we are, again, never given a reason. Well, really, you, in addition to providing medical services, have also become the eyes and ears for the Western community because Israel denies international journalists, the ability to go into Gaza. So here you are describing with medical precision, not only the condition of people, but for months have been describing the situation

on the ground there. Can you talk about the aid you were trying to bring in? Yeah, I mean, again, Amy, you know, this is not aid that's going to fix any of the problems in Gaza, right? This was not enough aid that that's going to to solve the starvation. But it was a little bit of aid that I could have brought in for the babies, at least in the NICUs, the infants that are starving that need baby formula. There's there hasn't been protein in the market. Even when I was there back in August, there was no protein in the market last year. So I was bringing a little bit of chicken and tuna for people there. But, you know, the point of all of this is I shouldn't have to smuggle, as a doctor,

I shouldn't have to smuggle in baby formula. I shouldn't have to smuggle in protein. This is not something that should be weaponized. And to your point, I have to think, you know, one of the reasons why we keep getting denied is because the same reason why journalists get targeted and killed in Gaza, the same reason why foreign journalists are not allowed in Gaza. The same thing happened in March when there was a break and ceasefire by Israel. There was a large denial, a large group of physicians that were going in that were denied right before. They had this incredible invasion like they're about to do right now in Gaza City. And that's, you know, one of the major reasons why we're not allowed to go in. This is, again, a systematic and

deliberate destruction of the health care system. These healthcare workers have been working day in and day out, and most of them volunteering and now being starved for almost two years. So the little bit of relief that us foreign doctors can provide, that has also been revoked and taken away from them. And it's nothing but cruelty, and it's nothing but intentional. You've called out the World Health Organization, the WHO, and the UN. The UN, every almost day, Antonio Guterres, criticizes what Israel is doing in Gaza. Yes, most recently, we played his demand for a ceasefire. What do you want them to do? And then, of course, your own government. You come from Washington State, the United States government.

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, when we're getting refusals, there should be some pushback. There should be inquiry as to why we are getting refused. This is humanitarian aid being denied. I believe that is a war crime. That is a violation of human rights. And so I expect some pushback. I expect some questioning. And, you know, everyone is responsible for it. As far as my government goes, of course, we all know that the U.S. is the biggest supporter of this current genocide as it's been termed by many organizations and my state

my own representative which I am a constituent of I may mention Marilyn Strickland has refused to meet me I have requested multiple times to sit down with her and she has refused to meet me so I feel very shameful that this is my government contributing to

all of this and it can stop tomorrow if the United States decides that it can stop and it will stop it can stop tomorrow. Finally we wanted to ask you about the State Department suspending all visitor visas from Gaza, including for children who need urgent medical care. Last week, we played our interview with Ms. Rachel, a well-known child educator, the Mr. Rogers of our time. And she was singing and dancing with a little three-year-old Palestinian girl from Gaza named Rahaf, who had lost both her legs and was wearing. prosthetics. She had come in under this program that allows children to be treated, but that now

has been paused. Yeah, again, this is a smear campaign, right? And I've seen the tweets that I've been coming out, and, you know, all of this is based on racism and lies. I have nothing else that I can base it on, all of the things that I'm seeing. There is absolutely no basis. to say that the people that are coming in have any ties to Hamas or anything of the sort. These are fabricated things. These are children. These are children with amputations that have medical needs, significant medical needs that are being evacuated with their parents, with their mothers. I don't even know where to begin with that. How can you say that those children don't deserve the medical care? The things, the disgusting things that have been

coming out, for example, from Laura Lumer on X. They're based on hatred. They're based on racism and lies and stereotypes. And that's really what it is. And I think that people need to start seeing through that and not pushing forward this propaganda because these are smear campaigns to prevent children from getting medical aid. And I think as the U.S., since we are supplying the bombs, the ammunition to cause these injuries, it behooves us to help these children. Dr. Mimi Seyed, I want to thank you for being with us. Emergency Medical Physician denied entry on her third medical mission in Gaza, previously served as a doctor in Gaza twice in 2024, also an assistant clinical professor at University of Washington and Washington State

University Fellow of the American College of Her Emergency Physicians speaking to us today from Amman, Jordan. Coming up, we go to Ramallah, to the occupied West Bank, where the Israeli government has approved a settlement plan to permanently divide. the West Bank, cut it off from East Jerusalem, killing the idea, the possibility of a Palestinian state. Back in 20 seconds. Khele's all jigata. Khelea Sagan Guta by Sani Singh in our Democracy Now studio. This is Democracy Now, Democritory Now.org.

