Democracy Now! Audio - Democracy Now! 2025-09-05 Friday

Episode Date: September 5, 2025

Democracy Now! Friday, September 5, 2025

From New York, this is Democracy Now. Secretary of Health and Human Services doesn't know how many how many Americans died from COVID. No, the vaccine helped prevent any deaths. And you were sitting as Secretary of Health and Human Services, human services. How can you be that ignorant? In a heated hearing, Democratic and Republican senators, two of them doctors, grill health and human services secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. over his attacks on vaccines and the firing of the head of the CDC. We'll speak to vaccine expert, Dr. Paul Offutt, who was recently blocked from participating in an FDA advisory committee. Then the Trump

administrations threatening to carry out more military attacks in Latin America under the guise of the war on drugs after the U.S. blew up a boat off the coast of Venezuela. You see the bags of drugs all over the boat, and they were hit, obviously, they won't be doing it again, and I think a lot of other people won't be doing it again when they watch that tape. While President Trump claims the strike-targeted drug smugglers, some are questioning if the U.S. actually blew up a boat carrying migrants. We'll speak to the Pulitzer Prize-winning Yale historian Greg Grandin. Plus, we go to Jakarta to look at the mass protests in Indonesia.

Human Rights Watch is calling on the Indonesian government to end its crackdown on protesters. All that and more coming up. Welcome to Democracy Now, Democracy Now.com. The War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. Israel's military says it now controls 40% of Gaza City as its forces expand their assault on densely populated residential areas, including camps for displaced Palestinians. Israeli attacks so far today have killed at least 44 people across the Gaza Strip, including at least seven children. This is Samaya Mikhtad, a relative of a family hit by an Israeli strike near Al-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, Thursday, that killed a pregnant woman and her unborn child.

The woman was getting ready to deliver a baby. Here are the diapers for the baby. The baby's clothes. In the month, she was due to deliver. What is her fault? This is a people's tent. What is their fault? Is it a war against Hamas or is it a war against the people?

Palestinian health officials say at least 30% of those killed by Israeli attacks are minors, amounting to 28 children or an entire classroom. every day for near late two years. Meanwhile, a prominent Palestinian academic has starved to death amidst Israel's blockade of food and medicine. Before his death, 60-year-old Omar Harb lost 26 members of his family to Israeli attacks, including his wife, several children, and grandchildren. He died Thursday, reportedly weighing less than 40 kilograms or 88 pounds, which is a with Harb's death, the number of Palestinians who've died of hunger and malnutrition is soared to at least 370.

Meanwhile, Hamas has released a video showing Israeli hostages Guy Gilboa Dalal and Alon O'Hel being driven around Gaza City purportedly on August 28th. The video's release comes after Israeli leaders rejected a Hamas proposal for a comprehensive deal to release remaining hostages in exchange for Palestinian prisoners and an end to Israel's assault. The U.S. Treasury Department announced sanctions Thursday against three prominent Palestinian human rights groups operating in the occupied West Bank in Gaza, citing their support for an international criminal court investigation into Israeli war crimes committed in Gaza, including genocide. In a statement, the Center for Constitutional Rights condemned the U.S.

government sanctions against Al-Hak, Amazan, and the Palestinian Center for Human Rights. CCR writes, quote, at the height of Israel's U.S.-backed genocide against the Palestinian people, the Trump administration cynically chosen to punish the advocates leading the charge for accountability. This attack cements the United States government's complicity in Israel's crime, CCR writes. In Afghanistan, the death toll from a series of earthquakes has climbed to 2,200 as a third earthquake struck the southeastern part of Afghanistan Thursday. The earthquakes left tens of thousands of people homeless and injured more than 3,600. Many women were left trapped under the rubble due to cultural rules enforced by the Taliban, forbidding physical contact between men and women who are not family members.

A rescue worker speaking to the New York Times said, quote, it felt like women were invisible. In Indonesia, authorities fired a police officer in connection with the death of a food delivery driver killed in Jakarta during an anti-government protest. The protests led by students, workers, and human rights groups have been spreading across Indonesia since last week, drawing attention to lavish spending by politicians, as well as police violence. On Wednesday, hundreds of Indonesian women wielding brooms joined protesters who marched on the parliament in Jakarta. Women are at the heart of the struggle, but our voices are often not heard. One thing that should be

considered is the participation of women, how the state has an obligation to value, respect, fulfill, and promote human rights and women's rights. But the state neglects to do so. We'll go to Jakarta later in the broadcast to speak with Human Rights Watch about the protests. On Capitol Hill, Senators grilled Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Thursday over his false claims about vaccines and mass firings and resignations of public health officials at the CDC and other agencies. The hearing opened with Oregon Senator Ron Wyden, accusing Kennedy, of elevating crackpots and conspiracy theorists while seeking to cut off access to vaccines.

Virginia Senator Mark Warner asked Kennedy whether he accepts that a million Americans died from COVID, to which Kennedy replied, I don't know how many died, and I don't think anybody knows. The Secretary of Health and Human Services doesn't know how many Americans died from COVID. I don't know if the vaccine help prevent any deaths. And you are sitting as Secretary of Health and Human Services? How can you be that ignorant? We'll have more on that hearing after headlines.