I'm Amy Goodman. We turn now to the West Bank. Israel's governments granted final approval to a settlement project that would effectively split the occupied West Bank and two, sabotaging efforts at creating a future Palestinian state. The E1 settlement would see the construction of about 3,400 new housing units with sever one of the last remaining territorial links between major Palestinian cities like Ramallah in the northern West Bank and southern cities like Bethlehem. Israel's plans for the settlement quickly drew international.

international outrage, the U.N. Secretary General, condemning it as an existential threat to the two-state solution. Last week, the far-right Israeli politician, finance minister Bezalas Motritch, celebrated the plan at a news conference. We stand here in Malai, Adomim, and clearly announced the seal has broken. The E-1 plan, Meveserat, Adamim, is hitting the road. For over two decades, we were told soon, it's coming. after the elections, and today we are finally fulfilling the promise and connecting Malé Aramim to Jerusalem, our one and only capital, a strategic security and demographic connection

and ensures our united capital for generations to come. Whoever in the world is trying to recognize at Palestinian state today will receive our answer on the ground, not with documents nor with decisions or statements, but with facts. facts of houses, facts of neighborhoods, roads, and of more and more Jewish families building lives. It will speak of the false Palestinian dream. We will continue to build a fulfilling Jewish reality. This reality definitively buries the idea of a Palestinian state simply because there is nothing to recognize and no one to recognize. For more, we're joined by Mariam Barguti, Palestinian writer and journalist based in Ramallah. Mariam, welcome back to

Democracy Now. Can you respond to these developments that occur? heard on Wednesday, the approval of the E1 settlement plan and what this means. So this is the initial approval. The formal approval is to go next week in the Israeli Knesset. But what this means is exactly in Smotrich's words, which are genocidal and intent. The arranger of Palestinians and blatantly saying that we are going to bury any prospects of a Palestinian state. And this comes as the symbolic and very... hollow threats by international leaders to recognize the Palestinian state. Now, on the ground, the reality has been that Israeli settlers and settlements have been further encroaching on Palestinians,

but it's not just in enforceably pushing Palestinians out. It is lethal. We have had at least 32 Palestinians killed at the hands of armed Israelis in the West Bank in the last 21 months. That's an average of at least one Palestinian killed by these armed Israelis per month. So what we're seeing on the ground is the actual manifestation, but it's not something that will happen. It is something that has been happening right now for years, actually. The E1 plan has been since the 90s. It's not new. It's just the international community has been delaying consequences for Israel instead of actually taking action.

Explain exactly what it is, how it cuts up the occupied West Bank. So the approval for the Ma'ali-Admim settlements will further break territorial continuity for Palestinians. That means the center of the West Bank, areas like Ramallah, which is near Jerusalem, is going to be divided from areas in the north, like Janine, Tulkaram, which have faced the largest displacement campaign since 1967 at the hands of the Israeli army, and it further breaks it away from the southern areas, areas such as Hebron. So Palestinians are unable to reach each other. Now, this is strategic.

It is tactical. It means that Palestinians are unable to organize and are unable to live collectively. And we need to remember that the West Bank is the prize for Israel. While they're obliterating Gaza, which is 365 kilometers squared, the West Bank is nearly 6,000 kilometers squared in size. And it has been the prize for Israel. Can you talk about the timing of this? as Hamas has signaled, it agrees to the latest proposal from regional mediators for a ceasefire in Gaza.

Right. So as we're saying, Israel continue to protract any agreement in terms of ending the war on Gaza. What they're doing is within that delay, they're trying to take as much as possible from the West Bank. Now, this is a double-form play, right? In Gaza, they're trying to pretend that they're wanting to reach an agreement. While in the West Bank, they're actually escalating in violence. So it's a tag team for Israel. It is not a genuine and sincere attempt at ending the annihilation of Palestinian human life. And as we've heard Smotritch say, he doesn't want, Israelis don't want Palestinians on this land.

And again, that is genocidal intent. Can you talk about the role, Mariam, of the Palestinian Authority in the displacement of Palestinians throughout the West Bank? And how many Palestinians there are there? Right. So the Palestinian Authority has been complicit and collaborating with Israel for decades against Palestinians. We have especially seen this during the Israeli Operation Iron Wall, where thousands of

Palestinians were displaced in the north, the Palestinian authority continued to target any form of resistance that Palestinians had in the West Bank. And now you've heard also the foreign minister of the PA call for the disarming, again, also of Gaza. Now, what that means is that it exposes Palestinians to be even more vulnerable to Israeli attacks. And this is dangerous because we are seeing alarming, alarming rates of Palestinians being displaced in the West Bank, forcibly displaced, often at gunpoint by Israelis. And the Palestinian Authority does not intervene, where we even have the Israeli army and settlers coming to areas such as Ramallah, the de facto headquarters of the PA,

the only armed group that is available for Palestinians right now. Meanwhile, the Israeli military is calling up about 60,000 reservists ahead of this expense. ground offensive on Gaza City where there are a million Palestinians. Can you talk about the approach to Gaza and to the West Bank right now by the Israeli military, the Israeli government? Yes. The Israeli military right now is seeking to destroy what little remains of Gaza. Now, the deployment of such a large number of Israeli soldiers, especially in light of ongoing protests in Tel Aviv against the Israeli government. It means that what's left in the West Bank

are the armed Israelis within the settlements. So they're going again to destroy, attempt to destroy what little remains in Gaza militarily. And in the West Bank, it's going to, we're witnessing already, an unleashing of these armed Israeli militia groups that are state-backed. So Israel is not engaging in just a war in Gaza. We need to remember this. It is engaging in a war of annihilation of Palestinians. And finally, on the issue of the Israeli protests, up to a million Israelis demanding a ceasefire, criticizing Netanyahu, what does that mean to you? Is that a shift in Israeli public opinion? I don't think it's a shift. It's the expected response. They are not calling for a ceasefire.

We need to be very clear about that. They're calling for the release of the hostages. The intent of these protests is not to preserve human life. It is not to honor international law. It is to try and bring the hostages home, right? And in that regards, it's not even anti-government. It's just anti-current strategic movement. But in the West Bank, again, you don't see any calls to end the occupation of the West Bank. You don't see any calls that emphasize the colonial nature of Israel. So they're very insincere. And again, they highlight that this is very a selfish call for Israeli self-preservation rather than respect to human life. Mariam Bargutti, I want to thank you for being with us, Palestinian writer, journalist based in Ramallah in the Occupied West Bank. This is Democracy

Now. When we come back, we hear from our archive, Lonnie Bunch, the head of the Smithsonian Institution. Stay with us. The Malianzanoi and singer Fatumato Jua in our democracy and singer Fatumato Jouara in our democracy. Now studio. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org. I'm Amy Goodman. President Trump said Tuesday, the Smithsonian Institution was too narrowly focused on negative aspects of U.S. history, including, quote, how bad slavery was, unquote. Trump's social media posts minimizing the horrors of chattel slavery came after the White House ordered a far-reaching review of Smithsonian Museum exhibitions in order to ensure they align with Trump's interpretation of U.S. history.

In July, the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History removed references to President Trump's two impeachments from an exhibit. The Washington Post reports the change occurred during a content review done under pressure from the White House to remove an art museum director. The references were restored earlier this month, though with changes to the prior text. In a letter to the Secretary of the Smithsonian Lonnie Bunch, the White House writes that first museums to be reviewed would include the National Museums of American History. of African-American history and culture, the National Museum of the American Indian, among several others. Well, in early 2020, just before the pandemic, I had the opportunity to sit down with Lonnie Bunch of Bus Boys and Poets in Washington, D.C., on the occasion of his release of his new

book of Fool's Errant, creating the National Museum of African American History and Culture in the age of Bush, Obama, and Trump. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the 14th century. secretary of the Smithsonian. Miracles do happen. So, how does it feel Lonnie Bunch the third?