On Thursday, two former top officials at the National Institutes of Health filed whistleblower complaints, saying they were forced out of their leadership positions after they criticized the Trump administration for canceling grants and spreading vaccine skepticism. Separately, ousted CDC director Susan Monaras wrote in an op-ed that Kennedy had her fired after she insisted all recommendations be based on credible data, not ideology or preordained outcomes. We'll be speaking later in the broadcast with Dr. Paul Offutt, a vaccine expert at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, who is removed from the Food and Drug Administration's Vaccine Advisory Committee without explanation.

President Trump's nominee to serve on the Federal Reserve's Board of Governors said Thursday, he has no plans to step down as a senior economic advisor to the president and would instead take an unpaid leave of absence from his White House role while working at the Fed. Stephen Miran's proposal drew sharp criticism from Senate Democrats, who said his confirmation would threaten the U.S. Central Bank's independence. Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren spoke at the start of his confirmation hearing. Illegally removing a Fed governor is a key step in Trump's scheme to destroy the independence of the Fed and turn it into his own personal toy.

He wants to install his lackeys so that we will have a Fed that uses its power to please the president, but that can't be trusted to keep inflation under control. None of the Republicans in the Senate Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs Committee appeared to oppose Miran's nomination, indicating he's likely to be confirmed. Meanwhile, the Justice Department's launched a criminal investigation into Federal Reserve Governor Lisa Cook, who's accused of criminal mortgage fraud for listing more than one property as a primary residence when she applied for loans, allegedly, to secure lower interest rates. Cook's lawyer said in response, the Trump administration is inventing justification,

to firecook as part of President Trump's pressure campaign against the Fed, an independent government agency. ProPublica reports at least three of President Trump's cabinet members call multiple homes their primary residences on mortgages. In Minneapolis, Vice President J.D. Vance met Wednesday with families and survivors of last week's mass shooting at the Annunciation Catholic Church. Protesters gathered along the rude advances motorcade holding signs reading pro-life equals pro-gun safety and hate won't make America great. On Thursday, CNN reported senior Justice Department officials are weighing proposals to limit transgender people's right to possess firearms because the Minneapolis shooter was a trans woman.

According to the Violence Prevention Project, 98% of mass shooters in the United States, are men and boys. Less than 1% are trans people. Republican leaders of both the House and Senate will reportedly not hold votes to extend President Trump's takeover of the Washington, D.C. police force before it expires next week. This comes after D.C.'s Attorney General filed a federal lawsuit seeking to have the deployment declared unlawful and disbanded. And after a federal magistrate judge condemned what he called implausible, illegal and immoral, unquote, prosecution of defendants accused of felonies after they were swept up for relatively minor offenses. Meanwhile, the Justice Department Thursday sued Boston over its sanctuary policy limiting

cooperation between city, police, and federal immigration agents. And in Illinois, Governor J.B. Pritzker says he expects the Trump administration to deploy a surge of ICE agents to Chicago this weekend and that Trump could use resulting protests to deploy National Guard troops despite the governor's objections. Northwestern University's president, Michael Schill, has announced he will resign. This comes after the Trump administration froze $790 million in research funding to Northwestern back in April. Schill had testified on Capitol Hill last year about alleged anti-Semitism on campus and was grilled by Republican lawmakers about negotiating with pro-Palestinian student organizer

to end protests on campus. Schill's resignation came a day after Harvard won a landmark lawsuit challenging the Trump administration for similarly withholding research funds. In Harvard's case, it was more than $2 billion. A federal appeals court ruled Thursday that the Immigration Detention Center in Florida Everglades Swamp, dubbed Al-Ga-Alcatraz by the Republicans, can continue operating. The ruling blocks the lower court's ruling that orders, state and federal agencies to shut down the Immigration and Customs Enforcement Jail.

Meanwhile, the Trump administration says it's using the notorious Angola State Prison in Louisiana to incarcerate undocumented immigrants held by ICE. Republican Governor Jeff Landry was joined outside the prison Wednesday by Attorney General Pam Bondi and Homeland Security Secretary Christy Nome as they announced plans to house more than 400 men inside, half of whom are due to arrive by the end of the month. President Trump signing an executive order today, renaming the Department of Defense, the Department of War. The title it held for over 150 years until just after the Second World War when the name was changed through an act of Congress. Defense Secretary Pete Hegeseth, who's consistently

referred to U.S. soldiers as warriors, will now have the title of Secretary of War. The Pentagon says two Venezuelan F-16 fighter jets flew near a U.S. naval warship in international waters near Venezuela Thursday, describing the incident as a show of force. The reported incident came as senior Trump administration officials are refusing to provide proof of their claims that a U.S. military strike that blew up a boat in the Caribbean earlier this week was carrying drugs from Venezuela. Defense Secretary Pete Higgseth said Wednesday, he watched a live video feed. of an operation that the vessel targeted by the Pentagon was operated by the Trende-Iragua gang. But Heggseth provided no evidence to back the claims. Venezuela's communication minister claimed the video was a fake made with artificial intelligence. Meanwhile, President Nicolas Maduro announced he's mobilizing over 8 million people into the

National Bolivarian militia to defend Venezuela against U.S. aggression. We'll have more on this story later in the broadcast. And here in New York City, Mayor Eric Adams reportedly considering dropping out of the mayoral race after he met with one of President Trump's closest advisors, Steve Whitkoff, this week in Florida. Speaking to reporters, President Trump confirmed he's paying close attention to the mayoral race, saying, quote, I would like to see two people drop out and have it be one-on-one, unquote. The New York Times reports Trump is considering offering Adams and Republican candidate Curtis Sliwa positions in his administration to clear the field for former governor Andrew Cuomo to challenge Zohran Mamdani in the general election after Mamdani defeated Cuomo in the Democratic primary in June.