To be the first African American head of the Smithsonian and the first historian leading the Smithsonian. I think that for me, being the head of the Smithsonian is my way of

thanking Frederick Douglass. In the 19th century, Frederick Douglass was denied the opportunity to speak at the Smithsonian by the Secretary of the Smithsonian. So when I became secretary, the first thought of my mind was, way to go, Fred.

Wait, wait, you have to tell that story. What actually happened? So Frederick Douglass was going to speak and to speak about abolitionism and the secretary of the Smithsonian said we do not want anybody black speaking at the Smithsonian and Frederick Dougas never spoke there

so for me this is about saying this isn't the same old Smithsonian anymore so talk about the location of the museum and the battle you fought you almost resigned over this

normally Congress tells the Smithsonian put a building here in this case there was a concern that this would be the last spot on the mall and many people were concerned that should that be an African-American museum and there were other spots that they wanted the museum to be places I still can't find I don't know where the hell they were but the notion was you had to make an argument where the museum should be and let's convince the regents in Congress

so I made this argument that you know the mall is where the world comes to understand what it means to be an American, and that means that story is incomplete. Look at those white buildings. Something's missing. And I said, the museum needs to be on the mall. But I realized that I didn't have any control over that. So I remember working with Kinshasha Coleman Conwell, who is my deputy, who was just brilliant. Please clap for her, because she did so much work. And so we brought in some consultants about crisis management in case we didn't get the answer we wanted.

And we figured, who knew crisis management? Clinton. So we call Clinton people. And they said to me, what are you going to do if you get a spot in the middle of nowhere that's horrible? And I wasn't sure what to do. And they said, oh, we know what you're going to do. you're going to walk, you're going to quit.

So I knew that if we didn't get the spot I wanted, I was going to have to quit. Because I could not let them use me to put black culture in the corner in the back in the dark. But I must admit, when the Smithsonian said, you'll be where we are on the corner of 14th and 15th in Constitution, all I could think about was the 14th and 15th Amendment. Here we come. One of the most important things for me was to talk about the slave trade. And I had been in museums

that made, you know, recreated slave trade. And I'm not going to be critical of it, but I hated that stuff. So I felt that we had to find real remnants of a slave ship. And so I talked to people like James Early, many of my friends, and we realized that we had to basically map the ocean floor, because that's where most of the ships were. And we spent two years, James, you remember, going to Cuba,

negotiating with everybody to allow us to dive for a slave ship that sank off the coast of Matanzas, which is 60 miles east of Havana, and we couldn't get permission to do it. Then I got lucky. I had taught every summer in the 90s in South Africa. I met a lot of people talking. and taught on Robin Island and one of my former students called Nelson Mandela with James Early you know nothing happens if you're not with James Early and so but what this student said is could you bring the resource to help find the ship and we did we found the Sal Jose it was a ship that left Lisbon in 1794 went all the way to Mozambique and picked up 512 people from the Makua tribe was on its way back to the New World

when it sank off the coast of Cape Town. Half of the people were lost, the other half were rescued and sold the next day. So we have no idea about him. But I felt really obligated to go back and talk to the Makua people. So I went to Mozambique

and met with the chief of the Makua people. And he said to me, I want to give you a gift. And he gave me a vessel, a bowl that was wrapped in cowrie shells. And when I opened it, it was full of dirt. And I'm trying to figure out the gift. And then he said, his ancestors have begged me to take the soil, take it back to the

site of the wreck, sprinkled over the site of the wreck, so for the first time from 1794, my people can sleep in their own land. That's what we did. Can you talk about the collections inside? Well, you know, one of the challenges is not having anything to begin with. And the truth is, we thought about, should this be a museum driven by technology, but it's the Smithsonian. You go to see the ruby slipper, the Greensboro Lunch Counter, some airplane, and that, I should say it differently, the Wright Flyer or the Vinn-Frizz. I'm now Secretary of the whole thing. I've got to remember that. But I think what's important is that we had to build collections. And I wasn't sure how we could do it. We didn't have a lot

money and so one night I'd come home from work late and I fell asleep in front of the television and I woke up and there was something called antique road show I had never heard of it and I thought what a good idea I'll steal it so what we did is we rebranded it saving African American treasures and we went around the country and we work with local museums to to preserve and conserve grandma's old Shaw or that 19th century photograph and then what happened is people would would then say, wow, we've got stuff. Do you want it? And we would say, give most of it to the local museums, but it was really cool and came back to D.C. And what would happen is either we got things then or people heard about us, and they called us. And the one that I always tell is so meaningful to me.