Mamdani spoke out Wednesday about Trump's interference in New York City politics. We are talking about a mayor who was facing an indictment. that was then dropped by this administration to ensure greater collaboration with the immigration directives of this administration, now being considered for a job offer such that he would drop out of a race to represent this city because of the fact that they believe that would increase the odds of anyone being able to defeat me. Democratic mayoral candidate Zoran Mamdani.

And those are some of the headlines. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org, the War and Peace Report. I'm Amy Goodman. In Washington, Democratic and Republican senators, two of them doctors, grilled health and human services secretary Robert of Kennedy Jr. about his attacks on vaccines and ongoing turmoil at the CDC, the Centers for Disease Control. The hearing came a week after RFK fired the head of the CDC, Susan Menares, just over a month after she was confirmed to the position. On Thursday, two former top officials at the National Institutes of Health filed whistleblower complaints saying they were forced out of their

leadership positions after they criticized the Trump administration for canceling grants and spreading vaccine skepticism. In June, Kennedy fired all 17 expert members of a CDC vaccine advisory panel. Health officials inside and outside the government are increasingly warning about Kennedy's actions. Three senior CDC officials resigned in protest last week. This week, more than a thousand current and former HHS workers sent a letter to Congress demanding Kennedy's resignation over his pseudoscientific claims and his attacks on public health. Nine former CDC directors recently wrote in the New York Times, Kennedy's endangering the health of every American. At Thursday's hearing, both Republicans and Democrats grilled Kennedy with some

calling for his resignation. This is Republican Senator, Dr. John Barrasso, majority whip in the Senate, a close ally of President Trump. He's an orthopedic surgeon. So over the last 50 years, vaccines are estimated to have saved 154 million lives worldwide. I support vaccines. I'm a doctor. Vaccines work. Secretary Kennedy, in your confirmation hearings, you promised to uphold the highest standards for vaccines. Since then, I've grown deeply concerned. The public has seen measles outbreaks, leadership in the National Institute of Health questioning the use of MRNA vaccines, the recently confirmed director of Centers for Disease Control and Prevention fired. Americans don't know who to rely on. That was Republican Senator, Dr. John Barrasso,

of Wyoming. He's number two in the Senate. Speaking to HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, And this is Democratic Senator Mark Warner of Virginia. Did you accept the fact that a million Americans died from COVID? I don't know how many died. You're the Secretary of Health and Human Services. You don't have any idea how many Americans died from COVID? I don't think anybody knows that because there was so much data chaos coming out of the CDC. And there was a lot of the security incentives.

And these are modern. I don't know the answer of how many Americans from COVID. This is the Secretary of Health and Human Services. Do you think the vaccine did anything to prevent additional deaths? Again, I would like to see the data and talk about the data. You had this job for eight months, and you don't know the data about whether the vaccine saved lives. And the problem is that they didn't have the data. The data by the Biden administration absolutely dismal.

So what is it is a chaos? Who was politicizing? You're saying the Biden administration politicize all the day? Go back to our camp well just today. They fired Dr. Grasb. Trump, Surgeon General. They fired Dr. Greer. They fired all the people who questioned the orthodoxy.

They fired Dr. Gruber, Dr. Cowell. So, Chairman, the Secretary of Health and Human Services doesn't know how many Americans died from COVID. I don't know if the vaccine helped prevent any deaths. And you were sitting as Secretary of Health and Human Services. How can you be that ignorant? That was Democratic Senator Mark Warner of Virginia, questioning Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. And this is Republican Senator, Dr. Bill Cassidy, of Louisiana.

I said yesterday, I believe it, that President Trump deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed. If he had been President Obama, he would have gotten it. But because of Operation Warp Speed, forcing the federal, government to come to a vaccine development within 10 months when others said it couldn't be done. We saved millions of lives globally, trillions of dollars. We reopened economies, an incredible accomplishment. Mr. Secretary, do you agree with me that the president, that the president deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warpsky? Yeah, absolutely, Senator. Let me ask you. But you just told Senator Bennett that the COVID vaccine killed more people than COVID.

Wait, that was a statement. I did not say that. Okay, then let me ask, because you also... Senator, I just want to make clear. I cannot say that. We'll check the record. That's a question of fact. You also said that you were also, as lead attorney for the children's health defense,

you engaged in multiple lawsuits attempting to restrict access to the COVID vaccine. Again, it surprises me that you think so highly of Operation Warp Speed, when as an attorney, you attempted to restrict access. I'm happy. I'm happy to explain why. I have three minutes and 30 seconds left. It also surprises me because you've canceled, or HHAs did, but apparently under your direction, $500 million in contracts using the MRNA vaccine platform that was critical to Operation Warp Speed. Again, an accomplishment that I think President Trump should get a Nobel Prize for him.

You canceled 500 million in contracts. That's Republican Senator, Dr. Bill Cassidy, of Louisiana, questioning Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. During a highly contentious hearing Thursday, this is more of Senator Cassidy. You also told Senator Wyden at the outset that you didn't want to take vaccines away from people. And as I conclude, I would like to say this because of the conflicting recommendations made by about COVID. This is from Eric Erickson, good conservative out of Atlanta, Georgia, occasionally gives me help. My wife has stage four lung cancer. She is one of the people that COVID vaccine actually helps.

Thanks to the current mess at HHS, CVS is unable to get her vaccine. Secondly, an email from a physician friend of mine, hey Bill, I'm not even sure what I'm asking you, but we're all confused and concern about who can get the COVID vaccine. We are having our attorney try and render an opinion, but there's no firm guidance and concern about liability if vaccines are given to a patient requested, but not on the current CDC list. Pharmacists are requiring a prescription, now even for patients over 65, creating a huge headache. I submit these for the record. Without objection. I would say effectively we're denying people vaccine. Senator Catwell. I get wrong. Again, Dr. Cassidy, Louisiana.

Senator at Thursday's hearing. Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s record as HHS is what we're looking at. We're joined by Dr. Paul Offutt, Director of the Vaccine Education Center and a physician at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. He was just blocked from participating on the FDA Advisory Committee on vaccines. Dr. Offutt is co-inventor of the rhodovirus vaccine recommended for universal use in infants by the CDC. Dr. Offutt, welcome back to Democracy Now.

So you have two doctors, both of them are Republican. One of them, Dr. Barrasso, is number two Republican leader in the Senate, severely questioning Kennedy, RFK Jr., along, of course, with the Democrats. Can you address overall what happened yesterday, what you think was most important that came out of it? And we want to really focus on what his position means for access to vaccines in this country. So Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has a 20-year history of being an anti-vaccine propagandist, science denialist, and conspiracy theorist. Since 2016, he was paid hundreds of thousands of dollars a year by children's health defense, an anti-vaccine group, to represent them, to represent their anti-vaccine point of view. he's not paid by them anymore. He's paid by us to be the number one public health officer in this country to represent the public's health. But he doesn't. He continues to be the anti-vaccine activists and propagandist that he always was. I mean, he has said that he thinks no vaccine is a beneficial. He has said he thinks the COVID vaccines were the deadliest vaccines ever made. He said that if he could go back in time, he would pay anything not to vaccinate his own children. And I think probably the best example of this. And the reason he should have been fired on the

was when during this measles epidemic, when we've had an epidemic that has involved probably about 5,000 people in this country, the biggest epidemic we've had in 33 years, we've had two children die, two healthy little girls in West Texas, six and eight-year-old die. That's the first measles death since 2003. During this epidemic, right after two children had died, he goes on national television and says that measles vaccine kills people every year, which is wrong. He says measles vaccine causes blindness and deafness, which is wrong. He said measles virus, natural measles virus prevents cancer, prevents heart disease,

prevents autoimmune disease. He never owns up to these statements. But he said that during the midst of an epidemic, that's the biggest we've had in more than three decades. Right there, Senator Cassie should have walked into Donald Trump's office and say, this is not the guy. You can still have your maha movement, but his anti-vaccine activist is causing children to die unnecessarily.

has to step down. In June, Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. fired all 17 members of the Centers for Disease Controls Vaccine Advisory Panel, accusing the panel of conflicts of interest, replacing them with vaccine skeptics. I want to turn to Colorado's Democratic Senator Michael Bennett, grilling RFK Jr. at the Senate Finance Committee hearing. Michael Bennett, the senator from Colorado. The people you put on the panel, Dr. Robert Malone, claimed that the commonly used MRNA of the vaccine, quote, causes a form of AIDS and can damage children's, quote,

brains, their heart, their immune system and their ability to have children in the future. Yes or no, Mr. Kennedy? And Dr. Malone is one of the inventors of the... Yes or no. Yes or no? Were you aware that he had that view when you pointed him to this panel? Dr. Malone is from the inventors of the MRI. That's fine.

That's not, Mr. Chairman, that statement is not true that Dr. Malone made, just as it wasn't true when you wrote that, quote, African AIDS is entirely different from Western AIDS. Are you aware that another one of these new members, Dr. Levy, wrote that, quote, evidence is mounting and indisputable that MRNA vaccines cause serious harm, including death, especially among young people? Yes or no? Are you aware that he said that? I wasn't aware he said it, but I think I agree with it. You agree with it. It's not true. So that's Senator Bennett questioning RFK Jr.

Can you explain what he's talking about, Dr. Paul Offutt, and especially the amount of money that has been pulled from MRNA research, which is not just about COVID. It's about cancer and many other diseases. No, I think Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is a one-man wrecking ball against public health. I mean, for example, when you refer to the $500 million that was withdrawn from Barta, which is a research development authority in the federal government, I mean, that's looking at things, for example, like MRNA vaccines against bird flu. And, you know, although we talk about Operation Warpspeed, which certainly was a tremendous accomplishment, but who were the real heroes of this pandemic? I would argue the real heroes are won, Drew Weissman and Katie Carricko, who in 1997 started working on

MRI technology and were able to ultimately develop that as a vaccine platform, for which they won the Nobel Prize in medicine. and then the National Institutes of Health. In 2002 and 2003, SARS-1 raised its head in China. And so they started working on an MRNA vaccine against SARS-1. Now, SARS-1 never entered this country, but we had a lot of information when SARS-CoV2 raised its head in 2019. And that's what Barta was doing, which that research development authority was doing.