I got a call from a great collector named Charles Bloxon in Philadelphia who said he had material from Harriet Tubman. And I said, I'm a 19th century historian. Nobody's got anything from Harriet Tubman. There are two tiny artifacts in her house in Auburn, New York, and that's it. And he said, look, would you at least come up and take a look? And I respected him, but also he said he'd buy me a Philadelphia cheese steak. I said, all right, I'll come. So I go up, and Bloxon was a big man, six, four, 300 pounds, big man. And he came out carrying a tiny little box, and in the box he reached in

and pulled out photographs of Harriet Tubman's funeral that I had never seen. and I said, oh my goodness, and he got excited and he punched me. It hurt. I mean, it really hurt. He pulled out 33 things, and every time he punched me. I was doing my best rope-a-dope trying to, it hurt. Then he pulled out a hymnal that at all those spirituals that Harriet Tubman would sing, when she would alert the enslave, steal away Jesus, swing low sweet chariot,

And there it was. And by then, I am crying. I don't know what to do. I don't know if it's from the pain or the pleasure, but I'm crying. But what really scared me was I looked at this and I thought, I can't afford this. How am I going to do this? So I danced around. I said, listen, what's it going to take for this to come to the Smithsonian?

And Dr. Bloxon said, shake my hand. And it was that kind of generosity that allowed us to build the museum. We collected 40,000 artifacts, of which 70% came out of basement, trunks, and attics of people's homes. So the museum is not a museum created by us. It's a museum owned by a community who shared not their stuff, but their stories, their family, their history with us. And so that's why we felt that we could do what we had to do because we wanted people to know we honored and trusted everything they brought forward.

And the title of your book is a fool's errand creating the National Museum of African American History and Culture in the age of Bush, Obama, and Trump. So describe what happened in January of 2017 on Martin Luther King Day. I think it's important to realize that the first place Donald Trump visited in an official capacity was the museum. And I think he was stunned by the stories we told. There was so much he didn't know.

And I think what really, okay, don't laugh too long. But what I've learned is that there's so much in the museum. Most people don't know. Okay, let me try to be diplomatic on that one. But the reality is that what I realized is that if people who didn't know but had political influence could come through the museum, I could help them understand, hopefully, something that would change the way they did it. You can't change everybody, okay? I know that.

But it was really important to me to make sure that the political community came into the museum. And so I was really pleased with the fact that from that moment, moment on, even before that, the public came in waves, overwhelming numbers. I mean, think about, for me, what is powerful about the museum is we expected 4,000 people a day, we got 8,000 people a day. We ended up having the most diversely visited audience of any museum in the world, in the world. And what is so powerful to me is 30% of the people who came into the museum in the first two

years had never been in another museum in their lives. People talk about how they're able to sort of grandparents sharing with great-grandchildren. But to me, the most amazing moment there are many of them was there was a mother taking her daughter through,

thinking her son through, and she was talking about Medgar Evers, standing in front of our discussion of the great civil rights leader who was murdered in 1963, and she told his story. And after she finished, Another woman came over to her and said,

I want to thank you for telling that story. And the mother was a little, you know, why? And the woman said, because Medgar Evers was my father. That kind of thing happens over and over and over again in the museum. There are people who cross all kinds of lines, share all kinds of stories to recognize that in the era of Donald Trump, the museum has become a pilgrimage site, a site of resistance.

a site of remembering what America could be, and a site to engage new generations to recognize they have an obligation to make a country live up to its state by ideals. Going back to that visit of President Trump. I've left that visit of President Trump. You took him to the area in the museum that talks about the Dutch and the slave trade?

Do you remember this moment? I'm a historian. I remember every moment. Share that story with us. Well, no, I think it's important that when Donald Trump came through the museum, as I say in the built book, we were talking about slavery. And he mentioned that in some ways, as I, he was looking at the piece on the Netherlands and the Dutch. And I thought, you know, he's starting to engage. This is really great.