They were doing the kind of groundwork so that when a, for example, bird flu, if it does become a pandemic, we would be ready. And I think people don't realize that when you see a vaccine, with Operation Warspeed, that's the tip of a much bigger iceberg. I think his tearing down of the public health infrastructure is really hurting us. And when he says that he's not denying people vaccines, nobody has been hurt by his actions more than pregnant women. He has basically said pregnant women are not recommended to receive this vaccine,

even though pregnancy is clearly a high-risk complication or a situation for people who have COVID. They're one and a half to two times more likely to be hospitalized, more likely to be mechanically ventilated, and more likely to die with COVID. than women who are pregnant who are not infected with COVID or women of reproductive age who have COVID but aren't pregnant. So that's clear we're the only country in the world that doesn't consider pregnancy to be a high risk situation for severe COVID. And I have had many pregnant women call me and say, I can't get this vaccine. So of course he's taking away vaccine

for people. That's what he wants to do. And then he sits in front of Congress and lies about it. So I want to go to this issue of access, because this is absolutely key. Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts questioned RFK Jr. Will you tell America that all adults and all children over six months of age are eligible to get a COVID booster at their local pharmacy today? Anybody can get the booster. I'm sorry? Anybody can get it. So you're saying that is now the official rule of HHS.

Anybody is eligible to get it. get a booster by just walking into the pharmacy. It's not recommended for healthy people. No, no. If you don't recommend, then the consequence of that in many states is that you can't walk into a pharmacy and get one. It means insurance companies. Don't have to cover the $200 or so cost. As Senator Dr. Cassidy said, you are effectively denying people vaccines. We're not going to recommend a product for which there's no clinical data for that indication,

Is that what I should be doing? What you should be doing is honoring your promise that you made when you were looking to get confirmed in this job. You're going like this. And that is you promised that you would not take away vaccines from anyone who wanted them. You just changed the classification of the COVID vaccine. I'm not taking them away from people, Senator. It takes it away if you can't get it from your pharmacy. Well, most Americans are going to be able to get it from their vaccine.

pharmacy for free, most Americans will be able to get it from their pharmacy free. The question is everyone who wants it. That was your promise. I never promised that I was going to recommend products with which there is no indication. So that was Senator Warren questioning Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Can you clear this up, Dr. Paul Offutt? You also had Senator Cassidy, quoting Eric Erickson, saying his wife has fourth stage lung cancer, and she couldn't go into her drugstore, very immunocompromised, and get the COVID vaccine. I think Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has no idea what's going on on the ground. I mean, it is now very hard to get vaccines for some people because, for example, pharmacies will

always look to the advisory committee for immunization practices for whether or not they're going to allow their pharmacists to give vaccines. The American, the ACIP advisory committee for immunization practice still hasn't weighed in on COVID, so they're waiting. So many, many states now, you can't go to CVS and get a vaccine because we're waiting for the advisory committee for immunization practices to say something. I don't think he has any idea the way this plays out. For example, there were data presented by the CDC when we still had a functioning CDC back in April where Fiona Havers looked at the last year for children. And what she found was that thousands of children were hospitalized, one in five were going

to the intensive care unit, 150 children died, half were previously healthy. Nonetheless, RFK Jr., one month later, stands up and says, we're not recommending this vaccine for healthy young children completely at variance with the data that were presented. And so the woman who presented that, Fiona Havers, left the CDC because she said they're just not paying attention to the data. And now the only vaccine that we have licensed for children less than five is only for high risk groups, even though clearly children who are otherwise healthy and not in a high risk group may be hospitalized. So he's made it more difficult to get vaccines because he's an anti-vaccine activist. Not at any point during that committee hearing, did he ever say anything positive about

vaccines? Not once. I want to go to Fox when Health Secretary Robert Kennedy attacked you, Dr. Paul Offutt, directly. This was in June. Four out of the five members who voted to recommend the rhodovirus vaccine to this schedule had a direct financial interest in that vaccine. One of those individuals voted to add it to the schedule. And then he subsequently sold his vaccine. He owned and developed a guy called Dr. Paul Offutt, sold his share, his patent on the vaccine for $186 million. So he said he won the lottery because of his vote. Can you respond, Dr. Paul Offutt, to Kennedy's accusation against you? Okay, so I was on the Advisory Committee for Immunization Practices between 1998 and 2003.

The vaccine on which I am a co-inventor with Stanley Placken and Fred Clark came up for a vote in 2006. So I had been off that committee for three years. So I didn't vote for the vaccine on which I was a co-in-benter. Secondly, although I am a co-inventor with Stanley Placken and Fred Clark, I am the intellectual property of Children's Hospital, Philadelphia. They, for all intents and purposes, own that vaccine. So they're the ones who sold it out, not me. So I didn't make $186 million on that vaccine. I think I would have known about that.