And he turned around and he said that they love me in the Netherlands. And what I realized is that's why we needed the museum. That the museum has to help people understand that though they may love you, the reality is the story is deeper, richer, more painful, and more profound. And I must admit, by the end of the tour, he began to engage more. So it taught me that that museum can engage anybody, everybody. to learn these stories. Lonnie, you write in your book

that few could comprehend how dramatically the mood of the country would be altered by the election of Donald Trump just months after the dedication of the museum. His selection changed the atmosphere in Washington and throughout the nation, and whether intentionally or not,

Trump's presidency gave voice to a conservative agenda that encouraged or at least made visible the hatred and the far-right groups that had been underground or lay dormant in recent years. That's not bad. I wrote that, huh? Not bad. Okay. I mean, I think that, look, the reality is that as a historian, I believe, that the most important thing this museum can do is create new generations of activists,

is really to say, here is a history that tells you what happens when people come together, sacrifice, fight for the greater good to change a country. It tells you how much the struggle is still in front of us but most importantly it says if you sit and simply complain

all you're doing is sitting and complaining. But if you organize if you strategize, if you plan, if you vote, you have an opportunity to help a country be what we want it to be. A country that's supposedly

lives up to its ideals. It never has, but that's our challenge to demand that. You talk about what happened in Charlottesville, the horror there of the white supremacist march. And then what happened the day before,

right outside of your museum? So there was a woman was, an Uber driver, was taking some people who were these white supremacists. They'd come to Washington and they were driving past the museum, and they started making comments about the end museum,

what a horrible place. And this woman stopped the car, said, you cannot disrespect our museum, and kick them out, right in front of the museum. Although I wish I had known, because I had to come out and said, come on in, the water is fine. But I think the point to me was

the museum within a few months had already become that symbol symbol for those that hate but a symbol of possibility for those that don't and as you know one of the challenges the building a museum the museum was considered the Smithsonian Museum most at risk

for domestic terrorism so really my biggest concern was security making sure the visitors of staff and the collections were protected and the good news is people rally around us time and time again. Can you describe what happened with the noose? So about a year later,

we have a, in a museum, discussion of segregation, we talk about the clan. And there's amazing footage of the clan marching in Washington in 1924, 1925. And the interesting part for me is where they take a break is where we built the museum. So gotcha. So I wanted, you know, that sense of unsteading that story.

But one day, the security called me, somebody left a noose on the floor. And it was really one of the most painful moments. Now, it's interesting. For me, it didn't surprise me. I expected that. But for many of my younger staff, they were unbelievably angry, unbelievably afraid, unbelievably mad. How could this happen at the Smithsonian? I was in a meeting afterwards, and all of a sudden people said, would you come out to the front of the museum?

There, for the first time, hundreds of people from other Smithsonian museums marched across the mall in solidarity with this museum. And there were people who brought flowers just to put in front of the museum as if to counter the pain and the curse of that. And it taught me something. I had never seen the Smithsonian come together like that. And I had also realized that no action of hate or terror would undermine what we accomplished. In fact, what we accomplished would illuminate that hate and a terror in a way that those that hate wouldn't want it to be understood. So that was a really dark day, but the way people responded made it one of the days I'll never forget. Lonnie Bunch, Secretary of the Smithsonian, in a February 2020 interview.

The Smithsonian Institution is the world's largest museum, education and research complex with 21 museums, 14 education and research centers, and the National Zoo. He was also the founding director of the National Museum of African American History and Culture. I interviewed him at Busboys and Poets in Washington, D.C. on the occasion of the release of his book, A Fool's Errant, creating the National Museum of African American History and Culture in the age of Bush, Obama, and Trump. It was February 2020 shortly before the start of the pandemic. Earlier this week, President Trump said the Smithsonian Institution was too narrowly focused on the negative aspects of U.S. history, including, quote, how bad. slavery was. That does it for the show. To see the whole interview with Lonnie Bunch, you can go to Democracy Now.org. I'll be back at Bus Boys and Poets September 7th interviewing Andy Shalal. I'm Amy Goodman. Thanks for joining us.