And can you talk about being removed from, explain what the advisory committee is and what happened to you this week? Right. So the FDA has its own advisory committee called Verpack, vaccine and related biological product advisory committee. I was on that committee for the first term between 2017 and 2021, then another four-year term between 2021 and 2025. And so I was, as far as I knew, I was off the committee. But then one of the senior FDA officials wanted me to have another four-year term because they valued my expertise. So I agreed to do a two-year term. And then I was, you know, I was on the committee again for two years until 2007. But as you do another rotation, there's this pro forma, series of forms you

have to fill out for special government employees, the SGE forms. So I filled out those forms, sent them into the FDA, the FDA approved them, and then it went to HHS, Health and Human Services, where it got stuck, and it wouldn't release those forms out of health and human services. I don't know why. I was never told why. I imagine Robert F. Kennedy Jr. had something to do with that because he doesn't seem to like me very much. So now I'm not on the committee, but I want to say this, unlike the Advisory Committee for Immuneration Practice, where they fired 17 people, all of whom had an expertise and experience, and then replace them with people who didn't. So now we're not getting good advice from the ACIP. And now I think the medical and

scientific community is ignoring the ACIP. That's not true with the FDA committee. There are great people who remain on that committee. I think that committee's advice is to be trusted. I think the fact that I'm not on that committee in no way hurts that committee. I wanted to end in Florida, Dr. Offutt. Florida plans to become the first state to end all vaccine mandates for children to attend school. Of course, everyone's going back to school this week, including for preventable diseases such as measles, mumps, chickenpox, polio, and hepatitis. In a news conference, the state's surgeon general said the vaccine requirement is, quote, wrong and drips with disdain and slavery. The American Medical Association responded to Florida's

plan to end vaccine mandates, saying it would, quote, undermine decades of public health progress. Your response as we wrap up. So measles is the most contagious human infection. When immunization of race fray, measles comes back. There are two things that the public health community has to stop those kinds of outbreaks. One is quarantine of people who are sick. And two is vaccination. And so in the 1970s, even though school immunization requirements had been on the book for decades,

they really weren't enforced. And there were these massive outbreaks in Los Angeles in Alaska, in Detroit. Tens of thousands of children got meat. These was, and about 160 died. So what they did, what those schools did is they mandated vaccines. They enforced those mandates. So you couldn't go back to school until you were vaccinated, and then that stopped those outbreaks.

The Surgeon General, Joseph Lodapel, has now taken away that important tool to stop outbreaks. And I fear for the education of children in Florida, who now will probably start to miss more time for school from school and be less educated. Dr. Paul Offutt, I thank you so much for being with us. of the Vaccine Education Center, physician in the Division of Infectious Diseases at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. When we come back, the Trump administration's threatening to carry out more military attacks in Latin America under the guise of the war on drugs after the U.S. blew up a boat off the coast of Venezuela. President Trump, Defense Secretary Hegseth,

have not provided evidence that it was a drug boat. In fact, some are wondering if it wasn't a boat Carrying migrants. We'll speak with Pulitzer Prize-winning Yale historian Greg Grandin. Back in 20 seconds. And I couldn't see. But when you left me, and oh, how I cried, I missed my water. My way and dry.

John B covering, you don't miss your water at our Democracy Now studio. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org. I'm Amy Goodman. As President Trump is set to sign an executive order to rename the Department of Defense, the Department of War, his administration's threatening to carry out more military attacks in Latin America under the guise of the war on drugs after the U.S. blew up a boat off the coast of Venezuela. You see the bags of drugs all over the boat, and they were hit, obviously, they won't be doing it again. And I think a lot of other people won't be doing it again when they watch that tape. The U.S. has deployed several ships, even a nuclear-powered submarine in the Southern Caribbean. On Thursday, U.S. officials said two Venezuelan military aircraft buzzed a U.S. Navy ship in international waters.

This comes as senior Trump administration officials are refusing to provide proof of their claims that blowing up the boat in the Caribbean earlier this week because it was carrying drugs from Venezuela. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth said he watched a live video feed of the operation that the vessel targeted by the Pentagon was operated by the Trend de Aragua gang. But Hegseth provided no evidence. Venezuela's communication minister claimed the video was a fake made with artificial intelligence. In a New York Times report Thursday, an anonymous former senior federal law enforcement official said the attack was a significant change in U.S. anti-narcotics operations, and that, quote, it was more likely that the vessel was carrying migrants on a human smuggling run.

The official noted, quote, it would be impossible to know for sure, however, given that any evidence of drug smuggling was destroyed in the attack, unquote. Many experts believe the strike was illegal under both international law and domestic law. The attack came as Secretary of State Marco Rubio left for a trip to Latin America, where reporters asked if the Trump administration would seek congressional approval in the future for such strikes, but he didn't respond. Meanwhile, President Nicolas Maduro announced he'd mobilized over 8 million people into the National Bolivarian militia to defend Venezuela against U.S. aggression. The U.S. recently doubled the reward from Maduro's arrest to $50 million and also accused him of being, the head of the Cartel de Los Solis, Rubio was in Ecuador Thursday after going to Mexico.

He designated two more Latin American cartels as foreign terrorist organizations. For more, we're joined by Greg Grandin, history professor at Yale University, Pulitzer Prize-winning author. His new book is America, America, America, a new history of the new world. So you have this boat filled with people, 11 people. talk about what that indicates and what it means that the U.S. just blew it up in international waters. Well, it was pure murder, and it was pure premeditated murder. It was 11 people in a go-fast boat. If you have that kind of boat, you're not, and you're using it for drugs,

you're not going to waste space with filling it with 11 people. And laden it down with 11 people, we're going to want to use that space to carry the drugs. And it was premeditated because, I mean, 11 people. were similarly executed. And it's unclear where. There's no information, no intelligence, somewhere in the Southern Caribbean, somewhere near Venezuela. And it seems like this has been something that's been planned for quite a while. When Trump came into office, he declared, he issued a number of executive auditors that declared cartels to be terrorist organizations and subject to military retaliation. On August 9th, the New York Times reported that he signed

secret order allowing the U.S. to use lethal action against criminal criminals within Latin America. And this seemed like, you know, a very staged, very staged event that was, you know, basically a serial killer looking for a victim. And when this, when this boat left, when they caught this boat, I guess, on satellite, they gave, they gave the execution order. and no bodies have been found. I mean, really, in many ways, it's bringing the logic of Gaza into the Caribbean in terms of unaccountability, impunity, and an expansive notion of national defense to justify what is, in effect,

just extrajudicial killing. And you have Marco Rubio, who is in Mexico, I believe, meeting with Claudia Shanebaum, saying we're going to do it again and again. Yeah, it'll happen again. Who are the countries that are threats? and who are they saying they will not attack? Well, it's mostly Venezuela. And what's interesting about this is that it comes at a very interesting moment

because there is a rift within the Trump administration between those who want to do business with Venezuela. Chevron just received a license to pump oil and sell it in the U.S. And that production just started a few weeks ago. And the first shipments of oil from Venezuela, you know, a variance on the sanctions placed on Venezuela have just gone through. But of course, Marco Rubio has opposed this for quite a while. Marco Rubio is leading the hardliners who basically want to use Latin America

and go hard against Cuba, against Venezuela. He's been obsessed about Venezuela, certainly during the first term. As a senator, he exerted enormous influence on the Trump administration that led to the fiasco of Trump's foreign policy in Venezuela during his. first term. And now he seems to be doing it again. He was in Ecuador. Ecuador is actually a country that does export quite a bit of drugs more than Venezuela into the Pacific. And it's a, it's a militarization of the drug war. And what's interesting about this is that most of Latin America's political class, including centrist and conservatives, former presidents,

like, Anesto, like Cardoso in Brazil and Zadillo in Mexico, want the drug will wound down. And the United States is escalating it and folding it into the war on terror. I was just reading the front page of the New York Times without arrest or trial killing drug suspects, pointing out what happens when you go after alleged drug suspects, back to 2001 Peru, CIA identifying for Peru, a plane saying it was carrying drug smugglers. In fact, it was carrying American missionaries killed. Yeah, yeah.

And then you have Duterte, President Trump praising Duterte, the former president, the father of, the former president of Philippines, now he is sitting in the Hague and he is wanted for crimes against humanity. Yeah. Well, in many ways, Trump, this is exceptional. Without a doubt, this is an escalation and amplification of the United States' right to kill who it wants, when it wants, where it wants. But it is a long line. There is a long history of this. In the post-Cold War period, the U.S. escalated and claimed greater right for self-defense, expanded what they understood to be, the notion of self-defense. When Reagan bombed Libya and, it In 1986, he invoked Article 51 of the UN Charter saying the United States was acting in self-defense because Libya was involved in a bombing of a Berlin disco in which a U.S. Marine was killed. Then you had, of course, the invasion of Panama, which was in 1991, which in many ways kind of echoes placing a bounty on Maduro's head, is treating him a lot like they treated Noriega. And what about your talking about this division within the Trump White House, the role of oil companies like ExxonMobil and Chevron? Yeah, well, you know, in many ways, is to throw back to the 1930s when Royal Dutch Shell supported Paraguay and Standard Oil supported Bolivia and led to the Chaco War.

Today, we have Exxon backing Guyana, British, were formerly British Guyana, and Chevron backing Venezuela. And there's a border dispute. Venezuela, of course, has one of the largest. deposits of crude oil in the world, something like an estimated 300 billion barrels of oil. And a lot of that spills out into what is Guyana, untapped area. Exxon is operating in Guyana, supporting the Guyanese government, and Chevron is operating in Venezuela. So you're seeing the kind of geopolitical tension between these two oil giants playing out

you know, in the Caribbean, in the Southern Caribbean, and U.S. foreign policy kind of folding into it and escalating the conflict. Let's end with Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro speaking during news conference this week. Eight military ships with 1,200 missiles and a nuclear submarine are targeting Venezuela. This is an extravagant, unjustifiable, immoral, an absolutely criminal bloody threat. They have wanted to escalate what they call maximum pressure, which in this case is military. And in response to maximum military pressure,

we have declared maximum preparedness for the defense of Venezuela. Your final comments, Greg Randon. Well, it really is Brinkman's Jet. I mean, Marco Rubio is really pushing the envelope here. I mean, this morning we heard that Maduro sent a giggle of jets to buzz over a U.S. ship. I mean, this is this. In international orders.

Yeah, in international waters. I mean, this really could spill out of control in all sorts of ways. And, of course, Rubio's goal is to basically tank the Chevron deal, ultimately, and topple Maduro, and then Cuba. Interesting that President Trump is signing the executive order today, renaming the Pentagon, the Department of War. Yeah, I know. Greg Grandiniel, University History, Professor Pulitzer Prize-winning author, his latest book, America, America, a new history of the new world. When we come back, we go to Jakarta to look at the crackdown on mass protest. Stay with us.

Malibu Sallu al-Nabye I'm Malianna Khammeda, Habibati d'Arab in Abou'Ambi, al-Aid al-Qaeda in Democriti, Yeah, Rasul Allah, Habibah, Arbi. Malian musician Kaira Arby, performing in Democracy Now Studios. This is Democracy Now, Democracy Now.org. I'm Amy Goodman. We end today's show in Indonesia where at least seven people are dead. Hundreds

more have been injured amidst a crackdown on anti-government protests that erupted in the capital Jakarta a week ago before spreading across Indonesia. The uprising began with protests outside the parliament against salaries and housing allowances for lawmakers that are nearly 10 times the minimum wage in Jakarta. Protests spread nationwide after footage showed a paramilitary police unit using an armored vehicle to ram a group of protesters killing a 21-year-old delivery driver. Protesters have since burned or ransack buses, subways, and homes as several prominent politicians. For more, we go to Jakarta, where we're joined by Andreas Harsono, Indonesia researcher

at Human Rights Watch, which has just published a report headlined Indonesia and crackdown on protesters' arbitrary detention, investigate excessive use of force tear gas against demonstrators. Andreas, welcome to Democracy Now. Just lay out what developed this week. Start with the killing of the delivery driver and the response. It started as a protest outside the parliament building because of the housing work. It was on Monday last week. And then on Thursday night, last week, the protest became much bigger.

64 Labor Union joined the protest, also university student. But that evening, around 7.20, a motorcycle taxi driver, you know, gig work, was hit, ran over by a police-ar-cuda vehicle. He died later in the hospital, but when he was hit, it was captured on video. And the video became viral, spreading all over Indonesia. In the next four days, they were protests, according to the Ministry of HongFest, more than one, 110 cities, repeat 10010, more than 110 cities all over Indonesia. Almost 50 were burning, unfortunately, arson attack. Parliament building, police station were burned down in Makasar, in Kadiri, in Mataram, Lombo Island.

So it was pretty big. And then President Prabu and all party bosses met on Sunday. they agree to cut the housing allowance, the controversial housing allowance. But also, Rabo said that this protest border on treason and terrorism. Police arrested more than 3,000 people. And then there are still protest leaders being arrested until today, charged with either inciting violence or the internet law, inciting people to protest against the government.

That is the latest one. Right now, today, Friday, there are still protests. Yesterday, Thursday, there are still protests. Smaller, but there are still protesting, despite all the heavy presence of the military and the police in Jakarta and many other cities all over Indonesia. What exactly is human rights watch calling for right now, Andreas? Basically, to end the excessive use of force, and human rights was also supported a united nation calling the Indonesian government to have an independent investigation over the use of excessive force over the last one week in Indonesia. I understand that the president, Prabuo Subianto actually ended up going to, though he originally was canceling his trip to China. The significance of this,

and Chinese President Xi Jinping expressing his appreciation and affirming support for Prabhu's governments. It is. It is. He was supposed to join the meeting in Shanghai on economic affairs. He canceled it, but he still joined the military parade in Beijing, meeting President Xi Jinping and other world leaders, including Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong-un of North Korea and many others.

And the significance of this, he clearly felt he could leave Indonesia. And where you think these protests and the crackdown with, what, more than 3,000 people arrested in addition to the deaths? I think he felt confident that he can get the support of the military and the police to handle the political situations in Indonesia. He ordered to take strict measure against riotists, although he also promised freedom of expression peaceful can still be guaranteed in Indonesia. If you could finally comment on the role of the economy, what's happening right now in Indonesia, I mean, this clearly has tapped a cord in Indonesia. and if you see the protests continuing, or will the crackdown suppress?

The underlying issue is economic inequality. Like what you said, the perk given to the parliament makers, sorry, the lawmakers are 10 times from the minimum wage in the United States. That is only for the housing allowance, not to talk about salaries and other allowances. So this is a grave concern. And we are still talking about regular lawmakers. We're not talking about their process or the other elite members of Indonesia. People are angry because their taxes are being increased property taxes, added value taxes.

But at the same time, they see that the political parties are more concerns about their lifestyle and also are more afraid to their party bosses rather than to be accountable to their respective constituencies. is what make people angry. Last but not the least, these motorcycle taxi drivers that symbolize the difficulties that many Indonesian had faced. Most their job or need to supplement their income

by working part-time or sometimes full-time by doing motorcycle work to a lesser degree also driving cars. And there are so many motorcycle taxi drivers all of Indonesia, they are so angry with the death of their clique in Jakarta. Andreas Arsono, I want to thank you so much for being with us,

Indonesia researcher at Human Rights Watch. We'll link to your new report, Indonesia, end crackdown on protesters, arbitrary detention, investigate excessive use of force tear gas against demonstrators. Andreas was joining us from Jakarta, the capital of Indonesia. That does it for our show. Democracy Now is produced with Mike Perkraine, Feltzina, at Guster Masayr, Roads,

Nermin-Shaek, Maria Tarcena, Nicole Salazar, are Sarah Nassar, Turina Nadura, Sam Alcoff, Tamar, a studio, John Hamilton, Robbie Karen, honey Massoud Safwat Nasal. Our guest director is Julie Crosby. Special thanks to Becca Staley, John Randolph, Paul Powell, Mike DePilippa McGill-Negera. I'm Mimi Goodman.

Thanks for joining us.